Opinion

Why I sacrificed my chaplain’s job and my reputation to marry a same-sex couple

The Rev. Judy Peterson holds her arms out while leading a service. Photo by Karl Clifton-Soderstrom

CHICAGO (RNS) — I was recently fired from my job as a chaplain at a Christian university for officiating at a same-gender wedding of a former student and colleague.

I was fired because some within my church and my school were shocked that I could be so “scandalous.” Others quickly proclaimed the need to punish my act as treasonous and expel me, “the immoral brethren,” from the church. Still others have practiced the subtler religious art of shunning.

Even as a 48-year-old, heterosexual, married, white, privileged and resourced evangelical, I’ve found that “coming out” in full support of the LGBTQ+ community has been a brutal experience.


RELATED: Evangelical chaplain’s suspension intensifies denomination’s gay marriage debate


All of these responses could be expected from a religious community that believes that purity is the goal of Christian life and that holiness is a fragile condition that must be protected. For me, the goal is to help people know a God who left his privilege behind to put on skin and walk with people in the person of Jesus.

But either way, our disagreement is not nearly as harrowing as its impact on a gay teenager walking this road alone. And the next steps the church takes will have life-and-death consequences.

The Rev. Judy Peterson, center, officiates the wedding of Roel and Marcus Mason-Vivit in 2017. Photo by Jiho/Lilly Photography

Perhaps if you know more of my story, my sense of conviction and urgency will make more sense to you. I was a bit of a miscreant in my early days. I wasn’t the worst, but I was an intentional sinner. When I met Jesus, he invited me to dance with him, no questions asked. When he offered to let me stand on his shoes until I learned the steps, I knew this was the God for me.

I left my job at a bar and entered seminary before I could name all of the books of the Bible. In my second year of study, I felt called to learn how to walk with God, not just to walk with people who knew God. Confident of this calling, I set out to walk across the United States, to learn how to stay in step with this God who walks with people.

In the year it took to walk from Grayland Beach, Wash., to Key Biscayne, Fla., I learned that Jesus longs to walk with whoever is placed in his path, without preference or prejudice. I tried my best to override my own fears and biases to keep pace with this embracing God. I learned to love the fullness of God and to love the breadth of people and to just keep it simple.

As you might imagine, the evangelical church loved the stories that came out of my experience and I was soon lifted up as a model of someone who walked out her faith.

Over the following decade I preached extensively about this journey. All the while, my husband and I were on a different, painful road of losing 11 pregnancies. In a religious tradition that loves a good equation, my story no longer fit the church’s formulas so neatly. I wondered how long the church would continue to love my story.

But, if my sermons were now a bit more angsty, they still remained within evangelical parameters: God goes with us even on painful stretches of road. God will work with you to bring about what is good no matter what “detour” you’re walking through. Keep walking out your “20 miles” every single day, who knows, God might need you to come alongside someone else on their lonely stretch of road.

The Rev. Judy Peterson. Photo courtesy of North Park University

It was during this season that I took a job as the campus chaplain at my denominational university. It was there that I learned to “pastor-ent” — both pastor and stand in as a parent for young adults, often away from home for the first time or who had never experienced unconditional parental love. It was exactly the type of story I knew God authored: a childless parent paired up with “children” who wanted someone with whom to wrestle their way into adulthood.

While the university was a Christian school, it did not require students to sign a faith statement or commit to a conservative lifestyle. This meant that those who sat around my dining room table were not always traditional Christian kids. Many were exploring a Christian faith for the first time, and many identified as both Christian and gay. Like much of their generation, many were rightfully suspicious and significantly wounded.

I maintained the same standards for all my students: Honor God with your whole life, love your neighbor with your full self and keep your pants on. When you trip and fall, come see me and we’ll get you dusted off so together we can make another reasonable run.

I find it important to articulate this because people watching from a distance have wrongly accused me of not being clear about the standards of God, simply because I offer the grace of God. They say to me, “Scripture is very clear that Jesus said to sinners, ‘Go and sin no more.’” To this I will continue to respond, “Do you think they did?”

I believe everyone sins some more. And what do we believe Jesus does then? My experience has been that Jesus kneels down in the dirt with us time and time again, always encouraging us to get up and make another reasonable run.

This is the embodied grace that changed my life. It is this kind of embodied grace that I will continue to offer to people who will all sin some more.

This thorough and gracious embrace, especially of its LGBGTQ+ children, made my evangelical denomination increasingly uncomfortable. Many believed that simply being gay, and certainly being partnered as a gay person, was sinning some more. There were letters asking for my removal, petitions for churches to withdraw their financial support and increasing pressure for me to be clear that for the LGBTQ+ community, there was an additional requirement for inclusion in the evangelical church — a commitment to celibacy and singleness for the rest of their lives.

I saw firsthand the destruction that conditional embrace had caused. It often felt nearly impossible to love away the shame that so many carried. While I couldn’t keep everyone from ending their lives, I tried to create an environment where everyone would want to live. But I was up against a church that seemed to have so many kids it could afford to lose a few. Personally, I have lost too many to want to risk losing even one more life.

LGBTQ advocates react to the Traditional Plan being adopted at the United Methodist Church General Conference on Feb. 26, 2019, in St. Louis. RNS photo by Kit Doyle

I am not naive. I understand the full inclusion and blessing of partnered LGBTQ+ persons in the church is the issue of our day. I know that entire denominations are being torn at the seams and a significant portion of a generation has let go of the garment of the church altogether. I am not unaware of the tensions people find in the biblical text.

I wonder nonetheless how the church can continue to biblically defend its unwillingness to leave the 99 for the one. How can we claim to follow a God who left the purity of his privileged place to walk with the sinful and the marginalized, if we are unwilling to do the same?

How can we defend interpretations that tear people apart when Jesus broke a rule written in stone in order to make a brother whole? People of God, the Bible is not made of flesh and blood; it cannot be wounded, nor does it need a defender. But, according to Scripture, God’s vulnerable children need to know we are willing to stand with them.

I have made a reasonable run at trying to stay in step with the God I learned to walk alongside for 4,200 miles and who has walked alongside me through indescribable loss. I will continue to walk out the words I have proclaimed to tens of thousands of people — there is a God who wants to walk with us, a God who loves us without preconditions and in spite of our reputations.

I will continue to risk my reputation in the hopes of coaxing the church to take a more honest look at whether or not it truly wants to walk out what it preaches, that there is a God who came as good news of great joy for all people.

One would think a desire to remain true to such a core declaration wouldn’t be controversial at all. Yet my commitment to this good news has now led to losing my job and a battle with my denomination over whether or not theological dissent should be treated as a moral failing. This impasse has now led me to give up my ministerial credentials so that I can continue to boldly walk out my conviction that when we say there is good news for all, we mean all. Who knew practicing what we preach could be so scandalous.

(Pastor Judy Peterson, a member of the Evangelical Covenant Church, is the former chaplain at North Park University. The views expressed in this commentary do not necessarily represent those of Religion News Service.)

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  • Thank you for your brave witness, Rev. Peterson. That took real courage. As a gay Christian I commend you for your solidarity with the gay community, especially since it meant loss of income for you and your family. Since we gay people represent less than 5% of the population, we need courageous straight people like you to stand with us against the extreme prejudice and hatred that continue to exist both within the church and beyond.

    I personally do not believe it is ever a sin to love someone, even someone of the same sex, even when that expression of love is physical. What I do believe it that to deny any kind of love as real, even same-sex love, is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, the sin for which, according to Holy Scripture, there is no forgiveness. For all the evangelicals’ claim of caring about the state of my sinful soul, I do believe they should be more concerned for their own. Thank you for having the courage to look beyond the narrow confines of your tradition to see the truth – that love, no matter its expression, is always of God.

  • And now we will get the panopoly of Anti-gay speech and defense of the school’s actions as a private university.

    To a conservative, freedom of speech only is only an issue for private universities which are not Christian. They are a scripted and hypocritical lot. Whereas Harvard or MIT get condemnation for firing professors based on their views, Christian universities which do so get defended.
    https://religionnews.com/2019/02/12/mit-faces-backlash-over-invited-speakers-anti-muslim-comments/

    The school as a private university is well within their rights to fire the author. Just like any other private university is well within their rights to do the same, for the same reasons.

  • “Like much of their generation, many were (are) rightfully suspicious and significantly wounded.”

    That’s true. I likewise see such things (like, umm, every single week). And it ain’t just Millennials. It’s like, “Everybody.” ALL the labels. ALL the flavors. We all got issues. But none of ’em — none — are too hard for Jesus.

    “How can we defend interpretations that tear people apart when Jesus broke a rule written in stone in order to make a brother whole?”

    Okay, let’s start with Jesus. Did HE violate or break any Scriptures — at all — when He healed people on the Sabbath? The honest answer is “No, He didn’t.” There is NO other answer. Want proof? Then go right here:
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?article=5155

  • Take comfort in the fact that you have proven yourself more accepting, more open and loving–and therefore more Christian–than the university that fired you. Yes, they were within their rights to set bigotry as policy–but they were dead wrong to do so.

  • C’mon Spuddie. The school did the right thing. There is no free-speech issue involved. Merely cleaning house.

    North Park University is run by the Evangelical Covenant Church. If you receive **ECC** clergy credentials and become a chaplain at the **ECC** university, you are flat-out agreeing to stay within **ECC** beliefs. Agreed?

    Well, those ECC beliefs do NOT include betraying North Park University by officiating at a Gay Marriage. Rev. Peterson seems very caring. But she dropped the Bible on a critical issue, dropped Christ’s great love and great healing power on a critical issue, and dropped ECC. So North Park did the right thing. Gotta end the mess.

  • The school was exercising its right as a private university to censor beliefs and speech in accordance with their own arbitrary rules. I agree with you that was OK.

    Where I got on my high horse is when your crowd demands differently for other private university.

    From Parker12 in the link I had.

    “Both sides should always be given the opportunity to speak. Let individuals then decide on the merit of the speaker.
    We don’t need groups to decide what is with merit or not.”

    “I’m for transparency. Let the fools speak and the people will turn away.”

    “Oh; so only the “right” kind of speech should be allowed.
    Got it.”

    From Sandi in EL in the same link

    “Who’s rights are being repressed by this man teaching at a university?
    I thought “free speech” was for everyone. You are denying him his right to free speech.
    Hypocrisy is your specialty – granting some “privileges” and others not”

    Hypocrisy is a given for conservatives.

  • ☺️. What a great quote.
    I’m not sure how it applies in this case; but I’m flattered you bookmark my comments.

  • LOL! I told you the issue would come up again. I am glad I shamed you out of a silly response.

  • I will try not to be silly-
    I agree with Floyd – you join an institution; especially in a “management” position; you need to be a company man. If you cannot be, then move on.

    To me, that is not even close to the comment I made above discussing speech on campus. In that case, I said each side (no matter how stupid or shameful) has the right to say what they want to say.

    How (and why) are you connecting the two?

  • I agree as well, private universities can be as arbitrary as they want when it comes to the views of its staff and those who come there.

    But I know you are a hypocrite on the issue and have argued the opposite for other types of private universities. There is no expectation of free speech at one. What you demand elsewhere, you would deny here.

  • Huh?
    Soooooo…. you agree with me…
    But you can’t allow yourself to say it?

    Gee whiz… it almost sounds like we’re a couple.

  • I would, but you have already stated its wrong for a university to control the points of view available to students.

    “We don’t need groups to decide what is with merit or not.”

    The great thing about being consistent is you don’t have to cough up crazy excuses and reasons for apparently hypocritical views.

  • Being “more accepting” and “more open” of sin does not make one more Christian.

    It makes one less so.

  • 1 Corinthians 6 says that people who embrace a homosexual lifestyle will not inherit the kingdom of God, unless they turn from their sinful ways.
    But this “reverend” would rather ignore that warning and just “be nice” to them for the first few decades of their eternal existence.
    That is so sad.

  • Not surprising, really, that she would ignore that scripture.

    After all, she ignored Chapter 14 of the same epistle by becoming a pastor.

  • “But none of ’em — none — are too hard for Jesus.”

    May not be the best phrasing for a story about a same-sex wedding…..just saying.

  • “For me, the goal is to help people know a God who left his privilege behind to put on skin and walk with people in the person of Jesus.” Don’t forget, and He died for people so they no longer need to die for their sin.
    ” And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1:28

    “But either way, our disagreement is not nearly as harrowing as its impact on a gay teenager walking this road alone. And the next steps the church takes will have life-and-death consequences.” So you point the teenager to where we have hope, Christ, and lead the teen away from the world’s lies and the death they honour

    ” I learned to love the fullness of God and to love the breadth of people and to just keep it simple.” And then you turned on Him and all that He taught , if you ever did love Him, and started helping people to death and hades – makes one wonder if you really are a Christian.

    These comments may be Jesus with you in the dirt telling you that you are grievously sinning against He and His – I also remind you of the scripture: Mark 9:42 – English Standard Version
    “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea” So what god are you following?

    “There were letters asking for my removal, petitions for churches to withdraw their financial support ” They should have, you rejected a loving God and turned to heresy and to make things worse, led others into apostasy and iniquity of a kind that
    Christ specifically told His followers to flee.

    How do you not think the present stand against homosexuality in the churches is not the Lord going after the one?

    Judy, I remind you of one scripture, hoping to halt your self-avowed “rescue” of homosexuals
    “Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.” But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.” 1 Corinthians 7
    No where does Christ make an allowance for homosexuals.

    If you ever belonged to Christ, now is the time to get on your knees and throw this dirt out with the trash. On the chance that you backslid and really are a Christian, I have been as gentle as I can in this rebuke.

  • The writer is the perfect example of why Christ taught that women should not be preachers.
    Adam sinned, but Eve was deceived. The writer of the article is proving that true again today

  • “There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.” Proverbs 16:25
    The problem is, how many others is she leading to death?

  • Nothing is too hard for Jesus?
    Two formers stars of the anti-ex-gay movment, Yvette Cantu Schneider and Randy Thomas, both heavily involved with Exodus International– executives, no less– who had preached for years that all you needed was jesus to pray away the gay, who EARNED THEIR GODDAM LIVINGS TELLING OTHER PEOPLE ALL ABOUT IT….
    Well, it turns out that they are now EX ex-gays. In other words, JESUS NEVER DID A THING ABOUT IT. They lied. They prevaricated. They hoped against hope that if they just hoped enough, they would one day wake up and be straight.Just like John Paulk. Just like John Schmid. Just like Alan Chambers. Just like Michael Bussee, Darlene Bogle, Catherine Chapman, Brad allen. Anthony Venn-Brown, Gunter Baum. We can even include the Wondrously Named David Pickup, who sells Authentic change therapy, buty who, the last I heard form him, is still not quite heterosexual.
    And if I had the patience to go through the effort, just like a long long long list of other people who swore up and down that jesus had changed them.
    Ya know what’s easy, doc? Lying for Jesus. You know what’s hard? Telling the truth.

  • From sandi on this link
    Who’s rights are being repressed? Every person that she directed onto their way to Hell, lying under the guise of Christianity. She also may have given up her rights to an eternity with Christ as Christ taught that she will be cursed for misrepresentation of the Bible. Lotsa rights there Spud.
    Also, I’d be interested in the article where I said that.
    thanks

  • The author is trying to control the points of view available to the students by lying to them Tater

  • God thinks differently Elag and He is the One we are here to please, not our own selfishness

  • “Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1:32
    She should be ashamed of herself.

  • Hardly. Stating a point of view is not controlling others. The school was controlling things in both stories. You are just a hypocrite. That’s all.

  • The chaplain’s ability to express her point if view was repressed by her termination.

