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Vatican debate on gays provokes strong reaction from all corners

St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican in Rome in February 2014. RNS photo by David Gibson
St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican in Rome in February 2014. RNS photo by David Gibson

St. Peter’s Basilica at the Vatican in Rome in February 2014. RNS photo by David Gibson

VATICAN CITY (RNS) From questions of welcoming a gay son home for Christmas to denying the sacraments for the children of gay and lesbian parents, an ongoing debate on the Catholic Church’s approach to homosexuality has raised the hopes of some LGBT advocates and provoked the ire of the church’s right wing.

At the two-week Synod on the Family convened by Pope Francis here, the issue of homosexuality is competing for air time with similar questions of denying Communion to divorced and remarried Catholics or how to respond to couples that live together outside of marriage.

But with a rapidly shifting legal landscape, and a pope who famously asked “Who am I to judge?”, the debate over homosexuality is eliciting personal and charged reactions from all corners of the church.

The controversial debate was unwittingly fired up by Australians Ron and Mavis Pirola, the parents of four and delegates to the church family summit.

The Sydney couple told nearly 200 bishops about friends who had invited their gay son and his partner home for Christmas.

Cardinal Raymond Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis has quietly become an influential player in Rome. RNS photo by David Gibson

Cardinal Raymond Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis, has quietly become an influential player in Rome. RNS photo by David Gibson

“They fully believed in the church’s teachings and they knew their grandchildren would see them welcome the son and his partner into the family,” the couple told those assembled in the Vatican’s Paul VI hall. “Their response could be summed up in three words: ‘He’s our son.’”

American hard-liner Cardinal Raymond Burke shot back on Thursday (Oct. 9) that children should be protected from “exposure” to gay relationships, which he rejected as “evil.”

“If it were another kind of relationship — something that was profoundly disordered and harmful — we wouldn’t expose our children to that relationship, to the direct experience of it,” Burke, who oversees the Vatican court system, told LifeSiteNews.

“And neither should we do it in the context of a family member who not only suffers from same-sex attraction, but who has chosen to live out that attraction, to act upon it, committing acts which are always and everywhere wrong, evil.”

But that’s exactly the approach that sends gay and lesbian Catholics — and members of their extended families — running away from the church, said Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of the largest Catholic gay and lesbian rights group, DignityUSA.

“It is clear this ‘love the sinner’ but ‘hate the sin’ approach does not work,” she said from Boston. “It is inappropriate in dealing with gay people.”

In a Vatican briefing Friday, church leaders said the bishops and other delegates were considering the children who bear the “heavy burdens” caused by divorce or other “irregular situations” — code words for nontraditional families headed by unmarried parents, or gay and lesbian parents.

The synod has also been discussing ways of offering the sacraments to the children of gay couples, something Duddy-Burke said has been used as a “political weapon.” Though not widespread, some gay Catholics have reported obstacles in seeking baptism for their children, or enrolling them in Catholic schools.

“It is absolutely wrong for the church to use its sacraments as a political weapon,” she said. “It is happening with baptisms, weddings and funerals. I have two kids. Our kids should be full members of the church like their parents.”

Francis has said the church must be more compassionate toward the gay community, although he has never argued for changing church teaching that homosexuality is “objectively disordered” or suddenly moved to allow gay marriage.

Nonetheless, the change in tone that Francis has called for — and which seems to be finding support at the synod — has given LGBT advocates reason for hope.

“People are angry that the bishops take the side of discrimination rather than equality,” said Francis DeBernardo, executive director of Maryland-based New Ways Ministry, a gay Catholic group that has long been at odds with the American hierarchy.

The Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest, editor at large of America magazine and the author of many books. Photo courtesy of James Martin

The Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest, editor at large of America magazine and the author of many books. Photo by Kerry Weber, courtesy of James Martin

“(But) they think Francis sees them as brothers and sisters. They don’t feel they are outsiders anymore. Francis has changed the language, and in this synod we are seeing bishops calling for change in pastoral practice.”

The Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest at America magazine and author of “Jesus: A Pilgrimage,” said he, too, is encouraged.

“It is a huge step forward that the synod is hearing from people speaking warmly about LGBT people. And it’s a big step that many bishops now advocate a more pastoral stance to the community,” he said from New York. “Even better would be if the bishops heard from an LGBT person sharing his or her own experiences of being Catholic.”

KRE/AMB END McKENNA

About the author

Josephine McKenna

Josephine McKenna has more than 30 years' experience in print, broadcast and interactive media. Based in Rome since 2007, she covered the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI and election of Pope Francis and canonizations of their predecessors. Now she covers all things Vatican for RNS.

268 Comments

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  • “People are angry that the bishops take the side of discrimination rather than equality”

    No the Bishops are taking the side of Christ and redemption instead of Satan and sin and this instance the sin is homosexual behavior.

  • considering he worships a god who does nothing about catholic holy men raping our children I somehow feel he has no room to speak on anything except plans on his own suicide.

    funny how the second word in the captcha was cash. lol

  • These are not easy questions. All I ask of the shepherds of (all of) the people, the bishops, is that they pray for enlightenment, and that they remember that the Christ said “suffer little children to come unto me!”

  • “No the Bishops are taking the side of Christ and redemption instead of Satan and sin and this instance the sin is homosexual behavior.”

    🙂 Jesus never advocated marginalizing anyone. Nor did he advocate hurting others. I think that the Bishops need to get together with some LGBT people, Catholic and non-Catholic alike and just listen to their stories. Getting to know people changes a person. It will help understand who they are, and it will also help them see Christ in them, and how everyone is made in the image and likeness of God. It will help them love, which, after all, is our main mandate from Jesus himself.

  • We have no idea what God does with men who rape children or anyone else. People of faith know that God will exact justice in in God’s time. We need to stop using God as our reason be being inhuman. God is not the problem; humanity is. It is encouraging to see a synod that is not afraid to tackle real life and a Pope who gently challenges us to love with the heart of Christ. I don’t know why homosexuality, even practicing homosexuality, is a sin in a loving, monogamous relationship. Why is that worse than heterosexual couples who cheat on one another? Yes, Satan is probably having a field day, but not necessarily for the reasons we think.

  • The Rev. James Martin said, “It is a huge step forward that the synod is hearing from people speaking warmly about LGBT people. And it’s a big step that many bishops now advocate a more pastoral stance to the community. Even better would be if the bishops heard from an LGBT person sharing his or her own experiences of being Catholic.” God bless him.
    So because I’m not as polite or politically correct I ask: Why don’t you ask those in your midst?

  • Jesus did not advocate sin either. If homosexuals are trying to leave a chaste life due to their homosexuals, they should be welcomed. If they are advocating sinful behavior, they need to be corrected.

    Anna if some one showed up to a Catholic Church dressed as a KKKer or a NAZI, should the church not marginalize that person and just ignore the uniform and what it represents?

  • Calling sinful behavior is not a sin or judging a person.

    God will judge and it will be based on his laws.

  • Razzle, read about the City of Sodom, Christ talking about marriage and the Letters to the Romans and Corinthians.
    The Bible makes no positive reference to homosexual behavior and many negative references.
    As for as other sins, do you think God would say two wrongs make a right?

  • Who is Rev. James Martin? Is he a Catholic Priest.

    How do you know that Bishops, Priests and Deacons are not hearing from homosexuals in their daily work?

  • The bible tells us of Jesus associating with publicans, tax collectors, sinners. He forgave the adulterous woman, and told her to go in peace and sin no more. I believe if He were here today he would love all and forgive all and ask all to sin no more. This asks alot of all of us, especially gays. If you are gay and Catholic you have to believe that homosexuality is a sin. Just like adultery or child molestation or drunkeness. But it is a sin that can be forgiven. Go in peace and sin no more. Can you? Will you?

  • William, you should read your Bible in its context. The city of Sodom was destroyed for violating the oldest taboo in the ancient world, treating strangers badly. The same sin you advocate. The same sin Jesus admonished people not to engage in.

    As for Paul’s rants (from a person who never met Jesus in the flesh), if you go beyond what your hate-mongering clergy point out to you and read the paragraphs before and after the sections you cite, you would see the subject is idolatry and temple rites.

    Jesus affirmed a gay couple.
    Matthew 8:5-13 & Luke 7:1-10

  • Ostracizing them and calling them out of public life certainly is judging them. God will judge, not you, not your church. So shut your trap and let him do his job.

  • “It is clear this ‘love the sinner’ but ‘hate the sin’ approach does not work.” So we’re supposed to “love the sin” too? What an asinine statement! I appreciate the Synod, but am truly bewildered and unnerved by some of the illogical statements that are being reported from it.

  • The Catholic Church does not ostracize a repentant person.

    “Shut my trap”? Why is your tolerance and diversity? Are you a Freedom of Speech NAZI?

  • Sodom was condemned for many sins including homosexuality.

    Healing sick servant is ‘affirming a gay couple’ ??? Strange logic.

    Also Paul (Saul) met Christ on the road to Damascus. Christ sent Paul to be his messenger to the world. To ignore Paul is to ignore Christ. To call Paul’s Letters ‘rants’ is a sign of a ignorant and/or hateful person.

  • Some thing that no one has commented on in this situation, an adult homosexual brings his same sex partner to a family event that includes young children.

    By bringing the same sex partner, the son is saying he does not respect his parents and other family members. If he came by himself and behaved, he deserves some compassion.

    I would compare it to an out of control alcoholic or drug addict wanting to bring their drinking friends or coke dealer to the event instead of coming sober and by themselves. Are alcoholics and drug addicts born that way like homosexuals?

  • Razzle, you ask why practicing homosexuality is a sin in a loving, monogamous relationship and ask why it’s worse than cheating in a heterosexual relationship. The simple answer is that neither is “worse.” The Church labels both of those circumstances as gravely sinful. So your question is misplaced, and comparing apples to oranges since you’re using monogamy on one side and infidelity on the other as your basis for pondering. I don’t know about you, but I’ve always known the Church to take a very hard stance against infidelity within heterosexual marriages, so I’m not sure where you get this idea that the Church somehow sees homosexual relations as worse.

  • Just for starters, Edmund Burke has no room to talk. He may not be active, but he has clearly demonstrated his “inclination” for many years in his adoration of the ancient adornment of clergy up and down the hierarchical ladder. His extreme attachment to the glamour of ancient rituals in which he can often play-act king over underlings groveling at his feet, kissing his episcopal ring, is another give-away.

    “It takes one to know one,” and those who are healthily accepting of their sexual orientation, now that it is understood with the help of science, sociology, and psychology, if we are knowledgeable and healthy, can handle it. And if we have been around at all, we recognize someone who is still unhealthily locked in the closet and under a guise of pretentious respectability speaks condemnations of his own too loudly.

    Burke’s God is evil. Burke’s God creates distortions and hates his own creation. That would be an ignorant and evil God. Hence, that cannot be God.

  • William, the whole Christ sacrifice-redemption story, the foundation of the crazy Christian superstitions, is a steaming pile of bull output. That calls into question claims about any demands of its supposed deity. First, how is it that your omnipotent being couldn’t do his redemption bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic “god” that you’ve made for yourself there.

  • Re: “No the Bishops are taking the side of Christ and redemption instead of Satan and sin and this instance the sin is homosexual behavior.”

