Opinion

Why many Catholic women are voting for Hillary

U.S. Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton acknowledges the crowd at a campaign rally at Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona, on November 2, 2016. Photo courtesy of Reuters/Brian Snyder *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-MCGUIRE-OPED, originally transmitted on Nov. 3, 2016.
U.S. Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton acknowledges the crowd at a campaign rally at Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona, on November 2, 2016. Photo courtesy of Reuters/Brian Snyder *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-MCGUIRE-OPED, originally transmitted on Nov. 3, 2016.

Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton acknowledges the crowd at a campaign rally at Arizona State University in Tempe on Nov. 2, 2016. Photo courtesy of Reuters/Brian Snyder *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-MCGUIRE-OPED, originally transmitted on Nov. 3, 2016.

(RNS) The gender gap in the Catholic Church is old news, whether the subject is who embodies the church’s teaching authority or who gets to make the big institutional decisions. Now, as this deeply divisive election season draws to a close, new poll results from Public Religion Research Institute spotlight the Catholic gender gap on political preferences.

PPRI data reveal that 58 percent of white Catholic men support Donald Trump, compared with just 38 percent of white Catholic women – a wider gap than just about any other religious group.

Hillary Clinton wins support from 49 percent of the same group of women, but only 33 percent from men. White Catholic women, together with the increasingly large Latino Catholic population that heavily favors Clinton, combine to drive Catholic voter choice to over 50 percent in favor of Clinton in the weeks prior to the election.

With the most misogynist candidate in our country’s history running for president against the first woman in our history to win a major party nomination, it’s little surprise that women favor Clinton over Trump.


RELATED: Catholics, the ultimate swing voters, lean heavily toward Clinton


But the issue goes well beyond gender, though Trump’s frightening track record on sexual harassment, by his own assertions, stands in stark contrast to Clinton’s long record of advocacy for pay equity and women’s rights.

The fact that a majority of Catholic women are on the same page as women voters nationally speaks to women’s shared concerns about access to health care for families, the rights of workers, care for the poor, abhorring racism, concern for environmental degradation — all issues we find in Catholic social teaching.

What about human life? True, on the issue of abortion, the majority of Catholic women seem willing to vote for a candidate who is clearly pro-choice. Why? I do not know of any woman who is truly “pro-abortion,” as many of Clinton’s critics would say. In fact, polls show that higher percentages of women view abortion as being morally wrong than men. Our most fundamental role as women is about the lives we help to create, nurture, educate and grow into mature adulthood; we walk the journeys of so many human lives from birth through the final days. That’s truly women’s work; we get it about the sacredness of life.

But at the ballot box, abortion opponents like me — using our prudential judgment, informed by our conscience — must choose a candidate whose positions do not perfectly align with church teachings. We are voting for a president, not a pope. We want a president who can provide leadership for our country, a president who will move our broken government to function more effectively and more justly for all people.

We need a president who believes in strong national defense, but one who also knows how to make and keep the peace. We need a president who believes in supporting the needs of vulnerable people, including our children, our sick, our poor, our elderly, our immigrants and too many of our veterans. We need a president who is not afraid to remind us that we were commanded to love one another. We need a president to embody our national values of freedom, justice and equality of opportunity for all people, not just the privileged few.

We need a president who not only gives voice to our shared national values, but who also understands the necessary give-and-take of politics in an immensely diverse and divided nation.

I don’t expect to find any politician with whom I completely agree on all policy matters. I disagree with President Obama at times, and I disagree with Clinton on some issues. But I expect the president to be someone with whom I can disagree and who will listen respectfully.

I expect the president to be someone who knows how to work through opposition to forge the necessary compromises that are the real stuff of politics — perhaps lacking the moral perfection we seek in church teachings, but striving to get a little closer each day to the ideal.

