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Eugene Peterson backtracks on same-sex marriage

Eugene Peterson. Screenshot from YouTube

(RNS) — “The Message” author Eugene Peterson says he regrets telling me he would officiate a same-sex wedding if asked to do so today by a gay couple who were “Christians of good faith.”

“On further reflection and prayer, I would like to retract that,” the evangelical author said in a statement.

Since we published the interview at RNS on Wednesday (July 12), the internet has caught fire. The article was the last of a three-part interview series that addressed a range of topics: why Peterson was stepping away from public life, what he thinks of Donald Trump, his view of megachurches, and whether he is afraid of death.

But nothing sparked more conversation than two questions I asked Peterson about same-sex relationships and marriage.


RELATED: Eugene Peterson had this to say about same-sex issues in 2014


Some have asked why I would ask these questions at all. There were two primary reasons. First, he is one of the most influential Christian thinkers in the world and homosexuality is one of the most contentious debates in the church today. What Peterson believes about this topic matters, which is more than evident in the reaction it generated.

Second, and perhaps more interesting, I had spoken with several prominent pastors, authors and theologians who intimated that Peterson had told them privately that he was affirming of same-sex relationships. This prompted my curiosity about his views. If true, I knew my readers would be interested.

I spoke to Peterson on July 6 at 3 p.m. by phone for about 33 minutes, in an interview arranged through his publicist. It was recorded with his permission.

My questions were pointed, as any serious journalist’s should be. They were respectful and in no way pushy. When asked about his views of homosexuality, Peterson shares fond memories of LGBT people he knew during his pastoral ministry. He talks about being proud of his former church for accepting a gay music minister. He said his LGBT friends have just as healthy a spiritual life as he does. And he called it “not a right or wrong thing as far as I’m concerned.” Peterson also acknowledged that these are not statements he would have made “20 years ago.”

These statements indicated that he indeed affirmed same-sex marriage as others had claimed. It would be remiss for me not to follow up, so I asked whether he would perform a gay marriage if he were pastoring today and an LGBT couple asked him. Though he always responds with lengthy replies, he opted for a one-word reply: “Yes.”

The condemnations from conservatives were swift. LifeWay, America’s largest Christian book chain, threatened to ban his books if he didn’t affirm a traditional view of marriage. The heat rose quickly, and then Peterson retracted his remarks, claiming he was put on the spot. While he said a same-sex couple would be welcome in his church today, he would not perform a same-sex wedding “out of respect to the congregation, the larger church body, and the historic biblical Christian view and teaching.”

It is possible Peterson felt he had been placed on the spot and offered an answer that doesn’t reflect his true conviction. But it is also important to note that in the week prior to the publication, there was no attempt to clarify or change his answer to these questions.

Some people have claimed that perhaps Peterson is “senile.” Quite frankly, this smacks of ageism to me. And it doesn’t align with either his cogent state during the interview or the eloquence with which he answered my questions.

To all the LGBT Christians who read Peterson’s words and felt a sense of hope but today feel like deflated tires: I am sorry if today feels like yet another church-induced bruise. Regardless, you are sons and daughters of Almighty God and the object of God’s love. In fact, God is obsessed with you. There is nothing you can do today to make God love you less or more. Trust that these statements are true of you and that their truthfulness is not dependent upon the statements or beliefs of any leader.

As Peterson himself once wrote, “God’s love is meteoric, his loyalty astronomic, His purpose titanic, his verdicts oceanic. Yet in his largeness nothing gets lost; Not a man, not a mouse, slips through the cracks.”

Those of us who follow these kinds of conversations and care about what a leader like Peterson thinks must now sort out what this means for this debate, if anything. All I know is that Eugene Peterson is a man of deep faith who has lived, in his words, “a long obedience in the same direction.” His life and ministry bear witness to his love for God, love for people, and his love for the Bible. Peterson’s views on same-sex marriage — whether he supports it or opposes it — have no bearing on my respect for him or his ministry.

I have nothing negative to say about Peterson today, and I wish many of the outraged conservative Christians had taken a similar posture yesterday.

(RNS senior columnist Jonathan Merritt writes the “On Faith and Culture” column)

About the author

Jonathan Merritt

Jonathan Merritt is senior columnist for Religion News Service and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. He has published more than 2500 articles in outlets like USA Today, The Week, Buzzfeed and National Journal. Jonathan is author of "Jesus is Better Than You Imagined" and "A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars." He resides in Brooklyn, NY.

498 Comments

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  • Long obedience will almost always eventually require at least some change in direction.

  • Eugene Peterson: Same-sex marriage is OK!

    Lifeway: We won’t sell your books.

    EP: Kidding! When you stop selling my books, I was kidding!

    ———-

    This is just more evidence that he’s always been a phony, just like Merritt, Evans & the rest of the “Christian” Left. They just follow the world. Peterson was just a little too quick to move on his audience.

    Churchgoers who support “same-sex marriage” — i.e., the “Christian” Left — have nearly identical views to the world on a host of issues such as abortion, adultery, porn, etc.. It shows who their real father is. http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/churchgoers-who-support-same-sex-marriage-are-identical-to-the-world/

    1 John 2:15-16 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

    Jude 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    James 4:4 You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore, whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

    Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

  • I think you missed an opportunity to gain insight into his thoughts on this topic by not asking him to explain his “yes.” As the reporter familiar with the audiences who would be interested in his answers and as a writer with a unique perspective on the issue presented, you should have anticipated the objections people may have had to his position and allowed him to defend himself in his words before he was put in a position of simply bowing out of the conversation to avoid controversy. You usually don’t miss such questions. I think your clear delight with getting the admission clouded your judgment with respect to asking an appropriate and necessary follow up question.

  • “Regardless, you are sons and daughters of Almighty God and the object of God’s love. In fact, God is obsessed with you.”

    Merritt is another wicked, lying “Christian” Leftist who knows nothing of the real God. John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

    There is plenty more like that if you actually read the Bible.

    Yes, God’s terms are indescribably gracious, but they are HIS terms. If you try to create your own terms — i.e., “God made me gay/lesbian/trans/adulterous/covetous/greedy/etc. so I can indulge my identity” — then you will not be reconciled to him and you will not be his son or daughter.

    Repent & believe.

  • “Yet in his largeness nothing gets lost; Not a man, not a mouse, slips through the cracks.””

    Huh?! No amount of persuasion will sway a hardened, rebellious heart if God hasn’t first made them spiritually alive. Note how these people will KNOW God exists and is punishing them but will still curse him rather than repent.

    Revelation 16:9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.Revelation 16:21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

  • Yes, the charge of senility seems ageist, but most of us are honestly puzzled. We spent years figuring out what we thought, years more if we changed our minds about an issue like this. We can’t imagine, short of a thunderbolt, a mere 24 hours of prayer and study leading us to say exactly the opposite of what we were quoted in a national publication saying. Perhaps that’s the next interview question, “How did this happen, Mr. Peterson?” All-night study? A vision? 24 hours of prayer and reflection is just not the experience most of us have in coming to conclusions about serious matters. And it left the hoopla — the joyful appreciation of many, the threats of Lifeway — completely unaddressed.
    I also think his previous remarks were rather odd, something along the lines of “lgbt people shouldn’t make a big deal out of it.” I was left wondering — how are lgbt persons in our churches to live then, not just like heterosexual people? And today’s remarks are similarly odd — he wouldn’t do a wedding “out of respect to a congregation?” What if that congregation wanted to see a wedding of its beloved children? What about the pastoral challenge to teach and to lead? I assume that a pastor would have to figure out a way to marry two people of different races, even if a congregation wasn’t approving. Isn’t this sorta like that? Congregational sensitivities are important, but not all that is important.
    I’m used to Peterson making careful, considered remarks and it didn’t sound like that yesterday or today. It seems he just wants the matter to go away, and it won’t. It can’t. Whatever you think should be the outcome, the question just can’t be stuffed back into a box. I respect Peterson’s decision if he wishes to say no more, but the rest of us will still have to face our brothers and sisters tomorrow, on both sides of this question.

  • Wow. I just don’t know how one Christian can judge the motive of another. Disagree with the thought or action, but how can you possibly know enough to render a verdict of “phony.”

  • It is extremely sad that commerce has such a strong affect on a persons belief that he could change his mind as quickly as saying “we will ban your books”. A true Christian response would be, ban them if you must but the truth is more important than money.

  • Yes, God love everyone. He loves the murders, gays, satan worshipers, etc… But, if they do not repent and accept Jesus as God, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven…

  • Do you not think commerce is why some said they did not support same sex marriage; but, changed their mind and said they support same sex marriage? A true christian does not support a mockery of God’s marriage becuase God does not support same sex.

  • Because this leftist christian is going against the bible by suppporting a sin.. Yes, everyone Sin; but, to say that sin is of God goes against everything God stands for… How can a christian say something that God said is a sin is blessed by God?

  • I agree with your position on same-sex relationships and I still have concerns about some of the things he has said, but I think this is an unfair accusation. I have a close family member who corresponds with Peterson and based on what they have shared with me, I don’t think he is the type who is driven by book sales. In any case, I’m somewhat doubtful Peterson sells many books through Lifeway stores. It strikes me as a different market than the one he appeals to.

  • Glad to hear you have the courage of your convictions.

    Now you just need some convictions.

  • And sure enough, out come the radical conservatives to fling their Theo-poo at other Christians for not being the right sort of Christian.

  • To be clear, I don’t think you and I are going to agree on this particular issue. But the particular vehemence you demonstrate makes me think you’ve never considered the possibility that you might have been wrong about something. That what you thought was faithful and right, was deeply mistaken. Your action or belief was in fact self-serving, or just misguided. Never happened? Could never have happened?

  • Ooooo, that was a good sound-bite. You hating on him **real** good, Ben!!
    Make Peterson pay for his criminal lack of support for Gay-Marriage around here.
    Slap him down like a mangy-hide homophobic dog, on STEROIDS!!

  • From your sermon, sounds like you may have projected your perspective onto a great pastor who prefers to listen and be non-directive than to weigh in on controversial issues.

  • Merritt is a great reporter, honestly a breath of fresh air in the current journalism world… But this, this honestly sounds plausible. I hope Mr. Merritt considers this as a possibility. Well said Jason.

  • I read so many comments below condemning the author and all Christians who don’t believe that homosexuality (and same-sex marriage) is a sin. It reminds me of a time long ago, when a religious orthodoxy rejected revolutionary new ideas. They eventually had the ringleader crucified as an example.

    Love. Love God, love your neighbor. This covers any requirement there might be of you. If that’s true, then God doesn’t care about all the rest. Humans do. God doesn’t care about marriage structures except insofar as they impact the 2 commands above. So, if your marriage doesn’t preclude loving God and loving others, then it would seem you’re good to go.

    This is my Christian view. Is it orthodox? Not at present. But that didn’t stop Jesus, so I feel like I’m right where I need to be.

    If your faith doesn’t allow you to love God and love your neighbor – all of your neighbors – including your homosexual neighbors in a same-sex marriage – then I refer you back to the 2 commands above. Don’t waste your time trying to stand between God and myself, or for that matter, between God and anyone else. That isn’t your place.

  • Yeah, I can believe that. With that one word, he had his story, his lede, and his headline. He probably didn’t want to jinx it.

  • It seems he wants it both ways. He wants to sound positive and supportive to LGBTQ Christians while evading the church-splitting marriage and ordination controversies. For a supposedly well-respected elder, he seems either spineless or incoherent in his convictions.

  • If you think Peterson, Merritt, Evans, and the rest of the Christian Left are phonies, why are you on a website where the Christian Left is given a voice. Is it hatred or intolerance for those who read Scripture text in a different light or interpretation? Is it because you want an honest debate of current social issues in light of Scripture? Or are you being phony by commenting on inclusive Christian websites only to push your blog? I believe it’s the latter… If you don’t agree with an open and inclusive website that caters to all Christians, than find another that agrees only with your interpretation and how you think.

  • Citation needed. There’s no evidence at all that there’s anything “truthful” about anything that was said. Bigotry leads to abuse and is the outgrowth of hypocrisy, as Eternity Matters has amply demonstrated, and I don’t find that a very compelling sales point.

  • I think it’s fascinating how “religious” people get so hung up on the minor physical realities & choices of living this physical life–totally missing the whole concept of internal spiritual connection with one’s Creator….the things of this world will go away when we pass on to the next phase of the adventure towards Paradise–but what if, instead of developing the internal spiritual connections with Deity, you spent your life squabbling over irrelevant crap and developing multitudinous hatreds instead?

  • I think it is particularly sad that christians cannot share what is in their hearts without some of their brothers and sisters slamming them to the ground with cries of, “Heretic!” How sad that we live in such fear of each other.

  • “What does scripture say?” – Jesus
    I never hear EP or any of the supporters of homosexuality ever appeal to scripture. In fact when they do mention scripture it is usually to criticize it or to mock it.
    Hmmmm.

  • There are plenty of trained theological scholars who have explored the subject in depth. If you are unaware of their work, it may be because you have only read people who agree with and support your interpretation of the text.

  • I believe what happens to a lot of people is that with aging they start to realize that it just doesn’t matter anymore. Their lives are rolled out a certain way and depending on who they associate with will depend on how they respond. Fortunately, many will evaluate their positions before passing on, and this is where humanity comes into the picture and it will usually supercede all the dysfunctional thinking we have been carrying for a lifetime!

  • I served as a teaching assistant for Eugene for three years w Fuller’s D. Min. program. The LAST thing this is to this man, is an economic adjustment. Sooner cut out his own heart…

    “It has never been my intention to participate in the kind of lightless heat that such abstract, hypothetical comments and conversations generate.” – THAT’S Eugene to the core.

    Eugene is pure “pastor” – Which means he engages real humans and brings God’s story to bear in the messy, unquantifiable context of real human relationships. That’s what we believers need, and how the Bible outlines the nature of “pastor”. Very glad to hear his clarification… Blessings.

  • “If you think Peterson, Merritt, Evans, and the rest of the Christian Left are phonies, why are you on a website where the Christian Left is given a voice. ”

    Uh, because it is a moral good to expose wolves?!

    “Is it hatred or intolerance for those who read Scripture text in a different light or interpretation?”

    LOL. And yet another concession speech by someone with no facts or logic to support their views! Just play the pathetic “hate card.”

    “If you don’t agree with an open and inclusive website that caters to all Christians, than find another that agrees only with your interpretation and how you think.”

    Such a typical Leftist – open and inclusive to everyone who agrees with them, but everyone else must be excluded! You pathetic snowflakes don’t even realize what hypocrites you are! So tone deaf.

    Really, are you a conservative trying to stereotype the “Christian” Left? I mean, that’a a pretty good job you are doing but that isn’t very nice.

  • Warrantless (and Christ-less “awful”?) condemnation, friend. I think you need to know Eugene, the heart of a pastor – and perhaps the heart of our Lord, Jesus…??

  • The heart of Jesus? Yes, for you: Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?

    Matthew 7:15–20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

    And so many more.

  • “It has never been my intention to participate in the kind of lightless heat that such abstract, hypothetical comments and conversations generate.”

    Sounds like something that the better class of condescending racist would have said back when I was young to avoid having to address issues of institutional injustice.

    No wonder white Evangelicals liked him…until now anyway.

  • Look to Tony Compolo if you want to see a courageous Christian stance for all people. He too was not only threatened…..they cut him off and yet he stands.

  • He does to say “well done my son, well done.” Does the bible not say homosexuals in addition to other behaviors will not the kingdom? Why are you trying to say something is of God when the bible clearly says otherwise?

  • I don’t really know how anyone can read LEVITICUS 18:22; 20:13 without being convicted of what’s in God’s Heart about this issue. He’s talking to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people and say to them: ‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.'”

  • Does the bible not say marriage is between a man and a women? Does the bible not say homosexuald among other behaviors will not enter the kingdom of heaven? This is not bigotery, its called the truth.. Where in the bible does it says God considers marriage between two people of the same sex? Please explain!!!

  • Where in the bible does it say marriage is between two people of the same sex? Does the bible not say homosexuals among other behaviors will not enter heaven? Do you have any proof that God condines this behavior? Please explain!

    Yes Gof loves everyone but he does not condone all behaviors. Do you believe that everyone is going to heaven?

  • I rather be on the right side of God instead of the right side if man made history! God will be very pleased with me for upholding his word with love…

  • Eugene is pure “pastor” – Which means he is less interested in toeing the mark in some abstract theological argument, and more determined to bring the truth of God’s story to bear in the messy context of the real human individuals. Not a nuance I find either side of the SSM issue is particularly attune to.
    I can be (and am) historically Biblical re SSM. This doesn’t, and hasn’t engendered “hate” in my heart toward my LGBT friends. It IS possible, by the Spirit of God, in light of the great mercy we have been shown, to be very tender toward the one who is being seduced by this particular spirit of this age. That’s what our world really needs, and how the Bible regards the nature of those who are in the Spirit of Christ. Blessings to you, GP.

  • Again what evidence do you have to say God approves if same sex relationships? He did not even bless ANY same sex relationship to produce life… So, how do come up with the thinking that God approves of same sex relationships?

  • Do you have any evidence that God approves of same sex relationships? Maybe you can change my mind.. And God love everyone but everyone will not go to heaven.. Am I wrong?

  • Luke 9:55 “But He turned and rebuked them, ‘You do not know what kind of spirit you are of.”
    Luke 13:6-9 “He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’’

  • I found it utterly refreshing that the answer was simply yes. No need to over explain or delve deep into a simple question.

    the pure scope of options for those interested in why people have changed their mind is huge. Moreover there is so much writing done by LGBTQ people that needs more prominence that a simple yes to a simple question seems entirely appropriate. No need to over complicate it.

  • Wow, random Bible verse generator much? You have no idea how much time and money I give to the kingdom. And even if I was a typical Leftist and gave less time, money and blood than conservatives it still wouldn’t mean my comments about Peterson are wrong.

    You are just throwing out pathetic insults because you can’t admit the truth: You are Peterson’s fanboy but he’s a phony. In his own words! Just read what he said in the interview, then his mealy-mouthed follow-up. Then read how he took homosexuality OUT of 1 Cor 6 and inserted an environmental message — because the Holy Spirit apparently didn’t get it right the first time! https://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/a-message-about-the-message/

    Oh, and you are blocked now so I’ll miss your next attempt to attack me while ignoring what Peterson said.

    But thanks for the thread, because this is golden. People can see who comes with facts and logic and who throws out one fallacy after another to distract from the truth about Peterson — and you!

    One more time for you and your “hero”

    Eugene Peterson: Same-sex marriage is OK!

