Holding candles, a group of girls waits for the start of a memorial vigil at the intersection of Murray Avenue and Forbes Avenue in the Squirrel Hill section of Pittsburgh for the victims of the shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue. A shooter opened fire Oct. 27, 2018, killing multiple people and wounding others, including several police officers. (AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar)

Police: Synagogue gunman said he wanted all Jews to die

PITTSBURGH (AP) — The suspect in the mass shooting at a Pittsburgh synagogue expressed hatred of Jews during the rampage and told officers afterward that Jews were committing genocide and he wanted them all to die, according to charging documents.

Robert Gregory Bowers killed eight men and three women inside the Tree of Life Synagogue on Saturday (Oct. 27) during worship services before a tactical police team tracked him down and shot him, police said in an affidavit, which contained some unreported details on the shooting and the police response.

Officials released the names of the 11 victims during a news conference Sunday, all of them middle-aged or elderly. The victims included a pair of brothers and a husband and wife. The oldest was 97.

Mayor Bill Peduto called it the "darkest day of Pittsburgh's history."

Calls began coming in to 911 from the synagogue just before 10 a.m. Saturday, reporting "they were being attacked," court documents said. Bowers, 46, shot one of the first two officers to respond in the hand, and the other was wounded by "shrapnel and broken glass."

A tactical team found Bowers on the third floor, where he shot two officers multiple times, the affidavit said. One officer was described as critically wounded; the document did not describe the other officer's condition.

Two other people in the synagogue, a man and a woman, were wounded by Bowers and were in stable condition, the document said.

Bowers, who was armed with an AR-15 rifle and three handguns and used all four weapons in the attack, told an officer while he was being treated for his injuries "that he wanted all Jews to die and also that they (Jews) were committing genocide to his people," the affidavit said.

Bowers was charged late Saturday with 11 state counts of criminal homicide, six counts of aggravated assault and 13 counts of ethnic intimidation in what the leader of the Anti-Defamation League called the deadliest attack on Jews in U.S. history.

Bowers was also charged Saturday in a 29-count federal criminal complaint that included charges of obstructing the free exercise of religious beliefs — a federal hate crime — and using a firearm to commit murder. U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions said the charges "could lead to the death penalty."

It wasn't clear whether Bowers had an attorney to speak on his behalf.

The victims included Melvin Wax, who was always one of the first to arrive at synagogue and among the last to leave.

"He and I used to, at the end of services, try to tell a joke or two to each other," said Myron Snider, a fellow member of New Light Congregation, which rented space in the basement of Tree of Life. "Most of the time they were clean jokes. Most of the time. I won't say all the time. But most of the time."

Snider said "Mel," a retired accountant in his late 80s, was unfailingly generous and a "sweet, sweet guy."

The nation's latest mass shooting drew condemnation and expressions of sympathy from politicians and religious leaders of all stripes. With the midterm election just over a week away, it also reignited a long-standing and bitter debate over guns.

Pope Francis led prayers for Pittsburgh on Sunday in St. Peter's Square.

"In reality, all of us are wounded by this inhuman act of violence," he said. He prayed for God "to help us to extinguish the flames of hatred that develop in our societies, reinforcing the sense of humanity, respect for life and civil and moral values."

German Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman quoted Merkel on Twitter as offering her condolences and saying that "all of us must confront anti-Semitism with determination — everywhere."

German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier wrote in a condolence message to President Trump that "this abhorrent crime reminds us all to do what is in our power to advocate against hatred and violence, against anti-Semitism and exclusion, and to counter with determination those who incite them."

Trump on Saturday said the outcome might have been different if the synagogue "had some kind of protection" from an armed guard, while Pennsylvania's Democratic Gov. Tom Wolf, up for re-election, noted that once again "dangerous weapons are putting our citizens in harm's way."

Calling the shooting an "evil anti-Semitic attack," Trump ordered flags at federal buildings throughout the U.S. to be flown at half-staff in respect for the victims. He said he planned to travel to Pittsburgh but offered no details.

In the city, thousands gathered for a vigil Saturday night. Some blamed the slaughter on the nation's political climate.

