The owners of the Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho decline to officiate weddings for same-sex couples. Photo courtesy of Alliance Defending Freedom.

At Idaho wedding chapel, a hollow victory for religious freedom (COMMENTARY)

WASHINGTON (RNS) Same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho on Oct. 15, and within days, two faux clergy wedding profiteers and a gaggle of lawyers from the professional victim class began making headlines. At issue are thorny conflicts between religion and law, civil liberties and civil rights, and the sacred and secular meaning of marriage.

The story begins over a year ago. In response to the Idaho Legislature’s steadfast refusal to enact legislation protecting gays and lesbians against discrimination in employment, housing, and public accommodations, a number of Idaho municipalities adopted local ordinances of their own.

The picturesque lakeside town of Coeur d’Alene adopted its ordinance in June 2013.

The owners of the Hitching Post wedding chapel took notice, conferring with city officials about how the impending legalization of same-sex marriage could affect their business.

(RNS) Donald and Evelyn Knapp own the Hitching Post Wedding Chapel in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, where local officials say they could face misdemeanor charges for refusing to marry same-sex couples. RNS photo courtesy Alliance Defending Freedom.

(RNS) Donald and Evelyn Knapp own the Hitching Post wedding chapel in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, where local officials say they could face misdemeanor charges for refusing to marry same-sex couples. RNS photo courtesy Alliance Defending Freedom.


 This image is available for web and print publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

Though the proprietors, Donald and Evelyn Knapp, are ordained Pentecostal ministers, they operated their company not as pastors in a church but as sellers in a marketplace.

The Revs. Knapp are profiteers in the $40 billion wedding industrial complex. Not unlike Elvis impersonators in Las Vegas, or tacky roadside shacks in Branson, Mo., or Gatlinburg, Tenn., they solemnize civil marriages and charge a fee for their services. For extra cash, these clergy will even officiate at weddings on boats, hot-air balloons, or roller coasters.

As the legalization of same-sex marriage became increasingly inevitable, city officials advised the Knapps that, as a business open to the public, they would likely be in violation of the nondiscrimination ordinance if they refused service to a gay or lesbian couple.

It is unclear precisely when the Knapps became tangled up with the Alliance Defending Freedom, the Arizona-based network of activist lawyers who often shop around for cases in friendly venues that will arouse public sympathy. The Knapps are ideal plaintiffs because gay marriage proponents insist that they will never seek to force clergy to officiate at gay weddings or churches to host them.

In this case, the specter of ministers being compelled against their will plays right into conservatives’ worst fears. The only problem is that no one had complained to the city that the Knapps would not perform a same-sex marriage ceremony.

That fact did not stop ADF from preemptively suing the city, and supplying the conservative media with stories about ordained ministers being threatened with jail and fines for refusing to celebrate a same-sex wedding.

In the end, the Knapps will likely prevail in their case because, as journalist Andrew Sullivan reminded us, “Requiring individuals to perform a marriage ceremony against their beliefs is just something we don’t do in a liberal society.”

But neither the Knapps nor their lawyers are the civil rights heroes they are making themselves out to be.

The Knapps are businesspeople, not pastors. They abandoned their religious vocation the moment they traded the sacred meaning of marriage for a profit-making enterprise. A Christian wedding is a congregational celebration. Christian marriage begins in a church, not a kitschy resort-town “chapel.” The couple’s pastor officiates, not a rent-a-reverend with a notary stamp.

Their audacious feigning of religious concern shamelessly and brazenly impugns the ministry of actual pastors who seek to strengthen their congregants’ marriages through preaching and teaching on the subject, who diligently counsel couples seeking marriage, and who give up precious family time many Friday and Saturday nights each year for rehearsals and weddings.

Traditional marriage advocate Ryan Anderson plays up the couple’s religious vocation, calculating that “a week of honoring their faith and declining to perform the ceremony could cost the couple 3 1/2 years in jail and $7,000 in fines.”

The Knapps have not been honoring their faith by using their ministerial credentials for profit all these years. They are certainly not honoring it now.

If the Knapps have never applied a shred of pastoral scrutiny in their long years of marriage profiteering but suddenly invoke it to deny their services to a specific class of people, their faith seems blatantly bigoted.

