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Seventeen years after 9/11, Muslims are still ‘presumed guilty’

Muslims hold signs saying "ISIS WILL LOSE" and "#TURNTOLOVE" on June 4, 2017, at the police cordon surrounding the site in south London of the deadly van-and-knife attack that killed several people. Many Muslims came out to condemn the attack. (AP Photo/Raphael Satter)

(RNS) When people ask Todd Green why Muslims don’t condemn terrorism — and they do ask, often — he has a quick response: “Have you ever Googled ‘Muslims condemning terrorism’?”

One of the top search results is MuslimsCondemn.com, an online database created almost two years ago by a 19-year-old college student. “You could spend all day on that site reading Muslims’ condemnations,” Green said.

The site lists statements from organizations like the Muslim Public Affairs Council and Islamic Society of North America; religious leaders like Imam Omar Suleiman and Imam Suhaib Webb; and political leaders and civil activists like London Mayor Sadiq Khan and Linda Sarsour, former executive director of the Arab American Association of New York.

Fatwas have been declared, campaigns have been launched, memorials and prayer vigils have been held — all in the name of standing up against extremism.

But somehow, Green says, some people seem to have missed out on how vocally most Muslims stand against terrorism, extremism and violence. In his new book “Presumed Guilty: Why We Shouldn’t Ask Muslims to Condemn Terrorism,” the associate professor of religion at Iowa’s Luther College cautions fellow non-Muslim Americans against what he calls not only a “troubling and unethical” double standard, but also “a form of racist scapegoating.”

And it’s not just anti-Muslim groups doing the scapegoating. Plenty of bona fide liberals and interfaith proponents have fallen into that trap, he says. New York Times columnists, former President Obama and even Pope Francis have urged Muslim leaders to condemn terrorism as though they aren’t already doing so, or asked why they are not.

Author Todd Green. Courtesy photo

“They’ve spoken out over and over and over again,” Green told Religion News Service. “If we’re still asking these questions, the trouble doesn’t lie with Muslims at all. It lies with something deeper in the non-Muslim majority population. That is the normalization of Islamophobia.”

The problem, Green says, is that the question in itself incorrectly presumes Islam causes terrorism. It also distracts from violence caused by Christians, Jews and atheists. 

Green, who previously wrote “The Fear of Islam: An Introduction to Islamophobia in the West,” served as a State Department adviser on Islamophobia in both the Trump and Obama administrations. Now, he has focused on this particularly common form of prejudice that “demands that (Muslims) constantly perform that role in the script, condemning terrorist attacks even though you know that the next time around they’re still going to ask you again.”

Not all of the misunderstanding is innocent. Anti-Muslim activists have fastened on “taqiyya” — the idea that Muslims who are facing extreme religious persecution can refuse to name their faith if they have a gun to their head, proverbial or otherwise. Ben Carson once described the term as “a component of Sharia that allows, and even encourages you to lie to achieve your goals,” a definition Islamic scholars criticized as a dangerously inaccurate oversimplification. But it has also been used to discredit Muslim condemnations of terrorism, along with anything else positive Muslims may do or so.

Green called this dismissal a time-honored trick used to demonize minorities, pointing to accusations in the early 1900s that Catholics were encouraged to lie to Protestants in order to impose the pope’s rule in America.

Balancing acts

Muslim activists like Heraa Hashmi, the creator of MuslimsCondemn.com, are working to change this mindset. At the Islamic Society of North America’s 2017 conference, Hashmi told how she was sitting in her class at the University of Colorado Boulder last year when another student sat down nearby. As their professor began lecturing on the the role of religion in European history, her classmate looked at Hashmi and asked, abruptly, “Why are Muslims so violent — and if they’re not, why don’t they condemn it?”

She told her classmate it was unfair to hold her to that standard, to ask her to apologize for the actions of a few, to paint an entire religion of 1.6 billion people with the same brush.

The conversation quickly turned tense, and Hashmi went home frustrated. She spent the next three weeks working on a 712-page spreadsheet listing examples of Muslim groups and leaders condemning violence, terrorism, sexual abuse, police brutality and more.

She posted the spreadsheet on Twitter, and within 24 hours it had been shared more than 15,000 times. With the help of two software developers who saw the tweet, Hashmi then turned her viral list into an online database that is continuing to expand.

Hashmi’s website has been well-received, and last year it helped earned her the Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research’s Muhammad Ali Confident Muslim Award. But she told TRT World she now fears that the very act of amassing Muslim criticism of terrorist acts might be playing into a false dichotomy of peace-loving, moderate“good Muslims” versus the America-hating “bad Muslims.”

Green, too, struggles to avoid the good Muslim-bad Muslim framework. How can he and his colleagues show Muslims’ patriotism and their contributions to America, without pushing the idea that “good” Muslims join the army or the police academy while “bad” Muslims protest the Israeli occupation of the West Bank or the war on terror?

It’s a balancing act nobody has quite gotten right, he said. In his book, he looks at the juxtaposition of Muslims serving in the New York Police Department even as the NYPD’s controversial surveillance of Muslim communities has drawn federal lawsuits.

The other victims

About a month after the National September 11 Memorial and Museum opened in New York City in 2011, Green visited the site. He left feeling more connected to the pain and loss that marked that tragic day, but he writes that the museum pays attention to only some of those hurt by the events 17 years ago.

“There are far more victims of the 9/11 attacks than the almost three thousand people killed that day,” Green wrote. The memorial doesn’t mention the many civilian casualties of the subsequent War on Terror in Afghanistan and Iraq, or the documented torture that took place in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay or CIA black sites. America, Green says, has been quick to forget its Muslim victims.

“Presumed Guilty: Why We Shouldn’t Ask Muslims to Condemn Terrorism” by Todd Green. Image courtesy of Fortress Press

Green began writing “Presumed Guilty” almost a decade ago. Since then, he told RNS, Islamophobia has gotten worse. In recent years, anti-Muslim hate crimes have reached a record high, far exceeding the spike in attacks that occurred in the wake of 9/11.

Green cites the way Islamophobia has become a campaign tool used to galvanize voters. During their presidential campaigns, now-President Trump famously said “I think Islam hates us”; now-Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson said Muslims shouldn’t be allowed to become president; and Sen. Ted Cruz talked about patrolling Muslim neighborhoods.

While Green has plenty to criticize in the Bush administration’s response to 9/11, he recalls how President George W. Bush moved to quell distrust of Muslims in the days after the attacks.

“We have regressed very far from his defense of Islam as a religion of peace,” Green told RNS. “I can’t imagine any major Republican candidate in the last election cycle using that language.”

About the author

Aysha Khan

Aysha Khan is a Boston-based journalist reporting on American Muslims and millennial faith for RNS. Her newsletter, Creeping Sharia, focuses on Muslims in the U.S. Previously, she was the social media editor at RNS.

410 Comments

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  • There is still too much Islamic terrorism in the world. Nobody cares about apologies, we just want it to stop.

  • Conservative Christians are quick to condemn every Muslim in the world for being a would-be terrorist simply because the Quran says to kill indefels, all while conveniently ignoring the fact that the Christian Bible does the very same thing – in the New Testament, no less, e.g. Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 17. Look it up.

  • Well you can start by not enabling it here.

    The easiest way to promote radicalization is with stuff like:
    1. Deliberately targeting Muslims for legalized discrimination
    2. Ignoring efforts by American Muslims in turning in potential terrorists in their midst
    3. Claiming the US is at war with the entirety of Islam
    4. Demonizing refugees fleeing terrorism and dictatorship abroad
    5. Attacking our own civil liberties and free way of life for the phantom notion of “protecting ourselves”. It does the opposite.
    6. Promoting bigotry in casual discourse and public policy.

    The best weapon against Islamic Terrorism is good old fashioned loyal freedom loving Americans. Protect our diversity and “gray zones”.
    American Muslims turn in lots of terrorists
    https://warisboring.com/american-muslims-turn-in-lots-of-terrorists/
    Islamic State’s assault on the gray zone.
    https://warisboring.com/the-islamic-states-assault-on-the-gray-zone/

    Your average Islamaphobic pundit is nothing more than an unpaid stooge for ISIS. Someone who parrots their propaganda at face value and works towards their goals. But is far too short sighted and hateful to see they are actually doing exactly what the terrorists want them to do.

  • What, you never knew this about 9/11? That “Muslim victims” ARE, in fact, the ONLY intended “victims of the 9/11 attacks”! Recall “President George W. Bush … in the days after the attacks”. ‘Nuff said.

  • I would daresay orthodox Catholics are “conservative Christians” in your lingo.

    That Church has done much to condemn judging every Muslim by some.

    There is no part of the Old Testament binding on Christians that says to kill infidels.

  • Let me be clear, up-front: I don’t support Islamophobia, or the movement I’ve referred to as “the Great Neocrusade.” That said, maybe it’s time for a little honesty here. 

    First, while this article focuses on Muslims still being asked to condemn terror, some 17 years after the 9/11 attacks, the kinds of terror attacks in question remain an ongoing phenomenon. Just a couple days ago, for instance, one was attempted at Lyon-Saint Exupéry Airport

    Second, the problem isn’t that Islam “causes” terror attacks. It is, rather, that the terrorists say they do what they do, because of Islam. In some cases, the terrorists believe Islam directs them to do what they do; in others, they’re simply are using Islam to justify their terror. The question of whether or not Islam actually “causes” terror is something only followers of that religion are able to resolve. Outsiders literally have no say in the matter. But … since there are some Muslims out there who, in fact, keep using Islam to justify their terror or who believe, for whatever reason, that they’re obeying Islam … it’s clear that the world’s Muslims haven’t yet settled this question. 

    They may believe they have, but they haven’t. 

    Third, this brings up what is — for me — the vastly-larger question of what happens when metaphysics of any kind is used to propagate evil. It’s not only Islam that’s used this way, and anyone who says it is, is lying. Other religious traditions can lead to terrorism, too. As a rule, and collectively, humanity grants far too much deference to religious belief. Devout belief is respected more than it should be. Terror being carried out in the name of religions other than Islam remains an ongoing problem. 

    Anyone who demands Muslims condemn terrorism, but who belongs to some other religion, needs to shut up, look in the mirror, and ask, first, what s/he is doing about extremism within his/her own faith. This just happens to be especially true of Christians, whose Jesus reportedly told them: 

    “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” (Mt 7:3-5

    What’s happening here — from my point of view, as a cold-hearted, cynical, godless agnostic heathen who belongs to no religion (and never will) — is that all the demands being made of Muslims to condemn terrorism, are just a form of deflection. That said … there probably would be no continuing calls to condemn this kind of terror, if it would just freaking stop already! Every raging nutjob who goes on a rampage while screaming “Allahu akbar” is naturally going to trigger this sort of request. Given human nature, it can’t not happen. The ultimate solution is to reform every religion (not just Islam!) so that no faith on earth can ever be used to justify terror. 

    Yeah I know. Good luck with that. But hey … I can dream, can’t I? 

  • Soooooo, radicalization is only a result of American immigration policy? Gotcha. Wonder why Europe has to pay the price for our wrongdoing.

    Interesting, it has nothing to do with child indoctrination or the willful following of hate inspired imams?

    I have to admit, if American Muslims are against terrorism, just like any other American (should be); that is fantastic and reason to celebrate. They need to get on TV and say it loud and proud. The problem is, people don’t hear about it. All the average American sees after some sort of terrorist attack is the lefties from CAIR spout off the same talking points that spuddie used above.

  • Of course you can dream all you want, “just look in the mirror and tell yourself to shut up” when you wake up. It’s your golden rule, after all.

  • Nope. But obviously your need to say something contrary in response was way too much. Hence the ridiculous response by you.

    The unofficial policy of demonizing Muslims and their faith carried out by conservatives has no beneficial effect and enables terrorists. If you don’t want to create hotbeds of radicals, don’t give them the means of setting them up.

    “Interesting, it has nothing to do with child indoctrination or the willful following of hate inspired imams?”

    I see your usual nonsense of setting up strawman arguments because you don’t want to address what was actually said. How immature of you.

    “They need to get on TV and say it loud and proud ”

    They are and they have been. Conservative politics of bigotry and demonization are all about ignoring such facts and repeating the same nonsense talking point over and over again.

    Generally after a terrorist attack here or abroad, we see people like yourself howling for blood, demanding collective punishment of Muslims, making panic talk about immigration and refugees. If anything people like myself come after the fact to point out how scared derps are harming themselves in the process.

  • Massacres & assassinations are only collateral damage in the latter. Hence the worst kind there is. The real enemy close to home never dares to show their faces, but 9/11 Truthers have always known, many of whom are of the same flesh & blood with “the guys that got shot or blown up.” A few of them believe as I do that, according to Revelation, God & Jesus shall avenge!

  • Well, let’s start with the Christian New Testament, shall we?

    You made sure to leave it out of your discussion.

    So, you agree that the NT does NOT tell anybody to kill infidels?

  • They wouldn’t be able to use religion to justify it, would they? And they wouldn’t be able to vacuum up recruits using that religion, would they? 

  • Yup. Typical liberal – no responsibility for ones actions. Someone made them mad so they harmed others:
    2001. New Delhi
    2002. Bali
    2004. Madrid
    2004. Beslan, Russia
    2005. Amman
    2005. Egypt
    2006. mumbai
    2008. Mumbai
    2010. Moscow.
    2011. Nigeria.
    2012. France.
    2013. Kenya.
    2014. Nigeria.
    2014. Grozny.
    2014. Canada.

    No demonization. Just facts.

  • You underestimate human ingenuity and inventiveness. History tells us that secular ideologies work just as well as religious ideologies as excuses for the nutjobs.

  • Re: “History tells us that secular ideologies work just as well as religious ideologies as excuses for the nutjobs.” 

    I’m all for eradicating ideologies … most of them are predicated on wishful thinking and metaphysics, as it is. But until we can do that too, I’ll take reining in religious extremism. 

  • What I’m saying is, Massacres & assassinations are only collateral damage in the latter. Hence the worst kind there is. The real enemy close to home never dares to show their faces, but 9/11 Truthers have always known, many of whom are of the same flesh & blood with “the guys that got shot or blown up.” A few of them believe as I do that, according to Revelation, God & Jesus shall avenge!

  • Wow a bunch of Muslims could do all that! Which makes them stronger, smarter, savvier than CIA, Pentagon, MI6, NATO, Germany, France, Saudi Arabia, Israel & Australia put together?! No wonder Russia & China are going it alone and becoming New Super-Power Rivals of the Old Super-Power. Enough of this Eurocentric Nonsense, they must’ve been saying to each other.

  • …part of the Old Testament binding on Christians…

    That’s a new concept that I haven’t heard of. Who exactly decides which parts are binding and which parts are not binding on Christians?

  • You can eradicate all you want. But human nature needs and invents ideologies. If you want to eradicate all ideologies, you will have to radically change human nature first, because for every one you get rid of, humans will invent another one.

  • If you are referring to Acts 15, then it basically said that Christians don’t have to follow most all of the Hebrew Bible, like 99.9%. I doubt that is what BA was referring to because it doesn’t actually speak to the Hebrew Bible, just the Mosiac Law. Do try to know of which you speak!

  • That was all settled in the First Century, part of which is described in the account of the Council of Jerusalem.

    I am rather surprised at the number of things you think are “new concepts” that are part of the fabric of the Christian tradition.

  • Actually as I said below, the meeting described in Acts 12 did nothing about deciding what parts of the Hebrew Bible apply to Christians, it spoke solely to the Mosaic Law for Gentile Christians. You’re digging yourself a big hole with this line of thought.

  • Actually as I said, there was a process that took place in the first century, of which the Jerusalem Council was PART, in which the Christians delineated what carried forward and and what did not from the Jewish texts.

    The moral law carried forward, the cultic law did not.

    What you’re making clear is that your familiarity with Christianity puts you in a weak position to distinguish traditional Christianity from cults .

  • The debate stops with the following passages from the Koran: (And the the “out of context” excuse, imams and Muslim terrorists don’t follow your excuses but follow the literal word of your Koran.

    o “Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)
    o
    “Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons…he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home…” (Surah 8:12-)

    “Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Surah 8:36-)

    “…make war on the leaders of unbelief…Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them…” (Surah 9:12-)

    “Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (Surah 9:29-)

    “It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it.” (Surah 9:31-)

    “If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men.” (Surah 9:37-)

    “Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home.” (Surah 9:73)

    “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” (Surah 9:121-)

    “Say: ‘Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom…” (Surah 17:111)

    “‘How shall I bear a child,’ she [Mary] answered, ‘when I am a virgin…?’ ‘Such is the will of the Lord,’ he replied. ‘That is no difficult thing for Him…God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!…Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood…” (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

    “Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him…He has given you the name of Muslims…” (Surah 22:78-)

    “Blessed are the believers…who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)…These are the heirs of Paradise…” (Surah 23:1-5-)

    “Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Surah 48:29)

    “Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?…Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents…They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets…Blessed be the name of your Lord…” (Surah 55:52-66-)

    Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

    Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”

  • Well that was stupid.

    And this is relevant to my entire spiel about preventing the spread of radical Islam by not giving in to terrorist narratives and tactics how? It isn’t.

    “no responsibility for ones actions. Someone made them mad so they harmed others:”

    Not what I said or even remotely came close to saying at all. I guess strawman burning is far easier for you to do than having an adult conversation and addressing what others are saying. You are arguing a point nobody is making here.

    Typical conservative derp can’t go past canned talking points and doesn’t understand the conversation.

    “No demonization. Just facts”

    No facts either. Since you failed to make much of a point there to connect the dots in your head. Please elaborate. I need a laugh.

  • Your ideas have been tried out in several countries: India, UK, Israel, US. They don’t work.

    Generally what happens is this. Even left-leaning governments are forced to use violence or military attacks against Muslims. Obama is an example. Obama is a nice man personally; still, as President, he ordered attacks on Middle Eastern countries, and those attacks did kill innocent Muslims.

    The Muslims know this. This is how Muslims talk. If the current US President is right-wing, Muslims blame him personally, eg, “Trump is anti-Muslim.” If the current US President is left-wing, Muslims blame the state, eg, “The American state is anti-Muslim.”

    It’s the same wording in India too. The previous prime minister of India was left-wing, so Muslims would say, “The Indian state is anti-Muslim.” Now, Muslims say, “Modi is anti-Muslim.”

    Why is that left-leaning liberals lack credibility with Muslims? It is because left-leaning liberals infantilize Muslims; persuade Muslims that the right-wing is out to get Muslims; set themselves up as protectors of Muslims.

    Implicit in these moves is the assumption that Muslims cannot fend for themselves—this is how left-leaning liberals infantilize Muslims.

  • Actually quite the opposite. You miss the point wildly. I am not talking about what we do to Islamicists abroad, where they are getting tons of material, financial support and heavy weapons. There are international political considerations there making the issue far more complicated than merely going to war with “Muslim countries” which is too complicated to deal with in one post.

    When governments go out of their way to antagonize Muslim immigrants/resident populations they create a climate which makes it easy for terrorists to operate. Terrorist campaigns operate with an infrastructure of sympathetic civilian supporters. Impoverished and oppressed communities. That has always been true of terrorism regardless of what cause they support.

    France is a great example as to how that happens. France (Continental Europe in general) has multigeneration immigrant slums and makes little to no effort to integrate refugees. Lack of a sane naturalization policy and citizenship by birth create an oppressed, impoverished immigrant community which even if born in the country has no say or part in it. Which makes it eager to give support to terrorists.

