Jimmy Carter: Jesus would approve of gay marriage

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Former President Jimmy Carter during a book signing at The Washington Post on March 26, 2014 for his new book, “A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power.” Religion News Service photo by Adelle M. Banks

Former President Jimmy Carter during a book signing at The Washington Post on March 26, 2014 for his new book, “A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power.” Religion News Service photo by Adelle M. Banks

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"I think Jesus would encourage any love affair if it was honest and sincere and was not damaging to anyone else," the former president said.

  • Tieta

    Mr. Carter needs to read a/the Bible cause 1 Corinthians 5,6 and 7 plus in
    Romans 1:18-32 say all sin is wrong! Luke 13 is perfect for Mr. Carter and
    many today who think their sin is not that bad. All sin is bad/wrong and we
    all need to/must Repent! Matthew 7:13-23 is good for Mr. Carter as well.
    Bible says Repent and blieve the Gospel to be saved! We all must Repent!

  • Fran

    That’s very interesting, because Jesus, the son of God, confirmed (Matthew 19:4-6) what his Father, God, said when instituting marriage with our first parents, Adam and Eve. That union was between a man and a woman:

    “That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh”(Genesis 2:24).

    Mr. Carter is entitled to his own opinion, just as the rest of us are; but God’s opinion and his guidelines for us are more important and the best to rely on.

  • Jack

    Carter is hardly the only evangelical to endorse gay marriage (as this web site ceaselessly reminds us), but somehow I doubt that Gushee and the others would agree with Carter’s rather broad rationale:

    “I think Jesus would encourage any love affair if it was honest and sincere and was not damaging to anyone else, and I don’t see that gay marriage damages anyone else.”

    It’s the first part of that sentence that puts Carter in his own little universe, apart even from most pro-gay churches. It’s a gap that you can drive a Mack truck through.

    While Carter is advocating a consistent and rationally defensible ethic of sexual behavior, to call it “Christian” even from a pro-gay perspective is really stretching it.

  • How wonderful! He is still a brave man at 90. He’s able to live and learn along the way. Many folks decline to learn anything new about life, but former Pres Jimmy Carter astounds me. Much to read out there on how the Bible says nothing about modern same-sex marriage, and how the Bible shouldn’t be used to condemn gay people. Jack Rogers “Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality” is a good place to start if you really want to know why Carter and the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, many Baptist denominations, the United Church of Canada, UU, and other congregations find Christianity compatible with being LGBT. It’s easy to post negative things without bothering to read both sides. There is a fear of what that new knowledge might spark. Do not be afraid. You only have to lose your fear. Keep Speaking, Mr. Carter. God sure is.

  • Tieta

    Jerome-Bible says in 1 Corinthians 7 marriage is for one man and one woman
    so you need to get your facts straight. 1 Corinthians 6:9-12/Romans 1:18-32
    also says homosexuality is wrong! All sin is wrong so read Luke 13/the Bible.

  • Jack

    Jerome, how do you know when God is or isn’t speaking?

    And when God speaks, does He ever disagree with you?

  • JR

    It’s nice to hear Carter saying Jesus would approve of gay marriage. It’s proof that the Protestant Reformation was a total failure in “reforming” what Luther thought was a corrupt Church.
    No matter how hard anyone tries, how much they cite singular Scriptural quotes, they will never, ever find proof of God consenting to gay marriage, gay acts, or gay ideology. It just is not there. Mr.Carter was not only a lousy President, but is now a heretical Christian. Even Luther would be spinning with rage at this statement.

  • JR

    Try reading “Making Gay Okay” if you want truth.

  • Scott Shaver

    Jack, you think Carter is demonstrating a “consistent” and “rationally” defensible eithic of sexual behavior based on what he THINKS Jesus would do?

    What a crapshoot “consistent” and “rational” ethics”must be in reality!

    Let 50% of the population opt for gay marriage, tally the results within a decade and then get back to me on whether or not “anyone is damaged”.

    Lots of little parts make a big whole.

  • Scott Shaver

    Perhaps one of the greatest marks of wisdom coming with age is that some “new” things aren’t worth learning.

  • Scott Shaver

    Rather than heretic, could he not be a compassionate Christian erring on the side of love for a very vocal minority here in the U.S.?

  • RichardM

    Jimmy Carter’s about as low as you get in American politics.

  • JR

    Absolutely not! For him to give false witness to God’s truth there is the grave danger of others accepting his view as God’s view. This is scandal to put words in the mouth of Christ that are not remotely Divine Wisdom.
    Let him say he disagrees with God and keep the onus of error on himself.

  • Jack

    No, Scott, you misread my post. I said that while the view he expressed was consistent and rationally defensible, it wasn’t a Christian view by any stretch of the imagination, even if by “Christian,” we were to include a pro-gay-marriage view. It was far away from anything that could conceivably be called “Christian,” even by liberal Christian churches.

  • Jack

    Jimmy Carter has become something of a space cadet, as evidenced by his attributing to Jesus something that no Christian church in the world would agree with, including those that advocate gay marriage. The first part of his sentence has Jesus endorsing arrangements that go far beyond gay marriage.

  • Ted

    Pharisees need to quit proof-texting to blame their bigotries on God.

  • Ted

    Unlike many who post here, Mr. Carter is a Christian – not a proof-texting Pharisee – and understands that Jesus said “Love God”, “Love your neighbor”, and “Judge not”.

  • Tieta

    Ted- Read 1 Corinthians 5 and John 7:24 plus Matthew 7:13-23 as well.

  • Ted

    I will never understand how all you proof-texting Pharisees justify condemning homosexuals – who want nothing more than a normal life and the same rights and resposibilities you take for granted – based on a few poorly translated passages, while ignoring (just for example) that the Bible also says raping girls is just fine as long as you pay off their Dad (Deuteronomy 22:28-29), or you shave the girl’s head and leave her alone for a month before you do it (Deuteronomy 21:10-14).

  • Ted

    Yes, God does love and approve of homosexuals and our lives, as a majority of Christians know. It’s just that not everyone has “ears to hear” the truth.

    What you do on your private property is your business. What happens on public property is determined by the Constitution and public law.

  • Tieta

    Ted-Read 1 Corinthians 5 and John 7:24 plus read 1 Corinthians 6:9-12
    1 Corinthians 7..Romans 1:18-32..Luke 13 also read in Matthew 7:13-23.

  • Ted

    Actually, many Christian churches are already on the record approving exactly what Mr. Carter said.

    Please do not pretend to speak for all Christians. And, please do not pretend to decide who is a “true” Christian. God is the judge, not you.

  • Shawnie5

    It would be scary to be 90 years old, nearing the end of the line, and encouraging Christ’s little ones to fall into sin. Millstones, you know.

  • Tieta

    Ted-The Bible is clear the drunkards,gossips,idolaters,greedy/coveters
    and the sexually immoral in any form, mean people who get drunk and
    sleep around,people who gamble and don’t bridle their sharp tongues
    all go to hell so we all need to Repent! Bible is very clear who goes to
    heaven and it is only people who Repent/trust in Jesus as their Lord!
    Bible says Repent and believe Gospel to be saved! We must Repent!

  • Shawnie5

    Better to err on the side of love for God and His creative purposes, than for love of any “minority” and their earthly approval. Love for God will always lead ultimately to doing right by one’s neighbor, even if the neighbor hates you for it (Jesus warned it would often be so).

  • Shawnie5

    “And, please do not pretend to decide who is a “true” Christian. God is the judge, not you.”

    ROFL! Um, Ted, didn’t you just say, “Unlike many who post here, Mr. Carter is a Christian” ???

