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US cardinal, critic of pope, still waiting for answers

Cardinal Raymond Burke applauds during a news conference at the Italian Senate on Sept. 6, 2018, on the first anniversary of the death of Cardinal Carlo Caffarra. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

ROME (AP) — One of Pope Francis’ leading critics said Thursday (Sept. 6) he was “deeply shaken” by accusations of a sex abuse cover-up against the pontiff and wants an investigation, but is still pressing Francis to respond to an earlier set of questions about his views on marriage.

American Cardinal Raymond Burke denied Thursday he had any prior knowledge of the accusation penned by the former Vatican ambassador to the U.S., Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò. The two are like-minded conservatives and have shared the podium at traditionalist conferences before.

Burke said he read Viganò’s 11-page accusation that Francis was complicit in a nearly two-decade cover-up of sexual misconduct allegations against ex-Cardinal Theodore McCarrick when it was published Aug. 26. Burke said he was “deeply shaken” by what he read and has called for an investigation.

But he said more importantly, Francis needs to respond to a set of questions that he and three other conservative cardinals posed over a year ago about Francis’ opening to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics — questions Burke said are at the heart of the Christian faith.

Burke spoke at a conference Thursday marking the first anniversary of the death of one of the questions’ co-authors, Cardinal Carlo Caffarra, the retired archbishop of Bologna.

Burke, Caffarra and two others formally asked Francis to clarify certain questions, or “dubia,” raised by his 2016 document “The Joy of Love,” in which he seemed to open the door to letting divorced and civilly remarried Catholics receive Communion.

Francis hasn’t responded to them.

Burke said he shared Caffarra’s “profound sadness” over Francis’ “silence” and wondered if the pain Caffarra felt contributed to his death.

“The dubia must have a response sooner or later,” Burke said. “It’s a simple response: Yes or no. That’s all. It’s not complicated.”

Conservatives have voiced concern that Francis’ opening has sown confusion among the faithful about the church’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage.

Many Catholic faithful, including the head of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, have also demanded answers to Viganò’s accusations.

Francis has said he “won’t say a word” about Viganò’s claims and this week extolled the value of “silence and prayer” when facing those who seek to create scandal and division.

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Nicole Winfield

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  • The dubia must be answered by Pope Francis? Really? That’s a rather bold statement for someone who used to hold a rather strict view of papal obedience when Pope Benedict was sitting on the throne. My how quickly some things change in what is supposed to be (according to Burke) a changeless, unevolving understanding about doctrine. And then there’s this:

    Burke said he shared Caffarra’s “profound sadness” over Francis’ “silence” and wondered if the pain Caffarra felt contributed to his death.

    Oh please. Talk about passive aggression! This is starting to sound as wildly conspiratorial as the lunatic fringe theory during the five-year Whitewater/Monica-gate/Foster-gate trial that Bill and Hillary Clinton were responsible for Vince Foster’s suicide. What is it about right-wingers that makes them always manage to see a conspiracy lurking under every rock? Cardinal Burke has become unhinged. He and his disgruntled sidekick, Cardinal Viganò, would do well to go gently into their good retirement rather than making fools of themselves like they currently are. Their sour grapes are quickly turning into bitter wine.

  • Re: “This is starting to sound as wildly conspiratorial as the lunatic fringe theory during the five-year Whitewater/Monica-gate/Foster-gate trial that Bill and Hillary Clinton were responsible for Vince Foster’s suicide.” 

    That’s because Viganò’s letter was the product of a conspiracy. Reuters explained what led up to it and who was involved

    Re: “What is it about right-wingers that makes them always manage to see a conspiracy lurking under every rock?” 

    They’re childish, sanctimonious, and paranoid, that’s why. When they’re not inventing fictional conspiracies they say target them — in order to indulge their martyr complexes — they cook up actual ones, themselves, to use against their foes. 

    Re: “Cardinal Burke has become unhinged.” 

    I’m not sure one can really say that Burke “‘became’ unhinged.” I’m pretty sure he never had a hinge, to begin with! 

