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At Vatican summit, talk of destroyed files riles bishops’ critics

Sex abuse survivors and members of the group Ending Clergy Abuse march in downtown Rome on Feb. 23, 2019. Pope Francis hosted a four-day summit on preventing clergy sexual abuse, a high-stakes meeting designed to impress on Catholic bishops around the world that the problem is global and that there are consequences if they cover it up. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

VATICAN CITY (RNS) — On a day packed with emotion and unusually direct criticism of the Catholic Church hierarchy, victims of church abuse responded sharply to an admission by a German cardinal that the church has destroyed files documenting sexual abuse abuse by its priests.

“Files that could have documented the terrible deeds and named those responsible were destroyed, or not even created,” Cardinal Reinhard Marx, archbishop of Munich and Freising, told the more than 190 church leaders gathered at the Vatican’s synod on clergy abuse.

The vague disclosure on the third day of the Vatican’s summit on sex abuse, the theme of which was transparency, infuriated advocates for abuse victims, who marched through the streets of Rome shortly after Marx’s talk demanding the church adopt a firm zero tolerance policy toward abuse and abusers.

Demonstrators waved signs reading “Secular justice for all!” as they processed, chanting “No more abuse!” and “Justice now!”

Cardinal Reinhard Marx leaves a media briefing Saturday in Rome during a four-day sex abuse summit called by Pope Francis. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

The march, which had been planned before Marx’s speech, concluded with a rally at Castel Sant’Angelo, a former papal fortress, now a museum, where more than one survivor responded to Marx’s admission while speaking to press.

“We were told today that archives have been destroyed by the Vatican. But the evidence cannot be destroyed,” said Polish abuse survivor Ania Frankowska, gesturing to her fellow abuse survivors.

“The Vatican may destroy documents, may restrict our access for justice, but … we are the evidence of the abuse.”

Marx later walked the line back slightly in speaking to journalists, explaining he was not referring to the entire church per se, but rather to a recently revealed study of German dioceses that did not name specific leaders or institutions but claimed church documents regarding allegations of sexual abuse were destroyed.

Still, he did not rule out that the practice could occur elsewhere.

“I have information concerning Germany, but I assume (Germany) is not an isolated case, ” he said, according to a Vatican translator.

Challenges to the Vatican’s status quo were the order of the day inside the assembly hall as well, including from Marx. He called for the publication of statistics about abuse cases and argued that a transparent process for investigating abusers would only help the church.

Ania Frankowska speaks at a rally for sexual abuse survivors at Castel Sant’Angelo in Rome, just outside the Vatican. Image RNS photo by Jack Jenkins

Marx also touched on pontifical secrecy, a code of confidentiality that pervades the church, saying that he sees “no such reason” why it should apply to the criminal prosecution of clerics who abuse children.

“It is necessary to redefine confidentiality and secrecy, and to distinguish them from data protection,” he said.

Another strongly worded address came from Sister Veronica Openibo, a Nigerian nun and leader of the Society of the Holy Child Jesus. She began the Saturday session with a speech on “openness” that derided what she called the church’s “mediocrity, hypocrisy and complacency” that led to the abuse crisis.

“We pause to pray, ‘Lord, have mercy on us!’” she said.

She cited Pope Francis’ own evolution on sex abuse in the church in Chile. Last year Francis initially defended a bishop accused of shielding a pedophile priest before changing course eventually and accepting the resignations of three Chilean bishops. The nun pointed to the turnabout as an illustration of positive transformation regarding abuse.

“I admire you, Brother Francis, for taking time as a true Jesuit, to discern and be humble enough to change your mind, to apologize and take action,” Openibo said. “This is an example for all of us.”

Openibo also addressed an ongoing debate at the summit about how pertinent abuse reform is to clerics in non-Western nations. Like others, she said, she has heard church leaders in Africa and Asia dismiss sex abuse as only a problem elsewhere. She noted that her experience teaching about sexuality in Nigeria for several years implied otherwise and said reform was no less pressing because those nations face other problems.

“The fact that there are huge issues of poverty, illness, war and violence in some countries in the Global South does not mean that the area of sexual abuse should be downplayed or ignored,” she said.