    Lifeway: We won’t sell your books.

    EP: Kidding! When you stop selling my books, I was kidding!

  • God bless you, Eternity Matters. He’s is highly invested in breaking the real power of the real curse in our lives – Grace to you.

  • Coming from a conservative evangelical church in which people use “The Message” translation (as well others, including the good ol’ KJV), and which is less than an hour away from a Southern Baptist seminary that actually uses Peterson’s books as assigned textbooks for some classes, I’d have to disagree with you on your last point.

  • “Do you have any evidence that God approves of same sex relationships even exists?”

    I can answer that question – you have no legitimate evidence at all. The only thing you have is the Bible which is essentially a combination of delusion and fraud compiled during a period in history when ignorance was virtually all anyone had to work with. And the cleverest people realized that they could exploit it all to control the experiences, thought processes, beliefs, and behaviors/actions of the masses. And thus, some new organized religions were born.

  • “The condemnations from conservatives were swift. LifeWay, America’s largest Christian book chain, even threatened to ban his books if he didn’t affirm a traditional view of marriage. The heat rose quickly, and today, Peterson retracted his remarks, claiming he was put on the spot. While he said a same-sex couple would be welcome in his church today, he would not perform a same-sex wedding “out of respect to the congregation, the larger church body, and the historic biblical Christian view and teaching.” . . . and, out of respect and love for the wealth he wants to continue accumulating from over thirty books he has written.

  • Jane, are we following Leviticus word for word now? Because God’s Heart says a lot about women, as well. And eating pork and shrimp. And a lot of other things that I bet you conveniently ignore because they don’t fit nicely into your bigoted view of the world. And I bet you didn’t properly bathe, old-time Jewish style, after you menstruated this month, which would probably lead you to being stoned to death, and to your husband being stoned if he had sexual relations with you. Also, since we are talking about God’s Heart as expressed through the law of Moses, you know that your same husband can have multiple wives and concubines, and you cannot say a word about it. God’s Heart, according to Leviticus, was completely okay with that. Wanna talk about God’s Heart again?

  • Gotcha! You dont believe in the bible.. Then, why are you speaking on sonething that has to do with religion and the bible? Are you here to try to destroy religion?

    Yes there is evidence that God exist: how do you think life came about?
    How do you think earth is able to stay afloat in space? Why do you think that a male and female is the only union that is able to produce life? I bet you have no clue or answer! Lol I bet you believe in science which changes everyday…

    But, are you not trying to control experiences and beliefs by your promotion of gay behavior? All I said was God does not approve of it. And if that is what you believe about God and the bible, why dont you let religious people believe what they believe? Why are gay advocates want the church to go against what they believe? It souds like you are all about control instead of freedom of beliefs. But, the faithfull will not fall for it because the bible talks about this type of deceitful actions.. This conversation is over because you can have a serious conversation with a non believer about religion… lol

  • Peterson may not care, but his publisher, NavPress, probably cares a LOT. As an ex-lawyer, I would be asking if Peterson’s publishing contracts include a “morals” clause which was invoked to preserve NavPress’s financial interests.

  • I think I’d rather go to hell first than believe in your tight, tiny, shoved into a box that you carry around “god”.

  • Not for nothing, but how many separate articles do you think Jonathan Merritt can produce out of what appears to be one or two interviews with the same person?

  • A man and a woman and a woman and her concubine and her concubine (Jacob, Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, Zilpah). Or a man and a woman and the widow of his brother (Onan)…or a man after God’s own heart and the several women he was married to (that’d be David if you couldn’t figure out the reference). Remember, this same Bible also has a rule about how a rapist can pay the victim’s father 50 shekels and she’s forcibly married to her rapist. (Deuteronomy 22) Seriously, the Bible isn’t very good for women, which is why we’ve moved past it in our law and jurisprudence.

  • 60 years ago they defended legalized discrimination and segregation in open commerce.

    Now they are doing it again.

  • So his genuine belief was changed due to coercion by Christian bigots applying pressure. Sounds about right.

    If the anti gay Christians were so correct and moral in their views, they wouldn’t have to resort to coercion to combat contrary ideas.

  • Because you only assumed it was considered a sin. Based on interpretations that appealed to you. Because religion is great for enabling bigotry and for avoiding rational discussion.

  • How can I assume when the bible says so? What interpretations do you have that says it is not a sin? Bigotry is subjective! What rational thought could you have to say God approves of same sex marriage? The government can do whatever it want. But, I am talking about God, the church, and the bible?

  • Oh I’ve read their tortured exegesis or rather their eisegesis. Their interpretations are textbook examples of begging the question. Btw I have swamp land in FL if you believe their nonsense.

  • The claim the Bible says so is based entirely on the interpretation you choose to accept. There are numerous sects which not only do not share your view but look to the Bible to justify their disagreement.

    500+ sects of Christianity are living proof that nobody has a monopoly on biblical interpretation, nor is there even remote agreement between sects on many fundamental issues.

    You may claim to have the one and only interpretation of the Bible and God backs your opinion. But that is just self righteous ego talking. It’s nothing anyone has to accept at face value.

  • Really pretty silly. Even for you. I don’t hate him, I never even heard of him before. I just note that as with so many snowflakes, he certainly melts easily enough.

  • Andchwich crowd is he he following, little man? The people who try to love everyone, as commanded, or the ones who pretend to love?

  • My oft repeated point exactly. I refer to it as Christians flinging Theo poo at other Christians for not being the right sort of hristian.

    It’s funny how the Big Ol’ Atheist is the one telling them to stop.

  • Respectfully, it’s still not Eugene. And all the more not an 84 year old Eugene who has no need to cow-tow to institutional coercion. It really is about being fiercely pastoral re personal context – as well as
    being “true to the Bible” too.
    Blessings to you, friend.

  • You still have not provided a scripture that says God approves of same sex marriage and you are misinterpreting that scripture…

    Scripture: If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

    One points to note:
    This scripture is intended to instruct the Israelites on how to deal with and address a rape situation if and when it occurs. Because rape happen, am I wrong?
    And if a women was not a virgin back then, would another man want her? No! I know you are trying your hardest to discredit the bible, whick it wont work; but, you can not say the bible supports gay behavior by trying to point out othet scriptures that you are misinterpreting… May God bless you!

  • Lol can you provide a scripture that says God or the bible supports gay behavior? Stop evading the question by going of topic.. Its either you can or can not provide one! Which is it?

  • No one is being seduced by this particular spirit of this age. What is happening is that the reality of antigay prejudice, so long disguised as “sincere religious belief”, is finally getting exposed for what it is– an ancient, vicious, deeply ingrained bigotry of monumental proportions, comparable only to what was done to Jews for 1900 years of Christian “love.”.

    What other sin in the history of Christianity has gotten so many people going for so long and so viciously? “God will destroy America for treating gay people decently.” Not for our wars, not for our genocides, not for our sodom like inhospitality, not for slavery and segregation, not for anything except that two people may decide to use their personal genitalia in ways that really bother people whose business it simply isn’t.

    And holy horrors! what if those people wish to love each other and make a commitment to each other, standing in front of their families, friends, churches– yes!!! Churches!!!– and communities? OMG!!!! NOnononononononononono. I know so many couples who have been together longer than all three of Holy Newt’s, or all four of Holy Limbaugh, or all three of President Grabby McPussy, so beloved of evangelicals because he promises to give them back some of their privilege and dominion Over the lives of others.

    Gay marriage makes mock of god’s plan for marriage, men, and women? I’m sorry, but you must have missed where heterosexuals have been doing that for centuries.

  • Well here’s your chance. Give me one small example of the “exegesis” of the Rom. 1: 24ff verses. I’ll listen.

  • And the evil of anti gay theology is certainly known by the evil fruit is
    Produces.

  • Adulterous, phony, pornographic president of the US was supported overwhelmingly by the Evangelical Right. A woman who stayed in her marriage despite the adultery of her spouse was condemned.

  • bigot [big-uh t] 1. a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

    Sounds like the Left to me. And they use coercion on bakers, florists, etc. who refuse to participate in same-sex celebrations.

    We aren’t anti-gay. We gladly share the Gospel with them — http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/evangelism-experiences-1/

    But we are correct and moral in our views, because we are agreeing with God. http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/problems-with-pro-gay-theology-2/ The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Bible-believing Christians & even 2/3 of pro-gays can see that. Think about that: 2/3 of pro-gay types AGREE with how we interpret the Bible.

    It isn’t coercion to say to people like Peterson, “We are Christians, and you are saying non-Christian things, so we don’t plan to market you.”

    Forgive me not replying in the future, I’ll be blocking as these threads are usually not very productive to me. Hope you read carefully and reconsider your views.

  • I don’t believe it. That’s why, when I nearly became a Christian 45 years ago, I didn’t. Because the message was not “for god so loved the world” the message was “god loves you so much that he invented hell just in case you don’t love him back.”

  • Be careful what you wish for. The Bible is the word of the one true God. You will face him one day to account for you life. You’ll have either repented and trusted in Jesus or you’ll pay for your sins forever in Hell.

    You can’t dictate the terms and conditions to parents, bosses, teachers, police, or even a McDonald’s cashier, so don’t be foolish and think you can do that with God. The rich young ruler walked away sadly when he didn’t like God’s terms and conditions but Jesus didn’t chase after him to negotiate.

    http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2014/07/19/if-you-cant-dictate-the-terms-with-a-mcdonalds-cashier-what-makes-you-think-you-can-do-so-with-god/

  • “LifeWay, America’s largest Christian book chain, threatened to ban his books if he didn’t affirm a traditional view of marriage.” So if you threaten someone’s livelihood to make them conform to your ideas you’re a Good Christian? I don’t think that’s how it should work.

  • 3500+ years of Jewish/Christian theological interpretations isn’t just current speculations.

  • Sadly, it looks as though Peterson was bullied into recanting by opposing Christians, just as others had been bullied (notably Gallileo); sadder still was his bending to the pressure.

    I am not making a moral judgement of Peterson here, though what he did was objectively wrong. But I am angry at fellow Christians who ‘gang up’ on dissenters with such scathing intolerance. Their conduct will receive the greater condemnation.

  • Lifeway isn’t Barnes and Noble. They do not want to confuse their religiously targeted audience eith false doctrine. I don’t blame them.

  • I see none where they addressed it in the first place out of Leviticus, which no Christian takes at face value (except against other people).

    Bigoted Christians love losing context and making wild conflation to support their interpretations. Proof texting rather than looking to act in a moral manner. You want scriptural support for LGBT existing, go to the websites and churches of those affirming sects. I am not such an egomaniac to believe only one interpretation of scripture ever exists.

    Every affirming sect and believer has a host of scripture supporting their views. Most notably would come the notion that love the neighbor isn’t a conditional statement or has stipulations annexed to it. What you propose is hate of thy neighbor. Excuses to treat them as less than human.

    You want to proof text your way into justifying bigotry, I won’t stop you. Obviously being malicious is a defining feature of your Christian belief. One which clearly appeals to you above all other consideration.

  • Oh poor EP. Bullied by Christians to recant. Is their no stopping those fascist Christians? (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

  • The Bible may read that way now of homosexuals, but not when those passages were written. The words ‘homosexual’ and ‘heterosexual’ did not exist then. Nor did current concepts and understanding of human sexuality.

  • I understand your point. The problem with approved doctrine is that it’s often wrong — think of Church support for slavery, segregation, anti-Semitism, a flat earth, etc.

  • Adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, and sodomites will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is what the Bible says. You can choose to believe that or not, but you don’t get to change it because it makes you feel bad.

  • One big difference: the existence of secular authorities is beyond question. The existence of gods isn’t.

  • Neither did the word gay excist.. But, the bible talk about the sexual actions of homosexuals and heterosexuals.. ex, should not have sex outside of the biblical marriage.. man shall not lie with a man…

  • Glad you asked such a pertinent question. God usually, in his own way and time, stops them by exposing their error and deceit, just as he did with those opposing the truth Galileo expressed. We call that process ‘history’. And no one can stop it.

  • God and the bible adressed it by saying marriage is between a man and a women. Why would you need to address any other form of marriage? If it is not between a man and a women, then is not marriage! Is that so hard to understand.. The new testament als says the drunk, homlsexals, people in adultey, etc, will not enter the kingdom of heaven, am I wrong? The truth is not bigotry. But, I forgot anything that goes against homosexuals is bigotry.. Gotcha! Are you saying God is bigoted?

  • Homosexuality as a natural orientation was unrecognised in ancient times. So when, say, two males were sexually involved with one another, certain ancients (Jews and Christians, for example) disapproved of it, ritually or morally, because the participants would have been considered what we today call ‘heterosexual ‘ males engaging in uncustomary sex.

  • Huh! God loves you which is why God forgives ALL sins, does he not? Under you logic, everyone should go to heaven regardless if you repent or not.. Do you know that murders go to heaven if they repent? So God does love all and if you love him you will try to live how be wants you to live. And yes everyone sin which is why he forgives.all sin if you repent.. Try it one day and you might have a different view.. I did not beleive in God for 30 years of my life; but, that changed due finding peace and salvation on his word..

  • ‘Drunkards’ would include people ill through alcoholism. God will welcome and heal the sick.

    Don’t set too much store by what the ancients wrote: their knowledge of human affairs was far from perfect…like their pronouncements on who will, or will not, enter the Kingdom.

  • Just one God. And deep down you know it but are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. Every moral claim you make proves that you know there is such a thing as right and wrong, and molecules created from nothing and “evolving” to what we see today could never account for consciousness, rationality and more.

    Repent and believe while you can.

    Romans 1:18–20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

  • Atheists can’t go three sentences without contradicting their worldview. In their nothingness-to-molecules-to-man worldview, there is no logical grounding for “goodness.” Sure, we all know deep down about transcendent rights and wrongs*, but atheism can’t account for that. It is all about survival of the fittest and getting your “selfish” genes into the next generation. Darwinism doesn’t select for truth, just survability, so atheists can’t even be sure that what they know is true or that it would matter. On their view a Muslim terrorist isn’t really doing anything “bad” because evolution caused it, not his will.

    And many leading atheists not only concede this but lead with it! https://winteryknight.com/2016/07/07/atheist-jerry-coyne-explains-why-morality-is-impossible-for-atheists-2/

    And of course atheists tend to be pro-abortion and pro-LGBTQX, which is the ultimate in NOT getting your selfish genes into the next generation.

    The truth that atheists hate is that none of us are good. We have rebelled against a perfect and holy God and need the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. The atheists reject that Good News to their eternal detriment.

    When criticizing religion, atheists ignore the obvious: If their Darwinian worldview was true, then it would be the 100.00% cause of Christianity and all other religions. What else could it be? So why be so mad about it?

    We have tons of evidence for our views, but atheists cover their ears and shout more nonsense from the Big Book O’ Atheist Sound bites. http://rationalperspective.wordpress.com/theism/ http://winteryknight.com/2016/04/02/ryan-bells-year-of-atheism-testimony-shows-need-for-apologetics-2/

    More here about how atheists steal “rights” from God: https://stream.org/atheists-steal-rights-god/ .

    *Romans 1:18–20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

  • No one is perfect! But, he was supported becuase by evangelicals because of Mike Pence.. And the democratic party was attacking religous individals. They were also going to appoint federal judges who would get rid of rigious freedom in the public square. But, would the evangelicals support for Trump be any worse than someone who supports legal murder of babies?

  • “No one can stop it.” That describes God’s word. And history is nothing more than His story.

  • No, there have been thousands of gods (millions if you count Hinduism) claimed throughout history. Yours is just one of them. They are easily disproved by their writings. As to an intelligent creator who started the ball rolling billions (trillions?) – what is referred to as Deism – I cannot begin to prove or disprove.

  • You say its natural.. Are there not ex gays? If it was natural why is it that homosexuality can not produce life while most heterosexual can produce life.. why did God not make them equal? You are totally lost!

  • Where in the Holy Bible– Old or New Testament is homosexuality and same sex marriage not a sin? When Jesus spoke to the Pharisee who had come “tempting Him” about divorce Jesus cited the Law as given By God-to Moses in Genesis 1:27;and 2:24 There were 400 years of silence from God between the rejection and mocking of Old Testament Prophets and the coming of Jesus . Yet Jesus reminded the Pharisee of Genesis 1: 27 7 2;24 . I believe Jesus would love the sinner but HATE the sin . When Jesus sent out the twelve–and another 70 also He reminded those he sent of the example of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19: said that acity or house that rejected those He sent –were to be left “shake the dust off from your sandals -for it will be better for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of Judgement than for that city. ” There is No justification in Scripture that suggests Jesus would speak otherwise even today.

  • And if you want to say it happens the wild, those same anomals that engage in what we deem as homosexual behavior also engage in heterosexual behavior.. the only animal that refuses to engage in heterosexula actions is a captured sheep! Go figure..

  • Firstly, Deuteronomy (14:3) calls eating pork, shellfish and cheeseburgers “detestable” using the exact same word in Hebrew!

    Secondly, Jewish commentary on those two verses is unanimous. They condemn one act: male anal sex. Many gay men don’t have anal sex and lesbians certainly don’t have male anal sex. So being sloppy about what this law says isn’t going to convict anyone.

    Thirdly, the Mosaic Code applies to Jews keeping kosher only.

    Fourthly and finally, Jesus, Paul and James all say that if you use the Mosaic Law as a basis on which to judge others, you must keep all 617 commands perfectly else you’re a hypocrite. You can’t condemn others for not following all of the commands when you’re not following all of them yourself, or else as Paul says in Romans 2, you bring judgment upon yourself.

  • Nonsense. Modern man is at least 50,000 years old and survived and prospered. We formed tribes and cooperated with each other. We took care of the sick, old and wounded. We buried our dead. We fought with some tribes and cooperated with others for trade and marriage partners. We had art, music and dancing. This well before the advent of Judaism and Christianity and in lands not touched by it. That is how mankind survived – by cooperation and social bonds. You obviously are not well versed in the theory of evolution.

  • The fact that homosexuality exists attests its naturalness; this is true also of heterosexuality. You cannot, logically, deny this fact of homosexuality without simultaneously denying it of heterosexuality.

    There are ex-PRACTISING gays. But there are no ex-gay-orientated people.

    Why do you insist that sexual acts be morally affirmed only by reproduction? As you yourself concede, even heterosexual acts cannot all be reproductive. So what else could morally validate them? (Go on; have a guess.)

  • So trump is going to hell? You left out the revilers and slanderers from your list. Perhaps these include people who use words like sodomites, perverts, and heretics.