    Lying under the guise of Christianity is your department. There is no inconsistency with my view here. I don’t have to find exceptions or change facts to support my views here.

  • People can and do relapse into sin. Repentance is a life long process.

    When asked what they do in a monastery, one ancient monastic replied: “We fall and get up, fall and get up, fall and get up.”.

    Anyone who thinks they can overcome deep seated and serious sins through some modern short term therapy program is seriously mistaken.

    Repentance is often a difficult journey through a dry and arid desert.

    As one Desert Father said: “It is blood to the end.”

  • (1) TRUE OR FALSE: “God … loves us without preconditions”.

    FALSE.

    (2) “Jesus … invited [Judy Peterson] to dance with him”.

    FALSE.

    (3) “Jesus longs to walk with whoever … without preference”.

    FALSE.

    (4) “Jesus broke a rule written in stone [in the Law of Moses] in order to make a brother whole”.

    FALSE.

    Source: The Christ Jesus of the gospels, epistles and revelation Himself, and His 1st apostles and disciples themselves!

  • A chaplain’s job is not to “express her point of view”.

    It is to express the point of view of Christ.

    In that she failed.

  • They never left the sin, nor did the sin ever leave them. There was no “sinful behavior” to “relapse” into. In fact, it’s not a sin.

    They lied. I’m sure that’s a sin. They lied to themselves. They lied to their families. They lied to their churches. They lied to their pastors. They lied to the anti-ex-Gay industry that paid them to lie to themselves, their families, their churches, and their pastors.

    And the anti-ex-gay industry lies to the entire world about gay people and homosexuality, and makes a lot of money and accrues a lot of power by doing it. These people, formerly in the employ of the anti-ex-gay industry, lied to the poor and desperate people who had the misfortune of being born gay and into a homo-hating and homophobic religious environment, and who, so over-whelmed by the toxic self hate so carefully inculcated in them by their families and churches and faiths, bought into the lie that they are sinners, sick, perverted, and need to change something that cannot change because Jesus won’t love them if they don’t.

    I wonder how you feel about the lies?

  • Of course she is controlling them. She wants to be their mom. She wants to affirm and love them all the way to Hell, Tater. She gets some sense of how wonderful she is, and she’ll tell you all about how wonderful she is, except homosexual kids got in her way during the article

  • Whether or not some huckster therapists lied about their modern therapies only highlights the importance of what I wrote about repentance being a difficult and life long process.

    As Jesus said: “Whoever would be my disciple, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me”. (Luke 9:23)

  • No one is born homosexual. Christ taught that it is “unnatural”, a “shameful act” and an “error” –
    Romans 1

  • “Two Corinthians”, maybe; but NEVER the 1st and 2nd Epistles to the Church in Corinth from Paul, the apostle from The Christ Jesus to the Gentiles like you. NEITHER “Corinthians says a lot of bigoted things…so … reject it” AT YOUR PERIL.

  • Whatever fictions you feel like telling yourself to distinguish the same acts by different schools. You are projecting and fantasizing

    Hypocrisy required a lot of work for you.

  • A plain and uncomplicated reading of the bible requires no hermeneutics whatsoever. Hermeneutics is for doubters like “Judy Peterson, a member of the Evangelical Covenant Church, [and] the former chaplain at North Park University.”

  • Many say you aren’t either. Just a self righteous loudmouth pretending to be. Not Me. I think you are Christian as they come and the very opposite of Christ like.

  • If North Park University’s “rights” are “wrong”, then Brian Curtis’ “wrong”-doings are all “accepting, … open and loving–and therefore more Christian”?!?!???!?!?! WHAT?!???!?!?!

  • Of course it is, as is the right if any person. According to conservatives.

    Listen, I have no problem with the private university firing someone based on their views.

    But the problem is hypocrite conservatives like to pretend the same rules don’t apply to other types of private universities as well. Fools blubbering about free speech rights on private property which do not exist.

    So, if you give me that “liberal colleges don’t like free speech” bullcrap in the inevitable near future, you can pre emptively go stuff yourself and expect to be called a hypocrite. Just saying. 🙂

  • Thank you for admitting that they are liars and hucksters. Thank you for admitting that they are lying and huckstering for Jesus.

    See? There are things we can agree upon.

    But now of course, let’s get back to the actual subject at hand, rather than the sleight of hand you just employed. THESE PEOPLE CLAIMED THAT JESUS AND PRAYER AND RELIGION HAD CHANGED THEM. It hadn’t, as it hasn’t for the thousands of people that the ex-gay ministries managed to fleece out of money, time, and humanity. They weren’t changed from homosexual to heterosexual. They didn’t stop their attractions to people of the same sex. THEY NEVER STOPPED BEING HOMOSEXUALS.

    They just managed to repress and suppress themselves, which requires absolutely no Jesus whatsoever. Just a good dollop of self hatred.

  • He didn’t ask you to, either, dearie. But you do and you have. It has been pointed out to you, and you frankly don’t care. You’ll have a lot to answer for.

    Back to ignoring you.

  • I don’t need to lie, I stand for the truth – don’t believe me, check the scripture reference, rather than petulantly sulking

  • “For me, the goal is to help people know a God who left his privilege behind to put on skin and walk with people in the person of Jesus.” Don’t forget, and He died for people so they no longer need to die for their sin.

    ” And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1:28

    “But either way, our disagreement is not nearly as harrowing as its impact on a gay teenager walking this road alone. And the next steps the church takes will have life-and-death consequences.” So you point the teenager to where we have hope, Christ, and lead the teen away from the world’s lies and the death they honour

    ” I learned to love the fullness of God and to love the breadth of people and to just keep it simple.” And then you turned on Him and all that He taught , if you ever did love Him, and started helping people to death and hades – makes one wonder if you really are a Christian.

    These comments may be Jesus with you in the dirt telling you that you are grievously sinning against He and His – I also remind you of the scripture: Mark 9:42 – English Standard Version

    “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea” So what god are you following?

  • and further:

    “There were letters asking for my removal, petitions for churches to withdraw their financial support ” They should have, you rejected a loving God and turned to heresy and to make things worse, led others into apostasy and iniquity of a kind that

    Christ specifically told His followers to flee.

    How do you not think the present stand against homosexuality in the churches is not the Lord going after the one?

    Judy, I remind you of one scripture, hoping to halt your self-avowed “rescue” of homosexuals

    “Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.” But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.” 1 Corinthians 7

    No where does Christ make an allowance for homosexuals.

    If you ever belonged to Christ, now is the time to get on your knees and throw this dirt out with the trash. On the chance that you backslid and really are a Christian, I have been as gentle as I can in this rebuke.

  • No, Christ never said any of those things about homosexuality. In fact, he said nothing at all. St. Paul might have condemned it, as did the writer of Leviticus, who also condemned a great many other things that nobody heeds. And please don’t try to regurgitate your tired trope that Christ wrote the entire Bible. He didn’t. Sinful, mortal men did.

  • I read somewhere that these CHRISTIAN EX-GAYS REMAIN EX:

    Luis Javier Ruiz
    Aaron Bitzer
    Matthew Grech

  • These Christian Ex-Gay didn’t sign that “Open Letter: Former Ex-Gay Leaders Unite in Opposition to Conversion Therapy”:

    Luis Javier Ruiz
    Aaron Bitzer
    Matthew Grech

  • “Christian Ex-Gay Movement: Past, Present and Future” – IS HERE TO STAY.

    You, though, stay out of it!

  • Funny, isn’t it, how it’s always the same old crew of ladies who protest too much every time this issue comes up. Like flies on cow patties there they are.

  • You calling them liars – Luis Javier Ruiz, Aaron Bitzer, Matthew Grech – liars? Or just wishing they are? That’s a messed-up LGBT-mindset, right there!

  • “No, Christ never said any of those things about homosexuality. In fact, he said nothing at all.” is one of the top five in the LGBT all-purpose obfuscations for use with Christians.

    Christ said nothing about genocide, bestiality, stealing, prostitution, marrying your sister, or nailing people to trees.

    What in the world does that signify?

    Not one blessed thing.

  • Being “open” to “difficult issue” is being oxymoronic. ElleBeeGeeTease are trying way too hard.

  • I can never get how “denying self” elicits such pearl-clutching, like it’s a bad thing. It’s part and parcel of the gospel. It’s the entire reason for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

  • What a self-important report from someone who dislocated her shoulder patting herself on the back.

    Now, had she resigned and THEN did whatever the heck she wanted on her own dime, she could at least claim conscience.

    This, however, was both disobedience and self-aggrandizement.

  • Christ is responsible for the Bible. It is the word of God. He taught Paul through three years of revelation. Paul was a Pharisee and already knew that homosexuality is a sin that leads to death

  • You could be freed of your sin with an eternity with Christ awaiting you. Christ is faithful and just to forgive our sins, should we turn to Him, repent and follow Him.

  • 1.Jordan Peterson is a Nazi. He can fall in a well for all I care.

    2. Public and Canadian. Not what I am talking about.

    3. Oh well. The only difference is I always support private schools getting rid of people for their views and you pretend it’s only ok for Christian schools to do it.

  • “No one is born homosexual.”

    There is no medical evidence, either way, on that issue. Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that it is not a choice; however, that does not constitute medical proof.

    Question. If medical science can show it is not a choice, what would Jesus do?

  • As I have been saying, sin may harm some people so deeply that they have to struggle with its effects for years. St. Mary of Egypt spent 47 years in the desert struggling against sexual sin. Jesus never said that “denying yourself” would be easy.

    “They never stopped being homosexuals.”

    Of course not, because they never were. Homosexuality is not an essential attribute of their being; it is merely a sin to which they are addicted, and which has left deep scars on their character.

  • And that is exactly howyou people are. I didn’t mention their names. You did. I didn’t accuse them of lying. You accused me of accusing them of lying when I didn’t even mention their names.

    That’s one really messed up mindset you got there, all righty.

    But since you ask me…

    Really, why don’t you ask them whether they are now heterosexual, whether Jesus changed them, or whether they just have to fight themselves every day? Ask them if they are just gay as they ever were, but every day have to tell themselves that they are getting one step closer to heterosexuality, one step closer no no sexuality, one step closer to holiness, one step closer to a chaste existence, or whatever the moving goalpost you people set up for them?

    Frankly, I have no use for ex-gays who so hate themselves that they must lead others into their delusions so that they can feel better about how very much they hate themselves. If you want to be ex-gay, the path is simple, but please, keep your self hatred to yourself. It infects far too many people like my dead brother-x murder or suicide in a Mexican desert. Take your pick.

    Each of the people I mentioned realized the great lie and the great harm they had promulgated and acquiesced to, and are now doing what they can to make amends for their sickness.

  • One of them has finally convinced me of what his real problem is. Quelle surprise.

  • Judy Peterson is an inspired and inspiring follower of Jesus, unshackled by medieval bigotry and the religious hypocrisy that accompanies it. She lives the message of Jesus.

  • “If you want to be ex-gay, the path is simple, but please, keep your self hatred to yourself. ” Actually Ben, it is your self hatred, and hatred of Christ that is going to keep you out of the kingdom of Heaven

  • If she were following Jesus, she would not be leading people to Hell in Jesus’ name

  • Yes. People today want to be told to “affirm themselves”, not to “deny themselves”.

  • She is another depressing example of one who has abandoned Jesus and His Word.

    She has sold out our Lord for her version of 30 pieces of silver -the applause of this world for her “brave witness” in support of homosexual sin.

  • And as I have said many times, it is precisely that mindset, based upon a lie as it is, that pretty much guarantees that their efforts are doomed to failure. Remember that bit about exchanging the truth for a lie? It certainly applies here.

    From the boys in the band….

    You’re a sad and pathetic man. You’re a homosexual and you don’t want to be, but there’s nothing you can do to change it. Not all the prayers to your god, not all the analysis you can buy in all the years you’ve go left to live. You may one day be able to know a heterosexual life if you want it desperately enough, if you pursue it with the fervor with which you annihilate. But you’ll always be homosexual as well. Always Michael. Always. Until the day you die”.

  • A good note there Rick. It’s a process. It’s a journey. And in the amazing power and love of Christ, the process DOES really happen, be it longer for some, or shorter for others. (Everybody’s different, it seems. God tailors to individual needs.)

    The black ex-gay gospel singer, Rev. Donnie McClurkin, sings the hit song “We Fall Down, But We Get Up.” (By the way Ben, McClurkin has never “slipped up” since getting out. Nor the white gospel singer Dennis Jernigan. Nor the college speaker Janet Boynes. Nor college professor Rosaria Butterfield. Even Alan Chambers, who destroyed Exodus International, has NEVER retracted his own personal story of how Jesus delivered him from homosexuality. He even refuses to call himself “gay.” Jesus is strong enough to break any person’s chains, 1 Cor 6:9-11.) I’ve seen it happen.

    So, SSA readers, who do you want? You want to follow Jesus, or do you want to follow the Gay Activists? If you want Jesus, then He got something for you. (The gay activists have nothing for you.) Visit http://www.restoredhopenetwork.com .

  • You ain’t kidding. These ARE dangerous times. Praying God’s protection, inside and outside.

    Hmm. Side note. Folks, remember that whether your personal sin temptations involve “straight” or “gay” issues, do NOT let people — especially Gay Activists — trick you into believing that your Self-Identity as a Christian is DEFINED by whatever your temptation happens to be. That’s a sorry tactic, they’re trying to keep you down, keep you enslaved.

    Get your Emancipation Proclamation today, at John 3:16, 2 Cor. 5:17, 1 Cor. 10:13, Rev. 3:20, and many other outlets.

  • In Heaven I would be surrounded by and listening to True Believers 24/7 for eternity. That would be pure Hell.

  • If Christians aren’t about being open, loving, and accepting, then Christianity is no damn good at all. Think carefully before you take that stance.

  • A modern cliche is that “love is never wrong.” Is that really true? I can think of many loves and attractions that if acted upon would still be considered wrong by most people in society (not that right and wrong are decided by what most people believe). Christians have historically believed there are many types of attractions and temptations that if acted upon are sinful and contrary to the laws of God. They have had faith that obedience to divine law will result in personal and societal benefits, especially in the long term, and a heavenly reward. It has always been part of the Christian doctrine that people are tempted to love as they should not love. Such love has been something to be resisted, avoided, or repented of, not condoned or endorsed. Is homosexual conduct and same sex marriage a sin (a violation of the laws of God—even a serious violation)?

    Historically, nearly all Christian religions have considered that it is. Whether or not it is sin and against God’s law must be a question for God to answer. He is the law giver. However, it seems necessary that religions MUST determine what the laws of God are and then their ministers and agents must be expected to encourage and teach obedience to those divine laws. If churches cannot say what God’s law is or what conduct is good or evil, they are of little value. It would be like having a law firm that cannot counsel as to what the law is. It also seems necessary that there must be some consequence for those ministers who violate the laws of God or assist others in doing so in some significant way—who commit malpractice. Ministers claim they represent God (though we may challenge that claim). Some say that the Bible is clear on the matter of homosexual conduct, and others say it is not. To me this illustrates the clear need for modern day prophets and apostles like those described in the Bible with the capacity to seek clarity from God, Himself, on the issue. Instead, we have ministers and religions who have taken it upon themselves to speak for God, while disagreeing and contradicting each other. In any event, a religion should be expected to require its ministers to abide by the laws of God as that religion understands those laws to be.

  • I, who sin every day and is not penitent;
    the fear of death troubles me:
    for in hell there is no redemption. Have mercy upon me O God, and save me…

  • Right on, folks (and yolks too, I guess )

    Key word in Emancipation is – yUp – MAN – as in eMANcipate inner MAN to be – yUp – MAN again

    Gotta get me some more of some such Emancipation – thanks for these, floydlee:

    (1) Juan 3:16 (La Biblia de las Américas) – “Porque de tal manera amó Dios al mundo, que dio a su Hijo unigénito[a], para que todo aquel que cree en El, no se pierda, mas tenga vida eterna.”