    It’s all well and good for them to go up against “sin,” but why single out gays for special, added vilification? What about “sins” like adultery, taking the Lord’s name in vain, and disobeying one’s parents? Why aren’t the bishops agitating against those things, too, and trying to make them illegal also?

    Then again, why go around singling out particular people to condemn because of their “sin”? Isn’t it true that all of us are “sinners”? Take a look at your own Bible:

    “All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one…. For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” (Rom 3:12,22b-23; see http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYR.HTM).

    Lastly, the bishops have a lot of in-house “sin” to condemn, but they don’t do a very good job of it. In fact, they’re prone to denying its existence, or to blaming anyone and everyone else for it: http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/roman-catholicisms-excuse-making-a-review/

    I just don’t find them to be credible arbiters of “sin.” Maybe that’s just me … cold-hearted cynical godless agnostic heathen that I am. I guess such important things go right over my head or something.

  • All Jesus preached was acceptance and love. People like William should keep their bigotry to themselves until they die. The world has changed and people like that are on the wrong side of history. They’ll be remembered as the bad people they are. JESUS IS LOVE

  • William: You have a lot to learn about religion, sexuality, and culture. You have a lot to learn about science, sociology, and psychology.

    You presume that anyone of a different sexual orientation than your own–or what was presumed to be the only natural orientation by illiterate people many millennia ago–is still that one and only, natural orientation. The human race has learned a lot since those dark, illiterate times, William.

    How can bringing same-sex partner to a healthy, literate gathering be disrespectful–except to those who are still groveling in Dark Ages knowledge? It’s not like the homosexuals visiting family are going to perform any sexual acts in front of them–any more than the heterosexuals are going to do so.

    You display a horrible ignorance about sexuality. If you want to compare homosexual behavior to an “out-of-control alcoholic or drug addict” then you are really wallowing in sexual and social ignorance.

    You write as if you are a heterosexual. Sadly, your writing shows that you do not understand sexuality at all, not even what you seem to imply is your own.

  • Anna VanSant: Are you really trying to infer that knowledge in the time of Jesus was in any way comparable to what we know today about sexual orientation, sex, and almost everything else? The earth is not flat, you know?

  • William: You are dead wrong. Calling behavior sin because it is different than your behavior is not only “sinful,” it is downright ignorant. As for knowing God’s laws, that is a presumption that makes you equal to God. That only drags God “down” to being human, and that is the murder of any god.

  • Matthew 19:4-6, Genesis 5:2…We Catholic faithfuls in Africa are saying Homosexuality is against the will of God!
    It was Adam and Eve and not Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve.
    Allowing homosexuality to strive in the church is just like saying “God is good but the Devil is not too bad”!
    Come Lord Jesus for the light is dying.

  • I do not think anyone can call Catholic bishops “shepherds of (all of) the people” anymore, not after the uncountable number of them who continue to hide the destruction of the innocence of kids by clergy and religious in the ongoing sex scandal.

    The church has acted as it always has. Just wait for time to exhaust the action and memories of the people in the pews whose children were violated by clergy and religious, the same people whose hard-earned dollars are used to pay for all the crimes of clergy and religious.

  • Not much is going to change, I think, until Ratzinger (Pope Benedict de Homophobia) leaves life. Once that occurs they can start by at least admitting that gay people exist in contrast to “people who sometimes experience same-sex attraction.”

    I am sick and tired of hearing about how they, these prelates, these ambitious priests, respect the dignity of all. That don’t and that’s a fact.

  • This mess has already been debunked. 20 seconds of Googling is enough to kill Larry’s claims.

    Why do atheists make such lousy Bible scholars?

  • I am comparing anyone who advocates or lives an anti Christian behavior and expects church blessings. That would be racists, homosexuals and others.

  • As a baptized Catholic I believe the whole concept of hate the sin love the sinner is wrong and a detriment to theology and to the common good. Let’s take the parable of the adulterous woman. When the Pharisees and scribes were condemning this woman. Christ tried to ignore them but their zest for judging and strict interpretation of Moses’s teaching compelled our savior to confront them in their sin by asking a simple question? Who of you here are without sin you be the first one to throw the rock at this child of God. Child of God is my emphasis because we are taught that ALL persons are children of God. The story continues that soon they ALL had thrown down their rocks and left in shame leaving Jesus and this adulterous woman. And of course we know according to Mathew that Jesus said “Where are they who judge you? Neither do I. Go now my child and sin no more. Which has become the basic justification for hate the sin love the sinner theology. However everything and I mean everything that our lord and savior taught was that daughter if you do sin again come on back to me I love you and we’ll get through this together. Why do I espouse this? Because it is not possible to love the person and not love them completely which means accepting them in what you think is sin and loving them more for it because you feel it is a sin and that you are able to ignore and overcome that judgment and truly follow Christ by loving God with all your heart, soul and mind and likewise loving your neighbor as yourself which fulfills the whole law of Moses. I believe this theology, philosophy or tag line was developed to make the speaker feel good about themselves after passing judgment and condemning a person with whom they have no authority to do so. God (Jesus) yes but not man.

  • Who is advocating that the Catholic approve adultery, ect?

    Homosexuals are a well backed group trying to destroy the Catholic Church by perverting its teachings.

  • I am calling behavior sinful because of the Bible, the Holy Spirit and the Teachings of the Church. I don’t care for golf but I don’t call it sinful either: no Christian reason to.

  • Blessing a centurion and a servant he loved does not mean approving homosexuality.

    The term Christian Love is not the same as lust.

  • I am just following your lead.

    The high road doesn’t work with low people. If you truly thought you weren’t being judgmental and God was the only one to judge, then you would not have heeded my advice. 🙂

    Obviously we both knew that was a load of bunk. You want to be judgmental but not be judged for doing so. Hypocrisy deserves no tolerance and is only diverse from the truth of the matter.

  • You have a lot to learn about Christianity.

    Homosexual behavior is offensive to God and his people. To bring a homosexual partner to a family knowing that is offensive is disrespectful.

    I understand sexuality to be a gift from God not be to be abused.

    All far as dark ages, God is timeless. Homosexual was wrong at the time of Christ. The Jews already knew that and Paul let the rest of the world know

    In any event, you seem very of the topic at hand: Christianity and sexual conduct.

  • To Doc and William

    1. No you are not reading the text as given nor have any clue of the context. If you took from the Sodom story just a condemnation of homosexuality (really gang rape) then you are illiterate and ignorant as well. The entire story had to do with wickedness equaling inhospitality. The oldest taboo for all cultures in the region. [If you read more than one book in your life you would have known that] From passages of marked coins for those entering the city to people being “shaken down” and robbed in its streets

    2. If googling allegedly debunks me then you are being awfully selective about the websites you chose. Doc, you just don’t like the implication that your uncivil behavior towards others make you a Sodomite. 🙂

    3. Paul met the “spirit” of Jesus on the road to Damascus. Not the living man. To ignore Paul is to take Jesus’s actual companions and contemporaries seriously over an angry upstart looking to make a name for himself among gentiles.

  • Did Jesus say if you love me, you will keep my commandments? He did not approve of homosexual behavior, so to engage in it means, you don’t love Jesus.

    Nothing bigoted about that and the right side of history is the final judgment.

  • Wow you are fanatical in your hatred and ignorance of Paul.

    Paul did as much as any human to spread the truth and you hate him for it?

  • Larry: if I was hateful, I would say let the homosexuals rot in hell. I hope and pray that they and all sinners: all people: come back to Christ.

  • Edmund Burke the Irish Writer?

    Cardinal Raymond has Masters in Theology and Philosophy and is a Canon Lawyer, very educated and intelligent.

    To be honest, gilhcan your hatred, ignorance and bigotry of the Catholic Church is almost as bad as the KKK.

  • “Heathen” means “non-believer”. And read the whole “judge not lest ye be judged” verse. It means “you will be judged by the standard that you judge others” as a warning against hypocrisy. As far as I can tell, William isn’t being hypocritical.

    Don’t use words that you don’t understand.

  • Where do these celibate men get off saying that gay families are bad for children? There is no evidential proof on earth or heaven that says gay marriage is a danger to kids. However, what marriage has been proved – time and time again – and confirmed by peer-reviewed research to be mortally dangerous to kids? The Priesthood. The so-called marriage to Christ.

    Raping kids! Where is the outrage? Not from the Church.

    Raping kids! I feel I am screaming in a crowded room and no one hears me.

    Men of the Synod, until you give the full attention needed to the crisis of this under-investigated situation, you have absolutely ZERO credibility in what is and is not safe for children.

  • I went to a WNBA game several years ago—woman’s basketball. So many of the couples in attendance were comprised of two women, many with children. My college roomate was gay. My wife’s two best friends are gay. My cousin is gay. On and on. The point is this. There are millions of gay people in the world. When I realized one day that there were so many “Gay people”I realized that God’s ways far surpass our intellect and our understanding of his creative genius. I cannot call millions of God’s creation sinful and disordered. They, like millions of straight people are the same; they are beautiful and living signs of God’s love.

  • Where do these men get off?

    Well they get their authority through Apostolic Succession.

    As far as the child rapes (almost exclusively by men to boys), how does that change the Christian teaching on marriage?

  • What would Jesus do; what would Jesus say; who doesn’t Jesus love? Perhaps someone in the synod should ask Jesus.

  • I am a Catholic priest, and I support LGBT rights. I know there are other priests who do the same. The Cardinal mentioned above who is anti gay is not God, nor does he represent the majority of Catholics on this issue.

  • Exactly.Chastity is the virtue that has been lost, among heterosexuals and homosexuals.
    If I learned my child was gay, of course I hope my child would find love and a long term monogamous relationship. I would not turn my back on my child or any other gay person. (Full disclosure, I employed a most loving and kind gay woman as a Nanny when my children were young. However, I don’t think Catholic marriage that is designed for producing and raising children should be granted to gays who do not have a natural ability to produce and raise children. Having said that, I would not object to gay women adopting children no one else wants, such as the Chinese babies or drug addicted babies born in American hospitals. if the lesbian couple established the legal framework available for partnerships–then the children would be included. This arrangement would not be far from (please don’t scream) nuns running orphanages. My bias, I guess is I don’t believe sex is (as central) to many lesbian relationships as sex is central to male homosexual relationships. So I bend the rules a bit, but this is the hierarchy of values I have at this time. Qualifier, I am against invitro and surrogacy for heterosexuals and homosexuals. I hope Pope Francis can find a new path, but not cave to political correctness and loss of the principles of natural law and ‘for the larger good.”

  • But that IS what you are saying. You are just being coy.

    In fact many feel that they never left Christ in the first place.

  • So now you are calling me a hater for being objective about the text of the Bible. How is that being open and honest in the spirit of lively discussion?

    Fact of the matter is, Paul never met the living Jesus. His writings are at times in opposition with the Gospel accounts and the parables/lessons contained therein.

    Even the most devout honest, scholarly Christians would acknowledge such things. Most would simply shrug it off and talk about the underlying good messages.

  • Your God maybe. Somehow he even sanctions uncivil behavior and prejudices as well. How very convenient for you. 🙂

  • As I stated earlier and because I am an American citizen (8 Generations) you have no authority to question my religious activity, conviction or participation in any way nor are you authorized to conduct a church inquisition. It is simply not you right to inquire.

