James MacDonald preaches at Harvest Bible Chapel in an undated video.

James MacDonald fired as Harvest Bible Chapel pastor

CHICAGO (RNS) — James MacDonald, the embattled pastor of Harvest Bible Chapel, has been fired by the suburban Chicago megachurch he founded three decades ago.

His departure follows years of controversy over MacDonald’s leadership style and the church’s finances.

Elders announced the move in an update posted to the church's website on Wednesday (Feb. 13).

According to the update, MacDonald "was removed as Senior Pastor and as an Elder of the church for engaging in conduct that the Elders believe is contrary and harmful to the best interests of the church."

"His employment has been terminated from Harvest Bible Chapel, effective today, February 12, 2019," they wrote.

In their update, elders said the decision was made after "a lengthy season of review, reflection, and prayerful discussion" of MacDonald's conduct as pastor.

Chicago radio host Erich “Mancow” Muller. Photo courtesy of WLS

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

MacDonald's departure from the church had been rumored on social media over the past week. On Tuesday, Chicago radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller aired clips of a recording of purported remarks by MacDonald, in which he allegedly insulted critics, including Christianity Today magazine, which reported on the controversy at Harvest.

Those remarks accelerated the timing of the elders' action, according to the update.

Muller, who says he attended Harvest for years and once considered the church’s pastor a friend, has become one of MacDonald’s most vocal critics.

Several of the comments in the audio clips were aimed at the staff of Christianity Today, the evangelical flagship publication based in the Chicago suburbs. They include vulgar references to Ed Stetzer, a contributing editor to the publication and head of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College; editor-in-chief Mark Galli; and CEO Harold Smith.

“CT is Anglican, pseudo-dignity, high church, symphony-adoring, pipe organ-protecting, musty, mild smell of urine, blue-haired Methodist-loving, mainline-dying, women preacher-championing, emerging church-adoring, almost good with all gays and closet Palestine-promoting Christianity, so of course they attacked me,” the voice allegedly belonging to MacDonald said on one of the clips.

The recorded comments also include a joke implying an affair between Galli and Julie Roys, a freelance journalist who was sued by Harvest while writing an investigative piece critical of the church.

“Would Jesus say that, guys?” Muller asked on his broadcast.

In a blog post responding to the recordings, Roys called the comments “disgusting” and a “complete fabrication.”

"Galli and I have never had anything but a professional relationship, and it’s repulsive that anyone—a pastor, no less—would make a joke about that," she wrote.

On her Facebook page, Roys said MacDonald’s firing is “long overdue.”

“That being said, I am grateful for this first step in the right direction," she wrote. "And I am praying for the good people of Harvest, who I know are grieving today. I can only imagine the sense of betrayal and loss. I am so sorry it came to this,” she said.

Mark Galli. Courtesy photo

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

Galli also posted a response to the alleged recordings of MacDonald.

“MacDonald is clearly angry with the way CT has covered his leadership at Harvest, and he’s succumbed to the temptation to slander me, threaten our CEO, and denigrate others,” he wrote. “This is unfortunate. But this is part of the life of journalism, because we know that we’re not exactly popular with people about whom we have to report bad news.”

Muller, who began attending Harvest in 2014, said he was initially drawn to the church by MacDonald’s preaching.

The two became friends and even vacationed together. During a trip to the Holy Land, he said, MacDonald baptized him in the Jordan River.

When the pastor began to complain about Roys, Muller passed on the name of his lawyer. He eventually began to believe the church's critics.

Muller recently wrote an op-ed criticizing MacDonald in the Daily Herald, a suburban Chicago newspaper, and used his Twitter feed to call for MacDonald to step down. He also threatened to file a class-action lawsuit against Harvest.

The radio host said he hasn’t heard from the church or from his former friend since he began speaking out. He believes the church had an unhealthy culture that allowed MacDonald to do whatever he wanted.

“He really set up a culture where nobody could question him. He's never wrong,” Muller said.

Muller said he prays for the people who have been “scared off and damaged by the church” because of what happened at Harvest. The experience has shaken his faith, he said. He now doubts that MacDonald believes what he preaches and hopes that his former pastor will mend his ways.