States allow clergy to solemnize marriage contracts if they are in good standing with their credentialing ecclesial authority. Surely the Knapps’ denomination, the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, would not countenance its clergy selling marriages on the quick -- without premarital counseling and completely apart from any church context.

To be sure, we cannot and should not compel clergy to solemnize civil marriages against their consciences. But to the degree that the Knapps’ consciences only trouble them now that same-sex marriage is legal, theirs will be a victory for bigotry as much as for liberty.

Jacob Lupfer is a contributing editor at Religion News Service and a doctoral candidate in political science at Georgetown University. His website is www.jacoblupfer.com. Follow him on Twitter at @jlupf. Photo courtesy of Jacob Lupfer

Jacob Lupfer is a contributing editor at Religion News Service and a doctoral candidate in political science at Georgetown University. His website is www.jacoblupfer.com. Follow him on Twitter at @jlupf. Photo courtesy of Jacob Lupfer

ADF hit the venue-shopping lottery in Coeur d'Alene. It groomed the Knapps for months, fabricated a controversy, sacralized the Knapps’ tacky business, and advised them to change their website and incorporation status in order to win a case that will create maximal legal precedent for religiously sanctioned discrimination.

Neither ADF nor the Knapps seem concerned that they further conflate marriage’s sacred and civil meaning.

Welcome, gay Idahoans, to the holy estate of marriage. Don’t laugh too hard at the people who say that you are the ones who mock the institution.

(Jacob Lupfer is a contributing editor at Religion News Service and a doctoral candidate in political science at Georgetown University. His website is www.jacoblupfer.com. Follow him on Twitter at @jlupf.)

KRE/AMB END LUPFER

Comments

  1. The ADF filed a frivolous lawsuit and misrepresented the facts to the public. Since the lawsuit lacked actual incidents in controversy, it was a waste of time for the Idaho Courts (if the suit was ever really filed) and pure PR dookie.

    By claiming its services were religious in nature, they would have been just able to skirt the state anti-discrimination law anyway. There were no complaints or incidents of them turning away gay couples.

    Rule of thumb: Assume everything from the “Alliance Defending Freedom” is bullcrap unless otherwise confirmed by a reliable source.

  2. Many so called “preachers” today are more like a salesman than a preacher
    with so many of these “preachers” that have a book to sell/don’t preach the
    Truth. People are getting feel good messages and aren’t being convicted
    or if sin does get confronted it’s usually only about gay marriage or abortion.
    1 Corinthians 6:9-12 lists many sins right with homosexuality so all sin bad!
    Ephesians 5:18 says don’t get drunk and 1 Corinthians 6:10 says that all
    drunkards go to hell yet getting drunk,pride,gambling,being mean,gossip,
    sharp tongues,premarital sex hardly ever get confronted along with sins
    like coveting/greed,jealousy and takin the Lords name in vain. The wine
    that Jesus made was from the fruit of the vine/new wine/diluted and plus
    Bible says don’t get drunk on strong wine/don’t get drunk with wine for it’s
    debauchery! All sins are bad and we all must Repent! We must Repent!

  3. Kudos to Jacob for looking at this from an honest religious perspective. Ryan Anderson is cooked. I suspect that he is becoming a celibate Opus Dei numerary. Once Robby George gets his hands on young men they are finished. Done. Whatever intellectual curiosity that they might have had vanishes in a haze of altar candles.

    ADF are a group of cynical stuntsmen. They troll for potential victims to be martyrs for the faith. Yet that has not stopped marriage equality. Not for a second, not for an inch of ground.

  4. The epithet, “homosexual” was only invented in 1870. This is why everyone just laughs at you when you claim it’s in the Bible.

  5. I’ve come across this story as a result of Christian friends commenting on Facebook about this couple’s “persecution”. It makes me profoundly angry that this is placed in the same category as people who are suffering and dying in some parts of the world as a result of their Christian faith.

    This is not a church. There is no congregation, no weekly Sunday services, no Christian community of any kind. It is a business offering a service to the public, dressed up in religious language because there is a market for religious language in a wedding ceremony.