    The answer is yes plus a few other times during the week and bible study. God Bless you and it is truly amazing what a vigorous study of the Gospels can do to change your way thinking.

  • No it hasn’t. Just disputed. Like the idea that “love thy neighbor” is a conditional commandment among Christians.

  • Can Anyone say “I see a schism in the offing?” Get Catholic Holy Father and save souls, Your Humbleness.

  • What is ignorant is Ratzinger claiming that “we do violence to children when we place them with homosexual couples.” THAT, along with his “objectively disordered” BS is what is ignorant. Sorry but the Pope Emeritus is a homophobic bigot.

  • Is it currently the case that the Church refuses communion and other sacraments to the children of a gay couple? Is this universal?

  • And God said, “My House is a House of Prayer for all people”. The Almighty didn’t make any distinctions or state any exceptions. And Good Pope Francis said, “Who are we to judge?” Really, who are we to judge?

  • James: Maybe some of us think the church is harsher on gays because priests have forbidden sacraments to the children of gay couples and won’t let them attend Catholic schools. I’ve never heard of that happening to the children of a straight couple even if one member having been caught in an adulterous affair or convicted of crimes.

  • Clearly you know nothing about the man. Do serious homework first before insulting him on a website.

  • Gayness isn’t a sin. Want our gay brothers and sisters to be able to have the sacrament of marriage in a Catholic Church. Grateful for the many contributions to the Church that have been made by our gay brothers and sisters. A single adult loving another single adult of the same gender — I have never seen anything sinful about that. Seems a sin that such lovers are barred from the sacrament of matrimony in the Catholic church.

  • Paul met Jesus: road to Damascus. Jesus came back from the dead, do you remember? The Apostles accepted Paul.

    Yes I call you a hater, a hater of St Paul. His Christian witness does not fit into your prejudicial ideas of Christianity so you use hateful words like rant and angry upstart.

    No Christian can deny that St Paul was God’s messenger.

  • I may not have any authority but you state your credentials, and I want to know how valid those credentials are. Many ‘Catholics’ are clueless about church teachings especially the Catechism.

    Why should the number of generations of American that you are, make any difference in this discussion? I am at least 6 generations and a veteran: does that matter?

    Besides the Gospels, we need to study the entire Bible: Old Testament. Paul, everything.

    In any event, we are also called to help each other by pointing out sin.

  • If I understand correctly, since Catholic marriage is for producing and raising children, all men and women seeking Catholic marriage should have medical testing performed to ensure that they are capable of fathering or bearing a child. Those who do not have this “natural ability” should be denied the sacrament of Catholic marriage.

    I’m sure the Chinese babies and drug addicted babies will be forever grateful for your grand plan.

    Please, please, please find a place where you can learn about these issues.

  • Not sure how your comment differentiates Christian Love and human lust. However, Jesus helped many people. Jesus also does not despised anyone, he died on the cross for all people.

  • I am not saying let the homosexuals rot in hell, I am saying they need to repent or they could rot in hell. Maybe God will forgive us all: homosexuals, NAZIS, KKKers, Communists, Abortionists,,,

  • 🙂 They should all accept each other at his point… The entire celibate church is described as confused… and how apt the description! Any sanity left in that church should look for another.

  • Nowhere in the new testament is there any record of Jesus calling homosexuality a sin – he spoke out against inequality, he spoke out against bigotry and hatred, he spoke out against greed, but he never said anything about homosexuality. People like you use religion to justify your own bigotry and homophobia. That is the biggest sin of all.

  • He spoke out against sexual immorality in all its forms, which He and every other observant Jew listening to him knew included same-sex behavior and several others. Go read the actual gospels.

  • Yes Jesus is love — He loved people enough shoot straight and warn them to stop sinning or something worse [than disability] might happen to them. John 5:14.

  • Excuse me, but when are you from? 1882? When the severe anti-homosexual laws were passed in Britain in the 19th century, women who lived together were basically given a free pass; the general attitude was that they were obviously spinsters who shared living expenses and looked after one another (the arrangements were often referred to as “Boston Marriages”); interestingly, it was assumed that no sexual relations were involved, because it was assumed that women were basically uninterested is sexual relations, except as a duty to a husband.

    Hate to break it to you, but all of the lesbian couples I’ve known, and I’ve known a number of them, whether they were in the early honeymoon stage, or together for decades, had very happy, very healthy intimate lives. And…one of the most devoted couples I know just celebrated their 46th anniversary, have seen each other through very tough times, loss of family, catastrophic illness, and the chronic illnesses of old age. They obviously love each other deeply, they’re in their early 80’s…and they’re two men. Frankly, as a single, middle aged woman, I envy what they have together. And I can’t bring myself to believe that a loving God would condemn them for the love they share.

  • The fact that this is being discussed marks a change. Iam a Gay man, who chose to be a Catholic. I chose to live a celibate lifestyle and worked as a Catechist for year with an MA in theology. I understood what the Pope stated and that moral regulations concerning sexual behavior would not change, but after years of Pastoral work please don’t deny a child Sacraments. I know far too many parents, who never obeyed the Church hierarchy, and had their children Baptized. As far as the statement concerning Nazis, please refer to The Lateran Treaty in 1929 and find how the Vatican State was formed. Furthermore, I know parents of children, who are a Gay, and were denied the right to love their children because they fell in love. Please remember religion is a choice, but in the end God will have the final say. I am disabled also. Do you truly believe Jesus would say when someone died that,” You are going to Hell because of whom you loved? This is what I am hearing now. As far as Natural law, study your faith. This was not originally a teaching of Christianity, but borrowed from pagan philosophers of Greece. I too am trained by Jesuits. The Sacraments are sacred in and of themselves. No child should be refused the grace of God.

  • do you discuss sexual activity of your dinner guests with your children? If not, don’t worry if a gay couple comes to your home. Its your prying mind that is traumatizing you. Your children will be just fine.

  • Jesus (who really said very little about very few things) never asked his followers to shut off their brains. On the contrary.

  • First did you ever study the story of Sodom? Did you read that when Abraham was arguing with the angels, ” He asked if you find 5 or 1 JUST person. There is a far more to that word then sexual ethics.” Finally it states in Jerome’s commentary, the guide to Catholic understanding of the Bible, ” that the men of Sodom wanted to know the to know the two angels who entered, and the Lot responds, ” Take my two virgin daughters and do with them what you want instead of harming these men.” What normal man would say that? Jesus stated,” If you look at a woman lustfully, you have committed adultery in your heart.” You are putting words in our Lord’s mouth. He never said anything about homosexuality.” As far as what Paul wrote, the Cardinals are seriously considering what Paul wrote with respect to annulment.

  • no, every Jew listening to him did not “know” sexual immorality included same-sex behavior. Please provide the text where Jesus spoke of sexual immorality.

  • the whole “judge not” theme in Christianity certainly does not simply refer to hypocrisy. It refer to not judging others when God is the only judge.

    “Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,

    “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
    and every tongue shall confess to God.”

    12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God”

  • Matt. 15:18-19. “But the things which come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts: murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.”

    Why did I have to tell you that?

    If you did not know what Jesus said about sexual immorality and where, how do you presume to know whether Jesus’ listeners (who happened, inthis instance, to have been teachers of the law) knew homosexuality to be a form of sexual immorality or not?

  • William, what you forget is that it is not up to you to decide when someone has sinned. It is between the person and God. The person decides, based on what they have interpreted as what is the definition of sin.

    I am glad you were not alive during the Inquisition.

  • “so I’m not sure where you get this idea that the Church somehow sees homosexual relations as worse.”

    Ummm, because they do. Read the news. Read history.

    Unhappy couples can get annulments and come get their warm fuzzies again in the Church. Homosexuals don’t get to go back in the womb.

  • I am a Gay Catholic man. Priests know I am, and have a degree in theology, and was a Catechist. According to Cannon law, ” I and others, including children have not been denied Communion.” Secondly, as far as those, who are discussing this whole situation, you must differentiate between what is bad and what is a serious sin. The words sin, evil, and mortal sin are being used as the same words. and that is incorrect. When you say love, to both heterosexual and homosexual, Please start to read what the word love means according to the Gospels and epistles. I have read Edmund Burke, and he does what certain Catholic theologians are doing. Both are extremes.The attention concerning this issue has to do with Same sex marriage being legalized. I know that the Gay men I know and myself would never hurt a child; however this situation has happened, legalizing marriages too quickly. They, and all of us need to study those, who were in long term relationships and understand the dynamics to see if any harm has happened to all, the common good.so to speak. The fact that they are listening marks a drastic change. One that I have never seen in any organized religion before.

  • “How do you know that Bishops, Priests and Deacons are not hearing from homosexuals in their daily work?”

    Good point. Many priests are gay and work and converse with each other regularly. So, yes, bishops, priests and deacons hear from homosexuals in their daily work.

  • As a Gay man, who is Catholic by choice, I find what the Synod is doing is a a welcoming religion. I understood fully what the Pope said when he stated. If a Gay person wants to be Catholic and live a virtuous life, who am I to judge. At least the terminology. “objectively abnormal” is out of the vocabulary. I am celibate by choice as I am Catholic. I will not condemn anyone, and will wait for the conclusion and read the documents carefully. I have an MA in theology from the Jesuits. I am silent now and hopefully waiting for some more positive terminology. I am also disabled, and I know that not all LGBT individuals are tolerant, but references only to the Bible, without a Sacramental theology based upon tradition, scripture, and what people are doing or capable of doing even with God’s grace must be considered. Refusing Sacraments even as far as Cannon law to children is wrong. This task is not simple, but even with divorced heterosexual couples, care must be taken not to exclude anyone from the possibility of God’s grace and a welcoming Church.If hateful language is allowed to continue, whereby teenagers and others commit suicide, then they the hierarchy are responsible. I pray that people learn about the faith. This has not occurred during my lifetime, so as all can have an open dialogue. This is another important responsibility of the hierarchy. I also pray that the hierarchy stops fixating on sexuality, and starts to take under consideration the Christians being slaughtered now and the economic struggles all of us face, but my hope is that condemning will end. God bless you all, and May the Holy Spirit truly guide the Synod and all in a spirit of faith ,love, and hope.

  • I am a Catholic with same-sex attractions…I had in the past my share of living the risky gay lifestyle…I knew of my situation as early as the 3rd grade…born in 1975…my family loved and accepted me even when I admitted my sexual preference in 1997…I tried to live by my father’s words that “attraction is not sinful…the act is” and advised me to avoid having relationships…I fell in 2003 (had money and exposed to the internet and reality of homosexual world)…had casual encounters with men I barely know…I risked it even foregoing the use of condoms…in January 1 2006, after committing another homosexual act…I felt guilt doing it on Mama Mary’s great feast of Mother of God…I vowed to stop it with her help…I looked for catholic approved groups for people with same sex attractions and have been trying to guide others…had myself tested and was gratefully found negative…had witnessed friends succumb to aids…

    the church must guide and not judge…in the end the decision still fall on the individual…if he seeks help assist them…it is a very hard and lonely trek uphill…be understanding and charitable with them…

  • Has anyone considered that Cardinal Burke’s comments are meant to derail the entire Synod? The arch-conservative Cardinal was demoted at the beginning of Francis’ Pontificate and of course he objects to the tone and direction which Francis is taking the Church (like most Conservatives.) His disregard for the pastoral damage done by his comments remind me of an angry person who no longer cares about how his words impact others.

