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A transgender priest finds a new life helping others on the margins

Mother Gillian Klee celebrates Mass with a small group of guests at Constance Abbey, a refuge for the homeless in Memphis. RNS photo by Karen Pulfer Focht

MEMPHIS, Tenn. (RNS) — In the makeshift chapel at Constance Abbey, an Episcopal way station for the homeless here, Mother Gillian Klee celebrated the Eucharist one morning for a small group of guests and staff.

Klee’s hands trembled as she blessed the bread and wine, an unaccustomed nervousness for an Episcopal priest who has performed the ritual hundreds of times in parishes across the mid-South.

But Klee has only rarely celebrated Mass since retiring abruptly in 2010 from St. Stephens Church in Blytheville, Ark., rather than tell the congregation she had begun sex-hormone therapy to transition from bearded George Klee into Gillian, George’s long-held alter ego.

Since then, she had been on a “supply” list of priests available to fill in for priests on leave or vacation. But in the conservative Diocese of West Tennessee, the phone never rang.

“It’s not the bishop that keeps me from celebrating,” Klee said. “It’s just that no one called me up, not in a long time.”

Then, in 2017, Klee ran into Roger and Margery Wolcott at an LGBT conference at an Episcopal camp in Mississippi and was invited to serve as chaplain at Constance Abbey, the New Monastic community the Wolcotts had founded in two century-old brick houses near St. Mary’s Episcopal Cathedral.

“It feels wonderful to have an altar again,” Klee said. “It’s wonderful to have a place again. I am getting to know those folks, and getting to like them.”

Besides serving Communion and leading prayer services on Monday and Thursday mornings, Klee leads a roughly 30-minute course on human sexuality for the abbey’s guests, after a scuffle between straight and transgender people broke out recently on the grounds.

“I feel sort of a mother-of-the-bride proud,” said Roger, a retired investment banker who relocated with Margery to Memphis from San Francisco. “First of all, Gillian is a friend, so I am happy she can be our chaplain. I’m happy that a transgender priest can be welcome in this city, in this place.”

As someone who has lived for the past eight years as an outsider, Klee is, Roger pointed out, a fitting spiritual leader for those the Wolcotts hope to serve in the gritty neighborhood behind the cathedral. The abbey is named after a nun who stayed in Memphis during the 1878 yellow fever epidemic to nurse the poor.

Mother Gillian Klee is now the chaplain at Constance Abbey, a refuge for the homeless in Memphis. Until last year, Klee rarely celebrated Mass since retiring in 2010.  RNS photo by Karen Pulfer Focht

Klee wears sensible shoes and shades of peach lipstick and red fingernail polish. Her blond hair frames her face and flips gently under. She’s one of those women who’s had her colors done and seemingly has a closet full of the right ones.

Because she began taking female hormones late in life, she will always have the voice and build of a man.

“The older you are, the slower the therapy works, which is a sad thing,” said Martha Klee, Gillian’s longtime wife.

Gillian and Martha live, as they have since they married in 1991, in an apartment in East Memphis. They make quarterly trips to St. Louis to see the endocrinologist and psychologist who facilitated this far-reaching change in their lives. Instead of husband and wife, they live now as two women, sometimes feeling the need to let new acquaintances know they are not lesbians.

“I expect to be with Martha for the rest of my life,” Klee said, though she admitted to dreaming occasionally she could be a man’s wife.

“That’s never going to happen. But, we all have dreams that aren’t going to happen,” she said.

Klee was raised Baptist in Memphis and winces as she talks about the pressure as a child to “act tough like a boy.” She always felt she didn’t fit in. As early as age 13, she considered suicide.

Klee graduated from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., in 1972, prepared to serve as a Baptist minister, but in the mid-1970s she left her childhood church. “I was liberal and war had been declared by the Southern Baptist Convention against liberal church and liberal clergy,” she said.

She worked for a few years with a consortium of churches around the University of Memphis that included St. John’s Episcopal, and Klee began attending.

She found an openness she hadn’t seen in the Baptist church. “I felt more accepted in the Episcopal Church. Having been a theater major and taking music appreciation, it all fit — the pageantry, the music,” she said.

Mother Gillian Klee retired in 2010 from St. Stephens Church in Blytheville, Ark., as she began her transition from being a male, George Klee, into a female, Gillian. She is now the chaplain at Constance Abbey, a refuge for the homeless in Memphis. RNS photo by Karen Pulfer Focht

Klee was ordained an Episcopal priest in 1984 and for the next 20 years served Episcopal parishes across Tennessee.

When, in 2006, Klee was chosen to serve St. Stephens in Blytheville, it was a dream come true. The congregation was small, but the community was a “real cultural surprise.”

“They had an active theater company, a community chorus that did great programs,” Klee said. “I taught world religions at the junior college, and I was also part of the theater group.”

But all was not right. For most of her years in ministry, Klee often suffered a debilitating depression, which would intensify during Lent, the six weeks before Easter when Christians examine how they have fallen short or need to change.

At St. Stephens, the depression eased to the point that it cropped up only in Lent. But Klee remembers having to will herself out of bed. In the last years before her transition, she could barely attend to the suffering of others during Lent.

“I could have been a more effective priest as my whole self,” she said.

By 2010, her life was a widening pool of anxiety. Martha, worried that the pain was too much, suggested that Klee resign.

The decision to start hormone therapy “was an act of courage,” said Klee, but “I have very little choice. The alternative was to continue with the depression.”

Being married to Gillian, not George, was also a profound change for Martha, and one she was not prepared for. Her introduction to her new life had come when Klee, leaving for a church convention, tossed a book on transgender transformations at her.

“She said, ‘We’ll talk about this when I get back,’’’ said Martha. “I was furious.”

For the next two years Klee saw her doctors frequently. When the hormone therapy began, Martha said, “The doctor tried her best to make sure that I knew what was going on and that there was not any inadvertent damage.

“I knew the relationship was going to have to fall apart and be put back together.”

Mother Gillian Klee enters Constance Abbey, a refuge for the homeless in Memphis. RNS photo by Karen Pulfer Focht

Klee also had to face the church. Upon returning to Memphis, Klee went to visit Don Johnson, the bishop of West Tennessee, hoping to find a place to serve. As it happened, the bishop’s wife was selling makeup. Johnson had her help Klee.

“He paid for it,” Klee said. “I was surprised. It was such a gesture from the bishop. Since then, he has said he is proud I live in his diocese  because we have a reputation for being conservative.”

“Gillian is a committed priest of the church, a fine Celtic scholar and a person of courage for squarely facing into what it means to live out her transgender identity,” said Johnson, who has known Klee for more than two decades.

“I do not claim to understand the full implications of the intricacies of this courageous act of personal discernment,” he said. But “I pray that opportunities for her to use her gifts for ministry will open for her as God leads the way.”

For now, Klee has found a place in the only church in the diocese that has neither steeple nor membership, and therefore little chance to offend.

“As a transgender woman, I’m misunderstood by the largest part of society,” she said, “and the people who we minister to are misunderstood because people think it’s their fault they are on the street.”

About the author

Jane Roberts

441 Comments

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  • I strongly suspect that all the homeless people who are being served by Mother Klee don’t give a fig about her gender. All they know is that someone who represents Jesus is caring for them in their hour of need. Isn’t that what Jesus told us we should all do?

    But to think that all this time religion has been preaching that we’re supposed to look beyond external superficialities and see deep within to a person’s true soul in order to appreciate who they really are as a child of God. But the very instant that exterior reality changes the least little bit religious folk throw throw a conniption, cross their wittle arms, and skulk off, taking their marbles with them. So much for, “whatsoever you did unto the least of these you did unto me.”

    Jesus would not be proud of some people’s reactions to Mother Klee.

  • I have no doubt Jesus would have welcomed that ill person who thinks he is a she but he would have never have allowed him to be a priest. No one is discounting that persons hospitality.

  • You should have stopped with the first paragraph; it was a very good point that all would have agreed upon. Instead you chose to take a dig at those who don’t agree with with the LGBTQ way of life.

