Former Alabama Chief Justice and U.S. Senate candidate Roy Moore speaks at a revival, Tuesday, Nov. 14, 2017, in Jackson, Ala. (AP Photo/Brynn Anderson)

Why evangelicals might vote for Roy Moore anyway

(RNS) — To many onlookers, evangelical support for Roy Moore is simply a matter of politics.

The U.S. Senate candidate, accused of making unwanted sexual advances to nine women when they were teens and he was in his 30s, is seen by many evangelicals — who are overwhelmingly Republican — as one of them.

“He is nothing but a godly man trying to make this country come to its senses because of liberals and the other side of the fence trying to protect their evil ways,” an evangelical supporter of Moore recently told a reporter at Jackson, Ala.’s Walker Springs Road Baptist Church.

But political experts, historians and religion scholars say there are deeper explanations for why the former judge appears poised to become the next senator from heavily Republican Alabama during Dec. 12's special election. Yes, politics is a big part of it, but so too is a particular way evangelicals engage with the world around them.

Conservative Christians, said Molly Worthen, a historian of American religion at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, have developed an intellectual strategy for engaging with the public called “presuppositionalism.”

It holds that evangelicals should examine other people’s underlying suppositions before debating them. If those people or groups don’t adhere to the right worldview — one that accepts the Bible as the inerrant word of God — they should not be trusted.

The argument, said Worthen, goes like this: “When secular liberals say that the public square can be this neutral space, fair to all metaphysical beliefs, that’s a lie, because folded into that it is a secular humanist worldview, a set of anti-Christian presuppositions that are now being foisted onto our public square. You, as conservative evangelicals, need to fight that, and you need to be savvy when they try to pull one over on you.”

Worthen credits Francis Schaeffer (1912-1984), the widely influential evangelical theologian, best known for his crusading opposition to abortion, as the architect of this way of thinking.

The Washington Post — which broke the story about four women who allegedly had sexual encounters with Moore while in their teens —  is deeply distrusted by many evangelicals, who see it a secular media outlet with a liberal bias — one of many.

President Donald Trump, in his rush to label any news coverage unsympathetic to his administration and his performance as “fake news” has unwittingly tapped into this long tradition of evangelical intellectual resistance, she said. Evangelicals distrusted the media long before it became politically expedient to do so.

That evangelical tradition of resistance to a secular way of thinking has become part and parcel of Alabama's culture, said Jason Roberts, a professor of political science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

"Alabamians are very prideful and very defiant about their being different from anyone else," said Roberts, who grew up in Falkville, Ala. "They’re not ashamed of being different. They’re not ashamed of being made fun of."

For that reason, Roberts said, blowback from Washington political leaders such as Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, who said Moore should “step aside,” is unlikely to affect the campaign.

Alabama evangelicals admire Roy Moore and not only for refusing to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the Alabama Judicial Building in Montgomery, which houses the state Supreme Court. Moore has been a dogged champion of greater religious freedom for evangelicals. He is a staunch opponent of abortion and same-sex marriage and talks of privileging Christianity as the country’s preeminent religion — all positions favored by conservative evangelicals around the country.

There are many vocal critics of Moore, including Russell Moore (no relation), the chief ethicist for the Southern Baptist Convention; Ed Stetzer, executive director of the Billy Graham Center, at Wheaton College; and several prominent evangelical women such as Kay Warren, Beth Moore and Nancy French.

But in the main, evangelical voters in Alabama are expected to support Moore.

“For these evangelicals politics serves a purpose,” said John Fea, professor of American history at Messiah College. “It’s a means toward a more moral end: reclaiming American as a Christian country, end Roe vs. Wade and gay marriage, go back to a Christian golden age."

That's not to say Moore is invincible.

Even in Alabama, where half the residents consider themselves evangelical Christians — double the national average, according to a Pew Research study — Moore has struggled to win hearts and minds in past elections. In 2006 and 2010, he lost the Republican primary in the race for governor of Alabama.

It’s possible some evangelicals may switch their longstanding Republican allegiance and vote for Democrat Doug Jones, a prominent lawyer who has prosecuted several high-profile civil rights cases.

But given Jones’ views on abortion — he opposes any restrictions on abortion — it’s unlikely many would.

Instead, some evangelicals will sit out the election. There's no other consequential issue on the ballot, so it may be easier for some to stay home, said Roberts.

Those evangelicals who do go to the polls will likely vote for Moore.

“When (people) face really tough choices, the tie-breaker will be partisanship,” said John C. Green, political science professor and director of the Bliss Institute of Applied Politics at the University of Akron.

“Sometimes that’s just instinctive. It can also be cognitive. They’ll say, ‘Jones is a better candidate, but he’ll go to Washington and caucus with the liberals,’ or ‘Moore may be a flawed human being but he’ll be a Republican vote....Their religious values and their political views are strongly linked."

 

Comments

  1. Because tribalism is more powerful than ethics. My group, right or wrong.

  2. Presuppositionalism is just another way of saying ideology over facts and claimed values..

    And Moore is just another way of saying power, money, and dominion will always be superior to facts and claimed values.

  3. “Moore has been a dogged champion of greater religious freedom for evangelicals.”

    In other words, more freedom of religion for evangelicals, less freedom of religion for everyone else.

  4. I wonder how much of the Schaefer quote is really Francis or his son Frankie. According to Frank “Frankie” Schaefer, he’s the one who pushed his father to get political, an action he now regrets. Read Frank’s memoir “Crazy for God” for some insight into what was behind the scenes in the formation of The Religious Reich.

  5. I grew up Missionary Baptist in rural WV late 60’s/70’s. We shouted Amen, had revivals, sang really loud, and got saved and baptized, but I PROMISE we were nothing like evangelicals today. First, most of WV was Democrat. We believed in humility, working hard, paying dues, helping your neighbor, moderation, and sexual piousness. A man such as Moore would have been dogged to the ends of the earth, his reputation so tarnished he wouldn’t show his face again. Times they have a’changed, friends. Now I have Evangelicals who proclaim with bombastic egoism that Christ absolutely was a Capitalist, and would approve of Trump.

    ???????????????????????????????????

  6. Can we finally dispense with the fiction that Evangelicals give a damn about rule of law, morals and ethics? It is all just a sop to justify attacking others.

    Morals for thee but not for me.

  7. If Judge Moore should accidentally survive and get elected to the U.S. Senate, he probably should send a Hallmark thank-you card to liberal Sen. Al Franken, the single biggest reason why Moore is still in the Senate race.

    Moore was down for the count, but then Franken jumped into the ring and gave Moore the time he needed to recover. Franken got by at first, but in 2010, Sen. Franken decided to git some MORE photo-op fun with a woman. A killer double-dip; now he’s got no excuses.

    So now, Alabama voters are seriously wondering why Mr. Moore should be defeated while Mr. Frankenstein continues to get a free pass.

  8. No he didn’t get a free pass. He admitted fault, apologized, was forgiven by his victim and awaits punishment for his actions. If Moore acted like Franken did after the allegations surfaced, he would not be behind in the polls. He could be seen as a responsible contrite Christian seeking forgiveness.

    As of now, Moore looks like a raging egomaniac and his supporters look like venal partisan hacks.

  9. “Why evangelicals might vote for Roy Moore anyway”?!

    Because if US Senator Al Franken can do it, Wannabe-US Senator Roy Moore can, too – honest to God!

    For according to MJ Lee, “Woman says Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010”, CNN, November 20, 2017: “A woman says Sen. Al Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010, telling CNN that he grabbed her buttocks while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair. It is the first allegation of improper touching by Franken, who is a Democrat, while he was in office.”

  10. I don’t know why Republicans are trying to convince themselves that Democrats support Al Franken when most Democrats do not but I don’t expect conservative Christians to tell the truth.

  11. The case of Al Moore is why statue of limitations for rape should be overturned.

  12. You realize you’re defending pedophilia because someone else committed a crime? You’re sick and I never want to be part of your evil religion.

  13. “Why evangelicals might vote for Roy Moore anyway”.
    There’s a strong clue in the word “evangelicals”. Is the article even necessary?

  14. Sure, Franken got by at first, thanks to the TV apology endorsement from victim #1.

    But huge damage was done. A NY Times columnist who endorsed a 2020 prez run for Franken, called for resignation instead. Other libbies did not retract their tweets.

    And THEN, victim No. 2 appeared. That was a killer, and it wipes out the apology gig. And NOW, there’s a NY Post article on Arianna Huffington.
    (She says “nothing inappropriate”, but those pesky cameras show the EXACT position of his hands. Fatal optics.)

    Franken says he won’t resign, and to be honest, your man is safe. But he has singlehandedly saved Moore’s campaign. Moore’s got a good 50-50 chance if he keeps on fighting.

  15. Nobody’s defending pedophilia, just like nobody’s defending what Franken did to that sleeping woman without her consent.