  • Elaine: God decides what sin and God tells us what sin is through scripture, prayer, his Holy Church, ect.

    I am glad that I was not around during the Inquisition: how about you, would you have enjoyed the Inquisition?

  • Elaine why should a ‘gay couple’ come as a couple to a Christian Family event or any Christian event? They promoting evil.

  • My God? I do not own any God, I do try to follow the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He does not sanction sin or evil: he allows free will. He does sanction us to speak the truth.

  • Marriage is a man and a woman.

    Christian love is not a sin, however Christian love does not two men or two women marrying or engaging in fornication.

  • You can see Gestapo-like tactics already being used by the Gay Marriage Cult these days. Now that the Government is on their side, they are showing their true colors.

    Christians dare not underestimate the amount of hatred that Gay Marriage Activists harbor towards them. Don’t ever say, “It can’t happen here.”

  • The Sodom story is straightforward, folks. There really aren’t any pro-gay escape hatches there, for anyone with access to a Bible. A person needs only to read Gen. chap. 19 and also Ezekiel 16:49-50 (especially VERSE 50, Larry!!).

    Sodom had other sin problems, such as haughtiness, inhospitality and despising of poor people, but the Bible is clear: Homosexuality WAS THE LAST STRAW. There’s no escaping that. Simply look at the texts, it’s right there.

    Sure, Lot did the wrong thing by trying to offer his two daughters to the mob. He had no right to do that. But THEN you see just how bad the Sodomite gay men really were: they were so depraved in their homosexuality that they REFUSED the girls and and tell Lot that they will do HIM if Lot don’t come across with those two guys for their gay pleasures.

    The rest, is history. The last straw–HOMOSEXUAL SIN–was now on the table. If you remember seeing the early Sixties film “The Last Days of Sodom and Gomorrah”, you’ll remember how the angels’ faces quickly morphed into a terrible darkness beneath their hoods. You just KNEW, just from watching the TV, that you didn’t want to be anywhere within a 200-mile radius of that city.

    ****

    Nor do you get an escape hatch when Jesus Himself gives a reference to Sodom as a point of comparison while warning the people Capernaum of what? Divine Judgment.

    Now why would Jesus mention the late city of Sodom while giving a warning about Divine Judgment? Ah, but you already know why.

    I’m not calling for mindless condemnation, not calling for holier-than-thou’s, not calling for people to forget about grace and charity and civility.

    I’m just calling on Christians, Catholic and Protestant alike, to publicly AGREE with their Bibles already, and I’m calling on Larry and Max to start seriously READING their Bibles already. (And also cut out all that slimy Atheism foolishness too !!!!!!!)

  • Honestly? If you disbelieve the Bible, then “you do not understand sexuality at all.” It’s that simple.

  • So Jesus didn’t preach about judgment as well?

    Then why did Jesus mention Sodom? To promote gay marriage?

  • When are we finally gonna get over this? Gay people are not sinners, they were born that way. They can’t help it. They don’t have a choice, therefore they are innocent of the charge of sinning by being attracted to the same sex. “Anti-Christian behavior”? What about all the pedophiles in the Church who get away with it by just agreeing to move on to another location? But such behavior implies a choice, and gays have no choice. How about “racists, homosexuals and BIGOTS”? You throw the first stone, watch out, it might come flying right back at you. Any parent who can’t forgive his son/daughter for ruining their day ought to be ashamed of themselves. You love your kids unconditionally, even if you don’t understand them. And whatever you do, never, ever leave a young child alone with a priest, minister, rabbi or pastor.

  • Religion is frequently about sloughing off problems, commitments, and responsibilities generally, to some non-existent sky fairy who will “forgive” you on demand.

  • The gay religion is a very big religion now. It’s a very big MESS now. It’s not compatible with Jesus Christ. Homosexual behavior is not what God wants for His children.

    All people are created equal. All lifestyles, are NOT.

  • William, the whole Jesus-died-on-cross -salvation thing, the foundation of your crazy Christian cult, is a steaming pile of nonsense. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly dead-Jesus-on-sticks hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers?

    Pretty pathetic “god” that you’ve made for yourself there, and your religion is founded on nonsense.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • I did not read the article.. I did not need to .. Homosexuality is harder on one of its victims than being just a murder or thief or something like that .. because homosexuality is against one self also…. No one in their right mind should want that for their child and should take every opportunity they can to talk to there child no matter how old they are about Homosexuality.. Wanton sin has the very real potential to destroy faith .. And homosexuality is the worse for this..
    it ranks with heterosexual sins .As a faith destroyer…yes Christians need to Go over board on condemning both heterosexual sins and homosexuality .. because of so many Christians caught up in theses type of sin’s known as faith destroyer’s … Murder by Christians is not nearly so bad because its much more easy to see that as sinful than sexual sins..

  • @ James Sullivan
    ask your self these question’s

    as a gay man. do you think Jesus neded to die for YOUR waton and kept sin of homosexuality?

    if not homosexuality has all ready destroyed your faith in what Jesus came to do for you.. Save you from your sin’s
    And if you do think Jesus needed to die for it why then are you still doing it?

  • @ BOB now we know why our sons and daughters are being killed in all the theaters of war in the also why our people are being decapitated ..

    why should not God chastise us using heathens of false religions ..in hopes we turn to him .. after all

    our salvation God cares about..

  • @ Larry its conditional only in your mind because its you who want to say what Love is …. also what being kind is ..

    its not kind or loving not to call sin Sin..

  • @Jack Mathys

    “When are we finally gonna get over this?”

    Only when the vast majority of us abandon The Bible and the Q’uran.
    These ancient texts belong in a trash bin.

    “Kill homosexuals” – (Leviticus 20:13)

    “In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”
    (Romans 1:27)

    “DO NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE…IF HE IS GUILTY..”
    (1 Corinthians 5:11)

    “Avoid Them” – (Romans 16:17)

    “Let him who has done this be removed from among you.” – (1 Corinthians 1:13)

    “have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” – (2 Thessalonian 3:14)

    This is bigoted, primitive garbage.

  • Fr. Martin was speaking of the present synod – suggesting it would be great if a LGBT person could share his lived experience with the Bishops now meeting in Rome.

  • Fr. Martin – you have asked people not to comment more than once or twice – could you do us a favor and eliminate all of these who continue to post over and over and over again? Please – these haranguers do nothing to add to the conversation.

  • Why? Because Ratzinger said so? Ratzinger is a theologian; a catechist. He lacks the erudition to draw that conclusion while not lacking intellectual humility.

    Every study demonstrates that children raised by same-sex couples are healthy, happy and successful. Half the kids in this country are being raised by a single parent. One grew up to be President but that’s the exception.

  • Why bother to lie about Paul? He never met Jesus. His writings were included in the Bible to convenience a political agenda. Catholic bishops are outliers in claiming God hates LGBT Americans.

  • Too bad for you so many denominations reject your hate-based misinterpretation of Ezekiel. These denominations will marry same gender couples in the many US States (that number of US States has been increasing daily recently) and the District of Columbia: Affirming Pentecostal Church International, Alliance of Christian Churches, Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries, The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Community of Christ, Conservative Judaism, Ecumenical Catholic Church, Ecumenical Catholic Communion, The Episcopal Church, Evangelical Anglican Church In America, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals, Inclusive Orthodox Church, Moravian Church Northern Province, Metropolitan Community Church, Old Catholic Church, Presbyterian Church USA, Progressive Christian Alliance, Reconciling Pentecostals International, Reconstructionist Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reformed Anglican Catholic Church, Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), Unitarian Universalist Church, United Church of Christ, Unity Church

  • We’re all familiar with anti-gays WHINING that their intended LGBT victims are “the Gestapo,” but the facts prove differently. Just when did LGBT Americans cook up, and then throw a Hate Vote to deprive anti-gays of their Constitutionally protected right to marry the person they love?

  • Comparing LGBT Americans and loving, committed same gender American married couples to “murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander” is hate speech, nothing more.

  • Please demonstrate just where in the Bible Jesus is quoted as attacking a loving, committed same gender couple. Make sure your quote is clear and direct. Sorry, the usual vague claims that “Jesus hated sin” doesn’t cut it, which is why so many Christian denominations are marrying same gender couples at this very moment all across America.

  • We know for a fact that same gender parents are just as good:

    “Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual. When 2 adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition.”

    http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/2/339

  • The Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Agency has on its website details of studies of same gender parents and our children going back over 30 years. They recommend same gender couples be utilized MORE in adoptions because they proved we’re just as good at raising children as mixed-sex parents. Look it up for yourselves and learn the FACTS about same gender parents. A 2008 report from The Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Agency, America’s most respected experts on adoption said:

    “[S]tudies on children dating back 25 years conclude that children raised by gay and lesbian non-adoptive parents fare as well as those reared by heterosexual parents (Breways, Ponjaert, Van Hall, & Golombok, 1997; Chan, Raboy & Patterson, 1998; Golombok, Perry, Burston, Murray, Mooney-Sommer, Stevens, & Golding, 2003; Wainwright, Russell & Patterson, 2004).”

    http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/policy/2008_09_expand_resources.php

  • No, William, YOU are the one who, when someone uses the term “marriage equality,” you only hear “gay sex.”

  • That’s why Americans are condemning the sins of anti-gays, and trying to help anti-gays get counseling for their mental disorder, homophobia. Would you like us to help you find a free mental health clinic in your community? Homophobia can be cured.

  • In your comment you said “I don’t think Catholic marriage that is designed for producing and raising children..” What about Catholic marriages for postmenopausal women who no longer are physically able to produce children. These are always allowed.

  • Bob, I see you found a new place to post your God hate. Why?

    He still wants to save you Bob. Surrender before it is too late.

  • The church is hung up on sex. Always has been. It has never accepted that the God of creation created sex in all its interesting and diverse forms for human beings. Jesus Christ never talked about any sexual behaviors. He spoke about relationships and community. Sex has never been the foundation of love. And even at its best, it is not what binds two people together. By its nature it is of the flesh – love is of the spirit. Obviously the church knows the reality or it would never have promoted same-gender community living (which Jesus never did, by the way) and call it “God – designed”. When the lay members start speaking more vocally and remain in the pews rather than running away, this may one day change. Until then, the fear mongers who want to believe and preach that “spilling one’s seed” is equal to murder and that orgasms amount to blasphemy and idolatry, then we will be stuck with what we have. A bunch of ridiculous nonsense. Before I knew I was gay, I knew that I was Catholic. I was raised by straight parents who stayed married for 54 years and loved their five children just the way they were, enough to send all of us to 12 years of Catholic school. I did not agree with everything my parents did or taught, nor do I with the Catholic church, but it is “home” and my “family” is there. So I will continue to receive the Eucharist that gives life. For I believe that Jesus loves his gay brothers and sisters as much as all the rest. For God’s sake, he made us (“through Him all things were made”)!!! With all our crazy, wonderful talents and so-called “disordered” attractions too! And by the way, Jesus’s “beloved” was another man (John – the only one referred to as such in the entire gospel – except for maybe Lazarus, also a man – “See how much he loved him.”) – lest ye forget. So now, get to church on Sunday, receive the Eucharist, and get on with living the life of love that Jesus taught! Thank you for reading.

