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As Senate nears Kavanaugh confirmation vote, faith voices speak out

Protesters against Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh march toward the Supreme Court in Washington on Oct. 4, 2018. (AP Photo/Manuel Balce Ceneta)

WASHINGTON (RNS) — As senators remain embroiled in a contentious battle over Brett Kavanaugh’s potential elevation to the U.S. Supreme Court, faith groups are increasingly voicing both passionate opposition to and support for the nominee.

On Wednesday (Oct. 3), the National Council of Churches — which boasts 38 member denominations with 40 million members — unveiled a sternly worded statement demanding Kavanaugh withdraw from consideration. The group argued the federal judge “exhibited extreme partisan bias and disrespect towards certain members” of the Senate Judiciary Committee during his testimony last week. As a result, the NCC said, Kavanaugh “demonstrated that he possesses neither the temperament nor the character essential for a member of the highest court in our nation.”

The statement also claimed Kavanaugh made “several misstatements and some outright falsehoods” during his remarks. An NCC representative later told Religion News Service that the group is concerned about the allegations against Kavanaugh: “We are deeply disturbed by the multiple allegations of sexual assault and call for a full and unhindered investigation of these accusations.”

The NCC letter sparked a surge of traffic that crashed the organization’s website and was quickly followed by news of another letter opposing Kavanaugh, this time from a group of Catholic nuns — the Benedictine Sisters of Baltimore.

“We urge you, plead with you to vote NO on the confirmation of Judge Brett Kavanaugh,” the letter read. Authors railed against the additional FBI investigation into Kavanaugh’s background this week, which has been criticized as too short and too narrowly focused by the White House: “The doubts are too many, and the FBI search is being too narrowed to resolve any of this. Let our young women know how valuable they are to the future of this country.”

On Thursday, Interfaith Alliance — which claims members from 75 religious traditions — also broke its precedent of not opposing or endorsing Supreme Court nominees and called on Kavanaugh to withdraw.

“As a matter of principle, Interfaith Alliance does not endorse or oppose nominees for government positions,” the statement read, explaining that the alliance had only raised questions about his political beliefs when he was first nominated. The statement went on to express concerns about Kavanaugh’s “belligerent testimony before the Judiciary Committee” in response to questions regarding sexual assault allegations and his past alcohol consumption, saying he “crossed a line into a political rant” and raised questions about impartiality.

“We cannot support the confirmation of a Supreme Court Justice who has demonstrated a pattern of playing fast and loose with the truth for his own benefit,” it read.

Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh speaks before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Capitol Hill in Washington on Sept. 4, 2018. (AP Photo/Andrew Harnik)

Other faith groups, however, have maintained stalwart support for Kavanaugh, who has been called a “warrior” for religious liberty by some conservatives.

Conservative Christian groups such as the American Family Association have pushed for a swift confirmation.

“AFA is relieved that Judge Kavanaugh has been voted favorably out of committee, but the fight is not over,” AFA President Tim Wildmon said in a statement. “It is time for the full Senate to confirm Judge Kavanaugh immediately. … Issues important to the American Family Association, such as sanctity of life and religious freedom, are taking on an even greater importance in our culture, and how the Supreme Court rules in these matters will affect every American.”

Jerry A. Johnson, president and CEO of National Religious Broadcasters, described criticism of Kavanaugh as “the Left’s disgraceful character assassination in service of raw power politics,” adding that he “eagerly anticipate(s) Judge Kavanaugh being sworn-in as the next associate justice of the Supreme Court.”

The conservative Center for Security Policy also called on supporters to make Thursday a day of prayer for Kavanaugh, and President Trump’s evangelical advisers have continued to offer their enthusiastic support.

Texas pastor and Trump advisor Robert Jeffress told Fox News that the battle over Kavanaugh isn’t between Republicans and Democrats, but “between good and evil.”

“Make no mistake about it: The reason the left hates Kavanaugh is not because of his judicial philosophy, it’s not because of what he may or may not have done to Dr. Ford — the Democrats don’t care one thing about Dr. Ford,” Jeffress said in reference to Christine Blasey Ford, one of Kavanaugh’s accusers. “They are afraid that if he is confirmed as a Supreme Court justice, he may chip away at Roe v. Wade and diminish the number of babies being murdered every year in the womb. … Conservative Christians see this.”

Last week, the editors of America Magazine, a Catholic Jesuit magazine, rescinded its endorsement of Kavanaugh after his Sept. 27 Senate hearing. Organizations of religious women — such as Mormon Women for Ethical Government and then 320 Episcopal clergywomen — had also called for further investigations into allegations of sexual assault by Kavanaugh. Some faith-based protesters demonstrated in Washington, D.C., last week against and for his potential confirmation.

About the author

Jack Jenkins

Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for RNS based in Washington, covering U.S. Catholics and the intersection of religion and politics.

186 Comments

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  • This is nothing but pure politics. This whole debacle is a sham, a display of dems trying their best to scuttle his nomination by scaring their base. What I think we can deduce from this whole circus is that the dems have not learned anything from 2016. Frankly, although I vote dem, I will not be supporting them this election either and I hope they either remain or lose some seats. Until they can denounce their own rabid radicals I do not intend to vote dem for what will probably be quite a while. I am so ashamed of what they have become, how nasty they are, and their unadulterated hatred of anything that is not rabid with them. I will continue to support the poor, and equal rights but not the way they scream about, because unlike them I do not loath the other half of this country. In fact there are quite a lot of decent caring folks that have been harangued within an inch of their lives and it must end.

  • Gosh, these “faith voices” appear to be the usual left-leaning pro-abortion pro-Democratic voices who from time-to-time mumble “religion” in between working to advance an anti-Christian agenda on behalf of secularists.

  • Something for all these groups to remember: “Do not twist justice in legal matters by favoring the poor or being partial to the rich and powerful. Always judge people fairly.” Or favor women or be partial to men, or favor Blacks or be partial to Whites, or any other division other than guilty or innocent.

  • National Council of Churches against Kavanaugh! Now there’s a shocker. The usual left-leaning church organizations can always be counted on to try cloaking secular agendas with their anemic respectability. All this degradation of justice and fairness in order to slander a jurist with an excellent reputation and name just to make sure it remains fully legal in all jurisdictions to kill a child.