    Israel, UK and India have all gone out of their way to keep Muslim populations a separate and despised minority. Israel and India also have to contend with hostile neighbors who are Muslim majority countries which complicates the situation and your example.

    The US is actually quite different in respect that they have a long history and system for integrating immigrants and refugees. Especially those of minority faiths. No country has the same success in taking in refugee waves and making them part of the nation. Most don’t even try.

    Despite the ignorant natterings of US conservatives, major Muslim enclaves like those in Michigan, California, New York and New Jersey are hardly hotbeds of radicalism. They are generally economically well off and invested in the country. A long way off from the Paris suburbs or having a hostile nation/peoples at your borders with a history of irregular warfare.

    As my prior link shows, they are actually on the forefront in combating terrorism in their communities. Cooperating with authorities to turn in terror suspects. The US has world’s the largest Muslim convert community as well, meaning it is not even an issue of immigrants either, but native born citizens and their religious beliefs.

    “Implicit in these moves is the assumption that Muslims cannot fend for themselves—this is how left-leaning liberals infantilize Muslims.”

    As my prior link shows, they are fending for themselves quite well. Its just they are not getting recognition for it.

  • just 5 chapters into the new testament one finds jesus saying 17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 Amen,
    I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter
    or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law….”

    much as been written about what that means, but, know, many read it and misunderstand it .

    just as many read and misunderstand the qur’an .

  • You seem a little irritated this morning, BobBob. Better have your caretaker do that special thing that makes you feel so, so good, bless your precious little heart.

  • You seem even more irritated, BobBob. Your caretaker needs to take that special thing that makes you feel so, so good to the next level, bless your precious little heart.

  • Ending the debate using the Koran’s directive to slay or harm all infidels:

    Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

    Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”

    Ahhh, the “out of context” excuse. Your imams and terrorists don’t follow your excuse but follow the literal word of your Koran.

  • You and your therapist don’t seem to be making any progress on your obsessive/compulsive personality issues, BobBob. It is probably time to find a new therapist, bless your precious little heart.

  • Gee, you seem to be trying to palm yourself off as something you’re not, constantlystumped.

    It must be annoying the h-ll out of you – this is third response in two hours when you normally only take potshots every two to five days.

    Since you’re fully engaged, perhaps we can back up and find out what your complaints are about “manly men” and “womanly women”.

    And your fixation on the DSM-x, is that from being a patient or delivering mind maven goodies yourself?

  • We should be kind to Muslims who want to be kind to us. We should not take it upon ourselves to brag on Islam as a philosophy. Of course we can find good people who happen to be Muslim who will denounce terrorism all day long. But none of them can alter any words from Muhammad or, for that matter, apply an effective talking cure to the governments of Saudi Arabia or Iran or to the radical groups such as Taliban, ISIS and Boko Haram.

  • Well, 78 years after Hitler’s Third Reich, and after millions died in gas chambers, in
    ovens, by hanging, being mass executed, having Un-Godly experiments performed
    on other HUMAN BEINGS, the NAZI’s are
    ‘STILL PRESUMED GUILTY” as hell also.

    What kind of mind (associate professor at Luther College, Todd Green) thinks this nonsense
    up?

    17 years ago, and ever since, these people have been jumping for joy at the success of
    their maniacal and barbaric “brothers of their BOOK” on 9/11/2001 –
    and have reveled in it, and even denied it actually happened in the first place.

    They have also been up to nothing but Jihad (In MANY FORMS including UNSPEAKABLE
    BRUTALITY) ever since—and ALL OVER THE GLOBE.

    Carrying a bunch of ridiculous signs around just cover up for the SIN, nor provide
    absolution for all the SINS committed since..

    Dear associate professor Green, please do us all a favor, and petition the trustees
    of Luther College, and request that they remove “Luther” (Martin Luther) from
    the name of that institution immediately, and rename it as The Saul Alinsky technical “community”
    grade school, specializing in the Cloward-Piven strategies, and the Karl Marx “social
    justice” course study series. At least that would be honest.

    I am looking at your picture; and into your eyes, and seeing the back of your vacuous head I
    think.

    Martin Luther would be mortified if he were still alive. Winston Churchill and Thomas Jefferson as well..

  • Jesus clearly considered Scripture to be authoritative, even “unbreakable” and “the word of God” in John 10:35 — and that even includes the massive destruction of Jericho…

    ….Also includes God”s command for Israel (not you and I) to totally delete the Amalekites, and there’seven the planet-wide Flood of Noah’s day. which God Himself executed all by Himself. Jesus does not back down from any of this history, as He says how authoritative Scripture is. It’s the unbreakable word of God, period.

    But that don’t mean the Bible commands you and I to kill infidels. That’s just somebody trying to do some quick (and inaccurate) deflection because of what the Koran said.

  • Did you forget /sarcasm at end of your post? The Nazi’s are guilty for the atrocities of WWII Germany…what a weird comment to question why they wouldn’t be. Now, the question the professor would ask is are Germans (all Germans) to be held accountable for what went on under Nazi rule in Germany? The answer, of course, is no. It is not nonsense to question why people blame an entire population of people be it because of their nationality, religion, sex, race, etc. for the actions of a minority within their group. Are Christians guilty of hate just because WBC exists?

  • Hello… Knock Knock… Anyone Home?

    This nonsense has been going on for well over 1,400 years, and still counting..

    Most of the rest of civilization has actually evolved. …The Christian OLD Testament, and the Jewish Torah “DO THE SAME THING”? Really? Where do you see any of that going on today? Israel is presently dodging rockets almost every day, and I see no Jewish or Christian suicide bombers, or masked men with dull knives sawing off the heads of anyone from anyone else other than guess what “cult”ure..

    And if you even point to the “inquisition”, only 2,500 people actually died during that sad period in world history. Sad, but there you have it. And, “The Crusades” (more than one by the way) was the push back against all of what we are now seeing emerge once again today.

    But, c’mon..

    Can anyone say, please join us in the 21st C-e-n-t-u-r-y..?

    Put away the knives, the swords, the rockets and AK’s, and the sharia law nonsense as well as the barbaric practice (among more than a few) of FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION, quit marrying children, beating women, engaging in serial rape of little girls and boys, killing
    your neighbors who choose NOT TO BOW DOWN to this cult-like political ideology
    masquerading as a “religion” for cover, and, for God’s sake, JOIN the rest of US IN THIS CENTURY..

  • Nice attempt at a dodge, but no dice. You said “binding.” Laws are binding, and the church of the first century settled that question. History, poetry and prophecy are not “binding”, although lessons and wisdom may be drawn from them.

  • I’m not. I’ve heard too many ignoramuses offer up the tired and ragged bacon/shellfish/fibers canard like they just discovered something new and revolutionary instead of a 2000-year-old nonissue.

  • Yes, the JoeMyGod and AtheistsUberAlles fans just love to drag out OT passages that were already irrelevant 100 years before Jesus was born.

  • Stop lynching gay and trans people. I shouldn’t need to explain to a black person that lynching is wrong.

  • Interesting comment..

    However I live in Minnesota. Town by town city by city we are being colonized. Unfortunately, that is an irrefutable fact now.

    Once the population grows from only 2% now, to 5% to 10% of our population, and all facets of our systems (institutions to include government – law enforcement – the MN AG Office ad the Courts – and more) we will then become, what has become of Western Europe, the UK, and some of Australia.

    Sweden is now the rape capitol of Europe. France is currently building a bullet-proof glass wall around the Eiffel Tower. I have been to the “No-Go-Zone” in Paris. I could go on for days citing everywhere else this insanity does apply today. It is not pretty..

    This is not a “comparative religions of the world” discussion. This, for 1,400 plus years has been, and continues to be, a stealth, far-too-often barbaric, political ideology, masquerading as a “religion” for cover, and here in the US, hiding behind OUR US Constitution and OUR Bill of Rights for protection, whilst engaging in non-stop mischief, which is antithetical to western society and OUR American system of government, and OUR America way of life. This is the story of the Trojan Horse on steroids.

    Sadly, there is not one place on the planet, where this “social justice’ “welcoming” process has worked. No where at all. In fact, no where on the planet, where this well meaning “group hug” has not worked out miserably for any society or nation, which has tried this experiment, and failed miserably, for the indigenous population in what have now become intentional “occupied territories” of the planet…followed by insane crime, violence, squalor, and saturated by all of the 7th century style barbarism for everyone and anyone in the path of it.. Disagree? Show me where and prove it please!

    Wishful thinking, or in Minnesota FEELINGS, does not make this “Welcoming Cities” group hug work, simply because well meaning and naive people WISH it so.

    My exposure to this political (Jihad) ideology began in the late 60’s. My impression then, as is true now, is that this is an extremely slick political machine, and backed by some pretty smooth and amazingly organized con-artists, who are relentless in their pursuit of eventual domination, followed by brutal control, and even more brutal enforcement of that control eventually.. Please show me where that is not the case.. You have the entire planet from which to work, and prove me wrong. Ready – set – go..

    Again for emphasis… This is NOT a “comparative regions of the world” course of study. The trap is when we westerners try to superimpose OUR values, and OUR go-along-to-get-along, “live and let live”, approach to this challenge, and begin to actually believe for a second, that this is about RELIGIOUS differences only.

    Can you say Taqiyya? It is a deliberate “process” followed by the “believers”, and it is slick.. It is also lethal for non-believers, sooner than later. Just ask the people of Sweden, France, Germany, and dozens of other countries today. Then comes the Jizya if you want to keep your property or your head, that is….

    A little clue: How many Christians or Jews, or any other religion, or culture are able to live in peace and harmony in Somalia, or any other place completely dominated by this “cult”ure?

    Please read “The Reliance of The Traveler” or “Milestones”, and then get back to me..

    While we are all busy pontificating about “Acts”, or Deuteronomy”, the Old Testament vs. New Testament, and so on, they a busy plotting and scheming, and using our natural inclination to “love thy neighbor” as a weapon against us.

    All the best, and good luck to you in your search.

  • Your rant is selective and rather ignorant.

    Christians didn’t stop killing each other over slight differences in sect until rather recently. Not even a full generation ago.They still don’t get along or respect other faiths in many ways., And then, only because their churches lost official government entanglement.

    Israel currently has passed a law to make the country one with an official endorsed religion and people belonging to others being literally second class citizens. Just like the rest of the Arab world you decry.

    Suicide bombers didn’t come from Muslims, it came from Hindu terrorists lacking funding. Masked men sawing off the heads of anyone other has been going on for all faiths. White Supremacists are Christian terrorists. They are thriving in the US and Europe. Dominionists are people who have no problem with entangling governments with their singular version of faith. Just like the Taliban. If you oppose Islamicist theocracy because you want a Christian theocracy, you are the problem as well.

  • “apply an effective talking cure to the governments of Saudi Arabia or Iran or to the radical groups such as Taliban, ISIS and Boko Haram.”

    Actually they are effective in recruiting people to fight them. Who provided the boots on the ground when ISIS was routed from Syria and Iraq? It wasn’t us, NATO or any European country. It was Kurdish and Shia militias.

    Why is Saudi Arabia so annoyed with Qatar to the point of almost outright war? Because Qatar has the nerve to publish news articles critical of the Saudi monarchy through Al Jazeera.

  • Re: “But human nature needs and invents ideologies.” 

    Yes, and they’re nothing but arbitrary collections of tropes assembled for the benefit of those who invent and/or promote them — not for anyone else. 

    Re: “If you want to eradicate all ideologies, you will have to radically change human nature first, because for every one you get rid of, humans will invent another one.” 

    I’m all for human nature being changed! Humanity is far too childish, irrational, and immature. 

  • “However I live in Minnesota. Town by town city by city we are being colonized”
    Oooh a white supremacist trying to invoke “Brown Peril” nonsense.

    Oooh scary people of color are moving into your rust belt urban blight and improving the economy and bringing in new businesses.

    “I have been to the “No-Go-Zone” in Paris.”

    So you are a liar as well.

    The No-Go zones do not exist.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/01/paris-mayor-to-sue-fox-over-no-go-zone-comments/384656/

    “far-too-often barbaric, political ideology, masquerading as a “religion” for cover, and here in the US, hiding behind OUR US Constitution and OUR Bill of Rights for protection, whilst engaging in non-stop mischief, which is antithetical to western society and OUR American system of government, and OUR America way of life. This is the story of the Trojan Horse on steroids.”

    So like a good stooge of terrorists you want our free and democratic way of life to end or make exceptions based on the religion of people within it. To single out Muslims for official discrimination or harm under color of law. Just what terrorists need to recruit.

    Does ISIS pay you by check or wire your salary.

  • This is funny to you.. Good… Keep laughing. Western Europeans and the indigenous people of the UK are not laughing now.

    Interesting comment..

    However I live in Minnesota. Town by town city by city we are being colonized in Minnesota. Unfortunately, that is an irrefutable fact now.

    Once the population grows from only 2% now, to 5% to 10% of our population,
    and all facets of our systems (institutions to include government – law
    enforcement – the MN AG Office ad the Courts – and more) we will then
    become, what has become of Western Europe, the UK, and some of
    Australia.

    Sweden is now the rape capitol of Europe. France is currently building a bullet-proof glass wall around
    the Eiffel Tower. I have been to the “No-Go-Zone” in Paris. I could go
    on for days citing everywhere else this insanity does apply today. It
    is not pretty..

    This is not a “comparative religions of the world” discussion – or debate. This, for 1,400 plus years has
    been, and continues to be, a stealth, far-too-often barbaric, political
    ideology, masquerading as a “religion” for cover, and here in the US,
    hiding behind OUR US Constitution and OUR Bill of Rights for protection,
    whilst engaging in non-stop mischief, which is antithetical to western
    society and OUR American system of government, and OUR America way of
    life. This is the story of the Trojan Horse on steroids.

    Sadly, there is not one place on the planet, where this “social justice’
    “welcoming” process has worked. No where at all. In fact, no where on
    the planet, where this well meaning “group hug” has not worked out
    miserably for any society or nation, which has tried this experiment,
    and failed miserably, for the indigenous population in what have now
    become intentional “occupied territories” of the planet…followed by
    insane crime, violence, squalor, and saturated by all of the 7th century
    style barbarism for everyone and anyone in the path of it.. Disagree?
    Show me where and prove it please!

    Wishful thinking, or in Minnesota FEELINGS, does not make this “Welcoming
    Cities” group hug work, simply because well meaning and naive people
    WISH it so.

    My exposure to this political (Jihad) ideology began in the late 60’s. My impression then, as is true now, is
    that this is an extremely slick political machine, and backed by some
    pretty smooth and amazingly organized con-artists, who are relentless in
    their pursuit of eventual domination, followed by brutal control, and
    even more brutal enforcement of that control eventually.. Please show
    me where that is not the case.. You have the entire planet from which
    to work, and prove me wrong. Ready – set – go..

    Again for emphasis… This is NOT a “comparative regions of the world”
    course of study. The trap is when we westerners try to superimpose OUR
    values, and OUR go-along-to-get-along, “live and let live”, approach to
    this challenge, and begin to actually believe for a second, that this is
    about RELIGIOUS differences only.

    Can you say Taqiyya? It is a deliberate “process” followed by the “believers”, and
    it is slick.. It is also lethal for non-believers, sooner than later.
    Just ask the people of Sweden, France, Germany, and dozens of other
    countries today. Then comes the Jizya if you want to keep your property
    or your head….

    A little clue: How many Christians or Jews, or any other religion, or culture are able to live
    in peace and harmony in Somalia, or any other place completely dominated
    by this “cult”ure?

    Please read “The Reliance of The Traveler” or “Milestones”, and then get back to me..

    While we are all busy pontificating about “Acts”, or Deuteronomy”, the Old
    Testament vs. New Testament, and so on, they a busy plotting and
    scheming, and using our natural inclination to “love thy neighbor” as a
    weapon against us.

    A great number of “intellectuals” ended up in boxcars, headed for concentration camps in Hitler’s time, and they too were far too cavalier about the threat they refused to face, until it was far too late. My Dad fought this THING during WWII in Europe and in N. Africa., and liberated some of those camps. I have seen to photos..

    Unfortunately mankind is a sinful creature, and human nature never really changes. These folks, and their political war machine, have no governor switch, and are, in my view, just that much more evil than most, and they are proud to be that way, and happy in their work. 1,400 plus years worth, and counting..

    All the best, and good luck to you in your search for nirvana…

    How’s that for sarcasm?

  • Not sure if that was good sarcasm, but it certainly was a lot of crazy! Good luck to you in your paranoid, irrational world!

  • I was actually speaking to the ideas in Saudi Arabia and Iran that Islamic law supersedes other kinds of secularly-adopted law which might be ever be created by citizens. Admittedly Saudi, as a kingdom, is somewhat different from the present Iranian set-up. Other countries in that region also put Islam on pedestals it should not occupy with respect to civics, of course. My general point is that we cannot rely really on anyone who declares there should be no terrorism from Islam. Individuals and factions routinely go back to the holy writings and conjure up most anything they want—–often uncontrollably. ISIS, for instance, planned to try to capture the flag of Islam by declaring its own caliphate

    Looking back to G.W. Bush and 9/11, I understand why he wished to declare Islam a religion of peace——being “presidential” in a crisis. I don’t generalize about it to that celebratory degree myself. It is whatever someone says it is in a time or place. It has problematic writings at the root, some of those shared with Christianity and Judaism. I say, be NICE to everyone we can be nice to (and be wary of problematic root material.)

  • Re-read the paranoid message. Read the recommended books… Then…THINK for a while…and get back to me..

    You are correct sir about one thing, although you did not intend it to be interpreted this way. However, the reality of all of this is that it is “crazy” indeed..

    I have traveled and lived overseas for a very long time now. Grew up in the military.. Our perspectives are very different.. One trip ALONE to any “No-Go-Zone” and you might see it all very differently – IF you make it out of there unscathed pal..

    READ!

    THINK!

    It’s 9/11! TSA did not exist until after that horror 17 years ago.. It’s like a little clue..

  • “I was actually speaking to the ideas in Saudi Arabia and Iran that Islamic law supersedes other kinds of secularly-adopted law which might be ever be created by citizens”

    Theocracy. Its not a concept limited to Islam. Every religion when given access to political power uses belief as a way to seek control.

    Iran’s set up is essentially a political mirror of Communism without the economic theory behind it. An oligarchy dictatorship by committee rather than a single person or family. Even there, there is a huge generational dissent over religion and politics there. Islamicism has little

    Generally Islamicism follows dictatorship. Dictators used it as a way to drive out moderate and democratic minded opposition. Or they used it as a way to build up proxy forces in conflicts like Pakistan did in the disputed territories with India.

    Prior to 1979, these same “Muslim Countries” were largely secular nationalistic dictatorships. Religion not even factoring in to the political landscape. What people are claiming has been going on for 1400 years has really been 2 generations or so old.

    “My general point is that we cannot rely really on anyone who declares there should be no terrorism from Islam”

    You can literally say the same about every other religion or ideology.

    ” I say, be NICE to everyone we can be nice to”

    Words to live by. 🙂

  • Very sad – usually folks who spend time abroad have their minds opened a bit more. I know it sure did for me (after living in Europe for about a decade in various countries). Maybe I didn’t resist learning new cultures. In any event, there are no “no-go-zones”… Here is an interesting read: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sharia-law-muslim-no-go-zones/

    Yes, TSA did not exist until after 9/11/2001. What’s your point?

