Opinion

To end abortion, don’t ban it. Support families instead.

President Trump greets Judge Brett Kavanaugh, his Supreme Court nominee, in the East Room of the White House on July 9, 2018, in Washington. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci)

(RNS) — Anti-abortion leaders have been thrilled with President Trump’s nomination of Brett Kavanaugh to replace Justice Anthony Kennedy on the U.S. Supreme Court.

Many hope he can be pivotal in overturning Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision legalizing abortion. Priests for Life has called Kavanaugh “exactly what we need on the Supreme Court.” Kristan Hawkins, president of Students for Life of America, tweeted, “THIS IS NOT A DRILL: Kennedy is RETIRING. We can overturn Roe and Doe. We can #abolishabortion in our lifetime.”

But criminalizing abortion is not the way to abolish abortion. Even if Roe were overturned — which would send the issue back to the states, not outlaw it completely — there would still be thousands of women who, for various, complex reasons, believe abortion is their best option.

In general, the anti-abortion movement should get over its aversion to federal social programs. Family-friendly public policies have a powerful effect on reducing demand for abortion services. It’s a natural extension of caring for prenatal life to create strong social support programs, particularly for economically vulnerable women, so that no one feels she has to abort to stay financially afloat.

There is modest but compelling evidence that such programs have decreased abortion rates in the U.S. and abroad. While examples from European society don’t map neatly onto the U.S., it’s worth noting that from 2010 and 2017, Hungary’s government rolled out massive family-support programs aimed at increasing the birthrate. Such benefits included family tax benefits, paid child care leave, maternity support, free textbooks and free summer camps. In seven years alone, the abortion rate in Hungary dropped by 30 percent (40,449 to 28,500).

More generally, European countries with stronger support programs have lower abortion rates than the U.S., while Latin American countries where abortion is illegal have much higher abortion rates than the U.S.

RNS photo illustration by Kit Doyle

“Common sense would seem to indicate that, with more social support, especially vulnerable women have more resources than they otherwise would — and thus be less likely to choose abortion,” Catholic ethicist Charles Camosy told me. “But unfortunately, especially in responding to small-government skeptics, this issue has not really been studied in much detail.”

In the United States, Camosy said, stronger supports for women and parents from 1992 to today — particularly the Affordable Care Act — almost certainly have contributed to the decline in abortion rates. The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program and the Earned Income Tax Credit also have likely helped the U.S. reach the lowest abortion rates since Roe v. Wade, according to Camosy and other Catholic advocates. From state to state, a 2008 study by Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good found that “states with more generous grants to women, infants and children under the age of 5 … had a 37 percent lower abortion rate,” which translated to more than 300,000 fewer abortions in 2000 compared with 1990.

Simply because having a child in America costs a lot of money, the link between abortion and economics is irreducible. Indeed, a Morning Consult poll for The New York Times identified major reasons women report having fewer children than they actually want:

  •   “Child care is too expensive” — 64 percent
  •   “Worried about the economy” — 49 percent
  •   “Can’t afford more children” — 44 percent
  •   “Not enough paid family leave” — 39 percent
  •   “No paid family leave” — 38 percent

The anti-abortion movement already recognizes that caring for prenatal life necessarily means caring for women. Leaders say that women facing unplanned pregnancies should be welcomed instead of shamed, and plenty of organizations encourage individual charity. It’s not uncommon for congregations to seek donations of infant formula, diapers and baby clothing to help and encourage expectant mothers to give birth. All this is well and good.

Yet amid the push to confirm Kavanaugh, it’s worth asking if the anti-abortion movement would be ready for care for women if Roe were overturned. The next step for the anti-abortion movement will be to put its money where its mouth is— even if it means supporting expansion of federal programs and policies — so that no woman is forced to choose between economic security and having a child.

(Katelyn Beaty is former managing editor of Christianity Today and the author of “A Woman’s Place.” The views expressed in this opinion piece do not necessarily reflect those of Religion News Service.)

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Katelyn Beaty

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  • Abortion was never banned. It was a well regulated militia, ready to be used when necessary.

  • See? You thought they didn’t have simpleton writers at RNS….Abortion is all about economics!

  • To end abortion, practice safe sex by using something more reliable than the pill. To end the epidemic of STDs, use a 50 cent condom which also fosters significantly lower unplanned pregnancies.

  • That’s a deadly false dichotomy. That’s like saying, “Make murder outside the womb legal, just care for the murderers.”

    Ban abortion AND care for women – like pro-lifers already do! Support pregnancy centers instead of attacking them.

  • And yes, we are “anti-abortion.” Abortion kills children up to their first breath and without anesthetic, so yeah, we’re really against that. If only you Molech-worshiping ghouls were also opposed to it.

    And you pro-aborts aggressively fight pregnancy centers. If you REALLY believed what you said then you’d be starting your own centers with YOUR time and money. But you don’t – you just take other people’s money at the point of a Federal gun to fund counterproductive programs https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2015/12/29/why-doesnt-the-christian-left-support-crisis-pregnancy-centers/

  • There is one Christian governmental program that could end all abortion immediately: Treat all fornication outside of marriage as if it is rape, and require that the fathers take responsibility for the children.

    NOTHING else comes closer than that.

    You can’t have guilt-free sex without abortion. Fornication is the probleem. Ban fornication, care for the children.

  • Abstinence hasn’t worked since the first two eukaryotes bumped together a billion years ago.

    If abortions are banned, my thought is to require all males to have their DNA registered so that the one who impregnates a woman can be identified and held accountable for the period of the pregnancy and until the child reaches age 18. Accountable includes assisting the mother-to-be during the pregnancy with housing and health care, paying for 1/2 the cost of the birth, supporting the mother and child for a while after the birth while the mother gets back on her feet, and then providing 1/2 of whatever it takes to support the child while growing up. I also think that if the male is below age to provide for the child, the nearest living adult male relative should be required to fill in the gap.

    I would rather keep abortion legal and do all we can to reduce the occasion when women feel they must seek one. I am a big believer in birth control. So, as an adjunct to making abortion illegal and holding the male impregnator accountable, I think the government should be required to provide for effective birth control, as recommended by a woman’s doctor at no cost to the woman and beginning when she wants to begin. Then, the government that wants to ban abortion needs to provide assistance to the pregnant woman, pay for the birth, and give her and her child financial help while the child is growing up.

    And, in the meantime, the government that bans abortion needs to fund research into artificial wombs until they are perfected.

    You want to control what another person can do with her body? Pay for it.

  • Treat all fornication outside of marriage as if it is rape, and require that the fathers take responsibility for the children.

    You really didn’t think that out well, did you? The fathers can’t take responsibility for raising their children if they’re in prison for rape.

  • “If abortions are banned, my thought is to require all males to have their DNA registered so that the one who impregnates a woman can be identified and held accountable for the period of the pregnancy and until the child reaches age 18.”

    It would probably be simpler to issue government chastity belts for women, with a requirement for signing in with a saliva sample if you want to hanky panky with the wearer.

    “I would rather keep abortion legal and do all we can to reduce the occasion when women feel they must seek one.”

    And I would rather keep murder legal and do all we can to reduce the occasion when you just have to kill someone. After all, some of them just ask for it.

    “And, in the meantime, the government that bans abortion needs to fund research into artificial wombs until they are perfected.”

    Why?

    You’ve already provided for the child’s welfare.

  • Not only is this comment laden with the foul stench of radicalized Christianity, it’s anti-Semitic.
    Once beyond the womb you obviously have NO respect for human life.

  • To end murder, don’t ban it, support families instead.
    To end adultery, don’t ban it, support families instead.
    To end bank fraud, don’t ban it, support families instead.

    ‘Support’ yeah

  • The onlyreason abstinence does not work, is because people get married too late. Marriage before sex, idiots.

    But the DNA is a better idea than even a single murder for the sake of unnecessary sex.

