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Questioning real-world learning at ultra-Orthodox schools

In this July 18, 2018, photo, Pesach Eisen poses in front of a yeshiva he attended as a child in the Borough Park neighborhood in Brooklyn, N.Y. Eisen, now 32, left his Orthodox community in his late teens. Complaints that schools like Eisen's run by New York's strictly observant Hasidic Jews barely teach English, math, science or social studies have fueled a movement to demand stricter oversight by state and local educational authorities. (AP Photo/Mark Lennihan)

NEW YORK (AP) — At the ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools Pesach Eisen attended in Brooklyn, most of the day was spent studying religious texts with classes taught in Yiddish. One class at the end of the day was spent on secular subjects, including English and math, enough to be “able to go to the food stamps office and apply.”

“Everything was super basic. … Nobody took it seriously, so even if you were a studious person you had no chance,” said the now-32-year-old Eisen, who had to take remedial classes and study intensively on his own before he succeeded in graduating from college in 2016.

Complaints that schools like Eisen’s run by New York’s strictly observant Hasidic Jews barely teach English, math, science or social studies have fueled a movement to demand stricter oversight by state and local educational authorities. Critics plan to file a lawsuit on Monday (July 23) in federal court, seeking to stop the state from enforcing legislation that was intended to shield the schools, called yeshivas, from some government oversight.

“When we grew up there was no such thing as big aspirations — ‘I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer, I want to be a businessman,'” said Eisen, who no longer practices the ultra-Orthodox faith.

“It’s, ‘I want to be a rabbi. That’s the only thing.'”

Defenders of the yeshivas say parents have the right to send their children to schools that provide a Jewish education consistent with their beliefs and traditions.

“We specifically for generations have chosen this kind of education for our children,” says Ari Goldberg, who has seven children attending Hasidic yeshivas in Brooklyn. “This is what we want.

“Why should it be taken away?”

The yeshiva backers also say critics err by just counting the minutes of a school day spent on secular studies.

“The problem solving, the literacy, the critical thinking, all that is in Judaica studies as well,” said Yitzchok Kaufman, a Brooklyn yeshiva alumnus and parent.

The planned lawsuit by Young Advocates for Fair Education, or YAFFED, which is pushing for improved secular education in the ultra-Orthodox schools, names Democratic Gov. Andrew Cuomo and the state Department of Education’s top two officials as defendants.

Department of Education spokeswoman Emily DeSantis said the department is working on updating its guidance on equivalency of instruction at the yeshivas.

There are about 275 Orthodox Jewish yeshivas in New York state, but many are modern Orthodox schools that provide a full secular curriculum along with religious studies.

YAFFED founder Naftuli Moster said the Hasidic yeshivas where secular education is generally given short shrift number 83 in New York City and 38 in other parts of the state. An estimated 115,000 children attend the schools.

For boys in the Hasidic yeshiva system, the emphasis is on studying religious texts. Classes are taught in Yiddish, the language spoken in most Hasidic homes. Secular subjects are relegated to the end of the long school day, when the boys are restless and inattentive, critics say.

Once the boys reach high school, they don’t study secular subjects, devoting their entire day to the Torah, Talmud and other Jewish texts.

Hasidic girls can’t study Talmud and therefore learn more English, math and social studies than the boys do, though taboo subjects such as evolution and sex education are typically omitted.

“They erased anything about dinosaurs,” said Shavy Rosenberg, who attended Hasidic schools for girls. “Anything more than 5,000 years old was erased.”

Although the schools are private, they are not entirely free of government oversight because of a state law requiring that instruction in nonpublic schools be substantially equivalent to the instruction given at the local public school.

YAFFED was founded in 2012 with the aim of pressuring New York City and New York state to enforce the substantial equivalence standard at yeshivas. But that effort was dealt a blow last spring when a state senator who represents a heavily Orthodox Brooklyn district threatened to hold up the state’s $168 billion budget unless the state agreed not to enforce the substantial equivalence rule in the same way at ultra-Orthodox yeshivas as it’s enforced at other schools.

The legislation pushed by Sen. Simcha Felder, a Democrat who caucuses with the Republicans in the state Senate, singled out schools with long days, bilingual programs and nonprofit status — in effect, yeshivas — and put the state Department of Education, not local school districts, in charge of determining what curriculum rules those schools must follow.

