Best of RNS 2018 News Politics

More than 600 United Methodists file formal church complaint against Jeff Sessions

Jeff Sessions and his wife Mary Sessions leave a church service at St. John’s Episcopal Church across from the White House in Washington, on Jan. 20, 2017. (AP Photo/Pablo Martinez Monsivais)

(RNS) — More than 600 United Methodist clergy and laypeople have signed a formal denominational complaint against fellow United Methodist Attorney General Jeff Sessions, condemning his role in the Trump administration’s “zero-tolerance” policy of separating children from their parents along the U.S.-Mexico border. The charges include child abuse, immorality, racial discrimination and “dissemination of doctrines contrary to the standards of doctrine of the United Methodist Church.”

The complaint was sent on Monday (June 18) afternoon to two churches, one in Alabama and the other in the Washington, D.C., suburbs, said to be affiliated with the chief lawyer of the U.S. government. 

“We, the undersigned laity and clergy of the United Methodist Church, issue a formal complaint against fellow United Methodist layperson Jefferson Beauregard Sessions,” reads the letter, which was provided to Religion News Service.

“While we are reticent to bring a formal complaint against a layperson, Mr. Sessions’ unique combination of tremendous social/political power, his leading role as a Sunday School teacher and former delegate to General Conference, and the severe and ongoing impact of certain of his public, professional actions demand that we, as his siblings in the United Methodist denomination, call for some degree of accountability.”

Dave Wright, an ordained United Methodist elder and chaplain at the University of Puget Sound, is the chief author of the letter. He said he hopes the complaint will result in pastoral conversations between Sessions and church leaders.

“My ideal outcome is that his pastors in church leadership who know him will speak with him, and that in those conversation he will be challenged to think through the level of harm he is causing and have a change of heart — which is about as Methodist as you can get,” Wright said.

Of the four charges against Sessions, the first three — child abuse, immorality and racial discrimination — are in reference to the border policy. The last, regarding the dissemination of doctrines against Methodism, follows Sessions’ attempt to defend separating families during a speech Thursday, in which he rebuked “church friends” who criticized the policy by insisting its enforcement is biblical, citing Romans 13.

United States Attorney General Jeff Sessions speaking about immigration at Parkview Field in Fort Wayne, Indiana, on June 14, 2018. (AP Photo/Fort Wayne Journal Gazette, Mike Moore)

Sessions did not publicly respond to the UMC complaint.

David F. Watson, academic dean and professor of New Testament at United Theological Seminary, called the complaint “an extraordinary development.”

It is “very unusual” for a complaint to be brought against a layperson in the United Methodist Church, Watson said. In recent history, several professors noted, most complaints have been brought against clergy who have performed or entered into same-sex marriages, as the country’s second-largest Protestant denomination has been roiled by debate over the inclusion of its LGBT members.

John Feagins, an ordained UMC elder in the Rio Texas Conference who has taught church polity to pastors, said the letter sets in motion a process that allows a pastor or district superintendent to resolve the issue with the accused pastorally, possibly through a process involving a third-party mediator that United Methodists call “just resolution.” Just resolution focuses on “repairing any harm to people and communities, achieving real accountability by making things right in so far as possible and bringing healing to all the parties,” according to the Book of Discipline.

If no resolution can be reached, that person’s case could go to a committee on investigation or eventually a church trial. In a worst-case scenario, the court could remove him or her from membership, but the denomination’s rulebook also makes allowances for lesser punishments. That could include things like losing the ability to hold office as a delegate or teach Sunday school.

The letter concluded: “We look forward to entering into the just resolution process with Mr. Sessions as we seek to journey with him towards reconciliation and faithful living into the gospel.”

Sessions, who attended the Methodist-affiliated Huntingdon College in Montgomery, Ala., has served as a lay leader and chairman of the administrative board in his family’s church, Ashland Place United Methodist Church in Mobile, Ala.

Feagins noted that ending Sessions’ membership would not be the same as excommunication, which does not exist in the United Methodist Church.

“The goal of a process like this is not the expulsion of someone, but the resolution of conflict — that’s very important, because these things are about a person’s relation to the church,” Feagins said. He said that while he did not sign the letter, he did help author a resolution in his own conference with similar language that asked the attorney general to halt the policy.

No Methodist politician has been similarly charged in a letter of complaint in recent history — at least not “of this nature,” said Kenneth J. Collins, a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary, pointing to the sheer number of people who signed on to the complaint against Sessions. Former President George W. Bush and former first lady Laura Bush are United Methodists, as is former Secretary of State and Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton.

Both Laura Bush and Clinton also have spoken out this week against the border policy defended by the attorney general.

U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions makes a point during his speech at the Western Conservative Summit on June 8, 2018, in Denver. (AP Photo/David Zalubowski)

“I think a lot of people from a variety of theological positions are very concerned about what’s going on regarding the separation of families,” said Watson. “It is really extraordinary for a public official and a layperson to be brought up in this way, but on one level, it doesn’t surprise me given the nature of what’s going on.”

The letter noted that various elements of the United Methodist Church already have spoken out against the policy and Sessions’ defense.

Earlier this month, Bishop Kenneth H. Carter, president of the Council of Bishops, signed on to a statement along with a number of prominent faith leaders urging the Trump administration to stop separating families. The Rev. Susan Henry-Crowe, general secretary of the denomination’s General Board of Church and Society, released a statement Friday calling Sessions’ use of Scripture to justify the practice a “shocking violation of the spirit of the Gospel,” pointing to the Social Principles of the United Methodist Church, and Bishop David Graves, who heads up the attorney general’s home conference, published a statement Monday asking lawmakers to reunite families.

The signers of the complaint against Sessions — who all are clergy and laypeople, but not bishops — said the attorney general’s “actions and the harm he is causing to immigrants, migrants, refugees, and asylees calls for his church to step into a process to directly engage with him as a part of our community.”

“While other individuals and areas of the federal government are implicated in each of these  examples, Mr. Sessions — as a long-term United Methodist in a tremendously powerful, public position — is particularly accountable to us, his church,” it continues. “He is ours, and we are his. As his denomination, we have an ethical obligation to speak boldly when one of our members is engaged in causing significant harm in matters contrary to the Discipline on the global stage.”

The complaint is just the latest in a deluge of faith-based pushback against the policy of separating families along the border.

The president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement last week condemning the policy, and individual bishops have suggested sending a delegation to the border, protesting outside courthouses and instituting “canonical penalties” for Catholics who carry out the policies. That same week, the Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution at its convention calling for immigration reform that maintains “the priority of family unity.”

A slate of other Christian denominations such as the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America have also either issued statements or had their leaders sign on to letters blasting the policy, as have numerous non-Christian groups such as the Islamic Society of North America, the Union for Reform Judaism and Buddhist leaders.

Only United Methodists, however, can threaten the attorney general with spiritual discipline as well as opprobrium. Ted A. Campbell, professor of church history at the Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodist University, said he could think of only one instance when a lay member had been removed from church membership. In the 1970s, he said, a member of a “fundamentalist” church had joined a small United Methodist congregation in Tennessee with the intent to convert its members to his beliefs.

“Apparently, the guy was so obnoxious they couldn’t get rid of him, so they dusted off that part of the Book of Discipline and actually went through the process of a trial of a church member and removed him,” he said.

About the author

Jack Jenkins

Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for RNS based in Washington, covering U.S. Catholics and the intersection of religion and politics.

About the author

Emily McFarlan Miller

Emily McFarlan Miller is a national reporter for RNS based in Chicago. She covers evangelical and mainline Protestant Christianity.

57 Comments

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  • Christians of good conscience are desperate to separate themselves from this evil administration that is tarnishing their good name.

  • Except he’s not; he’s carrying out a brand-new, 100% optional policy crafted and put in place by the Trump administration, which they could cancel at any time. Instead, they lie and pretend that their hands are tied.

  • Whatever did Jeffry mean?

    he Huffington Post reports:

    Attorney General Jeff Sessions rejected claims that the Justice Department’s new zero-tolerance immigration policy echoed Nazi Germany because concentration camps “were trying to keep Jews from leaving.” Sessions spoke with Fox News’ Laura Ingraham on Monday and defended his agency amid a growing outcry over family separations at the U.S.-Mexico border under the new DOJ policy.

    “Well, it’s a real exaggeration, of course. In Nazi Germany, they were keeping the Jews from leaving the country,” Sessions said. “We need to think it through, be rational and thoughtful about it. We want to allow asylum for people who qualify for it, but people who want economic migration for their personal financial benefit, and what they think is their families’ benefit, is not a basis for a claim of asylum.”

    Welll, Jeeeeeze, Jeffry. It’s true! The concentration camps did prevent the Jews from leaving the countries that the Nazis took over. Und arbeit macht frei, doncha know? They were just the Summer Day Camps of No Return.

  • What do you expect from someone who only gets his “news” from the lying liars over at Fox? A third of this once-great nation is choosing to willfully allow itself to be brainwashed full of lies 24 hours a day, and they will swear until the day is long that they’re being told the truth. Lemmings all. Unfortunately for the rest of us, when they go over the cliff they’ll be taking the test of us with them.

  • Christianity is very confusing, if I take all that is in the papers these days. Some don’t care of the President “grabs women by the *&$**%” – as long as he is for or against something else they think it is important to be for or against. It is okay to ostracize LGBT people even though, I think, Jesus sought out those who were ostracized by his own people. It is okay to ignore the pain of Palestinians being kept in virtual ghettos because it could mean that Israel will be reestablished and Jesus will come again sooner. It is okay to take children away from parents at the border and put them in places where they know no one, they are horribly traumatized – all to teach the parents a lesson. What would Jesus say to that one? It isn’t a crime for Catholic bishops to hide information they have a priests who sexually abuse children. Well, it appears that religious leaders of every stripe hide all kinds of abuse of women and children – and somehow it is okay. Supposedly Christian Republicans keep defending a president uses children as hostages to force an issue, regardless of the damage done to those children.