  • Can you tell us anything about the validity of the criticism of The Message Bible’s translation of Romans 1:27? I.e., saying the “abuse” and “defiling” of men with men or women with women was “all lust, no love”? Some evangelicals have alleged that Peterson purposely opened the door here for same-sex marriage, in that the word “love” does not appear in the Greek text.

  • No reading thatdoesnt assume that homosexuality is the sodom story supports he idea that that is what it was about,

    You find what you want to find in your bible

  • he is one of the most influential Christian thinkers in the world and homosexuality is one of the most contentious debates in the church today.
    This single statement proves that the Falling Away is COMPLETE. Debate? Shouldn’t even be a conversation.

  • The assumption here is that “love” means “affirm whatever I want to do.” Any parent knows that’s not an accurate definition of love. For those of us who believe the Bible is God-breathed, the infallible revelation of God’s will, we believe it is most loving not to affirm, but to call people out of a way of life that is opposed to what God has called us all to. To encourage someone to continue to sin isn’t loving, but destructive.

    I do think that some conservative Christians have latched onto homosexuality for special vehemence that they don’t apply to greed, selfishness, gossiping, and other sins that we’re called to reject. At the same time, I don’t know people who claim gossiping is a good thing; instead, they’ll pretend that what they do doesn’t really count. Whereas homosexuals are claiming that what they do isn’t a sin at all, but is God-blessed. That attempted redefinition is, I think, part of what gets the ire up.

  • In fairness, while some were using the Bible to defend slavery, the strongest abolitionists were committed Christians who based their actions on their Biblical beliefs.

  • You’re the one blocking people and taking your toys and going home. You sound like the snowflake to me.

  • This response is usually seen by those Twitter and Facebook by people with no religious background who resort to name calling. “Pathetic, snowflake, hypocrite, illogical, wolves, etc.” Image if I wasn’t a Christian and you called me these things. Would I want to do have anything to do with your religion? Is name calling because some disagrees with you, show Christ love? If you go back to what I said, the most “offensive” thing I said was about using an inclusive religious website to promote your blog. The venom with which you responded shows how little of an understanding you have of Christ. Using terms like snowflake shows how much American political discourse has influenced the Church creating a dynamic where it’s a separate religion all together. You say how can I justify the things the Christian Left believe? I say to you how can you justify using the vitriol that you used towards me because I may question certain beliefs and teachings? I know you’ll believe that “this snowflake’s” feelings were hurt. That’s actually far from the truth. I’m happy… I’m happy to expose the merciless, name calling, fraudulent beliefs you try to inflict on others because you believe you’re superior in your interpretation of Scripture. Hopefully, you’ll learn to love others regardless of interpretation differences…

  • No, that is your assumption: that everyone else thinks of love in this way.

    Love devoid of self-sacrifice, compassion, mercy, forgiveness, etc is an impostor.

    Homosexuals are as capable of expressing love as heterosexuals.

  • I don’t think it was so much that his judgment was clouded, more that it was such a stunning response that he went with it without considering that followup was necessary.

  • True. But then you must concede that Christians can misunderstand their ‘holy book’. As much now as in the past.

  • How do you know that there no ex-orientated people? If these people say they are ex-orientated, who are you to say they are lying? How can you tell them that they are lying? Would that not be equated to someone telling gays that they were not born gay?

    Yes there are all types of behaviors committed by humans. God knew this when he said how to live in order for us to go to heaven.. and There is homosexuality in the bible which is why God spoke on that behavior in addition to sexual behaviors outside of marriage..

    Yes all heterosexuals can not reproduce due to defects but homosexuals do not have that issue… Nothing is 100% except homosexual behavior not being able to reproduce. Reproduction is not the only thing that affirm morally sexually acts.. Diseases, naturally producing the substance needed to have sex instead of buying substance, and using a vagina vs an a$$ to have sex…

    Why is it that God did not make homosexuals with something else besides an a$$ for them to have sex.. He did that for heterosexuals..

  • I’ve read many of them, and their line of argument ALWAYS ends up with the minimalization, or the outright discarding, of scripture. Sorry but that’s not an option.

  • Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe you’re right, but I’m not prepared to go so far as to say “He’s awful,” or to claim that he’s only motivated by money. Have you read any of his other books besides The Message? I’ve read some of his other stuff and found it helpful.

  • Bisexuals is evident that it is a choice.. but, that is another topic! However, we are talking abot gays which only engage in sex with the same sex… if being gay was natural should we have animals that only engage in homosexual behavior and no heterosexual behavior, correct?

  • Jewish commentary is pretty unanimous on the pshat — the plain meaning — of the verses, that it refers to anal sex between men. Over the centuries, Jewish commentary also expanded that to other male-male sexual conduct, although there is a disagreement over whether the traditional prohibition on lesbianism comes from these verses, or from somewhere else entirely (the Talmudic discussion on lesbianism arises over whether such sexual conduct makes a woman a non-virgin..). In modern times, the Conservative movement has ruled that only the pshat of the Leviticus verses is controlling. This is becoming the de facto view of much of the liberal-leaning Orthodox world as well, with a heavy dose of don’t-ask-don’t-tell plus the use of individual dispensations if condoms are used.

  • According to this report, Peterson backed off by saying “he would not perform a same-sex wedding ‘out of respect to the congregation, the larger church body, and the historic biblical Christian view and teaching.’” His statement does not imply he believes same-sex wedding forbidden by God. To the contrary!
    The historic biblical Christian view and teaching are mistaken, but God will not let his people remain in error and eventually respect for the Church body will be manifested only by celebrating same-sex marriages. Peterson believes that.
    I pray that my fellow conservative evangelical Christians who disagree with Peterson will learn the truth about God’s will for same-sex marriage, and I repeat an offer I made previously in this forum:
    I have written an essay proving, with traditional techniques of interpretation and none of the pseudo-arguments offered by liberal revisionists, that God reveals in the Bible his will that the Church celebrate homosexual marriage just as it celebrates heterosexual marriage. I make not only an affirmative case for my thesis but refute all the conservatives’ arguments to the contrary — all that I know of.
    My essay has been read and criticized by many learned and mature Christians, including seminary professors. Their criticisms have helped me improve it, but not one has refuted any of its main arguments.
    Do you have interest in the subject, an open mind, and time to peruse a rather scholarly essay? If so, ask me by email for a copy of the latest version. I will send it in reply with only one request — that you give me your severest criticism of it. As a conservative evangelical, I am unhappy to advocate same-sex marriage by the Church; doing so has alienated me from many of my fellows. So, in seeking correction, I have a social motive besides my devotion to truth and to pleasing God.

    Richard Bell, [email protected]

  • It is indeed just another reminder that the majority church world rabidly despises LGBT folks but also extends the brutalization to allies. Church is no place for self-respecting gay people. The more I read and learn and experience, the more I am convinced that there is no place in church for gay people and that God is, at best, ambivalent towards them. Perhaps all mean-spirited Roman Catholics, evangelicals, most main-stream Protestants, and Westboro Baptist Church are more in sync with God than loving, reasonable people want to admit. It saddens me that Peterson was bullied into a retraction.

  • Can a straight person be turned gay? If he can, then he was never straight to begin with.

    Can a gay person be turned straight? If he can, then he was never gay to begin with.

    You have bought into the fallacy that sexual orientation is a choice.

    (Sigh) What the ancients addressed was not homosexuality as we know and understand it today, but what they considered a human and cultural aberration : people engaging in sexual activity that was not considered customary. Read Paul in Romans: he clearly thought that this activity did not manifest from a natural and different sexual orientation, but by deliberate choice: ‘…EXCHANGING natural (customary) for unnatural (uncustomary) relations.’ This activity is not natural to genuine homosexuals.

  • Lol obsessed? I would beg to differ! Maybe gays are obsessed with anal sex. But, is that not the only way gays have sex? It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out… Is that a tactic to stop people from asking the tuff questions or telling thr truth? Lol

  • My dear brother,
    Read my comment elsewhere in this thread and ask me for a copy of my essay. When you have read it, let us discuss what the God’s Holy Word implies about same-sex marriage.

  • It isn’t ‘tuff’ questions you need to be asking, but ‘tuff’ answers you need to listen to.

  • I said gays, not lesbians which uses a fake tool to stick in the other female.. When i say sex I mean intercourse… That is the only way gays can have sex-intercourse, am I wrong?

  • Reading through the comments is exhausting. The same tired old homophobic rants and sophistry and queer-baiting. It’s why I finally grew too tired to keep being a Christian. Got no use for Jesus or whatever it was he called “father.” The damage to the LGBT community inflicted by the church is incalculable and unforgiveable.

  • No one has answers for the tuff questions.. like, where in the bible did God define marriage as betweeb people of the same sex? If gay sex is natural and equal to heterosexual sex, why is it that All gay sex can not produce life? Please give me your tuff answers so I can listen!

  • ALL sexual activity, whether hetero- or homo- , is a choice. But sexual attraction isn’t.

    As for your point about animals, are you in the habit of trailing them all to, er, observe their sexual habits? No? Then how do you know that some are not exclusively homosexual? There are recorded instances of gay swans…and swans mate for life.

  • You’re not wrong, not that you’ve specified your terminology. A little tautological but that’s ok. I just find it interesting that the loudest voices against gays are the loudest voices telling us what gay sex is like.

  • My dear brother,
    God has brought homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships under his Moral Law, and therefore he approves or disapproves of all sexual relationships in accordance with the same standards. Read my comment elsewhere in this thread and ask me for a copy of my essay. When you have read it, let us discuss what the Bible implies about same-sex marriage.

  • Yes, all sexual actions is a choice.. sexual attraction is a choice as well, look at the men in jail! Sexual attraction is only someone you want to have sex with.. if it was not for anal sex and the dirtyness of anal sex due to what come out of it, there would be more male on male sex.. lol

    The gay swans still have sex with females, read below: An estimated one-quarter of all black swans pairings are of homosexual males. They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs

  • “And each of us is constantly searching for his other half, his other
    symbolon. The men who are half their original male-female are women-lovers, and the individual women are men-lovers, and adulterers arise from these breeds. But the women who are searching for other women, these are the hetairistriai. And those that are from the male-male pursue males, whether these are boys, or love and gratify men, lying with them and embracing them.”
    –Plato’s Symposium, quoting Aristophanes.

    For people who “did not recognize orientation,” they sure described it pretty well.

  • Most do..But, not all straight can not produce life like gay sex.. There are some straight sex that can and can not. But, all gay sex can not produce life.. Why is there not some gay sex that can produce life?

  • When did that happen? Where in the bible does it say that God says marriage is between people of the same sex? Did God dismiss the scripture thar says drunks, homlsexuals, murders, etc, will not enter heaven?

  • I never said what gay sex is like.. I only said how gays have sex due to my profession that deals with the stomach…

  • Is it becuase you said so that God approves of homosexal relationships? What evidence do you have to back up your belief? Or you hope one day God changes his mind and approves of homosexual relationship?

  • It is not that one form of sex should equal another, but how much love there is behind the sex. Outwardly, a sexual act may look good, from an erotic and physical standpoint, but it may be entirely self-indulgent and exploitative. By contrast, a fumbling, awkward and unartistic sexual act may have more love behind it than the eye can see. You are judging sexual acts by appearance alone.

    It cannot produce life because it was never intended to…like sex between a post-menopausal hetero- couple.

    Where in the Bible does God prohibit same-sex marriage?

  • Since God approves of sex on in marriage. And God says marriage is only between a man and a women, how can he approve of a homosexual relationship? Please give me a copy of your essay?

  • My dear brother,
    I could prove to you that you misinterpret what the Bible says about marriage and about homosexuals. Yes, the truth is not bigotry! Neither is a Christian’s opposition to same-sex marriage bigotry; it is only misunderstanding of God’s moral will revealed in scripture. Your heart is not hard; that is obvious. Send me a request for my essay on this subject. Read it with an open mind and you will gain a better understanding of God’s will. If you are confirmed in your current opinions, the challenges will have made them sharper and more convincing. If you are disabused of your current opinions, the angels will rejoice. Email me: [email protected]

  • As I said above, gay sex was never intended to reproduce, like sex between post- menopausal and infertile hetero- couples.

    You are fixated on the error that sex is about reproduction alone; it isn’t.

  • Lol love? There are different types of love… Please explain what you mean by love.. I love my dog, wife, brother, mom, father, and friends. Love is vague… I am not following you on the love theory!

    But, before menopause, they were able to produce life, correct? So that hetero couple before post menopause could produce life. So you analogy is incorrect becuase that couple could at one point could produce life when homosexual couples could never produce life..

  • My wife was infertile according to Doctors and we had 3 kids.. In the bible God, blessed a infertile couple to produce life.. homosexuals couoles do not even have the equipment to produce life, am I wrong? All humans are intended to produce life just not from the same sex..

  • Lol I will email you.. But, the bible says marriage is between a man and a women.. I do not see how you can misunderstand that!

  • No, just good discernment. I am under no obligation to read everything on the Internet that someone directs at me. I’m not blocking them from saying anything they like anywhere they like, I’m just ignoring them. They should try that approach.

  • I have commented elsewhere on this site about love. Do you bother to read the comments?

    Love, true love, must have at least these aspects at its core: self-sacrifice, compassion, mercy, forgiveness. These are the quintessential qualities that make up the love of God. But because we are human, we can express this love sexually, in an entirely unitive way, with whomever we truly love, regardless of whether the act is reproductive. The unitive aspect of the act, which is the primary impulse and objective of the act, stands even if there is no human issue.

  • This is what the Bible says, but this does not imply that God forbids same-sex marriage. Nothing in the Bible implies that God forbids same-sex marriage.
    I am sure you scoff at my statements. I beg you: stop scoffing just long enough to read my essay refuting all the arguments against same-sex marriage that I know of. You may get a copy of the essay by email request to me: [email protected]

  • You have a mechanical and inhuman concept of people. If males in prison become sexually attracted to one another it tends to prove, first, that fewer people than assumed are exclusively straight and, second, that these attractions are instinctive, that is, they are not chosen (your mechanical view).

    As for animals, have you followed them all around to prove bisexuality? No. You are generalising here.

    And you spoke only of black swans; there are other colours (and types) too.

  • Who are you to say if a person was turned gay he was never straight from the get go? If that person said they were straight and was turned gay, who are you to say otherwise?

    Who says gay sex is natural today? Bias doctors who are only speculating becuse they do not know?

    Who are you to say what the ancient meant? Were you there?

  • Where does Plato here recognise homosexuality as a distinct sexual orientation? What he writes does not exclude the possibility that he regarded such activity as chosen rather than instinctive.

  • If they say they are straight who are you to say otherwise? They instincts are you for self pleasure..

    As far as the animals, we really do not know why they do thay but God was not talking to them.. He was talking to humans!

  • If you do not fear that “false doctrine” will confuse you, I offer you much more than the doc did. I offer you proof, based entirely on the Bible and Protestant tradition, that God wills the Church celebrate homosexual marriages just as it celebrates heterosexual marriages. Ask by email for my essay on the subject:
    [email protected]

  • I’d say they are confused about their true sexuality.

    God wasn’t talking to anyone: the authors of Scripture are human.

  • “Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth.” Mal.2:15

  • The problem with the insanity going on today is God Never changes. His Word sates that homosexuals will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ( and 2 others) for this reason. Lev 18:22-30 explains that the land is defiled and will reject the people. God threw out the Canaanites for this very reason and told the Jews they also would be thrown out if they even allowed the practice. It is known as sin that leads to death.
    What we are doing is carving out a god that we want to worship different from the One in the Bible of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. People say things like, “If this God doesn’t let these people in to Heaven, then He’s not my God”. Everyone has this choice. It’s either Jesus, or Babylon, those are our choices. Every god we worship that is not of Scripture is from Babylon. If you have placed sodomy above God, that is an idol. Celibacy is better than hell. No one is forced to undress in front of anyone. It’s a choice, just like all sins are.
    It seems a man that is familiar with Scripture enough to write his own Bible translation would understand these things. If you are able to keep the Scriptures completely yet feel like God will forgive sodomy because you are a nice guy, you have misread something somewhere. If you willfully sin after you have repented your sins, their remains no more sacrifice for sin to rely on. Jesus will NOT be crucified again. Read the parts that speak of knocking on the door asking Jesus to open the door and He replies, I never knew you!. Didn’t we prophesy and cast out demons in your name,….I never knew you! Didn’t we eat in your presence and you preached in our streets( means took Communion and went to church)…You workers of iniquity! You will end up where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Calling yourself “Christian” and not doing what your Husband wills is called taking the Lord’s name in vain. Isa 4:1 tells us in the last days 7 women( churches) will take hold of one Man( Jesus), and eat their own bread( make up their own scripture) and wear their own garments( our righteousness is as filthy rags), yet let us be called by your name( they don’t like being called witches and Satan worshipers) so they can fit into the world. Virgins are the church that are betrothed to Jesus. A High Priest can only marry a virgin of His own country. We have been “grafted in” or “adopted” to qualify. The Whore of Babylon doesn’t have a good outcome. She fornicates with the world. If we believe God has somehow changed His mind, then He needs to apologize to Sodom. Believing in the world is double mindedness. Isn’t it weird that after 5000 years, we wised up under Obama? Thinking themselves wise, they became fools.

  • You are purposefully missing my point. The fact that there is infertility through age or whatever is proof that the fundamental point of the sexual act isn’t reproductive but unitive. ALL sex, whether hetero- or homo- , can be unitive.

  • Loving your neighbor doesn’t say anything about loving their sin. Paul told the Corinthians to throw the guy out sleeping with is step mother. Eze 33 tells us that if we don’t sound the alarm when we see sin, their blood is on our head. It is an act of love to warn your neighbor he is in danger. Calling evil, good, is sin in itself.

  • I agree, Shawnie5, that the usual revisionist arguments are fatuous misinterpretations or outright disregarding of scripture. I offer you something very different: a proof from the Bible and Protestant tradition that God wills one sexual morality for all and that God wills the Church celebrate homosexual marriages just as it celebrates heterosexual marriages. Send me a request for my essay by email: [email protected]

  • If that the case, then incest and sex with animals can be unitive as well based off your theory.. what do you mean by unitive? Please explain, I do not want to misjudge your words..

  • Re-read. He regarded the attraction to same sex or opposite sex as inborn. As did Aristotle (actually, Aristotle regarded some same sex attractions as acquired and others as inborn). As did Soranus, who was a contemporary of Paul, who claimed that such attraction was “generated in the act of conception.”

