Beliefs Culture Institutions

Vatican stuns Catholic world with greater openness toward gays and lesbians

Pope Francis greets auditors of the Synod on the Family as he arrives for the afternoon session at the Vatican Oct. 10. Photo courtesy of Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (RNS) The world’s Catholic bishops on Monday (Oct. 13) signaled a move toward greater tolerance of gays and lesbians, an about-face so unexpected that leaders of the church’s right wing called it a “betrayal.”

Pope Francis greets auditors of the extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the family as he arrives for the afternoon session at the Vatican Oct. 10. Photo courtesy of Catholic News Service

Pope Francis greets auditors of the Synod on the Family as he arrives for the afternoon session at the Vatican Oct. 10. Photo courtesy of Catholic News Service

Noting that gays and lesbians have “gifts and qualities” to offer the church, the midpoint assessment reflected the impact that Pope Francis seems to be having on the two-week Synod on the Family as he pushes for a more open, less doctrinaire approach.

“Are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing them a fraternal space in our communities?” said the communique from the nearly 200 bishops and lay delegates. “Often they wish to encounter a church that offers them a welcoming home.

“Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?”

While they reaffirmed their opposition to gay marriage and same-sex unions, the bishops’ groundbreaking document nonetheless said homosexuality called for “serious reflection” and described it as an “important educative challenge” for the church.

The bishops also foreshadowed a simpler approach to marriage annulments and responding to cohabitation.

The document was presented to the media by Hungarian Cardinal Peter Erdo, the synod’s relator general, flanked by other cardinals.

While no decisions or doctrinal changes were announced, the report was described as an “earthquake” by John Thavis, journalist and author of the best-selling book, “The Vatican Diaries.”

The approach provoked an angry reaction from a dozen bishops before they left the synod hall and a fiery debate between the church’s right and left flanks.

“This is a stunning change in the way the Catholic Church speaks of gay people,” said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit author and editor at large for the Catholic magazine America.

“The synod is clearly listening to the complex, real-life experiences of Catholics around the world and seeking to address them with mercy, as Jesus did.”

While reinforcing marriage between a man and a woman, the bishops noted that gay partnerships had merit — moving toward the more inclusive approach signaled by Pope Francis when he famously responded “Who am I to judge?” when asked about homosexuality.

The shift in tone for a 2,000-year-old institution that officially maintains that homosexuality is “intrinsically disordered” surprised Marianne Duddy-Burke, head of DignityUSA, the country’s largest Catholic gay and lesbian organization.

“The specific language used about lesbian and gay people is astonishingly new,” Duddy-Burke said from Boston.

“The recognition that ‘homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community’ is a far different starting point than saying we are ‘disordered,’ which has been the mantra for almost 30 years. That positive language is more hopeful.”

The progressive group Call to Action said it was encouraged by the report, describing it as the “breath of fresh air” that Francis had brought to Rome and that has inspired many to hope for change.

“We pray that this positive shift in tone and language will also mean changes in hurtful and dated policies,” said Call to Action Executive Director Jim FitzGerald.

The document — and the real or implied changes that may or may not materialize — stunned church conservatives. The Catholic group Voice of the Family, which represents 15 organizations in eight countries, called the document a “betrayal.”

“Those who are controlling the synod have betrayed Catholic parents worldwide,” said Voice of the Family co-founder John Smeaton.

“We believe that the synod’s mid-way report is one of the worst official documents drafted in Church history. Catholic families are clinging to Christ’s teaching on marriage and chastity by their fingertips.”

KRE/AMB END McKENNA

About the author

Josephine McKenna

Josephine McKenna has more than 30 years' experience in print, broadcast and interactive media. Based in Rome since 2007, she covered the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI and election of Pope Francis and canonizations of their predecessors. Now she covers all things Vatican for RNS.

94 Comments

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  • I wonder how this affects National Organization for Marriage – if at all. I suspect that the Church will make more progress once the pope emeritus dies. The Cardinal Ratzinger is responsible for much of the harsh language.

  • 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 lists drunkards,coveters/the greedy,slander/lying/gossip,
    swindlers,thieves,the sexually immoral,idolaters along with the homosexuals
    so the church needs to talk about all sin not just gay marriage/abortion. What
    about takin the Lords name in vain,pride,being mean/sharp tongues,jealousy,
    gambling? Those sins get swpet under the rug along with gettin drunk and
    premarital sex. Ephesians 5:18 says don’t get drunk and 1 Corinthians 6:10
    says all drunkards go to hell including people who get drunk with/on strong
    wine because the wine Jesus made was from the fruit of the vine/new wine
    and diluted plus the Bible also says don’t get drunk on strong wine so people
    who get drunk with strong wine are also wrong/go to hell. If you say you love
    Jesus then don’t follow the Bible/religion no Truth is in you! We must Repent!

  • Karla, to be fair, along with all its bigotry, your Christian book of nasty AKA the bible has all manner of nasty commands to do violent or otherwise awful acts in it, for weak sheeple like you to follow. Here are just a few examples in some quotes from both foul testaments. Note the following text about context issues too:

    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
    18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

    1 Timothy 2:11
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”

    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Leviticus 25
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don’t get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

    Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it’s in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god’s mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

    And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your “god” couldn’t come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken “out of context”, and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you’ve made for yourself.

    So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Careful. People aren’t likely to agree with such a tone. Only through respectful discourse can you change hearts and minds.

    And one of the scriptures you are citing is, in the context of the verses around it, clearly a metaphor. So careful, for when you include an invalid quotation like that, it throws any potentially valid claims you have made into question.

    Only through kindness, understanding, and being careful to examine verses thoroughly and avoid misquotes can you change people’s hearts and minds.