  • Nah. Its just terrorism got a lot more amateurish after the end of the Cold War. The professional terrorist ala IRA, Carlos, Red Brigades, Black September has given way to amateurs and suicide bombing.

    The money and resources going into international terror is just not there anymore. Its strictly DIY these days,

  • I think he is trying to say that democracy becomes the worst victim of terrorism. That we typically take shortcuts in our liberties and rule of law in combating terrorism. Something which follows the terrorist game plan or lays the groundwork to dictatorship.

    Maybe?????? (shrugs)

  • The “be nice” thing is always our personal obligation, unless or until it is impossible with certain persons. I am not a Muslim basher at all, but, as you know from other commentary we have written here, I am always skeptical of lefties who want to give Islam more credit than its roots deserve. There is this “Islamophobia” thing which keeps going around implying that we should not be “afraid of” one of the most restrictive world views on earth. I never understand why not (and yes, conceding of course that other religions have their own histories of “we are nuts” as well.)

  • “Seventeen years after 9/11, Muslims are still presumed guilty”
    Well, of course. The terrorists were Muslims, and they were motivated by Islam. It was Muslims who financed them. It was Muslims who gave them shelter in the US.

  • I have no idea what your real life experiences may or may not be. But, this one is particularly amusing. No “No-Go-Zones” huh?

    I have been to the one in Paris, and that was when it was brewing when I was there in 2000.

    NOW: See AP article, dated July 20, 2018 – entitled “Morocco Police to Patrol Paris Streets to Tackle
    Migrant Youth Gangs” In Paris. (“No Go Zone”). Macron now has 7,000 combat dressed and ready troops scattered all over t5he hot zones in France. They are not there to repel a foreign enemy. They are there to keep the peace, and for internal security.

    Then see: April 3, 2018 “A No-Go-Zone” in Minneapolis? by THE DEPLORABLE HOUSEWIVES OF THE MIDWEST
    Serving Up a Slice of Truth (It is called “Little Mogadishu”).

    Look these stories up please – on your own.

    Snopes? Really?

    Try reading: “No Go Zones: How Sharia Law Is Coming to a Neighborhood Near You” Hardcover – August 14, 2017 – by Raheem Kassam

    Sweden is now the rape capitol of all of Europe.

    TSA? My point? Really?

    What color is the sky in your world?

    How old are you anyway…2..?

  • What instigated the attack on the Twin Towers, Flight 93 and the Pentagon?

    And what drives today’s 24/7 mosque/imam-planned acts of terror and horror?

    The koran, Mohammed’s book of death for all infidels and Muslim domination of the world by any means.

    Muslims must clean up this book removing said passages admitting that they are based on the Gabriel myth and therefore obviously the hallucinations and/or lies of Mohammed.

    Then we can talk about the safety and location of mosques and what is taught therein.

    Until then, no Muslim can be trusted anytime or anywhere…………………………….

    And yes, Jews have significant issues with their OT:

    There are about 1,283,000 god-approved mass killings specifically enumerated in the Old Testament/Torah.

    The New Testament has only one major atrocity, that of god committing filicide assuming you believe in this Christian mumbo jumbo. Said atrocity should be enough to vitiate all of Christianity.

  • Really?

    I have no idea what your real life experiences may or may not be.

    But, this one is particularly amusing. No “No-Go-Zones” huh?

    I have been to the NoGoZone in Paris, and that was when it was brewing when I was there in 2000.

    NOW: See AP article, dated July 20, 2018 – entitled “Morocco Police to Patrol Paris Streets to Tackle
    Migrant Youth Gangs” In Paris. (“No Go Zone”).

    Also, Macron now has 7,000 combat dressed, equipped, and ready troops scattered all over the hot zones in France.

    They are not there to repel a foreign enemy. They are there to keep the
    peace, and for internal security.

    Then see: April 3, 2018 “A No-Go-Zone” in Minneapolis? by THE DEPLORABLE HOUSEWIVES OF THE MIDWEST
    Serving Up a Slice of Truth (It is called “Little Mogadishu”).

    Look these stories up please – on your own.

    Snopes? Really? …and I am a liar? Funny stuff..

    Try reading: “No Go Zones: How Sharia Law Is Coming to a Neighborhood Near You” Hardcover – August 14, 2017 – by Raheem Kassam

    Please read “The Daily Mail” from the UK.

    Sweden is now the rape capitol of all of Europe.

    You really need to grow up..

  • Yeah…you’ve been to a no-go zone in Paris. Give me a break. I lived in Paris at the time you even mention. No such thing. Are there rough parts in the Paris suburbs? Oh yeah, for sure. Run by Shariah law? Nope.

    Btw capitol is a building…but anyhow here is another article for you to read: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/

    Please, I do care about you as a fellow human being. Please for the love of all that is holy STOP ruining your brain with breitbart news and other right-wing nut job conspiracy websites. You are better than that, I know it!

  • You are a liar and your rebuttal is simply doubling down on the fiction.

    You post no links to the stories you cite. Telling me you are cutting and pasting from a hate site rather than conducting research or support. Typical of people who make crap up in inline discussions.

    Daily Mail is on par with the Washington Times and Fox News for putting out stories it later has to retract. Based on making crap up or uncritically repeating those that do. Moreover repeating garbage from neo nazis

    The Sweden thing is bullcrap too.
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/

    You are full of it. You made it clear you are not only lying bit taking stuff from obviously sketchy sources you are too scared to link to.

    Your real life experiences seem to involve rehashing debunked garbage from hate mongers. You are a stooge for ISIS in an obvious way.

  • OK young man..

    Pack a suitcase, and take your wife or daughter with you. Go to Paris, and go right into the area where the Moroccan Police are now patrolling. Hang a camera around your neck, so that you really look like a schlub tourist, and make certain that your wife is wearing western clothing.. Go deep into that area of Paris, IF the Parisian police will allow it, and stroll around for a day trip..

    Try some back ally shopping, and have a meal at the local hovel.

    In the past 12 months in the Minnesota area, we have seen serial child rape (more than a few), human trafficking, arson attempts (St Catherine’s Univ and the St Paul Cathedral), stabbings and sexual assault(s) at our Mall of America, numerous rape attempts, threats 3 days in a row by 30 Somali men, against Minnesota women at an inner city affluent Lake Calhoun park, MORE mall knife attacks, bombing attempt at the St Cloud MN City Hall, killings/shootings, a killing of a 40 year old Australian woman in Minneapolis, by a rogue PC selected Somali MPD cop – on July 15, 2017…now on trial for 2nd degree murder, and 3rd degree manslaughter, multiple Somali men sentenced for aiding ISIS, or for trying to join ISIS, so many cashes of guns, ammo, drone parts, bomb making materials discovered, Hundreds of Millions of stolen MN Taxpayer Dollars (more than 1/2 Billion Dollars ANNUALLY) and sent directly to Somali terrorists (ISIS – Boko Haram – and Al Shabaab, by way of – suitcase full of millions in cash (some caught at the MSP airport), and massive elaborate wire organized Crime style (THEFT) wire transfers FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW (All social services programs breached for years) – AND MUCH MUCH MORE.. WELCOME TO JUST MINNESOTA ALONE..

    And you want to quibble about the spelling of the word capitol vs. capital.

    You are one bombastic fool to be certain.

    Please take that recommended trip to Paris big guy.. I dare you..

    Via Con Dios..

  • My four years of graduate seminary hasn’t left me weak in my ability to distinguish “cults” or much else. It’s just that you preach here topics as settled in a particular manner and yet a simple web search finds scores of examples where conservative Christian ministers and teachers disagree with your position.

    Acts 15 was specifically to determine what Gentiles had to do with becoming a Christ follower.It doesn’t purport to be anything more or less. I asked you for a delineation of what was the process in your mind, but you just again make the claim and then try to use the occasion to insult me.

    Again, you’ve become boring with nothing of intelligence to add. Ta, ta.

  • The scores of conservative Christian ministers and teachers in the face of the millions, including especially the 85-90% in the apostolic churches, seem picayune.

    This should walk you through the major opinions:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_the_Old_Covenant

    The consensus appears to be the one I suggested.

    Since you say you began Anglican, this should be of interest:

    “Anglican and Methodist theology regarding the Old Covenant is expressed by their historic defining statements known as the Thirty-Nine Articles and Articles of Religion, respectively.”

    “Article 7 of the Church of England’s 1563 version and other versions, as well as Article VI of the Methodist Articles of Religion, specify only that Christians are bound by the ‘commandments which are called moral,’ but not bound by the ceremonial, ritual, or civil laws from the ‘law of Moses.'”

    You didn’t need to go to seminary for that – it’s in the Book of Common Prayer.

    So much for “boring with nothing of intelligence to add”, eh?

  • One last comment to correct your constant misunderstanding.

    Since you say you began Anglican

    I began as nothing, my family wasn’t overly religious, but I was baptized as a child and attended Anglican Church of Mexico services on occasion with an uncle. I joined the LDS Church at 18. I was excommunicated from the LDS Church when I was 27 because I was gay. A few years after (1981) I became active in TEC and was later confirmed by a TEC bishop. I attended two years of a UMC seminary at SMU and two additional years at a new ecumenical seminary in Seattle that is no longer functioning today.

    BTW, the Articles of Religion and the 39 Articles don’t date from the 1st Century, which was your claim. I’ll check your Wiki link.

  • What if “democracy becomes the worst [perpetrator] of terrorism”?

    “Maybe?????? (shrugs)”

    Thought-experiment with me on this one, Buddy.

  • Mentioning Linda Sarour as someone who condemns muslim terrorism? Are you kidding me. Have you done any research whatsoever on her. You have no credibility now. She has called on Muslims to not “humanize” Israelis. She has called for jihad against the POTUS.

  • The problem with your argument is: you have to go back 2000 years for that. Radical Muslims are doing it today.

  • You are as off your rocker as our president. It is incoherent babble. What the hell does your first paragraph even mean?! You act as if the only unsafe place to visit in Paris is that where there are Moroccans. That is hilarious. I wouldn’t go to certain parts of Paris 25 years ago. Just like there were certain parts of DC I didn’t go to as a kid. And when I was in my early 20s there were towns in Indiana (WHITE towns) that I made sure to avoid even as a white person simply because I was educated and not from there and I sure as hell avoided them if I was with my black friends. How’s that for a “no-go zone”? Funny, you criticize European cities as having No-go-zones because they are predominantly muslim (have you been to Montmartre? Pretty safe actually and there are a ton of Muslims there!) but in reality the only “no-go zones” that actually exist due to race or religion are in the USA!!

  • Out of curiosity do you sources for the rampant threats Somalis pose to your white Minnesotan womenfolk? Aside from the one case in 2016? Just curious. You would think even Fox News would cover the huge threat! Not a peep. But since rape of your white women kin is of primary concern to you, I assume you make them avoid white men at all costs since they pose the biggest threat in reality!

  • Ironically democracy was frequently a cause for terrorism. People trying to overthrow a repressive government and earn their freedom. 🙂

  • This deceptive screed so offended me that I had to scroll less than half way through it. I am disgusted!!! Muslims are guilty by association with Satan and his Messenger. They do not condemn terrorism because Islamic law, “Reliance Of The Traveller”, book o, chapter 8 8.0-1 specify the death penalty for apostasy. O8.7 lists twenty acts & attitudes entailing apostasy. o8.7-7 is broad: “to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus (def:
    b7) belongs to it, or to add a verse that does belong to it;”. To abjure terrorism, Muslims must deny A-Imran 3.151, Al-Anfal 8.12, 57 & 60 and At-taubah 9.120. In so doing, they would sign their death warrants. Dissing Moe is a death penalty offense: Ash-Shifa pg. 717. Moe said he was made victorious with terror, check it out in page 140 of Sahih Bukhari, volume 4. Islamic law requires every Muslim to be “an object of terror to infidels” on account of his liability to attack; Hedaya, volume 2, page 154. See my blog for full quotes and links. “Islam 101 For Politicians” and “Islam 101 For Clergy & Congregants”.

  • He is obviously cutting and pasting from a hate site.

    Even Fox News is saying Somali refugee community and descendants are improving the state. The main concern being basic racism of seeing more “black faces” in areas which were not very demographically diverse
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/23/somali-immigrants-find-growing-acceptance-in-minnesota.html
    “Our children are succeeding. The community is thriving. We play a role in the security and safety in our neighborhoods.””

    Not even close to the garbage Bob the Bigot is slinging

  • Where are modern day Christians & Jews attacking anyone on the basis of infidelity? In which New Testament book, chapter and verse [red letter edition] does Jesus Christ issue the functional equivalents of 3.151, 8.12, 8.57, 8.60 & 9.120? Metapohors, parables & allegories do not cut the mustard, show me imperatives!!! Did Jesus say he was commanded to fight with men? Did he declare victory through terror?

  • Jesus interrupted and terminated a lapidation. He commanded the disciples, when rejected, to kick the dust from their shoes and leave. Moe ordered lapidations and commanded his field commanders to invoke Allah and attacked when dawah was rejected.

  • Impossible! Moe is the “seal of the prophets”, there is no prophet after him. Allah’s crap is immutable. Only Moe could change it and he is long dead. Accept Islam as it is or curse it.

  • Your attacks on women’s reproductive rights are a violation of the 1st Amendment. Stop imposing your religious beliefs on others.

  • Do you prefer living in a cave or under a bridge?

    I always wanted to know where people are most likely to find trolls and to avoid them.

  • “Radical” is a lie! What Moe preached & practiced, what modern Muslims do is normative, not radical, extreme, perverted, distorted or hijacked. It’s Islam, Stupi!!!

  • Those are hypocrites, in whose hearts there is a disease and whose Islam goes no deeper than their throats, passing through like an arrow. They are to be gathered together into Hell with us. See Surah An-Nisa 4.89.

  • Reliance will cost him $38.00 at Amazon. There is one on line repository of fiqh books that has a pdf without the Arabic column, but it is difficult to find. Hedaya, in two volumes, can be obtained free from Google Books. The important part begins on page 139 of the second volume. For those who are not easily offended, there is “The Book Of Jihad”, find it in the internet archive.

  • Hoping you’d agree with me on calling this, “Terrorists Invented Democracy”, what do you think of it, Spuddie?

    “The people of Athens voted, democratically, in 427 BC, to put to death the entire adult male population of the town of Mytilene and to throw into slavery the women and children – thousands in all. As a punishment for changing sides in the great war between Athens and Sparta, this was brutal even by the permissive rules of ancient warfare. The next day the voters … sent a second message to their commander in the field … before the mass slaughter had been carried out. Under the new ruling, the number of executions barely reached four figures – a selective cull of the leading insurgents. Most ancient writers used this kind of incident … as an indictment … of the incapacity and fickleness of its democratic decision-making process. …They were acerbic, sometimes nasty critics of the power of the people, and [decided] that an intelligent autocrat or an elite cabal was less likely to make military or political blunders than a democracy.”

    Source: Mary Beard, “A Violent Experiment: The glorious myth of ancient Athens is a poor model for re-creating the virtues of government in the 21st century”, Greece Is, October 9, 2015.

  • Cute.

    I don’t like the blurring between terrorists and war criminals. It intentionally confuses a very real and very old distinction. Terrorists blend into a civilian population for both support and protection from reprisal. War criminals are people who are recognized as soldiers, who have segregated themselves from civilians by a “uniform” and distinguishing features. I do not ascribe to the notion of “state sponsored terrorism” is done by soldiers.

    Read about the same incident in “A War Like No Other” by Victor Davis Hanson. A very engaging account of the Peloponnese War. Hanson is an interesting and accessible scholar of Ancient Greece but a bit of a wingnut when it comes to modern history and politics (not really his area of expertise)

  • Islam is not a religion; it is an Arab Mafia disguised as a religion. Search for and read “Islam’s Mercenary Mission” and try to refute it point by point. See also Bukhari, vol. 4, pg. 108. The “Book Of Khumus” in the same volume, gilds the lily with details.

    Consider Islam in object oriented programming terms: an object having social, military, economic and religious properties and methods. It’s religious property is Jihad: war against non-Muslims with full force of arms. It’s economic method is plunder.

    The two worst sins are shirk: assigning partners to Allah. Read 8.1 & 8.41, Moe is Allah’s business partner. That shirk blows the religion claim out of the water. Ghulul: embezzling spoils is the second worst sin. That tells us what the real value of Islam is.

    In the matter of rights: Sahih Bukhari 1.8.387 denies our human dignity and rights, allows Muslims to kill and plunder us until we become Muslims. Read it and weep. Islam entails Jihad. Jihad entails plunder, pillage, rape & slavery In which article, section and clause of the constitution do you find the right to attack, plunder and enslave anyone who does not share your superstition?

  • Doubly “cute.”

    “IT IS HARD to think of many democracies that were not born in some manner out of war, violence, or coercion—beginning with the first example of Cleisthenic Athens in 507 B.C., and including our own revolution in 1776. The best examples are those of the twentieth century, when many of the most successful present-day constitutional governments were epiphenomena of war, imposed by the victors or coalition partners, as we have seen in the cases of Germany, Japan, Italy, South Korea, and more recently Grenada, Liberia, Panama, Serbia—and Afghanistan and Iraq.”
    ― Victor Davis Hanson

    Like I said, Terrorists invented Democracy, which, therefore, spawns Terrorism!

    America truly is The Mother of Invention.

  • Not all Arabs are Muslims. Not all Muslims are terrorists. But all Muslims are terrorists! Allah commands them to strike terror and terrorize in Surah Al-Anfal 8.57 & 8.60 For the clear explanation, open Guillaume’s “The Life Of Muhammad” to page 326. Allah awards Brownie Points for acts of terrorism in Surah At-taubah 9.120. For the clearest exposition, search for “Rewards Of Jihad” , by Ibn Kathir.

    On page 154 of the second volume of Hedaya, there is a discussion of the validity of letters of safe passage. In it, the jurist explains why every Muslim must be an “object of terror to infidels”. Read it and get a clue.

  • Yer interlocutor is a denizen of “Hate Watch” alias “SPLC”. It’s thick hide is impervious to all facts and logic. You are feeding a Troll.

  • While you dream the impossible dream, thousands are suffering from Islamic attacks and terror. If vampires were real, what would you have the government do about them?

  • Get out and meet a Muslim. Also your second and third sentences contradict each other; maybe check into that. But no, not all Muslims are terrorists. By your logic all Christians are as radical as the WBC. Well I know most of the Christians here are but there are reasonable Christians out there too! Just like there are moderate Muslims.

  • People are also suffering from Right-wing, Christian, and Buddhist terror … just to name a few. 

    The problem is the festering sewer of metaphysics. It doesn’t matter if a specific instance of it falls under the label “Islam” or not. People need to grow the hell up and get over their sanctimony already. 

  • It’s obvious that you don’t personally know any Somali immigrants. You’re the worst that Minnesota has to offer.

  • Unfortunately I do.

    Let’s start with the master “grifter” himself, Jaylani Hussein, the MN CAIR director.

    Not to worry however, in the last 3.5 years, Minnesota has lost $65 Billion Dollars of personal wealth, which has exited stage left – PERMANENTLY my friend, with many of the productive class to follow very shortly.

    Electrolux (ironicly, a Swedish company) is leaving for N. Carolina, along with other businesses and industries…PERMANENTLY..