  • The NCC would have accused Jesus of showing “extreme partisan bias” and “disrespect” to the money changers in the temple when he overturned their tables and demanded they stop making his father’s house a market.

    Kavanaugh has been butchered by an orchestrated Democratic smear campaign of the most vile and unethical nature and has had his family dragged through the sewer and he had the gall to expose their advise and consent for what it was, a malevolent search and destroy mission. What about the “extreme partisan bias” of Diane Feinstein, and her despicable duplicity to wreck his career with unproven and dubious allegations, aided by mendacious and sycophantic media?

    A pastor had been sitting in a Turkish prison for two years and now under house arrest after being arrested on spurious charges of participating in an attempted coup of the government, supported only by sham witnesses and zero evidence….Now some radical anti-Trump fanatics want to bring the “guilty until proven innocent” police state system of justice to America in corrupt support of the #MeToo movement.

    Hell no!

  • One would think that boofing would be automatically rejected by church people. Same with Devil’s Triangle. But then, when you consider that these folks celebrate Lot, a character in the Bible, for offering up his virgin and betrothed daughters to a mob of sex-crazed men (Genesis 19:8), well, you find out that discernment is something they kill off at many churches.

  • I’m not aware of anyone who celebrates Gen. 19:8. There’s little in Genesis that can be corroborated by historians or archeologists, and most scholars are reluctant to take these stories literally. I have never heard anyone, Jew or Christian, suggest that Gen. 19:8 is something to be celebrated.

  • Monica Evangelicals read the Bible literally. I agree that saying they “celebrate” the story of Lot is a bit extreme. BUT they do read the story and all of Genesis as literal historical TRUTH.

  • Good morning, Edd.

    Yes, everyone understands that as a long-time member of the AFL-CIO, NEA, Americans United etc, and so on you call everyone who disagrees with you names.

    We’ve just had a big dose of this nonsense from the Senate’s Democrats.

    I support all the rights that are in the Constitution as amended, not the rights that are in your head.

  • Bob disagrees with Roe v Wade, Reynolds, Everson, Lemon and many other SCOTUS rulings. And he despises Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, etc.

  • Why would we exclude or excuse that verse from the entire story of what Lot did and said at Sodom according to Genesis 19? It is the main proof that the whole thing never happened, because no God ever prompted any decent man to say such a thing with respect to his daughters. Are you really, really, really unaware, though, that the church-based supporters of Trump (and Kavanaugh) actually DO CELEBRATE the entirety of that story inside the concept of “The Bible is the Word of God, inerrant”? THEY don’t exclude or excuse it because it would ruin their main hoax about the veracity of scripture if they did. I don’t exclude or excuse it because IT IS AN OUTRAGE ON EVERY LEVEL. And you have some other position? What is that? That it’s excludable and excusable because you just happened to have not heard people talking about it?

    Genesis 19:8 is probably one of the most important verses ever written for readers to use in differentiating “human rights” from “religious rights”. Downplaying it is not what physicists or accountants ought to be doing.

  • Let every accuser bring forth 2-3 eye-witnesses for every charge against Judge Kavanaugh in a court of law as the Bible demands; everything brought forth so far has been unproven and must be considered a lie until established. Sadly, many people who call themselves Christians are making false charges against this poor victim of a political hate-campaign. Let us pray for the Judge and his accusers.

  • I agree that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is what Hermann Gunkel and other scholars call “saga” — a story meant to portray the mighty acts of the LORD on behalf of those who believe. I don’t have any proof that Trump supporters dwell on the idea of Lot offering his daughters as described in Gen. 19. Many Evangelicals are not fundamentalists, but people who strongly support certain ideas, e.g., opposing abortion. Since Kavanaugh is Roman Catholic, his education would have led him to treat Genesis as saga.
    If you want to verify your statements, you can easily consult evangelical commentaries on Genesis.

  • I am a veteran of the evangelical community. I lived within it for decades. I am WRITING a commentary (here, with you) on that particular part of Genesis, not trying to review what others may have written. We need to know OUTRAGEOUS when we see it, and we do not need to go to the theological library for our world views.

  • Good. Your experience allows you to represent your experience, not to generalize about what everyone believes. The idea that all evangelicals believe the Lot story is contradicted by available evidence.

  • What evidence? You are generalizing a great deal more than I am. Where do we go to hear that Donald Trump’s evangelical advisors (Graham, Reed, Jeffress, Falwell, White, Huckabee, Focus on the Family, American Family Association, any of the TV preachers, or spokespersons for any church doctrine) actually do renounce or cast any doubt whatsoever on the story of Lot and Sodom? I mean today, right now in real time?

    As for abortion, the “evidence” is pretty clear that Kavanaugh spent the early part of his life advocating the male behaviors which actually cause the abortions to take place. This ought to resonate and register with church people, unless the “armor of God” they speak about is actually a blindfold and a pair of earmuffs.

  • but they, were punished by The ANGEL with blindness for their corrupt way of seeing. and lot knew, damn well the homo’s were not interested in his daughters. and i, do not know of anyone who celebrates what lot did. or any righteous person, who would want to imitate lot. Avraham, could not think of any righteous person in sodom and gomorrah including lot.

  • i, do not think any of you realize just how dangerous their pagan occult religions are. they, are trying to force, their pagan religious beliefs on all. and weaponizing the government, with fascism to establish their occult pagan religion on everyone. and using your own tax money, against you to support their pagan religious causes. and they, are religiously better organized than any of your religions contrary to theirs.

    i seriously doubt, the religious counsel of churches, would support their ignorance, if they were under the same conditions as kavanaugh. even them, having their families threatened for false pagan religious causes.

    wake up! we, are in a very dangerous spiritual war against the pagan religions.

  • So God told us by this story in his Word that Lot was to gamble his daughters on the chance that the homo’s (your expression) would not be interested? That THIS is the story God wanted told in THIS manner with THAT detail, irrespective of how tone deaf it is to 1) those daughters or all daughters, 2) the young men who were betrothed to those daughters, or all young men, 3) any sensible father of daughters, and 4) “any righteous person” (your expression)?

    There are a lot of good reasons for rejecting this whole story as having been written by one or more cranks, not by God. There are even more good reasons for a majority of us to stand up and declare that the story is NOT moral guidance. If we were doing that, the shift of the world to Putinism in Russia and Trumpism in America would both have been completely impossible. The Sodom story is actually the root operative mess turning the world meaner in the 21st Century. (No, that is not an overstatement, and no, I am not gay.)