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  • An interesting conflict between the right of parents to indoctrinate their children into the narrowmindedness of the parents on one hand, and on the other hand the right of children to have access to a full range of opportunities when they reach adulthood.

  • Simple solution, Don’t take state money. If you take state money, you have to take the state’s oversight.

  • Since “narrowmindedness” is in the eye of the beholder, and the right to educate one’s children is fundamental in American law, there is no conflict.

  • At a minimum, minors should be taught reading and “writing,” mathematics, history, civics, and economics. Beyond that I have no problem at all at all with parents inculcating their own cultural values in their children, but those fundamentals need to be there. And it definitely sounds like in this case they aren’t.

    “But that effort was dealt a blow last spring when a state senator who represents a heavily Orthodox Brooklyn district threatened to hold up the state’s $168 billion budget unless the state agreed not to enforce the substantial equivalence rule in the same way at ultra-Orthodox yeshivas as it’s enforced at other schools.”

    Here was the point where the New York legislature betrayed its constituents. One standard for everyone, whether it be for Asians applying to universities, or religious schools.

  • Too simple for a lot of government-haters and religious conservatives. They want it both ways.

  • I suspect that the balance is weighed in the view of what a child is – a possession or a human being with individuality, potential and independent value.

  • Unless the state has a voucher program public funds wouldn’t be directed at private schools like yeshivas anyway. But as the article states even if you don’t take state/federal money there are minimum standards for educational outcomes. Even homeschooled kids have to be able to function at state-minimum levels.

  • There’s conflict between “narrowmindedness” though and inability to function at a minimal level. Lots of homeschooled and Christian school kids aren’t taught evolution, or at least taught creationism alongside it. There isn’t a mandate to teach evolution. But educated children should be able to function in the society in which they live. Amish children for example often attend public schools, and even when they attend their own community schools they are done in English and learn the three R’s for example. Though they are exempt from attending beyond 8th grade. I think the judgment needs the be made based not just on what is or isn’t taught but how able the children are able to function as a literate member of society.

  • It’s not that simple. Even if a private school accepted no state money, under the NY substantial equivalency rule students attending private schools not conforming to the state’s guidelines would all be considered “truant”, effectively shutting down the school.

  • Jews barely teach English, math, science or social studies…..
    Sounds like every major public school system in the United States…. hat tip to the teacher unions.

  • The situation in New York has exhibited this characteristic – special accommodations for Orthodox Jews – for many many years.

    It is really no different than the situation with the Amish elsewhere.

    You have a radically divergent group which aims education at a life far out of the mainstream.

    Not everyone wants their culture to be assimilated.

  • It appears from the article that the recipients of this education function at a minimal level.

    You are correct that children should be able to function in the society in which they live.

    The key is “they live”, not you live, not as you think they should live.

    Just as grade schools increasingly teach in Spanish, or ebonics, or Arabic, for cultures that are not Ozzie and Harriet, so the Amish and these ultra Orthodox have a different vision of society.

    Simcha Felder is, to say the least, “controversial”:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simcha_Felder

  • Yep, kinda like the kids that are indoctrinated into thinking two mommies or two daddies is the norm.
    Or, that they (the child) doesn’t have a gender until they (they child) determines it.
    Like that narrowmindedness; right?

  • While it is true that the Amish can end their schooling at age fourteen, I’m not aware of any ruling that allows them to have different standards of schooling up to that point. Also, the Amish actually have a period where their children are not just allowed but encouraged to engage with the wider world around them, so that their choice to remain with the Amish on reaching adulthood is at least somewhat informed.

  • Not to worry. President Trump will Make America Hetero Again right after he Makes America White Again.

  • I guess it depends on how you define “minimal.” If you go to comment sections on websites like Yeshiva World News you’ll come across writers barely able to put together a paragraph in English.

  • If yoou try to strike up a conversation in Southeast DC, you’ll come across speakers barely able to put a sentence together in English.

    In any case, I am not sure that English is all that critical in some communities.

    Right up until WWII there were large pockets of German, Czech, Lithuanian, and other non-English speakers in Texas, the upper Midwest, and other parts of the USA.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Welk

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson

    Nobody seemed to suffer much.

