President-elect Donald Trump's nominee for U.S. Attorney General, Senator Jeff Sessions (R-AL) meets with the Senate Judiciary Committee chair Senator Charles Grassley (R-IA) (not pictured) on Capitol Hill in Washington, U.S., on November 29, 2016. Photo courtesy of Reuters/Gary Cameron

Liberals run risk in weaponizing church discipline against Sessions

Attorney General Jeff Sessions visits San Diego and addresses the media during a news conference at Friendship Park just south of Imperial Beach on the border between the United States and Mexico. Photo by Mani Albrecht/U.S. Customs and Border Protection


 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

(RNS) — In the middle of the storm of outrage at the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” policy, by which parents accused of crossing the U.S.-Mexico border illegally were being separated from their children, a group of United Methodist clergy and laypeople took a step last week that other outraged Americans of faith (and no faith at all) could only dream of: They asked the denomination to spiritually sanction one of its members, Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

This is stunning on two fronts. Obviously, it captures the magnitude of liberals’ disgust at the Trump administration policies, particularly their ire at seeing Sessions cite the Bible to defend the policy. Secondly, it invokes a curious and potentially unwise invocation of church discipline.

Sessions has faced a crescendo of criticism since last week, when he read from the New Testament’s Letter to the Romans, in which the Apostle Paul charged, "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities.”

Faith groups led the condemnation roughly in proportion to their relative alignment with or opposition to the president.

With few exceptions, white evangelicals lamented the policy of separating children from their parents but generally did not direct their criticisms at the administration. The Catholic bishops deplored this policy and another one that forbids rape victims from seeking asylum, adding to their long string of sharp rebukes of the Trump administration.

Liberal Protestants, both black and majority-white, have spoken most strongly. President Trump won the votes of white mainline Protestants by 11 points in 2016, but by and large Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Episcopalians support progressive policies, and at the level of their denominational elites are very liberal.

Last Friday (June 15), the Rev. Susan Henry-Crowe, general secretary of the UMC’s General Board of Church & Society, issued a statement calling Sessions’ defense of the policies and, in particular, his invocation of Romans 13 in its defense, “a shocking violation of the spirit of the gospel.”

This was a strong official condemnation, one that falls within Henry-Crowe’s purview while not speaking for the church agency she leads — let alone the entire denomination.

The letter of complaint against Sessions, signed by some 600 of his fellow Methodists and sent in accordance with the denomination’s Book of Discipline, on the other hand, is unprecedented. Church polity experts cited in news reports could recall no parallel in 50 years of United Methodist history.

It far exceeds a 2003 effort in which more than 100 United Methodists signed an ad in Christian Century magazine calling on President George W. Bush, also a United Methodist, to repent of his foreign and domestic policies.

That action, which included seven bishops, was widely panned because it overrepresented theological liberals in the denomination, including some who denied the historicity of the Resurrection and even the divinity of Christ.

U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions speaks at the National Sheriffs' Association convention in New Orleans on June 18, 2018. (AP Photo/Gerald Herbert)


 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

This week’s ecclesial charges against Sessions go even further, officially asking for an intervention and possible censure of a longtime United Methodist layman.

But, as with the anti-Bush ad 15 years ago, the church complaint against Sessions reveals more about the signatories than about him.

It’s worth noting that, while many UMC bishops have spoken out in other ways, none signed the complaint. Among the 600 who signed the letter, a disproportionate number are from the denomination’s Western Jurisdiction, an area that is geographically vast, numerically small and overwhelmingly liberal.

The sudden passion for church discipline among political liberals is a surprise, especially as progressive United Methodists have railed against the use of letters of complaint against clergy who have solemnized same-sex marriages in violation of church law.

The complaint is indicative of United Methodists’ anger and frustration that, writ large, has the denomination hurtling toward schism.

They have seen their church’s laws used before reconciliation had been fully tried. Now, these same liberals, unwillingly schooled at fighting over marriage and sexuality, risk weaponizing church discipline for all manner of political fights. In this polarized era, it risks dividing the denomination even more.

I suppose I should say that it is invigorating to see a renewed concern about sin on the religious left. While all Christians affirm sin as a category, conservatives and liberals disagree about the meaning and manifestations of sin. Liberals see social and collective sin in systemic injustices to a degree that conservatives often do not. Conservatives have an easier time declaring that biblically or ecclesiastically forbidden expressions of sexuality are, in fact, sins.

But this attempt to rein in Sessions is not really about sin in either sense. It’s a sign that the church and the nation are exhausted by the immigration debate and perhaps more by a party system that is unwilling to address our incoherent and sometimes cruel policies.

As such, the liberals' new-fashioned commitment to church discipline is shortsighted and likely to backfire. The hammer you rediscover as powerful today could be in someone else’s hands tomorrow.

Sessions must face on his own the question of why has he prostrated himself before Trump in ways that jeopardize his commitments to Christian teaching and human decency. I doubt that the introspection Sessions needs will come from liberals or any religious denomination.

Acquiescence to Trumpism is not yet a heresy in American Christianity. If it were, the churches would be even emptier than they already are.

(Jacob Lupfer, a frequent commentator on religion and politics, is a writer and consultant in Baltimore. His website is www.jacoblupfer.com. Follow him on Twitter at @jlupf. The views expressed in this commentary do not necessarily represent those of Religion News Service.)

Comments

  1. If it’s okay to torpedo AG Sessions using the Methodist Book Of Discipline, then it’s 100 times okay to torpedo Bishop Oliveto using the very same book, 100 times faster. The End.

  2. This request for discipline was a publicity stunt, no more, no less.

    It has roughly the same chance of success as a snowball has of spending a day in a blast furnace.

    Now, Jeff Sessions would have a better chance of having them disciplined for this stunt by simply pointing to the Book of Discipline.

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/foundational-documents

    “These articles became the basic standards for Christian belief in the Methodist church in North America. First published in the church’s Book of Discipline in 1790, the Articles of Religion have continued to be part of the church’s official statement of belief.”

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church

    “Of the Duty of Christians to the Civil Authority”

    “It is the duty of all Christians, and especially of all Christian ministers, to observe and obey the laws and commands of the governing or supreme authority of the country of which they are citizens or subjects or in which they reside, and to use all laudable means to encourage and enjoin obedience to the powers that be.”

    which is the position AG Sessions took and enunciated.

  3. There are children being taken from their parents with no plan to reunite them.

    All living former first ladies have expressed outrage as this madness.

    At what point do we remind our famous members that we are a Church of God and not a do as you will gathering of hedonists?

  4. Using church “discipline” to punish errant politicians has been done before, e.g. when certain right-wing Catholic bishops refused to administer holy communion to pro-choice Catholic politicians.

  5. Seeking to invoke church discipline for individuals’ political positions, even those taken by officials and politicians, has got to be high on the list of dumb ideas. The Methodists will likely never follow though with this against Sessions. Even it they did, he might just join a more conservative denomination and become another crazy religious rallying cry for every Evangelical nut in the country. “Sessions is a Spiritual Hero”. You can just hear it now.

  6. But only if it is the law which apparently is not that simple And not for those who are asylum seekers who are entitled to hearings not criminal prosecution. Not that I agree with official church action but this does not not meet the standard of violating the laws of the country.

  7. There are no doubt some United Methodists like Sessions and Jacob Lufer who absolutely support physically ripping babies and children out of their mother’s arms and putting them in cages in a detention camp. They claim that Jesus would support such an action imprisoning innocent children. And lots of their fellow Evangelicals support it. No one’s immune to succumbing to evil and justifying it. History is littered with examples of that, and Christians are certainly not exempt.

  8. What a load of hypocritical bull [email protected]#t by (especially) the UMC…a Church I only recently became an official member of. This, along with other recent news events concerning ssm and even gender neutral language, have left me wondering if I made the right choice to join this church.

    This kind of action would be much more credible if they take the same actions against politicians who, say vote in favor of abortion, of if they were to initiate this kind of action against Obama and members of his administration who did the same things. They actually placed children with human traffickers. (See criminal indictment).

  9. There is no basis in the Book of Discipline for this stunt.

  10. From what I understand only those immigrants or asylum seekers who cross illegally into the US are arrested.

  11. Prescinding for a moment from the media-invented “physically ripping babies and children out of their mother’s arms and putting them in cages” propaganda, the only question is whether Attorney General Jeffrey Sessions was in violation of anything punishable in the United Methodist Book of Discipline.