    So let’s examine George further:

    1) George pledged his love and his life to his wife – for life. He took vows to protect, defend, love and cherish HER. To completely give himself to her. NOT to serve himself or his fleshly desires.
    And how does George treat his wife of X number of years? How does he disclose one of his most personal thoughts to the person that should know everything? He tosses a book at her on transgender transformations on his way out the door to a convention! Total cowardly, selfish and all around dick move.
    2) impact on George’s wife – she has to explain constantly that she’s not a lesbian, has dreams that she’s married to a man and tells people that “not all dreams happen”. Great move George, not only are you confused and depressed, but now she can be confused and depressed too.
    3) George feels guilt around Lent and Easter – I wonder why. Conflict between right and wrong maybe? Conflict between George’s way and God’s way? Conflict between the flesh and will? Conflict of doing what George wants and to hell with his wife?

    Thanks E.

  • This sort of thing would not be happening if people would recognize that God has male genitals just like the holy control freaks tell us.

  • There are six viable DNA combinations a person can be conceived with and live with 4 of which can cause gender confusions. There are indeed people whose DNA itself creates the physical result of transgenderism. There are of course others who through social influence and personal decision decide they are transgendered. These are really two separate birds, and one cannot tell one bird from the next based on information like in this article. The reality is a spectrum, people with real biological issues, people with psychological issues, people who for whatever reason have jumped on the bandwagon of the newest novelty.

  • There are of course others who through social influence and personal decision decide they are transgendered…people who for whatever reason have jumped on the bandwagon of the newest novelty.

    Pure BS of the smelliest kind. Move on and quit the cheap pretense that you are educated in such matters.

  • Yes, and both birds need help.

    The second type needs psychological help.

    As for the first bird, perhaps some day some kind of genetic therapy, etc., will be discovered which can successfully treat their condition. There’s no telling what modern science may be able to do!

  • Or we are just recognizing a human reality, and it is just one more thing that mightily upsets the 2000 year old beliefs of believers who cannot conceive that the world is different than they believe.

    As for a fad? Go through what any trans person goes through on a daily basis before you triviaize the lives of people you dont know. And then talk about the years of medical procedures, medicine, and dealing with the bigots in paragraph 1.

  • “those who don’t agree with with the LGBTQ way of life.”

    A euphemism for treating them as less than human. Trying to justify bigotry, malice, ostracism and discrimination of people for existing.

    I didn’t have to do more then glance at your post to see the hateful garbage for what it was.

    Your concern for her wife is phony. Of course there was deep and long discussions between them on the matter. Not like you really care, its just an excuse to attack like a rabid dog. Gender reassignment is a slow laborious process. One has to put their affairs in order and undergo major psych evaluation before even being approved for the procedure.

    But whatever, any excuse to vent your prejudices, amirite?

  • Why is what an Episcopal priest does any business of mine, or anyone else’s? Her sexuality is between her and her wife, and her ministry is between her and the people who seem to want it.

  • Another subject you feel the need to spout off in dishonestly. Transgender has been recognized as a condition for decades. The first gender reassignment was done nearly 60 years ago. It is hardly a recent “bandwagon’.

  • Considering that the temple story is one of driving capitalists out, who were there with the blessings of the high priests, I’d guess not.

  • So you agree with his crap about transgendered people? Then you’re not the ally that I thought that you were Tater.

  • Thomas Reese, perhaps the only Jesuit who can make James Martin look halfway masculine, posted this article on his Twitter page, so apparently it’s going over big with you apostate pseudo-Catholics.

  • Doesn’t sound like affairs were put in order. George treated his wife no better than the average wife beater.
    But please; continue to celebrate his selfish decision to ruin his wife’s life.

  • And that’s a key issue right there: “The Pronoun Wars.”

    Trying to normalize transgenderism, trying to remove the “disorder” from Gender Identity Disorder, by playing games with pronouns. Sheesh.

    Calling “he” a “she”, calling “she” a “he”, as if Genesis and Jesus were lying about the origin and nature of humanity. Gotta blur those lines.

    You’ll notice that even the RNS writer plays this specific game (and in fact most ALL journalists are now expected to play this game — if they don’t wanna get in trouble.)

  • Sounds like you are looking for a pretext to hate.

    After your first line about “agree with LGBTQ lifestyle”, you pretty much let the cat out of the bag and declared how you were going to react here. There is no “lifestyle” here there is life. You are looking to hate people for existing. You made that perfectly clear. Your “concern” is nonsense.

  • Nope. E framed the discussion with his second paragraph and made that an issue.
    I guess you agree with how his wife was treated and still has to live; giving up her life for the selfish desires of the man she married.
    I guess spousal abuse isn’t spousal abuse if it’s for the cause.

  • People grow. People change. Oftentimes within marriages people grow and change in a manner that divides them one from another and they divorce due to “irreconcilable differences.” Since the divorce rate is still hovering around 50% these days, I’d hardly say Mother Klee’s marriage would be that out of the ordinary if her wife chose to divorce her over irreconcilable differences. So if you want to lecture people over the dissolution of their marriages due to irreconcilable differences then you’ll be lecturing quite a lot of people. Go for it.

  • wow…If I identify with superman and put on blue tights and a cape… I still can’t fly! She may “identify” with being a priest and a “woman” but her DNA would disagree and Christ would disagree on her “priesthood”.

  • Unlike yourself, I am not looking for excuses to hate. You made it clear it was your intention from the beginning. I find your concern here disingenuous. Nothing more than pretext. So I do not expect you to treat the issue honestly or in good faith.

    They had a while to work this out. They clearly have come to an arrangement. BTW as you are the supporter of a serial adulterer in public office, I find your concern for the state of the marriage here utterly laughable.

  • Her eyes look very sad. She should continue her medical sessions to help her before trying to help others. This is confusing to her, so how can she expect to help others?

  • The sign says “welcome, all safe” it’s commendable to help the needy but she is not making anyone safe from the wrath of God.On the contrary, she raises the temperature of the earth by abusing the Word.

  • Yes, by controlling the language they influence and control how people are supposed to think about the topic. Mind control through policing our speech.

  • How sad. Confused people.

    The news article? Search for the dramatic, divisive, weird. like a bad strain of NPR news always the quirky.

  • ??? judging from a photograph or three is useless . you don’t know what was happening that day when the shots were taken . you know little but that you think that she should be sad . which in itself is sad that you judge that way .

  • And this helps….how? You’re really no better than the people you hate for “hating” the things you love.

  • A 68 year old man who decides to have science give him hormones, breast implants and several vials of botox is not science. Its highly elective plastic surgery. If that man is Bruce Jenner and takes a blind blood test…Science will say its a man’s blood. If they dig up his bones some day.. His pelvis will identify him as a man with silicone implants. Science is rational. The world has lost its reason.

    ‘Word”, “Discourse”, or “Reason” is a name or title of Jesus Christ, derived from the prologue to the Gospel of John. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. God is Reason. Man obviously is not.

  • The only people Jesus drove from the Temple were the money changers, the equivalent of modern payday lenders and sub-prime mortgage lenders. This woman does not fit the profile of who Jesus drove from the Temple.

  • Maybe so but the ancient Jews had six genders:

    Zachar/זָכָר: This term is derived from the word for a pointy sword and refers to a phallus. It is usually translated as “male” in English.

    Nekeivah/נְקֵבָה: This term is derived from the word for a crevice and probably refers to a vaginal opening. It is usually translated as “female” in English.

    Androgynos/אַנְדְּרוֹגִינוֹס: A person who has both “male” and “female” sexual characteristics. 149 references in Mishna and Talmud (1st-8th Centuries CE); 350 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes (2nd -16th Centuries CE).

    Tumtum/ טֻומְטוּם A person whose sexual characteristics are indeterminate or obscured. 181 references in Mishna and Talmud; 335 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes.

    Ay’lonit/איילונית: A person who is identified as “female” at birth but develops “male” characteristics at puberty and is infertile. 80 references in Mishna and Talmud; 40 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes.