“Pastor James, I hope that you will actually learn the Bible and believe it for what it is instead of trying to use it as a tool to manipulate other people,” he said.

Prior to his firing, MacDonald, longtime host of “Walk in the Word,” a national Christian radio broadcast, had taken an "indefinite sabbatical from all preaching and leadership” from the church since mid-January, calling himself unfit to preach and caught in a sinful cycle of “injustice, hurt, anger, and fear, which have wounded others without cause.”

“I am grieved that people I love have been hurt by me in ways they felt they could not express to me directly and have not been able to resolve,” he said in a letter announcing his sabbatical. “I blame only myself for this and want to devote my entire energy to understanding and addressing these recurring patterns.”

At the time, church elders pledged to pursue a “reconciliation process” with those hurt by Harvest Bible's leadership, including MacDonald. “We are asking the Lord to lead us as we engage in this peacemaking process.”

The Elephant’s Debt website, left, and the lawsuit brought by Harvest Bible Chapel, right. RNS photo illustration by Kit Doyle

MacDonald's critics, who include former Harvest Bible elders and the authors of a blog called The Elephant's Debt, have accused MacDonald of being a “man of low character” whose ministry was distorted by a “love of power and money.” They claimed that MacDonald’s mismanagement has left the church, which boasts some 12,000 members on its eight campuses, tens of millions of dollars in debt.

In 2013, MacDonald and other church leaders ousted three elders who had identified a “culture of fear and intimidation” at the church. MacDonald later apologized and asked for forgiveness.

The controversy was rekindled in recent months when MacDonald and Harvest Bible filed sued against the Elephant’s Debt bloggers and their wives, along with Roys.

At the time, Roys was working on a story about the church for World magazine.

The suit claimed that the bloggers and Roys were spreading false information. MacDonald and the church’s elders hoped the suit would bring an end to the controversy and shut down online critics.

“We just want them to stop,” church leaders said at the time.

Journalist Julie Roys. Courtesy photo

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

The lawsuit was dropped in January after a judge denied the church’s request to delay discovery in the case and to block defendants from publishing documents related the case.

Harvest and MacDonald have also been at odds with the Great Commission Collective, a church planting group made up mostly of congregations that were part of the now-defunct Harvest Bible Fellowship. MacDonald resigned as president and cut ties with HBF in 2017.

Harvest elders later reprimanded MacDonald, saying he had no authority to “dissolve our governance of and participation in Harvest Bible Fellowship.”

Since that time, some former HBF leaders have argued that Harvest Bible Chapel may have mishandled funds intended for the church planting network. Last year, Harvest elders said an audit showed all funds were used appropriately.

After MacDonald’s sabbatical was announced, the Great Commission Collective issued a statement criticizing Harvest’s peacemaking process, according to a copy of the statement posted on the Elephant’s Debt blog.

“The primary issue is not reconciliation or peacemaking,” the statement reads. “It is repentance. A peace-making process, while helpful for personal and relational reconciliation, is not the approach to address failed governance, biblical disqualification, and a toxic leadership environment.”

Harvest has also been under criticism for its handling of the case of Paxton D. Singer, former youth minister at the church’s Aurora campus. Singer was arrested in October and charged with sexual exploitation of a child. Critics claimed the church failed to adequately inform parents whose children may have interacted with Singer.

A former Harvest staffer was also reported to police last fall after being accused of embezzling $270,000 from the church.

During his sabbatical, MacDonald had planned to preach at the Harvest campus in Naples, Fla. When the pastor of that campus objected, he was fired, according to published reports.

Earlier this year, MacDonald and Harvest announced that “Walk in the Word,” a program carried on about 2,000 radio and television stations, would cease broadcasting and instead change to a digital distribution model.

The church plans to provide more details about MacDonald's departure and future plans at this weekend's services.

(This story has been updated.)


  1. Evidently God is not always real careful in his choice of Faithful Servants. Have to wonder sometimes about His higher level critical thinking skills.

  2. We don’t have any evidence, but know that the pastor is leaving the church, and here are a few things that the congregation and past members of the church gossiped about – that might possibly be why he left. Just another attempt to slander the
    Christian church.