    I’m only saying, if Moore accidentally wins in Alabama on Dec. 12 despite his scandal, a primary reason will be the serial antics of the Liberal Democrat Sen. Al Franken.

  16. Presuppositionalism was a school of thought but now it is reality. The end of life on this planet in this century, is not in the future. It is the here and now. These two issues are not about morals, they’re about life and death, literally.

    First the SCOTUS chose the death of this country and then they chose the death of the planet. Let’s have a big hand for the SCOTUS because they are responsible for these issues circumventing the world.

  17. ‘Presuppositionalism’ is just an extreme form of circular reasoning, even though its supporters insist that isn’t the case. It most closely resembles a game of semantics played by school children; only Calvinists who consider themselves intellectuals seem to be stupid enough to think it’s a legitimate debating style.

    Their one and only tactic is to simply assume that they’re right about everything at the beginning in order to ‘prove’ their position is right at the end.

    After it was created by Cornelius Van Til, it festered for decades in the extremely insular Dutch Reformed community of Grand Rapids, MI. It’s the final intellectual deterioration of a sub-group so deep in its own cultural bubble that they can’t even fathom the possibility of someone different from themselves.

    For them, Truth is entirely gnostic. They’re right not because of the accuracy of their positions or because they have verifiable evidence to back up their claims; they’re right simply because they have ‘rightness’ embedded in their souls. Being right about everything is their divine birthright. All evidence against them is actually false deception, seen through the eyes of those not among the elect.

    Anyone who has any doubts need only watch one of Sye Ten Bruggencate’s laughably idiotic ‘debates’ to witness intellectual bankruptcy combined with staggering arrogance.

    It helps to further explain the evangelical mindset of the Trump era.

  18. It is considerably worse to sexually harass someone underage.

  19. Its way past time for Christians to disassociate themselves from the evangelicals who are nothing more than calvinists. As such they are heretics, blasphemers, conduct sacrilegious practices, and are hypocrites.

  20. Or it could simply be that the Evangelicals realize that the charges that matter aren’t credible, no “presuppositionalism” necessary.

  21. Alabamans have a long history of racism, hatred, lying, hypocrisy, *profound* and willful ignorance, resentment, and so on. This history has been evident for as long as I’ve been aware of Alabama, One has only to look at the stats re Alabama, regarding pre-marital sex, abortion, rape, violence, denial of rights, and so on.

    Evangelicalism promotes all these characteristics.

    Moore himself is an especially goofy individual. The New Yorker magazine did a story some weeks ago about how Moore’s professors in law school called him –publicly–“fruit salad”, because he was so “mixed up”; he wrote in his autobiography of lining his bunk with sandbags to minimize harm in the event he was fragged; he was removed as chief justice of the Alabama supreme court; he has expressed profound ignorance –contempt, in fact–of the Constitution.

    Moore, in other words, is a very dangerous, ignorant, lying guy. Nevertheless, lots of folks in Talibama support him.

    That speaks volumes about the folks there.

    – – –
    Author Shimron quotes historian Molly Worthen. It would have been nice if she’d cited the source of those comments (which I believe is a recent NYTimes Op-Ed by Worthen.)

  22. Baloney. They vote for him, and more generally for conservatives, because this is the ethos of the lower classes. Evangeliecalism is just the folk religion of the lower classes. It it simply ethnic. Being ‘evangelical’ has nothing more to do with religious conviction than being ‘Jewish’ does: it is the label for an ethnic/class group.

  23. Would Evangelicals still support Moore if his victims had been teenage boys instead of girls? Alas, this is a sexist issue also.

  24. The Bible has been used to justify slavery and segregation so why not Roy Moore?

  25. Perhaps, RNS should initiate a new term to apply to what is now commonly called “Evangelicals”. The term was an honorable label originally used to name churches that proclaimed the gospel and separated from Rome during the Reformation.

    Unfortunately, many today shop and attend churches that reinforce their world views and do not challenge them to rise above any short comings to their views .

    As for a Roy Moore we should fear the sins to come in the form of the millions of people that he would deny help by voting against health care, denying them benefits to alleviate their poverty, pollute their environment, support war mongering, etc. .

  26. Since when did America become a Christian nation? Where in the U.S. Constitution can l find that? It’s simply amazing to see how so many can be so easily hoodwinked into destroying the fundamental principles upon which this nation was founded. Our religion, Christian or otherwise, is a matter of conscience not legislation. The Bible prophesied that this is exactly what will happen, leading to tyranny, persecution and the destruction of the nation. The election of Roy Moore will bring us closer to this, faster. americainbibleprophecy.org

  27. Stan…….what is your opinion of Arminius? Or those doctrines associated with him. I rarely hear criticism by Christians toward Calvin or Calvinism.

  28. Of course not….he is just a comedian like Sarah Silverman.. It is Ok if it’s just a joke.

  29. Neither is any sane pretension that Roy Moore is suited for public office. As evidenced by his last too attempts of it and being tossed from the bench.

  30. Plus Franken didn’t deny the charges or have a legion of trolling supporters. If Roy Moore did so, he and his supporters wouldn’t look like such dishonest lecherous cretins.

  31. When have you stopped hating America, democracy and freedom?

  32. Until Roy Moore admits fault and apologizes to his legion of accusers, parallels with Al Franken are a conservative fantasy for trolling purposes only.

  33. “Why evangelicals might vote for Roy Moore anyway”?!

    Because they ain’t me & Rex Huppke here. And because Al Franken’s anti-Roy Moore supporters – who couldn’t possibly fathom my previous post “11 hours ago” due to their preconceptions – ain’t me & Rex Huppke here either.

    According to Rex Huppke, “Al Franken, Roy Moore and America’s men problem”, Chicago Tribune, November 17, 2017: “Minnesota Democratic Sen. Al Franken, who on Thursday was accused of groping a woman and kissing her without her consent, should step down, even though he apologized and encouraged an ethics investigation into his own behavior. … Roy Moore, the Alabama judge facing numerous accusations of sexual misconduct against girls in their teens while he was in his 30s, should leave the race for U.S. Senate immediately.”

  34. I admire your “Logic” there, LogicGuru.

    The way I admire ants balancing on a rhino.

  35. And he “didn’t deny” this too?

    According to MJ Lee, “Woman says Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010”,
    CNN, November 20, 2017: “A woman says Sen. Al Franken inappropriately
    touched her in 2010, telling CNN that he grabbed her buttocks while taking a
    photo at the Minnesota State Fair. It is the first allegation of improper
    touching by Franken, who is a Democrat, while he was in office.”

  36. Me like Cornelius Van Til

    Pulled me out of Marxism

    He say, he say “Anti-theism presupposes Theism … I hold that belief in God is not merely as reasonable as other belief, or even a little or infinitely more probably true than other belief; I hold rather that unless you believe in God you can logically believe in nothing else … Every fact in this world, the God of the Bible claims, has His stamp indelibly engraved upon it.”

    Give da mahn a cigar!

  37. You know that blindfolded lady with the scale of justice?

    No relation, right?

  38. The timing is impeccable

    Me smell conspiracy REEKing on Dems’ and GOP’s sides – both

    AmeREEKa

    Nowhere else like it

    And it’s been like this since 9/11 – OMG how can You stand it?!

  39. Not yet for this, though, right?

    According to MJ Lee, “Woman says Franken inappropriately touched her
    in 2010”, CNN, November 20, 2017: “A woman says Sen. Al Franken
    inappropriately touched her in 2010, telling CNN that he grabbed her
    buttocks while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair. It is the
    first allegation of improper touching by Franken, who is a Democrat,
    while he was in office.”

  40. Considering that many have said they don’t care about the charges and just want to see a forced-birth advocate elected to the Senate, I strongly doubt your presupposition.

  41. 1st time Christian a country Baptist myself

    Tell’em all – there are sheep and there are goats among Evangelicals – and there are wheats and there are tares there too

    World & Progs don’t get it – who cares.

  42. When Moore faces a criminal or civil trial, even a Congressional hearing, he can expect due process. Until then, he should expect the same treatment the Right has been giving Obama and the Clintons the past 25 years.

  43. Moore isn’t simply accused of sexually harassing an underage girl. He is accused of taking a 14-year-old girl to his house, undressing both her and himself down to their underwear, and touching her breasts and vagina.

  44. you know that’s an acknowledgment, right? – that David Scott does comment because of “x to grind”.

    Me? I don’t have “x to grind” for saying he has “x to grind”.

    Context, dude, context. Stay on topic here.

  45. Moore had at least a 50-50 chance without Franken. I know you love the irony, but I doubt its impact on the Alabama race. The evangelicals are largely set for Moore, the only question is whether Jones can pull enough of them off to win.

  46. I am completely on topic. You have an axe to grind. Your comments accusing others of having an “axe to grind” because their political and religious views different from yours prove it.