    I may have to make a sock puppet for Ted to keep Larry’s company. 😀

  • Tieta

    Ted-Bible is clear what you and many others have done is
    create/make a false god/idol to suit yourself which is called
    idolatry and all idolaters go to hell. Read the whole Bible.

  • Kar La

    I’m Kar La Ro Na CC32 Michelle Tieta the RepentBot and today my name to bother you with is Tieta. I must spam you daily with my Repent! spam or I will implode.
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Or just don’t bother. It makes no difference. (with apologies to Monty Python)

  • Pascal’s Wager

    That’s Pascal’s Wager you dolt!

  • Kar L:a

    I’m Kar La Ro Na CC32 Michelle Tieta the RepentBot and today my name to bother you with is Tieta. I must spam you daily with my Repent! spam or I will implode.
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Or just don’t bother. It makes no difference. (with apologies to Monty Python)

  • Kar L:a

    I’m Kar La Ro Na CC32 Michelle Tieta the RepentBot and today my name to bother you with is Tieta. I must spam you daily with my Repent! spam or I will implode.
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Or just don’t bother. It makes no difference. (with apologies to Monty Python)

  • Morgan

    RichardM, Jimmy got far more votes than you did, so speaking of low, you seem to spend more time going down than Monica L did. Get your mouth open and get back to work.

  • JR

    And did God save this new revelation for the 21st century? Whom did He relay this to, I’m just curious, cause there is no hint of something new coming out of heaven in any religious writings of the past. Jesus said, also, that revelation was complete with Him. So, this new prophet? Who is it? Is he/she/Caitlyn gay? Please reveal this find to us.

  • Jack

    Ted, your post reveals a double blunder.

    First, honesty requires that we confront what the Bible says about homosexuality and then deal with it as mature human beings. Simply put, the Bible condemns it.

    And so, honesty requires one of two things. Either we reject the Bible as our authority or we accept it but try as humane people to reconcile what it says and what most of us view as the moral imperative of treating gay people with complete dignity and respect. There are ways to do that with integrity.

    But to deny what the Bible says is rank dishonesty. Part of me wishes I could, but I’d rather be honest and wrestle with the issue than whitewash it just to feel good.

    Besides the honesty issue, you have a potential anti-Semitism issue regarding Pharisees. Most Pharisees were dedicated teachers of the Torah. Jesus condemned some of them, but in an ironic way. He said they sat in the seat of Moses….a positive…and Paul called himself a Pharisee. So be…

  • Jack

    Ted, I see you are as careless in reading comprehension as you are in flinging the word, “Pharisee” at anyone who disagrees with you. As I told you about misuse of the word, “Pharisee,” it comes thisclose to anti-Semitism, at least the traditional theological kind. So kindly quit misusing the word.

    And as for my point about Carter, again, if you bothered to read the first part of his sentence, he is going far beyond even endorsing gay marriage, so far, in fact, that he is in his own moral orbit, beyond even where liberal churches will go. Just read those first few words of his and see for yourself.

    If you’re not adept at reading, find someone else to help you. I can’t make it simpler.

  • Jack

    No it isn’t.

    Pascal’s Wager, learn Pascal’s Wager or don’t use the term.

  • Jack

    Notice, Shawnie, that Ted completely misunderstood the point….which is that Jimmy Carter’s statement manages to go far beyond even support for gay marriage. In his mind, such that it is, Jesus is okay with virtually any behavior whatsoever. It is so beyond anything remotely Christian, even the most liberal Christian churches who approve of gay marriage would shrink back from his rationale.

  • Jack

    JR, the sorry spectacle of people rejecting evangelicalism while calling themselves evangelical admittedly makes me long for some sort of magisterium to sort it out. But you guys have your own problems which dwarf that problem.
    And with all due respect, comparing your current leader to the last two is like comparing Daffy Duck to Albert Einstein.

    The best solution is CS Lewis’ notion of mere Christianity, as summarized in his intro to his book with that name.

  • Shawnie5

    It has nothing to do with Pascal’s Wager. It’s putting the two greatest commandments into the proper order.

  • Shawnie5

    There is so much confusion about Pharisees, and Ted’s misunderstanding is particularly ironic. If we take a look at some of Jesus’ specific problems with the ones with whom He came in contact, we see some interesting things:
    1. They liked to create ways around God’s laws in order to nullify them and replace them with their own ideas,
    2. They denied their own sin,
    3. They liked to tell people not to do stuff that they did themselves (see above), and
    4. They cared more for the opinion of men than God.

    Now who does THAT look like? Hmmm…

  • Jack

    Very interesting, Shawnie. That reminds me of a book written by a modern Talmudic scholar which makes precisely the points you’re making…..he said that the particular Pharisees whom Jesus was criticizing were actually engaged in watering down the Torah, whereas Jesus was tightening it up.

    I forgot his name…..the book was written in 2008, I think.

  • Pascal’s Wager

    Nope. Shawnie5 the dolt’s first phrase is the standard Pascal’s Wager gamble. “Better to… than…”. Shawnie5 is pretty fscking stupid and so are you.

  • Shawnie5

    If you’re a troll trying to make atheists look bad, don’t bother…they do a fine job of that themselves. Stick to serious discussion.

  • Be Brave

    Ted,

    That sooooooo many of you anti-Christ’s, no, no, ALL of you anti-Christ’s promote homosexuality, there is no way that Carter can escape yoking himself to unbelievers and joining in with their abominations. Oops, love. I keep forgetting political correctness is Carter’s real faith-based belief system.

  • Be Brave

    Jerome,

    You mean “lose your faith.”

    Gay marriage is connected to a falling away from the faith. Not an embracing of it. Carter is just going the way of all liberals. Sooner or later false teaching and heresy via “political correctness” and the need to stay in political power takes control of the leftist mind.

  • Shawnie5

    Of course they HAD to water it down a great deal in order to maintain such cozy relationships with the amoral Roman overlords — and that was the point of their “oral tradition” after all, to “interpret” the Law in such a way as to accommodate the times and the culture, even to the point of nullifying the written Torah given by God. Hence Jesus’ words about abandoning the Law of God for man-made teachings.

    Truly everything old is new again.

  • Be Brave

    Let’s see, let’s see, Jesus or Jimmy? Jesus or Jimmy?

    Nah, I’m going with Jesus.

    Marriage is immutably man and woman/husband and wife.

    Now, if there is any scripture that supports Mr. Carter, ahhh never mind. There isn’t. Why waste time on idiocy and heresy.

  • “I believe Jesus would approve gay marriage,” he said. “That’s just my own personal opinion.”

    Silly nonsense.
    Let’s grow up, shall we?
    Let’s admit we don’t like the idea of a bigoted God so we invented a different one.

    God doesn’t exist without us – We are the ones who decide what god is and isn’t all by ourselves!

  • Fran

    Ted,

    Yes, Jesus said to love God with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves (Mark 12:28-31).

    However, in addition to teaching his disciples about love, he also taught them what to hate. It was said about Jesus: “You loved righteousness and you hated wickedness” (Hebrews 1:9; Psalm 45:7). This shows that we must develop, not only a love of righteousness, but also a hatred of sin. In other words, love the sinner but hate the sin.

  • Be Brave

    Jack,

    A N Y T H I N G not only CAN be called “Christian” in liberal Churches, it is.

    If same gender “marriage” and homosexual behavior can be condoned in liberal religious organizations, or by an individual that label themselves Christian. . . than the anything goes spirit of the age has already taken captive truth and chained it to a wall in a dungeon of the prison called Political Correctness. And Jimmy Carter is lobbying to be its Warden.

  • Be Brave

    Jerome:

    “. . . if you really want to know why Carter and the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, many Baptist denominations, the United Church of Canada, UU, and other congregations find Christianity compatible with being LGBT”

    It’s called money and power. And the fear of losing it.