    I don’t think there is a real Christian left in the Republican Party. I am not sure about the Christianity of Dems, either. But all this “Moral Majority” stuff is the Republican’s claim, a horrible public face of Christianity in this country. Who would believe that Christianity is represented by Republicans at all?

  • “”Who would believe that Christianity is represented by Republicans at all?”
    Republicans. Christians who identify as Republicans. republicans that identify as Christians.

  • Why do you support the systematic abuse of children and holding them hostage for political gain?

    Are you a member of ISIS? That is what they do. Not Americans who love this country and what it stands for.

  • Remember when we condemned ISIS and Boko Haram for abducting children, abusing them and holding them for ransom?

    Well, that has officially become the Republican platform.

  • So 600 Methodists can file a church complaint and threats on Sessions? (Gosh, you’d think Sessions was in absolute violation of the Book of Discipline, but these days that depends on which absolute violation you’re referring to.)

    Meanwhile, NONE of the 600 Methodists can figure out how to pressure Congress to close those political immigration-law loopholes that gave us this crisis, loopholes that have created a fully functional open border for illegal immigration?

    The child-separation gig has to be abandoned on ethical grounds, and public outcry will soon erase it. But the illegal immigrants — both the innocents and the killers — now KNOW that America has a ton of loopholes, and no cajones to close them. They know we can’t even finance any real Border Patrol. It’s an open border for them — permanently.

  • Well, I think Republicans represent a certain brand of Republicans. But they do not represent Christianity at all and they really need to stop claiming they do. Or, maybe we need a new Christian sect – the Republican Christian.

    Wait, the doesn’t work either. What is Christian about what Republicans support as civic policy?

  • Of course laws are being broken. Due process has been violated, and people are being locked up without cause.

  • Considering the wish-washy position of the United Methodists on the ongoing slaughter of babies, I have real trouble taking this seriously.

  • Won’t this problem be fully resolved as soon as Mexico sends us the check for a border wall?

  • We have laws on how refugees and asylum-seekers are treated. This new policy violates those rules. Immigration policy is not “we treat trespassers however we feel like it,” despite Trump and his bigoted base’s best efforts to pretend otherwise.

  • This is utterly ridiculous. The United Methodist Church deserves to be excommunicated, as it fails to adhere to its own bylaws concerning church authority and church procedure on homosexuality, completely ignores the views of the African churches.

  • We (more accurately, Obama) never condemned ISIS and Boko Haram for anything.

    As soon as Obama opened his mouth and tried to sound like a president, the leadership of both terror gangs would simply laugh, and call for some more Beer and Little Girls to entertain them. No-Holds-Barred Terrorists know who is serious when they talk, and who ain’t serious.

    Even now, though ISIS has fallen by the wayside, Boko Haram is still in charge. As RNS recently reported, one of the Catholic Cardinals (an African descendant of Neville Chamberlain, apparently) is already calling for, ahem, “negotiations.”

  • I remember when I was told I couldn’t be a real Christian because I voted for gay marriage. Watching the Christian left adopt identical tactics to the moral majority fundamentalists is utterly disgusting.

  • Lying apologist for concentration camps, nobody is saying the policy is illegal. They are saying its immoral and violates the principles of our nation. It is a fundamental moral wrong and repugnant to our system and way of life.

    BTW It was already considered illegal to put criminals, homeless people and illegal combatants in tent cities. Doing it for the children of day laborers and domestic help is not suddenly OK in comparison.

    Why are you supporting actions that ISIS has done?

  • Ok. What specific laws do we have that shows how they are to treated? Post a couple of these laws so I know exactly what laws are supposedly being broken and by whom.

  • What specific laws says that can’t be detained? Give me some direct quotes from the law on this.
    Give me a couple of examples that I can check to see who was detained unlawfully and locked without cause.

  • No laws are being broken as far as I can tell.
    BTW- when a parent breaks the law and is thrown in jail they are separated from their children if they have any. It is against the law for anyone to enter our country illegally. Thus, this could result in the separation of a parent from their children.

  • You’ve just stated Donald Trump’s modus operandi in a nutshell. If something isn’t etched into law he’ll violate every last norm, gentleman’s agreement, convention, and precedent observed by every decent president before him (which is all of them by comparison, including even Shrub Bush.) Just because something hasn’t been etched into law doesn’t mean that doing it is the right thing. Up until now, certain laws were never necessary because no one assumed that an American president would be awful enough to do certain things, so they never became law. Trump and his supporters are like bad children vandalizing the kindergarten classroom – if something isn’t battened down and/or out-of-reach, they’ll utterly destroy it – which is exactly what’s been done to the reputation of this country around the world – something you’ll never hear about on False News.

  • Nope, it won’t. (Wit is a gift, but nobody’s feeling witty along the southern border — and the illegal immigrant moms and kids weren’t feeling witty during the previous Prez either.)

  • We must start with the law. If no law is being broken then no crime has been committed. We know that coming into this country without the proper paper work etc means that a law has been broken.

  • So in other words you’ll simply turn a blind eye to the very real spectacle of young children being separated from their parents and thrust into cages like animals because their parents broke the law. That’s giving tacit approval to such patently immoral behavior. Shame on you! YOU’RE the reason America is going to sh*t.

  • Equal protection of law: 14th Amendment
    Due process for detention: 4th and 5th Amendments
    Cruel and unusual punishment: 8th Amendment

  • See above. There really is no “unregulated zone” for handling noncitizens, where the government can do as it pleases.

  • Your standards for appropriate behavior for our government/nation are abominably low.

    You are trying to excuse, minimize or flat out lie about a policy which is inherently pointless, inhumane and immoral.

    “BTW- when a parent breaks the law and is thrown in jail they are separated from their children if they have any.”

    Dishonest weasel, children of those in jail ARE NEVER PUT IN DETENTION CAMPS EVER! They are placed in the foster care system and looked after by families. The foster care system is designed to eventually reunite families if possible.

    This policy has no appreciable means of reuniting families and is set up to try to deport them separately. Also the policy is designed to prevent families from access to adequate counsel and due process in immigration detention. It is solely to hurt families for its own sake.

    Do you have any sense of decency at all? Have you no shame? Seriously?

  • Wrong question. Why are you supporting GULAGS FOR CHILDREN?

    For someone who once claimed to value life, you are being awfully blase about systematic abuse and imprisonment of children.

    Have you no shame or sense of decency at all? It doesn’t look that way.

  • Way to miss the point (on purpose) How did “we” suddenly become Barack Obama? I guess whataboutism and revisionist history is all some people have when they want to support
    atrocious behavior.

    You seem to be supporting those same measures. How very terrorist of you.

  • You support separation of children from their mothers. Its called abortion. Abortion doesn’t imprison children but kills them.

  • Sometimes children have to be put in detention camps when their parents break the law. The parents knew this could happen and yet did it anyway. That is child abuse. Just like abortion is.

  • Nope. Children are born. But evidently your concern for life does not extend to the born. How unsurprising.

  • So the answer is no. You have no sense of decency whatsoever.

    “Sometimes children have to be put in detention camps when their parents break the law.”

    Bull —-ing Crap, that is never true. Children are always put in foster care under those circumstances. THEY ARE NEVER DETAINED THEMSELVES.

    Besides, the parents are being shuttled through the criminal justice system on charges the government can’t possibly prosecute effectively. They are frivolous and abuse of process.

    You are blaming parents for the policies of our president. Much like an abusive husband tells his wife “she brought it on herself”. Seriously, I could not consider you any lower of a human being right now if I tries.

  • Wrong. They apply to anyone on US soil. The only reason immigration law has less accountability is IT IS NOT CONSIDERED CRIMINAL LAW.

  • Um, no. This is a brand new policy by our own president. There is nobody to blame but him. The policy is inhumane at all levels, regardless of the people involved being illegal aliens.

    This is considered beyond the pale and illegal to do to criminals, the homeless or illegal combatants. Yet you think its OK here.

    If you believe in Hell, you should expect to go there.

  • Um yes. The parents should have known that their breaking of our laws could cause them to be separated from their children and sent back.
    Put the blame on congress. They are the law makers. Trump is just enforcing the law.

  • This article makes it seem like it’s mostly the usual liberal suspects like Mainline Protestantism and Reform Judaism that are condemning the child separation policy. In fact, even the ultra-Orthodox Agudath Israel of America and the modern Orthodox Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America have condemned it. Although the OU gave Sessions a “Justice, justice shall you pursue” award last week and now has had to walk it back.

  • You said, “Remember when..?”

    Well, some of us DO remember when. That’s a big part of the reason why Trump was elected.

  • When felons are parents and are arrested what happens to said children? Tough issue!!!

  • These 600 mean well, I guess, but we need Sessions out of office, not out of the UMC.

  • How about keeping them with their parents? Up until 6 weeks ago, that’s what this administration was doing. It’s what Obama did. It’s what Bush did. Why is it now so essential that we rip families apart?

  • Exactly. Now some parents sincerely do just want to get their kids out, to give them any kind of a future, because significant parts of Mexico and Central America are a total Hell Mess now. But collectively, the illegal immigrants really have figured out how to exploit their own kids as political and media salesmen.

    These days, they understand not only the LEGAL loopholes, but also understand the Libbie MEDIA loopholes too. They know how to play the game now, and they are doing it.

  • We elect Commander-In-Chiefs, not Preachers-In-Chief.

    In a system in which two parties dominate, many elections involve choosing the lesser of two evils.