  47. The Defender of “Obama and the Clintons” hath spoken thusly

  48. Jones has stated that he opposes *additional* abortion restrictions, not *any* abortion restrictions. Federal constitutional and statutory law already allows for restrictions on abortions once the fetus is viable. As for Alabama, it has the Rightist suite of laws concerning waiting periods, mandatory “look at your baby” ultrasounds, etc.

  49. This is a fairly complex matter, far more complex than simply socioecon. class. It has to do with education (plenty of non=lower-class, educated folks still support Moore/Trump enthusiastically) and things like resentment (of city folk, of “betters” in any sense) and authoritarianism, ideas like “loyalty” and “the sacred”, and so on. Behavioral scientist Jonathan Haidt has studied and written extensively about these matters.

    Focusing on one variable only does not help advance our understanding of this and related phenomena.

  50. Presuppositionalism, translated into plain English: My mind is made up; don’t confuse me with facts, especially the truth about my cult leader (Moore).

  51. Self-styled “Christians” who plan to vote for Roy Moore, the immoral clown barred from a mall for his hits on teenage girls, are pseudo-Christians at best. Moore is no champion of religious liberty, while his opponent clearly favors women’s rights of conscience and religious liberty.

  52. Not on a religion related site like RNS. Roy Moore is a theocrat hypocrite…other harassers who don’t have unconstitutional legal views about religion, won’t be covered as much.

  53. One of the interesting things about the reaction of Talabamians to the Moore charges is the counter-allegations they are making. They make all sorts of claims about “liberal media” and not believing the Washington Post and so on, and about liberals, but I notice they very carefully ignore the fact that lots of conservative politicians have said they believe the allegations. And some of the folks levellng charges against Moore are conservative.

    This situation says to me that those Talabamians who reject the allegations, know very well that some conservatives believe the allegations against Moore, but either don’t have the courage to accept them, or are lying to themselves.

    And doesn’t that say alot about them, and about how their religious beliefs influence their behavior!

  54. After the first 1-2, the stories start to become more credible. Painting a picture of a person who is a miscreant.

    The man has a well known record of abusing public authority for selfish reasons and lying in public for political purposes. Being a sexual predator is not a major leap in logic from there. Especially given his predilection for attacking people based on their consensual adult relations.

  55. I’d argue there is a much simpler explanation. It’s not that Alabamans support rapists and child molesters, and it’s not even that they want to elect someone who would do these things because he supports their policies. It’s far more likely that they simply do not believe the charges against Roy Moore.

    How we determine what happened 40 years ago is a tough one. I wish I knew how to find the truth.

  56. It’s more likely Alabamans are racist homophobes and that’s their only reason for supporting Roy Moore.

  57. You are trying to downplay Moore’s actions by comparing him to Franken. You are in fact defending pedophilia and you are a liar and a hypocrite. If your god is real, he will judge you for your sins in the next life.

  58. I don’t know why you Christians think being an ass makes your religion more appealing.

  59. Sorry. He’s using the CS Lewis Defense.

    If he had been born a Muslim, or a Hindu, he would have had a far different opinion of the several gods of the Bible.

  60. It’s a very serious accusation. If true. But what if it’s false? False accusations of this kind are very serious too.

    This is why we have governmental and legal systems that are supposed to get to the bottom of it all with a fair “due process”, while protecting the rights of both accused & accuser.

    (I have called for fairness & due process for both Franken and Moore.)

    But, as stated before, Moore IS now going to survive until the Alabamians decide the Dec. 12 election, regardless of accusations. He may win it all. If so, Al Franken’s antics are THE primary reason for that outcome.

    On this issue, the court of public opinion has now taken over all other courts, and Moore may indeed win out in Alabama’s court if he keeps on fighting.

  61. I’m a bit disappointed in you. Moore is the one who publicly proclaims what a great christian he is, that amErica must get right with his version of god, and who attacks others for not believing what he does. His supporters are primarily evangelicals and religious conservatives who are also happy to proclaim their religious bonafides.

  62. Then you must be “a bit disappointed in” Rex Huppke, too, then, for sharing my sentiments when writing “Al Franken, Roy Moore and America’s men problem”, Chicago Tribune, November 17, 2017:

    “Minnesota Democratic Sen. Al Franken, who on Thursday was accused of groping a woman and kissing her without her consent, should step down, even though he apologized and encouraged an ethics investigation into his own behavior. … Roy Moore, the Alabama judge facing numerous accusations of sexual misconduct against girls in their teens while he was in his 30s, should leave the race for U.S. Senate immediately.”

    Don’t you get it? Al Franken’s becoming a political excuse for “Why evangelicals might vote for Roy Moore anyway”!

    Get Al to resign – and that’ll tip the scale – all the way to exiling Roy Moore forever!

    Christian Right knew Alabamenes were having 2nd thoughts on Roy Moore and so over the weekend they constructed the Frankensgate! Oldest trick in the book.

  63. Nope

    It’s the old Calvinism in Van Til – everybody but the Christian is totally depraved – epistemologically!

    Oh and Jesus Christ pulled me out of Van Tillianism – I didn’t finish my intro properly earlier. Just weird Van Til got mentioned here of all people from my long gone past in thought-experimentation.

  64. When was Al Franken tossed out of office for malfeasance or accused of lying in public or abusing public authority?:)

    Roy Moore has a public record which screamed, “NOT SUITABLE FOR ELECTED OFFICE!” and that was before we found out he was probably a sexual predator. Violating federal law and embezzlement should have been enough to keep Moore off the ballot. But it wasn’t.

  65. That wasn’t exactly my point, but I don’t disagree.

  66. Apparently Alabamans (Alabamians?) tend to side with the 9 accusers on average –

    “Democrat Doug Jones has opened up an eight-point lead in the US Senate race in Alabama…” 11/16/17

  67. Nope

    Just can’t stand noncommunicative I hate you I hate you comments

    Why can’t they articulate their dissent?

    And you – why are you here? Don’t you have a rebuttal to work on for the Jonestown comments section?

    Now see, that’s what I meant. Articulate yourself not with these you too have axes to grind comments, but with a well-researched comeback on my debunking your anti-Jonestown-truth presentation.

  68. I am curious about that ultrasound thing.

    What if a pregnant woman who wants an abortion does the ultrasound but puts her fingers in her ears and looks away during the process as a protest. Does that count as having an ultrasound or must she look at it?

    EDIT: Google is my friend: “”The woman shall complete a required form to acknowledge that she either saw the ultrasound image of her unborn child or that she was offered the opportunity and rejected it,” ”

    So she could tell the doctor doing the ultrasound to go f*ck himself. The doctor has to give her a notebook with all such stuff..but she can apparently just trash it.

  69. At least you’re interested in seeking the truth. And you understand that “guilty until proven innocent” and “trial-by-media” doesn’t really work for America. A lot of folks need to understand that.

  70. Translation

    Moore’s victims are far worse than Franken’s

    That blindfolded lady with a scale of justice – any relation?

  71. Both scum of the earth

    What do I care as to uniqueness of each other’s scumbologies?

  72. Hey, at this point, Franken’s actions have changed the national conversation itself, and saved Moore.

    Moore would been totally down the drain by now, all gone for good, except FRANKEN rescued him. Ain’t my fault that Franken chose to save Moore.

  73. So the issue is (and I say this as an atheist) — the US as a government is a secular nation….from a historical/cultural standpoint it is — one would argue — a Christian-0 dominant nation in terms of most citizens. So, I have no issue with someone saying in an offhand way “America is a Christian nation” as long as they understand the GOVT is not.

  74. There used to be a saying in DC — the worst thing a politician can be caught with is a live boy or a dead woman.

  75. To be fair….your reply is not that coherent.

  76. now THAT was much more coherent. I like the ants comment even if I disagree with you.

  77. What standard should we use in making the determination of credibility? Is there a critical mass of accusations that must be made?

  78. Indeed…..I have said:

    Long before he was found to have committed statutory rape, he was found to have raped statutes.

  79. Yeah – “bitter clinging” to that attitude is why progressives lost the Presidential election. Neither you nor Hillary have figured that out yet. By all means, keep it up.

  80. “3 hours ago”, though, Arbustin got it. You, on the other hand? Let’s just say nothing on the subject. “To be fair”.

  81. a quick check of WaPo’s front page reveals two stories about Franken and two stories about Moore. But that is of course only one snapshot of one moment.

    Seems to me Franken is getting a bit more press now because his accusations are fresher. Conyers is getting the most.

  82. The Senate seems to be taking the Franken scandal seriously..I suspect they will censure him and force him out. Hey, Jesse the Body can take over. 🙂

  83. In other words, you just seek ANY excuse to get rid of Moore, regardless of the truth or falsity of that excuse.

    As HpO said elsewhere, it looks like an “ax to grind.”