    I see all these Christians offering prayers of protection for these “pastors” and their “church” and mentioning Jesus. If Jesus was visiting Idaho, he’d be making a whip and driving these people out for turning marriage into a money-making exercise while pretending what they do is somehow holy, just as he drove out the money-changers in the Temple. \

  6. Yeah, before that we had “man-bedders.”. Your point?

  7. Really people who engage in what we would call sodomy today. Referring to a form of non-procreative sexual congress which is hardly exclusive to homosexuals. “Arse Coitus”. It becomes much clearer when you see the modern forms of the compound word you are referencing from the greek.

    But you will find any excused to treat gays like crap and blame the Bible for your behavior. Isn’t that right Shawnie? 🙂

  8. So, you don’t think Carrot can answer for himself, either– isn’ t that right, Larry?

    And spare us your third*hand borrowings from John Boswell. We know exactly what the Jews of Jesus’ time, including Paul, understood the passage which the word in question is taken from. Their writings still exist. No question about it. If that were not the case, I’d gladly vote for this sin (and a few others too) to not be a sin. No one asked me. Or you. Or Boswell and his multitudes of ignorant subscribers.

  9. Shawnie, it doesn’t take a religious scholar or even someone conversant in old-timey Greek (which you are not anyway) to sound a word out and compare it to modern versions of it. What could “arse-coitus” possibly mean? Hmmmmm.

    “We know exactly what the Jews of Jesus’ time, including Paul, understood the passage which the word in question is taken from. ”

    Actually we don’t. We guess at what they thought because writings from that period in history are fragmentary even in the best of times, even for the most advanced civilizations there. You make such assumptions because it is much easier than accepting gaps in knowledge.

    “I’d gladly vote for this sin (and a few others too) to not be a sin. ”

    Oh I love it when you make up the ridiculous claim that “its not me, its the Bible that forces me to do this”. Either it makes you out to be spineless or a bald faced liar making weak excuses.

  10. ” What could “arse-coitus” possibly mean? Hmmmmm.”

    Larry, your remarks get more ignorant all the time. “Arsenos” is koine Greek for man or male. It doesn’t mean “arse.” Good grief.

    “We guess at what they thought because writings from that period in history are fragmentary even in the best of times, even for the most advanced civilizations there. ”

    Oh? Is that what your propaganda sites told you? And what exactly is fragmentary about Flavius Josephus’ 1st century work “Against Apion?”

    “But then, what are our laws about marriage? That law owns no other mixture of sexes but that which nature hath appointed, of a man with his wife, and that this be used for the procreation of children. But it abhors the mixture of a male with a male; and if anyone do that, death is his punishment”

  11. That would actually be “Andro”.

    What you have here is a giant game of “telephone” on an idiom which may have been wholly invented by Paul. If you get your head out of the self-referential sources (Not related to Biblical interpretation) to actually look at the root of the word it is far more questionable.

    One search found arseno can have a completely different meaning
    arseno-, arsen-
    (Greek > Latin: yellow orpiment [pigment of gold]; arsenic trisulfide, having a lemon-yellow color and a resinous luster; used as a pigment)
    http://wordinfo.info/results/greek%20latin

    Whatever you think about our laws about marriage, one thing is for certain, it has nothing to do with whatever you think the Bible says. It will NEVER be based on what the Bible says. The Establishment Clause demands that all laws have secular and rational purposes behind them. None exist for gay marriage bans.

    As for natural procreation as the basis, Josephus is a bit out of date here. The argument is still used. Currently it is one of the dumbest arguments used against gay marriage. It ignores:
    -marriages between the infertile or old
    -Children of couples are legally recognized without marriage
    -Adopted children have the same status as those born to a couple
    -Gay couples frequently raise children born to one biologically
    -Procreation is hardly the only salient legal feature of a married couple
    -Courts shot down that notion when they declared bans on contraception for married couples illegal (Griswold v. Ct 1960)

  12. CarrotCakeMan-What are you talking about? 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 lists
    homosexual as one of the sins along with swindlers,thieves,drunkards
    and idolaters,slanderers,the sexually immoral,the greedy as those who
    will not inherit the kingdom of heaven unless they Repent so for you to
    say homosexual is not in the Bible is not true/flat our wrong!! God bless.

  13. You are heroes Knapps! Christian religious freedoms are the new civil rights of our day. Fight on Christians or they will take your ability to stay true to your faith away.

