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Is Trump widening a rift between the evangelicals and Mideast Christians?

A view of the Dome of the Rock and Jerusalem’s Old City seen from the Mount of Olives on Dec. 6, 2017. President Trump recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital on Dec. 6 and instructed the State Department to begin the multiyear process of moving the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to the holy city. (AP Photo/Oded Balilty; caption amended by RNS)

WASHINGTON (RNS) — When President Donald Trump announced in December he would recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and call for the U.S. embassy to be moved there, some of his loudest cheerleaders were American evangelicals.

Members of Trump’s unofficial evangelical advisory board were consulted on the decision, evangelical-led groups such as Christians United for Israel advocated for the change, and conservative Christian leaders such as Jack Graham were quick to applaud the move on Twitter.

But the faith-fueled praise overshadowed a possible consequence: Namely, an escalation of simmering tensions between Middle Eastern Christians — especially those living in the occupied Palestinian territories — and American evangelicals seeking to balance hard-line support for Israel with concern for their fellow faithful.

More specifically, the move appears to make an already delicate existence even more complicated for Palestinian Christians, who make up around 2 percent of the population of the West Bank and less than one percent of the Gaza Strip, according to the CIA’s World Factbook.

Palestinians claim Jerusalem as the capital of the state for which they seek U.N. recognition, and resent Trump’s decision to change American policy, which had held that the city’s status should be determined during peace negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis.

Although the Jerusalem announcement was celebrated by Israelis such as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, it also sparked widespread condemnation among Palestinians and faith leaders across the globe. Muslim groups, the head of the Union for Reform Judaism, and Pope Francis were all quick to express reservations about the decision or its timing, which many described as hindering peace efforts between Palestinians and Israel.

Palestinian protesters take cover behind a metal plate during clashes with Israeli troops following protests against U.S. President Donald Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, in the West Bank city of Ramallah, Friday, Dec. 8, 2017. (AP Photo/Nasser Nasser)

But some of the most dramatic faith-rooted pushback came from the region’s dwindling Christian population.

A group of Jerusalem churches issued a letter in the lead-up to the decision arguing that recognizing the city as Israel’s capital would cause “irreparable harm.” Shortly after the announcement, the Palestinian Christian mayor of Bethlehem — a  city in the occupied West Bank where the biblical Jesus was said to have been born — ordered Christmas lights to be turned off for several days in protest.

Lights in Ramallah were similarly darkened, and the mayor of Nazareth — where Jesus is said to have grown up — threatened to cancel some Christmas celebrations (they were ultimately allowed to continue, according to Public Radio International).

The backlash spread outside of the region, creating an awkward geopolitical situation for Vice President Mike Pence. The leader of Egypt’s Coptic Church, Pope Tawadros II, abruptly canceled a planned late-December meeting with the vice president after the announcement, saying in a statement the Jerusalem decision “did not take into account the feelings of millions of Arab people.”

The White House subsequently delayed the trip until 2018, only to postpone it again last week. Officials announced on Monday (Jan. 8) that it would be rescheduled for late January — but this time without any mention of the previously planned meeting with Tawadros or visit to Bethlehem.

What many saw as a religious snub was likely uncomfortable for Pence, who is popular among American evangelicals and often touts his faith in speeches. The vice president listed the struggle of Middle Eastern Christians as a focus of his delayed trip in an October speech to the advocacy group In Defense of Christians, saying, “now is the time to bring an end to the persecution of Christians and all religious minorities.”

Recent years have seen other evangelical leaders highlight the plight of Palestinians and persecuted Middle Eastern Christians, who face everything from unfriendly neighbors to tensions with Hamas in the Gaza Strip to mass killings perpetrated by the group known as the Islamic State in Egypt.

Samaritan’s Purse, a faith-based relief organization run by evangelical leader and Trump adviser Franklin Graham, has offered emergency aid to Christians terrorized by the so-called Islamic State in Iraq.

Johnnie Moore, top right, stands behind President Trump as he talks with evangelical supporters in the Oval Office at the White House. Photo courtesy of Johnnie Moore

One of the most visible evangelical advocates for the cause is Johnnie Moore, a former vice president of Liberty University whose most recent book, “The Martyr’s Oath: Living for the Jesus They’re Willing to Die For,” focuses on the issue.

As one of Trump’s many evangelical advisers consulted on the Jerusalem decision, he has also publicly defended the move. He said the blowback among Palestinians who share his faith doesn’t tell the whole story in a region of notoriously complex politics.

“There are actually Palestinian Christians who are open-minded to this decision who are not able to express that, because they feel they would be vulnerable to discrimination in their communities,” said Moore, who also serves on an IDC advisory committee. “There are lots of people who, if they have a different point of view, would not feel free to express that different point of view.”

Philippe Nassif, Executive Director of In Defense of Christians (IDC), during the group’s 2017 Summit. Photo courtesy of IDC

But Philippe Nassif, executive director of IDC, suggested frustration among Palestinian Christians is real. He said his organization, which corresponds with a diversity of Christian traditions, has worked to inform members of Congress and the Trump administration about the possible impact of the decision.

“We have emphasized (to lawmakers) that this decision might have some repercussions for Christians in the region, especially Palestinian Christians who are really upset,” Nassif said. “We’ve advised the administration to tread very carefully — they’ve been very supportive of these communities. … A decision like this could really set them back in the eyes of Palestinian Christians.”

Meanwhile, Palestinian Christians and their advocates remain publicly critical of the decision. James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute who served on the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom from 2013 to early 2017, argued that the outrage stems from a sense of solidarity among Palestinians irrespective of faith.

James Zogby speaks on Oct. 21, 2010. Photo courtesy of Creative Commons

“Palestinian Christians have always seen themselves as part of a Palestinian community — not separate from, but tied to, the fate of the rest of the Palestinian community,” said Zogby, the son of Lebanese Christian parents. “They have also felt that they have been ignored, slighted, and maybe at times treated as less-than-Christian by their co-religionists in the West.”

Zogby’s criticism was echoed by Wadie Abu Nassar, a Catholic political analyst and adviser to the Assembly of Catholic Ordinaries of the Holy Land who spoke to Religion News Service on behalf of the International Center for Consultations — his think tank in Haifa, Israel.

“Christians in the Middle East, the vast majority of them, believe American evangelicals have crocodile tears,” Abu Nassar said in a phone interview. “The American evangelicals, if they really care about Christians (in the region), should boost better understanding between the U.S. and its Arab neighbors — not become part of the problem.”

Spats between Middle Eastern Christians and prominent American evangelicals over Israel have flared up before.

In 2014, Texas Republican Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas  — an evangelical Christian — spoke before a group of Middle Eastern Christians during an IDC summit in Washington, D.C. The crowd applauded when the senator condemned groups such as ISIS, al-Qaida, and Hamas, but things took a sharp turn when he declared “today, Christians have no greater ally than the Jewish state.”

As attendees began to shout in frustration, Cruz accused some of being “consumed with hate.” The hall erupted in a chorus of boos before he promptly ended his speech, saying, “If you will not stand with the Jews, then I will not stand with you.”

More recently, Bethlehem’s mayor, Anton Salman, penned a scathing op-ed in October criticizing the enthusiastic support for Israel among American evangelicals. The piece — published in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz and entitled “Why Are U.S. Christians Celebrating Israeli Policies Strangling Jesus’ Birthplace?” — decried both the occupation of the Palestinian territories and U.S. Christians he says support it, saying, “fundamentalist theological positions are used to justify injustice.”

American and Israeli flags flutter in the wind May 17, 2017, atop the roof of Jerusalem’s King David Hotel, ahead of President Trump’s visit to Israel. Photo by Ronen Zvulun/Reuters

Nassif said the IDC is working to educate conservative Christians in the United States about how to address such rifts, saying, “We’ve worked hard to message to evangelicals to say, look, Christians in the Middle East are, to say the least, between a rock and a hard place.”

He also noted that anger over the Jerusalem decision was ultimately less than expected, and argued that proxy wars in the Middle East between Iran and Saudi Arabia are “far more damaging to Christians in the region than anything else.”