    Very shortly, you and those just like you, will be standing your leftist ground alone, and just like Detroit, and this place will become bankrupt (like Detroit & California), while still bleeding red ink; by insane public policy decision making, and or by way of the continued THEFT (currently over 1/2 Billion Dollars per year – and for some time now) by these wonderful people you love so much, of anything that is not nailed down, tied down, or guarded by an armored tank division. (ALL social services programs in Minnesota have been breached) To them, you are nothing more than a liberal “SUCKER”, and fool (“a mark”), and you are proud of that..

    Now, that is absolutely hysterical to me at this point.

    I spent 10 years of my life serving on overlapping state-wide task force projects, connected to the MN Dept. of Human Services & MN Supreme Court, and 6 miserable years as a member of The (DHS) Commissioners Advisory Committee.

    Your credentials?

    Jaylani Hussein knows me by sight, and runs in the other direction when he sees me coming. Why? Because I get it, and I ask tough questions, for which he has no answers. Con-men never do..

    At least you did not reference these parasites as “refugees”. They are even reviled on their own home continent by their neighboring countries.. Now, along with every disease they have brought with them (Minnesota has imported an 80% share of all major communicable diseases – SOME QUITE LETHAL – for the entire US), they have the lemming crowd, like yourself, to defend all this.

    Good luck sport..

  • Muslim women have no rights, refer to “The Life Of Muhammad”, pg. 651. As for the rest, they have a right to keep their knees together. They have a right to reproduce if they find a willing and able husband. But there is no right to murder either before or after birth, except in Islamic law, which does not extend to abortion in the texts I checked.

    Your comment is recognized as a diversion from the topic at hand

  • By symbology and character traits, Allah is known to be the same as Sin, Moloch & Baal. Moe said that the bell is “the musical instrument of Satan”, “with every bell there is a devil” and “angels will not go with a company among whom there is a bell. He also said that he got revelations through the sound of a bell ringing in his head. He also told his favorite child bride that he had “an attachment of devils”. For quotes and links, see: “Islam Is Demonic”. For more detail, see: “Islam Is Not God”. You can find them in my blog.

  • Thank you for finding and alerting me to my error. I have corrected it. The Koran, canonical hadith and shari’ah told me what I need to know about Islam. Muhammad’s missives, collected by Waquidi, gave me a good introduction to Moe. Muslims are licensed to deceive, see Surah al-Imran 3.28.

    WBC is Unchristian. Islamic terrorists are not unIslamic. Allah commands them to “strike terror” and “terrify” and promises Brownie Points for “any strategy designed to terrorize an enemy”

  • Moe was a terrorist. He claimed to be an exemplary role model for all Muslims to emulate. He had his idol command them to engage in terrorism. There is no Christian or Buddhist equivalent.

  • That was all settled in the First Century

    This is the claim that you made. This is what I asked you to clarify and provide resources that back up that statement that what was binding on Christians was decided in the 1st Century. NOTHING to which you have linked speaks to any of that. It’s because you invented the concept.

    Moving on.

  • WBC takes the Bible literally. Christians who accept gays are the ones who are unchristian! God instructs Christians to kill gays in the Bible.

  • You’re racist, bigot scum. Do all of Minnesota and America a favor and move away to the s**thole country where you belong.

  • We know resident Nazi Roy Hobs was explicit about that view (see above)

    But it looks like HPO seems to be playing a slightly different and more subtle game.

    Or just trolling. 🙂

  • And I’m not a “leftist”, a$$hole – I am an AMERICAN. Take your lemming Trump BS and move to Russia.

  • Re: “There is no Christian or Buddhist equivalent.” 

    There most certainly have been, and are, both Christian and Buddhist terrorists: 

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/documents/religious-beliefs-of-joseph-konys-lords-resistance-army
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tasneemnashrulla/austin-bombing-suspect-mark-anthony-conditt
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/29/us/30abortion-clinic-violence.html
    http://world.time.com/2013/06/20/extremist-buddhist-monks-fight-oppression-with-violence/
    https://daily.jstor.org/how-is-buddhism-being-used-to-justify-violence-in-myanmar/
    https://theconversation.com/militant-buddhism-is-on-the-march-in-south-east-asia-where-did-it-come-from-86632

    To say they don’t exist is laughable. You can point your finger at “Moe,” and Muslims, all day long … but no amount of raging and fuming at them can ever magically change the fact that followers of many other faiths are guilty of atrocities and terror. It just can’t. 

    Either you’re mature enough to understand that reality, or you’re not. 

  • Yep! That’s what I thought all along little fella.

    All of my grandparents came to this country LEGALLY in the dawn of the 20th century, through Ellis Island NYC.. And, if you could see me, you would know that I am very ethnic.. “racist, bigot scum” eh?

    THEY all came here to work hard, and carve out a life without a “safety net”, no WELFARE, cradle-to-grave, and did so with HONOR and DIGNITY. My parents were cut from the same cloth Mr. Parasite.. I remain very proud of all of them..

    By your response, and your language, it is clear as to what sort of people raised you little fella…

    The definition of Canis suits you.. ..Your word, not mine..

  • Good quote. But terrorism is not the same as warfare. Confusing the two ignores about 2500 years of philosophy, legal thinking and conventions on the subject.

  • It would help if the major Islamic schools rejected the principle of the extension of Muslim domination through violence. The Sufis do for the most part, reserving violent jihad for defense, but AFAIK that’s the only major branch to do so.

  • This is a tough one. What other religion today has a large minority that has as part of its mission to kill infidels, non believers? None that I know of. That is the difference. Other religions may have done such things many years ago, but have moved on. But there are those using the Islam/Muslim banner to kill human beings that are inside or outside their religion in large numbers, even if it is a minority doing the bad deeds. I am not sure of the answer here, but one can see why there are doubts about Muslims.

  • Its more than that. He’s an unambiguous Neo-Nazi. The fool cites Holocaust denial sites, and glorifies Hitler. That crowd latched on to 9/11 Truther garbage early on.

  • Again, the Great Kibosh to the rescue making the Koran, OT, NT, Book of Mormon et. al. worthless:

    Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!

    • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.

    • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.

    • There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.

    • There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.

    • There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.

    • Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.

    • Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.

    • A constant cycle of reincarnation until enlightenment is reached and belief that various beings (angels?, tinkerbells? etc) exist that we, as mortals, cannot comprehend makes for a no on Sikhism.

    Added details available upon written request.

    A quick search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.

    e.g. Taoism

    “The origins of Taoism are unclear. Traditionally, Lao-tzu who lived in the sixth century is regarded as its founder. Its early philosophic foundations and its later beliefs and rituals are two completely different ways of life. Today (1982) Taoism claims 31,286,000 followers.

    Legend says that Lao-tzu was immaculately conceived by a shooting star; carried in his mother’s womb for eighty-two years; and born a full grown wise old man. “

  • Who does the New Testament say we can kill? Christian Europe has done a lot of killing in the last 2,000 years, conquering native lands around the world, with wars and inquisitions, the slave trade to the Americas, etc. 50 Million white European Christians killed each other in WWII Europe.

  • I believe they are referring to far right Islamists with their strict interpretations of the Qur’an and the religious obligation of holy war against the infidels, which has displaced millions of people in the last few decades, mostly Muslims.

  • I think it’s clear that although the Koran contains some very bad stuff, (1) there is probably no more “bad stuff” than in the OT, (2) in Western countries, at least, 99% of Muslims pay no attention to those verses, and (3) I’d guess that the percentage of “violent” Muslims is probably similar to that of violent “Christians”.

  • Isn;’t it fascinating how some “Christians” think their beliefs give them the right to impose those beliefs on others? And to spit in the face of Jesus by hating LGBTQ people?

    My experience as I’ve stumbled through life has been that the folks who are the most vocal or insistent on their “Christianity” are the ones who are the worst examples of true Christians.

  • What a pile of twisted lies. Let me make it real simple. MotheMAD was a horrible demonized freak who was certifiably insane and he knew it. As long as these utter pitiful fools are following that pile of camel dung as their “perfect man” and have him as their “prophet” all they can ever become is evil deadly fools. Muzslime should never ever be allowed to live among civilized human beings.

  • They do have their foundations, but what ever those foundations are, they evolved into mythology/ fantasy and fiction by later writers. Our founding fathers got it right in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”.

  • Eatranger, there is not ONE “moderate” muzslime who was ever born, they are all little deadly viruses right out of the womb. You need to actually learn something about izslime before you try to defend the vile lie from hell.

  • While I am no fan of Islam, but I would give you a “what for” if you said that to the Muslim doctor who helped to save my life in the hospital, and my Muslim neighbors who were the first to bring me a hot meal when I retuned hope. No need to offended 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. I suppose you think all Christians are walking the path of Jesus.

  • You have some true problems with logic. Oh well, if you subscribe to this characterization of muslims (probably having never ever talked to one – I guarantee), then you will accept that there is not one moderate Christian either. They are all like you and the Reverend Phelps and Pat Robertson – total nut jobs.

  • There are 1.6 billion Muslims and they are not all radicalized, but how many are? 1%? That’s still 16 million people.

  • Every act of “kindness” is pure jihad, it is clear to me that you actually know nothing about izslime or Christianity and you live from your widdle FEEWINS so I will trouble yo no more.

  • Acts of kindness come from the heart, not religion. But the weekly acts of terrorism that we read about in international news, in the name of Islam, has to have a name. International airports around the world have been on higher alert for decades, and it is not because they are afraid of an angry Jew, Christian, or Hindu getting on the plane to commit holy war.

  • “I spent 10 years of my life serving on overlapping state-wide task force projects, connected to the MN Dept. of Human Services & MN Supreme Court, and 6 miserable years as a member of The (DHS) Commissioners Advisory Committee.”

    I have zero reason to believe a word you said. You already lied about No-go zones and Minnesota being awash with sexual assault. So pardon me if your claims also lack the ring of truth to them.

    “Electrolux (ironicly, a Swedish company) is leaving for N. Carolina, along with other businesses and industries…PERMANENTLY..”

    Thanks to Trump’s trade wars with allies.

    “by insane public policy decision making, and or by way of the continued THEFT”

    Like a $1.5T looting of our public resources by the uppermost wealthy as approved by conservative politicians?

    “Jaylani Hussein knows me by sight, and runs in the other direction when he sees me coming. Why?”

    Because you are a frothing at the mouth lunatic. You made that absolutely clear.

  • “And, if you could see me, you would know that I am very ethnic.. “racist, bigot scum” eh?”

    White for all intents and purposes. Like most racists these days. If your grandparents had to go through the system we had now, they would be turned back.

    “THEY all came here to work hard, and carve out a life without a “safety net”,”

    They fought to CREATE a safety net! As did most people who lived through the Depression. You sir are a liar and a fool.

  • Too bad liars like Bob and yourself never want to back up your claims with online sources., I guess it is too embarrassing to reveal you are just cutting and pasting from the same couple of hate sites.

  • Christianity has for its entire history carried out such a mission. If not for secularism, they would still be doing it in developed countries.

    Thank you ISIS spokesperson. Nothing helps them more than declaring all Muslims are in league with terrorists and have a holy duty to commit atrocity. Parroting the terrorist propaganda verbatim, uncritically.

    You are really doing your bit to help terrorists recruit, find support networks and to attack the most effective weapon against them.

    You are a fine stooge. I wonder how much they pay you for such services.

  • Calling for the government to discriminate and attack people under color of law on the basis of their religious belief. Attack the democratic system and rule of law which creates the means to combat terrorism.

    Sounds like you are really doing your part to support ISIS. Way to go stooge!

  • I am a firm believer that one does not combat extremism by becoming an extremist. It doesn’t work, ever. My POV has less to do with anything related to Islam as it has to do with living in a free democratic society which must value religious freedom. Also lets face it, just on the facts the Islamophobes just plain get it wrong.

    There is no argument stating “___ religion is evil and must be eradicated” which can be viewed as sane or anything other than bigotry incarnate. Islam isn’t the sudden exception to that or things like the 1st Amendment. As I see it, the hate, the discrimination, the demonization only serves to benefit terrorists. It is exactly what they want us to do. It creates legitimately oppressed communities which serve as a support network.

    The IRA could not operate for as long and as successfully as they did without the discrimination against Northern Irish Catholics. ISIS can’t operate well in Europe without the multigenerational immigrant slums to hide in. One reason American Muslim Communities don’t follow such leads are the investment they have in the country. Their enclaves are fairly well to do, in some areas downright prosperous. Why should we destroy what has been working for us?

    You will find the “lefties” are more like me, and less about “not being afraid of Islam”. Ones who just find the politics of sectarian hate useless and counterproductive.

  • But lets not forget.

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”

    Just because you may despise a given religion, doesn’t mean the government has to act on it. Religious freedom protects our nation, it does not harm it.

  • Check a known hate site? Nope.

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-religion-of-peace/
    Extreme Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy, Hate Group

    “In reality, this is a website that promotes anti-Muslim propaganda through only posting negative information about Islam, such as crimes that may not be related to ones religion such as this where they link to a Mixed factual source. In general, this source links to other media that has a right wing bias or is otherwise questionable by our methodology. The Religion of Peace also sources Robert Spencer in articles, who is on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s hate list. Overall, we rate The Religion of Peace as Questionable for having an extreme right wing bias, promotion of conspiracy/propaganda and hate group tendencies. (D. Van Zandt 9/15/2017)”

  • OBL looking to make a name for himself. He went from a nobody to the most important terrorist ever.

    The attacks were a “demo reel” to the terrorist community. After the attacks Al Queda went from “People’s Front of Judea” level membership to “Hello Kitty” level of branding where everyone with an AK-47 and aspirations claimed to be part of them

  • Please get some counseling..

    Every word I wrote was true.. About all my work in Minnesota, as well as the present situation in Minnesota now.

    One very small, but not-so-insignificant example: Please look up: “87 year old Somali man arrested (again for the second time in the last 9 years) for serial child rape of a 4 year-old child until she was 11 years of age, in St Cloud Minnesota”. When he was 79 years of age, and convicted of the very same crime, he was given “20 years probation”, by a judge with his/her head up their judicial backsides. It is baked into the culture.. Ask Muhammed! He married Aisha at age of six or seven years of age. He was age 52.. Fact, not fiction! Look it up…

    The Jaylani Hussein reference: No.. It is because I have offered to debate him publicly, per a panel discussion comprised of national experts on this subject, and televised and recorded. He continues to hide from, not only me, but experts relating to this subject.

    By the way, Islam nor Muslim is a “race” of people. It is a political ideology..

    Electrolux is (has) left Minnesota, and headed to S. Carolina near Greenville SC, for a variety of sound economic reasons, as well as the impact of this toxic environment I have described, and having nothing to do with Mr. Trump, and or any international trade matter. If that were true, why would they only move from one US State to another.. THINK!

    PS… Your pal Obama raised the national debt by almost 12 Trillion Dollars – from 9 Trillion (all the debt combined from George Washington through Mr. Bush combined) to 21 Trillion Dollars plus.

    “Frothing at the mouth lunatic”… Not so clear to me, or any other person connected to this comment exchange with an IQ over 70 my hot headed friend.

    I read everything…You should give it a try..

    Look… Arguing for the sake of arguing is an exercise in futility.. I wish you well..

  • I agree, you are free to exercise your faith as long as you do not break the laws of state, but no laws shall be made “respecting an establishment of religion”. Separation of Church and State! Very different from most all the Islamic Countries that are signatories to the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights:

    Article 19: “There shall be NO crime or punishment EXCEPT as provided for in the Sharia.”

    Article 24: “All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Sharia.”

    Article 25: “The Islamic Sharia is the ONLY source of reference for the explanation or clarification of ANY of the articles of this Declaration.”

  • Tell that to the people who think religious freedom means “I don’t have to follow those laws, I’m a Christian”.

    I don’t see American Muslims demanding their religious belief warrants special privileges under the color of law.

  • Please stop lying in such obvious ways. You have already rehashed at least to outright fictions and made personal claims about them.

    You seem to love to cut and paste from hate sites. You don’t cite actual sources which could corroborate your statements.

    I do not debate you either. You don’t debate liars, you expose them. People who feel the need to make up crap, don’t have a view which needs to be taken seriously.

    No, Obama didn’t increase the deficit by 3 trillion. But we already know the Trump tax giveaway is expected to increase within one year, a deficit if $1.5T with nothing to show for it. Your statement does not negate nor refute mine.

    Electrolux moving to a right to right state so they can get cheaper labor and game tarrifs? Color me unsurprised.

  • I have no problem with people who wish to declare that “There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his Prophet” as long as they are not on a mission to convince or impose that world view upon me, or upon other people in free places who want no part of it. In America, for instance, such is always only a minor minority. It has not and will never gain a majority acceptance here. But wherever it achieves a majority, watch out. Whole countries and regions can be stuck in the mindset for centuries, entirely unable to escape the influence of those holy writings which no one can ever modify or actually disregard once too many people are brainwashed with it.

    Meanwhile, Europe is coming apart and going nuts on this particular issue—-immigration bringing Islam with it. Insisting that Islam is okey-dokey these days is a good way to lose elections to right-wing hardliners, even in a places like Sweden (and recently the USA, of course). I’m a leftie who says “if a doctrine is ridiculously restrictive in what a person must believe and say, don’t try to kill it—–but don’t hug it either”.

  • “Allah’s crap is immutable.”

    do understand that “allah is an associated form of “el” and “elohim”, words used for god in the hebrew scriptures . and then of course accepted as god in the christian scriptures .

    so do you mean blasphemy in all three religions, or are you an atheist and don’t care ?

  • WTF??? Are you stupid as well as blind?
    The Catholic right extremists target abortion doctors, some of whom have been shot and killed.
    They are called “The Army of God” and crazier than you are.

  • you are frothing at the mouth. We are not arguing the Koran with you. We can see religious terrorists who are Christian every day. Look at Congress. Look at Betsy Devos putting guns in schools. A completely loony idea.

  • Not so fast. Texas and other states have anti-Sharia laws and meanwhile their protestant, religious, dominionist, fundamentalist minions are bringing about Christian sharia law. You would love us walking three steps behind you and bringing you sandwiches. Swine

  • Christian tradition being what you define it as, I suppose, Bob.
    Who died and made you the arbiter of “Christian tradition”???

  • 1. Irrelevance: nothing said or done, prescribed or proscribed, at any place, in any time by anyone else subtracts from the intrinsic evil of Islam. Argumentum Tu+Quoque is a logical fallacy; a diversion, not a defense.

    2. Jesus neither commanded nor exemplified execution of Sodomites. He difined Christianity, WBC does not.

  • There you go again, Bob. Giving your own views as normative. No. Trumpism is a cult. Evangelicalism is cultish. Catholicism and all that raping and molesting of innocent children is a cult. (Torture the children — that’s definitely cult behavior).

  • A billion people can make up a cult. They can all be wrong. One person can be right. It is NOT a popularity contest.

  • your texts arguing with his texts.
    The texts are hoary old laws from another time and place.
    They don’t apply now.

  • Terrorism is an intrinsic sacrament of Islam, not Christianity. Muslims engage in terrorism obeying Allah and emulating Moe. Jesus Christ did not sanctify, command or exemplify terrorism. Christians engaged in it contravene Christianity.

    Buddhists in Burma reacted to Islamic pillage, plunder, rape and murder, their reaction is is just and moral, Muslims earned it.

  • You are projecting your own evil onto me. It won’t work. Your fact free emotional rants are transparent. SPLC & Hate Watch are hate sites!

  • “Whole countries and regions can be stuck in the mindset for centuries, entirely unable to escape the influence of those holy writings which no one can ever modify or actually disregard once too many people are brainwashed with it.”

