The Rev. Patricia A. Davenport speaks after being elected bishop of the ELCA Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod during its assembly at Franconia Mennonite Church in Telford, Penn., on May 5, 2018. Photo via SEPAsynod video

In historic votes, Lutherans elect two African-American women bishops

(RNS) — A synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America made history Saturday (May 5) by electing the denomination's first female African-American bishop.  One day later, a synod 900 miles away elected the second.

First, delegates chose the Rev. Patricia A. Davenport for the office of bishop in Southeastern Pennsylvania, a synod that includes Philadelphia. Then on Sunday, delegates voted for the Rev. Viviane Thomas-Breitfeld, a pastor in Beloit, Wis., to become bishop-elect for the South-Central Synod of Wisconsin.

[ad number=“1”]

The votes mark an inclusive step forward for the "most white" of the nation's mainline Protestant denominations, according to Presiding Bishop Elizabeth Eaton.

"We claim, over and over again, what God is calling us to be is a diverse, inclusive, multicultural church," Eaton told RNS from her Chicago office. "We’ve been stuck for over 30 years, and I hope this is the start of a trend where God opens our eyes to see the giftedness of people who are not of European descent."

The Rev. Viviane Thomas-Breitfeld. Photo courtesy of ELCA

With 3.5 million members, the ELCA is the largest Lutheran denomination in the U.S. It encompasses about 9,300 congregations, which are grouped together in 65 regional synods.

According to the Rev. Leah Schade, assistant professor of preaching and worship at Lexington Theological Seminary in Lexington, Ky., the elections signify a poignant moment for the denomination. Schade spent 11 years in the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod and worked with Davenport.

"This is a turning point for the ELCA," Schade said. "It is incredibly important that, at a time when our society needs to see women of color reach the highest levels of leadership, that it’s the church where this is happening."

[ad number=“2”]

Thomas-Breitfeld is an instructor in Christian public leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn., the denomination's largest seminary. Davenport is evangelical mission director and assistant to the bishop in the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod. She spoke about her election in a video released after the vote, saying she is "grateful for the position that God has placed us in, moving out and moving forward into the brand-new things that God has placed before us."

[ad number=“3”]

Editor's note: This story has been changed to reflect the correct number of years Leah Schade spent in the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod.


  1. WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? … “At a time when our SOCIETY needs to see women of color reach the highest levels of leadership, … it’s the CHURCH where this is happening.”

    Here’s what’s wrong with it: Today’s “SOCIETY [and] CHURCH” are ruled not by God & Jesus, and so they both understand and execute “the highest levels of leadership” one way and in common. But the true “CHURCH” is ruled by God & Jesus, and so she understands and executes “the highest levels of leadership” the other way and without compromise. And it’s all because of what THE Christ Jesus of the gospels, epistles and revelation really thinks of leaders per se.

    Don’t you dare call yourselves “leaders” [kathaygaytays in Greek = teacher, guide, instructor], He warns, (1) because “Only One is your Leader, that is, I, the Christ”; and (2) unless “among My people you are merely their servant waiters [diakonos].” To Jesus, you see, the person who truly “leads” [haygeomai] is the one who “slavishly wait on table, serving all and in everything [diakoneo].”

    Which is not exactly the aspiration of these two African-American women bishops of the Lutheran Church, is it now?

    Source: Matthew 23:10-11 and Luke 22:26.

  2. “We claim, over and over again, what God is calling us to be is a diverse, inclusive, multicultural church,” Eaton told RNS from her Chicago office. “We’ve been stuck for over 30 years, and I hope this is the start of a trend where God opens our eyes to see the giftedness of people who are not of European descent.”

    No one should tell Paige Patterson about this. Or any number of self proclaimed experts on these very paiges that god communicates with anyone except in the ways, with the understandings, and with the material approved of by the mens. You wimmins just shut up now.

  3. I’m glad the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is broadening its leadership.

    Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the Lex Lutheran Church.

  4. I think it’s the LLC is being held back by the anachronistic requirement that all bishops have shaved heads and super-maniacal aspirations. So 20th century.

  5. Good for the ELCA. In the Catholic Church, we also need women priests and women bishops. Apostolic succession is not contingent on masculinity. Religious patriarchy is a cultural tragedy that is becoming a doctrinal travesty and a pastoral disgrace.

  6. “Apostolic succession is not contingent on masculinity.”

    Sorry, but this issue was decided once and for all by the Catholic Church two thousand years ago.
    Feel free to become a liberal Lutheran however, as I highly doubt your ability to accurately spot ‘doctrinal travesties’.