  • @Doc,

    “Homosexual behavior is not what God wants for His children”

    How do you know this?
    I thought God’s desires were unknowable? Where are yo getting your insight on this?

    More importantly, who are ‘his children’? I know for a fact that he did not have sex with my mother. So am I off the hook?

  • Indeed, a grave sin against God is self-hatred. It is rampant amongst the sexually repressed clergy of the church – for masturbation too is a serious sin in their eyes.
    “Love thy neighbor as thy self.”

  • @William,

    “He does sanction us to speak the truth.”

    Yes, and he does command murder.
    “Kill Homosexuals” – (Leviticus 20:13)

    Somehow I don’t think you are up to the task of following God. Because you don’t want to totally mess up your life and go to jail and live in misery for killing gays. Good for you.

    But remember what Jesus said he will do when he returns and he finds people like you who have not submitted to the will of God…

    “Execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    I can’t wait to see this religion die off. You will believe it till the day you die – but your children will be wiser.

  • You’re simply one of those overly righteous one who refuse to understand the virtue of forgiveness. The church through these same bishops have done and are still doing so much to correct these evils committed by a very small group of her priests. The popes have apologised, bishops have resigned, priests have been de-roped and people like you are not yet satisfied. You want to always allude to it at every oppurtunity to bring the church and herpriests to rridicule and shame. Well..we are sorry but we are all struggling. And the truth must be kept.

  • You’re so wrong elaine….that’s moral relativism. If Everybody can decide what is sin and what’s not sin…then there can’t be truth. Homosexuality is a sin irrespective of whatever anybody thinks of it. We must love the sinner, afterall we are all sinners. But the sinners must seek to change or stop his sinful acts. ‘Go and sin no more’ Jesus’ worda to the adulterous woman.

  • Ok atheists, pay attention please. A friend of a friend past away, lost his battle with cancer and was in his mid forties. He was very active and aggressive on the internet proclaiming his unbelief and ridiculing believers. As far as anyone knows he never changed his mind in this life. This is so sad. He knows there is a God now, but it is too late for him. Turn to The Lord while there is still time.

  • For myself, it doesn’t concern me what side of the aisle people are on in regards to this issue. What does co cern me is +Burke’s lack of Pastoral Care. Looking up his bio, it looks like he’s a careerist; he was only in one parish assignment, before moving to diocesan jobs. He’s an expert pastor? I don’t think so.

    Whatever the views he has, whatever training he received as a priest, whether he is right or wrong on the issue, he doesn’t know diddly-squat about being pastoral; it seems he has never really had to do it.

    What the old saying…those who can’t do teach…?

  • Bob,
    I love reading your commentary. It is good to see another atheist out here. Makes me feel less lonely.
    I’m glad for your contribution to the debates.
    Just a heads up – if you use vulgar language RNS might ban you. I’ve seen it happen to others. And I’ll miss your point of view as much as I miss theirs.

  • Frank,

    Really? Have a heart, won’t you?
    Suppose your son told you he was gay? I mean, really. Think about what you are saying to humanity! You can’t disown your child.

  • @Joseph,

    Find a man you can love. Don’t be afraid.
    Don’t let ancient ideas from 2000 years ago interfere with your life.

    Instead of being lonely realize there is another man who feels like you do, he could love you for who you are. If the bible is stopping you, throw that bible out a window. Religion is not life – it is death. Go… live now!

  • @rob,

    Jesus didn’t die for anyone.
    Why do I say this? because…You have no evidence of any such thing. And life is demonstrably better without religion so why push this nonsense on anyone.

  • Amen, Brother Frank! As the Bible says:

    If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    I know it. Frank knows it. Doc Anthony knows it. Shawnie5 knows it. God knows it. And Religion News Service knows it, because they will “hide” other comments but they never hide anti-gay posts from me and Frank and Shawnie and the Doc.

  • “Love thy neighbor” is more properly translated as “love thy tribesman.” The idea was to promote maintaining a cohesive in-group, not to sow harmony among people living in a heterogeneous society. In historical context, the idea of having a neighbor who was (for example) a different religion or sexual orientation than you would have been totally unheard of.

    In proper context, “love thy neighbor” is no call for tolerance. It is a call for uniting the in-group against the out-group.

  • I think you well demonstrate the struggle you and others have been through and will continue to endure. Being celibate is difficult. God Bless you on your journey and thank you for sharing.
    I think that experiencing life with ALL it’s ups and downs makes us who we are and The Lord turns all our struggles to good.

  • The truth is that the foundational myth of the whole Christian cult (Catholicism being one of the worst sub-cults) is utter nonsense.
    The whole Jesus-sacrifice-salvation myth is a steaming pile of bull output. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic “god” that you’ve made for yourself there.

    It is high time for humanity to get past the absurd Christian beliefs.You know that they are nonsense, so break free. Bankrupt the church. Stop paying for these priests and their expensive silk dresses. In addition, the charities of religions are no reason to keep supporting them; religious charities overall give the worst aid return for their massive money intake.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • In other words there isn’t enough data to make a conclusion.

    Children deserved both a mother and father, that’s what’s best for the. Willfully denying them that is nothing short of abuse. Putting them into a disordered sinful relationship is abuse as well.

  • Thaddeus,

    “You’re simply one of those overly righteous one who refuse to understand the virtue of forgiveness.”

    FORGIVE??

    22,000 cases of child rape have been reported worldwide. Cardinal Law himself operated what can only be called a network of Pedophile Priests in Boston for decades. DECADES.

    Cardinal Law continues to live and work in the Vatican. Instead he should be in jail.

    THE AUDACITY!
    What nerve to claim that it is the victim’s moral duty to forgive!
    Nonsense! It is the responsibility of the justice system to function – and the Church has defied the Justice System in every country where it has been accused of crimes against humanity.

    For shame!

    The Church can go to the Hell it believes in.

  • @Solarsky,

    “I’m calling on Larry and Max to start seriously READING their Bibles already. (And also cut out all that slimy Atheism foolishness too !)”

    Okay –
    🙂 Let’s stop being “SLIMY” Atheists and start reading our Bibles 🙂

    CUT OFF THE WIFE’S HAND THAT TOUCHED ANOTHER MAN’S PENIS:
    “If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and SEIZING HIS GENITALS, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.” – (DEUT. 25:11)

    WOMEN MUST NOT BE DISTRACTED BY BEAUTIFUL, LARGE PENISES
    “There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.” (Ezekiel 23:20)

    JESUS: FORGIVE YOUR OWN ENEMIES BUT KILL MINE! (AND YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE)
    “Jesus said, “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and KILL THEM IN FRONT OF ME.'” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

    GOD SAYS: SAVE THE PRETTY SLAVES FOR SEX & RAPE
    “When you go out to war… if you see a pretty woman among the enslaved and become so enamored of her….you may take her home….you may have relations with her.” (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

    GOD: GRAB ALL THE VIRGINS AS YOUR SEXUAL CONQUEST
    The Lord said, “but save FOR YOURSELVES every girl who has never slept with a man.” (Numbers 31:18)

    JESUS: I COME IN PEACE ? YOU MUST BE JOKING!
    I WANT TO BURN THE WORLD AND KILL EVERYTHING. SO IMPATIENT!
    “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But….what constraint I am under! Do you think I came to bring peace on Earth? No…but division!” – Jesus (Luke 12:49-51)

    GOD: OF COURSE I WANT YOU TO KILL FOR ME! I LIKE TO WATCH!
    ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering to me on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

    JESUS: GOD AND I AGREE ON EVERYTHING!
    “Jesus answered them, ‘I and My Father are one.’ ” (John 10:30-33)

  • @A Single Gay Catholic,

    “priests have forbidden sacraments to the children of gay couples and won’t let them attend Catholic schools.”

    Sins of the fathers trickle down to their children in this primitive, bigoted, judgmental nonsense of religion.

    “Avoid Them” (Romans 16:17)

    Any Christian who tells you it is “wrong to judge others” is not referring to anything in his religion for that morality!

    CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN DIRECTED BY JESUS
    AND THE HOLY SPIRIT TO BE ABSOLUTELY CRUEL
    AND JUDGMENTAL AND HATEFUL TO HUMANITY:

    “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting” (2 John 1:10)

    “For whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” (2 John 1:11)

    “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault.” (Matthew 18:15)

    “As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.” (Titus 3:9-11)

    “Let him who has done this be removed from among you.” (1 Corinthians 1:13)

    “have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonian 3:14)

    CHRISTIANS SPRING TO HARSH, CRUEL JUDGEMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE DIRECTED TO DO SO BY JESUS CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    IT IS DESPICABLE THAT ANYONE WOULD THINK THIS TO BE A ‘GOOD’ PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE.

  • @Thaddeus,

    “If Everybody can decide what is sin and what’s not sin…then there can’t be truth.”

    ARE YOU UNAWARE OF YOUR RELIGION?
    “Let him who has done this be removed from among you.” (1 Corinthians 1:13)

    The Holy Spirit commands respect.
    If someone annoys you, The Holy Spirit brings you the ‘grace’ to judge – and the right to punish harshly.

    Anyone who annoys you, or who disagrees with you is automatically sinning and is therefore worthy of judgement.

    This is transparently nothing but a parlor trick!
    With deadly consequences:

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine and execute them in front of me” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)
    The fact that it is in a parable does nothing to diminish the depravity of the lesson.

  • @William,

    “Homosexual behavior is offensive to God and his people.”

    Yes because God is an ignorant bigot and ‘his people’ admire that quality about him very much.

    “Kill my enemies” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

    Shame on you.

  • @David,

    “a grave sin against God is self-hatred.”

    Not true! Good grief.
    At least learn what your religion preaches. It is nothing but abjection and self-hatred:

    “Hate your parents…hate yourself, hate your very life or you are not worthy of me.” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)

  • @William,

    “Did Jesus say if you love me, you will keep my commandments?”

    So why don’t you love Jesus? You are clearly not practicing his commandments since you are not on Death Row.

    I know that you are not on Death Row because you have access to a computer.

    Did you run away from the police? Are you in hiding?

    Jesus includes Leviticus.
    Have you followed the Commands of Leviticus?

  • @William,

    “will Africa lead the world to salvation? Might be God’s plan.”

    Yup.
    Because there are some very Catholic countries in Africa and things have gone very well there!

    Oops.
    Not really.
    Rwanda was the most Catholic in Africa and the priests and nuns decided to kill half their population (800,000 people slaughtered by Catholics) because they had been told BY JESUS to kill the other tribes:

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their king and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

  • @Robert Brown,

    “He knows there is a God now…”

    Shame on you.
    You don’t know that.

    Furthermore, why are you ‘sad’ about it? I thought you believed in God’s judgement? I thought you supported God’s laws and rules 100%?

    You have nothing at all to be sad about – that nonbeliever got exactly what he deserved and you should BE HAPPY that God’s Universe is functioning perfectly!

    Your religion is childish and it shows.

    You are like the cowardly 8 year old kid in the school yard who just made friends with the 10 year old BULLY!
    And you are warning all the other kids
    to give their lunch money to the big bad bully like you did – because that bully is your personal friend.

    Dictatorial, Theocratic Nazi worship.

    Good grief! What a wormy, slimy way to be.

  • @Reverend Joseph,

    That is not true. You of all people should know that Jesus said, “If you love me you will follow my commands” and he listed
    “do not defraud” which is Leviticus 19:13.