The lasting impact of Trump’s Jerusalem announcement remains unclear, and Moore insists he hasn’t seen it impact his communication with Christians in the Israeli-occupied territories. But Moore and Nassif agreed that when it comes to relations between American evangelicals and Middle Eastern Christians, many tasks remain unfinished.

“There has always been this lack of understanding between the communities, and that is still a work in progress,” Moore said.

About the author

Jack Jenkins

Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for RNS based in Washington, covering U.S. Catholics and the intersection of religion and politics.

193 Comments

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  • American Evangelical Christians and their supporters never had much regard for Middle East Christians except as vague talking points. Much like their regard for Israel. It is self-serving and having little to do with actual people living there and their issues.

  • To say the obvious, many U.S. evangelicals live in a stifling little intellectual bubble devoid of accurate information, disconnected from the rest of the real world. This bubble prevents them from learning about the complex history of this region or the complex history and beliefs of any other region of the world, for that matter. The cut and dried “answers” they receive from their churches, premised on American exceptionalism and with tortured, carefully selected biblical texts reinforcing that premise, are good enough for them — no matter how absurd they are or how cruel their application to groups like the Palestinian Christians.

    As David Gushee, who knows well the white evangelical world in which he came of age and was nurtured, writes in “Still Christian: Following Jesus Out of American Evangelicalism” (Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 2017):

    “I am not the first to say that ‘the evangelical mind’ has been somewhat underdeveloped. Evangelical historian Mark Noll wrote in 1995 about ‘The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind,’ and he knew what he was talking about — that there isn’t much of one. My analysis is that if evangelicals are best identified as essentially a massively successful rebranding effort of old-school fundamentalism, the starting point from which the modern evangelical community emerged was obscurantist and provincial, routinely anti-intellectual, antiscience, and antimodern. It has only been seventy years since evangelicalism emerged from this musty closet, and it sometimes shows” (p. 119).

    American white evangelicals are a singular threat to the peace, stability, and well-being of the whole planet, and are just about as anti-life as you can get, though they love to throw the words “pro-life” around at the drop of a hat.

  • Jerusalem is over 3 thousand years old..no passages of that name are mentioned in the Koran..but it is over 3000 times in the Bible. Jews are rightful occupants and by history

  • Many American Evangelicals are more than willing to throw Middle Eastern Christians under the bus because:

    1. They are not pro-Israel Christian Zionists.

    2. They are not Protestants. (And as mostly Orthodox and Catholics, a number of
    Evangelicals would maintain that they are not really Christian.)

  • One could wonder if Israel lost the Six Day war, how many Israelis or Christians would be alive or living in Palestine, Gaza & non-existent Israel.

  • “A NEW commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” JOHN 13:34 There are two major influences in the world; CHRIST, who invites LOVE and PEACE, and SATAN, who promotes blood and horror. Every man needs to decide which MASTER he will serve, understanding that Satan uses even religion to promote death, destruction, and chaos.

    REAL Christians support Trump and Netanyahu, and Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Let’s pray for love and peace among ALL men. The Apocalypse is coming soon. REAL Christians will survive it, and love and peace will reign.

  • While it’s always nice to see minority religions supported in their struggle to avoid persecution, one can’t help but note the administration’s deafening silence on the matter of persecution of atheists. Surely if the guiding principle is “freedom of thought” then that applies to atheists too. Alas, no.

  • No, that is NOT what it says. This scripture states that ANY person who has joined the
    SYNAGOGUE of Satan has lost his identity as a Jew.

  • The Historian Flavius Josephus writes in “Antiquities of the Jews” Book 13: Chapter 9, Section 1: “Hyrcanus took also Dora, and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and of the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time therefore this befel them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews.”

    The Greek geographer, philosopher, and historian Strabo further testifies to the colonisation of Judea by Edomite converts to Judaism in Geography [Book 16 Chapter 2 Section 34].

  • The perspective of Christian sects in the Middle East reflects the tortuous accomodations they have had to make over two millennia. They condemn Western Christian fundamentalism as an intrusion on their parochial values and internecine politics, but seem to have no problem with Arab/Muslim fundamentalism that is decimating them across the Middle East and Africa.

  • I don’t see how Trump invites love and peace; Are you sure he isn’t Satan?

    The apostles also thought the Apocalypse was coming soon or are you speaking in God’s sense of time in which all time is really the eternal now?

  • How about giving the full link to your citation first. It got cut off. Tufts University is a legit enough source. I’d love to see the full articles. 🙂

  • Beat me to it! Most Evangelicals don’t think Orthodox and Catholics are Christian at all. If the Evangelicals ever effect their theocracy, the Orthodox and Catholics will be first to the gas chamber.

  • Who cares, they are all based on a false premise (what God wants) is a false premise. God is just a concept, open to interpretation. The bottom line is that the banner of Islam flies over 99.9% of the Middle East land mass. It even flies over the West Bank, the Biblical birthplace of David, Solomon, and Jesus. My point is that in the name of world peace, let the Jews have their Capital in their holiest City. The first two holiest Cities of Islam do not even allow a Christian Arabs to enter, in the land of their ancestors. Mecca and Medina had a significant Jewish population before the invention of Islam.

  • They were basically nomads without the concept of a Country. Almost all tribal people all over the world have been taken over by larger or more power groups to form Countries. This has been the progression of mankind, and no one can undo all the injustices or perceived injustices of history. The “Holy Land” has changed hands more than a Las Vegas gambler. There is one tiny Jewish State and 57 declared Muslim States at the United Nations, all members of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the largest voting bloc at the UN General Assembly. Does anyone have a balanced scale?

    I am part Native American, and I would not be here if not for the injustice. But I am glad to be here

  • During the age of warriors and the age of exploration, everyone ignored the “no trespassing signs”. In the year 1900, there were only 53 independent nations on the planet. Today there are 193 independent nations. And the world keeps changing as we speak.

  • Many “REAL Christians” support neither Trump, nor Netanyahu, nor Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Nor should they.

  • I was being facetious but I would say the no trespassing signs included occupation of territory in which the native Americans were forcibly removed.

  • Please don’t throw all christian evangelicals under the bus..you do a huge disservice by announcing this false narrative. There are many “nominal christians ” in america by their ideology of being an american.thinking this is synonymous with being a true christian. I’m a real true to the Word of God Christian, the Jews were in tha land of Israel for over 3 thousand years. The koran never mentions Jerusalem once and the biblical text if you care to count has 3000 plus mentions of jersalem in the O.T. and N.T. books.
    Many catholics as i was once and left it due to the secrecy of hiding the real truth for years from me was a tragedy from the RCC. Which started over 900 years ago by their secrecy then up until now.

    Born Again and moved on with the GOD o the Bible and not the {god} catholicism teaches by throwing Jesus under the bus! Religion and the law kills the message of christ, christ came to fulfill the Law so that we can have life!

    Post modernists have their own religion..”make up what you want to believe'” thats religion

    the narrative presented here by you can cause many here to not look into the gospel and know it’s power in their lives. Confirming many here into a false narrative is damaging. Noticing many responses here- damage has been done.

  • I was very careful to specify “MANY American Evangelicals”, and “A NUMBER of Evangelicals”, not all.

  • Why? Its a normal university site.

    I’m not trying to argue with you here I am just curious as to how that would be something useful or helpful.

  • Hebrews. were the people in Egypt which were the making of the 12 tribes of Israel- jew, hebrew are all one race.

  • Thats why when outsiders who attacked Israel without cause other than ideology lost their land when Israel drove them back and never relinquised it- “a spoil of war in israels favor” GOOD! If the Palestinians or the arabs came into israel and won the women wouldve been raped and then killed along with thier children making the men watch then they would be killed.

  • Manifest Destiny, a phrase coined in 1845, expressed the philosophy that drove 19th-century U.S. territorial expansion. Manifest Destiny held that the United States was destined—by God, its advocates believed—to expand its dominion and spread democracy and capitalism across the entire North American continent.