    As far as “tak(ing) children away from parents …. and put(ting) them in places where they know no one, they are …. traumatized”, the Obama Administration did it and every criminal justice system and social welfare system in the United States has been doing it since the country was founded.

    “It isn’t a crime for Catholic bishops to hide information they have a priests who sexually abuse children” comes from the National (not really) Catholic Reporter.

    It is probably fair to suggest that there are few if any of your kind of “Christian” in the Republican Party, which is probably why they got elected.

  • http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/18/years-backlash-obama-policy-on-illegal-immigrants-children-was-also-slammed-by-critics.html

    “The Obama administration actually expanded the system of detaining families – typically mothers and their minor children – after a huge surge of Central Americans along the U.S.-Mexican border in 2014. The policy resulted in many minors being detained in various locations, in much-criticized conditions, either with their families or by themselves, if they had crossed the border alone.”

    “Videos and photos at the time showed children in tears, many of them still wearing dirty clothes, in detention facilities where they were kept with their families. The conditions — which ranged from six adults and children sleeping crammed on two mattresses laid out on concrete floors, to sick minors not receiving medical care — were documented in many news accounts and reports by human rights groups.”

    “At the time, Obama administration officials argued they had no choice but to implement policies intended to deter families from entering the U.S. illegally. Trump administration officials have made similar arguments.”

    Every day in every US jurisdiction children are separated from their parents and placed with people they do not know, and this has been going on since the country was founded.

    But yet suddenly you’ve found the Nazis.

    Amazing.

  • As the 640 signers of this letter state that Mr. Sessions is disseminating “doctrines contrary to the standards of doctrine of the United Methodist Church,” they’re zeroing on his abuse of Romans 13. As NBC news is reporting today,

    The signees of the letter also criticized Sessions for invoking Romans 13, a Bible verse, to justify the Trump administration policy of breaking up children and parents at the border. They said the “misuse” of that line from Scripture was in “stark contrast to disciplinary commitments to supporting freedom of conscience and resistance to unjust laws.”

    Mr. Sessions’ training as a Sunday School teacher appears never to have included reading St. Augustine, with his statement that has echoed down the ages of Christian history: An unjust law is no law at all — right down to Rev. King, who highlights Augustine’s statement in Letter from Birmingham Jail.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/600-united-methodist-clergy-file-church-complaint-against-attorney-general-n884726

  • http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/18/years-backlash-obama-policy-on-illegal-immigrants-children-was-also-slammed-by-critics.html

    “The Obama administration actually expanded the system of detaining families – typically mothers and their minor children – after a huge surge of Central Americans along the U.S.-Mexican border in 2014. The policy resulted in many minors being detained in various locations, in much-criticized conditions, either with their families or by themselves, if they had crossed the border alone.”

    “Videos and photos at the time showed children in tears, many of them still wearing dirty clothes, in detention facilities where they were kept with their families. The conditions — which ranged from six adults and children sleeping crammed on two mattresses laid out on concrete floors, to sick minors not receiving medical care — were documented in many news accounts and reports by human rights groups.”

    “At the time, Obama administration officials argued they had no choice but to implement policies intended to deter families from entering the U.S. illegally. Trump administration officials have made similar arguments.”

    One of these days you actually have a fact to post.

  • One minute before birth, one minute after birth, same being, same brain, same nervous system.

    One is expendable, the other a child according to you.

    Completely arbitrary, illogical, immoral, and silly.

  • Apparently he or she is familiar with the Flores Consent decree:

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/illegal-immigration-enforcement-separating-kids-at-border/

    “Separation happens only if officials find that the adult is falsely claiming to be the child’s parent, or is a threat to the child, or is put into criminal proceedings.”

    “It’s the last that is operative here. The past practice had been to give a free pass to an adult who is part of a family unit. The new Trump policy is to prosecute all adults. The idea is to send a signal that we are serious about our laws and to create a deterrent against re-entry. (Illegal entry is a misdemeanor, illegal re-entry a felony.)“

    “When a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals. In no circumstance anywhere in the U.S. do the marshals care for the children of people they take into custody. The child is taken into the custody of HHS, who cares for them at temporary shelters.“

    “The criminal proceedings are exceptionally short, assuming there is no aggravating factor such as a prior illegal entity or another crime. The migrants generally plead guilty, and they are then sentenced to time served, typically all in the same day, although practices vary along the border. After this, they are returned to the custody of ICE.“

    “If the adult then wants to go home, in keeping with the expedited order of removal that is issued as a matter of course, it’s relatively simple. The adult should be reunited quickly with his or her child, and the family returned home as a unit. In this scenario, there’s only a very brief separation.“

    “Where it becomes much more of an issue is if the adult files an asylum claim. In that scenario, the adults are almost certainly going to be detained longer than the government is allowed to hold their children.“

    “That’s because of something called the Flores Consent Decree from 1997. It says that unaccompanied children can be held only 20 days. A ruling by the Ninth Circuit extended this 20-day limit to children who come as part of family units. So even if we want to hold a family unit together, we are forbidden from doing so.“

    “The clock ticking on the time the government can hold a child will almost always run out before an asylum claim is settled. The migrant is allowed ten days to seek an attorney, and there may be continuances or other complications.“

    “This creates the choice of either releasing the adults and children together into the country pending the ajudication of the asylum claim, or holding the adults and releasing the children. If the adult is held, HHS places the child with a responsible party in the U.S., ideally a relative (migrants are likely to have family and friends here).“

    “Even if Flores didn’t exist, the government would be very constrained in how many family units it can accommodate. ICE has only about 3,000 family spaces in shelters. It is also limited in its overall space at the border, which is overwhelmed by the ongoing influx. This means that — whatever the Trump administration would prefer to do — many adults are still swiftly released.“

    “Why try to hold adults at all? First of all, if an asylum-seeker is detained, it means that the claim goes through the process much more quickly, a couple of months or less rather than years. Second, if an adult is released while the claim is pending, the chances of ever finding that person again once he or she is in the country are dicey, to say the least. It is tantamount to allowing the migrant to live here, no matter what the merits of the case.”

    And the last sentence describes what the Obama Administration was doing.

    Btw, when the children are worked to death in sub-zero temperatures without being fed, THEN you’ll have gulag.

    At the moment you just sound silly.

  • Define “detention camp”.

    These children are placed with their parents for no more than 20 days (Flores consent decree) and than HHS takes them and puts them in childcare.

    How many attorneys have you funded to provide these folks counsel?

  • He should have supported abortion.

    Then he would have been home free.

    Methodists are not big on St. Augustine.

    While an unjust law is not law at all, there is a question as to who the competent authority is to determine that.

    It is rather amusing to see some Methodists taking what they believe is the “high moral ground” when three decades ago the Methodist Hell in National Lampoon’s famous “Joy of Sects” issue had Methodists in Hell for letting their crabgrass go to seed.

    Oh, and Hillary Clinton is a Methodist.

  • Thanks for reading and responding to my comments, Mr. “Arnzen.”

    You state, “Methodists are not big on St. Augustine.”

    You really haven’t taken much time to educate yourself, have you? Pity.

    See: English, John C. (2005) “References to St. Augustine in the Works of John Wesley,” The Asbury Theological Journal: Vol. 60: No. 2, p. 5-24.

  • So get this – I was in the local grocery store about three weeks ago; and as usual, a cop car was parked out front – which almost always means that a shoplifter got busted. Anyway, inside the stores security office was mommy in handcuffs. Guess who was there for the three kids? City social services.
    It’s how law enforcement works.
    But we’re not talking about the law; are we? We’re talking about future democrat voters.

  • Obama chose not to enforce in his final years.
    FYI – congress made these laws. Trump and Sessions are enforcing them. As we speak, Both parties in both houses are writing narrow legislation to keep families together.

  • Maybe the parents should stay home or turn back; then the kids could stay with mom and dad.

  • Incorrect. The law is on the books. Congress wrote the law. I believe GWB signed the law. Trump and Sessions are enforcing the law. I also believe Obama enforced this law until it became politically advantageous for him not to do so.

  • If you get past your Democrat talking points and read into the stories – the border patrol agents and immigration courts are overwhelmed. Anyone who has worked in the government or in a large institution knows how the system of paperpushers can be overwhelmed. These people work according to the process implemented.

  • Political gain?!!! Oh yeah, this has nothing to do with the democrats not wasting a crisis…
    They see future voters as far as the eye can see.

  • Mr. “Lindsey”, Methodists are not big on John Wesley, either, just as the average Presbyterian only knows John Knox because his name is on the building or in one or more of the books in use, and the average Catholic might think Thomas Aquinas was an Italian painter.

    And, no, I don’t live in a research triangle area with major United Methodist universities represented.

    But your continued interest in trying to gain personal information is noted.

  • What are they saying about the fact that millions of children each year in the United States who are citizens are unwillingly separated from their parents when one or both are incarcerated? It’s very hush hus – it’s only been going on since the country was founded.

  • https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/illegal-immigration-enforcement-separating-kids-at-border/

    “Separation happens only if officials find that the adult is falsely claiming to be the child’s parent, or is a threat to the child, or is put into criminal proceedings.”