    I believe the term is “selling out.” Jesus was very familiar with those kinds of “followers.” There’s a reason why certain kinds of “followers” need to replace the truth with a lie. Keeping ones mortgage payment and authority secure is a powerful motivator to inventing a new Jesus and a different Gospel.

    Maybe we should put a J along with the LGBT and “Q” letter salad. A “J” that stands for Judas.

    Hey, Jimmy starts with a J too.

    How prophetic.

  • Doc Anthony

    Jesus also said Matt. 19:4-6, right? You agree?

    So why do you — and equally important, why does Mr. Carter — say that Jesus would approve of Gay Marriage? Do you not agree with what Jesus said?

  • Doc Anthony

    I like the part where Carter said, “…not damaging to anybody else.”

    Apparently Carter is perfectly comfortable with two God-loved, God-cared people placing themselves in DIRECT DANGER of 1 Cor. 6:9-10.

    As long as they don’t damage anybody else of course. (But won’t their anti-God example influence other people struggling with the same temptation??)

    That’s why Liberal Christianity is such a mess these days. I did support Carter back in 1976. Just sorry to see him mess up so badly these days.

  • Dominic

    Jimmy Carter saying this removes himself from Christian membership. It’s like saying, in some cases, Jesus would approve of adultery, prostitution, or theft.

  • Larry

    Christian views of ethics are not rational and consistent. Can’t argue with that.

    Its how one can claim malice is a form of abiding by the idea of “love thy neighbor”. Its how one can claim any immoral act is excusable if one claims to be doing it on God’s behalf.

    Christian “morality” for most people is simply looking at the Bible for excuses to behave badly. Carter’s writings as of late understand that.

    But he is yoked far too much by his background as a born again Christian to make a clean break from that crowd. He is still expecting the “better angels” of their nature to come through, despite all evidence to the contrary Treating them with an undeserved level of deference and respect considering their actions. Evangelical Christianity has little use for someone like Carter anymore.

  • Larry

    Jack, you and every other reactionary Christian proof-text for whatever will excuse your behavior. Its how people can equate treating strangers badly, temple rites involving slaves, and sketchy translations of largely ignored rules of limited application with consensual adult relations.

    The Bible does not mention homosexuality as we know it today. Instead people cobble together a hodge-podge of unrelated writings to excuse treating gays badly. Imagine if they treated more explicit commands of Jesus concerning charity and personal possessions as seriously! It would make Marx blush.

    “But to deny what the Bible says is rank dishonesty. ”

    To claim what the Bible says with clarity is rank dishonesty and egotism. The Fundamentalist narcissism that they are the only ones who really “get” what the scripture says.

  • Larry

    So how are you harmed by gay marriage?

    Oh no, I have lost the social sanction for treating gays badly in public!

    I am so damaged by that!

  • Larry

    Better to extol malice and treating people like crap than engage in any good faith understanding of “love thy neighbor”.

    Claiming that treating others with malice is love of God is a joke. Any pretension you are trying to “do right” by people by openly attacking them is laughable. Like an abuser claiming he is beating a person “for their own good”.

    What a load of crap.

  • Larry

    Christian membership will be poorer in the end. But it is far more honest for Carter. He obviously is at odds with the malice, venality, and egotism which typifies Evangelical Christianity today. Carter has a morality, compassion and clarity of mind which doesn’t mesh well with them. Secular Humanism is a far better fit. By all means Christians, reject Carter.

  • Be Brave

    @Scott Shaver,

    “a very vocal minority?” The LGBT movement is the dominant anti-Christian agenda in the western world. Do you think Humanists, Atheists and other anti-Christians (liberals, Progressives, Democrats et al) charge Christians with homophobia and bigotry and hate because they secretly desire to become Christians? Carter is yoking himself to a movement and its peoples that absolutely perverts Jesus into a confused bigot or a liar, or too stupid to realize that the future would some day reinvent His Gospel by pop fad and mob rule?

    Once you see people like Larry praising Carter, you know Carter is renouncing Christ.

    C’mon man.

  • Shawnie5

    Finally, Larry, you’re getting somewhere!

    Now, what is the nature of your case that the Bible “doesn’t speak of homosexuality as we know it today?” Where do we find the qualifiers for the biblical language of not lying with a man “as one would lie with a woman?”

  • Larry

    “1. They liked to create ways around God’s laws in order to nullify them and replace them with their own ideas,”

    Like looking for workarounds and excuses for avoiding “love thy neighbor”. Even going so far as pretending treating people with malice, attacking their liberties and denying them basic human dignity is somehow concern for their immortal souls. Like burning a witch to prevent their souls from eternal damnation.

    “2. They denied their own sin”
    But they claim to have authority to judge the sins of others and ignore their own sins accordingly.

    “3. They liked to tell people not to do stuff that they did themselves (see above), and”
    They like to pretend to have moral authority while they lie, steal, and try to harm others. All the while claiming God excuses them.

    “4. They cared more for the opinion of men than God.”
    They think their opinion is God’s himself.

    Yep Shawnie, Jesus had problems with people like yourself. Thank you for pointing that out.

  • Jack

    Be Brave, I agree generally, but even liberal churches have some obvious boundaries…..for example, while supporting gay marriage, they will quickly add that they support faithfulness within any marriage covenant, straight or gay.

    Jimmy Carter’s philosophy, which he attributes to Jesus in typical Carter-like fashion, says that’s all out the window. Carter’s views would be unacceptable even in liberal churches, at least in terms of what they officially preach. He’s basically saying you can sleep with anything that moves so long as no party is harmed.

  • Jack

    I don’t pretend to know what motivates Jimmy Carter on anything, except a bitterness towards the American people for not re-electing him. How that translates into these seemingly unrelated issues is anybody’s guess. I have my ideas, but there’s no real way to know.

  • Jack

    Larry, keep your day job….while some people have converted psychobabble like yours into cold cash, I somehow doubt you’re one of them.

    Rather than dabble in such silliness, including amateurish attempts to explain why people dare to disagree with you (hint: maybe it’s because you’re wrong and they’re right) you should stick to the issues and try to make your case, difficult though that may be.

  • Shawnie5

    Larry, no one has to “work around” anything to find the biblical message about the sinfulness of homosexuality. However inconvenient it may be, it is right there — you have to ‘weaselword,” as you put it, in order to explain it away — in true Pharisaical tradition. And Jesus expressly confirmed that sexual immorality makes us unclean. As well might you say He was being “malicious” toward thieves, or adulterers, or idolaters, or any other kind of behavior He disapproved. His whole point in coming was not to make us comfortable in our own mess but to free us from the guilt of it and give us an opportunity to live in His holiness, and we can only receive this if we realize where we’ve missed the mark.

    None of us ignores our own sin — if we did, we would never have come to Christ, of course. But for us it’s something to struggle against daily, not something to celebrate and ask everyone to pat our heads for.

  • Dominic

    Again, at 94 years old, Carter’s mind is pretty fried by now. Most likely he as forgotten he ever said this.

  • Jack

    Ironic how a poster who calls himself Pascal’s Wager is blissfully ignorant of what Pascal’s Wager says.

    This is what dunce caps were made for….

  • Jack

    I think Larry thinks he’s being clever, but comes off more like an adolescent thinking he’s putting it over on the adults, even though he gets caught at it time and again.

    Like some adolescents, Larry learns slowly.

  • Ted

    LOL, Jesus never taught hate. Stop making things up to salve your guilt over knowing hatred is wrong, no matter how good it feels.

  • Jack

    Well a broken clock is right at least twice a day and Max is actually correct here about Jimmy Carter.

    Carter should admit he’s invented a different god — one made in his own image, of course — and be done with it.