    It appears on its face that the contrary is true:

    “Of the Duty of Christians to the Civil Authority”

    “It is the duty of all Christians, and especially of all Christian ministers, to observe and obey the laws and commands of the governing or supreme authority of the country of which they are citizens or subjects or in which they reside, and to use all laudable means to encourage and enjoin obedience to the powers that be.”

    which is the position AG Sessions took, enunciated, and acted upon.

    Case dismissed.

  12. The few orthodox Catholic bishops who have refused the Eucharist to pro-abortion politicians were acting consistent with both their own denomination’s teachings and its Canon Law:

    “Canon 915 Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion.“

    rather than being “right-wing”.

    The differences, however, between Catholic and Methodist polity make clear this is no precedence for the Methodists.

    The Catholic Church is intrinsically hierarchical, with genuine governing and judicial authority exercised by its episcopate.

    The Methodists’ bishops are supervisors who serve a fixed term and differ not a whit in ordination, authority, or spiritual governance from the ranks of the ministers from which they are selected.

    The Catholic Church has a clearly defined body of belief, implemented through a clear structured Code of Canon Law.

    It believes that abortion is an abomination contrary to the law of God, and it provides severe punishments including automatic excommunication for participants in abortions.

    The Methodists have a considerably less defined body of belief, none of which precludes following the law and the lawful orders of a superior. To the contrary, its Book of Discipline includes this inheritance from the Anglican Articles of Religion:

    “It is the duty of all Christians, and especially of all Christian ministers, to observe and obey the laws and commands of the governing or supreme authority of the country of which they are citizens or subjects or in which they reside, and to use all laudable means to encourage and enjoin obedience to the powers that be.”

    If the Methodists are smart they’ll file this complaint in the circular file through an administrative ruling. It was clearly a publicity stunt.

    If they really wish to make a point, they ought to censure in some way each and every signatory to it so that this does not become de rigeur.

  13. Oh FFS, churches have been weaponizing internalinternsl discipline and rules in favor of conservative causes for decades. You complain because the sane actions are starting in more liberal denominations? Give me a break. This is typical conservative Christian hypocrisy. Propriety, morals and ethics are for everyone else, never themselves.

  14. Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy of this article. You have made it clear that abusing church rules and discipline has been a regular habit of conservative denominations for a long time. Even though you didn’t really intend that message. 🙂

  15. Um, churches you like have been pulling that crap for decades. It’s not reciprocity you are threatening, it is just their standard operating procedure.

  16. Specifically what “church rules and discipline” did Jeffrey Sessions, a United Methodist, abuse?

    Take your time.

  17. And what “crap” is that?

    Take your time.

  18. Except asylum seekers are actually legal aliens until determined otherwise.

    We are treating these people worse than felons, POWs and illegal combatants.

    I find it ironic we are treating people seeking a better life and to contribute to the nation worse than we do murderers and foreign nationals who intentionally tried to kill US citizens.

  19. Do share with us every incident in one denomination – take a big target, the Southern Baptist Convention – “weaponizing internalintternsl (sic) discipline and rules in favor of conservative causes” you can cite.

    Take your time.

  20. Those who enter the country outside of a staffed border crossing have entered the country illegally and are by definition “illegal aliens”.

    Requesting asylum afterwards does not remedy the offense.

    For those seeking a better life, there is actually a formal immigration process:

    https://www.wikihow.com/Immigrate-Into-the-United-States-Permanently

    Read it. Ask if you have any questions.

  21. Hmm. That reminds me.
    You’ve seen that cutesy, iconic Time Magazine cover portrait this week of a crying, innocent little Honduran girl, supposedly separated from her parents, juxtaposed against a villainous, towering President Trump?

    FAKE. BUSTED. LIBBIE SNOW JOB. (AGAIN.)

    The Border Patrol ‘fessed up today. The little girl was with her mother at the border and was NEVER separated.

  22. Where do the Methodists draw the line? Isn’t that what all the recent fuss is about? Whether it is over Jeff Sessions membership, same sex marriage, LGBT rights, immigrant rights, abortion rights, etc.

    If you don’t stand for something. what do you stand for?

    I think this is what the Methodist church is trying to sort out. If it leads to schism that isn’t a bad thing. Let Jeff Sessions find a church more to his liking. It won’t hurt the Methodist church to lose him. It does hurt the church to retain folks like him by looking the other way and ignoring his actions.

  23. Funny again, Mr. Lupfer.

    How many complaints were there when the hyper conservatives in the Methodist church were attacking gay friendly ministers? How much concern was there when the Baptists were busy purging anyone who wasn’t to the right of Atilla the Hun? What about those Catholic teachers who made the mistake of breathing while gay

  24. In order to comprehend your comment, we need some definitions. Based on your consistent positions of the past, I propose these:

    hyper conservative – anyone who opposes what you want when you want

    attacking – opposing what you want when you want

    purging – defining what is, and is not, within the lines in a particular denomination

    Atilla the Hun – Moses, Jesus Christ, or anyone else who purports there is an eternal law

    breathing while gay – openly opposing a church’s teachings

    Do carry on.

    I know you will.

  25. Apparently Jeffrey Sessions is in a church to his liking.

    That’s why he’s there.

    Since the only grounds for disciplining a Methodist must be in the Book of Discipline, and there are none, there is nothing to look the other way from.

  26. Leave it to Christians to take a debate about child concentration camps and make it about gay marriage and abortion instead.

  27. More Pizzagate crap from Christians — unsurprising in the least. It’s too bad these children aren’t being detained in the basement of a pizza shop that has no basement.

  28. You are dismissed, Bob. Get off the internet.

  29. This why Christianity is going the way of the dinosaur. Goodbye, and good riddance.

  30. When United Methodists take a serious position on our ongoing slaughter of babies, I’ll take seriously any concern they might have for the children of illegal immigrants.

  31. “The hammer you rediscover as powerful today could be in someone else’s hands tomorrow.”

  32. There is no basis in reality for Christianity.

  33. WHACK! WHACK! WHACK! There again our typical Christian poster BobbyJoJack Arnzen-Carioca takes more snide and nasty swipes at a Ben.

  34. THUMP! Snide trickster BobbyJoJack Arnzen Carioca slips in another sarcastic jab.

  35. Already done, BobbyJo. You can exit any time now, since you can’t handle the discussion. Don’t take your time.

  36. Just BobbyJoJack Arnzen Carioca making excuses for his vicious, bigoted cult again.

  37. “Bob Arnzen”, you are all “crap”, all the time.

    Exit now. Don’t take your time.

  38. Babies aren’t being killed in abortion. Babies are born.

    Babies are however being ripped from their parents and thrown in government sanctioned concentration camps. All with the approval of people who talk of “family values” and claim to be “pro life”.

    That being said you are not criticizing the type of action of the church, just the cause it is directed against.

  39. No link and a penchant for repeating long debunked garbage means there is no reason to believe you are telling the truth here.

  40. So, they shouldn’t speak up against blatant evil because it would be “too political”? Funny how that was never a concern all the OTHER times these churches have meddled in politics.

  41. Oh please, Spuddie. Is your Google App disabled again? And tell your friend Charlotte she better start doing HER homework too. You atheists are an illiterate MESS!!

    “In an interview with CBS News, Border Patrol agent Carlos Ruiz, who was among the first to encounter the mother and her daughter at the border in Texas, said the image had been used to symbolize a policy but ‘that was not the case in this picture.'”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/22/the-crying-honduran-girl-on-the-cover-of-time-was-not-separated-from-her-mother-father-says/?utm_term=.ade84762c538

  42. I am not an atheist: I am a practicing Buddhist and a LaVeyan Satanist. Do your homework about it.

  43. Really! The Calvinist reactionaries are very quick to beat on liberals with their twisted interpretation of the KJ Bible and for once an openly knee jerk reactionary is taken to task for violating one of the basic teachings of The Christ and there is push back. Talk about ultimate hypocrisy.

  44. You purposefully failed to mention that there was no claim made by the magazine that the girl had been separated. The photo is what it is.

    http://time.com/5317522/donald-trump-border-cover/

    John Moore, a Pulitzer Prize-winning photographer for Getty Images, has been photographing immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border for years. This week one of his pictures became the most visible symbol of the immigration debate in America.

    “This one was tough for me. As soon as it was over, they were put into a van. I had to stop and take deep breaths,” Moore told TIME Tuesday, describing his reaction to the scene of a two-year-old Honduran girl crying as her mother was being detained in McAllen, Texas. “All I wanted to do was pick her up. But I couldn’t.”