  3. And how did Christ choose the wrong person, always? Show us something concrete, please

  4. I read the excerpts of Macdonald saying he was going to frame people with child porn. Guy has some serious mental issues.

  5. And the evidence that there is no god continues to mount.

  6. It is as Jesus said, “Blessed are those who see only what they want to see.”

  7. Thank you for confirming that I am blessed by Jesus.

  8. good girl. Now when you decide to accept Him as your Lord and Saviour, I’ll be honoured to help you

  9. No need to slander the church, telling the truth openly works just fine.

  10. Absolutely – so tell us the truth then, don’t stick to slander. Go ahead; I’m listening

  11. I saw Jesus yesterday standing on a street corner with a “Please help” sign. I gave Her some money, and She thanked me.
    She did not say anything about being a Lord and Savior. Maybe that is something the control-freaks made up?

  12. Why don’t they just forgive him and announce that Jesus has forgiven him, too? Oh, wait! It’s about money.

  13. Now when you decide to accept Him as your Lord and Saviour, I’ll be honoured to help you

  14. ‘She did not say anything about being a Lord and Savior. Maybe that is something the control-freaks made up?”

    She didn’t say anything about being a Lord and Savior — probably because she wasn’t one.

  15. Still “out-thinking God,” are you?
    Presumably you’d do a better job at being God than He does.

  16. ummmm … your moniker says “rational conclusions” and yet your conclusion has no rationale. What does one pastor being a jackass have to do with there being a God? Based on your “rational conclusion” I would assume a bad doughnut means there is no such thing as Krispy Kreme.

  17. how do you know he isn’t forgiven? The liberal psychics strike again!

  18. Satan is no doubt rejoicing. It is heartbreaking when any pastor falls because so many others are disillusioned and hurt and they are used as an example to turn people away from Jesus. Pastor MacDonald must answer to the Lord, I feel sorrow for him. For the rest of us, we should pray for our pastors and leaders, that they will be protected from doing wrong.

  19. James MacDonald is a megalomaniac and does not belong in ministry.

  20. Camper, I owe you an apology -I read elsewhere where he is recorded as saying such. My apology

  21. I agree with you to an extent. I’ve seen many cases where the pastor becomes the object of worship, rather than Christ – as had happed with Jimmy Swagart – he became too big and the Lord had to remind the assembly that He is the one to be worshipped.

  22. But these ministers and priests and rabbis say they are chosen by their god to be his representatives on Earth. How can an all-knowing, omniscient god make any mistakes let alone 1000s? Conclusion, there is no god!! And KK donuts are fortunate not to have to deal with such nonsense.

  23. Shame on anyone who supplants Jesus with a man, even a good man. God alone is worthy of praise and honor and worship.

  24. Once again – your moniker needs to be changed or your “rational conclusions” need to be actual rational conclusions.

    A minister, etc claiming to be chosen by God and God allowing that to happen does not lead to the conclusion there is not an all-knowing (using omniscient here is redundant) God much less no God at all.

    Let’s hope your atheism or agnosticism is not grounded in something other than this type “rational” conclusions.

  25. Such a surprise, more sinning in the church. Love of money, sex, and power. nothing new to see here, business as usual.

  26. I think the point is that this happens over and over and over. After a while, you just have to say- where is any evidence of this Holy Spirit. I’ve never seen it in over 40 years. What I have witnessed for myself is Christians acting no better or worse than the average joe on the street.

  27. I don’t think it was the Lord. Getting caught red handed with prostitutes not once- but twice does it just fine.

  28. What I was saying was the Lord brought him down – maybe withdrew some wisdom for a while, in order to show his congregation that Swaggart was only a man

  29. Do you not think these outrageous actions grieves true Christians? These things are reprehensible. These people grieve the heart of God. They fullfill Romans 2:24 “The name of God has been blasphemed among the world because of you!” That verse is speaking to believers! You are a Christ hater Rational, but you do point out the hypocrisy of those who claim Christ but live like the pagans. It is so painful, but the church needs to hear it and repent….