    And of course since astrology was so prevalent in the ancient world, the position of the planets at birth was often credited with whether a child “will be a Lesbian, desirous of women, and if the native is a male, he will be desirous of males” Carmen Astrologicum, 2.7.6 (this dates roughly to the mid-1st century AD).

  • Lol then you do not believe in the bible.. This conversation is over! One can not have a conversation about God if they are a non-believer
    ..

  • And who are YOU to make the preposterous claim that a straight man can be turned gay?

    Read Paul in Romans. He was an ancient and he clearly believed that same-sex relations were by choice rather than from a natural orientation. (Do you bother to read anything?)

  • Thank you, but I don’t do things that way. I only address arguments that are presented to me here, point by point. Blessings to you.

  • That’s what EM (Neil Simpson) does. Everyone in this world is sinful except for him, it seems, and he loves bragging about this whenever he gets the chance.

  • Sorry, but your posts are becoming increasingly desperate and absurd. Sex with animals cannot be unitive because the participants are not equals and animals cannot consent.

    Incestuous sex is abusive and exploitative; it cannot, therefore, be unitive. (Couldn’t you have worked this out for yourself?)

  • Oh, but but but, what if he LOVED his step-mother! Love makes it all OK, right? Right? Right?

    [sarcasm alert]

  • Animal consenting? Do we care about consenting when we cage them and keep them a pets?

    Why is incest sex abusive if two brothers or a brother and sister both consent to have sex? Lol.

  • What’s your point? Clearly, hetero- couples are addressed here. But now where are gay couples excluded.

  • Who says it is not by choice? I believe it is a choice..What evidence do you have to say it is not a choice? Scientist do not really know and they are not united on why some people choose to be gay or straight…

  • Malachi was saying (as was Jesus 400 years later) that the reason for marriage is the reuniting of the male and female elements of the God-head, separated in the act of creation, in such a way that godly offspring may be begotten and properly nurtured. If male/female reunification is the purpose of marriage, there is no purpose to any same-sex union that fits within the creation design.

  • Read Romans 1. Several sins are listed there. Verse 32 tells us if we approve of these sins, we have committed them also. If you believe you were created by God, then He owns you and can guide your path whatever He deems right. He is the Potter and you are the clay. You CANNOT tell Him what He must do or think. He has told US what He thinks, and None of it describes accepting sodomy.
    Using your logic, you could bless a marriage of several women or men, or even a goat or a sheep. God gave us His model of marriage and it was one man and one woman. Just because some men had multiple wives doesn’t make it acceptable to God. Forbidding to marry is called the “doctrine of demons” yet one of the largest denominations on the planet practices that. We are carving out our own gods in our minds that don’t resemble Jehovah. God gave us Scripture from the Holy Spirit and the Spirit is One with God. He gave us Jesus to show us an example of how to live and He is one with God. None of them accepted sodomy. Who was the Angel( capital “A”) that stayed behind with Abraham while the other 2 rescued Lot? (hint, Jesus, the same angel that was with Gideon, the same High Priest called Melchizedek.) Homosexuals WILL NOT see the Kingdom of Heaven. You “love them” anyway you want, but failure to warn them is on your head!

  • You’re a biblical literalist, aren’t you? Not everything in Scripture is divinely inspired, therefore not all of Scripture can have God as its author. Jesus proved this when he shamed a mob from stoning to death a woman caught in adultery. Leviticus commands this. So if all of Scripture is ‘spirit-breathed’, Jesus would have had to impose the penalty. He didn’t, proving my point and disproving yours.

    You are tying yourself in intellectual knots, and making fool of yourself.

  • Who says incestuous sex has to be abusive and exploitative? Much love and equality can and does exist between siblings, at least as much as with other pairings. If you reject incest on moral grounds you have to come up with something more solid than that.

  • Jacob Lupfer just posted an article a few minutes ago. I believe that makes it four for RNS so far.

  • It’s a waste of time trying to have a conversation with this guy. Lol. He argues like a high school sophomore.

  • No, you still haven’t provided unambiguous evidence that same-sex attraction was regarded by the ancients as innate rather than chosen. You have, however, stated your opinion on this, which isn’t evidence.

  • LOL! Chriz, there was SO much going on in this particular scene and you obviously have missed almost all of it! Suffice it to say that no, Jesus did not deny the justice of the penalty. At all.

  • You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. How about that? Is that plain enough? This is like someone saying you can’t eat shellfish so the whole Bible is irrelevant. The NT tells us we can eat anything as long as we bless it. The word “homosexual” used in the NT is the same as sodomite, and the same meaning gave us the word sodomy. It’s exactly what it looks like it means. This argument that the word “homosexuality was coined to describe a mental illness in recent history is meaningless. Another popular teaching straight from Hell is Sodom was destroyed because they didn’t treat the visiting angels with respect required back then. God sent them to destroy Sodom because what they were doing had gone up to God and He wanted to “fix” it.

  • You’re wrong. We don’t know why animals exhibit those behaviors. But seriously, do you want to use animal behavior as a justification for your behavior?

  • “Generated in the act of conception.” Come on, muster up those reading comprehension skills! What does that phrase say?

    The point is that all of this nonsense about the ancients “not knowing anything about sexual orientation” is just that, nonsense. Activists claim it to bolster their case for ssm affirmation, and most people, like you, are unfamiliar with ancient writings so they have no way of knowing that it’s a completely false claim. All sorts of ancient writings attest that the ancients knew perfectly well that some people are born desiring the same sex. Sex is one area where the truly is “nothing new under the sun.”

  • Nobody, except that it demonstrates that the ancients understood sexual “orientation” perfectly well, contrary to revisionist mythology.

  • Thinking themselves wise they became fools. The Bible says its a sin. It says they won’t go to Heaven. It tells us to warn the sinners of their sin. You aren’t arguing with people on the internet, you are arguing with God. After 5000 years of forbidding sodomy, you somehow think God made a mistake, or He changed His mind, or we can’t read, or the translation is buggered up, or some other bilge. If you really believe what you are saying, you most likely have a demon that needs to be cast out. You have scales over your eyes and you are Spiritually blind.

  • Check out my exchange below with Chrizmart. I show him a passage from Plato saying that same-sex attraction is inborn (which of course disproves revisionist mythology that the ancients did not understand orientation) and he tells me I haven’t shown that Plato regarded same-sex-attraction as inborn. Either the schools are doing a worse job with reading comprehension than I thought or willful blindness of (dare we say) biblical proportions is going on here.

  • So-called ‘homosexual behaviors’ here do not necessarily suggest that these people accepted the existence of homosexuality as an orientation. (You need to try harder.)

  • Didn’t know you were God?

    People can and have misunderstood Scripture. Which is why Jesus got so cross with the religious experts of his time (people like you).

  • They were PAGANS! They understood nothing about the God of the Bible. Quote a Rabbi from that era and we’ll talk. This isn’t a democratic vote on some consensus. If you are telling me “the ancients” practiced sodomy, well yes they did. They also lied, committed murder, stole merchandise, and worshiped carved tree limbs. Some “temples” used prostitutes to “worship” with their believers and the believers gave them money. All that proves nothing except you seem to want to drag the church towards paganism.
    Just as a reminder of the agreement Christians make when they are Baptized,….You agree to DIE to your flesh, and be Raised as a new creature, born of the Spirit and not of the flesh. If you want to argue with God and stay in your rebellion, then I have to question if you left the old man back under water. The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible. Is what you are hearing in your head written on any page in the Bible? You are NOT hearing from the Holy Spirit. Trying to bargain with God has never been a wise endeavor. He holds ALL the cards and you will suffer loss no matter how wise you think you are. How on earth did Aristotle and Plato ever get in a Bible discussion about sodomites?

  • We don’t need to know why they exhibit those behaviours. The fact they do is proof that it IS part of nature. Same applies to humans, whether you like it or not.

  • Save your breath. You’ve missed the point of the exchange. Revisionists argue Paul’s writings may be disregarded because the ancients had no concept of sexual orientation. Ancient writers demonstrate that they did. Revisionists’ case fails.

  • I did not miss what is of fundamental importance here: that no human being may put another to death unless he or she is morally pure.

    Jesus’ words are a timeless and universal condemnation of capital punishment. What amazes me is that professed ‘Christians’ just don’t (or wilfully won’t) get this. But then, the ‘religious’ people of Jesus’ time didn’t get it either. Moral: religion is BAD for the soul; it keeps one from God.

  • Actually the passage from Matthew refers to treating a wife well. Although she is considered property in a legal and societal sense, Jesus was saying that husbands should not really consider them so. You have to stretch things to turn it into a prohibition of marriage equality. You chose that wild and totally ambiguous and self serving interpretation to fit your prejudice.

    At no point is homosexuality even addressed. The concept was unknown to biblical writers. It is a modern conception.

  • Explain what I’ve “misunderstood”. Pharisees failed to understand Spiritual things. I have the Holy Spirit living in me. He explains things like, Homosexual means sodomy. Don’t do it means “don’t do it”. Homosexuals will not see the Kingdom of Heaven means they ain’t going. Now you are calling me a Pharisee because I don’t follow Plato and don’t believe someone that hates God because a homosexual he knows will end up in hell and he wants to encourage him to avoid Christians.
    All this stuff is simple. Jesus said if you love Me you will do as I command. The first thing He hears from you and others here on this thread is, “Why”, “I don’t want to”, “You are wrong”, “I know more than God”, “The Bible is a lie”, “Men wrote the Bible”, and on and on. I’ve heard this all my life and I’m sure Paul, and Peter listened to the same stuff. If you are in rebellion to God, that’s fine, but don’t call yourself Christian. Don’t act like somehow you have some special information deposited with you that no one else has. If you’ve ever read the Bible, then you’ve heard of the phrases “Milk and Meat”. God hates sodomy is Milk. Even a child can understand that. Acting like you have some secret knowledge and we are all duped is prideful. I’m sure you could come up with some justification for a man stealing a car because he’s hungry and “the man” has held him down all his life. The Bible calls that stealing. Milk again.

  • If the Law were applied perfectly to all of us, in thought as well as deed, it would condemn us all to death. That was why Jesus’ mission was necessary. And it is why we show the same kind of mercy to others that was shown to us.

    But you evidently have no idea what was actually going on here. The lawyers here were trying to trick Jesus into self-incrimination, just like they were in the Caesar’s coin incident. If He said to stone her, He would be inviting trouble from the Romans who had removed from the Jews the power to independently execute. If He said to NOT stone her, He would be contradicting the law of Moses. So what He did, in His usual brilliant fashion, was to turn their evil intentions back on them by telling them to go ahead with the stoning but to let it be started by the witnesses who were making the accusation, as required by Jewish law, with pure motives and free of any taint of guilt or misconduct in the matter. Which convicted every last one of them (notice how they had failed to bring forward the man she had allegedly committed adultery with, also in violation of Jewish law).

  • OK. Killing one’s offspring, then. Any cop will tell you this phenomenon exists, and is unfortunately quite common — the parents, in fact, are always the first suspects.

  • What’s to interpret? He says directly that God made them one because He desires godly offspring. What is hard about that?

    You’ve got some serious denial issues, friend.

  • That is because you are being silly. When the question is, “Do I get to treat a class of people like crap?”

    There is no debate or tolerance of an opposing view. The answer to any moral person is “NO”.

    Bigots look for “Yes, but I have an excuse”

    Sorry but the whole, “you can’t tolerate my intolerance of others” is BS. You want to hate a group of people with impunity, go eff yourself. You are a terrible person.

  • An orientation is something man made up.. There is no such things as an orientation.. It is only bahaviors… lol

  • I would like to know the research you have studied to even conclude there is such a thing as an “orientation”, and in your words, something in-born and unchangeable?
    I’d have to say scientific data says otherwise, and homosexual “orientation” is a product of social, environmental stimuli, not genetic. For instance, why is it that in twin studies, when one identical twin identifies as homosexual (remember that identical twins share 100% DNA), that only around 30% or less of the time the other holds this same position? This alone demolishes the idea of a pure genetic causality for homosexuality. Thus, it is a learned behavior due to certain introduced prenatal chemicals (or the existence of some genes, but these alone do not determine “orientation”), along with social and environmental reinforcement

    So, with this information in mind, I think you could reasonably see why no homosexual “orientation” is discussed in the Scriptures; it simply does not exist.

  • Yes, if you beleive in SSM, you can not believe in the bible.. How can you when God described marriage?

  • Ok, we dont stone women to death for adultry.. But, do you have a scripture where God shamed someone for believing that gay behavior is wrong? Or can you point to a scripture where God praised homosexual behavior?

    Becuase God shamed a mob for stoning a women for adultry, does that mean he condones homosexual behavior? You can not change minds about homosexual behavior by pointing out other things in the bible.. Can you point to a scripture that condones homosexual behavior? Can we please stick to scriptures that deals with homosexual behaviort? And how does God shaming a mob for stoning a women for adultry have anything to do with homosexual behavior? According to your logic, we should not say anything is against God since you want to equate God shaming a mob for stoning a women for adultry to homosexual behavior… lol

  • There is a reason why Paul said that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of heaven. The reason is not that homosexual conduct as such is sinful. God’s Moral Law for sexual conduct is the same for all. The Moral Law makes no distinction between male and female, no distinction between techniques for satisfying sexual desire, no distinction between heterosexual desire and homosexual desire. The applicable rules and principles of sexual morality are the same for all these. God does not forbid the Church’s celebration of homosexual marriages on the same terms and conditions as it celebrates heterosexual marriages. If you have an open mind, I will prove to you what I have just stated, on the basis of Scripture and Protestant tradition, with none of the fatuous arguments that revisionists usually proffer. Ask me for a copy of my essay on the subject by sending me email: [email protected]

  • You are crippling your study of God’s will. Many questions about correct interpretation of scripture are much too difficult for discussion in the format provided here, point by point. Points hang together by a heuristic technique, gaining or losing plausibility by greater or lesser coherence. (Interpret scripture by scripture!) This forum will not — cannot — test interpretation of any scripture except maybe a few verses in one context. Verily, this forum will not test interpretation of scripture revealing God’s will for sexual conduct and marriage.
    I pray you will be freed of this bondage and then better able to learn God’s will.

  • I raised the question about the tone of your previous comment. If you want book titles, I’ll supply them, but I’m not going to take the time to lay out a case for you that takes more than a few sentences.

  • Oh I am aware of it. Quakers in the US and some other denomnations in the North. However some including the Baptists split over it. Many Southern preachers had been defending slavery with the Bible since the Revolution. Today many still use it to support white supremacy. I am a Christian and do not lump all together, however, Dominionist fundamentalists (Evangelicals??) like Franklin Graham use the Bible in twisted ways to avoid dealing with life the way Jesus did. Wilberforce was a Brit of course…. anything he said was suspect in the US. 🙂

  • But you cannot define them as homosexual behaviors. They may have nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the animal. Animal scientists don’t no why they do it.

  • And many had been condemning slavery too. How did the early church fathers address slavery. Better yet what does the NT say about it?
    Can you prove that FG is a dominionist? What has FG said/written that leads you to you slam against him?

  • Men having sex with men is nothing new! Homosexuality refers to the action of men having sex with men, correct? But, heterosexuality and homosexuality is not metioned in the bible. So does that mean the bible does not apply to heterosexuals unions?

    These words are terms we used to describe actions and behaviors.. Did you know that until the 1900s the word gay meant happy.. So lets not focus on the word itself but the meaning of the word. Although the word homosexuals is not in the bible, the actions of homosexuals are in the bible.

    Why do you keep pointing to other things in the bible besides homosexual behavior?

    Ok, society is wrong for thinking women are property while God said otherwise. So you think that society should think gay behavior is not a sin and marriage is between the same sex when God says it is a sin and marriage is between a man and a women? Two wrongs does not make it right..

  • Where might I begin to list your misunderstandings? You have so many. And I haven’t the time.

  • No, it isn’t nonsense, objectively speaking. That is simply your opinion, which, of course, isn’t evidence of anything (except a certain, personal preference). Teacher’s comment: must do better.

  • Animals aren’t automatons : they experience same-sex attraction. Which is why they engage in it. (Duh!)

  • Sorry, I’ll stick with God’s Word instead of an essay you wrote. I have an open mind about misunderstanding God’s Word, but the evidence against sodomy is overwhelming. For over 5000 years every scholar agrees with me and today, somehow a new understanding has infiltrated the church? This is the tickled ears spoken of in the Last Days. Everyone knows a homosexual or is one today. I’m sure we love these people and desire them to go to heaven, but lying to them doesn’t help. Just like me, they MUST repent and turn from their evil ways. God has spoken plainly and you don’t need a decoder ring to understand. I know there are scriptures that speak in Spiritual terms that need the Holy Spirit to understand, but this is not one of them. Unnamed women are churches or denominations, trees are men, water is words, either Satan as a flood, or God as a river, spring, or fountain, locusts, unnamed birds, wolves are demons, seeds are the Word of God, the field is the Earth, the Bible is full of spiritual language that only someone with the Holy Spirit can read and understand the Spiritual meaning. Sodomy is not a mystery. Adultery and fornication in Spiritual terms means you are messing with other gods, but sodomy is an abomination. Sexual sin is a sin against your own flesh. Your body is the Temple of God if you are saved. God CANNOT live in a dirty house. If you have sex with someone not your spouse, He cannot stay. You cannot have a spouse of the same sex.

  • You’re the one who went down this road about if something exists it must be natural. So you answer your own question.

  • The ancient writings exist. They describe innate sexual orientation. It’s not my opinion, and I certainly have no preference here. It would be perfectly fine by me if the revisionists were right about it all. However, they aren’t.

    Funny that you complain about opinion when you have done little else on this thread EXCEPT give your opinion.

  • No, the Law cannot condemn anyone to death. Why? Because we are born with certain moral proclivities for which we are not responsible and over which we do not have absolute dominion. To condemn anyone under this circumstance would be as unjust as condemning a paraplegic for not being able to walk. God is neither unreasonable nor unjust (unlike some of the posters here).

    Stop putting uncritical faith in Paul.

  • You don’t know what you’re talking about. Animal scientists don’t know why animals express behaviors we’d say were sexual in nature.

  • Ever read the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus’ famous exposition of the true intent of the law of Moses? He said it has to be kept perfectly in order to reach God on our own merits. If we break it even once, in thought or deed, we’re lost (hence, remove a limb if necessary!). He tells us we have to be “perfect, even as our Father in heaven is perfect.”

    Sounds like… we’re responsible.

    However, if this standard seems a little onerous, there is a Plan B. But to take it, we have to acknowledge sin and repent of it. Sounds like we’re… still responsible.