  14. There already is full marriage equality. Anyone can marry a person of the opposite sex.Two people of the same sex can never make a marriage.

  15. He would also tell everyone that all homosexual behavior is sinful and a rejection of him.

  16. Larry, this is what happens when you try to wing it with the Bible and history by frantically running to wikipedia. You end up embarrassing yourself in front of everyone. I’ll say this for Carrot — at least he knows when he’s in over his head and has the self-respect to not openly advertise it by saying too much.

    “That would actually be “Andro”.”

    Andro refers to man in the sense of race. Arsen (a slightly Latinized form of aner) refers to man as an individual. The “arsenikos” that you dug up from wiki is not a noun but an adjective, a hellenized version of a Persian word (zarnihk) for gold-colored; even greek lexicons admit that a literal translation of it would mean “manly, virile”

    In any case, “arsen” is the word Jesus used in the well-known passage about marriage: “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning ‘made them male (arsen) and female?’”

    Translated by Larry: “He who created them from the beginning made them yellow powder [alternatively, arse] and female.”

    ROFL!

    “Whatever you think about our laws about marriage, one thing is for certain, it has nothing to do with whatever you think the Bible says.”

    You’d do far better to stick to that argument, rather than wading off into ancient languages and scriptural interpretation that you will ALWAYS bungle. But thank you for the comic relief; the hubby and I had a hearty laugh over your “arse” remarks last night and I plan to send them on to some friends who will likewise get a kick out of them. It was hard to imagine you ever outdoing your attribution of Jefferson’s words in the Declaration of Independence to David Barton, but you sure managed it last night.

  17. “…dressed up in religious language because there is a market for religious language in a wedding ceremony.”

    It’s more pathetic than that.

    Prior to the media hoopla, the Hitching Post’s website actually advertised that they also performed non-religious ceremonies and ceremonies for non-Christian faiths. They erased those parts just prior to filing the lawsuit so they could pose as persecuted Christians who only perform Christian wedding ceremonies.

  18. Shawnie, if you can show a reliable translation outside of the Biblical echo-chamber, you would have some credibility. But the fact is nothing to that effect is readily available online. Like a great deal of many subjects you chime in on, you want to pretend expertise when in reality you are just rehashing the usual Christian apologetic sources.

    “It was hard to imagine you ever outdoing your attribution of Jefferson’s words in the Declaration of Independence to David Barton, but you sure managed it last night.”

    I wasn’t posting last night. Can you tell me which thread it was on?
    There are at least 2 other Larrys who have posted here in the last few weeks.

  19. “Shawnie, if you can show a reliable translation outside of the Biblical echo-chamber, you would have some credibility.”

    They are literally ALL OVER the internet, Larry. Plus the translation and ancient understanding of them are corroborated by all ancient Jewish and Christian commentary. What do you think we’ve been talking about here all this time? The reason you don’t consider them “reliable” is because you don’t want it to be reliable — though I still can’t imagine why you care, being an atheist. You don’t accept scripture as authoritative, so why do you knock yourself out advocating futilely for insupportable translations and interpretations of it?

    “I wasn’t posting last night. Can you tell me which thread it was on?
    There are at least 2 other Larrys who have posted here in the last few weeks?”

    LOL! So it was a “different Larry” who claimed that “arsen” means “arse???”

    Nice try, but no buy. It sounds too much like you.

  20. In other words, you have none. All over the web and not one to choose from. You will find many that simply reference the roots of the term in light of Biblical interpretation and nothing showing them in use in any other works written in Greek that are contemporary or predate Paul. Nothing beyond a Biblical echo chamber of repetition of the same limited sources with the same wonky idioms.

    “Bedder”? Really? There aren’t more descriptive or clearer terms for “Koites” A word which was adapted in Latin and subsequently English as coitus.

    The arse thing was 2 days ago. Not last night. “Arsen” does not seem to come up in non-biblical references. As for Thomas Jefferson, that story is in your head. You still like to quote founders out of context and without regard to their well known positions on the intersection of religion and government.

  21. This gets more fun all the time. Are you npw suggesting that nothing else was written on Koine Greek besides the Bible?

    Are you also suggesting that “koite” does not mean bed literally and sex euphemistically? And your support for that is…? I can’t wait to hear.

    “Not last night.”