  84. oo can I get my very own x?

    We can form a team of mutants!

  85. Sp Franken’s bad behavior somehow excuses Moore?

  86. Am I wrong in evaluating you as a troll? What say you Disqus?

  87. Well the Gospels do say Jesus rode into Jerusalem on an ass (or two depending on which Gospel)…maybe asses are important? I dunno.

  88. I actually do “get” Floyd’s point….it may very well be true that Franken (and now Conyers) could deflect coverage of Moore..making him old news. It’s sad but Americans have ADD on a national scale.

  89. Hey, boys and girls, how about we all acknowledge what the evidence shows…
    neither Moore nor Franken should serve in the Senate? mmkay? mmkay.

    This is not a Dem vs. GOP issue..this is an issue about how women are systematically abused and marginalized by a “boys-will-be-boys” mentality.

  90. Former Baptist minister ..now godless secular humanist…I’m with ya.

  91. Do you upvote all of your own posts, Ed — or just the ones you’re particularly fond of?

  92. and who sez trolling ain’t gentleman-like

    trolling the troller, though, now that’s … help me – my dictionary just accidentally dropped in my bidet

  93. Oh for crying out loud around here

    My dumb born-again Christian brothers & sisters in the sunny state of Al-Obama are going to use Al Franken to ease their conscience (what’s left) when voting for Roy Moore in a couple of weeks time

    Some Christian Right genius has thrown him into the fray

    Just as WaPo did recently on Moore

    Get it now?

  94. “….the immoral clown barred from a mall for his hits on teenage girls,…”
    Gullible much?

  95. Actually that makes your point even murkier. You may have a sub-point about the Franken scandal having an effect.

    To me, I think Moore would be doing his fellow citizens a huge disservice by continuing in the race.

  96. so push the button and the jet of water will push the book back to ya.

  97. because this is the ethos of the lower classes….
    Ever been to a mega-church? Lot’s of nice cars. And I’ll bet those nice cars fit nicely into nice garages on nice homes.

  98. but then what does that mean for cuban pork sandwiches?

  99. I don’t need excuses. His record and behavior already demonstrated he is unfit for any elected position. The new accusations are merely icing on the cake for such a reprehensible person. I am merely pointing out such things. You are trying to kill the messenger because you are beholden to supporting this turd of a candidate for partisan reasons.

    You are trying to portray my postings here as deliberate lying or exaggeration because of a personal viewpoint. That is hardly the case here. I am pointing out well established facts concerning Moore and Franken which puncture the fictional narrative you are spinning here. In fact your attitude here shows more of a willingness to avoid facts and interject personal gripes. You appear more willing to fling criticism than offer facts in rebuttal.

  100. Nope

    Just counting who around here really have nothing to say, arguing one way or the other

    All they do is Evangelicals-bashing

    Listen up – I am an Evangelical – Don’t lump me with Roy Moore and his look-the-other-way Evangelical back-up

    “What say you Disqus?” – my foot

  101. Because not all scum are equal in degree. All you do is essentially make excuses for bad behavior with such an attitude. Something which benefits reprehensible and irresponsible people.

  102. Don’t need excuses. His record shows a pattern of unsuitability for public office.

    To quote TheMountainHumanist, “Long before he was found to have committed statutory rape, he was found to have raped statutes”.

    You only support him because he is virulently anti-gay. Bigots got to stick together through thick and thin. No matter what kind of scum they turn out to be. You have far more reason to overlook his glaring flaws and crimes to further your agenda.

  103. But Brain, if they call it a “Sad Meal” nobody will buy them.

  104. Oh, so that’s why Evangelicals would sooner vote for a child molester than a Democrat. Their “tradition” of “intellectual resistance”.

  105. I am describing you far more.

    When have Republicans stopped using Clinton as an excuse for their bad behavior?

    Wanna do something other than pretend wild rumors are facts and ignore the outright denial under oath involved there?

    Conservatives want proof beyond a reasonable doubt when one of their own is accused, but have no problem taking unfounded or debunked nonsense as gospel truth when discussing a liberal. Conservatives protect their own at all costs. No matter how silly it makes them look. Liberals have no problem throwing their own to the wolves if they act badly.

  106. The Senate is not a player in the gay marriage debate. Neither Franken nor Moore, if they survive, can do anything for or against Obergefell. That long-term battle is for you and me and individual citizens to fight.

    At least I called for fairness & due process for Franken (spelling now corrected). You reciprocate yet?

  107. Makes no difference as to why you would support such an unsuitable, dishonest candidate who had a long history of violating all notions of professional ethics.

    “At least I called for fairness & due process for Franklin. You reciprocate yet?”

    No you don’t.

    You have an alleged standard of fairness and due process for conservatives and then go for wild rumor and trolling for democrats. Sometimes in the same paragraphs.

  108. Alternative translation:

    Moore is a conservative, both religiously and politically; that was already “far worse” in Ed Doerr’s mind before the well-timed pre-electoral accusations even surfaced.

  109. I have no empathy for evangelicals voting for a pedophile because he promised he would throw gays in jail.

  110. Christians were going to vote for Moore before Al Franken”s scandal so stop with your lies for once in your life.

  111. I don’t criticize evangelicals. I criticize the corrupt that support pedophiles. Take responsibility for yourselves and act like you have a soul sometime in your life.

  112. According to your religion, there’s coming a day when your god will judge you for your sins and your lies and I hope you’re prepared for that.

  113. Tell you what champ, when you articulate your dissent, you can demand others do the same. And when you’re my parent, you can tell me on what and when I can respond.
    I responded to you on the Jonestown thing. But it is being held by Disqus due to an ill-advised profanity on my part. I’ll work on it tomorrow.

  114. Don’t the ultrasounds come in when the woman is at the abortion clinic? I think they’d be of one mind on the forced nature of it. I’d refuse to sign the form, like the Little Sisters of the Poor, who said it violated their freedom of religion to sign a form saying contraception coverage violated their freedom of religion.

  115. You do have a bit of a point, Doug Jones’ abortion stance is so extreme that even most of his fellow pro-dead-babies supporters don’t agree with him. That could well lead a number of Alabama voters to give Judge Moore more credence than they might otherwise.

  116. A good question — we’re voters, not jurists. A good deal lies with the revealed character of the individuals involved. With Franken we have photos. With Clinton and Trump we have their personal histories and/or statements to show they treated women like mobile sex toys. But in the case of Moore, we have thirty years of happy marriage (to a woman a decade and a half his junior) without a hint of infidelity, and “accusers” that state he was a gentleman on their dates — or at least, had no complaints about his behavior (even the one that claims he brought alcohol doesn’t claim he tried to get her drunk so he could make advances). Of the only two accusers that really matter, one apparently forged his signature in her yearbook and details of her story are being disputed by others that worked at the restaurant. Which leaves a single uncorroborated accuser about whom I know nothing.

  117. So Christians will believe the resurrection accounts from a thousand years ago but allegations from 40 years ago are too impossible to know the truth? What a joke.

  118. Mark Noll is right. Evangelicals don’t have much of a mind.

  119. I won’t get into a discussion about anything with one of them. I’m not a masochist

  120. The forgery is an unfounded accusation by Moore’s lawyer, not a fact in play. There are currently nine women accusing Moore of misconduct. Moore’s personal history shows flagrant abuse of authority and disregard for propriety. His behavior was so obvious he was given special attention at a local mall. All of his accusers were willing to face the public. All have legal representation.

  121. Yep, they are bigoted, venal and craven. Those policies they support involve attacking rights and liberties of others for “moral reasons”. So even that kind of support speaks poorly for them.

  122. Actually it looks like they largely don’t care because he is a Republican. Those who love him aren’t interested in facts morals or values, despite stating vociferously that they do. They want someone to grab power for them.

  123. “one apparently forged his signature in her yearbook ”

    Evidence of forgery?

    The voters of Alabama seem to think the accusations have credibility.

    I think Moore should step down…does nothing but hurt his state and party

  124. I would say any doctor willing to do an abortion would do the very least to follow the state stupid mandate.

  125. My error…thanks for the correction. Looks like Moore won’t win..

  126. I think so Brain…but ‘ow we going to get monkeys to use dental floss?

  127. Your foot can talk> Cool!

    I for one do not “bash Evangelicals” I may disagree with Evangelical doctrines, opinions or actions but simply offering up civil debate is not bashing.

  128. I agree actually that the Franken mess may indeed have that effect. I still think Moore will lose. For one thing, Jones is not that liberal..relatively speaking. You do not get that far in Bama politics with the Scarlet L on your shirt. It was not that long ago that most Southern states were Democratic but very much conservative (Dixiecrats). The Republican Revolution is new…to about 1994. Remember when Ala. Sen. Shelby switched from Dem to GOP..he was being shrewd….