The Rev. Federico Lombardi, a Jesuit priest and former director of the Holy See’s press office, told reporters later that Openibo’s address impressed Pope Francis, who reportedly called it “very effective.”

Speaking at a news conference later in the day, Openibo expressed hope that the summit would produce change: “Thank God, I’m just trying to say to you, that something happened in that hall.”

Sister Veronica Openibo, a Nigerian nun and leader of the Society of the Holy Child Jesus, speaks to reporters at the Vatican. RNS photo by Jack Jenkins

Perhaps the most uncompromising statements came in the final presentation of the day, by Valentina Alazraki, a journalist who has covered the Vatican for Mexican outlet Noticieros Televisa since 1974. Her presence was a tangible reminder of the role journalists have played in uncovering the Catholic sex abuse scandal, dating back at least to The Boston Globe’s 2002 “Spotlight” report detailing allegations of widespread cover-up of abuse in that city.

Alazraki’s speech, which she said emerged from her experiences as a journalist and as a mother, included a series of frank challenges to the bishops.

“Ask yourselves: Are you enemies, as determined as we are, of those who commit abuse or who cover them up?” Alazraki asked. “We have decided which side to be on. Have you done so truly, or in word alone?”

Alazraki dismissed any claim that the media can be blamed for the abuse scandal. She implored church officials to provide information about abuse first “in a proactive and not reactive way, as normally happens,” adding, “Report things when you know them.”

Alazraki pushed back on leaders who respond to scandals with silence or “no comment,” saying, “Then we will seek answers by asking others, and thus it will be third parties informing people in the way they wish to do so.”

She also said in no uncertain terms that failure to act on the sex abuse will only increase scrutiny from the media.

“If you do not decide in a radical way to be on the side of the children, mothers, families, civil society, you are right to be afraid of us, because we journalists, who seek the common good, will be your worst enemies,” she said.

She closed by inviting bishops when they return home to seek out journalists instead of avoiding them.

“(I hope) that you will return to your dioceses thinking that we are not vicious wolves, but, on the contrary, that we can join our forces against the real wolves,” Alazraki said.

As she finished, journalists watching a livestream of her remarks in the Vatican press office burst into applause — twice.

A survivor of sex abuse, who wished to remain unidentified, background right, plays violin Feb. 23, 2019, after he delivered his testimony during a penitential liturgy attended by Pope Francis at the Vatican. (Vincenzo Pinto/Pool Photo Via AP)

The theme of humbling the powerful extended into the evening’s worship service, which was framed as a “penitential liturgy.” Archbishop Philip Naameh of Tamale, Ghana, delivered the homily, in which he invoked the parable of the prodigal son, saying bishops often “forget to apply this Scripture to ourselves, to see ourselves as we are: namely, as prodigal sons.”

He described the summit as “only one step of many” and suggested there is still much left to do — and much to ask forgiveness for.

“Do we do justice to what is entrusted to us?” he said. “We will not be able to answer this question with a sincere yes. Beyond all doubts, too often we have kept quiet, looked the other way, avoided conflicts.”

To drive the point home, the service also included the unscheduled testimony of an abuse survivor.

The survivor, standing in a sanctuary filled with a host of bishops and the pope himself, described the harrowing toll abuse can take on a person, leaving victims with “no day without flashbacks.”

The unnamed survivor then walked over, picked up a violin and played a haunting, sorrowful tune before the assembly.

About the author

Jack Jenkins

Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for RNS based in Washington, covering U.S. Catholics and the intersection of religion and politics.

79 Comments

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  • Have to give Francis and the Summit organizers credit. They are actually adding some drama to their “Talk Is Cheap” show. But that doesn’t change the fact that over and over again the Church has proved that talk is cheap and will continue to do so.

  • “The vague disclosure on the third day of the Vatican’s summit on sex abuse, the theme of which was transparency, infuriated advocates for abuse victims, who marched through the streets of Rome shortly after Marx’s talk demanding the church adopt a firm zero tolerance policytoward abuse and abusers.”

    It should not have infuriated anyone.

    Anyone could buy or borrow a Code of Canon Law from 1983 forward (similar provision was made in the 1917 Codification) and read that once a decision was reached by a tribunal, all the files were destroyed and the final judgment was preserved.