    Neither was my comment referencing your blunder — it was the day after. Why argue about trivialities like that? Oh yeah, because you’ve wiped out on the issues.

    “As for Thomas Jefferson, that story is in your head.”

    No it isn’t. It’s on that previous thread and everyone saw it.

  22. Shawnie isn’t advancing his anti-gay agenda by revealing his obsession with “man-bedders.” Doesn’t that describe heterosexual women too?

  23. Sorry, Karla, that’s proof that you are posting an intentional mistranslation of the Bible–and those aren’t the words of Jesus anyhow. Once again, the epithet “homosexual” wasn’t invented until 1870.

    There’s just no use of anti-gays continuing to make that obviously false comparison of loving, committed same gender married American couples to “swindlers,thieves,drunkards and idolaters,slanderers,the sexually immoral,the greedy” (sic), and it’s really too late to post a weak “God bless” after you’ve falsely claimed God condemns.

  24. As despicable as the for-profit Knapps are… I hope they get the right to refuse services.

    I don’t get why people are obsessed by the notion of forcing people who hate them into performing a marriage ceremony with them. Personally, I don’t want someone who hates me for whatever bigoted reason involved at all in my day-to-day affairs, much less something like marriage.

    Personally, I’d like them to refuse services up front, rather then take my money and provide sub-par services out of some passive-aggressive hatred towards me. If we create a world where people are afraid to refuse services up front out of fear of fine or lawsuit, we get a society where the bigoted slights are less subtle. A society where we don’t know if who we are dealing with is a decent person who will do a good job for you, or someone who secretly hates you, but keeps it to themselves, and passively slights you through subpar work.

    With the internet, there’s hundreds of options out there apart from hiring the homophobic caterer to bake a cake for the marriage ceremony officiated by a homophobic minister while another hired homophobe photographs you. Plenty of tolerant businesses to choose from and far more deserving of patronage. I’d personally like the bigots out in the open where I can see and avoid them, not hiding due to fear and slighting me subtly.

  25. Poor, poor deluded Frank. There are already over a million American same gender married couples. The Iowa State Supreme Court unanimously established marriage equality in April 2009, and this is their answer to “You have the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex as anyone else”:

    “It is true the marriage statute does not expressly prohibit gay and lesbian persons from marrying; it does, however, require that if they marry, it must be to someone of the opposite sex. Viewed in the complete context of marriage, including intimacy, civil marriage with a person of the opposite sex is as unappealing to a gay or lesbian person as civil marriage with a person of the same sex is to a heterosexual. Thus, the right of a gay or lesbian person under the marriage statute to enter into a civil marriage only with a person of the opposite sex is no right at all. Under such a law, gay or lesbian individuals cannot simultaneously fulfill their deeply felt need for a committed personal relationship, as influenced by their sexual orientation, and gain the civil status and attendant benefits granted by the statute. Instead, a gay or lesbian person can only gain the same rights under the statute as a heterosexual person by negating the very trait that defines gay and lesbian people as a class-their sexual orientation.”

    http://www.iowacourtsonline.org/Supreme_Court/Varnum_v_Brien/Supreme_Court_Ruling/

  26. If that were the case, the Bible would have quoted Jesus as making anti-gay Hate Speech, but as we all know, Jesus took action that proved quite the opposite.

    It’s really sad to see anti-gays lie about Jesus and try to drag Him down to their level.

  27. No, “religious freedom” is just another anti-gay lie. Homophobia is a mental disorder, NOT a “faith.”

  28. Larry is correct. “They are literally ALL OVER the internet” means Shawnie knows we will just laugh at his source, an anti-gay Hate Cult.

  29. Shawnie, your freedom of religion means you can believe whatever sort of fantasy that Fred Phelps created that gives you pleasure. Please learn to accept no one else has to share your fantasies. Thank you.

  30. A sexual/romantic relationship between two people of the same sex will never make a marriage and will always be sinful nothing you can ever do to change that.

  31. It is not a desire to force them into performing the ceremony, its to penalize them for closing avenues of commerce normally open to the general public.

    It is because they chose to make their services something commercial in nature, not religious. Once the door is opened to allow discrimination in general commerce, it swings pretty wide. Once “religious belief” is used as an excuse for what amounts to be particularly malicious uncivil behavior, it doesn’t fall within reasonable limits, it gets increased. It infects things such as housing, employment and the ability to engage in public service.