What is most surprising about the PRRI poll results is not that Catholic women favor Clinton, but that so many Catholic men favor Trump. This is a man who has abused and humiliated women, shown appalling disrespect for people of many different races and religions and is proud of paying no taxes, thus failing to carry his fair share of supporting our common goods. He mocks the disabled, calls people names and encourages violence against anyone who disagrees with him. He lies so much that it’s hard to think that he’d uphold any promises he’s made, including those that might resemble Catholic teachings.

In prior years many bishops have wrongfully sent the unmistakable message that you cannot be a “good Catholic” if you vote for the Democratic candidate. This year, those same bishops are demonizing both candidates, knowing that a nod toward Trump would be unacceptable. Would that some bishop had the courage to speak out loud about the terrible danger of Trump; perhaps the men would follow suit.

Faithful citizenship tells us that it is our moral responsibility to vote. Like Catholic women, I prefer to choose a president who respects my voice, who reflects most of my values and who will listen without insult when we must disagree.

(Patricia McGuire is the president of Trinity Washington University, a college committed to the education of women, grounded in the Catholic tradition. The views expressed here are her own.)

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  • Lets be honest…prolife to most Catholics mean anti-abortion. They are pro birth and not pro-life. They only want the baby to be born, then when it is a Muslim, an immigrant, a refugee or a gay they reject the person as unacceptable.

  • I have joked in the past that if there was a prenatal test for homosexuality or atheism, Catholics would become ardent supporters of abortion.

  • Clinton and Democrats, by addressing the causes of abortions, have and will continue to cause the number of abortions to drop. Pro life is so much more than forcing desperate woman to continue a pregnancy.

  • Hillary has already made her position very clear, folks.

    “…(Deep)-seated cultural codes, religious beliefs and structural biases have to be changed.

    And she’s indeed ready to use the power of **government** to force YOU, the Catholic Christians (and all the rest of us Christians too!), to change your Catholic (and other Christian) beliefs within the public square. Hillary’s ready to repeal your constitutional religious freedoms NOW, at any point that they may publicly oppose the current Far Left agenda. No joke.

    So let’s be really honest here.
    If you vote for Hillary (as Patricia McGuire indirectly asked you to), you need to just dial up your bishop and DROP your membership in the Catholic Church, right now.
    (Conflict-of-interest laws, you know.)

  • How about you not speak for us “Catholic Christians”? And no, she’s not asking us to change our beliefs within the public square. She’s asking us to emphasize beliefs that are well within the Catholic tradition – like the ones that emphasize helping the poor – but are different from the ones you think are important.

    Also, the Bishops don’t determine who is and isn’t Catholic. We don’t need their permission to vote.

  • Killing babies in the womb is an “intrinsic evil”. Yes, there are many social justice issues but none come close to killing babies. The Catholic church and Pope Francis is very clear on this issue. Anyone voting for a candidate that is pro-abortion is enabling the killing of innocent babies and, therefore, has the blood of these children on their hands.

  • I am a catholic woman, and my reasons for not voting for Hillary have nothing to do with abortion (which I only feel should be used in extenuating circumstances). Catholic women who are voting for Hillary because she is a woman need serious help. She does nothing for women. In fact she will push women back 50 yrs because she cannot even be an ethical human being. She is a complete disaster, corrupt, liar, that uses issues like tissues. When shes finished using them for the intended purpose they are cast away. Please not this woman for president, PLEASE.

  • Please re-read my post, Ms. E. I have NOT attempted to state what Catholic Christians believe. I only said what HILLARY CLINTON intends to do to Catholic Christians once elected, and I gave a direct quote from her that shows her intention.

    Make no mistake about Hillary’s unprecedented promise. It used to be that you could openly express or practice your **religion-based** challenges within the public policy square, and the government wouldn’t be openly talking about **changing your religious beliefs** as a result. But now Hillary has promised to cross that line.

    In fact, it was traditional Catholic resistance (the reproductive-choice-employer thing) that led to her crossing the line.

    So if you are Catholic, Ms. E, Hillary’s promise is a direct threat to YOU and your religious freedom. And me and mine as well. Even if we were atheists, this would be true.