    Saris/סריס: A person who is identified as “male” at birth but develops “female” characteristics as puberty and/or is lacking a penis. A saris can be “naturally” a saris (saris hamah), or become one through human intervention (saris adam). 156 references in mishna and Talmud; 379 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes.

    ww.sojourngsd.org/blog/sixgenders

  • if dna were our sole destiny then we would not do artificial things to prevent cancers in the dna, or to prevent heart attacks or strokes when they are aggravated by natural defects . we would not do anything to change the natural outcome of the way we were born . yet we do so much to prevent genetic and birth defects from hurting a person’s future .

    but dna is not the end point of our destiny . it is only the starting point .

    “…and Christ would disagree on her “priesthood”.

    as the christ never said anything of the sort, i am going to suggest that you don’t know that to be true .

  • What would be the purpose of a DNA test? It wouldn’t change her life one iota. Why is it so hard for people like you to accept that not everyone is just like you?

  • Christ came not to change the Law ( not one letter) that includes Deuteronomy which is also supported by St. Paul and the Fathers of the Church.

    If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.”– St. Augustine

  • Sounds like she isn’t confused at all.

    The anti trans people, on the other hand, posting on these very pages, however, seem unable to confront reality.

  • Name calling and using God’s name in vain is reserved for people you can’t argue with facts or reason

  • If 2000 years of Christian history, including wars, murder, torture, burning people alive, justifying slavery, protecting child molesting priests, obscene wealth, prosperity gospel huckster, trump mulligans, and a host of other ills didn’t excite the wrath of god…

    I doubt that one lone priest serving the poor, as Jesus suggested, pRobably won’t.

  • Your url is a dead link.

    No matter. Your source is defective.

    Halacha does not recognize six genders. It recognizes two genders, male and female.

    It does recognize gender ambiguity. This ambiguity
    is defined according to physical presentation (or lack thereof) and
    primary and secondary sexual characteristics.

    The concepts of a Tumtum – a person of ambiguous gender – is dealt with, as is the concept of the androgynos – a person with characteristics of both sexes.

    That doesn’t make six genders.

    This is all done in a legal context since the rights and duties of the two sexes are different.

  • and my guess is that the last four were considered abnormalities just like any other possible abnormality.

  • “It wouldn’t change HIS life one iota.”

    But it would demonstrate the propriety of referring to Klee with the correct pronouns: he, him, his (unlike the author of this article.).

  • You don’t have any idea what is “correct”. Your lack of empathy and understanding makes you less than a Christian, and more of a sociopath.

  • The most important part of this story is that someone took it upon themselves to serve the needs of homeless people. That makes her a better person than any of the self-righteous, sanctimonious jerks passing themselves off as Christians below.

  • Who’s lynching nominees? Stop hiding their court records. What are you afraid of the public finding out?

  • Not according to Johns Hopkins University, which rejects his science-denial. How does he even keep a job?

  • I have to agree with you on this one. Uncivil discourse never helps anyone or their cause. Chalk it up to a lifetime’s worth of hurt and pain. But still…

  • The correct pronouns for a man are indeed: he, him, his.

    Did you drop out of school too early to learn that, or are you just not that far along in your ESL class?

  • When people are condemned as “bigots” for refusing to call a man a woman, then it indeed affects us.

  • Not a single one has been born with both functioning.

    The one that functions wins.

    If none function…then the one with Y wins. And there are many other differentiating tests.

    It’s certainly not “feelings”. Gracious, what a bunch of hooey..

  • “The one that functions wins. If none function…then the one with Y wins.”

    Why, because you said so? Well I suppose that settles it then.

  • Gillian, the priest, said that she sometimes dreamt about being married to a man — not her spouse Martha. The article does not contain the “not all dreams happen” line. They obviously love each other. I doubt your marriage, if you’re in one, is perfect either.

  • The average wife beater assaults his wife. Whatever this priest’s faults may have been, he didn’t come anywhere near that and your comparison is ridiculous. No one’s life was ruined.

  • Actually it does. Because one group seeks to wipe out people they hate and have taken numerous steps to do so. The other is reacting to that sentiment. There is no equivalence. Merely an action and a likely reaction.

    Charlotte may be excited and uncivil, but she is not seeking to remove entire classes of people from society.

  • Over the years I’ve encountered many older gay and lesbian people who were forced into heterosexual marriages in order to fit in. While the true object of their desire was obviously for a person of the same sex I do believe that they came to love their mates in much the same way that straight couples who no longer have sex love each other. That is not to say that I think gay people these days ought to marry a person of the opposite sex – far from it – it’s just that in life we sometimes have to make do with the reality that has been dealt to us as best we can, and for some people they actually found love in ways they might not have at first expected.

  • Of course it’s not new.

    Sexual abnormalities aren’t imaginary.

    This a different matter than the modern “gender identity” issue in the article.

  • He’s happy. YOU’RE sad.

    Says worlds about you, dunnit? Someone else’s life choices that have no effect on you except to irritate you— irritate you.

  • One’s sex is not one’s choice! The decay of the mind. Maybe engaging in odd sex causes a decay of the frontal lobe.

  • The spud dino below who keeps after you with name calling and accusations about hate etc… he/she/it won’t ever relent. Wouldn’t say it’s a losing battle, just a tiresome one because it goes on and on and on……………………..to forever.

  • too bad people grow and change into something which is worse than when they began growing. You would hope virtue and truth would be the end result.

  • Interesting that science itself disagrees with your point.

    In the last 50 years more and more physiological systems and processes show marked differences between males and females.

    Organ, cell, hormonal, immunological, enzymes, brain, genetic.

    And you want to point back to Copernicus. How rational, progressive, intellectual.

  • Ha! You noticed that did you? I liken Spuddie to the evil twin alter-ego that you see in the movies.
    He’s either a government worker or college professor; so he has time to write for DAYS…. 🙂

  • I looked it up. It would appear that YOU are the master of tone trolling.
    And other trolling as well.

  • No such thing as “homophobes”, Monica……BTW, how are all the NCR posters and retreads surviving without Message Boards ? I miss Kate and her idiotic posts !

  • What an interesting assortment of new trolls who have suddenly come calling around here. Or maybe it’s just one with many names.

  • Really? 20 years of marriage and the dude tells you he’s changing sexes? Really? That doesn’t rock your world?
    Did you not hear her when she said not all dreams are meant to come true?
    No say for the wife – they guy had made up his mind a tossed a book at her.
    You are one cold dude if you think she’s not messed up.

  • It’s the same old gnomes with different names. All you have to do is see who’s missing during the time a new troll is posting in rapid-fire sequence, and you’ll know who it is.
    What a sad way to live, making believe to be other people to reinforce your own self-image. (Wait, that’s Trump….)

  • Have you been watching the news from over here? Read the NY Times front page. It’s all over the news.

  • In the Hebrew Bible, there’s only two genders. (Same for the Christian New Testament.)

    Not 6, not 60, not 600. Just two. Always two. (And those two are not interchangeable.)

  • I think you’re onto something there. Something significant.
    (And it reminds me of Bruce Jenner’s tragic cover photo in Vanity Fair.)

    Taking incorrect hormones and undergoing incorrect surgery, does NOT heal what’s really going on deep down inside a person. That’s for real.

  • Given your performance to date, I applaud your ability to laugh while rolling on the floor. Do you live on hospital grounds or in a group home?

  • “…you apostate…”

    Sorry, Jeffrey, you don’t even demonstrate knowledge of the meaning of the term.

    Not recommended.

  • “Instead you chose to take a dig at those who don’t agree with with the LGBTQ way of life.”

    Do you agree with the heterosexual “way of life” — i.e., adultery, fornication, sexual kink, etc.?

  • Bloggers, gay and straight, would conclude that Pastor Klee and her spouse have demonstrated growth toward “virtue and truth”. Maturity can often enough involve facing and overcoming serious challenges in life.