    This protected the confidentiality of all involved, including witnesses and victims, and ensured that the Secret Police or some other governmental body didn’t seize them for purposes for which they were not intended.

  • Well I think we all suspected that records were destroyed. It’s just another hashmark in the column of how far gone the clergy have become. Now it’s come to the point where I defy anyone to list ONE good thing the clergy/RCC has done in the last two decades. Diogenes can blow out his lantern and go home, there are no honest men left.

  • There was no reason to suspect the records were destroyed.

    Canon Law specifies that after a tribunal has reached its judgment, the judgment be preserved and the various evidence be destroyed and has for many years.

  • “Files that could have documented the terrible deeds and named those responsible were destroyed, or not even created,” Cardinal Reinhard Marx, archbishop of Munich and Freising, told the more than 190 church leaders gathered at the Vatican’s synod on clergy abuse.

    Stop the BS, for once. There were no “tribunals”. Even when the bishops admit culpability, you’re there to convince them of alternate facts. Do you have any moral sense at all?

  • Stop the BS for once. You purport to have been in the seminary, but feign ignorance of all the church tribunals; marriage tribunals, the tribunal which stripped McCarrick of his clerical status, the ones which booted priests out fo the ministry for various reasons, and on, and on, and on.

    http://www{DOT}ahereford.org/canonlaw/doku.php?id=book7

    Put a large sock in it. You’ve proven yourself an unbalanced flake and fake.

  • When the Pope apologizes, you will be there to tell him to stop the BS and shove a sock in his mouth. Jesus must be so proud.

  • You still lack all comprehension of child sex abuse being a heinous crime. No church tribunal suffices to deal with that reality. There’s a reason the Pope called the bishops and cardinals to Rome.

  • You still don’t realize that with every post you make it clearer that the limit of your knowledge about Catholicism is how to spell C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C.

    The reason the Pope called the bishops to Rome, instead of allowing them to take action in 2018, was his usual one.

  • Past is not always prologue……….but that’s the way to bet. 😉

    One hopes this time IS different, for the sakes of those victimized.

  • LOOK WHO’S TALKING. “Files that could have documented the terrible deeds and named those responsible were destroyed, or not even created”?! SEZ WHO? “Cardinal Reinhard Marx, archbishop of Munich and Freising”?! YA MEAN DIS SAME-SAME DUDE?

    –> “Kardinal Marx wusste von Ermittlungen gegen Pfarrer [Cardinal Marx Knew About Investigations Against Priests]”, Focus, August 16, 2016.

    –> “Allegations against Marx for dealing with abuse cases: Cardinal Marx is in a ten-year suspected case of sexual abuse of a minor by a priest in the diocese of Trier in the criticism: Marx was then Bishop of Trier”, Katholische(dot)de, August 17, 2016.

    –> “Papal Advisor [Reinhard Marx] Under Fire for Negligence on Sexual Abuse”, One Peter 5, August 18, 2016, by Maike Hickson.

    –> “Cardinal Marx faces accusations over handling of alleged abuse case”, Catholic News Agency, August 19, 2016, by Anian Christoph Wimmer.

    –> “Cardinal Marx Finally Admits His Own Negligences in Abuse Cases”, One Peter 5, May 8, 2017, by Maike Hickson.

  • In many countries/jurisdictions, clergy are mandated reporters of reasonable suspicion of child abuse. Destroying records or deliberately refusing to create them, while failing to properly notify secular authorities compounds moral failure and legal failure. No church code justifies that practice.

  • WANNA KNOW WHY R.N.S. had a sudden change of heart about this Marx guy after reporting this news on October 23, 2013? “Chastised for lavish expenditures … Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Munich’s archdiocese spent around $11 million renovating the archbishop’s residence and another $13 million for a guesthouse in Rome.” GO FIGURE from these quotes of the guy by RNS ever since!

    (1) October 17, 2014: “For me it is unthinkable to say that a homosexual person cannot live with the gospel. Everyone who is in particular situations should be welcomed. Excluding someone is not part of church tradition.”