  • So, that’s the Amish.

    Ultra Orthodox Jews in NYC are another matter, a matter which respect for parental rights and religious beliefs has some purchase.

  • You may not need English in Boro Park or Satmar Williamsburg (very different from the hipster part of Williamsburg), but you do need it in the rest of the city. There are no shtetls anymore.

  • Apparently not or the folks there would be neither eating nor thriving.

    The amount of English needed to get by is remarkably low, just as the amount of French needed to get a room in, a meal in, or traverse Paris is very low.

    Assuming parents and religions had no rights, a case could be made for compelling more.

    Since parents and religions have rights, the burden of proof is a bit higher.

  • Spoken like a cretin who is both trying to demonstrate personal bigotry and disdain for education standards.

  • Also Amish avoid public assistance as a matter of faith. Haredi families live off of it as a matter of necessity.

  • I find it interesting that there is such a concern by the liberals here on the education of a small religious group when the vast majority of publicly educated kids in Chicago, LA, Milwaukee, Baltimore, Atlanta, NYC, etc. cannot read or write.
    Why don’t we fry the big fish first; then we can worry about the religious groups talking about God and stuff.

  • Right. I was just responding to Torin, that not taking state money is not an effective “simple solution” for the schools. They will have “the state’s oversight” whether they take the state’s money or not.

  • I can walk and chew gum at the same time. And it’s when they’re not talking about God that’s the concern here. My concern with their lack of secular education has nothing to do with your pet obsession of partisan politics.

  • Spoken like a guy who lives in a huge city that sees the product of public education daily.
    Do a little research and compare the academic standings of US students compared to the rest of the world pre and post the department of education.
    I’m all for standards; but let’s get back to the three R’s and leave the gender studies, global warming and other “really important” liberal stuff in the trash.

  • Let’s hope someone takes action before we have an adult population that isn’t sure which bathroom to use.

  • You don’t have to put the state’s oversight in quotes. The state’s oversight is absolutely necessary to effective education. The laws are on the books, the state senator here was looking to duck out of its enforcement through political blackmail.

  • “…the right of children to have access to a full range of opportunities when they reach adulthood.”

    That is, arguably, a natural right but it isn’t a constitutional one. I’d love to see all children have such opportunities and be hindered by nothing but their own aptitude, but it isn’t the role of the state to ensure that it happens.

    When it comes to the will of parents vs the will of the government, unless children are being abused, I’ll lean toward the parents.

  • I put things in quotes when I am quoting someone. That is standard English practice for quotations, I believe. My quotes were from Torin’s initial comment which, as I said, I was responding to.

  • why are you identifying all critics as liberals? that’s a broad brush to throw around without much evidence.

    I think part of the point is not to defer focus from the larger problems to the smaller, but to see how pervasive the problems are in general in both public and (very) private institutions. Maybe that’s just my non-liberal take.

  • Nobody did have a problem until states like North Carolina decided to rush panicky, ill-conceived bathroom laws through their state legislatures. Talk about the tail wagging the dog.

    The norm throughout the history of western civilization was single occupancy, unisex bathrooms (a/k/a outhouses, for the most part). Gender-specific multi-stall privies are a development of the 20th century. So what’s the big deal if we go back to what we had for centuries, albeit keeping them indoors?

  • “minimal” is a pretty subjective term I know, and that itself would warrant a long discussion.

  • I still have elderly non-English speakers (Polish, Czech, Italian) here in Pittsburgh, but for that generation English was a second language and they encouraged their children to learn English to live in the world. You can certainly get by in that community as long as you stay in that community and not suffer as you say. But struggling with the everyday language of the outside community can certainly be a huge hindrance.

  • I wonder what cities you hold out as examples of effective education systems? They are certainly few and far between in areas under control by conservatives.

  • LOL, you are a person who spouts a partisan party line without thinking much about it.

    I have yet to see a conservative who had ideas about education beyond stealing public money for religious schools and underfunding public schools in general. It’s also telling that the states with the lowest education stats are also the most conservative politically.

    You aren’t for standards or adequately addressing education at all. You are promoting graft, segregation and the erosion of middle class existence.