  • Fost definitely was, ummm, a victim of suicide: 

    http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/02/23/starr.report/
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/docs/foster.htm
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/05/25/no-donald-trump-theres-nothing-fishy-about-vince-fosters-suicide/
    https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/apr/03/blog-posting/vince-fosters-death-has-not-been-ruled-homicide-af/

    I know this won’t satisfy any Right-winger’s raging paranoia … but that’s just how it is. Don’t like it? That’s fine. It’s a free country. You don’t have to like it, if you don’t want to. But, the truth is that Foster wasn’t murdered — by the Clintons, by a hitman on their orders, or even by anyone else. 

  • When the holy father waxes wise on the catechism of the church; that conflicts with the current version of the catechism; that causes confusion among the faithful – he owes the faithful (and the bishops who serve the faithful) clarification.
    No different than any other leader of any other organization that has a need to communicate with middle management.
    In addition, the fact that pope Francis likes to make policy changes and float trial balloons through his atheist “friend” does not help himself, the faithful nor the church.
    It’s nice to see how consistent you are wanting answers from Pope Francis. Yes to clerical abuse (not homosexual abuse); but no to clarification on marriage which counters the homosexual agenda for the church.

  • Are you still beating your wife?

    Sometimes, questions are nothing more than traps — and anyone with sense to see this often simply refuses to answer the question designed to entrap:

    “Now Jesus was standing before Pilate, the Roman governor. ‘Are you the king of the Jews?’ the governor asked him.

    Jesus replied, ‘You have said it.’

    But when the leading priests and the elders made their accusations against him, Jesus remained silent. ‘Don’t you hear all these charges they are bringing against you?’ Pilate demanded. But Jesus made no response to any of the charges, much to the governor’s surprise” (Matthew 27:11-14).

    What kind of bona fide justice system ever functions with this rubric: if you don’t prove yourself innocent, then it’s apparent you are guilty? And who is Raymond Burke, of all people, to assume that he has the right to place the current pope in a guilty-until-you-prove-yourself-innocent position?

  • yes indeed-what justice system functions with guilty until proven otherwise? Or better yet, keep investigating until we find some 15 year old unrelated crime??
    Hmmm… I’ll take the mueller investigation for $300 Alex…

  • Thankfully, we can count on Cardinal Burke to generously give of his very valuable time to lead the investigation into Pope Francis’ malfeasance and bring the Church back to a state of manly purity.

    On the other side, Francis’ determination to use silence to avoid division and scandal is exactly the kind of thinking that the bishops used to justify the cover-up.

    Evidently these clowns are convinced that Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build my cesspool”. They have certainly done a good job of it. Jesus must be proud!

  • Actually, I didn’t say the Clintons murdered Foster (in cold blood, mind you.) Maybe it was suicide. Ken Starr sealed it 99% — but not 100%.

    What I do say, is that Foster was involved with helping the Clintons do some bad business to cover up Slick Willie’s & Hillary’s respective games. Not exactly conducive to long lifespan — one way or another.

    I also agree with Mark Hemingway (Weekly Standard ): “A more responsible opponent (than Trump) could point out that the Clintons’ behavior in regards to Foster was fishy in and of itself, even as it was made clear that the Clintons didn’t murder the guy.” (05-24-16).

    Indeed very fishy, as Hemingway clearly documents. I’m **very** glad Queen Hillary didn’t make it in 2016.
    Article title is “The Clintons didn’t Kill Vince Foster but They Sure Acted Horribly About His Death.”

  • Francis miscalculated when he assumed that his emphasis on pastoral theology would be accepted by bishops whose approach to the sacraments, and to Catholic life in general, is more juridical. The existence of a fairly large cadre of bishops selected by Popes John Paul and Benedict and convinced that their theological orientation is correct, can’t be offset just by promulgating new encyclicals. Francis should have realized this after the experience of the 2014 Synod, but he continues to ignore his critics. That may well work with Viganò, but I don’t think it will work with Cardinal Burke, who will probably survive Francis and participate in an effort to ensure that a man with a more juridical orientation is selected. I would suggest Francis hire a food taster, but he’d probably choose a woman and claim he’s promoting equality.