  • No, false. My quotes are direct, and note especially the comments in my post about context. I reject your invalid guidance.

    Again, this is what the nasty Christian users’ manual says. Read especially the context remarks:

    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
    18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

    1 Timothy 2:11
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”

    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Leviticus 25
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don’t get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

    Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it’s in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god’s mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

    And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your “god” couldn’t come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken “out of context”, and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you’ve made for yourself.

    So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Indeed. We must repent, without judging others. Matthew 7:1
    We must magnify and focus on our own sins, instead of blinding ourselves with focus on the sins of others. Matthew 7:3
    We must not seek to correct the sins of others until our own are taken care of. John 8:7

  • Fourty Valley-Amen! That’s why we need to Repent so we can
    preach the Truth with power! We all must Repent!

  • There is one quote where the context is obviously metaphor, and cannot be interpreted literally. If you dig a bit, you’ll see what it is. I suggest removing it, as it will detract from the value of the other quotes.

    And again, work on the tone. Without treating people’s beliefs respectfully, you hit the Backfire Effect, and only make them more fanatical:
    http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

    Unless your goal is to make people more zealous??

  • @Fourth Valley,

    “We must repent”

    But why? Aren’t the lesbian haters simply follow the proper commands of God?

    GOD SAYS FATHERS MUST BURN DAUGHTERS TO DEATH AS HONOR KILLINGS.

    “And the daughter…if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

    Isn’t pride a sin? Isn’t killing a sin?
    Nope. Both are demands of god.

  • @Fourth Valley,

    “Only through respectful discourse can you change hearts and minds.”

    Respectful and loving.
    Just like your Bible:

    JESUS – I WILL DISMEMBER PEOPLE WITH A SWORD
    “The master shall cut him to pieces” – Jesus (Luke 12)
    JESUS describes what he intends to do to his own enemies.

    GOD – WOMAN, DO NOT STRAY, OR I’M GOING TO KILL YOUR BABY

    “If a man’s wife goes astray….The Lord shall abort your baby” (Numbers 5:1-27)

    I just occasionally like to point out
    What it is the Pope defends (all of the above) and what his god really is all about (all of the above). Gotta love that lord. Not.

  • @Max

    Oh Max!! Why quote Leviticus at me?? Are we being presumptuous again?? In my Faith’s book of Law, death penalty is not acceptable for such things. The book says only in cases of murder or arson, and even then, life sentence is also acceptable and encouraged where possible.

    It’s interesting that you presume the same things about me after numerous corrections. Leviticus is not my book of Laws.

  • @Max

    “Just like your Bible”

    Now I know we’ve had this discussion before…

    MY “bible” actually doesn’t contain that text. Because it is in fact another book. XD

  • @Fourth Valley,

    “Without treating people’s beliefs respectfully, you hit the Backfire Effect…”

    Right. Let’s look at your beliefs with some respect.
    Let’s respectfully consider this one, for example:

    GOD SAYS – CUT OFF YOUR WIFE’S HAND IF SHE TOUCHES ANOTHER MAN’S PENIS.

    “If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and SEIZING HIS GENITALS, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.” (DEUT. 25:11)

    No it is my respectful opinion that this belief is dangerous to women for a number of reasons:

    1. I gently suggest, with respect, that cutting off a woman’s hand is immoral under any circumstances unless it is to save her life.

    2. I gently further suggest, with respect, that women do have a strong interest in sex and this is natural and it is not fair to treat that sexuality as if it is wrong. Women should be free to have a sexual partner outside of a marriage and that will certainly lead to the touching of another man’s penis.

    3. I gently and respectfully suggest that ‘showing no pity’ is inhumane and (respectfully) monstrous. I respectfully recommend a COMPLETE RETRACTION of that part of your belief because Pity and Mercy are not Divine so much as HUMANE and moral.

    4. I respectfully ask that you please consider having “pity” whenever you enact this rule as the poor woman deserves at least that.

    Was that respectful enough?
    Or was I wrong that you actually believe in God?

  • Really?? Perhaps you don’t pay attention to handles then. This is NOT the first time you’ve replied to a comment of mine assuming I am Christian. You’ve also once assumed I was Muslim. XD

    I’ve attempted to correct each time, but perhaps you have forgotten. It is funny though, so continue if you must.

  • @Fourth Valley,

    “Indeed. We must repent, without judging others. Matthew 7:1
    We must magnify and focus on our own sins, instead of blinding ourselves with focus on the sins of others. Matthew 7:3
    We must not seek to correct the sins of others until our own are taken care of. John 8:7”

    This is from the New Testament. Therefore, Leviticus is your law:

    “Follow the commands [of Leviticus]…Do Not Defraud” (Mark 10:19, direct reference to Leviticus 19:13)

    Jesus quotes Leviticus and clearly wants his followers to adhere to it. Reject Jesus if you like,
    but don’t tell me you can be a Jesus follower if your book is not also Leviticus.

    Not my problem.

  • Unless, say, the law becomes invalidated by later prophets. Or if you bring the concept of “corruption” into play. Or any numerous factors. I don’t belong to a faith that says God literally wrote the bible. It can and is subject to human error, additions by corrupt clergy, misunderstanding, etc.

    That’s why we have a new book of Law, that replaces the rest. And in 850 years or so it will be replaced once more.

    There’s a much more diverse portfolio of belief then simply Fundamentalist Christians and Atheists. So one shouldn’t assume that someone falls into one of the two camps.

  • OH, THE WEIRDNESS OF CHRISTIANITY….

