Report: ‘No evidence’ of racist statements by Covington Catholic students

A video of Covington Catholic High School student Nick Sandmann, left, and Native American activist Nathan Phillips went viral after their encounter in Washington, D.C., on Jan. 18, 2019. Screenshot via YouTube

(RNS) — A third-party investigation into a controversial January encounter between a Native American group and students from a Kentucky Catholic high school concluded that there is “no evidence” of racist or offensive statements by the students.

Yet the same report, which was released on Wednesday (Feb. 13), also conceded that some students from Covington Catholic High School responded to a Native American man drumming and singing by performing the “tomahawk chop” used by some sports teams — an action many Native Americans find offensive.

Chase Iron Eyes, organizer of the Indigenous Peoples March, issued a statement in response to the report on Wednesday evening. He said he wasn’t surprised that the report “would fail to hold the students accountable for their behavior that day” along with parents and guardians. He also expressed frustration with a culture he described as lacking understanding about indigenous people.

“We are living in a nation where our president makes jokes about the Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee,” the statement read in part. “It’s possible that people within the Covington Catholic community are not willingly expressing racism, but as is clear from the report’s findings, there’s a lack of understanding about the racism inherent in the tomahawk chop.”

Bishop Joseph Foys, who heads up the Diocese of Covington that oversees the school, struck a very different tone in a statement posted on the diocesan website.

“I am pleased to inform you that my hope and expectation expressed in my letter to you of 25 January that the results of our inquiry into the events of 18 January at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C. would ‘exonerate our students so that they can move forward with their lives’ has been realized,” Foys said.

Foys also said the firm that completed the report has no ties to the diocese or the school.

The report was commissioned by the Diocese of Covington after video of the incident went viral. Hours after the encounter, social media was awash with several clips depicting various parts of what transpired between groups near the Lincoln Memorial and the students, who had attended the anti-abortion March for Life demonstration earlier that day.

One video showed the students, many of whom were wearing “Make America Great Again” hats, being berated by a group of Black Hebrew Israelites before responding by loudly shouting school chants.

A group of men interacts with Covington Catholic High School students and other people on the National Mall on Jan. 18, 2019, in Washington. The group is thought to be a sect of Black Hebrew Israelites. Video screenshot

Another video showed the students being approached by Nathan Phillips, a Native American man who had attended the Indigenous Peoples March, also that day. Phillips later said he was trying to de-escalate the situation by chanting and playing a drum. He ended up standing face-to-face with a student later identified as Nick Sandmann.

Video of Phillips and Sandmann staring at each other, as the two were surrounded by Covington students, went viral.

A social media firestorm that played out over the weekend after the incident resulted in the diocese and others initially condemning the students’ behavior, only to later re-evaluate their approach and call for an investigation.

The subsequent report, which was prepared by Greater Cincinnati Investigation Inc. and dated Feb. 11, employed four investigators who pored over hours of video and interviews with witnesses. The report indicates they were not able to interview Sandmann or Phillips. 

Investigators reported they found “no evidence of offensive or racist statements by students to Mr. Phillips or members of his group,” nor did they find evidence that the students chanted “Build the wall,” as Phillips initially claimed they did.

The report did note that some students used the “tomahawk chop,” but it was not immediately clear whether investigators did not consider the action a “statement” or whether they did not consider it offensive or racist.

Bishop Joseph Foys in Covington, Ky., in 2013. Photo courtesy of Creative Commons

The report also acknowledged a video of young men shouting at two women but said investigators could not confirm whether the students were from Covington. It was not immediately clear if investigators reached out to the woman who originally posted the video on Twitter.

In his statement, Foys defended the actions of the Covington students.

“Taking everything into account, our students were placed in a situation that was at once bizarre and even threatening,” Foys wrote. “Their reaction to the situation was, given the circumstances, expected and one might even say laudatory. These students had come to Washington, D.C. to support life. … Their stance there was surely a pro-life stance. I commend them.”

Since the incident, Phillips has offered to meet with the students and church officials to discuss the encounter, hoping to transform it into a “teachable moment.”

Religion News Service reached out to the diocese but did not immediately hear back.

About the author

Jack Jenkins

Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for RNS based in Washington, covering U.S. Catholics and the intersection of religion and politics.


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  • An unsurprising whitewash. Emphasis on white….

    One more spectacular example of the U.S. Catholic church rebranding itself in the Trump era — after 6 in 10 white Catholics placed Trump in the White House — as the church of the white and right.

    “Pro-life,” indeed!

  • Sorry, I’ve seen ‘tomahawk chops” on Hogan’s Heros and there were no indians to insult

    ” He also expressed frustration with a culture he described as lacking understanding about indigenous people.” very true

    “It as is clear from the report’s findings, there’s a lack of understanding about the racism inherent in the tomahawk chop.” don’t watch Hogan’s Heros

    “Investigators reported they found “no evidence of offensive or racist statements by students to Mr. Phillips or members of his group,” nor did they find evidence that the students chanted “Build the wall,” as Phillips initially claimed they did.”” Gosh, you mean young children in high school received death threats for nothing? Golly!

  • THIS IS OLD NEWS – “There is ‘no evidence’ of racist or offensive statements by the students.” And THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS:

    (1) Lin Wood, @LLinWood, Twitter, February 8, 2019: “Nathan Phillips will be sued for his defamatory lies. … First lawsuits ‘within two weeks’ … 14-Minute video, Nick Sandmann: The Truth in 15 Minutes, produced by Sandmann’s attorney, provides compelling evidence refuting critics of the students.”

    (2) Steve Jalsevac, “Nick Sandmann’s lawyer: ‘Nathan Phillips will be sued’ over lies against Covington boys”, LifeSite News, February 8, 2019.

    (3) Debra Heine, “Covington Boy’s Lawyers Send Preservation Letters to Over 50 Media Entities”, PJ Media, February 4, 2019.

    (4) Cameron Knight and Max Londberg, “Sandmann lawyer: Letters sent to New York Times, Today Show, 50 others may precede suits”, Cincinnati Enquirer, February 1, 2019.

    (5) L. Lin Wood, P.C., Nick Sandmann: The Truth in 15 Minutes, YouTube, February 1, 2019: “2 weeks ago, the mainstream media, politicians, church officials, commentators, & celebrities rushed to judgment to wrongfully condemn, threaten, disparage & vilify Nick Sandmann based solely on a few seconds of an out-of-context video clip. It only takes 15 minutes to learn the truth. Here it is.”

  • Students wearing Make America White Again caps are not making a racist statement. It must be so, because the bishop says it is so.

  • Any adult who puts a MAGA hat on a minor (or permits a MAGA hat on a minor in his or her charge) is an adult you need to defend yourself from. OF COURSE it’s racist, and sick, and snarky, and arrogant, and offensive, and exclusionary, and pugnacious. This kind of personal signage using a Trump-Trademarked phrase indicates people with anti-social attitudes toward a full half of other Americans. It indicates an endorsement of the thousands of lies emanating from the Trump campaign and presidency. For that reason it is basically a crime of impropriety to put this junk on kids. If churches and church people are going to insist on behaving in this deplorable manner, call them out on it. Catholics and Protestants, of all people, should know better but it’s becoming clear that many do not.

  • “Any adult who puts a MAGA hat on a minor (or permits a MAGA hat on a
    minor in his or her charge) is an adult you need to defend yourself

    But, because you’re left wing Democrat, you lack the means to defend yourself.

    EXCEPT if you’re a rich left wing Democrat like Dianne Feinstein, then you have armed guards to defend you.

  • Re: “Foys also said the firm that completed the report has no ties to the diocese or the school.” 

    … except for having been paid by the diocese to generate it. Woops. 

    Re: “The report did note that some students used the ‘tomahawk chop,’ but it was not immediately clear whether investigators did not consider the action a ‘statement’ or whether they did not consider it offensive or racist.” 

    If they’re from Kentucky, then they likely are unaware it’s offensive. And they also very likely don’t care to be told that it is. 

  • The “MAGA” hats are political.
    The “OBAMA” T-Shirts are political.
    The idiotic “P***Y HATS” are political.
    The “RESIST” bumper-stickers are political.
    The “BLACK LIVES MATTER” T-Shirts are political.