    (2) 2 Corinthiens 5:17 (Nouvelle Edition de Genève) – “Si quelqu’un est en Christ, il est une nouvelle création[a]. Les choses anciennes sont passées; voici, toutes choses sont devenues nouvelles.”

    (3) Prva poslanica Korinćanima 10:13 (Hrvatski Novi Zavjet) – “Nijedna vas kušnja nije zahvatila, osim ljudske. A Bog je vjeran i neće dopustiti da budete kušani iznad svojih snaga, nego će vam s kušnjom dati i ishod da je možete podnijeti.”

    (4) 요한계시록 3:20 (Korean Living Bible) – “보라, 내가 밖에 서서 문을 두드리고 있다. 누구든지 내 음성을 듣고 문을 열면 내가 그에게 들어가서 그와 함께 먹고 그는 나와 함께 먹을 것이다.”

  • This woman should not be a preacher or pastor, this is abomination and that is only the beginning of what is so, so wrong with the whole story. This woman don’t preach true christianity, she preach the world religion of the antichrist or maytreia or whatever the occultists/heathens/satanists called him, the man of perdition. The new world religion of the antichrist goes along new age doctrines which called for everyone to be accepted, no matter what their depravities are, no matter what they believe etc. This is NOT the teachings Lord Jesus Christ brought to us for salvation, this is counterfeit, this is demonic doctrine, this is gnosticism. Faggots/gay/sodomites should never be accepted if they continue with their vile ways, because they are rejected by the Word of God. Only if they repented they can receive acceptance and forgivness. The sad part is this woman so much wanted to be licked by the world which is full of leftist/abominable propaganda that because of that she betray the Word of God!

  • IT’S ALL HERE, THANKS.

    (1) “Pulse survivor [Luis Javier Ruiz] claims he is no longer gay”, Los Angeles Blade: America’s LGBT News Source, May 2, 2018.

    (2) ‘Ex-Gay’ Men [Like Aaron Bitzer] Fight Back Against View That Homosexuality Can’t Be Changed”, New York Times, October 31, 2012.

    (3) “I didn’t have gay therapy, says Christian convert Matthew Grech: Former Malta X-Factor singer Matthew Grech says his Christian conversion resulted in him leaving his homosexuality without any formal therapy”, NewsLetter (JPIMedia), February 13, 2019.

  • “medieval bigotry” versus mid-evil bigotry – and the winner is …

    the latter – alwayspuzzled’s – yaay

  • Already commented on the happily (opposite-sex) married Alan Chambers, of course. You have no refutation against HIS testimony, needless to say.

    As you can see from my response to Rick, I have some successful Ex-LGBT names to offer. In fact, one of HpO’s guys, Aaron Bitzer, not only said that his particular therapy worked for him, the man even filed a lawsuit against California’s “ban on conversion therapy”. He HIMSELF is studying to be a therapist too!

    In fact, here’s 30 more ex-gays and ex-lesbians, (see photo below) who publicly rallied against California’s recent ban. (The Church-United Rally, of course.) Not one has been called out for “slipping up.” Not one went back to the Slave Plantation.

    You’re a professional gay activist, true. But it’s too bad you don’t have the patience to produce that “long long list” you speak of. For I am a professional as well, and I have both the patience AND the citations, to produce a list of honest, still-successful Ex-Gays and Ex-Lesbians that would totally avalanche any “ex-ex-gay list” that you even TRY to offer in this forum. Just sayin’.

    https://www.charismanews.com/images/stories/2018/05/Church-United-Rally.JPG

  • Your cure for “paradox” = PAIRofSOCKS

    And on Liquidation Sale too!

    “Attention, K-Mart Shoppers … is there an alwayspuzzled in The Lost & Found Department?”

  • You say “Goodbye” and alwayspuzzled say “Hell, hell, hell”.
    alwayspuzzled don’t know why you say “Goodbye”, alwayspuzzled say “Hell, hell, hell”.
    (Hell, goodbye, hell, goodbye. Hell, goodbye.)
    alwayspuzzled don’t know why you say “Goodbye”, alwayspuzzled say “Hell”.
    – Beatles, Unredacted

  • “While seeing Judy Peterson & LGBTs do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”

  • He would maybe point to the sick woman who spent all her money on doctors only to get worse and worse (Mark 5:26), and then maybe say something about how He is able to do what medical science cannot do.

  • Matteo 23:38-39 (La Bibbia della Gioia):

    Ebbene vi accadrà come si legge nelle Scritture: “La vostra casa vi sarà lasciata deserta”. Perché vi dico questo: non mi rivedrete mai più, fino al giorno in cui direte: “Benedetto colui che viene nel nome del Signore!”».

  • Yep, give ’em lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of time.

    And if that don’t work, just pretend they don’t exist. Heh.

  • I have to laugh at all those on here who are debating the “God Hates Fags!” Evangelicals. They hate gay people the way the Nazi’s hated the Jews. They wrap themselves in the mantle of God and pronounce the judgement of God on anyone and everyone who dares to challenge them. The “God Hates Fags!” Evangelicals who have overrun the RNS site think that gay people’s lives are of no human value. They call for gay people to be stripped of their human, legal, and civil rights and treated as total outcasts. They “spit” on Judy Peterson and anyone who treats gay people with human compassion and decency. Until you can get them to acknowledge that gay people are not vermin, but rather human beings, you’re wasting your time responding or debating them.

    The great irony of the “God Hates Fags!” Evangelicals is that they show what a farce their Christianity is. They’re just as vile and hateful as any “heathen” they condemn. They show that God doesn’t make people into better human beings – in fact God makes them worse human beings. They cause people to run away from Christianity and say “No thanks – I don’t want any part of a religion that teaches people to hate”.

  • Jesus wouldn’t stone the adulterous woman, agreed.

    But He would not have opened the door to let the man into her home either.
    Key issue is repentance. When someone repents, they might fall back into a sin, but they fight it.

  • Where?

    Please share one example of negative portrayal of same-sex attraction and relationships in the Bible that’s not (1) a mistranslation (Paul’s 2 “mentions” of homosexuality weren’t present in translations until the 1500s), (2) Mosaic law (laws meant originally for Israelites to have a sense of set-apartness and/or health protection, and you can take a look at Paul’s words in the New Testament regarding why we’re no longer bound to these laws), or (3) gang rape (which is harrowing regardless of the genders of offenders and victims). Doubt you’ll find any, but you can try.

    Please quote and explain. In a faith where Christ challenged religious people far more than those on the outside, the burden of proof is on you.

  • “I have to laugh at all [the ‘Til Tuesdays] on here who are debating the ‘God [Okays ElleBeeGeeTease!’ Nones-senses, Eggnogshticks & Ashiests]. They hate [religious conservative] people the way the Nazis hated the Jews. They wrap themselves in the mantle of [Demo(n)cracy] and pronounce the [Social Just-Is] on anyone and everyone who dares to challenge them. The “God [Okays ElleBeeGeeTease!’ Nones-senses, Eggnogshticks & Ashiests] who have overrun the RNS site think that [religious conservative] people’s lives are of no [animal] value. They call for [religious conservative] people to be stripped of their [heavenly blessings and] human, legal, and civil rights and treated as total [terrorists]. They “[lick]” on Judy Peterson and anyone who treats [religious conservative] people with human comp[ost] and [in]decency. Until you can get them to acknowledge that [religious conservative] people are not [vita]min, but rather [sub]human beings, you’re wasting your time responding or debating them.

    “The great irony of the “God [Okays ElleBeeGeeTease!’ Nones-senses, Eggnogshticks & Ashiests] is that they show what a farce their [Secularism] is. They’re just as vile and hateful as any ‘[civilized]’ they condemn. They show that [Demo(n)cracy] doesn’t make people into better human beings – in fact [Secularism] makes them worse human beings. They cause people to run away from [Secularism] and say ‘No thanks – I don’t want any part of [an ideology] that teaches people to hate’.”

  • “They hate gay people the way the Nazi’s hated the Jews.”

    The fact that you’re still here posting this nonsense seems to belie that allegation.

    Of course you come from the position that custom cake designers should be compelled to genuflect at the altar of Obergefell v. Hodges and bake rainbow-icinged cakes.

  • Which reminds of the joke about two Corinthians walking into a bar with Judy Peterson ….

  • Being open, loving, and accepting of sin “is no damn good at all”. You would be well advised to “Think carefully before you take that stance.”

  • Or the more obvious and truthful position, ex gay ministries are a load of garbage and we are talking about something innate to people, not sin or bad acts. There is no contrition possible for one’s identity and your position is just rationalizing personal bigotry.

  • I did. You’re standing up for bigotry and hatred, so your cause is garbage. Trying to shift the blame for mistreatment of your fellow men is despicable.

  • One can lie in the mud, or one can rise to the stars.

    “Non est ad astra mollis e terris via.”

    “There is no easy way from earth to the stars.” (Seneca – Hercules Furens, 437.)

    “With God all things are possible.” (Jesus -Matthew 19:26)

  • One needs no forgiveness for who they are. Nor is it possible

    There are no ex gays. Just bigots trying to pretend there are for their own agenda. The idea of considering gays “sinners” is simply to rationalize ones desire to hate. An excuse to treat others in a malicious fashion.

  • Jesus said we’ll know wolves among sheep by their fruits. The reviling and other ill fruit, harming others, that’s found among the anti-LBGTA+ camp of Christians gave me pause even before I paid sufficient attention to them to spot the flaws.

    (Case in point: God created “them” male and female, yes, but that just describes what was at Creation. Black Angus cows weren’t at Creation, so where’s the argument against those? And that’s aside from how that “them” in the text could be singular or plural, referring to Adam the person or “adam” as in humankind, so it can be read as saying Adam was originally intersex.)

    A few years ago, I went digging into the arguments, hoping to find the baby in the bathwater, but the more I dig, the more problems I find. At most, the Bible can be read as anti-LBGTA+. It also can be read as affirming those things.

    (Suffice to say the more I read of the New Testament in Greek, the more misleading nuances I’m finding in translation. Some are egregious, like the word translated “evil” in a lot of places where Jesus uses it actually means “toilsome” or “burdened by toil”—it’s an ancestor of “ponderous”—which has quite a number of implications. “Deliver us from toils” is quite different from how that prayer is often understood.)

    Regardless, if we think a sibling in Christ is in egregious wrong, we’re told and shown to walk away, not to demand they comply with our beliefs (which is usurping God’s authority [cf. Romans 14:4]). So why is the topmost reaction among those against LBTQA+ to outright revile folks? That’s expressly an evil fruit.

    The exception to that “walk away” is when the group thinks a person is in egregious wrong, as in I Corinthians, and that person is entering the group’s space. The person’s desire to be in that space doesn’t obligate them to cater to that person. (Example: if you think cussing is fine and you walk into a church where they believe it’s not and start exercising your liberty, they have the right to remove you from their space.)

    Now, if the university is fully privatized, it’s in their rights to fire her. She’s in her rights to do what got her fired. It’s frankly in the rights of the commenters here and elsewhere who are ranging from encouraging to scoffing.

    And far too many people are demanding others abide by their own consciences. Even Jesus told the Pharisees to go ahead and disbelieve Him; He pointed out that they just had to explain His fruits if they did (cf. John 10:38), which pissed them off, but He still didn’t demand they believe or act as if they did. When Jesus called them out, it was on their failures to abide by their own stated beliefs.

    Claiming others must follow the selfsame interpretations we do is elevating ourselves above them, which violates both the command to love our neighbor as [we do] ourselves and the command to have God as our highest authority. The salvation or lack thereof of a person is His call, not ours (cf. Romans 14:3).

    The fruits of a belief or action are all we have the capacity to judge, whether we believe it leads to benefit or detriment (“benefit” being closer to what “good” has historically meant and that the underlying translated text usually means). And this adds a whole different issue with how so many people overlook the fact that, if you believe Scripture is inerrant, then any interpretation is a hypothesis about what God meant, and evidence can be consistent with that hypothesis or preclude that hypothesis, and hypotheses that don’t fit facts mean it’s time to double-check facts and/or make a new hypothesis.

  • “Speaking the truth in love” (Ephesian 4:15) is neither “bigotry” nor “hatred”.

    You name calling is meaningless.

  • Well, that sounds nice, but it’s not true, I’m afraid. A hermeneutical framework is always required, no matter what you’re reading. For instance, if you read the Bible as being true, that part of your hermeneutics. If you read it as outdated opinions of religious zealots, that part of your hermeneutics.

  • Your bigotry, sadly, is quite meaningful. Let’s hope it drives your cult into irrelevance swiftly before too many others suffer.

  • 1. The word “arsenokoitai” – which Paul uses for homosexuals – literally means “man-beders”, men who go to bed with other men. He got this compound word by cobbling together two words -“arsen” (man) and “koitai” (bed) – which are found next to each other in the Septuagint version of Leviticus 18 and 24. The meaning of homosexual- “men who go to bed with other men” is very clear.

    2. Those parts of the Mosaic law (like not eating shrimp, or wearing garments of two fabrics) that do not apply to Christians were discussed by the Apostles, and their judgement was given at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). One of the things Christians were still required to abstain from was “sexual immorality”, which was understood to encompass adultery, fornication, and homosexuality.

  • Your bogus name calling is duly noted.

    It is always the last refuge of progressives with no argument to make.

  • “The great irony of the “God Hates Fags!” Evangelicals is that they show what a farce their Christianity is.”

    Yes. And one aspect of the irony is that every year, without fail, we see God pelt the Bible Belt with tornadoes during the springtime. So, the reality now seems to be that “God Hates fags FAGS (Fanatical Anti-Gay Syndrome).

    If Evangelicals believe in an infinitely aware, intelligent, skilled, and powerful god, then they surely must believe that their god can choose to allow or prevent the tornadoes, or can actually create the tornadoes to punish certain people for clinging to FAGS.

  • And . . . The more I read from evangelicals, the better Satan looks. . . .

    If I were going to worship a supernatural being, I’d choose Satan simply based on “God’s Word” which “documents” that God killed about 2,500,000 people, and Satan killed about 10. If we try to estimate the additional killings that are not “documented” with specific numbers, then God’s killings zoom to about 25,000,000 while Satan’s killings zoom
    to about 60. It’s no contest – God is an egotistical barbaric genocidal maniac, whereas Satan is a progressive liberal with much higher standards of decency.

  • Might as well say the same thing to an alcoholic. “You may one day be able to know a sober life if you want it desperately enough. But you’ll always be an alcoholic as well. Until the day you die.”

    Or to an adulterer: “You may one day be able to be in a monogamous marriage if you want it desperately enough. But you’ll still be an adulterer inside.”

    Or to a liar: “You may one day be able to tell the truth. But you’ll always be a liar. Until the day you die.”

    Or to a pedophile: “You may one day be able to suppress your natural-born tendencies. But you’ll always be a pedophile, until the day you die.”

    Or to a smoker: “You may one day give up your habit. But you’ll always crave cigarettes. Till the day you die.”

    And on and on and on. Maybe there’s some truth to all of these assessments. But that doesn’t mean people who make declarations about their new chosen way of life are liars.

  • Not much to do with what I had to say.

    But…

    “There is no easy way to rise above the prejudices of small minds, bound by the ignorance, history, and misunderstandings of ancient peoples, without a willingness to consider that you are ignorant, wrong and have something to learn from others. Even with god, or especially, with gods created by men in their own image, who tell those men they are made in the image of god.” Ben In Oakland 3/7/19

  • Alan Chambers admits he is not heterosexual. He is ACTING heterosexual, which means he is bisexual.