    Now if Jesus is demanding that everyone follow the Laws of Leviticus that would include “Kill Homosexuals” (Leviticus 20:13)

    Don’t lie to us that Jesus had nothing to say about Homosexuals when he was explicit about following Leviticus.

  • @Reverend Joseph,

    If you are a real reverend, You are being irresponsible. Or just lying.

    Jesus was explicit about following Leviticus!

    Jesus said “Follow my commands if you love me” (Mark 10:19)
    and Jesus listed SOME of these commands – one of which was “do not defraud” (Leviticus 19:13).

    So JESUS EXPLICITLY WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO INCLUDE THE LAWS OF LEVITICUS.

    IT IS OBVIOUS that he could only have meant all of the implications of this!
    Or it is an oversight of Jesus himself!!!

    “Kill Homosexuals” (Lev. 20:13)

    Christianity is a complete blunder!

  • EXACTLY!

    Jesus was clear about who were NOT his neighbors:

    “They are fools!” – JESUS (Matthew 5:22)
    “They are dogs!” – JESUS (Matthew 15:26)
    “they are swine!” – Jesus (Matthew 7:6)

  • It is a tough question and I think that we need to grow in faith, hope and mainly in love to be able to handle such question without changing the true teaching but welcoming the lost sheep too. If we are not able to welcome everyone like Jesus did, then we should ask ourselves whether it is really the will of God that we close our door to some people. Let us remain in prayer and give our trust to our leaders in faith so that the Holy Spirit enlighten them in this long process of discerning the most suitable way. And we ask also Mary Seat of Wisdom to intercede fruitfully for them because they need that.

  • Oh my head
    Goes round and round
    Watching Saints fly
    And not touch the ground

    Gay or straight
    I do not care
    I’m just thankful I am here
    And they are there

    And from my little
    Agnostic abode
    I thank God or whoever
    I’m not burdened with such a load

    🙂

  • The only reason the “The popes have apologised, bishops have resigned, priests have been de-roped” is that they have been forced to. They have not done so willingly.
    Instead offenders have been hidden, excuses made and bribes paid.

    This is not just one or two errant priests, it’s a whole network!
    And it is not just the Catholic Clergy that have done this, the Protestant church has as much abuse on their hands.

  • You are forgetting to love your enemies and turn the other cheek, Max. Jesus didn’t come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

  • @Robert,

    “You are forgetting to love your enemies and turn the other cheek, Max”

    Parlor tricks.

    People who look in the bible
    for instructions on how to behave
    are looking for permission from God for whatever good or horrible thing they already wanted to do.

    If it is kind it is no problem for anyone.
    But if it is unkind – those murderous decisions have HOLY SANCTION from Jesus himself:

    JESUS – I WILL DISMEMBER PEOPLE WITH A SWORD
    “The master shall cut him to pieces” – Jesus (Luke 12)
    JESUS describes what he intends to do to his own enemies.

    JESUS – I SHALL RETURN TO EXECUTE MY ENEMIES
    “..bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King, and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    JESUS – YOU SHOULD DROWN THEM
    “Drown him with a millstone” (Matt 18:6)

    JESUS – KILL YOUR CHILDREN THE WAY GOD TOLD YOU TO
    “And why do you break the command of God
    for the sake of your tradition? …. ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ ” (Matthew 15:3)

    JESUS – YOU MUST JUDGE OTHERS HARSHLY
    “…if they are unworthy..REMOVE your blessing of peace.” – JESUS (Matt 10:13)

    JESUS – I CAME TO BURN UP THE WORLD AND DESTROY IT
    “I have come to bring FIRE…What constraints! I am impatient to bring NOT PEACE BUT DIVISION.” – Jesus (Luke 12:49-51)

    JESUS – HATE THOSE WHO LOVE YOU
    “Hate your parents…hate your life” – Jesus (Luke 14:26)

    JESUS – I’M A MAFIA GODFATHER. DO IT, OR ELSE.
    “Eat of my body” and “Be baptized and believe” or “Be condemned to Hell” – Jesus (John 6:53-54) (Mark 16:16).

    JESUS – I WILL KILL THE CHILDREN MYSELF
    “I shall kill her children with Death” – Jesus (REV. 1:22-23)

    JESUS – I WANT YOU TO LIVE IN A HOUSE FULL OF ENEMIES
    “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death…for ME.” – JESUS (Matthew 10:21)

    JESUS – I’M HERE TO RUIN YOUR LIFE AND ALL THAT YOU LOVE
    “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his daughter, and a daughter against her mother, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.” – JESUS (Matthew 10:35)

    JESUS – JUDGE OTHERS FOR GOD’S WRATH!
    “And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet AS A TESTIMONY AGAINST THEM.” – JESUS (Luke 9:3-5)

    JESUS ENDORSED the stoning laws – He rejected any change to the stoning laws of Moses.

    JESUS – KEEP ALL 500 STONING LAWS AS GOD COMMANDS
    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commands and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” – JESUS (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

    JESUS – STONE THESE PEOPLE TO DEATH:
    “not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law” – JESUS (Matthew 5:18-19)

    Gays
    Inhabitants of conquered cities
    Victims of rape
    People who work on Sunday
    Infidels
    Prostitutes
    Uncircumcised men
    Men who have sex with women who are menstruating
    Ignorers of Priests
    Ignorers of Sacraments
    people who drink blood
    People who eat peace offerings
    People who let food go bad
    People who do magic tricks
    People who go to temple while filthy
    Heretics
    Perjurors
    fortune tellers
    Spiritualists
    False prophets
    People who approach the Tabernacle
    Apostates
    Kidnappers
    Pretenders of witchcraft
    Pretenders of other religions
    Stubborn children
    Rebellious children
    Children who disagree with their parents
    Profligates
    Sorcerers
    Women who marry their daughters
    Adulterers
    Fornicators
    People who are irresponsible with their bulls
    People who pretend to worship idols
    People who actually worship idols
    Unruly children
    Slaves who run away
    Gluttons
    Drunkards
    Liars
    Slaves who disobey
    Wives who disobey
    Men who steal
    Women who steal
    Children who steal
    Children who pretend to be witches
    Masturbators
    etc…

    There would be nobody left.

  • You certainly seem to have a lot of hatred for something you claim not to believe. It appears more likely that you are lashing out against God because you don’t like what he is telling you.

  • And there goes any pretension that you and Doc disagree with the efforts (by American Bible thumpers) in Africa to murder and imprison gays under the color of law.

    More proof that Christianity is a great enabler of violent bigots.

  • 25 years of study coming to a conclusion that makes Frank look like an ignorant moron. So naturally Frank’s reaction is pure ridiculous denial.

  • But you do. You have a God who agrees with your point of view in all things. He even hates the same people as you do. How very convenient.

  • In your church. But nobody else has to take it seriously. Certainly not our laws or any other church which believes otherwise.

  • Christian love is not advocating the execution of others on the basis of what they are. But that is what you want. Jesus may not have despised anyone, but you certainly do. You already claim he would have despised gays. But then you change your story. Hence the excuses for such obvious bigotry against them.

    Being religious means never having to be consistent or honest if it gets to the desired ends

  • “There would be nobody left.”

    Which is the whole point of the law, Max. Nobody measures up to it.

  • @Shawnie,

    “Nobody can live up to it”

    Then how about we just call these things normal?

    Because religion just results in a world of dangerous Don Quixotes flailing at things that are not really there to win an unreachable (and undesirable) star.

    “Kill them” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

    Do really WANT this to be true?

  • @Robert Brown,

    “you are lashing out against God…”

    Because religion stinks.

    I wish I could ignore you religion folks 
but apparently your churches can’t keep out of our laws. And we Atheists really can’t let you keep doing that without a challenge.

    Some of us Atheist are speaking up because we are resisting the Christian Sharia Law.


    Christians seem to feel the need to push others around.

    Evangelicals are spending millions of dollars a year on faith-based intrusions like these:

    Forbidding access to life-saving medical procedures
    Granting corporations the right to enforcing a religion, be it Islamic, Christian or other.
    State Legalized Murder of Doctors – South Dakota


    Mandatory Trans-vaginal probes – Virginia Legislature



    Preaching the Bible in public schools – funded by Hobby Lobby


    Forced prayer at Government meetings – Supreme Court has allowed this.
    Blocking people from family planning – Texas, 5 other states.


    Obstruction of prescriptions – Illinois, Washington



    Discrimination as religious choice -Arizona (SB-1062)



    Anti-Gay laws – Texas
 & elsewhere


    Anti-women’s rights laws – Texas, Louisina, Virginia



    Biased Counseling laws – South Dakota


    Creationism to replace Science Education: 12 States
    “Intelligent Design” to replace Scientific theories

    So as long as you are funding these faith-based programs
    among others you are causing quite a bit of trouble.

    Don’t be angry that Jesus can’t seem to function without all these government programs.

    Keep your Jesus cult with your families and at church. Pray in public as long as you like – no problem.

    Just don’t include me, and we will get along fine.
 Thanks.

  • @Shawnie,

    If everybody is ‘sick’, NOBODY IS SICK!
    Everyone cannot be ‘sick’.

    What an awful philosophy! It pretends to ‘love’ everyone but indulges in the meanest sort of judgement.
    Such misery.

  • @Robert Brown,

    “Out of context”

    Okay – tell me the context then!!!
    Tell me when it is correct to rape a woman!!!
    Go!!!

    “SAVE THE WOMEN FOR RAPE”- YAHWEH

    I’m fascinated in your context!

  • Righteous! And you overlook the horrors that celibates committed in destroying our young? You are plainly, willingly and willfully blind to the sins and crimes that have been committed by your church leaders.

    No wonder they get off so lightly with the equally sinful and criminal oversight of people who dare to call concerned people “righteous!” It is people like this who make the sinful and criminal church leaders what they are. People like this in the pews are really blind sheep.

    Some condone the sins and crimes against our young and innocent who have had that innocence robbed from them. This makes the church evil.

  • The trouble is the 1929 concordat that recognized the Vatican as a state. It has played evil politics from that position and used every slippery tactic to get away with a form of murder that is just as evil as it practiced during the inquisitions.

    Auxiliary Bishop A. James Quinn of Cleveland, OH, was chosen by Benedict when he was still prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to play every dirty trick to prevent scandal from being exposed against a sinful and criminal U.S. church.

    The Vatican gang really thinks it is untouchable being an independent state. Guess what? Every death notice and every obituary for Quinn listed the cause of his death in the exact, same, three words: “apparent natural causes.” Why would Quinn’s physician or the county coroner, if he had none, not be able to certify the exact cause of Quinn’s death when he wasn’t buried until a full week after that death? Quinn’s death was as suspicious as his life as a priest and bishop.

    The sleazy behavior of church leaders, from the Vatican down to every diocese, has been promoted in the name of what the church considers the most heinous sin of all, exposing scandal against the church. The most criminal scandal of all has been to blatantly try to hide the scandalous behavior of church clergy at all levels.

  • “I wish I could ignore you religion folks 
but apparently your churches can’t keep out of our laws.”
    Max, it is really simple. Believers cannot, in good conscience, vote for sin. So, whenever something is put on a ballot, which Christians (or their elected representatives) perceive as sin, they look at it as voting for, or against sin. You do the same; you vote based on what you believe.
    Get over yourself Max. Surrender to your creator, before it is too late.