  • “The next president needs to make it clear that great charities like the Little Sisters of the Poor need no federal instruction in doing the right thing. It comes down to a choice between the Little Sisters and Big Brother, and I’m going with the Sisters.”

    — Jeb Bush

  • The other side does silly things, like try and teach abstinence-only, as if teens will actually abstain, and then when they get pregnant because they aren’t taught how to use protection… sorry, no abortion for you!

  • I suspect that anyone calling themselves a Christian who supports Hillary is not much of a Christian, unless lying, corruption, hatred and financial dishonestly are Christian attributes.

  • A person baptized in the Catholic Church and then leaving all of its precepts behind is not a person we Catholics want speaking for us. But thank-you anyhow.

  • Come out from under your rock and meet the real world. If you are a teen and haven’t heard about birth control and how to get it (duh, like walk into any PP office) you need to slow down on the LSD.

  • Sure Catholics, vote for the twice divorced adulterer. Then get back to stopping abortion and poverty by trying to ban birth control.

  • There’s another strong, subconscious reason why Catholic women are going to the Hiliary camp: it’s their protesting against the all-male Roman Catholic hierarchy! If I were a woman I would be doing that too!

    Too bad that in their refusal to look for anything close to “moral perfection” they also look past all the corruption of the Clinton Foundation and their well-documented pay-for-play schemes with the worst dictators in the world who oppress their women! Gee, it’s hard to be a well-educated female voter this year, and stay up on the back-stories of each of these very flawed candidates!

  • This is too utterly based in an absolute ignorance of the specific details of history and sheer blind hatred to begin to respond to.

  • Basically, the same as it takes for anyone else . . . disordered passions due to failing to try to do what is good and seek what is true, blind hatred rooted in abysmal ignorance of history, both secular and sacred, and a failure to ask for and respond to graces.

  • I shall.

    And I will try to recall to myself a small number of the names of brilliant, learned, holy, self-sacrificing, heroic Catholics, among the millions and millions who have been among the Church’s ranks throughout the centuries, and who, in spite of complex events throughout these 2000 or so years, have contributed so greatly to not only letters and the sciences, but also to culture and humanitarian ventures.

    Of course, you are far too superior to others and immensely more knowledgeable than all the wise and great persons throughout a long history that you slander to bother to be aware of such irrelevancies.

  • The founding fathers created a constitutional republican government with limited federal authority. This was designed for a moral Christian population that feared God and believed in a system based on firm moral absolutes. So many of laws go back to the morals of the Bible that it is fair to say that the plan and system of government they gave us has a firm biblical basis. Sad to say, the good people of this country never completely lived up to the high standard they set.

    The atheists and humanists that dominate the leftist, liberal side of the political spectrum believe that God is the great fairy in the sky and that the bible is mythology. They don’t consider either particularly relevant to a modern industrial technological state. They believe that the 10 Commandments are really only the 10 Suggestions. The foundation of all laws and government is ultimately religion and morals. Humanistic religion and morals are very different from Bible religion and morals.

    The foundations of atheistic humanism religion/religious philosophy are the unstable shifting sands of their choice of personal morals that apply that day. Since they don’t have a system of absolute morals, everything is relative, negotiable, and selective. If they find some moral principle they don’t like, they are sure that moral principles from the age of enlightenment outrank anything in the scriptures. This is the source of the endless hypocrisy of liberals. For example, they believe in majority rule, but only when they are in the majority. They believe in freedom of speech, but only when they are doing the speaking. Else the higher, more enlightened moral of political correctness kicks in. This justifies silencing all conservative critics. The list goes on and on.