  • Would you embrace Jesus as Lord and Savior if you learned post-mortem that he was a celibate gay man two thousand years ago? Would you welcome him? Would you allow Jesus to welcome you?

  • Not even Jesus the Jew claimed to be a “priest”. His followers saw Jesus as he described himself, namely, as a “prophet”.

  • What was “the Law” before Jesus? Jesus clarified that “the Law” was LOVE, not only of God but of neighbor, as well. He joined the two requirements: If one doesn’t love one’s neighbor whom one has seen, one cannot love God whom one has not seen. “For I was…a stranger, and you welcomed me” (Mt 25:35). For most heterosexuals even today, persons with natural God-given same-sex attraction are the “strangers” today. In his teaching, Jesus said he *is the stranger*. Therefore, he *is* the homosexual person.

    If Jesus were to tell you after your death that he is gay, would you still embrace him as your Lord and Savior?

  • ‘Abnormality’ in this context is real, not contrived. It is natural, not man-made. It is morally neutral, not sinful.

  • Comments can be bigoted like yours — or, at times, ignorant like yours.

    (when are u gonna’ let me win more marbles from you?)

  • “Her eyes look very sad.”

    Had your vision checked lately? (Seriously, the photos don’t show any sadness.)

  • “Taking incorrect hormones and undergoing incorrect surgery, does NOT heal what’s really going on deep down inside a person. That’s for real.”

    And you know, How?

    Please, mon ami, don’t say it’s from personal experience!!!

  • The Left likes to manipulate language to impose their failed policies.

    “Male and female he created them” — God

  • Are you quoting God, or are you quoting a long-ago biblical writer who believed he was speaking for God and “dropped” God’s name to lend his writing an air of authenticity? Biblical scholars (with perhaps a relatively few exceptions) reject the notion that God literally dictated revelation to sacred writers who then wrote down what they heard. The biblical writers were not transcribers.

    Your quote, furthermore, reflects the very limited knowledge/understanding of human biology and psychology prevalent thousands of years ago. There’s no “manipulation [of] language”. We know far more about human life and sexuality today than “back in the day”.

  • What constitutes “common sense” for you strikes most of the rest of us as “loose screws”. Perhaps you should consider returning to earth. It appears you’ve been “out in space” way too long.

  • Read James ch5 v20. It talks about pulling a person away from sin will save a multitude of sinners

  • That is the biggest load of horse manure you’ve posted here.

    With a third of a billion people in the U.S. alone, plus other English-speaking nations, the odds you can do specific ID with your magic intuition approximates zero.

  • “Unlike yourself, I am not looking for excuses to hate.”

    Which is why you call people “nazis”.

  • It’s a sad state of affairs when a man’s delusion that he is a woman is considered “common sense”.

  • Hebrews 4:14

    But since you don’t accept the Bible, I guess referring to it is kind of pointless to someone as “enlightened” as yourself!

  • Your assumption that same-sex attraction is “natural” and “God-given” is where your attempt at reasoning fails; nothing could be further from the truth.

  • Read and study tradition for more understanding here. It is not so easy as just accept. G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis offer classical insights. Dorthy Day, a convert from her liberal ways, has a more modern day approach to authenticity and real ‘freedom of living.’. God bless your journey!

  • You raise very good points. If you tune into an AM station , Catholic radio, there are many scholars who take questions from atheists and agnostics. It is truly interesting and I’ve learned so much.

  • Oooh, yes, people are so “enlightened” these days!

    “…claiming to be wise, they became fools…” (Romans 1:22)

    The Apostle then goes on to say how that led the the acceptance of homosexuality. But you don’t really care what the Apostles say, do you? You’re just oodles and oodles wiser than they were!

  • It’s a sad state of affairs when a man’s delusion that he speaks for and to god on a subject he obviously knows nothing about is considered common sense.

    FIFY

  • …and you being one of the Sirens of Titan in disguise, being the age of Methuselah. The things one can hide behind a fence post.

  • Whether or not it is delusional for a man to speak to and for a god cannot be conclusively proven one way or the other. The man might just be right.

    But when a man imagines he is a woman, science can conclusively prove that he is wrong and most certainly delusional.

  • First of all, he didn’t change sexes. Yes, the tossing of the book to her was not the right way to go about it. I’m sure he was scared. Obviously it must have been very difficult for both of them. But they love each other and they’re still together.
    Btw, I’m reading the “tossing” remark to mean that he was saying “Here, read this and we’ll talk when I get back,” not that he literally threw a book at her head. The latter would make my opinion subject to change.

  • It was a fun crowd, if not a bunch of loons. I miss the narcissistic weight-obsessed nut called KATE. The sky was always falling with her.

  • Ah, such a tired, worn-out cliche.

    “You disagree with my false beliefs, therefore you lack knowledge.”

    You liberals are so creative when it comes to dreaming up new ways to pervert orthodoxy; why are you so lame when it comes to rebuttals?

    Anyway – a-pos-ta-sy – noun – 1. (secular) the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief. 2. (Catholic) the total repudiation of the Christian faith.

    The Catholic Church has a 2,000+ year record of its proclamations regarding human nature, sin, redemption, and a host of other issues, including sexuality. Not all are dogma (i.e. Augustine’s or Aquinas’ teachings on predestination), but those doctrines which are mandatory are explicit.

    All of those folks mentioned in my previous comment have quite openly and knowingly rejected many dogmatic truths in favor of the lies of late 20th century Western (almost entirely Caucasian) liberalism. They have not done so out of ignorance, but out of determined rebellion to Divinely revealed truth.

    One does not need to write out a formal letter of resignation to their Archbishop to be an apostate. They simply need to deny with full understanding that which the Catholic Church has proclaimed mandatory upon the Catholic believer.

  • For those who wonder how monicadeangelis plays in the sandbox with others in a wide-open discussion:

    http://www.aggiornamento.net/2018/09/06/the-catholic-troll/

    “Since trolls can’t understand why they were asked to leave the seminary, we can assume they’re either not very bright or blind to the truths everyone else can see. In either case, they see themselves as bastions of virtue in a world gone mad, tilting at the windmills of heresies that aren’t there, and defending the Church that had no use for them then, and even less use for them now. ‘You’re not Catholic,’ they announce to anyone who refutes them, because they alone love the Church as it should be loved.”

    And so on.

    Her screed is fairly simple: “I am a big brain really insightful 21st century type and you’re either not very bright or blind to the truths everyone else can see (which amazingly correspond 100% to what I believe).”

  • It’s a sad state of affairs when a man’s fixation on his groin leads him to the delusion that Christians believe they speak for and
    to god on a subject he thinks he knows all there is to about and which he believes is considered
    common sense.

  • Happy am I that you attribute so many years of wrong doing to me. I was there to witness it all and obviously it did move God to anger.
    As for the sign: all are safe, God has already said: “her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death, I wisdom, find out knowledge of witty inventions”. As a pastor, she was never safe, even in the closet.

  • It should be noted that scientists are now delusional, not acknowledging the difference between right and wrong. For the delusional, Mars is a safe haven for mankind, is about as misguided as anybody could be.

  • Thanks Bob….there are very few comments there, it’s basically Monica From Italy giving us some dressed-up talking points.

    I miss the guys bitching about not being able to use The Pill to bang the missus and the gals talking about the need to control their sex lives and the weirdos talking about transgender vegans !! LOL

  • The LGBT seems to have come out of the closet right at the end of an age and the new age will not last as long as the previous age. The last “time” on earth brings with it, a change in what is a church. The LGBT is being used by God as a sign of the times and it is a global event as Revelation has revealed as Armageddon.

    The planet is in their hands.The Church is not. The planet burns up, the Church does not. The Scripture cannot be broken.

    God has a question for the LGBT: what time do you have?

  • CCC-2089 and c. 751 define ‘apostasy’ as “the total repudiation of the Christian faith”. The key adjective in this definition is “Christian, not “Catholic”. The phrase “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” comes to mind. The “faith” is Christianity. Catholicism is but one — albeit the largest and one of the two oldest traditions (the other being Orthodoxy) — of the Christian faith.