    Most of the world doesn’t have compulsory education to high school. Global warming is accepted science (by people who know what they are talking about. Not you), gender studies is not a public school subject. The acknowledgement of the existence of families of a given community is simply doing the job of a school which serves it.

    The school here is a largely example why education should never be privatized and why religious education is no benchmark for quality.

  • “unless children are being abused”

    The purpose of the ultra-Orthodox yeshivas is to perpetuate their subculture by making if very difficult for their children to have any interface with the broader culture. Arguably, that is child abuse.

  • Public education is the primary example of socialism in the United States, and also an excellent example of why socialism fails every time.

    It is difficult to fault “stealing public money” that was stolen from parents who have a constitutional and fundamental right to educate their children by left wing nutcases like yourself.

  • Apparently these folks have education standards.

    Also apparently they don’t comport with your ideas due to your personal bigotry and disdain for those who don’t want to march to the NEA tune.

  • I thought someone might go there. It’s a very slippery slope to put the state in the position of deciding the legitimacy of education based on religious beliefs. Where’s the objective criteria? Where’s the constitutional precedent?

    Interface with the broader culture is not a universally recognized value. Some parents want to keep their kids as far away from the broader culture as possible, and who’s to say they’re wrong to do it?

    I tend to believe these things have a way of working themselves out. Kids grow up and make choices whether to embrace the beliefs of their parents or go their own way. And religious institutions either adjust to that reality or become marginalized and eventually die out. Thus has it ever been.

  • If the state’s oversight is absolutely necessary to effective education, then the state must be failing to perform oversight based on the results of public education in New York.

  • So the July 13th, 1991, Cherokee Nation Language and Cultural Preservation Act providing for promotion and preservation of Cherokee language, history and culture in recognition that the survival of a people is dependent upon their capacity to preserve and protect their culture and language perpetrated child abuse in programs like Tsa la gi tsu na de lo qua s di because it perpetuates a subculture?

    I believe people in this country have a constitutional and fundamental right to establish and maintain any d-mned subculture they want.

  • “It’s a very slippery slope to put the state in the position of deciding the legitimacy of education based on religious beliefs”
    That is exactly what the state is not doing. State criteria define a legitimate primary and secondary education completely independent of religious beliefs. And there are certainly religions that are able to provide a religious education and still incorporate the state’s non-religious criteria – this is exactly what Catholic schools do.

    It is not the state but the ultra-Orthodox yeshivas that are “deciding the legitimacy of education based on religious beliefs.” And they are doing this not to benefit their children but to perpetuate their subculture.

  • Why they’re doing it isn’t for you or I to know. The question is whether they have the legal right to allow their religious tradition to supersede state requirements. We’ll see.

    Moving on. Peace.

  • Of course, BobBob, now ask your caretaker to take you out to your sandbox, bless your precious little heart.

  • If they weren’t quotes from Torin’s actual comment, meant to demonstrate to you that his comment was what I was referring back to, THEN they could have been scare quotes.

    As it is, finding scare quotes in regular garden variety quotes opens an interesting window on your thought processes.

  • Of course, BobBob, now ask your caretaker for some warm milk to help you calm your nerves, bless your precious little heart.

  • I just told you what subject should be taught in school: English, math, physics, biology, cam, economics, history, anthropology, literature, Latin,I just told you what should be taught – math, physics, chem, English, civics, economics, reading, writing, history, social studies, Latin, literature, etc. Teach kids the basics so they can function.
    You must not be a parent ( the thought actually sickens me); or you are naive. The big city public schools; when in session; teach more political crap than actual subject matter. You wanna bet they don’t talk about gender ifentissues? You would lose. Public schools

  • Didn’t North Carolina implement that law because a guy wanted to use the female bathroom or vice versa?

  • I’ll be honest buddy, I’m not sure if there are any public school systems in a major metropolitan areas that are doing well right now. Maybe that’s because there’s not one major metropolitan area that’s run by conservatives ( there may be one). However, if you go out to the suburbs of these major metropolitan areas; the suburban schools are doing much better.

  • So you have none to speak of and are just sputtering about for its own sake.

    I can’t think of a state with a longstanding conservative political majority which ranks high in education either. Conservatives don’t support education. They support siphoning taxpayer money to cronies and making silly complaints.