"When you spew hate speech, people act on it. Very simple. And this is the result. A lot of people dead. Senselessly," said Stephen Cohen, co-president of New Light Congregation, which rents space at Tree of Life.

Little was known about Bowers, who had no apparent criminal record but who is believed to have expressed virulently anti-Semitic views on social media. Authorities said it appears he acted alone.

The Jewish community is "an important part of the cultural and social identity of Pittsburgh, and so this was an attack upon our neighbors and upon our friends," Scott Brady, the chief federal prosecutor in western Pennsylvania, said. "We will spare no effort or resource in ensuring that the defendant is held fully accountable for his unspeakable and hateful crimes."

The gunman targeted a building that housed three separate congregations, all of which were conducting Sabbath services when the attack began just before 10 a.m. in the tree-lined residential neighborhood of Squirrel Hill, about 10 minutes from downtown Pittsburgh and the hub of Pittsburgh's Jewish community.

During the week, anyone who wanted to get inside Tree of Life synagogue had to ring the doorbell and be granted entry by staff because the front door was kept locked. Not so on Saturday — the Jewish Sabbath — when the building was open for worship.

Michael Eisenberg, the immediate past president of the Tree of Life, said synagogue officials had not gotten any threats that he knew of before the shooting. But security was a concern, he said, and the synagogue had started working to improve it.

(Mark Scolforo, Allen G. Breed and Claudia Lauer write for The Associated Press. Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers Mark Gillispie and Gene Puskar in Pittsburgh, Eric Tucker and Michael Balsamo in Washington, Marc Levy in Harrisburg, Michael Kunzelman in Silver Spring, Md., and Michael Rubinkam in northeastern Pennsylvania.)


  1. Nothing much we can do about MAGA terrorism. Just hope they stay away from schools.

  2. Bower despises Trump, considering him a sock puppet for “the Jews.”

  3. For not being Trump-like enough. Not following up on the rhetoric and positions he has advocated. Stop being so dishonest here.

    If you have used the term “globalist” or blamed George Soros for some current news event, you have joined in the anti-semitic bile inherent to this terrorist’s views.Think about that for a moment.

    Considering the dehumanizing language to describe illegal aliens and refugees, the extreme anti-gun control stance, the acceptance and normalizing of violent bigoted language common to Trump supporters, it was just a matter of time before it would result in murderous violence

  4. Please point to one anti-Semitic remark that Trump has ever made. For that matter, ask the citizens of Israel if Trump is anti-Semitic. If anything, it’s likely that Trump’s strong support FOR Israel, not to mention his easy acceptance of Jews in his family, is what drove Bower to commit mass murder.

  5. Now would be a good time to remember that 71% of American Jewish voters in 2016 did not vote for the Trumpism into which we have descended. By their electoral choice for a variety of reasons in their individual minds, that 71% did not align with the Trumpian style of talk or policy—-even if Trump had a Jewish son-in-law (and converted daughter) and even if he would allow Evangelicals to goad him into moving the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. By this electoral measure, we should thank “the Jews” in this country for having wiser political sense than Americans as a whole demonstrated in 2016.

  6. Every time George Soros is mentioned by the MAGA crowd it is meant as an anti-semitic slur. Using him as a replacement for “zionists” or “jewish banking conspiracy”. “Globalist” is used in the same way. Its meant to be recycle antisemitic conspiracy theories.

    Trump doesn’t care about Israel or Jews. Just appealing to his backhanded anti-semitic Evangelical base. One which wants Israel to fit their eschatological narratives, but not its Jewish residents. Trump actively courts blatant antisemitic neo-nazis as his base (“the alt right”)
    Trump has been ignoring (and encouraging) far right violence by blaming “leftist mobs” for their murderous rampages. Trump is also the son of a Klan leader. He accepted Jared Kushner because greed and a rich family are more important to him than anything else.

    Bowers simply took that nonsense to its extreme point.

  7. “Globalist” equals “Jewish Conspiracy”? Not in any Conservative circles I move in, you won’t find anything like that at Breitbart (one of the most pro-Israel sites on the internet), the National Review (before they closed their comment section to non-subscribers and I stopped reading them), the Weekly Standard, or any other mainstream Conservative site of national repute that I’ve seen. On all those sites, it isn’t “Soros the Jew,” it’s “Soros the Leftist rich man using his wealth to try to advance his ideology.” Which he as the right to do. Bowers’ murders have nothing to do with Trump, or with modern Conservatism.