    Remember that Columbus and his contemporary’s came here flying the flag of Catholic Kings, with the support of the Church.

    And the Church of England was the biggest financier of the African slave trade to America.

  • To say the obvious, many U.S. evangelicals live in a stifling little intellectual bubble devoid of accurate information, disconnected from the rest of the real world.

    I keep up on politics and am not disconnected from society, but I’ve noticed many liberal leftists in my life can barely answer a politicol analysis or question when I present it to them for an answer! If and when I do get an answer its usually answered in an emotional outrage not concentrated intelligence and logic!

    Your statement I have to contend with is a false personal narrative- you obviously don’t know any christians nor do you associate with any. Coming to this conclusion is quite myopic and unintelligent to white wash in broad strokes! My leftist athiest friend next door knows me and debates me about my faith..he leaves as soon as I try to pick up a bible as if I picked up a can of RAID! He can’t handle the bible nor Jesus nor christians. I can assume you have his issues as well.
    Knowing someone is the best way to dialogue rather than being biased all your life just because your liberal glasses are perfectly colored pink doesn’t mean your right all the time.

  • I can see where President Trump is following the path of the biblical Jesus— sarcasm intended

  • There would be some Christians and Jews, but they would be considered a lower status, and have to pay a special tax like they did under 400 years of Ottoman Turkish Rule, and all land sales had to be approved by Islamic Courts.

  • Palestinians living in the Jewish quarters are safer and they enjoy their safety but no Jew lives in a Muslim held quarter- their lives would be in jeopardy.
    Virus-free.
    http://www.avg.com

  • That is my problem with the Middle East, there no balanced scale. The Jews of Israel are the only ethnic and religious minority in the Middle East with the full right of self determination.

  • Well I agree with this statement, with a slight adjustment — I’d change ‘jew’ with Judahite. . I don’t concur with your first (original) comment.

  • Are you sure that you are not a science fiction writer? God and the devil are just concepts and not real physical entities that control the universe.

  • Satan is called the prince of the power of the air in Ephesians 2:2. He is called the ruler of this world in John 12:31. These titles, and many more attributed to Satan throughout Scripture, signify his capabilities.

  • There are plenty of “evangelicals” who reject dispensationalism’s distorted view of prophecy and its accompanying Zio-philia.

    For a systematic exposition of their point of view, see: https://www.amazon.com/Pop-Prophecy-Exposing-Prophecies-Rapture/dp/1503131149/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515528769&sr=1-1&keywords=Pop+Prophecy

    A sound approach to interpreting biblical prophecy is offered by Augustine in The City of God:

    “We have learnt that these events are to come about: Elijah the Tishbite will come; Jews will accept the faith; Antichrist will persecute; Christ will judge; the dead will rise again; the good and the evil will be separated; the earth will be destroyed in the flames and then will be renewed. All these events, we must believe, will come about; but in what way, and in what order they will come, actual experience will then teach us with a finality surpassing anything our human understanding is now capable of attaining.”

  • The local church is a real estate empire, and it has been able to survive thanks to its land sales.

  • Roy did you bother to look into Mike King? The website alone (tomatobubble) should make one wary of its credibility. I’m sorry, but I really didn’t believe people gathered information from these sites except those on the fringe. Please look into Mr. King. That said, I’m not going to even respond to how the Indian Removal Act didn’t forcibly remove native Americans because we are obviously living on different planets.

  • I’m not sure of your point. In my original comment, I was trying to suggest that you can’t use historical settlement as sole justification for current occupation without running into problems (e.g. native americans).

  • After the Jordanians captured the “West Bank” including East Jerusalem in 1948, they forcibly evicted all Jewish residents who were rightfully there. They uprooted Jewish cemeteries, using the grave-markers for pavers and other projects. They destroyed almost every synagogue. Later Jews rightfully started to return. Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria—the West Bank—since ancient times. The only time Jews have been prohibited from living in the territories in recent decades was during Jordan’s rule from 1948 to 1967.

    It might be of interest to note that the first enduring Jewish agricultural settlement in the Modern Palestine was founded not by European refugees, but by a group of old-time families, leaving the overcrowded Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. According to the Turkish census of 1875, by that time Jews already constituted a majority of the population of Jerusalem and by 1905 comprised two-thirds of its citizens. The Encyclopedia Britanica of 1910 gives the population figure as 60,000, of whom 40,000 were Jews.

  • Jewish history has a constant presence in the Middle East for thousands of years. But the Mediterranean people are filled with mixed blood because of thousands of years of Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Hebrews, Arabs, Greeks, Romans, Turkic people, etc . That is not the issue. The Jews of Europe maintained the language, history, customs, religious philosophy, and ties to their tiny cultural home land. On the other hand Arabs, Arabic, and Islam are from Arabia. Also remember, that Jews lived in Mecca prior to the invention of Islam. Jews lived in Rome prior to Christianity, and that Jewish community still exists to this day.

  • A point of interest– Muhammed said he was a descendant of Abraham, father of the Jewish people, and Abraham was from the city of Ur according to Genesis 11:31, and Ur is in today’s Iraq. False prophets in Arabia had the audacity to claim they were offspring from a man who lived 1,000 years before them, Muhammed claimed to descend from Ishmael who lived 2,700 years before him, without any historical written document.

  • Mythology is always fun to read. Most of the stories in ancient texts are fantasy and fiction, starting with the creation on forward.

  • ARTPSYCH, isn’t making up what you want to believe the essence of most religions?

    Out of curiosity, exactly what is it about the Catholic God that you disagree with?

  • Perhaps your atheist friend is just trying to tell you that there isn’t any common ground since you are picking up the bible and the debate is therefore useless. The bible is not an authoritative source an atheist would recognize.

  • I’m sure you will then agree………………….there is absolutely zero proof that those residing in Israel today are DIRECT descendants of the 12 Tribes of Israel. They have zero claim to the land.

  • No roy, I am calling mike kings qualifications into question based on his penchant for radical conspiracy theories.

  • “REAL Christian” leaders in Jerusalem who issued a statement against recognizing Jerusalem as capital of Israel:

    Patriarch Theophilos III, Greek Orthodox Partiarchate

    Patriarch Nourhan, Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Patriarchate

    Archbishop Pierbattista, Latin Patriarchate

    Archbishop Anba Antonios, Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate

    Archbishop Swerios, Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate

    Archbishop Aba Embakob, Ethiopian Orthodox Patriarchate

    Archbishop Joseph, Greek Melkite Catholic Patriarchate

    Archbishop Mosa, Maronite Patriarchal Exarchate

    Archbishop Suheil, Episcopal Church of Jerusalem

    Bishop Munib, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Jordan and the Holy Land

    Bishop Pierre Malki, Syrian Catholic Patriarchal Exarchate

    So what were you saying about a “false narrative”?

  • Christians do not believe that God and the devil are “physical entities”. What an idea!

  • Evangelicals have their own theology and agenda which may or may not accord with the agendas of other groups in the region.

  • Christians need to stop being Antisemitic. It is as simple as that.

    Palestinian Christians have not done well under Palestinian rule. They need to stop sucking up to their oppressors.

    It is fairly disgusting and certainly Jesus would not approve.

  • What we know for sure is that you have no historical claim to where you live but are an intruder. I am also an intruder living on land formerly owned by Hispanics and prior to that Native Americans and prior to that who knows.

    Jews have genetic similarities and must have come from somewhere. At any rate they have Israel now and nuclear weapons so they are not going to be pushed out by Antisemites.

    You need a different hobby.

  • Unlikely. Are they any Jews (outside of Israeli settlements) in the Palestinian Territories? Are there any in Saudi Arabia? Any? There are some elderly Jews in Yemen.There is a small group in Iran mostly elderly. How about Iraq? Lebanon? Jordan?

    These days Islam does not even accept Jews with Dhimmi status. They do not accept Christians either note the attacks on Coptic Churches in Egypt. If Israel was overrun there would be a lot of dead Jews with a small number escaping. Then the remnant Jewish population in the U.S. would be eliminated also by the followers of Hitler who post here.