  • First of all, the “fathers” in these instances aren’t responsible; otherwise they wouldn’t have gotten the girls pregnant in the first place.
    Second, when they do get them pregnant; you often hear that “it ain’t mine”… so no luck there.
    Third, good luck with finding the nearest living adult male….

    On another note, it’s not the governments responsibility to provide birth control no more than it is the governments responsibility to provide you with a home.

    Finally, you talk a lot about the fathers being responsible for the pregnancy. You talk about the government being responsible to prevent the unwanted pregnancy. But you don’t say a word about the only person who can control whether or not she has a pregnancy – the woman. Maybe she should be responsible and ensure that she doesn’t get pregnant in the first place.

  • You cannot ban abortion and care for women at the same time. Women are NOT incubators. Turning us into gestational slaves is not care. And I’d rather support clinics that provide free/low cost contraception. You know, that thing that actually reduces abortions.

  • I’d rather mandate that all males, when they hit puberty, have reversible vasectomies. Makes a lot more sense since men are fertile into their 80’s. Why do you hate women so much?

  • BS. Only 1.2% of abortions take place after the 20th week. Those are due to fetal incompatibility with life or health of the mother. Women don’t just wake up in the middle of the 3rd trimester and decide to terminate a healthy pregnancy. There are only 4 doctors in the U.S. who do 3rd trimester abortions. They cost $25,000 in cash.

  • “crisis” pregnancy centers get taxpayer funds. Many of them are unlicensed and do not have medical personnel.

  • “Only 1.2% of abortions take place after the 20th week. Those are due to
    fetal incompatibility with life or health of the mother.” is a complete fabrication.

  • I imagine that often the man pushed for unprotected sex and for the abortion. Therefore to make abortion illegal in a way that actually reduces the number of abortions, it should be just the man who goes to prison.

  • As we have seen with the clergy abuse scandal and the Intel CEO resignation and the #METOO movement, the idea of bedroom privacy just enables rapists and abusers.

    It is as much of a diabolic lie as the rest of the anti-love sexual revolution.

  • No – the womb may function as an incubator but it does far, far more. Incubators do not, without external intervention, provide sustenance and internal protections against disease. Neither do they spontaneously reject some 30-50% of the items deposited within them (If it existed God would be responsible for a far higher rate of abortion than any society has ever achieved deliberately).

    This is the fallacy which the work of Fallopius (Gabriele Falloppio b.1523 – d1562) exposed.

    Until then it was generally thought that the womb merely acted as an incubator for the development of the father’s child – there was no anatomical awareness as to how the mother’s genetic data could meet with the sperm. Therefore the whole of the “code” must come from the father.

    Thus the men who wrote (and translated) the Bible had no qualms about using the term “seed” – which is the fertilised pre-embryo – leading to statements like “spilling his seed” (Gen 38:9).

    Just another way that science updates the human guesswork that was sold as “the word of God”.

  • “a bedroom police force”

    Isn’t that what the Catholic Church aspires to be? Or maybe already thinks it is?

  • If a society is serious about minimising the need for abortion it can undertake a proven programme.

    Teach children and adults (male and female) that women have the same rights as men to run their own lives. take their own decisions and take responsibility for their own bodies.

    Empower women financially so that they are not dependant upon others.

    Recognise, and incorporate in law, the knowledge that each person’s sexuality is somewhere (potentially anywhere) along a spectrum between total “male” and total “female”.

    Enforce equality of opportunity – don’t just legislate for it.

    Provide age-appropriate sex-ed from age 5 – including, when appropriate, the consequences of genetic variation, evidence-based knowledge about abstinence and the various forms of contraception and accurate information about sexual practices and their consequences for personal health.

    Any society which claims to be concerned about abortion rates but doesn’t follow the tried and proven route is clearly not serious about reducing abortion. In some societies it appears that the male fear of female sexuality (other than when used in the service of men who doubt their own abilities) is what drives the need to demonise those whose sexuality is not as those men think theirs should be.

    See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/24/want-to-lower-the-abortion-rate-support-pro-choice-policies
    if you can risk exposure to evidence and reason.

  • To end murder remove the circumstances which foster murder
    To end adultery change human nature – the nature that evolved to make us the most successful predator of modern times.
    To end bank fraud use the systems which already exist – but aren’t implemented for cost/opportunity reasons.

    Oh, silly me – I’d forgotten; Murder/adultery/bank fraud don’t happen where they are banned – you must have a point after all!

  • Thanks for another of your wonderful displays of Christian charity, Bobbob. It is because of people like you that the churches in parishes all over the US are overflowing Sunday after Sunday. You sure do live the message of Jesus, bless your precious little heart.

  • The causes aren’t material. They are spiritual, a lack of teaching the true and the good and the hard to young people.

    Schools eschewed the concept of the harder virtues, replacing them with softer headed “values” of “tolerance” and other drivel.

    The secular world rejected God, the notion of our fallen nature, needing constant tethering, and instead replaced the idea of truth with relativism.

    Modernism first got rid of faith, and then attack reason.

  • Liar. Making up silly phrases like “gestational slaves” ignores how those children got there.

    So go ahead and support “free” contraception with YOUR money.

    Using your logic, we might as well make murder outside the womb legal since people still murder.

    Blocking you for serial idiocy.

  • How incoherent and false? How is that possibly anti-Semitic? The Jews thought children were a blessing.

    Yeah, real radical to think you shouldn’t kill children up to their 1st breath and without anesthetic.

    The Hippocratic Oath was written around 400 BC and is explicitly anti-abortion. https://eternity-matters.com/2011/05/18/the-hippocratic-oath-and-abortion/

    You are just another anti-science child-killer. Scientific fact: A new human being is created at fertilization.
    http://www.abort73.com/abortion/medical_testimony/

    Blocking you as further dialog looks unfruitful.

  • No respect outside the womb? Heh. A common logical fallacy used by pro-abortionists is the ad hominem argument, or attacking the person and not the argument. It is typically used by saying that pro-lifers are “anti-women.” Use any or all of these responses to show how pathetic that charge is, and how it shows that the pro-aborts resort to petty name-calling because they don’t have any legitimate arguments:

    1. It was rich, mostly white, mostly male abortionists who lied and convinced women back in the 60’s and 70’s that they needed to be able to kill their children to prove that they were equal in value to men.

    2. Abortionists systematically hide rapists to protect their abortion profits, yet the pro-abortion Left doesn’t care. http://www.childpredators.com/tape/ https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/planned-parenthood-still-hiding-statutory-rape/

    3. If pro-aborts want to throw around accusations regarding motives, here is a much better one: Pro-aborts hate black people and are the ultimate racists. Abortion kills blacks at a rate THREE times that of whites and that will go up with the Democrats’ dreams of taxpayer-funding for abortions*. This is genocide for the black community. Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood’s founder, was a well-document racist who wanted to eliminate blacks.

    4. Early feminists were anti-abortion. Susan B. Anthony’s newspaper viewed women having abortions as a symptom of a lack of equality, not the proof of equality. She called abortion “child murder,” and that was long before 4-D ultrasounds. Other Susan B. Anthony quotes: “When a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is a sign that, by education or circumstances, she has been greatly wronged.” “[Is the woman] guilty? Yes. No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh! Thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!”

    5. Virtually all gender selection abortions destroy female human beings for the sole reason that they are female human beings. It is the ultimate misogyny.

    6. Legalized abortion puts the burden on women to use it as a method of birth control.

    7. Most polls show that at least half of women are pro-life. How can the pro-aborts pretend to be taken seriously when they accuse half of women as being anti-women?

    8. There are many physical and emotional risks to abortion that are bad for women. The wildly pro-abortion media just hides the truth about the Gosnells, the 911 calls and so much more from you.