    🙂
    NO PENIS, NO CHURCH!
    “He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his penis cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.”(Deuteronomy 23:1)

    🙁
    BUT GOD DOESN’T LIKE BIG PENISES
    THEY MAKE PEOPLE LUSTY:
    “There she lusted after her lovers, whose penises were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.” (Ezekiel 23:20)

    Good grief.
    This is the word of the lord.

  • Doc Anthony-Amen! People who are haughty/refuse to Repent are in
    for a rude awakening on judgment day! We must Repent!

  • @Fourth Valley,

    “And in 850 years or so it will be replaced once more..”

    Thanks for admitting the Bible is not absolute truth and that we have absolutely no reason to think there is anything in it that is true.

    “He is risen” is nonsense.
    “He was crucified” is nonsense.
    “God is love” is nonsense.
    “God requires blood sacrifice” is nonsense.

    Now that you have disowned the bible as anything more than a book of bad guesses, I hope you will stop using it to defend the Pope of Pedophilia and the Gods who defend ‘faith’.

    Thanks.

  • @ Max

    Fourth Valley has mentioned before, he is of the Baha’i faith. They have their own views of the Bible which differ greatly from the “Big 3 Abrahamic faiths”

  • You’re funny, Max.

    Why should you care that a non-Christian has said the bible is not the absolute word of God??

    Hmmm, and I don’t recall trying to defend the pope with biblical scripture… fairly certain that never happened.

  • Better off reading the previous line as to get proper context:

    “Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.”

    If you got out of Ezekiel 16:50 some vague proscription of sapphic relations, you were not reading it honestly or in context. But your method is essential for finding loopholes and workarounds for “Love thy neighbor”. Why look for a total message when you can quote mine for personal validation. 🙂

  • The Bible is the Word of God and it says that hell is very real. The
    Bible says not to subtract from it or you go to hell so people who
    teach there is no hell go to hell cause of that teaching! Ironic. In the
    beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word
    was God then the Word/Jesus became flesh. The Trinity is real and
    anyone who says that Jesus was created/there is no hell seperates
    themselves from the Truth/Biblical Christianity and will go to hell.

  • In the beginning was the Word/the Word was with God and the Word was God
    then the Word/Jesus became flesh! The Bible is the Word of God! The Bible
    says not to subtract from it or you go to hell so people who teach there is no
    hell go to hell cause of that teaching! Ironic. Jesus was not created/was there
    from the beginning/is part of the Trinity so when someone teaches there is no
    hell and Jesus was created they seperate themselves from the Truth/go to hell.

  • @Larry,

    Wow – thanks for the link. I read a lot about Bahai several months ago.
    Fourth Valley should have just told me he/she is Bahai.
    Instead he/she plays dodgeball.

    Bahai is nonsense. It is a way to validate the (supposed) nicer messages of the bible without the responsibility of the consequences of Jesus’ of Yahweh’s attributed preachments – which are despicable.

    Bahai, is like trying to understand Pol Pot’s good side.

    People who are empathetic find it appealing because they want to insist there IS a good side to ‘faith’ when there isn’t.

  • @Fourth Valley,

    You know, you could have just told me you are Bahai.
    I’m rather well-versed in religion. You never said, “I am Bahai.”

    You probably knew that my objection to religion is not the interpretations of the Bible – but the FAITH in god.
    Bahai uses the Bible for its defense of the good but never the responsibility for the bad – it is particularly wiggly that way and just as irresponsible as any other ‘faith’.

  • Fourth Valley,

    You said to someone else’s post:
    “And one of the scriptures you are citing is, in the context of the verses around it, clearly a metaphor.”

    That was YOU defending the Old Testament.

    Murder is dictated in the Old Testament and calling ‘murder’ only a metaphor is exactly the kind if irresponsibility I am talking about.
    Faith in gods leads to such nonsense. You think you are off the hook but you are not. It is immoral.

  • “Fourth Valley should have just told me he/she is Bahai.
    Instead he/she plays dodgeball. ”

    Typically, my beliefs are not relevant to discussions on hand. Some people don’t define themselves soley by their religious views or lack therof, hence me not calling myself “Baha’i Steve” and only bringing up my beliefs when it is relevant. I don’t try to convert people to my way of thinking and thus don’t bring up my beliefs in every comment like many people do.

    And it is admittedly fun to watch you repeatedly assume the same thing incorrectly.

    “Bahai is nonsense. It is a way to validate the (supposed) nicer messages of the bible without the responsibility of the consequences of Jesus’ of Yahweh’s attributed preachments – which are despicable.”

    Yeah, there’s probably folks who believe it for the reasons you list, but I’m not one of them.

    “People who are empathetic find it appealing because they want to insist there IS a good side to ‘faith’ when there isn’t.”

    Typically, though, I don’t think that bad elements in ANY set of beliefs (religious or not) discredit the whole thing. Richard Dawkins has many good points on evolution and the importance of science. He’s also a sexist, but that fact doesn’t discount the good parts of his viewpoints. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

  • Karla, your post merely consists of the fallacy known as circular reasoning, and can be rejected as such. Furthermore, the bible presents your sky god as a very vicious and vengeful being. I do not consider such a supposed being, whose doctrine includes human rights abuse and all manner of bigotry and horror, worth of worship.

  • I don’t think that bad elements in ANY set of beliefs (religious or not) discredit the whole thing.

    These are matters of life and death. God either exists or he does not.
    If your God claims happen to include “Dos and Don’ts” you are treading on very thin Ice.

    Richard Dawkins is a person who tries to pursue truth – but he doesn’t claim GOD on his side so we can safely NOT DO what he recommends in any area where we disagree with him without having kill people over it!

    That is the immoral nugget of your argument.