    You write in relevant part, “The Catholic Church has a 2,000+ year record of its proclamations regarding human nature, sin, redemption, and a host of other issues, including sexuality. Not all are dogma…, but those doctrines which are mandatory are explicit.” You are mixing apples and oranges in this statement. All dogma is doctrine; most doctrine is not dogma. Most church teaching is not infallible. A dogma is a truth proposed by the magisterium, i.e., “teaching authority”, as divinely revealed and thus essential to the Christian faith; a related term — deposit of faith — is defined as all that God has revealed through Christ for our salvation. As Vatican II taught, “When comparing doctrines with one another, they should remember that in Catholic doctrine there exists a ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relation to the fundamental Christian faith” (Unitatis Redintegratio-11).

    Your references to “human nature” and “sin” are too broad for discussion. Generally speaking, statements about human nature derive from philosophy, not theology. Sin, of course, can be “venial” or “mortal” according to Catholic moral teaching. Your mention of “redemption”, important as it may be in other contexts, may impress some folks on this thread but is not germane to discussions about sexual orientation and related. That leaves “sexuality”, still another broad topic. Divine revelation as contained in dogmatic teaching does not address matters of sex. At best, doctrines about sex, e.g., prostitution and fornication, fall into the so-called “secondary object of infallibility”. For more information on these points, see:

    + http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_1998_professio-fidei_en.html , section 11, and

    + 74.220.215.208/~richars0/Documents/essays.php?articleID=555 (“The Hierarchy of Truths” by Richard McBrien).

    Quoting the official definition of the term ‘apostate’ is one thing. Correctly applying this term is another matter altogether. You have failed in the latter respect.

  • Actually Mr. Starship was quoting both Genesis and Jesus. Correctly, I might add.

    Male and female he (God the Creator) created us humans. Two non-interchangeable human genders; Just two. That’s what it says in both Hebrew and Greek.

    The skeptics ain’t happy about it, but they don’t get to re-write the Bible texts.

  • I’ve just nevet equated Jesus with the hatred that so many self professed Christians display. Its sad really….

  • Actually , he was called Rabbi. And; an interesting tibit here; one of the requirements of a rabbi was to be married. …

  • Christianity always had a fixation with groins and vaginas. It’s all rather ignorant, perverted and sorely uneducated really.

  • She banned us both, apparently.

    She’s a feminist nutcase. And SHE’S the sane one over at NCR !!! Remember Kag ?

  • Actually Christianity has never had a fixation with groins and vaginas.

    It assumed one had one or the other and knew what they were for.

    The fixation always seems to be on the part of folks like my correspondent, who absolutely detest the fact that Christianity won’t endorse their notions as to what they are for.

    The fixation involves looking in a mirror and telling what you see – a fixation with groins and vaginas.

  • The requirement that Rabbis be married came from the Pharisaic strand of Judaism, which later displaced all other strands of Judaism, but it was not universally followed at the time of Jesus (witness the case of the Essenes, and even later, the case of Rabbi Simeon ben Azzai.). A preference for celibacy is yet another example of how Jesus’ teachings diverged from what later became mainstream Judaism.

    Another interesting tidbit: another later requirement was that a rabbi be 40 years old; Jesus was much younger.

  • You’ve also apparently not equated Jesus with morality:

    “When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, ‘Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!’” – John 2:13-16

  • Who are you to say that they are “worse”? Their marriage seems *stronger* now. Why not look harder at your own and less at others’ marriages?

  • Fortunately, *you* (Bob) are not Jesus and do not get to decide the extent of *anyone’s* relationship with Christ.

  • That’s just cruel. Showing us your heart today, are you?
    ALL human beings deserve dignity and respect — NO human being created in GOD’s Image is an “it”.

  • Whelp. you’d be wrong. She is a priest and is doing the work of Christ — in places and with people that I wager that ALL of these anti-trans haters WOULD NOT.
    Cowards.

  • Aaaaand, you’ve just demonstrated your *complete* lack of medical understanding of the reality of transgender human beings.

  • And you can’t see the innate mind of other people — they were made gay and you were made straight. Why be upset that GOD constructed others differently than you?

  • Not a man — she never was. She was born a transgender woman with the innate knowledge of herself as a woman (just like you did as a man) even though her body developed at a later stage in a different direction (how far along that spectrum, we DO NOT know).

    No where in the article does it say that she got “breast implants” or had “botox”, so just STOP with the false allegations.

    If you were born WITHOUT any genitals whatsoever, do you think that you *just might* STILL know your innate gender? I’ll bet you would — because our sense of gender identity (EVERYONE, both cis and trans) is a function of our fetal brain structure, not what’s between our legs.

  • So, do you think God is putting these people in the the churches to correct the Scripture? What right does the LGBTQ have to change the Word of God? Jesus is the Word and is God, and you think God needs the LGBTQ to correct the Father of Light?

    I think my God is going to fulfill the Scripture just as it is written, whether or not you believe it. Just because one goes to a church building is not going to save anyone in this time. It is a new day and it is safer not being in that building, in this time.

  • LOL. Just stop while you’re behind.

    Are you going to call the woman in the UK who was tested during pregnancy for complications, found that she was XY with over 90% male DNA, a “man”?!?
    Seriously?

    Oh, btw.
    She successfully gave birth, this XY, MALE DNA woman.

  • NONE of the trans people that I know are transitioning “for the novelty”. What an absurd accusation. Who would willingly “choose” to be disowned by their parents, made homeless, lose their job, friends and be turned away from their childhood church… just to be “trendy”?
    NO.
    Their trans birth condition is real, even if the people around them are too ignorant and heartless to see it.

  • They are not “abnormalities” — they are a minority of Human Beings who are ALSO created in GOD’s Image.

  • Oh, get over yourself.
    SHE
    HER

    Are you going to go around now calling masculine-looking women “him” and feminine-looking men “her”? Is appearance the extent of your understanding of gender? How sad.

    Trans people are legit just as you are.
    Try some empathy for once and just let others live in peace.

  • Apparently, NO, you do NOT.

    But you do know how to treat others like sh*t for no reason, so there’s that…

  • McHugh is a laughingstock and even his Alma Mater, Johns Hopkins has denounced him, providing FULL medical care and procedures that are both necessary and beneficial for their LGBT patients.

  • Except for the fact that orthodox Judaism and Christianity consider same sex physical congress an abomination, of course.

  • It’s a sad state of affairs when non-medical pundits on message forums think that they can define how GOD “should” have made other people.

  • Individual relationships with Jesus and Jesus’ moral teachings are two separate things.

    Yes, if I was losing the argument on Jesus’ moral teachings I, too, would be tempted to change the subject.

    However, while I never shirk from responding to an interrogator, I don’t have time for trolls.

    So, you’re blocked.

    https://help.disqus.com/commenting/user-blocking

  • SHE is not “imagining”, SHE is finally living as how GOD made her.
    Medical science, endocrinologists and doctors agree with her condition being real.

    Looks like the delusional one… is you.

  • Yep. Destroyed his wife’s life for his own selfish interests. Sorry the truth hurts. Sorry you can’t empathize with her situation.

  • Sleeping during Biology class, were you? The fact that you think using masculine pronouns for a male is somehow “pejorative” reveals the depths of your own ideological indoctrination. Welcome to the real world outside your safe space!

  • Not necessarily.

    Oh, and about that “abomination” bit…

    Have you stopped wearing mixed fiber clothing?
    Stopped trimming the edge of your beard?
    Not planted two different things next to each other?
    When did you choose to disobey and stop stoning to death those who work on the Sabbath?

  • I’ll tell you that there are FAR MORE permutations of DNA than merely “XX” and “XY”!
    Talk to any licensed endocrinologist, for starters.
    Good luck with your education.

  • If you come to my channel and have blocked me (I’m a moderator there), you will be permanently banned. Good luck with that.

  • Their marriage sounds pretty STRONG now to me.
    Sorry you’re projecting your own inadequacies onto others… maybe get some couples therapy for that.