    And then Christians will be the next to go.

    Antisemitic Christians should be careful what they wish for. They may get their wish.

  • To add:

    Coptic News: 

    “Since Christianity came to Egypt in 57 A.D., we, the Christians of Egypt, have not had conflict with the Jewish people. Copts have been a marginal population held in captivity for sixteen centuries. We constitute the largest non-Arab, non-Moslem minority in the Middle East. The Church of Alexandria, is one of the oldest organizations in the Middle East. Despite this distinguished history, it is a church that has been under siege since the Islamic invasion.”

    Assyrian International News Agency (AINA):

    “Keep in mind that these Christian minorities, the Assyrians, Armenians, Copts, are actually the original inhabitants of these areas with roots going back thousands of years before Christianity. What we’re seeing is a systematic attempt to cleanse the Middle East of its original inhabitants, this is a continuation of the genocide that took place in Ottoman Turkey in 1915.”

    I am not saying this to make you secure, but Israel has had nuclear technology for 45 years. They take the slogan “never again” seriously. And in November Israel hosted Blue Flag, an 11-day joint military exercise that brought together the air forces of Germany, Poland, India, France, Italy, Greece and the US. The fact that they share military intelligence means that Israel is hardly isolated.

    Now I don’t know about President Trump, but no world leader has ever done more for Israel that Barak Obama, which even Netanyahu and Ehud Barak had to admit.

    Prior to the Iran Deal, under Obama’s Administration, the US has voted with Israel 100% of the time at the United Nations, a first in modern history. Source: UNSCR Search engine for the United Nations Security Council Resolutions
 –Netanyahu thanked President Obama for this in his speech before US Congress.

    Netanyahu told the AIPAC conference on May 23, 2012, that “Yesterday President Obama spoke about his ironclad commitment to Israel’s security. He rightly said that our security cooperation is [unprecedented]… And he has backed those words with actions.”

    
In a July 25, 2012, speech to the Israeli National Security College, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said,– “The security ties between us and the current US administration are at the [highest level they have ever been]. The administration is consistently strengthening the depths of Israel’s security abilities. The decision to expand the Iron Dome system with U.S. financial backing is yet another expression of this deep connection and commitment.”

    Within Obama’s last year, the U.S. opposed 18 resolutions in the UN General Assembly that were biased against Israel.

    On five occasions in that year, the U.S. cast the only “no” vote against unfair anti-Israel measures in the UN’s Human Rights Council.

    Under Obama, the U.S. worked with Israel and the European Union to organize the first UN General Assembly session on anti-Semitism in UN history, held in January 2015. Netanyahu should have been praising Obama instead of beating him up over the Iran deal- which was unanimous at the Security Counsel, at the IAEA Board of Governors, and with the European Union.

  • Absolutely spot on. If THEIR Jesus arrived tomorrow he would slaughter theJews who had the nerve to choose to remain Jewish.

  • Palestinian Christians are in an invidious position. As Christians, they are under pressure from Muslims and as Palestinians they are under pressure from Jewish settlers and the Jewish state. The recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel increases the pressure on them so it is to be expected that they protest.

  • Then you believe that a concept created the world and everything in it, or are you open to all scientific to realities?

  • How do those very same clerics feel about the Capitals of 57 declared Muslim States at the United Nations? I am fine with them having an opinion, as long as they are using a balanced scale of judgement.

    For example: Damascus was one of the first regions to receive Christianity during the ministry of St Peter. There were more Christians in Damascus than anywhere else.

  • I believe that God is neither a physical entity nor a mere concept. Reread your initial post. It implies that those are the only two options. I reject both of your options.

  • I neither know nor care. And since, as far as I know, none of those capitals are contested by anyone, neither does anybody else.

    The purpose of my previous post was to disprove ART’s claim of my initial statement being a “false narrative”. In that I believe that I have succeeded.

  • Not contested! “I neither know or care”– Is that right Father? Egyptians were not Arabs, nor did they speak Arabic. Syrians (Assyrians) were not Arabs, nor did they speak Arabic, Moroccans (Berbers) were not Arabs, nor did they speak Arabic, Iraqis (Assyrians, Turkmen, Shabakis, Yazidis, Armenians, Mandeans, Circassians, and Kawliya) were not Arabs not did they speak Arabic, Libya was not Arab, nor did they speak Arabic, the Sudan (tribal Africa) was not Arab, nor did they speak Arabic, Tunisia was not Arab, nor did they speak Arabic. Why are they all called Arab Countries, belong to the League of “Arab” Nations, and have to live under some form of Islamic Sharia, which is Arabian?

    All the Countries of the Middle East, to include the Palestinian territory, with exception of Israel, are signatories to the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights:

    Article 19: “There shall be NO crime or punishment EXCEPT as provided for in the Sharia.”

    Article 24: “All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Sharia.”

    Article 25: “The Islamic Sharia is the ONLY source of reference for the explanation or clarification of ANY of the articles of this Declaration.”

    So tell us again why your primary interest is with the one tiny Jewish State and their holiest City of Jerusalem?????

  • You have failed to indicate what capitals in those countries are being contested. By whom? Kindly give the names of the capitals, by whom they are being contested, news stories regarding said protests, examples of US and UN responses to the protests, etc.

    Sharia is indeed an abomination. But we are talking about recognition of capitals here.

    What makes you think my “primary interest” is with Israel and Jerusalem? My primary interest is with truth, which lead me to refute ART’s bogus claim of “false narrative”.

  • First…..your “philosophy” is laden with white guilt. So, I don’t buy it. I am not an “intruder”. If you believe yourself to be………….move. Give your house to an Indian. Don’t speak for me.
    In regards to ‘anti-semites’……………….

    My father lost his pension to Bernie Maddoff. I hate Bernie Maddoff for that. Does that make me now an ‘anti-semite’ in your estimation?

  • So what is factually wrong with his article on the Trail of Tears?

    As far as “Conspiracy Theory”………………..what is that exactly?

    Conspiracy: the act of conspiring together, Ex: They were accused of conspiracy to commit murder. 2) an agreement among conspirators

    Is someone who “theorizes” about a certain event in history having to be something other than what the “victors” write…………..is that such a bad thing?

    As a way to probe your level of intelligence on this matter……………Is it your belief that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the assassination of JFK?

    I have a book recommendation for you — “None Dare Call it Conspiracy” by Gary Allen.

    A good book for it’s time.

  • Self published websites which mix psuedohistory with rants, although popular among the neo Nazi set in the late 90’s, are old hat now.

    Especially when the internet started to be populated by legitimate and objective academic sites.

  • It’s an opinion piece by an amateur, not accurately and honestly citing historical sources and loaded with inflammatory language and rhetoric solely for advancement of a bigoted point of view, not truthful and objective analysis of history.

  • “…American evangelicals seeking to balance hard-line support for Israel with concern for their fellow faithful.”

    Oh, give me a break. These are the ones who call themselves “Christian” but who supported for president a misogynistic sex abuser who even bragged about it.

    Two faced has a name now – it is: Evangelical Christian.

  • As the fictional sage/fencing master Indigo Montoya has said, “You keep saying those words. But I do not think they mean what you think they mean.”

  • They don’t count because they are not real Christians and sound sort of brown-y arabistic.

    ????????? /s.

  • well so what? german christians, had no regard for any other christians in the world from 1939 to 1945 either. nor the catholics of hiroshima and protestants of nagasaki, have any regard for other christians in the world either.

    christians, are easily deceived as hypocrites into killing or uncaring for their own kind too. christians, appear to be their own worst enemies. makes one wonder, what is really being anointed-like(christian). calling themselves christian, but are they? because of all their diversity, cannot really get their act together with ELOHEEM and THEIR Son.

    so many only true churches, that none of them can be really true to G-D and THEIR Son.

  • furthermore, out of the about 20,000 about 19,000, were bedouin nomads(descendants of Lot). and the arab muslim population then, was under 2000.