  • You don’t know what is being taught right now. Therefore your opinion as to what they should be doing differently is of no value. You don’t support teaching social studies, civics, or history. What you call “political crap” is largely fiction. What you call “gender identity issues” is better known as acknowledging there is at least a generation of parents who reap the benefits of marriage equality. They exist, denial gets you nowhere.

    You are for privatization because you support corruption and are too lazy to look at the big picture. It doesn’t actually work. Private schools game their stats by being able to drop students at will. Public schools have a mandate to teach an entire communities. Vouchers are a method of segregating schools, diverting funding from public schools and support political cronies.

    Well off communities have zero interest in private schooling except for religious wingnuts. Well funded schools in cities work rather well for the same reason. Public schools exist because the people demand government provide education and set standards for it using taxpayer dollars. It is a necessity to a democracy to provide education to the widest swath of the public with its resources. BTW You don’t give a flying —- about black and latino communities. Where they have adequate funding for public schooling they do quite well. As any community would.

  • Yep. You got it all figured out. You can say anything you want but the fact of the matter is that the public schools in the major cities produce nothing but underachievers that can’t read nor write. The stats don’t lie.
    You sir, perpetuate the slavery of the black and Latino community that you purport to defend by doing the same thing over and over and over again. All you do is sentence another generation to doom by making them dependent on the state.
    I will say again, the parents of these communities will try anting to improve the lives of their children. But you white liberals refuse to do anything that would weaken the teacher unions or the state.
    Don’t forget to tell me that it’s all about the kids…

  • I would say the further you get out of a major city, the better chance you have of attending a successful public school system. It could be a Democrat or republican district; the key is the school board and how they decide to spend the taxpayers money.
    My experience is that those districts that have a union friendly school board normally have a system that financially struggles. This eventually leads to cuts in programming and services.

  • Regardless of whether or not I’m okay with it, legislation is not the answer to everything.

  • Not really true either. Rural schools are not particularly known for academic achievement either. Neither are working class suburbs.

    What you really want to say is education is a function of money, funding. But you are wedded to a brain dead party line which says “public education bad, private education good”.

  • “public schools in the major cities produce nothing but underachievers that can’t read nor write. ”

    Except for the cities which adequately fund their schooling. Neighborhoods with money do very well. Many even have high achieving magnet schools. Stats don’t lie, it’s a function of funding.

    You have always been a bigot. You don’t care about minority schooling. Voucher programs and privatization schemes in those communities amount to little more than warehousing kids on government subsidy. The quality private schools don’t take vouchers or raise tuition when such programs are enacted.

    Parents who vote for conservatives who cut education funding and give generous tax breaks to the wealthy deliberately harm those children. Your solution is none at all. Same problem except some are profiting from it.

  • If Betsy DeVos and her many supporters in Congress and the White House get their way, all schools in America will become “ultra-Christian” versions of these ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools. All schools will teach a fundamentalist Christian curricula to the exclusion of “secular subjects.”

  • If you’re unable to do anything else, how is that a “choice” you’ve made? Kids’ education should leave them equipped with enough English and math to at least hold down a minimum-wage job and somewhat support themselves, and that is arguably not what many of these schools are doing.

  • Your capitulation is duly noted.

    Expanding school vouchers is a rip-off and scam
    https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/ej-montini/2017/01/31/montini-debbie-lesko-doug-ducey-school-choice-vouchers/97273254/

    “second-rate “private” schools pop up, hoping to cash in on the state giveaway while offering a less than stellar education.”

    Its not “school choice” its destroying public schools to divert money to the pockets of cronies and make the situation even worse. As DeVos did in Michigan and planned for the nation.

  • “You are for privatization because you support corruption and are too lazy to look at the big picture”

    Right there, you have the entire Progressive playbook, summarized in a single sentence, and its implications: “Conservatives aren’t people with bad ideas; they’re bad people with ideas. You’re a bad person; I’m a good one – that’s why I need to rule, and you need to submit.”

    Apparently, someone needs to point out to you that when such toxic attitudes become polarizingly mutual (which you are inviting, if not provoking), it’s a run-up to civil war – you don’t negotiate with evil, or compromise with evil people; you fight them to extermination.