  • Yes, just through proof-texts out there like hand grenades and BOOM! everyone will see the light. Honestly, don’t you get tired of repeating the same discredited ideas over and over and over again? Or do you get a little thrill each time you can reassure yourself of salvation by being criticized by others? I’m just curious. There’s got to be a reason for empty rhetorical gestures like posting Bible quotes, since a concern for the gospel or the truth surely isn’t one.

  • Very good Karla, the bible is the written word of God and Jesus is the word of God. Amen and God bless.

  • Life or Death??

    Haha, how so?? Not all religions advocate killing people who disagree, many do not in fact. And some non-religious beliefs advocate killing people who disagree. Whether a belief system includes a God or Gods does not intrinsically determine whether or not that system includes violence.

    My grandmother was forced out of various countries in her youth for dissenting with non-religious yet still very violent ideologies.

  • Fourth Valley

    1 Corinthians 11:32
    But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

  • “You know, you could have just told me you are Bahai.”

    Why would I?? I don’t make my beliefs my whole identity. I was simply responding to the incorrect assumptions made on your part by asserting “I am not Christian” and “I am not Muslim”. What I really AM is no matter to counteracting those false assumptions. I can see how some people place ALL importance on the labels we give ourselves, but that is not me.

    “I’m rather well-versed in religion.”

    I… don’t know if I believe that. You’ve cited the Koran’s “Kill them where ye find them” even AFTER I pointed out that the verse before and after make the context unquestionably self-defense. I’ve seen you debunk a type of predestination that no one believes in. I’m not sure I see evidence of that claim.

    “Bahai uses the Bible for its defense of the good but never the responsibility for the bad”

    We don’t really use the Bible in the way you think. It’s different laws for different time periods buried under corruption. It has value, as anything that is not 100% accurate does, but the only things we consider authoritive is our “current scriptures.

    “That was YOU defending the Old Testament.”

    First, the verse I was referring to was not Old Testament. Second, I defend nothing but logic. If you incorrectly cite someone I have absolutely no love for, say if you quote something from the Sultan Abdülaziz, who persecuted the early Baha’is, and cite his quote incorrectly, I will STILL call you on it. Not in defense of Abdülaziz, but because I believe that irrational arguments are damaging to rational arguments they support. Criticism against religion is good and healthy, as my Faith’s scriptures teach. But misquotes and poor arguments detract from and weaken the good ones. Personally, I hope you remain an Atheist, but I hope you learn better skills at debate and argument so you can challenge my beliefs. So far, when I see a post from you it usually takes me moments on Google before I see it to be a poor argument. You’ll quote from something a Nobleman says in a parable given by Jesus as if it was Jesus’ own words. You’ll quote “Slay them where you find them” from Surah 2:191 while blatantly ignoring what Surah 2:190 says clarifying 2:191 to be purely about self-defense. People will see these kind of arguments you make, fact check them, and see that they are false. Then they will simply assume that everything you say in the future is false, even if you have potentially good points to make. You cannot build a good argument on faulty logic, even if you also use good logic and even if your conclusion is true.

    I sincerely hope you avoid bad quoting. It does not help reason nor atheism, nor does it help curb extremism. If anything, bad arguments only strengthen the beliefs of extremists. I look forward to one day seeing something from you that I cannot immediately discredit simply by opening my bible or koran and reading the verses around it. I look forward to you one day providing any amount of challenge to my beliefs.

  • Both Karla and Robert Brown frequently trot out circularly reasoning. They have no real evidence that supports their crazy beliefs.

  • Robert Brown, your whole Jesus-sacrifice story is a steaming pile of bull output. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic “god” that you’ve made for yourself there.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Robert Brown, you should take a more critical look at your Christian book of nasty AKA the bible. Why would anyone follow your supposed “word of god” when it contains such nasty guidances as these, from both foul testaments. Note the following text about context too:

    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
    18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

    1 Timothy 2:11
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”

    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Leviticus 25
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don’t get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

    Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it’s in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god’s mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

    And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your “god” couldn’t come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken “out of context”, and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you’ve made for yourself.

    So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Fourth Valley,

    “So far, when I see a post from you it usually takes me moments on Google….you quote out of context…the nobleman..”.

    There you go again!!
    You defend the indefensible and then tell me to be rational?

    The Nobleman in the parable IS Jesus –
    THE PARABLE IS ABOUT THE SECOND COMING!
    Jesus is describing what he will do to those who he claims to be his enemies and he threatens obedience and fear.

    Step 1. “ATHEIST MAX, you fool! don’t you know it is a parable?”
    Step 2. “Atheist max, Jesus is about love and forgiveness”
    Step 3. “I admit, Atheist max, yes the Parable is a warning about the second coming – it is what Jesus will do when he returns”

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine of would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    It is not my problem! I reject this dangerous nightmare!
    But it IS YOUR problem because you CONTINUE defending it.

    I have been down this road a hundred times and I guess I have to keep doing it!

    EVERY INTERPRETATION OF LUKE 19
    SAYS THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS!

    Catholic Christ Notes – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS:
    http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=42&c=19

    BIBLE GATEWAY – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Luke/Controversy-Jerusalem

    BIBLE STUDY TOOLS – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS
    http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/jamieson-fausset-brown/luke/luke-19.html

    MATTHEW HENRY’S COMPLETE COMMENTARY ON THE BIBLE – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS
    http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mhm/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=019

    CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS
    http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2009/06/09/what-does-the-parable-of-the-minas-mean/

    CATHOLIC BIBLE HUB – THE NOBLEMAN IS JESUS
    http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/19-27.htm

  • “There you go again!!
    You defend the indefensible and then tell me to be rational?”

    There’s a part of me that sincerely hopes you are just some Christian kid trying to make atheists sound irrational through strawmanning, as I know plenty of rational atheists. Sadly, that’s just a dream and you are likely sincere.