  • Well, what’s the deal with these church groups? I have searched in vain for any reference to Jesus Christ for the political decisions. I even got out my magnifying glass looking for an obscure reference to Jesus Christ. I found nothing (unless I’m missing something). After all, these are church groups and pastors. Aren’t they supposed to represent Jesus Christ? No?? Well, to pastors and church members, I remind y’all to receive Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, obey him, and publicly talk about him.
    BTW, church groups and Christians (?) are sharply divided over these issues, as the article indicates. Jesus Christ expects his Church to be in unity, harmony, and love in submission to Him. Obviously, this is not happening. Large numbers of “Christians” either do not belong to Jesus, or they are ignoring him! This is disgusting! 1 Corinthians chapters 1 & 3 divisions in the Church and great loss for so-called “Christians.” If you claim to belong to Jesus Christ, then talk like him and act like him!

  • If the Evangelicals were “stronger on moral issues” they would not be saying in their doctrinal statements that the Bible is the literal word of God and inerrant. They would be saying outwardly to the world “on paper” the same more-balanced response(s) which Pew and Gallup can elicit from them in the confidential polls you cite. Very few of the churches do that, however, and virtually none of the “Evangelical” churches do—–because of the business models. You have hit on the main inconsistency. It’s related to why Evangelical church has no explainable salable positions on a variety of other issues as well—-health care, gun restrictions, environment, consumer protection, workers’ rights, wealth divide, business regulation, justifications for any public sector at all in economics,—-the whole long list.
    Why not? They are stuck with scripture which either gives no guidance or bad guidance on dozens to hundreds of the real issues confronting a big country or a big world. Unable as they are to acknowledge this or edit anything, they are quite susceptible to being hoodooed by any sharpies from around the block. Trouble is, they give away everyone’s lunch, not just their own. Climate change is addressed only in the context of abortion and gay-hating. Tax cuts too. Unions? Yep. Public education? Yeah, that too. A jerk for president? Another one for Supreme Court? All before your eyes.

  • Don’t you people have anything better to do with your lives than persecute LGBTQ+ people for attention? Apparently not.

  • What on earth does autism have to do with reading the Bible literally? That is really a stupid comment.

  • I don’t agree with either men or other women who look for ways to put down, discredit, make fun of, or write off as fake or insignificant, the emotional struggles of other people—–especially women—– whether those difficulties are occasioned by traumatic events, or merely by nature and nurture. That said, I also don’t necessarily agree with absolutely everything ever conjured up in the fields of psychiatry, psychology or counseling. I put a like on your sentence written to me without knowing anything about or expressing an opinion on anything related to Neil Brick. As for the Satanic Temple, anybody who seeks to advocate any position on any subject whatsoever while affiliated with or using a name like that—–I want to be as far away from them as possible. My brand of being a leftie excludes fooling around with the occult in any way, shape or form.

  • That is, of course, your prerogative. The Satanic Temple makes the entire realm of non-Christians look bad by attacking abuse survivors, just like how trolls on this forum make all Christians look bad by attacking Kavanaugh’s accusers.

  • Sorry, but nowhere in the Genesis account (or anywhere else in the Bible) does it say that God approved of this action of Lot.

  • Prep school girls, listen up: If you know alcohol and/or other drugs are to be used at a party, don’t go. If you go and alcohol and/or other drugs are present, leave immediately preferably calling 911 in the process to report underage drinking and illegal drug use.

  • Conspiracies aside, I didn’t find any denigration of “sexual abuse survivors” in his comment. In fact, I found no reference to ‘sexual abuse survivors” whatsoever. It seems you don’t even have to turn over a rock to discover your bete noir.

  • Your comments have zero relevance to Kavanaugh other than assigning motive and poisoning the well out of your own irrational malevolence to see him brought down by police state justice.

    I tefer you to Send. Susan Collins speech this afternoon for a thoughtful response. I’m sure you can find it on YouTube.

  • So, now the looming question becomes, what are all these angry Progressives going to do once Kavanaugh is confirmed? Will their heads explode? Will they howl at the moon (again)? Will they riot, or try to start a “revolution”? Or something worse (When Progressives hit bottom, they start digging)? What’s their next move now?

  • There is nothing “thoughtful” about standing behind a serial rapist. You people don’t seem to understand that actions have consequences.

  • Dr. Ford is a sexual abuse survivor, along with all the other Kavanaugh accusers, not that you care.

  • What’s America going to do with an alcoholic, abusive liar sitting on the SCOTUS? That will affect you, as well. He couldn’t maintain his composure during the hearing, and now he’ll channel his pathological anger into destructive, self-serving, shi**y decisions. America is not great again.

    Thanks to the age of Trump, no one has to be honorable, thoughtful or decent to serve in government.

    Like Clarence Thomas, Kavanaugh (if he is not impeached) will serve the rest of his stint on SCOTUS with the spectre of his past haunting him. And that’s what bad men deserve.

  • “the National Council of Churches — which boasts 38 member denominations with 40 million members — unveiled a sternly worded statement demanding Kavanaugh withdraw from consideration.”

    Too little, too late, a$$holes. This is why no one cares what Christians think: If you people had the ability to think, you wouldn’t be Christian.

    There is no forgiveness for denying women access to abortion, or for condoning sexual predators anywhere in the government. What the hell is wrong with you people?

  • I totally refuse to persecute gay folks, period. But brazenly and crazily stealing them away from Gay Goliath’s no-good slave plantation in broad daylight? THAT’s entertainment !!

  • If Dr. Ford’s “handlers” (to whom she was steered by the Democrats) had ANY real concern about her as an “abuse survivor,” they would have accepted the Senate’s offer to interview her in California, in private, so that her information could be heard by them without putting her anguish and personal struggles on public display before the entire nation. But no — her handlers knew that the spectacle of an anguished female venting such an accusation would be compelling TV — as indeed it was — and they cynically grabbed that option by throwing Dr, Ford’s real interests and concerns under the bus, completely and irreversibly. And, adding insult to injury, it didn’t even work. Thus, Dr. Ford is the ultimate loser in this circus — she surrendred herself, her privacy, and any semblance of a normal life to a sacrificial ritual that turned out to be utterly feckless.

