(RNS) — When John Turner’s biography of Brigham Young was published more than a decade ago, I marveled at his skill in dealing with a (very!) complex historical subject fairly. He sifted through a mountain of evidence — much of it conflicting — and assessed it in a way that was balanced but also maintained a consistent POV for the reader. The book let us know what Turner thought, after weighing all of the evidence, but without being driven by any kind of agenda.
So it’s not surprising that Turner’s done it again, only with an even more complex biographical subject: Joseph Smith Jr., the founding prophet of Mormonism. As someone who has never been LDS himself (he is Presbyterian), Turner’s perhaps freer to bracket the central question that plagues current and former Mormons — namely, was Joseph Smith a true prophet? Was he legit? — and focus on the story of his life and times. And what a story it is.
In our May 19 Zoom interview, we covered far more ground than I can include here. There’s a ton of interesting material in “Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet,” which comes out in June from Yale University Press. I’ve focused the conversation on some controversial aspects of Smith’s legacy, including the question so many are asking these days: Did he really practice plural marriage?
This interview has been edited for length and clarity. – JKR
In the book’s opener you point out that Smith was beloved by most who knew him — that he was a generous man with a great sense of humor. You also say on that same page that he had flaws, and that “I wouldn’t trust him with my money, my wife, or my daughter.”
A lot of people have created this binary choice between Joseph Smith as the true prophet of the last dispensation of the fullness of times, or a fraud and a scoundrel. I’m willing to see him as a little bit of both.
Let’s just start with the money. Joseph Smith wasn’t good with money. I don’t mean he is swindling people, because people who share his vision of a Zion community give their resources to it willingly, and they get a lot out of it. But Joseph’s terrible with money. In Kirtland, he accrues a massive amount of debt to build the temple — sometimes in his own name, sometimes with others. Then there’s the debacle of the bank failure. The net result is that he has to flee Kirtland. This leads to a fire sale of his property and church property, and it’s a complete financial disaster. He vows at the time: “I’m not going to do that again. I’m going to steer clear of debt.” But once he’s able to escape from imprisonment and legal challenges in Missouri, he basically does it again, going into a large amount of debt purchasing property in Nauvoo, and he applies for bankruptcy.
So I wouldn’t want him managing my congregation’s finances. It wouldn’t make me more inclined to give.
And as to not trusting him with your wife or daughter?
Joseph pursues plural marriage so recklessly. Regardless of whether one accepts plural marriage as a divinely instituted principle for that time and place or not, Joseph goes about it with a disregard for existing human relationships on earth. He proposes to the wives of some of his followers, including some close followers, and he proposes to Sidney Rigdon’s daughter. Even Brigham Young was worried Joseph Smith was going to take his wife.
That was an interesting story you recounted of Brigham Young having a nightmare about seeing his first wife being driven off in a carriage with Joseph Smith.
Yeah. Of course, I’m interpreting the dream. Brigham Young’s not on record as saying, “I’m worried that Joseph’s going to ask for my wife as an Abrahamic sacrifice.”
It’s not very subtle, though.
No, I don’t think it’s subtle. If I were a close associate of Joseph’s in 1842 or 1843, I really would’ve been on edge. I probably would have been thrilled at some of the other ideas and rituals that he was unveiling during those years. But I wouldn’t necessarily trust him.
Recently we’ve seen a rise in what some scholars are calling “polygamy denial,” with some Latter-day Saints now claiming Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, or at least not sexual polygamy. What do you think?
I think the evidence for Joseph’s polygamous sealings is pretty overwhelming. It’s true that a lot of that evidence is retrospective in the form of affidavits or court testimony from many decades later, but there are some persuasive pieces of evidence from the 1840s. The William Clayton journal is a very exhaustive account of Joseph’s plural marriages — his [Joseph’s] own and his promotion of the marriages of others. There’s the revelation on marriage itself. And while it’s true that you can’t necessarily trace the extant copies of those documents to 1843, the sum total of the evidence is simply overwhelming.
And there’s a lot of corroborating evidence in Joseph’s own journals and the journals of his associates. I think it boggles the mind to presume Brigham Young introduced polygamy after Joseph’s death, and then so many people conspired in such incredibly clever ways to corroborate Joseph’s polygamy.
So why you think some Latter-day Saints are so determined to absolve Joseph Smith of involvement in polygamy? Some of this has come up in my research on Mormon faith crisis, with people very much wanting to maintain Joseph Smith on a pedestal.
Joseph’s activity in terms of plural marriage is very uncomfortable material. He pursues it so assiduously — in my opinion, recklessly — in ways that were very hurtful to Emma Smith. I mean, Emma Smith clearly understands this as a moral betrayal.
You have a poignant moment in the biography where Joseph finally tells Emma about polygamy, but he spiritualizes it. She consents in a limited way and says she wants to have some control over the people he’s going to be bringing into their family. So she selects four young women who’ve already been living in their household, not knowing they are already married to her husband.
Yeah, it’s just heartbreaking. I want to say there are a lot of times at which I admire Joseph Smith. I really think for most ordinary human subjects we might write about, we’re going to come away with a mixture of admiration and repulsion. But there are several moments in Joseph Smith’s life where I do think he is just callous or cruel toward others. I certainly don’t think that’s the sum total of his character, but his treatment of Emma is really, really callous.
Even once he decides to tell Emma, he still doesn’t tell her the half of it. And of course, that just sets the stage for intense conflict with her over the next several months. What I think is remarkable is that they ultimately find a way to transcend that. We don’t know all of the details. Joseph doesn’t abandon plural marriage, but she at least puts the brakes on it to a substantial extent. And their marriage does seem more stable and harmonious over the last six to eight months of his life.
You mentioned there are things you admire about Joseph. What are some of those?
One thing that often gets lost is that Joseph had a capacity for mirth — for joy and humor and playfulness. Because scholars tend to get sucked into theological or ecclesiological debates about him, that tends to get lost. Whether it was treasure hunting or the story of the plates and some of the harrowing flights through the woods from his enemies, I think he just loved it. And he could have fun with it. His life story is so remarkable and so fun at many points, and I think scholars shouldn’t lose sight of that.
Richard Bushman had this very fair complaint that no one is taking Joseph Smith seriously outside of the Mormons. I definitely think as a non-Latter-day Saint, I want to take him seriously. I find his ideas and activities arresting and potent. But I also don’t want to strip all the fun out of his story. He was so sociable and convivial. If you showed up at his door, he’d feed you. He’d give you somewhere to sleep, he’d talk to you all night, and he’d be happy to wrestle or play some other game with you.
I also admire the creativity of his religious mind. Not a lot of people are willing to always be going in new directions, introducing new ideas and new rituals, always asking new questions about the Bible, and finding really creative answers to those questions. For me, that’s one of the really striking things about Joseph. So much of his religious leadership is steeped in the Bible and in its perplexing gaps and contradictions. He’s willing to ask questions about them, but then also, unlike almost anybody else could do, he could propose solutions.
Upcoming book events for “Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet”
June 3: Benchmark Books, Salt Lake City
June 7: Compass, Provo, Utah
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