    “It’s the last that is operative here. The past practice had been to give a free pass to an adult who is part of a family unit. The new Trump policy is to prosecute all adults. The idea is to send a signal that we are serious about our laws and to create a deterrent against re-entry. (Illegal entry is a misdemeanor, illegal re-entry a felony.)“

    “When a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals. In no circumstance anywhere in the U.S. do the marshals care for the children of people they take into custody. The child is taken into the custody of HHS, who cares for them at temporary shelters.“

    “The criminal proceedings are exceptionally short, assuming there is no aggravating factor such as a prior illegal entity or another crime. The migrants generally plead guilty, and they are then sentenced to time served, typically all in the same day, although practices vary along the border. After this, they are returned to the custody of ICE.“

    “If the adult then wants to go home, in keeping with the expedited order of removal that is issued as a matter of course, it’s relatively simple. The adult should be reunited quickly with his or her child, and the family returned home as a unit. In this scenario, there’s only a very brief separation.“

    “Where it becomes much more of an issue is if the adult files an asylum claim. In that scenario, the adults are almost certainly going to be detained longer than the government is allowed to hold their children.“

    “That’s because of something called the Flores Consent Decree from 1997. It says that unaccompanied children can be held only 20 days. A ruling by the Ninth Circuit extended this 20-day limit to children who come as part of family units. So even if we want to hold a family unit together, we are forbidden from doing so.“

    “The clock ticking on the time the government can hold a child will almost always run out before an asylum claim is settled. The migrant is allowed ten days to seek an attorney, and there may be continuances or other complications.“

    “This creates the choice of either releasing the adults and children together into the country pending the ajudication of the asylum claim, or holding the adults and releasing the children. If the adult is held, HHS places the child with a responsible party in the U.S., ideally a relative (migrants are likely to have family and friends here).“

    “Even if Flores didn’t exist, the government would be very constrained in how many family units it can accommodate. ICE has only about 3,000 family spaces in shelters. It is also limited in its overall space at the border, which is overwhelmed by the ongoing influx. This means that — whatever the Trump administration would prefer to do — many adults are still swiftly released.“

    “Why try to hold adults at all? First of all, if an asylum-seeker is detained, it means that the claim goes through the process much more quickly, a couple of months or less rather than years. Second, if an adult is released while the claim is pending, the chances of ever finding that person again once he or she is in the country are dicey, to say the least. It is tantamount to allowing the migrant to live here, no matter what the merits of the case.”

    And the last sentence describes what the Obama Administration was doing.

  • No, Obama and Bush both had the same set of laws. They used their executive discretion to stop families from being broken up. Trump did the same for months before suddenly deciding upon his current policy of breaking families up. It is entirely his decision. He could end it with a tweet. He hasn’t because he likes it and wants to keep breaking families up.

  • Probably nothing, because everyone understands that when parents get arrested for normal criminal conduct, the kids don’t get locked up.

  • Is social services keeping the children in custody indefinitely? Tent cities with Orwellian posters of Dear Leader? No, they get placed, either with the other parent, family/friends, or foster care at worst — not a gulag.

  • The children in this situation are not “in custody indefinitely”.

    Yes, often foster care is the worst.

  • That’s how political winds blow, today you get an award, tomorrow they walk it back.

    Facts have little or nothing to do with it – wetted fingers and how the wind blows does.

  • Still can’t take a no, can you, Methodists? U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions already told you brethren & sisterns OFF last week, and I quote:

    “I have considered the thoughts of church leaders over … time. And I am sympathetic to them. But I am a law officer. A law officer for a nation-state. A secular nation-state. Not a theocracy. It’s not a church. If we have laws – and I believe we have reasonable immigration laws – they should be enforced. My request to our religious leaders and friends who have criticized the carrying out of our laws: I ask them to speak up forcefully, strongly, to urge anyone who would come here to only come lawfully.”

    Source: Tal Kopan, “Sessions cites Bible to defend immigration policies resulting in family separations”, CNN, June 14, 2018.

  • When you get to run the United Methodist Church, you can arrange things to suit your vision of church. For now it’s their church; they can run it as they see fit.

  • I didn’t know we were keeping immigrant children in definitely. Where exactly did you find that information?

  • This is going to be a real donnybrook of a fight between Trump’s Evangelicals who say that Jesus absolutely would support ripping children out of their mother’s arms and put them in detention camps and cages, and those who say it violates the Christian faith. It will be interesting to see which side wins.

  • The best news this side of heaven for Jeff would to be excommunicated by that Homosexual-loving, God-hating apostate excuse for a “church” that disgraces the Name of Jesus Christ!

    Perhaps he might align himself with a REAL Church!

  • Wow, separating children from their parents and putting them into concentration camps is the only available solution here? Really? That was the only way you could imagine this being done?

    There was nothing wrong with keeping the families together at all. There is also foster care for those who do not have parents available. We have a rather large system for dealing with children THAT NEVER INCLUDED PUTTING THEM IN GULAGS.

  • Sin-loving, homosexual-excusing, apostates standing in judgment of one of their members for enforcing a sound Law?

    How could there ever be any shame in their “discipline”? It would be a badge of honor!

  • How about my friend who killed my neighbor? I can’t believe how our Government tears apart families by putting him behind bars in a dog kennel!

  • MadMoron, wrong again!

    If you hate America and its Laws, move to one of those chit-holes you defend so much!

  • So if we started executing the children, you would be fine with that because that was the price to be paid for their parents actions. Because there is no limit to how much our government can abuse people if they are illegal aliens according to you. Because you are malicious and immoral. As we have all known before.

    I put the blame on the people doing the abuse, who intentionally create such inhumane conditions that international human rights organizations take notice. Only people of low character blame victims for bad actions by others.

  • The united Methodist “church” has “Doctrines and Standards”? Who knew?

    The best kept secret in Christendom!

  • Trump is taking hostages for political benefit. We are putting children in concentration camps and our president is making them a bargaining chip for more repugnant plans. That is pretty damn close to ISIS and many other terrorists and authoritarians.

    You support such repugnant actions and are trying desperately to avoid discussing it directly.

  • Show me the relationship of United Methodism to the teachings of John Wesley, and I will show you the relationship or the earth to a basketball! I would have more proof!

  • Bad analogy alert.

    BTW lying sack of crap, Child Protective Services is not putting children into detention centers and tent cities in the middle of a desert. They are putting children in foster families to care for them. The very opposite of locking them up to be abused by government functionaries.

    The worst goddamn lie coming from the apologists for gulags for children is claiming they are similar to policies already in place when parents are incarcerated. So where are the orphanages and detention centers for those kids? THERE AREN’T ANY!

    Plus being malicious sociopaths, the current administration has not set up any method for reuniting families and the system seems designed to keep them apart even when deportation orders are given. This is repugnant garbage and those who support it are beneath contempt.

  • The equivalent of an abusive husband telling his wife, “You made me beat you. You brought it upon yourself”.

    No Sparky, there are appropriate limits as to how we treat anyone in this country. Even illegal aliens. There is no excuse ever for this.

    Wow, conservatives have really made it known what kind of bigoted and immoral psychopaths they are.

  • How about we deport you instead. They at least appreciated the country and the freedom it represents. You want to act like a Nazi. Fools like you attack rights and laws you know nothing about.

  • Ignorant sack of crap.

    If the parents were criminals, children would be placed in foster care. NOT DETAINED IN GODDAMN CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

    You are repeating a patently stupid, dishonest and malicious line. So tell me Sparky, where are those detention centers and orphanages for the children of the incarcerated you are claiming we always had?

    Get bent!

  • You support gulags for children. You are an immoral scumbag. Pure and simple.

    You bigoted nabobs claim to take “a stand of moral conscience” when attacking the civil liberties of others and denying personhood to women, but you won’t make a stand to defend children from malicious and unnecessary detainment.

    The next time you want to call me names or claim I am some kind of immoral monster, go —- yourself.

  • So you are ignorant of the system that existed before and support gulags for children by default? That is stupid and sociopathic.

    We put the children in foster care. Or as we did before keep families together in immigration detention. Which btw is not jail or prison nor is there an analogue in criminal law here.

  • “The Trump administration isn’t changing the rules that pertain to separating an adult from the child. Those remain the same. Separation happens only if officials find that the adult is falsely claiming to be the child’s parent, or is a threat to the child, or is put into criminal proceedings.

    It’s the last that is operative here. The past practice had been to give a free pass to an adult who is part of a family unit. The new Trump policy is to prosecute all adults. The idea is to send a signal that we are serious about our laws and to create a deterrent against re-entry. (Illegal entry is a misdemeanor, illegal re-entry a felony.)

    When a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals. In no circumstance anywhere in the U.S. do the marshals care for the children of people they take into custody. The child is taken into the custody of HHS, who cares for them at temporary shelters.

    The criminal proceedings are exceptionally short, assuming there is no aggravating factor such as a prior illegal entity or another crime. The migrants generally plead guilty, and they are then sentenced to time served, typically all in the same day, although practices vary along the border. After this, they are returned to the custody of ICE.

    If the adult then wants to go home, in keeping with the expedited order of removal that is issued as a matter of course, it’s relatively simple. The adult should be reunited quickly with his or her child, and the family returned home as a unit. In this scenario, there’s only a very brief separation.” https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/illegal-immigration-enforcement-separating-kids-at-border/#slide-1

    Where it becomes much more of an issue is if the adult files an asylum claim. In that scenario, the adults are almost certainly going to be detained longer than the government is allowed to hold their children.”
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/illegal-immigration-enforcement-separating-kids-at-border/#slide-1

  • Prove that it is wrong or “Un-Christian” to place a mother who commits a crime into jail to await trial!

  • Said the person who made crap up about prior policies and supports PUTTING CHILDREN INTO CONCENTRATION CAMPS. Its too late to deny it. The administration has already sought to take credit for it.

    Why do you make little baby Jesus cry when you tell such a lie?

  • You are avoiding the question and lying again. Separation is happening when a family is placed in immigration detention regardless of any alleged findings of officials. There is no criteria for “false claims of parentage, threats or criminal proceedings here”. It is done as a matter of course.

    Any analogy to children of criminal defendants is wildly dishonest considering WE DO NOT DETAIN THE CHILDREN OF INCARCERATED PARENTS.

  • How about you volunteer to move to El Salvador, and take the place of some of these “refugees?” You can explain to MS-13 animals how you really, really objected to them being called animals.