  • All you have to do is read it Max. In Det. 21: 10-14 it says when they were in war and captured some of the enemy, if a man saw among the captives a beautiful women, he could marry her. He had to take her home, not treat her as a slave, and allow her to morn her parents for a month before consummating the marriage. If it turned out that they didn’t get along, then he had to set her free and was not allowed to sell her because she was no longer a captive and he had married her.
    I know why you pull verses from the bible out of context and it is a shame that you are attempting to deceive others. There are severe warnings about this type of practice. Repent Max.

  • “I hate your disgusting god superstition, and for good reasons.”

    Yeah, but what are your reasons Bob. Tell us what you are so hostile toward God.

  • “But those mine enemies, who would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither and slay them before me,” said a Nobleman in a parable Jesus was narrating. XD XD XD

    Seriously, friend, you actually have to read a book before you can examine lines. The words of a character in a story someone tells is not really that convincing, and anyone who puts the time into a basic Google search on that verse will realize that.

    I know you don’t WANT to read it, but if you don’t you’ll just keep making easily avoidable mistakes. If you aren’t going to make sure you are intelligent on the topic, don’t speak on the topic. Limit yourself to topics you know about, or even better, advance your knowledge on the subjects you wish to discuss!!

  • Frankie, I am not the one advocating ostracizing, discriminating, imprisoning or executing anyone. That is all you and the company you keep.

    It is not hateful to be honest about the views of others.

  • They are “promoting evil” by existing. Therefore they should be banned from sight, imprisoned or executed. As you advocated what they want to do in Africa.

    Your version of Christianity is a joke. Christian love and compassion merely a cover for bigotry and vanity.

    Please stop any pretension that there is any socially redeeming point to your belief.

  • Robert, as already stated, it is your disgusting religious delusion that I oppose, and will continue to. As usual, all you can come up with to defend your myths about your vengeant, vicious sky creature are flawed arguments, and no evidence.

    So, again, Robert Brown, some questions. about your delusion. For once, try to actually consider the problems with your religion. Take a critical look at it, which you clearly have not had the courage to do so far.

    How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers?

    And furthermore, why is it that your pathetic sky creature, your “god”, a purportedly omnipotent creature, can’t do better than a book to get its message out, especially one for which the words can be so readily twisted. Where is your god’s website (and no, religious shill sites don’t count), and why can’t he even push a few tweets out? Furthermore, 2000+ years without a peep from him is more than sufficient grounds for doubt, to say the least.

    Pretty pathetic “god” that you’ve made for yourself there. Really, take a critical look at your religion for a change. It’s high time you did, Robert Brown.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Again, Robert, your “before it’s too late” line is just part of an old failed argument for your sky creature, known as Pascal’s Wager. Do look it up.

  • rob, all those who believe in other religions than yours, think yours is false. And they are right about yours, while you are right about theirs. However, I think that point will sail right over your head.

  • For those who believe in the God of the Old and New Testament we do not simply assign only the red letters in the new testament to Jesus but beleive that the entire bible was and is the inspired word of a Holy God and that He does not consider one sin greater than another but that all sin seperates us from Him and thus all sin is equally offensive to Him. While there are parts of scripture that many honest and devoted beleivers can hold different opinions upon there are others which there is no room for misinterpretation. The number one thing is that Christ Himself said that there is no other way to the Father except through Him. John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. When it comes to sin there can be no misinterpretation either. Keeping in mind all of us are sinners. But God does not desire for us to continue in our sin. I Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. eNeither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor 2homosexuals, nor 3sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were fsome of you. gBut you were washed, but you were 4sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
    So God does not give special attention to one over the other but to all. By doing this He does not say because all have sinned you can continue but to repent and turn from your ways and accept Him as Lord and Savior.

  • @Fourth Valley.

    “Seriously, friend, you actually have to read a book before you can examine lines.”

    SERIOUSLY FRIEND, If you weren’t such a sheep
    maybe you wouldn’t have so much wool over your eyes!
    Every single Christian answers LUKE 19:27 the same way:

    1. “It is just a parable, you fool.”

    2. “Jesus is just telling a story ABOUT SOMEBODY ELSE!”

    3. “WAIT…..OH, YEAH. THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS!
    JESUS IS EXPLAINING WHAT HE WILL COMMAND WHEN HE COMES BACK TO KILL HIS ENEMIES.”

    ________

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and EXECUTE THEM in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    THE ‘NOBLEMAN’ IS JESUS.
    AND JESUS KNOWS IT AS HE TELL THE STORY :

    EVERY INTERPRETATION OF LUKE 19
    SAYS THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS!

    Catholic Christ Notes – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS:
    http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=42&c=19

    BIBLE GATEWAY – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Luke/Controversy-Jerusalem

    BIBLE STUDY TOOLS – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/jamieson-fausset-brown/luke/luke-19.html

    MATTHEW HENRY’S COMPLETE COMMENTARY ON THE BIBLE – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS
    http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mhm/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=019

    CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS
    http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2009/06/09/what-does-the-parable-of-the-minas-mean/

    CATHOLIC BIBLE HUB – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS
    http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/19-27.htm

    THE MOST IMPORTANT INTERPRETATION IS THE ONE PROMINENT CHRISTIANS GAVE IT!!!

    Hitler:
    OUR Lord Jesus is A Soldier for God

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”
    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

    ANY defense of this disgraceful, immoral
    and pathetic JESUS is 2000 years too late!

  • I love that fact that you dispute the views of a figure long dead (gone from this plane of existence), a man who spoke in parabolas never stating his point clearly, a man who never forced anyone to follow him, never imposing his will on the common person, a man who is believed to part of God, the same God who saved a prostitute and not the rest of a city, the God who cast us out of paradise. Jesus said that who ever wished to follow him could as long as he carried his own cross. He never said you must believe in me, he said those you believe in me will be saved but also the man who practices good in his everyday life. You cannot pass judgment for him and I am yet to see a sign from him damming their existence, in fact homosexuality can be found in nature (about 1,500).

  • @Robert Brown,

    “Agree with God that you are a sinner in need of a savior.”

    What? But – based on what you tell me this is impossible.

    1. How does one agree with God? when Jesus says:
    “I am only here for the sick” – because I feel fine. Where is the sign that I am ‘sick’? I do good works. I clearly don’t need Jesus for anything.

    2. All are saved, anyway. Paul writes that ALL are saved regardless of what they think or believe: “just as all were cursed from Adam, all are saved through Jesus Christ”- (Corinthians 15:22).
    Original sin is wiped out for everyone – So you are incorrect about your religion and incorrect about what I need.

    3. In order to ‘agree’ with someone you must be able to trust them.
    God’s prophets proclaim that God is not trustworthy.
    “…God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”
    (2 Thessalonians 2:11)
    “O Lord, thou hast deceived me.” (Jeremiah 20:7)

    4. HOW DOES ONE GET A MESSAGE TO GOD?
    Understand:
    I don’t believe that God is real, in the same way you don’t believe Leprechauns are real.

    So…Suppose I told you to apologize to all the Leprechauns for not believing in them?
    What could you do?
    Where would you look to apologize to them?
    How could you be sure your apology was heard?
    What language do they understand?
    English?
    But the Leprechauns – according to some old scribblings – only spoke Hebrew and Aramaic; English didn’t even exist yet.
    How would Leprechauns understand your english apology?
    How would a leprechaun hear you if you don’t believe they have ears?
    Suppose you type out your apology on a computer?
    Would that work?
    How could you know the Leprechauns can see what you type?
    How could YOU KNOW they THAT THEY KNOW they are being addressed?

    If someone says something about Leprechauns in a diary – do Leprechauns hear it? Do Leprechauns read it?
    How do Leprechauns get the information?

    5. HOW CAN THE BIBLE BE CORRECT ABOUT WHAT GOD WANTS IF IT SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW WHAT GOD WANTS?
    “The Almighty is beyond our reach” (Job 37:23)
    “We Know Him NOT” (Job 36:26)

    For all you know – God wants honesty out of people instead of commitment to Jesus!?
    Maybe the whole bible is a test to see who can be honest!

    You obviously have no idea
    how absolutely bananas you sound!

  • @Robert Brown,

    “it says when they were…captured…if a man saw among the captives a beautiful women, he could marry her.”

    GRAB THE PRETTY ONE! – A man can seize any lovely lady he captures. Congratulations on your disgusting inhumanity so far…

    “He had to take her home, not treat her as a slave”

    DISGUSTING! “take her home” means against her will exactly like a slave! ANYTHING that follows is ENSLAVEMENT, KIDNAPPING AND FORCIBLE RAPE!

    “and allow her to mourn her parents for a month”

    She has been a captive for a month – A SLAVE!

    “before consummating the marriage.”

    SEX HER UP AFTER a MARRIAGE IN WHICH SHE HAD NO SAY!
    FORCIBLE RAPE – BLESSED BY YOUR GOD.

    ” If it turned out that they didn’t get along, then he had to set her free and was not allowed to sell her because she was no longer a captive and he had married her.”

    YOUR GOD IS AN INHUMAN, DESPICABLE MONSTER!

    THANKS FOR THE CONTEXT.
    YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.

    AND YOU THINK I SHOULD REPENT??????

    GO APOLOGIZE TO THE WOMEN IN YOUR FAMILY FOR YOUR INHUMANITY TOWARD THEM.

  • Robert Brown, again, it is your disgusting Christian delusions, not your non-existent “god”, that I oppose, and for good reasons already stated. Your religion promotes bigotry and includes direct instructions for horrid violence.

    Tell us your evidence for your god, something that you have been unable to do thus far. He would be a pretty nasty being to follow, given these instructions he purportedly gives you from your nasty Christian instruction manual. Note that these are from both foul testaments, and note the following text about context issues too.

    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
    18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

    1 Timothy 2:11
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”

    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Leviticus 25
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don’t get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

    Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it’s in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god’s mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

    And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your “god” couldn’t come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken “out of context”, and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you’ve made for yourself.

    So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Robert, that is a disgusting argument including an allusion to the flawed argument known as Pascal’s Wager. Look that up and learn.

    Your bigoted religion is an awful one to follow, since it includes awful instructions such as these, from both foul testaments:

    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
    18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

    1 Timothy 2:11
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”

    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Leviticus 25
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don’t get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

    Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it’s in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god’s mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

    And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your “god” couldn’t come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken “out of context”, and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you’ve made for yourself.

    So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • @Robert Brown,

    “Believers cannot, in good conscience, vote for sin.”

    Shame on you.

    HAVE YOU APOLOGIZED YET?
    to the women in your family for your support of the God of Forcible Rape?

    “I create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things. (ISAIAH 45:7)

    THE LORD COMMANDS RAPE
    TO PUNISH … THE MAN!

    “You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and RAPE HER.” – (Deuteronomy 28:30)

    For shame, these primitive tracts of inhumanity!
    Shame!

  • Robert Brown, yet again you trot out references to the flawed argument known as Pascal’s Wager in your vain attempts to support your delusion. Look it up and learn, for a change.

  • @Robert Brown,

    “repent”

    Me?
    For what?

    Your god should repent:

    JESUS – YOU SHOULD DROWN THEM
    “Drown him with a millstone” (Matt 18:6)

    Even I wouldn’t do that to a pedophile! I would put them in jail and keep them there.