  7. “Feel free to become a liberal Lutheran”

    The more people you can run out of the Church, the sooner it will be the “smaller, holier Church” of which you and the other REAL CATHOLICS dream.

  8. So you agree with the statement in this article: “At a time when our SOCIETY needs to see women of color reach the highest levels of leadership, … it’s the CHURCH where this is [or must be] happening.”


  9. It is sad that religious denominations are so often the last institutions to rid themselves of sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. They should play a leadership role to the rest of society.

  10. If someone doesn’t believe in the dogmas of the Church, then yes, they absolutely need to go somewhere else. Then everyone will be happier. Jesus Himself spoke of the necessity of pruning away dead branches.

  11. “Jesus himself spoke of the necessity of pruning away dead branches”

    We can think of all the closed parishes as dead branches. It is as Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build My Church, and it will have hundreds of closed parishes.”

  12. Good for these two individuals to become elected bishops.

    As a historical note, the Lutheran Church is the only mainline American Protestant church that did not come from the British Isles. Up until WW1 in the US most Lutheran Churches used German, Slovakian, Scandinavian or other continental European languages for their services. Congregations served very specific ethnic groups that were only a couple generations at most from Europe. Most Lutherans were considered outside the Anglo Saxon establishment and concentrated in parts of the country with relatively small non-white populations. In the years since WW 2, Lutherans have become part of the mainstream of America. Internationally, Lutherans can be found in many parts of the world outside of Europe.

    Some Lutherans follow an Apostolic Succession similar to the Anglican, Roman and Orthodox Churches other Lutherans interpret the concept differently . Bishops in the American Church have more of a coordinator position. They do not own local churches, dictate which congregations will close or assign clergy. These are congregational matters.

    Finally, not everyone recognizes the Roman Church as 2000 years old but rather a branch of the Church that Christ founded that developed after Constantine .

  13. ELCA doesn’t seem to follow the Bible on other matters, why would they with this?
    Also, if you have racial difficulties in your country, what difference does it make what “colour” these people are?

  14. Luis, have you ever read the Bible?

  15. I think you need to learn what you are talking about. That’s a pretty broad statement.

  16. From what I have learned about the ELCA, their knowledge of the Bible is wanting, at best.
    This is what the Bible says:

    1 Timothy 3 New International Version (NIV)

    Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons

    3 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

    8 In the same way, deacons[b] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

    11 In the same way, the women[c] are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

    12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

  17. Have you ever read the scripture that I cited on this post?

  18. Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

  19. Then why are you endorsing that which Christ has taught otherwise?
    “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever” Hebrews 13:8.
    We are not at liberty to change Christ’s word, or to override that which He taught.

  20. Who is changing Christ’s word, or overriding what he taught?

  21. you wrote: ” In the Catholic Church, we also need women priests and women bishops. Apostolic succession is not contingent on masculinity.” You would not be modelling Christ’s word then.

  22. Why not? He never said that apostolic succession is contingent on masculinity. He did say that the church would do greater things than he had done while working on his temporal mission to the people of Israel, under the Old Law. After the redemption and the resurrection, under the New Law, the church is in charge of mediating all vocations. Are we to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel? Please…

  23. ELCA leadership is all about making social gestures and statements. The Southern California regional synod has elected an openly gay bishop….shame on him, of course, for being both white and male!

    What I do find problematic however, is when efforts to encourage “diversity” result in wholesale rejection of Christian Faith.


    This ELCA congregation in San Francisco rejects the Holy Trinity, the name “Jesus Christ” and “God the Father.” Go figure…!? I personally contacted the ELCA bishop in Northern California, and he made it VERY clear he would be taking NO action to correct the anti-Christian paganism practiced there…such would be counter to ELCA diversity initiatives.

    ELCA claims to be a creedal church…yet it permits paganism…as long as it is practiced by women. I have pretty much given up on ELCA….

  24. What did the scripture I cited say?

  25. Answer my question first. Are we to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel?

  26. ““We claim, over and over again, what God is calling us to be is a diverse, inclusive, multicultural church,”

    I note the good Bishop did not cite the scripture calling Christians to be “diverse, inclusive, multicultural”….Instead, such is the language of anti-Christian cultural progressives.

    Electing individuals because of their race/sex is discrimination. Christians are called to love everyone…not just members of certain groups…. Reverse discrimination is discrimination still.

    Is Affirmative Action now an article of Lutheran doctrine?

    In what way is ELCA social teaching different from anti-Christian cultural progressives?

  27. Women playing ‘dress-up pastor’ again. The ELCA is a non-Lutheran social justice organization … not a church. They do not profess the Lutheran Confessions.