  • So you are saying Evangelical Christians are like Nazis. That is one step further than I would have taken it. OK. (slowly backs away as to not excite Jimmie too much).

  • Nice dodge Father! You don’t get to contest anything under dictatorships and totalitarian regimes. You saw how quick the Arab Spring was shut down. If your primary interest is with the truth, you could start by questioning the Bible, it is full of fantasy and fictional stories.

    Kurd Net Daily Online News: 

    “For years the 30 million Kurds spread across those territories have been the world’s largest ethnic group without an independent homeland. Only the Kurds in Iraq, who displaced Iraqi forces in the 1990s when a U.S. and British no-fly zone was in place against Saddam Hussein, have managed to carved out an area of real autonomy.” —- Where is your primary interest with the Kurds, Father?

    Millions of is displaced tribal Africans in the Sudan, displaced by the Muslim Central Government. — Where is your primary interest there, Father?

    Why do you care if the Jews have their Capital in their holiest City?

  • there, are two tribes in Yesrael today Levee and Yehoodah. and they are the only two tribes that lived in Yesrael since the babelonean conquest. and dna tests, have verified this.

    and since the tribe of Yoseph, was divided into Efreeeem and Manasseh that makes 13 tribes not counting the rest of the tribes of the multitudes of all known nations that occupied Sumeria. and the Leveet tribe is also divided into Leveet and Kohen making 14 tribes.

    the land of Yesrael, was divided according to tribal linage. as the ancient maps for Yesrael, indicate this tribal division. what we do not know, is any tribal divisions for the rest of the multitude of all known nations in Sumeria.

    we can only guess, at the tribes that occupied Sumeria. by looking at the ancient maps, about the egyptian conquests to take slaves.

    so i, find your source of intelligence extremely lacking with extreme prejudiced information and misinformation lacking in actual objective reality.

  • Go back and reread – this time with at least a modicum of comprehension – what I said about my primary interest. You do no seem to have grasped it. It was about disproving ART’s claim of a “false narrative”. That I succeeded in doing.

    What makes you think I care at all about where the Israelis have their capitol? I expressed no real opinion of my own about it. I addressed the topic of what many “REAL Christians” think about it.

    I know it can be difficult, but do try to stay on topic, peepsqueek.

  • there is no such claim in the quran, that muhammed was a descendant of Eeshmael.

    muhammed was illiterate, did not know how to read and write his whole life. and whoever wrote and/or edited the quran, did not even know how to spell Avraham or Eeshmael. most of the quran, was destroyed by the caliph. because it, did not support his dictatorial agenda.

    whoever wrote or edited the quran, only claimed that the true linage of Avraham is through Eeshmael which we know is false. since The Torah Given to Moshe, does not even follow or key on the linage of Eeshmael, Hagar, or the children of Ketoorah and Avraham. since it only follows the linage, of Avraham and Sarah.

    and The Torah, only indirectly very loosely follows the linage of Lot with the Philistines. as the linage of the philistines to today’s Bedouins is very translucent to opaque obscure at best.

    since there are only three tribal lineages, Yehoodah, Leveet, and Kohen in Yesrael today. there is a good chance, that many of the other tribes reside somewhere in the middle east. that, did not return from the Babylon captivity. and possibly more, dispersed throughout the world. but can be verified, with dna tests. since they do have, dna data for all the tribes except for maybe the Sumerian tribes. which is complicated by the fact there were, Egyptians among the multitudes of all known nations. so proving Sumerian ancestry, would be near impossible. so technically just about anyone on earth, could claim to be of Sumerian ancestry which would be impossible to prove one way or another.

  • Yehoodah, or Yehoodeem. Leveet and Kohen, are not of the Yehoodeem tribe. to all you, yahoo (male Jew) users or Yahee, (feminine jewish) users of yahoo. Hoo is he, and Hee is she so Hoo is me. says, YEHOO VHEE(YHVH).

    well so much for male chauvinism, contrary to THE MALE/FEMALE Names for ELO-HEEM, EL-SHADDAEE, and YEHOO-VHEE.

    to all of you, who only pretend to know G-D and/or THEIR Son.

  • The Mediterranean Middle East has been over run so many times by so many people I’m not sure we could make any kind of a definite statement about Jesus’s actual physical characteristics.

    Jesus when portrayed today typically looks European. I have a 3D wiggle picture I purchased nearly 40 years ago in Mexico, showing Jesus as a bottle blond with Shirley temple curls and blue eyes. We think of the Greeks as being blond and blue eyed, but go there today and most look dark and hairy, like Turks. Go to Turkey and there are surprising amounts of fair haired and fair skinned people.

  • So what do you call the folks who supported for president the misogynistic sex abusers John F. Kennedy, Jr., and Bill Clinton?

  • Yup, lots of movement of populations. During early Byzantine times most of Greece was overrun by Slavs.

    When Jesus is portrayed in many older Orthodox icons (and frequently today when they adhere to the older prototypes), Jesus is shown with dark hair and brown-y or olive-y skin.

  • “Is it your belief that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the assassination of JFK?”

    Yup. He was former Marine with a quality lightweight rifle. Plus if you ever do the Book Depository tour you will realize just how short the distances involved were.

    Where the real conspiracy existed was in the attempt to save his life/autopsy. Doctors covering up sloppy work with the autopsy/evidence gathering to save their careers.

    “Is someone who “theorizes” about a certain event in history having to be something other than what the “victors” write…………..is that such a bad thing?”

    Usually, especially when it comes to modern history. Because the overwhelming majority of the time its written by dishonest liars who are trying to further political aims from the former losers. See Neo-Nazis, Neo-Confederates, Dominionists, Monarchists, and genocide deniers of all stripes.

  • and dna tests, have verified this
    Didn’t realize they had Abraham’s DNA. Compared to “who”?
    I suggest — “Tracing our Ancestors” by Frederick Haberman.

  • Staying on topic- You have to explain what a “real Christian” is. Are these clerics that you mentioned walking the path of Jesus and “Rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”? Why would these clerics get between the Jew’s of the one tiny Jewish State to have their Capital in their holiest City? Please do not dodge the question.

    The main factor that made it possible for a religious and ethnic minority in the Middle East (the Jews), to achieve their present status and affluence, free of the persecution and discrimination that they were subjected to in the past are some of the strongest reasons that justify a different stance in Israel’s case. Can you name another religious or ethnic minority in the Middle East that has the full right of self determination?

    Having said that, the Orthodox Jews, Devout Christians, and Islamists, are nutty as fruit cakes, but lets look at this with a balanced scale. When the Church controlled Europe, it was called the Dark Ages well into the Middle Ages for a reason.

  • I buy very little of the stories from ancient texts, as they are mostly fiction and fantasy, and as you point out, many believers contradict themselves and others with limited knowledge from ancient times. The best knowledge we have is from science. DNA will tells us more about our ancestors than what our parents were able to tell us. Genetically we are just two genes, and in some cases two hairs away from being gorillas, and that really pisssses off religious people. Looking at your picture, I would say you are a good-looking primate. I am laughing because my grandkids are sitting across from me eating bananas as I am posting to you.

  • The phrase “real christian” was used at the start of this thread. He claimed “real Christians” support Trump, Netanyahu, and recognizing Jerusalem as the Israeli capitol. You should ask HIM what he meant.

    I quoted his term in my response to underline that NOT all Christians are on board with that agenda.

    Whether any or all of the aforementioned clergy are, in your words, “walking the path of Jesus” would be known to Jesus Himself, not me.

    Those clergy, representing their flocks in that region, have every right to speak out on matters that affect them. Or do they have no such rights to speak out about their own home?

    “When the Church controlled Europe, it was called the Dark Ages…”. Yes, in the West, after the barbarian invaders destroyed the Christian Roman Empire there, thus initiating the Dark Ages. It was the barbarians that caused the Dark Ages in the West, not the Church.

    In the East, the Eastern Christian Roman Empire (wrongly called “Byzantium”) preserved the treasures of Classical Civilization, passing on much of it to Islam and, later, contributed to the Western Renaissance.