    Oh – and someone also needs to point out that to you that your initial premise of moral superiority is pure self-serving, self-exalting, high-horse-riding BS. The sad but obvious fact is that you’re willing to further polarize our already divided nation and fan a civil war just to protect your own ego and self-image.

  • Good to know the official position of neo-nazis on the subject. Of course they support measures which create segregated schools. Go figure.
    https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-k-12/reports/2017/07/12/435629/racist-origins-private-school-vouchers/

    “You’re a bad person; I’m a good one – that’s why I need to rule, and you need to submit.”

    Projection is strong with this one!

    Sorry buddy but Libertarian stances are pure nonsense. Their sole purpose is to espouse “might is right” and buying one’s way out of the basics for a functioning society. Education for an entire citizienry is not only a duty of government, it is the will of the overwhelming majority of the public to provide it in an adequate manner.

    ” it’s a run-up to civil war – you don’t negotiate with evil, or compromise with evil people; you fight them to extermination.”

    Funny how your type always spouts off fantasies of violence and murder towards one’s political enemies. Nazis and their dreams of mass murder. Oh well.

    My premise of moral superiority comes from actually having a moral position. One based on rational approaches to a situation and uncluttered with bigotry and dishonest nonsense rhetoric.

    “you’re willing to further polarize our already divided nation”

    If my tone offends you, tough luck. When a nation takes a turn towards trashing all that makes it great and holds dear, division is not only warranted but absolutely necessary. Unity is for dictators and ant colonies. Division and debate is what makes a vibrant democracy.

  • “You have always been a bigot. You don’t care about minority schooling.”

    “Conservatives aren’t people with bad ideas; they’re bad people with ideas.” See the body of my response, above.

    You expose yourself every time you open your mouth.

  • Yup. Someone who has an opinion and not reluctant to call out hateful nonsense when I see it.

    You are getting to be such a snowflake!

  • More moral prancing – I’m a Neo-Nazi, spouting bigoted and dishonest rhetoric; you “actually” have a moral position based on rational approaches. I guess that really is all you’ve got, and establishing your moral superiority really is the point of your rhetorical agenda.

    “Funny how your type always spouts off fantasies of violence and murder towards one’s political enemies.”

    My type? Two words: Steve Scalise. “Your type” doesn’t just spout off fantasies – it acts them out. If that’s your concept of a “vibrant democracy,” where you kill your political enemies – send it back to the Bronze Age, where it belongs.

  • Your entire spiel is nothing more than tone trolling. Oh well. You clearly have nothing to say here besides personal attack.

    “I’m a Neo-Nazi, spouting bigoted and dishonest rhetoric;”

    That has generally been the case. You seem more annoyed at the label being used than its veracity. How very snowflake of you.

    Enjoy your evening.

  • Oligarchy, the best government money can buy!

    I can’t think of a single privatization effort which increased the quality of services to the public. I can think of several truly disastrous ones.

  • But is in practice it is almost impossible for the Amish of that age (late teens) to make the choice to leave the “Amish” and join the wider world. Their upbringing makes it impossible to acclimate to the wider society…so almost all return to their Amish homes.

  • Disgraceful…if these Orthodox religious parents want to voluntarily abuse their kids in this fashion, keep them dumb and unemployable…then let’s insure they get no government aid for their schools…and like the conservatives insist — no welfare for the Hasidic.

    There has to be some fast food kosher joints where they can work without much education….and find out manna from heaven is not real.– also perhaps they will understand the only messiah that ever comes is a fraud…as the Christians are finding out !!

  • Says the paid Russian troll who has no respect for the religious beliefs of LGBTQ+ people.

  • You have no idea what cults are, obviously. They are rampant in American culture, and they do not let people leave without a fight.

  • Bob Arnzen is a paid Russian troll, who wants to make sure that everyone grows up to be just as stupid as he is.

  • People leave traditional religions all the time without coercion. Cults are a different topic.

  • Parents make the choice.

    Unless they’re removing children’s body parts, blinding them, making them live in a basement, starving them, or engaging in some other obviously criminal activity, they have a fairly wide latitude.

    Yes, it is all arguable. What it is not is unarguable.

  • Some “tones” just need trolling; yours virtually begs for it.