  45. There are rules that govern entry into and practice of the Catholic Faith.

    There are rules that govern entry into America and laws we must obey as citizens.

    Unless you are proposing borderless anarchy in America or the dissolution of the Catholic Church, laws and obedience to those laws are an essential component to the nature of membership, citizenship.

  46. Withholding Holy Eucharist from manifest sinners is a form of discipline. It is also a recognition of the prior reality that separation from the faith has already occurred by obstinately held incorrect and heretical belief or manifest sin.

    Politics are irrelevant to the question of Catholic discipline. Protection of Catholic Dogma and the Precious Body of Christ are all that matter to Holy Mother Church which transcends any particular moment in time.

  47. Hmm. Given that specific combo, maybe you’d be better off switching to Illiterate Atheist?

  48. Maybe you’d be better off reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead or the Satanic Bible before judging either book by its cover.

  49. “Unless you are proposing borderless anarchy in America…”
    That’s exactly what they want — but they won’t “propose” it as such until they’ve raised plebian emotions to a fever pitch.

    Immigrant children, separated from their parents, confined in razor-wire cages, sleeping row on row on the floor under foil blankets — ordered under Obama, rounded up under Obama, and confined under Obama. Yet not a peep — not one — from the Media or the Democrats. Ergo, the kids are not their concern — “resisting” Trump is. The hypocrisy is enough to gag a maggot.

  50. Oh c’mon already. This kind of deliberate, we-so-clever, biased scam job is precisely why:

    (1) Public trust in the media is now only 32 percent (not even one-third of Americans), according to Gallup.

    (2) Trump gets traction every time he tweets the charge, “Fake News”, against the media.

  51. These pictures are merely an opportunity. If not this, something else (Russia, immigration reform, Collusion, Stormy, Immigration again). Leftists are constantly searching for a propaganda advantage, dropping one manufactured issue for another whenever useful.

    The Rule Of Law is what is under attack. Anarchy is the ultimate goal of leftism. Pure will to power; the destruction of every boundary of Judeo-Christian civilization.

    In the Catholic Church, Dogma sourced in the red words of Christ Himself and unceasing Tradition is offered up for change, manifest sin and the Sacraments subject to personal opinion and democratic vote.

    In America, Law and the Borders that define the Law’s boundaries is under direct attack.

    Lawlessness is the fundamental issue of this Western conflict. Do we submit to rightful Constitution based authority, order and just-Law, or do we descend into the lawlessness of an angry mob; “law” issuing from personal whim and imposed by violence?

  52. You’re just smarting because this was a defeat for Trump. Trump is fake news. The picture is what it is — and it doesn’t change the fact that Trump’s policies are sociopathic and abusive of children. Your support for such evil says a lot about who you are.

  53. Spuddie:

    One minute before birth the unborn is potential PP saleable material.

    One minute after birth we have a baby.

    Blah!

    What sophistry.

  54. Says the guy who thinks that a virgin gave birth.

    One minute, virgin. The next, giving birth. What lunacy.

  55. There is no point to any of Bob Arnzen’s posts. He’s just an Alzheimer’s patient, babbling for attention all day.

  56. Christians make up stupid lies for attention about how “persecuted” they are, and that’s all they’re good for.

  57. Translation: you just can’t get over your cannibalism fetish.

  58. As either attacks or distractions, Russia & collusion are failing them badly, and Stormy is fading fast. The only thing they have left is to focus on the divisiveness and conflict inherent in “Identity Politics” — which is what the “immigration” fuss is really all about. “Diversity” is the opposite of the “Melting Pot” concept, and has the opposite effect. It doesn’t unify; it divides.
    Just ask yourself one question: Has America become more unified, or more divided since “diversity” became the political war-cry of Progressives?

  59. You can’t be disciplined in the United Methodist Church for “violating one of the basic teachings of The Christ”.

    You can only be disciplined for a violation of something in the Book of Discipline.

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/foundational-documents

    “These articles became the basic standards for Christian belief in the Methodist church in North America. First published in the church’s Book of Discipline in 1790, the Articles of Religion have continued to be part of the church’s official statement of belief.”

    http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church

    “Of the Duty of Christians to the Civil Authority”

    “It is the duty of all Christians, and especially of all Christian ministers, to observe and obey the laws and commands of the governing or supreme authority of the country of which they are citizens or subjects or in which they reside, and to use all laudable means to encourage and enjoin obedience to the powers that be.”

    which appears to be what Jeffrey Sessions said and did.

    I guess that wraps it up, eh?

  60. This appears to deal with the United Methodist Church.

    Enumerate “these churches (which) have meddled in politics” and explain their relevance.

  61. There are children still in detention from the Obama Administration.

    And your point is ….?

  62. He/sh/it has no point, except to be annoying.

  63. Yep, that’s a wrap for Christianity. Enjoy that rapture of yours.

  64. Actually, diversity is the same as the Melting Pot concept, in that this has always been a nation of immigrants.

  65. Meanwhile, our daily dose of FAKE NEWS from the White House. The Sociopath-In-Chief claimed that “criminal illegal aliens” have committed more than 60,000 murders in the U.S. since 2001. The government does not track this date. Trump was asked for the source of the date, and not surprisingly, offered nothing.

  66. Okay, I’ve taken Comparative Religion; I’m aware of those two textbooks. I know what a “Bardo” is, I’ve read LaVey’s Nine Statements. But here’s my concern for you: You say you “are not an atheist” (which means you’re open to accepting some sort of higher power), but your sources for higher powers are coming from THOSE two texts. (Both texts allow for higher powers through the backdoor.) Which raises the issue, exactly which higher powers are calling the shots in your life?

    (No, I’m not asking for a reply, for that is a personal issue. I wouldn’t ask anybody in a wide-open Internet form anyway.) Let me offer this, though: I genuinely care what happens to people. Life is short. TBD and TSB hold people down, keeps them trapped, caged, and on the hamster wheel — and then tells them blatant lies that will take them to Hell.
    You were –you ARE — created and purposed for a far better life than that stuff, Charlotte.

  67. That’s like saying the Nazi Government was the same as the Weimar Republic, in that Germany has always been a nation with many Jews.

  68. Christianity holds people down, keeps them trapped, caged, and on the hamster wheel — and then tells them blatant lies that will take them to mental institutions, like virgin birth.

  69. What on earth are you smoking, crack?

  70. Definitely a defeat for Trump’s attempt to enforce the law and close the political loopholes that cause the immigration crisis. But clearly not a defeat for Trump himself. He’s already moving forward.

    Your divided, desperate Democrats, unable to find their “Blue Wave” despite Trump’s wild style, were cynically counting on the child-separation gig to give them a political boost for the Mid-Terms. But now Trump has pulled the plug on the Dems with his reversal, the anti-Trump Time Magazine gig has been fully exposed as Fake News, and the economy is still high.

  71. You’re a liar to the core. How is torturing and abusing children a viable policy? Some sick mofos are running this country right now, and those who support it are just as sick. “Immigation crisis” is propaganda, as is your spin on the photo. How can an actual photo be “fake news”??? Trump is for idiots and liars. You prove that every day here.

  72. Is it wrong to detain innocent children? You don’t appear to know.

  73. There is no point. Block the cyber-flotsam for your own convenience, and enjoy the embarrassment this person causes his/her fellow God-haters.

  74. The difference is in how they were regarded and treated. The only thing required to see that is a clear mind – sorry for your lack.

    It’s simple. “Diversity” treats immigrants as possessors of an ethnic identity which must be protected, collected, and empowered. The “Melting Pot “ treats ethnic identities as handicaps to be shed in favor of a new identity: “Americans.”

  75. What a crock of BS. You are just a racist xenophobe. Go back to wherever your ancestors emigrated from.

  76. It’s Christians who are forcefully denouncing the camps.

  77. Actually, Christians on this forum are denying that the camps exist, or that children are really caged and tortured, or that any of this is even a problem.

  78. Good luck explaining to God why you didn’t care about children locked in cages.

  79. The United Methodist Church tries to stay out of politics.

    You’re welcome.

  80. Good question. Hey, Bob, are you Russian?

  81. You pretend to care about babies but don’t object when they are being locked in cages with no plan to reunite them with their parents.

    You’re a fraud and will one day answer to God for your sins.

  82. Are these the same Christians who want to hold gay marriage and abortion rights hostage over the child internment issue?

  83. If they pretend to oppose abortion but don’t care about the toddlers being kept in cages why assume they’re anything but Russian trolls?

  84. John 6:53

    The final words of Christ before His death on the Cross: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in you ….. “.