  • Jack

    Jimmy Carter was always a bit of an odd duck, but he really got crazy after the American people rejected him in 1980.

    The other politician who went off his rocker after an election loss was Al Gore.

    But at least Al Gore had an excuse — it’s pretty tough to accept an electoral defeat when you won the popular vote, albeit barely.

    In Jimmy’s case, he got clocked on both scores.

  • Ted

    Jesus spoke Aramaic. The Aramaic word which is translated in Greek as ‘eunuch’ in Matthew 19:12 actually means ‘trusted one’, and refers to those males trusted not to rape the women (as straight men so often do).

    Who can be trusted not to rape women ‘from birth’? Homosexuals.

    Of course, your anti-gay bigotry and hatred will keep you from seeing this, but Christians who actually practice Christ’s injunctions to “Love God”, “Love your neighbor”, and “Judge not” will see the truth in it.

  • Ted

    It’s funny watching Pharisaic “christians” condemn the founder of Habitat for Humanity for not being Chrisitan enough for them.

  • Tieta

    Dominic- Amen/well said! All sin is wrong as it says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-12
    where it lists getting drunk,coveting,gossip right with homosexuals so those
    sins are all wrong yet many in church still get drunk or gossip like it is not a
    big deal but 1 Corinthians 5 and 6 say those sins are all wrong! God bless.

  • Ted

    It’s true, Jack. Your bad English translations of the Bible condemn homosexuality (yet condone rape, slavery, and polygamy … go figure). But, God gave us the intelligence to seek truth, rather than wallow in ignorance simply because it suits our human bigotries.

    Fundamentalist literalism such as yours is nothing more than a desperate effort to maintain a faith you do not actuallly have.

  • Shawnie5

    OK, Ted, but if Jesus meant homosexuals when he spoke of eunuchs, then homosexuals are among those He said were unfitted for marriage — along with actual physical eunuchs and those solely devoted to God’s service.

  • Ted

    Matthew 19:12. The Aramaic word which is translated into Greek as a word which is then translated into English as “eunuch”, actually means “trusted one”. The ones Jesus speaks of in this passage are those trusted not to rape women (the way so many straight boy/men do).

    Who can be trusted from birth not to rape women? Homosexuals.

    Let those who have ears to hear, hear. And let those whose hearts are dark with bigotry and hate, go on hating. You’ve had your reward.

  • Shawnie5

    Pharisees gave vast sums to charity, too.

  • Larry

    I know I am being clever. Its amazing what kind of elaborate rhetorical constructs Conservative Christians have to put up in order to justify being so anti-social, uncharitable, and hypocritical.

    Shawnie, Christians only follow the Torah’s various rules when it suits their purposes. Cafeteria style old testament citiation at its most obvious. When in doubt, claim Jesus absolved them of a given inconvenient responsibility under the Torah.

    Your whole spiel is about making a pretense of following the letter of scriptural rules (as you interpret them) but missing the clear spirit of its rules. Putting malicious in quotes does not change what the behavior you extol is. You seek to treat a group of people like crap because you think the Bible gives you an excuse to do so. Nothing but excuses.

    Equating homosexuality with theft and murder means your view of sin is reductive, and lacks reason. Like claiming swearing is on par with mass murder.

  • Shawnie5

    C’mon, Ted, explain the “bad translation.” Make your case.

  • Ted

    LOL. You are, indeed, a Pharisee as Jesus taught the meanning of this term in the Gospel, Jack. And, as such, you are far too blind to see it.

    Love God. Love your neighbor. Judge not.

    It’s that simple, for those who have ears to hear. The rest of you Bible-worshippers can go on with your idolatrous proof-texting, in hope of securing a faith you do not actually have.

  • Larry

    You have a lot of other stuff including prohibitions on certain acts, citations concerning temple rites, prostitution, slaves, a story about treating strangers badly, but not a damn thing relating to what I am talking about.

    More importantly, not a single damn thing you and your buddies talk about is even close to the spirit and intention of love of thy neighbor. Simply proof-texting for excuses to act badly. Religion as sociopathy.

  • Shawnie5

    Larry, if you’re talking about the much-cited shrimp and mixed fibers, like most scriptural illiterates stuck at Christianity Unit 1 Chapter 1…show me where the God gave Gentiles dietary restrictions, and I’ll show you where God held Gentiles accountable for sexual immorality.

    “Equating homosexuality with theft and murder means your view of sin is reductive, and lacks reason.”

    I’m afraid it was Jesus who did that in Matthew 15. Of course many atheists feel Jesus lacks reason — but if that’s the case, why are you on a thread whose topic is Christian perspective on homosexuality?

  • Shawnie5

    “You have a lot of other stuff including prohibitions on certain acts, citations concerning temple rites, prostitution, slaves, a story about treating strangers badly, but not a damn thing relating to what I am talking about.”f

    What does this mish-mash even mean, Larry?

    Come on, make your case. What precisely is your evidence that “lying with a man as one lies with a woman” doesn’t mean, well, “lying with a man as one lies with a woman?”

  • Jack

    Ted, your post about being judgmental is itself judgmental…..the point being that making judgments is pretty much unavoidable in life. You make them daily, as does everyone else. Calling people judgmental for having a set of values you can’t abide is a lazy way of avoiding actual dialogue and debate about those values.

  • Jack

    Ted, the word, “Christian” has objective doctrinal meaning behind it…..in that sense it’s a neutral word that is meant neither to praise nor to condemn. It’s not a word you simply slap on someone if you think they’re a nice person or a humanitarian.

    So Jimmy Carter is associated with Habitat. Fine. That means he has some feeling for the poor. Good.

    But so does the Dalai Lama…..and so did Mahatma Gandhi.

    So did the Buddha.

    Does that mean any of them were Christians?

    Obviously not.

    Did many of these people behave better than many Christians? Absolutely.

    But the word, “Christian”, again, is a neutral one that simply connotes belief in a certain set of doctrines and teachings. And based on any historical definition of that word, what Jimmy Carter is saying diverges from that definition.

    Words have meaning, Ted. If we keep changing the meaning, communication between people becomes impossible. Without a common understanding, it all…

  • Jack

    Ted, what do you mean about “bad translations of the Bible?” How about giving us examples of bad translations and alternative examples of better ones? I’m waiting.

    But in addition to translations, the Bible is not some object floating in space. It is largely the product of the Jewish people. If you are correct about it being mistranslated, you need to provide evidence that in ancient times, when its books were first written and circulated, Jews took a different view of homosexuality than so-called fundamentalists have through the ages. But if you look at Jewish history, you find no such distinctions. While certain strands of Christendom obsessed against homosexuality because of their obsession against the so-called “sins of the flesh,” there was otherwise no daylight between them and what Jews taught in ancient times based on their own Bible.

    The path to humane treatment of every person has to start with honesty. Whitewashing will do us no good.

  • Ted

    I doubt you’re capable of the civility for such a conversation, but I would agree that relationships not intended for procreation (regardless of the gender of those involved) are not the same as those intended for procreation. I would agree that different ways of blessing the love in these relationships would be appropriate. I certainly agree that procreation-focused relationships are traditionally called “marriage”.

    Unfortunately, our legal system does not historically make distinctions based on willingness or ability to procreate. And, the legal system – as it is – has now been extended to make the socially stabilizing legal sanction – known in the laws as “marriage” – available to all relationships, regardless of willingness or ability to procreate.

    FWIW, I’ve advocated “civil unions for all” for years, and would support changing wording in civil laws from “marriage” to “civil union”. I have no problem with leaving “marriage” to the churches, to do with as they…

  • frank

    A personal opinion not rooted in Christianity. So sad Jimmy.