  • I have read the fantasy version of the Gospels. Science can verify most things, but they cannot verify the Gospels. The New Testament cannot verify itself.

  • Your assumption is this is a Muslim versus Jew fight. It isn’t Arabic peoples are many an varied. Not all are Muslim. Some, as the article pointed, out are Christian. The underlying problem is that the conflict of several ethnic groups produces tectonic plates that shift under the overlay of religious intolerance and superioritism. Thus what the Koran and Bible mention or not is only part of the issue. The historical and current presence of many different peoples, not just their religion, is what needs to be addressed in order to bring about a just peace in the region. But religious fervor keeps the dust stirred and the eyes bling.

  • The stories in the Bible cannot verify themselves. The Gospel of John is anonymous, Has any historian or scientific studies verified the stories in the Bible? Please be specific and site your sources. I like the story of Jesus and one of my favorite movies is “Jesus Christ Superstar”.

  • I posted this further down, but I will repeat a few examples:

    Manifest Destiny, a phrase coined in 1845, expressed the philosophy that drove 19th-century U.S. territorial expansion. Manifest Destiny held that the United States was destined—by God, its advocates believed—to expand its dominion and spread democracy and capitalism across the entire North American continent, with support of the Church. There were even some forced conversions of the native tribes.

    Remember that Columbus and his contemporary’s came here flying the flag of Catholic Kings, with the support of the Church.

    And the Church of England was the biggest financier of the African slave trade to America.

  • American Evangelicals follow a creed of gain at the expense of others, polar opposite to what Jesus taught. but they are not alone. Christianity as a whole has failed almost since the beginning when Rome made it over in their own image, to teach the non political/rebellious ideals of the Kingdom as an alternative way of life to the traditional ways of mankind.

  • Too lazy to dig and read..you must be a millennial kid like the lazy overweight kids at my last job.I worked circles around kids for years more than half my age. Good luck in remaining ignorant and lazy.

  • Thank you for this succinct summation of the Dispensationalist/Christian Zionist heresy. It is truly a denial of the Apostolic teachings of the Bible and the Christian Church across the centuries. Its hijacking of US foreign policy is a grave danger to the peoples of the Middle East and of the world at large.

  • dig and read what exactly? the new testament? you made a statement that is logically incorrect.

    by the way, I’m not a millennial…but nice try.

  • Open the Bible to the book of John in the New Testament- there and the other 4 gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) will have the account of Jesus. Ok non-millennial..sorry.
    Virus-free.
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  • If someone doesn’t believe that the bible is the word of god why would they turn to the bible for proof that Jesus is god?

  • Actually for many, the reverse happened. Many atheists and agnostics started off as Christians but became disillusioned with the narrative.

  • We didn’t know and have on tape a clear record that Kennedy or Clinton was a sex abuser before electing them, the way we knew about Trump. It was absolutely clear about Trump – and, in my opinion, far too many people thought it didn’t matter. More, the other two at least had experience in government, which cannot be said of Trump, and some respect for basic things like facts being real facts.

  • There were clear records, which there are not even now on Trump, on both of them.

    I was aware of them before their elections. Folks who weren’t were simply not paying any attention.

    Trump’s lack of experience in government was probably a plus during the election.

    As the author of “a Catholic version of Sharia” in another discussion, I am not sure you want to present “some respect for basic things like facts being real facts” in your argument.

  • When God sets His foot on Jerusalem once again, no nation including
    Israel or America will find favour and no religion will fare well
    either. All will have to succumb to the will of God, rather than using
    God to justify themselves.

    25 years ago the focus was on communism. When that fizzled out in the process of gain at the expense
    of others and profit for the military industrial complex, Christianity
    (after a setback of the civil war within compliments of the reformation)
    has now returned it’s gentile aggression on it’s original foe, the
    Muslims. The American religious right played no small part in this.

    It is humorous to watch this unfold for mankind never catches on to the
    teachings of Jesus or the Father before Him. They seek division among
    man, playing the game our version of what is good and evil is better
    than your version of what is good and evil, just as God knew we would
    upon eating of the tree of knowledge and then misusing it.

    God has said the division is between the world man has made in our own image
    and the Kingdom. The Kingdom will squash nations and religions for all
    serve the purposes of mankind.

    Had Gentile Christianity taught that for the last almost 2000 years as commanded, instead of rejoining
    the world of man and teaching a different gospel so as to not condemn
    itself, that would be more readily seen and understood.

  • No, Bob. The two situations are not comparable. It was not clear about either JFK or B. Clinton but it was absolutely clear about Trump. Don’t play games with that. Don’t join those who are just in-your-face lying about how unfit and unprepared Trump was for the presidency and the damage he is doing to our country and our standing in the world. No one compares to his fecklessness, his recklessness, his in-your-face lying, bigotry, misogyny, and selfishness. Even if you think Trump is no worse that JFK or BC when it comes to how women were treated, neither of them are the disaster Trump is in so many other ways. Don’t be blind and foolish.

  • I’d say that if most men could be honest- we all have had wrong motives with women- it takes a man to acknowledge his own issues in that dept. and make changes. Trump-Hollywood etc have their issues- let them take care of it..glass houses are everywhere..don’t throw rocks at us
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  • It does not seem you are thinking Biblically. Yes, God will judge all things in the end, and it is clear what he will judge. The nations, the Jews, the Muslims, the church and even Christians will be judged. The professing Christians who are true to God and will be justified by faith in the Person and work of Christ will not be judged to damnaion. God will also save the remnant of Israel at the time of what appears to be their destruction by the nations arrayed against them. Jesus Christ as the Son of David will yet sit on His father’s throne to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

    As to Islam, it is not the original enemy of Christianity, but it is one enemy among others that could be named. For an intelligent Christian Islam is one of the many anti-Christian enemies of God. They deny that He is the Son of God, they deny that He died for the sins of the world and they deny the resurrection. So Islam is calling God a liar, the judgement will not go well for any Moslem that maintains Islamic doctrine in the face of true Christianity.

    Finally, anyone who is amused by the present state of Christendom and the world is not in tune with the living God.

  • Repent means a change in thinking and simply saying you have faith is not change to the ways of the Kingdom from the traditional ways of man. it basically boils down to Kingdom vs world man has created in our own image. Period. Self justification and expecting a pat on the back later because you believed in Jesus but did not follow His teachings or switch allegiance, is useless.

  • I will stipulate to the fact that you know who you like and who you do not care for.

    John F. Kennedy, Jr., and Bill Clinton were known philanderers, before their elections and during their terms in the presidency.

    The same cannot be said about the current resident of the White House.

  • His teachings apply to the whole world of man. Jesus was not political in man’s way. As a matter of fact He taught not to get involved and to not be rebellious, but instead to live an alternate lifestyle harmonious with the Kingdom.

    Many American evangelicals for instance are political in nature, their hundred year old faith re-activated as part of the new capitalistic movement using a simple fundamentalist doctrine as their base.. They are aggressive and seek division among man, also something Jesus never taught. He said any division between man would be because of the Kingdom vs the world of man, not division of man over politics or material things or territory and the like.

    It’s unfortunate Gentile Christianity found it convenient to remove the Kingdom and it’s Gospel from the religion, substituting another in order to remain active as part of the world of man.

  • Kingdom good, world of man bad. ways of the Kingdom good, traditional ways of man, bad. Selflessness of the Kingdom good, selfish self serving ways of man bad. etc. etc. The Gospel in a nut shell and without the need for pious religious middlemen. The same worldly beings who crucified Jesus for downsizing their instituion.

  • You speak of the Gospel but you have not yet mentioned the necessity of the new birth. John 3. Reception of the Holy Spirit as the well of water springing up into eternal life. John 4. The passing out of death into life .John 5. Christ as the living bread of life. John 6.. etc,.etc. Are you born again for starters? Perhaps yours is a gospel of works and not life in Christ.

  • Without rebirth you don’t get to understand the difference between the Kingdom and the world man has created. Anyone who doesn’t get the divide between the two and what Jesus was saying about changing one’s thinking and allegiance (repentance) certainly isn’t reborn.