    The fallacy here is thinking this is solely the province of the Islamic faith. Religion is constantly used as a tool for dictatorship. We take more notice of it in the Middle East because of the existence of purely theocratic states of Iran and Saudi Arabia. But it is common to all autocratic nations.

    Remember your average “Alt Right” Neo-Nazi also has no regard for democracy and freedom. They wrap themselves around the cross like a boa constrictor. As do Dominionists. Theocrats who wield far more political power here than any Islamicists.

    Europe is coming apart and going nuts because it finally has to realize nations do not have to be defined by white Christian ethnicities. They treat immigrants like crap and then wonder why immigrants are not integrating into society and hostile. A self-fulfilling situation.

    They want to be civilized developed countries and require immigration to avoid workforce and marketplace demographic implosion. But they are chafing at the idea that they see people of color more often than they used to. Immigration bringing Islam is not the problem. Its immigration without sensible naturalization policies which are.

    There is a marked difference between Muslim communities (and immigrant communities in general) in Europe and here. We are very successful in integrating immigrants. Europeans resist the idea and create problems because of it. (Trump’s anti-immigrant hysteria is entirely fueled by white supremacy and panic.)

  • Re: “Terrorism is an intrinsic sacrament of Islam, not Christianity.” 

    Not so, if there are also Christian terrorists. 

    Re: “Muslims engage in terrorism obeying Allah and emulating Moe.” 

    So you say, but then, I assume you’re part of a religion (Christianity) which has its own terrorists. So your credibility in the matter is suspect, at best. What you’re doing is deflecting. 

    Re: “Jesus Christ did not sanctify, command or exemplify terrorism.” 

    Irrelevant, since some of his followers are terrorizing others in his name. 

    Re: “Buddhists in Burma reacted to Islamic pillage, plunder, rape and murder, their reaction is is just and moral, Muslims earned it.” 

    Ah. So — assuming you’re right (which maybe premature, since you haven’t substantiated your claim) — you’re saying that two wrongs make a right. Is that it? I know I certainly wouldn’t embrace a fallacy like that, but hey, it’s a free country and I guess you can do it, if it’s important enough to you. I guess. 

  • I don’t have arguments with the things you are saying. I just wonder why, as a leftie, most of our community seems to claim we should embrace Islam as though it was just another movie, pop song, or fad. I don’t like our own conservative church people in America foisting Genesis on the rest of the population. Why should I like it better with a subsequent heavy overlay of utter BS by a seventh-century nut? Why can’t I just say to the world, “Dude, Islam is not liberal, not secular, not democratic, not passive, not new age, not flower power, not humanistic. That’s why I don’t consider it cool”?

  • Trolls of your ilk never accept factual on line sources, always rejecting them with Moronic dismissal as “hate sites”.

    The canonical texts of Islam have been translated into English and uploaded to the internet archive. That includes the Quran and six sittah. I challenge you to refute the well documented facts in this pdf file. Prove it to contain fallacy or error.

    Present relevant facts, not factless, irrational denials.

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/212631107/Jihad-Defined-and-Exemplified-pUpdated

  • “I don’t have arguments with the things you are saying. I just wonder why, as a leftie, most of our community seems to claim we should embrace Islam as though it was just another movie, pop song, or fad”

    They don’t.

    They just have little patience with bigots or attacks on free exercise of religion.

    “I don’t like our own conservative church people in America foisting Genesis on the rest of the population. Why should I like it better with a subsequent heavy overlay of utter BS by a seventh-century nut?”

    Why would you think those are the only choices?

    There is also none of the above. Where people respect that others do not believe as they do and go about their business without having to care one way or the other.

    “, “Dude, Islam is not liberal, not secular, not democratic, not passive, not new age, not flower power, not humanistic. That’s why I don’t consider it cool”?”

    Nothing wrong with that. Where the rest of the derps get silly is by saying,

    “We must treat Muslims like a plague, attack our own freedoms and deny them the same consideration we do with every other religious group”.

    Religious freedom means nobody ever has to care what someone else thinks God/Allah/Buddha/FSM/Chthulhu commands. Once we single out one religion for discriminatory behavior, all are in danger of the same. Either we protect our 1st amendment or we suffer the consequences.

  • Understand a little elementary Arabic. Al is the definitive article. Illah is god. Allah = “the god”. Your claim does not make Allah

    identical to YHWH! The Quranic claim of identity is no proof.

    Moe’s purported father was named Abdullah. Abdullah’s father vowed to sacrifice one of his sons if he had so many that survived. Why would he sacrifice the slave of Allah to Hubal? Why did he cast arrows at the feet of Hubal?

    Islam’s canonical texts contain ample evidence to prove that Allah is Satan, not YHWH. I have documented it in two pdf files. Can you prove my evidence false? I challenge you to try!

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/266598134/Allah-is-Not-God

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/246704147/Islam-is-Demonic

  • “You can find violence in almost all Scripture..” is a glaring example of argumentum Tu-Quoque!
    Biblical violence contained in the Old Testament was, with the exception of Canaan, mainly defensive, not offensive. It was limited to particular people, places and times, narrative, not imperative.

    Quranic violence is in three dispensations according to Moe’s ability to engage in it: prohibited, permitted and obligatory. Read Surah Al-Anfal 8.39 and At-taubah 9.29 & 123. With them fresh in your mind, read Sahih Bukhari 1.8.387. Why did Moe say he was commanded to fight until men recited shehada? Why did he say that when they testify they “save his wealth and life from me”? Why did he say that Jihad would be performed continuously? Why does Islamic law say that Jihad must be carried on at all times by some party of the Muslims? Why does it say that Infidels may be attacked without provocation?!

    What did Moe do? What did the four rashidun khalifa do? How did Islam build a huge empire in 700 years? What did Jesus do?!

  • Lacking facts and logic, you resort to insults. You and Spuddie exemplify logical fallacy. Spuddie specializes in smears and calumnies because he knows next to nothing about the subject.

  • Our First Amendment is in more trouble right now than in the last 100 years. The “originalist” argument is already whispered about that the word “religion” AS UNDERSTOOD BY THE FOUNDERS is the only kind of religion with legitimate 1A protection. There is nothing which prevents our Supreme Court from agreeing with that narrowed view at any time. When we put on a majority of guys who say, “I am a constitutionalist, an originalist and a textualist”, well, anything can happen.

    You and I might agree that freedom of religion is only facilitated by freedom from anyone or everyone else’s religion. But the people who elected Trumpism and Trumpian courts don’t agree with that at all.

  • Open a Koran or tafsir and read Surat Anfal, Taubah, Fath, Muhammad & Hashr. Then open the fourth volume of Sahih Bukhari and read it all. Mentally competent readers will perceive a pattern. That pattern is matched by the table of contents in Guillaume’s “The Life Of Muhammad”.

  • “Understand a little elementary Arabic.”

    before mohammed was born, before there was islam, before there was the qur’an, the hebrew and the christian scriptures were translated into arabic . the word for god was “allah” . i bow my knowledge of language before those who actually spoke it and wrote it in the ancient world .

    your question about mohammed’s father is irrelevant . he came before mohammed experienced his revelations .

    “Islam’s canonical texts….”

    contain a lot you don’t like and show little signs of understanding .

  • There are no ‘radical’ nor ‘moderate’ Muslims. Only Believers & Hypocrites. Believers are defined in 8.1-5, 9.111 & 49.15. Hypocrites are defined in 4.88-89 & 9.43 and 9.124-125.

  • What are they afraid of and why? What did Allah mean by “I will cast terror”? What did Moe mean by ” I have been made victorious with terror” & “helped by awe”? What is the meaning of the commands explained at the top of page 326 of “the Life Of Muhammad”?

  • floydlee, you still believe that god commanded the killing of every man, woman and child of the amalekites . you take god, the god of love and the christ of self-giving and turn them into monsters .

    you can’t wiggle out of that just because you believe that every word in the bible means just what it says and therefore it had to happen .

    your ending that god was terrible then but not now is not too reassuring .

  • When he wrote the Virginia Statute, which is the basis of the free exercise clause, Jefferson had disagreement with those who wanted it to apply exclusively to Christianity. He prevailed. In view of what J.Q. Adams knew and said about Islam, Jefferson blundered by not excluding it from the free exercise clause.

    The practice of Islam entails more than raising hiney Allah five times each day. It includes Jihad, which entails genocide and terror. 9.123 commands fighting the nearest disbelievers, which entails killing, plunder and slavery. Those can never be rights.

  • yes, jesus interrupted and stopped a stoning by some violent religious jews . there was a lot of violence in the hebrew scriptures before the majority grew to understand that was not god’s way, but man’s way projected . some never got the message : for example yigal amir .

  • “Radicalized”, liked “radical”, “extreme”, “hijacked”, “perverted” & ” moderate, when used to describe Islam and Muslims, is a lie. Only those who fight in Allah’s cause, killing and being killed, are Believers: 9.111 & 49.15. The historical record of Islamic conquest demonstrates the fact that Believers are not a tiny minority.

  • Refer first to “Reliance Of The Traveller” Book o, Chapter 8 8.0….7. Esp. o8.7-7. Al-ghazali was a Sufi scholar. His Jihad fatwa runs parallel to that of Imam al-Shafi’i1 Sufism is not pacifism!

  • The scope and scale of deranged Christians does not match that of pious Muslim believers. The death toll at Columbine could have been reduced and limited by a few armed teachers trained in combat shooting.

  • Christians do not define or exemplify Christianity, Jesus and the Apostles did. Muslims do not define or exemplify Islam, Moe and the four rashidun Khalifa did. Terrorists are sinners, not Christians!

    As for Burma, look it up at Bare Naked Islam.

  • Sorry about that flashback 😉 I can not control your expression and would not if I could. We need your ilk to serve as foils. Moe was an exemplar for Fascists. Hitler admired Islam and hated Christianity, not warlike ’nuff to satisfy him.

  • It appears that you overlooked the recent Supreme Court ruling in which Justice Kennedy sided with the majority. They upheld President trump’s interpretation of the Immigration and Nationalization act which gives him plenary power to exclude seditious persons and classes.

    Those who have not read pages 9-10 of Maududi’s “Jihad In Islam” and page 303 of Ibn Khaldun’s “Muqaddimah” might not recognize Islam and Muslims as subversive. Obviously you don’t.

  • I want you to read what Khalid Sheikh Muhammad and his excellent companions submitted to the military tribunal, concentrating on the second

    page. Think about where he got those ideas.

    http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/gitmo20090310.pdf

    There is another book I want you to read. It will raise your blood and bladder pressure, but it contains a font of useful knowledge.

    https://archive.org/download/TheBookOfJihadByIbnNuhass/The%20Book%20of%20Jihad%20by%20Ibn%20Nuhass.pdf

    If you can get past the TOC, be sure to read the list of Sunnah Acts.

  • Re: “Christians do not define or exemplify Christianity, Jesus and the Apostles did.” 

    Actually, no one but Christians can “define or exemplify Christianity.” You see, as an outside observer of the religion, I only have Christians to go by. Neither Jesus nor his apostles are still around to show what their religion means. I can, and will, continue to evaluate Christianity based on the words and actions of Christians. 

    And there’s nothing you can say or do to stop me from doing so. 

    Re”“Muslims do not define or exemplify Islam, Moe and the four rashidun Khalifa did.” 

    Actually, no one but Muslims can “define or exemplify Islam.” You see, as an outside observer of the religion, I only have Muslims to go by. Neither Mohammad nor his initial converts are still around to show what their religion means. I can, and will, continue to evaluate Islam based on the words and actions of Muslims. 

    And there’s nothing you can say or do to stop me from doing so. 

    Re: “Terrorists are sinners, not Christians!” 

    But some terrorists are Christians. What part of that did you not comprehend, the first time I said it? 

    Re: “As for Burma, look it up at Bare Naked Islam.” 

    I have no intention of looking anything up for you. Provide your evidence — or admit you have none. Making me do your job for you is the height of laziness and cowardice. 

  • That’s for apostasy, not jihad. Any threat posed to their neighbors from that is minor, and retail. For wholesale slaughter and terrorism you need to look to their rules governing jihad.

  • Buy a puppy and name it ‘Allah’, it still won’t be God. Jehovah had a son, Allah has none, only three daughters whom Moe denied. Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Isa was neither. Isa will return for the final genocide. Moe is the paternal half brother of Jesus. Moe is also his step father. Need documentation? It is in “The Defamation Of Jesus Christ”.

    Jehovah so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. Allah created the Black Race “for the fire and I don’t care”.

  • There is no use in rewriting the Bible or Koran, they are in the archive. Bonni Intel’s many posts documenting Rophynga depredations on Buddhists are readily available in her blog.

  • Reliance o8.1-2 specify the death penalty for apostasy. o7-7 specifies denial of the Qur’an or any part of it as apostasy.

    Qv 2.216 ordains Jihad for Muslims. 2.190…193 commands defensive & retaliatory Jihad. 8.39 commands offensive Jihad against pagans. 9.29 commands offensive Jihad against Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians & Sabeans. 9.123 commands fighting those nearest first.

    QC 8.57 & 60 command casting terror and terrorizing. 9.120 promises the awarding of Brownie Points for any step taken to injure or enrage an enemy. 33.21 commands emulation of Moe who, in Sahih Bukhari 4.52.220, bragged about being made victorious with terror. {Another provision of o8 condemns reviling Moe.}

    8.57& 60 and 9.123 are included, without being mentioned, in Reliance o9.1, which is turgid. A better quote of Imam Al-Shafi’i is found in page 18 of “The Book Of Jihad”. Abdullah Azzam, in “Defense Of The Muslim Lands”, page 14 if memory serves, quotes fiqh from a Hanafi jurist that follows the pattern of Al-Shafi’i & Al-ghazali but substitutes “to terrorize” for attack.

    The Hanafi fiqh: Hedaya, volume 2, pages 154…157 declares that every Muslim must be “an object of terror” to infidels.

    Except for Reliance, those texts can be downloaded from the internet archive.

  • FYII (For Your Insult to the Intelligence): “The 9/11 Commission Report” was …

    (1) In the words of one critic trying to frame all the issues in one take, “What Happened on the Planes on September 11, 2001? The 9/11 Cell Phone Calls. The 9/11 Commission ‘Script’ Was Fabricated”, Global Research, September 4, 2018.

    (2) A part of “The Ploy to Shift 9/11 Blame to Iran”, Consortium News, October 26, 2017.

    (3) “Shying Away from 9/11 Evidence”, Consortium News, May 3, 2016.

    (4) “The 9/11 Commission’s Incredible Tales”, Global Research, September 10, 2013.

    (5) As another critic put it, “The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571 Page Lie”, Global Research, September 8, 2005.

    (6) “A National Disgrace: A Review of the 9/11 Commission Report”, Global Research, March 24, 2005.

    (7) “Cover-up and Propaganda: The 9/11 Commission Finishes Its Dirty Work”, Global Research, June 27, 2004.

  • Q: “What other religion today has a large minority that has as part of its mission to kill infidels, non believers?”

    A: All religions & non-religions, including your very own.

  • To repeat: I will not go looking for anything just because you tell me to. Besides, you obviously missed my point about two wrongs not making a right. 

  • Not worth anyone’s time since Islam is based on the mythical angel Gabriel making Islam a sham religion. See the Great Kibosh previously posted.

  • You mean the one scrubbed clean of the intended Muslim ban and added two unrelated countries. Said Muslim ban only lasted 24 hours before President Pinhead had to change it drastically. That’s what you get for trying on an in house neo nazi rather than staff counsel to draft executive orders.

    Why do you hate a free and democratic nation which protects religious freedom?

  • Interestingly you picked all loners whose family not only were surprised (if still around) but disavowed their actions. You can’t find examples of friends and relatives giving aid to their plans either.

    So who finked on Timothy McVeigh?

  • Poor bigot has problems with the concept of religious freedom. Just like ISIS.

    You are a crappy liar too. Jefferson was cool to distant to all religion. The establishment clause was always meant to apply to all faiths. Your argument makes no sense. You are trying to say the establishment clause was meant to only bar Christianity from endorsement. But that was never a considered limit.

  • And now for some old-time rationality:

    “The Two Universal Sects

    They all err—Moslems, Jews,
    Christians, and Zoroastrians:

    Humanity follows two world-wide sects:
    One, man intelligent without religion,

    The second, religious without intellect. ”

    Al-Ma’arri
    , born AD 973 /, died AD 1058 / .

    Al-Ma’arri was a blind Arab philosopher, poet and writer.[1][2] He was a controversial rationalist of his time, attacking the dogmas of religion and rejecting the claim that Islam possessed any monopoly on truth.”

  • “There is something else. Why do lefties embrace the rights of LGBT people—-while—-being so “open-minded” to Islam which rather officially does not”

    Asked and answered. Civil liberties are not dependent on your personal feelings as to who exercises them. Rights are to be protected. Regardless of who is exercising them.

    BTW prior to 2001 most Muslim communities (aside from Palestinians) were fairly solid Republicans. Like most conservative minority groups they went running for cover when try get targeted by discriminatory rhetoric and actions.

  • Not exactly asked and answered. Islam itself, the philosophy, the teaching, the source material, has no interest whatsoever in protecting “civil liberties” except those it perceives in alignment with the sayings of Muhammad. It literally means submission to God as defined by Islam. That never changes, never can be changed by anyone inside Islam and comprises the reason I am wary of it. The fact you raise, by the way, that American Muslim communities might just as soon be Republicans if possible doesn’t help me feel more comfortable with their ministry.

  • how should i judge anyone, who is not true to ELOHEEM? is not that, the only true standard of what is good and bad is their distance?

    and as a judge, i must hear from two witnesses? two witnesses who observed the wrong, and explained the wrong to that person. and that person failed to reconsider their words or actions. for if i am a judge under the law, i cannot be a witness and if i am a witness i cannot be the judge under the law to judge the living and the dead.

    but typically i end up being the witness, describing the wrong to any person. whether it be The Law from ELOHEEM, US, or State laws. for there are times, US and State laws are in violation of Noachide Laws, or the 613 Laws given to The Multitude of all known nations. but i am, but the one true witness which is insufficient for a conviction. thus i, can only observe and inform for the good all the inhabitant on earth pagan secular or pagan sectarian who have distanced themselves from ELOHEEM.

    for all the physical pestilence, plague, and famine on earth is a results of mental distance from ELOHEEM. so your own personal distance from ELOHEEM, makes you guilty for all commanded pestilence, plague, and famine also.

  • NO religion itself is interested in civil liberties. The government of any given scripture is a dictatorship. A kingdom, empire, oligarchy, but never a parliament.

    The two things are at odds for all faiths except for scattered minor sects within them. That is why secular government is necessary. One can’t protect all religions when any given faith is entangled with government.

    Your opinions of a given faith doesn’t mean much compared to how it is considered and practiced by its believers

    Religions people don’t play nice with each other because of aspects of their faith or scripture. So all of that “their scripture commands atrocity” stuff is utter garbage. They ALL do that. Nothing about the religions stop that.

    They do because they are forced by a civil secular society to keep their theocratic impulses in check. Even Christians never got along with different sects of the same faith until forced to by the separation of church and state in government.

  • I was raised in church and spent a lot of time in several different ones from childhood to forties—-but not in the last 25 years. All I have left of it is a growing conviction that there is nothing I can or should do “for God” except to try to be kind and fair to all other people. I wish others in the various religions thought likewise. Some do. Many don’t. When they don’t, I now want to put distance between them and me.