  28. Simple answer … ELCA does not believe the Holy Bible is the word of God.

  29. I think you’re very confused and know nothing about what you think you know.

  30. Yes. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. (Heb 13:8)
    Now please answer my question.

  31. No, he’s spot on with his entire comment.

  32. Sure, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever; but the church is NOT, we are still on the way. Now answer my question: Are we to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel?

  33. Do you know that the church is the body of Christ, Luis?

    1 Corinthians 12:12-31
    Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. read more.
    Romans 12:4-5
    For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.’t

    Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. He doesn’t change

  34. Yes, I know, but the body of Christ is not Christ yet. Now answer my question:
    Are we to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel?

  35. Where does it say the body of Christ is not Christ yet? Will you provide that scripture please.
    Also I answered your question.

  36. Got it. So you said, “Good for the ELCA”, and that’s because, well, just-because. “Why not?”


  37. I applaud these two ELCA synods for their selections. God bless these new bishops in their Christian ministry.

  38. You have not answered my question: Are we to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel? When you answer my question, I will answer yours 🙂

  39. “Sorry, but this issue was decided once and for all by the Catholic Church two thousand years ago.”

    Pure hokum. There was no “Catholic Church” two thousand years ago. There was no ministerial ordination, either, and there were certainly no Christian cultic priests. On the other hand, there were autonomous Christian ecclesiae/assemblies whose worship services were led by unordained liturgical presiders known — depending on local usage — as presbyteroi or episkopoi (not to be confused with our understanding of priests and bishops today).. Their liturgical presidership was based on their community leadership, unlike today when the latter is based on the former. Ministerial ordination came on the scene a hundred or more years later — and cultic priesthood still later as a result of typology.

    Don’t let your religious beliefs dictate historical understanding. As a future pope once acknowledged, “[F]acts, as history teaches, carry more weight than pure doctrine” (Joseph Ratzinger, THEOLOGICAL HIGHLIGHTS OF VATICAN II, Paulist Press/Deus Books, 1966, p. 16).

  40. That’s what these self-described “orthodox” Catholics want. They are governed by FEAR. If they get their way, the Church of Rome will become an incestuous institution. Generational family incest leads to all kinds of health problems. Maybe my former church needs to go the way of the dodo bird.

  41. Tell us where we can find an official comprehensive list of Catholic dogmas.

  42. Thanks for quoting scripture outside the Gospel. Jesus, as you and I know, was a Jew, never a Christian. Churches did not come into existence until after the Resurrection (1 Cor 15:12-19 is instructive here). Jesus ordained nobody to any kind of ministry. He merely commissioned the Twelve (or Eleven) to go forth, preach, and baptize. That’s all. There is no evidence the Twelve (now including Matthias in place of Judas) ever led local churches or ordained anyone to serve as a local church leader. Local assemblies/communities selected or recognized their own religious/worship leaders. Ministries of deacon, presbyter, and bishop came about after the Resurrection. In short, what you’ve quoted from 1 Timothy 3 is man-made, not divinely mandated, disciplinary instruction.

  43. Our fellow blogger has given a “broad statement” about a *broad problem* within the Christian faith.

  44. Are they Christians? Many ELCAs no longer accept Jesus as their Savior.

  45. If the Church is Christ’s body, then Christ is a child molester. Why do you worship a child molester?

  46. What about Phoebe the Deacon? Further, a Bishop in the ELCA is more of a coordinator then a dictator who owns churches, controls church property and assigns clergy. The ELCA believes that the Bible is the inspired word of God. On all sorts of points of the Bible people fight over wine vs grape juice vs bread unleavened only Vs leaven bread vs gluten free in communion. How much water is enough to baptize a person can it be sprinkled and does it have to be running water or still water and on and on?

  47. Why don’t you correct him? You are merely telling people they are wrong and you are right.

  48. Or the winds 12 quarters.

    Or the 12 Olympian gods.

    Or the 12 titans.

    Or the 12 tribes of Israel.

    Or the 12 signs of the zodiac.

    Or the 12 days of Christmas.

    Or the 12 disciples of Mithras.

  49. For Jesus, according to his own words, it was about the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel. Doubt he would make the same selection in today’s world. What do you think?

  50. Paul taught no women. It depends on which translations you look at whether Phoebe is a deacon or not. And Paul thanks her and moves on to setting up the church as the Lord wanted it.

  51. Another silly question that comes from someone who worships satan. Thanks for the reminder that he is still running around.

  52. I was referring more to the persistence of the number 12 in so many religious and mystical things. I don’t think it was an accident.
    But to answer your question: I think the women in Jesus’s life, especially mary Magdalene, were basically erased from his life by the patriarchal natures of his followers. It’s right there, where (I think) Peter says, “Why are you listening to her?”
    She was at one time known as “The apostle to the apostles”.