    It is not optional. Many, including Judas, were and are unable to accept that but it is an essential teaching of Jesus and His Church. That is why it is called “Communion”, in the fullest sense of that word. That is why you must be a baptized Catholic Christian, in a fully confessed and forgiven state of grace to receive Him. No mere symbol, He comes to Christians Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. It is the central, most crucial teaching of Holy Mother Church.

  85. Yes. Any crisis will do. Whatever leverage they can get. Truth is not as important as results. They have played by those rules since Bill Clinton played Monica to leftist adulation and applause.

  86. Which, indirectly, was my point. I guess indirection is a little too challenging for the Cariocoid. What I should have said is “So #§!%ing what?”

  87. Because they’re exactly like the Christians I knew while growing up in Alabama. That kind of hypocrisy is all too typical, sadly.

  88. Yeah… You are seriously addicted to that cannibalism/snuff-porn fetish of yours. Keep it away from children.

  89. Even more reason to openly suspect they’re Russians.

  90. Tell that to everyone in Alabama who voted for Roy Moore. I dare you.

  91. What does N/A stand for in your handle — “Not Applicable?” That’s appropriate.

  92. Christians annoy me in general, just by existing.

  93. Not if they oppose gay and trans rights, they don’t.

  94. You’re going to be saying your “goodbyes” for long, looong time

  95. It’s a fact of life that flight risks and criminals get taken away from their children. the only thing that makes this so difficult is the sheer number of children, thanks to the sheer number of criminals they have for parents. And of course there was always a plan to reunite them with their parents, once it was determined whether they would get to stay here or (much more likely) be sent home.

  96. Does your name indicate Nazi affiliation?

  97. Really? What’s going to shorten it — Revelation 13:7? Does that fulfill your expectations and illustrate your allegiances?

  98. I’m totally just waiting for all you dumb SOB’s to get raptured. #DrinkThatKoolAid

  99. I’m a bit new to this website but my God, Bob. You have to be the stupidest commenter I’ve ever encountered.

    You should really download the Disqus downvote viewer on Chrome to fully realize how asinine you come across to everyone who doesn’t fap to a crucifix.

  100. No wonder you’re known as “Charlotte Not/Applicable.”

  101. LGBT+ people annoy Christians just by existing. Oddly enough, the feeling is mutual.

  102. Actually, the “N/A” stands for “Nazi Assassin”: I assassinate Nazis just by trolling them on the internet, with facts. #VirginsDontGiveBirth #DrinkThatKoolAid

  103. Suppressing dissent, as usual, because you can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you. #ThatsSoChristian

  104. You think that a virgin gave birth. #DrinkThatKoolAid

  105. Do it, then. I’ve been trying for decades, but they’re just too stupid to listen or learn anything, ever.

  106. “You libbies just been going crazy on this stuff, ain’t you?”

    No, but conservatives sure have their panties in a twist over how bad they look in the media right now.

  107. Churches who oppose gay and trans rights have no relevance whatsoever. Lose your tax-exempt status about it.

  108. No, there was a process (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/19/how-immigrant-children-families-reunited-according-federal-government/716065002/ ). There may have been problems implementing it, due to the sheer numbers of lawbreakers and their children the government is dealing with and the problems of two different bureaucracies talking to each other, but it was there. And the process of reuniting the lawbreakers with their children now that the government has started keeping detained families together has begun as well (https://fox5sandiego.com/2018/06/22/white-house-500-immigrant-families-have-been-reunited/ ), with help from some Good Samaritans (https://www.nationalreview.com/news/23andme-myheritage-offer-help-immigrant-families/ ).

    But I don’t see the point in continuing this, considering the level of prejudice revealed in your last statement.

  109. You block everyone who disagrees with you, because you are not a real person, and you are scared of the fact that your kind are outnumbered on the internet.

  110. BobbyJoJack Arnzen-Carioca simply gets frustrated when his errors and his religious delusions are pointed out to him.

  111. And there, OttoZeit, a typical nasty, deluded Christian just like his lover BobbyJo Arnzen, makes another childish personal attack on Charlotte.

  112. Right on, Charlotte.

    BobbyJo and Otto and Shawnie get their combined knickers into awful knots when their religious delusions and their legions of errors and self-contradictions are pointed out to them.

  113. No, BobbyJoJack Arzen-Carioca. We caught you doing that long ago, and you are still at it.

  114. Yeah, that and talking snakes, flat round earth, and general anti-science notions. BobbyJoJack Arnzen-Carioca swallowed the whole set of lunacy hook line and sinker.

  115. Actually I understand that at JoeMyGod it’s the Nazi -sshole.

  116. I have never posted at JoeMyGod. I see you haven’t really blocked me, after all.

  117. Asking if their loyalties are to America or Russia is a historical burn too.

  118. Oh — now, another annoyer is annoyed. Two for one!

  119. The Time cover pic is a meme. That’s all it is — artificially constructed, and signifying just one thing: “We don’t like Trump.”
    Ttry telling me something I don’t already know.

  120. They don’t like Kim Jong-Un, and they never liked Adolf Hitler, either.

  121. Arnzen you just proved your hypocrisy, heretical beliefs, blasphemy, arrogance & ignorance all at once.

  122. It doesn’t take much sanity to trigger the insane, does it? Mouth-frothing rage on display.

  123. The cross depicts a dead Jesus – and as far as you’re concerned, that’s the end of the story, right? The Romans certainly thought so. From your own point of view, the image represents the failure of Christ and Christianity (I wonder when they’ll figure out what went wrong!). So, no – you’re the one who should be be getting an erotic charge from contemplating the crucifix – it perfectly expresses your own point-of-view passions.

  124. You’re quite the armchair psychologist.

  125. It doesn’t take a whole lot of psychological acumen to figure out where “fap to a crucifix” is coming from. That’s about as transparent an exposure of disordered eroticism as you’ll find.

  126. I think you read too much into stuff.

  127. You just made that up. Actually, the correct term for what you’re trying to say would be “Nazi Assassinator.” while “Nazi Assassin” would signify an assassin who is a Nazi (English 101 — maybe you should re-take). That’s actually not a bad handle for you; you can make up whatever excuse you like for using it, but I prefer to follow the fact that “N/A” is the standard abbreviation on government forms for “Not/Applicable.”

  128. You never explained the origin of your name, Nazi scum.

  129. I’ll leave that decision to the readers — you’ve already done your self-exposure. But it’s not my judgment — or theirs — you need to be concerned about.

  130. Your hyperbolistic frenzy continues to invalidate your commentary.

  131. Trying to scare me with your invisible man?

    Not going to work.

  132. Thanks…but the last two times I tried to click on the link you provided, up popped the Disqus statement on “blocking users” instead.The system won’t let met get to the information itself. Nefarious or incompetent?

  133. “Scaring” is not my purpose or my concern. Exposure – and perhaps even an opening of your mind – is. Looks like “opening” isn’t going to work either.

  134. You do realize that most of us “nones” have been there, done that.

    Haven’t set foot in a church in 26 years and I’m not going back.

    Christians are petty, mean, and hypocritical. I want zero to do with any of it.

  135. Frankly, my basic inclination would be to ignore the whole splenetic tumult. But…I have a hard time resisting the fat targets she keeps serving up for a slapdown.

  136. So what? Do you realize that a good number of us believers have “been there, done that” with disbelief? For someone who “wants zero to do with” Christianity, you’re digging in pretty hard against it.

  137. Call it evangelism.

    The more people I can help escape the phony nightmare that is Christianity, the better.

  138. You can call it what you like. The point being that in actual fact you DON’T “want zero to do with” Christians and Christianity — you want a LOT to do with them.

  139. I’d love to see them stomped out and go the way of the Olmecs so we can get on with a productive society without sad superstitions.

  140. And the self-exposure of your splenetic obsession continues.

  141. And in this case the Christian is also a dyed in the wool Neo-nazi.

  142. One can always look to your posts and Bob’s as examples of Conservative Christian love, understanding, honesty and compassion. Yes, you are both Christian as they come. 🙂

  143. You never asked. It’s a play on the phrase “outta sight.” Bwahahahah. Wrong again. Regrettably wrong; risibly wrong; repeatedly wrong. That’s quite a record you’re compiling.

  144. “There are rules that govern entry into America and laws we must obey as citizens.”

    Rules, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. Ones which are fairly arbitrary, outdated, in desperate need of reform, do not meet our nation’s immigration needs, and rife with counterproductive nonsense by bigots. Rules you have no interest in learning about or figuring out how they can be fixed. You know so we wouldn’t have to be wasting so much tax money and resources going after people who are actually useful to the nation.