    Anyway, as the sign over the Roman Forum says: SPQR = “sono porci questi romani.”

  • The Church is an absolute theocratic monarchy, not a business with a CEO and board of directors. The Pope can do whatever he wants, whether the Dubia Brothers like it or not. And I doubt Lacy Ray is shook up about any of this at all.

  • “But he said more importantly, Francis needs to respond to a set of questions that he and three other conservative cardinals posed over a year ago about Francis’ opening to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics…”

    No, Francis does not need to respond to Burke et al’s “gotcha'” questions.

    Burke has too much time on his hands.

    As the good sisters taught us kids 50+ years ago, “Idle hands are the devil’s workshop.”

  • Thank you so very much. Burke is engaging in the same despicable behavior directed toward Jesus two thousand years ago. Some things never change. His Enemance Raymond Cardinal Burke is an excellent and timely example today. What a jackass!

  • I think that Pope Francis has made a beginning, a move away from the JPII and BXVI rigorism to a recognition of real life people in real life situations making the best choices they can in situations where sometimes there is no good choice. He isn’t going to change other bishops minds with one synod and one encyclical. But he is going to make a beginning. He has to start somewhere.

    But, I do think it is time for some bold move on his part. Time to address mandatory celibacy or women deacons or a new understanding of the importance of contraceptives in family life, or work on appointing women and/or lay men and women to positions of authority in the Vatican, or create a requirement that every diocese have a panel of lay who oversee the diocese with power equal to a bishop.

    What bold move would you want to see?

  • Speaking for myself, Francis needs to appoint additional numbers of progressives to the College of Cardinals. And pronto!

  • Well, bless your heart, Cardinal Burke. Best if you don’t hold your breath until you hear from Francis. In the meantime, pray that God opens your heart and soul to see the good that is also being done by Francis.

  • Please, do – not – associate – Burke – with – “manly” – “purity”. He’s about as effeminate as they come with his ecclesiastical granny dresses, etc.

    Reminder: http://www.awrsipe.com/Burke/TheCostofLookingGood2007.pdf

    The fella is unreal :o)

    (FACT: Burke’s stiff chasubles are not “traditional”, contrary to what he and company may prefer to believe. As I recall, they were novel introductions to clerical liturgical dress less than 200 years ago. He looks so damn silly in his get-up.)

  • “What bold move would you want to see?”

    The problem facing the Church is that the longer this mess drags on, the bolder the move is going to have to be to fix it. We may already be at the point where no move is going to be bold enough. Francis has had plenty of opportunities over the past five years to make a bold move or two, and he has shown that he has a temperament that is incapable of making bold moves. It is now very difficult to see any path other than the one that leads to the “smaller, holier Church”.

  • “[P]ray that God opens your heart and soul to see the good that is also being done by Francis.”

    Welp, miracles DO happen, or so we’re told. With His Enemance, however, count me skeptical.

    Burke is a hard-driving careerist. Authoritarian to the core. And FEARful, just like his followers.

    Sad.

  • Hi, ATF – I honestly think he should either call a Council or consider resigning. I don’t see how these issues are going to be hashed out by just ignoring them.

  • “Jesus remained silent”

    Jesus’ mission was to die on the cross. Silence in front of Pilate facilitated that mission.

    Is if Francis’ mission to die on the cross? Or should it be Francis’ mission to clean up the Church’s abuse mess? He is after all the successor of Peter. If it is Francis’ mission to clean up the abuse mess, silence isn’t going to do squat.

  • I don’t know, AP. How would you build a cesspool on a rock? Or a Peter, for that matter. Sounds painful.

  • Hi, Joseph – I’m not sure hes been appointing progressives. I think he’s been appointing guys who are moderates, and they seem progressive by comparison.

  • “How would you build a cesspool on a rock?”

    Isn’t that the nature of miracles? It is impossible, but nevertheless the Church managed to do it.