    (2) March 27, 2015: “One simply cannot say that a faithful homosexual relationship that has held for decades is nothing. We just mustn’t lump things together and measure everything with the same yardstick, but must differentiate and take a closer look”.

    (3) February 15, 2017: “‘We support the pope and we are together with him”.

    (4) February 5, 2018: “Concerning homosexuals, we must be pastorally closer to those who need or want pastoral care. Here, I think, we should also encourage priests and pastoral workers to give people in concrete situations some encouragement. I don’t see any problems there. [But] I have to leave it up to the pastoral worker on the spot who is accompanying the person there.”

    STILL NOT GETTING IT YET? Here, I’ll spell it for you. L. G. B. T.

  • So have all these heroes & idols of yours “proved” likewise:

    Frédéric Martel (LGBT)
    Jussie Smollett (LGBT)
    Ed Buck (LGBT)
    Kevin Spacey (Gay)
    Alex McGillis (Gay)
    Terry Bean (LGBT)
    Ed Murray (Gay)
    Kamala Harris (Dem)
    Goodloe Sutton (Pro-Dem)
    Ralph Northam (Dem)
    Mark Herring (Dem)
    Elizabeth Warren (Dem)
    Justin Fairfax (Dem)
    Neil deGrasse Tyson (Agnostic)
    David Silverman (Atheist)
    Lawrence Krauss (Atheist)
    Al Franken (Atheist & Dem)

  • Marx said, “Files that could have documented the terrible deeds and named those responsible were destroyed, or not even created” – and you just believe him?! But you haven’t vetted him yet, have you?!

  • From Wikipedia:

    “During the 2015 Synod on the family, Marx faced opposition from other bishops for supporting Cardinal Kasper’s proposal that the rules be relaxed to allow divorced and remarried couples to receive Holy Communion. Divisions were particularly acute between the group of bishops from Germany and conservatives such as Cardinal George Pell of Sydney. Marx accused Pell of trying to foster division by making it seem as if there were two camps within the Church, one around Pope Benedict XVI and the other around Cardinal Kasper. A spokesman for Pell welcomed the suggestion that Marx saw no differences between the two groups.”

    “Cardinal Marx was indirectly criticized by retired Pope Benedict in a 2016 book of interviews with him. The occasion was related to how, shortly before Benedict’s resignation in 2013, Marx had criticized him by saying he had turned the Roman curia into his own court. In response to this, Benedict said ‘I have always lived simply, always, ever since my childhood.’ The retired Pope’s personal secretary Georg Gänswein also stated ‘One should be careful of making statements or valuations of a situation that one does not know well.’”

  • At least that’s NOT like UNFALSELY accusing YOU, “Oh look, yet another apologist for”:

    Frédéric Martel (LGBT)
    Jussie Smollett (LGBT)
    Ed Buck (LGBT)
    Kevin Spacey (Gay)
    Alex McGillis (Gay)
    Terry Bean (LGBT)
    Ed Murray (Gay)
    Kamala Harris (Dem)
    Goodloe Sutton (Pro-Dem)
    Ralph Northam (Dem)
    Mark Herring (Dem)
    Elizabeth Warren (Dem)
    Justin Fairfax (Dem)
    Neil deGrasse Tyson (Agnostic)
    David Silverman (Atheist)
    Lawrence Krauss (Atheist)
    Al Franken (Atheist & Dem)

  • It is very sad that these victims will never receive any justice or see a change in the Church. The bishops and cardinals seem very insistent on not addressing the problems within the church.

  • Marx has been puffed up by every outlet that advocates revolution in the Catholic Church.

    The underlying reason for Marx’s approach is that in Germany a tax is levied and distributed to churches.

    Catholics have been officially exiting reducing the Church’s income, which impacts Marx directly in the pocket book.

    As a result he has been trying to peddle intercommunion with other churches, communion for the divorced and unlawfully remarried, and so on to reduce the financial drain. I have been unable to find any actual theological basis for his proposals. His spiel was that “Saying that the doctrine will never change is a restrictive view of things …”.

    Speaking of the Cardinal, Archbishop Jan Paul Lenga of Karaganda, Kazakhstan said “There was Marx, Karl Marx. And if present Marx says similar things, then there is no real difference.”