    9. “Bro-choice” guys LOVE abortion because it lets them use women without consequences. Why would a guy possibly want to marry a woman who would kill her own children, especially when he can use her for sex for free?

    *Democrats are officially pro-abortion extremists, not pro-choice. Why? Because they want taxpayer-funded abortions, laws requiring all health care plans to cover abortions, removal of conscience clauses, and no restrictions on anything, including “partial-birth abortion” (aka infanticide), late term abortions, gender-selection abortions, parental notification, etc. From their platform: “The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay. We oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right.”

  • We oppose child-killing inside and outside the womb and we oppose counter-productive gov’t programs. Nothing inconsistent about that. Stop using stupid arguments to promote abortion.

    Do you have any idea how much time and money I donate to help the poor or how much I pay in taxes? [Pause] Didn’t think so. So why not stick to the topic, which is whether you should be able to crush and dismember children in the womb? The “pro-lifers don’t care about those outside the womb/haven’t adopted all the children/etc.” canard is false on many levels.

    1. If people were slaughtering toddlers, the elderly or anyone else the way they do unborn children, I guarantee that we would be protesting that as well. So we are completely consistent in protecting innocent human lives regardless of location and yes, we do care for life post-birth.

    2. You can speak against moral evils all day, every day without being obligated to care for all the victims for life. If mothers were killing toddlers for the same reasons they give for abortions (money, career, love life, pressure from boyfriends / parents, etc.) would you stay quiet? Would you lodge the same criticism at those who spoke against toddler-cide without adopting all the children? Hopefully not. The question is whether the unborn are human beings. They are. At least that’s what all the embryology textbooks say. Just because they are smaller, more dependent and in a unique environment (formerly synonymous with a safe place) doesn’t mean their lives aren’t worthy of protection. The right to life is the foundational human right.

    3. The premise is false. Countless pro-lifers help women and children before and after birth with their own time and money. Pregnancy Resource Centers offer an array of free services. Planned Parenthood and the like make millions via abortion.

    4. Asking the government to take money by force from others to supposedly help the poor does not qualify as charity on your part.

    5. Do you criticize the American Cancer Society for not working on heart disease? If not, why are you being prideful about your preferred ministry over what others feel called to? That is, if you actually do anything for others at all. Using your logic, William Wilberforce didn’t do much because he “only” cared about abolishing the slave trade (not true, of course, as he did more than that, but it shows how ridiculous the pro-abortion argument is).

    6. Unless they want forced abortions, pro-choicers have the same obligations to help that they put on pro-lifers.

    7. The claim that we don’t care about the children outside the womb is demonstrably false. But even if their claim was true, it seems like the greater sin would be to approve of a child being literally crushed and dismembered rather than just not personally feeding someone else’s living child.

    8. Imagine saying something similar to justify keeping slavery legal: “You think slavery is wrong but won’t help them get jobs, etc.”

    9. Your basic reasoning is this: “It is OK to kill the child but not to risk her being impoverished.”10. IF you actually help them outside the womb, we could swap labels and dismiss you: “You only help them outside but let them be killed inside.” Still illogical, but that’s what you get.

  • YES PLEASE! Let’s get a real man in there- a man who won’t have a dinner with a woman without his wife present! I’m all for impeaching Trump and getting Mike Pence into the office!

  • There is no such thing as a “reversible vasectomy”, that’s another lie of the sexual revolution who thinks that fertility should be controlled. Overpopulation is a myth.

    And it is because I love women that I don’t want to see another 30 million of them killed just so that a bunch of rapists can have sex.

  • Bullshit. I know plenty of people celebrating their 60th, 70th, even 80th anniversaries who were teen marriages. The real truth is that people today have a severe attention span difficulty.

  • I had the distinct pleasure of making precious Eternity Matters block me. Guess I struck a radicalized nerve with my comment. Cut and pasted a series of boiler plate “no abortions ever” responses and then stomped off childlike, with the ball.

  • You would think the way erectile deficiency drugs were raced to the market at the turn of the century that the same scientists would have also discovered a way to effectively reverse vasectomies.

  • And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel (Genesis 3:15)

  • If the government wants to control what women can do with their wombs, then the government needs to deal with what women face by carrying through with the birth.

    If you want to control how she deals with pregnancy then you need to deal with how she avoids pregnancy. Otherwise, keep out of it.

  • Pence is a homosexual. Is that what you want? A homosexual who calls his wife by a incestuous nickname, “Mother”. Perfect.

  • Even married women have to deal with unplanned pregnancies. In fact, I read in recent statistics that the majority of abortions are by women who already have at least one child at home.

    Women need to be able to manage their fertility. For poor women who cannot afford effective contraceptives, for women in cultures where husbands dominate their wives, for working women who need to maintain the trajectory of their education or career, abortion is often the option they feel they have to take.

    The best way to reduce the number of abortions is to increase access to and knowledge of effective contraceptives. Second, begin to create the idea that pregnancies should be planned, not accidents. And make sex education at school a part of schools program.

    Get real about this. If you want to control the decision women can make about abortion, deny women an ability to control the uses to which their organs are made, then you also have a responsibility to address what makes that possible for women.

  • Yes, jibing a pro-abortion individual who has zero qualms diassembling an unborn human being is surely naughty naughty, endlesslyfazed.

    My parish is overflowing.

    How are things at the pow-wow?

  • In Germany, with its welfare programs, women still abort because it basically comes down to selfishness, not a lack of resources. Also, abortion is legal the whole nine months here in the US, and is not in Germany, except for disabled babies. Germans have more important things to do like flying to the South Pacific for 6 weeks! Babies interfere with self-gratification. Substitute rape for abortion. Should rape be legalized, since it happens and has happened for 1000s of years, and instead offer classes and counseling to men to teach them respect for women? Meanwhile police stop interfering with rapes. Some folks set up clubs and hire or lure women into them where they are then gang-raped! Stop the barbarity! God is greatly offended, (more than any human being is) by the killing of each child that He sends. Does God make mistakes? Every child God sends is a challenge and an opportunity from God to receive grace and grow in human maturity and eventually love for Him! God does not force the mom or the dad to take up the challenge, but woe to you if you do not! Eternity awaits everyone and the judgement!!!

  • Trump takes very good care of all his children!!! People make mistakes and they can grow in knowledge and wisdom as they age. Not everyone has a good Christian home to get a good formation.

  • People will discover that the main risks of Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Roberts in alignment are not Roe. The main risks are to the environment and to (what you thought was) democracy itself. The federal Constitution was not particularly designed for either one. The environment was completely unthought of. Democracy was a thing that many of the so-called “Founders” generally feared and designed against. These five will be lecturing you on that point every year at the end of June when they drop big bad decisions on you, citing Constitutional Originalism as their reason for doing so.

  • Thank you for making it clear that your moral and legal analysis consists of discussing “what women do with their wombs”.

    Perhaps we could have a discussion about what women do with their knees, keeping them together or placing them apart?

  • We already know how to reduce the abortion rate: Easy access to free/low cost contraceptives, medically accurate sex education, paid family leave, higher minimum wages and child care help.

  • If you “love” women, I never want to see your hatred in action. You just want to enslave another 30 million women.

  • https://www.mcfarlinglaw.com/marriage-and-divorce-statistics-among-young-couples/ Another reason that young couples may be waiting to marry is because marriages that come later in life are more likely to last. While the commonly cited statistic puts the number of marriages that end in divorce in the U.S. at 50%, the number is probably closer to 45%.For couples that marry between the ages of 20 and 25, however, the number of marriages that end in divorce increases to around 60%.Among young couples who do get divorced, the most commonly cited reasons for the failure of the marriage are money, inability to communicate, lack of commitment from one or both spouses, and physical or emotional abuse.

    Why are you so obsessed with the sex lives of other people?