  • we american christians are just so much better because we use chemical methods to kill the condemned .

    you, Dajjal, keep seeing the worse of those you hate and ignore or explain away what we do .

    you are not interested in solving the problem of terrorism and the injustice in the world . you are interested in trashing a religion, one that you know a lot of non-facts about but have no knowledge of .

    strange that you rarely suggest what is positive in your belief . only the bad in others .

  • I am in a multifaith marriage and have a multifaith extended family.

    I have seen some petty and hateful crap said in polite company over the idea that I or a close relative married someone or raise children outside a given faith

    But in all fairness my in laws never considered demanded I must convert to my wife’s Buddhism and my most devout religious relatives were a lot less hostile to my wife than expected. Some people want to use religion as a pretext to be dbags, some do not.

  • Take a couple of aspirin, and a little nap, and everything will be just fine in your world..

    Couldn’t resist reading what you have written to others as well..

    A little advice? Read more, and speak less..

  • I have to laugh at Green, or laugh at how Khan presented his work. They argue that Muslims should not be asked, over and over again, to condemn Islamic terrorism. Yet, Green/Khan fail to see the fact that Muslims are committing acts of terrorism over and over again! Green/Khan imply that Islam does not cause terrorism, yet they fail to make the case. They don’t ref. the Quran, hadith, or sira, they don’t discuss real Islamic scholarship on the topic. Yes, according the Islam’s teachings, Islam does cause terrorism. Yes, Muhammad was very violent, cruel, and brutal. Yes, the Muslims that followed in his footsteps did what he taught, just like ISIS does today.

  • How about America killing all those Nazi and Japanese soldiers, sailors, and airmen? You gonna say that was wrong too? Say it out loud!

  • Every Bible reader, even those of the Atheist persuasion, knows that God commanded the Israelites to wipe out Amalek. That’s real history. Ain’t no use of you OR me backing off of it.

    God gave the Amalekites 400 years to stop acting a bunch of Foolios, always spitting in God’s face. He gave ’em good land, good food, good blessings, non-stop. But Amalek thought they could spit in God’s face forever; they thought God was a big fat Wimp. End Result: Foolios Deleted. Ain’t God’s fault at all. Humans better keep their nasty saliva to themselves.

  • Vlad Basarab, Canuck curmudgeon; has read more about Islam than I have and has gook grasp of history. His mother is descended from Vlad The Impaler.

  • 270*10^6 innocent victims predict the future, making it worth my time. The fallacy of Islam is not at issue; Believers who seek to actualize Allah’s promise and avoid his threat are the problem.

  • 1st off, apologize for using the possessive pronoun “his” in reference to “Aysha Khan … the social media manager for RNS. A Denver-based journalist, she reports on American Muslims. She also produces the daily RNS Morning Report newsletter. Her own newsletter, Creeping Sharia, focuses on Muslims in the U.S.”

    2nd, if “the Muslims that followed in [Muhammad’s] footsteps did what he taught, just like ISIS does today” – then explain these:

    (1) Daniel Lazare, “Did Obama Arm Islamic State Killers? A new study shows that U.S. government weapons ended up in the hands of Islamic State jihadists, but no one in Washington seems interested in how they got there or what President Obama knew”, Consortium News, December 21, 2017.

    (2) Alastair Crooke, “How the US Armed-up Syrian Jihadists: The West blames Russia for the bloody mess in Syria, but U.S. Special Forces saw close up how the chaotic U.S. policy of aiding Syrian jihadists enabled Al Qaeda and ISIS to rip Syria apart”, Consortium News, September 29, 2016.

    (3) Makia Freeman, “ISIS Is a US-Israeli Creation: Top Ten ‘Indications'”, The Freedom Articles, April 5, 2016.

    (4) Garikai Chengu, “America Created Al-Qaeda and the ISIS Terror Group”, Global Research, September 19, 2014.

  • Does it come as a surprise to you that the USA is a secular republic, not a theocracy? In our system, sodomy and infidelity are not capital offenses.

    17 years ago, nearly 3000 people were killed and 6000 injured in a Muslim terror attack. The attackers expressed a commitment to do more. Have you been sleeping while other Muslims shot, stabbed and blew up Americans in the ensuing years?

    What?! No interest? No concern? No desire to see a permanent end to attacks? I can not share that attitude. I will not wait for them to mate a nuke with a delivery system. I will spread knowledge of the doctrines of Islam as broadly as I can and I will continue to urge the government to take decisive action against the enemy both ideologically and kinetically.

  • Adding insane assertions to your projection does not have any merit. The travel ban, as useless as it is, was upheld as Constitutional. I am not to blame for Chump[‘s lack of courage to do it right. McMaster & Tillersaon likely had some input in that.

    Religious freedom is for individuals who practice legitimate religions, not members of continuing criminal enterprise disguised as religion. What legitimate religion dedicates an entire chapter of it’s scripture to “The Spoils Of War” and assigns them to the Profit? If anyone has doubt about that, read Surah Al-Anfal and “The Book Of Khumus” in the fourth volume of Sahih Bukhari. Khumus alludes to 8.41 which assigns the top 20% of the spoils to Moe.

  • The families always aver the perp. was a nice boy who wouldn’t kill a fly. They lie. Mcveigh was caught driving with improper registration. Given who was in the W.H. at the time, I would not be surprised if the FBI was involved in the affair. Clinton tried to blame it on Rush Limbaugh.

  • CAIR interferes with contracts, including employment and meeting room reservations. Sooner or later someone will sue them for tortuous interference. CAIR also demands the resignation of legislators who criticize Islam. Free speech anyone? It’s only for Leftwingers & Muslims.

    Freedom of religion does not include freedom to attack, plunder, rape and enslave. The practice of Islam entails those works. In Surah At-taubah, turn to 9.5, 29, 38-39 111 & 123. 9.5, 29 & 123 are clear imperatives. 9.38-39 threaten eternity in the fire (78.21) for not doing them. If Muslims have such rights, then we have none; but see Sahih Bukhari 1.8.387 which teaches that our blood & treasure ain’t sacred to Muslims and we have no rights until we become Muslims.

  • Of course you do! Surah Al-Imran 3.85 says that only Islam will be accepted. 3.110 says that Muslims are the best of peoples for the people, bukhari 6.60.80 adds “as you bring them to Islam with chains on their necks”. Surah A;-Anfal 8.39 commands fighting pagans until only Allah is worshiped in the whole of the world. Islam does not allow freedom of religion!

    Jefferson’s critics wanted to exclude Judaism, I do not. Excluding Islam is logical and legitimate because it is a continuing

    criminal enterprise, not a religion; it has a religion: Jihad! look it up: Sunan Abu Dawud Book 23, Number 3455:

    Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar:

    I heard the Apostle of Allah, (peace_be_upon_him) say: When you enter into
    the inah transaction, hold the tails of oxen, are pleased with agriculture, and
    give up conducting jihad (struggle in the way of Allah). Allah will make
    disgrace prevail over you, and will not withdraw it until you return to your
    original religion.

  • Re: “I already knew that you are fact averse.” 

    … says the person who refuses to provide any. Hmmm. 

    Re: “I also know that there is no moral equivalence between attack and counter attack.” 

    I have no idea what you’re talking about. You haven’t substantiated anything. 

  • You never read the Koran, who are you kidding? You are giving citations you read online from neo crusader sites. Like every other islamaphobe “expert”. Just like neo nazis citing the Talmud. Sane stupid methods.

  • None of which are substantiated, illegal or examples of what I was talking about.

    My condo complex has a substantial Muslim population. In the mornings we are woken up to the blasts of muzzein over loudspeakers. The locals gave demanded the supermarket inside ban pork products and force non Muslims to pay an infidel surcharge on goods sold. The liquor store was destroyed by an angry mob. Over in neighboring Journal Square there are daily beheadings. My next door neighbor invited me over for coffee, cakes and forced conversion.

    Oh wait, none of that happened. I was bring sarcastic. That is just what you think goes on in American Muslim communities.

    My guess is the sight of Wal Mart checkout clerks in hijabs would send you into apoplexy and make you consider North Bergen NJ a “No Go Zone”

  • Not true at all. As is the cases described in my link from warisboring.com. The Chelsea bomber was turned in by his own father. You are trying to backtrack from an argument you can’t support and are making excuses.

  • You have a selective dishonest memory. The first travel ban had an explicit anti Muslim provision. It was drafted by house nazi Steve Bannon. It lasted 24 house and was an illegal and unworkable fustercluck. Trump revised it heavily each time it got pasted by the courts.

    If you support an overt Muslim ban, you oppose the SCOTUS ruling.

    You have a lot in common with neo nazis I see.

  • and child .

    no, the children had nothing to do with it .

    will you stop and think about it, and stop turning our god into a monster .

  • your attempt to turn the subject on its head only suggests that you are upside down .

    above i suggested that you did not want to solve the problem of terrorism, but only wanted to bash a religion . now again you prove my point .

    my concern is that you only are making things worse . millions of muslims want to work with christians to make a peaceful world, a better world .

    but you only confuse them with the terrorists . do these terrorists call themselves muslim . yes, just as many terrorists in the past have called themselves christian .

    you, in attacking a religion–one that you spread so much misinformation about–are making the situation much worse .

  • I am all for capital punishment for unforgivable crimes against animal, man, and nature, whether it is foreign or domestic. When we entered the War in Europe, tens of millions of people had already died, and when we entered the war in the Japanese theatre, they had already murdered 5 millions civilians across Asia.

    I was specifically talking about Christian Europe having a very long history of inhumanity to man, both at foreign and domestic.

  • No, I am not Asian and know next to zero about Asian history. Unk has a far superior grasp of history~ I do not memorize dates!! For an interesting mix of history and nut case stuff, try the 38 volumes of Tabari. Unk sent me a spare copy. I only read volume 8, which tells the tale of the torture death of Kinanna and rape of his widow.

  • You exemplify the Liberal paucity of facts and thought. When Muslims attack Israel and Israel retaliates, Liberals kvetch about “disproportionality” and Muslims call it “terrorism”. As if nuking Hiroshima & Nagasaki was a “war crime”. The initial attack was the crime!!

  • You have no clue! I first read Shakir’s translation, then the Hilali/Khan translation and Khan’s Sahih Bukhari. I looked up the most egregious verses in Tafsir al-Jalalayn and Tafsir Ibn Kathir. I only know which verses to cite because I ha I read those translations. .

    In the liberal lexicon, anything that exposes the rotten core of Islam is “hate” including my blog. I have no doubt that Robert Spencer has read the Koran and Bukhari. I only learned of Mishkat ul-Masabih and Hedaya from reading his posts.

    I learned about Moe’s extortion letters in a Pal Talk chat room when a Muslim linked to a now defunct Islamic site. I later found an extensive collection in “The Sealed Nectar”, the closest thing to an official biography of Moe. Then I found a larger collection in Ibn S’ad. The letter to the rulers of Ayla says it all; explaining Islam in a nut shell.

  • I will not buy any lotto tickedts on your recommendation ! CAIR uses a PR service, look it up and subscribe or set up a Google

    Alert for CAIR. Google the surah/atat #s I cited, I have blogged them; you will find full quotes and links in my blog posts.
    Read this: https://english.religion.info/2002/02/01/document-defence-of-the-muslim-lands/ open it to “Jihad Against the Kuffar is of Two Types.”.

    And this: http://www.allahsword.com/ebooks/Fiqh/A%20Summary%20of%20Islamic%20Jurisprudence%201.pdf#page=488
    If that is the wrong page, turn to the Jihad chapter.

    Azzam was OBL’s mentor. Fawzin is a professor of Islamic law. The books are hagiographic, not “hate sites”.

  • Nazi” National People’s Socialist Party. I am a Capitalist and Goldwater supporter, not a Socialist!

    Trump said he wanted a complete ban on entry by Muslims until he figured out what was going on. Jihad is going on, he did not know that ‘cuz not having read Islam’s canonical texts, he is ignorant of Islam.

    Trump does not know that Muslims are commanded to “Fight them until”, “fight those who…until” and “fight the disbelievers nearest you”. He does not know that they are commanded to “strike terror” and “terrify” “enemies”. He does not know that Moe, who is to be emulated as the Muslim role model, was “made victorious with terror” and “made wealthy through conquests because, like you, he has not read Sahih Bukhari.

    Any Muslim, from any country, can get Iman, become a Believer and engage in an attack at any time without warning. Bayeh and a membership card are not required. Joining or forming a terror cell is not required.

  • Islam is not a religion! Islam is a continuing criminal enterprise created to provide income for Moe, his family and his successors. That fact is fully documented here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/227418623/Islam-s-Mercenary-Mission-Updated

    I challenge you to refute it point by point. Prove that the books do not say what they say and mean what they mean!

    The problem is not terrorism, it is Jihad, which is ordained for Muslims and which they are commanded to engage in, continually, until the end of the world. And it is war against non-Muslims, not internal struggle. Why are the elderly, blind and crippled exempt from it?!

    The fatal fact is documented here:

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/212631107/Jihad-Defined-and-Exemplified-pUpdated

    I challenge you to prove it false, point by point. Show evidence that the books do not say that and do not mean that!!!

    Those pdf files display facts about Islam, from it’s own canon of scripture, exegesis, jurisprudence and biography. Those are hagiographic texts written by Muslims, not enemies of Islam.

    Imagined and real provocations are used to rouse the rabble but the real driver of Jihad and the terrorism it entails is Islamic doctrine.

  • Re: “You exemplify the Liberal paucity of facts and thought.” 

    … except for the little fact that I’m not a “Liberal.” To be clear, disagreeing with you on something is not the definition of “liberal.” 

    Re: “When Muslims attack Israel and Israel retaliates, Liberals kvetch about ‘disproportionality’ and Muslims call it ‘terrorism’.” 

    And Israeli Jews call what the Muslims do “terror.” Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, but I don’t see how this “tit-for-tat” crap will ever end. Each side just grants itself license to keep warring against the other. How, exactly, would you call that productive? 

    Re: “The initial attack was the crime!!” 

    Retributive counter-attacks can also be crimes — especially when they’re carried out against people who weren’t involved in the original attack. Revenge can be justice, but very often, it’s not. 

  • You are giving me the same spiel neo nazis give using the same methods and the same nonsense sources. Pretending expertise in a religion that is not your own by quoting hate site citations and arguments. Trumps support is largely christian white supremacists nowadays. He has no regard for democratic institutions and largely gets spanked for it by the courts and public opinion.

    Sorry bigot, but you can’t make an argument that any given religion is evil and it’s adherents must be treated inhumanely and expect to be taken seriously. Doesn’t matter what religion we are talking about.

    You are an ISIS stooge, you support attacks on our democratic system and rule of law I service of your views. Just what terrorists want. They loved the travel ban because it kept people under their thumb and was a propaganda bonanza.

    You don’t know squat about Muslims or any faith other than yor own. But you are doing Islamicist terrorists a great favor with your garbage. They love the bonus for recruiting when fools like you claim that democracies are at war with Islam. it keeps us for using the best tool against them.

    At this point I am just going to refer to you as an ISIS stooge. It is painfully appropriate.

  • An ISIS stooge like you loves to pretend democracies are at war with Islam. You didn’t read my prior link. You are doing quite a bit to further the interests of Islamicist terrorists. The best part for them is you are stupid enough to do it for free. how pathetic.

  • Does ISIS mail you a check or wire their money to you? You seem to do a lot to further their interests in attacking the democratic way of life and rule of law.

  • Your shtick is pretty old and well worn. Every Islam hating bigot uses the same tactics, quotes the same hate sites, and makes the same arguments.

    All in favor of attacking our free democratic way of life and rule of law. Making you nothing more than a stooge for terrorists. They want people like you around. Those who are stupid enough to attack our best weapons against them. Democracy, freedom of religion, developed immigration systems and economic opportunities.

    You are not the first phony expert on Islam, nor will be the last. You use the same garbage tactics and rhetoric as neo nazis and their anti Semitic screeds. You are cut from the same cloth. You have the same interests. For all intend and purposes you are a nazi.

    You are too stupid for words. The perfect kind of stooge ISIS is looking for.

  • Oh, but I have thought about it. Everybody should think about it. Can’t duck it.

    Especially when you got people today who reject God just like the Amalekites did. Such folks are desperate to justify THEIR wrong choice. So they put the Amalekite Children on YOU, hoping to make YOU uncomfortable, unable to reply with Scriptural confidence. But you don’t have to let them do all that. The Bible already explains what is going on, and why. Just share this with them:

    http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/WhyDidGodHaveChildrenKilled.html

  • You continue to project, Spuddie. All of Islam is permanent war against everything not Islamic until the entire world is conquered. At quranx, enter these terms in the full search tab: “ordered to fight”, “commanded to fight”, “performed continuously” and “fight”. Moe interpreted 8.39, 9.29 & 9.123 as commandments from Allah to wage war. Those are fight until loops with compound terminal conditions. 8.39 terminates with global cessation of resistance and worship of other than Allah. 9.29 terminates with subjection, submission & extortion.

    The searches suggested above will return links to Qur’an verses, multiple tafsirs and hadith. Concentrate on Tafsir Ibvn Kathir, Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and Sunan Abu Dawud.

    Jihad is conditioned on Allah’s imperatives cited above, Moe’s example and their terminal conditions, not anything Harbis do or say about Islam. The ostensible objectives of Jihad are: to test believers & hypocrites, establish Islam, expand it’s domain and impose Islamic law on the entire globe. The actual objective of Jihad is accrual of spoils. This fact is made manifest by the contents of Hedaya, volume 2, pages 144, 145 & 214. Hedaya is the fiqh of the Hanafi madhhab, the shari’ah that governed the Ottoman Empire. The book explains the major differences from the Shafi’ite madhhab found in Reliance.

  • How much is George Soros paying you, Spuddie? I have no connection to nor contact with any Islamic organization. I expose the corrupt core of Islam, it’s damnable doctrines & execrable practices. Preservation of liberty & prosperity is dependent on elimination of Islam. Gladstone told the English Parliament that there would never be peace while the Koran has influence. He was correct.

    Islam is a perpetual war machine, designed to perpetuate war for the personal emolument of it’s founder and his successors through collection of ransom, extortion & spoils. Those who surrender to it are recruited to attack others. They are promised spoils in this world and eternal orgy in the next. They are threatened with eternal torment in Allah’s fire pit if they do not do Jihad. Belief in that threat and promise keeps the war machine rolling. It’s continued operation can not be tolerated in the age of weapons of mass destruction.

  • To understand terror, go first to quranx and enter “hoary” in the full search tab. Read the hadith several times. It describes what Moe called “the greatest terror”, when Allah comes to damn the sinners. Visit Patrick Poole’s blog and download “The Quranic Concept of War”. Open it to page 58 and read through page 60. Read page 59 again, concentrating on the paragraph that describes terr as both ends and means.

    “Jihad is ordained for you” 2.216. All Muslims. When Muslims attack infidels, the fard is al-kifaya, a communal obligation, When a sufficient number have joined the fray, the rest are excused. When Dar al-Islam is over run by infidels, the obligation is individual: fard ayn, binding on the entire ummah, all over the globe, regardless of gender, age or social condition. Reconquest of Spain, Greece, Romania and Israel converted the obligation to fard ayn. There are no innocent, noncombatant Muslims!!!

    When Hamas launches missiles, Israel would be justified in obliterating Gaza entirely. The war is the crime; Islam started it. Muslims are the war criminals. Without attacks, there would be neither retaliation nor counter attacks.