    We penalize discrimination in business because the government has a duty to keep commerce open to all. Discrimination undermines the duties of those engaged in commerce to the public. The power to regulate businesses is a far greater interest to the public than legally recognizing one’s prejudices.

    Yes, there are separate avenues to pursue such business, but can you claim they are equal? Segregation in all forms of public life was based on the fiction of “separate but equal”. This was more lip service than reality. As they successfully argued in Brown v. Board of Ed in 1954, separate always meant inferior.

  32. BTW the story is bullcrap. The chapel could probably get an exemption under the Idaho anti-discrimination law anyway. So the issue is moot. The alleged lawsuit (if the complaint was even filed) is frivolous in nature. [See the related story on the subject]

  33. Carrot, are you also suggesting, as Larry has, that arsen does not mean male and koite does not mean bed literally and sex euphemistically? If so, then please present your translation and support it. Otherwise, you’re accomplishing exactly nothing here.

  34. Is incest also OK because Jesus didn’t go out of his way to specifically mention it?

    “Sexual Immorality” pretty well covered all the bases, particularly for something that there wasn’t much question about. Matt. 15:19

    Any thoughts yet on who Jairus’ daughter’s same-sex lover was?

  35. Uh, no, dear — not when you refer back to the Levitical passage from which the two key words were drawn. There you have men “bedding” men like they would women.

  36. “Are you npw suggesting that nothing else was written on Koine Greek besides the Bible?”

    You like arguing points nobody made and making weaselworded responses. Evidently you can’t seem to find Koine Greek works besides the New Testament of the Bible that use the term “Arsenokoites” or its root in such a manner.

    However, I found something [please note the use of links when referencing a source]:

    “One of the earliest appearances of the word (here the verb) occurs in Sibylline Oracle 2.70-77.10 Although the date of this section of the oracle — indeed, of the finished oracle itself — is uncertain, there is no reason to take the text as dependent on Paul or the New Testament. The oracle probably provides an independent use of the word. It occurs in a section listing acts of economic injustice and exploitation; in fact, the editors of the English translation here quoted (J. J. Collins) label the section “On Justice”:

    (Never accept in your hand a gift which derives from unjust deeds.)

    Do not steal seeds. Whoever takes for himself is accursed (to generations of generations, to the scattering of life.

    Do not arsenokoitein, do not betray information, do not murder. Give one who has labored his wage. Do not oppress a poor man. Take heed of your speech. Keep a secret matter in your heart. (Make provision for orphans and widows and those in need.)

    Do not be willing to act unjustly, and therefore do not give leave to one who is acting unjustly.”

    The term occurs in a list of what we might call “economic sins,” actions related to economic injustice or exploitation: accepting gifts from unjust sources, extortion, withholding wages, oppressing the poor. “Stealing seeds” probably refers to the hoarding of grain; in the ancient world, the poor often accused the rich of withholding grain from the market as a price-fixing strategy. I would argue that other sins here mentioned that have no necessary economic connotation probably do here. Thus the references to speech and keeping secrets may connote the use of information for unjust gain, like fraud, extortion, or blackmail; and “murder” here may hint at motivations of economic gain, recalling, for example, the murder of Naboth by Jezebel (1 Kings 21). In any case, no other term in the section refers to sex. Indeed, nothing in the context (including what precedes and follows this quotation) suggests that a sexual action in general is being referred to at all. If we take the context as indicating the meaning, we should assume that arsenokoitein here refers to some kind of economic exploitation, probably by sexual means: rape or sex by economic coercion, prostitution, pimping, or something of the sort.
    ..

    ” the context allows a reading of arsenokoitia to imply the unjust and coercive use of another person sexually.”