  • https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2018-07-20/crisis-pregnancy-centers-money-for-nothing/In fact, Texas accounts for nearly half of the $40.5 million in state funding of fake clinics in 14 states across the country, according to a nationwide analysis by Rewire.News. The Texas program initially got $2.5 million in 2008, $4 million in 2010, and $5.15 million by 2014. And since 2015, when the Chronicle last dug into the program (“Millions for Propaganda … Nothing for Women’s Health,” April 17, 2015), lawmakers have only ratcheted up their investments. The Legislature infused the A2A program with $18 million for the 2016-17 biennium. But that sizable chunk of taxpayer dollars is still only half of what they ended up giving CPCs the following legislative session.

    No, you lied to women and then abandoned them. Meanwhile, funding toward the A2A program has shown a heavy investment in anti-choice persuasion rather than tangible services, let alone legitimate health care. While proponents of the program enjoy touting its ostensibly myriad services for women – baby and maternity clothes, childbirth and parenting classes, food pantries – to justify its existence, the overwhelming bulk of services provided by state-funded CPCs fall under “counsel time,” as records obtained by the Chronicle under a public information request from the Health and Human Ser­vices Commission show. “Counseling” at CPCs entails a stated mission to deter women from choosing abortion, and as evidence has shown, includes conversations rife with scare tactics and medical misinformation.

    Counselors not only push adoption and parenthood on women who come through the doors, but also feed them lies about abortion, including the false threat of breast cancer – rejected by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and eight other medical organizations – according to state and national investigations by NARAL Pro-Choice. Some counselors even shame rape survivors: At a state-funded CPC in Texas, counselors handed an investigator posing as a person who was pregnant as a result of a sexual assault a pamphlet titled “Protecting Yourself from Rape & Date Rape” that blames sexual assault survivors for the rape. “If you are afraid of rejection, or of being called a ‘prude’ or a ‘goody-goody,’ or if you can’t say no to verbal or even physical pressure, you are a setup for unwanted sex and its many consequences,” it reads. CPCs routinely instill fear by peddling the debunked “post-abortion stress syndrome,” inflate complication rates; and provide negative or false information about contraception, encouraging women to practice abstinence. And state data makes clear having those conversations are a priority.
    While the state fills the coffers of anti-choice crisis pregnancy centers, it still hasn’t repaired the damage it inflicted on women’s health care, making the lucrative investment in CPCs all the more distressing to health care advocates like Howard. In 2011, the state dramatically cut the family planning budget by two-thirds, $74 million, in an ideological maneuver leading to 80 health clinics closing or discontinuing family planning services. A couple of years later it booted Planned Parenthood from a Medicaid program (now called “Healthy Texas Women”), which left 50,000 women without basic preventive health care such as cancer screenings and annual exams. A drastic provider shortage, even with increased legislative investment in women’s health, has made returning to the same levels as before the cuts nearly impossible

  • BS. A fetus is not a child. Get a dictionary and get yourself neutered. That’s the only thing you will ever do to actually reduce the abortion rate. And aren’t all those aborted “souls” in heaven? Isn’t thta what you want?

  • So, you’d rather have a 99% chance of pregnancy than 20%? Sounds like you are lacking in math skills.

  • Who needs a peeping tom? Draconian punishments for being accused of abuse (guilty until proven innocent, with protection for the reporter) will do just fine. DNA testing with slave labor for deadbeat fathers will do the rest.

  • So women are making decisions concerning their bodies and not bothering to consult you about it. That makes you sad.

    Thank you for pointing out the basis for the anti abortion view. Pure uadulterated s1ut shaming and the assumption that women are your personal property to command.

    It’s not selfishness which is the issue here but self. Whether oone is considered a person whose self is inviolate kg whether they are nothing more than your property.

    Nobody has to give a crap what you think of a pregnancy. You bear 0% of any if the physical burdens of one. Your input is not required nor asked for here. So your word carries 0% of any weight on the subject.

  • You fetus worshipers don’t care for women or even great them as human beings. Nothing about your view involves respect for women as people. Those whose bodies are their own. People who are not your property to command.

    Pregnancy centers are a crock. They willfully lie to women, endanger their health, are staffed by those unqualified to provide health care. All to brown beat women into keeping a pregnancy.

  • You dont consider women as people and demand to control their bodies as your personal property.

    Where women aren’t being forced to give birth, they have babies my their own free will. Something you have zero respect for.

    BTW it not murder. Get bent. One has to be born to be murdered. A fetus is not a person. It has no autonomous and separate existence until birth. Until they can be separated physically, nobody needs to consider the life of a fetus other then it’s mother. You have zero say in the matter. Nobody ever had to seek your approval or permission here.

  • LMAO! Silly person. This has zero to do with life or it’s protection. It’s all about treating women as less than people. As the property if the state or lippy Bible thumper.

  • He takes such good care of children that he has them abducted, thrown in concentration camps and held for ransom.

  • He calls his wife mother, is rabidly anti gay, is hostile to the presence of women. That is some major Ted Haggard Syndrome right there.

  • So now we have the Taliban chiming in . Keep your head down. Watch out for those drones.

    Seriously, the only difference between Christian nutcases like you and people like ISIS is head gear and access to heavy weaponry.

  • So you aspire to be like ISIS. How about this, just get your nose out of everyone’s business. Nobody has to care what you think of abortion. You have no say in the matter. It’s not your body so it is never up to you. If you don’t like it, don’t have one. If you don’t like others having one, tough luck. Nobody has to care.

  • Overpopulation is not a myth. It was reversed in the developed world thanks to contraception, abortion rights, education and greater involvement and participation of women in society.

    In cultures with ultra conservative religious domination women are treated like property and we have both overpopulation and high infant mortality.

    You are the problem.

  • So you feel that women should be your property to control. According to you, they are incapable of making decisions concerning their bodies, so you must.

    The only thing women have to face are fools like you who think they have a say in what goes on in their bodies.

  • Nope. Abstinence works nowhere as policy. It is just an excuse to do nothing but finger wagging.

    Early marriage = early divorce and greater burdens on families.

  • Anecdote is not the same as data. Most people who marry young divorce young. They start families they are ill equipped to support and sacrifice education and economic growth. You have been full of crap from the get go.

  • Too bad you don’t give a flying crap about life in any way. Hence your desire to treat women as property not people.

  • You are deeply immoral. One who considers women as nothing more than property to command. Your concern for life only extends to gestation. Your blatant contempt for those born is obvious here.

    Children are born. Your dishonest inability to tell the difference between a fetus and baby names any pretension of being fact based laughable. You have to lie about basic of biology just to create your point.

  • So you are a professional liar. You lie to women to browbeat them into doing as you demand. No children are involved in a pregnancy. Children are born.

  • 0% of abortions kill children. Children are born. You already made it clear you are a professional liar.

  • Since the goal of the antiabort movement is not really anything to do with stopping abortion, but to control the sexuality of women, this is irrelevant.

  • It’s an offense against God and to the idea of marriage.

    And in some states it’s still a crime.

    In Michigan and Wisconsin it’s a FELONY.

    And it’s a punishable offense in the military as well.

  • Religious freedom means nobody has to care what you think is a sin against at God. Thankfully I do not live in a Taliban like theocracy.

    Nobody enforces adultery as a crime for obvious reasons involving a right of privacy.

    Moreover, as I said before those are crimes against people. The born.

    A fetus has no independent or physical existence separate from its mother until birth.

    Analogy is about the only thing fetus worshipers have to make a substantive argument.

  • You lie on so many levels. Nothing but straw-man arguments and personal attacks.

    Saying we don’t care about them outside the womb is a stupid lie. If you were trying to kill toddlers the way you kill children in the womb we’d oppose that, too.

    We know the difference between a fetus and a baby: a fetus is a human child at a particular stage of development, but a baby is a human child at a different stage of development, and so on.