  53. yawn. Do you ever have any other comments Joe?

  54. I think “12” is a symbol of divine authority. Also a symbol of wholeness, totality. We are basically on the same page.

  55. Enjoy your shrimp on the barbie while in your cool polyester-cotton sundress. Ooops

  56. I beg to differ. Don’t speak of that which you do not know. Leading by example is the guide followed by most Lutheran pastors.

  57. Keep hoping, but you would still be wrong.
    Also, I’ll post some scripture for you to help you with your errors.

    The Conversion of Saul

    9 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. 4 And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

    10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.”

    Barnabas and Saul Sent Off
    Acts 13:13 Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger,[a] Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.”

    The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers

    Acts 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23 with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers[c] who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you[d] with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Galatians 1:1 English Standard Version

    Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

  58. I answered your question. You may not have liked the answer, but it was answered. Now, will you present me with the scripture asserting your point please or is this your means of running away from the question?

  59. No, you did not answer my question. This is my question: Are we to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel? YES or NO? As soon as you answer my question, I will answer yours.

  60. answered already. Now are you going to pester me to answer again, or are you going to answer my question

  61. John, oh wait, that was Marsha lol

  62. Is he the talking snake that I was having coffee with on the back deck yesterday evening?

  63. the one responsible for the thoughts in your head.

  64. sounds good. i am glad to know the talking snake is to blame, and i am not to blame.

  65. What you’ve quoted does not refute what I wrote earlier. What you’ve quoted occurs *after* the Resurrection. Jesus died a Jew; his Apostles were Jews sent off by Jesus to proclaim his teaching (Christianity as a religion would arise later as Jesus’ followers were ejected from synagogues as troublemakers). They were missionaries but not local church leaders. You’ve demonstrated the correctness of my information.

  66. “Do [I] ever have any other comments Joe?”

    Yes, when necessary.

  67. No that’s my bipolar disorder that is responsible for some of the thoughts in my head. I am Satan, Devil, Beelzebub, Lucifer-free, thank you, as is alwayspuzzled. He’s your make-believe nemesis, not ours.

  68. You NEVER answered this simple question: Are we to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel? YES or NO?

  69. You have difficulty with scripture? I answered hon.

  70. I cannot speak for others. I’m not prepared to label other people as “not Christian” without having opportunity to discuss with them.

  71. No, you NEVER answered. Are we to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel? YES or NO?

  72. lol……we wondered, I’ll admit

  73. you do understand that “Christian” means Christ follower.

  74. I suppose you wear a head cover to church and always obyed your father, husband and male bosses too.

  75. yes I did for the longest time. I do try to obey my husband. Do you have a problem with that?

  76. What do you mean you did for the longest time? You should never stop wearing your hat. What do you mean you try to obey?

    I also suppose you honored all male leaders in our government and never voted against an incumbent male politician.

    Finally, since I am a male. You have by this logic no right to question any male.

  77. ELCA no longer subscribes to the Lutheran Confessions. They are in full altar fellowship with other former religious organizations who have kicked out the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a social gospel.

  78. Is Jesus the only way to Heaven MarkE?

  79. The Lutheran Confessions says no women are to be ordained which is backed up by several passages from Scripture. I’ll ask you again MarkE — is Jesus Christ the ONLY way to Heaven?

  80. I wore a head covering for many years while praying and attending assembly, george. I am now married and my husband doesn’t believe it is necessary – as the scripture states it is out of respect for my husband. The scripture also states, as you have missed in your sarcasm, that if there is any contention, we do not hold to this.
    My voting is none of your business.
    Again, in your attempt at sarcasm, you missed something else. I can question anyone I choose. I suggest you learn what you are trying to mock so you don’t make yourself look so silly.

  81. Male clerics have spawned/destroyed Churchianity. Female clerics are now joining in in full force and with a vengeance. I saw all this starting to happen after just 3 1/2 years of being a born-again Christian; so yeah I know what’s going on here.

    You, on the other hand. How do you see yourself in this Unisex Phenomenon of Mutual Destruction? Just a cheerleader, I’ll bet.

  82. Yes. And what has *that* to do with the cost of hogs in Timbuktu?

  83. “Springer” is apparently trying to figure out a response.

  84. “The ELCA is a non-Lutheran social justice organization…”

    Hmmm……….tell that to Jesus whose teaching is found, inter alia, at Matthew 25:35-45.

    Me thinks you don’t know the essence of the Christian faith, including also Matthew 22:36-40.