  129. Couple of things.
    He is a standing US Senator.
    Seems he did more then have a photo shot. Sounds like a lot of other sexual harassment cases.

    Does that make it OK?

  130. The D.A. after his name. Aside from the fact that he wasn’t a district attorney at the time, Moore doesn’t and didn’t sign his name that way. OTOH, his secretary years later (who wasn’t with him at the time of the alleged encounter) DID sign his name that way, by adding her initials after she used his signature stamp — including on the accuser’s divorce papers.

    And just what will happen to the party and the state if Moore is forced out — or even loses — once it sinks in that the accusations against him are either insignificant or flimsy? And that their own party leader led the stampede for the tall grass rather than stand by their nominee?

  131. If they think a two-cell organism is morally equivalent to a two-year-old child, then they sound credulous enough to believe anything.
    Here’s some empirical evidence to support the idea that evangelicals care more about votes than actual morality: Wes Goodman. Goodman, until about a week ago, was a “family values” “Christian conservative” Republican state legislator from Ohio. He was for “natural marriage” between a man and a woman. He himself was married to a woman who was the assistant director of a national anti-abortion organization. All the while, several Ohio conservative groups, including “Citizens for Community Values,” the state’s leading anti-SSM group, **knew that Goodman was engaging in online, phone, and in-person sexual encounters WITH OTHER MEN.** They all swept it under the rug. Because they knew that Goodman would vote their way, hypocrite or not. This all came to a head (pun intended) recently, when Goodman was caught in flagrante delicto having sex with another man **in his state office** and was forced to resign.

  132. If they were civilized, kind, and decent people, they would refuse to vote for Moore-is-less for that precise reason: he promises to throw people he despises into jail and hides behind his religious to advocate obvious harm to others.
    Oh, they are only uppity figs, and they don’t matter. I wonder how they would view it if he promised ot throw Mormons into jail for presenting a different gospel to the world. Paul said such people would be accursed.

  133. You know I want the Dems guy to beat Roy Moore for the senate seat – what’s your problem? I’m not excusing Christian Right’s behavior – I’m telling you Al Franken is going to be their excuse to vote for a SexAssault4ChristGuy. That’s not making excuse for Christian Right – that’s telling you situation had gotten lot worse since this past weekend. Before Christian Right hesitating just because of Roy Moore’s expose as a SexAssault4ChristGuy. That’s bad, bad, very bad already. But then came this relief pitcher for them by the name of Al Franken.

    Now, Bill Clinton? That one got away. Thanks to … ? How do you pronounce your name, buddy?

  134. Yikes how did I get in this muckraking around here?

    I’m telling you, just as you’re seeing it too, there’s way – way too much x-to-grind around here against me, you and all followers of Israel’s Messiah Jesus – no matter if one follows this way out of faith, or if the other follows that-a-way out of faith. Everybody’s lumped in together. This is a syndrome, brother, I don’t know what to call it. Post-Election-2016 Syndrome? But it has been a year and 16 days now, and they still can’t get over the fact that the power bloc in America is now shared by Christians? Who do they think we are?

    There’s only 1 word for that to me.

    AmeREEKa.

  135. Brooks Brooks Brooks (sorry you got c-e-n-s-o-r-e-d there, ‘brah) – I’m an oddball compared to The-81% pimping Trump and Moore. Me? I just endure the cross that I carry in my life of faith in response to the ransoming Fatherly love of God for me (and you, too, truth be told) through the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of His own beloved Son, Israel’s Messiah Jesus. And so that makes me – automatically – apolitical, nonpolitical and anti-politics.

    That’s not the Christian Right’s M.O., obviously. But if you think they’re going to Hello-without-the-O and me, too, with them, then, Bless me, Father. It’s been a lifetime since my last confession.

  136. Here’s a toughie for you. Name all the born-again Christians on this comments section, then single out those who’d vote for Roy Moore if they’re Al-Obama voters weeks from now. Go ahead. You have 12 hours. Then explain why all the x-to-grind coming from you to date? Who were you targeting them at and why? Let’s see if your “I don’t criticize evangelicals” gimmickry runs on rechargeable batteries.

  137. HpO: “Civil debate” – my foot.

    HpO’s Foot: Leave me out of this. It’s smelly enough.

  138. “You know I want the Dems guy to beat Roy Moore for the senate seat – what’s your problem? ”

    You were being pretty unclear on that part. If you were misconstrued, my bad. 🙂

    “That’s bad, bad, very bad already. But then came this relief pitcher for them by the name of Al Franken.”

    Not really. If Moore acted like Franken (at least after the first accusation), he would not be behind on the polls.

  139. Then if “Moore will lose” – even after “the Franken mess” – non-alcoholic beers on me. There’s a cheap fare to Sydney on December 12.

  140. Is there a Post-Election-2016 Syndrome here? I was asking brother floydlee.

    I’ll bet you when one day the Christian Right (God have mercy on them) solves US fiscal crisis, finds a cure for cancer, and eliminates poverty – Ed Doerr (sorry I don’t know the guy but for argument’s sake) and his ilk will still do their business-as-usual Evangelicals-Bashing.

  141. “After the first 1-2, the stories start to become more credible. Painting a picture of a person who is a miscreant.”

    Umm, don’t look now, but Al Franken just added two MORE women to his scorecard today. Ohhh well.

  142. Well, if I can’t persuade you, maybe Mr. Franken can.
    Like I said, two MORE scores today. He’s in it to win it.

  143. Present your arguable case instead of Evangelicals-Bashing per the usual around here

  144. There is something else going on here. Most religions and most cultures blame women when men are tempted by women. It’s the woman’s fault, not their fault. Let’s control women so men can do what they want and women will be blamed. Golda Meir once said that that there should be a curfew on men and then women could walk the streets safely.

    I was appalled to hear a pastor blaming Roy Moore’s victims. One pastor actually said that men were more often the victims then women.

  145. Al Franken was honest. He confessed and repented. Isn’t that what Evangelicals believe in? Franken’s victim wasn’t 14.

  146. The notions of objective reality and personal responsibility both went out the window while both Jesus and Mohammed were walking in the front door.

  147. I think you totally misunderstand was what gets non religious people like Ed and me angry is about religious hypocrisy and dominionism, not about religion itself.

  148. He was offering bible instruction, and illustrating his point.

    Besides, I’m sure he was heels-over-head in Love.

  149. Lets see how he reacts to them. Unlike Conservatives, I don’t see anyone making excuses for him or maligning his accusers.

  150. You can’t because objectively Roy Moore is a reprehensible person who does not belong in public office. Your endorsement of him makes such an assessment even more credible.

  151. Victims are victims. Period.

    Any other way of looking at victims is not being on their side.

    I’m on the side of Moore’s victims – women. I’m on the side of Franken’s victims – women.

  152. Moore’s side doubling down for Moore and against Franken.

    Franken’s side doubling down for Franken and against Moore.

    AmeREEKa can’t go on REEKing like this.

    Who’s going to repent first? – that’s what I’m waiting for as I endure this REEKing-rama.

    Imagine Franken’s side prove more righteous than Moore’s side on this one – wouldn’t that be the America I once knew in 6th grade, 7th grade and 8th grade?

    Why can’t they just?! Thereby proving how satanic the Christian Right has become!

  153. Thanks to Al Franken, Roy Moore is going to win, by the looks of things from:

    Jenavieve Hatch and Zachary Roth, “Two More Women Accuse Sen. Al Franken Of Inappropriate Touching: One woman told HuffPost that Franken had grabbed her backside at an event honoring women”, Huffington Post, November 22, 2017.

  154. Franken repented first. Moore? NOT AT ALL.

    He’s still denying it ever happened, and apparently,lying about what did happen, because he asked their Mama’s permission.

  155. Only the first victim, Susan. He needs to do the same for the other three. So far, he’s just stonewalling them.

    Plus it really ain’t cool to photogragh your victim while she’s sleeping and you’re having fun with her. That’s approaching Dark-Web creepiness, honestly.

    Meanwhile, Franken better manufacture some more apologies, and make ’em convincing. And it’s all gotta be on national TV, just like the first one.

  156. This is but one example of why evangelical Christians have lost all moral authority; they cannot hold themselves as the ordained moral scolds of our society any longer. Normal, progressive Christians need to step up and drown out these wicked folks who have branded themselves as THE voice of Christianity in America.

  157. The Governor was interviewed on TV and said she believed the women. However, she is still voting for him.

    However, there is enough information/past examples to indicate that generally this is the truth. Whether it is with Moore or not, unknown at this point. Will note that to address your concern, the UK is bringing forward statutory guidelines with respect to the police investigation of historic sex crimes. Unfortunately, a police investigation is not legally permissible in this instance.

  158. Joe Carter of the Gospel Coalition argued that it was really only somewhere between 35 and 45% of Evangelicals voted for Trump. The 81% is the white evangelical vote – but most forget about that added qualifier.