    Your problem is with scientific facts (a new human being is created at fertilization – http://www.abort73.com/abortion/medical_testimony/ ) and the dictionary. Abortion kills children. https://wp.me/p5O8SK-7rp

    child [chahyld]

    noun, plural children.

    4. a human fetus.

    Idioms

    11. with child, pregnant: She’s with child.

  • What a cartoonish pro-abort. Yeah, all the women in the pro-life movement hate women.

    We oppose child-killing inside and outside the womb and we oppose counter-productive gov’t programs. Nothing inconsistent about that. Stop using stupid arguments to promote abortion. Do you have any idea how much time and money I donate to help the poor or how much I pay in taxes? [Pause] Didn’t think so. So why not stick to the topic, which is whether you should be able to crush and dismember children in the womb? The “pro-lifers don’t care about those outside the womb/haven’t adopted all the children/etc.” canard is false on many levels.

    1. If people were slaughtering toddlers, the elderly or anyone else the way they do unborn children, I guarantee that we would be protesting that as well. So we are completely consistent in protecting innocent human lives regardless of location and yes, we do care for life post-birth.

    2. You can speak against moral evils all day, every day without being obligated to care for all the victims for life. If mothers were killing toddlers for the same reasons they give for abortions (money, career, love life, pressure from boyfriends / parents, etc.) would you stay quiet? Would you lodge the same criticism at those who spoke against toddler-cide without adopting all the children? Hopefully not. The question is whether the unborn are human beings. They are. At least that’s what all the embryology textbooks say. Just because they are smaller, more dependent and in a unique environment (formerly synonymous with a safe place) doesn’t mean their lives aren’t worthy of protection. The right to life is the foundational human right.

    3. The premise is false. Countless pro-lifers help women and children before and after birth with their own time and money. Pregnancy Resource Centers offer an array of free services. Planned Parenthood and the like make millions via abortion.

    4. Asking the government to take money by force from others to supposedly help the poor does not qualify as charity on your part.

    5. Do you criticize the American Cancer Society for not working on heart disease? If not, why are you being prideful about your preferred ministry over what others feel called to? That is, if you actually do anything for others at all. Using your logic, William Wilberforce didn’t do much because he “only” cared about abolishing the slave trade (not true, of course, as he did more than that, but it shows how ridiculous the pro-abortion argument is).

    6. Unless they want forced abortions, pro-choicers have the same obligations to help that they put on pro-lifers.

    7. The claim that we don’t care about the children outside the womb is demonstrably false. But even if their claim was true, it seems like the greater sin would be to approve of a child being literally crushed and dismembered rather than just not personally feeding someone else’s living child.

    8. Imagine saying something similar to justify keeping slavery legal: “You think slavery is wrong but won’t help them get jobs, etc.”

    9. Your basic reasoning is this: “It is OK to kill the child but not to risk her being impoverished.”

    10. IF you actually help them outside the womb, we could swap labels and dismiss you: “You only help them outside but let them be killed inside.” Still illogical, but that’s what you get.

  • So if someone opposes killing toddlers outside the womb the way you kill children inside the womb, does that make them “toddler worshipers?” It is so revealing how you have to use such petty and fallacious arguments to justify killing your own children.

    Like all your pro-abort arguments, you ignore the body of the child who gets killed.

    You spread lies about pregnancy centers. So surprising that a child-killer would do that! https://adflegal.org/detailspages/blog-details/allianceedge/2018/03/13/debunking-7-myths-about-pregnancy-centers

    Blocking you now. Hope you reconsider your views.

  • Nope. It makes them murderers. One has to be born to be murdered. Your argument is canned garbage.

    You are a fetus worshiper because you irrationally only show concern for those gestating but none for people, the born. You fetishize pregnancy to the point of intentionally omitting that it required a woman who is a person. Not your property to command. You are not pro-life. You are just pro forced birth. Fetus worshiper is the most apt description of your belief.

    The onky one who has any say in a pregnancy is the one bearing 100% of its physical burdens. It isn’t you. Your alleged concern for the life of a fetus is really just contempt for the life of the mother. Toy do not consider her a person. She is just your slave to do as you command.

  • Yes they do. Your entire view is about immorally declaring women to be your property to command.

    They aren’t people with lives and capability to decide what goes on in their body to you.

    There are no children inside a womb. Children are born. You oppose the notion that women have the power and responsibility to make decisions about their own bodies. You demand control of them. A person whose body is at the command of another is a slave, property. So no you do nor give a flying crap about those already born. You are willing to treat half of them as less than people. Immoral arrogant send righteous garbage

    You immoral toadies were all behind our president abducting children, locking them in concentration camps and holding them ransom not too long ago.

  • You admitted to being a professional liar. Your job You do not consider women to be people. They are your property to command. What do you call a person whose body is in the command if others, a slave.

    If you can’t even be bothered to treat half of all born as people, there is no reason to believe you are actually concerned with life. Its just about making others do as you want.

    You have zero say in a pregnancy since you carry zero % of its physical burdens. Only the Mother’s will keeps a fetus alive. Not you. You can’t even bear to acknowledge her existence except as a walking incubator who is your property.

    Not your body, your opinion never matters here. Only hers. Since women are people. Their bodies are their own. Not yours.

  • What a crazy understanding of freedom, truly evidence of a bad education.

    Rights are given to effect duties to serve goods, not ourselves and our flaming emotions.

  • No, the taliban love abortion. They just do it by burying the mother in sand up to her neck and stoning her to death.

    I see no real difference between them and Planned Parenthood.

  • And, of couse, the consistent ethic of life that bans the death penalty right along with abortion. And putting the responsibility for a pregnancy on the father rather than the mother alone.

  • Said the incel who has been going on 29 years without any sign of first hand knowledge of the subject.

  • Not even close. Not a millennial. But your Taliban type tirades demonstrate an immaturity in the subject. It’s impossible to pretend you should be taken seriously.

  • You are flinging poo because you know you have a position yet can’t support with even the most basic facts.

    Genocide involves people. Those born. Those you have no regard for as human beings. Nazis banned abortion for their citizens and we’re strongly supported by “traditional” reactionary Christians. You have far more in common with them than I ever will

  • You didn’t read a word I said and you are relying on BS anecdote rather then facts.

    Overpopulation is gone from the developed world. The demographic decline has encouraged immigration. The rest of the world not so much. High average family size is a function of poverty in most of the world.

    *You might want to edit your tagline here for your own sake. I have zero desire to doxx but others may not.

  • You have no ethic of life. You treat the born as your personal property and extol the unborn to such a ridiculous degree you intentionally omit the existence of importance of the mother. It is all about control for you. Controlling sex controlling woman’s bodies. It is consistent alright, but not an ethic and not about the sanctity of life. Those who respect life respect personhood. Respect that people have an inalienable right to decide what they want for their bodies. You treat people as property. You are immoral, dishonest, contemptuous and arrogant.

    The responsibility of a pregnancy lies with the person with 100% of the physical burden of it. That isn’t going to be a man named Ted. There is nothing a father can do concerning a pregnancy which is separate and apart from the mother. So nobody but the mother has a say here.

  • No they don’t. You are lying again. They murder people for “fornication”. They treat women as property. They demand control over what consenting adults do in their own homes. They are indifferent or supportive of rape.

    You are no different from them.

  • Spoken like someone with no respect for religious freedom.

    I don’t ever have to care what your religion says in a subject and you can’t compel me to care. Your beliefs cannot be given color of law, not can they override the practice of my beliefs. Your God is not my law.

    You have nothing but lame insults here. But the truth is your God means nothing to me and you can’t force me to believe otherwise.

  • You are acting like an immature teen ager who has zero self control over your lust. I suppose the other option os that you are part of the generation who destroyed your ability to have any self control with illegal drugs in the 1960s. That whole generation is immature and never vecame moral.

  • We have the Taliban wannabe Incel and the professional liar forced birther. I suspect neither of them will stick around for other threads. They appear to he one issue wonders.