  • frank

    Hate is condoning sin.

  • frank

    Your ignorance is embarrassing.

  • Larry

    Determining which sections of Leviticus that Christians will accept is always situational, inconsistent and self-serving. Every Christian will have different answers depending on what point they want to make.

    Just like conflating Matthew 15 to equate homosexuality with “evil deeds” such as murder is simply putting your own interpretation on a given phrase. About as clear as you want to make it.

    For a religion which allegedly extols compassion, humanity and moral conduct, you seem to be doing your darndest to interpret it in ways which do the very opposite of such things. Thank you for demonstrating why religion is such a poor guideline to follow for moral behavior.

  • Larry

    “except a bitterness towards the American people for not re-electing him. ”

    Where the hell do you see that?

    His work with Habitat for Humanity?
    The Carter Center?
    Helping to broker a peace to the 3rd African “World War”?

    Wild eyed goofy and overly idealistic, yes. Bitter? Doesn’t look that way.

  • Shawnie5

    “Determining which sections of Leviticus that Christians will accept is always situational, inconsistent and self-serving. “. No it isn’t. It’s spelled out quite succinctly in Acts 15. That ANY Christians have a different answer is due to the fact that many of them have stopped studying and searching the scriptures themselves and instead have allowed ignorant atheists to tell them what they should think.

    “Just like conflating Matthew 15 to equate homosexuality with “evil deeds” such as murder is simply putting your own interpretation on a given phrase.” No it isn’t. Here is the passage: “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile a man.”. Matt 15:19.

    So how was what I said different?

  • Shawnie5

    “Iwould agree that different ways of blessing the love in these relationships would be appropriate.”

    Ok, Ted, but on what kind of scriptural basis do we bless any kind of sexual relationship outside of a marriage, as scripture tells us that in MARRIAGE the bed is undefiled?

  • Jack

    Larry, the patterns of Carter’s post-presidential life show a real bitterness toward America. Even when he does good things that help individuals, he probably rationalizes it to himself by saying he’s helping people who are not part of the mainstream that rejected him so soundly in 1980. His deliberate attempts to embarrass American presidents of both parties speak volumes. His efforts to appease anti-American dictators around the world and even side with them over American administrations do so as well.

    His behavior betrays feelings of bitterness against the electorate and jealousy, envy and spite against subsequent presidents who have fared better….from Reagan to Clinton.

    Carter has a continental-sized chip on his shoulders. It is obvious.

  • Garson Abuita

    Thanks for pointing this out about the Pharisees Jack. They continue to be used unfairly as a foil. Right now we’re arguing over who was more Pharisaical, pro-SSM or anti-SSM? Consider the key verses from Leviticus 18 and 20. Their plain meaning (pshat) is to prohibit anal sex between men (it’s clearer in the original Hebrew — “lying” loses some of the sexual innuendo that both “mishkav” and “koiten” retain). Only the Talmudic process expanded that in Judaism to prohibit all same-sex sexual conduct. Was this “tightening up” the Torah the way Jesus would have wanted, or was it imposing strictures but ignoring “justice, mercy and faithfulness” (Matthew 23:23)? Conversely, when Conservative Judaism amended halacha for modern times and held that only anal sex between men is barred as a direct Torah prohibition (issur d’oraita), was this “weaseling out” and diluting God’s words? The truth is that both are within the tradition of rabbinic Judaism.

  • Shawnie5

    Hurry up, Larry! This is the closest you’ve ever come to actually offering something pertinent to the topic, and I’m kind of excited about it…

  • Larry

    EVERY Christian finds self-serving ways to deviate from Leviticus or ignore it when inconvenient. Acts 15 is not a ready answer to the typical Christian hypocritical attitude concerning Leviticus. Christians will cite Leviticus when convenient, disavow it elsewhere. The reasoning for doing so varies depending on whatever canned response they were told by their priest/pastor.

    Matthew 15, “Sexual immorality” will be whatever you feel like imputing to it here. Using it as proof of condemnation of what we know of homosexuality in this day and age is simply applying your own extra-biblical interpretation.

    Proof-texting at its clearest.

    Fact of the matter is, you are demonstrating just how worthless moral claims by Fundamentalist Christians are. As long as you can cite Scripture in a self-serving manner, everything is permitted, especially when directed towards others. Compassion, not necessary God says I can hate them with impunity….

  • Larry

    ” Even when he does good things that help individuals, he probably rationalizes it to himself by saying he’s helping people who are not part of the mainstream that rejected him so soundly in 1980. ”

    So know you are a mind reader? Give me a break. This is just Jack being obstinate in the face of facts to the contrary. SSDD.

  • Fran

    Ted,

    When the scribes of the Pharisees questioned Jesus’ disciples as to why he ate with sinners and tax collectors, he replied;

    “Those who are strong do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Mark 2:16,17).

    That was the point. Jesus was trying to help them turn their life around and not practice sin because of his love for them, for their benefit.

  • Ted

    So, Shawnie5, you would “marry” a polygamous cluster – which might include a former sister-in-law and/or concubine, both of which are also supported in the Bible as “biblical marriage” – but would refuse to even permit a blessing of the loving relationship of two people who are unable procreate?

  • Ted

    Jack wrote: “But the word, “Christian”, again, is a neutral one that simply connotes belief in a certain set of doctrines and teachings.”

    Yes, Jack, words have meanings. But, the “doctrines and teachings” you reference vary, sometimes quite widely, by denomination. And no denomination owns a trademark to the word “Christian”.

    So, what we each call Christian behavior may vary. Assuming you’re American, you understand this is okay, and fully protected by the First Amendment.

  • Ted

    Regarding varying degrees of bad biblical translation, you can start your own research here:

    http://www.compassdistributors.ca/topics/compare.htm

  • Shawnie5

    “Acts 15 is not a ready answer to the typical Christian hypocritical attitude concerning Leviticus.” Why not? It’s pretty straightforward: “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.…” Acts 15:19-20. Nor was it “self-serving”, for it was decided by Jewish Christians of Jerusalem who were themselves Torah-observant, and many of whom had known Jesus.

    “Sexual immorality” will be whatever you feel like imputing to it here”

    What’s your evidence of what “sexual immorality” meant to the Jews of 1st century Judea? If you can not show something substantial, then I think we must rely on Josephus, a first-century Jew who received the same training as Paul, who of course defined it as the sexual behaviors listed in Lev. 20. Not to mention the Talmud…

  • Shawnie5

    You didn’t answer my question, Ted.

  • Larry’s Other Face

    And it is so memorable nobody can bother to quote any of its finer points.

    Apostates can be so lazy.

  • Jack

    No, Larry, not a mind reader, but a behavior-reader. Carter’s post-presidential behavior, interfering with the foreign policy of successive American presidents, has been atrocious, unlike that of any prior president at least in the 20th century.

  • JR

    Exactly, Tie! As much as we all sin, we still are aware ( or should be ) that we commit sin when we gossip, curse, or steal. Forgiveness is there for the asking, of course, but a statement like Jimmy Carter’s dwarfs these sins to misdemeanor status to me. To presume that God would act in a manner that contradicts Himself is the height of arrogance. And in this sound byte age, how soon will we be regularly hearing , ” even Jimmy Carter says God agrees with gay marriage” ? To some, that may be all it takes to believe its true. Bless you.

  • Shawnie5

    But seriously, Ted, no dice. You may not duck out of a debate by referring us to some link. If you’re so sure of your position that you are willing to risk incurring the displeasure of Almighty God toward those who practice immorality and encourage His “little ones” (and no, I don’t mean children) to sin, then no doubt you must know your supporting arguments backward and forward. So present it for cross-examination, from your own mouth (or keyboard, as it were).