  • You’re desperate to bait-and-switch. The fact remains that no matter how bad your clergy sex abuse problem is, you’re going to minimize and deny it. Perverts!

  • Never happened in my case. There was never a “tribunal”. The diocese produced all kinds of documents after I went public. Didn’t do them much good, as my abuser confessed publicly.

  • “Nuts”?! No, I wouldn’t call you that for what you’ve been saying about yourself (I kinda respect you, actually):

    “Etranger … a day ago [to] 6 months ago … 30 years ago … I was in catholic school … having been forced into religion without my choice by virtue of being baptised as an infant and then sent to Catholic school … I was religious for 20 years. … I was catholic for the first 20 years of my life. Catholic school, daily communicant. Very knowledgeable about Catholicism. … I had the benefit (Ha!) of a good Catholic School education and even two years of seminary (ugh). … [But] I left … the RCC … 23 years ago … because I’m a self-respecting kind of gay. … I have been gay my entire life and it actually DOES shape my being and views and defines my life. … I met so many good friends through online dating. And my partner of 15 years…yeah…sad and shallow I guess LOL … I have many acquaintances but often do not develop deeper relationships. Over the past two years I have made an effort to invite people over more to get to know them more personally and development that support network we all need. … Prayer [on the other hand] is more often than not a zero sum game. I figured that out 25 years and fortunately have not succumbed to it since. … Are there times [though] where we are just in a negative state of mind and simply thinking positive thoughts can help get us out? Sure. But to pretend that this cures all forms of depression or even being in a funk is outrageous and dangerous. … I remember a therapist I had advising me to focus on what I was feeling when I would go through periods of depression … and try to figure out what I can learn about my life and coping during those periods. It helped enormously – it made me feel more in control and able to recognize that often depression is just a part of life.”

  • Good dodge of the issue. I see you can copy and paste. It is neat to reread intelligent comments though- so glad you thought they were worth keeping!!!

  • Right, there’s that other Marx – LOL. I guess the shorthand for this saying is N/A here: “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.”

    Then again …

    I guess for me the scariest thing this cardinal guy has ever admitted to was February 15, 2017: “We support the pope and we are together with him”.

    Sounds like a Soft Coup has been going on for sometime now at the Vatican. And all we’re seeing now are mere skirmishes.

    INCOMING. DUCK.

    (Oops sorry. Shouldn’t be texting at a golf course, my Bahamas tour guide just advised me. To which I said, You not a Catholic, then?)

  • Whatabout is your middle name; so’s mine.

    ERGO: CanisWhataboutPulchrae vs HpWhataboutO. 14 rounds still to go at it, you & me.

  • I think what you’re actually exhibiting is:

    – a lack of resolution on an unpleasant event in your life;

    – a need for some professional assistance resolving it and moving on;

    – the source of your anti-Catholicism.

    Of course I am sorry if you’re in pain, but your current approach is not helping it any.

  • Holding the Church accountable is my approach. Denying, minimizing and avoiding accountability is your approach. You’re the one who needs the help here. You lack the courage to face the truth.

  • “Holding the Church accountable is my approach.”

    One yahoo in a discussion group does not hold the Church accountable.

    You, alwayspuzzled, and the other naysayers and negative nellies accomplish nothing because – frankly – no one in his right mind would listen to that sort of ranting.

    SNAP degenerated into the same noise.

    The National Catholic Reporter is similarly filled with nittering nabobs of negativism, in that case mostly superannuated, that no one but their readership listens to.

    You are, of course, kidding yourself.

  • Not interesting in your whining.

    And choosing to taunt survivors is un-Christian, inhumane, immoral and unethical. Just in case you unaware.

  • Not interest in YOUR whining.

    You’re not being taunted.

    You’re being given the straight scoop and the same old advice” get professional help.

  • No, YOU “try to stay on topic”! “The subject is [NOT] Catholic clergy sex abuse and its cover-up” – BUT (per the headline) Cardinal Reinhard Marx’s “talk of destroyed files ril[ing] bishops’ critics” – being hypocritical, BECAUSE:

    (1) “Kardinal Marx wusste von Ermittlungen gegen Pfarrer [Cardinal Marx Knew About Investigations Against Priests]”, Focus, August 16, 2016.