    If the liberals sweep Congress and the White House on Nov. 8, the republic will never recover from it. The first order of business will be to pack and stack the Supreme Court with extreme leftist socialists, atheist, and social justice warriors who will subvert the courts and the country after their humanistic image. Next to go will be all 2nd amendment rights. Prepare to surrender your guns to Hillary’s homeland security goons. Then Christian TV will go, since it is all so politically incorrect. No more CBN, Trinity Broadcasting, or Marcus and Joni on Daystar. Then they will strictly regulate free speech on the internet. No more christian or conservative websites. Anyone who believes in God will not be allowed to serve as an officer in the military, since there is not a complete separation of church and state if anyone in the military is a believer. (Believe it or not, Obama is discretely enforcing this rule right now. This is a complete abuse of his powers as commander in chief.)

    Christianity will be slowly outlawed. The first protection to go will be tax exemptions enjoyed by ministries. Then pastors and priests will be required by law to serve communion to practicing homosexuals. They will be required to marry homosexual couples. Priests who do not marry homos will go to prison. Church property will be confiscated, all in the name of the higher humanistic morals of inclusion and tolerance. Christian groups will not be allowed to have bible studies with a few friends over in private homes without first registering the church meeting as a potentially subversive group.

    The worst thing that will happen is that Hillary will continue to push Putin over Syria. This will eventually cause WW3. Your children will grow up with cancer in a nuclear wasteland. Goodbye, American Dream, here comes Humanistic Hell on Earth.

    Libs, Dems, atheists, humanists, & social justice warriors, do you really want this? Have you thought the matter through?

    PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO TEN OF YOUR DEMOCRAT FRIENDS.

    THEN FORWARD IT TO ANYBODY YOU THINK IS STILL UNDECIDED. THE FUTURE OF AMERICA IS AT STAKE.

  • “the most misogynist candidate in our country’s history”

    Bullseye Dr. McGuire! This is a well written and thoughtful essay. It is saddening that so many males think trump is acceptable to vote for. Do they think so little of women too? Don’t they have daughters, sisters, mothers, aunts?

    I can’t even begin to understand how a woman can vote for someone who regards them with utter disdain at best. If they’re strongly opposed to Sec. Clinton I can understand voting for a 3rd party or not at all. But —— for trump? Sad to have so little self- regard.

  • Thank you for demonstrating that in supporting four times bankrupt, three times married, 2 Corinthians, and always lying, pussy grabbing, adulterous, and self-proclaimed fornicator Trump,
    …that lying, corruption, hatred, and financial dishonesty are indeed Christian attributes.

  • And anyone opposing universal birth control and responsible sex education also has the blood of children on their hands.

  • No floydlee, she is not and cannot use the government to change or force anyone’s beliefs. The 1st ammendment guarantees that. What the government CAN do is to make sure religious actions do not violate the laws of the land or interfere with legal, civil, constitutional and religious rights of other citizens. One law for everyone. No special priveleges. I am sure if some Muslims, for example, wanted special treatment, you would better understand what this is about.

  • Our laws are made by the legislators we elect and determined to be constitutional or unconstitutional by our courts. What churches or religions think or believe is irrelevant.

  • Jesus said his kingdom was no part of this world and christians were to render Caesar’s things to Caesar and god’s things to god. Why are christians ignoring him and getting mixed up in Caesar’s things?

  • Trinity College 1979. As an alumna of Trinity College and as a mother and wife, I must say this is a really deplorable excuse for why your vote goes to Hillary, Pat. And, I might add, that as the daughter of a federal prosecutor and Special Prosecutor, I must point to the legal issues involved with both Clintons, specifically with their Foundation. But, most importantly, as the daughter of a mother of seven children, I must express my utter distain for any reason for partial birth abortion as a legal answer. Women should, and do have certain rights, but those rights begin way before the full term of the fetus (baby). Sorry, but there is no pass on that, even from our Holy Father in Rome, Pope Francis. Having raised my three oldest sons in the era of the blue dress of Monica Lewinsky, I must tell you that many of us will not excuse that behavior. It was truly disgusting and way beyond any reasonable explanation. Shame on Hillary for letting it go, as most women would have ended their marriage in order to show their child or children the moral fortitude they held. There have been so many wonderful and experienced women, from Trinity College and beyond, that I have known as a Catholic lay woman. Many could run this country as President. This election is serious. We Catholic women, or actually all women, have the obligation on the behalf of the unborn to not elect this serial opportunist for President of the United States of America.