  30. “He really set up a culture where nobody could question him. He’s never wrong,” Muller said. If this is true then that is known as a cult, not a (Christian) church. Fact is, churches are businesses and it’s leaders are human. Both entities are subject to periodic failure. When they do, why does God get the blame. People are full of faults and make terrible judgements. The result of sin, a deeply imbedded human behavioral characteristic. Only the knowledge that there is a blameless God who loves us and expects us to behave as well as an honest obligation towards self awareness keeps us from eating each other.

  31. You may believe that is true RC but it doesn’t let you off the hook. Let he who is without (fault) cast the first stone.

  32. And you may never see a difference but the fact that Christians are forgiven

  33. The “evidence” has already established that your offense at the concept of God has nothing to do with the reality of His existence.

  34. It’s entirely possible that it’s only a matter of time before people who have run big ministry organizations become incapable of actual ministry—-except the fraudulent kind. I don’t think we understand sufficiently that the competition, the business side, the staffing side, the supervisory side, the fame side, the show business side all converge to change “founders” into people who are far more worldly-minded than anyone thinks—-and maybe in shockingly evil ways. Net, net, don’t follow gurus. You can end up duped and duped badly. You can end up disappointed and feeling foolish for what you believed in. You can even end up having your own spirit hacked, hijacked—–literally stolen from you and replaced with robotic mind control.

  35. Hey he’s been forgiven. Lay off. I once wanted a bike once when I was a kid. I couldn’t afford one, but since I accepted Jesus into my heart and knew I was forgiven, I went out and stole a bike. I then prayed to Jesus, and he forgave me. It was a swell day. I really liked that bike.

  36. No, it appears to be about the usual JoeMyGod suspect with an axe to grind looking for something to chop down.

    Why, Ben, it’s YOU!

  37. John 8:7

    ‘When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any
    one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

    Said passage, as per many contemporary NT scholars, was not said by the historical
    Jesus. One reason for this conclusion is that it appears no where else in the
    scriptures. Actually, all of John’s Gospel is of questionable
    historic value.

    To wit:

    From Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Jesus,

    “Conventionally, scholarship has accorded priority to the first three gospels in historical work
    on Jesus, putting progressively less credence in works of late date. John’s
    Gospel for example is routinely dismissed as a source……

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John#Authorship

    “Since “the higher criticism” of the 19th century, some historians have
    largely rejected the gospel of John as a reliable source of information about
    the historical Jesus.[3][4] “[M]ost commentators regard the work as
    anonymous,”[5] and date it to 90-100.”

    “Theauthorship has been disputed since at least the second century, with mainstream
    Christianity believing that the author is John the Apostle, son of Zebedee.
    Modern experts usually consider the author to be an unknown non-eyewitness,
    though many apologetic Christian scholars still hold to the conservative
    Johannine view that ascribes authorship to John the Apostle.”

    And from Professor Gerd Ludemann, in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 416,

    “Anyone looking for the historical Jesus will not find him in the Gospel of John.

  38. Strong circumstantial evidence that there is no god (or did they all die as martyrs?)

    Number of god’s creations
    who died horrible deaths from the following diseases:

    1. 300,000,000

    2. 200,000,000

    3. 100,000,000
    Black Death

    4. 80,000,000–250,000,000

    5. 50,000,000–100,000,000
    Spanish Flu

    6. 40,000,000–100,000,000
    Plague of Justinian

    7. 40,000,000–100,000,000

    8. 30,000,000[13]
    AIDS pandemic

    9. 12,000,000 ?
    Third Pandemic of Bubonic Plague

    10. 5,000,000
    Antonine Plague

    11. 4,000,000
    Asian Flu

    12. 250,000 or more annually Seasonal influenza

  39. As per the famous contemporary theologian, Edward
    Schillebeeckx, God (if one exists) is not omniscient. Please read, pause and
    contemplate the following by Schillebeeckx:

    Church: The Human Story of God,

    Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

    “Christians (et al) must give up a perverse,
    unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God
    the great scapegoat of history.”

    “Nothing is determined in advance: in nature
    there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is
    possibility of free choices.

    Therefore the historical future is not known even to
    God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God
    holds the strings.

    For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history
    for and of men and women.”