  • News flash Ms. McFarland: You have zero evidence…none! No empirical forensic evidence…No corroborating evidence, and no contemporaneous witness evidence…not even any circumstantial evidence. All you have is worthless politically motivated media tainted slander and hearsay…Hardly the basis for a functioning democracy where rule of law is valued.

    The allegations against Kavanaugh have collapsed because they were never true…but I understand none of this matters in the least to you because in your world triangles are round and water is not wet. The innocent are guilty, and truth is whatever you “feel.” Truth is what you “want” to be true…not what “is” true.

    What makes you and your ilk so dangerous is that history is littered with wreckage of despots and tyrants who in their moral certitude, thought just like you and millions died as a result because they threw basic civil and human rights out the window.

    The last time I checked, trying to deny the civil rights of a disfavored group has a name, it’s called sexism, racism, and bigotry…but perhaps there are no mirrors in your house, otherwise you would see what a hypocrite you are.

    I’m done here.

  • They aren’t “smears” and they aren’t baseless. That’s what his classmates from Yale saw, and that’s what I saw at the hearing. Have you boofed yet today?

  • God didn’t approve of the dialogue and put that line in “His Word” anyway? No, that doesn’t pass the logic test. If God didn’t approve of an extraneous and unnecessary detail like that, it would not be in the Word of God.

    Or, more probably, the story is a myth written by a man or men and is not the product of God at all. Other hints about the questionability of Chapter 19 are the ideas of God rescuing a man but allowing his wife to be turned into a pillar of salt (her own fault, of course) and Lot later impregnating both of his daughters without knowing that he did (their own fault too, of course, for supposedly getting him drunk for this purpose). This stuff is all crazy and should be called crazy by any honest person.

    If ever there were a real Sodom and a real Gomorrah destroyed by a geologic catastrophe, we should be telling only a real story about how or why it happened. We don’t make up stories anymore about God intentionally destroying people and things with storms, earthquakes, volcanos or meteor strikes. No one should have ever made up that story either.

  • Then at least visit a secular public library? Come on, you gotta do better than this “celebrate” accusation.

  • The non-Christians should be renouncing the Satanic Temple as not helpful on any level or for any purpose. Some do, some don’t. I certainly do renounce the whole idea that any such-named organization should even exist or be doing anything at all.

  • I despise your interpretations of Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Reynolds, Everson, and Lemon which falsify a zany notion of church-state relations.

    Roe v. Wade was not based on the Constitution.

    However, it is the law of the land.

    I have always advocated remedying it with a constitutional amendment pursuant to Article V.

  • You think that because the Bible recounts some people’s sinful words or actions, that means those sinful words and actions therefore somehow have God’s approval?! Because the Bible recounts the stoning of St. Stephen, that act therefore has God’s approval? Or because it recounts the murder of Abel by Cain, fratricide has God’s approval? How ridiculous!

    Concerning Lot’s wife and daughters, you actually answer your own question. God allows people to do foolish and silly things, due to their own free will. Your previous post is proof of that.

  • Facts are what gives an allegation a factual “basis.” The (most recent) FBI investigation turned up zero confirming factual evidence. It’s already clear that no evidence of the incident exists apart from the recollection of the accuser – her reminiscence is the ONLY thing supporting the charge. If the Democrats really wanted to “investigate” the validity of the allegations, they would charge the FBI with probing Dr. Ford’s memory. But here’s where you can do some investigative work of your own:

    https://staff.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm

  • wow! so now you, are blaming me for what The ANGEL did? since i only, reported what Their Scriptures indicate. you, do not need my help to persecute yourselves. your all, doing such a fine job of that without me.

    and if i, wanted attention. i, would not be telling the truth. i, have no desire to be the most famous liar in the world. those, seeking attention do all the lying. lies circle the world a dozen times, before truth can get it’s shoes on. people, lie to make themselves appear more important than they really are.

  • Nope.

    But Dianne Feinstein sure exposed her true character.

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/liz-peek-kavanaugh-confirmation-were-finding-out-what-plenty-of-americans-think-about-all-the-chaos

    “According to the Harvard poll, ‘75 percent of voters believe that Senator Dianne Feinstein should have immediately turned over the letter from Christine Ford to the Senate Judiciary committee in July when she received it.’ Americans believe in fair play; Feinstein’s actions were dishonest.”

    The Republicans will give her a hard row to hoe from now until death or retirement.

  • No I don’t. You and all the “every word of the Bible is true” crowd defend reprehensible stories from the Bible. I say they didn’t happen but rather are the myths of men. You call them truth and God’s Will, Word or both. I call them a slander on God. There is nothing in the secular public library which bears on this for your side. “Celebrate” is what you do when you pass off nonsense and never admit that it is nonsense.

  • “Good morning, Edd.”
    It all depends on how you divide his handle. I think he divides it “Ed Doerr.” Personally, I prefer “Eddo Err.”

  • I think the Bible was written by men, not by God. There is no evidence to the contrary of that belief on my part, by the way. Some of it is good and helpful for making its readers better people. Some of it is bad and a hindrance to people everywhere. The entire 19th chapter of Genesis is an example of the latter. You HAVE TO justify the inclusion of the worst—-because it is there—- to make your theology work and HAVE TO make excuses for God dropping stuff like that upon humanity without guiding clarification. (Lot was a good guy or a bad guy?) I don’t——– and wish people would stop slandering kindness (and God) by spinning a historical collection of men’s old writings as anything more than a collection of men’s old writings.

    This business that people must embrace OT junk in order to follow a NT Jesus is the ruination of what Christianity is supposed to be and do in people’s lives.

  • the lady in question Dr Ford said 4 other people were there on the night – they all said they were not. She may have been sexually abused by someone, but there is no proof sadly. As Christians, sometimes this is the case for us – we are wrongly accused and cannot defend ourselves. This Judge has been accused and he cannot prove he is innocent. But also there is no proof he was there – there is no proof she is a sexual abuse survivor Charlotte – she may be, but she may not be. That is the problem with sexual abuse allegations – they have to remain allegations until someone proven, or it is the highest point of likelihood that it did definitely occur.