  • Shawnie5

    BTW, Lare, before you can pronounce Acts 15 To be “not a ready answer,” you kinda have to know what it actually says. Just for future reference.

  • Tieta

    JR-Amen/well said!

  • Laurie

    Shawnee, Ted’s case was very well presented I thought. But your god just seems like a hater from how you describe it. He made us with desires and weaknesses, and yet can’t handle it and blames us when we act on them. His fault, not ours. I’d take that god back for a refund if I could.

  • JR

    Jack you are plainly the dunce here. And homophobe.

  • Jerome

    Looks like he did, but with a new question. Maybe you need to learn to move on and not be such a tiger.

  • Steve

    Jimmy Carter has been great compared to certain other ex-presidents, especially regarding human rights issues. Where do you get off attacking such a graceful old man who has served his country with such humility and grace?

  • Steve

    Larry clearly knows what that says. You are just being insulting, Shawnie5.

    Get a life and stop being such a rude and stagnant beotch.

  • Steve

    Just like you did.

  • Kar La

    I’m Kar La Ro Na CC32 Michelle Tieta the RepentBot and today my name to bother you with is Tieta. I must spam you often with my Repent! spam or I will implode.
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Repent! Bring out your dead! Repent!
    Or just don’t bother. It makes no difference. (with apologies to Monty Python)

  • Jack

    That’s a plainly wrong statement. Many valid personal opinions existed before Christianity, and many more good ones exist now independent of it.

  • Shawnie5

    No he didn’t. He answered with a question because he had no answer.

    But of course one has no choice but to move on when one’s interlocutor runs out of answers.

  • Shawnie5

    Laurie, he didn’t present a case at all. He acted like he was going to, but just like everybody else he stopped short.

  • Shawnie5

    Larry knows exactly nothing about scripture or the history surrounding it, which is why he fails miserably and slinks away when he ventures beyond his “you-big-meanie” background chorus and actually attempts to discuss it. I had hopes this time but was again disappointed.

  • Larry

    Whatever makes you feel better. I can’t help it if you have to elaborate this entire rhetorical and extra-biblical structure to subvert and stretch the interpretation of various phrases into something to serve your needs.

    You are pinning an entire reversal of a rather direct and unambiguous command by Jesus on your interpretation as to what constitutes “sexual perversion” in order to claim it related to modern views of sexual orientation.

    “What’s your evidence of what “sexual immorality” meant to the Jews of 1st century Judea? ”

    Do we live in 1st Century Judea?
    Am I to expect to live like people from that time and era?
    When shall I start killing my disobedient children and witches?

    You are simply choosing to interpret it, in the modern day to include homosexuality. It is not directly in the text. You had to make assumptions and personal interpretations to make it fit. Thank you for such an admission.

  • Shawnie5

    “Do we live in 1st Century Judea? Am I to expect to live like people from that time and era?”

    What difference does that make? What Paul and Josephus and the Talmud and the Jerusalem Church council viewed as sexually immoral (adultery, same-sex, incest, and bestiality) in the 1st century AD was essentially no different than it was roughly two millenia EARLIER when the Law was given. Why should it be different two millenia LATER?

    “…to subvert and stretch the interpretation of various phrases into something to serve your needs.” I have no “needs” on this subject, remember? Your camp has all the “needs” here–they just don’t have the biblical basis for it as you have demonstrated by not presenting evidence that supports your position.

    “I can’t help it if…

    There’s not much you can “help” on this subject, is there? That would be a good epitaph for you: “Here lies Larry. He couldn’t help it.”

  • Shawnie5

    Larry, let’s cut to the chase here. I will boil this down to make it as easy as possible for you to answer — if you can:

    1. Jesus said that sexual immorality makes us unclean.
    2. Given that He was talking to a group of 1st century Judean teachers of the Law, it makes sense that what He meant by sexual immorality is what the Law said it was (Leviticus 20)
    3. If that is not clear enough, Paul (a 1st century Jew) also refers back to the Law for his definition of sexual immorality as evidenced by his creation of the very broad term “arsenokoite” from key words of Leviticus 20:13.
    4. If that is still not clear enough, we have Josephus (another 1st century Jew) who defines sexual immorality as all the behaviors listed in Leviticus, and deals very specifically with same-sex behavior.

    Now, if you have some evidence that anyone listening to Jesus’ words in Matt 15 might have understood them in some way that allows for same-sex behavior, present it.

  • Arthur Mackey

    Speak the truth in love
    While the most brilliant and talented movers and shakers see gay marriage as the number one classic civil rights agenda, guns, gangs, and violence are absolutely consuming, yes, literally snuffing out the lives of our youth, and even the Charleston 9. Every month there is another mass murder shooting or stabbing. What will it take to be a fool for Christ and admit that the Bible is right, brilliant and most talented politicians? I have the legal right to speak the truth in love. GOD DEFINES MARRIAGE AS BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN ONLY EVEN IF THE SUPREME COURT SAYS OTHERWISE. Blacklist me if you want. I love everyone. Never bully anyone and never physically harm anyone just because you don’t like what they are doing. I don’t hate anyone on God’s earth. I don’t discriminate against anyone on God’s earth, even if I disagree with them. I never disrespect them. I will only speak the truth in love.
    A.) JESUS CHRIST always defines the marraige union (aka one…

  • Jerome

    He responded and you simply took a swipe at him.

    I’d say the egg is splattered on your face bigtime, Tigger.

  • Laurie

    Shawnee, he presented his case and that is pretty plain. The least you can do is be polite to him and not be so demeaning, or is that somehow a problem with you?

  • Laurie

    ” I will boil this down to make it as easy as possible for you to answer ”

    Maybe if you weren’t so demeaning with your tone it would help.

  • Shawnie5

    I politely asked him to make his case instead of referring me to some obscure link that no one will read. People do that all the time to keep from having to answer and be cross-examined. No doubt nobody would allow me to get away with doing that, and rightfully so, and neither will I accept it from someone else.

  • Shawnie5

    OK, Jerome, if he answered then YOU tell me what biblical basis he gave for blessing a sexual union other than marriage???

  • Shawnie5

    What would help is for Larry to quit meandering and demonstrate why he is arguing for his preferred interpretation of the scriptures which he neither reads nor believes but insists on commenting upon nevertheless.

  • Jerome

    Shawnie, please stop shouting, stop swiping, and lose the lastworditis already.

    No one is obliged to answer you, especially when you are so obnoxious.

  • Jerome

    Shawnie, you really need to learn to control your temper and the tone of your posts. Also, a relevant link can be a very valid part of a response and I think that was the case for Larry’s post.

    Looking at this thread and others for this article, your tone with Larry and others has been quite insulting and demeaning. Give that some thought for change, and have a better day.

  • Child of God

    We’re not called to conform to the popularity of the times (Rom 12:2) but to “Study(Proof) the scriptures to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that doesn’t need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”2 Timothy 2:15. -In Love! ?

  • Child of God

    Romans1:18 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie.For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornicati. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

  • Laurie

    Shawnee5, that’s unfair and rude. Larry sure seems to have read the scripture that he is interpreting his way. Can’t you just respectfully disagree with someone, and do so more politely?

  • Larry’s Other Face

    Except you guys are referring to a link nobody will read as some sort of rebuttal. Evidently it is so unmemorable that nobody bothers to cite it. Shawnie made her case in condensed form here. The burden shifted to you guys to react to it. A blind link is a lazy rebuttal.

  • Larry’s Other Face

    You couldn’t find it either, huh? Not surprised.