  • I am not the one attacking democracy and freedom while declaring terrorists represent a religion of 1.6 billion people. ISIS does and so do you. What a coincidence! Or is it?

    At no point do I take your garbage seriously. It’s telling you make the same arguments and use same tactics as neo nazis do online.

  • 1. Not a denial of what I said. Practically an admission at this point. You are a stooge for ISIS and could not deny it.

    2. I wish!

    I would love to turn in my amateur status and get paid to deal with ignorant bigoted derps like you. But alas the only places I hear about the Soros paid positions are from RWNJs. Evidently they have locked up all the lucrative paid online posting jobs. As you have amply demonstrated.

    It’s funny how bigots always make George Soros references when they want to say anti Semitic garbage but want to appear clever. Soros is the “International Bankers” of the 21st century.

  • Why do you persist in projecting and meritricious calumny, Spuddie? Is it because you have no relevant facts?

    Democracy entails man made laws arrived at by majority vote. Islam condemns man made law and requires imposition of “allaj’s law”: shari’ah.

    Moe defined Islam in his Koran and exemplified it as recorded in the oral traditions of the salaf: hadith and sira. In the Koran he commanded Muslims to “strike terror” & “terrify” “enemies”. He said that Allah would and did “cast terror” . He said that he was “made victorious with terror” and ‘helped by awe” in a one month’s radius.

    Islam’s mission is mercenary and it’s method is martial. It’s tactic is terrorism. Muslims are terrorists. They worship a terrorist: Allah and they follow a terrorist: Moe. They believe that Allah will reward them for acts of terror and burn them for shirking. That belief is based on 8.12, 57 & 60 and 9.120, 38 & 39.

    That’s the truth, Spuddie, relevant, verifiable fact, not spurious or fabricated, from Islam’s hate filled canonical books. Anyone reading this can look up those Koran verses and open the fourth volume of Bukhari to page 140. Then they can see who is telling the truth and who apologies for the ultimate evil.

  • Still p[projecting and calumniating, Spuddie. I am not surprised; the lawyers have an old saying: “If you have the facts,

    pound the facts, if you have the law, pound the law; if you have neither, pound the table.”. .

    Here is fact for you, Spuddie: a direct quote from the oldest extant b iography of the Profit, Guillaume’s translation of Hisham’s Rescension of Ishaq’s Sira. They say that Hisham removed all the stuff that would put Islam in a bad light.

    “Then God mentions the unbelievers and what they will meet when they
    die, and describes them, and tells His prophet about them until He says:
    ‘If you come upon them in war, deal with them so forcibly as to terrify
    those who follow them, haply they may take warning/ i.e. make a severe
    example of them to those that come after, that haply they may understand.
    ‘And prepare what strength you can against them, and cavalry by which.
    you may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy’ as far as His
    words, ‘And whatever you spend in the way of God will be repaid to you:
    you will not be wronged,’ i.e. you will not lose your reward with God in
    the next life and a rapid recompense in this world. ” (Page 326)

    This is a link to that page:
    https://archive.org/stream/TheLifeOfMohammedGuillaume/The_Life_Of_Mohammed_Guillaume#page/n188/mode/1up

    This is a link to the first of the two verses cited: 8.57:

    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/8/57/default.htm

    This is a link to the second verse cited: 8.60:

    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/8/60/default.htm

    This is a link to the page in Islamic law that says every Muslim must be an object of terror:

    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.221893/2015.221893.The-Hedaya#page/n163/mode/2up
    Hedaya 2.154 is not easy reading, but try it anyway, you might learn something.

  • Don old friend, you know me well enough by now to understand that I know that there is no hope of changing the ideas of the mindless. My target audience is behind the interlocutor: those who may pass through later and read my comments with a functioning, open mind that is receptive to truth backed up with facts. 😉

  • Re: “To understand terror, go first to …” 

    I’m not looking anything up for you. When you have something to say worth hearing, let me know. 

  • Sorry, Spuddie, smear, calumny & guilt by association do not refute facts!

    I quote Koran, sahih ahadith and Islamic law. Try to refute them, Spuddie. I am using my own knowledge, obtained from Islamic texts, not “hate sites”.

    I know you like videos, Spuddie, here is one for you! Pierre Rehov interviewed several terrorists who were captured Pay attention to their voices and facial expressions. Those splodydopes are sincere; they really believe.

    https://vimeo.com/user44059656

    I can and do truthfully declare that Islam is evil and makes it’s acolytes evil. Sorry, Bigot, I have proof. Not from a hate site, but from the internet archive, From a major sira uploaded from the site of a Dutch Muslim. Go ahead, Spuddie, look up Ibn S’ad at Wikipedia. It describes the author and the book.

    Ibn Sa’d included many of Moe’s extortion letters in his book. One of them is clear and unambiguous. It leaves no doubt about his intentions and his mercenary motivation. I will give you a direct link and a quote.

    https://archive.org/stream/TabaqatIbnSaadVol12English/IbnSaad#page/n309/mode/2up

    “They said: The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, wrote to
    Yuhannah Ibn Rubbàh and (other) chiefs of the people of Aylah: You are
    safe. I praise Allah before you; there is no God but He. I will not fight
    against you unless I write to you (in advance). So, join the fold of Islam or
    [P. 29] pay the jizyah. Obey Allah and His Apostle and the messengers of
    His Apostle, honour them and dress them in nice clothes, other than the
    uniform of the ghazis. Provide Zayd with good clothes. If my messengers
    will be pleased with you, I shall also be pleased with you. The jizyah is a
    known thing. If you like that, peace might prevail over the land and sea;
    you should obey Allah and His Apostle. You will not be required to pay
    dues you have been paying to the Arabs and the ‘Ajamis, and you will
    pay the dues to Allah and His Apostle. If you send them (my messengers)
    back and do not please them, I shall not accept anything from you, and
    shall wage war against you and make your young ones captive and shall
    stay your elders. Verily, I am the Apostle of Allah to communicate the
    truth. ”

    Tell us, Spuddie, did the man who dictated that missive found a religion of peace or a continuing criminal enterprise? What holy Prophet of God exhibited such arrogance and barbarism? What God would select that man as his final messenger? What sort of disciples would he attract?

    It’s all about the money, Spuddie. The hadith on this page in Bukhari tells us how Moe made his living. Look in the front of the book Spuddie, It comes from KSA, not a “hate site” . Prove me wrong!!!

    .https://archive.org/stream/SahihAlBukhariVol.317732737EnglishArabic/Sahih%20al-Bukhari%20Vol.%204%20-%202738-3648%20English%20Arabic#page/n108/mode/2up

    The book of Khumus in that same volume relates a great deal of detail. Read it and weep.

    https://archive.org/stream/SahihAlBukhariVol.317732737EnglishArabic/Sahih%20al-Bukhari%20Vol.%204%20-%202738-3648%20English%20Arabic#page/n200/mode/2up

    #3158 on page 242 makes matters clear. Read it twice to make sure you comprehend it. Moe feared his successors would get too much loot and squabble over it, destroying his system.

    https://archive.org/stream/SahihAlBukhariVol.317732737EnglishArabic/Sahih%20al-Bukhari%20Vol.%204%20-%202738-3648%20English%20Arabic#page/n242/mode/2up

    Facts, Spuddie, facts from hagiographic rtexts, not “hate sites” You can’t handle them!

  • Your face should grace the dictionary page where projection is defined. You attribute your own undesirable traits to me. You simply have no relevant, verifiable facts to support Islam.

  • But, it is part of their creed-Muslims are guilty, or do you think that the nine who hijacked the planes and killed Americans were Christian? Islam is a scourge on the world and to continue to believe that it is a “religion” is ignorance. It is a quasi-governmental culture that will not rest until all infidels are either converted or die. What part of world history do you not understand? Muslims make it perfectly clear that they want to destroy the West; they don’t want our jobs and money; they want our culture, our conversion and if that is not possible;banishment or death.

  • You are incredibly wrong and naive. There is simply no comparison between Christianity which seeks to help others; and Islam which seeks to destroy the other. Wake up, fool, don’t be one of the people who thinks all religions are “equal”. This is evil incarnate-there is nothing Godly or uplifting about Islam-it has been a scourge on the earth since it’s inception and continues it destructive ways.

  • LOL! Calling me “fool” reveals an enormous amount about your understanding of Christianity! As does your silly, totally uninformed comments about islam.

    Where do you see me saying all religions are “equal”?

    I think you would do well to take a deep breath and re-read my post. I am no fan of Islam–or of any group that engages in violence. e.g. certain anti-abortion “Christians”. But I do believe that a good, *useful* understanding of any religion, idea, etc., begins with knowledge of the *facts* about that religion or idea.

    Please keep posting, so we can learn more about your weird ideas about the world we live in.

  • You oppose freedom of religion, seeking to have Muslims separated from our democratic society and treated as a hostile population. You claim ISIS represents the rightful beliefs of 1.6 Billion Muslims. Just what ISIS believes and works towards. What a coincidence!

    You are by definition supporting the aims and goals of ISIS. You are their stooge. How pathetic.

  • What facts? You are still doing the same shtick. A nonsense video and trying to make wild leaps of Selective looks at a religion’s scripture only means you know how to proof text. Just what Neo-Nazis do when discussing Jews and Muslims. How cliched.

    You have never read the Koran, you know nothing about Muslims beyond what hate sites direct you towards. At no point do I take you seriously nor consider you providing facts about anything here.

    You are clearly an ISIS stooge, furthering their propaganda that they represent all of Islam. A shtick which is quite funny to people who aren’t ignorant ridiculous bigots. Considering the people who are driving them to ground are Muslim as well.

    https://warisboring.com/the-islamic-states-assault-on-the-gray-zone/
    The “Gray Zone” is the group’s name for any place where there is pluralism and multiculturalism. For Daesh’s apocalyptic ideology, a pluralistic and inclusive society is repulsive and must be destroyed. To further that goal, the group seeks to widen the differences which exist, by definition, in a pluralistic community.

    In other words, it’s a wedge strategy. And once the Islamic State can drive enough of a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims, it can more easily radicalize and recruit.

    Daesh is at war with the West, but it’s also at war with other Muslims who reject its theology — which is most of them. This year Dabiq published a “hit list” of prominent western Muslims for its followers to kill. The list included Minnesota Rep. Keith Ellison, scholars and several counter-terrorism experts.

    The group continues to kill more Muslims, as a group, than anyone else — and local Muslim fighters on the ground are doing the majority of the fighting against the Daesh’s strongholds. And the group’s attacks on multicultural spaces are not just limited to the West, as evidenced by

  • See prior response.

    You attack 1st amendment freedoms. You seek to isolate Muslim communities from democratic society and attack them. You claim ISIS represents 1.6 Billion Muslims and their beliefs. Just what ISIS does and claims. What a coincidence!

    You are their stooge! Own it Sparky.

  • You rail against the fact our free democratic government is hardwired against discrimination based on the religious beliefs of people. You seek to isolate Muslims from democratic society. You seek to claim democratic society is hostile to Muslims.

    Just what ISIS wants! You are their stooge in the worst way!

    (BTW I am never going to take your claim of knowing about Islam and Muslims seriously).

  • True facts, Spuddie, unlike your maundering projections. You really should write an autobiography and get it out of your

    system.

    Ibn Kathir wrote a good explanation of Al-Imran 3.7, check it out! Allah’s commands, contained in “clear verses”, are to be “believed in and implemented”. Anyone with web access and a computer can download a Qur’an from the archive or look up verses at corpus quran, Islam Awakened, quranx and many other Islamic sites. They can download any or all of the six sita or look them up at sunnah or quranx. Those facts are easily verifiable.

    The “apocalyptic ideology” is Islam! See Bukhari vol. 9, beginning on page 123 and Muslim, vol. 7, pg. 271 The Twelver Shi’ites really believe that crap!! I will make it easy for you:

    https://archive.org/stream/SahihAlBukhariVol.317732737EnglishArabic/Sahih%20al-Bukhari%20Vol.%209%20-%206861-7563%20English%20Arabic#page/n123/mode/2up

    https://archive.org/stream/SahihMuslimEngVolume7/119790545-Sahih-Muslim-Vol-7#page/n271

    Read’em and weep, Spuddie; the ideology is Islam, as Moe preached and practiced it, it is not an artifact of al-Ikhwan or any of itr’s offshoots, it is common to all Muslims!

    Fact is, Muslims kill. They are aggressive, violent Barbarians; Islam makes them that way. Who they kill is immaterial to the debate. How many they kill is immaterial.

    Back to cases, Spudie. I exhibited to you the relevant portion of a letter, dictated by Moe to a scribe and dispatched to the Christian rulers of a city in what is now Jordan. In it Moe tells them that he is “the Apostle of Allah”, meaning that Allah sanctions and approves what he is doing. He tells them of his intent to make a genocidal attack on them and enslave their children if the do not obey his command to convert or submit and pay extortion. You ignore it because you can not contest the fatal facts!!!

  • They do not want our culture, they want to impose Arabian culture on the entire world, by stealth if possible, by force if necessary. Hijrah & Jihad.

  • Its Islam, Spuddie! Not ISIS, not HAMAS, Al-Qaeda or any other offshoot of Ikhwan al-Muslimimeen. Look up the Muslim

    Brotherhood motto, it is on their web site and in the Charter Of HAMAS. What is their goal? What is their way? What is their highest aspiration? Islam is the LCD of all Muslim terrorists!

    Islam contravenes the entirety of the first amendment. It forbids choice of religion or no religion. It forbids construction and maintenance of churches. It does not allow free speech. It does not allow freedom of assembly.

    The practice of Islam entails more than Shahada, Sawm, Salat Zakat & Hajj; there is a sixth pillar they do not ‘d rather we not know about. Open Sahih Bukhari, vol. 4 to page 44 and read it all, including the footnote!

    https://archive.org/stream/SahihAlBukhariVol.317732737EnglishArabic/Sahih%20al-Bukhari%20Vol.%204%20-%202738-3648%20English%20Arabic#page/n44/mode/2up

    “‘Shall I not inform you about the head of the entire matter, and its pillar, and its
    hump.’ I said: ‘Of course 0 Messenger of Allah!’ He said: ‘The
    head of the matter is Islam, its pillar is the Salãt, and its hump is .Jihãd.'”

    Jihad is the head, pillar & hump of Islam!!! Tirmidhi #2616 vol. 5, pg. 27

    https://archive.org/stream/JamiAtTirmidhiVol.632913956EnglishArabic/Jami%20at-Tirmidhi%20Vol.%205%20-%202606-3290%20English%20Arabic#page/n27/mode/2up

    If Muslims have rights to perform Jihad, to attack and kill pagans, Jews & Christians and fight the nearest disbelievers as Allah commands them to do, how can we have any rights? Muslims believe Allah will damn them if they don’t! Refer to QV 9.29, 38-39, 9.111, 9.120, 9.123, 61.9-12 & 78.21 & following context. Either they have a right to kill us or they have no right to perform Islam.

  • LOL!

    ISIS stooge is in denial. He keeps repeating ISIS propaganda and is in tune with their goals, working towards making them happen and wonders why he is called a stooge. Poor pathetic thing

    Whereas you make wild guesses about what Muslims believe and do from what you read online, I simply talk to my neighbors and take a few steps outside my door. You are repeating garbage from hate sites. It is just that obvious. There is no way I can possibly take you seriously.

    Id1ots like you are the best resource ISIS has in the West. You are doing more to further their aims than any terrorist attacks could.

  • Representative Republics are not suicide pacts. There is no constitutional obligation to allow and tolerate occupation by a fifth column of enemy combatants obligated by their demon to conquer the world, including us.

    Islam is the antithesis of self-rule systems including democracy and republicanism. It entails “Allah’s law”: rule by the Koran and sunnah. Legislation made by men is harram in Islam.

    Islam seeks to destroy and replace all non-Islamic governments. Refer to Maududi’s “Jihad In Islam”. Muslims are obligated to conquer the world, refer to Ibn Khaldun’s “Muqaddimah”, pg. 303.

  • So this week my condo community had a carnival hosted by the local PBA.

    So naturally, it was halted by an angry mob of Saudi expats who were threatening to burn it all down because there was non-halal food being serviced, dancing, and the presence of copious non-muslim residents enjoying themselves.

    Oh wait that didn’t happen at all. It is what you think happens here (but doesn’t).

    There were plenty of obviously Muslim families enjoying themselves along with the Korean, Yuppies, Central Americans and Orthodox Jews living in a 4 mile radius of me.

    I bet you would consider my local Wal Mart a “no-go zone” because of the plethora of hijab wearing cashiers. (In Hudson County NJ). The Starbucks in my complex, frequented by Saudi expats livinh in the same building would send you into a apoplectic coma.

    One town over madrassas and yeshivas are within blocks of each other! How can that be, according to you??? Muslims are all kill crazy terrorists according to you!!! Oh right, you are full of crap. Nothing more than a stooge for ISIS.

    You can go stew in your own hateful juices. I am going to pick up some kebabs from the at the carnival outside my building.

  • OMG! You are absolutely right!

    The Halal Meat/Shwarma truck outside my office (in Lower Manhattan) is owned by a vicious terrorist! He has been trying to slowly kill me by raising my sodium levels with MSG laden meat, hot sauce and whatever is in that white sauce that goes with it all! /sarcasm

    You are a seditious traitorous worm. A vile miscreant who hates our free way of life and seeks to destroy our democratic society. Anyone who calls our first amendment freedoms a “suicide pact” is Un-american scum. A terrorist. A fifth columnist seeking to undermine our power to serve our enemies.

    We do not target people on the basis of their religious beliefs. It is what we were created as a nation to prevent. You have no regard for anything of value in our country or what it stands for.

    Our free way of life is not a minor convenience to be tossed aside for panicky bigoted bullcrap. It is what we must always protect. What makes America great. Too bad you hold such things in utter contempt. Just like ISIS does.

    BTW dummy, what you have always missed is there is no sane or reasonable argument which goes “____ religion is evil and its believers are the enemy of humanity” None. Never. It is always just bigots spouting bullcrap.

    You parrot ISIS propaganda and work towards their goals. You are an Anti-American terrorist loving fool. You are a disgusting, stupid, and vile person. Whatever God you may believe in, may he have mercy on you. Because I can’t think of you any lower than you have demonstrated yourself to be.

  • Islam is a lie and Muslims are liars, Spuddie. Moe got no divine revelations, he faked them. (At quranx, enter “was revealed” in the full search tab.) He put words in the idol’s mouth to sanction his evil proclivities. Even his child bride wised up to his situational scripture. (Bukhari 6.60.311)

    Muslims are liars, Spuddie. 3.28 gives them license to lie for self protection and the advancement of Islam.

    Muslims are not your friends, Spuddie. 3.28 threatens damnation for equal and inferior relations with infidels. Other ayat in Surahs An-Nisa, Al-Maida & At-Taubah confirm the prohibition. Muslims are commanded to shun their infidel fathers and brothers.

    To learn the truth about Islam, read it’s books. Qur’an, tafsirs, hadith collections, sira and jurisprudence. That is how I learned, Spuddie, and so should you. Begin with tafsir al-Jalalayn, then read the fourth volume of Bukhari.

  • Drop the fantasy & diversion, Spuddie. Confront the detail in the “Letter To The Rulers Of Ayla”. That’s what Islam, what Muslims do where there are enough of them. In Indonesia, Pakistan and Egypt, Muslims persecute Christians with impunity, with the approval of the regime. Islamic violence is a function of demographics: the more Muslims in an area, the more they attack.