  • But the 81-year-old Jesuit Pope has been caught in a bind by his former envoy to Washington’s testimony. If he engages with his allegations, he runs the risk of being entangled in a never-ending “he said, she said” battle. However, saying nothing looks as though he might have something to hide. The other problem, Vatican sources tell me, is this: should the Pope respond to Viganò, it would inevitably lead to searching questions being raised about the actions of his predecessors, Benedict XVI and St John Paul II, which he does not want to precipitate. According to Viganò, it was under the Polish pope that the allegations of misconduct by McCarrick first became known to the Vatican, while Benedict seems to have been unable or unwilling to discipline the well-connected former Archbishop of Washington.

    ~ Christopher Lamb, “Culture Wars” https://www.thetablet.co.uk/features/2/14355/culture-wars

    As Lamb reports, Viganò was a participant in a conference this past April in which Burke mounted a direct attack on the papacy of Francis.

  • Wasn’t it Burke, many years back when the cover-up started to fall apart, who was the first to claim that the problem was that too many men who were not “manly” (I think this was the actual word he used) had entered the priesthood? If the guy had a fake big round red nose and red clown shoes, his costume would be complete.

  • Re: “Ken Starr sealed the latter by 99% — but not quite 100%.” 

    And it’s that 1% you’re still desperately holding onto. Got it! 

    Re: “For sure, Foster was involved with helping the Clintons do some pretty bad business …” 

    Irrelevant. Foster wasn’t murdered. 

    Re: “I also agree with Mark Hemingway (Weekly Standard ) …” 

    Irrelevant. Foster wasn’t murdered. 

    Re: “Indeed very fishy, as Hemingway clearly documents.” 

    Irrelevant. Foster wasn’t murdered. 

    Re: “Article title is ‘The Clintons didn’t Kill Vince Foster but They Sure Acted Horribly About His Death.'” 

    Irrelevant. Foster wasn’t murdered. 

  • JPII and, to a slightly lesser extent, his successor “destroy[ed] the church.” Like other reformers, Francis is left with cleaning up their mess.

  • A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

  • I don’t remember, mon ami, but — fyi — I did google *Cardinal Burke Manly Men* and came across several links about his drivel, for example:

    + https://www.newemangelization.com/uncategorized/cardinal-raymond-leo-burke-on-the-catholic-man-crisis-and-what-to-do-about-it/

    + http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-burke-altargirls-catholics-20150109-story.html

    + https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/cardinal-burkes-vision-manly-church-and-what-it-leaves-out

    How a guy of my generation (4 months my junior) arrived at his beliefs and behaviors is a total mystery to me. But for his largely negative but prominent impact on the church, I can’t take Burke seriously. Just imagine him as “Pius XIII” or “Pope Raymond”. Ugh.

    If the current ecclesiastical institution were to go “belly up”, I’d thank God for favors received. The good Enemance and friends enjoyed 35+ years under JPII and B16 who gave a minimalist interpretation to Vatican II. Now we have a pope who is trying to get the church to move forward again in the spirit of the council. Burke et al are governed by FEAR.

  • You may very well be right, Monica. I can’t say I disagree. JPII and B16 were so far to the right when compared with the progressive spirit of Vatican II. These are interesting times.

  • Engaging in “Gotcha”. If you’re an adult, you’ve got some serious learnin’ to do, mon ami. I think William Lindsey gave an excellent response. Read it again. Lindsey speaks for me.

  • “Well, [Francis had] better get cleaning then. There’s a lot to do.”

    You’re agreeing with me???

  • Vatican II and modernism started the destruction of the church. You won’t agree but look at the statistics once the more modern church and its heretical shepherds took over.

  • “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit”

    By this logic, the RCC is a rotten tree. Can a rotten tree be turned back into a righteous tree?

  • It has turned out that the failure to enforce Canon Law has occasioned the significant problems with sexual misconduct.

    Canon Law, of course, both in the current Code and the 1917 Code, prohibited the ordination of homosexuals.

    Do you have a specific problem with manly men and womanly women?

  • Yes, Pope Francis made a move away from his predecessors.