  40. Great, RC!!!! So someone who does NOT believe in God knows EXACTLY who and what God is!? A baker who claims to know how to bake and puts out unpalatable “cakes” is operating under false pretenses; a “theologian” who denies even God’s existence is a pretty weak theo-something–but that “something” does not resemble the “logian” part of it at all!! Go right ahead and insist that one bad apple means the whole bushel is defective — you’ll discover that you are sadly mistaken when you meet the Alpha and Omega.

  41. Another good laugh, RC! Scholars who vote with different-colored chips on which parts of the New Testament are “authentic” are like little children who excitedly explain to their teacher that ice cream comes from the Magic Ice Cream Fairy! Those who know Jesus Christ personally smile sadly at your naivete.

  42. Professor Ludemann was not a member of the Jesus Seminar assuming you are noting the methods of voting by this group of NT exegetes?

    The Jesus Seminarians: Contemporary NT
    exegetes specializing in historic Jesus studies. Requirements to join,
    typically a PhD in Religious History or Religion with a proven record of
    scholarship through reviews of first to third century CE scripture and related

  43. Professor Schillebeeckx believed in God. I added the note about (if one exists). He died a few years ago. His books are available from Amazon. Warning: his theological wordage is very deep and not easy to grasp. e.g.

    The Collected Works of Edward Schillebeeckx Volume 6: Jesus: An Experiment in Christology (Edward Schillebeeckx Collected Works)Sep 25, 2014

    Christ the Sacrament of the Encounter With God

    The Church With a Human Face: A New and Expanded Theology of Ministry, Sep 1, 1987

    by Edward Schillebeeckx

  44. RC, did you notice that when Jesus chose His disciples, there were no theologians among them and He also said to them “Follow Me.” He did not attend the “University of Jerusalem” as the theologians of the day distorted word and His Father’s character which is why He came to this earth to correct that lie.

    By the way, too many who claim to know God do not believe in Satan who is the father of lies and the one who brings the troubles upon us. Read the Book of Job chapter one for further understanding. God Bless.

  45. Don’t defend the indefensible. It doesn’t help anyone. You can however, pray for him.

  46. Most preachers are not called by God but by men. It has become a career just as any other job, congregations need to have a better vetting process to protect their children and themselves from the “wolves in sheep clothing.”

  47. You should keep your focus only on Jesus and NOT on man as you will always be disappointed.

  48. Obviously, you are trapped in the bible box. Quite common by the way.
    As per James
    Somerville, Philosophy professor emeritus from Xavier University, Cincinnati,

    “The faith of
    the vast majority of believers (and non-believers) depends upon where they were
    born and when.”

    It is disturbing that such violence and hatred continues unabated due to
    randomness of birth. Maybe just maybe if this fact would be published on the
    first page of every newspaper every day, that we would finally realize the
    significant stupidity of it all.

    (By James M.

    “John Hick, a noted British
    philosopher of religion, estimates that 95 percent of the people of the world
    owe their religious affiliation to an accident of birth. The faith of the vast
    majority of believers depends upon where they were born and when. Those born in
    Saudi Arabia will almost certainly be Moslems, and those born and raised in
    India will for the most part be Hindus. Nevertheless, the religion of millions
    of people can sometimes change abruptly in the face of major political and
    social upheavals. In the middle of the sixth century ce, virtually all the
    people of the Near East and Northern Africa, including Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and
    Egypt were Christian. By the end of the following century, the people in these
    lands were largely Moslem, as a result of the militant spread of Islam.)

  49. Not to argue because I had the same words not to long ago. How would God let some dirty dog preacher remain active? And so I studied. The Bible says God cannot lie so I asked God. What’s up with this? It also says that God is no respecter of persons. But we are. We put people on a pedestal and lift them up as though their God. Than I read that God gave us the freedom of choice. Choice to do good or evil otherwise we would be his slaves. And who wants to serve a God like that. Not me! People are flawed and what I ultimately learn from being a dad myself is I never taught my kids wrong but rather had to teach them right.