  159. Yes, he does need to apologize to all victims. It’s still not as creepy as trolling for teenage girls in malls and other places and getting yourself banned from the Gasden Mall.

  160. That “Moore [repented] NOT AT ALL” has always been a given from the get-go courtesy of WaPo. You & I know that and hope to God the Christian Right Society of Alabama wouldn’t vote for Moore’s senate seat. Polls were starting to go against him. And that was the only scenario we were dealing with. But all that hanging-in-the-balance cliffhanger changed because of Al Franken’s revealed one-way escapades with women – 4 of them to date! Sure “Franken repented first” – but only to the first of four! He didn’t as to Sex #2, Sex #3 and Sex #4. Now you tell me how Moore’s supporters are supposed to take that – in light of their man’s Sex #1 up to Sex #666?!

    It’s Trump-vs-Clinton all over again and you know that result! The-81% voted for The Lesser Evil then, but now their inbreds in Alabama are gonna go for The Greater Evil!

    Point is, they weren’t put into such a situation until Al Franken came into view once, then twice, and then this – BOOM –

    Jenavieve Hatch and Zachary Roth, “Two More Women Accuse Sen. Al Franken Of Inappropriate Touching: One woman told HuffPost that Franken had grabbed her backside at an event honoring women”, Huffington Post, November 22, 2017.

  161. And you have the luxury of an armchair to process your thought that surely the Progs haven’t thought of that?!

    Glad, though, you kinda point a finger at them for this mess we’re in including me & my born-again Christian brothers & sisters. God & Jesus’ testimonies are at stake here for us who are nonpolitical, apolitical & antipolitics.

  162. RNS too confirmed it was less than 81%. Around 60%, if memory serves. Article was on bogus status of Trump’s Evangelical Advisory Board.

    By the way Jonathan Merritt has a beef with TGC. They don’t like me either over there. Breakpoint is better than TGC, but both are comments-censorship-fanatics.

  163. The final defense of the hypermoralists: BUt John y did it too!

  164. yes, he apologized immediately and took responsibility for his despicable actions.
    Moore cannot admit ANY missteps in the past or his whole kettle of lies will boil over. And Trump can’t either. He HAS to support Moore. If he attacked Moore’s immortality and vile behaviors, he’s open to questions about the rape of a thirteen year old girl in a private mansion of one of Trump’s old scum ball friends decades ago.

  165. it’s a moral crusade. And it’s one you guys do not get. Abuse, molestations, rapes HARM women. The first woman to come forward, was already from a troubled family with a single mother. Moore targeted this girl as vulnerable and took advantage of her. She lived a troubled life, married, was abused, and divorced (young women who are abused never learn to make good decisions) and at one point was to shamed and depressed that she tried to commit suicide.

    And you twerps her think this is about politics?? This is about the soul of the Evangelicals of America. Will they vote for this pedophile and serial abuser??
    Just for the record, I think Franken should resign his seat. Clean out the whole lot of the rapists and exploiters of women. The amount of suffering and trauma they have caused women is massive and you turkeys, apparently do not care a bit.

  166. this is not about “boys”–this is about grown, educated, adult men who can’t keep it in their pants. The simplest things: respect women! do not molest! do not rape! Hold the turkey’s responsible and it’ll soon stop. Charlie Rose was fired. Outright. Let them resign and admit their wrongdoing and start leading workshops Nationally for businesses, churches, and state houses across the nation about How and Why to respect women.

  167. Spuddie, these idiots you are arguing with are moral degenerates. The ends justify the means if they hold onto power and dominate the country. The Evangelicals in Alabama prove themselves to be moral degenerates if they vote for Moore.

  168. Tribalism is like brainwashing yourself to refuse to make moral judgements which are hard. If you can’t see, admit to or address the wrongs in your ‘in-group’, they you are part of the problem.

  169. Dumb right, “hypermoralists”. Whoever threw in the Al Franken Wrench knew Moore’s bots are all “hypermoralists”. It works, Ben in Oakland. IT WORKS!

    And so you & I moan & groan, Dumb right, it works! That’s it?! Where’s the strategic mind of the Dems when everything backfired after Al Franken got implicated? Heard lately? That stupid Dems contender for the senate seat finally – I mean finally – do up a smear campaign against Moore – He Pedophile He Pedophile. One thing he didn’t do: Yo, Al, quit, man. And Al go, No you quit, I’m already senator, ‘yo, get your own seat.

    Dems are so … what’s the word? Principled. Yeah, that’s the word I’m looking for. Al’s not going to quit out of principle.

    GOP “hypermoralists” vs DNC principlists … and the winner is? Roy Moore.

  170. Actually, this one IS about politics, pennyroyal. Ordinary people just like you and me, coming to a grim realization that they’re NOT going to get all the facts in any direction, from any source, prior to the big election on Dec. 12. So there ain’t no “moral crusade”; there’s just a political election coming up.

    We rely on “the system”, to separate the reality from the rumors. But it’s just NOT happening, especially not the media. Plus, what Trump said about a 40-year wait, and Moore doing 8 races with nobody accusing him, is gaining traction. The former Gadsden Mall manager, doesn’t remember Moore being banned.

    Franken says he ain’t leaving. Conyers ain’t leaving either. The Dems ain’t firing them, and now voters ARE asking “why should Moore have to crash by himself.” Latest poll results now say, Moore is 7 or 8 points ahead.

  171. I’m the mother of the 6 daughters of mine molested by Moore and 6 by Franken. Sex crime against my 6 daughters by Moore is rated top worst 6 sex crimes, while that against my 6 daughters by Franken is rated medium level sex crimes. They all come to me and I go to the sex crime police. I reported only 6 sex crimes committed by Moore against my 6 daughters.

    Earlier I scolded my 6 daughters destroyed by Franken, “You’re kidding right?? You mean you can’t differentiate between a 14 year old girl Roy Moore’s pedophilia and Al Franken’s groping an adult woman? One in 4 girls are molested before age 18. It’s one in 6 for boys. And Evangelical purity culture makes it much worse.”

    All 12 daughters of mine tell me, “Mother Knows Best – pennyroyal not so much.”

  172. Oh, I haven’t endorsed Moore in this scandal, and I gave Franken the same considerations I gave Moore, so there you go.

    I’m just letting you know in advance, why you’re gonna be so very bummed-out, if and when Moore (who is now 7 or 8 points ahead of his Liberal Democrat opponent despite the scandal!), accidentally wins the election despite your best rantings.

  173. Do you think the Alabama voters are really paying attention to our little discussion here? Do you really think they’re all shivering and fearful of YOU calling them “moral degenerates”?

    I don’t think they’re worried about me, you, or anybody else in this RNS forum, quite honestly.

  174. Remember Gloria Steinem supporting Bill Clinton despite all the sexual allegations against him? Doesn’t she sound like the Christian Right supporting Roy Moore despite all the sexual allegations against him? This is what I mean by AmeREEKa.

    For according to Gloria Steinem, “Feminists and the Clinton Question”, New York Times, March 22, 1998:

    “If all the sexual allegations now swirling around the White House turn out to be true, President Clinton may be a candidate for sex addiction therapy. But feminists will still have been right to resist pressure by the right wing and the media to call for his resignation or impeachment. … The President’s approval ratings have remained high. Why? The truth is that even if the allegations are true, the President is not guilty of sexual harassment. … [So] what if President Clinton lied under oath about some or all of the [sexual allegations]? According to polls, many Americans assume he did. There seems to be sympathy for keeping private sexual behavior private. Perhaps we have a responsibility to make it O.K. for politicians to tell the truth – providing they are respectful of ‘no means no; yes means yes’ – and still be able to enter high office, including the Presidency. Until then, we will disqualify energy and talent the country needs – as we are doing right now.”

  175. That is not the point. There are many who will remember this disgusting time. Moore’s followers may see him win only to see him be a pariah in the Senate and kicked out due to an ethics investigation.
    You do know that one of Trump’s first and long term acts was to defang the Presidential Ethics commission. He’s an ethical eunuch and doesn’t want to be bothered with doing what’s right. That’s says a lot about his coming in determined to do whatever he wants, with nothing holding him back.

  176. When Trump goes down in utter disgrace, his perfidy will hang like a stinking albatross around the neck of white Evangelicals for selling themselves out to this vile man who squats in the office, making deals with Putin.

  177. You should look on Barna and their statistics. They are a conservative Christian group but they don’t put their hands on the scales of what they report. I wouldn’t trust some of these huckster/pollsters as far as I could throw them.

  178. CNN had several people who worked at the mall then. He was known as the creep who harassed girls in the mall and female employees who were still in high school. Moore was so obsessed with getting a virgin and so afraid of real women that he tried to lure girls into his love nest. One pastor defended Moore by saying that when he got out of Vietnam, all the ‘girls’ were married. What a pathetic excuse.
    This pastor didn’t know that Moore’s wife had been divorced so he looked like a chump on Fox news when told about this.