  • You deserve it. Your position is immature and ridiculous. I expect it from a barely educated indoctrinated teenager, not a mature adults.

    Your responses have been ridiculous immature garbage. So they deserve the same in response.

    You are so bereft of a valid point you have to try to sling an ad hominem argument based on what you think I am. Then construct an elaborate strawman to argue against what you think I stand for rather than what I say. How pathetic you don’t have self control, you are repressed. Very Taliban like.

    You are so immature that you demand that everyone only do as you command. You are like a two year year old with a high school vocabulary. OMG people are making personal decisions I don’t like, how dare they!!!!

  • You might have an argument if abortion didn’t happen in the bad old days of instilling irrational fear through pretending that an undetectable, psychopathic deity would love you so much that he’d send you to Hell.

    The facts destroy your wishful thinking.

    Where abortion is banned it simply goes underground, resulting in deaths due to insanitary conditions, inexpert procedures and self-harm. The moral way (so often the alternative to the religious way) is to reduce the need for abortion.

    Do you fear the freedom that, presumably, you were denied? Do you resent that youngsters don’t have the same artificial constraints that I (and you?) were subjected to?

    I’ll tell you why the secular world rejected God – God failed.

    This almighty God who worries about what we do with whom, where and when can’t (or won’t) sort out the awful mess it (some claim) created. Punishing the consequences of its decision to opt for human sexual reproduction is said to be more important than sorting real problems such as cancer, senility, blindness, hunger, lack of potable water, arthritis, mental illness etc. etc. etc..

    That God has its priorities wrong. That makes that God immoral and despicable – and more and more people in each succeeding generation are realising the incongruity inherent in the old ideas about god(s).

    God, a vague concept with no valid support from evidence or reason, used to be as good an answer to the unsolvable questions as any other – today those questions have fact and logic based answers – and those answers leave no room for a personal deity. The world is moving out of superstitious incredulousness towards rationality and critical scepticism. Slowly but surely – and it will be the better for the universe when we get there and discard the old, irrational, progress-resisting, once-useful,concepts that currently debase humanity.

  • Incel said wut? Anyone who can repeat the Taliban’s stance unironically like you do is neither an adult, nor mature.

    You are in no position to lecture anyone about adult sexual relations. You simply lack the maturity and knowledge which comes with experience. It us the whining of the ignorant. You are annoyed people make decisions without you. How sad. How immature.

  • Nazis banned abortion and we’re supported by “traditional Christians”.

    I am not the one demanding a sexual Gestapo. Run along Ayatollah Seeber

  • OMG he’s so swishy and SO afraid of women. We all are on a continuum regarding our gender ID. Pence has to fake it to fit in with macho Trump, but his hatred of gays belies a fascination if not obsession with homosexuality. He has repressed So much of his inner life/real self that he’s become a monster.

  • No. Just simply pointing out the fact that there would be no need for abortion if women took control of their own bodies as they claim to do.
    How about they be pro choice in the bedroom?

  • Because women can self impregnate according to your view of biology. All sex is consensual and all effective contraception is available in your mind.

    Still looking for the part where any of it is your concern. As far as I can tell, their bodies are not your concern ever. Their decision, never yours.

    Thank you for making it clear this has zero to do with concern for life and is nothing but s1utshaming.

  • See the Guttmacher Institute annual report on contraceptive use in the USA. Get back to us when you finish perusing said report.

  • Isaiah 10:1-2 (KJV) Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;
    To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!
    Psalms 106:37-38 (KJV) Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
    And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

    Genesis 9:5-6 (KJV) And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
    Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    Proverbs 30:14 (KJV) There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

    Psalms 94:6-10 (KJV) They slay the widow and the stranger, and murder the fatherless.
    Yet they say, The LORD shall not see, neither shall the God of Jacob regard it.
    Understand, ye brutish among the people: and ye fools, when will ye be wise?
    He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see?
    He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know?

    Proverbs 24:11-12 (KJV) If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
    If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

  • https://youtu.be/CNgwsT295G8.

    Beliefs are behind everything. Laws are based on beliefs, even laws supporting abortion and the laws of ancient cultures supporting human sacrifice. Recognize your belief system and your spilling of innocent blood based on your beliefs.

  • Well said. The world is growing up, moving ahead, advancing , maturing in understanding and wisdom and folks like ThomasA simply can’t deal with the idea.

  • What a silly little skit.

    Start with a false dichotomy and make…..what?

    Trivialising something that most responsible people see as a major ethical decision is like giving the enemy a stupid name (Jerry, Gook, Rat etc.) – it makes it easier to make difficult decisions without thinking about the consequences.

    Beliefs are not ultimately behind everything – that way you get to disregard evidence and reason – like YECs. Beliefs are usually simply the way to try to understand the facts behind them.

    Oh, and of course, even if beliefs were behind everything rather than an intermediate stage that doesn’t validate any particular belief. That would be like saying that because you don’t know how I used to travel to work space ships are real.

  • Interesting – I’d not spotted that previously. God even forgot who planted the seed – the man or the woman! Another inconsistency to extend the list.

    Mind you – if he had to remind himself not to wipe out life on Earth by putting a rainbow in the sky he must be good enough to realise that he’s getting past it mentally mustn’t he? Nice to know God and I have something in common I suppose – though rainbows are a bit beyond me – it’s just notes everywhere connected with food!

  • I’ve seen it. I consider it to be rank propaganda. Planned Parenthood owns the Guttmacher Institute and all of its statistics are suspect because of that corruption in their science.

    I find equal corruption in most for-profit science today, whether done by the energy industry, the tobacco industry, the alcohol industry, the manufacturers of illegal drugs, or the abortion industry.

    It’s all garbage at best with very questionable predetermined conclusions.

  • Obviously you hadn’t.

    The text clearly identifies the Conquerer as HER seed. Nor is it the only scriptural reference to a woman’s seed. Which neatly disposes of the rest of your argument.

    And the rainbow was a signature, not a reminder. The word translated “remember” also means “to be mindful of” — iow, to purposefully honor one’s commitment.

  • How do you know he is having sex? If so, he is having sex with his “Mother”. Is that traditional sexuality?

  • Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion as to how others should act. That’s about it. Its a good thing nobody has to abide by your religious beliefs or can be compelled to follow them.

  • I never head that story before. But it is funny as hell. Mostly that such a rumor would not only come out but be big enough to garner the attention of snopes. Meethinks he doth protest too much.

  • Respecting a woman’s choices for her body is minding one’s own business. In truth nobody has to give a crap about your opinion on the issue of abortion. It is never going to be your choice to make.

  • If you didn’t want to control anything, you would not be trying to enforce your silly version of self-accountability. Trying to make pregnancy a punishment. You want to control women as your personal property. If you didn’t you wouldn’t chime in on the subject at all in such a manner. Poor Pathetic Parker is annoyed women are making decisions about their bodies that you don’t like. How sad.

  • Choosing to have an abortion IS taking personal responsibility. You have no part in the choice or the matter. Nobody asked you, nobody needs your approval here. You are sticking your nose where it does not belong.

  • Responsibile behavior = no abortion.
    Irresponsible behavior = abortion.
    Pretty simple equation. Even you can understand it; but liberals aren’t big on personal responsibility.
    They like to do what they want; get in a bind; blame everyone else for their situation; and then ask the government to bail them out.

  • “Which neatly disposes of the rest of your argument.” No it doesn’t . It questions my argument but also questions the text’s consistency. I suppose, were one unable to accept that the text might be flawed that would be enough – but an inability to question simply increases the likelihood of erroneous conclusions. You’ve in no way justified treating women as “incubators” – which was my main point.