    That appears not to have worked out very well.

  • Francis miscalculated when he:

    – assumed what worked from him as head of the Jesuits in Argentina, which earned him the sobriquet “the Weasel”, would work as Pope;

    – failed to answer some simple questions about squaring Amoris laetitia with the Church’s constant teaching;

    – convinced himself being passive-aggressive was a workable approach to leading;

    – when he threw his lot in with Reinhard Marx, whose pursuit of German tax revenue has led him to jettison Catholic doctrine;

    – when he stated on election “I am no theologian” and then worked hard since trying to prove he was right.

    This is not a matter of “theological orientation” as though we’re perusing a wine list or a menu.

    This is a matter of the Catholic Faith.

    The folks with the Church Racing Form picking winning and losing bishops have already made it clear they’re dilettantes.

  • It is hard to run an absolute monarchy when folks with knives keep looking at your back.

    Julius Caesar comes to mind.

  • Yes, how ludicrous to think that JPII and B16, who actually participated in the Vatican II council, could’ve possibly understood it better than those infallible liberals contemptuous of the historic Catholic faith, such as Jagoffwicz and Monica the Deaf.

  • Yes it can. I’ve thought about this a lot over the past few days as the scandal with the holy father and the hierarchy of the church continues to be silent; or worse, dismiss the concern of the faithful and arrogantly cast them aside because the holy father has bigger issues to address like global warming and immigration.
    I have finally come around to agree with you and all the other atheists and those “catholics” that seek to destroy the church with their respective versions of modernism.
    I agree that we should destroy the church in its current form and the clericalism that permeates the church in the various forms of homosexuality, pedophilia and those bishops that accept the same. Search out those that have betrayed God, the church and the very souls that they were charged to care for.
    I propose that the church create a body of investigators to to go after every priest, bishop, cardinal or others that have committed or been accused of homosexual, pedophile or heterosexual acts that are in direct opposition to their vows to the church and to God.
    Clean out the churches, seminaries and monasteries where those who have been unfaithful have been sent to repent for their sins. Set them out on the streets where they belong.
    These men are responsible for destroying not only their own souls but those of the faithful. They should be shown no mercy.
    After they have been removed; then the church can begin to rebuild.

  • Your proposal for what needs to be done is exactly right. But does the hierarchy have the internal moral resources to carry out the needed cleansing? The evidence to date is that it does not. Where the Church lives is in the sacramental and social life of the individual parishes. Can the parishes survive the corruption and collapse of the hierarchy?

  • The masses I have attended the past few weeks are more full now than they were before. Not Easter or Christmas full, but noticeably so. Those Catholics that are truely devout have been deeply wounded by the betrayal of those priests and hierarchy that covers for them.
    That being said, the truly faithful and their holy priests pray for the church and give reparation to God for the sins of the church.
    People are lost and hurt, but they understand that it is Jesus and God that matters; not the men of the church. That being said, they will remain faithful to the church for the time being.
    As for the clerics that cover up the sins of their peers; they are about to feel the weight of the faithful (and secular) that is beginning to rise like nothing that has been seen.
    Those on these pages want clericalism destroyed; which it will; however the modernists and homosexuals will be caught up in the nets as well.

  • They are far-Left screwballs like McElroy and Cupich, folks who actively promote sodomy and then ask money from Catholics to give to the Democratic Party’s Welfare Establishment.

    We ‘aint paying anymore…….

  • Francis is clueless. He was elected with the support of the Lavender Mafia and the Pedophile/NAMBLA wing of Mahony, Daneels, Cupich, McElroy, etc.

  • “…. and wondered if the pain Caffarra felt contributed to his death. ”

    SAME GUILT TRIP CRAP !

    If the priests, bishops, cardinals and popes over the past 2000 yrs knew anything – BUT ANYTHING ABOUT PAIN – there wouldn’t have been the torture and murder of heretics – the inquisitions, the crusades – AND THE UNFETTERED RAPE OF CHILDREN condoned and covered-up by the criminal institution – the RCC….

  • Well, we read about it and its good works all the time.