    “Unless you are proposing borderless anarchy in America”

    Nope. Nobody is. But they are saying that putting children into concentration camps and using government agencies to harass day laborers, agricultural workers and domestic help is not a useful policy. That is unless you are a neo-nazi.

    People who mutter about enforcing laws they know nothing about are not real Americans. They are lying wannabe fascists who just want to abuse the system in order to attack people for its own sake.

    If you are making excuses for and supporting treating these families worse than we do criminals, POWs and illegal combatants, you are a scumbag.

  145. “Yet not a peep”

    And you are not making a peep about it now. You are making excuses for intensifying the policy.

    You certainly didn’t object when Obama was doing it, you are not doing it now.

    Making you a scumbag twice over.

  146. Rule of Law is under attack by a president who had worked with a foreign power to disrupt an election, from one using his position to profit financially, who is putting children in concentration camps and holding them hostage to improve his political position.

    Christianity was founded by a convicted and executed criminal. Someone you would call names and insult his existence.

  147. Muller has 5 convictions so far and Michael Cohen is so ready to flip he is insulting the president now in public.

    BTW neo-nazis like yourself are the very definition of identity politics.

  148. More proof that neo-nazis are the retarded offspring of the Nazi Germany.

  149. Says the guy who focuses on my name rather than my argument.

    I did indeed ask if your name indicated Nazi affiliation. Your memory is fallible.

  150. What’s your point?

    In distinction to the Cariozoid, you should be able to follow the logic to my indirectly made point.

  151. No point. Having fun.

    My nickname is more amusing than yours is 🙂

  152. “…neo-nazis like yourself are the very definition of identity politics.”

    That kind of splenetic hyperbole should embarrass an honest rhetorician, but it obviously doesn’t apply in your case, for whatever reason — probably because you’re not an honest rhetorician.

  153. “You certainly didn’t object when Obama was doing it.”

    Nobody objected. Nobody knew it was happening — that’s the only point to be made there. It was hushed up by the media, and the political motivation behind their contemporary tumult is transparent,

  154. Its hardly hyperbole when describing your posts.

    Poor white supremacist snowflakes get annoyed that various minority groups show pride in the face of constant discrimination and bigotry for being what they are.

    Nobody who supports Trump has any right to be talking about rule of law to anyone. Rule of law is not using government resources to attack people for shts and giggles, but that is what we have right now

  155. “No point.”
    Exactly.

    “Having fun”
    If making pointless comments is your idea of “fun, that would explain a lot of your responses.

    “My nickname is more amusing than yours is”
    You never miss an opportunity to assert your superiority on trivial grounds, do you? My nickname wasn’t chosen to “amuse” anyone — least of all you.
    And what’s funny about “Spuddie”? What’s the punch line — that you’re a couch potato?

  156. “…to attack people for shts and giggles…”

    That’s not even hyperbole, it’s just plain old hysterical fanaticism. If you really believe that about your political opponents, then “politics” in the sense of negotiation and compromise becomes impossible. You can’t “compromise” with Evil, you can only fight it to the death.

  157. Triggered dirtbag wants people to be civil when they make excuses for putting children in concentration camps and treating families worse than terrorists. How interesting.

    “You can’t “compromise” with Evil, you can only fight it to the death.”

    How right you are. Too bad you are on the wrong side of the situation morally in every possible way.

  158. You are not objecting to it now. You are making excuses for it. That makes you a scumbag in the here and now.

    You are trying to avoid the present by making up crap about what people did in the past.

  159. And we can look to you and the various incarnations of Lisa Strom as examples of God-hating vulgarity and superficiality. More importantly, all the passers-by that Ben tries so hard to put on a nice-guy show for can look at you as such too.

    Always the mental image of the two guys with shovels — one digging a hole as fast as he can, the other filling it back in on top of his head just as fast.

  160. I think it has something to do with living under a rock.

  161. Nah, still one for one. Same idle kid who badly needs some burgers to flip.

  162. There is all that great compassion, understanding and love one can expect from a conservative Christian!

    Without them we would have never known , “love thy neighbor as thy self” came with an addendum of “unless I want to treat them like crap”.

    People can just feel the Christian love coming from your remarks.

  163. We love you enough to not want you to go where you’re headed. And to offer you the exit ramp.

    None of that, unfortunately, turns your vulgarity into good breeding or your ravings into logic, or the debris that Lisa and her personalities scatter around any less boring to scroll through.

    Blocking is something like a 21st century equivalent of shaking the dust from one’s sandals and moving on.

  164. You might make a better argument if you would reduce the references to Nazi, Hitler, Fascist, scumbag etc. Those words don’t mean anything any more. Your argument doesn’t make sense. Your insults do not help you.

  165. You think like your emoji. Reptilian.

    CNN and MSNBC rots the brain. That much is obvious. You need to branch out.

  166. LOL! That great Conservative Christian love and concern! Something which is entirely indistinguishable from malice and bigotry by any objective measure.

    BTW I do not speak wingnut. I have no idea who Lisa Strom is (nor care enough about your reference to bother to google it) But she must have you triggered something fierce.

  167. You don’t think at all. You are giving me canned garbage and excuses for repugnant behavior by our government. I have yet to see someone invoking “Rule of Law” on this subject who wasn’t an ignoramus covering up for patently bigoted motives here.

    Its really that simple. If you think concentration camps for children was the only reasonable option here, you are a scumbag. A morally depraved person. Someone unworthy of civility and probably beyond shame.

  168. Why? When you follow policy directives of white supremacists, and support putting families concentration camps, Nazi references come with the territory. It doesn’t help you at all that you are acting like one as well. Nazis used “rule of law” to justify atrocity. Just like you are trying to do.

    If you are uncomfortable with it, good. The last thing you should feel is comfortable about supporting such actions. You don’t deserve to be treated with gentility and polite discussion here. Your views are ignorant, repugnant garbage. It is a moral duty to insult you and those who act like you.

  169. Two great options to solve your dilemma:

    A: Build a wall so they can’t get across in the first place.

    B: Keep the “families” intact and send them directly back home where they belong. Their own home in their own country.

    A is the best option. Prevent the illegal act. If any succeed in getting through and breaking our immigration law, then B takes care of the rest.

    I agree with you, I don’t want to keep them here either. Send them home.

  170. Dude, if you are annoyed at being called a Nazi, DON’T ACT LIKE ONE. Oppose things like treating children worse than illegal combatants, murderers and POW’s. If you make excuses for such things, you are scum. Its just that simple.

    “Two great options to solve your dilemma:”

    There are plenty of options. But you won’t think of a single sane one. Because all you want to do is treat people of color like crap for shts and giggles.

    How about these (proportional and just :
    1. Treat asylum claims seriously as our immigration laws demand. The government is deliberately attacking the ability of these families to seek counsel and due process for asylum application.

    2. Manual labor visas (so we don’t have to penalize the workforce we are clearly in demand for)

    3. Treat illegal alienage (without any felony actions or fraud) as a fine offense as opposed to the disproportionate and counterproductive deportation. You pay, you stay. Something entirely in line with out immigration laws.

    Trump wants to waste money to attack people in the most ridiculously malicious ways possible. He is simply following the white supremacist platform on the subject. He is the Neo-Nazi’s president.

  171. Very doltish response. I guess honest appraisal of your position is a bit too much for you. Oh well.

  172. Another pointless comment from the couch-potato dinosaur. Or is it the potato-head dinosaur?

  173. You seem to have a need for some compassion and concern tonight, Lare. If so feel free to share it — preferably with a minimum of references to excrement, which invariably causes me to tune out.

  174. You of course know quite well who she is, but for others who may be reading she is the same as Not-Applicable and Cariozen and other easily recognizable personalities who contribute nothing to any thread but irrelevant and vulgar one-liners.

    I’m an adult and therefore don’t get “triggered,” but I get bored and impatient scrolling through inconsequential debris. Same reason I use an ad-blocker.

  175. Great, isn’t it? Gotta love authenticity from God-haters.

  176. Why are you dissing the Olmecs? You obviously are a bigoted example of OLMEC-PHOBIA!!

    (Oh, the utter shame of it!! )

  177. My conclusion was it was fueling what ails her, and is was clogging the conversations up with silliness.

  178. A one-bagger will have to do. It’s late. As for flipping burgers (or anything else, I’m afraid), he/sh/it is too consumed by fanatical rage to pay mundane attention to things like performing a task for pay. He/sh/it will probably grow up to become either a criminal or a community organizer (it’s a thin distinction, I realize).