  • Nothing wrong with that. Happens all the time when a parent commits a crime which is what parents are doing who try to enter this country illegally.

  • We not only claim her, but also Laura Bush, Ken Lay, Bob Edgar, the Cheneys, John Edwards, and Lloyd Doggett too.

  • That is why you are a sociopath. You find no problem with an action that normal sane, decent, moral people would find utterly repugnant for our government to do.

    “Happens all the time when a parent commits a crime ”

    NO
    IT
    DOES
    NOT
    YOU
    ARE
    LYING

    You never heard of CPS?

    Where are the detention centers for the children of incarcerated criminal parents?

  • Really. Been to LA lately? Chicago? Houston? A lot of Mexican flags flying around. They don’t seem to concerned about assimilation.

  • One question for you tough guy – what do the federalies do to you if you cross into Mexico illegally?

  • United Methodist statement on abortion from its statement on Social Principles:

    “Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion.

    “But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother and the unborn child.”

    Applying the same principle to the border:

    “Our belief in the sanctity of the family makes us reluctant to approve separating parents from their children.

    “But we are equally bound to respect the importance of enforcing our laws and the well-being of families.”

  • Uh, no. By law the kids can only be kept in detention after 20 days, they are then turned over to HHS and sent to either relatives or sponsors. The system that existed before was catch & release (the entire family) or if the parents were kept in detention the kids were turned over to HHS, just like now.

  • Both ISIS (and they’re not yet totally gone) and Boko Haram, offer pure Kidnap & Rape & Trafficking operations (on top of their normal Terror & Random Butchery ops.) Boko Haram grabs your little sister, you know you may never see her alive again, plus you know exactly what’s being done to her 10 times a day to soften her up.

    NOTHING in Trump’s child-separation controversy begins to approach what Isis & Boko have done to kids and especially young girls. But you already know this. You read the papers. You’re not stupid. So find more accurate points of comparison already. Work at it.

  • Just to be clear, are you recommending executing the children?

    I put the blame on the parents who brought their children along in the commission of a crime.

  • Yes, the practice of the previous Administration – for the most part – had been to give a
    free pass to an adult who is part of a family unit.

    This put up a bright neon sign pointing south that read “We Do Not Enforce Our Immigration Laws, Welcome Aboard”.

  • Indeed, however these folks signed on as individuals, not as the United Methodist Church.

  • Uh, no, Obama only to some extent “used their executive discretion”.

    He also did this.

    The difficulty was that the Obama Administration engaged in wholesale disregard of the laws, and not just in this.

  • Take a look at the Presbyterian USA, Episcopal Church, and the UCC.

    Prepare to be alone.

  • Finally!

    Somebody took the time to actually determine what the law and the Flores Consent Decree require.

    Alleluia!

  • I love the part about “the importance of enforcing our laws”.

    Perhaps it should amended to “the importance of enforcing the laws we favor”?

  • Our local newspaper had a cartoon that better than Sessions’ reflected in Bible quote the crushing sin of inhumanity of Trump’s edict that is subjecting small children to abuse: “Jesus wept.”

  • Ahh, I see you don’t understand our legal system. Noncitizens have a long list of constitutional rights–practically everything except voting and running for office.

  • As already noted, their constitutional rights (yes, they DO have constitutional rights) are being violated. And those are laws.

  • Oh, are you not following the news? Trump is holding them (and yes, some are being abused) in exchange for legislation and funding for his border wall. So yes, he has taken hostages and is demanding ransom. Again, these are undeniable facts.

  • Haha. That’s so funny. Because brown people have the same human worth as rabid dogs. How humorous.

    Racist piece of garbage.

  • I did a thorough search of all the news after reading your comment and the notion that “some are being abused” appears to be completely groundless.

    So, it was okay with you that the previous Administration blew the laws off to coerce retroactive approval of DACA with some legislation, but following the law rubs your fur the wrong way?

    That seems to be a condemnation of you rather than of the President.

  • You would have been more accurate if you had said . . .

    “I choose to be around Christians on Sunday who frolic in Sincerely Hateful Imaginary Truth, not with apostates that play “church”!”

  • Actually we do detain the children of incarcerated parents until whatever social service agency in the jurisdiction makes arrangements for them.

    That becomes something of a problem if they are not citizens and cannot speak English and have no relatives around.

  • Correct the title of the story!

    “600 Apostates and Homosexuals claim that Jeff Sessions Violated Church Law”

  • Sessions should publicly renounce the UMC and resign his membership. It would be as meaningful as leaving the Little Orphan Annie Fan Club!

  • No they aren’t under the current policy. HHS is not turning the children over to foster care. They are being detained. “Catch and Release” is a fiction. Never existed. You are repeating deliberately ignorant and false party lines here.

  • Nope. You are playing denial games. The head of DHS already got hammered in front of the entire nation trying that. You are too late to the game.

  • More decent than you. They were looking for a better life. You want to put children in cages. You are not a moral person. Never thought you were. This makes it even clearer.

    Family Values Christians support tearing families apart and throwing children into detention.

    But they “value all life”. /s

  • Even better question? Why should we follow the lead of people who do it wrong? No other country has as long and successful a history of immigration. We set the trends, not follow behind. Until now.

    North Korea executes illegal border crossers. I am sure you think they are worth emulating.

  • Bigot much?

    I am sure all those Irish flags on St Patricks Day are a sign Irish and their descendants will never integrate. /s

  • Perhaps you should not make excuses for our president engaging in abuse of children and attacking families. But that would involve having a shred of decency and moral fiber. You have not demonstrated capacity for either.

  • No they aren’t. It’s illegal to detain these kids for over 20 days. Catch & release most certainly existed… Are you deliberately ignorant?

  • Everywhere it says “persons” rather than specifying “citizens.” Check the legal precedents; the 14th Amendment in particular extends constitutional protections to -everyone-, not just citizens.

  • If you are illegal you are breaking the law. Go to jail – do not pass go.
    But again, as the good democrat Christian you are, it’s all about the future votes and power.

  • We all know what Christians *really* when they blather on about “family values” and “protecting life”: they don’t give a damn about babies once they’re born, or if they’re born on the wrong side of the US border, or if they grow up to be gay or trans.

    Alabama is full of child sex traffickers, who elected Jeff Sessions in the firstplace. Writing angry letters isn’t going to sway them in the slightest.

  • Fletch, civil disobedience is a time-honored American tradition–FROM the illegal actions of the Boston Tea Party TO the revolutionary rhetoric of Thomas Jefferson about unjust governments– which is immortalized in Henry David Thoreau’s refusal to pay taxes during the Mexican-American War and essay in response to that war and slavery, “On the Duty of Civil Disobedience.”

    Please take a breath and listen again to messages of radical hospitality in the Bible (both in the Law and the Prophets and lived by Jesus) and the ideals of the American Dream (for refugees, who are persecuted from religious or civil strife).

    You are allowing demagogues (and their propaganda) to inflame your emotions to mislead you to act both un-Christian and un-American. Is that really you?

    It is not much of a stretch to go FROM name-calling TO dehumanizing (Trump spoke of “infecting” our country yesterday, which implies a disease or animal) TO staffing concentration camps TO operating gas chamber showers TO running crematories (attempting to hide the evidence).

    Germany was a well-educated, cultured, Christian and civilized nation, which was sadly and easily misled by Hitler and the Nazis–through a myth of Aryan (white) superiority and blaming Jewish bankers for a poor economy. This myth became intense hatred of (and a failed attempt to exterminate) the Jews (as well as homosexuals, gypsies/migrants, and even the unemployed/both mentally and physically disabled. Does that sound familiar to you today? Is that what you really want for America? (I pray not!)

  • Yes, they are kept indefinitely as of this writing. They are in limbo. Are these the adults you want to see in 10-20 yrs?

  • The LGBT-hating Methodists have no good name to tarnish, anyway. This is all a publicity stunt to stave off boycotts and a mass exodus (too late).

  • Why are any of you reading and commenting on an article on the “Religious News Service” when persons on BOTH sides hurl epithets, ridicule and insults at one another? With the manner in which you speak to one another, you ALL belong in a barroom bathroom, so you can throw urine or feces at one another!

    ONE example is “Fletch,” who in ONE, short comment uses name-calling (“MadMoron”), false accusations (“you hate America and its laws”) and faux-vulgarity (“chit-holes”).

    This uncivil and unchristian dialogue clearly demonstrates why nothing can be resolved and moreover gives evidence of questionable character, which appears to be lacking on BOTH sides–a reflection of Trump by BOTH.

    Just because Trump talks and acts in such a profane and disgusting manner does not give any of you permission to imitate him. Try to speak to one another as your mother and/or father would expect you to speak (please).

  • Well thought out & written. I do tend to doubt that you broke through Fletch’s anger. Shame is that he must feel so aggrieved that he lost a job to an undocumented brown person, that he forgot why he calls himself a christian.

  • Says the champion of morals who says it’s okay to kill the unborn. You have no credibility in that department sir.

  • Christianity is completely arbitrary, illogical, immoral, and silly. You care more about unborn fetuses than actual, real-life people. You are delusional. #ThatsSoChristian

  • To people who support putting children in cages? Why even bother? These people have no conscience whatsoever.

  • When a church sets aside human decency to discriminate against LGBT+ people, what does one call that? Must be an old school closet-case, the way you defend homophobia, sweetie.

  • Someone seems to be not just a little bit obsessed with homosexuality. And with slandering and reviling Christians.

    I wonder why the two things go hand in hand, or in this case, hand in crotch?

  • Are Catholics Christians? are Mormons Christians? Are JW’s Christians?

    I’m asking for a friend.

  • Says the theocrat who believes in forcing women to breed against their will. You have no credibility in any department.

  • How about we turn you around and point you toward a country where concentration camps are OK, like North Korea?