  • no one celebrates drunkenness, may the reality is – we do understand that we are all sinners, from Lot to David to Peter to you and I – and this Judge also. However, we have no choice BUT to work with sinners, as all have sinned, and particularly when you are young – did anyone reading this NOT drink too much, or say stupid things, or put their own life at risk? I doubt it. The story of the men is Genesis is told as an historical event, it is not celebrated either FriendlyGoat (usually people who do not use their own name and picture are not going to put up anything genuine sadly- is that the case with you?

  • the story of the men is Genesis is told as an historical event, it is not celebrated either FriendlyGoat (usually people who do not use their own name and picture are not going to put up anything genuine sadly- is that the case with you? Where is your real picture and real name? or are you a troll ? just a genuine question

  • Science and Faith are not opposites, many Christians are Scientists, or scientifically based in their thinking or profession (I should know I am married to one) .. Science tries to work out HOW, but not WHY – Christianity in particular will seek to express to mankind the WHY – it doesn’t celebrate everything that is written in the history 66 books of the BIBLE – they are poetry, history, first-hand accounts, prophecy etc.

  • Exactly – the Bible is the Word of God and expresses poetry, revelation, prophecy and history amongst other things. Not everything is celebrated – but we can learn from everything in those 66 books. Also FriendlyGoat is most probably a troll as he does not use his real name or photograph so will continually just argue without wanting genuine answers

  • In my 45 years as a Christian I have never seen a Christian persecute gays – but I have met a lot of gay people with a persecution complex – so they think anyone who disagrees with them is persecuting them. By that logic, you would be persecuting Christians as you disagree with us

  • I am a man, retired from free enterprise, still married to one woman 47 years. I belong to no organizations, am paid by no one, and write comments as a hobby on several sites. I am a Christian individually, was in church for decades, and no longer have any interest in “fellowshipping” with those who supported Ronald Reagan, two Bushes, Dole, McCain, Romney and now Trump. I happen to be smarter than to bring this comment section stuff into real life with personally identifying pictures or names.

    I also do NOT assign more credibility to others’ comments based on whether they do stick their necks out in such a reckless manner with real names, real pictures. I personally think people who do that stuff on Facebook, Twitter or here on Disqus are completely crazy—–since they all have families, neighbors, business associates, friends who actually would much prefer to NOT hear their political opinions.

    This was the genuine answer to your genuine question. As for Genesis 19, the event is not historical. It is a fable. Once you get to that understanding you will not be one accused of celebrating bad God information. But as long as you HAVE TO revere that chapter, you ARE celebrating it.

  • The problem with Kavanaugh is that he has obviously lied—–at 53—–to the Senate and to the whole country on several issues. When church people excuse this, they are either blind or nefarious in intent.

  • Even if you put the allegations aside, his temperment is unacceptable, as is your blindness and stupidity. That was clearly demonstrated during the hearing, but a$$holes like you stand up for other a$$holes like you.

  • well i, do not use the bible. i, am strictly a Torah Scholar. which contains all seven days of world history, happening here in IT again. from Day One with Noach to Day Seven with The Male Child adam and his sister resurrecting all for the next hereafter. where currently we, are at the very end of The Sixth Day. where the story of christianity, takes place from the end of The Fourth Day on to The Last Day. The Same Story again, after Adam is put to death, and returned as adam and his mate – aka jesus christ.

  • judging others on the basis of your way of lying is a very poor source of judgement. the righteous and the unrighteous, do not see the same picture. if your origin source, is wrong then so are you. there are only three possibilities, your right the other is wrong, the other is right and you are wrong, or both are wrong. and vanity, always pretends your right. i, know my SOURCE is not me.

  • Why shouldn’t I call you a “troll”? I mean, you are not only spinning bull but going negatively personal on other people (me). Good grief, Heather. That ain’t debate.

  • It’s part of a continuing pattern of mis-calls and mis-cues. He used to be a bigwig in Americans United for Separation of Church & State, but made it clear that he really only wanted to separate Christianity from the State. He strongly opposed AUSCS joining as co-plaintiffs in the (ultimately successful) lawsuit to prevent Maharishi’s Transcendental Meditation from being taught in the New Jersey public schools, on Constitutional grounds. (Malnak v. Yogi)

  • the temperament of a man and his family, being threatened by thugs are acceptable for any real man. what i, saw in the hearing was the attempted gang rape of an honest man falsely accused. i, even observed child abuse and cyber bullying from democrats against kavanaugh’s daughter. disgusting people, making threats against children. and you, are part of that disgusting crowd. and you, want for me to believe your no evidence and no witness fabrications?

  • The allegations against Kavanaugh do not collapse on the vote of 51 senators. They will be evident in his performance on the Court for years to come. He is a liar at 53 on a variety of issues including his judicial intent and reasons for wanting to be on the Court. Stay tuned. The grandkids of the nation are going to think your take on this to have been a slap on everything decent—–for a long time with real consequences.

  • what, do you mean they are not renouncing you? i, understand your occult pagan religion better than you do. and what you call satanic is most likely a lie. since there, are the two worse temples than satanic. the three angels on the loose today, are hasatan, baal hamolech, and hamavreek (aka lucifer) and i, seriously doubt you know how to recognize which is which. but as a hint one, is recognized as the baby murderer. another, is known as a male egotist. and the last, is in charge of the fairy boat navy.

  • Jimmie, it is apparent Brett Kavanaugh misled about ever being of legal age for high school drinking in Maryland and about the nature of the actual meanings of junk he put in his yearbook. He misled on his own capacity to be a judge for all the people, misled Collins on his actual interpretation of precedent, and misled on his views of executive privilege by vigorously going after Clinton—–but not Trump in the future, no matter what because, well, he changed his mind since a Republican is in office. As for your SOURCE not being you, that’s baloney. You can’t write insults to me pretending that God runs your keyboard. Go away.

  • oh! yeah that, sounds like you are really a christian. denouncing, THE WORD of ELOHEEM. well i, have a word for your alleged christianity is pagan!

    you can neither be a christian or jew, denouncing The Word if ELOHEEM given to Moshe. the devil, likes to pretend they are something they are not. but of course the occult pagan devils, are going to denounce scripture that reveals who they really are. also known as, the subtle talking critters of the fields.

    you, are no better than the lying occult pagan religions. that, call themselves democrats.

  • The facts are that he was an arrogant little jerk and is now an arrogant big jerk. That is never going to change or be disproven.