    As to whether the silly story about how rainbows occur (in reality a natural property of the differential refraction of light within water droplets) is a reminder or a memorial – what was an imaginative attempt to explain a natural phenomenon is, nowadays, a silly story. That’s understandable but destroys the idea that every word in the Bible is God given – one has to assume that he would know that the story wasn’t true doesn’t one? The major point being that a god who realised it did something so terrible that it changed its mind and decided not to repeat the horror would be a nutter – a remorseful nutter maybe – but nonetheless a (by, according to the text, its own admission) wicked unstable entity.

    I don’t get “The text clearly identifies the Conquerer (sic) as HER seed”. I don’t see how that follows from the text I read – I’m not even sure who or what you are calling the Conqueror (the claimed Christ maybe?). Can you clarify please.

  • You’re a nutbag, Theodore. I’ve been married 32 years, so there. Go have sex with your mother.

  • Where does the text state that God realized He did something terrible or changed His mind? It simply states that the event was not going to occur again until the time of the end. God has other plans.

    The passage about the woman’s seed (who would normally be referred to as the seed of His father, and also as “they” and not a “he”) who would crush the head of the serpent is, yes, generally understood as an early prophecy of the Messiah who would restore the creation design. Anyone who is not familiar with that point is not particularly well-equipped to make arguments from scripture, so I will not go far down that road with you. But your point was not so much to refute the idea of the female body’s function as incubator (which is simply a fact of biology) as to take an uninformed pot-shot at the truth of scripture, which spoke of “woman’s seed” and the mingling of two (germ cells) into one flesh at a time when the rest of the world knew nothing of it.

    Please study scripture before you take it on. Have a nice day.

  • By the same reasoning choosing to murder an -sshole IS taking personal responsibility.

    It improves the word if you’re successful and at least the victim might be able to defend him or herself.

  • That’s nice, but not true at all. Responsible behavior is making the best decision concerning what goes on in your body.

    I am still not getting the part where you have any say in the matter or its your concern at all. Since it isn’t your body and she isn’t your property to command. You don’t like women having abortions? Tough crap. Who cares? You are not part of the equation here. Its not your concern or something you have a rightful say in the matter.

    “and then ask the government to bail them out.”

    The only one asking for the government to intervene here is you. You are demanding that women become property of the state the moment they get pregnant. I am simply saying she has every right to make choices on such matters.

  • Parker, there isn’t a position from you which isn’t a demented concept.

    I fail to see how you are the arbiter of what is responsible behavior or why anyone should care. Its not your body. Its none of your business.

  • So why do you believe in the literal words of the Bible which is propaganda written by Jewish scribes (Moses was a myth by the way), four authors with unknown backgrounds and one disenchanted Jewish rabbi/tentmaker?

  • Of course I thought I heard a noise, with roughly the level of intelligence and pertinence one would expect from a potato if it could talk, but certainly nothing that requires a response.

  • I want to free them- I want to free them from the real slavery of denying motherhood to become just another wage slave for the capitalist pigs. I want to save them from poisoning themselves with fake medicines that cause cancer like birth control pills do. I want to save them from horrific, barbaric abortions that injure and kill them.

    It’s feminism that is against women.

  • I don’t. I believe in the evidence before my own eyes. Planned Parenthood and the Guttmacher Institute have been the pawns of the sex slavery business for over 60 years, killing people just so that the pimps they provide services for can get more money. I see the genocidal mania in people like you who pretend that your conclusions are rational when they’re really just rank bigotry against people you hate. You are no better than anybody else, in fact, you’re quite a bit worse.

    I have no need to refer to the Bible when your own bigotry against the unwanted speaks volumes as to the evil you espouse.

  • Being from Oregon myself, of course there are very few people there!! It’s very dry, as is eastern WA.
    Looking at Antartcica, one doesn’t see the millions crowding Mexico City either.
    There are over a dozen modern cities of more than 10 millions each.

  • I would in fact say that the problem is centralized urbanization, not overpopulation.

    And in good ‘Gonie political terms, that is also shown on the subjects of abortion, euthanasia, and welfare in the urban/rural divide in voting patterns. Urban people think everybody is overpopulated just because they are, and they don’t even realize that there are many towns and villages now offering homesteading contracts because of massive population shrinkage.

    Thanks to abortion, the United States has been at or under ZPG for a couple of decades now. And Europe is even worse, as is Japan.

  • I just realized I never answered your final question:

    Because abuse causes great harm in our society and our world. And divorce is in and of itself abusive and should never be allowed.

  • The reality of sex, abortion, contraception and STD/HIV control: – from an atheist guy who enjoys intelligent sex-

    The Brutal Effects of Stupidity:

    : The failures of the widely used birth “control” methods i.e. the Pill (8.7% actual failure rate) and male con-dom (17.4% actual failure rate) have led to the large rate of abortions and STDs in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the Pill or condoms properly and/or use safer methods in order to reduce the epidemics of abortion and STDs.- Failure rate statistics provided by the Guttmacher Institute. Unfortunately they do not give the statistics for doubling up i.e. using a combination of the Pill and a condom.

    Added information before making your next move:

    “Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) remain a major public health challenge in the United States. While substantial progress has been made in preventing, diagnosing, and treating certain STDs in recent years, CDC estimates that approximately 19 million new infections occur each year, almost half of them among young people ages 15 to 24.1 In addition to the physical and psychological consequences of STDs, these diseases also exact a tremendous economic toll. Direct medical costs associated with STDs in the United States are estimated at up to $14.7 billion annually in 2006 dollars.” ($16 billion in recent dollars)
    See also: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/26/opinion/bolan-sexual-health/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

    Then there is this:

    “Adolescents don’t think oral sex is something to worry about (even though is becoming a major cause of throat cancer),” said Bonnie Halpern-Felsher professor of pediatrics at the University of California, San Francisco. “They view it as a way to have intimacy without having ‘sex.'” (Maybe it should be called the Bill Clinton Syndrome !!)

    Obviously, political leaders in both parties, Planned Parenthood, parents, the “stupid part of the USA” and the educational system have failed miserably on many fronts.

  • Exodus 32:14 indicates God changed his mind. It’s fun to see the apologetic websites twist themselves trying to state the what the verse says is the exact opposite of what it means.

  • How could abortion be an offense against god when IT requires abortion in Numbers 5:11-29 when a fetus has been conceived in an adulterous relationship and doesn’t recognize a fetus as life in Exodus 21:21-23?

  • Americans actually believe in Adam and Eve and that the Earth is 6,000 years old? America is in more trouble than I thought.

  • The mythological god doesn’t recognize a fetus as life in Exodus 21:21-23 and condones abortion in Numbers 5:11-29.

  • But aren’t all those little fetuses in heaven today and for eternity with their Savior Jesus. Why would anyone oppose this outcome?

  • Yes, the merciful (?) and loving (?) god who, after supposedly given Moses the commandment “Thou shalt not kill.” commanded the Hebrews to kill every man, woman, and child in Canaan to purify the land. Just imagine what IT would do if you pissed IT off.

  • Christians have become apologists for the evil and destructive acts of their gods so apologizing/overlooking the reprehensible, immoral, and divisive acts of the Liar-in-Chief has become second nature for them.

  • Nobody was talking about the age of the earth, on which I have my own thoughts. But you got in your dig, which I suppose is all that matters.

  • There are several passages which say that God relented from this or that course, usually upon the entreaty of someone He favored — and it did no always turn out well, from which we may draw lessons. This is not one of them.

  • A fetus is considered property of the father or in some cases grandfather. If accidentally killed by striking the mother, the offender has to pay a fine.

  • “Grow in knowledge and wisdom”? Can he do that while he’s paying hush money to his mistresses?

  • Japan’s shrinking birth rate is the result of multiple factors. I know, because that’s where I live. Boiling it down to legalized abortion is simplistic.

  • “I want to save them from poisoning themselves with fake medicines that cause cancer like birth control pills do.”

    Now that’s interesting. Do you also believe that the wombs of women who take the pill are filled with thousands of dead embryos? Kevin Swanson tried pushing that junk science about 5 or 6 years ago.