  • You have been demonstratively less moral than anyone with even the slightest shred of decency.

    After all I am not looking for excuses for tearing apart families, detaining children and holding them hostage for political leverage. That is all you. Own it.

  • Actually you do not go to jail. You are an ignoramus who is repeating nonsense.

    Jail is for criminals. People who are entitled to far more due process rights and a right to counsel to defend themselves. Immigration violators do not.

    If we treated immigration violation as an actual crime, there would be fewer deportations. 80% of people who violated immigration laws, who have access to counsel, avoid deportation. Rule of law is not your friend here. This is why the current policy is designed to intimidate families and attack their ability to defend their cases effectively.

    Also if they were treated like criminals, WE WOULD NOT BE DETAINING THE CHILDREN. They would be in the care of foster families.

    ” it’s all about the future votes and power.”

    Yup, Trump is taking hostages in order to get his way. Republicans don’t like the idea of legal immigrants who do not vote for them. Of course if they didn’t appeal to bigotry and discrimination as a party platform, more of them would.

    A good PERSON does not support maliciously tearing apart families and systematically abusing children. Good thing I am not addressing one here.

  • “Watson said. In recent history, several professors noted, most complaints have been brought against clergy who have performed or entered into same-sex marriages, as the country’s second-largest Protestant denomination has been roiled by debate over the inclusion of its LGBT members.”

    It’s no surprise to me that the UMC has entered into a dog-fight with their little whiney-voiced US Attorney General layman over the separation of Mexican illegal-immigrant children from their parents at the US border. Since politically-correct liberal politics replaced the preaching of the transforming power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ several decades ago, this highly political church’s voice is to be heard in just about any left-right conflict these days.

    BTW, MOST of the separation of Mexican illegal-immigrant children from their parents at the US border is happening today because their parents have committed a crime. Incarcerating them along with their parents would be considered cruel and unusual punishment by most of us, because the children have done nothing wrong.At least the children are being well fed and clothed, and they spend six hours a day engaged in educational activities.

  • Don’t worry, Trump is going to sign an executive order sometime soon that will keep the families together. That way all of the illegal future Democrat voters can be sent home together

  • Meanwhile, Trump says he will be “signing something” fairly soon. Won’t stop the mindless Trump-Hater virus, of course. Also won’t persuade Democrats to work with Trump to close those Obama-Bush immigration loopholes and the resultant wide-open border crisis.

    But Trump’s signature will very likely defuse the issue, keeping the kids with parents. AND put Trump back on track for midterms.

    PS…I dare Kathy Griffin or Samantha Bee to show up in this forum. I’ll fry their skimpy chickens good!!

  • OK, you admitted your prior statement was ignorant nonsense and now are trying to backpedal from it. Fair enough. Your concession is duly noted.

    “That way all of the illegal future Democrat voters can be sent home together”

    I am sure you like to pretend that is true. Because lying and bigotry is the default for Republicans these days. But just remember, plenty of immigrant citizens are conservative as heck, but wont vote Republican. Because Republicans love to target them for discrimination and harassment. You foul your own nests.

  • Where does the govt call these housing areas concentration camps? Are the children forced to do hard labor? After all, that is what happens in concentration camps.

  • No, they are not in a limbo which may continue for 10-20 years.

    There are three possible outcomes:

    – the adults are granted asylum, the children are released to them.

    – the adults are convicted of illegal entry and deported. The children are returned to them either before they leave or flown back to them in their country of origin.

    – the adults turn out not to be their parents or die. The children are first vetted with their country of origin as to disposition, and then processed accordingly.

  • Ok. So the amendments of the Constitution applies to anyone in Africa because they also are persons?
    Does it apply to babies in womb since they also are persons?

  • How would you know? Ever been to one? Why would you even care what happens to children in them? You’re just a stupid Christian.

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

    If you’re looking for their own view of themselves, I’d go there.

    If you’re looking for the perspective of Group A of Group B, you should seek Group A’s website.

    The Catholics have definitive statements about their views of others’ religions readily available.

  • Yes of course. It’s people like Parker that are trying to equate what’s happening on the border with a shoplifting arrest.

  • http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/foundational-documents

    “These articles became the basic standards for Christian belief in the Methodist church in North America. First published in the church’s Book of Discipline in 1790, the Articles of Religion have continued to be part of the church’s official statement of belief.”

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church

    “Of the Duty of Christians to the Civil Authority”

    “It is the duty of all Christians, and especially of all Christian ministers, to observe and obey the laws and commands of the governing or supreme authority of the country of which they are citizens or subjects or in which they reside, and to use all laudable means to encourage and enjoin obedience to the powers that be.”

  • http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/foundational-documents

    “These articles became the basic standards for Christian belief in the Methodist church in North America. First published in the church’s Book of Discipline in 1790, the Articles of Religion have continued to be part of the church’s official statement of belief.”

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church

    “Of the Duty of Christians to the Civil Authority”

    “It is the duty of all Christians, and especially of all Christian ministers, to observe and obey the laws and commands of the governing or supreme authority of the country of which they are citizens or subjects or in which they reside, and to use all laudable means to encourage and enjoin obedience to the powers that be.”

    ..

  • 2) I do not believe any Federal Court, or any Federal law, has defined the unborn as “not persons”.

  • Amusing, isn’t it, how the media is filtering the facts and some our local gullibles are buying it hook, line, and sinker?

  • It was a publicity stunt.

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/foundational-documents

    “These articles became the basic standards for Christian belief in the Methodist church in North America. First published in the church’s Book of Discipline in 1790, the Articles of Religion have continued to be part of the church’s official statement of belief.”

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church

    “Of the Duty of Christians to the Civil Authority”

    “It is the duty of all Christians, and especially of all Christian ministers, to observe and obey the laws and commands of the governing or supreme authority of the country of which they are citizens or subjects or in which they reside, and to use all laudable means to encourage and enjoin obedience to the powers that be.”

  • HHS is involved with taking and caring for the kids.

    It would cut down the noise level if you would familiarize yourself with the facts.

  • CHRISTIANS DON’T WANT YOU TO KNOW… that they are responsible for all the world’s problems. Clean up your mess.

  • Here is the short version:

    – Anyone can decide to engage in civil disobedience.

    – When someone decides to do that, he or she makes himself the sole judge of what is right or wrong.

    – What happens next is contingent on a number of things, including whether the civil disobedience is well-received or rejected.

    – If the disobedient is arrested and charged, it is my expectation that she or he will face the consequences like an adult.

    – The Civil War was a massive act of civil disobedience, as was the American Revolution. In the first instance the consequences were awful, in the second only awful for the Royalists and those who died during it.

    Those are the choices and the risks one takes.

    I generally do not recommend civil disobedience to anyone I care about.

    My feelings about Henry David Thoreau are somewhat colored by his speech “A Plea for Captain John Brown” which was an uncompromising defense of Brown and his actions. John Brown was a lunatic who butchered innocent people.

  • I have zero idea what you’re going on about.

    If you provide a clear concise comment, e.g.: “You take position ‘A’. Position ‘A’ is naughty. Either be ashamed or retract it.” so I actually have something to chew on, we can proceed.

    If I get another like the last two, you’ll be blocked and I will never read another of your comments.

    Just to be clear, of course.

  • Save for in extreme situations forcing the separation of children and parents is cruel and when there’s no plan to reunite them it’s barbaric.

  • Civil disobedience is generally nonviolent; dumping tea in the harbor, not paying your poll tax, sitting in the front of the bus, etc. Individuals and groups engage in disruptive activities out of a sense of a higher law, e.g., Divine Law, with a recognition that a penalty will be paid such as a fine or jail. Their civil disobedience intends to change public opinion and, thus, ultimately to change unjust laws.
    (It is not individual lawbreaking.)

    Civil war is a violent rebellion, as is a revolution, generally; so, the soldier recognizes that death is a potential consequence of joining the fight. Both winners and losers suffer the loss of limbs and lives, because they choose violence. (Of course individuals may decide to object conscientiously to their state’s violent means, flee a draft or go AWOL for different reasons.)

  • While civil disobedience generally begins as non-violent, it often goes otherwise rapidly.

    The Civil War began non-violently, and it could have remained non-violent had the North not decided to try to maintain Fort Sumter.

    If you go to jail, lose your job, pay large fines the price of civil disobedience can be high indeed.

    There a very few laws indeed that I would unequivocally find in violation of Divine Law resulting in a requirement for civil disobedience.

  • We separate children from parents every single day in the United States when parents are jailed, during divorces, and during investigations by social service agencies.

    These individuals are actual citizens, and the separations can vary from a few days to permanent.

    It impacts millions of children every year and yet not one peep has been heard.

    Suddenly “it’s barbaric”.

    I know a propaganda campaign when I see one.

  • The children, if they belong to the individuals who brought them, are returned once the individuals who brought them are released.

    You have taken the time to actually familiarize yourself with the law, the relevant court orders, and what was actually happening prior to the President signing an Executive Order today, right?

    If not, this is going to be an extremely short conversation.

  • And how are they supposed to be reunited with their children when they are in different states or have no idea where each other are?

  • Testimony on the hill indicates they have even returned children to locations overseas.

    The government knows where both the parent and the child are.

  • The American public disagrees with you, and it has been waiting three decades for the government to close the border.

    It is going to be closed.

  • According to the news reports today, media folks stuffed the kid whose picture is being circulated as ‘caged’ in the cage for picture-taking.

    The other “cages” are the holding cells common to every local, state, and federal lock-up while the arrested are processed.

    No facts, no conversation.

  • They Might be common for ADULTS, not kids. Seriously, you can’t see the difference? You don’t see the life-long harm this will cause? When these kids grow up, hopefully, they will be damaged with, at least, PTSD. And, it will be YOUR FAULT.