    You are deliberately conflating EX GAY with HETEROSEXUAL. They are not the same thing. Thirty people on a little tour, after you claimed tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands had changed? Alan Chambers used to make the same claim, until he admitted NO ONE CHANGES— not in the least, HIMSELF.

    Shall we talk about Norman Goldwasser, who used to “cure”gay people until it was revealed that he looks for pickups on Grindr?

  • Yes. If the Old Testament itself is taken as historical evidence, Yahweh is an egotistical genocidal maniac. But this does raise a further interesting question, since Yahweh is certainly fictional. What kind of psychological needs are met when people create an egotistical genocidal maniac to worship? To what degree is the fictional egotistical genocidal maniac – who now sends the unworthy to Hell – a projection of the True Believing psychology that wants to commit genocide – at least in an afterlife – against all those who do not share their belief and who challenge their defining identity marker.

  • Which means they obviously managed to somehow get past St. Paul’s admonition that women keep silent in church. They just can’t get past the gay thing, at least not yet.

  • Thank you for demonstrating that you simply are as ignorant on the subject as you are on the subject of morality, as are the rest of your fellow travelers.

  • All of the people I listed, and a host of others, made EXACTLY the same claims. Turns out that they were lying. The lied. They knew they were lying. They continued to lie until they could no longer bear the burden of their lies.

    John Paulk was the poster boy twenty years ago. He earned a nice living claiming he had been cured. He married an ex-lesbian, had two kids, and then finally Admitted he had never changed, and had been lying for years. He divorced, his family and children becoming one more casualty in fundelibangelist Christianity’s never ending war on our right to live our lives. But that doesn’t matter. What’s suffering children compared to self righteousness?

    I will never insist that it’s impossible to change. And until you can see clearly into the minds and souls of those who are desperate to believe they have changed, given the track record so far, I won’t be taking their word for it.

    As far as I can tell, “I used to be a homosexual, but now I’m heterosexual”…

    Means “I was always bisexual, but I hated the part of me that wasn’t heterosexual.”

  • Back at you, bud. Your over-the-top bias has severely impaired your ability to actually consider views other than your own.

  • Because mattes of sexual orientation are as settled as geography, right?

    “There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors.”

    https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation

    Looks like you’re relying on your personal biases, NOT science.

  • This conservative evangelical supports Reverend Peterson’s practice. The Bible, rightly interpreted according to traditional methods, reveals God’s will that the Church marry homosexual couples just as it marries heterosexual couples. Yes, the Bible records several condemnations of homosexual conduct and records not one approval or even tolerance of it. But my fellow conservative’s opinion that this proves God forbids same-sex marriages is based on several misunderstandings and confusions. If your mind is only slightly open and if you trust your own intelligence and inspiration to discern God’s moral will from scripture, ask for a copy of my essay by email: [email protected]

  • shall we include the last sentence that omitted you from your quotation? “Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”

    Though they don’t know exactly what combination of causes results in a homosexual orientation, that doesn’t mean that it is either a choice or inherently changeable. They likewise don’t know what causes heterosexuality as an orientation: there is no heterosexual gene.

    Also, from your same link, there is THIS: “All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay and bisexual persons

    Looks like you’re relying on your own personal biases, not science.

  • Ephesians 5:5 – For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • in the 1482 copy of the Wycliffe Bible, homosexuality is translated, “letchery with men”
    We are bound by the moral laws of Leviticus because Christ brought the moral laws into the New Testament.
    S&G requested the sex at first. Secondly, rape or no rape it was still homosexual sex

  • The Bible, rightly interpreted, condemns homosexuality.
    The Bible, rightly interpreted says marriage is a man and a woman and anything else is immorality
    There is no misunderstanding or confusion
    Anyone who reads your blog, and trusts you, does so to their own demise if they maintain a homosexual practice

  • Yes, there are many sentences from the APA website that I did not put in my comment, and the sentence that you posted is pretty much common knowledge, so I left it off. Of course there’s little sense of choice. The same has been shown to be the case for other behavioral tendencies such as pedophilia and alcoholism. Science has shown that people have a predisposition towards those behaviors (in fact, in recent years, some researchers have been trying to de-stigmatize pedophilia because of this). That doesn’t make it a bad thing to resist such predispositions; in fact, quite the opposite is true. If someone predisposed to alcoholic addiction swears off alcohol, great! If someone who finds themselves with an unwanted pedophilic orientation takes measures to ensure they don’t indulge in their urges, that’s fantastic! Just because you find yourself wanting to do certain things, just because you have urges you didn’t ask to have, doesn’t make those things okay. If you are drawn towards behaviors that aren’t good, that just means you’ve got that in common with just about every human being on the planet. Christians actually have a term for this phenomenon: “original sin.”

    I’m not here to give a blanket endorsement of reparative therapies. I also “express concern” about them. From what I’ve seen, they’ve too often relied on harmful methodologies. That doesn’t mean that such efforts (changing homosexual behavior) are misguided, it just means much of what they’ve tried hasn’t been helpful. Kind of like electric shock therapy — deciding that it’s bad to use on a mentally ill person doesn’t mean there aren’t still valid reasons to use other treatments.

    Thousands of people have decided to resist their homosexual tendencies, with varying degrees of success — some see the urges go away, some struggle with them their whole lives, and yes, some give up. It’s downright shameful that you would call such people “liars” because they want to live a certain way.

  • They shouldn’t have gone past Timothy, period. She shouldn’t have been given a second chance to water down the word of God

  • “And that is exactly how you people are.”

    And “you people” pretty well summarizes your viewpoint.

    “Ask them if they are just gay as they ever were, but every day have to tell themselves that they are getting one step closer to heterosexuality, one step closer no no sexuality, one step closer to holiness, one step closer to a chaste existence, or whatever the moving goalpost you people set up for them?”

    Ask a recovering alcoholic, kleptomaniac, heroin addict, nymphomaniac, or a host of others.

    The fact that it is difficult does not mean it is unachievable, although that is what you have to chosen to believe, or that one should not advise any of them, or you, not to consider undertaking the effort.

    Frankly, I have no use for ex-gays gays who so hate themselves that they must lead others into their delusions so that they can feel better about how very much they hate themselves.

  • “If I were going to worship a supernatural being, I’d choose Satan simply based on “God’s Word” which “documents” that God killed about 2,500,000 people, and Satan killed about 10.”

    If the Dark One is your choice, you’re certainly in luck.

  • “Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”

    Unless they experience little or no choice in how they act – and we have a term for people like that – all you’re describing is what they deal with in life as opposed to what someone else deals with in life.

    From the standpoint of TimTripod, all it says is that someone with same sex attraction has different temptations than someone who has a heterosexual attraction.

    “To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective.”

    On the other hand there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is unsafe or ineffective.

  • “He divorced, his family and children becoming one more casualty in fundelibangelist Christianity’s never ending war on our right to live our lives.”

    Or at least as accurately, one more casualty in the Gay Goliath’s campaign to put self above family, children, morality, and society.

  • “Embodied Grace” has lost it’s original meaning and construct with the Right Reverend.

    Losing her “credentials” is the least of her concerns. Credentials can be purchased about anywhere these days. What is missing is any integrity to the real Jesus in the bible–not the social creation of fluff-n-stuff nearly unanimously dribbled by female “clergy” everywhere.

    Why does the scripture prohibit female Elders/Bishop/Presbytery/Pastor–head of a local church body? Look no further.

    Not surprisingly, there is not one scriptural reference given by Rev. for her “COMING OUT” . Because there is not one.
    In fact, there is no bible reference to be found anywhere. Only a self-promoting, self-congratulating, screaming–“I’M NOT HOMOPHOBIC–DON’T HATE ME.” “See how religious/spiritual/loving I am by ignoring God and loving the world by conforming to it?”

    Also a reminder of James 3:1 “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.”

    Ministers (all disciples) who defy the Word of God for this and any reason must give an account to God.

    Embodied Grace is this. Telling the truth in compassion and love.

    Homosexuality, Gluttony, Kleptomania, Adultery, etc.–THESE ARE ALL ADVERBS NOT NOUNS. They are behaviors, not new forms of human beings.

    True hope for people who act homosexually, just as those who have chosen to live a lifestyle of adultery, can be found. But not while there is denial and misleading for any reason.

    “Don’t you know that evil people won’t have a share in the blessings of God’s kingdom? Don’t fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual 10 will share in God’s kingdom. Neither will any thief or greedy person or drunkard or anyone who curses and cheats others. 11 Some of you used to be like that. But now the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of God’s Spirit have washed you and made you holy and acceptable to God.” (I Cor. 6:9-11)

    Further study: https://openhandspublications.com/2019/01/29/how-do-i-know-if-i-am-gay/

  • To agree with your statement and to further emphasize it because of the lies elsewhere:
    From the Wycliffe Bible – 1382-1395
    “9 Whether ye know not, that wicked men shall not wield the kingdom of God? Do not ye err; neither lechers, neither men that serve maumets [neither men serving to idols], neither adulterers, neither lechers against kind, neither they that do lechery with men,

    10 neither thieves, neither avaricious men [neither covetous men, or niggards], neither men full of drunkenness, neither cursers, neither raveners, shall wield the kingdom of God.

    11 And ye were sometime these things [And these things ye were sometime]; but ye be washed, but ye be hallowed, but ye be justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”

  • while you like to flatten the bible to be only the voice of christ, in fact jesus, the christ, never mentioned homosexuality or any confused allusion to such . paul did . and while you choose to believe that all paul said is to be understood as exactly as you interpret it, most scholars and bible readers won’t .

    love you Sandi but you’re wrong here .

  • With the popularity of the ex-homosexual movement, your group of immutable, innate homosexuals dwindles down to nothing, proving Christ correct that He will heal us of our sin.

  • I am all for welcoming anyone into the body of Christ. But to condone a marriage and encourage a physical love that is named a sin by the Bible I do not believe is what Christ would want us to do.

  • the wycliffe bible was translated from then current translation of the latin vulgate which jerome had translated from the greek and then again from the hebrew . thus the wycliffe wording of any text is not the strongest foundation for what the bible means .

    in no way can you interpret the story of sodom as “sex” . the men of sodom “both old and young” demanded the two strangers be delivered out to them . this was nothing but a demand to have two to rape . there was no suggestion of anything that can be called sex . it was to be taking and domination .

    homosexuality in the modern world is a world separate from those “both old and young” .

  • See my comment above if you need some insight into the Greek/Hebrew.

    “men beders” – that seems pretty clear.

  • ” If churches cannot say what God’s law is or what conduct is good or evil, they are of little value.”
    Exactly, they are of little value. I’m glad you understand.
    “. Instead, we have ministers and religions who have taken it upon themselves to speak for God, while disagreeing and contradicting each other.”
    Exactly. They presume to speak for god. I’m glad you understand.
    ” It also seems necessary that there must be some consequence for those ministers who violate the laws of God or assist others in doing so in some significant way—who commit malpractice. ”
    By your own statements, they are all committing mal[practice. ” I’m glad you understand.

  • So there will be a place for you as an unrepentant purveyor of false witnessing and reviling.

  • More fine analysis and wisdom from Ben in Oakland. We won;t always agree Ben, but I love it when you call us to task and make us think. Thank you for your kindness as well.

  • So I have read your article and even though I completely agree with your heart, I disagree with your conclusion. First off, scripturally speaking, homosexuality is a sin no matter how you look at. It doesn’t matter whether you look at Hebrew Testament or Greek Testament, the attitude is the same. It IS a sin. God created the concept of marriage and blessed it in Genesis as being defined as “one man, one woman”. There are no other configurations valid, because God defined it and He does not change His mind on what is defined as a sin. The concept of homosexuality was created by Satan and as alluring as it is, it will never be holy. I say this as a man who spent most of his life in rebellion against God trying to figure out a way remain gay while being righteous. I know the struggle that gay people have, and I also know that leaving behind that lifestyle is precisely what sets us free, though not easily.

    God has high standards. They are impossible to reach without His help. Many things that God asks us to do are difficult. Ridding one’s life of homosexuality is one of these difficult things that God asks us to do when we follow Him. You make an erroneous assumption that God is asking gay people to live a lifetime alone without marriage. What God is actually asking gay people to do is both pray and deeply search their own hearts and past to find all of the dark spiritual roots caused them to turn gay in the first place. It isn’t easy, and it takes years to do, but is definitely possible and is utterly transformative. Many Christians who like to bash gay people make it sound like it is a simple choice, but the reality is that it requires God’s deliverance from the desire. They use this rhetoric to attack and demean gay people and this isn’t right at all. God’s heart is love and His will is to save ALL people who will embrace Him. I am convinced that the only time God truly gives up on a gay person, or really anyone for that matter is when their heart is so obsessed with committing evil that nothing will turn them from their evil ways. God is fair and discerning and He sees our hearts and knows the struggles we have been given, and gives us grace and mercy even though we don’t deserve it. That being said, grace and mercy are not infinite. To answer your statement about Jesus telling people not to sin anymore, I believe that no one can stop sinning immediately, it has to be worked on over time, but that doesn’t mean we are given the right to be spiritually lazy either. Each person is a certain distance from the Kingdom of God and if they are not actively and righteously moving towards the Kingdom, then they are either actively or passively moving away from the Kingdom, and it is of no benefit to a person to not tell them this. In fact it is to their detriment. No matter how you look at it, LBGTQ is moving away from God. Anyway, I am done with this poorly articulated and poorly edited post now.

  • again, that does not stop it from being correct or what I have been taught to be correct. You’re barking up the wrong tree more
    I suggest you check 2 timothy 3:16-17

  • Thank you, Glenn.

    I will admit I was being a bit snarky, but only a little bit. So my apologies for that.

    The question for me is exactly that. Whom are we to listen to, and how will affect people? Who is telling the truth, and who has an agenda that does not require truth?

  • thank you for your testimony Mathias. My prayer is that it will encourage others to see that Christ does cleanse us from our sins – plural

  • which makes your point irrelevant as male on female rape would still be, according to you, a heterosexual act .

    and would you then condemn heterosexual acts because someone did rape ? no i would guess .

    by the same measure what happened in sodom does not condemn the good, only the crime that occurred .

  • Parker, if you are born again, you can throw that fear away. Christ does not give us a gift and then take it back. Don’t let anyone tell you that you can lose your salvation, if you are truly born again. It is a lie from the pit of Hell, designed to make Christ look like a liar.

  • No, I said homosexual. Also, I suggest that you read Genesis 18 & 19. It seems like you need to be refreshed on the scripture

  • except its not . the greek word, used only as a word by paul, has been translated as pedophilia, and as prostitution or temple prostitution . the meaning is unclear .

    it is however convenient for some to press this one translation in order to have some backup for their thought that homosexuality is not acceptable .

  • no need to. You’re wrong. I suggest you read Genesis 18&19 again, and refresh your memory

  • the part where you assume that it applies to the modern idea of homosexuality rather than ancient problems of pedophilia or prostitution .

  • your way of deflecting other viewpoints is to tell people to reread whatever . i did that well before you wrote .

    respond to my point . you assume that because the rape that was demanded would be man on man, it means that rape was not the problem ?

    the story is what it is . rape .

  • It has been translated “temple prostitution” by those with a pro-LGBT agenda.

    We know how the law it was derived from (Lev.20:13) was understood by 1st century Jews like Paul. Flavius Josephus, who received the exact same legal training as Paul, discussed it in the context of the laws of marriage, not the laws of idol worship.