    We only read about you here and only from you.

  • I think that saying nothing at all is a mistake. I think Francis is making a mistake in saying nothing at all in response to Vigano’s gaslighting.

    I also think he is between a rock and a hard place, because popes do not squeal on their predecessors, and in order to respond to Vigano’s gaslighting, he would have to do just that.

    But above and beyond that, I do not agree that silence is in an inappropriate response to attempts to box someone in in the way Francis’ enemies are seeking to box him in. I often ignore taunting comments here from your ally floydlee for that very reason. Why should I let him or anyone else try to box me in by asking insincere questions to which he doesn’t even really want sincere answers?

  • “I think that saying nothing at all is a mistake. I think Francis is making a mistake in saying nothing at all in response to Vigano’s gaslighting.”

    It is really too late for Francis to salvage being passive-aggressive, particularly because it is the only style he knows.

    “I also think he is between a rock and a hard place, because popes do not squeal on their predecessors, and in order to respond to Vigano’s gaslighting, he would have to do just that.”

    Especially if doing so implicates them as well.

  • So divorce and remarriage are at the heart of the catholic faith. And here I thought it was the deathand resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Burke’s Mouth, drawn into that tight, little school marmish line, says it all.

  • At the heart of the Catholic Faith is a sacramental system empowered by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for mankind’s sanctification.

    Among those sacraments is marriage, which is that individual union through which man and woman by their reciprocal rights form one principle of generation, thus sharing in God’s creative action and forming the basis of a family, which is the building block of human society.

    Mouths among some folks – see JoeMyGod.com for examples – are sometimes used for less noble actions the descriptions of which are probably inappropriate.

  • Under the past three immediate predecessors of Pope Francis, we have seen the Church lose tens of millions of those who used to participate in the faith. What hasn’t worked out very well is the pull back from what was begun in Vatican II – the opening the church to recognize what had changed in the world and the need to recognize and explore how the Church can bring the message of Jesus into the world of today.

    Where are we now in the number of Catholics who are practicing their faith in the U.S.? I think it is something like 1/3 of those raised Catholic leave and of those who stay something like 40-50% actually go to Mass each Sunday. In Australia, it is something like 12% of Catholics actually go to Mass each Sunday. Don’t know the stats in Europe, but it isn’t what it used to be. Confession as a sacrament is rarely used by most all Catholics. Many (most?) Catholics are now being buried from the funeral home rather than the Church because they don’t see the need or the church/priest places limits or doesn’t provide the service the family wants.

    Yeah. Take a look at what Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI did. “That appears not to have work out very well” is a phrase that suits their many years extraordinarily well.

  • “Under the past three immediate predecessors of Pope Francis, we have seen the Church lose tens of millions of those who used to participate in the faith.”

    You’ve made this claim before. And every time it has been proven wrong.

    Yes, the Church loses some, but continues to grow.

    It lost almost the entire Middle East during one period.

    It gained Europe.

    “What hasn’t worked out very well is the pull back from what was begun in Vatican II – the opening the church to recognize what had changed in the world and the need to recognize and explore how the Church can bring the message of Jesus into the world of today.”

    What hasn’t worked out very well is what became known as “the spirt of Vatican II”, which in fact was an attack on Catholicism.

    “Where are we now in the number of Catholics who are practicing their faith in the U.S.?”

    You mean after the spirit of Vatican II, an abandonment of catechesis, a war on the Church’s teachings, and a vast sucking on the lemon of modernism? You mean after the self-fulfilling prophecy?

    Surprisingly the number is solid and growing, because the children of the opposition wound up outside the Church, failed to reproduce, failed to pass on their Faith, and left the Church to the people who actually showed up ever week.

    Over at the litterbox there is a brief discussion entitled “Quo Vadis, NCR?”

    The answer to NCR’s decreasing reach, relevance, and finances is simple: every time you see a picture there, or of Call to Action, or to any of the other similar groups, you see a sea of white hair with a few scattered feminist Buddhist/Catholic/Somethings and homosexuals.

    “Yeah. Take a look at what Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI did.”