  • I said I renounce them, not anything about them renouncing or not renouncing me. I don’t have an occult pagan religion, and stay completely away from anything occult, including your suggested angels on the loose.

  • You’re a nutcase. Why don’t you go bother 500 CEO’s of the Fortune 500 with your analyses of the world? If you are a seer, they will drop whatever they are doing for your insights. As for me, I’ll just love my wife, pet my dog and have a nicer life without you in it.

  • well i am, a retired government scientist. and even i know that there, have been surrogate mother’s giving birth to a couples child. so your, statement is false. we know it, can be done.

    so it is possible for ELOHEEM, to place a fertilized egg into the womb of a woman to fill in the flesh. and i am, also an ordained Pastor and Rabbee.

    i also know there is a lot of horse man ur, being passed around as legit science.

  • It’s not that “every word is true”. There are plenty of things in there which were recorded as lies for example, esp things that satan said in several places, so those words aren’t “true” cuz they’re found in the bible. And there are things which were ugly truths but not meant to be any example to follow.

  • maybe you, need to clean out your eyes and ears. whether you intentionally or unintentionally, missed the fact i am a retired government scientist.

    and of course i am a nutcase, because i caught your lying. that is how, narcissists act.

    and thank you! for not being in my life. and the greater problem with a nicer life, is everything is downhill from your ivory tower.

    and i am too interested in ELOHEEM, to accept your uninteresting fortune 500 ceo offer. with my +30 years of higher education, and top secret work experience. i, have declined many offers.

  • You’re spinning. Countless churches claim that the Bible is the Word of God, inerrant, sufficient in all matters, the Word of Truth in all respects. Whenever Satan is quoted, what is considered true by those churches or by Bible believers is that Satan’s bad words or deceptions are actually said by Satan (whether “he” REALLY said them or not). My observation is that most of the people who make these kinds of claims about the Bible are NOW completely enraptured with one Donald J. Trump. When I graduated high school in 1969, this sort of structural rot among the preponderance of church people was utterly impossible. Not anymore. The more they lied for decades about what the Bible is, the more they prefer to worship a serial liar on all other subjects. Religion went completely crazy. Worshipping the “book” instead of a spirit of goodness and goodwill is the proximate cause of this spiritual catastrophe.

  • Suckin’ on the government teat for a lifetime while being on the political side of despising it, eh? And name dropping your credentials and secret contacts as though I will be impressed? Dang, you’re a worse jerk than I even thought. You did NOT catch me in any lie whatsoever, however and if I was in range I would punch your lights out for saying you did. As it is, I will just block your arrogant and conflicted little soul. You will need to find someone else to needle who will actually see your posts. I won’t.

  • Didn’t bother with your link. But I had a nice afternoon with real goats who are better company.

  • So…what, exactly, IS the proper demeanor for an innocent man falsely accused of a heinous crime as part of an elaborate political stunt? I’m eager to know how you think he should have responded. For that matter, how would you have responded? I realize it’s probably hard to “put yourself in his position,” but how would you react if you were falsely accused of abominable behavior in order to achieve somebody else’s political goal?

  • So you would prefer that the Bible were all Kumbaya rainbows and unicorns feel-good stories. Got it.

    Sorry, but the real history of man is not like that.

  • Your assumption of “falsely accused” is wrong. She may not have been able to prove her allegation, but that doesn’t mean it never occurred, and you have no evidence that she was lying. We’ll stop there, because your stupidity and bias won’t allow you to be rational and compassionate. Even if he was falsely accused, having a temper tantrum isn’t the adult response, especially for a Supreme Court nominee whose job it is to wade through all kinds of declarations, some false and others not. Or didn’t you know that?

  • Fetuses are human. They were conceived by humans. Bear human DNA. Are seen as human in every way. To cut them into pieces is murder…no, slaughter. Leftists and those with seared consciences can scream that they are not human but in the deepest recesses of their hearts, they know they are lying.

  • I would prefer the Bible regarded as what it actually is—–assembled stories mostly about only one small society, overlaid with the emphasis boiled down from error and ridiculousness to two main commandments. I would prefer God redefined as what Jesus actually was, and ministry redefined as the call to be honest and kind with other people in all matters. This is all supposed to be a Holy Spirit transformation of individuals such that they (we) don’t yell “Merry Christmas” from behind our armaments, but rather say “Peace on Earth, Goodwill Toward Men”. Turning the other cheek is supposed to work. Sharing is supposed to work. The “asks” in the Lord’s Prayer are supposed to work. The Beatitudes are supposed to work. Forgiving others is supposed to work. All of this is why we got the Messiah we got and not some other kind (like, say, a warrior king who some wanted then, and who some still want now.)

  • In short, Bob despises Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, the other Founders who agreed with them, and the SCOTUS’ rulings upholding their view, just as he despises women’s rights of conscience and religious freedom. Roe was based on the privacy principle the court majority found in the Constitution.

  • You know, deep down, that the rights of pregnant people trump the rights of dependant tissue in their uterus, but you just don’t care. This is why no one cares what you think.

  • Nonsense. Christians like Scott Lively and Franklin Graham persecute LGBTQ+ people for a living. Shame on them, and everyone else like them.

  • You know she is telling the truth, but you just don’t care about the rights of sexual abuse survivors at all. #ThatsSoChristian

  • You’re a paid Russian troll who doesn’t understand English grammar. Republicans know that they can’t win elections without Russian interference.

  • If all they were doing was advocating for abortion rights and church/state separation, I would have no problem with them. However, under the present circumstances, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

  • Millions have died because they didn’t have access to abortion, not that you care. Kavanaugh is guilty as sin, and Repulicans are fascist theocratic tyrants who seek to establish Christianity as the only acceptable religion, in direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

  • Her claims are true, and that’s why she receives death threats on a daily basis from Nazi scum like you.

  • There is no “Gay Goliath” and no “plantation”. You get off on lynching LGBTQ+ people for attention, because you’re a KKK mole.

  • Like I told you, I’m not as familiar as you with the Grey Faction, but the Satanic Temple is a crazy name which only crazy people would ever embrace. What’s in a name (as they say)? Just about everything.