  179. Oh yes you have endorsed Moore quite a bit. Until Moore accepts guilt and apologizes for his harmful acts, he is far far worse than Al Franken.

    Interesting that the only news outlets giving Moore that kind of lead now are the ones least likely to be objectively called news outlets: Breitbart and The Washington Examiner

  180. many places have CPC’s now, so-called Crisis Pregnancy Centers which are bait-and-switch anti-abortion ‘clinics’ which shame and humiliate any girl who goes in their looking for a pregnancy test and abortion information. Hereabouts it’s run by the Catholic mafia and funded by a local shrine. The one in my small city is being investigated by the state DA for calling itself a medical facility when it’s not. And it has no credentials for counseling young girls either.

  181. Note the “forced to resign” — we’ll see if Conyers and Franken follow his example. As for the “moral equivalency,” pro-lifers have no more moral justification for their stances than the abolitionists of the antebellum US.

  182. so you see them as equivalent then? a serial child molester and a pedophile is the equivalent of a man who humiliated and sexually grabbed two adult women. Guess you don’t know much about the legality of child protection.

  183. evangelicals get special dispensation from God. They can do no wrong. They’ll tell you that.

  184. Alabamans aren’t ashamed to vote for Moore? They are not ashamed of behaviors that are despicable in any other place in the country. No wonder these traitors lost the Civil War, Traitors to the Union and traitors to the Jesus who gave them the ethical foundations they are supposed to follow.

  185. The usual ,”All sides are equally bad” bullcrap used to pretend the acts of two people on opposite political positions are of equal culpability and bad acting.

    The same kind of dishonest arguments which pretended counter-protesters who used mostly strong words and gestures were on the same level as neo-nazis who committed murder/domestic terrorism

    Franken hasn’t actually been accused of molesting (have sexual contact) any of his accusers. But we are pretty certain Moore has had sexual relations with underage girls and trolled for them in an obvious manner.

    Franken accepted guilt and apologized for his bad behavior. Moore makes excuses, conspiracy theories and weaselwords his way out of direct admissions or denials.

    Your attempt at equivalence is undermined by facts.

  186. Remember these are people who literally are more likely to vote for a Klan leader than a person who prosecute the Klan.

  187. what polls are you talking about? Moore 7-8 points ahead? Not what I’m hearing. What does Quinnipiac say??

  188. “A vast majority of American men and women are deeply troubled by sexual harassment and the numbers underscore why. A stunning six in ten women say they have been victimized,” said Tim Malloy, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Poll.

    “Roy Moore may make it to the Senate chambers, but an overwhelming majority of American voters would like to rip the welcome mat out from under him and send him packing back to Alabama.”

    (86% of men and 88% of women say sexual harassment of women is a serious problem).

  189. what are you maundering on about??? it makes no sense.

  190. IF oneself got banned from the Gadsden Mall, that is. The former mall manager says he does not remember that event, and there are no records. We don’t really know.

    And that illustrates a huge part of the problem. We’re all still operating on “IF the allegations are true” (and some of us are operating on “they’re automatically true even though we have no clue to what extent they are true or false.” Bias.)

    It’s essentially trial-by-media for Moore, however. Alabama voters will have to decide for themselves.

  191. Bias. Approving of free rides (as in, “you won’t get fired from the Senate”) for the liberal sexual harassers.

  192. Charlie Rose was fired by big CBS and big PBS — two TV giants that are engaged in a razor-sharp, hourly dog-fight for the women-viewer-ratings, and the all-important advertiser dollars.

    In contrast, NY Times star reporter Glenn Thrush was put on leave and some rehab, but the NYT bigwigs (including a female bigwig) have already given the message that he WON’T be fired no matter how much mess he did, how bad it was, and how he personally hurt women-reporters’ careers. He’s getting away with it all.

    And that’s the thing. You are talking about consistently punishing all of them, and I agree with your sense of consistency. But the consistency ain’t happening. Absolutely not.

  193. Nobody’s talking equivalency here. But I can see now where the Democrats are going to allow Franken and Conyers to keep their Congressional jobs (and you certainly know that it’s MORE than two women now for Franken, right?). And I can see where some folks in this forum, folks like Spuddie, are apparently okay with that game.

    Me, I’m not okay with that game. Hope you’re not either.

    But the real issue, the only real verdict, is what the Alabama voters will choose on Dec. 12. And they’ll be choosing without all the facts as to innocence or guilt.

  194. Quinnipiac appears to be silent so far. Some polls say that it’s (statistically) a rough 50-50 tie between Moore and Jones. “Toss-up” they say. Nevertheless, here’s what I was talking about:

    “Alabama Today reported on the poll from Sky Research showing Moore with 46.7 percent compared to Jones’ 39.6 percent, with 13.7 percent undecided. The poll was conducted on Nov. 21 and had a margin of error of 3.1 percent.
    That poll comes just days after another poll, by Atlantic Media and Research, showed Moore up by six points. The Sky Research poll could still be swung Jones’ way by undecided voters, but that would appear unlikely.”

    — by Adam Shaw, Breitbart, Nov. 23 (yesterday).

  195. Here’s an Evangelical bible text for you. See what you think.

    “He who answers a matter before he hears the facts—it is folly and shame to him.” (Prov. 18:13)

    Now, as for me, this was the specific reason I called for fairness, due process, and “space to make one’s case” for BOTH Franken and Moore. Some people do the Rush-To-Judgment business, especially in this forum because of bias, but I ain’t one of them.

    No use trying to piously sit in judgment on Alabama’s evangelical voters here, especially when neither you nor I nor them have all the facts yet.

  196. brietbart–gimme a break….
    you’re a lunatic is you think Brietbart is valid research arm.

  197. You are wrong on so many points. Charlie Rose does not appeal to women. He was a gasbag, self-important lover of all things macho (sports figures, movie producers, most often male; political hacks, tough guy actors).
    I know nothing about Glenn Thrush and your smears are just that, unsubstantiated smears, as of now. It’s time for pundits like you to STFU and listen and learn.

    And I’m not talking about consistency. Most of all I’m not talking about “punishment”–like all conservatives with a religious bent, “punishment” is bit with you. So is moralizing. Women want it to stop. Women want it ALL to come out so that it’s undeniable what has been done to women, so that is never happens to the next generation of women. You don’t get this so what you say is wildly useless. Women want to hold offenders responsible but criminal punishment is not the first recourse. If that’s necessary, yes.

    Plus it’s too soon. The world is being reoriented before our eyes. If you want to see a columnist who is in transition, look to Michelle Goldberg who at first called for Franken to resign and then made a more nuanced comment. The number so far for Franken is 4 women. What you don’t get is that this is addictive behavior which leads to multiple despicable acts toward women, all directed to putting them down, humiliating and harming them, their careers, their futures.

    Nothing holds a candle to Roy Moore, who is a rotten pedophile.

  198. they will be using their emotions…not the facts.
    Many could totally ignore the facts and the reality.
    Their facts is they ‘believe’ Moore in the same way they believe a Sky Fairy watches over them, judges them, and rules over them.
    Get a life loser. You are irrational and trying to play buy rules that don’t pertain any longer.

  199. this is why Moore has to go. So does purity culture, which harms girls.

    http://diannaeanderson.net/blog/2015/1/in-their-own-words-ten-scary-quotes-from-purity-culture-advocates

    In Their Own Words: Ten Scary Quotes from Purity Culture Advocates

    January 19, 2015

    I’m loath to make top ten lists and click-baity articles. But I’ll be honest, there are times when the only way I can explain why purity culture needs to change and why is to just quote people from the world of the purity movement. Some of the things that get said in the name of purity are downright horrific. These are the kinds of arguments and justifications and reasoning I read in research for my book, Damaged Goods. I’ve kept them to context as best I could, but even with the most charitable readings, many of these quotes are simply mind-boggling.

    These quotes demonstrate the connection between objectification of women, purity culture and rape culture. Women do not exist as people in purity culture – we are merely objects that exist to help men, even through the sacrifice of our own sexual wants and needs. Our bodies don’t belong to us, there is no concept of consent or bodily autonomy. We exist for men, pure and simple. And that needs to change.