  • Yes, the ancient writings exist, and so, too, do your interpretations of them. How, then, to separate the ‘wheat from the chaff’?

  • There are plenty of Christian theologians who can explain to you that homosexuality isn’t really referenced in the Bible as sin. Some specific behaviors are. But then again, so is eating pork. What matters is understanding. When Paul was dealing with believers who couldn’t let go of the rules they had grown up with, he cautioned others to not make it too hard on them.

    Also, the Bible is actually specific about the nature of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, and it wasn’t homosexuality. (Ezekiel 16:49-50)

    I will say it again. You have no place standing between God and myself, or between God and anyone else. Get out of the way. Stop trying to rule.

    And before a misunderstanding happens, I am Christian and very heterosexual. I just try to treat everyone with love.

  • Well, I guess it’s as easy to interpret a description of a female being born “desirous of women” and a male being born “desirous of men” as NOT describing inborn sexual orientation as it is to interpret “do not lie with a man as with a woman” as “Do not lie with a man as with a woman, unless you really really wanna.”

    In that case, however, I’d be curious as to how you WOULD describe sexual orientation.

  • Oh, my freakin’ maiden aunt! Shawnie girl, I luv ya, as much for your endearing naivety as anything else.

    Were we able to exercise the moral self-control you suggest, then Jesus needn’t have become incarnate, much less died that horrific death.

  • For one thing, you’re classifying something as sin that really isn’t listed as a sin in the Bible. Yes, let that sink in. Homosexuality itself is not listed as a sin. Several behaviors are. And very prominently, acting against one’s sexual orientation is listed, as well. That passage is often interpreted as being against homosexuality, but somewhat is lost in the translation from the original Greek.

    But even if it was, nobody has the authority to stand between God and myself. That includes Paul. And Peter. And the Pope. And everybody else. Unless I put them there, they have no business being there. I’m happy to talk with them about how they see things and what they believe. Sure. But they are or were human, just like me. So, that means they can’t judge me, command me, etc. Personal responsibility is personal responsibility. God certainly wouldn’t blame one person for the choices made by another. That’s ludicrous. When you see stuff like that written, you can see the humanity just shining through. Humans get scared, and in their fear, one of the things they do is externalize.

    Love is love. Sitting in judgment of your neighbor because your neighbor believes somewhat different from you isn’t love. Not by a long shot. You certainly wouldn’t recognize it as love if that kind of treatment was leveled at you. And that’s why it’s so powerful to call people to treat others as we would wish to be treated. We have to put aside that fear. We have to accept that we don’t stand between God and our neighbor. They will work things out just fine.

    You want to show them love? Support them when you find out that a local business refuses to serve them. Support them when you find out that they aren’t allowed to adopt children. Support them. Help make their lives better. If your “love” involves judgment, then I’m not sure it qualifies.

  • That is based off of straight men who were turned gay… All you have to do is search straight men who turned gay on the internet! Who says that what Paul says is not true? There is no concrete evidence to say otberwise

  • Your assumption is yours, and not mine. Love means love. It doesn’t mean “judge.” It doesn’t mean “attempt to enforce your beliefs.”

    There are plenty of Christians out there that do not believe that homosexuality or same-sex marriage is a sin. More and more all the time. I see it as akin to the way not all the early Christians would eat pork. It can take time to move forward. There was a time when most Christians defended horrible social conventions with scripture, including second class treatment for women and slavery. They justified it with scripture. Most no longer do that.

    I don’t see it as reasonable at all that God would have any objection to homosexuality. Sexual orientation isn’t voluntary. It isn’t a choice. And it has no moral value. It is not evil to be heterosexual or homosexual. Sexual intimacy is something entirely within the human sphere, so again, it makes no sense that God would object to it. The important aspects of it – love, respect, and all the interpersonal interaction… easily covered by the command to love. And marriage? A human relationship. If we comport ourselves with love, then the command is met.

    What is it going to take to wake up most Christians and get them to stop trying to stand between God and their neighbor?

  • I am bisexual, mostly gay. And I fought so very hard to change this, but I couldn’t .

    People like you (ignoramuses) make me feel angry, and physically sick. But I am commanded by Christ to love such.

  • I wouldn’t be too confident declaring who will see the Kingdom.

    As far as Romans 1 (and every other “bashing” scripture out there), there are Christian denominations that will explain to you in great detail why their exegesis of scripture has brought them to a different understanding than yours. Far too much information for this forum, but suffice it to say, your interpretation is certainly not the only one.

    Christians today seem to think it is entirely appropriate to stand between God and another person. As if that were a value-add to that relationship. Get out of the way. I didn’t ask you to get in the way. I didn’t grant you any authority in my relationship with God, and I’m pretty certain that all those homosexual Christians didn’t, either.

    Work out your own salvation. And trust God and your neighbor to work things out.

  • He supports Pence and Trump in their authoritarian politics. And argues to create a legal Christian Taliban/Pharisees. That’s all the proof needed

  • God bless you, Ben. No vicious spirit here… Only a desire to give some objective perspective. You, like everyone else, are welcome in the family of Christ as you lay down your self, pick up your cross daily and follow Jesus. C’mon friend! Following Jesus is better than being hostage to the curse… :o)

  • I wish i could respect him as I once did. He soul his convictions in the marketplace for money and I never thought he would do that. I do not feel deflated I feel once again I have witness the hypocrisy of a CHRISTIAN.

  • Wow! You still talkin’ t’ me, in spite of what you said (what?) four hours ago now? You don’t know your own mind, do you? Unless…you’re a closeted queer and head-over-heels in love with me.?

  • Lol I figured if God talked to the non-belivers so should I. How else would one get the non-believers to become belivers?

  • Cool, but; maybe you can work on knowing God better.. He can save all from sinful behavior…

  • Nah! You’re attracted to me, in spite of what you say. But, because you’re married, I am not going to answer any more of you posts. Ciao!

  • Lol I am assuming you mean the people who say they were straight then turned gay… If they said they were straight then turned gay, who are you or I to say they are lying?

    Don’t get mad at me because people say they were straight, then turned gay.. But, I know it hurts becuase it takes the power out of your theory that people are born gay…

  • Sexual orientation is far more than an act of sexual congress. It is attractions and feelings. The whole notion of orientation eluded biblical writers and apparently yourself. I am heterosexual but I have no desire for homosexual acts because simply I am not attracted to it. Not wired for such feelings. If you are straight, you have the same makeup, regardless of what any outside source would say.

    You want to deny identity to homosexuals because you want to justify treating them as less then people. You want to use religion as a cover and socially acceptable gloss to your malice. You want to claim god supports you because you are too spineless to own up to personal prejudices. You seek to use religion to hate thy neighbor

    That is why you proceed with the untruth of sexual orientation as a choice and sin. That is why you are a terrible and immoral person for it. .

  • Lol! ? yeah brah…let’s go chug some barley pops, do bible study, and then go out and kill some big game. Then we’ll come back, arm wrestle and watch some ufc or football. Oorah! ?

  • Your assumption is that “love” includes abuse, ostracism, discrimination, assault and murder of people you consider sinners.

    You can cut the BS that your attitudes towards gays represents a well intentioned concern for their souls and an admonishment of their sins in a beneficial manner.

    You are looking for religion to excuse malicious attitudes towards others. Conservative Christians have simply found an outlet for bigotry that was cut off when racism became embarrassing in public.

  • That is you! But, there are others who say they were straight them turned gay.

    Just because one does not believe that you are born gay or straight that is an excuse to treat people with gay behavior less as human! How is that? I am not killing people who commit gay behavior. I would not offer to feed or cloth someone who commits gay behavior. But, I will not say or believe that gay behavior is of God or people can not change their sexual behavior. But, as gay supporters always say, if you do not accept my gay behavior you hate me and treat me as less than human which is not true..

    Gay advocates only want confirmation from society that gay behavior is of God and ok. No one treats gays less than human.. If so, please give an example?

  • Bisexuals are not evidence of choice. They are evidence that some people are attracted to both genders. Not q choice.

  • I am attracted to someone I am having a discussion with over the internet.. Thats a stretch! I never said I was technically married. I only said my wife had kids when she was deemed infertile by the doctors… My wife is not here anymore. Now, I see how you can misunderstand the bible!!

  • Quakers and other Anabaptist sects also oppose entanglement of church and state. Conservative Christians don’t draw upon the legacy of the Quakers but of their Christian Bible thumping opponents. Politically they even came from the pro segregation movement.

  • So you are calling discrimination, ostracism, defamation, assault and murder as “acts of love”?

    Yes calling evil good is a bad thing. You are quite the sinner in your own words and definitions.

  • I beg to differ! But, Straight men who are serving a life sentence in jail choose to engage in homosexual behavior… So it is a choice. Some of these men never considered or thought about being attracted to the same sex but they choose to be attracted to the same sex due to their life sentences. So people can choose to become attracted to the same sex if they choose to..

  • Yeah, then they disavow such things when out of sight of bigoted peers. Like every ex gay minister. It’s not a matter of belief. It is a matter of malicious untruth for an agenda.

    The only people who hold to such views are the the bigots who are looking to deny the identity of gays and attack them.

    You are looking for excuses to treat others badly. That makes you a terrible and immoral person. You may think God is on your side. I think you are just a spineless dishonest hater.

  • So are you saying that people can never commit an action that they know is wrong? If you know what you did is a sin and against God, how is the bigoted? God said repent and all sins will be forgiven. But, if they think what they did is of God, then they will never be able to repent and God will not forgive

    Do pasters not steal, lie, etc? Pastors are human and they are only there to spread God’s word becuase no one is without sin..

    Outside of accepting gay behavior, how are people who engage in gay behavior treated badly? Why would God not be on the side of the person who is upholding what he says in the bible about gay behavior? That makes no sense to say that God is not on the side of the person who upholds his word! Have you read the bible? Do you think religious folks are making this up?

  • That”s sort of the point. Nobody has met that standard, so Plan B was provided. But it wasn’t provided for those who are just fine the way they are, thank you. It was provided for those who know they are hopeless and need mercy.

  • Twenty-five years ago I fell deeply in love with an unscripturally divorced man. I had no choice in this feeling. I could not change it. I had no expectation that I would ever feel differently. And I was angry about my predicament, yes. It seemed unfair. It still seems unfair. But all I could do was walk away from it. In hindsight, praise God that I did.

  • Yes, you fell in love with someone already ‘hitched’. I did not.

    You are not comparing like with like.

  • C’mon. You cannot say “Well, we see animals engaging in behaviors that look like sex; therefore, human same sex sexual activity is normal. There is not a one to one correspondence. Your premise is faulty.

  • Well said. I pray the Lord will put that on the hearts of His followers who He’s given the Gift of Mercy and the Gift of Discernment. I keep praying God will put that on the heart of someone who my loved-one can respect, to speak to him to turn him back to the Lord.

  • “God has spoken plainly and you don’t need a decoder ring to understand. I know there are scriptures that speak in Spiritual terms that need the Holy Spirit to understand, but this is not one of them. Unnamed women are churches or denominations, trees are men, water is words, either Satan as a flood, or God as a river, spring, or fountain, locusts, unnamed birds, wolves are demons, seeds are the Word of God, the field is the Earth, the Bible is full of spiritual language that only someone with the Holy Spirit can read and understand the Spiritual meaning.”
    You will not find in my essay a decoder ring or any attempt to make the scriptures’ condemnations of homosexual acts into symbols of something else. Yes, the revisionists have very implausible interpretations of the seven proof texts. But you should not assume that my essay takes that kind of line, because your assumption would be false. No one who has read my essay has found any of the fatuity that you find in the revisionists’ writings.
    Rather than prejudice, have curiosity. By reading my essay, you only gain. If you reject my arguments, your own understanding of God’s will has become sharper and firmer because of the challenges. If you are convinced by my arguments, you and the angels will rejoice.
    Ask me for a copy of my essay by email: [email protected]

  • We don’t know why animals behave like they do. For eg. Dominant cows will often mount cows that are less dominant. They aren’t portraying lesbian behaviors. It’s not about sex; it’s about who the dominant cow is.

  • Here is the preface of my essay, for the little that it may be worth to you:

    I am a conservative evangelical Christian disturbed because my fellows have misinterpreted the Bible with bad consequences. Conservative Christians have misinterpreted the Bible’s instructions for sexual conduct and so have been preachers and practicers of immorality. I grieve for this misinterpretation because it has caused harm to homosexual Christians, who are denied ministries of the Church. I grieve for it because it has caused harm to conservative Christians, who are wasting time, treasure, and talent in efforts to protect these unjustifiable practices of the Church. Most of all, I grieve for it because it displeases God, who would have his moral will understood and honored. I write this essay to state and defend a better interpretation.
    Here, in a nutshell, is my thesis. God’s will for human sexual conduct is fully expressed in the Seventh Commandment. So, there is one sexual morality for all. Specifically, there is one sexual morality for heterosexuals and homosexuals, and its most general principle is that full expression of sexual desire is permitted only within marriage. God has provided the institution of marriage for all who need to express their sexual desires fully, and God wills that they all avail themselves of marriage. Therefore, it is God’s will that homosexual persons, not only heterosexual persons, marry if they do not have the gift of sexual continency. The Church should implement God’s will by treating homosexual marriage just as it treats heterosexual marriage.
    My interpretation of the Bible contradicts the interpretation of almost all conservative Christians. My interpretation strikes many of them as preposterous, even shockingly so. I think it would require person-to-person dialogue for this impression to be allayed. What follows is my own side of an ideal conversation, as responsive to thoughtful, skeptical, open-minded conservatives as I can make it. In defending my interpretation, I do not insist that any words of Scripture have crabbed or otherwise implausible meanings, I do not make assertions about people’s pains and pleasures and then run accounts as if God’s morality were utilitarian, and I do not make appeals to anything like a vague law of love that is supposed to supersede moral rules and principles and make any conduct right if the actor wants very much to express a tender sentiment. I do not offer any of these fatuous lines of argument favored by revisionists; my fellow conservative evangelicals view these lines of argument with disdain, and I agree with them. Instead, I defend my interpretation of the Bible in ways that are quite consistent with standard methods. I expect reading through this essay will make my understanding of God’s will seem tenable. Moreover, because I expose and correct all the confusions and fallacies that underlie my fellow conservatives’ interpretation of the Bible, I dare hope even to convince some of them that the Church should offer marriage to both homosexual and heterosexual Christians on exactly the same terms.

  • Well you can call God those names if you want to. Won’t change the reality of what the bible says.

  • I exegete the Romans verses on pages 33 through 35 of my essay, though the exegesis is best understood in context by reading pages 32 through 36.
    There is no giving “one small example” of my exegesis of so thoroughly misunderstood a set of verses. If your attention span is large enough, get a copy of my essay and read the pages I have identified. I dare say, my exegesis of the Romans verses will whet your appetite for my full treatment of our subject (and your appetite will be satisfied eventually, no matter how small your bites).
    Send your request for a copy of my essay be email: [email protected]

  • For modern American evangelicals who regard homosexuality as Sin Number One, C.S. Lewis has a prescient question: “What Christian, in a society so worldly and cruel, would pick out the carnal sins for special reprobation? Cruelty is surely more evil than lust, and the World at least as dangerous as the Flesh.” (Surprised by Joy)

  • It would have been an unscriptural choice to pursue it. So would be a choice to pursue a homosexual relationship. “Love” would not make either choice a right one.

  • Sounds like Richard has made a great offer there if you are genuinely interested in hearing other understandings. Again, if you are genuine (not just looking to prove yourself right) feel free to contact me by email and I would be happy to share some of the writings that I have come across.

  • Animals don’t have the cerebral capacity to experience “attraction” as we understand it. They are mostly enslaved to hormonal urges. If hormone levels fluctuate then all kinds of odd behaviors may manifest.

  • Thanks but just reading his introduction showed me that he was writing from a faulty premise.

  • No; Of what people like YOU understand what the Bible says. World of difference there.?

  • Leviticus 18:22Modern English Version (MEV)

    22 You shall not lie with a man as one does with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Even you can see what is says that is if you can read.

  • Actually I know about this stuff b/c I have a degree in animal science. Of which you are clearly ignorant. LOL.

  • I am saying that people get pressured into deceiving themselves and others .
    “If you know what you did is a sin and against God, how is the bigoted? ”

    Your opinion is now God’s word. How very convenient and egomaniacal. Its a sin because you choose to interpret it as such. Your notion of sin is worthless and self-serving. Demanding people adhere to your arbitrary interpretation of scripture is not acting morally. It is just following along. It is bigoted because you choose to declare an entire class of people as unworthy of consideration as human beings. Wrapping up your prejudices in BS about it being god’s word only means you are spineless in your beliefs and looking to blame scripture and belief for your own failings.

    You are clearly someone lacking in moral fiber or understanding. Evidently you do not make judgments or decisions beyond, “can I interpret the text to claim it is OK?” Moral judgments and decisions involve weighing your actions against how they impact on others.

    BTW it is not “accepting gay behavior”. It is treating gay people like human beings. Your desire to cloak your bigotry in more glowing terms is immoral and repugnant.

    “Do you think religious folks are making this up?”

    Yup! For self-serving purposes, mostly. Yours being an ability to act like a malicious SOB to others and expect some kind of socially acceptable excuse for it.

  • But, dumbo, you just said (and I quote) ‘We don’t know why animals behave like they do…’ Actually, di*khead, it should have read, grammatically, ‘why animals behave AS they do…’

  • You f**k*n’ morons have the moral and intellectual temerity to tell queers like me how to live.

    F**k o**! The lot of you.

  • What does the bibe say about gay behavior? I am not demanding anything. I am just telling the truth. Demanding would be to outlaw homosexuality. You are only calling it bigotry because I the bible does not agree with you.. There is no such thing as shaming people to accept behavior that goes against God. But, you have failed to give an example as to how peope who do not accept behavior that goes against God is bigotery? I would say people who have sex with the same gender is bigoted becuase they are intollerant of those who hold different views.

    However, If people only see it as a behavior, how are they deceiving themselves? Religious people see it as a behavior that goes against God. There is no such thing as gay or straight. It is only people who engage in sexual behavior with the opposite sex or same sex because the bible does say anything about straight or gay! The problem is that the left has put a label on the action to give people the impression that you are born gay or straight..

    Read the bible and you will see that it is in the bible but I bet you do not want to know the truth becuase you will hate any behavior that is if God and sexual intercourse with the same sex is not one of them! Sorry but we did not write the bible!

  • I SERIOUSLY give up. I will NOT be a Christian any more. Thank you to those who have turned me away from it. You should be proud.