    I know I’m a huge meanie for expecting people who want to call me names and tell me how to interpret the scriptures to make a convincing case for it. I know it’s extremely impolite and hateful to expose the emptiness of their premises. But I’m afraid that’s all an unavoidable part of that “rigorous debate” that Larry supposedly wants to see us Christians engaging in. Right, Lare? Lare? Oh, yeah, he ducked out too…

  • Shawnie5

    What has Larry said that indicates that he is familiar with scripture? Where did he even offer ANY interpretation of it?

    Do YOU have something substantive to add here, perhaps?

  • Laurie’s Other Face

    Larry, that is unfair and rude. Doc sure seems to have read the scripture that he is interpreting his way. Can’t you just respectfully disagree with someone, and do so more politely?

  • Steve’s Other Face

    Shawnie5 clearly knows what that says. You are just being insulting, Larry.

    Get a life and stop being such a rude and stagnant beotch.

  • Jack

    Neither side improves its position with offensive names and insulting posts.

  • Jack

    Neither side improves its position with offensive names and insulting posts. So drop it, Ms. Other.

  • Laurie

    Shawnee, stop shouting. You’ve had more than enough opportunity to speak here and I’m not interested in a shouting match with you. Time you calmed down and took some chill pills.

  • Shawnie5

    I agree COMPLETELY. Now perhaps we can return to the original subject matter…

  • Shawnie5

    It is not for you to decide when someone has had “enough opportunity to speak. I repeat, do you have something substantive to offer on the subject?

  • Laurie

    Similarly it is not for you to decide what is “substantive”.

    Seriously, I think you need to take a long timeout. I’m not very inclined to debate with someone such as you who attacks and insults so much. Give it a rest already.

  • Shawnie5

    Substantive signifies meaningful to the assertion Larry made but subsequently abandoned for lack of evidence, i.e. that “sexual immorality” as spoken of by Jesus and the Jerusalem council has no discernible meaning. Or to the assertion that Ted made but similarly abandoned, i.e. that the biblical passages concerning same-sex behavior were “poorly translated” and actually allow for what they seem to condemn. Do you have any evidence to offer which actually deals with these assertions?

    “I’m not very inclined to debate with someone such as you”

    Then why have you addressed me a dozen times already?

  • R. Morgan

    Just wondering, what is Mr. Carter’s basis for his opinion? Since he teaches Bible courses, he must have some scriptures that he has located to subject his opinion, right?
    Let’s ask him to share them.

  • Shawnie5

    I doubt that he could answer. I’ve been trying for months to get someone, anyone, around here to produce a solid scriptural basis for such a position, and have come up completely empty. When challenged even a little, they all head for the hills.

  • Jack

    Don’t patronize me, and ease up on the negativity. You are practically the worst offender even if I agree with some of your points.

  • Jack

    That wasn’t a debate. It was a well-deserved chastening. Get over yourself already, Shawnie.

  • Jack

    A change in your tone might help get people to be more willing to engage with you.

  • Shawnie5

    Whoever can reply on the merits readily does so. Whoever can not, whines about “tone”–or scampers off altogether. Here we have the two for the price of one…what a deal.

  • Shawnie5

    LOL!

    Look, Jack/Laurie/Steve/Jerome/Phil/Whoever, both Larry and Ted are big boys and, while perenially short on facts, I see no evidence that they are mentally challenged in any way that would require a defense from you. They initiated the debate and they are responsible for their own failure. You are in fact making them look worse than they already do. If you can’t add anything on the merits, then MYOB.

  • R. Morgan

    Dear Mr. Carter:

    We believe that Jesus left this world almost 2,000 years ago. What did he say in the Bible that leads you to conclude that he would give his stamp of approval on same sex marriage?

    Sincerely,

    R. Morgan

  • Jack

    That wasn’t a debate. It was a well-deserved chastening of you. Get over yourself already, Shawnie.

  • Jack

    That wasn’t a debate. It was a well-deserved chastening of you and your insults. Get over yourself already, Shawnie.

  • Fmr Cath

    @Ted, So you focus on the verses you like and ignore the ones you don’t like…. that’s what most people do. On the other hand, Jesus said, “GOD’S WORD IS TRUTH”. (John 17:17) God’s word states that “men who lie with men” are condemned. (not to hell by the way but to death) They will not inherit God’s Kingdom. (1Cor.6:9-10) V.11 implies that to be approved, these ones had quit practicing the condemned behaviors. Let me ask you, is it love for a religious leader to allow/condone/encourage behaviors that are clearly condemned by God? You may be “happy” for now but will end up losing your everlasting life. Don’t forget, “whom God loves, He disciplines”. (Hebrews 12:4-11)

  • R. Morgan

    Paul wrote in 2 Timothy:
    4 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound[a] teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

  • Jack

    Steve, you’re just mouthing platitudes. I’m focused specifically on Carter’s behavior around the world since his ouster in 1980. He has cozied up to America’s foes time and again, including to dictators and tyrannical regimes.

  • Jack

    No, “Jack,” the pro-Jimmy Carter side is unable to make a rational case for its position, substituting rhetoric and emotion for facts and logic.

  • Jack

    JR, your post is the ultimate non sequitur.

    And if you don’t know what that word means, look it up….and while you’re at it, look up “homophobe,” too. It sounds like you’re guilty of projection on that one. Some of the most obvious homophobes make a habit out of accusing others of same.

  • Jack

    With every little squeak and squeal of his, “Jack” sounds like an old familiar whiny lefty who haunts these boards and collects new names for himself like some women collect hats or shoes. When he runs out of names to make up, female as well as male, he pilfers other people’s names.

    A real stand-up guy…..right…

    His problem is that no matter what name he uses, he sounds like the same person because his writing style gives it away. Even when he poses as a female, he comes across as a cross-dresser with a ZZ Top beard. You’d think he’d consider shaving the beard first.

    When you’re secure in your beliefs and need no external validation for them, you don’t have to resort to such tactics. You can stand on your own two feet and defend yourself.

  • Shawnie5

    “When you’re secure in your beliefs and need no external validation for them,”

    That is the key right there, Jack. That is exactly why gays/atheists swarm Christian discussion forums while Christian presence on gay/atheist forums is virtually nonexistent.

  • Jack

    Shawnie, notice how the little tyke can’t stand on his own two feet, but has to pretend he’s either you or me.

    When he tries to imitate you, it’s especially funny. He’s afraid of you and humiliated that you destroy him in every argument and so he hides behind your name and squeals about civility.

    The little man needs a mother, but the irony is that he’s probably old enough to be your father.

  • Jack

    Here comes Shorty again….phony “Jack.”

    Still smarting over getting beaten by Shawnie, lad?

  • Jack

    Dainty little pseudo-Jack is at it again – squeaking about Marquis of Queensbury rules that he never obeys.

    Run along, Shorty, before Shawnie bests you again.

  • Shawnie5

    Every whine about “tone” is a compliment, Jack. It means “You are a big old meanie for asking me to defend my position when I can’t.”

  • Jack

    Whenever Shorty loses an argument, he steals a name.

  • Jack

    Shawnie, it seems that Shorty really has it in for you because he can’t stand losing debates to a woman.

    Scratch a lefty and you’ll sometimes find a misogynist lurking inside, petrified of women.

    Your besting him in every debate brings out his worst fears — and predictable whimpering protests.

    Maybe you should go easy on the little one.

  • Jack

    LOL….this is hilarious. The little one, using various names, including Shawnie’s, is afraid of Shawnie and is begging her to stop exposing his feeble arguments.

    The obvious solution is to withdraw from further humiliation, but I think Shorty is a bit of a masochist.

  • Jack

    Thanks Garson. But regarding the interpretation you put forth, I’m unaware of historical evidence that this is the way Jews or Judaism interpreted it through the ages.