  • Reality is objective, not determined by our subjective feelings. He is objectively male, and properly referred to as “HIM”, no matter what his subjective feelings about it may be. Sorry if sometimes reality comes at you hard.

  • If you don’t know if they are transgender, what’s your problem?
    Are you just going to be a @ss, going around calling people whatever the hell you want?
    Get over yourself.

  • as the verse reads “…he created…” it is not god speaking. it is a human interpreter writing what they observed . it does not say that god meant it to cover all creation–each and every case–only that it is the more often than not the case .

    genesis is beautiful and truthful poetry of the creation . don’t destroy it by misrepresenting and misunderstanding what form of expression it is .

  • Ummm, YES, He did.
    “You” do not speak for how GOD made others and thankfully, He did NOT choose to make us all little clones like you’d prefer.

  • SHE is a transgender woman, born as a transgender woman and has always been a transgender woman.

    YOUR subjective judgement of others is quite telling, and wrong.

  • To put it simply: The Church’s teaching (1 Timothy 3:15) has always been: Its is not sinful to have same sex attraction.. however, homosexual “acts” are sinful. In the same way any person may have an inclination to sin in a certain way (for whatever reason) but it only becomes sinful if they act upon it. Its Carrying your cross. Something most people today do not wish to do. Instead “giving into your cross” seems to be the norm.

    Matthew 16:24-26
    Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

  • Matthew 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

  • Yep, sure does.
    She has to constantly explain she’s not a lesbian.
    She stated that, “oh well, not all dreams are meant to come true”.
    Yep – she sounds extremely happy.
    I give her credit, she is standing by her man.
    Stop looking past the pain endured by the wife to accommodate the selfishness of her husband.
    Your so giddy with transgenderism, you fail to see that the decision does not work out well for all parties.

  • Sounds like now YOU are speaking for God, with Him making some people LGBT like you would prefer. We should let God speak for Himself. And He has, in the Scriptures. But, of course, they mean nothing to you.

  • Which is to say that he is a man suffering from the delusion that he is actually a woman – a mental illness known as gender dysphoria

  • A convenient way for you to dodge the fact that you misused/twisted Scripture on Christ’s driving wrongdoers from the Temple. Either out of ignorance or deceit. But no comments from you would be quite welcome, so thank you.

  • NO, AGAIN — dysphoria is a condition caused by NOT accepting who they are, imposed on them by others and causing distress. It is NOT a mental illness and their birth condition of being trans is not either — as every major professional medical organization agrees!

  • Absolutely nowhere does it say God created transgenders; only male and female.

    You seem to think he did. Show me where in the Bible it says that.

    Now I’m waiting…

  • Ok. And you are still supporting spousal abuse. But at least the guy gets to grow his hair out and wear dresses.

  • What we see now happening is basically the modern LGBT equivalent in medicine to Soviet era Lysenkoism. When science becomes beholden to any politically correct ideology -such as LGBT- it never ends well.

  • Even children know that a man is not a woman – until they are brainwashed by LGBT ideology!
    Better to be an honest child than a brainwashed adult.

  • And nowhere in the Bible does it mention Downs Syndrome, Ginger hair or open heart surgery.

    I never said that everything is in the Bible. It’s not a scientific text!

    Now, I’m still waiting for your excuses as to why humans are born differently and NOT all little clones…

  • No, what we’re seeing is people like you and the Flat Earthers denying scientific research and facts.

    Deal with it. The world is bigger than you thought and people are more diverse than what you might feel comfortable.

  • You’re brainwashed by your ignorance, hate, fear and bigotry toward others who were created differently than you.

  • The bible is nothing more than a collection of ancient fragmented texts filled with often violent tales of demons, deities and demigods, written by highly superstitious and warring peoples. Its no more the word of god than the Iliad.

  • YOU are the one who asked where trans were in the Bible. Now when I demonstrate God created mankind in two (2) genders, you change your tune!

    Of course the Bible doesn’t mention hair colors or birth defects. because it no where enumerates possible hair colors or birth defects. But when it speaks of gender. it is very clear that God made man with two and only two genders: male and female.

  • Trans people aren’t some kind of “third gender” — they are male and female. Try proving otherwise.

  • LGBT Lysenkoist “science” has quite a grip on you, doesn’t it? Eventually it will be seen for the fraud it is, like all Lysenkoist nonsense.

  • Oh, I totally agree; they are male and female. The males are under the delusion that they are “really” females, while the females labor under the delusion that they are “really” males.

  • No, it is NOT.
    Are you going to call the woman in the UK a years ago who was tested during pregnancy for complications, find that she was XY and over 90% male DNAa “man”, because DNA?

    Oh, btw. She successfully gave birth

  • I would like to see the scientific article on that. Got an actual reference or was this in one of the UK tabloids?

  • If you choose to play that game, I’ll block you.

    Intelligent discussion I have time for.

    For trolls I have no time.

  • Intelligence and mythology do not belong in the same sentence. But I’ll humor you.

    A deity created a male proto-human out of clay.  Then it took a male to female genetic clone of it so the two could breed. Thus whole human race was born.

    As creation myths go I’ve always found this one to be one of the silliest. Oddly though, this creation myth suggests that the human body is malleable and that gender is not static and is in fact fluid.

    Curiously though there’s the second creation myth that says god made humanity in its image; male and female. Which suggests that the god of the bible is both genders  thus making it intersex and/ or transgender. Both myths support the reality that 1 in every 1200-2000 are born intersex and that gender and gender orientation was never set in stone.

  • If you want to go that direction I’ll say god put lgbtiq folks here to test people’s compassion over mythology. Sadly, many fail.

  • We’re reaching the end of our time together.

    “As creation myths go I’ve always found this one to be one of the silliest.” demands something along the lines of “JD, that is the sort of thing one expects from a jerk.”

    Obviously that’s not an intelligent conversation.

    What this narrative actually teaches is not the human body is malleable, but that the deity made it.

    In fact in both Judaism and Christianity the sexes are iconic of the deity, which is NOT intersex or transgender, but which is creative.

    The reality is that some portion of humans are born nearly brainless, or blind, or sans one or more limbs, and so on.

    How this translates into a critique of Judaism or Christianity eludes.

    There is no gun to your head to join either.

    There is no gun to my head to read “As creation myths go I’ve always found this one to be one of the silliest.” again.

  • When discussing mythology logic and intelligent doesn’t always apply.

    When one takes mythology is literal all sorts of problems arise. Like a poster here who literally believes bats are birds because the ‘bible says so.’ This person is going to take that erroneous thinking to their grave. A simple rule of thumb is when using mythology as a form or basis for living one’s life you must discern what is actually healthy versus, well, ignorance.

    Fact: People are born gay. And there’s nothing wrong with that. If your mythology is causing you to harm others just because they’re born different then you need a new mythology. In fact you don’t need mythology at all. You need empathy, compassion, intelligence, understanding and wisdom. Mythologies and other tales of fantastic deities, demons and demigods can display stories of morals but in the end of the day you must remember they are fanciful mythologies.

  • Fact: some people are born psychotic killers.

    That doesn’t mean we need to endorse their acting on it.

    Some people are born kleptomaniacs.

    That doesn’t constitute an endorsement for theft.

    Empathy, compassion, intelligence, understanding, and wisdom which endorse either is not empathy, compassion, intelligence, understanding, or wisdom.

    That is true despite your fanciful mythology otherwise.

    Well, you’re blocked.

    Bye, bye.

  • Your scriptural quote does not contradict Matthew 22:34-40:

    “When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, and one of them [a scholar of the law] tested him by asking, ‘Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?’ He said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. THE WHOLE LAW AND THE PROPHETS DEPEND ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS” (caps for emphases).

    I repeat my question: If Jesus were to tell you after your death that he is [a celibate] gay, would you still embrace him as your Lord and Savior [brackets added to clarify]?