  • Please don’t give up on Christ. On religion? If you wish. But not on Christ.

    Most of those who comment here claiming to be Christian are impostors, wolves in sheeps’ clothing.

    IGNORE THEM.

  • Animals don’t consent to getting shot and killed by humans either so there goes your logic.

  • “What does the bibe say about gay behavior?”

    Whatever you want it to say

    “I am not demanding anything. “

    Of course you are. You are demanding to have your opinion accepted as fact unconditionally

    ” I am just telling the truth”

    You haven’t done so yet.

    “Demanding would be to outlaw homosexuality. “

    Which is your goal.

    “There is no such thing as shaming people to accept behavior that goes against God.”

    Quite untrue. It shows a disregard for the lives of others and a sociopathic lack of respect for personal boundaries. Plus it shows that egomaniacal streak that your opinion is somehow God’s will.

    “Sorry but we did not write the bible!”

    Its not the Bible which makes you act like a bigot. But it certainly gives you plenty of excuses to be one.

  • Oh good grief.

    If you really have LGBT friends, as opposed to acquaintances, you wouldn’t be a condescending bigot.
    .

  • You’d be surprised. I have a lot of LGBT friends. Even 30-35 that I know personally (ie. I can honestly call them friends) who have been redeemed from a sexually broken lifestyle; 3/4 of them now very happily married to someone of the opposite sex. Jesus’ power to redeem is that real, and that complete, GP.

  • “While he said a same-sex couple would be welcome in his church today, he would not perform a same-sex wedding “out of respect to the congregation, the larger church body, and the historic biblical Christian view and teaching.” I wonder if he would, as an obedient disciple, have said “Jesus, out of respect for the respect….historic biblical view and teaching, we need to let them stone this woman”?

  • Does your church have a pit for stoning? Does your church countenance divorce and remarried couples? Does your church allow bankers and “fast cash” owners to be members? Does your church allow people that wear blended material`? Do Women still “absolutely” wear head coverings in church? the list can go on. Do not go down the road you Do Not believe the Bible. That is a slippery slope that perhaps shows an idolatry to a book as opposed to the Savior that is born in and through that book. And you cannot go the road that Christ undid my need to adhere to OT rules because the Bible declares that Christ said “NOT ONE IOTA, NOT ONE TITTLE” will pass away.

  • Homosexuals HAVE SEEN the Kingdom of Heaven when they hear the Word that indeed they are sinful (but not their orientation) and that out of GRACE ALONE they are received by a God who Loves them IN CHRIST. Apparently Chucles though you WILL NOT see the Kingdom of Heaven. I have a sense that you are not Trinitarian. I also have a sense that you don’t realize in Hebrew there is not lower case and capital letters, nor were they used in Greek in ancient times as we use them today.

  • “What Peterson believes about this topic matters” …with ALL due respect…no It doesn’t. What God believes about this subject, matters, and if anyone (including LBGTQ folks) look to any world leader for affirmation, acceptance, or salvation then they really need a deeper, more meaningful, walk with the Lord. That is attained through study of God’s word and prayer. Christians are being maligned and assaulted by “relativist” who want us to renounce God’s truth’s, and if we don’t we are labeled, in worst case scenarios as bigots, homophobes, and unchristianly. In best case scenarios as being judgmental.
    I can disagree with your sin, as you can disagree with mine, but still love each other. We don’t have to abandon God’s truths…He has them there because He loves us and wants to protect us. Bottom Line is we are all broken people in need of God’s salvation, grace, and love, but don’t reject the Word of God just because it doesn’t fit into your world view or lifestyle. Sometime’s “no” is the most loving thing you can say to someone.

  • And many of the strongest advocates for inclusion of LGBTQ are COMMITTED Christians who base our understanding based Biblical beliefs. I hope you and everyone on here who is going “I hope they come back to the Lord, I hope they believe the Bible, I hope they understand sin” understand that Abolitionists were a minority voice back in their day. For many Christians “NORTH AND SOUTH” the Bible was very clear, absolutely clear. Slavery was an expected state for some and was not to be meddled with legally. Their “loving” statement to slaves was to accept their lot as God given state of being and perhaps you will have a loving master.

  • “Those of us who follow these kinds of conversations and care about what a leader like Peterson thinks must now sort out what this means for this debate, if anything. All I know is that Eugene Peterson is a man of deep faith who has lived, in his words, “a long obedience in the same direction.” His life and ministry bear witness to his love for God, love for people, and his love for the Bible. Peterson’s views on same-sex marriage — whether he supports it or opposes it — have no bearing on my respect for him or his ministry.

    I have nothing negative to say about Peterson today, and I wish many of the outraged conservative Christians had taken a similar posture yesterday.”

    I will be preaching on the parable of the sower tomorrow. I may quote you, Mr. Merritt…because This speaks volumes as to our view of things is that we as humans can gauge faith. I would see this as a moment in Peterson’s life that the birds came along and snatched away the seed, or even the devil (sun) scorched the shallow roots of his faith. But that, as it should not have been yours either, is not my job to judge him. We can fully judge Peter for being “snatched” away when he denied Christ…in the end it was not Peter’s ability to believe but the mercy God showed him in Christ even in the face of his denial and unbelief.

  • It’s not what you believe that’s the problem. It’s what you– a generic you, not you personally– do with it. When you use your bible as a weapon against other people to harm them, deny them participation in society, denigrate them– then what you do with your beliefs is a very big problem indeed.

    Want to believe homosexuality is a sin? have at it. express your disapproval by making gay people criminals, and you can expect a fight.

    Don’t believe god’s plan for marriage includes gay marriage? don’t get gay married, don’t allow gay people to marry in your church, and your problem is solved. Insist that the civil law which governs all of us, and does not include your faith-based beliefs, should deny my family the same protections accorded to yours, and you can expect a fight.

  • Yes, you’re correct about that Jewish Law. I’m not condemning anyone. The New Testament names a lot of sins of all kinds that are displeasing to the Lord — including all kinds of sexual sins. It all comes down to what’s in your heart, between you and the Lord, and if you would not feel shame if Jesus appeared in the room with you, doing whatever you choose to be doing. Or would He say to you, like He did to a woman caught in the act adultery in John 8, “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
    What Paul says in ROMANS 8, is what scares me for my family member who has now chosen to live a gay lifestyle. Paul says that those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God, and if you live according to the sinful nature you will die. I can’t bear to think of him going to hell, because up to now he was living a life after God. Now his life centers on all that goes along with living a gay lifestyle. We all sin, but when we repent of that and turn from that old life where sin controlled us, to a life where we want Jesus and the Holy Spirit to control our life, then that’s the only way we can please God. So it breaks my heart to see him choose this lifestyle now. And I know there are those who will say that’s not living according to the sinful nature because they’ve been deceived into believing it’s not a sin. That’s where they have to search their heart to see if it’s truly full of God’s Peace about what they’re doing. Those of us who love them and want them to live eternally with Jesus want them to live here on earth in a deep relationship with Him, instead of in the ways of the world.

  • “Making gay people criminals,” no where in my post did I say “make anybody criminals.” or use the word of God as a “weapon against other people” or anything even close to that rhetoric….but if you want me to say that homosexuality is not a sin in God’s eyes? That it is not clearly labeled in the Bible as a sin?….Then the answer is no. We are all called as Christians to “submit” to one another in the admonition of the Lord Eph. 5:2. If your neighbors house is on fire, then would you surely not run and tell them to get out so that they aren’t injured or worse killed? Is that not the ultimate form of love? Caring/loving so much for others, that you have the courage to minister to them, that their sin will ultimately lead to their getting hurt? Either in this life or eternally. Would you/I not want others to minister to us so that our sin doesn’t ultimately lead us to hurt? As I said God points out in the bible what is sin, and for us to “run from it”. Why? Not to hammer us in judgement, but because He loves us, and doesn’t want to see us hurt by our sins. But let me also point out, we are all sinners, and Praise God , His son made a way. His grace is bigger than our sin.

  • Read my first sentence again.

    In any case, one man’s house on fire is another man’s family BBQ.

  • God bless Ben:). “man(s)” is the problem. I think we both would agree? We should be concerned with what God considers a family BBQ and what He considers a fire.

  • It seems unlikely that Mr. Petersen is senile based on Mr. Merritt’s cogent assessment of his mental acuity. Nor do I think his nuanced reframing of the question is predicated on fears regarding whatever financial impact would ensue from a punitive action by booksellers against him…money at this time of his life is probably the last thing on his mind. He is perfectly entitled to recast his position insofar as clarity is concerned in order to avoid any misunderstanding of his position. The sheer volume of responses to these events demonstrates again that this issue is unresolved within the greater church and will remain so for the immediate future. For my part, I am grateful for this clarification, though it obviously displeases many.

  • Your assessment that homosexual acts are not listed as sin in the New Testament is wholly unsupported by the facts of linguistic interpretation and evidence. One need not rely only on the 1st chapter of Romans to appreciate that. The greater mass of biblical scholars for two thousand years have agreed that it is so. The revisionist approach you advocate is mostly if not wholly a product of the present day.

  • Ben, I don’t know if Ken identifies as a Christian, but allow me to apologize on his behalf if he so claims; his pathetic comment is not consonant with a genuinely Christian spirit, as I understand it.

  • But your response, while perhaps justified emotionally, should not be expressed in such a manner as you have chosen. If not out of respect for him, but out of respect for all others who post here civilly.

  • Thank you Edward. You are quite the gentleman.

    As for him, believe me, I wasn’t hurt. I’ve been called far worse by far better men for far less.

  • Even when we (collectively speaking) disagree on issues, it should never fall to the level of personal invective. I can’t say I’ve never lapsed, but I’d never use the language he used, nor in that manner, and when I lapse by taking a snarky tone, I usually add a note later to express regret for losing my composure. I really am disappointed by the angry and dismissive nature of people today when they contend with others who hold different opinions.

  • I always insist that marginalized, oppressed people speak nicely or else Daddy won’t listen to them. That is exactly and precisely what Jesus would have demanded. People who are in an oppressive group always respond to niceness, and look at all the progress that’s occurred because oppressed groups were super-servile and sweet to their oppressors.

  • Christians are their own worst problem. All the evidence we need to know that none of their claims are actually true, we can get from their actual behavior and words. Irrelevance couldn’t come faster or to a more deserving crowd. Hang in there. Love is winning.

  • That’s probably because atheists are way more Christlike than most Christians are…. funny that… 😉 I was Christian the first half of my life and I’m in no danger of returning to something that awful, but I can tell you for a certainty that it was a big problem for me back then when I realized that I sure knew a lot of horrible Christians and wonderful non-Christians. In fact… belief seemed to have nothing whatsoever to do with how good a person was. It didn’t make anybody better, and not having it didn’t make anybody worse. It was completely superfluous–irrelevant even. For all the “not perfect just forgiven” BS that Christians spout, it’s very clear that they think that belief does make them better, and that lacking it does make someone worse. But reality doesn’t bear this folk belief out at all.

    Christians would really love it if they could define “Christlike behavior” in ways that benefit whatever point they’re making right then, but the truth is that our culture does have this notion of what the term means–and modern Christians, particularly evangelicals caught in their culture wars’ grip, are as far from it as I am from a baptistry.

  • I cut a lot of slack with hidden comment history, usually. I keep mine hidden specifically because Christian control freaks harassed me and threatened me when it was public. I moderate and write a blog and often have to ban the same sort of Christians when they chase my commenters across-blogs and end up at mine. They really hate it when their victims refuse to play with them and consent is simply not in their dictionaries. But yeah, it’s pretty clear why this guy keeps his hidden, isn’t it? LOL

  • How disappointing about his retraction. Nothing could be more clear than his “Yes.” “Yes” is not a “put on the spot ” answer.
    It makes me wonder if progressive and liberal Christians would make as big
    a fuss about his retraction if he would not change his mind again?

  • I guess your friends can explain away the unambiguous statement made by Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10,

    “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

    nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

    I like to see a grammarian spin that…

  • I agree the comments are exhausting – and vitriolic. Your comment about leaving the church is exactly why I believe most of these folks have it wrong. Weaponizing Scripture to make outcasts is, in my mind, not fruit of the Spirit. And I would not go to a church either where such rabid comments were part of the discourse.

  • MOTHER WHO IS SUPERIOR
    The malevolent response from many of the religious conservatives is a good example of how religion actively acts as it is “dragged kicking and screaming” towards an inevitable and superior form of motherly secular humanism — a mother who loves all her children equally and does not play favorites.

  • Two problems with your statement. “Believe the Bible” covers multiple positions. First, I “believe the Bible” in the same way that I would believe any sincere believer relating their position and beliefs. I may not necessarily agree with everything they believe, but I certainly believe that they believe it. So it is with all the Biblical authors like Moses, Paul, and those who claimed to be Paul and wrote in his name.

    Second, there are plenty of Christians who believe in the spiritual authority of the Bible who also interpret the scriptures within to contain no reference to homosexuality. Only to specific behaviors. For example, in the commandments, a commandment is given to not lust after your neighbor’s wife. But we understand that to apply to women not lusting after her neighbor’s husband, as well. Lust is the problem. The passage isn’t meant to condemn any other form of marriage.

    Each and every passage in the bible that some point to as condemning homosexuality has been addressed by Christians who have discovered that when you don’t bring an agenda of condemning homosexuality to the scriptures, you won’t find one within them.

    You do not get to stand between God and myself or between God and any other Christian believer. You do not get to force your understanding of the scriptures and your beliefs about them on anyone else. You do not have that authority. Nobody does.

  • I’ve read your blog actually, haven’t been there in a while though. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt why they have their history hidden, but sometimes like you said it’s obvious.

  • That is one of the easiest. If you look at the original language, you will find that “homosexuals” is not listed. You will find a cultural reference to a specific behavior – one that does not reflect homosexuality on the whole. Why then does your Bible say “homosexuals?” Perhaps because at some point, someone had an agenda…

  • Actually, my position is quite well supported. Sexual acts are listed as sins, but homosexuality itself is not. As to the truth of a statement, it doesn’t matter how may people believe it. I do not advocate for revisionism. In fact, just the opposite. I encourage everyone to look into the exegesis of these passages and make sure that someone hasn’t already done a bit of revising. Because that is what you’ll find.

    Here is a very accessible book that can help the layman with these issues:
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FCK6UM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

    I urge everyone to not accept the idea that homosexuality is a sin simply because of tradition, or because that’s what they’ve been told. Look into it for yourself.

  • There is such a thing as bisexuality…and being in a heterosexual marriage doesn’t make you straight. It just gives you heterosexual privilege.

    You and I may have different ideas on what constitutes a “sexually broken lifestyle.”

  • Believe me, these individuals are “not” bi-sexual. :o) They’re redeemed, loved, healed and flourishing mothers, fathers and singles – with Jesus Christ vibrantly alive in their lives. Blessings to you, GP.

  • According to the Bible and 1900 years of church history a sexually broken lifestyle includes any one of the LGBTQ acronyms… but no more so than heterosexual sexual activity outside the covenant of marriage. Regardless, Jesus and His redeeming power is far far greater than the curse. :o)

  • Is there a sin that man can commit other than intolerance toward another man?

    I would argue that the worst sin is not “intolerance”, but putting ourselves in the position of God in our declaration and understanding of what is a sin and what is not. This holds true for both sides of this issue (as well as most other issues we wrestle with).

    Throughout history man has thought his predecessors were ignorant, and that “today’s man” has the correct answers. The stronger that view, the worse the outcome. (Truly study the writings of Paul, and then try to declare that he spoke with less wisdom than any one today speaks with.)

    We need to ALL admit that the only one who can determine what sin is and isn’t is God Himself. And that there are only two ways God has shown Himself to man: The OT scriptures and much more so, the person of Jesus Christ. And the only way we know and understand Jesus is through the writings of the NT.

    We can easily disagree on the true meaning or intent of individual passages in the Bible, but still fully believe in the Bible being the source of all our knowledge about Christ and God. (And “yes” there are some that are time / period / cultural based and may not apply equally today.) But if we choose to openly ignore what the Bible clearly teaches, and/or add to that witness, then we are committing the worst sin there is, making ourselves ‘god’.

  • “Love. Love God, love your neighbor” is a 21 cultural summary of the Bible.
    How does that square with what the Bible clearly teaches?

    “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” (If I love God and Neighbor, I have nothing to repent from)

    ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ (Does “love” include worship and service?)

    “Come, follow me, ‘Jesus said (Sorry Jesus, I love you and that’s enough.)

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (But if I love God and my neighbor, I can ignore the rest)

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (OK, so if I lust for a woman, I have committed adultery with her in my heart. Doesn’t mean I don’t love God or my neighbor, so adultery must no longer a sin?)

    “If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell” (How can my right eye cause me to sin? It doesn’t prevent me from loving God or neighbor)

    “But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.” (Or are warm fuzzies about loving each other enough?)

    “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. (Really? Everyone on earth agrees with Love God and Love your Neighbor. How can that be the ultimate truth and a narrow gate?)

    These are merely in the first few pages of Matthew.

    Truly there must be more to Christianity than “Love God, Love your Neighbor.”

  • People don’t need to be cured of Gay. People need to be healed from the effects of bigotry and self hatred that people like you create in LGBT people. How do you even sleep at night, anyway?

  • So, what about having sex with a menstruating woman? It is condemned in this same list, and bears a punishment of being “cut off” from the people. Clearly, ministers should be spending pulpit time on that, too. Interesting that the passage you quote is preceded by a condemnation of Moloch worship, and throughout the list condemnation of idolatry and pagan religious frequently occurs. Almost as if avoiding the worship and culture of the pagans around them is the real point… Take a look at the other condemnations of homosexuality and pay attention to how often the list includes idolatry. Like what is actually being condemned is idolatry, and the problem with homosexuality is its association with idolatry and not it in itself.

  • No cure to the curse except to take up our cross and follow Jesus. It’s the same for all of us, friend. No distinction. Blessings.

  • “Each and every passage in the bible that some point to as condemning homosexuality has been addressed by Christians…”
    I’ve always been curious…how exactly have these passages been addressed by Christians? I’m not trying to start a debate or arguement…just curious…

  • Usually, it involves digging into the original language of the passage to better understand what was being said. Sometimes, the historical and literary context of the passage comes into play, as well.