    But all this is just in response to your ducking the question. So to repeat my challenge, point to one anti-Semitic statement that Trump has made, and do you think the citizens of Israel believe he is anti-Semitic?

  8. So one cannot criticize Soros without necessarily being anti-semitic. That is just plain irrational.

  9. Not the way you guys typically do. Turning him into an all purpose Jewish boogeyman. Just like what this shooter did.

    Let’s face it, 99.999% of the times he is invoked, its for anti Semitic conspiracy theory mongering

  10. Speaking of the shooter. the shooter says that Trump is the enemy of all white people.

    Do you agree or disagree with the shooter, Spuddie?

  11. You are being disingenuous. It is exactly what is done at Breitbart. Breitbart is in bed with neo nazis. Steve Bannon is unambiguous about his connection to them. You are giving me cheap denial.

    They aren’t even pro Israel beyond evangelical eschatological needs.

  12. I’m sure if Breitbart is so anti-Semitic, evangelical, and “in bed with neo-Nazis,” you’ll have no problem providing plenty of examples. I check out the site regularly, and the writers there are very pro-freedom (both of speech and religion), pro-US, anti-racist, and pro-Israel. That doesn’t sound very “neo-Nazi”-ish to me. These day, the mainstream racism I’ve been seeing is on the Left.

  13. GTHO of here with your cheap denial. Steven Bannon is an admitted white supremacist. Breitbart appeals to them unambiguously. He is currently trying to get support with European neo Nazis.

    Every time you mention “leftist mobs” after white suprrmacists run amok, you support this garbage. The whole “Soros supported caravan” is anti Semitic screeds being bandied about.

  14. Got it, you can’t back up your assertions so all you can do is emote. Have fun with your echo chamber.

  15. Here are my Thoughts & Prayers:

    Let’s all just mutually hate Robert Bowers for what he did, but for once leave Trump out of it, yeah? AMEN.

    “Bowers’s posts indicate he was … anti-President Donald Trump. ‘Trump is a globalist, not a nationalist,’ Bowers wrote. ‘There is no #MAGA as long as there is a k*ke infestation.’ In another post, Bowers wrote of the president: ‘For the record, I did not vote for him nor have I owned, worn or even touched a maga hat.'”

    Source: Jessica Kwong, “Who Is Robert Bowers? Suspect Identified in Pittsburgh Tree of Life Synagogue Shooting”, Newsweek, October 27, 2018.

  16. I wonder how much the following has contributed to the antisemitism that’s in the world today —

    1Thessalonians 2:14-16 —
    14 …You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews,
    15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men,
    16 hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them

    Acts 14:19 —
    Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead.

    The Bible has many axes to grind. In several ways, it scorns Jews, gays, unbelievers, rich people, tatoo wearers and heaven knows what else. Paul made up for his scornful narratives, no matter how true or false, by prophetically declaring the following —

    First, we should know that Jesus prayed…..thy kingdom come, thy will be done…
    Paul helps describe that Kingdom —
    The Kingdom of God is not in word (Bibles, sermons) but power (the Spirit of God at work today)…………1 Cor 4:20
    …it’s not food and drink but righteousness (loving attitudes, works and deeds towards others) and living with peace and joy in the Holy Spirit…….Rom 14:17
    If you serve God with this attitude, you will please Him, and others will approve of you, too………..Rom 14:18

    Our best hope for a world dominated by loving attitudes will be found in…thy kingdom come, thy will be done… We have to wait and see what they’re going to be like.

  17. In Pittsburgh, Israel’s Ambassador Ron Dermer told MSNBC that, regarding the growing problem of anti-Semitism:

    “I’m not aware of a single non-Israeli leader who has made a stronger statement condemning anti-Semitism than President Trump.”

    (As proof, Dermer quoted Trump’s rally statement of the previous night or so, “Those who seek to destroy the Jewish people, we will destroy them.”)

  18. Of course, Jesus, the twelve apostles, and the apostle Paul were all Jewish. And that’s on top of God loving the entire world (John 3:16) ;

    So this claim about the Bible scorning Jews (or anybody else) gets real deflated real fast. It’s just too easy to find Bible verses that say differently.