    Yes, the second coming is one possible interperetation, though if you know Baha’i as you claim you would know it is not mine. Links to Christian interpretations don’t really affect a Baha’i interpretation in all cases. Certainly Christians don’t think the Book of Daniel has anything to do with the Bab. 😛

    I like how you only bother to defend one of your bad-logic examples. Tell me, even if the use of the parable is defensible, are the other actions I pointed to?? Is it logical to knowlingly misquote Surahs about self defense??

    You cannot support yourself on bad logic. If I say “The sky is blue, we know this because outer space is filled with water” my logic is WRONG. Even if my conclusion (“the sky is blue”) is correct, my argument for that conclusion is false, making the entire statement wrong. Thus, when you do things like argue that Surah 2:191 proves Islam is a violent religion, you are using bad logic. EVEN if Islam IS a violent religion, because Surah 2:191 does not support that conclusion, the whole argument is bad.

    Now, AGAIN, I’m not defending anything. Just because I am critical of attacks against the ideology X, does not mean I am supporting X.

    Let’s take this statement: “The Guru Granth Sahib (Sikh Holy Book) is incorrect because the Bible says so.” Am I correct in assuming you reject this argument (the argument being “because the Bible says so”)?? If you reject this faulty argument against the Guru Granth Sahib’s validity, are you:
    A) Defending the Guru Granth Sahib, or are you
    B) Attacking faulty logic

    It is possible to object to an argument without disagreeing with the argument’s conclusion. In the logical statement “X -> Y”, if I disprove “X” it does not mean I disagree with “Y”. I can agree with the statement “The bible is wrong” and disagree with “The bible is wrong because of this example of misquoted scripture.”

  • I think we’re straying away from the RNS story itself a little bit.

    Here’s the RNS story in brief: The world’s Catholic bishops are openly BETRAYING the Catholic faith because THEIR Gay-Marriage-Pope, Mr. Francis, has given them outright permission to betray it. No joke.

    That’s the story. The Gay Marriage Cult is happy. They know that THEIR pope, Mr. Francis, will make them even happier in the not-too-distant future.

    The End.

  • Homosexual behavior is still sinful and marriage is still only between a man and a woman. Nothing has changed.

  • We ALL (mankind) have to repent of our daily sins and shortcomings on a daily basis. Graciously, the upcoming rule by God’s kingdom or heavenly government, together with the benefits of the ransom sacrifice of God’s son (no, he is not equal to his Father and never will be!) will put an end to sin and imperfection we are all born with (Romans 5:12).

    Then mankind will live forever on a paradise earth, enjoying the “real life”, and even the animals will be at peace with one another (I will be able to hold a cobra without fear!! 😀 … Isaiah 11:1-9).

    This was God’s purpose for mankind from the beginning, and God never changes and is trustworthy as to ALL of his promises!! 😀 😀 😀

  • Fran-While on earth Christ had the fullness of God uopn Him and
    did not know when His return was because He was subjected to the
    will of Him going to the Cross/our sin bein cast upon Him on the Cross
    but now that He is in heaven of course He knows the day/hour of His
    return now! First born out of hell/first born does not mean He was a
    created being but refers to rank. He went to hell and the Bible says
    hell is real. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with
    God and the Word was God! Who is the Word? Jesus Christ is!
    Jesus said before Abraham I Am! What did God say to Moses?
    He said I Am! When you deny the Trinity/Christ being deity and
    say Jesus was created/there is no hell your deny the Truth! You
    really need to do some more research because the Bible says if
    you preach somethin different you will be eternally condemned!

  • Bob,

    Jesus fulfilled the law because the
    perfect body of Jesus was the corresponding ransom for all imperfect mankind (Matthew 20:28).

    The nation of Israel basically rejects Christ Jesus as the son of God or the Messiah. There are a small number of “messianic Jews” who accept Jesus as the Messiah, but they believe he will rule from earthly Jerusalem, when, in fact, he is ruling from God’s kingdom or “heavenly” government (Matthew 4:17; Hebrews 12:22), which Kingdom was established in 1914, the end of the Gentile nations, and the start of the last days of a wicked era and the presence of Jesus.

    All the promises of God concerning mankind (Psalm 37:10,11; Isaiah 11:1-9; Revelation 21:1-4) will be fulfilled as sure as the sun will rise in the morning, and the moon will rise in the evening, just as God created them, for our benefit. 😀

  • The trinity and the hellfire doctrines are not truth and will be exposed for the falsehoods that they are at the end of this wicked era and the start of the 1,000-yr. rule by Jesus, the son of God, the Messiah, and the King of God’s kingdom, sitting at the right hand of God, his Father (Psalm 110:1).

  • @Fourth Valley,

    “Is it logical to knowlingly misquote Surahs about self defense?”

    Misquote?
    I don’t know what you are talking about.
    I showed you the quote – that is not ‘MISquoting.
    It is ‘quoting’ – i.e., showing you a salient excerpt as evidence of an evil direction of Allah. I am challenging you to NOT see the abject evil and depravity of the Surah.

    “Thus, when you do things like argue that Surah 2:191 proves Islam is a violent religion, you are using bad logic.”

    I don’t say that Surah 2:191 “proves Islam is a violent religion”.
    I pointed to the quote because it demonstrates that people are COMMANDED to kill at the direction of Allah and such killing is VALID if you are a believer – therefor the command is immoral. Allah is immoral.
    I also explicitly said that it is evidence to the falseness of these religions that they cannot be received as 100% true, for if they were 100% true it would be completely appropriate to exercise their commands 100% as directed. Such mass behavior would lead to mass murder.

    “Now, AGAIN, I’m not defending anything.”