    And I’ve seen young people displaying ALL that stuff. So stop whining, please. None of them constitute any threat or crime against you or anybody. None are racist per se. All of them are protected by the First Amendment, which is a national treasure that we hope you (and the very dubious Mr. Phillips) have not abandoned.

  • I don’t recommend any of your capitalized signs above being put on minors by adults. Kids are not the billboards on which older people are supposed tp paint their opinions.

  • No, of course not. I’m just pointing out that being hired to do something is definitely a “tie” to the diocese/school. The implication a company that spontaneously came forward with a report and plopped it in the diocese’s metaphorical lap, just doesn’t make sense. That’s all. 

  • You’re worried about adults letting their kids wear MAGA hats when you should be worried about New Yorkers killing their unborn children.
    Get your priorities straight.

  • Of all of the examples you give, the MAGA example is the only one that is dishonest about what it advocates. “Great Again” is code for “White Again”. Of course, people have a constitutional right to pretend otherwise or to delude themselves otherwise.

  • According to Bishop Foys, “Their reaction to the situation was, given the circumstances, expected and one might even say laudatory”.

    The poor bishop must have been threated with a serious revenue shortfall to say something this craven.

  • Racism? Maybe not. But the kids were sent there by their Catholic high school to demonstrate against women’s rights of conscience and religious liberty with regard to abortion. Isn’t that contempt for women’s rights just as bad as racism?

  • There was nothing “laudatory” in the students actions. They should have walked away. That would have been a “laudatory” action.

  • The MAGA hats are racist statements. The tomahawk chop whether Indians are present or not is a racist statement.

  • They were waiting for their bus where they were told to wait, when they were aggressively approached and attacked by two groups of hostile and irresponsible “adults”.

    Under those circumstances, their actions were most commendable. Their parents can be proud of them.

  • Cut the “Fetuses are not persons” crap. Abortionists are now willing to kill fully developed, viable children both seconds before – and even right after – they are born (see recent events in New York and Virginia.)

    You can’t keep running that “they’re just a blob of cells” baloney. Abortionists have now dropped the mask, and are opening celebrating the murder of viable, fully formed, healthy human beings. It is clear now that that was always their end goal.

    What you abortionists now openly advocate is barbaric.

  • They should have walked away Nothing commendable about their attending the event in the first place, about their wearing MAGA hats and about how they handled confrontation.

  • The report suggest otherwise based on chaperones ‘ perspective who did not see that they were under any threat. Shortly before bus time, 2 chaperones in fact did tell the students to back up. There is nothing in the report from a chaperone perspective affirming Sandman’s statement that he needed to defuse the situation. What I find truly surprising is that there were 16 adult chaperones. Or 1 chaperone for less than 3 students.

  • Irrelevant. The cold fact is that, sometimes, it is offensive. Like, when one does it in the face of a native American (and not at a sporting event). 

    I get that you probably don’t agree, but what you think about it makes no difference. Your subjective opinions only matter within the vast, empty vault which is your own brain. 

  • Then I guess you find ‘blackface’ also ok and that the Virginia Governor’s conduct not worthy of resigning .

    But if you listened to the perspective of Native Americans, they deem that to be inherently racist and offensive. And in this case there were people drumming and chanting.

  • Hmmmm…. I see you went into jerk mode instead of following my line of reasoning.
    Contrary to your statement, I do think it’s wrong to do the chop to an Indian if the intent is malicious.
    The point of my question is that there are plenty of people who went after the Covington kids for being insensitive but have no problem doing it when they wear their team colors.

  • being that the blackface was what, 34 years ago, yes, I would say that is obsessive.
    And with the indians, the kids did no wrong.

  • Of course they are, but how many of the list above were also worn while on a Catholic school trip to attend an event to “”End abortion by uniting, educating, and mobilizing pro-life people in the public square”, advocates for overturning Roe v. Wade. ” ? Politicizing diminishes unity at such an event and thus diminishes the intent of the March.

    As a Catholic school trip, one wonders then about the words of Pope Francis in his 2015 speech to Congress where he counsels “The contemporary world, with its open wounds which affect so many of our brothers and sisters, demands that we confront every form of polarization which would divide it into these two camps.”.

    My perspective is taken even further by the Bishop of the Diocese of Lexington who wrote ““It astonishes me that any students participating in a pro-life activity on behalf of their school and their Catholic faith could be wearing apparel sporting the slogans of a president who denigrates the lives of immigrants, refugees and people from countries that he describes with indecent words and haphazardly endangers with life-threatening policies ..”

    However, the report does say that only some of the students attended because of faith while others wanted service hours or just to go to Washington so perhaps the MAGA hats were worn only by the latter group of students.

  • So what we have is proof that well connected parents of private school students have the resources to pay for their own official spin and PR. The report was not really by a third party investigator by a disinterested actor. It was done by “hired guns” of the people looking to deny and cover up events. If the report confirmed poor behavior of the students it would have been buried by the people hiring them for the job.

  • Not really a third party report either. Since it was commissioned by the diocese. This was a hired gun producing what they were hired to produce. PR and spin.

  • “Anti white bigotry” = I am annoyed people aren’t kissing my posterior for being white and calling me out for being rude.

  • Isn’t derailing a conversation to discuss an unrelated subject the sign of someone who is dishonest and has nothing of value to contribute.

  • Coming from someone who supports actual religious persecution of groups out of sectarian animosity, I would say your concern for the unborn is nothing but posturing and excuse to be obnoxious.

    You don’t actually care about human lives beyond trying to control them. You want women to be chattel property of the state for deigning to make decisions without asking for your approval.

  • The (apparently) Open-Borders bishop of Lexington has every right, under the 1st amendment, to say what he said. No joke. Same right as those folks who wear MAGA hats.

    Actually, President Trump describes those who seek to **legally** immigrate, pretty decently as far as it goes.

    But the ongoing Honduan-Leftist political invasion-force (which uses poor moms & kids as media human shields), I really don’t think Trump’s ever going to speak very nicely about that mess.
    Nor is Trump thrilled with current MS-13 immigrant contributions to America.)

  • You are wrong on all counts.

    Participating in a march to protest the rampant killing of the weakest and most vulnerable of humans is highly commendable in every way.

    Wearing a hat which advocates making America great again expresses a positive sentiment for the future of our country. Whether or not one considers that a commendable sentiment depends on whether or not one is sympathetic or hostile to America being made great again.

    For teenagers – who are generally inexperienced and immature – they handled the situation remarkably well; far better than the adults who were aggressively taunting them with homophobic and racist slurs, and pounding a drum mere inches from their face.

    If they were my children, I would be extremely proud of them!

  • We live in a voyeuristic society and we rush to judgment anytime someone catches an unguarded moment on their phone. That’s how it is these days.

    But here’s the real takeaway from the Covington Catholic incident. Most short, out of context videos don’t tell us anything of value and they should be ignored. That’s pretty much it.

  • A number of children miscarry naturally for many different reasons.

    It is a part of the normal course of human pregnancies, based on various biological factors which differ from case to case.
    You should ask doctors about the biological specifics. If you don’t like the way our bodies are made, too bad. You are free to return yours to the soil at any time.

    Miscarriages are different than the abortions which are performed by people, which are willful, voluntary, unnecessary, and done for convenience (and profit).

  • Actually, it is YOU who have the constitutional right to pretend that “Great Again” is code for “White Again”, and to so delude yourself.

    Most leftists are prone to that.

  • “A number of children miscarry naturally”

    Since God is the intentional Creator of nature. it must be His intention to abort babies using the processes of nature. So the question still stands. Why does God himself abort a significant percentage of babies?

  • Pro-choicers do NOT approve of killing born children. They respect the right of women to end problem pregnancies for late term serious medical reasons. Brandt is just spouting baloney.

  • Brant avoids answering the question why an omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent deity would allow fetuses to abort spontaneously.

  • LOL,

    This whole thing is a joke. I guess it will be an expensive one for some folks.

    The Tomahawk chop is where we are at here? Pathetic.

  • Should of could of would of? Yes, the BHI’s should not be racist a-holes. The Chief should not have gotten in their face.