    1. [About modesty] “When you dress and behave in a way that is designed primarily to arouse sexual desire in men, you are committing pornography with your life.” –Joshua Harris, Sex is Not the Problem (Lust Is)

    2. [About young teen girls wearing revealing clothing] “Think about your grandfather, because all of his old friends are looking at you when you wear that stuff. Eww! I know it’s gross, but that’s the truth. If you dress like a piece of meat, you’re gonna get thrown in the BBQ. It’s that simple.” – Justin Lookadoo, Dateable

    3. [About the need for heterosexual marriage and partnership] “Mary had Joseph. Esther had Mordecai. Ruth had Boaz. We will not become the women God intends us to be without the guidance, counsel, wisdom, strength, and love of good men in our lives.” – Stasi Eldredge, Captivating

    4. [About how women need to be more passive in dating] “The night that I first ‘dated’ Bob, I knew I needed to be governed by my value. I could tell that he fit my list and I was interested in dating him – for “real,” next time. But I had really blown it. I had called him … how desperate does that look? I let him kiss me on our first date … how easy does that seem? I was determined to begin to make some tough choices that better reflected my value. That might mean a few less blissful moments but had the promise of a happily-ever-after loosely attached.” – Dannah Gresh, And the Bride Wore White

    5. [About women who ‘flaunt’ their bodies] “Yes, you can turn me on, but don’t expect me to respect you. Yes, I might find you attractive on the outside, but that won’t make me think of you as attractive on the inside. Sure you might get my attention, but it will be negative attention.” – Respondent to the 2008 Modesty Survey, as quoted in Damaged Goods

    6. [About the slippery slope toward sin] “Maybe you agree with this and plan to save sex for marriage, yet you view ‘make-out’ activities such as kissing, necking, and sexual touching as no big deal. We need to ask ourselves a serious question: If another person’s body doesn’t belong to us (that is, we’re not married), what right do we have to treat that person any differently than a married person would treat someone who wasn’t his or her spouse?” – Harris, I Kissed Dating Goodbye

    7. [About being a man who ‘pursues’ his woman] “Chances are, your wife or girlfriend is carrying around an unseen uncertainty about your love and needs you to come after her, look her in the eye, and tell her that you love her … and you’re not going to let her get away.” Jeff and Shaunti Feldhahn, For Men Only

    8. [About how women are not visual or even necessarily sexual beings] “Your wife, though, is not like you. She is not sexually aroused simply by seeing you at your studly best. If you are looking particularly handsome or sexy, she will notice and she will find you attractive. But – get this – her body is still not lusting over your body.” – Fedhahn, For Men Only

    9. [About how husbands feel when their wife says no to sex] “Although you might just be saying you don’t want sex at that point in time, he hears the much more painful message that you don’t want him.” Feldhahn, For Women Only

    10. [About a wife who was ‘withholding’ sex from her husband because she didn’t like to have sex] “Then, through a series of events, the Lord spoke to her and said, ‘Who is supposed to be the mature one here? He is a new believer and you’ve been in Christ for many years.’ She got the message. She decided to minister to her husband sexually, not because she particularly wanted to, but because she wanted to do it as unto Jesus Christ. She didn’t have a need for sex. It wasn’t within her, but she realized this was her husband’s need, and the Lord had spoken to her about meeting his needs first.” – Emerson Eggerichs, Love and Respect

    For a sex positive and healthy alternative to such ridiculous sexual ethics, I strongly urge you to pick up a copy of Damaged Goods: New Perspectives on Christian Purity, sold wherever fine books can be found starting on February 10th, 2015.

  200. Penny…..you lost me at “CNN”. Not that Fox is any better however. You will not find truth on the Tv. Hardly any.

  201. That Russiagate’s taking much longer than Watergate confirms that you & your hero Franken (who at deep state’s behest is making Google, Facebook, Twitter CEOs use their platforms as means of entrapment to cause Trump’s impeachment) are useful village idiots.

  202. I love all 12 daughters. You can’t stand them because you blame them for Roy Moore’s victory.

  203. You & Gloria Steinem sure see i2i.

    For according to Gloria Steinem, “Feminists and the Clinton Question”, New York Times, March 22, 1998:

    “If all the sexual allegations now swirling around the White House turn out to be true, President Clinton may be a candidate for sex addiction therapy. But feminists will still have been right to resist pressure by the right wing and the media to call for his resignation or impeachment. … The President’s approval ratings have remained high. Why? The truth is that even if the allegations are true, the President is not guilty of sexual harassment. … [So] what if President Clinton lied under oath about some or all of the [sexual allegations]? According to polls, many Americans assume he did. There seems to be sympathy for keeping private sexual behavior private. Perhaps we have a responsibility to make it O.K. for politicians to tell the truth – providing they are respectful of ‘no means no; yes means yes’ – and still be able to enter high office, including the Presidency. Until then, we will disqualify energy and talent the country needs – as we are doing right now.”

  204. Well that was an interesting substitute for a coherent argument.

    In the future, please provide links to your cut and paste quotes. Quote mining, distortion and misrepresentation is a common enough thing (and regular practice for many with a conservative bent). It is best to be upfront with your sources. 🙂

    If you read the quote, she’s right. Someone who is honest and upfront about CONSENSUAL behavior between adults does not deserve to lose public office.

    “providing they are respectful of ‘no means no; yes means yes’ – and still be able to enter high office, including the Presidency. Until then, we will disqualify energy and talent the country needs – as we are doing right now.””

    At the time, Steinem was discussing what has been entirely considered adultery with willing participants all around.

    20 years later Conservatives revisionist trolls are claiming the same rumors concerned non-consensual behavior. They are relying mostly on a person who made allegations but denied them under oath and another who refused to testify because it would ruin a potential book deal.

    A far cry from what is happening now.

    When it comes to Clinton, it is not as conservatives allege (to cover up their own misbehavior) that liberals covered for him. It is that conservatives are largely full of crap on the subject. If there was something substantial to be found, a Republican controlled Congress gunning for him would have found during his presidency. However actual facts are of less importance to conservative trolls, than simply repeating something designed to annoy liberals.

    So when it comes to “What about Bill Clinton” my reaction is to tell the conservative troll to p1ss off. Because he is being invoked for whataboutism diversion and they are just engaging in the worst form of rumor mongering.

  205. Funny how nobody is actually giving free rides to miscreants other than conservatives. But it makes you feel better about your behavior to accuse others of doing the same.

    But in reality, liberals generally throw own to the wolves.

  206. Did you look at the actual media sources/polls that the Breitbart snip referred to?

    No, you didn’t?

  207. Perhaps you are just lost….
    perhaps you wouldn’t know ‘truth’ if you ran over it in your pickup.

  208. not hearing any apologies from Roy Moore, the serial pedophile. All he does is deny, deny, deny and lie to his followers. They must be brain damaged by all their rightwing religion and can’t think straight.

  209. they were young, innocent girls, inexperienced. No one every warned them of creepy men in their 30s targeting them. Creepy opportunist, looking for his virgin to rape.

  210. Alabama voters need to do some thinking about how easy it is for men to target, groom, entice, and molest girls who are totally innocent.

    CNN has an interview with workers from that time so don’t throw that mall manager out there. Too many people knew and they did nothing.

  211. Ironic, considering you actually believe what comes out of that idiot box.

  212. You have changed the subject. This has nothing to do with slavery.

  213. It is true that to be pro-choice isn’t to be pro-slavery, but both groups can only justify their positions by denying the humanity of their victims.

  214. You’re absolutely right, I deny that a two-cell organism is of equal humanity, in a moral, ethical or legal sense, to a two-year-old child.

  215. That’s your problem, the phrase “equal humanity” — it isn’t a sliding scale, either you are human or you aren’t. Newborns, young children, even teenagers don’t have all the rights as adults, but that doesn’t mean they have none at all. Likewise the abolitionists, for the most part, didn’t recognize Blacks as their equals, but they recognized them as human beings.

  216. Google “Evangelicals” and “Trump”. They’ll holler their praises and thanks to God for the most obnoxious, vulgar, egomaniacal, money-worshiping sex-pest if the right noises come out of its mouth.

  217. Your statement is rather ironic, in that you just justified your attack on Evangelicals.

  218. That was a stupid statement. Please elaborate or go away.

    The attack is quite justified. Considering evangelicals spend their time attacking others on a regular basis, they would be thin skinned to be annoyed with being on the receiving end.

    They are proving themselves here to be feckless, immoral hypocrites who cannot be taken seriously. Their support of Moore shows how useless their talk of values really is.

  219. Read your own comment again. Full of judgment, hate and hypocrisy, not to mention denial. Grow up or see a counselor. P.S. I don’t support Moore.

  220. You sure sound like someone apologizing for his supporters. You also sound like someone who feels insulted by my evaluation of evangelicals. Good. It was meant to be. They are a very thin skinned group. Very quick to offend others but can’t deal with having the sentiment returned. As you have demonstrated.

    “Full of judgment, hate and hypocrisy”

    No, that would be people willing to vote for a person known at the time to be
    pederast/embezzler/bigot/liar because he will forward their agenda. Evangelicals are the main support for Moore. They deserve scorn and judgment that brings.

    Where is there denial in my tirade?

  221. The denial is in your attitude. Stand in front of a mirror and read your own comments back to yourself. 12 Step groups will be glad to help you.

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