  • Are you and your husband worried about trumps foundation, you know the one he uses to pay personal lawsuits?

  • That is valid but in its wording it favors religion because it spells out what the government can’t do.

  • To be completely honest, other than the completely malformed and unfounded (from a Christ-centered and Biblically/Constitutionally supported standpoint) bases for this article, and all it hopes to achieve (from a President), it is very well written and “seemingly” well-aligned with God’s heart except for the parenthetical caveat above.

    Having said that, the real problem (on both sides of the spiritual aisle) with this article and what it purports is that it emphasizes and highlights the fact that VERY few Christians have done the real faith-based work of finding a truly viable candidate that’s available to them who will not require them to compromise at all on any “essentials” of the faith.

    In other words, there are candidates that are not the lesser of any evil because their platforms align extremely well with Catholic/Christian social teaching. However, hardly anyone is doing the real work of faith required to find them and bring them to the forefront and past the two variations of the same theme that everyone can’t get away from. Chaos and bedlam.

    When faced with that myself, thanks to the Holy Spirit, He finally brought me to a place of peace and understanding (with the moral courage and integrity to do so) that has me voting for Darrell Castle from the Constitution Party up-ticket and Republican down-ticket. He is truly a Christian’s dream, and is more than qualified to run the country. Mr. Castle is a truly Christ-centered candidate that represents our Lord and Savior and His virtues, and defends the Constitution and the principles it was founded on. He’s Christian first, and an American second, so not only does he have his priorities in order, his experience as a lawyer and a military person round him out nicely as well.

    Having said that, when it came down to being convicted months ago by the Holy Spirit about this election, I had to ask myself (by pretending that) if my tiny little vote was actually the one that decided the election and the path that the country would be headed on, assuming all that the candidate I vote for supports would to come into being, would I be able to stand spotless and blameless before the Lord on my day of judgement, or would I have to confess for that in order to be forgiven for what I’d set in motion? The choice was clear after that! I had to find another option or consider not voting for anyone at all. Thanks to Jesus, I found that in Mr. Castle!!!

    No one can support, or participate in, evil practices or ideals in the hope that good will come out of it. For woe will come to those who do and to those who do (or support) it and call it good, while calling good evil. On the latter, which of the two primary candidates publicly said that people of faith should change their beliefs if those beliefs are not in-line with the government? I’ll give you a hint: it’s the one that this article supports. And Trump supports torture, even for non-combatants. What a pair. The dEVIL is loving it all I’m sure!

    Any attempts to whitewash away or fain ignorance of such things is folly and women (or men) who do are not really women or men at all. They are simply legal adults, or adult females and males by government standards, who have not grown enough in their faith with Him to move past their spiritual immaturity and into true adulthood. People like this author may cast her vote as she will, and say what she wants, but empty arguments that are not rooted in Scripture and the True teachings of Christ hold no real beauty, dignity, or merit at all; especially when compared to voting for people who clearly represent our Lord.

    The only way to win, and the only path to true victory, is with Him!!! Vote for Castle!

    May Christ be with you

  • Hilary Clinton met Mother Theresa once and asked her why she thought we haven’t had a women president yet. In true saintly style, Mother Theresa responded with little hesitation by saying, “We probably aborted her.” – That’s a true woman!!!

  • No you want to be part of Caesar. The theme of early christianity was neutrality. When Satan was tempting Jesus he indicated that he controlled all governments. Jesus said the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one and that his kingdom is no part of the world.

  • G.K. Chesterton , the Apostle of Common Sense, said – “Christianity hasn’t been tried and found wanting, it’s been found difficult and left untried”, while the central philosophy of Thelema teaches that, “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”.