    And their response was to do school cheers and basically nothing else. Yea you’re right they really are the party at fault here. sarc/

    The issue with the lawsuit is not whether folks could have done something else. It was deliberate reporting of a lie which resulted in the school closing doxing , death threats and calls to basically ruin these kids lives.

  • They did handle it well. Most people would have at a minimum told the guy to back off and possibly would have tossed the stupid drum if he insisted on beating it one inch from their face.

  • You mean BLM didn’t chant about killing cops? And some of their members have actually acted on that. P-Hats are so nice aren’t they. The P-Hat march was about killing babies and was lead by a bunch of anti-semites.

  • There are signs of aggressive and racist actions. That young man standing so close to the Indian, with that smirk on his face, is something he should be called on. It isn’t only the words. Sometimes it is MAGA hats and smirks.

    I think the kids got involved in something they didn’t know how to handle. And they didn’t choose well. The MAGA hats did not help. Those hats don’t just stand for opposition to abortion – they also stand for a support for racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and an indifference to hurting others to get what one wants.

    It is appalling that a bishop can be so obtuse. You can tell he never raised a child. There is a lesson here for those boys, caught in a situation they did not expect. Matching the ugliness you are given is not a solution Our Lord would approve.

  • “Those hats don’t just stand for opposition to abortion – they also stand for a support for racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and an indifference to hurting others to get what one wants.’

    No they don’t mean what you want them to mean. And the whole point of the lawsuit is an indifference to hurting others. Projection? I’m sure Jesus would approve of the death threats, the threats to their futures, the doxing and the school having to close.

    They actually mean “Make America Great Again” period. Its the USA , free speech,. The BHI’s were repulsive but I also support their right to be repulsive but they have the right to say it. Banging a drum one inch from my face I’m not be so supportive of.

  • What bigotry?

    “Why are all the self styled defenders of the white race, the most pathetic examples of it?”
    -Rev. Jesse Custer

  • “Great Again” is code for “White Again”.

    I see Humpty Dumpty is back…high on his wall, and ready to fall – again:

    “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

  • oH, yes they do. That is how they are used. That is the hat that supports taking children from their parents at the border and not caring enough to even keep up with where they are sent. That is the hat that supports a war in Yemen that has turned into death for innocents because we want to make friends with the Saudi’s so they will support the fight against Iran so that those who are trying to find some justice for Palestinians will have no friends but Israel will. How many Yemeni children must die?

    MAGA sets one against the other. It is absolutely anti-Christian. It denies the common humanity of all by saying we are better, more important. We all matter.

  • Students wearing MAGA hats ARE making a racist statement. It must be so, because I, Humpty Dumpty, say it is so.

  • “PR and spin.”

    And the flood of spontaneous media viciousness toward the Covington kids was …what? Impartial reporting?

  • Re: “Hmmmm…. I see you went into jerk mode instead of following my line of reasoning.” 

    Hmmmm … I saw where you were going with your line of reasoning, and rightfully dismissed it as irrelevant. That it’s sometimes used at sporting events cannot and will never magically mean it can never be used in an offensive way. 

    Re: “Contrary to your statement, I do think it’s wrong to do the chop to an Indian if the intent is malicious.” 

    “Intent” is only part of the equation. Some people are so oblivious to how they treat certain groups, that they’re incapable of forming any discernible “intent” to offend them … they simply neither know nor care about that. At all. 

    Re: “The point of my question is that there are plenty of people who went after the Covington kids for being insensitive but have no problem doing it when they wear their team colors.” 

    I don’t know how much clearer I can be: Your point is irrelevant! That’s Ear. Rel. Uh. Vent. Say it with me: Ir-rel-e-vant. 

    When one does the tomahawk chop in the faces of native Americans, it will almost certainly offend them. Doing it at sporting events does not change that. It simply doesn’t! 

    FYI I wouldn’t even do it at a sporting event. But hey, that’s just me. 

  • I say p-hats are code for “I want to blow up the White House.”

    Oh wait, that was no code at all. One of the p-hats actually said that, while the rest of the p-hats cheered.

  • I don’t know of how many other groups have the resources or desire to hire PR firms and official spin doctors to try and salvage their reputation like this group did.

    But calling this a “3rd party” report is a deliberate misrepresentation for what is essentially “hired gun” work.

    Those kids obviously can defend themselves and have the resources to do so, at the cost of facts and eyewitness accounts.

  • So I can be insensitive if part of a group, but not one-on-one.
    I’m surprised you would be agreeable to that; because I wouldn’t.
    Ok. Later.

  • It helps when you complain about the labels, but do not refute them in any way.

    It makes one a whiner and does nothing to forward a counter argument.

  • Re: “So I can be insensitive if part of a group, but not one-on-one.” 

    That’s not it, at all. Thanks for misrepresenting what I said. I was right about you: You are, in fact, rationalizing engaging in offensive behavior. 

    Re: “I’m surprised you would be agreeable to that; because I wouldn’t.” 

    I don’t agree with that at all ’cause that’s not what I said. Not even close! That’s just your intentional misstatement of what I said. 

    I already told you, I was WAAAAAAAY ahead of you. And I still am. I know what your game is: You want to make the “tomahawk chop” into some namby pamby thing that no one should be offended by, and when they are, it’s because they’re being unreasonable or something. 

    I get that being offensive is important to you. It’s how you deal with your own insecurities and inadequacies: You need to put others down in order to feel better about yourself. And when you do, you need to make it seem as though they are the ones who’re unreasonable and who’re (somehow, magically) oppressing you, should they call you out on your offensiveness. 

    I really get it. I’ve seen it before … and unfortunately will see a lot more of it in the future. 

  • All the “whining” I hear is coming from the Progressive side of the aisle (about Conservatives’ degenerate morality). My CRITICISM is that claiming moral superiority is not an “argument” – it’s a preachment. Sermonistic denunciations may rouse or encourage the faithful. They do not advance the discussion. They’re not intended to. They’re intended to end it.

  • I actually think both are offensive. I was trying to have a discussion with you to get to some more detailed points that I was thinking about about whether the kids thought the chop was ok because being from the south; they probably have been around this from early on.
    But you are waaaaay ahead of me to the point of being a dick; I’ll end it here.

  • You missed the point in terms of confusing politics and religion. As do apparently a lot of folks. Is the pro-life March faith based or political? Why quote the Bible in support of a position against abortion when the Bible is ignored with respect with what it says with respect to foreigners, sojourners and strangers?

    And the ‘open-borders’ is not a solitary voice in the Catholic church.

  • I answered on the topic of miscarriages. A natural phenomenon that has many causes. It is not possible to list or even know what they may be.

  • All the whining is coming from you.

    I get it, your feelings are hurt about being called out for supporting immoral and repugnant things. But some things are more important than your feelings and ego.

    Your criticism is simply lashing out because a particularly repulsive view is being criticized for being repulsive. You have nothing of value to say here. There is no discussion here worth having.

    I have never seen someone use the term “anti-white” who wasn’t a white supremacist at heart. A racist with a thin skin. I am not looking for debate here. None is necessary for simply a description.

  • Medical science indicates that miscarriages occur for quite a number of reasons.

    Ask an obstetrician if you want some reasons why they occur.

  • Re: “I actually think both are offensive.” 

    Yeah right. 

    Re: “I was trying to have a discussion with you to get to some more detailed points that I was thinking about …” 

    It’s not that hard to figure out what I said about this. I mean, really, it’s not. I will repeat: Doing the tomahawk chop in the faces of native Americans is very likely to offend them. All your irrelevant crap about Atlanta baseball games, cannot and will never magically change that. It just doesn’t. This is much simpler than you want it to be. And I get why: You’re muddying the issue in order to make it seem much less serious than it is, and to paint those who point out that the tomahawk chop can be offensive, as unreasonable for saying so, ’cause it happens at baseball games. 

    Re: “… whether the kids thought the chop was ok because being from the south …” 

    As Southerners from an extremely Right-wing area, yeah, I completely buy that they’re totally oblivious to the possibility that it’s offensive. Yup. I get that. I even pointed that out, too, when I said that some people are so coolly unaware of the offensive nature of things that they can’t even formulate a clear “intent” to offend. 