    Shame on this god of yours.

  • @Thaddeus,

    “You want to always allude to it at every oppurtunity to bring the church and her priests to ridicule and shame.
    Well..we are sorry but we are all struggling.”

    Look. You are a bright guy – nice guy, probably.

    What are you doing defending this monstrously horrible institution devoted as it is to a MYTH! – THE MYTH is profoundly disgusting!

    You support a rapist, genocidal, enslaving killer ?
    Someone who – if he were human – would be worse than POL POT!

    GOD SAYS FATHERS MUST BURN DAUGHTERS TO DEATH
    AS HONOR KILLINGS.

    “And the daughter…if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

    Isn’t pride a sin? Isn’t killing a sin?
    Nope. Both are demands of the god.

    I appeal to your humanity. Please come to your senses.

  • @Thaddeus:

    “You need to understand the virtue of forgiveness”

    GOD SAYS FATHERS MUST BURN DAUGHTERS TO DEATH
    AS HONOR KILLINGS.

    “And the daughter…if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

    Where is the forgiveness in this
    Nightmare you defend?

  • Oh, I can call them normal all right. I also call them sick.

    Normal for the human race meant several millenia of universal slavery, infanticide and oppression of women, among other tremendous evils and cruelties. There is something fundamentally diseased about the “normal” human heart that makes all this possible.

    Do YOU really want to accept that “normality?”

  • @Shawnie,

    “Do YOU really want to accept that “normality?””

    1. What choice do we have? There is no evidence of a God an lots of evidence that we are all humans – some behave better than others regardless of gods and devils (apparently) since nobody has ever drawn an evil act directly to a real devil and nobody ever drew a good act directly to a god.

    2. If everyone is ‘sick’ what does ‘well’ mean? And how did someone determine this? That would be like saying ‘everyone with a head is sick’, but having never met any human without a head you cannot claim that would be an improvement!

    3. Decent behavior can be identified without a god’s intercession. We know this because there is no evidence of a GOD’S INTERCESSION and furthermore, plenty of evidence that we know these things thanks to evolution.

    4. WANT? Since when does what ‘you want’ determine the truth?
    Do you want to be a billionaire? I guess you are one then! Because you wanted it!

    “It would be very nice if there were a god who created the world and was a benevolent providence and if there were a moral order in the universe and an after-life – but it is very striking fact that all this is exactly as we are bound to wish it to be.”
    – Sigmund Freud

  • “Decent behavior can be identified without a god’s intercession. We know this because there is no evidence of a GOD’S INTERCESSION and furthermore, plenty of evidence that we know these things thanks to evolution.”

    Several millenia of prechristian human history do not bear this out. Sorry.

  • You are speaking like a brainless and hate-filled hypocrite here….about Satan and sin in 2014 ? Just exactly what are you waiting for with this Biblical trash ? Your “reward” in Heaven for being such a “wonderful” Christian and hating the gays so ? Are you anticipating angels with wings will be flying around in the clouds, all your deceased loved ones; family and friends will be there with you. Everyone is in total bliss, laughing and singing. Jesus stops by to pray and Chat. God is near the pearly gates admitting new dead souls in night and day….and this utopia will go on for eternity ? What a crock of brain-washed trash ! Think about it for a second….see how utterly mindless and ridiculous it is ? Now, if you still believe this deceitful garbage and are waiting to die so your soul can go to Heaven….you really are mentally ill !

  • You are speaking like a brainless and hate-filled hypocrite here….about Satan and sin in 2014 ? Just exactly what are you waiting for with this Biblical trash ? Your “reward” in Heaven for being such a “wonderful” Christian and hating the gays so ? Are you anticipating angels with wings will be flying around in the clouds, all your deceased loved ones; family and friends will be there with you. Everyone is in total bliss, laughing and singing. Jesus stops by to pray and Chat. God is near the pearly gates admitting new dead souls in night and day….and this utopia will go on for eternity ? What a crock of brain-washed trash ! Think about it for a second….see how utterly mindless and ridiculous it is ? Now, if you still believe this deceitful garbage and are waiting to die so your soul can go to Heaven….you really are mentally ill !

  • @Shawnie,

    “Several millenia of prechristian human history do not bear this out. Sorry.”

    NONSENSE!

    How do you think humans survived those hundreds of thousands of millennia? By killing everyone? You would not be here today!
    THERE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A MOSES! LET ALONE A JESUS OR A MARY OR A JOSEPH!

    Civilization prior to Christianity was in full bloom with all the positives and negatives we still have today.

    Hindu and Chinese philosophies predate Christianity by thousands of years and they spread peace, literature, medicine, music, science and technology LONG BEFORE Jesus ever burped!

    Without common decency and civilization the Jews wouldn’t have ever produced the dozens of ‘messiahs’ who were running around in those days!

    Not until the Tai-Ping Rebellion,
    where CHRISTIANS slaughtered 45 Million NON-CHRISTIANS
    had the Chinese seen such diabolical mass evil!

    Claiming the world was uncivilized before Jesus is ridiculous.
    You are disqualifying yourself from rational discourse.

  • “How do you think humans survived those hundreds of thousands of millennia? By killing everyone?”

    No, by doing just what Jesus said they did — looking out for their own and dehumanizing the other. That is what comes naturally to fallen humanity–which is why for all our Judeo-Christian-inspired appreciation for “loving our neighbor” we can not seem to root out tribalism and the tendency for “people to rise against people”. Of course, if we ditch Judeo-Christian values altogether and return to prechristian values (as Nietzsche advocated) then we should all be good with that.

    And your portrayal of the Tai-Ping Rebellion is the ultimate silliness. That was the result of a false Christ who claimed divinity and thus would never have fooled actual followers of Christ. EXACTLY the sort of whom Jesus prophesied: “Take heed that no one deceive you. For many will come in My name saying “I am Christ” and will deceive many.” You’re also inflating the actual death toll, and attributing all of them to so-called Christians killing non-Christians when in fact both sides suffered losses, most of which were due to disease and food shortages as is true of most wars.

    Get some education, for crying out loud.

  • Come on, Shawnie5,

    “by doing just what Jesus said they did — looking out for their own and dehumanizing the other. That is what comes naturally to fallen humanity”

    No – That is called ‘tribalism’ and it is exactly what Jesus practiced:
    “I am here only for the children of Israel”- Jesus

    “if we ditch Judeo-Christian values altogether and return to prechristian values (as Nietzsche advocated) then we should all be good with that.”

    Eliminating ‘Judeo-Christian values’ is exactly how peace came to every peaceful country on earth!
    Sweden
    Denmark
    Netherlands
    Belgium
    Switzerland
    Australia
    New Zealand
    etc….

    JUDEO CHRISTIAN VALUES have incited war and misery from Jerusalem to every capital that ever tried them.

    ” your portrayal of the Tai-Ping Rebellion is the ultimate silliness. That was the result of a false Christ who claimed divinity and thus would never have fooled actual followers of Christ.”

    Of course. Those false Christs…starting with the first one!
    “Execute them in front of me”- Jesus (Luke 19:27)…Riiiiiiight.

    “For many will come in My name saying “I am Christ” and will deceive many.”

    That is known as a con.

    “You’re also inflating the actual death toll, and attributing all of them to so-called Christians killing non-Christians when in fact both sides suffered losses, most of which were due to disease and food shortages as is true of most wars.”

    And that is your defense for why God did not intercede to bring the ‘right Christ’ at the ‘right opportunity’?

    “Get some education, for crying out loud.”

    Good grief. You make these wild claims about god – I fail to see how education matters in your instance in the least! What education is needed to make your claims? They are all based on faith! Which is like basing an argument on the properties of invisible fluffernutter.

  • Please my humble request is for the Gay right, LGBT or wat so Eva to end over there in d western world, please leave Africa out of this nonsense, Our culture forbids such act. if this gays and lesbian cannot learn from d case of Soddom and Gomorah, then probably they are deaf and dumb and without eyes. as for the bishops, u better remain dia with those discussion, don’t try coming home with d idea of giving Gays a fraternal space, bcos we do not intend to give them any space, All we in Africa is saying is No No No No to Gay rights. the are only a bunch of abnormal people DAT need rehabilitation like d drug addicts.

  • “Eliminating ‘Judeo-Christian values’ is exactly how peace came to every peaceful country on earth! etc,,”

    Hardly one citizen of any of those countries you listed would agree that Judeo-Christian values have been eliminated at all. Whether they personally believe in a deity or not, they all know quite well that their laws, cultures and ethical systems are based upon Christianity. Something you, again, would know if were you more educated.

    “I am here only for the children of Israel”- Jesus

    To the Jew first and then to the Gentile, Max — something you would have to have read the entire NT to know. The kingdom of God was offered first to the Jews to whom it had been promised (who promptly had the king executed) then to the Gentiles as well–as was prophesied and as the parable of the king’s banquet illustrated. “I have other sheep which are not of this fold, and I must bring them in also.” — Jesus.

    “And that is your defense for why God did not intercede to bring the ‘right Christ’ at the ‘right opportunity’?”

    He did exactly that, at the appointed time in A.D. 32. And He warned that there would be no second appearance until the end, so don’t even bother chasing after more christs. Too bad so many can’t follow simple directions.

  • @Shawnie:

    Want to know what ‘Judeo-Christian’ values add up to?

    Just look at the land of Judea. They are so full of hate for each other thanks to Mono-Theism, their only wish is the end of the world – Armageddon.

    You are welcome to it.
    Just keep it out of our laws. Nightmarish nonsense.

  • @ PsiCop

    “I just don’t find them to be credible arbiters of “sin.”

    “…the bishops have a lot of in-house “sin” to condemn, but they don’t do a very good job of it. In fact, they’re prone to denying its existence, or to blaming anyone and everyone else for it…”

    Extremely ‘excellent’ observations.

    “Maybe that’s just me … cold-hearted cynical godless agnostic heathen that I am. I guess such important things go right over my head or something.”

    You don’t write and speak like a ‘cold-hearted…etc… that I am. No, important things are ‘not’ going over your head.

    Keep up your good observations and don’t hesitate to tell others about them.

  • Work out your own salvation or understanding, as Paul wrote, and the words and opinions of ecclesiastics will fade.

    This is essential in enabling and encouraging us to move forward with allowing the ‘spirit’ to lead and guide us in the future.

    The kingdom of God is not in word (the Bible), but power…it’s not food and drink…but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit….Paul.

    The kingdom of God is within you…..Jesus.

    The great prayer says, “thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”.

    As time goes on we’ll learn more about these things concerning “the kingdom” and then we’ll learn not to be so enthusiastic about anything or everything that’s written down from old times.

    The spirit and the spirit alone is all that really matters.

  • @Billysees,

    “The spirit and the spirit alone is all that really matters.”

    As an Atheist, I live by this.
    I love the soaring poetry of human struggle expressed through literature and music and empathy and compassion.

    And I understand words like ‘Soul’ and ‘spirit’ as very connected to music and beauty. I don’t see spirit as a real thing (of course) – but life has plenty of mystery so I don’t object to any language humans have created to deal with these marvelous emotions and yearnings.

    A good cherry from the bible:

    “Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things.”
    (Phillipians 4:8)

    Now that is a passage I agree with.. 🙂

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