  85. There are NO passages in the Gospel, which conveys the primary teaching of Jesus himself, that prohibit the ministerial ordination of women.

  86. FYI, “the Gospel of Jesus Christ [is the] social gospel.” See Mt 25:35-45 and 22:36-40.

  87. I asked my priest (well, chaplain who is a priest who works for me) what the thought of this article. I respect is opinion as he has been around awhile (not too far from retirement unless he makes 06). Anyway he said that the increasing diversity of the clergy is a good thing in his eyes but he also pointed out that the Bible is clear (at least to Roman Catholics) that God excluded women from the priesthood. He said I should look at something out of Timothy. I don’t really care if my chaplain priests are women or men but I would question the moral and spiritual advice of any chaplain who was twisting his or her beliefs to benefit himself/herself rather than being faithful to their religious tradition. Loyalty, faithfulness, the ability to put service before self is a key value in military service and necessary to the accomplishment of mission and the safety of personnel. So I have to wonder how much of this is a good thing and how much of this is nothing but self-service.

  88. Your Straw Man’s problem is she thinks Jesus has nothing better to do these days than to “represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel”. What’s up with that? Who thinks like that? Oh I know. That’s because you never knew him, and never will, THIS Christ Jesus of the gospels, epistles and revelation.

  89. We should never presume that we already have full understanding of Christ. What he did in Israel under the Old Law is not literally normative for what the church can do under the New Law/ He gave the church full authority to make decisions after the resurrection. It is silly to assume that, in today’s world, Jesus would select 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel.

  90. But you thought of “Jesus [seeking to] represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel.” In your vast & great spiritual/secular/whatever mind, why do you suppose He’d do something like that in the grand scheme of things? Explain yourself, if you can.

    You really can’t, can you now? Because all you were doing was setting up a Classic Straw Man Argument.

  91. This is what he decided to do 2000 years ago, according to the gospels. Should we assume he would make exactly the same decision today?

  92. Where did you read that? That “2000 years ago, according to the gospels … Jesus [sought to] represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel.”

    Chapters & verses, please, from you-know-where.

    Otherwise, stop saying stuff.

  93. You base your silly, illiterate notion on Matthew 19:25-30 and Luke 22:14, 24-30 that “in today’s world, Jesus would appoint 12 males to represent the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel”?

    Don’t you know how to read? Or are you only good in spinning stories and changing the scripts? Well, then, I’ll just have to read it to you in such a way that makes it impossible for you to remain forever silly and illiterate scripturally.


    “Jesus’ disciples, having left everything and everyone and followed Him instead, were wondering, ‘What will there be for us in the end after all this?’ To which Jesus replied: ‘In The Regeneration Era that is The 1000-Year Kingdom of God on Earth, with the capital city in Jerusalem, I will sit on My glorious throne together with you sitting on 12 thrones, to govern the twelve tribes of Israel. And you will receive many times as much as you had once lost, and will inherit eternal life. For although presently among so many people on earth you are considered the least and last of all, in The Millennial Kingdom you’ll end up as the first among them and above all.’

    “To Jesus’ surprise, it was, of all people, the 12 apostles among His disciples who didn’t get what He was trying to teach them. And so there arose a dispute among the apostles as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest.

    “‘What is this,’ Jesus complained to them. ‘So you wannabe like Gentile Kings who lord it over their people, and whose authority over them makes you The Benefactors of the People? Is that who you wannabe?! On the contrary, I’d rather that the greatest deemed among you become like the youngest with no greatness in anything. And I’d rather that the aspiring leaders among you aspire to wait on tables to service everyone in everything. For am I not presently among you as the one who serves? Yet in the endtimes My Father will grant Me to reign over His Millennial Kingdom on earth. And that’s where you’ll all come in, provided, of course, that from now on you aspire to wait on tables to service everyone in everything. For in the endtimes I will grant you to eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and to sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'”

  94. Very good! So it is clear that, when Jesus chose 12 males to be apostles, he didn’t mean that only males could be successors of the apostles until the end times.

  95. In Matthew 19:25-30 and Luke 22:14, 24-30 Jesus was speaking – to and of – both male and female “disciples”. Only the 12 apostles were men. (Unless Andrew was female or a T in the LGBTQ acronymn; who knows. Just kidding.)

    OK my friend this has been Uber-Fun. Last word is yours, next.

  96. Good conversation, peace be with you!

  97. Methodists, you better bookmark Harry’s post, ’cause when the Council of Bishops gets done mashin’ your potatoes, you gonna be eating off ELCA’s plate !!

  98. Methodists and ELCA are the same — they have full altar fellowship.

Leave a Comment