    (2) “Allegations against Marx for dealing with abuse cases: Cardinal Marx is in a ten-year suspected case of sexual abuse of a minor by a priest in the diocese of Trier in the criticism: Marx was then Bishop of Trier”, Katholische(dot)de, August 17, 2016.

    (3) “Papal Advisor [Reinhard Marx] Under Fire for Negligence on Sexual Abuse”, One Peter 5, August 18, 2016, by Maike Hickson.

    (4) “Cardinal Marx faces accusations over handling of alleged abuse case”, Catholic News Agency, August 19, 2016, by Anian Christoph Wimmer.

    (5) “Cardinal Marx Finally Admits His Own Negligences in Abuse Cases”, One Peter 5, May 8, 2017, by Maike Hickson.

  • ESPECIALLY THIS SAME GUY IN J.J.’s HEADLINE, whose “talk of destroyed files riles bishops’ critics”!

    (1) “Kardinal Marx wusste von Ermittlungen gegen Pfarrer [Cardinal Marx Knew About Investigations Against Priests]”, Focus, August 16, 2016.

    (2) “Allegations against Marx for dealing with abuse cases: Cardinal Marx is in a ten-year suspected case of sexual abuse of a minor by a priest in the diocese of Trier in the criticism: Marx was then Bishop of Trier”, Katholische(dot)de, August 17, 2016.

    (3) “Papal Advisor [Reinhard Marx] Under Fire for Negligence on Sexual Abuse”, One Peter 5, August 18, 2016, by Maike Hickson.

    (4) “Cardinal Marx faces accusations over handling of alleged abuse case”, Catholic News Agency, August 19, 2016, by Anian Christoph Wimmer.

    (5) “Cardinal Marx Finally Admits His Own Negligences in Abuse Cases”, One Peter 5, May 8, 2017, by Maike Hickson.

  • Yup. State of the art journalism today: based on a mere claim, zillions of FakeNews™ have all been published!

  • I REST MY CASE.

    (For the record: “CanisPulchrae HpO 8 minutes ago: He probably did, which should indicate he is telling the truth here.”)

  • I’m not defending his behavior. I’m just saying that there is no reason to not believe what he claimed regarding the shredding of documents by bishops.

  • Truth to tell – psst-like – since January 2017 I had always been a born-again Christian friend of LGBTs & Atheists & Anti-Trumpers. Until, that is, they started to heap their hatred upon Christians, Conservatives, Pro-Trumps & Trump. No fair. Enough is enough. Made to choose side and gotta take sides, I’m now more transparent than ever. Heap your hatred upon me, too, I tell them now.

  • Are you saying that Cardinal Reinhard Marx, archbishop of Munich and Freising is a liar, particularly in the context of public statements at the abuse summit? This is a strong charge to make against a cardinal of the Church and one who is also a member of the C9 (formally the Council of Cardinals, advisors to the Pope).

  • Are you, like HpO, implying that Cardinal Reinhard Marx, archbishop of Munich and Freising is a liar or shockingly naive and ill-informed about the Church in Germany, in the context of his very public statements at the abuse summit? This is a strong charge to make against a cardinal of the Church and one who is also a member of the C9 (formally the Council of Cardinals, advisors to the Pope).

  • Remember, Theodore Cardinal McCarrick was a member of the Council of Cardinals and you see how that worked out.

    I’m not implying anything.

    I’m simply providing facts and observations, some from significant members of the Council of Cardinals and the hierarchy – including the German hierarchy – about Reinhard Cardinal Marx.

    At the very least it is bit difficult to square some of his comments with his own church’s teachings.

  • Theodore Cardinal McCarrick was a member of the Council of Cardinals and you see how that worked out.

    He seems to be providing facts and observations, some from significant members of the Council of Cardinals and the hierarchy – including the German hierarchy – about Reinhard Cardinal Marx.

    At the very least it is bit difficult to square some of his comments with his own church’s teachings.

  • As for the Church’s teachings, he seems to have the confidence of the Pope.