    I showed you the most important part of the letter and gave you a link to it. But you are unable and unwilling to address the fatal fact of Islam. It is a mercenary and martial crime gang disguised as a religion.

  • Drop the bullcrap pretense of knowing a damn thing about the subject. You are giving me inherently bigoted arguments and nonsense and expecting it to be taken at face value. You are giving me the same kind of nonsense every sectarian hater gives me on the specific religions they despise. You sound like a neo-nazi, you are the same damn thing for all intents of purposes.

    What you call fantasy is just normal living in the area of the US with the third largest Muslim population after MI and NY. One of the densest immigrant centers in the nation. Evidently one that completely blows your mind in light of the bullcrap you sling. If you were any more full of crap I would have to call you Port-a-Potty.

    You decry things such as rule of law, freedom of religion and a democratic way of life.
    YOU ARE A TERRORIST STOOGE!

  • You are an terrorist stooge who calls a free democratic way of life a “suicide pact”. Contempt for is a light way of describing how such views should be treated.

    You keep giving me selective quotes you picked up on a hate site. So what? I am sure that goes over on Breitbart, Townhall, or the Pepe the Frog Reddits you probably frequent, Your shtick is cliched and overdone. I am not buying it. Nor do I ever have to take such things seriously. You are a joke.

    I love hearing the ignorant excuses you bigots put up for why American Muslim communities are not the multigenerational slums you see in Europe. Hint hint, it has to do with citizenship by birth and sane naturalization policies. Things Europeans don’t do.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2017/04/12/refugees-migrants-and-the-politics-of-fear/
    Four decades of foreigners coming into the U.S., noting that “the chance of an American being murdered in a terrorist attack caused by a refugee is 1 in 3.64 billion per year while the chance of being murdered in an attack committed by an illegal immigrant is an astronomical 1 in 10.9 billion per year. By contrast, the chance of being murdered by a tourist on a B visa, the most common tourist visa, is 1 in 3.9 million per year.

  • You continue projection & calumny, Spuddie; Coming to a fact fight armed only with raw hate must hurt. I do not feel your pain. Name the Islamic books you have read: which Koran translations? Which hadith collections? Have you ever opened any of the Islamic law manuals?

    Argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy, not a defense. But you are trying to defend the indefensible.

    Face reality, Spuddie! Moe sent threatening letters, not just to Khaybar, Persia & Byzantium but to a Christian city in Jordan.

    He made his plans clear: genocidal conquest. Only ignorant fools can believe that Moe founded a religion of peace.

    Open Guilaume’s “The Life Of Muhammad” and read the table of contents; explain the numerous inclusions of raid, ghazwat, attack, conquest and murder. Why are those terms in the biography of the founder of the “religion of peace”?

  • I get that you don’t want to admit people from religions other than Islam are capable of carrying out terror attacks in the name of their deity. In fact, however — and as made evident in links I already posted to you — that simply is not true. All your links do is carry on this same irrational vendetta against Islam … and thus do nothing to refute what I’ve told you. 

    When you have something to say which is actually on point and addresses what we’ve already discussed, let me know. 

  • I support freedom of religion for practitioners of legitimate religions. Muslims are a hostile and subversive class. Ref. Jihad In Islam, pg. 10 & Muqaddimah, pg. 303. previously cited. See also QV 9.5, 29 120 & 123. Refer further to Hedaya 2.141; the translator’s marginal note and the sentence which it interprets: “Destruction of the sword is incurred by infidels although they be not the first aggressors.” To Hamilton, that means “Infidels may be attacked without provocation.”.

    Muslims have no rightful beliefs! If there is a right to believe that yer god gave the whole world and everything in it to you, ya just gotta take it from it’s owners, then nobody but Muslims has any rights.

    Islamic state is a subset of zealous, believing Muslims, neither adding to nor subtracting from the curseworthy doctrines and practices of Islam. Their objective is world conquest & caliphate. Mine stimulating the government to pursue is their extinction.

  • Of course you don’t. You want the government to target, ostracize and discriminate people on the basis of their religion. Period. You are full of crap.

    Your opinion on any given religion belief isn’t worth a thing here or elsewhere. You are just a bigot in denial. Now run back to your sub Reddits. You have nothing to say here. Haven’t for days.

    You are an ISIS stooge. Just deal with that fact like an adult.

  • The only real significance of halal products is the certification fee. Halal certification agencies pay 2.5% Zakat on each transaction and accumulated wealth. A 1/8 share of that Zakat is paid to terrorists. When you buy halal, you are subsidizing terrorists.

  • You have three arguments, Spuddie: ad hominem, Moronic and irrelevant. All of them miss the mark by a wide margin.

    What were the chances of Constantinople being conqured by Muslims? And the chances of their victims locked in burning churches?

  • You still here? You haven’t picked up your check from ISIS yet? You still need a few more posts before you earn it? I see.

    Your schtick is old, worn out and ridiculous. Keep telling yourself you are not a stooge for terrorists as you enable their aims of undermining our democratic and free way of life and take their propaganda at face value.

    What are the chances you will ever have a clue as to what American Muslims are like? My guess is the sight of a hijab sends you into cold shivers and shouts of “No-Go Zone!!!”

    Go away. You are not as clever as you think you are. You are giving me the same crap neo-nazis love to sling. Your ignorance and stupidity is profound and counterproductive to the work of real americans.

  • Not how such designations work or are provided. Your ignorance is duly noted. When have you not been talking out of your posterior orifice. It is a religious shakedown of fees paid to clergy. But one on par with Kosher and Desi certificates. An inspection, a modest payoff, a certificate.

  • The racket turns over $2 trillion. The terrorist’s share of the Zakat on that is: 625,000,000,000,000. Not a trivial sum.

    1/8 of .025 is .00625. Multiply it by your favorite estimate of halal cert. revenue.

    Reliance Of The Traveller, h8.17 allocates the 1/8 share. Read it and weep.

  • LOL! Change it to Kosher and you have the exact rant neo nazis gave me about a month ago. All part of the “Zionist global” conspiracy.

    But waitaminute if all Muslims are terrorists and all Muslims buy halal meat, they aren’t generating new money to fund terrorists. They are just moving the same money around between each other.

    That doesn’t work. .

    Oh right, you are full of crap. Never mind. You are still under the mistaken impression I consider you anything other then a joke. How pathetic. I am bored with you. Your shtick isn’t getting any more creative or amusing. Blocking you now. Get bent, loser.

  • Tu-Quoque & ad hominem are logical fallacies. Too bad the reptilian brain can’t comprehend that. Jews ain’t doing terrorism or financing it with “charity”; Muslims do that.

  • You will never accept facts. Only Islam commands fighting, striking terror and genocide. Only Islam promises great reward for terrorism and threatens damnation for not doing it. Only Muslims are doing it on an industrial scale. You can not accept these facts because they do not comport with your prejudice.

  • Re: “You will never accept facts.” 

    On the contrary, I only accept “facts.” 

    Re: “Only Islam commands fighting …” 

    That is absolutely 100% not true! All exclusivist religions “command fighting.” That includes Christianity. They can’t not do so, because their exclusive nature compels it, at times. 

    I know you’re going to tell me Christianity is a pacifist religion, but we both know that’s a goddamn lie. Christianity is anything but pacifist, and hasn’t been since Priscillian, bishop of Ávila, was executed for his “heresy” near the end of the 4th century. Only a couple decades later, St Augustine cooked up his theory of a “just war” and set Christianity’s bloodthirstiness in concrete. 

    Don’t lie to me and say it’s not true. I’m not going to listen to it. Not even for a second. If you tell me it’s not true, I’m going to dismiss you as delusional and in need of treatment for your mental illness. 

    Re: “Only Islam promises great reward for terrorism …” 

    … except for all the other exclusivist religions that tell their followers to bludgeon everyone else around them into submission. 

    Re: “Only Muslims are doing it on an industrial scale.” 

    Really!? Do you actually intended to sell me on that lie? 

    Christians have been guilty of atrocities far in excess of anything modern Muslim terrorists have ever dreamed of. Tens of thousands of people, for example — Christians, Jews and Muslims alike — were slaughtered in Jerusalem in 1099, when the First Crusaders finally captured the city. Tens of thousands more — faithful Catholics and “heretical” Cathars alike — were slaughtered in 1209 when papal forces captured Beziers during the Albigensian Crusade. Millions were killed during the course of the Thirty Years’ War, fought between Protestant and Catholic princes over the future of Christendom. And of course there’s that little thing that happened in the first half of the 20th century, when millions of Jews were executed by the Third Reich solely because they were Jewish. 

    I’m not going any further with this — because I don’t have to. If you’re going to tell me Christianity had nothing to do with all these atrocities (as well as many others), again you’d be lying, and I will not for one moment tolerate that from you. 

    Re: “You can not accept these facts because they do not comport with your prejudice.” 

    It’s YOU who’s “prejudiced.” It’s YOU who refuses to see that not every example of religionistic excess, through history, has come from Islam. It’s YOU who refuses to acknowledge the bloodthirstiness of Christians (not to mention Jews, and Buddhists, and Hindus, and the followers of pretty much every other religion I could name). 

    To paraphrase Mercutio in Romeo & Juliet … this cynical, cold-hearted, godless agnostic heathen calls down “a pox on all your houses!”

    Dude, freaking grow the hell up already. OK? The rest of us would appreciate a little less of your raging, crybaby sanctimony and infantile bigotry. OK? 

  • “You are an ISIS stooge. Just deal with that fact like an adult.” That, Spuddie, is a perfect example of projection and ad hominem.

    Islam is not a religion, it is a continuing criminal enterprise disguised as a religion. It recruits by force, revealed in 8.39, 9.29 & Sahih Muslim 19.4294.

    Islam retains members by force: 4.89 & Tabari, Volume 10, pg. 58.

    The mission of Islam is mercenary: Surah Al-Anfal = “Spoils Of War”. its verses 1, 41 & 67 are exemplary. Moe was “made wealthy through conquests” Bukhari 3.37.495. The ostensible and genuine purposes of Jihad are exposed in Hedaya vol. 2, pages 144, 145 & 214: spoils.

    The method of Islam is martial: 2.216, 2.190, 8.39, 8.65, 9.5, 9.14, 9.29, 9.111, 9.123 & 61.9-12.

    Those, Spuddie are facts, facts which must be fatal to Islam; facts which you can neither disprove nor refute. You bring malignant malarkey to a fact fight. You lose.

  • You are on the wrong side of a moral issue, Spuddie and you have no valid facts or logic to support it. You bring venom, bile and malignant malarkey to a fact fight. You lost. Admit it.

  • Argumentum Tu-Quoque is a logical fallacy. We know what you are, what I am is indifferent. Nothing said or done by deity or men, at any time, in any place subtracts from the intrinsic evil of Islam.

    Christianity is defined by Jesus and his Apostles in the Gospels, not by what corrupt and venal men did in his name after him.

    There is no war, terror or genocide imperative in the Gospels!!! The Parable Of The Talents is an allegory, not an imperative.

    Moe defined Islam with his recitation and exemplified it with his sunnah, which confirms the Jihad, terror and genocide imperatives in the Koran. Islamic law codifies them: Reliance o9.8 & p, Hedaya vol. 2, “Al-Sayir” and Risala, chapter 30 are based on Koran and sunnah. Try reading Ibn Tamiyya “The Religious And Moral Doctrine Of Jihad” and Maududi “Jihad In Islam”; what are the Christian equivalents and how do they relate to the teaching and practice of Jesus?

  • Re: “Argumentum Tu-Quoque is a logical fallacy.” 

    Except that’s not what I’m saying. At all. You’ve contended Islam is somehow uniquely violent. I’ve demonstrated it isn’t. That’s entirely logical, as it disproves your contention. 

    Re: “Christianity is defined by Jesus and his Apostles in the Gospels …” 

    Christianity is what Christians say, do, and think. Which includes when they carry out atrocities in the name of their faith. 

    Re: “There is no war, terror or genocide imperative in the Gospels!!!” 

    Yet that hasn’t prevented Christians from happily engaging in all of those things. So your statement is irrelevant and of no account. 

    Re: “Moe defined Islam with his recitation and exemplified it with his sunnah …” 

    So what? Are you saying Christians’ atrocities are justified, in light of this? How, then, are you not employing the same tu quoque fallacy you accused me of (but which I haven’t engaged in)? 

    Re: “… what are the Christian equivalents and how do they relate to the teaching and practice of Jesus?” 

    How the hell would I know? You’ll have to ask all the Christians who carried out atrocities over the last couple millennia. Where did they get their justification? Go ask them, not me. 

    All I can do is point out the historical reality that those atrocities happened — even if you’re too infantile to admit it. 

  • Mt. 10.14 is the model for Christians. Sahih Muslim 19.4294 is the model for Muslims. Those are polar opposites. Jesus told his disciples to kick the dust from their feet and leave. Moe told his field commanders to invoke Allah and attack.

    Rome co-opted Christianity and spread it with it’s military. That is Rome’s doing, not Christ’s. Islam was designed to spread by the sword, refer to the hadith quoted in Tafsir Ibn kathir “The Benefits Of Iron”.

    Muslims provoked European Christians with invasions and interference with pilgrimage. Nothing wrong with slaughtering the aggressors but they should have left the Jews alone. Jesus, a Jew, was not a Jew hater. The church deviated from his example. Islam continues to emulate Moe’s.

    Resource: “Skeptic’s Annotated Koran” They gave the Bible the same treatment. Google it.

    “Religion of peace” :

    (I was sent with the sword just before the Hour so that Allah be worshipped
    alone without partners. My provision was placed under the shadow of my spear,
    and those who defy my order were disgraced and humiliated, and he who imitates a
    people is one of them.) [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]

    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet
    said, “My livelihood is under the shade of my
    spear ,(1) and he who disobeys my orders will
    be humiliated by paying Jizya • [Bukhari vol. 4, pg. 108] {Footnote 1 is ‘Under the shade of m spear ” means war booty. It was lifted from Fatyh al-Bari.}

    Why did DarUssalam Publishers expurgate the hadith? Why was it completely removed from the USC-MSA hadith data base and untranslated at sunnah.com? Why can I find it at quranx in the tafsir but not the hadith?

    They do not want us to know that Islam spread by the sword! On page 56 you can read a modified form of the translator’s footnote to 2.190 which defines Jihad.

    Al-Jihad (Holy fighting) in Allah’s Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry),is
    given the utmost importance in Islam, and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By
    Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior. [His Word being (La ilãha
    il/allah which means none has the right to be worshipped but Alläh)J, and His religion
    (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad, (may Allah protect us from that). Islam
    and the Muslims fall into an inferior position, their honour is lost, their land is stolen,
    their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam, on every Muslim,
    and he who tries to escape from this duty or does not in his innermost heart wish to
    fulfil this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.

    Read that lest sentence again, then, with it fresh in your mind, read 4.89 in the Koran. The one who meets Allah as a hypocrite goes to the fire.

    How can holy war (Muslim 19.4294 “make a holy war”) be part of a “religion of peace”?

    How can “fight them until” and “fight those who… until” be part of a “religion of peace”?

    How can “fight those of the disbelievers nearest you” be part of a “religion of peace”?

  • Re: “Mt. 10.14 is the model for Christians. Sahih Muslim 19.4294 is the model for Muslims.” 

    Irrelevant. Christians do what Christians do, and Muslims do what Muslims do. 

    Re: “Rome co-opted Christianity and spread it with it’s military.” 

    No, Christianity co-opted Rome.  

    Re: “Muslims provoked European Christians with invasions and interference with pilgrimage.”  

    So what? Christians counter-attacked, and (for example) reclaimed Spain.  

    Re: “Resource: ‘Skeptic’s Annotated Koran’ They gave the Bible the same treatment. Google it.”  

    Nope. Not doing it. None of this is relevant. 

    Re: “How can holy war (Muslim 19.4294 ‘make a holy war’) be part of a ‘religion of peace’?”  

    The same way the followers of “the religion of love” (i.e. Christianity) can carry on “just war” (as explained by St Augustine and as later Christians have elaborated on). It also can happen the same way the followers of presumably pacifist religions like Buddhism can terrorize Rohingya in Myanmar.  

    Look, you can quote sacred texts all day long and try to portray Islam as vastly more violent than every other religion on earth … but none of that has any bearing on anything. Because in fact, all religions are capable of terrible violence — and they’ve proven it historically. I already listed a number of atrocities carried out by Christians in the name of their religion. Every other major religion is the same.  

    You don’t get that. I know why. You’re insanely infantile and think that bashing Islam makes your own religion, Christianity, look better. However, things don’t actually work that way. As I’ve explained, Christianity is what its followers say, do, and believe. When they carry out atrocities in Jesus’ name, that is Christianity!. Comparisons of sacred texts don’t matter when Christians have shown themselves capable of atrocities.  

    The only way for you to carry your argument is to refute my primary premise, which is that Christians, and followers of other non-Islam religions, have committed atrocities. So go ahead and do that. Prove that things like the massacre of Jerusalem and the Thirty Years’ War never happened, or that Buddhists in Myanmar aren’t terrorizing Rohingya. Please, by all means, I invite you to do so. Get to it already and stop shoveling all this meaningless drivel about holy texts at me. I’m not as easy to swindle as you think. And your “Gish gallop” methods don’t impress me. 

  • Humans are capable of horrific violence & bestiality and frequently perform it. Ibn Khaldun, in Muqaddimah, described the Arabs as “savage and plundering”. Islam, based on Arab culture, is predatory: savage and plundering, by design, from the time in Medina when Moe first assembled a small fighting force and raided camel caravans. After Khadija’s death and the Hijra, Moe got his living by his spear. Islam’s reason for existing is to preserve his income stream.

    Case in point: Rohingya: they raped and murdered one Buddhist girl too many and outrage took it’s natural course. Patience and pacifism have their limits.

  • Islam is intrinsically violent, by design. Muslims engaged in aggression obey Allah and emulate Ancient Hebrews claimed a

    divine command to conquer Canaan and certain tribes that attacked them. Christianity has no built in violence. Violent Christians contravene the teaching and example of Christ.

    Open any Qur’an or tafsir translation and read Surat Al-Anfal, At-Taubah, Al-Fath, Muhammad & As-Saff. Verify the obvious fact with Sahih Bukhari volume 4, Sahih Muslim volume 5, pg. 15…, Reliance Of The Traveller, Book O, Chapter 9, Hedaya, vol. 2, pg. 139… and Risala, Ch. 30.

    For quotes, links and more sources:

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/212631107/Jihad-Defined-and-Exemplified-pUpdated

    Islamic violence was preached in three dispensations: none, defensive/retaliatory and offensive according to the status of Moe’s army.l In the early Mekkan period, with no army, Moe preached tolerance and forbearance. In Yathrib, with a weak force, he revealed permission to fight defensively. When his army grew strong enough to conquer Mekkah, he preached offensive violence.

  • Re: “Islam is intrinsically violent, by design.” 

    If that’s true, why do you refuse to show that it’s appreciably more violent than all other religions? You haven’t done so yet. Why won’t you? Why, also, do you refuse to admit other religions — including Christianity, but also others — has propagated violence, at times? 

  • Comparative aggression is irrelevant! Jesus defined Christianity, not “Christians”. Moe defined Islam, not “Muslims”. Muslims are engaged in it, others are not.

    Nothing said or done by others subtracts from the intrinsic and immutable evil of Islam!

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