  50. So Christians can act bad knowing they will be forgiven but non-Christians who commit the same acts are damned?

  51. Nope, sorry. I’ve studied theology myself. Schillebeeckx was an imposter who could not accept the mystery of God’s omniscience, and attempted to make himself “wise” by bringing God down to humanity’s level. Since you obviously have an extensive library, look up Psalm 14:1.

  52. Strong evidence that there IS a God: Jesus as He is presented in the Bible. Strong evidence that there IS a God; The response of loving Christians over the years to combat these diseases (FACT: Most hospitals in the 19th century United States were started by CHRISTIAN organizations, and still exist today!) Strong evidence that there IS a God: The number of Christians today who dedicate their whole lives to service to God and to humanity. One preacher who has goes off the deep end does not constitute the whole. (BTW, you don’t mention your parameters for your outrageous numbers. Are you talking about the 20th century, or every century since the dawn of Christianity? That would be an amazing feat, seeing as how there is NO documentation to support any of what you claim.)

  53. The people you quote come from the same basket: People who deny the authority and authenticity of the New Testament as it exists. And you — who deny the existence of God — what makes YOU so ready to accept their misguided and sadly inadequate “research”? For a truly balanced approach, you will have to read Lee Strobel, Ravi Zacharias, and others of their intellect and research. I fear you are in the position of many who claim to be “scholars” today: You pick the answer that most appeals to you — that lets you off the hook prior to really doing honest investigation.

    And before you reply that these people are “experts,” consider the fact that Jesus said to His disciples, “Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?” 13. He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.14. Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit” (Matthew 15: 13-14). I need not remind you that the Pharisees were the “experts” of their day. Many of them had “studied” the Law and the Prophets longer than Jesus had been on earth. The result was the same then as it is now: Jesus rose from the dead and proved all His words were true.

  54. If you insist on quoting “experts,” why not quote Lee Strobel, who has left his ivory tower to discover TRUTH?

  55. I’d be careful, if I were you. God may have given us free will, but He is in complete control of the afterlife. There is no mocking Him once you are face-to-face with Him. An eternity of regret is QUITE a long time!!

  56. As my grandmother used to say, “You can go to hell for lying, just like you can for cheating.” The choice, evidently, to spend an eternity away from God and Jesus is up to you, friend. Your mocking of Him tries to hide a real insecurity.

  57. what about free will? The Lord imparts us with wisdom as we go along for the situations, I would say that the Lord withdrew His wisdom,

  58. No. Christians do act badly and repent. There is only One who is perfect.
    Non- Christians are damned already

  59. Are you the indefensible person who deserves no forgiveness? I know of no one else who doesn’t deserve our forgiveness

  60. So we are playthings for God? He wanted to make a point to the congregation and used Jimmy Swagart to do so? You realize that makes us nothing more than puppets. If God can give and take wisdom then there isn’t much free will.

  61. That’s right, I forgot. God needs us to constantly recognize him otherwise he will forget he is important.

  62. Because he quotes biblical passages which are nothing new.

  63. I think you are more interested in being silly than discussing

  64. Actually no. I’m drawing conclusions from what you are saying. I strongly disagree with your interpretation of God so am asking why you think the way you do.

  65. Don’t need to since I believe the Bible was written by humans inspired with trying to understand who and what God is and our purpose. Your suggestion that God gives and takes wisdom at will contradicts my reading of Proverbs, which suggests wisdom comes about as we come closer to God. Your statement that God took wisdom away wisdom from J.S. to teach the congregation a lesson essentially means that God is partly responsible for his sinning.

  66. You mean you cannot?
    As far as wisdom – ask Saul and Solomon about that

  67. Sandi, I just did. Besides that there is Psalm 37:30 which talks about the righteous uttering wisdom (suggesting that those who follow God are granted wisdom) and James 3:17, which states that wisdom coming from heaven is “pure; then peaceloving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.” Your statement contradicts that. However I see we will continue going in circles.

  68. James does not say that it cannot be withdrawn, as I showed you with
    Saul and Soloman.

  69. Withdrawn for the purposes of teaching others (the congregation) a lesson? And as a result JS sins because God withdrew his wisdom?

  70. Christ can chastise us in any manner He chooses, Mark – except He will not flood the earth again
    Psalm 30:5 -For his anger is but for a moment,
    and his favor is for a lifetime.[c]
    Weeping may tarry for the night,
    but joy comes with the morning.