    Yes you are.

    “Let’s take this statement: “The Guru Granth Sahib (Sikh Holy Book) is incorrect because the Bible says so.” Am I correct in assuming you reject this argument (the argument being “because the Bible says so”)?? If you reject this faulty argument against the Guru Granth Sahib’s validity, are you:
    A) Defending the Guru Granth Sahib, or are you
    B) Attacking faulty logic”

    I reject the logic that says the Bible is an authority over Guru Granth Sahib because the Bible isn’t an authority on anything.
    Likewise I reject the claims of Guru Granth Sahib because there is no reason to see authority there, either.
    You are using an imaginary leprechaun to disprove a mermaid!

    “I can agree with the statement “The bible is wrong” and disagree with “The bible is wrong because of this example of misquoted scripture.””

    Of course. But I misquoted nothing.
    And God either exists or he doesn’t – and if you defend the Bible
    as a source for your religion, you defend the God to whom it is attributed and you defend the use of this disgraceful book as a “Holy Scripture” of valuable insights into a real God.

    The price of religion is too high. It is too dangerous and depraved and primitive and abject.

    I don’t care if you want to believe this stuff,
    but there is no room for it in our public laws
    or our schools or our courthouses. And that is my point.

  • @Fourth Valley,

    “Life or Death? Haha! How so?”

    Staying just with the majority of the world:

    ISLAM SAYS TO OTHERS:
    “The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam.” (Surah 3:19)
    “Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” (Surah 2:216)
    “Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.” (Surah 5:51)

    JUDAISM SAYS TO OTHERS:
    “Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.” (Jeremiah 48:10
    “Seize all the non-believers and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight…” (Numbers 25:1-9)

    CHRISTIANITY SAYS TO OTHERS:
    “To those who would not have me as their king, bring them to me and EXECUTE THEM in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    “I shall kill her children with Death” – Jesus (REV. 1:22-23)
    “I have come to bring FIRE…NOT PEACE but destruction.” – Jesus (Luke 12:49-51)

    Meanwhile …….

    Religion WORKS AGAINST:
    All Science, Reason, free inquiry, evolution, women’s rights, gay rights, Church State separation, establishment clause of the US Constitution, Socratic method, contraception and sexual health, mental health, intellectual freedom, International Peace, Middle East diplomacy

    Religion PROMOTES:
    Bigotry, Misogyny, Surrender to Eschatological Armageddon, Gullibility, Theocracies, Ignorance of Scientific and Medical methods, Intellectual repression, superstition, Faith Healers and other Con men, Surrender to unaccountable authority, pseudo-science, para-psychology, sexual repression, genital mutilation, Israeli settlements, Islamic hegemony, honor killings, faith-based suicide bombings, holy war, holy terror, etc…

    The above Religions sanctify evil behavior by forgiving it unconditionally.

    If religion was useful to ancient barbarians
    that might be a reason we call them ancient barbarians.

  • Nowhere in the text does the bible indicate the character of the wine in the way that you suggest; it does not indicate new wine, nor does it indicate diluted wine. The governor of the wedding declared it ‘the best’ wine. hardly an appellation that fits your interpretation. Indeed on the matter of sin you seem fixated on alcohol consumption. There are several scriptural references that could call into question your interpretation.

  • Doc Anthony is correct about the point of the article, but the discussion always spins out of control on these pages. I respect Karla as a fellow believer, but I think she’s a monomaniac on the subject of alcohol; Fran I also respect but disagree with her on the doctrine of hell. These may not be deal killers; but the inability of atheists, secularists, and those who just plain hate Christianity, to either understand the bible as an organic whole vis’ a’ vis both Testaments, and who plainly don’t know the rules of interpretation regarding literature…any literature…is clearly laughable. Wholly disappointed in the Pope on this one. I say treat LGBT’s with dignity and respect without agreeing with their positions, welcome them into worship services, so that they may be persuaded of better things, but do not embrace them as fellow Christian’s. This I think reflects the scriptural standard.

  • Diogenes-Bible says don’t get drunk on strong wine and to get even more
    specific Ephesians 5:18 says don’t get drunk on wine for it’s debauchery!
    The wine Jesus made as for symbolic reasons not to get drunk/was diluted
    plus the Bible also says in 1 Corinthians 6:10 that all drunkards go to hell.
    The reason I preach on alcohol and other sins is because most people
    today only want to talk about gay marriage or abortion so they don’t have
    to face their own sin. Jesus said many will say to Me Lord,Lord and not
    enter heaven so people need to be Biblical because it doesn’t matter how
    spiritual people are if they aren’t Biblical they are still lost and are headed
    for hell. 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 lists many sins right along with homosexuality
    so all sin needs confronted. We all need to/must Repent! We must Repent!

  • Diogenes-If they had been drinking all day and the Bible says don’t get
    drunk on strong wine/Ephesians 5:18 says don’t get drunk on/with wine
    for it’s debauchery do you really think Jesus would make more strong wine
    so they could get even more drunk? The best wine doesn’t mean it was
    strong wine. Bible is clear drunkards go to hell/getting drunk is wrong!

  • Eric-Sin needs to be confronted. Bible says Repent and believe the Gospel
    to be saved! Two guys were next to Jesus on the Cross and only one guy
    went to heaven! Why? Only one guy Repented/had a change of heart about
    their sin. Bible says Repent or perish! Repent or perish! We must Repent!
    Luke 13 talks about having good fruit and that fruit is fruit of Repentance not
    good works cause many non-believers do good works so the fruit is fruit of
    Repentance and the Bible says we are known by our fruit. We must Repent!

  • When you quoted Surah 2:191 in the past you insisted it instructed Muslims to kill non-believers… when the quote in question instructs Muslims to kill those who attack them. How is that not a misquote??