    That, however, doesn’t absolve them of any responsibility for their offensiveness. It means, instead, they need to grow up and understand what the hell they’re doing. 

    Re: “But you are waaaaay ahead of me to the point of being a dick; I’ll end it here.” 

    The person who’s trying to rationalize doing the tomahawk chop in the faces of native Americans, is calling me a “dick”? Wow. Pot, kettle, black, dude. 

  • I never support the persecution of other religious groups.

    I will strongly disagree with their errors, though, and will not mince any words about it.

    Perhaps you consider strongly disagreeing with someone a form of “persecution”.

    That would explain a lot about you.

  • You are not answering the question. You are sidestepping it and avoiding it. In effect, you are admitting that you have no answer for the question.

  • As your citation said:

    “Like most professional athletic appropriations of Native American culture, the tomahawk chop and the war chant have little basis in Native American history.”

    Actually this one had no basis in Native American history, which means if a Native American takes offense, she or he is clueless.

  • “If they’re from Kentucky, then they likely are unaware it’s offensive.”

    If they’re planet Earth, they probably think it’s inoffensive.

    And what in the world are you trying to say about Kentucky?

  • No, as with Kavanaugh which you also tried to spin, what have here is proof that if there is NO EVIDENCE, there is NO CASE.

    You and your buds have had the cheese slip off your crackers.

  • Making America Great is anti-Christian?

    Even for you this a pretty zany take.

    You’ll probably get further with it over at Bilgrimage where they’re convinced this is an expensive whitewash by some sinister manly men shadow group.

  • They were waiting for their friggin’ bus in a public place minding their own business.

    The crazy man with the drum was breaking DC law by doing what he did, walking up into their faces and trying to get them either afraid or to move.

    The only error made on the part of their chaperones was not having DC police in their phone directories. Native always keep the DC police number close at hand given the number of crazies per square mile.

  • So, you admit you’re working for a PR firm with spin doctors to keep this false narrative going.


  • If the Virginia Governor had donned blackface last week, I think he would be required to resign.

    As to Native Americans, this particular Native American walked a considerable distance and got in these minors faces.

    After this incident, he went up to the Basilica of the Assumption and tried to interrupt Catholic Mass.


    If you’re looking for a Native American hero, you’ll need to look elsewhere.

  • I respect Sandmann standing firm in protest of bad Indian drum banging.
    He exercised his right to free speech.

  • No.

    You hate Trump.

    You believe Trump to be a racist.

    Make America Great Again was his campaign slogan.

    Ergo, MAGA hats are racist statements.

    In the real world that is not true.

    In the real world making America great is a noble sentiment.

    Calling people “Deplorables” is the bigotry.

  • Dude, you’re wasting your time. She bases everything on race and gender.
    If the Covington kids would have been wearing rainbow or pu$$y hats; and the Indian drum banger guy came up to bother them – she’d be talking about how men are brutes.

  • So, they approve of killing unborn children. No argument there.

    On one side of the birth canal potential revenue source for Planned Parenthood.

    On the other side of the birth canal rights (although apparently not if they got there through a botched abortion).

    It’s the famous Magical Birth Canal:


  • God creates life. God permits it to end. God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.

    Permiting an abortion to occur by natural processes is not the same thing as pulling the human life in the womb apart with forceps.

    If you happen to run into an abortionist who can create life, we can pick this back up again, Permanently Offended Guy.

  • Cuomo and the state of NY beg to differ. The blackface governor of VA confirmed the path the dems are on.

  • You wanted to know why God allows miscarriages to occur.

    An obstetrician can provide some of the medical reasons as to why thy occur.

    I don’t know of any other source that could provide some answers as to why they occur.

    Do you?

  • Better yet, why would an omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent deity permit you to be born? Having made that mistake, why would it allow you to post here?

    The answer probably lies in why does it permit flies.

    The creation is damaged. The deity didn’t do it.

  • If you can point us to his clinic, we’ll ask him.

    A better question is why he permitted you to be be born.

  • He doesn’t.
    Free will introduced sin into the world. Sin destroys everything.
    There’s a difference between dying of cancer and being murdered – no?
    Natural death vs death at the hands of another.
    And you seem so smart….

  • “Persons” is a legal term. It changes with time and place.

    Blacks and Indians were at one time not persons in the USA.

    Corporations are persons in the USA.

    Now, human life on the other hand …

  • The children were permitted to go there to support the Right to Life.

    Any rights which contradict that right are as specious as the Third Reich’s “right” to eliminate undesirables.

  • Ah, Bishop John Stowe:


    “SOUTH BEND, Indiana, January 28, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – A famously pro-gay Catholic bishop is slated to lead an ‘LGBTQ retreat’ next weekend at the University of Notre Dame. “

    “At the retreat, Bishop John Stowe of Lexington, Kentucky ‘will be integrating sexual orientation and faith from a Scriptural and Biblical perspective,’ according to an online description provided by the University’s Gender Relations Center (GRC). The University’s Campus Ministry is a cosponsor.”

    “LifeSiteNews reached out to Bishop Stowe requesting an explanation of what it means to integrate ‘sexual orientation and faith,’ but he declined through his spokesman.”

  • No, I said that Christians are going to be outspoken in defending the truth of the faith against erroneous teachings; I never advocated any sort of persecutory actions.

    In that article -as here – you persistently conflate disagreement with persecution, as if to disagree with someone and attack their errors was some sort of “persecution”.

    As I said, this explains a lot about you.

  • Susan is a real left wing atheistic piece of work.

    I am just waiting for her to try to explain why law-abiding should miss their chartered bus because a loony with a drum gets in their faces.

  • The answer as to why God allows miscarriages to occur is a medical and biological answer.

    It is tied to the nature of human pregnancies, which is a medical topic.

    What the heck kind of answer are you looking for?

    Where do you think the answer for the question as to why God allows miscarriages to occur would be, other than in the field of the biology of the human body?

  • The ultimate destination seems to be this: If God can take life, why can’t we?

    And now, we’re back in Genesis. Sigh…

  • Mark/Bob, the National Catholic Educational Association has reported that only 60% of teachers in Catholic high schools agree with the Vatican that abortions are always or usually immoral. Maybe you should worry about that instead of arguing with me. And the idea that the Covington kids were not sent by their school,is absurd.

  • Explain in simple English what bearing your poll might have on the unchangeable solemn teaching, almost 2,000 years old, of the Catholic Church that abortion is a most grievous offense against God and his laws.

    If we get enough votes can we repeal the prohibition against murder?

    The minor children paid their own way to Washington, DC.

    They were accompanied by chaperones to ensure their safety.

    The notion they were “sent by their school” is absurd.

  • Speaking of dips, how are you doing these days?

    Edd, you’re doing theology by taking polls.

    That hardly qualifies you to critique your betters who actually know a bit of theology.

  • Oh, you mean “Personhood is a commonly used meaningless euphemism used to confuse the simple facts in the abortion debate.”

    If the Constitution were amended to call the unborn “persons”, they’d be persons just like corporations.

    We’re looking for light and clarity, not buckets of BS.

  • But your omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent deity chooses not to intervene but his followers may intervene against the consciences of women. Rick has tied himself in knots.

  • Human biology follows its natural path. Deal with it.

    Abortionists choose to intervene to kill the innocent and helpless.

    The only knots are in your own mind.

  • I’m still waiting for the explanation of how the gazillion pieces of matter came to be….
    It’s been at least 4 days and she must still be thinking….

  • Speaking of which, where can I get one of those? You know, “The MAGA hats”? Do they come in green? How about black? And is there a Swedish version? How about a non-alphabet version, say, in Hindi or Korean? And what’s the ugliest hat you’ve ever worn? Does your head fit all sizes of “The MAGA hats”?

  • You’re “derailing”, so … hey, where did you go, Cruddie?

    Cruddie, where are you “derailing” off to now?

  • You can dismiss Bishop Stowe but he certainly is not the only Catholic bishop to say the same. Hence the small excerpt from the Pope’s address to Congress. Only picked because he was local. And throwing out Bishop Stowe’s position on LGBTQ persons as a reason to dismiss does not change the point of intermingling politics at presumably an apolitical event.