    In fact, the Midrash and the Babylonian Talmud, from the same time period, actually discuss same-sex marriage itself.

  • some of the ancients translated it “temple prostitution” . i am surprised to learn that they had a pro-lgbt agenda .

  • homosexual rape
    I suggest you re-read Genesis 18&19 again and refresh your memory (edited)

  • Christ expected His people to refrain from homosexual sex before and after His incarnation, (edit)
    Are you trying to indicate that fornication is not a sin, also?

  • chambers does call for those gay and lesbian to be celibate (as the catholic church does), but his position is a tad more nuanced than you say :

    “I look at gay and lesbian people who are in committed relationships and I believe they can reflect the image of God,” Chambers says. “That belief has continued to evolve, but heterosexuals don’t have a corner on the market of healthy, holy relationships.”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/the-man-who-dismantled-the-ex-gay-ministry/408970/

  • and you know this because you assume that, though jesus of nazareth said absolutely nothing on the subject, you know what he meant by means of other verses in paul and leviticus . and you know exactly what those mean to the christ .

    right .

  • Except that in the portions of the Septuagint which actually DO refer to temple prostitutes, an entirely different word was used.

    And Paul used that word in addition to “arsenokoites.” Odd that he would refer to prostitutes and prostitutes.

  • so we are back to killing people are we ?

    now you explain how the condemnation remains but the punishment has been changed .

    i love how inventive you are .

    “…everyone who is sexually immoral or impure….” we do agree that the bible condemns those who give themselves over to lust : that means everyone, hetersexual or other .

  • Execution by stoning was the punishment under the civil laws of ancient Israel, a theocracy. We don’t have that in the United States.

  • as he used two different words to refer to what likely different acts, it is not strange at all .

  • so we should advocate to change american law so that we can follow the bible ?

    i am sure that you don’t mean that . but then what is the relevance of your comparison .

  • “Pornoi” is MASCULINE plural for prostitute/sexually immoral. How does that differ from what you are claiming that “arsenokoite” means?

  • It isn’t necessary to follow the penal code that was given to another nation but not ours.

    However, Leviticus 20 indicates that God DID judge and reject other nations, quite apart from the then-nonexistent Torah, for the sexual practices that were listed therein — which is why the Jerusalem Council retained them for Gentile Christians.

  • “Flavius Josephus, who received the exact same legal training as Paul….”

    that is pushing probability . it would be similar to suggesting that two people who passed the bar in virginia got the exact same legal training though one went to the university of virginia and the other the liberty university school of law .

  • TRUE OR FALSE: “A hermeneutical framework is always required, no matter what you’re reading.”

    FALSE. According to Oxford Universities Dictionary, “hermeneutic [means] a method or theory of interpretation.” That, however, is forbidden by The Christ Jesus and His 1st apostles & disciples. WATCH THIS (lest you offend God, too):

    (1) Matthew 15:6 – “You invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition [including your traditional method or theory of interpretation].”

    (2) Luke 8:15 – “The seed in the good soil … are [not the ones who possess a method or theory of interpretation but only] the ones who the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”

    (3) Luke 11:28 – “Blessed are those [who do not possess a method or theory of interpretation, but] who hear the word of God and observe it.”

    (4) Acts 8:14 and Acts 11:1 – “The apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God … [And] the apostles and the brethren throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God … [No, they didn’t hear that they had applied methods or theories of interpretation.]”

    (5) 2 Corinthians 2:17 – “We are not like many, peddling the word of God [and subjecting it to hermeneutics], but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.”

    (6) 2 Corinthians 4:2 – “Not … adulterating the word of God [made subject to hermeneutics, it is] by the manifestation of truth [that we are] commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.”

    (7) Ephesians 6:17 – “Take [not hermeneutics, but] The Helmet of Salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”

    (8) 1 Thessalonians 2:13 – We constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men [made subject to hermeneutics], but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.”

  • FYII (For Your Insult to Intelligence), HERMENEUTICS IS NOT OF GOD & JESUS.

    (1) “The term hermeneutics is often traced back to the ancient Greek figure of Hermes, the messenger of the gods. In Plato, hermeneutic knowledge is understood as revealed and intuitive, and hence different from truth-oriented and discursively based theory. Yet it was Plato’s Socratic method, as brought to life in the dialogues themselves, that … most profoundly came to influence hermeneutics … The writings of Augustine further shaped hermeneutics in that he emphasized the speculative nature of language (i.e., its world-disclosing capacity).”

    (2) “The methods of allegorical interpretation (finding hidden, spiritual meaning behind the literal and historical words) or typological interpretation … were already … at hand in [ancient rabbinical] Jewish practices … The Catechetical School of Alexandria in Egypt … became famous as home of the allegorical or spiritual interpretation by figures like Clement of Alexandria and Origen”.

    Source: (1) Kristin Gjesdal, “Hermeneutics”, Oxford Bibliographies, August 26, 2011. (2) Dirkie Smit, “Reading the Bible through the ages? Historical and hermeneutical perspectives”, Stellenbosch Theological Journal, volume 1, number 2, year 2015.

  • Acts specifically refers to Gamaliel, the grandson of Hillel (of the more lenient school of Pharisaical thought) as the teacher and mentor of Paul. Josephus was also a Pharisee (as well as a priest by descent) and wrote of Gamaliel in the most glowing of terms.

  • The Gospel of The Christ Jesus right there in verse 11, folks & yolks! – “Some of you used to be like that [like LGBTs]”!

  • Whatever he said seems to have so frightened some people that they got it deleted as spam.

  • You’re talking about the same Alan Chambers who refuses to call himself gay? Refuses to call himself homosexual? Refuses to call himself bisexual? The one happily married to his female wife Leslie? No boyfriends, no spare tires? Never once walked back any of the things he said Jesus did for him personally? Is it THAT Alan Chambers?

    But now you’re claiming that Alan is somehow, magically bisexual without providing ANY evidence at all, not even a simple Gay Bar sighting, a self-confession, or at least a juicy Grindr accusation? Is that how you Gay Activists operate these days — unable to provide the slightest evidence for your accusations?

  • “God hates fags”is a quote from the Westboro Baptist Church’s stock of slogans. You’d have trouble finding any Christian on this board who agrees with them.

    But a bigger problem is your adoption and application of the Progressive rhetorical strategy: “The policies you promote are immoral. I can see that clearly, but you cannot. Thus, I’m a good person, and you’re a bad one…so I win the argument.”

    Get back to me when you learn to distinguish the person from the viewpoint. Until then, you’re just a divisive pot-stirrer.

  • ” What kind of psychological needs are met when people create an egotistical genocidal maniac to worship?”

    I think we are talking about two very different groups of people in the ancient world, and to a somewhat lesser extent today. Left to themselves, I doubt that the ancient ignorant, uneducated, and illiterate masses had a need for an egotistical genocidal maniac to worship.The other group was much smaller, but still ignorant, and they were using fraud to obtain dominion over the masses, so a key strategy was to instill fear within the masses resulting in the need to worship an egotistical genocidal maniac.

    In the both the ancient world and today, I’d say that “worshiping god,” “praising god,” and “glorifying god” are nothing but euphemisms for “kissing god’s butt” in a desperate effort to avoid his infamous wrath and perhaps even gain some personal favors.

  • Translation: “God has had 2000 years to bring his thinking into line with mine, and has resolutely refused to do so. Thus, he’s not worthy of your attention.

    I’m sure that when God wants to take human counsel on how He should be thinking about love and justice, you’ll be the first one He turns to for advice.

  • “who has an agenda that does not require truth?” Homosexuals with their immutable and innate lies and all of the innocent, gullible people they direct onto the path to death.

  • They’ve ratcheted up the spam filters.

    It appears that acceptable size is now about 1/3 smaller than it had been and they’ve become ruthless on urls – thus lots {DOT} in my posts.

  • Alan chambers said no one changes. He admitted every day is a challenge for him.

    From the Wikipedia article on him…

    Chambers says that he has mostly overcome his attraction to men (although he does speak openly about his own ongoing sexual attraction to men[8]); however, he rejects the term ex-gay.[9][10] He is married to Leslie Chambers and has two adopted children.[3][11] He travels extensively and is a frequent speaker and guest lecturer at conferences, churches and college campuses. He has debated at many university campuses, such as the University of California at Berkeley, Pepperdine University and Reformed Theological Seminary.

    Prior to Exodus International’s annual conference in 2012, Chambers stated, “I do not believe that cure is a word that is applicable to really any struggle, homosexuality included…. For someone to put out a shingle and say, ‘I can cure homosexuality’ — that to me is as bizarre as someone saying they can cure any other common temptation or struggle that anyone faces on Planet Earth.”[8] In July 2012, while appearing on NBC’s Hardball, Chambers stated that he always believed the catchphrase “Pray away the gay” to be a lazy stereotype and one that he never used, as it invalidates the nature of the complex issue surrounding homosexuality. Chambers went on to tell host Michael Smerconish that he has same-sex attraction, and for anyone to say he does not have temptations, or that he could never be tempted, or does not have same-sex attraction is not true.[12][13] He has also come out as bisexual, by admitting to having experienced attraction to both sexes.[14]

    Now, what were you telling me?

  • when you use a word with little histrory, you don’t know what it means . your point above has every heteorsexual woman a “man-beder” .

  • you came in here to my response to Sandi where she said that the leviticus verses were still in force for christians . your note that was for israel and not the u.s. is not pertinent to Sandi’s argument . those condemnation are to be kept . though somehow the first part is in force but the second part is cancelled .

    the council of jerusalem mentioned some items from the hebrew scriptures . they did not retained all for either the gentile nor jewish christians .

    immorality is not the act but the obsession and the lust . either straight or gay can be obsessed and lustful, and either can be loving, concerned and living in grace .

  • your point is that it must be different ? sometimes a repeat of a similar word emphasizes what is being said .

  • it still does not mean that josephus agreed in all ways with gamaliel nor that josephus and paul agreed with much .

  • you know fornication was not the subject and i was not referring to it . i was referring to the demanded rape .

    just as in the similar story at judges 19:20-30 it is the murder, rape to be condemned not any fornication .

  • You just made the point that it must be different, and now you’re arguing that it isn’t. Which is it?

  • It does demonstrate, however, that the 1st century Jewish understanding of the verse from which “arsenokoite” is derived was not anything to do with idol worship.

    Which makes sense, for we certainly don’t reject incest, bestiality and adultery on the basis of any relation to idol worship. This is simply a nonsense argument fabricated by the unfortunate John Boswell forty years ago.

  • The Jerusalem Council decoded quite simply that the same things would be expected of Gentile Christians that had always been expected of righteous Gentiles. Abstention from blood, sexual immorality, and known pagan sacrificial foods.

    Immorality is both acts AND the heart desire that prompts them. The former we can resist, while the latter we can not completely be rid of while we wear corrupt mortal flesh — which is why we had to have a Savior.

  • No, “the great irony of your ‘God Hates Fags’ Evangelicals (fantasy) is that it shows what a farce” your pose of objectivity is.

  • Since the Bible pretty clearly forbids female pastors, it is no surprise that this individual would support homosexual behavior. Certainly have the constitutional right to practice their religion however they want. But what mystifies me is why anyone would follow a so called spiritual leader of the Christian tradition who just picks and choses as he or she pleases from the book upon which it is founded. If the book is right then it is right. If it is not right then these so religious leaders are next to useless as all they are doing is wrapping up human wisdom in divine mythos.

  • LGBTs’ pick & choose”, self-styled post-modernism (a la my college hero, Michel Foucault, for one) is anti-foundation, anti-grounding, deconstructivist, anti-gender, anti-philosophy, anti-Jesus. In other words, you’re right, “son”: THEIR MINDS ARE MESSED UP. And oh yeah, speaking of which, they’re anti-Socrates too.

  • The history of the compound word is seen in the Leviticus passages in which the two words appear together in the context of same-sex relations (not heterosexual relations).

    It is very clear. The special pleading of LGBT advocates otherwise is both desperate and risible.

  • I see. You seem to have an issue with the etymology of the word itself. Fine, perhaps we can both just agree that the Bible should be read as though it is the revealed truth of God?

  • I don’t understand why you are being so antagonistic. I was not trying to insult you, and I’m sorry you took it that way.

    You quoted an Oxford dictionary as saying “hermeneutic [means] a method or theory of interpretation.” I would agree. It is one’s method of interpretation. It’s how you read something. In many of the Bible passages you reference, a proper reading of Scripture is being encouraged.

    In Matthew 15:6, for example, Jesus corrected the Pharisee’s false hermeneutic (interpreting Scripture in a way that amounted to works-based religion). In Luke 8:15, Jesus talked about those who received the Word with an “honest and good heart, and hold it fast,” and essentially made the case that those who do so have a better hermeneutic than those who receive it with joy but don’t let it take root in their lives. In Luke 11:28, Jesus says “blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it,” thus implying that receiving (hearing/reading) the Word of God as authoritative for our lives is a better way of viewing Scripture (a better hermeneutic, if you will) than simply reading it and not doing what it says. James 1:22-25 expounds on the importance of not just reading it but also obeying it. A wrong hermeneutic says you can read the Bible as a collection of men’s opinions. The correct hermeneutic says you must read it for what it is — God’s holy Word.

    You seem to be using some of these other verses to try and support your own views by inserting your own words, but it’s not really working.

    In 1 Thessalonians 2:13, Paul thanked God that the people in Thessalonica were receiving God’s Word as really from God (which is a proper hermeneutic), not just as the word of men (which is a wrong hermeneutic).

    There is only one proper interpretation of God’s Word (2 Peter 1:20-21) — the interpretation given by God. If we have an improper hermeneutic, we will fall into false interpretations of the Bible. I’m sorry you have such a struggle with the word “hermeneutics.” If you would prefer, we can just say “how we read Scripture.”

  • Every Christian and every denomination picks what they want to believe. That’s why there are so many denominations. That’s why they often condemn each other.

  • They won’t say god hates f*gs, but they certainly think it, and have no problem making it clear that they think so themselves.

  • “There is only one proper interpretation of God’s Word (2 Peter 1:20-21) — the interpretation given by God.”
    ____________

    Ah, the idiotic fundamentalist BS. No wonder you can’t make a rational argument.

  • My first thought would be that it is sin. I would need to double check my Bible some more, but thats my first thought.

  • Your blatant hatred of anything and anyone non-Christian is noted.

    BTW, have you ever wondered why your deity cannot seem to get rid of one pesky demon…?

  • Why would you think that?

    Jesus calls all people to repent: adulterers from their adultery, homosexuals from their homosexual sin, atheists from their disbelief.

    It’s part of His love for all mankind.

  • I can save you the trouble. It is a sin, one that is routinely ignored because the same wink-wink morality that condemns gay people allows heterosexuals and religious people to do whatever they want, as long as they say “sorry, Jesus”.

  • I agree. But does that condone that we are allowing gays to married as well? Both are sinful and should not be allowed in a church setting. Do you agree?

  • No. Because I believe in freedom of religion. I do not believe that any so called Christian has the right to condemn other Christians for not believing what they believe.

    And no. It’s called hypocrisy of the worst sort. Clean up your heterosexual house, your baptist house, your catholic house, rife with divorce and “annulments”, which is simply a bought and paid for divorce called by another name, and when you are without sin, then you may Feel free to tell other people that they need to get right with god. Something about motes and beams comes to mind. Something about judge not comes to mind. Something about Jesus condemning the hypocrites comes to mind.

  • I’m not condemning anyone. Freedom of religion is perfectly fine. Its America. You don’t need a Christian church to get married. Are you saying that what the Bible says is sin, in both instances, should be ignored in by those who follow Christ? Hypocrites are always going to be here. I’m a hypocrite at times and that’s something we can all work on. But if I am a pastor teaching others how to follow Christ, should I continue to preform heterosexual and gay marriages that are in sin?