  179. It would be easier if you just didn’t call people names.

    For your info:

    1 – Our immigration laws demand that you enter the country legally BEFORE presenting asylum claims.

    2 – Visas are issued in response to need. The fact that your supermarket is full-up in the lettuce department confirms that is what is happening.

    3 – If illegal entry is treated like any other fine offense in this country, their lack of funds means they’ll be putting some time in the slammer. The major goal is to NOT release them into the population to disappear.

    The President is fulfilling his campaign promises.

    He is his voters’ President, just like Barack Lawless Obama was your President.

  180. Concentration camps, what concentration camps?

  181. Of course you speak wingnut. You write nothing else.

  182. Concentration camps? You see concentration camps?

  183. Not at all. Not do I feel a pressing need to look up your reference. Again, don’t speak wingnut. 🙂

  184. I can tell from your posts, you are a compassionate and loving Christian who acts with humility, charity and love towards all humanity. So very Christ like. 🙂

  185. Stay focused on my name, since that’s all you’re good for.

  186. You certainly won’t find any from god-believers.

  187. This is the only account I am currently I using.

  188. They love to critique people’s names, because ad hominem attacks are so much easier than thinking.

  189. WHAM! Nasty and typically Christian BobbyJo Arnzen Carioca fires off yet another unwarranted insult at a sincere, honest poster.

    BobbyJo, you are pathetic. We are coming to take all your guns away.

  190. And there goes Shawnie5 spewing yet another of her sick delusions. Shawnie, you and reality are far apart. Spuddie, Charlotte, and I are quite different people, do not collaborate, and AFAIK, have never met.

    One thing we clearly do have in common, though, is well-justified disdain for your bigotry and your crazy religious beliefs. Just get over them already.

  191. Pure irony from l’il ole BobbyJoJack Arnzen Carioca as usual there.

  192. It is physically impossible to build a 2,000-mile wall. Go to engineering school.

  193. No, Otto. Reality is too challenging and difficult for you to comprehend with your addled mind, so you fall to delusion.

  194. Hillary won the popular vote, FYI, you lawless cretin.

  195. Indeed, and in fact it’s not just whataboutism that Otto is doing, but dishonest whataboutism. We could call it Trumpian Whataboutism.

  196. Great Wall Of China: 13,170 miles.

    Built over 500 years ago.

    Perhaps our more “advanced” modern engineers need to go back to engineering school.

  197. Asking for argument over insults is “doltish”?

    It doesn’t take much intellect to throw off “Nazi”, “Fascist”, “Hitler”, etc, etc. Might make ya feel better, for a while, but it has zero power to persuade.

  198. We are not required to grant anyone “asylum”. We may, or may not. Our current security situation favors not. Those who sneak in illegally, bypassing legal entry points, definitely not. Trump was elected because most people in this country to control our southern border and protect our security.

    Immigration and asylum requests are all fine, as long as it is done properly according to the law: written by Congress; interpreted and accomplished by the President.

  199. And how much slave labor built that wall? I suppose I should have said, it is physically impossible to build a 2,000-mile long wall without enslaving and killing lots of people and burying them inside of it.

  200. The passers by? Do you mean the people that you once referred to as the “uneducated, the gullible, the weak minded, and the easily led?”
    I AM actually a very nice guy– a nice guy that has been listening to “Christians” talking about “Love” for 50 years, and seen all of the harm it has done to my brothers and my sisters, to beautiful gay kids who kill themselves over this toxic spew, to adults who live furtive lives of promiscuity, substance abuse, and despair.
    Even us nice guys can get pretty pissed off about that. I think it says worlds– BobWorlds, in fact– about you and your ilk because you are so assured of your own self–righteousness and imaginary superiority…
    THAT IT DOESN’T BOTHER YOU IN THE SLIGHTEST.

  201. Trump is a liar. Thought you’d want to know.

  202. And you, of course, are the Carnival of Compassion, the Epitome of Empathy, and the Triumph of Tolerance.

  203. Which, of course, is why you’re at “Religion News”.

    You’re looking for a fight.

  204. While your camp is petty, mean, and hypocritical.

  205. So, you can’t get what you want, when you want, how you want, right f-cking now, and that means Christians don’t love you.

    I’ve been dealing with an alcoholic recently and I’ve gotten a megadose of this addicted personality nonsense.

    The rest of us don’t get what we want, when we want, how we want, right f-cking now either.

    Get over it.

  206. Some passers-by are, some aren’t. Such is life.

    Although the numbers of gulllible might be going down just a tad, since fewer than one-third of Americans now trust the news media, thanks in large part to the kind of liberal shenanigans we have witnessed this past week. Good job.

    “I AM actually a very nice guy…” So you say. And you may in fact be. But Tater and Not-Applicable and all the other haters who embarrass you here probably think they’re nice people too, so your self-evaluation must be taken with a measure of skepticism, particularly in light of your own admissions that you are here for show.

    “…and seen all of the harm it has done to my brothers and my sisters, to beautiful gay kids who kill themselves over this toxic spew…” You left out an essential here — cause and effect. You appear to have some vague belief that if Christianity would just go away then your beautiful gay kids would no longer be killing themselves. Yet we have seen your dream virtually come to pass in Europe without the expected results. If the Netherlands — the best place in Europe for LGBT, where SSM has been legal the longest, where homosexuality is almost universally accepted by the populace and almost nobody even thinks about religion anymore, much less the scripture — has the same rates of LGBT suicide, depression, substance abuse and mental illness that we have, then what we’re talking about is, as the Catholic Church puts it, a disordered state. Nature has a way of pushing back when it’s repudiated outright.

    And THAT is what bothers us.

  207. When religious leaders attempt to insert themselves into the government, you’re going to get pushback.

  208. When anti-religionists attempt to insert themselves into religious discussions, you’re going to get pushback.

  209. Perhaps you should retreat into your little bubble because I’m not going anywhere.

  210. No, Otto. That’s actually your own situation.

  211. Thanks for that. You’re now a self-onfessed hysterical fanatic. Too bad your fanaticism is “Not/Applicable.”

  212. If you don’t like being accused of making pointless comments, there’s an easy fix for that – try saying something that has a point.

  213. Shawnie5, that’s pretty low even coming from you, you lecherous old cougar and disgusting, deluded, rancid old bigot.

    And here you are now trying to get your itchy legs around Bobose Arnzen, after you drove away poor Eddy B-S. Too funny. But Bob isn’t your type, as you can see from how hard he’s been drooling and chasing after poor Ben.

  214. No, more like you, actually, Bobose, you lying, bigoted sack of turds.

  215. Try that yourself, OttoZeit, you old deluded fool. It would be a first for you.

  216. Interesting, you made a really nasty comment, even for you, and suddenly, it’s gone. But I saw it, and read it, and got it. I suspect you realized what you had done, and deleted it shortly after, lest your image as The Perfectly Loving Christian (TM)come into disrepute. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize it until too late, so I can’t reproduce it. But I remember two things you did.

    One: no, I don’t want Christianity to go away so that I can live my life the way I want. That’s simply two!two! Two lies in one. It’s not what I “want”. First, I frankly don’t care if it lives or dies. But if its funeral happens to occur, and I’m in town, I’ll be sure to attend. And you can put that at the feet of people just like you, and Floyd, and Sandimonious, and BobWorld. So secure in your righteousness, your imaginary superiority, and your purely Calvinistic joy in being the “elect”. So you think. Second, it’s not about Christianity going away, but of CHRISTIANS of your moralizing, smug busybody type minding their own goddam and goddamming business and staying out of the lives of people who haven’t asked for them to make an appearance. I know you fervently believe you are superior. Good for you.

    Two: nowhere does any of this show up any better than in your concluding paragraph. You get to talkabout how it isn’t really 2000 years of Christian love and persecution, but that we are inherently “disordered”— that is the word you used. And to your mind, that disorderjustifies your opposition to gay people participating fully in society, truly, actually, and authentically, AS WE ARE MADE.

    You finally gave it away, explicitly. Thank you. Most of the gay people I have known in my life lead fully functional lives, at least as much so as most of the heterosexuals.

    And then you justify that bit of nastiness—. I’m sure you would call it sincere religious belief— by citing holland, with the nonsense that it is the most liberal place on earth for gay people, Well, woudja-just-looking-that-them-gays-is-still-a-mess. 2000years of Christian love and persecution have done a lot of damage, and you blame the victims if it isn’t gone in 25 years.