  • Talking about tomahawk chops which Sandy nor you does not think is offensive but many, many American Indians do .

    It appears you are inferring malicious intent with respect to Mr. Philips – I am glad you can apparently mind-read. And not after but later, he went to the Basilica. The Catholic News agency makes it clearer as to the reasons for this action.

  • The only reason why anyone, these children or anyone else, should consider the “tomahawk chop” offensive is if it is objectively offensive. While you assert “many American Indians do”, you have no evidence. You cited an article that made it clear it had no basis in Native American lore.

    At that point we’re down to a choice:

    Are we going to allow Permanently Offended Guys to about the country virtue-vetoing everything they happen to dislike?

    Or are we going to suggest to them that they go in woods and tell the trees about it?

    I personally vote for the latter.

    More offensive by far is attacking high school students harming no one by applying this absurd ex post facto prissiness on them. It’s time for that to end.

    As far as Phillips goes, the evidence at this point is that he and his friends made a trip to DC specifically to be disruptive. He has been claiming for some years to be a Vietnam War veteran, which he is not, he has been wearing medals and ribbons he did not earn, and appears to be a good candidate for a pysche evaluation at the VA.


    The young fellow Sandmann, and his friends, have been put through a mean-spirited meat grinder by pecksniffs and Trump-haters who should be ashamed themselves.

    To quote Joseph Welch to Senator Joseph McCarthy June 9, 1954,”Let us not assassinate this lad further …. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?”

  • The question is not whether you, Bishop Stowe, or an assembly of lunatics and pecksniffs wearing pussy hats say “XYZ”.

    25% of the American public would take an oath that the sun revolves around the earth.–abc-news-topstories.html

    The question is whether “XYZ” is true.

    The answer is “no”.

    These young boys were done with the March, getting ready to head home, minding their own business, waiting for a bus.

    I would suggest to you, and to Bishop Stowe, and the rest of these nittering nabobs of negativism and paragons of pecksniffian that you drop it, even if you lack the integrity to admit you went off half-cocked and tried to virtue signal some kids into oblivion.

  • “You don’t actually care about human lives beyond trying to control them.
    You want women to be chattel property of the state for deigning to make
    decisions without asking for your approval.”

    So, you’re admitting the fetus is a human life, and you’re admitting that you place that life’s value lower than what any women wants.

    I am so glad we finally got that settled.

  • Calling people who are not white supremacist snowlflakes, like calling people Nazis who are not, is not having good moral values.

    It’s being an annoying little git.

  • “The cold fact is that, sometimes, it is offensive.”

    The cold fact is that you and your fellow left wing progressive virtue signalers find it offensive.

    You find it offensive because it is convenient to find it offensive.

    Having been made to look like fools – which you are – for piling on a mean erroneous spin on a tiny segment of a 2-hour series of events, you’re now trying to assemble a fig leaf to put over your stupidity.

    People of character and integrity would ‘fess up, or at least say “oops!”, but noooo.

    As Joseph Welch to Senator Joseph McCarthy June 9, 1954,”Let us not assassinate this lad further …. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?”

    If you do, you’ll drop it.

  • It may not be moral, but I personally think it’s quite funny when the libs try to co-opt “snowflake,” because every time it’s uttered it calls up the same image of sobbing and tantrumming Dems on the night of Nov 8 2016.

    And will continue to do so until people no longer remember the Dems’ most embarrassing moment — which will be quite a while yet. 😀

  • You mean the seminars you hear about from talk radio figures who have never seen the inside of a college.

  • You are advocating persecution right now. Looking for excuses to either ignore or support actions against the JWs. One does not denounce persecution by attacking its victims.

    Nobody has to care if you or others consider their belief “erroneous”. They are being jailed for simply having a given set of religious beliefs. You are focusing on what can only be construed as an argument for either indifference to such persecution or support if it.

  • I mean the ones the colleges themselves promote to their students.

    Surprised you’re not teaching one.

  • You better take another reading comprehension course.

    “I never advocated any sort of persecutory actions.”

    That should be clear to all but the most brainwashed.

    Only a real snowflake would equate disagreement with persecution.

    And, of course, that is what you constantly do.

  • Always take virtue-signaling as the warning sign that it generally is of dishonesty and malice — two of Spuddie’s primary preoccupations, not surprisingly.

  • You contradict yourself and show your true intentions here. Showing concern for those persecuted doesn’t involve attacking their beliefs (which in general supports their persecutors). They involve showing some concern for the actions taken against them.

    You apparently are saying in one form or another, its OK for groups to be persecuted for religious beliefs you consider “wrong”

  • Spuddie thinks that “I never advocated any sort of persecutory actions” means “its OK for groups to be persecuted”.

    When all else fails, Spuddie the Mind Reader will claim that “yes” means “no”, that “black” is actually “white”, and that what you REALLY believe is the exact opposite of what you have said.

    She could get a job at a carnival.

    “Step right up, the amazing Spuddie will now read your mind, and tell everyone what you REALLY think!”

  • I can’t help it if you do everything which points to supporting persecution. You make excuses for the regime doing it, play denial games and attack its victims. Its not mind reading, its just plain reading. Your canned excuses and equivocation lack credibility,

  • Yup. Said the “group” discussed invoking the 25th amendment. Rosenstein is going to be all over the news soon.
    Admit it – this is right up there with Johnson having Kennedy killed.
    Always the democrats up to no good.

  • The 25th Amendment is there for a reason.

    One that became more apparent with the incompetent and irrational actions taken by our president since taking office. Including trying to invoke Emergency Powers because he couldn’t get his vanity project funded by Congress.

    Admit it, you will make up any excuse to support some pretty objectively terrible things done by our current leaders and his party.

    ” this is right up there with Johnson having Kennedy killed.”

    LMAO! In the future, write your posts before consuming intoxicants, not afterwards.

    Besides everyone knows Jackie did it.

  • I’ve always noticed the people most likely to be fetus worshipers are those who support all sorts of nastiness against people in general.

    One would think its somehow a contradiction or hypocrisy. But that is only if one is fooled into thinking their position is based on concern for life.

    It never has to do with “protecting the unborn”. It has to do with the inherent actions taken to do so, turning a woman’s body into property of the state. Hostility towards the rights and loves of people. Just like every other part of their social agenda.

    That and acting like a horse’s posterior whenever possible and trolling opponents with proclamations of their self perceived delusions of moral authority.

  • Nastiness is killing innocent life.
    Everything else means nothing if you don’t worry about life.
    You find offensive the visual of a teenager smirking at an Indian.
    I find offensive the visual of a baby in the womb squirming as forceps are jammed into its head as it’s life is to be taken.
    Don’t even try to use the word nasty.

  • Nope. Not what the 25th was meant to be used for.
    Call it what it is – an attempt by those who think they know better to overturn an election.
    They should be executed in Lafayette Park.

  • I find it funny that people talking about the possibility of exercise of a constitutional amendment are claiming it is somehow unconstitutional. Really????

    If you have issues with the 25th Amendment, ask your local representative to work to repeal it.

  • Much like what you advocate for women who have troubled pregnancies. Its amazing how you look for excuses not to show concern for people.

    Nastiness is supporting attacks on people, not just worrying about the “innocent”.

    I find offense in expressions of bigotry. Stuff you make excuses for.

    “I find offensive the visual of a baby in the womb squirming as forceps are jammed into its head as it’s life is to be taken. ”

    Which means you are offended by fictional things. Babies are born.

    You have zero concern for people, so frankly your outrage here is phony posturing. Not buying it. You are not offended by it at all. You revel in it and love talking about it. It makes you feel important and full of self-righteous glee.

    People concerned with life don’t advocate turning people into property of the state as you would.

  • Let’s not forget to mention how trump derangement syndrome (the triggering hats) were used as a trigger with the alleged assault on Jussie smollett.
    He refers to the hat in the “attack”.
    Turns out the whole thing is a hoax perpetrated by Jussie and his buddies.

  • Oh, a few postings ago, you stated this never occurred.
    Now you affirm it did; but that it is legit.
    Wow, you are slow and predictable.