    You can certainly abuse Jesus’ Gospel by using only part of it (a political convenience for the last hundred years in one nation), but the lesser gospel neither serves Him or His Kingdom. As a matter of fact it is adversarial to the Gospel of the Kingdom to promote that which allows man to revert back to the traditional ways of mankind like some errant seed that fell to the wayside (see the first State church). Convenient however to the Adversary who wishes to have us ignore the Kingdom that he has no part in even though he too recognizes Jesus for who He is.

    Oh and btw.. the Holy Spirit was sent to help keep Jesus’ followers on the narrow path to the Kingdom. Not as a means of self justification in whatever self serving direction on the wide path that some are prone to use it for.

  • I have to assume you are amillennial in your eschatology, and that you think the Christian has both the power and the responsibility to bring the “kingdom” to the world without the intervention of the second advent of Christ. I think you need study the actual doctrine and calling of the Church as seen in scripture.

  • Never said anything even close to your assertion. We can’t create or bring anything. We are fortunate that we were given a second chance and allowed to chose the Kingdom over the world man has created. Each shall be known by their fruits and that of course includes which ways we defend.

    As for doctrine, that is a religious philosophy of man. I prefer the words of Jesus in scripture.

  • One problem I have with your position, as I have said above, is that you are not very specific about the Gospel of the kingdom. For example, I asked how your view of the “gospel of the Kingdom” would apply to the middle east, but I got no specific reply. You keep making general comments. You do have some position as to eschatology whether you have stated it or not. God has told us all about the beginning of things including the fall of man into a state of sin and death. He has also told us about the end of things which is what the word eschatology means. There are only a few positions one can have. Either you believe that God will bring about a literal kingdom on earth for a thousand years (the millennium), in which He fulfills his earthly promises to the believing Jews and Christ as Son of David. Or, you believe in a spiritualized millennium such as the high churches and the reformers believed which ends in the general judgment and the eternal state.

    You speak of getting a second chance in which we may choose the Kingdom, but clearly, we must choose the King. The Cross of Christ wherein our debut of sin is remitted before God, you have not yet even mentioned. No flesh shall be justified by the works of the law. You speak of only accepting the words of Jesus, but surely you do not reject the writings of the Apostles of the Lord. If you only accept the words of Jesus, which I am skeptical that you really accept all His words, and you reject the inspired words of the apostles then you are not yet on Christian ground.

  • The Gospel of the Kingdom really has no position regarding the Middle east unless ‘Christians’ want to start loving Middle Easterners as self in the first place. Whether they are neighbour or enemy, the commandment stands the same.

    We can’t have the Kingdom meet our expectations. We have to change to meet it’s.

    And yes He will bring about a temporary Kingdom in earth for a thousand years, but it will certainly favour no nation or institution of man. They all had their chance. In the same way many look to Jesus today but refuse to follow His commandments or accept the ways of His Kingdom over this world of our making. A majority even still think they are going to Heaven, ignoring that the Kingdom comes for us out of Heaven. The blind have lead the blind for so long the nonsense has become tradition (just like wise Men going to the stable which is not scriptural).

    As for choosing the King, that is the obvious first step but if you obey the King you must also support His Kingdom, not mankind’s world. Jesus did not say to create a religion or get involved in man’s political strides seeking division among man (unless the division was over Kingdom vs world of man). As a matter of fact He encouraged followers to not rebel but simply live an alternate lifestyle loving neighbours and enemies as self, something no one can do unless reborn into a change of thinking from one allegiance to another.

    As for works… fruits showing which allegiance we take, are not works, but results. However, the Adversaries henchmen like to use that line to get around switching allegiance themselves.

  • I think we have reached the end of the discussion. In the light of scripture, and I mean the whole of the Bible, I find your views too vague and sometimes evasive. “If the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle”. The foundations of the gospel seem not to have a significant place in your views, mans lost condition in which he is dead in trespasses and sins, his need of a divine righteousness before a Holy God, the way in which God has taken up in graciousness our failure in responsibility before Him, and His desire to bring us into sonship through His Beloved Son, all this and more you really did not speak of in favor of general comments on the kingdom and the world. Your views never entertained the greatness of divine mercy nor the wonders of the Grace of a Savior God. My hope is that you will consider more deeply what the Bible is saying and thus learn more about the glories of Christ and the wonders of His love. Truly, the fellowship of true Christians is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. God is going to head up all things in the Christ, whether they be the things of Heaven or things upon the earth. This will be fulfilled in the age to come and can be anticipated and enjoyed now for those who seek the knowledge of the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent as Savior of the world.

  • I’m sorry you wish to have your ears tickled by religion of man rather than the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Pharisee elite had the same problem. As you will.

  • They were all YIDDISH-SPEAKING WHITE EUROPEANS, were they not?

    In 1882 when European Jewry arrived in Palestine as Zionist colonial settlers, they found:

    • 400,000 Arabic-speaking indigenous Palestinian Muslims (88%)

    • 40,000 Arabic-speaking indigenous Palestinian Christians (6%)

    • 15,000 YIDDISH-SPEAKING European Jews (3%)

    All the 15,000 Jews were migrants from Eastern Europe who had arrived in the 1830’s and 1840’s to live on halukka (charity) sent them to from abroad. Make no mistake about it that these indigent Jews of Eastern Europe were sent to plant the seed for Jewish presence on that land before the stampede to colonize the land would begin by European Jewry.

  • By “Jews” you are referring to the YIDDISH-SPEAKING MIGRANTS FROM EASTERN EUROPE?

    Jerusalem Population – 1838 – 1846

    Year …….. Jews …… Muslims ……Christians …….. Total
    1838 …… 3,000 ……. 4,500 ………… 3,500 ……….. 11,500
    1844 …… 7,120 ……… 5,000 ………….3,390 ……….. 15,510
    1846 …… 7,515 ……..  6,100 ………….. 3,558 ……….. 17,173

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem

  • The link below is from ancestry dot com and the owners are Jews. What can we learn from this link? A lot:

    a) The people of North Africa are not mixed with anyone nor are the people of Senegal, Native Americans, Asia East, Finland, Melanesia, Polynesia.

    b) The Irish are of Irish ancestry at 95% and the Ashkenazi are of Ashkenazi ancestry (code word for Khazar) at 96%.

    c) The people of the Middle East are of Middle East ancestry only at 70%, they are mixed with the people of the Caucasus (Iran, Turkey …) and with Europeans.

    d) Italians have significant levels of Caucasus and Middle East ancestry.

    e) The Ashkenazi has not even a tiny trace of Middle East ancestry.

    If that is not what you see on this chart, let me know.

    https://www.ancestry.com/cs/dna-help/ethnicity/regional-overlap

  • You will have a very hard time explaining how the Spanish
    Jews fled towards Morocco, Egypt, Turkey, Algeria, Tunisia
    where they remained for 500 years. Why did they go there
    and who forced them to stay for centuries, right?

  • Fish gotta swim, and Talmudists gotta lie !

    Right, peepee?

    “What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)

    “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)

    “All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)

  • So that’s your excuse for savage genocidal country stealing by sociopaths out of Europe? Be honest, peepee! Your Talmud requires you ZioTalmudists to be sociopaths,

    THE JEWISH TALMUD is “Holy Writ” for the Jews.

    The Talmud supercedes the Old Testament in authority for the Jews. And the Talmud is the most racist, hate-mongering , blasphemous book the world has ever known.

    The Talmud was written in Hebrew between the 3rd & 6th Centuries as a codification of the so-called Oral Law that the Jewish rabbis claim was handed down from Moses.

    But the Messiah Jesus censored the “Oral Law” when He said, “By the traditions of your elders you make void the Word of God.” (St Matthew 15).

    The English translation of the Talmud has been watered down so as to conceal from the Gentiles the “satanic verses” contained in the original Hebrew.

    The “Satanic Verses” of the Talmud can be classified into 3 categories:

    1) Jewish Supremacy.
    2) Hatred Towards The “Goys” (Gentiles).
    3) Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ, The Virgin Mary, & All Christians.