  • Captain Cassidy, sorry for your experience with people in church. I think something is missing about your thoughts on the intent of church. Its a hospital (Jesus said I came for the sick, not the well, healthy people don’t need a doctor.) That being said, lots of “on the way” people come to church, broken, lost and in need of direction. This being said, “Often” hurt people, hurt people! In my life in the Church I have discovered, I can’t fix people, I can’t fix the world, I can’t fix my country, I can’t even fix my city or my neighborhood, the truth is I can only fix me and when my world looks better so will the people in it. I go to church to grow in my relationship with my creator, it is that pursuit that transforms my life, the more of truth (God’s revelation) that gets in to me, the things I put to practice, its those things that transform me. If I was to only look at Christianity in perspective of the way other people act, I would not go myself, but rather I have to look at it from the perspective that I am there to Love God and then out of that I can learn to Love others.

  • >>>>
    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
    (Matthew 22:36-40)
    <<<<

    Love means to bring blessing to the beloved. One doesn't "love" in the abstract. Love is a transitive verb. Love requires an object — a Person — to be the recipient of that loving act.

    We love people by feeding the hungry, tending the sick, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner, spending time with the lonely, protecting the vulnerable, encouraging the fearful, etc ….

    If you have done any one of these to your LGBT neighbor, then you are loving him or her, and are following the Great Commandment.

    On the other hand, we do NOT love people when we malign their character, or tell lies about them, or forbid them from exercising their gifts, or harass them with our prideful version of "truth", or dismiss them from fellowship without just cause and without pursuit of reconciliation, etc…

    If you have done — and persist in doing — these kinds of things to your LGBT neighbor, you are not loving him or her and are not following the Great Commandment.

  • False. The terms used in 1 Corinthians 6:9, malakos and arsenokoites, are very specifically terms that refer to homosexual activity. Arsenokoites combines the words for male and coitus; is that really hard to figure out?

    But to be clear; the Biblical prohibition is against actions, not “orientation.” If someone has a same-sex attraction but lives celibately, that’s just as honoring to God as an unmarried person with a heterosexual orientation who remains celibate, or as a married heterosexual who is faithful in marriage.

  • I agree that maligning someone and telling lies about them is unloving. Sexuality is a significant enough part of most people’s lives that it’s easy for either side to react ungraciously when challenged. (Just in this thread, you can see impugning of motives going in both directions.) I do not defend those who seem gleeful as they consign those they disagree with to the flames of hell. (The Westboro cult–they don’t deserve the name “church”–is the most sickening example of this, but there are certainly others.)

    But I vigorously protest the assumption that loving means not confronting someone who we believe is ensnared in sin. Have you ever had an intervention with a drug abuser? I have. You won’t find an explicit statement in the Bible calling drug abuse a sin, but I don’t think there’s any doubt that to leave an addict wallowing in his addiction with no attempt to warn and help him out of it, or worse yet, to assist him in his actions, is the opposite of love. Does he like to be told the truth of what he’s doing? No. When he’s in the middle of it, does he think what he most needs is another few dollars to feed his habit, covering for him so he doesn’t get fired, etc.? Will he accuse me of not being his friend if I don’t? Quite possibly. But he’s deceived, and the most loving thing I can do is to gently, yet firmly, refuse to support the lie.

    And honestly, I consider deceived those who believe that homosexual activity is acceptable to God. There is no passage in the Bible that gives any kind of support to blessing homosexual activity; there are clear condemnations wherever it is described; and there is a clear picture of what appropriate sexual activity is. That’s not a reason to dehumanize those who think and act differently, but it is not merciful or loving to approve what the Source of all love disapproves. Love needs law to guide it, or it becomes mushy sentimentalism that excuses all sorts of misbehavior, be it adultery, irresponsibility, jealousy, or any number of other problems.

  • Here’s where you have to be careful. For example:
    I Corinthians 6:9
    Paul’s New Testament statements on same-sex acts must be carefully considered in the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul ministered and the people to whom he was writing. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.

    In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are “effeminate” and “abusers of themselves with mankind,” as translated in the King James version.

    The first word – malakos, in the Greek text-which has been translated “effeminate” or “soft,” most likely refers to someone who lacks discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament but never with reference to sexuality.

    The second word, Arsenokoitai, occurs once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy (1:10), but nowhere else in other literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning, “males” and the other “beds”, a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain.

    We ought to be able to look at the concept behind the two great commandments and understand that it isn’t homosexuality as an orientation that is sinful. It isn’t sexual activity between two people of the same sex that is sinful. It is anything that violates the command to love God or love our neighbor.

  • Even a true man of God can completely miss what is the will of God. It was true of Nathan. No reason Peterson would be any different. That Nathan would change his mind b/c of the leadership of the Holy Spirit reflets his being a true prophet of God. The same applies to Peterson. Like Nathan, he spoke. Like Nathan he corrects his error.

  • Well said, and clearly analyzed. Your analysis is the epitome of what it means to get to the heart of a matter, holding onto the Law of Love for God and neighbor.

  • If the biblical prohibition is against actions only, do you have any opinion on those who offer therapy toward the goal of fixing the homosexual attraction/orientation — i.e. “reparative” therapy? It seems to me that Exodus International was correct to close its doors because they recognize that fixing the orientation does not actually happen.

    One has to be careful not to read into things what has not been actually demonstrated. So when a [formerly gay] man says that the therapy was a “success” because he “no longer feels attraction to other guys”, all that is he actually saying is that he has not felt attractions >>so far<will< change next week or next year. But on this admission that he made to me, claims of no longer feeling same-sex attraction, which are popular claims to make in ex-gay circles, seem fairly unbelievable.

  • Anyone who claims they fully understand the causes of sexual orientation is either deceitful or deluded. (“Born that way” as a blanket statement is demonstrably untrue; identical twins have about a 50% correlation, where a purely genetic trait would be 100%.) There is clearly a complex mix of factors that go into sexual attraction, both particular (individuals) and general (orientation). Some people report changes in their orientation and attractions, both temporary and permanent, and it is dishonest of gay activists to trumpet apparent heterosexuals who announce that they are gay while denying the possibility of anyone going the other way.

    It is incontrovertible that gays and lesbians have been victims of sexual trauma, particularly in childhood, at much higher rates than the general population. Claims that this is merely because they were different and more vulnerable due to their underlying orientation are classic post hoc arguments that have little credibility. I’m NOT saying this is the cause of all homosexuality; see my first sentence. But there is a clear link that affects some, just as childhood sexual abuse is clearly linked with other kinds of social and sexual problems. Is it not plausible that therapy to deal with the trauma could, in at least some cases, assist the patient in partially or fully restoring what may have been their normal heterosexual orientation? There may be other situations where therapy can also be helpful for those who desire it.

    This is not a blanket endorsement of everything that has gone under the title of reparative therapy, which has sometimes included porn, physical abuse, and other mistreatment. But it is a recognition that our personality is a combination of mutable and immutable characteristics (and which is which is not always obvious, and varies by individual), and that saying “never” or “always” about the human condition is generally a good setup for being proven wrong (with the exception of noting that we are all sinners). I would say, though, that it is extremely unlikely that such therapy will be effective with an unwilling patient. I would also say that “incomplete” success may still be experienced as beneficial.

  • A Mockery? Do older people who cannot procreate violate said marriage? Or those who choose not to have children? Your sense of superiority is as unchristian as it gets.

  • For many years I’ve had mixed feelings about ‘The Message’ and tried to
    dismiss them because some passage somewhere might have given me a little
    soulful inspiration, but eventually I had to lay this book down.

    I would not diminish the fact that some passages stir up the emotions
    like a poem, a song, a concert, a play, or a movie; however I would not endorse or promote it as a translation or even a paraphrase of the Scriptures. It is a personal commentary … not the Bible in contemporary language as the publisher promotes

    What we put in writing and what we speak about is a reflection of what we believe and if Eugene Peterson is one of the most influential Christian thinkers in the world, no wonder the institutional church is impotent.

    After the threat of having his books removed from a major Christian retail
    chain an ambiguous response follows to include the exact phrase they were looking for, so they could continue selling product and everyone would profit.

    This reply is well stated. https://billmuehlenberg.com/…/peterson-homosexuality…/

  • I’d like to see statistics for your “incontrovertible” claim.

    Female sexuality has not been as thoroughly researched as male sexuality, so the studies I refer to reflect male sexuality, but we have made great strides recently in tying sexual orientation to biology. The twin studies were a double edged sword – they seemed to indicate that there had to be something genetic involved (since twins had a much high incidence rate than non-twins) while at the same time, seemingly refuting that genetics could be involved (since twins were not always the same). Further studies of family members across multiple generations helped to point researchers at the solution. It seems that sexuality is a combination of genetics and exposure to specific hormones present in the womb as the fetus develops. Specifically, the more older male siblings a child has, the more likely the hormone balance will be such that a particular gene will be turned on during development. This was shown to be able to produce the odd twin results from the twin studies where one twin received more exposure to the hormones than the other.

    Again, this is specific to male sexuality. However, given that we can find a genetic/biological process behind male sexuality, it stands to reason that there is some similar process behind female sexuality.

  • Do you know any same sex couples? Have you actually looked into the passages in the bible that supposedly condemn homosexuality? I ask this because you don’t seem familiar with them, on either count.

    It is ludicrous to compare addicted drug users to same sex couples. Literally, the only thing different between a heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple is the sexuality. Any comparison you make to one couple can be made for the other.

    As for the need for law to guide love, it seems to more often just get in the way. Look at Jesus eating corn in the field on the Sabbath, even though the law clearly forbid picking corn on the Sabbath. He explained that the purpose of the law was never to cause harm. When the application of the law would cause harm, the law is overridden. Where do you think the Great Commands come from? From the extension of that idea.

    Stop and consider God. A spiritual being. Why would God care about sexual intimacy, except insofar as it might cause harm? Why would God care about X, Y, or Z, except insofar as they might cause harm? When someone tells me, “God wants you to do ABC, and God will send everyone who does DEF to hell,” I ask myself one question to start with.

    Why?

    Would that make sense for God to do? Does that align with goodness? With love? If not, it doesn’t matter to me if it is the guy down the street telling me, or the preacher in the church on the corner, or the preacher on TV, or Paul speaking to me from over a thousand years in the past through his writings. People tend to want a God that is like them. A God that reinforces their own beliefs. And they assume that God would do that because they assume their own beliefs are good, so obviously, God would agree with them.

    I don’t make those same assumptions, about myself or anyone else. I just go back to the core.

    Love God. Love my neighbor.

  • But, they were able to procreate or had the potential to procreate. Do same sex couples have that option? Are you saying God’s word is unchristian? Where in the Christian Bible do it reference marriage as between two people of the same sex. You twisted acceptance of a sin is on the wrong side of God.. Can you prove that God consideres marriage as being people of the same sex? Please provide proof!

  • you are impressed with your word salad unfortunately they are rendered moot

  • See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1497098/ and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22676462 as examples of studies finding 27-35% of homosexual men reporting childhood sexual abuse; the rate for boys in the general population is under 4%. Those reporting abuse histories were more likely to engage in various risky behaviors as well. For women, see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18447763 (lesbians and bisexuals twice as likely as heterosexual women to report CSA).

    I agree that there is probably a genetic component to same-sex attraction. I deny that it is determinative. It is certainly true that people have different personalities from day one; any parent knows that. And some personalities are probably more likely to develop in a same-sex direction depending on various influences that may exist in their lives. I agree that for many, if not most, same-sex attraction is not experienced as a choice, but as something unbidden, natural. As a Christian, though, who believes that all of us are sinners, and that every part of our will is tainted by sin (not that we’re as bad as we could be, but that no part of us is completely clean), I don’t accept that because something feels natural, it’s therefore God-honoring.

  • Yes, I know same-sex couples. I have been active for many years in arts circles, particularly professional-level choral music, and a considerably higher than average proportion of men in such groups are gay. I count some of them as friends. Just because I don’t agree with your opinion doesn’t mean I’m not familiar with it or with those who espouse it.

    I am not claiming that homosexual behavior is the same as drug abuse. I’m making an analogy; the person involved in either case is not necessarily in the best position to judge what is best for him, because his judgment may be clouded by the deception in which he is ensnared. But it is not loving to encourage someone to continue in a path that is not healthy physically or spiritually. (Life expectancy for gays has long been known to be lower than for the general population, even before AIDS.) While we as humans need to be careful about claiming to know what’s best for someone else, I believe God has the right to make that claim.

    Literally, the only thing different between a heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple is the sexuality.

    False. Homosexual and heterosexual couples have huge differences. The most fundamental is that a homosexual pairing is by nature sterile. Any children by definition have another parent from outside the pairing, and are denied living permanently with both of their biological parents. They are denied daily familial interaction with parents of both sexes, and it simply is not the case that a mother and a father are interchangeable in the way they relate to their children. And the couple lacks the complementarity of the opposite sex for their own benefit, not just at a physical but at an emotional and spiritual level. “One flesh” is a physical reality (male and female together can accomplish something–conception–that neither can do alone or with another of the same sex) and more than that besides. And in its connotation of exclusivity is another huge difference: homosexual couples are far more likely to engage in sexual activity with others (gay-friendly researchers find rates of 50-90% among “committed” couples, compared to around 10% for heterosexual married couples, and some gay activists argue that heterosexuals should emulate them, “learn from them,” in this).

    You argue that the purpose of the law is never to cause harm. But we have a difference of opinion on what causes harm in the matter of sexuality. Your perspective is that what feels right to someone is good, and that to prohibit them from doing that is to harm them. You deny the possibility that someone’s sexual preferences may not be healthy, even if engaged in consensually. Bluntly put, that is a point of view totally unsupported by 2000 years of Christian teaching. I’m not speaking merely of homosexual conduct, but of premarital and extramarital sex, not to mention unmentionable varieties of sexual activity. I do not consider homosexual activity inherently especially egregious; I do think there’s a difference between committing a sin (doing what you know is wrong) and celebrating a sin (claiming it’s not wrong at all, despite clear contrary teaching).

    To be sure, some of the Church Fathers went overboard in their restrictions on sexual behavior, and some were frankly misogynist. But there is no support for sexual activity outside of heterosexual marriage from the first century to the present, until the Sexual Revolution permeated secular culture and started seeping into the church. And the teaching was that sexual activity is to be limited in this way precisely to protect from harm: the harms of misdirected sexual passion, of misordered priorities (such as making one’s sexual identity primary over one’s identity in Christ), of hindering family formation and preservation, of promiscuity, of oversexualizing life (particularly for children). I’m sorry that you can’t see the larger picture.

    But I’m going to have to call it quits here. I have other responsibilities that are incompatible with continuing this discussion. If you want the final word, go ahead.

  • That not true! Why do you believe BS? You article is written by an Gay advocate group. This group says the word Pais could have 3 possible meaning depending on the context! Thats a stretch and it is an opinion that caters to a sin.. And it does not use definite words.. It uses words like it “could” and “possible.” Total BS!

  • Your article is BS and you know it and it.. There is nothing in the bible that suppports same sex sexual behavior!

  • Lol You article is BS! The gay advocacy group that wrote it had to dip deep for this one.. They are grasping for straws…lol

  • Why did God not say marriage is between a male and male? He said marriage is between a male and female.. And yes gay behavior was going on back them but God condemed it!

  • Thank you for providing the information. However, I looked at your references, and the one that was a meta-study (which also corrected for bias in the sample pools of some of the included surveys) put the figure at just over 20% for homosexual men. That is not too far removed from estimates of the actual prevalence if CSA in the general population – see http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics

    So I am unconvinced that one could support the idea that even a grossly disproportionate number of homosexuals could trace their orientation to abuse.

    The research on the genetic drivers of sexual orientation is clear. As far as environmental interaction with those drivers, it is true that people may grow up in environments that are more accepting or less accepting of homosexuality, and thus they may suppress or express their orientation accordingly.

    I’m a Christian with a great appreciation for the essential nature of free will. As such, I see things a bit differently than most. It doesn’t matter that everybody sins. We are not perfect. We are specifically designed to not be perfect. We are designed to choose and to learn. That we sin does not mean that we should define ourselves as sinners, or that we need be tainted by sin. Those are choices we have to make, as well. God does not need, nor want honor. God is beyond that. God does not seek honor. God would like us to honor that which God honors. The free choice of goodness over evil. The choice of love.

    That choice is natural, I think. We are made to love. And there is nothing about homosexuality that precludes love. It is like any preference we have. There is nothing about my preference for pizza over asparagus that precludes love.

    I know that not all the scriptures agree with my understanding. Peter, Paul, and those who wrote under their names were creatures of their time and environment. They shared their understanding of God. It is tragic that fear has led us to hunker down in their errors, struggling to emulate them as best we can.

  • Your drug abuse analogy is flawed because it assumes what it nominally seeks to explore – whether or not the person involved is capable of making good decisions for themselves.

    Sure, God has the right to tell someone what is best. God isn’t the one doing it, though. You are. So get out of the way. Stop trying to stand between God and that person. Stop trying to shove your understanding of what Paul wrote between God and that person. Nobody has the spiritual authority to stand between God and that person unless that person puts them there.

    On the differences between same-sex and hetero couples:
    * Many hetero couples are sterile, and they know that they are sterile from the beginning. Like sterile hetero couples, same-sex couples can adopt. Some can use other means to get pregnant.
    * Studies have shown that children raised in homes by same-sex parents actually fare better than children raised by heterosexual parents.
    * Who are you to enforce your philosophy of marriage on anyone else? Your interpretation of “one flesh” and its importance is your own. Same-sex couples can find complementary partners just as easily as heterosexual couples.

    On the purpose of the law:
    * You cannot presuppose that a thing is harmful without any standing to render judgment or evidence beyond simple belief. 2000 years of being wrong is just 2000 years of being wrong (although modern research is uncovering very interesting information about homosexuality within the early church, so maybe it hasn’t been 2000 years).
    * To sin is to “miss the bulls eye” on the target. It is to be less than perfect. But if you’ve ever shot arrows, you know that there is plenty to celebrate in hitting the target, and in improving your aim.
    * The trappings of modern Christianity are related to the history of the church, especially as it relates to the canonization of scripture. Such was a mistake from the moment it happened. Jesus specifically demonstrated the problems with canonizing scripture as he repeatedly violated the scriptures that had risen around Judaism, demonstrating that adherence to the scriptures was actually damaging to the whole point behind them. And what did his followers do? They collected the writings of humans and canonized them, elevating them by calling the the “Word of God.” Humans can be dense, sometimes. Sexual activity outside of marriage can be handled in such a way that it does not preclude love or cause harm. Maybe not for YOU, and as such, I’m not trying to throw a stumbling block in your path, trying to tell you that you must go out and violate your beliefs. But I’m trying to get you to realize that all you’re doing is preaching about the horrors of bacon to people who have moved beyond the laws of clean and unclean meat. You’re throwing stumbling blocks at people.