    He is going to withdraw His grace from the Earth when He comes to destroy it

  71. Well, again RC this is your opinion on the “scholars” you read and believe. You are, like me, completely justified in your research but must admit that your conclusions could be faulty. Try E.P. Sanders “The Historical Figure of Jesus” for a well balanced read on the historical JC.

  72. “his anger is but for a moment”…interesting considering eternal damnation.


  74. Stick your head in the sand – Sandi in EL. Don’t look. Don’t listen. Sheep fits you fine.

  75. he still had to go. God can forgive him but he is pulling down the ministry. YES. He had to go.

  76. I don’t believe a graduate of the Union Theological Seminary will give a well-balanced read on the historic Jesus.

  77. See for a summary of his beliefs: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/jesus/epsanders.html . Unfortunately, whereas Sanders appears to capture the meaning of some of Jesus limited authentic utterances, he still believes in the one of the biggest cons ever, the physical resurrection of Jesus.

    To the point:

    “Heaven is a Spirit state” as per JPII and Aquinas i.e. there can be no bodies.
    i.e. there was and never will be any physical resurrections/ascensions of human

  78. eternal damnation is chosen by the recipient because they rejected Him, Mark. If you don’t want a relationship with Him here, He doesn’t force Himself on one in the after life

  79. Boy, that must be a really awesome God who tortures people for eternity just for lying. I guess God thinks it’s fair to punish you forever for a temporal failing. By that logic, we should put children in the electric chair for lying to their parents right? Take a course in logic and get your ged. Even evil cultures like ours know that the punishment needs to fit the crime- unless you’re Hitler or a monster. They do believe in torture.

  80. Paul, If you’ve never encountered Rational Conclusions before, you’ll soon come to the same rational conclusion as the rest of us who frequent these boards. He’s best ignored. Regardless of topic, he cuts and pastes the same blather over and over again. He’s basically the guy on the bus who mumbles to himself. At first it’s distracting, but after a while you don’t even notice anymore

    Wait until he hits you with his “rigorous historic testing” and “great kibosh” lines. Oldies but goodies.

  81. I don’t know all the facts, we must remember we will be judged on the same level in which we hold others. When a Pastor is asked to leave because of wrong doings, or sin, he can be forgiven by God the minute he/she repents. We always talk about the Love of God and how He’s forgiven us of so much, then we kill our wounded before the world. Anyone that spreads this beyond what has occurred, or keeps it as a topic of conversation, be sure you will answer to God.

  82. Magic Ice Cream Fairy? Thats like the pot calling the kettle black.

  83. Whoops! Your bias is showing! Poor YOU! You’ll certainly be surprised when you meet Jesus face to face! Don’t say we didn’t warn you! (However, I doubt whether you’ll have much to say in the presence of a Holy God.)

  84. Not to worry:

    Regarding hell, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian, had a
    different take on hell. He reasons that the Singularity (your version of god) does not tolerate
    imperfection in the spiritual realm. Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin
    will simply disappear since hell the imperfect state does not exist. (assuming
    that there is a Singularity and a spiritual realm).

  85. God didn’t create those. Someone just like you who disobeyed God did.

  86. I watched “Walk in the Word” on TV and supported the ministry for the past few years. Can someone tell me what the facts are so I can at least understand what occurred and who I should pray for?

  87. Hmmm, then who created those plagues that rained down on the Egyptians as described in great detail in the Book of Exodus?????

  88. “Would Jesus say that, guys?” Muller asked on his broadcast.

    No, Jesus called people whited sepulchers, full of rotting corpses. He called people dogs, shrugged at calamities as just desserts, and even called one of His own disciples SATAN!!!!

    Where do you people get the idea that Jesus was a sugar-coated pushover?

  89. I’d venture to say that most “megachurch” leaders have serious ego problems. It just comes with the territory.

  90. I don’t necessarily agree. Even if that were true, it’s unacceptable. Change the model to avoid cults of personality. Dismissing it as “coming with the territory” is disappointingly defeatist. I choose not to accept, nor describe to defeatist ideology.

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