  • Most abortions are for convenience.
    Guttmacher institute data states so.
    Nothing else matters.
    Thank you – next.

  • Parker, that is no answer to the real devastation that is happening in Yemen, to the starvation of non-combatants, especially children.

  • That young man was standing there too close to be anything but aggressive and with a smirking grin on his face – his action was aggressive. There was another choice he could have made. he and his friends could have left. Oh, and where were the chaperones? You know, the adults who were supposed to be helping these kids deal with a crowd of people that included those who agree with them and those who don’t?

    These kids need to have someone tell them their behavior was wrong. They don’t need to have adults encourage them to do the same thing all over again. They need to hear from adults about alternative ways to behave.

  • What about Syria?
    What about Libya?
    BHO foreign excursions….
    Just wondering…

    And since were talking about MAGA hats implying racism and hatred; let’s talk about the racist movie actors who put on hoax’s to disparage Trump supporters.

  • No, making America great is good. But being great is not fomenting hatred and fear based on religion, especially that hatred aimed against Jewish people and people of Islam, nor ethnic origin, especially Hispanic people, nor skin color, especially when applied to Black Americans. And that is what Trump has fomented with the way he has used the MAGA idea. He has tied it to racism and xenophobia by what he has said, done, and failed to do.

    Don’t play innocent. You know it as well as I do. Don’t defend the indefensible. Or, do you really agree with Trump’s idea of what will make America great is to keep people from #$&*-hole countries out of the U.S.? Go ahead and admit it if you do. But don’t claim to be a follower of Jesus or a believer in the ideals of this country.

  • “…see recent events in New York and Virginia.”

    the “events” in new york and virginia are republicans willfully misrepresenting the meaning and the purpose of legislation .

    abortion of viable, fully formed, healthy….just does not happen . late term abortions of in the context of medical emergencies .

    the only *rap here is your comment .

  • New York State law formerly allowed late term abortions when the mother’s life was at risk.

    Now that has been changed to “when the procedure is necessary to protect the patient’s life or health”, a much more malleable phrase which could easily cover all sorts of reasons in the hands of a complicit “health care professional”.

    Yep, the new law is going to be a gold mine for abortion providers as well as “health care professionals” who will be well paid coming up with all sorts of specious reasons as to why an abortion is “needed” for the “health” of the patient.

    But is is amusing that they say “patient” and not “mother”. Why avoid the obvious term “mother”? Do they envisage a scenario when they would be giving an abortion to a “father”?

  • As Ronald Reagan once said, “There you go again” – equating disagreement with an “attack”.

    You really can’t help yourself, can you?

  • Its not disagreement at all, its criticism of what you seem to find important on an issue. How it runs counter to anyone with an actual concern for it.

  • And you’ve run out of names to call, so you keep repeating the stale, feckless ones you’ve already used up.
    My “point” has been made repeatedly. But since the point was that you are a self-righteous, sanctimonious poser, who makes virtue-signaling a surrogate for argument — I can see why you might be reluctant to actually engage it.

  • Still here? 🙂

    I have not run out of names to call you. But you never had much to say about how accurate they are. Only that you are annoyed at the labels. Lazy garbage to say the least. If you don’t like being labeled a bigot, refute its accuracy. Don’t complain about the label.

  • Poor Rick can’t really answer my question, so he just goes stumbling along attacking women’s rights.

  • All we get from Mark/Bob, he of the multiple identities, is ” basura.” Poor Mark/Bob doesn’t really know how to cope with the fact that most of his fellow Catholics do not agree with him.

  • and prevented abortions when the fetus has no chance of survival outside of the womb .

    the new law is a gold mine for the anti-abortion groups who will fun

    raise the heck out of their misrepresentations of the law .

    you really think that a pregnant woman is going to wait for the last
    moment of a pregnancy to terminate ? that someone in the 30th or 35th
    week will without serious problem would then say ‘oh, gosh, i guess i
    really don’t want to have a child’ ?


    is the case is this right wing nonsense happens because the argument for
    abortion generally has been lost by those opposed . so we now get the
    ad hominem arguments with raw emotion but no reality .

    you want fewer abortions, support better and effective contraception .

  • Well, Thomas Aquinas, the church’s top theologian, did not buy this nonsense of personhood at conception.

  • 1 – Thomas Aquinas was not a scientist. He was a theologian who operated with pre-scientific knowledge. Today we know that a human life commences with conception and ends with death.

    2 – He did not use the term “personhood” or its Latin equivalent. “Personhood” is a legal term, not a theological term, not a scientific term.

    3 – Not everything Thomas Aquinas deduced became Catholic doctrine. It is his process of theologizing that the Catholic Church endorses, not every conclusion he reached.

    You should stick what you know, whatever that is.

  • If my name was Little Bo Peep, it would have no relevance whatsoever to what I post. The reason why you harp on it, as do a couple of others, is that you’re trying to avoid looking like you’re losing every discussion, which of course you are.

    For those who wonder, “basura” is Spanish for “trash”. Edd when he was still contributing to society taught high school Spanish.

    Edd does like to dress up his comments with irrelevant quotes from Jefferson, and now a little Spanish, but as they say in Spanish “La mona aunque se vista de seda, mona se queda.”

  • “I have not run out of names to call you.”

    Lol. Come up with some new ones, then. Show some creativity.

    While I wait for some novelty in your imprecations, your dedication to missing the point would be admirable – if it were applied to an honorable purpose. For the nth time: I don’t care WHAT you call me; I care THAT you push your moral posturing forward as a substitute for rhetoric. It’s not.

  • I have no problem with a number of forms of contraception.

    Try again.

    Behind all the blather about “women’s rights” and “health care for women” lies the harsh reality that abortion is the unjust killing of innocent humans, which constitutes one of the greatest human rights violations of the current age.

  • 1 – Who cares? We’re discussing facts, not polls.

    2 – If they support abortion, and were given the opportunity to know better, they may encounter issues as the end of this road.

    You must be best buds with Patricia Miller.

  • Little Eddie can’t understand an answer that is too deep for him. He just keeps babbling.

    And he calls killing the most helpless among us a “right”.

  • These boys were not fomenting fear and hatred.

    Trump has been the best President for Israel in a decade.

    His son-in-law is Jewish.

    The slander that he hates Hispanic or Black Americans is just that, a slander. Your side tied MAGA it to racism and xenophobia as a propaganda tool, and now – like the false narrative on these young men – are stuck with defending it.

    Don’t defend the indefensible, beating on minors to satisfy irrational fears aimed at the President.

    These young men should be enjoying the best years of their lives, not getting death threats thanks to over-the-top false accusations that, in face of the facts, should drop but are being kept alive by haters and biddies.

  • That young man was standing still. The taller much older man with a weapon in his hand using it to beat a drum closed the distance between himself and young man, so if they were too close, blame the loony.

    The chaperones thought the boys were doing what they were supposed to do – standing waiting for their bus. They did not approach either the lunatic in their face or the blacks hurling insults.

    Someone needs to tell you, Bill Lindsey, Alexandra, et al that there was nothing wrong with their behavior, to put a sock in it, to knock off the posing, and join the rest of the world in ‘fessing up it was a propaganda stunt that backfired.


    disdain – verb

    The feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one’s consideration or respect.

    Let’s see if that fits:

    1 – Thomas Aquinas was not a scientist. He was a theologian who operated with pre-scientific knowledge. Today we know that a human life commences with conception and ends with death.

    2 – He did not use the term “personhood” or its Latin equivalent. “Personhood” is a legal term, not a theological term, not a scientific term.

    3 – Not everything Thomas Aquinas deduced became Catholic doctrine. It is his process of theologizing that the Catholic Church endorses, not every conclusion he reached.


    Nope, it doesn’t fit.

    Anything else?

  • As you well know, I do not hand out personal information on the internet.

    My arguments stand on their own two feet.

  • Jefferson was swell, despite dipping his pen in the slave servant inkwell and being somewhat opinionated.

    You’ve avoided his words in the Declaration of Independence, so that is not at issue.

    My only objection is your misuse of a letter of his to “prove” that 1+1=3. But you know that was and remains a propaganda ploy.