    (1 Cor. 6:11 makes clear, for example, that Jesus doesn’t scorn gays. Instead He transforms and delivers them. You don’t hafta be gay, if you don’t wanna be gay.)

  19. Stop covering for the obvious neo-nazi murderer who was inspired by Republican talking points.

    So what did we think would happen when this powerful voice tells the world that there are “good” people on the side of white supremacy? We’ve seen his acolytes whipped into a protester-punching frenzy at his command. He literally told us that his followers wouldn’t care if he committed murder. It was not a metaphor for murder, so how the hell can we be surprised when there is a murder or two… or 11?

    Scumbag apologists only embolden this kind of action by dishonestly deflecting blame to others,

  20. Trump actively neo-nazis (as do you, by supporting him.)

    If you lay down with neo-Nazis (including hiring them as advisers), you get anti-semitism and attacks on Jews. If, according to Trump, the Democrats are ruining America, then a serial bomber would, using Trump logic, be a hero savior.

    No one should be surprised that any of this happened. We should be shocked, given Trump’s rhetoric and his reach, that it doesn’t happen more often.

  21. You are either the most naive/ignorant person out there or just a dishonest troll.

    “Bannon once described Breitbart News in an interview with the Investigative Fund as the “platform for the alt-right,”

    “Alt right” is just neo-nazi with a new name. By all means try to pretend that group isn’t deeply anti-semitic or averse to murder.

    They even came out unambiguously in support of them in their own site
    “The alt-right is here, and here to stay.”

    You can get bent with your cheap denials here.

  22. Way to quote mine. Typical lying apologist.

    So why did he say that? Use the WHOLE quote, liar.

    Because Trump wasn’t doing enough to eradicate Jews and racial minorities like yourself.

    So when did you realize you had so much in common with a neo-nazi mass murderer?

  23. You still haven’t backed up your assertions. Where are the Breitbart articles that are “anti-Semitic, evangelical, and ‘in bed with neo-Nazis’ ” that I requested before? I’ve been reading articles at Breitbart for years and find the site anti-racist in general and pro-Israel specifically. If the alt-right is all about racism, then Breitbart isn’t part of the alt-right.

  24. You didn’t bother to read what I posted and the numerous examples of outside support. I just posted an article by Breitbart standing up for neo-nazis who have taken to calling themselves “the alt-right”.
    You are just being thickheaded here.

    “Breitbart for years and find the site anti-racist in general and pro-Israel specifically.”

    Bull ____ing s__t

    They had an entire section devoted to racist fearmongering called “Black Crime”. They frequently post the “anti-globalist” and “George Soros is ___” nonsense which is entirely meant to appeal to Anti-Semites. Ones which were picked up on by the shooter here. He had no problem connecting the dots between the dogwhistle anti-semitic appeals and justfying mass murder of Jews.

    Again, posting pro-Israel material is not a refutation of anti-semitism. Especially since such views have to do with Christian end times thinking (which is dismissive of Jews as people or a religion).


  25. In the years that I’ve been reading Breitbart, it never had a section devoted to Black crime. If you want to prove Farrakhan is a bigot you don’t need to point to what his enemies have to say about him, or even what his friends have to say about him–you can point to what the man says himself. So one more time, where are the Breitbart articles that are “anti-Semitic, evangelical, and ‘in bed with neo-Nazis’ “?

  26. Well for years, you have been supporting a platform for Neo-nazis AS ADMITTED TO BY ITS CHIEF.

    What can I tell you there? When I give you evidence, you ignore it. You are clearly not interested in discussing the subject rationally.

    You clearly do not want to believe what is plainly obvious from all others looking at the site and quoting its own people.

    Your opinion does not appear to be supported by anything resembling facts here.

    There is nothing left to discuss.

  27. Don’t agree with you on some things, but I do on this one. When you’re right, you’re right!

  28. Like I said, if you can’t back up your claims, all you can do is emote. And since you can’t provide any actual examples of anti-Semitic Breitbart articles to back up your claims, you’re right, there’s nothing left to discuss. Enjoy your echo chamber.