    As for similarities to Mr. McCarrick, the fall of Judas is not usually seen as casting aspersions on the rest of the Apostles. But if you think Cardinal Marx or any other C9 members should be reduced to the lay state for ecclesiastical and civil crimes, please say so.

    To the point, do you think Cardinal Marx is a liar, specifically in his claims about the German Church, about which he knows a great deal by virtue of his position and history? And if so, what evidence do you have of that.

  • Please see my comments above on this subject.

    To the point, do you believe Cardinal Marx lied, in a very public way no less, at the recent abuse summit, specifically about records? If so, what evidence do you have?

    And since you brought up Mr. McCarrick, do you believe Cardinal Marx is guilty of similar crimes?

    I find myself defending a high-ranking Catholic cardinal who has the confidence of the Pope. I am not in a position to defend or attack the Cardinal’s orthodoxy, but the Pope surely is.

  • “As for the Church’s teachings, he seems to have the confidence of the Pope.”

    Unlike the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints, who believe that Apostolic Revelation in Jesus Christ’s church is as ongoing as it was when Peter, Paul, and other apostles wrote the letters that eventually became the New Testament, the Catholic Church believes revelation concluded with the death of the last apostle.

    The Pope can reveal nothing new, nor change that which has been taught as revealed, and in fact can be a material heretic and entertain odd and eccentric views, and some have.

    The Pope has had full confidence in other people who have turned out to be complete pikers, so an endorsement by him does not constitute anything more than a personal preference.

    http://www{DOT}ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-unusually-isolated-in-chilean-priest-sex-abuse-scandal

    The comments about Theodore McCarrick simply illustrate that your citing Marx’s status as a cardinal as a sign of anything other than he is at the moment a cardinal is unsupported.

    I have not claimed that Marx is a liar.

    If you compare and contrast his statements with his church’s teachings and the facts on other matters, and conclude he may be lying, I won’t at the moment argue with you.

    There is no particular reason to believe he knows more about the German Church than the other German bishops.

  • “I am not in a position to defend or attack the Cardinal’s orthodoxy, but the Pope surely is.”

    This particular Pope has had tough sledding defending his own orthodoxy, and not just at the hands of Catholics.

    https://www{DOT}youtube.com/watch?v=WEchg1KhmTY

  • According to Rocco Palmo (in “Papa Ratzi’s Hometown Heir?”, Whispers in the Loggia, November 28, 2007), Papal Advisor Reinhard Marx has always put to good use his “reputation for mixing it up in the public square” and being “a whiz with the media”. And so at this summit, it was his “talk of destroyed files [that] riles bishops’ critics” – BUT NOT HIS OWN FILES ON RECORD:

    (1) “Kardinal Marx wusste von Ermittlungen gegen Pfarrer [Cardinal Marx Knew About Investigations Against Priests]”, Focus, August 16, 2016.

    (2) “Allegations against Marx for dealing with abuse cases: Cardinal Marx is in a ten-year suspected case of sexual abuse of a minor by a priest in the diocese of Trier in the criticism: Marx was then Bishop of Trier”, Katholische(dot)de, August 17, 2016.

    (3) “Papal Advisor [Reinhard Marx] Under Fire for Negligence on Sexual Abuse”, One Peter 5, August 18, 2016, by Maike Hickson.

    (4) “Cardinal Marx faces accusations over handling of alleged abuse case”, Catholic News Agency, August 19, 2016, by Anian Christoph Wimmer.

    (5) “Cardinal Marx Finally Admits His Own Negligences in Abuse Cases”, One Peter 5, May 8, 2017, by Maike Hickson.

  • LOOK WHO’S TALKING:

    PSICO’S WHATABOUTISM #1
    “PsiCop 5 months ago: Wait … what? Some former cardinals and some wealthy Catholics want to investigate all the current cardinals? WHAT ABOUT those ex-cardinals? Are they willing to have their own careers explored? If not, why not? Isn’t what’s good for the goose also good for the gander? These six should be putting their own cards on the table, as they say.”