  • “It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.” – William Tecumseh Sherman

    Are you looking for the light fluffy version of war?

    There isn’t one.

  • “Much like what you advocate for women who have troubled pregnancies.”

    “Troubled pregnancies” are a tiny portion of abortions.

    Most are simply birth control.

  • https://www{DOT}

    Alan Morton Dershowitz is an American lawyer and academic. He is a scholar of United States constitutional law and criminal law, a noted civil libertarian and at Harvard Law School at the age of 28 he became the youngest full professor of law in its history.

    A political liberal, he is the author of a number of books about politics and the law,

  • Some of the references used to prepare The Great Kibosh of All Religions:

    1. Historical Jesus Theories, – the names of many of the
    contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the titles of their over 100 books
    on the subject.
    2. Early Christian Writings,
    – a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication–

    0-60 CE Passion Narrative
    40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q

    50-60 1 Thessalonians

    50-60 Philippians

    50-60 Galatians

    50-60 1 Corinthians

    50-60 2 Corinthians

    50-60 Romans

    50-60 Philemon

    50-80 Colossians

    50-90 Signs Gospel

    50-95 Book of Hebrews

    50-120 Didache

    50-140 Gospel of Thomas

    50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel

    50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ

    65-80 Gospel of Mark

    70-100 Epistle of James

    70-120 Egerton Gospel

    70-160 Gospel of Peter

    70-160 Secret Mark

    70-200 Fayyum Fragment

    70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs

    73-200 Mara Bar Serapion

    80-100 2 Thessalonians

    80-100 Ephesians

    80-100 Gospel of Matthew

    80-110 1 Peter

    80-120 Epistle of Barnabas

    80-130 Gospel of Luke

    80-130 Acts of the Apostles

    80-140 1 Clement

    80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians

    80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews

    80-250 Christian Sibyllines

    90-95 Apocalypse of John

    90-120 Gospel of John

    90-120 1 John

    90-120 2 John

    90-120 3 John

    90-120 Epistle of Jude

    93 Flavius Josephus

    100-150 1 Timothy

    100-150 2 Timothy

    100-150 T-itus

    100-150 Apocalypse of Peter

    100-150 Secret Book of James

    100-150 Preaching of Peter

    100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites

    100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans

    100-160 Shepherd of Hermas

    100-160 2 Peter

    4. Jesus Database, –”The JESUS DATABASE is an
    online a-nnotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings
    of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era.
    It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to
    the traditions found within the Christian New Testament.”

    5. Josephus on Jesus

    6. The Jesus Seminar,

    – books on the health and illness during the time of the NT

    8. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman,
    Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.

    9.The Gnostic Jesus

    (Part One in a Two-Part Series on A-ncient and Modern G-nosticism)

    by Douglas Groothuis:
    http://www.equip.o-rg/articles/gnosticism-and-the-gnostic-jesus/10. The
    interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission

    Presented on March 18, 1994

    11. The Jesus Database- newer site:

    12. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:

    13. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:

    13. Historical Jesus Studies

    14. The Greek New Testament:

  • You are right. I sent two letters, one to Bishop Foys and one to Rev. Muller. Both tried to defend the boys and the school with ridiculous arguments. I pointed out the errors: 1. attending the “March for Life” as a school sanctioned trip 2. Wearing MAGA hats was a provocative act, asking for trouble 3. being advised by the adult with them to respond with school chants 4. not using the issue as a teaching/educational moment to discuss what went wrong

  • That’s hilarious, the aging atheist preaching to two Catholic bishops.

    No facts.

    Complete disregard of why Catholics might support the March for Life.

    I am sure you’re now in the “whacko” file in both dioceses.

  • There is zero support that the Church hid sexual offenders.

    There is evidence that some percentage of its clergy did as person decisions contrary to that church’s Canon Law.

  • He was in his face, smirking. And, he could have backed off. He also had choices. That is what he needs to understand. He made an uncomfortable situation worse , not better.

    I want these kids to understand what they did wrong. I do not want some egregious punishment meted out. But, we must not excuse actions they took which made a tense situation even worse.

  • EDD DOERR (January 22, 2019): “DNA co-discoverer Francis Crick … whom I knew personally … was among the 12 Nobel laureates and 155 other scientists who advised the Supreme Court years ago that human personhood was not possible until permitted by brain development some time after 28-32 weeks of gestation.”

    FRANCIS CRICK (quoted by Matt Ridley, 2006): “In the long run, it is unavoidable that society will begin to worry about the character of the next generation … It is not a subject at the moment which we can tackle easily because people have so many religious beliefs and until we have a more uniform view of ourselves I think it would be risky to try and do anything in the way of EUGENICS … I would be astonished if, in the next 100 or 200 years, society did not come round to the view that they would have to try to improve the next generation in some extent or one way or another.”

    THE AMERICAN COUNCIL ON SCIENCE AND HEALTH (September 29, 2016): “[Jim] Watson And Crick Did Not Discover DNA”!

  • “He was in his face”

    As both the pictures and video illustrate, this boy was standing there. It was Nathan Phillips who closed the distance from afar, who got and stayed in the boy’s face.


    Bemused. If you’re from town of 40,000 or so you’ve never seen a man inches taller than you, 55 years older than you, dressed like something from a movie, walk up to you banging on a drum, and get in your face.

    “And, he could have backed off.”

    And why should he? Why should a citizen minding his own business waiting for a bus have to do anything but continue to wait for his bus?

    “He also had choices. That is what he needs to understand.”

    He did make choices. He choose not to move. That is what a citizen conducting himself lawfully in a public space does. It is what I would have done.

    You’re the one who needs to understand.

    “He made an uncomfortable situation worse, not better.”

    He did nothing. He did not one thing.

    “I want these kids to understand what they did wrong.”

    No, you want to pretend you and your friends did not make an egregiously bad call.

  • These boys added to a tense situation. What they need to learn is how to handle that kind of situation without adding to tension and ugliness. Don’t excuse their bad behavior and deny them a chance to learn.

    Trump’s tactic in the Middle East is to create hatred of those who don’t support Israel. Shoot, Trump makes it a point to create hatred. it is a tool he uses to manipulate people. But the cost in making friends of Saudi Arabia, is supporting the killing thousands of innocents in Yemen, defending Saudi leadership in the brutal killing of an American resident.
    Don’t forget that the radical Saudi’s produced Osama bin Laden – remember him? Trump may get us out of Syria – but we will again have enormous instability, made worse by breaking the international agreement regarding Iran and by supporting the Saudi’s in Yemen.

    I want Israel to exist. But I want there to be room for the people who lived in what was called Palestine when the Jewish State was established. Don’t have the answer but do know that what is being done by Israel is not creating a place for Palestinians. It will not help the Palestinians to make a target of Iran. I do think that Jerusalem needs to be an international city – not “owned” by Israel, but co-managed along with Christians and Muslims, for whom this city is also sacred. Recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is not helping.

  • “These boys added to a tense situation. What they need to learn is how to handle that kind of situation without adding to tension and ugliness.”

    There was no tense situation. There were a group of black loonies shouting obscenities from a distance.

    The boys paid no attention.

    There was a lunatic dressed like someone’s idea of an Indian chanting and banging on a drum.

    The boys paid no attention.

    The lunatic with drum marched right up in their faces and banged and chanted.

    They still did nothing.

    “Don’t excuse their bad behavior …”

    What bad behavior?

    The only bad behavior was from people other than the boys and various loonies who have been pillorying them since.

    “…. and deny them a chance to learn.”

    Learn that people like yourself will make them a stand-in for the people they hate and pillory them? I think they’ve got that figured out.

    “Trump’s tactic in the Middle East is to create hatred of those who don’t support Israel.”

    While the Democrats create hatred for those who do support Israel.

    “Shoot, Trump makes it a point to create hatred.”

    As the comments from the Alternet and Bilgrimage folks here are making clear, there are some other folks making it a point create hatred.

    “But the cost in making friends of Saudi Arabia, is supporting the killing thousands of innocents in Yemen, defending Saudi leadership in the brutal killing of an American resident.”

    Innocent people die in every war. Read about Sherman’s march to the sea in the Civil War.