  • 1 Timothy 3:15 reads, “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” According to the USCCB commentary for 1 Timothy, “The three letters [1 and 2 Timothy and Titus] are addressed not to congregations but to those who shepherd congregations (Latin, pastores). These letters were first named ‘Pastoral Epistles’ in the eighteenth century because they all are concerned with the work of a pastor in caring for the community or communities under his charge…..The [first] letter instructs Timothy on his duty to restrain false and useless teaching (1 Tm 1:3–11; 4:1–5; 6:3–16)…..It gives rules for [inter alia] relation of slaves with their masters (1 Tm 6:1–2)…” (brackets added for clarification).

    Regarding master-slave relations, “Those who are under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect, so that the name of God and our teaching may not suffer abuse. Those whose masters are believers must not take advantage of them because they are brothers but must give better service because those who will profit from their work are believers and are beloved” (1 Timothy 6:1-2).

    This approval of slavery mirrors Jesus’ teaching about the morality of slavery:

    “And the Lord replied [to Peter], ‘Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute [the] food allowance at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so. Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property. But if that servant says to himself, “My master is delayed in coming,” and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk, then that servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful. That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more'” (Luke 12:42-48; phrase “to Peter” in brackets added for clarification). References to servants, menservants, and maidservants are synonyms for slaves, according to the late jurist and historian John T. Noonan, Jr. in his A CHURCH THAT CAN AND CANNOT CHANGE: THE DEVELOPMENT OF CATHOLIC MORAL TEACHING.

    In his A CONCISE HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, historian Thomas Bokenkotter writes, “As recently as June 20, 1866, the Holy Office had upheld the slave trade as moral. The justification was based both on philosophy (natural law) and on revelation (divine law). Various quotations from Scripture were cited in support of this position…The Fathers of the Church and local church councils, laws, Popes, and theologians were cited in the attempt to show that the approval of slavery was part of an unbroken, universal tradition” (pp. 487-488). Noonan describes how slavery was condemned at Vatican II. He notes that it was “not [done] with fanfare and trumpets.” Nonetheless, according to the author, “[t]he Council’s action was the first categorical condemnation by the Church of an institution that the Church had lived with for over nineteen hundred years” (p. 120). The condemnation appears in ‘Gaudium et spes’.

    According to you, “‘[G]iving into your cross’ seems to be the norm.” The reference to *carrying one’s cross* is found, inter alia, in Matthew 16:24-25, to wit: “Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.'” According to the USCCB commentary for these two passages, “A readiness to follow Jesus even to giving up one’s life for him is the condition for true discipleship; this will be repaid by him at the final judgment……[T]o deny someone is to disown him…and to deny oneself is to disown oneself as the center of one’s existence.”

    On the other hand, Jesus says in Matthew 11:28-30, “Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.” As the USCCB commentary notes, “In place of the yoke of the law, complicated by scribal interpretation, Jesus invites the burdened to take the yoke of obedience to his word, under which they will find rest.”

    Except for repressive conditions in totalitarian states, most Christians elsewhere are not faced with the prospect of giving up their lives to witness to their religious faith. Practically speaking, therefore, the challenge to *take up one’s cross* to the possible point of mortal death is unlikely. With some exceptions, Christians in the West are challenged to live ordinary lives in faithful obedience to the divine command to love God and neighbor (Jesus joins together these two commandments to form the one great commandment). Just as pressure was building on the church over two thousand years to condemn slavery, we are witnessing increasing calls from Christians today to abolish religious doctrines that effectively relegate persons with same-sex attraction to second-class status. Jesus, of course, never addressed same-sex attraction or sexual relations even though he did demonstrate divine sanctioning of slavery. We’ve finally condemned what Jesus approved, yet some Christians continue to condemn (homosexuality) what Jesus never condemned. They rely on Old Testament and non-Gospel scriptural passages that do not at all reflect our greater understanding of psychology and biology including human sexual orientation.

  • False. Some are Intersex. And all have the brain structure that correlates to the gender identity they hold — just as we all do.

  • Interestingly, the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, U.S. online edition does not have the term ‘agape’ in the index or glossary. On the other hand, there are several mentions of “God is love” (1 John 1:5; 4:8).

    Wikipedia has an entry at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape.

    What seems to distinguish agape from other forms of love is two-fold:

    a. It is unconditional divine love for humankind (including one’s love for neighbor in response to the divine command), and

    b. non-eros

    My earlier quote from 1 John is correct and (speaking for myself) rightly understood.

  • Just for the record,human beings who are Christians have a model to emulate to become holy,the Christ, God madeMan, or His Holy Mother, Mary Fullness of Grace and Mother of God.Unfortunately we all fall short, and obvious deviations from true masculinity and femininity has been sabotaged because of sin. The poor souls of the Klee’s are in peril. They need prayers because they are in need of deliverance, from the evil one. They do not need hormone treatments or psychiatry to help them to be ill,they are spiritually sick.

  • Yes, our fellow blogger was quoting scripture. That said, is it possible that God knew not only of “male and female” but also of other gender variants within the human family? Given my conclusion (and belief) that sexual orientation and related is complex (and God-given), I would have to answer “Yes”. People two thousand and more years ago did not have any inkling of what we know today from the social and life sciences. God’s inspiration occurred within the cultural constraints of the human family. Divine inspiration, in other words, was not divine dictation. Wikipedia has an entry at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inspiration.

    No one is rewriting the Bible texts. The Bible is not a history text or a science book. It contains references to historical events (e.g., destruction of the Temple in 70 CE) as well as passages of interest to scientists (e.g., Noah’s Ark and the parting of the Red Sea). The Bible does not address many of the problems facing us today or even several hundred years ago. To cite my favorite example, Jesus approved of slavery, and the Church upheld the morality of slavery by recourse to natural law (philosophy) and divine law (revelation). No decent person today would agree with Jesus’ approbation two thousand years ago. On the other hand, Jesus never addressed same-sex issues, much less what we know today of homosexuality and related.

    Society and, belatedly, the Church condemned slavery even though Jesus approved of it. In response to new information and insights about human sexuality, etc., increasing numbers of Western Christians are condemning homophobia. In both cases, Christians were and are motivated by Jesus’ teaching to love one’s neighbor and to welcome the stranger.

  • Oh, give me a break!
    They ARE committed, faithful Christians. They ARE being who God made them to be. Mother Gillian just happens to be one of the few rare individuals who are born trans and tried to deal with the way society wanted her to be rather than embrace the way that God made her until now.

    Unlike you, I actually met Mother Gillian once at an Episcopal conference. We talked briefly over coffee and she’s a gentle, humble, Christlike servant of God.

    She’s actually DOING the work of Jesus Christ among the poor, the sick, the homeless, the drug addicts — all the marginalized people that YOU would walk on the other side of the street to avoid.

    Hypocrite. Take the bean out of your own eye first.

  • One of the characteristics of the authoritarian personality is a disdain for intellectual/scholarly endeavors. While I’m not a scholar, I can appreciate their work that is relevant to issues of interest to me. Perhaps you’re the “fool”?

  • Our fellow blogger apparently belongs to a group of former Anglicans/Episcopalians who joined the Church of Rome and are, by doctrine, homophobes. The “papa” suggests the blogger is a cleric. Such folks are ruled by FEAR just like JPII and B16. Sad.

  • “Christ would disagree on her ‘priesthood’.”

    If the Gospel is any indication, Christ would disagree with the so-called Catholic “priesthood”.

  • God did not make you bigoted or closed-minded, either. You are simply another result of living in a sinful, fallen world.

  • Yeah, I agree. Fear is their motivation rather than loving others, as Christ taught us to do.
    It is sad!

  • HEBREWS is typology. I accept the Bible as conveying divine teaching.

    (HINT: You undercut your blogging when engaging in negative behavior.)

  • Episcopalian is the explanation of not having the fullness of the truth. Yes you are right about my hypocrisy,but aren’t you?

  • You want to judge me for being Episcopalian now? Yeah, I think we’re done here. You’re stuck and intractable. Have a nice day.