    PSICO’S WHATABOUTISM #2
    “PsiCop … 6 months ago: Re: ‘Perkins claims [evangelicals] don’t embrace right wing violence.’ We all know that’s just not true. WHAT ABOUT the guy who shot up a Planned Parenthood facility in Colorado Springs? Or the guy who shot up a showing of the movie Trainwreck? Or the assassination of doctors, e.g. George Tiller?”

  • If you paid attention to what I was saying … which you’re incapable of, I’m sure, given your towering sanctimonious anger over my insolent, profane refusal to knuckle under to your dour metaphysics … you’d see my words “what about” were actually not fallacious appeals like your own. 

    In your #1, I pointed out that angry conservative Catholics demanded some current cardinals be investigated. When I asked “what about” ex-cardinals, I was pointing out they’re targeting only cardinals with whom they’re unhappy, which is at best inconsistent and at worst self-serving for their own militant, conservative form of Catholicism. 

    In my #2, my “what about” was actually an example refuting the statement, “Perkins claims [evangelicals] don’t embrace right wing violence.” Robert Dear’s attack on PP in Colorado Springs happens to be conclusive proof that Perkins’ claim is false. All it took was that one example to refute him. 

    Pay attention to what I say instead of letting your insane, religiofascist fury consume you and make you post moronic responses. That way you won’t look so infantile. 

  • Call this, “But What About the Whataboutism of The EggnogShtick Psico?!”

    PSICO’S WHATABOUTISM #1
    “PsiCop 5 months ago: Wait … what? Some former cardinals and some wealthy Catholics want to investigate all the current cardinals? WHAT ABOUT those ex-cardinals? Are they willing to have their own careers explored? If not, why not? Isn’t what’s good for the goose also good for the gander? These six should be putting their own cards on the table, as they say.”

    PSICO’S WHATABOUTISM #2
    “PsiCop … 6 months ago: Re: ‘Perkins claims [evangelicals] don’t embrace right wing violence.’ We all know that’s just not true. WHAT ABOUT the guy who shot up a Planned Parenthood facility in Colorado Springs? Or the guy who shot up a showing of the movie Trainwreck? Or the assassination of doctors, e.g. George Tiller?”

  • Ya want “Baptists, and Evangelicals”? And ya want fries with dat? Okey-dokey, karaoke. So like, for instance:

    Kamala Harris is Baptist & Hindu. (Go figure, right?)
    Ralph Northam is Baptist.
    Mark Herring is Presbyterian.
    Elizabeth Warren is Methodist.
    Justin Fairfax is Catholic.

  • Again, conveniently ignoring the plethora of conservatives, both accused and convicted, in favor of Democrats not accused of nor convicted of anything related to the topic at hand (with the obvious exception of Justin Fairfax). Also, you were redundant in bringing up Northam and Herring again.

    So, yeah… your bias is still showing, Hippo. Zip it up.

  • You’d make an excellent judge, SeNorCadClown – congratulation! For just like that, with one sweep with your tongue, you’ve now declared all these guys blameless of any wrongdoing: Jussie Smollett, Ed Buck, Kevin Spacey, Alex McGillis, Terry Bean, Ed Murray, Goodloe Sutton, Ralph Northam, Mark Herring, Elizabeth Warren, Justin Fairfax, Neil deGrasse Tyson, David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss and Al Franken!

  • Clearly, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills, as I’ve not declared anyone blameless of any wrongdoing.

    I merely pointed out that those listed in your second salvo, (Kamala Harris, Ralph Northam, Mark Herring, Elizabeth Warren, Justin Fairfax, and now that I look back, a few others from your first list as well) are not relevant to the discussion at hand, with the exception of Fairfax. Franken, Krauss, Silverman, Tyson, Spacey, and any others accused of sexual misconduct remain relevant and are fair game for this discussion. However, you face an uphill battle to convince anyone that Northam and Herring doing blackface is somehow on par with rape. But go ahead, watching you flail in the mental gymnastics required in such an attempt should be wildly entertaining.

    Also, please explain your lame “SeNorCadClown” bit, because that doesn’t make any sense at all. I mean, I’ve seen some particularly clever attempts to disparage my handle, and some really bad attempts as well, but yours is just the worst attempt so far. It’s like you’re not even trying, or maybe you had a mild stroke while typing it out…?

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