    He was not an American resident. He was a Saudi citizen in Turkey.

    Anyway, lay off the boys.

    You and your friends got it wrong and it’s time to let go of it even if you lack the integrity to admit the error.

  • The “Diocese of Covington naturally dismisses the video of the MAGA-hat wearing teens yelling at women on the mall….because that is what these brats…er…teenagers were sent to Washington to do…participate in the March For Forced Birth and tell grown-up women what to do with their bodies. It’s called “misogyny” my dear celibate males in long funny dresses.

    This Diocese also seems to have ignored the video of one young man clearly saying that: “it’s not rape if you enjoy it”. Such a typical catholic high school male…taught that women are inferior beings, only put on this earth to breed.

  • You call that “rigorous historic testing”? It’s a loose listing of some people who agree with you. The fact that a Theophobe can find other Theophobes to join with in trashing God, means… what, exactly? “Misery loves company” would be my answer.

  • Obviously, you did not look at any of the references. For example, the list includes all the gospels and epistles of the NT.

    And to add some other reading material for your perusal:

    15. D-iseases in the Bible:

    Religion on- Line (6000 articles on the h-story of religion, churches,

    theologians, ethics, etc.

    The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT

    Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.

    19. JD Crossan’s c-onclusions about the authencity of most of the
    NT based on the above plus the c-onclusions of other NT exegetes in the last
    200 years:


    20. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by title with the
    complete translated work in English

    21. Luke and Josephus- was there a c-onnection?

    22. NT and beyond time line:

    23. St. Paul’s Time line with discussion of important events:

    24. See for a list of JD Crossan’s books and
    those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and
    selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at
    Google Books.

    25. Father Edward Schillebeeckx’s words of wisdom as found in his

    27. The books of the following : Professors Gerd Ludemann, Marcus
    Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.

    28. Father Raymond Brown’s An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY,
    1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.

    29. Luke Timothy Johnson’s book The Real Jesus

    “Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument
    for Jesus of Nazareth [Hardcover]

    D. Ehrman (Author)

    Large numbers of atheists,
    humanists, and conspiracy theorists are raising one of the most

  • I noted the references. As it happens, I’ve already read “all the gospels and epistles of the NT.” And I’m already familiar with Crossan, Funk, Ehrman, and many others of their ilk. Surely you understand they’re advancing scholarly opinions, which, in turn, are reviewed, rebutted, and rejected by (the opinions of) other scholars, right? Their debate continues to this very hour. Theophobic musings don’t become “rigorous historic” anything just because they come from historians – and seem to support your preconceived convictions.

    But I have to question if you’ve read your own references. Specifically, the article on “The Gnostic Jesus” you cited is by Douglas Groothuis. Groothuis happens to be a friend of mine, and a dedicated Christian advocate and apologist. His article simply details known historical facts about gnostic beliefs, and critiques them from a Christian point of view. Nothing in his material lends support in any way, for any position you have taken.

    How did you come on that article in the first place (are you a regular reader of the Christian Research Journal, where it was published)? And why did you think including it in your list would bolster any point you were trying to make?

  • Summaries such as The Great Kibosh of All Religions requires evaluation of all documentation related to the founders of all the religions. That is why the studies of Groothuis, Brown, Johnson and Wright are included in the historic Jesus section.

    With respect to rigorous historic testing: It does not include the beliefs of the NT exegetes. It includes the number of independent attestations, the time of the publications, the content as it
    relates to the subject and time period, and any related archeological evidence.
    Professors JD Crossan and G. Ludemann’s studies are top notch in this regard.

  • I hadn’t thought of it that way. Poor old man. How mean to use him to promote an agenda against the Catholic Church.

  • I realize you’d like to give the impression you know what you’re talking about with an inflated “document dump.”

    But the question remains why you even included Groothius’s article on your list, because the fact remains that its relationship to anything we were discussing (or any point you’re wanting to make) is zero. It’s an apparently random and completely extraneous presentation of standard historical information about an unrelated (except for the time-period) subject. If that’s what you want to present as an example of “rigorous historical” investigation to invalidate religion, it suggests that your entire list is padded with irrelevances just to create a fatiguing volume of information.

    The Great Kibosh Quash:

    As for Crossan, Funk, and the “Jesus Seminar” – they are a joke. They and their controversial methods are NOT held in high regard by scholars on the other side of that debate. The fact that you DO hold them in high regard only shows that you have joined one side of an ongoing partisan polemic that is not likely to be settled in our lifetime – or in other words, that you have committed yourself to a set of disputed OPINIONS in a continuing controversy. Quit pretending (to the rest of us) that they’re established facts. You can keep pretending that to yourself, of course…as you undoubtedly will. I’m sure it’s a great comfort in a troubling world.

  • The Jesus Seminarians: Contemporary NT exegetes specializing in historic Jesus studies. Requirements to join, typically a PhD in Religious History or Religion with a proven record of
    scholarship through reviews of first to third century CE scripture and related

    Did they ask you to join?

    The ground-breaking work of the Jesus Seminar appears in two texts: The Five
    Gospels (1993) and Acts of Jesus (1998), both published by Polebridge Press.
    The Jesus Seminar was a group of biblical scholars chaired by Robert Funk, PhD.,(now deceased)
    who took the unprecedented step of voting as a group on the authenticity of the
    teachings and acts of Jesus. The following observations are taken from the
    introductory chapters of 5G and AOJ.

    Every individual saying and action was examined and rated by the Seminar as to
    whether Jesus actually said it or did it, or whether it was primarily the
    product of the author of the gospel. Building on the earlier work of individual
    scholars, the Seminar’s research represents an unprecedented cooperative effort
    to separate what Jesus really said and did from what gets added on over time in
    the story telling and writing process.

    In addition to the four Gospels: Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, that we have
    known for two thousand years, the Seminar also included the Gospel of Thomas in
    their considerations. Thomas consists of sayings of Jesus that were discovered
    at Nag Hamadi, along with hundreds of other ancient texts, in a major
    archeological discovery in 1945. Thomas is not in story form, but it is a
    series of sayings. Many of the sayings are very similar to what appear in the
    other four gospels, and it was used by the Seminar as an independent report of
    what Jesus said.

  • I’m waiting to hear something I don’t know already.
    PhDs have religious opinions too, and the Jesus Seminar defends theirs vigorously.
    But they’re still “opinions” – not “facts.”
    Your “Kibosh” is not a dismissal of anything, it’s a statement of dismissive attitudes…period.

  • Obviously, you still have no concept of rigorous historic testing . The two references below should help.

  • No, you advocated discrimination. Spuddie nailed you for it. Get over yourself, and stop trying to silence those you don’t agree with, you co​ward.

  • You have provided not a scintilla of proof, showing yourself to be nothing but a liar. Just as I suspected.

    So shut it.

  • “…no problem with a number of forms of contraception.”

    do you consider a contraceptive that prevents a zygote from implanting in the uterus to be abortion ?

    “…unjust killing of innocent humans….”

    respectfully that also is blather . “human” is a broad word, not necessarily referring to a living human being . in this case you are using the word to suggest that the fetus growing toward birth is morally the same as the born living and breathing human . you believe that, i don’t .

    innocent is a legal word not meaningfully applied to not yet fully formed and yet unable to conceptualize . without the ability to think as an adult human, everything is “innocent” .

    the wars and ethic tensions that force people to leave looking for safety and the yet millions who die : that is the great human rights violations today .

  • Any deliberate human interference after the conception of a human being that results in their death is a wrongful killing.

    We are human from conception to death, regardless of our age and developmental status. This is what we Christians have traditionally believed. You may believe otherwise, but that will not deter us from believing and acting in defense of what we see as human rights.

    Innocent can be properly applied to any human who is not guilty of doing anything wrong.

    Wars and ethnic tensions are indeed great human rights violations.

    That does not negate the fact that abortion is also a great human rights violation, responsible for approximately 56,000,000 deaths each year.

  • And again you offer NO PROOF.

    It is therefore clear that all you have is empty name-calling.

    And no, putting your flaccid comments in blue boldface does not magically make them convincing.

  • You need to change your moniker.

    You’ve never demonstrated you have enough reason to refute me. LOL.