    It might be a liberal place for gay people— NOW. But that really isn’t the problem, is it. For nearly 2000 years until relatively recently, the Christian response to gay people has been that we are evil, sick, wrong, dangerous, threats, perverted, disgusting, a threat to everything good and holy, a threat to marriage, family, morality, faith, freedom, children, and Western civilization. We cause earthquakes, divine judgment, hurricanes. We molest children, have lost god, have lost decency, and in every way possible are just bad bad bad bad bad. Only if we do what YOU tell us– strike that, do what you claim god says we should do– is there even a chance that we will be seen favorably. And if the result of that is destructive lifestyles, a life of promiscuity, drugs, furtiveness, despair, and psychological problems, well, hey, we SHOULD JUST DO WHAT YOU TELL US TO. And then we wouldn’t have that problem.

    Blame the victim much?

    This has been going on for 2000 years. So it is not surprising that the effects of 2000 years of lies, vilification, and the careful inculcation of self hatred and self despite are still felt, even is relatively accepting societies like Holland. and it will be another couple of generations before the effect is virtually gone. And of course, your churches are busy, doing what they have always done— their best to teach self hatred among the younger and weaker of us, funding political campaigns attacking us, trying to force your obsessions about sex upon the civil law, and all of the rest. All while pretending to be god’s BFFF.

    What I hear you doing is what I have seen so many do: ignore all of that. You are “proving” that there is something inherently wrong with us in your statement. Next, I’m guessing, you’ll be saying that we KNOW that there is something wrong us, that it is written on our hearts, rebellion against god, yadda yadda. Oh wait! That’s exactly what you did say In your statement, and you’ll eventually get to the rest, I’m sure. Others of your type certainly have.

    No, you are proving there is something wrong with YOU. There is nothing wrong with me or any other gay person I know that ending 2000 years of persecution and destructive messages won’t eventually cure.

  217. Now THAT is speaking of yourself, Bobose.

  218. If only you could take his guns away. But that would make poor little Bobose cry, without his bangbang toys to threaten others with.

  219. Shawnie, you are a lecherous old cougar, not a stable adult.

  220. Stick to critiquing the fact that my full name is “Not/Applicable” to stalker trolls on this forum, and ignore the fact that I am right.

  221. Thanks for that public relapse into your default mode of insult and moral anathematizing. Carry on.

  222. “Our opponents aren’t people with bad ideas – they’re bad people with ideas.” That pretty much sums up the “platform” of Progressives on any issue.

    Get out of your default mode of insult and moral self-elevation. It’s not only getting tedious, it’s always been irrelevant and boring.

    BTW, that’s quite a rack of fans you’ve collected there. I guess they recognize a compatible level of juvenility. “Birds of a feather…”

  223. Certainly none of your arguments are going anywhere.

  224. This is what, account number 5 or is it 6?

    – Account reported

    – flagged

    – blocked

    Bye.

  225. I removed nothIng. Disqus’ asinine moderation system detected it as spam, or some such, probably because I quoted your statements before responding to them. If I use different punctuation it doesn’t do that

    I’ll try reposting it in segments without quotation marks. But I’m amused by how wrong you get it when you judge others by yourself. It’s very telling

  226. Some passers-by are uneducated, gullible, weak minded and easily led. some aren’t. That’s life. Although the numbers of gulllible might be going down just a bit, since fewer than one-third of Americans now trust the news media, thanks in large part to the kind of liberal shenanigans we have witnessed this past week. Good job.

  227. You say you’re a nice guy, and you may in fact be. But Tater and Not-Applicable and all the other haters who embarrass you here probably think they’re nice people too, so your self-evaluation must be taken with a measure of skepticism, particularly in light of your own

  228. Cause and effect, dear. You appear to have some vague belief that if Christianity would just go away then your beautiful gay kids would no longer be killing themselves. Yet we have seen your dream virtually come to pass in Europe without the expected results. If the Netherlands — about the best place in the world for LGBT, where SSM has been legal the longest, where homosexuality is almost universally accepted by the populace and almost nobody even thinks about religion anymore, much less the scripture — has the very same rates of LGBT suicide, depression, substance abuse and mental illness that we have, then what we’re talking about is, as the Catholic Church puts it, a disordered state. Nature has a way of pushing back when it’s repudiated outright.

  229. As I read this, your complaint consists of (a) a post no one but you read which (b) was deleted by the author who apparently thought better of it.

    That seems to be point in favor of the author for having the integrity – assuming all this really happened – to mitigate the offense.

    It’s not about same sex going away, but of hard-line LGBTQ moralizing, kvetching, posing as the new blacks, litigating, and then trying to make people with religious beliefs genuflect to their positions.

    You are not inherently “disordered”, but same sex orientation is.

    Your personal disorder appears to have other roots, in childhood, parenting, apparently some odd religious issues at home – perhaps do what I say not what I do.

    You write “It might be a liberal place for gay people— NOW.” and then go on for another paragraph complaining. Next we’ll be hearing about reparations.

    What is becoming clear is the maw of insatiability is unfillable.

    The rest of us get knocked for being skinny, fat, black, Jewish, oriental, spectacled, bald, hairy, this religion, that religion, “mackerel snapper”, and on and on and on.

    Life’s tough.

    Get used to it and cease whining.

  230. It’s adorable that you think that. Dunning Kruger victims usually do.

  231. Let’s be clear, you are not adorable.

    You are not amusing.

    You are not bright.

    You’ve played the “Dunning Kruger” card in the past on other fora.

    It has been pointed out to you before that if anyone has low ability with illusory superiority and mistakenly assesses his cognitive ability as greater than it is, you’re he/she/it.

  232. “uneducated, gullible, weak minded and easily led” and a lecherous, bigoted old cougar, is you in a nutshell, Shawnie.

  233. Shawnie, no, it is you who is “asinine”.

  234. Otto, no Christian can lay claim to morality. Carry on deluding yourself, but don’t spread your disease to the public.

  235. “Get used to it and cease whining.” Now there’s a perfect instruction for you to follow, Bobose, you disgusting hypocrite.

  236. You wish you could silence me, Bobose, but now you know you can’t.

    We caught you in your dirty tricks. Suck it up, little Bobby.

  237. ” you are not adorable.
    You are not amusing.
    You are not bright.”

    Now, there, we have “Bob Arnzen” (at least his 11th nom de tromperie here) our resident hypocrite and deluded bigot, describing himself well.

  238. Otto, your own “self-exposure” here is quite embarrassing for you.

  239. We put a man on the moon 50 years ago. We built a massive trans-national freeway system after WW II. We are traveling to Mars. We are reusing rockets (landing where they took off … on a boat!). Self driving cars. Building a wall is not rocket science. Fabricate here. Lay it down over there. Have you seen the windmills generating electrical power all over the country? Massive arrays of enormous windmills. Trucks have been driving windmill components across the … freeway system (20th century freeway system) … for years now. They are now a major part of our electrical grid.

    The wall is easy. Not even that expensive, relatively speaking (to windmills for example). What is difficult is the political will to make it happen. Trump and his supporters certainly have that.

  240. Block, but don’t flag! This is atheism in all its authentic glory — it’s great for everyone to see it.

    Make no mistake that Mr. I’m-A-Nice-Guy in Oakland, for one, winces every time one of Lisa’s personalities runs across the stage.

  241. this reader says you are full of shite.

  242. your godling wants us in fear and trembling. Since I never saw any evidence of your god or any god, your scare tactics are silly and laughable.

  243. me, too. Had it shoved down my throat and got away from that claptrap as fast as I could.

  244. so you admit you are a neo-nazi christo-fascist?

  245. NO, you want us to. We are calling your bluff.

  246. attempt???
    They are taking it over. Trump the opposite of a Christian panders to them in all ways.

  247. I am not anti-religion. I’m anti-nutcase.

  248. he’s an Effing narcissist and want everyone to worship him in the form of his god.

  249. Definition – a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc., Certainly not summer camp – do you have an accurate alternative?

  250. A wall is a colossal waste of money – just a very expensive monument to a specific ideology. A wall will stop no one and in fact, likely add to the difficulty of controlling access. Think of the thousands of miles of shoreline as the new alternative.

  251. That’s your experience? Walls and locks and security measures don’t stop anybody? Huh!

    So what you’re saying is we can no longer defend our border. The most powerful, technologically advanced, prosperous nation on earth cannot defend its borders. Anyone can cross, anywhere, any time they please, and there is nothing we can do.