    Which type of leadership, and way of life, do you think is better for children and adults to live?! Real love does not include allowing people to do whatever they want, or making it easy for them to make really bad choices!

  • Christ is in the business of rejecting actions not people, and so is the Catholic Church that follows Him, but there are those who hold their actions so close to their own identities as people that they can not see the difference in that at all, or recognize the truth that the Catholic Church consistently helps each of the demographics you mentioned in serious and significant ways.

  • Sorry, but no! We would become even more ardent supporters of the transformative power of Christ and the Grace of His Love. DNA is only a building block, it’s not our absolute destiny for all of the choices we make or what we do. Nothing is impossible with Him!

  • So even though you’re wrong in saying that the Church works against, immigrants, Muslims, and homosexuals, you now think it’s alright to invoke the Constitution as a support for your argument that the government has no duty to uphold that same Constitution when it comes to defending the Constitutional rights of Churches, and the people within them, who exist under it in this country?

  • Non-Catholic Christians who continually advance the rhetoric, and materially unauthorized (by God) reality, that females should be able to assume preaching roles within their Churches.

    Oh, and the fact that all Pope Francis and his predecessors say about why, even though there is a great deal more on it that explains it far better, is that Jesus only chose men to be the original twelve apostles and Catholic tradition has always supported that. They might as well say, “Because the Holy Trinity and we say so!”.

    People of either gender don’t respond well to that and the Magesterium could easily do a far better job of fully supporting the reality of non-ordination of women by taking people through an Old and New Testament walk. It’s truly a “teachable moment” and they are the “Teaching Authority” of the Church after all.

  • Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Romans 13:1

    Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 1 Peter 2:13-14

    Christ does not require that Christians have nothing to do with governments, but rather that thy obey lawful government in all but that which is sinful.

  • You know nothing about the Clinton Foundation. They give 6-8% of their take to people in need. They keep the rest.

  • Propaganda sites like Breitbart declared that the election was all but over, and Trump himself parroted this claim during his own stump speech.

    But now it turns out that the Fox News reporter who started the whole thing is admitting that he pretty much made up the entire thing….

    With each republican lie, another republican patsy is born. And America is pushed one step closer to death..

  • You are right, that is why Hillary Clinton has her eyes fixed on the Supreme Court. That is where she will “get us” the religious, in the courts. 30 September 2016, Marjorie Dannenfelser, Life News. com, Hillary Clinton’s Agenda: Abortion a “Fundamental Human Right” Paid for at Your Expense. 14 October 2016, Steven Ertelt and Jay Hobbs, Life News. com, Appeals Court Upholds California Law Forcing Pregnancy Centers to Promote Abortion (at Pro-Life Centers.) Trump/Pence 2016! I am a prior Catholic turned Evangelical Christian! God’s grace and blessings on all of us!!!

  • Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. But life comes from God and belongs to God and Caesar doesn’t have the right to kill an innocent child. Holy Bible, Psalm 139 verses 13-18, For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works, and that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all are written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand; when I awake, I am still with You.

  • Your personal odyssey, I am sure, is like mine and others, filled with its own disappointments, struggles, sufferings, and demands.

    Yes, the Universal Church has often been failed by its members off and on throughout its two-thousand year life, sometimes by many at the same time, at times by the personal lives of popes and prelates and clergy or any rank of faithful.

    Only GOD knows how many persons have been discouraged and driven away from it due to stupidities and selfishness on the part of persons who claim to be its cells or members.
    But the Church Universal, perhaps due to the unique role granted to the Petrine ministry which has been sometimes granted to very imperfect persons, as it has struggled to fulfill its mysterious enduring mission in the setting of dynamic, often demanding, and also very creative diverse peoples or nations of Western cultures, arguably will remain an enduring mysterious presence and instrument of providence until the end of time.

    As theologians have realized, the Church is itself a sacrament, and its heart is the Eucharist. But its members are all too often but imperfect manifestations of what the Church truly is.

    Best regards.

  • What about it (Humanism)?