  • well i, don’t make false accusation. that, can be proven with your own false words. and if you, are going to criticize someone else’s grammar. then you should, take extra care in your attempt to criticize. is accusations without proof, just a democrat thing?

    and no charlotte i, do not capitalize the insignificant. i, do not follow rules blindly. i, do not capitalize anything ung-dly. no matter how much of a g-dess, you delude yourself to be.

    where is your proof i am, a paid russian spy. and why, have you not contacted the fbi with your conjecture? i am sure they, could use a good laugh now days.

    nor do i believe, the fbi agrees with your faulty conclusions. about it, was a russian republicans conspiring with russia. lacking any real proof, of your allegations. since the trump russia, collusion accusation has backfired. exposing russia democrat, conspiracies. and it even, gets more embarrassing from there.

    so if you, have any proof of your allegations. give it to the fbi, and keep your mouth shut about it. because if there, were any truth to this. you, could be placing yourself, your family, and friends in danger. if you, suspect anyone of any crime. contact the proper authorities not the criminals.

    it is not, worth placing yourself and your loved ones in great danger. don’t send out, rsvp invitations to be murdered or harmed in any way. psychological warfare, does not waste time on individual conversations. their goal, is to reach as many as quickly as possible.

  • Have it your way. You’re obviously going to do that – in your own mind – in any case. But I’ll make two observations in passing:

    1) I asked you to put yourself in his place, to imagine how you would react in a similar situation – in effect, to exercise some “empathy.” But you are either unable or unwilling to do that, throwing up the “but he’s guilty” fantasy as a barricade to any serious self-examination.

    2) Senator Collins’s speech on the floor of the Senate Friday not only demolished the “but he’s guilty” fantasy, it equally exposed the scurrilous game the Democrats have been playing with this nomination. In case you haven’t heard it, here it is:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRpSJed5xsA

    You will surely stay within your protective bubble, along with your Progressive cohorts. Meanwhile, for the rest of the country, that bubble has burst.

  • You didn’t respond to a single thing I said. This isn’t a “conversation” to you — it’s a talking points megaphone.

  • Why would I be glad about a rapist being nominated to the Supreme Court, just so he can attack abortion rights?

  • You are totally a paid Russian troll, as evidenced by your atrocious grammar.

    “because if there, were any truth to this. you, could be placing yourself, your family, and friends in danger”

    That is a veiled threat. You have been reported.

  • The Grey Faction exists solely to discredit cult victims and their therapists, exactly as the Christian right is now trying to do to Christine Ford.

  • You do realize that the country is not a theocracy, right? This wasn’t a trial, it was a job interview. A job he in no way was entitled to receive.

  • “…you have no evidence that she was lying.”

    What was needed was evidence that she was telling the truth. And there was none. In our system, allegations without any corroboration, evidence, or the testimony of witnesses are not adequate proof of guilt. They were commonly used, however, to obtain convictions under the old soviet system, which no doubt you would be more comfortable with.

    In addition, her fake story about being unable to travel by plane did indeed out her as a liar, leaving her credibility about other matters close to zero.

  • It was no more a “job interview” than greeting a crowd with a knotted rope in its hands and burning torches is a “job interview”.

    No one is “entitled” to become a Supreme Court Justice.

    It requires nomination by the President and advice and consent of the Senate, both of which were accomplished.

    It was an object lesson which the Republicans, and the voters, need to take to heart.

    Bork, Thomas, and Kavanaugh demonstrate the wisdom of “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.”

    Feinstein in what is left of her career in the Senate is going to find the sledding tough with the Republicans.

  • So innocent life, intended to be protected by those who are more powerful and stronger, can be thrown away brutally by the one person in the universe most charged with protecting it? It is not “dependent tissue” — that is a convenient evasion of the fact it is a human being. And it is not important whether my opinion is significant: it is important to speak up against the barbaric and evil slaughter of children.

  • “Millions have died because they didn’t have access to abortion, not that
    you care. Kavanaugh is guilty as sin, and Repulicans are fascist
    theocratic tyrants who seek to establish Christianity as the only
    acceptable religion, in direct violation of the 1st Amendment.”

    That may be true, but that doesn’t mean Kavanaugh was guilty. Innocence until proven guilty.

  • Strawman. The fetus isn’t innocent, it is using another woman’s bodily fluids to stay alive without the woman’s consent. The woman has a right to self defense.

  • Kavanaugh told lies under oath, but you dismiss that and hold him to a different standard. Why is that?

  • Can’t recall location.

    Can’t recall date.

    No idea how she got there.

    No idea how she got home.

    People she cited as witnesses have no idea what she is talking about.

    Changed her story about incident after extensive prepping by democrat operative lawyers.

    Zero corroboration = Zero credibility.

    You foolishly think that it is sufficient simply to make an allegation, and then the accused must disprove it. That ain’t the way it works here in America, bud. Here the burden of proof lies with the ACCUSER, and the accused is innocent until PROVEN guilty. In this case, Kavanaugh has not been proven guilty, due to Ford’s the lack of credibility, evidence, and any corroboration.

    Sorry if you don’t like the high standards of Justice we have here in America. Whining about it won’t help. Maybe you would be more comfortable in some socialist banana republic with lower standards.

  • Now YOU are lying. I have not written ANYTHING about the allegation that Kavanaugh lied under oath, so to say that I “dismiss that and hold him to a different standard” is a lie you just made up out of thin air.

  • He said, dozens of witnesses said otherwise. This was not a criminal court proceeding, just a job interview for a lifetime appointment. We don’t put binge drinkers on the Supreme Court, without Russian interference.

  • Fetuses are not children. You have no problem slaughtering pregnant people with septic miscarriages. Fetal abnormalities can go undetected for months, especially in places where Christians have closed all of the clinics that could detect them. Pregnant people have rights, including the right to abort their fetuses. Too bad you don’t care about actual, real-life people.

  • You put that well, but I think you’d agree that’s a little different than “every word is true”. And how is this a spiritual catastrophe? You don’t think we should feel the same about a Pres as to a pastor? This is where evangelicals have been wrong for too long.
    But….”enraptured” by the Pres….? People were never enraptured in voting for him, they were desperately against seeing H in office. And now people are very pleasantly surprised at the job he’s doing. But hardly enraptured. I think you can only see them as enraptured if you think the unbelievable amount of hate against him, is on the level of normal.