  • Thanks for this and all the best to you, brother!

    Glenn Harrell, “Transgender Methodist Pastor wins the coveted METHODIST CHURCH John Wesley Hermeneutics Award—Tempers flare”, openhandspublications, February 26, 2019.

  • Anytime a psychologist puts out a shingle and claims to be able to cure anything, it’s bizarre.

    I believe he was telling you that there are people who conquer same sex inclinations.

  • I’m an old white straight male Christian, and I applaud your bravery and Christ-like love for those who, in too many churches, are treated as “the least of these”.
    (I’m also old enough and Southern enough to remember racial segregation, which was also embedded in many “Christian” churches.)

  • “Why would you think that?”

    Because if your mythology was real (and its not) its means your demigod cannot accept the reality that folks are born LGBT.

    LGBT folks cannot change how they are born. Thus it means in your highly paranoid and primitive mythology your demigods cannot except folks born LGBT. In other words your inept deities hate LGBT folks just for being born.

    In short: Jesus hates gays.

    Thankfully though, your mythology is just that; mythology.

  • Did Christ say to commit genocide, INCLUDING all women and children, except for the young virgin girls, in Numbers 31?

  • If you stop having heterosexual sex, do you stop being a Heterosexual?

    Please explain to every elderly couple everywhere…

  • No, I’m not. I’m female.

    Not all gay people are men… but I guess that’s “news to you”!

  • God did not create man sinful. The idea that He created anyone LGBT s a lie. It is a result of sin, which man himself caused.

    “Do not say, ‘Because of the Lord I left the right way’;
    Do not say, ‘It was He who led me astray’:
    for He has no need of a sinful man.

    It was He who created man in the beginning,
    and left him in the power of his own inclination.
    If you will, you can keep the commandments,
    and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.

    Before a man are life and death,
    and whichever he chooses will be given to him

    He has not commanded anyone to be ungodly,
    and He has not given anyone permission to sin.” (Sirach 15:11-12,14-15,17,19)

    You mythology about LGBTs is just that, mythology.

    Welcome to the real world.

  • Homosexual women are called Lesbians.

    Hence the L in LGBT.

    But I guess that’s “news to you”

  • Any mythology such as yours that cannot accept facts, science and reality is harmful, ignorant and insane.

    Welcome to reality.

  • Any mythology such as yours that cannot accept facts, science and reality – and for example thinks that a man who imagines that he is a woman, actually IS a woman, and must be treated and addressed as if that were true (in some countries this being enforced by enforced by the state), is harmful, ignorant, insane, and a threat to the people of the world.

    Welcome to sanity.

  • In your mythological beliefs a deity created a male proto-human out of clay.  Then it took a male to female genetic clone of it so the two could breed. Thus whole human race was born.

    As creation myths go I’ve always found that one to be one of the silliest. Oddly though, this creation myth suggests that the human body is malleable and that gender is not static and is in fact fluid.

    Curiously though there’s the second creation myth that says god made humanity in its image; male and female. Which suggests that the god of the bible is both genders  thus making it intersex and/ or transgender. Both myths support the reality that 1 in every 1200-2000 are born intersex. 

    The plain and simple fact is that gender and gender orientation was never set in stone. Trying to deny that with highly paranoid, pathetic and primitive mythologies is quite frankly insane.

    Wake up and join the rest for the real world.

  • Well, after that, if I’m Rick I would probably find another argument other than “welcome to the real world.” 😄

  • What is truly oxymoronic and sad is folks like you trying so desperately to make your highly paranoid and primitive superstitious mythologies fit into the real world and failing miserably.

    Folks are gay and there’s nothing wrong with that. Grow up and join the real world.

  • In your sad little paranoid and superstitious world you paint your demigod is homophobic and bigoted.

    It’s all very unhealthy.

  • Yes, for in your little paranoid and superstitious world your deities are petty, bigoted, hateful and homophobic.

    Its rather insane and sad really.

  • Why are you asking an atheist in the first place? The natural man can not receive the things of God.

  • Since Genesis 1 uses the masculine singular for God, there is no basis to your claim that He made mankind in “its” image.

    The plain and simple fact is that rest of your line of reasoning fails from that point on.

    Wake up and smell the coffee.

  • Technically Genesis said “us” which supports my point.

    Btw, my coffee was tasty, thank you. Your highly paranoid and primitive superstitious mythology is however very unhealthy.

    Time to put away your childish mythology and grow up.

  • Anything even remotely “oxymoronic and sad … highly paranoid and primitive superstitious” is way better than the Ashiesms of these heroes of yours in theory and practice:
    David Silverman
    Lawrence Krauss
    Al Franken
    Devin Patrick Kelley
    Craig Stephen Hicks
    Richard Dawkins

  • Anything even remotely “paranoid and superstitious … petty, bigoted, hateful and homophobic … insane and sad” would be way better than the Ashiesms of these heroes of yours in theory and practice:
    David Silverman
    Lawrence Krauss
    Al Franken
    Devin Patrick Kelley
    Craig Stephen Hicks
    Richard Dawkins

  • He also never condemned short people or people with green eyes and red hair…

    Are they *also* assumed to be “sinful” just like you do with your LGBTQ brothers and sisters in Christ?

  • You must have missed the Gospels… They’re in the front of the NT. Jesus loved the least of these. Why don’t you?

  • Because genitals are super important to mentally understanding scripture.
    *eyeroll*
    /#ObviousSarcasm

  • Being a gay human being isn’t even close to being an adulterer! Stop grasping at strawmen.

  • Well said, ”TilTuesday, and I agree — it’s very sad that they *totally* miss the love of Christ in favor of their idolization of the OT Law.

  • Nathan Jessup (in A Few Good Men) to SA (lami): “You can’t handle the truth, SA (lami)! We live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded – who’s gonna do it – you?! You SA (lami)? I have a greater responsibility that you can possibly fathom. You weep and you curse. You have the luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that my existence saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall! We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something, you use them as a punchline. I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself, to a SA (lami) who rises and sleeps, under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and than questions the manner in which I provide them! I’d rather you just said ‘thank you’, and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a d*mn, what you think you are entitled to!”

    SA (lami), whimpering, tail between legs: (cliffhanger to be continued)

  • If you don’t think these ranters in Evangelical clothing hate gay people, you haven’t been paying attention..

  • LOL…
    You appeal to a fictional *movie* to to try make your point? Hahahahaha!

    Boy, I know FAR more about film that you ever will. And you’re so way off the mark that it’s ludicrous.

  • The molecular formula for water is not “H2O”, SA (lami)! In fact, it can’t be formulated online – HA-HA

  • “So God created man in HIS own image…”

    The “us” in “Let us make man…” refers to the single united action of the Trinity in creation. No gender other than masculine is used in the passage to refer to God,so the “us” is to be likewise so construed and does not support your point.

    Looks like you’ve been drinking decaf by mistake. Your deluded LGBT ideology is mentally unhealthy.

    Time to put away your make-believe and grow up. Men do not magically turn into women, nor do women magically turn into men.

    Time for you to come out of the nursery and join the grown-up world.

  • Adultery and homosexual relations are both sinful acts.

    So yes, they are alike in that respect.

  • So you readily admit that your God is bigoted, hateful and homophobic.

    Thank you for your cooperation.

  • No, she got it right. Confirmed by both Scripture and 2000 years of clear Christian tradition.

  • LOL — Keep displaying your ignorance for the class!

    “Water is a tiny bent molecule with the molecular formula H2O, consisting of two light hydrogen atoms attached to each 16-fold heavier oxygen atom.

  • So says every one of the 40,000 different “Christian” denominations! They all think that only *they* have the “correct” and “clear” interpretation.

  • They are alike in that both adultery and homosexual relations are sinful acts.

    Sheesh, you people are dense…

  • “40,000 different…denominations”

    Actually, there are really only 3 denominations: Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants (who have 38,998 subsets).

  • No, they are not alike.
    Let me spell it out again, s l o w l y for you…

    I am a gay woman.
    I am married.
    I am faithful to my spouse.
    I am not adulterous.

    Take your childish accusations elsewhere!

  • God, Jesus, His Apostles, and the consistent 2000 year tradition of the Church disagree with you.

    I will follow them, not you.

  • Let me spell it out for you, dear.

    Homosexual relations are sinful.

    Adultery is sinful.

    BOTH are sinful.

    They are alike in that they are both sinful, but they are not the same sin.

    BUT NO ONE said you were engaging in both of those sins. Just the former.

  • Jesus condemned the sin in Leviticus 18 and 20.

    And in the New Testament, the only forms of sexual activity he recognized were heterosexual marriage and celibacy.

  • TS–Exactly Correct! Spot on.

    But, acting out ones sexuality (homosexuality is an adverb–not a noun–new class of personhood) while professing to be a follower of Jesus Christ provides for the conflicts presented within Methodism/ Christianity as relating to the article. In Christianity, God creates all types of human beings, but “gay” ones is not on the list.

    For a non-Christian to act homosexually may well be perfectly normal, evn worthy of parade and celebration in a White House. All good in a pluralistic Representative Government like our country. All just fine while living decidedly without any stated moral restrictiveness or disallowance.

    The “success” of now having laws of the land removed should then be adequate to move forward. Alas, this has not been enough. The LGBTQ community wants to do to the rest of the world the very thing it hated when the rest of the world “condemned and judged” them in this way.

    FORCING NEW LAWS THAT RESTRICT AND DEMEAN ANOTHER PERSONS RIGHT OF FREE SPEECH. Companding pseudo laws that pretend to make everyone pretend.

    But, to attempt justification of such behaviors within the bounds of being a disciple of Jesus Christ, it becomes then abhorrent and an abject failure with a personal rebellion to any understanding of true biblical doctrine and the Christ who represents it.

    Then the Jesus of love becomes intimately involved because He had the nerve and hatred to say, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” How very judgemental and restrictive of Him! He never said, as our secular society so often insists he did, that love is to be defined as capitulation and “out with any truth”.
    So demonstrated in His final word to the devils temptation:

    5 Then the devil led Jesus up to a high place and quickly showed him all the nations on earth. 6 The devil said, “I will give all this power and glory to you. It has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 Just worship me, and you can have it all.”

    8 Jesus answered, “The Scriptures say:

    ‘Worship the Lord your God
    and serve only him!’” –Luke 4

    Then, FOR CHRISTIANITY AND PROFESSING CHRISTIANS —
    of homosexuality, the same can and must be said of ADULTERY.
    The same can and must be said of FORNICATION.

    I did say here: https://openhandspublications.com/2018/01/09/men-for-more-mfm-abolishing-adultery-marriage-and-divorce-for-good/

    The real solution to all of this for the world and non-Christians in it really is to either continue watering down Christianity –creating a benign straw-man, or to be rid of it all together. But let us not pretend that in doing so, we have done anything more than prolonged an obvious catastrophe and crisis of identity — purpose of life and living.

    I will gladly fight for the rights of people who choose to act homosexually and adulterously to be able to do so without government intrusion. (We will anyhow) Then vote on laws that represent the will of the people.
    (not everyone will be perfectly attended to for their personal preference–Including Christians).

    I will gladly endure the incorrect labels of Homo-phobic, Hateful, Ugly, Demeaning and so forth by those who apply this to me–just as a child may accuse a parent of “waeh-waeh-waeh–you don’t love me.”

    But I will never capitulate to the erroneous idea that the words Adultery and Homosexuality, etc. can be flippantly adjoined with the word and meaning of Christ and Christianity.

    There is no such thing as a “Christian” Baker, a “Christian” Doctor (any more than Christian medicine), a “Christian” musician (or music for that matter). And without any question or doubt, a Christian who acts out in adultery, fornication or homosexually can never become a Christian Fornicatir, Gay or Adulterer..

  • Rational would be not relying on highly paranoid and primitive superstitious mythologies to explain the world.

    When you finally dump your fantasies and grip reality let me know.

  • When a 1st century Jew speaks to a bunch of other 1st century Jews about sexual immorality making us unclean, yeah, it’s safe to assume he’s including all the behaviors that came under that classification.

    In any case, Jesus didn’t really condemn anyone during His 1st coming at all. He says the law has done that already. His mission was to provide a way for us to be saved and transformed.

  • You already lost by trying to prove that highly paranoid and primitive superstitious mythologies are actually rational and logic.

    Again when you finally dump your fantasies and accept reality let me know

  • It’s a pretty pathetic “god” that you imagine – who would need, or even want, a “website” to advance his agenda. I reject such a “god” too, by the way…so at least we’re agreed about something.

  • TLDR. Try again, without the false premises…

    Do you stop being a Heterosexual when you stop “acting” on your Heterosexual innate qualities? How’s that working out for you?

  • Jesus didn’t say anything in Leviticus. Do you eat shellfish? Wear mixed fiber clothing? Stone to death those who work of the Sabbath?

    Take your Antichrist legalism elsewhere.

  • Who says that gay green eyed red hair human beings are automatically apart from Christ? Many of us who are gay with green eyes and red hair are *kept* in the secure loving arms of our savior Jesus Christ.

  • Today, my “homosexual acts” have been making breakfast and lunch, cleaning the kitchen, picking up after my children, doing the laundry and folding clothes. Oh, and the *really scandalous* thing of wasting time on Disqus.

  • I thought this was a discussion about an intra-church matter. What sharia has to do with that I’m sure I don’t know.

  • Oh course you come with the empty argument that public places of business somehow can ignore the state and federal Non-Discrimination laws that they *agreed to follow* when the signed their public business license…

  • We all start out apart from Christ because of sin. Then comes repentance and adoption into the Kingdom of God.

  • HpO: “Squawk! Blather-Blather, [bracket], Squawk! Blather-Blather, [bracket], Squawk! Blather-Blather, [bracket], ad infinitum…!

  • Every time you wear that Poly-Cotton blend you proclaim that you’re a walking “abomination”… Sheesh.
    *eyeroll*

  • When are you going after all the divorcees, Sandi? Aren’t you getting a little redundant?

  • Sure. And many gay people *are* Christians, a point you continue to dodge. Many of us were married in the holy sacrament and take our vows before God extremely seriously. I wish you could see that.

  • A promise before God to continue in one of the activities that nailed His son to a cross is hardly a “holy” anything. It’s a mockery.

    It’s about as holy as Herod’s “marriage” to his sister-in-law/half-niece Herodias — the one John the Baptist lost his head for openly and honestly calling out. Then as much as now, people can’t stand to hear the truth.

  • Well, I’ve been paying attention to your scurrilous comments (and those of like-minded others) — which is about the only place on this board I find Evangelicals “hating” gays.

    I realize you find it difficult to understand the concept of “love the sinner, hate the sin,” since your rule of thumb is “hate the viewpoint, hate the holder…despise the position, despise the position-taker.”

    That, of course, is the “natural” way most of us automatically react. Or to put it in “theological” terms (since you profess to speak as a “Christian”), it is the reflexively “fallen” (i.e., “sinful”) human response to dissent, disagreement, and challenge in general — blame the other guy for it (Genesis 3:12-13 never lose their relevance, do they?).

    It would seem obvious that part of out task as Christian believers would be to disarm our “fallenness” as far as possible and dismantle its internal structures of mental misdirection. But, to the contrary, you have embraced our fallen response and enshrined it as part of your credo. That alone should raise questions in your own mind whether you have grasped Christ’s Good News in the way He intends you to.

    But it probably won’t.

  • Your opinion that Christianity is a “highly paranoid and primitive superstitious mythology” is merely your own opinion.