    “I should be clear about my claims here. I am not claiming to know what arsenokoités meant, I am claiming that no one knows what it meant. I freely admit that it could have been taken as a reference to homosexual sex. But given the scarcity of evidence and the several contexts just analyzed, in which arsenokoités appears to refer to some particular kind of economic exploitation, no one should be allowed to get away with claiming that “of course” the term refers to “men who have sex with other men.” ”
    -Dale B. Martin, Woolsey Professor of Religious Studies at Yale University
    http://www.clgs.org/arsenokoit%C3%A9s-and-malakos-meanings-and-consequences

    [please note in the footnotes the author criticizes Boswell and his counterpart Wright with equal measure]

  37. Why Larry, I thought you were sure that “arsen” meant arse (or maybe yellow powder)! LOL!

    Since you are evidently able to use google, here’s a little assignment for you. Look up “metrokoite,” then “doulokoite,” then “polukoite,” then “deuterokoite.” Then tell me why exactly we should monkey “arsenokoite” around into something different from what the obvious pattern of koine greek compound word formation indicates it should mean.

    And while you’re at it, please explain to us why you care about the translation of a work to which you assign no value or credibility. Thanks.

  38. Unlike yourself, I did a little more homework rather than just repeat apologetic nonsense and claim expertise. I never claimed there was a definite translation for the term. That was all you 🙂

    According to the article, nobody can really give a clear meaning of arsenkoites. That scholarship on the “man bedders” is specious and reductive. from the link,

    “I should be clear about my claims here. I am not claiming to know what arsenokoités meant, I am claiming that no one knows what it meant….no one should be allowed to get away with claiming that “of course” the term refers to “men who have sex with other men.” ””

    I can accept that assessment. It is far more honest than pretending to be an expert on ancient Greek on an internet discussion.

  39. “Unlike yourself, I did a little more homework rather than just repeat apologetic nonsense and claim expertise.”

    Oh puhleese. You randomly googled a website you liked and pasted from it without understanding it in the slightest. That is no substitute for EDUCATION.

    “I can accept that assessment.”

    Sure you do. Because you happen to like it. It does not, however, reflect any broad-based understanding of language, scripture, or ancient history.

    Did you finish the “koite” assignment?

  40. “Traditional marriage advocate”

    You mean like the Messiah Jesus right?

    Um, do we see the “first miracle” Jesus performed, performed in a Church or some place where two opposite sex people getting married? In fact, there is no such thing as same gender Christian marriage anywhere justified as such in and from the Bible.

    Jacob Lupfer’s Christian-bash piece fails to actually speak the truth that “Christian marriage” is man and woman/husband and wife, no matter the venue.

    Per God.

    And it looks for sure like God is behind the ADF. May they protect The Church until Jesus returns.

  41. But now they are being targeted like real Christian though.

    Only the true liar thinks that the LGBT community doesn’t have a blood lust towards authentic Christians.

    This couple never thought the horror of Sodomites demanding marriage would ever come to their “business.”

    By the way, I wonder what business Lot had in Sodom? His tormented soul would have been tormented why?

  42. Versus an anti-Christian hate Cult defined by the letters LGBTQ.

    You left that part out.

  43. “Shawnie, your freedom of religion means you can believe whatever sort of fantasy that Fred Phelps created that gives you pleasure. Please learn to accept no one else has to share your fantasies. Thank you.”

    While the atheists force their beliefs on every single (and married) person in the western world with no tolerance for dissent. True hypocrisy displayed for all to see.

    Atheism: See, the mentally ill CAN keep a job.

  44. This article is intriguing, these ministers profit off of a 40 billion dollar industry, that same argument can be used against the bag boy at Walmart who profits off a multi-billion dollar industry, although he only makes a couple hundred dollars a week.
    The writer of this article is making bank writing about how these people are making a profit, because according to him, only he should be able to state his beliefs and still profit.
    LGBT and Biblical Christianity contradict one another. You either build your house on the Word of God or on sinking sand. and Mr. Lucifer is stating that a person has to deny Christ to own a business, sounds like the apostate doctrine of demons.

  45. Oh no Dave!!!

    Christians will have to follow the same rules as everyone else does when conducting business!!!

    Nobody will treat them special when they want to treat other people like crap!!!

    Oh the horror!!!

  46. I was with you up until this line in your story (below). The are indeed both. You don’t actually think any church performs weddings for free do you? Even though this may have been a preemptive lawsuit, we all know where the gay marriage movement is heading (forcing religious institutions and vendors to perform services). That much is very clear.

    “The Knapps are businesspeople, not pastors. They abandoned their religious vocation the moment they traded the sacred meaning of marriage for a profit-making enterprise. “

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