  • Can I jump in here and ask– what evidence? Someone says something happened, closest friends didn’t confirm it at all, and lies were told such as fear of flying. A testimony is evidence but may not be “clear” evidence at all. Or do you feel that women should just be believed?

  • Why does the Christian right get any credit or blame? Ford and her witnesses already discredited her.

  • look at your atrocious grammar first, before you accuse others. as you, could call good advise what ever insane accusation you want. but the conclusion for the advice, states you knew you were lying. making vain insane accusations, without any logical proof. obviously you, did not actually read those quoted sentences carefully.

  • No, that was the Christian right, running a smear job against a number of credible witnesses, because that’s how much they hate abortion.

  • obviously you, did not learn English grammar before posting on this forum. #PaidRussianTroll

  • Don’t try to shift your immoral and bloody assertions to bogus attacks on Christians. Elective abortions account for overwhelming majority of cases, not the rare and dramatic cases death dealers cite to justify their brutality.

    Impossible as it may be for someone who so little values life, it is a human being, as any definition of human life would indicate. If one is determined to kill, you can always redefine the definition of human to justify your murder. That is on you and your soul.

  • That is the most bizarre and insane argument I have ever read. You are suggesting the woman, who had sex with the understanding that pregnancy could result, is not responsible but is being assaulted by a malevolent unborn child whom she must defend against? It is her child, not some foreign object. You need to stop using Alien as your moral and philosophical guide.

  • That is how Christians attempt to justify bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors. Abortion is a pregnant person’s choice to make, not yours. Get your opinion out of other people’s uteruses, you psychotic terrorist, you.

  • So — according to you, pregnancy is a war between the mother as host and the fetus as an unwelcome internal parasite. Good enough. I think that says pretty much all that needs saying about the rationality of your viewpoint one the subject.

  • There is abundant evidence that Evangelicals believe the Lot story (which is the subject to which you are replying, not anything about believing women.) The abundant evidence is that very few Evangelicals or their leaders disavow the Lot story.

  • If your pastor is not supposed to be a liar and a crook, your president should not be either. At least my president should not be. The reason why half the people in the country are upset with him is because he gathered in the church people and made them into mean lunatics. They threw out anything they ever knew about the Holy Spirit and decided Machiavelli with colored, sprayed hair was a better thing to worship and follow.

  • I’m not sure if we’re talking of the same witnesses but I meant those she referred to as being at that party etc. If you’re at all referring to those, then I’d wonder what smear campaign could possibly be needed.

  • Dare I pester you on this, but your earlier post talked of having a spiritual of goodness and goodwill. Does that still apply toward those who annoy you?

  • Not if their annoyance is unnecessary annoyance, on purpose annoyance or aggressive annoyance. You’re the same on that BTW. Everyone is.

  • You obviously have too loose a grip on civility, truth or free speech to engage in a conversation. Bye.

  • wow! you almost, followed my rule of caps. by not capitalizing the first word, in the best grammar sentence you wrote yet. even before i, chose to quit using caps. i, wrote better grammar sentences than you.

    and it, would be more likely that russian trolls. could write better, grammar sentences in english than you.

    but unlike the liars, i do not accuse anyone of something. i, have no actual proof against. nor do i judge, anyone. by the grammar, they use. but by the context of, their own words only.

    but the fact that you, consider your grammar better than thou. speaks loads about, your mental attributes, and about your indoctrination.

  • Your inappropriate use of punctuation indicates that you are a paid Russian troll. Freak.

  • Smear campaigns against victims are how abusers get on the Supreme Court. Stop attacking victims for attention.

  • well it is still uncertain, if you are a paid internet stalker. no matter how obvious it is you, are a stalker, a chronic narcissist, and a pagan.

  • But Charlotte, do we really know she’s a victim? If so, did we know the accuser of the Duke lacrosse guys was a victim? We should at least be intellectually honest, don’t you think?

  • I’m the same? You don’t know me. No, I have plenty of people annoying the daylights out of me, one person even conned me out of money. I took legal action but not vengeance or violence, as tempting as that was. The simple fact is, anybody can be be nice with those who are nice to them, but is that a virtue?

  • Yeah, you’re the same. When people intentionally try to push your buttons, you react negatively. Everyone does sooner or later.

  • well i, would never say “bite me” to a zombie. and people, who claim to worship satan are far worse off liars than that. i, would highly suspect the other two angels of sins. since it is highly unlikely, you are a male chauvinist pig.

  • well you, do not even know what particular part of genesis we are all here in again. hint: it is after the death of Adam, and after Adam is returned as The Male Child adam and his aside a sister. it, ain’t happening any different that the last two times resurrected again.

  • Charlotte, based on what we all saw, is there enough to just decide to “believe” anything–for either side? And again, what about the accuser of the Duke lacrosse guys–what of the people who just believed her, and plenty others like her? It’s one thing to listen and take seriously but that’s not the same thing as “believing”, wouldn’t you agree?

  • I certainly don’t believe that a virgin gave birth, as you do. What the hell is wrong with you people?

  • I don’t follow you; so if the virgin birth is ridiculous, then someone’s claim to being a victim is more credible, so yes, we should do that, or…..? I’m asking a perfectly fair question. Let me ask a different way–were the people who believed the “victim” of the Duke team, doing the right thing? (I’m assuming you’re familiar with that) Again, I’m not making a claim to believe either side–only questioning how it’s possible to just believe a claim (which was full of inconsistencies).

  • Virgin birth is an incoherent contradiction on its face. No sensible person would ever believe such a fallacy. Dr. Ford, on the other hand, is a credible witness who should be believed.

    But no one expects Christians to understand how evidence works.

  • To clarify, enough people held the accuser of the Duke men as credible, were they doing a good thing or were they presumptuous? Is Ford credible because she’s educated and articulate? If so she wouldn’t have needed to also mention witnesses, (but which didn’t help). I’m not willing to judge her as fraudulent or a victim based on what was presented, since it could also be that she was a victim but is sincerely mistaken on some key details. But no one SHOULD be assumed credible when they alone make a claim, that’s not enough evidence, is it? I think you can agree here. But I welcome you to tell me if I’m not not being sensible or understanding of how evidence works.

  • You are not being sensible, nor do you understand how evidence works. It sure would have helped of the FBI had actually interviewed all the corroborating witnesses.

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