  29. I backed up my claims several times. You are unwilling to read or even address it. You are trying to weaselword and equivocate your way out of what is plainly obvious and well documented here.

    Even the victims of the shooting know where to lay the blame here.
    “For the past three years your [Trump’s] words and your policies have emboldened a growing white nationalist movement. You yourself called the murderer evil, but yesterday’s violence is the direct culmination of your influence.”

  30. It is not a Republican or a Democrat it was a crazy, he did not like Trump because of his Jewish daughter and grandkids. Your hate post will encourage more acts of violence.

  31. Wrong.

    This was a man who was taking conservative, more specifically, Republican talking points (the Refugee Caravan, Soros, MAGA, White supremacy…) and acting on them for a murderous rampage.

    Trump fueled this kind of hate. He courted neo-nazis. Ran cover for them, blaming “left wing mobs” for their murderous violent actions, the dehumanizing language against immigrants, the repeating of anti-semitic “Soros conspiracy” mongering

    This guy wanted Trump to be more like what he says as opposed to how he acts. Trump may not be a white supremacist, but white supremacists think he is one of their own.

    All you are doing is making excuses and trying to normalize the white supremacist hate Trump has relied on. By deliberately ignoring it. You are part of the problem. If you aren’t going to address the extreme right wing views becoming the norm among conservatives, your opinion on this issue are worthless deflecting garbage. Stuff guaranteed to encourage more of it.

    ” Your hate post will encourage more acts of violence.”

    Up yours. It is not hate speech to call out and draw attention to a problem. The right wing murdering terrorists don’t need excuses for more acts of violence. Republicans are enabling them. Shielding them from responsibility. This deserves righteous anger.

  32. The rabbi is being polite and optimistic. He has to be under the circumstances.

    You have been playing avoidance games and avoiding the obvious. Republicans have thrown their lot in with neo-nazis. They aren’t even bothering to hide it



    “How do you call Steve King anti-Semitic?” he asked, just before giving a speech supporting gun rights at a dinner celebrating the first day of pheasant hunting season in the western Iowa town of Akron.

    He said the groups he’s associated with that are criticized as having neo-Nazi views were more accurately “far right” groups. He specifically cited Austria’s Freedom Party, which was founded by a former Nazi SS officer and is led by Heinz-Christian Strache, who was active in neo-Nazi circles as a youth. The group has emphasized a hard-line anti-immigration stance even as it seeks to distance itself from the Nazi connections.

    “If they were in America pushing the platform that they push, they would be Republicans,” King said.

  33. You’re ducking the challenge again. Anti-Semitic, pro-neo-Nazi Breitbart articles. Put up or shut up.

  34. I already gave you one where they come in defense of the alt right. The alt right are neo-nazis. You are being dishonest and dense. You have nothing here but cheap denial.

    You have to live with yourself here.

    Your views, those who you support, have so much more in common with this vile mass murderer than I or any liberal would be. If you don’t like that, then you should reflect on what people you support really say.

    Don’t bother me with your lying apologia for this crap.

  35. So once again, no articles espousing anti-Semitic or neo-Nazi views. So I guess since you can’t put up we’ll go with the shut up.

  36. So once again, already did several posts ago. You are just being thickheaded. Here it is for the second time
    The article is a wave of excuses why neo-nazis should be welcomed by mainstream conservatives.
    “The alt-right is here, and here to stay.”

    Face it, you support neo-nazis and the murderers who follow their rhetoric. You are simply just a terrible person. Sorry to hear that.

  37. You really should have read your article. Here’s what it has to say about the serious neo-Nazis, what it refers to as the 1488’ers. It isn’t exactly approving:

    Anything associated as closely with racism and bigotry as the alternative right will inevitably attract real racists and bigots. Calmer members of the alternative right refer darkly to these people as the “1488ers,” and for all their talk of there being “no enemies to the right,” it’s clear from the many conversations we’ve had with alt-righters that many would rather the 1488ers didn’t exist.

    These are the people that the alt-right’s opponents wish constituted the entire movement. They’re less concerned with the welfare of their own tribe than their fantasies of destroying others. 1488ers would likely denounce this article as the product of a degenerate homosexual and an ethnic mongrel.