  • The treatment of the children is EXACTLY the same as is done at local, state, and Federal levels when parents are arrested and incarcerated.

    You appear to be a running dog for whatever the media is peddling at any particular moment.

  • But Sessions did “think” and everybody “cares”, trust me. It’s making news to no end.

  • Hmm. Justice would be poor immigrants in Mar-a-lago and this crooked President and his minions in the Supermax.

  • No doubt that Evangelicals like Bob Arnzen and Fletch would be right there throwing children into gas ovens and pronouncing God’s blessings on it. Evangelicals have lost their moral compass.

  • The Church actions remind me of the fall of the Berlin Wall, also started by church activity in East Germany. Trump and Sessions recall the rise of Nazis but this time we will not keep silent! We will speak out and stop them. First they came for the children…

  • We are talking about separating little babies from parents and causing them severe trauma in order to force the Democrats to vote as Trump wnts. we’re talking torture of babies on purpose! Only a monster can approve of this. Nazis rose cause people kept quiet; this time we will speak out against the Nazis and those heartless people who approve of them by calling it the law! Refugees broke no law asking for asylum. Only those who like to hurt children will defend this.

  • Right. Because the population wouldn’t stand for murder. This administration is reckless, but not that reckless. No doubt some will die in captivity but most of that will likely be covered up, just as Southern Sheriffs covered up lynchings.

  • History moves from right to left. Efforts to target people of color, women, LGBTs, the poor, etc. will ultimately fail, but the impulse to try to harm those one hates is powerful.

  • If you think this was ever different at some other time and place I have a bridge to sell you in Laredo.

  • The people who support putting children in concentration camps are beyond reasoning with. This is a sociopathic policy supported by the ignorant, bigoted, hateful and dishonest. Trying to appeal to reason and decency has not been useful.

    “What You Can Do Right Now to Help Immigrant Families Separated at the Border”
    https://www.thecut.com/2018/06/how-to-help-fight-family-separation-policy-immigration-trump.html

    “10 powerful ways we can help immigrant children separated from their parents”
    https://www.mother.ly/news/how-to-help-immigrant-children-separated-from-parents

  • Bob, I addressed this comment earlier to Fletch, who failed to respond; but I now send it to you after reading your comments to others on this article and other articles on the Religious News Service. You are a know-it-all, rendering you a very dangerous human being with no humility. Easily you could be a member (probably a leader) of the SS or Gestapo or Commandant of a concentration camp, who would commit atrocities during the day, listen to Wagner in the evening and then read “Mein Kampf” in bed.
    You are so smart and so educated that you can feel justified in killing “subhumans,” who don’t deserve living in the Fatherland with you:

    Germany was a well-educated, cultured, Christian and civilized nation, which was sadly and easily misled by Hitler and the Nazis–through a myth of Aryan (white) superiority and blaming Jewish bankers for a poor economy. This myth became intense hatred of (and a failed attempt to exterminate) the Jews (as well as homosexuals, gypsies/migrants, and even the unemployed/both mentally and physically disabled. Does that sound familiar to you today? Is that what you really want for America? (I pray not! Sadly, you already defend a narcissistic bully, who lies daily, so the other activities are possible.)

  • Mr. Arnzen, I addressed this comment earlier to Fletch, who failed to respond; but I now send it to you after reading your comments to others on this article and other articles on the Religious News Service. You are a know-it-all, rendering you a very dangerous human being with no humility. Easily you could be a member (probably a leader) of the SS or Gestapo or Commandant of a concentration camp, who would commit atrocities during the day, listen to Wagner in the evening and then read “Mein Kampf” in bed.
    You are so smart and so educated that you can feel justified in killing “subhumans,” who don’t deserve living in the Fatherland with you:
    Germany was a well-educated, cultured, Christian and civilized nation, which was sadly and easily misled by Hitler and the Nazis–through a myth of Aryan (white) superiority and blaming Jewish bankers for a poor economy. This myth became intense hatred of (and a failed attempt to exterminate) the Jews (as well as homosexuals, gypsies/migrants, and even the unemployed/both mentally and physically disabled. Does that sound familiar to you today? Is that what you really want for America? (I pray not! Sadly, you already defend a narcissistic bully, who lies daily, so the other activities are possible.)

  • There are some evil people in America, and many of them are Evangelicals. They’re mocking and laughing at the crying children. They’re coldhearted bastards. CNN was interviewing some of them, and to a person they said “I don’t care”. Evangelicals sold themselves to the most evil man to ever occupy the White House in exchange for political power. Evangelicals own the policy of putting children in concentration camps and cages. You can read their defense of it below.

    By the way, Trump’s so called “reversal” today does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the children already in the concentration camps and cages. They will not be set free. His fake order only applies to future people crossing the border. So the hell-raising will continue until the children are set free from their cages and concentration camps.

  • Clint, you are a know-it-all, rendering you a very dangerous human being with no humility.

    Your favorite pose is with your hands on your hips chastising others for what you perceive are their failings, but at the same time implying that you are well-educated, cultured, and Christian.

    It’s a passive-aggressive form of bullying usually more commonly found in women in their 80s who spent a half century teaching first grade.

  • Not given. However, in our legal system, a “person” is

    In general usage, a human being; by statute, however, the term can include firms, labor organizations, partnerships, associations, corporations, legal representatives, trustees, trustees in Bankruptcy, or receivers.

    (Let me guess: you want to argue about abortion now…..)

  • So, you’re trying to shift the topic to abortion now? After all, I already schooled you some time back on the constitutional rights of noncitizens…..

  • The use of the phrase “concentration camps” makes it clear you’re spouting propaganda, not facts.

  • That’s pretty ironic coming from you, BobbyJo, since you are spouting propaganda in most of your posts.

  • No, Parker12, the lack of credibility here is all yours, when you try to slide in your favorite issue with your favorite misleading terms.

    Frankly, Spuddie nailed you and our unpresident.

  • WHAM! BLAM! Nasty and typically Christian BobbyJo Arnzen-Carioca takes yet another vicious swipe at a poster.

  • The fact that you don’t care about children being imprisoned and tortured makes it clear you’re spouting propaganda, not facts. #ThatsSoChristian

  • You appear to be a running dog for whatever your fake religion is peddling at any particular moment.

  • I’m looking for consistency. Without consistency you don’t have a good argument.
    So the Constitution doesn’t define what a person is. Right?

  • The Snowflake blocked you after a few comments, but he won’t block me after months.
    No fair!!!!
    Psssst. How much did you pay him?

  • Oh, I laugh at him all the time. On occasion, I’ll even sneer in his general direction. But he won’t block me, despite numerous requests. I suspect I know why, and I’m sure at some point, he will ask me. Maybe I will tell him. On the other hand, maybe I won’t.

  • hmmmm, maybe you should try going to the Methodist Church.

    Their members seem to upset him.

  • Anyone who is liberal, or even remotely so, upsets him. Anyone who is not him and who doesn’t agree with him 100% upsets him.
    Click on his name, take a look at his comment history, and you’ll get a good idea of who he is. His last lines make him a legend in his own mind. I mixed all of his denigrations into one long phrase about 40 pages long, and plugged it into Google Translate. Translating from the Bobese, it got summarized into three words “big poopy head”.
    He loves calling people “big poopy heads”, though he also loves it that no matter how many times he insults and denigrates other people, he never actually uses those words. That’s his defense!!!!

  • hmmmm.

    Consider praying on it.

    If no good answer comes to you assume he’s a Russian inform him of this and block him.

  • But prayer is what you do when you don’t want to do anything, but don’t want to admit that you don’t want to do anything.
    And funny you should mention the Russian bot thing. It’s quite possible, and I had floated that possibility a few weeks ago. But no, I’m pretty sure he’s as American as Spam or mock apple pie. He certainly has some intelligence.
    I’ve never blocked anyone, not even the vicious anti-semites, vicious anti-gays, and even though I am an atheist, the vicious anti-Christians who call themselves True Christians who post on these very pages. I have flagged a few of the Nazis who post the worst anti-Semitic stuff here, but even that has probably happened only three or four times.
    I’m a great believer in free speech, even for those who pollute the pages of RNS. I want everyone to see that viciousness, and know it for what it is. I have long believed that there are lots of people who read, but rarely post, and those people are often people that still have open minds.
    I’m pretty sure that every time a viciously anti-gay person posts some of his viciously antigay material, a little gay angel gets his or her rainbow wings. and THAT gets those anti panties into a thoroughly uncomfortable twist.

  • Prayer is a lot more than just something worthless politicians offer when they don’t want to do anything. In some contexts it’s literally a synonym for meditation.

    As for the Russian connection…..if they use whataboutism I see no reason to assume they’re not.

  • Says BobbyJoJack Arnzen-Carioca, who regularly does rude personal attacks on other posters.

  • A fake news victim and enjoying it, are you now.

    FYI: According to Gianluca Mezzofiore, “The truth behind this photo of an ‘immigrant child’ crying inside a cage”, CNN, June 18, 2018:

    (1) “Journalist and filmmaker Jose Antonio Vargas posted the photo last week on Twitter … [and] widely shared on social media, … of a little boy crying in a cage … as … byproduct of the White House’s ‘zero tolerance’ immigration policy, which separates undocumented parents and kids at the border … [It] is being completely taken out of context [however] — and does not show what it is purported to show.” Such as:

    (2) “The picture was actually taken during a June 10 [2018] protest against White House immigration policies at Dallas City Hall … organized by the Texas chapter of the Brown Berets de Cemanahuac … Leroy Pena, head of the Brown Berets’ Dallas-Fort Worth chapter, took [the picture and one other like it, then] posted them on Facebook … The post was later deleted … Pena expressed frustration at how the photo was taken out of context … [Even] Vargas … realized the photo of the boy in the cage was misleading”!