    “It’s feminism that is against women.”

    Yeah, helping grown women do things like vote, and get an education, and receive equal pay for equal work. Those eeee-vil feminists. How dare they?

    (Insert sarcasm as needed above.)

  • The video is sarcastic, making a point about the idiocy of BELIEFS that claim human rights begin at birth. My point was that BELIEFS were behind laws, governments, and actions.
    Of course there is reality, beliefs which are true, and beliefs which are false, but science as we know it, will never give you moral truth or even a scale on which to measure moral truth.
    People don’t spill the blood of their children, without strong beliefs about how people will be blessed by doing so. I posted the video to help you recognize your current dependence on beliefs and belief systems.
    If you want to argue law, what is and what should be, you must argue beliefs. If you are unwilling to argue beliefs, you can’t even have a seat at the table.
    If you believe a baby should receive human rights as soon as he or she takes their first breath, recognize your belief and give me facts to back up why you believe abortion isn’t murder. Don’t try to come to the table pretending my position, is based on faith(theocratic) and that yours is not.
    The woman dismembering her child in the womb is taking a huge leap of faith in a Satanic belief system and people who allow it, even sanctioning and protecting abortion with the state are also acting in faith.

    Psalms 106:37-38 (KJV) Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
    And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

  • https://youtu.be/4Ka-Zg4tlLE

    Isaiah 49:25-26 (KJV) But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
    And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

    Malachi 4:6 (KJV) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

  • You might wish to acquaint yourself with the words for what you’re speaking about in Aramaic.

  • Mafaa 21. We know what Planned Parenthood and the Guttmacher Institute, originally funded by the KKK, are all about. That ship has sailed. Liberals are genocidal maniacs.

  • No, I was going on how he presents himself.
    I didn’t even think of that.
    You do know that ‘conversion therapy’ is not valid or even responsible to recommend?

  • Still not a child. The Bible puts the value of a fetus as property and certainly less than a person’s worth. The penalty for assault which causes miscarriage is a fine paid to the father or grandfather.

  • My arguments in this arena have nothing to do with the Bible, and everything to do with the genocidal bigotry of people like you. I do not need the Bible to show that a genocide of 60 million Americans merely because of bigotry is wrong.

  • They do not since none of them prevent pregnancy all the time and their use increases promiscuity. Also, contraceptives are harmful to the health of the user and some of them actually cause silent abortions,i.e. the Pill and the IUD. The Pill also harms the environment by polluting waterways and malforming fish. Sex education is also useless, since it is like trying to teach geese how to fly south. It is instinctive.

  • Got anything to back up this junk science of yours, or are you just yanking these “facts” out of a hat?

  • Does that include the all the Jewish men who divorced their foreign wives in the time of Ezra, and left their kids to twist in the wind? Talk about deadbeat dads — they take the prize.

    And does this mean you disagree with Jesus (who allowed divorce in the case of sexual betrayal) and Paul (who allowed in the case of abandonment)?

  • Yes to the first, no to the second. I find myself on the side of spouses who are abandoned and betrayed. HOWEVER- I also recognize that there is heroic virtue in avoiding remarriage in these situations, and in forgiveness rather than divorce. A heroic virtue I hope I will exhibit should I ever be faced with either.

  • Considering that you’re supporting genocidal mania, yes, the effects of stupidity are indeed brutal. You’re on the side of Margaret Sanger and Adolf Hitler in this.

  • Nice crawfishin’. To get an abortion is to take personal responsibility. They ain’t free. Thank you for your converting to a respectable pro-choice position.

  • Gen 8:21 “neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done”

    It was OK – it never (not – until a later date) will be. That is a change of mind.

    “is, yes, generally understood as an early prophecy of the Messiah who would restore the creation design.” I other words – in an after the fact attempt at explaining something that doesn’t, as it stands, make any sense we are going to claim it is a prophecy. Do you study Nostradamus as well?

  • Care to state which you think that is?

    As a reasoned response it’s not very good is it?

    I offer logic based on historic fact and your best shot is a “There’s a dsm category for you”.

    FAIL

  • To be fair – it must be very frightening to realise that ideas that you have invested time/effort/money in are incapable of rational defence.

  • A recent study, apparently, found that around 50% of Americans believe that the world was created as it is less than 10K years ago, c.40% believe it to be older but as created by their God – and 10% are right!

  • I’ll grant you that the “seed of the woman” probably didn’t make any sense in the two millenia before Christ. Now that we know exactly what female germ cells are, it does. Funny that. 😏

  • “The hormonal contraceptive usually stops the body from ovulating. Hormonal contraceptives also change the cervical mucus to make it difficult for the sperm to go through the cervix and find an egg. Hormonal contraceptives can also prevent pregnancy by changing the lining of the womb so it’s unlikely the fertilized egg will be implanted. from ”
    “:https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills#1 List of Class I carcinogens from American Cancer Society :https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills#1 Estrogen-progesterone oral contraceptives (combined) Same goes for World Health Organization combined hormonal contraceptives are Class I carcinogens. My niece had a brain clot at 24 from taking it! She almost died and had to go on blood thinners!!!.Just do some research and dig. Consider th sources too. Those who profit from the sale of contraceptives hide information and do not tell all the details. The package insert from the Pill was removed in the 80s because it was deemed ‘too much information for women’ and could lead them to not take it! In other words women could read that they could get a blood clot even at 24!

  • You are misreading that..Abortion was never commanded by God! That is a ritual atonement for a suspected sin like adultery.

  • They displeased and offended God by doing that. Pagan worship involves killing the children. That was not the Jewish worship.

  • Contraceptive use increases abortions.Since promiscuity increases and since no contraceptive prevents pregnancy 100% of time, unexpected pregnancies do occur because of the false advertising about contraceptives: that they prevent pregnancy all the time! Only abstinence and castration are 100%! Pregnancy is normally a very healthful event. Stem cells from the baby stay in the mother and fight cancer in the mom for the rest of her life. Mothers’ IQ scores go up, too.

  • It isn’t about “rational defense” it is simply about any kind of defense. The Conservative is moved more by primal gut instincts/emotions. Rationality requires control of those things.The issues are much more visceral.

    Conservatives are black and white thinkers. Everything is either right, TRUE, good and the work of GOD or wrong, Lies and the work of the Devil. To ever admit that anypart of their belief system is wrong would be to admit that everything they believe is wrong and thus the work of the Devil NOT the work of their God.

  • You’re mistaken. Numbers 5:11-29, “When a married woman goes astray and is unfaithful to her husband…The priest must bring her forward and set her before the Lord…may the Lord make an example of you among your people…let this ordeal-water that tests under pain of curse enter your body, bringing upon you miscarriage and untimely death.” God requires abortion whenever a fetus has been conceived in an adulterous relationship.

  • Perhaps you are able to back up your kindergarten playground level response with something more substantial.

    Why not start with something suitably simple – what ideas of mine do you think are incapable of rational defence?

  • Non sequitur. So you claim, then, to have an abortion is somehow to not be responsible? How so? Show your work. Quit speaking in riddles.

    I’ve found members of the right-wing seem to just loooove this verb, “to twist.” A friend in 4th grade had a Mother who was a religious nut and claimed the 1962 dance craze “The Twist” was a “na-a-a-a-asty dance.” When someone cites scripture to counter some right-wing meme they claim their disagreers are “twisting scripture.” Now here you are with your “twisted sense.” See, here’s the thing: that’s just your opinion, Man. It’s not supported by any evidence. I think your ilk loves that verb because it relieves you of any responsibility to your fellow beings. The problem is not those you you feel you are better than. The problem is the person you see in the mirror.

  • Murder of the innocent is wrong.
    If you want to call murder “responsibly”; so be it – not in my world.
    Lucky for you your mom was irresponsible.

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