    It is one which some of the world’s greatest thinkers and writers over the centuries would not agree with.

    When you are ready to dump your silly delusions – like a can turn into a woman – and rejoin the real world, let me know.

  • Oh, nice try at reversal.
    No, dear… You’re the one displaying bigotry against your LGBTQ brothers and sisters in Christ.

  • Oh, please! Contrive anything to advance your hatred and bigotry!
    NO, silly — gay people DID NOT nail Christ to the cross.

    YOU are making a mockery of our Creator, telling HIM how he was “supposed” to make people!

    How pathetic.

  • Oh look! Another religious illiterate, bringing up the that tired old trip about “shellfish”, “mixed fiber clothing”, and “the Sabbath”, as if any of that was required of Christians.It’s almost as if she’s never even heard of the Jerusalem Council, in which the Apostles clarified the relevance of the Law for Christians (Acts 15). Hint: No ban on Shellfish and co., but immorality (like homosexuality) is still verboten.

    Furthermore, Jesus is the Word, and as such was active in the Old Testament from the start of creation. (“By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made…” Psalm 33:6). So, yes, He was behind Leviticus as well.

    Take your religious illiteracy someplace where people are dumb enough to fall for it, maybe “JoeMyGod”.

  • Your opinion that the bible is the end word of some ancient legend of petty, hatefull and homophobic deities is just that; an opinion that is based on highly primitive and paranoid superstitious mythologies. No matter how you spin it that’s all it ever will be. Trying to convince or force other people to believe in your ridiculous fantasies is highly illogical and downright harmful. I suggest that you seek real help for your delusions.

    I wish you luck on your continued healing.

  • Hint: sexual immorality, like divorcees remarrying and actually being in ADULTERY.
    Oh, wait.
    Can’t go after divorcees… No, let’s ignore problems that Christ *actually* spoke about and kick around minorities that He didn’t even criticize!

    Hypocrite.

  • Those are not homosexual acts, as anyone can do them.

    Woman to woman sexual acts, however, would constitute “homosexual acts”.

  • You are sounding increasingly unhinged and desperate, probably from trying to convince others that it is rational to believe that a man can turn into a woman.

    How successful have you been at convincing others that “2+2=5”?

    Remember, “Big Brother loves you.”.

  • Yes, that would be adultery. Unless they divorced because their spouse committed adultery, as Jesus taught.
    Apart from that exception, they would be liable to excommunication.

    So I’m just not seeing the “hypocrisy” thing.

  • We ALL nailed Christ to the cross with out sins, TS. If you don’t know that, then you don’t even know what faith you’re professing.

    God doesn’t create us sinful — we are born with sinful natures that we inherit from our parents. It’s a burden to be resisted and overcome, not celebrated.

  • Like going to book club and maybe holding hands? Kissing my wife? Making love as a married couple?

    What’s your problem?
    Get your mind out of other people’s bedrooms.

  • No, they haven’t. They condemned pagan idol temple prostitution and pederasty — not at all the same as committed, loving, lifelong, faithful same sex marriages.

  • Not a “try” at anything. It was an expression of simple and straighforward bigotry, stereotying, broad-brushing, whatever you want to call it.

  • I don’t deny that all of us human beings are sinners. And that Christ died for our sins.

    I contest *your* faulty presumption that GOD didn’t create people the way that *you* would have preferred when He made some of us LGBTQ.

  • Jesus loved them should they renounce their sins, one of them being homosexuality, and turn to Him for forgiveness. He loves them enough to die for them, should they accept that gift and give Him their sins.

  • For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,[e] 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized 1 Corinthians 11:18

  • My mother was born predisposed to substance abuse. I don’t put that on God. It’s an unfortunate effect of being born into a fallen world, not how God “made” her.

    God prescribed a treatment, though: Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Gal.5:16).

  • Christ never asked them to take the job to begin with. Show us scripture where
    Christ calls these women to the pulpit

  • That is only what you fool yourself with TS. You are hurting yourself and everyone in your “household” with the lie that you tell yourself.
    Show us in scripture, equivalent to Leviticus where Christ endorses homosexuality

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
    Thanks

  • They lie to themselves, as you know Rick. The truth would destroy their fantasy world that they set for themselves and they may even attain life more abundantly rather than death,

  • Who’s hysterical?

    Just an fyi: all of the following say that homosexuality is perfectly normal:

    American Medical Association
    American Psychiatric Association
    American Psychological Association
    American Counseling Association
    National Association of Social Workers
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
    Child Welfare League of America
    American Association of School Administrators
    American Federation of Teachers
    National Association of School Psychologists
    American Academy of Physician Assistants
    National Education Association
    Royal College of Physicians
    Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality (SSSS)
    American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists (AASECT)
    World Health Organization
    Chinese Society of Psychiatry
    American Psychoanalytic Association
    British Association for Counseling and Psychotherapy
    UK Council for Psychotherapy
    Australian Medical Association
    Australian Psychological Society

    Oh, btw, thus may intrest you.

    Free your mind.

  • No honey, Your sin is what is drawing you from the love of Christ – His protection and His leading – is what you ignore to maintain an unhealthy “relationship”

  • Ben, we don’t need to hate you. You hate yourself enough by refusing Christ’s love and help. No one could hate you more than you do yourself

  • We need to think about what, precisely, these three stories are evidence *of*, and what they are not. What these references show is that three individuals claimed to have changed their sexuality. That’s it. The references don’t, in themselves, prove that their claims are accurate. Nor, of course, do three examples out of tens of thousands indicate a pattern.

  • Learn your scripture TS. That ended with Christ. He fulfilled all but the moral laws when He brought them into the New Testament

  • I’ll “go after” the divorcees when the homosexuals quit lying to themselves and the world that they are not sinning,
    thanks for caring

  • Funny how you ignore the actual sin of remarried adultery and focus on the lives of gay people who are not sinning.

  • Take up your complaint with how GOD makes other people with Him.

    Maybe you’d also prefer that non-white people be considered “sinning* for being how GOD made them too…

  • Did Christ command the Genocide and enforced Sex Slavery of young virgin girls in Numbers 31?!?

  • On the one hand, better still a “God [who] is bigoted, hateful and homophobic” than the Godlessness of the Ashiesms of these heroes of yours in theory and practice: David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss, Al Franken, Devin Patrick Kelley, Craig Stephen Hicks and Richard Dawkins!

    And on the other hand, better still a “God [who] is bigoted, hateful and homophobic” than, as JD fantasized “4 months ago” to “a year ago”, “the Divine [who] loves [JD] beyond measure … [and] has so much faith, devotion and love for [JD], love so profound; that if [JD] could just tap into the tiniest Inkling of that fath, love and devotion that [JD] could literally move mountains.”

  • Christ would not make someone in a manner that He calls “unnatural”, committing “shameful acts”, and “error” Romans 1

  • It is a choice, an exchange for what is unnatural for what is natural.
    “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.” Romans 1:26

  • It won’t work. On Disqus you can’t type a small 2 in the molecular formula for water. It won’t allow you to select the number 2 that you want to transform into a subscript between letter H and letter O. ‘Yo, SA (lami), you are such an – read my lips for the right pronounciation -ˈɪdɪət!

  • LGBT talking points.

    Homosexual sex is homosexual sex. All sinful in and of itself.

    The length of a sinful relationship does not change its sinfulness at all.

  • Plenty that I have known of. As long as it was for reasons other than adultery/faithlessness.

  • So Christ is going to say that it is in appropriate for heathen, yet, it is proper for His people, after He condemned it?

  • again, what about verse 23? It says that homosexuals chose to follow an idol which is true, and another sin on top of homosexuality. How does that support your point?

  • Just saying something is wrong doesn’t make it so. I think Americans who judge others and hide behind s thin veil of “religion” are the worst offenders of self-righteous hypocrisy. Thanks for proving that… again.

  • It still would not make homosexuality an un-sin. Learn your Bible if you want to present yourself as a Christian

  • You have no idea of what I ignore or don’t.
    Back to the topic – He was discussing how homosexuality is a sin.

  • Are you trying to censor scripture again TS?
    English Standard Version
    “but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

  • Feigning ignorance when you and I have discussed already on *numerous* occasions isn’t exactly aiding your position, Sandi Lukins in Windsor or whatever prior usernames you’ve had along the way…

  • Learn yours. Start by reading the four Gospels… You know, the ones with e incarnate Christ JESUS’ words and actions here on earth!

  • you cannot answer my question? Then why make the comment when you cannot substantiate it.

  • And where do the substantiate homosexuality as strongly as Christ condemns it in:

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • ALL THERE’S TO KNOW ABOUT MPB:

    “MPB … 4 years ago … [On] the question of whether LGBT persons can/should be considered members of the body of Christ, members of a church, etc. … I am willing to call anyone who accepts the resurrection and the core of the gospel of the grace of Christ a brother or sister, and I think it’s possible for believers to have good-faith disagreements over this issue without excluding one another from that body. If an LGBT person is sincere about responding to that grace, and if it is God’s will for that person to change, I have faith that God will make such change possible. If that person is sincere and no change takes place, I hope I also have the humility to consider the possibility that I could be mistaken about God’s will for that person (whether that means I’m mistaken in terms of doctrine, or correct in terms of doctrine but not in the way I’m living it out).”

  • We must obey what God says rather than what you say.

    If you have a problem with people following their religion, then you are most certainly a bigot.

    Why can’t you let believers believe what they do, instead of trying to alter their religion?

  • Seen them turned away at the Chalice by the Priest for that, and also for other reasons,

    Sorry if you are only familiar with lax “churches”.

  • Seen them turned away from the Chalice by the Priest for that, as well as for other reasons.

    Sorry if you are only familiar with lax “churches”.

  • A call to self-reflection is hardly “pharisaical” – but it opens the door to self-judgment…which will indeed resemble your pharisaical spectre if you’re worried about what that self-judgment will or should be.

  • TS–Exactly Correct! Spot on.

    But, acting out ones sexuality (homosexuality is an adverb–not a noun–new class of personhood) while professing to be a follower of Jesus Christ provides for the conflicts presented within Methodism/ Christianity as relating to the article. In Christianity, God creates all types of human beings, but “gay” ones is not on the list.

    For a non-Christian to act homosexually may well be perfectly normal, evn worthy of parade and celebration in a White House. All good in a pluralistic Representative Government like our country. All just fine while living decidedly without any stated moral restrictiveness or disallowance.

    The “success” of now having laws of the land removed should then be adequate to move forward. Alas, this has not been enough. The LGBTQ community wants to do to the rest of the world the very thing it hated when the rest of the world “condemned and judged” them in this way.

    FORCING NEW LAWS THAT RESTRICT AND DEMEAN ANOTHER PERSONS RIGHT OF FREE SPEECH. Companding pseudo laws that pretend to make everyone pretend.

    But, to attempt justification of such behaviors within the bounds of being a disciple of Jesus Christ, it becomes then abhorrent and an abject failure with a personal rebellion to any understanding of true biblical doctrine and the Christ who represents it.

    Then the Jesus of love becomes intimately involved because He had the nerve and hatred to say, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” How very judgemental and restrictive of Him! He never said, as our secular society so often insists he did, that love is to be defined as capitulation and “out with any truth”.
    So demonstrated in His final word to the devils temptation:

    5 Then the devil led Jesus up to a high place and quickly showed him all the nations on earth. 6 The devil said, “I will give all this power and glory to you. It has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 Just worship me, and you can have it all.”

    8 Jesus answered, “The Scriptures say:

    ‘Worship the Lord your God
    and serve only him!’” –Luke 4

    Then, FOR CHRISTIANITY AND PROFESSING CHRISTIANS —
    of homosexuality, the same can and must be said of ADULTERY.
    The same can and must be said of FORNICATION.

    The real solution to all of this for the world and non-Christians in it really is to either continue watering down Christianity –creating a benign straw-man, or to be rid of it all together. But let us not pretend that in doing so, we have done anything more than prolonged an obvious catastrophe and crisis of identity — purpose of life and living.

    I will gladly fight for the rights of people who choose to act homosexually and adulterously to be able to do so without government intrusion. (We will anyhow) Then vote on laws that represent the will of the people.
    (not everyone will be perfectly attended to for their personal preference–Including Christians).

    I will gladly endure the incorrect labels of Homo-phobic, Hateful, Ugly, Demeaning and so forth by those who apply this to me–just as a child may accuse a parent of “waeh-waeh-waeh–you don’t love me.”

    But I will never capitulate to the erroneous idea that the words Adultery and Homosexuality, etc. can be flippantly adjoined with the word and meaning of Christ and Christianity.

    There is no such thing as a “Christian” Baker, a “Christian” Doctor (any more than Christian medicine), a “Christian” musician (or music for that matter). And without any question or doubt, a Christian who acts out in adultery, fornication or homosexually can never become a Christian Fornicatir, Gay or Adulterer..

  • I’ll give you one thing: you’re right about “clouds.” They never die — they just dissipate their substance into the anti-cloud (i.e., drier) atmosphere around them…and disappear. I suggest you follow suit.

  • Okay. Coupla things.

    For one, the third comment is in no way contradictory to the other two. In the third comment, I was addressing rules of evidence, simply making the point that three individual cases out of many thousands don’t constitute proof of a pattern. That is not at all the same thing as saying change is not *possible* (especially where God is concerned). The other comments, if they’re taken in the context which you have conveniently excluded, are about the fact that it’s not our job to judge people or force change upon them. A la Billy Graham, it’s God’s job to judge, the Holy Spirit’s job to convict, and my job to love.” My point there was that there is no need to imagine that we can do better than the Holy Spirit at the job of convicting, or a better job than God at making judgments, which is precisely why the church need not fear accepting LGBT members. If we’re all on the path together, seeking truth together, whatever change needs to happen with any of us will happen. There’s no need for us to force a shape on to the action of the Spirit. I also wasn’t referring to the change you want: while it’s not impossible for God to change anything, the change the Spirit requires could just as easily be a change in the hearts of those who are trying to do the Holy Spirit’s job for him. Of course, this was clear in the context of the other remarks I made in that conversation, within the context of the whole conversation.

    Which leads me to the other point: The statements you quote were not made publicly, but on a private listserv to which only members of a single institution have access. This can only mean that we are colleagues at the same institution. That means that you have taken comments from that private, intra-institutional listserv, cherry-picked them and rearranged them with no reference to their original context, and then posted them, without permission, in a public forum in order to intentionally (if ineffectively) smear one of your own colleagues. I’ll let God and the Holy spirit do their jobs with regard to that, too.

  • I had a long exchange with you when you were in Windsor. You proved that you are incapable of reasoning about the Bible — unable to interpret it.

  • The third statement is not contradictory to the other two, as the two sets of comments are addressing very different realms.

    What’s interesting here is that the quoted comments were only made as part of a discussion on a private, institutional listserv, which means we are colleagues at the same institution, and you have lifted these comments out of context in order to smear one of your own colleagues.

  • They cannot have me. If you read my essay, you will find that it defends Christian marriage and sexual morality implied by the Seventh Commandment. (Your sarcasm makes me pretty sure that you will not read my essay.)

  • None by blood that I know of. Only a distant relation theologically; as I said, I am a conservative evangelical Christian.

  • ALL THERE’S TO KNOW ABOUT RICHARD S. BELL:

    “Richard S. Bell … an hour ago [and] 2 years ago … I am a conservative evangelical Christian. … Conservative evangelical Christians … disagree with [Eugene] Peterson … about God’s will for same-sex marriage … Conservative Christians have misinterpreted the Bible’s instructions for sexual conduct and so have been preachers and practicers of immorality. … Conservative Christians … are wasting time, treasure, and talent in efforts to protect … unjustifiable practices of the Church … [and] displeas[ing] God, who would have his moral will understood and honored.”