    (3) “The toddler was following his older sibling, who took part in the Dallas cage protest along with other teens … ‘He got confused on how to get out (of the cage) and cried when he saw his mother. He was only in there about 30 seconds’ … [then got] outside the cage as activists h[e]ld signs urging the White House to ‘stop separating families'”!

    (4) “It is not the first time that alarming photos of caged children have been wrongly attributed to Trump administration policies. A photograph showing two immigrant children sleeping in a fenced enclosure, which sparked outrage when it surfaced last month, turned out to have been taken in an Arizona detention facility in 2014.”

  • Wow, you are a straight-up Pizzagater, aren’t you? You’ll go to any lengths to deny taking responsibility.

  • Including yours, yes. But as I noted (and you’ve ignored), we have numerous ruling defining the term since then. And they are 100% constitutional, since they come from the courts.

  • We already know that the courts are wong. We saw this with abortion rulings and homosexual “marriage”.

  • … ahh, there we are. I knew we’d wind up at you declaring that the courts don’t understand the TRUE Constitution the way you do. Good luck with that argument. In the meantime, non-citizens DO have constitutional rights…. according to the only authority that matters.

  • Just pointing out the obvious. So we are to believe that the founders of the Constitution intended the amendments applied to everyone on the planet yet does not apply to human beings in the womb. Got it.

  • No need to pretend anything. The founders never mentioned fetuses at all. By the way, what does that have to do with the constitutional rights of noncitizens?

  • Did the Methodists do the same thing in 2014 and 2015 with Obama when he packed the Mexican kids like sardines in cages wrapped in shiny silver blankets? I’ll assume they didn’t want to be called racists.

  • Where you equally offended in 2014 and 2015 when Obama separated 10’s of thousands of Mexican children from their parents?

  • Return the favor, then. I did do you a favor by debunking Vargas’ Cagegate using that CNN article, so it’s only fair that you now debunk Pizzagate for me using any mainstream media source of your choice. Much appreciated, but don’t keep me waiting.

  • Already asked and answered. Get a time machine and find out.

    You obviously had no problems about it back then and you certainly don’t right now. So that makes you presently a scumbag, twice over.

    Seriously, that canned POS argument makes you guys look worse than usual.

  • if you know anything about biology, a human fetus comes from a human mama ovum and a human daddy sperm, thus a human fetus is an unborn human, not matter what YOU choose to call “it”….at no time in your embryological development were you NOT human….the founders didn’t have to mention fetuses because they were smart enough to know they are human.

  • I said, Debunk, ‘yo. This ain’t it: “Reports are entirely baseless …. but that doesn’t matter.” Because, precisely it does.

    Here’s Oxford University’s Dictionary and Cambridge’s, respectively, for debunk:

    “Debunk” means “Expose the falseness or hollowness of (an idea or belief)”.

    “Debunk” means “To show that something is less important, less good, or less true than it has been made to appear”.

    So, what are you waiting for? Do the debunking, complete with reliable/verifiable sources. Give it to me. Otherwise the World Cup score is (drum roll, please):

    Christian 1 : 0 Atheist

  • You are insane. There is no basement in Comet Ping Pong, and also, virgins don’t give birth. Let me know when you find that basement.

    Don’t keep me waiting.

  • Yes, that’s a popular opinion, but it’s not shared by anything written by the founders.

    And if you want to play the “Founders knew it but didn’t bother to mention it because it’s just so obvious” game, you won’t like where it leads.

  • I guess you had second thoughts about blocking me. Good for you for keeping an open mind & knowing when you’re wrong.
    Looking forward to future liberal communications.

  • It is the duty of any pastor and church to show the sinners the error or their ways and bring them back to a righteous path. Good for the Methodists.

  • I’ll assume you’re unaware that Obama is not a Methodist. I’ll also assume you think he’s a secret gay Kenyan Muslim.

  • They should have investigated the facts first before engaging in such a myopic exercise.

  • Until AG Sessions hit the politically correct sh-t list, the facts supported the award, and they still do.

  • Funny how intolerant the tolerant left REALLY is…chasing women out of restaurants, etc.

    Anyone with a higher than room temperature IQ have known about the left’s hypocricy for a long while.

    The Maxine Waters types however continue to breath their own exhaust and it shows.

  • Since you like your Aunt Charlotte fail to debunk neither Cagegate nor Pizzagate, the World Cup score stands as:

    Christian 1:0 Jew

  • Apparently you can’t read, since the link I gave you debunks Pizzagate completely. This isn’t Christian vs. Jew, it’s conspiracy theorist/Russian plant vs. rational people.

  • Breaking News … Christian 2 : 0 Jew

    I gave your Antif… I mean Aunty Charlotte the technical definition of debunking. This ain’t no debunking. How is that a debunking?

    (1) “Podesta brothers were famous in Washington circles for their Italian cooking and big salon and fund-raising dinners, often cooked by their mother.”

    (2) “John and Tony Podesta … were in Portugal at the time of the kidnapping”.

    (3) “#PodestaEmails and … many ‘coincidences’ [are] tied”.

  • My being Jewish has absolutely zero to do with this discussion. You seem obsessed with it. We have a word for that.
    “Many coincidences”? Yeah that’s typical from a conspiracy theorist like yourself. Tell us more about how the NYPD planned 9/11 so they’d all get cancer and increase their disability benefits.
    The evidence should be addressed objectively. Whether it meets your level of satisfaction to be “debunked” — an impossible standard as you’d never be satisfied — is absolutely irrelevant to me.

  • You should be proud.

    Sarah Huckabee Sanders was not judged by the color of her skin, but by the content of her character.

  • The left is all about letting mothers murder the children growing naturally within, but they try to claim the moral high ground.

    Can they dumber than they are hypocritical?

    I think they can.

  • You are all about pretending a woman is your personal property the minute she becomes pregnant. If you respected life and people you would know her body is hers to control alone.

    There is no moral position in the anti-abortion position. It is all about pretending to care about life while demonizing and attacking people for personal aggrandizement.

    Why should you care? Your concern for life only extends to those gestating. Not women who are born.

  • Actually, it’s a woman who thinks the child is her personal property, to discard at will.

    A child isn’t part of a woman.

  • For all intents and purposes. It is. It exists in her body and by her will. Until it is born, nobody else has any say in the matter but her. It is why you have to try to attack women in general and treat them as property or non-entitites. Because you rage against the fundamental fact that her body always means her choice. Never those of lippy hostile immoral types like you.

    BTW A child is born and is a person. A fetus is not. Unless you can separate her from the fetus physically, you are SOL. Biology is not your friend. So sorry for you.

  • No, it fails the logic test as “part of”.

    The baby growing within a woman is not part of a woman.

    “Part of” works this way….my fingers are part of my hand, and my hands are part of my body, therefore my fingers are part of my body.

    A baby’s fingers are part of its body, but not part of a woman’s body, otherwise, she’d have twenty fingers and toes and two heads, and also in 50% of the cases dual sexed!

    But I waste my time reminding a poorly educated person about simple logic.

  • Nope. You can’t debate your way out of the biology of pregnancy. Especially with canned arguments which came out of an echo chamber

    It exists in her body alone and her will is the only reason a fetus exists. You can’t separate them until birth.
    So nobody has to care what you think about its existence here. You are not part of the equation here. It’s just her. A person with their own autonomous existence, life, choices and rights. Something a fetus never has.

    Therefore, pretending a fetus a person involves pretending it’s mother is not. That is not logical, immoral and just factually wrong.

  • One would think that anyone who may be interested in reading news about “religion” would at least be civil. I find that DJT has set a poor example and lowered standards in public discourse whether online or face-to-face. As David Brooks, the conservative columnist with the “NYTimes,” has said and written, it falls to all of us to demonstrate the good character of our great nation’s Founding Fathers (and Mothers) in this embarrassing period of incivility.

  • …send them all back.. match up the children with their parents-tell them to go to a country that’s not getting ready to collapse-America doesn’t exist anymore and everybody has a gun.

  • Liberals feign compassion for illegal children. Then Justice Kennedy retires, and they are horrified over the possibility that their own unwanted children might, once again, be protected from them, and allowed to live.

  • Exodus 1 provided the first biblical example of civil disobedience when
    Hebrew midwives ignored Pharoah by allowing the male babies to live. Then they lied to Pharoah that they were not present at the births since the Hebrew mothers were so strong.

  • Why do staunch anti-abortion activists lose their passion for children as soon as the babes pass through the birth canal?

  • Reporting from the border, in many interviews with lawyers who represent immigrants or social workers with charitable organizations, reveals that the bridges were blocked by the border patrol, who would not provide the documents for a family to “fill out the proper paperwork.” (Is THAT legal?)

    Of course no, international law requires that assylum seekers receive a hearing to determine the legitimacy of their claims–besides humanitarians and many religious traditions that require welcoming strangers!

    The border patrol’s excuse to block the bridges for entry by lawful asylum seekers, which they claimed to be the lack of capacity to hold them for their hearing, soon became a sham. Why did capacity to hold them suddenly exist when they had turned around on the bridge–after being refused entry–and crossed the border at another point? Then, with the excuse, which the U.S. Border Patrol created, the asylum seekers’ children were snatched from their arms as they’re arrested.

    Do you not see the hypocrisy, which representatives of your government clearly displayed?

    Try this as a potential example:

    If you heard a siren behind you and knew that for the safety of everyone, you should pull over to the side of the road. You’re on a 4-lane, undivided road in the left lane, but the car in the right lane–beside you–is NOT pulling over to the side of the road. So, you speed up to go ahead of that car in the right

  • We don’t. We expect their parents to take responsibility for their actions; mostly by working, paying taxes, being a good citizen, etc.

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