  • Shawnie5

    “Larry’s Other Face” is a little private joke between Larry and me — I normally only pull it out in order to have a little fun with Larry’s particularly entertaining brand of hypocrisy. Here I used it with our chameleon troll because his hypocrisy is just as entertaining…but at least I’m not trying to fool anyone, for everyone know’s “other face” is me. I should save it just for Larry, though, for it can get a little confusing if overused.

  • Jack

    Laurie sounds like a man doing a supremely poor job of imitating a woman. (Picture the late Ayatollah Khoumeini, unshaven, and in a dress .) Laurie’s Other Face is most likely his conscience telling him to stand up and be a man.

  • Jack

    Yes, Shawnie, that’s very clear it was you and you deliberately made it obvious, as you say, unlike your incredibly shrinking protagonist who’s so afraid of you, he has to keep changing his name.

  • Jack

    Another meaningless rhetorical flourish in lieu of facts and logic — courtesy of our mousy board chameleon who can’t stand up to for himself but needs to invent an endless array of new characters that sound exactly like him.

    Shorty, at least find a good ghostwriter…..all your names have the same tone, tenor, and content, sometimes word for word.

  • Shawnie5

    LOL! Love the mental picture — almost as funny as the cat-herding evangelicals!

  • Shawnie5

    BTW, I’ve never believed Larry to be a man, either, although I could be wrong, and I’ll address him as one if it makes him happy. How many men have you ever heard rant about “slut-shaming???”

  • Jack

    Funny how the vanquished one wags his wee finger at Shawnie while hiding behind someone else’s name.

    If Shawnie bends down toward the ground, she can hear his faint squeaks of protest at the magnitude of the mismatch.

  • Jack

    Shawnie, please go easy on our vanquished little board chameleon ….as you can tell from his posts, he’s very fragile and delicate, his little feet ache from constantly fleeing your presence, and he is running out of people’s names to use.

  • Jack

    Well, either he’s a she, she’s a he, or he’s a he who sounds like a she.

    Hard to say….

  • Jack

    Shawnie, regarding our not-so-mysterious, incredibly shrinking board chameleon, it’s too bad you don’t know where he lives. If you did, you could perhaps send the “vanquished one” a bouquet of flowers so as to soothe his delicate feelings. And then, perhaps in a supreme act of charity, you could teach him how to debate without getting shoe leather in his mouth.

  • Jack

    Calling Jimmy Carter, in his current state and voicing his current opinions, which go exponentially beyond gay marriage, a heretic is being unduly harsh to heretics.

  • Jack

    As a more contemporary way of preaching the Gospel, perhaps preachers should just tell everybody to listen intently to what Jimmy Carter says and do exactly the opposite.

  • Pingback: Linkathon! » PhoenixPreacher | PhoenixPreacher()

  • Jimmy Carter’s position on same-sex marriage is more political than pastoral. The Bible condemns fornication, too. If a pregnant teen goes to a crisis pregnancy center, the Christians there will not judge her for the sin of fornication, nor equate the victimless crime of fornication with the crime of killing an unborn child. Jimmy Carter similarly says: “I don’t see that gay marriage damages anyone else.” But just because a secular activity is not damaging to anyone else, like smoking pot, is victimless, does not automatically make it spiritual. Christian moral standards on marriage and sexuality are detailed in I Corinthians 7. The apostle Paul claimed the risen Jesus told him three times, “my grace is sufficient for thee…” and some Christians take these words as a license to do as they please, ignoring the rest of the moral instructions Paul gives throughout his epistles. But I’ve never heard them cite “three times…” to justify abortion nor same-sex relations, nor smoking…

  • If Christians are sincerely trying to follow their Scriptures but slipping up, that’s commendable. But the “Christians” I encounter revel in fornication, deriding anyone not “getting it” as a real loser.

    Around 1989 or 1990, when my friend Greg and I were roommates in San Diego, Greg’s friend Ron, a gay Christian, came by on one of his usual visits to the apartment. Ron was surprised that I respected people of other faiths, and during the course of an armchair theological discussion, I mentioned in passing, offhandedly, non-judgmentally, merely as an academic point, that the Bible condemns homosexuality (as it condemns fornication).

    Ron didn’t become angry. He didn’t angrily tell me to “grow up!” He didn’t try and rationalize his sinning with “three times…” like so many Christians do with fornication. Rather, he just bowed his head slightly and admitted he was a sinner.

    As Jesus told the Pharisees, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of…

  • As Jesus told the Pharisees, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

  • Jerome

    Jack, your insults and deceptions and Shawnie’s too are merely demonstrations of your own short “stature”.

  • Jerome

    Jack, you’re just mouthing. At best.

  • Jerome

    Jack, please stop the insults and demeaning remarks. They aren’t helping the discussion.

  • Jerome

    “Virtually non-existent” is a bit of an exaggeration, but the conclusions to draw from that might not be what you want.

  • Jerome

    Again the insults, Jack. Tone it down or get help.

  • Jerome

    Shawnie, you are in fact a big old meanie who can’t defend her position without throwing insults. That is what your history above plainly shows.

  • Jerome

    You’re doing a lot of shoe leather chewing yourself Jack. The bitterness shows in your frequent insults that you sling.

  • Jerome

    As usual, you just make personal attacks. Get over that already.

  • Jerome

    Again the insults from you, Jack. Seems like that is all you have to offer.

  • Jerome

    Again the insults from you Jack. Clearly that is all you have to offer.

  • Jerome

    Whenever Jack and Shawnie lose arguments, as they typically do, they start slinging insults.

  • Jerome

    Stow the insults, Jack. It’s time.

  • No brained man an woman.try all u want to it will never change

  • Don Shearer

    Jesus was not referring to homosexuals when He mentioned eunuchs who were “born that way.” the Bible never uses the words homosexual and eunuch interchangeably. Furthermore, eunuchs are never referred to in Scripture as being in sin, while homosexuality is universally condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. Let’s be honest here. You are twisting Gods word to fit your sinful lifestyle.

  • I trust Jimmy Carter more than I trust many fundamentalist Christians who really know less than they think about God and Jesus. First of all, God did not create the institution of marriage. Using Adam and Eve as proof he did is ludicrous. They were simply symbols of the mating process. This is seen in all animal species. Marriage was created thousands of years ago by humans to unite families for economic and social purposes. That is the reason that marriages were always arranged. Jesus does not even get involved in marriage; i.e. Cana. If he wanted to make a statement about marriage coming from God, then he would have married the couple himself. Religion has made marriage a God thing. Therefore, if two people in love wish to form a bond, they should be allowed to do it. This is Jimmy Carter’s message and I agree wholeheartedly with it. However, one day when our Lord returns in the cloud and reveals all truth, we will discover who was right on this issue, won’t we?

  • TC

    Jimmy has gone bonkers. You don’t even need to read scripture, all you need to know is that Jesus Christ abrogated “liberal” Jewish “Mosaic” laws, such as the ability to get a divorce.

    Yes, that’s right, Jesus Christ eliminated the authority for a man or woman to get divorced. Jesus made the sanctity of marriage STRICTER not looser or more liberal. Thus, it’s fairly easy to see in conjunction with his other sayings on homosexuality, that he would NOT be a supporter of gay marriage.

    Next.

  • Xavier Jenkins

    There’s only ever been one perfect one. His name was Jesus. The Bible divides fairly evenly. Old Testament? Vengeful and jealous God who punished harshly. New Testament where Jesus paid for our Sins with his blood. And we all live under that covenant of Grace. So while all sin is bad, we’re covered in that Grace and forgiven. Yet, we pick and choose which of the sins we want to condemn others for. Interesting.

  • Susan Pond

    Tieta, homosexuality has been going on since mankind began. God doesn’t make junk!