    “You are using an imaginary leprechaun to disprove a mermaid!”

    Exactly!! This is what I’m saying. You often use bad logic to come to conclusions that in many cases are not illogical. I do not reject your conclusion, but reject your argument in those cases. Using a leprechaun to disprove a mermaid is a bad idea, so stop using leprechauns.

    Insisting that the statement “X implies Y is false” is false does not imply that “Y” is true, nor is it a defense of “Y”. This is stuff they teach in Logic 101. You can reject an argument against Y without affirming or defending Y. In fact, the school of Logic teaches that rejecting an argument is never defending Y, as it places no argument for or against Y, it simply removes a faulty argument from the logic equation.

  • Rants and proof texting of the Bible in the comments I have read has almost nothing to do with the subject of the article. I hope all the venting helps, but I doubt it.

  • Fran, what you posted is just rubbish with a very high Woo Factor (google that term to learn more). It also does not address the questions that I asked. Again, the questions:

    How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers?

    Pretty pathetic “god” that you’ve made for yourself there.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Memo to Roman Catholics . .
    The Vatican Family Synod is completely invalid as homosexual bishops promoting family values is a contradiction in terms. Those who neither embrace or model a morality that is agreeable to their own teachings are neither fit nor qualified to guide others in the solemn matters of faith and morals. The Bishops vainly imagine they occupy the moral high ground!
    The tolerance of homosexual priests/bishops in the priesthood/hierarchy is tantamount to both teaching and condoning “evil actions”! 1) “A conservative estimate of gay Catholic clergy is thirty percent. That figure has held steady for several decades in the face of assiduous scrutiny; many Vatican insiders speculate that the accurate figure is closer to fifty percent.” Unquestionably the Roman Catholic priesthood has become a “gay community” and represents yet another disturbing dimension to the ever-widening Roman Catholic Clergy Abuse SCANDAL perpetrated by the scandalous behaviour of the “church’s hierarchy”, and for which they are wholly responsible. Bear in mind . . the National Review Board concluded that “80 percent of the abuse at issue was of a homosexual nature.” Can you really afford to wait until your child is sacrificed on the altar of priestly abuse? By now it should be painfully obvious to “the faithful” that the “hierarchy” will not cleanse the temple of the plague of homosexuality. Not only has the Roman Catholic hierarchy failed to protect the most vulnerable amongst them from their predator priests, but they have embraced, tolerated and sanctioned homosexual priests . . bishops in their own ranks, who are by no means “chaste.” Given the present sobering realities, parents are left with but one option . . LEAVE! In light of these solemn realities, , parents must act decisively in the interests and well-being of their children’s safety and do the right thing in the sight of God! Time to heed the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ as it is found in Revelation 18, verse 4: “. . . . Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
    Citation: 1) Source: HOMOSEXUALITY & CATHOLIC CULTURE

  • @Fourth Valley,

    My logic is fine.
    You can’t keep wriggling away from the fact that you have faith in something completely unfounded. Where is your evidence?
    You have none.
    And in the meantime you defend the quality and value of ancient bigotries – not as if they are interesting subjects to study (which would be fine) but AS SCRIPTURE.
    And that is where you continue to fail as a person of integrity.

    I have read the Q’uran once all the way through.
    I have read large sections of the Surah and Hadith several times in english. These are the usual examples I have referred to but there are hundreds more !!!!

    1. Infidels are those who declare: “God is the Christ, the son of Mary.” (Sura 5:17)
    2. Infidels are those who say ‘God is one of three in a Trinity.” (Sura 5:73)
    3. Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. (Sura 9:123)
    4. The infidels (non-Muslims) are your sworn enemies. (Sura 4:101)
    5. When you meet the enemy in the battlefield, strike off their heads. (Sura 47:4)
    6. Mohammed is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to infidels. (Sura 48:29)
    7. Prophet, make war on the infidel. (Sura 66:9)
    8. Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. (Sura 2:191)
    9. Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. (Sura 5:51)
    10. Believers, do not make friends with those who have incurred the wrath of Allah. (Sura 60:13)
    11. Never be a helper to the disbelievers. (Sura 28:86)
    12. Fight those who believe not in Allah. (Sura 9:29)
    13. The only reward of those who make war on Allah and His messenger….will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off. (Sura 5:33)

    My objection is not that these racist tracts exist as historic baubles and pamphlets..but that they are brainlessly VALUED AS SCRIPTURE by people such as yourself who claim it is DIVINE.

    And that is where you have no evidence.
    You have produced nothing that looks like evidence to prove the Bible or these other Texts has the slightest whiff of divinity in them.

    Believe whatever you want.
    Just keep it out of our public laws and schools. Without more evidence, your religion is dangerous woo and nonsense like all the others.

  • @Chaplain Martin,

    The comments reflect an energetic debate on what is “true” and what is “not true.” And there are important consequences.

    For those who look at the Bible for inerrant ‘truth,’ the Pope’s actions are shocking and wrong. They quote the bible to prove it.

    For those who seek truth from ‘a relationship with a loving Jesus’ the Pope’s actions are interesting and progressive. They ignore the Bible, which is why they think Jesus is ‘loving’ in the first place.

    For those like myself, who seek truth through evidence, the Pope’s decision about gays is welcome in the same way a wife beater has decided to stop beating his wife. Glad to hear it, but he has more to do, a flawed philosophy to defend and a lot to apologize for. I quote the Bible to reveal the seeds of the despicable philosophy which endorsed the inhumane wife-beating in the first place.