    SATANIC VERSES OF THE TALMUD’S
    “JEWISH SUPREMACY”

    * “If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b)

    * “If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.” (Baba Mezia 24a)

    * “If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)

    * What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)

    * “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)

    * “All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)

    * “Girls born of the ‘goyim’ are in a state of ‘niddah’ (m3nstrual uncleanness!) from birth.” (Abodah Zarah 36b)

    SATANIC VERSES OF THE TALMUD’S
    HATRED TOWARDS THE GENTILES

    * “The ‘goyim’ are not humans. They are beasts.” (Baba Mezia 114b)

    * “If you eat with a ‘goy’ it is the same as eating with a dog.” (Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b)

    * “Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)

    * “S3xual int3rcourse between the ‘goyim’ is like int3rcourse between animals.” (Sanhedrin 74b)

    * “When it comes to a Gentile in peace times, one may harm him indirectly, for instance, by removing a ladder after he had fallen into a crevice.” (Shulkan Arukh, Yoreh De ‘ah, 158, Hebrew Edition only)

    SATANIC VERSES OF THE TALMUD’S
    BLASPHEMIES AGAINST JESUS CHRIST, THE VIRGIN MARY,
    & ALL CHRISTIANS

    * “‘Yashu’ (derogatory for ‘Jesus’) is in H3ll being boiled in hot excr3ment.” (Gittin 57a)

    [’Yashu’ is an acronym for the Jewish curse, ‘May his (Jesus) name be wiped out forevermore.’]

    * Yashu (Jesus) was s3xually immoral and worshipped a brick.” (Sanhedrin 107b)

    * “Yashu (Jesus) was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness and refused to repent.” (Sotah 47a)

    * “Miriam the hairdresser had s3x with many men.” (Shabbath 104b, Hebrew Edition only)

    * “She who was the descendant of princes and governors (the virgin Mary) played the [email protected] with carpenters.” (Sanhedrin 106a)

    * “Christians who reject the Talmud will go to h3ll and be punished there for all generations.” (Rosh Hashanah 17a)

    – Br. Nathanael Kapner
    http://www.realjewnews.COM/?p=156

  • But you ZioTalmudist thugs had been waging a war of atrocities and terror for nearly ten years.

    Who started the 1947 War?

    Terrorism: How the Israeli state was won
    Middle East – Tom Suarez on January 1, 2017

    From the beginning of World War II through to the summer of 1947, there were virtually no Palestinian attacks, even though Zionist terror against Palestinians continued. A British explanation for the Palestinians’ failure to respond in kind was that they understood that the attacks were a trap, intended to elicit a response that the Zionists would frame as an attack against which they would have to ‘defend’ themselves. This was a Zionist tactic noted by the British as early as 1918, and it remains Israel’s default strategy today, most blatantly in Gaza, but also in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

    As late as the fall of 1947, the Jewish Agency was concerned by the Palestinians’ failure to respond to its provocation, but when the end of 1947 came and the Jewish Agency could wait no longer for the civil war it needed, it was simply a matter of ratcheting up the terror

    http://mondoweiss.NET/2017/01/terrorism-israeli-state/

    ————-

    Note the bold text that the ZioTalmudists were assassinating good and decent Jews. ZioTalmudist just hate Jews with a conscience.

  • You are lying again. There is no substantial evidence of a Jewish presence in Palestine until after the fifth century BCE.

    See how your Zionist mindbenders in chief fool you when you don’t know your history. The Muslims out of the Peninsula didn’t do genocide or ethnic cleansing in Palestine like the Zionist barbarians of the 20th century. They simply replaced the Byzantines at the top of the power pyramid, leaving the peasants, or Fellahin, still holding their land. Over the centuries the peasants gradually absorbed Arab culture, even identity and religion.

    Palestinians have been in Palestine continuously for many thousands of years under many names, rulers, and religions, far longer than anything called Jewish even existed, including the last two thousand years, when the invader European Ashkenazi certainly weren’t, if ever. The Palestinians include also the ones who were the ancient Jews, before they converted to Christianity, before they converted to Islam and called themselves Arabs. The European Ashkenazi invaders never saw Palestine until modern times. Among those they assaulted were the true heirs of the ancient Judaic kingdoms.

  • Hi Helen…….you do realize that my comments are in agreement with yours. Right? I get the impression you are disagreeing with me.

  • I wouldn’t call them ‘pure’. Although maybe some are like Paul Newman as an example. The question here is really a Theological one. Who is Jacob and who is Esau. Then of course some of Esau could have a large percentage of Jacob blood — like a Paul Newman. But, from my personal experience, having Esau blood makes them highly improbable that they will follow truth and justice.

  • “Who started the 1947 War?” -You might want to look at the first half of the 20th century for clues. And then there was the United Nations Partition Resolution of 1947; Israel became an independent state in 1948; and then Israel’s admission to the UN in 1949. How did 50 Muslim States gain independence in the first half of the 20th century? How did Iraq become an independent Arab State in 1932, when the majority were Persians, Assyrians, Turkmen, Shabakis, Yazidis, Armenians, Mandeans, Circassians, and Kawliya?

    In the year 1900, there were only 53 independent states on the planet, and today there 193 independent states. One of the tiniest one’s is Israel. Are you holding the very same standard for independence to all current states? Please do not dodge the question of balance.

  • Neither did Muhammad, who claimed that he was a direct descendent of Abraham, yet one tiny Jewish State lives an 57 declared Muslim States live, all members of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation.

  • You’re babbling nonsensically around the point, that everything the sociopathic ZioTalmudists have in Palestine is stolen, a myriad of mitzvahs to their Satanic god prescribed by the evilly written Talmud.

    * What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)

    * “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)

    * “All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)

    * “The ‘goyim’ are not humans. They are beasts.” (Baba Mezia 114b)

    * “Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)

    – Br. Nathanael Kapner
    http://www.realjewnews.COM/?p=156

    —————–

    How have the Jews managed to keep teachings of this sort concealed from the Gentiles among whom they live? The truth of the matter is that they have not always been able to do so. Luther was not the only Christian scholar who learned Hebrew, peered into the Talmud, and was horrified by what he saw. Sometimes the Jews were able to bribe the Christian authorities to overlook such things, but throughout the later Middle Ages there were prohibitions and burnings of talmudic literature by outraged popes and bishops. The Jews developed a clever system of double bookkeeping to circumvent such “persecution”. They modified or deleted the offending passages from new editions of the Talmud, and they made up a separate compendium — Talmudic Omissions, or in Hebrew Hesronot Shas — which circulated surreptitiously among the rabbis. In Israel today, feeling cocky enough to dispense with most such deceptions, the Jews are putting the passages which formerly had been omitted or modified back into the latest editions of the Talmud or the Shulhan ‘Arukh in their original form. They are still careful with translations into Gentile tongues, however. Professor Shahak gives an example:

    “In 1962 a part of the Maimonidean Code … the so-called Book of Knowledge, which contains the most basic rules of Jewish faith and practice, was published in Jerusalem in a bilingual edition, with the English translation facing the Hebrew text. The latter has been restored to its original purity, and the command to exterminate Jewish infidels appears in it in full: “It is a duty to exterminate them with one’s own hands.” In the English translation this is somewhat softened to: “It is a duty to take active measures to destroy them.” But then the Hebrew text goes on to specify the prime examples of “infidels”who must be exterminated: “Such as Jesus of Nazareth and his pupils, and Tzadoqand Baitos [the founders of the Sadducean sect] and their pupils, may the name of the wicked rot.” Not one word of this appears in the English text on the facing page (78a). And, even more significant, in spite of the wide circulation of this book among scholars in the English-speaking countries, not one of them has, as far as I know, protested against this glaring deception.”

    Israel Shahak is a rare Jew indeed, and his book is essential reading for anyone interested in the problem of the Jews.

    Professor Israel Shahak about Jewish “Religion”
    Jewish History, Jewish Religion
    The Weight of Three Thousand Years http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jewhis.htm

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