    Why “1488”? It’s a reference to two well-known Neo Nazi slogans, the first being the so-called 14 Words: “We Must Secure The Existence Of Our People And A Future For White Children.” The second part of the number, 88, is a reference to the 8th letter of the alphabet – H. Thus, “88” becomes “HH” which becomes “Heil Hitler.”

    Not very edifying stuff. But if you want to use the 1488ers to tarnish the entire alt-right, you need to do the same with Islamist killers and Islam and third-wave feminist wackos with the entire history and purpose of feminism. Which you might well be fine with — but let’s be consistent.

    Alt-right vlogger Paul “RamZPaul” Ramsey describes them as “LARPers” or Live-Action Role Players: a disparaging comparison to nerdy nostalgists who dress up as medieval warriors. Paul even goes as far as to suggest some in this “toxic mix of kooks and ex-cons” may be there solely to discredit the more reasonable white identitarians.

    Every ideology has them. Humourless ideologues who have no lives beyond their political crusade, and live for the destruction of the great. They can be found on Stormfront and other sites, not just joking about the race war, but eagerly planning it. They are known as “Stormfags” by the rest of the internet.

    Based on our research we believe this stands in stark contrast with the rest of the alt-right, who focus more on building communities and lifestyles based around their values than plotting violent revolution.

    1488ers are the equivalent of the Black Lives Matter supporters who call for the deaths of policemen, or feminists who unironically want to #KillAllMen. Of course, the difference is that while the media pretend the latter are either non-existent, or a tiny extremist minority, they consider 1488ers to constitute the whole of the alt-right.

    Those looking for Nazis under the bed can rest assured that they do exist. On the other hand, there’s just not very many of them, no-one really likes them, and they’re unlikely to achieve anything significant in the alt-right.

    What little remains of old-school white supremacy and the KKK in America constitutes a tiny, irrelevant contingent with no purchase on public life and no support even from what the media would call the “far-Right.” (Admittedly, these days that includes anyone who votes Republican.)

  38. “Your hate post will encourage more acts of violence.”

    One might almost call it the product of a “neo-nazi stooge.” ROFL!

  39. Yeah, the article is loaded with a lot of excuses in its attempts to normalize white supremacists (neo-nazis) and minimize their growing presence within what is left of mainstream conservatives through spin.

    Its blatantly dishonest in an obvious way. None of its assertions can be taken at face value. Most of all the equating of neo-nazis with BLM and mythical radical man exterminating feminists from your excerpt.

    It is a perfect example of how conservatives are trying to rationalize acceptance of white supremacy as a main political platform.

    The Alt Right ARE neo-nazis at their core. Trump’s courting of them is obvious. These are the same people who Robert Bowers identified with and whose views he acted on.

    Thanks for making that abundantly clear.

  40. I do not hate, your post suggest that you do. I marched in the civil right marches as a youth, I went to a Jewish collage, and I usually vote Republican because of the plight of the intercity blacks, Hate has no justification including yours,

  41. It is a left wing radical that shot the Republican congressman practicing for a charity ball game. I do not blame all Democrats for that act. I do not care for Trumps rants I did not vote fore him. I am a concretive because I think it is the best way to help the most people. Please stop the hate.

  42. I’m afraid you misunderstand me.

    Ms Spud is the stooge to which I refer. But to understand that you would have to be familiar with her previous screeds about people who are “Isis stooges” because they are not hesitant to address Islamic terrorism.

  43. Some right-wingers are anti-Semitic, as you have shown; others are pro-Israel: still others, like the shooter, appear to be barking mad.

  44. The three are not mutually exclusive.

    Even the Pro Israel part is backhanded. It’s pro Likud and anti democratic. It’s “make sure they keep the lights on when the messiah comes” support.

    Israelis are some of the harshest critics Trump and American conservatives these days.

  45. So the article you’ve linked to in support of your position does so, so long as you ignore everything it says. Got it.

  46. I linked to both articles. You took one at face value which was a crap op ed piece, you ignored the researched news item.

    Your judgment is clearly impaired and cannot be trusted.

    Breitbart is the admitted platform of neo nazis by its own leadership. You are OK with being in the same group as them. You are willing to accept lame excuses for such an association. You have nothing of value to say on this anymore.

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