    They appear to have tried to remedy the disaster your side of the discussion created.

    What is happening now with the homosexual uproar and the abuse uproar is the folks in the pews, which at the moment are all that count, see the harvest of dissent, of heterodoxy, and of wolves dressed as shepherds. They have had enough.

    Brace yourself for a bumpy ride, you’re not going to like what happens.

  • It has not been proven wrong. Yes, the Catholic church has grown in Africa, but it is increasingly losing ground in Europe, North/South/Central America, Australia. It is losing people who don’t want to practice their faith in the way it was practiced in the past – particularly with narrow rituals and harsh rules that simply do not reflect modern medicine, modern life, an educated populace, the way power is recognized and managed, and particularly the role of women in the world today.

    Say it all you want, Bob. The Catholic Church has lost ground everywhere in places where the Catholic faith was once considered strong. Paul VI, JPII, and BXVI did not stop the outflow. Not only did they not stop it – it increased. More, tens of thousands left the priesthood and religious life.

    It isn’t because of the Vatican II that the Church lost ground. It is because of the fearfulness of those who followed John XXIII to fulfill the promise of Vatican II that the Church can’t grow except in places where poverty and education are still enormous problems and where women have very little power.

    I suspect there may be a schism, an acknowledged one this time instead of the silent/quiet schism that has been going on for decades as people leave because the faith as it is taught and practiced does not feed the soul and heart. It does not deal in the world as it is but thinks it is still somewhere in the first millennium after Christ lived.

    Pope Francis gives some hope that we can find a way together to come together again.

  • “It has not been proven wrong.”

    http://graphics.wsj.com/catholics-world/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth#Roman_Catholic_Church

    “The increase was 33.02% in Africa, but only 1.17% in Europe. It was 15.91% in Asia, 11.39% in Oceania, and 10.93% in Americas. As a result, Catholics were 17.77% of the total population in Africa, 63.10% in Americas, 3.05% in Asia, 39.97% in Europe, 26.21% in Oceania, and 17.40% of the world population. Of the world’s Catholics, the proportion living in Africa grew from 12.44% in 2000 to 14.84% in 2008, while those living in Europe fell from 26.81% to 24.31%.”

    It actually increased in “ Europe, North/South/Central America, (and) Australia.” It simply did not increase at the same rate it had been.

    In Europe deChristianization and Islam are taking a tool.

    So, yes it was proven wrong, and has been proven wrong once again.

    “Say it all you want, Bob.”

    I certainly plan to.

    “The Catholic Church has lost ground everywhere in places where the Catholic faith was once considered strong.”

    As a result of nominal Catholics, opposed to its teachings (with which they are generally unfamiliar), failing to raise their children Catholic, apostate and/or homosexual clergy, and a collapse of catechesis.

    “It isn’t because of the Vatican II that the Church lost ground.”

    No, it was the result of people like Charles Curran, Richard Peter McBrien, and others fueling dissidents who failed to pass on the faith while they were busy giving the Church’s teachings the one finger salute. Anyone who has read National “Catholic” Reporter and its ilk since Vatican II knows full well where it went off the rails.

    It is because of the fearfulness of those who followed John XXIII to fulfill the promise of Vatican II that the Church can’t grow except in places where poverty and education are still enormous problems and where women have very little power.

    “Pope Francis gives some hope that we can find a way together to come together again.”

    Pope Francis apparently gave you and your friends hope that Charles Curran would be vindicated.

    Well, not only did that not happen but it is going the other way.

    The folks who stayed, who supported, who led, and who raised their children Catholic are ruling the roost, and the NCR crowd is dying out, just like Richard McBrien died out.

  • Not anger, not frustration. Just incredulousness at the fact that you would want to take the time and effort to try and change Roman Catholicism into Episcopalianism when you could simply go join the Episcopal church.
    You’d have everything you want theologically, plus a liturgy that’s maintained it’s beauty (and in most cases, it’s reverence) far better than anything to be found in the NO.

  • “I’d rather be one of those than you.”

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink it. (the horse is u)

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