  • “This woman don’t preach true christianity, she preach the world religion of the antichrist or maytreia or whatever the occultists/heathens/satanists called him, the man of perdition.”
    They should pay you for these hilarious comments.

  • “All you need to know about,” said about someone on the internet about whom you know absolutely nothing, and whose comments you take out of context from a thread about a different topic from four years ago. Clearly i’m no match for your dizzying intellect.

  • MPB (4 years ago + 11 hours ago): “If an LGBT person is sincere about responding to that grace, and if it is God’s will for that person to change, I have faith that God will make such change possible. … Three individuals claim[ing] to have changed their sexuality … don’t, in themselves, [however] prove that their claims are accurate.”

    HpO: And why not?

    MPB (4 years ago + 11 hours ago): “Three [Ex-Gay] individuals claim[ing] to have changed their sexuality … don’t, in themselves, prove that their claims are accurate. [HERE’S WHY. One, not one of these these] individuals [either fits my description of] an LGBT person [or, two] is sincere about responding to … the grace of Christ … And [thirdly] … it is[n’t] God’s will for that person to change, [and, fourthly] I have [no] faith that God will make such change possible.”

  • MPB (4 years ago + 11 hours ago): “If an LGBT person is sincere about responding to that grace, and if it is God’s will for that person to change, I have faith that God will make such change possible. … Three individuals claim[ing] to have changed their sexuality … don’t, in themselves, [however] prove that their claims are accurate.”

    HpO: And why not?

    MPB (4 years ago + 11 hours ago): “Three [Ex-Gay] individuals claim[ing] to have changed their sexuality … don’t, in themselves, prove that their claims are accurate. [HERE’S WHY. First of all, not one of these these] individuals [either fits my description of] an LGBT person [or, second] is sincere about responding to … the grace of Christ … And [thirdly] … it is[n’t] God’s will for that person to change, [and, fourthly] I have [no] faith that God will make such change possible.”

  • “I do not believe that any so called Christian has the right to condemn other Christians for not believing what they believe.”

    Not only do Christians have such a right, it is a mandate: Galatians 1:8, Matthew 18:17.

  • No. You’re just following an ancient paranoid superstitious mythology that cannot grasp facts, science and reality.

  • Do you trust your own physicians (who likely belong to some of these organizations) when taking prescribed medications?

  • We disagree.

    Today is the first day of Great Lent. After responding to the posts already in my box, I will be abstaining from comment posting for the remainder of Lent and Holy Week (in addition to the usual abstaining from meat and sex, of course).

    Au revoir.

  • After numerous negative family experiences, I have learned to be extremely sceptical of all physicians, and follow their advice and medications only after exercising due diligence. They have been very wrong far too often.

    And there is certainly no reason to accord them any sort of authority on the topics of sexual morality and sin.

  • The medical community is not claiming “any sort of authority on the topics of sexual morality and sin.” One’s subjective views on those things have no bearing on objective medical findings.

  • There line of discussion with JD here has been whether or not homosexual acts are sinful.

    JD brought up medical associations declaring homosexuality “normal”.

    It is invalid to say that because some doctors declare it “normal”, it is therefore not sinful. It simply means that it is commonly observed, and not something they deem as requiring medical treatment. Many sins fall into that category.

  • And don’t forget that you can’t eat black pudding either? That you cannot distinguish between human wisdom and the wisdom of God is clear.

  • That Sandi Lukins is not a good ambassador for Christ is one thing. To say that the sky fairy has been silent for 2000+ years is quite another. Where have you been?

  • I always said you’d end up in “ELL” Sandi. Just like the elder son, you choose darkness and spite.

  • Jesus tells you to forgive your brother or sister 70 x 7 times, you clearly do not see the consequences of that. The command was not to condemn the sin or the sinner. But you prefer to honour the vengeance of Lamech, rather than the compassion of Christ! So be it! As you judge, you will be judged!

  • Now, I’ve told you before, that Jesus doesn’t say that once – any where. Scripture reference please?

  • Jesus calls us to repent of our sins, including sexual ones such as homosexuality.

    You should be Christ-like and follow His example in this.

    Today is the first day of Great Lent, and I will be abstaining from replying to posts – along with the usual things, of course,such as meat, sex, etc. – so this will be my last post to you for now.

    Have a good and profitable Lent!

  • No scripture reference? No change there then? I have acknowledged Jesus as the revelation of God, so many times, yet you haven’t seen one of them? Oh dear! But don’t worry, God knows and it is God who matters.

  • Yet Christ taught that it is a sin that will place one in Hell for eternity – should they not renounce their sin and follow Him

  • Today is the first day of Lent? I started last Wednesday. I guess you mean ‘your lent is great’? Don’t bother, to respond. I repent every day and understand the actual meaning of ‘metanoia’, both as philosophy and praxis. Those saints who have gone to extremes to ‘prove’ their faith, have usually come unstuck in the end. You need only trust Jesus – it is finished! It is pure grace and mercy. You can’t earn it by putting on a ‘Lenten performance’.

    I note you have not responded to the actual content of my post however?

  • Who is going to hell?

    “People like you!”

    And who is going to heaven?

    “People like me!!”

    Y’all need to work on your threats…

  • Who says that*you* speak for ALL Christians?!?

    You’re the bigot, thinking that only *you* determine what God says!

  • Well, Sandi in EL “got” it – I guess I’m not surprised that you didn’t.
    Work on it a while – it’ll come to you.
    Here’s a hint: worry about being judged by others is often a displaced worry about how one would judge oneself – if one did it “fairly” and according to actual “principles.”

  • Sandi, and you apparently, think that you determine someone’s relationship with Christ — you do not. That distinction belongs to Christ alone. Not you, not me, not any human being.

  • You’re missing the point – again.

    It’s BECAUSE the decision is Christ’s (and NOT mine or yours) that I’ve called on you to evaluate your beliefs in light of His expectations.

    You obviously don’t want to do that.. Either you’re worried about the outcome if you do, and prefer not to think about it, or you think you’ve already done it and feel no need to re-evaluate anything. Whatever. That’s for you to sort out. From my standpoint, it’s a choice between conscious ignorance and unconscious arrogance. Flip a coin, for all I care. The one “judgment” I did make is that you’re not the self-reflective type – and you keep confirming that observation.

    But in any case, my comment was simply a reminder that there IS a judgment to be passed, by One who sets the standards for achievement respecting it. Raising that issue (and suggesting you weigh it) is not “passing judgment” on anyone, and you can’t get “pharisaism” out of it, no matter how hard you try, or how much you want it to be true. Accurate names for that kind of rhetorical tactic are “avoidance” and “deflection.”

  • And again, you obviously are back to presuming that I’ve never examined my life. Have you? Of course you have and so have I.

    I’ve been a Christian all my life, raised by faithful parents who deeply loved God and taught us to do so as well. I committed myself to Christ and when I came out, Jesus did not reject me, even though misguided and fearful fellow Christians, like you and Sandi, did.

    God was delighted to make people in a variety of ways and all of them equally made in His Image.

    We’re done for today, so I’ll sign off and wish you peace.

  • I was created for more than just procreation. And there no reason a woman can’t be a priest/pastor or a godly leader in the church.

  • Go chase your imaginary Pharisees — the ones who reject YOU because of what and how you believe.
    That should keep you busy for a while.
    In the meantime, none that is happening around here.

  • You have the same problem here, as you had on Premier. You appear incapable of reading posts in English?

    But don’t worry, I forgive you. It is not your fault, everyone falls short somewhere. And your failing is quite a common one.

  • Why do you keep deflecting?

    Theological disagreement is not “anger,” and your attempt to cast it as due to a “bad attitude” is all too typical of Progressive rhetoric on general: “You’re wrong because you’re a bad person – a fact that I can recognize because I’m a good one.”

    Yawn.

  • God my Father is the God and Father of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Together with His own beloved Son, Jesus Christ, at His right hand and on His throne next to His, God is the Alpha and Omega who, with the Lamb of God, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, is reigning over His Kingdom on earth and in heaven, and, for eternity, in the New Heaven and Earth. And this is all because of the ransoming Fatherly love of God through the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of His own beloved Son, Jesus, the Messiah of Israel and the savior of the rest of the world.

  • You called me a Pharisee. Christ’s attitude toward the Pharisees He dealt with was inescapably “judgmental,” and His judgment was clearly on their spiritual condition, not just on its behavioral symptoms. Just to remind you, His assessment was that the Pharisees had become inwardly rotten — a perversion of God’s original mandate — an offense they compounded by claiming to be pure (“whitewashed tombs,” and all that). I assumed (and still do) that you intended to convey all the weight of Christ’s judgment as your own in choosing that term to apply.

  • YA AIN’T SEEN NOTHIN’ YET !!!

    For “then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickl* in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, ‘Put in your s*ckle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.’ Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickl* over the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp s*ckle. Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickl*, saying, ‘Put in your sharp s*ckle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.’ So the angel swung his sickl* to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blo*d came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.”

    Source: Revelation 14:14-20.

  • I’ll take that as an acknowledgement that you are indeed passing judgment on the character of those who disagree with your theology.

    Now that we have that out of the way, back to the earlier point that you’ve been avoiding: that your anxiety about being judged by others is actually a displaced anxiety about how you would judge yourself – if you did it “fairly” and according to actual “principles,” instead of according to your ideological convictions. You’ve given us a lot of intellectual thrashing around without advancing the discussion in any direction.

  • You’re quite amusing, pretending to be scold me while *you* judge me!

    Hypocrisy, thy name is Evangelical Fundamentalism.

  • Quit a bit under my head, actually. I’m trying to elevate things to an actual discussion of an actual issue; you just want to low-ball the exchange as an insult duel: personal slurs at a digital distance.

    No thanks. I have pressing duties to attend to; I painted my utility shed today, and I need to go watch it dry – just to make sure nothing goes wrong in the process, understand.

  • Actual discussion? Hardly.
    All you’ve done is repeatedly throw ad hominem insults and make broad, ridiculous presumptions.

    You have no interest in discussion.

    All you want to do harass and try to beat down anyone who disagrees with your shallow little Evangelical Fundamentalist theology.

    Well, surprise! There are millions of other Christians who do not agree with you. And I’m one of them.

    Have a good night. No longer interested.

  • “Actual discussion? Hardly.”

    Not one you’re interested in pursuing at any rate – obviously.
    But it’s no fun running circles around someone who wouldn’t recognize a circle if one was being run around them.
    So, yeah…let’s draw the curtain on this useless use of digital space.

  • Yet there is still no recognition that you opened that genie-bottle with your “Pharisee”comment, that I tried to call you on it, that you eventually acknowledged it, and yet, perversely, continue to rely on it.

  • I don’t expect you to retract anything. Ever. The only thing I expect to do is expose your intellectual fails to other readers (if there still are any).

    But I’ll retract what I said earlier – sometimes it IS fun to run circles around people who don’t get it.

  • Yes, the English language is complicated, but don’t worry, as I said, your lack of comprehension is not unusual. Both that and a simplistic black and white mind-set, is all too common this days. The problem of course is that you have no intimate knowledge of God ‘in ‘your life. Apart from the book, which you cannot read effectively. If you lived in the Spirit, you wouldn’t even need the book, which is only a secondary resource. Find a proper church where you can develop a spiritual life.

  • You sound scared, JD!!! – less than a year after confessing, “But I do have an adult intersex and trans kid … [and] want for nothing nor seek no other path. … Therefore the Divine loves [me] beyond measure.” Here’s why:

    “[An] angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to [this Divine of yours] who sat on the cloud, ‘Put in your s*ckle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.’ Then [this Divine of yours] who sat on the cloud swung His sickl* over the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he … swung his sickl* to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blo*d came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.”

  • Scared? Nah.

    YOU however is the one who sounds scared. Just look at what you have posted. That’s why you actually believe, isnt it. It’s because you don’t want your deity hating and killing you. You are secretly terrified of your deities . You only believe out of fear.

    Isnt that right, HpO?

  • It’s often not necessarily that “you don’t want your deity hating and KILLING you,” but rather that “you don’t want your deity TORTURING you.”

    Edit: as in torturing FOREVER

  • There is nothing you can correct, your ignorance is bliss and the source of your happiness. I ca only advise you to look again and find a real church, where they can love you into the truth.

  • ‘Yo, JD PETTY YETI. It’s no “secret”: in accordance with these scriptures, and for all the reasons given therein, I do live in the fear of God & Jesus:

    (1) So I’ll always be able to LISTEN to Their apostles. Acts 13:16 – “Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, ‘Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen'”.

    (2) So I’ll always be able to RECEIVE Their gospel. Acts 13:26 – “Brethren, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.”

    (3) So I’ll always BE PERFECTED in Their holiness. 2 Corinthians 7:1 – “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

    (4) So I’ll always BE FREE as Their slaves. 1 Peter 2:16-17 – “Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.”

    (5) So I’ll always BE JUDGMENT-READY for Them. Revelation 14:7 – “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

  • JD PETTY YETI: “The Divine loves [me] beyond measure.”

    HpO THE GODFEARING BELIEVER: “Beyond measure” shall precisely be “a distance of two hundred miles.”

    JD PETTY YETI: “Scared? Nah. … I do have an adult intersex and trans kid … Therefore the Divine loves [me] beyond measure.”

    JOHNNY PATMOS: “Therefore [rather, this Divine of yours] … swung His sickl* over the earth, and the earth was reaped. … Clusters from the vine of the earth [were] thrown into the great wine press of the wrath of [this Divine of yours]. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blo*d came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.”

  • HpO must have glossed over the bit he posted in I Peter 2 that says “Honor all people” 😄

  • It really is sad because it’s borne from an attitude of turn or burn. If that’s the motivation for their own conversion, then that may be the only narrative they know. I think in some instances, folks become resentful of others who seem free and do not live under the same threat they do. It portrays the gospel in a very bad light.

  • JD PETTY YETI: “The Divine loves [me from] ‘a distance of two hundred miles.'”

    HpO THE GODFEARING BELIEVER: “That’s what I’ve been telling you, Eggnogshtick. And more wine coming up.”

  • The paranoia is clinical in some. They need help but they’ll never seek it for their fear of their deity paralyzing. Its a downward spiral.

    Its all very sad.

  • She said nothing of the kind. You can’t impose your fantasy of evil intent on her statements outside the confines of your own mind and get away with it in a public discussion. Someone is sure to call you out on it. Consider yourself called out.

  • Just add “to me,” and I’ll let you get away with that otherwise preposterous overgeneralization.

  • I feel the need to clarify something. Judy Peterson said:

    I was fired because some within my church and my school were shocked that I could be so “scandalous”.

    But that was not the case. This was not about doctrine or beliefs. Not even about same sex marriage. She was fired because she violated a job protocol. There is no excuse to be upset for the consequences of breaking deliberately your job agreement; regardless of which rule was intentionally broken.

  • I feel the need to clarify something. Judy Peterson said:

    I was fired because some within my church and my school were shocked that I could be so “scandalous”.

    But that was not the case. This was not about doctrine or beliefs. Not even about same sex marriage. She was fired because she violated a job protocol. There is no excuse to be upset for the consequences of breaking deliberately your job agreement; regardless of which rule was intentionally broken.

  • I feel the need to clarify something. Judy Peterson said:

    I was fired because some within my church and my school were shocked that I could be so “scandalous”.

    But that was not the case. This was not about doctrine or beliefs. Not even about same sex marriage. She was fired because she violated a job protocol. There is no excuse to be upset for the consequences of breaking deliberately your job agreement; regardless of which rule was intentionally broken.

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