  • How do you know the wine was diluted? When Jesus turned water into wine the steward remarked that most people served the good wine first and then when people had drunk enough, the poorer stuff..In other words when they were too drunk to notice the difference

  • Jebediah-Bible says don’t get drunk on strong wine! Do you think that
    Jesus would make strong wine so people could continue to get drunk?
    Ephesians 5:18 says don’t get drunk with wine for it’s debauchery and
    1 Corinthians 6:10 says that all drunkards go to hell unless they Repent!

  • This pope seems to be too liberal. I can see him wanting the best for all people, but for him to suggest the church welcolmes gays as a home and accepts and values their sexuality, well how could that be done without glorifying it? When you value something you are glorifying it, and according to the Bible ho mos exuality is sin and we aren’t even supposed to commit the appearance of sin as Christians. I don’t see how the church can get around it, if the church glorifies being gay then it has glorified sin and it’s faithful should leave and join either Protestants or the Orthodox churches. The pope is supposed to stand up for what is right, not what is popular, and if he isn’t prepared to do that he isn’t fit to be pope. I know and understand that he wants to be accommodating and meet people where they are at, glorifying people engaged in what the Bible clearly calls sin when they never plan to repent is going too far. If you’re going o do that you might as well declare the whole religion is false, and if you think that you shouldn’t be pope.

  • Leviticus 18:22 King James Version (KJV)

    22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

  • What I love about Atheists is there blind devotion to thier own God, thier own reason. The problem is reality is in front of you. Since the rise of a more atheistic less religious society we as a culture have fallen apart. Crime is rampant, rape, home invasions, drug addictions. Weather you like God or believe in him when our society did we didn’t kill ourselves quite so hard. It wasn’t all swept under the rug either all though some admittedly was. You can play with bible verse all day and act like your surprising someone, but the truth is your seeking justification for the demise of culture art and happiness. It used to be even the poorest of Americans had dignity because they had good moral conduct now every one just wants a bigger TV or car and if you don’t get it your nothing. You devalue mankind with the lies and manipulations you promote. Maybe just maybe the Christians sent the blind sheep, it’s the Athiests. They don’t even realize they are just prophets for the drug companies wanting us to trust in their faith called science so they can milk our lives of any value to line thier pockets. That is all atheism has ever been a religion for money and self absorption. Smell a flower look at the sky hold a child. There is a God and his son is Jesus Christ

  • @Rev Chris,

    “What I love about Atheists is there blind devotion to thier own God, thier own reason.”

    LOL! Bring it on, Reverend – please!

    “Since the rise of a more atheistic less religious society we as a culture have fallen apart. Crime is rampant, rape, home invasions, drug addictions.”

    Wrong. Crime is at an all time low.

    “It wasn’t all swept under the rug either all though some admittedly was.”
    Well. Reverends once showed up at lynchings and witchburnings.

    “You devalue mankind with the lies and manipulations you promote.”
    Like WHO?
    Pick out which one of these awful people is the Atheist:

    Paul Newman – he raised $370 million for charity with ‘Newman’s Own’
    Bill Gates – donates billions to save children world wide.
    Warren Buffett – donates billions to save children worldwide.
    Dr. Seuss – wrote and illustrated “The Grinch who Stole Christmas”
    Charles Schultz – wrote and illustrated “Charlie Brown Christmas”
    Irving Berlin – wrote and composed “White Christmas”

    Surprise!
    THEY ARE ALL ATHEISTS!

    ” They don’t even realize they are just prophets for the drug companies wanting us to trust in their faith called science”

    Science works. Prayer doesn’t. Done.

    “That is all atheism has ever been a religion for money and self absorption.”

    OSKAR SCHINDLER (ATHEIST) ONLY CARED ABOUT HIMSELF?
    EVER HEARD OF SCHINDLER’S LIST?

    “Smell a flower look at the sky hold a child. There is a God and his son is Jesus Christ”

    I raised children. Don’t condescend to Atheists just because your parents taught you to be a Christian and they happen to have apparently pumped up your view of your ability to spot beauty.

    ATHEIST, Vincent Van Gogh, didn’t need to believe in gods to see beauty.
    ATHEIST, Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Trek, didn’t need to believe in gods to see the wonder of the universe.
    ATHEIST, ROD SERLING, creator of Twilight Zone, didn’t need to believe in gods to appreciate wonder and mystery.

    You have a lot to learn Reverend.
    Please keep replying so I can keep teaching you a thing or two.

    Bring it on!

    You have no special insight into the world of wonder and beauty!

  • You misquote sacred scripture out of context to advance your twisted concept of what the meaning of life is. You are bitter and angry as Hell and this is not a good place to be. There is hope, however, as God loves you and in your final coherent moments before death, you will attempt to reconcile with Him. The good news is that we (the Church) have been adopted into His divine family and therefore I can pray for you…you’re welcome!

  • Wow! This is great news! I can’t wait until they approve those of us who are into bestiality and put the brakes on all those self-righteous snobs who judge us.

  • I recall Jesus sleeping away on a boat, while his “followers” were scared to death.
    In such contrast , I would imagine many of the “followers” of the pope are also scared. ABOVE all , what the POPE is practicing is to not protect GOD. GOD does not need protected , therefore neither do his “followers”

  • That does seem odd to me , I quite clearly remember Jesus said that they were the ones that need more help than those that did not drink.. I do not find in your post anywhere that you are helping. Jesus certainly excluded no one, no one at all, so why do you ?

  • For eighty years, I have been taught that if you sin against the Ten Commandments you are committing a mortal sin. It seems like now the teaching and comments avoid the teaching of the Ten Commandments, Also Our Savior Jesus tells us in the Gospel how to live our lives I firmly believe that to sin is mortal when there is a Grievous matter, Sufficient reflection, and Full consent of the will.

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