    Besides, you don’t leave your interlocutors much choice – your “tone” is all you’ve got. The entire thrust of your rhetoric is to establish that because you’re a better person than they are, any “argument” they offer is just a disguise for corrupt motivations, and is to be rejected on that basis – not on the basis of the argument itself. Those who attempt a rational presentation of conservatism in an engagement with you need to know it’s a pointless endeavor. So if you keep it up, I’ll probably point it out again.

  • Extra late term abortion – right?

    You’re all for that. After all, it’s just a point in time.

  • That child was not located inside of his mother’s body at the time. #MinorDifferences

  • Mothers right to choose? Right?
    You’re a big supporter. Timing doesn’t mean anything.

  • So, you have no more objections to abortion whatsoever. I’m glad we had this talk.

  • Obviously not, if you think that breeding babies just to kill them for being gay or trans is ok.

  • The numbers I’ve seen puts their retention rate at between 85-90%. That’s certainly high, but only 5% above Hindu retention (80%), 10% above Jews (75%) and 20% above Mormons and evangelical Protestants (65%).

  • The major problem with the article, which I laughed my way through, is that it is EXTREMELY selective in picking what history to report.

    The primary driver behind making public schools what they are today and denying parents choice was and remains anti-Catholicism:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/40579872?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/367880?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-urban-legend-of-catholic-schools

    https://www.catholicleague.org/anti-catholicism-and-the-history-of-catholic-school-funding/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlAr7nAOHOI

  • You’re repeating yourself, not responding to me. Give me something (anything) other than your “tone” to troll, and I’ll be right on it. Your only rhetorical tactic is “I’m a good person, you’re a bad person – therefore, I win.” What you perceive as my “snowflakieness” is actually your irritation at being exposed – projected.

  • Arghhhhh you have bored me to death with your inane prattle and avoidance of the issues raised in this article.

    [clutches chest and falls to the floor]

  • Oh my…talk about “snowflakes” – and a drama queen about it to boot!

    The reason “the issues raised by the article” never came up is because my post wasn’t about them (you were), and you yourself never brought them up.

    But the real irony here is that you are the one who’s “avoided” dealing with anything I’ve actually said, dismissing my observation as “tone trolling.” Call it what you like, your pejoratives are a deflection, not an answer.

    Just to make the point you’re avoiding as explicit as possible, let me put it this way:

    Your rhetorical agenda, and presumably the personal impulse behind it, is to establish (at least in your own mind) that your opponent is a bad person, whose ideas should be rejected, regardless of their ideational content, on that account alone – and, of course, that you are a good person, whose ideas are presumptively valid simply for that reason.

    That’s not the basis for a “discussion;” that’s the basis for a “sermon” – which you regularly deliver.

  • What a bizarre comment from a provocateur who’s anti-religious, anti-male, and anti-intelligence.

    God, you humiliate yourself and your parents.

  • Are you a parent. Were you raised in an orphanage in Casescu’s fascist Romania??
    You have no understanding of the legal limits put on parents.

  • Yeah — I’d find a recitation of my rhetorical failings pretty “boring” too.

    “Your capitulation is duly noted.”

    Hasta la vista!

  • That simply (and truly) doesn’t apply to anything.. So we’re back to that, and now you’re Kommandant Not/Applicable

  • True. The Gay Goliath Cult will hunt down their escapees in a hot minute, unless Christians rescue ’em QUICK!!

  • I’ve been more than fair with you, but frankly you contribute zero to conversations and at some point it becomes time to move on.

    You join “Lisa Strom” and “Charlotte N/A” in being blocked.

    Have an unpleasant life.

  • It’s child abuse to not let your child learn about how to act like prostitute and do drugs like that “broader culture” you are talking about? That “broader culture”‘s kids are pregnant by 13 and on drugs by 12. You don’t see that in observant Jewish communities.

  • Yes, but there should be a limit. Look at the black thug culture. You consider that a constitutional right to raise ghetto thugs dealing drugs and pumping out illegitimate welfare crack babies?

  • “Unless they’re removing children’s body parts,”

    Oh here we go, another anti-circumcision anti-semitic screed. Worry about the blacks and their thuggery.

  • You certainly worked hard to come up with “anti-circumcision anti-semitic screed” out of that.

  • Not at all. That’s a typical anti-semitic rant, in an attempt to outlaw circumcision.

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