    Well, I just have to disagree with you on that one. My experience with walls and security measures is not the same as yours. Besides, if we don’t have a border, we don’t have a country. So we kind of have to make that work.

  252. So, these are not concentration camps.

    These are detention facilities for individuals who are waiting for trial for a crime.

  253. I can’t help it if your agenda is completely at odds with notions of morality, rule of law, democratic principles and basic decency. But here we are.

  254. The ideology, of course, being that a border should be crossed legally.

    Oh, that isn’t an ideology, it’s more or less the definition of a border.

  255. No, they don’t. You are all delusional. #DrinkThatKoolAid

  256. You want to build a wall to stop all immigration, which you describe as “borderless anarchy”: this is insulting to both immigrants and anarchists, alike.

  257. These children are not criminals, yet they are being treated like “enemy combatants” at Guantanamo Bay.

  258. What a raging trans-phobe you are. You must have a really small penis.

  259. Stop whining about the fact that gay people have sex, and you do not.

  260. All you ever do is whine about the fact that gay people exist.

    “Your personal disorder appears to have other roots, in childhood, parenting, apparently some odd religious issues at home – perhaps do what I say not what I do.”

    What an accurate description of yourself, Bob! This is why Christianity is going the way of the dinosaur: goodbye, and good riddance.

  261. You’re the windbag with a penchant for crackpottery.

    I love how most of the other commenters have blocked you. I’m fairly close but you’re entertaining me at the moment so I’ll let you drone on for a bit.

  262. As long as you amuse yourself.

    You’re certainly not amusing, informing, or doing anything productive with anyone else.

  263. When homophobes attempt to insert themselves into civil rights discussions, you’re going to get pushback.

  264. Nobody loves homophobes like you, Bob.

    Get over it.

  265. Describe yourself and your religion some more, Bob.

  266. Feel free to block me if you want to.

    I’m pretty spectacular and I know it so you’re not really going to hurt my feelings.

  267. Immigrants cross at legal crossing points and follow the legal process of immigration, ultimately becoming proud American Citizens.

    The wall keeps out invaders, not “immigrants”. These invaders simply bypass our immigration law by walking in and disappearing. Unregulated illegal entry allows criminals, terrorists and various lowlifes to enter who would *not otherwise be granted entry* by our generous immigration system.

    Immigrants follow immigration law. Invaders do not. A wall is the the benefit of law abiding, hard working immigrants, who I greatly favor. A wall is a detriment to criminal invaders, who I abhor. Just enter at the entry point and follow the law like everyone else, including me. For those tempted to bypass the law, the wall stands there, pointing down the road to the entry point where everyone else is crossing.

    That is no insult. It is a classic, mainstream, middle class position.

  268. LOL, no, it isn’t. There will be no wall. Get your head out of your lower orifice.

    You are just a racist xenophobe. Go back to wherever your ancestors came from, immediately.

  269. And as usual, when there is no answer you revert to insults and bigotry.

    Trust me, it has no persuasive power.

  270. If you think you’re spectacular, you’ve gotten bigger problems than an inflated ego.

  271. Exceptionally spectacular actually but I didn’t want to brag.

  272. Just remember: the only folks you can make feel bad are your parents.

  273. Mom guilt hasn’t worked on me since the late 80’s.

    Fundy guilt is even more amusing.

  274. Smart woman, I can see why she gave up.

  275. Says the anon troll who thinks that all immigrants are criminals and anyone who supports them is an anarchist. Your kind have no persuasive power.

  276. How strange to label as “liberal” those who speak out against policies of offering no asylum women fleeing violence or separating children from parents trying to come here also fleeing violence, hunger, and hopelessness.

    I would think the appropriate label would be “Christian.”

  277. You did not read nor understand what I wrote.

  278. You did not read or understand an engineering textbook.

  279. I did not say that a border should not crossed legally – the idea though that it will stop illegal immigration and asylum seekers fails to consider other options and relies on an anti-immigrant political platform as evidenced by language and sharp reductions in numbers is short sighted

  280. I didn’t say that at all. There is more than one way to secure a border. A focus on this border area ignores the fact that there are coastlines on both oceans and the Gulf providing additional thousands of miles of points of entry. A concern noted by the Pentagon at least 10 years ago.

  281. Doesn’t ignore that at all. The wall just emphasizes the normal entry points of traditional invasion routes. One way or another, we have to control access to our country. We decide who, when, where and how many. The wall is the obvious first step. I am sure there will be others: land, air, sea. Good!

    You may be the nicest, most welcoming person in the world, but you likely keep your doors closed and locked in your home, perhaps with an alarm armed while you sleep. If you grant entry to a stranger into your home, (unlikely for most of us), you likely prefer to invite select guests of your choosing into your home rather than feed and house whoever happens to fancy your place, walk in and plop down on your couch after raiding the fridge. If there is a security weakness in your home, you will likely fix it, especially after a break-in or two.

    Invited guests are great. Invaders, not so much.

  282. Walls have worked great in Israel, in China, in the former Soviet Union. Walls work.

    The Federal government and Congress have had 30 years since the amnesty to consider other options and done nothing.

    The last President simply voided all laws – which really incensed the public.

    No, it is time for a wall.

  283. Time to send in the Marines to establish democracies in the lands that these immigrants are fleeing from?? And one must ask why these asylum seekers didn’t stay in their countries and fight for justice just like our Revolutionary forefathers fought for our freedom?

  284. Liberals, especially church going liberals, really don’t like freedom.

  285. Do you wince when Roy Hobs, Otto T. Goat, Springer or Strongs123 runs across?

  286. Certainly I do not care for extremist ideas, including from the right side. But then again I am here to discuss actual, specific issues and exchange information, not to put on a dog-and-pony show for the readers about how nice “we” are and how eeeevul “they” are, as Ben has acknowledged is his primary goal. I admit to being amused when his compadres won’t cooperate in this silly venture.

    The universality of corruption is neither a surprise nor a logical problem for me — it’s part and parcel of Christian belief.

  287. Building a wall, conveniently, targets only the brown-skinned immigrants from Central and South America. It does nothing to stop white European immigrants from coming here and overstaying or abusing their visas (then becoming First Lady).

  288. “Nazi Assassin” is valid terminology for an assassin of Nazis. Just as “Kennedy assassin” is valid terminology to describe the killers of JFK and RFK. It would not be understood to mean a member of the Kennedy family who is an assassin.

  289. The economy is still high? Is that why manufacturers are pulling jobs out of the US due to Trump’s tariffs? Does the great economy explain why gas is over $3.00 a gallon? Everyone tired of winning yet??

  290. No –that would a direct translation, not a “play on the phrase.”

  291. Conservatives have been weaponizing church discipline against Democrats with regards to abortion and no one batted an eye. Now liberals want to turn the tables by using church discipline against conservatives are are actually involved with anti-immigrant atrocities and all of a sudden there’s a problem?! I’m sick of the double standards used against liberals–who seem to do no right in your eyes!

  292. You win a prize for the most racist comment of the day.

    Why does skin color have anything to do with anything in your mind? If white Europeans, yellow Chinese, olive Italians, black Africans or brown Latinos are racing across our border they are, one and all, security risks and should be caught and deported.

    It’s the law. Cross at a legal checkpoint. Why is that difficult?

    You people are obsessed with color! Color, color, color.

  293. I’m the racist? Pot meet kettle. You people are the most Orwellian types I’ve ever come across. You specifically mention how we need to secure the southern border and build a wall, and you have the chutzpah to suggest that you care about European illegal immigration? News flash Aqua, if you cared — if ANY Trump voter cared — about illegal immigration when it isn’t black and brown people, you wouldn’t be so obsessed about a wall. So spare me the nonsense.

  294. Is there a flood of illegal Europeans to be concerned about? I had not heard of this.

    It is quite simple: get in line like everyone else and enter the country legally.

    Do you leave your house door open at night and let anyone who pleases share your home and the food in your fridge whenever they please? Or do you prefer to invite those you wish as family or guests?

    It’s the same thing. All colors and races: go to the Border Entry Point and ask permission to enter our country.

  295. Oh, now we require a “flood” of migrants to enforce the “rule of law” conservatives have supposedly been frothing over for the last two weeks? I agree with you completely that people should come here legally, btw. The problem is that it’s never enforced equally. When Hispanic children are incarcerated, but Slovenian soft core porn models can overstay and work unauthorized on their visas and are allowed to be First Lady, you can spare me the “all colors and races” shtick.

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