    Stop trying to wedge yourself in between God and someone else. That isn’t where you belong.

  • Try doing your homework before pushing lies against people. Perhaps you need to come to terms with your own sexuality?

  • lol I have come to terms with my sexual behavior! But, your problem is that you believe that gay is an identity instead of a sexual behavior. God loves all people regardless of your behavior. However, he does not love the behavior of all people…

    But, God still does not condone gay behavior which is why your article is BS… God loves the person but not the sin and gay is a sexual behavior

  • You don’t even realize that in ancient Hebrew/Aramaic there is no word for Homosexuality. But keep trying

  • No there is not and I never said it was. But, Its the action of the same sex having sexual intercourse with each other which describes homosexuality… And Gay orginally meant Happy!

  • lol You have no knowledge of what the word eunuch means! looks like your grasping for straws and will believe anything as long as its validate gay behavior..SMH

    Definition of eunuch
    1
    : a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
    2
    : a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
    3
    : one that lacks virility or power political eunuchs

  • Where did Jesus say marriage was between people of the same sex? So, becuase Jesus was so called silent on homosexuality you take that as his approval?

    As far as Paul is concerned, is evverything Paul said is not true or only when it comes to gay behavior? Was Jesus no speaking through Paul himself? So, to deny that homosexuality is sinful is to deny Jesus himself! But, God forgives all sins if you repent…

  • You really need to come to terms with yourself and realize your thinking is from another age and an ignorant time and place. Open your mind so you can use the brain God gave you instead of walking around with your intellect turned off.

  • Paul’s concept of a woman’s “role” in the church is totally anathema to Christs

  • The surprising claims of a respected historian regarding the ancient Christian church’s stance on gay marriage sparked controversy recently in advance of a new publishing of the book that originally championed the claims.

    John Boswell was an openly gay, Catholic historian and professor at Yale University. A good period of his career involved advocating that the early Christian church often conducted ceremonies joining two men together in ritualistic unions.

    In 1994, the year before he died, Boswell published Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe, his strongest defense of this theory. The very first digital version of that book is slated to be published at the end of August.

    Perhaps because of this fact, Boswell’s work has garnered fresh attention in the media. However, his controversial work has for years shown up in discussions of homosexuality in religion, according Fordham University’s overview of Boswell’s career. His ideas gained instant widespread recognition after they were cited by a character in the popular syndicated cartoon strip “Doonesbury.” As a result, at least four papers dropped the strip in protest, according to Slate.

    Much of Boswell’s most controversial research featured the academic’s discovery of more than 60 texts — dating back to the 8th century — that described ceremonies the historian said were essentially “same-sex unions.”

  • But, that still does not mean God considered people of the same sex a marriage, does it? There were all kinds of rituals going on back then, does that mean God suupported all of them?

    There are some Christians churches performing and recognizong so called ‘marriages’ between people of the same sex today; but, that still does not mean it is of God. Wolves can be in sheep clothing!

  • A bias opinion from a gay person.. BS! He could not study the topic without being bias.. He had an agenda

  • God’s word dont change… Are you calling God’s word ignorant? Just because the secular world embrace sin, does not mean true christians should.. I rather be on the right side of God instead of the right side of history… And homoxual behavior is nothing new. It been going on since the beginning of time. So if they rejected it then, it should be rejected now!

  • If the Holy Spirit works through the Church then the obvious is true. Again your obsession with sex instead of Money which in the words of Jesus is responsible for the greatest sinfulness of man, then there is a disconnect that you are choosing not to recognize.

  • Gay behavior is not the holy spirit!
    Some peoole denounce gay behavior but when they are boycotted, they all of a sudden support gay behavior.. Is that not the same thing?

  • Isnt money the reason why people support gay behavior? People who do not support it dont because of God’s word..

  • LOL you are at the end of your ability to debate. Please address the main reason for evil and that is money. But as a Republican you probably have 2 100 dollar bills above your bed in the sign of the cross

  • This is what I’m hearing from you:

    “I love you, but I will always hate *that*, I will never accept *that*”

    That isn’t love.

    Let me re-post this excerpt from Mary Lou Wallner’s letter to her lesbian daughter.

    “Undoubtedly, the most difficult part of your letter was the gay thing. I will never accept that in you. I feel it’s a terrible waste, besides being spiritually and morally wrong. For a reason I don’t quite fathom, I have a harder time dealing with that issue than almost anything in the world. I do and will continue to love you, but I will always hate that, and will pray every day that you will change your mind and attitude.”

    Not long after receiving this letter, her daughter committed suicide, despite Mrs. Wallner’s mistaken belief that she really loved her. “I will never accept that in you…. I will always hate that.” But her letter only reflected her trust in the popular slogan, “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” Her rejection was justified by the expert advice to not accept a son or daughter’s announcement that they are gay, rejection advice given repeatedly to millions by author, psychologist, and political pundit James Dobson.

    My Mother did the same to me, when I came out. Thank God I had loving friends that kept me alive while I was healing from being disowned. I was on spiritual life support for a very long time after that. Not because I’m a lesbian, but because m Mother threw me to the wolves, literally, and abandoned me when I needed her most. My story is not unique. Comparing my orientation to a drug addiction is not loving at all. It’s malicious. And slanderous. How dare you.

    People may believe they love gays and lesbians. They may say, “I don’t hate homosexuals. I don’t hate anybody! I love homosexuals, it’s their lifestyle I hate.” But it isn’t what you say, or believe, or think you believe. It’s not how you qualify what you say and how you wrap fine-print disclaimers around it. What matters is what a person hears. We talk about our love; we talk about God’s love. But the real energy is in the word hate.

    That’s what gay and lesbian people hear. God hates them.

    Pastors and parents say they don’t hate homosexuals, and insist they only hate the “lifestyle,” that is, they only hate homosexual sex acts. Then Christian kids, gay and lesbian people, sons and daughters, commit suicide. I can only say that those those brave, defiant pronouncement on behalf of God based on the Bible are hateful. Are they protected speech? Yes. Is it the free exercise of religion? Yes. However, when we casually disavow responsibility for the impact of our words on the innocent, and the innocent take their own lives because of those careless, literally irresponsible words–well, if that doesn’t constitute hate, let’s look for something else.

    On “Law and Order” I hear phrases like “wreckless disregard,” “criminal negligence,” “depraved indifference,” and the like. If “hate” is too strong, then how about criminal.

    I’ll leave you with Proverbs 24:11-12

    Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to die;
    save them as they stagger to their death.
    Don’t excuse yourself by saying, “Look, we didn’t know.”
    For God understands all hearts, and he sees you.
    He who guards your soul knows you knew.
    He will repay all people as their actions deserve.

  • Thank you for your love and acceptance Matthew. To a battered soul that means more than you could possibly imagine.

    God bless you. <3

  • The main reason for evil is the devil who wants people to go against God’s word! Trust me, I am not a republician…

  • And you got it wrong! It the love of money that God was talking about, not money itself.. Read your bible!

  • Well now if there were no money then there would be nothing to love above God now would there be? Stop reading Paul and concentrate on Jesus

  • Not true! People love God for the good things he does and eternity life.. Have you ever heard of volunteering? You entire view of God is screwed up which is why I can see how you think God approves of gay behavior..

  • Stop have sex outside of marriage.. And why is it that AIDS effect the gay community at a drastic rate?

  • Why is he dostributing condoms instead of teaching God’s word which is any sex outside of marriage is against God? Did you not read that in your bible? Did you know that any sex outside of marriage is a sin?

  • Did Jesus say it is a sin to have sex outside of marriage? why promote sex outside of marriage?

  • Passing out condoms has nothing to do with faith? That is a thoughtful actiom but it has nothing to do with faith, am I wrong?
    Did Jesus promote sex outside of marriage?

  • You are promoting sex outside of marriage! Maybe God allow diseases to get people to only have sex to the person you are married to, agree?

  • No problem at all, Traci. I try to remember that most of the people who cause the hurt and harm are doing what they think is right – or at least, they are rationalizing it to themselves that way. Sometimes, all it takes is just a nudge to get them to reevaluate. Sometimes, they need to see that it is okay to take responsibility for what you believe, that you don’t have to align to your neighbor, or to tradition.

    I firmly believe that most people are good at heart. Given the right information, they will make the right choices. Given the chance, they prefer love.

  • I try to believe in the basic goodness of people too. I’ve had a few conversations with people that didn’t understand the issues facing LGBT folk like myself. I shared my journey to self acceptance with them, and it did get them to reevaluate their beliefs. So change can happen. But it can be hard to remember that when you’re under attack from people calling themselves Christians while saying the most awful, vile things. But I do know change is possible, and I do know there are many allies, both within and outside the Church fighting and suffering alongside us.

    Here is the story of my journey if you’d like to read it.
    http://theoldadventuresofthenewkristine.blogspot.com/2015/04/my-story.html

    Here is an awesome blog post about holding space for people to change.
    https://kaitlincurtice.com/2017/06/11/people-who-hold-space-will-heal-the-church/

  • If god wanted to be clear on that point he’d have written it in the moon so that none could deny it.

    It seems unclear for a reason.

  • I don’t have free will. I was never consulted before birth, and there is no escape from death or taxes.

  • To say “You must approve what I do or you don’t really love me” is emotional blackmail, and has very little relation to love as understood in Christian scripture and teaching. There are countless warnings in the Bible against those who say what people want to hear, rather than what God says. Christians are to speak “the truth in love,” and both truth and love are vital in that formulation.

  • Richard i just realised from the above text that your a protestant holding on to “your protestant traditions” tell me Richard how far back does your protestant tradition go

  • The Catholic Church can provide a list of all those who after the martyrdom death of the first pope, St Peter, who were elected to govern the church inspired by the HOLY GHOST. Where is the “protestant” list of successors, or are they lost somewhere

  • All your arguements are bunkem THE CATHOLIC CHURCH never supported slavery, segregation, anti-Semitism, a flat earth, etc.

  • The bible does not support or promote ssm the only thing that supports ssm in your claim is that of the protestant “faith”
    The founder of the “heretical protestant faith” martin luther said “If you’re going to sin, sin boldly but believe in god more boldly.” Now if that does not scream out sexual perversion, to say the least, then what will.

  • “Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons … It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given”.- Pope Pius IX” http://www.globalblackhistory.com/2015/11/the-role-of-the-roman-catholic-church-in-slavery.html

    “As James Bennett has documented, the centuries-old practice of racial integration (but not equality) in New Orleans Catholic community gave way to a segregated Church in the early twentieth century with the approval and cooperation of the Catholic hierarchy.”

    http://jsr.fsu.edu/Volume12/Catholics%20and%20Jim%20Crow%20Review%20Essay.html

    As to the flat earth, it was “a laughable dogma that stubbornly persisted until Columbus demolished it, bravely prevailing despite the ignorant protests of the Spanish cardinals.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-j-rossano/starting-a-war-with-a-fla_b_707471.html

    The Church has apologized for centuries of anti-Semitism. I assume you have never been to the Prague Ghetto. See, as an example: http://www.jns.org/news-briefs/2015/5/10/austrian-catholic-and-protestant-churches-apologize-for-anti-semitism#.WZEjCVV96cM=

  • Whoa! Your assertion implies that you have not read my essay, because it is just a bald assertion about God’s will revealed in the Bible. Give me more than a conclusory assertion about what the Bible supports. What in the Bible proves that God forbids same-sex marriage? I have a very good idea what answer you would give to my question. In my essay, I prove that answer to be based on misinterpretations of the Bible. My proof is based not only on the Bible but also on Protestant tradition (or “faith” as you prefer, the sneer quotes suggesting your conviction that Protestants do not really have faith). What is the Protestant tradition that I appeal to? It is the Protestant tradition that the Ten Commandments are all of God’s moral law — that the moral law does not include natural law as the Roman Catholic tradition understands it. But I do not merely cite that tradition as authority; I actually argue for it at length, and include a refutation of the Roman Catholic reasoning about natural law in relation to same-sex marriage.
    I would welcome your giving me some reasonable support for your assertion. Please, refute the thesis of my essay. Show me how all (or any) of my interpretations of the Bible are untenable.

  • After having read the section of the bible you outlined and knowing that you hold onto your heretical “traditional protestant faith”, your interpretation of (the passages in question) it, speaks volumes of the heresy once saved always saved which is contradictory to the bible. With this arguement one can say that Judas who was an apostle who might i add was able to cure people how come he was not saved he was one of the twelve.

  • Dear Peter,
    God commands us to treat everyone with respect and to edify our brothers and sisters in Christ. You recklessly charge me with heresy, which is disrespectful. Referring to my interpretation of Rom. 1:24ff., you impute to me a belief in “once saved always saved” even though my interpretation of the passage has nothing to do with that. Nor do you edify anyone by simply asserting that “once saved always saved” is “contradictory to the bible.” What in the Bible contradicts it? Judas’s joining the Twelve did not imply his salvation — no more than your joining the Roman Catholic Church implies your salvation. Jesus said that none of his own, whom he saves, can be taken from him. John 10:26-29. If you deny as heresy the belief that anyone once saved is always saved, you deny as heresy the word of God.

  • The apostle Peter was a bishop of Rome, one bishop among many bishops of many cities. He was not called pope. Nor was the person elected as his successor called pope.
    I do not doubt that the entire succession of bishops of Rome was God’s will, but God’s willing someone to occupy an office does not imply that the person is an obedient prophet who contributes to sound tradition. God willed that Judas Iscariot occupy an office among Jesus’ Twelve. Would you place Judas Iscariot beside Peter and the other bishops of Rome as authors of sound Christian tradition?

  • Richard, I’ve always thought that, becsuse time is so limited, for all of us, the the last thing i want to do us to edify anyone at the expense of truth; for instance if you were to say something to me that would help me to uunderstand the bible better than what I currently do, I would prefer that, than to be edified in my erroneous bible interpretation, if that meant the salvation of my soul, in the end I would prefer to go to Heaven being corrected, than going to hell in what i thought was right but isn’t .
    One of the many precepts of Christianity is the salvation of soul’s thats it. Unfortunately the bible interpretation of today has evolved into 44k different interpretation due to the equal number of faiths of which only one can be truthful and therefore correct. Imagine if you will a car that needed to be assembled and someone then says, “here are all the 44k different ways to assemble the car” what would you think. Which book would you start with first, how will you determine whether that book, is the correct book and not one of the other 43,999 and who is to say which book is right above all the others.
    With regards to Judas since I brought it up if Judas had died before his temptation he would have gone to Heaven but he did not.
    Quoting you “Jesus said that none of his own, whom he saves, can be taken from him. John 10:26-29.” Of course not only if they choose; I dont know whether you know it or not but JESUS wants everyone to be saved hence he chooses everyone but not everyone choose him, they prefer to go their own way. Jesus said it himself “The road to perdition is wide as many will go that way, and the road to salvation is narrow as only a few will go that way.
    To accept as truth that once saved always saved is heretical if that were the case then hell, of which JESUS spoke of does not exist so he must have been lying

  • Quoting you “The apostle Peter was a bishop of Rome, one bishop among many bishops of many cities.” Yes he was the bishop of Rome but he was also the head of the church of which JESUS appointed and gave him authority to rule over above all others; that authority is passed down to his successor and so on…..

    As time went on the title of Pope was adopted that certainly does not diminish the authority that St Peter or that of his successors, before or after the title was adopted
    Question for you, Does a boss of a company, cease to be the boss, once the company expands, if he adopts the title of CEO of the company which he controls, does his authority diminish.

  • 1. You write, “if Judas had died before his temptation he would have gone to Heaven but he did not”. If and only if Judas had saving faith, he would have gone to Heaven. We do not know what was the state of Judas’s faith before his temptation, so we do not know whether he would have gone to Heaven if he had died before his temptation.
    2. You write, “Jesus chooses everyone but not everyone choose him.” Jesus said, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” Matt. 22:14. Read the parable that precedes this statement. Jesus — the King — may call everyone but Jesus does not choose everyone. (I agree that not everyone chooses Jesus.)
    3. You write, “once saved always saved is heretical if that were the case then hell, of which JESUS spoke of does not exist so he must have been lying.” Hell is for those many who are not chosen – for those many who do not and never did have saving faith in Jesus.

  • Though Peter was very important, not one of the other eleven seems to have thought Peter was boss; obviously, neither Paul nor James thought Peter was boss. All the lore about Peter’s being head of the Church was made up long after Peter died.
    As for Jesus’ appointment of Peter, I assume you would refer to Matthew 16:18. But this statement of Jesus follows immediately after Peter’s confession of faith in Jesus as Christ. Jesus was not saying that he appointed Peter the founder of the Church. Jesus was saying that the Church would be built on faith in Christ or that the Church would be built on Christ himself. The powers Jesus conferred on Peter Jesus conferred on every Christian.

  • Isn’t the foundational issue for all Christians “what does Scripture say” about any particular topic? If not, then Christianity is just one big “Phil Donahue show” of blathering opinions based on nothing solid. Putting aside the vitriol that abounds in so many of these comments, I believe, to get at the heart of a Christian worldview, the foundational question is NOT whether a homosexual can be a kind and decent person (he/she can obviously be both). Rather, a Christian must ask “does God provide thru His Word a discernible, clear teaching about human sexuality that applies to all humans, regardless of the type/kind of sexuality?” If the answer is “no,” then all opinions offered on this subject are merely “hot air”. That may be one reason why there are so many insults offered in the above comments. But if the answer is “yes” (i.e., God does provide clear teaching about human sexuality), then axiomatically, a Christian’s worldview must be under the authority of such teaching. Does Scripture acknowledge sexually intimate behavior between two people of the same sex as categorically different than sexually intimate behavior between a man and a woman? If so, what is the text? In other words, does the Scriptural proscription of adultery and fornication only apply to heterosexuals and not homosexuals? If so, what is the text? Please respond with specific Scriptural references, not broad overviews. Thanks.

  • Where does it condemn the murder of the entirety of humanity, except for an old drunk and his family, and including the murder of the little babies who couldn’t have sinned even if they wanted to?

    No, the Bible praises that action, and calls it righteous.

    And that is why I don’t accept the Bible as any kind of a moral guide.

  • I’m sorry, many don’t know what Jesus taught, but remember some of us love and embrace all people. We try to govern our lives like our Teacher, Savior. .
    I don’t call myself a Christian anymore because i want be associated with the likes of such bad teaching / living..
    I’m a Christ Follower. ..
    My calling is to love, not judge. .
    We might disagree, but I want be disagreeable. .

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