  • Now, you’ve descended to ugly lies about her and her ministry to the kind of marginalized people that *you* would never spend a minute near, you Pharisee.

  • She’s simply OLDER and TIRED because she works hard to help others, constantly, at all hours and probably even gives her own food to the hungry.

    I think you’re the one confused here.

  • Every single major professional medical organization disagrees with your “diagnosis”, armchair champ.

  • –All the more reason for her to seek professional care and rest. Mother Teresa was old , but was joyful in her God given state and she took care of herself too. One cannot help others spiritually until they are well too. Hence, she admitted to seeking professional help.

  • Christians are used to being “fools for Christ’s sake” (I Cor. 4:10) because they cling to the Word.

    Those who spurn the Word are simply fools, for Christ’s sake.

  • Ok, so you don’t believe that Jesus is our Great High Priest as the Scriptures attest. Got it.

    Why am I not surprised?

  • Whenever the Bible says something inconvenient, it is is wise to pretend it says something else entirely.

  • Yet some transsexual people are also intersex.
    Regardless, trans people are born and their condition is real.

  • Well, I do find the medical science and the testimony of trans people that I know personally to be more than convincing.

  • Transgenders are not born, it is a choice. If you think they are born transgender then please provide evidence.

  • No, they are born just as everyone with innate qualities that are not chosen.
    You have ZERO basis to claim that they “choose” to be trans.
    When did you “choose” to be cis?
    At what point did you “choose” to have your brain structure and your secondary sex characteristics match up during your fetal gestation (lucky you)?

    You made a negative claim, so the burden of proof is on you.
    Come on — tell us when you “choose” to be cis?

  • She “removed” several of my comments on her blog. I mean….it is her blog, she can do what she wants, but to ‘remove’ comments that you don’t agree with is just proof that she cares not about truth and discovery. She has an agenda and by god she is sticking to it. “Progress” and all.

  • Can’t prove a negative, why don’t you provide evidence that Transgenders are born that way, bet you can’t. Same goes for Lesbians and Gays, they are not born that way. There have been many studies done on identical twins where one is gay and not the other. That proves it’s not genetic, it stems from choice. There have been celebrities that were ” normal” then “lesbian” then “normal” Anne Heche springs to mind.

  • So, in your thinking, “the Scriptures attest [“that Jesus is our Great High Priest”]?

    No, only *one* N.T. scriptural source — HEBREWS — so states (it does not “attest” to anything of the sort). The reference to Jesus as “great high priest” is typology, which is “a doctrine or theory concerning the relationship of the Old Testament to the New Testament. Events, persons, or statements in the Old Testament are seen as types pre-figuring or superseded by antitypes, events or aspects of Christ or his revelation described in the New Testament” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typology_(theology). As the USCCB commentary on HEBREWS notes, “The author saw the addressees in danger of apostasy from their Christian faith. This danger was due not to any persecution from outsiders but to a weariness with the demands of Christian life and a growing indifference to their calling (Heb 2:1; 4:14; 6:1–12; 10:23–32). The author’s main theme, the priesthood and sacrifice of Jesus (Heb 3–10), is not developed for its own sake but as a means of restoring their lost fervor and strengthening them in their faith…..The author calls this work a ‘message of encouragement’ (Heb 13:22)…” A modern-day example of typology is a political candidate saying he is the fulfillment of Ronald Reagan’s dream. The candidate is using a communications tool — typology — to encourage a targeted audience to vote for him. He is using their language, their memory to garner political support.

    Clip & Save for future reference.

  • I don’t approve of adultery, fornication, sexual kink, etc.

    Yet, when I asked if you do so agree, you replied “Yup. You don’t?”

    I don’t.

  • Although in your first word (“No”) you disagree with me, you then go on to admit that the teaching about Jesus being our Great High Priest is indeed found in the Bible (the Scriptures). It is immaterial whether it is found there in one place or many. It IS found in the book referred to as the Scriptures.

    Among the definitions of “attest”: “To attest to something means to say, show, or prove that it is true”. (Collins English Dictionary) Hebrews certainly says that Jesus is our Great High Priest, and attempts to show and prove it.

    And yes, the type is fulfilled in its antitype. In the case of Jesus, this is so because the Old Testamental Priesthood (an actual reality) was fulfilled by the Great High Priesthood of Jesus (another actual reality). Here both type and antitype are real actually existing things, not mere literary constructs. Jesus actually DOES intercede for us in his role as our Great High Priest.

    Thanks for the synopsis of the USCCB commentary. I think, however, that it overstates the case when it says: “This danger was not due to any persecution from outsiders…”, probably from an excess of political correctness, not wanting to offend contemporary Jews. However Paul, Stephen, and others would have had a different perspective.

  • HEBREWS is not “the Scriptures”. It is *one* scriptural source, not more than *one*. To clarify.

    While the word ‘attest’ means what the dictionary states, you are misusing this term. HEBREWS proves nothing. It “attests” to nothing. Nowhere in the four canonical gospels does Jesus say he is a “priest”. If you disagree, prove otherwise. If you assert you are an accountant, and if somebody else asserts you are a plumber, whom are we to believe, you or somebody else? If Jesus says he is a “prophet”, and somebody else says Jesus is a “priest”, whom are we to believe, Jesus or somebody else?

    Your third paragraph is pure belief, not scriptural fact. When HEBREWS was written, it had a purpose, namely, to encourage Jews to embrace Christianity or to remain within the Christian fold. This is fact. As typology, HEBREWS was directed in the familiar language of Judaism to a specific audience, to wit, Jews. As Wikipedia notes, the language of “types” and “antitypes” is peculiar to religious typology, which is a “doctrine or theory”, not fact.

  • “HEBREWS is not “the Scriptures”. Thank you, Captain Obvious. It is a part of the Scriptures; therefor what is said in it is said in the Scriptures. Just as the Parable of the woman caught in adultery is in the Scriptures, even though it is only found in one chapter of one book.

    “If Jesus says he is a “prophet”, and somebody else says Jesus is a “priest”, whom are we to believe, Jesus or somebody else?” Your question is an example of an “either – or” fallacy. It falsely excludes the possibilities that BOTH (or NEITHER) option may be true.

    Your third paragraph seems to assume that doctrine and fact are antithetical. This is a false antithesis; a doctrine (from the Latin for “a teaching””) could be based on fact.

  • How do you explain the fact that one twin becomes gay but not the other? So a trans person sees that he has male genitalia but thinks he is a female, then I would suggest that his brain is dysfunctional which would class him as disabled and therefore should be treated with compassion and paid a disability pension and should not be encouraged to parade and show off his disability.

  • Hello JD:
    If you ever would be inclined to search out a Christian Church to go to that goes by the Bible.
    Almost every true Christian Church that goes by scripture only.
    That has the word “ Bible “ in their name goes by scripture only.
    Like for instance
    Springfield Bible Church
    Or
    Tulsa Bible Chapel.
    It just a suggestion JD, you don’t have to take me up on it.
    But if you ever would………..

  • That’ll probably happen as much as you finally realizing bats are mammals and not birds.

    But if you ever would………….

  • God/Jesus is the final word on all scientific facts.
    Because God/Jesus created all science.
    Science will never have the authority to undermine God/Jesus in anything.

  • I love having God/Jesus in my life.
    But by scripture God/Jesus made bats, birds. I’m quite content with that truth.
    If you want to put your faith in deceitful mankind, you’re welcome to them.
    I’ll take God/Jesus over the idiocy of mankind everyday…..😊

  • Anyone who cannot comprehend simple science such as bats are mammals cannot be trusted with anything and that includes your mythologies.

  • And I don’t believe in your sciences mythologies as well.
    They don’t get to change anything that God/Jesus created.

  • And yet you rely on science every moment of your life. Everything in your life is based on science. Everything in your house, your car, places you stop, your job. from the moment you get up to the moment you go to bed . All of it relies on science. You are alive because of science. Ever got a vaccine? Antibiotics? Medicines? Surgeries? All science.

    You can deny science all you want but the fact remains that you rely upon it every single moment of your life.

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