    I chose to respond to what you had written, that the Church in your opinion does silly things like teaching that abstinence only is the best sexual practice available to children. I wasn’t trying to cover the gambit of ideological/philosophical systems that people can choose from. But since you brought up hUMANISM, I will address it.

    hUMANISM is essentialy a school of thought that human beings are their own greatest good and there is no Creator, Divinity, or God in existence for people to know, love, and serve of their own free-will. Mankind is his and her own God and needs no other as a result.

    Having said that, hUMANISM is VERY similar to Thelema that I explained above, and it contributes greatly to the defeatist thoughts of people who say/think ignorant things like – being chaste before marriage is too hard and I (as well as anyone) can’t do that, and any God or Church who asks me to is crazy.

    I stand by Chesterton’s quote in response to that.

  • When you don’t pay your bills, and stiff hundreds of thousands of small businesses, it’s called theft.

  • Proof ? (We know for a fact the Clintons take nothing). We know for a fact that trump’s foundation pays his personal legal costs.

  • More likely she would have been born but wasn’t, because her mother died. Her mother had a non viable pregnancy, but rather than give her proper medical attention, the Catholic hospital refused to abort the nonviable fetus and stood by and watched as the mother died unnecessarily. All later children that might have been born now don’t exist.

    And mother teresa was a vicious, nasty piece of work. She worshipped a god who took pleasure in suffering so she intentionally did as little as possible to reduce suffering. Hundreds of millions donated to her charity went into Vatican coffers while cancer sufferers where given nothing but aspirin and dull needles were reused.

  • Better to focus on the well-being of humans than on the arbitrary whims of a god that doesn’t exist.

  • There was a multi program in Colorado to make long acting birth control available to low income women. The abortion rates dropped and costs to taxpayers dropped. The program saved millions of dollars. Win Win.

    Republicans refused to extend the program because it did not properly shame sexually active women.

    Google it.

    By their fruit shall ye know them.

    Those shouting about pro life don’t give a [email protected] about life.

  • Of course, and if some people with limited incomes have a drug addiction taxpayers should be obliged to supply them with weed or something.

    And if some folks with lots of money engage in financing high-risk loans and lose their wealth, then they should be able to get the government (that is, all the rest of the citizens who pay taxes) to bail them out. After all, they are only “economically active” folks.

    How about insisting that everyone use their genitals responsibly?

    How about making everyone who does anything stupid who should know better have to face the consequences of their actions?

    Win WIN.

  • Yeppers. You care so much about lives that when faced with a choice between reducing abortion and shaming sexually active women, suddenly the focus is on sex shaming.

    I’m shocked. Not at all.

  • There is nothing in my stance or response at all that implies
    ‘sex shaming.’ However, for someone to not be capable of using their powers responsibly is shameful.

    Your reasoning is absolutely pathetic, since it based on nothing but your self-serving emotions, and your position encourages others to be the same and to act irresponsibly and be pathetic.

    What you advocate is nothing less than encouraging persons to not use their powers and liberty responsibly.

    And as I indicated, your position will also justify that I and others should come to the rescue of and encourage fools who freely use their capital to finance risky loans that they know will likely fail since they can presume to recover their resources by robbing others with the power of government.

    I suppose you will now say that I am guilty of ‘economics shaming.’ That is how utterly silly your position is.

  • Yes it does matter. If homosexuals are unable to get something as simple as sex right, it would be imprudent to give them credence when they speak about something as complex as politics.

  • There is a theory that liberalism is a form of mental illness because those who adhere to it are unable to comprehend nor accept reality.

  • You’re right. If antigay, alleged heterosexuals are unable to get something as simple as sex right, it would be imprudent to give them credence on any other subject.

  • In my simple world, I pay my bills. If I make bad business decisions, I don’t expect other people to pay for them.

    But then, I’m a simple person.

  • Amen! it explains a lot. The stupid rarely escape that indoctrination (and the church bets on that fact).

  • That’s exactly what I say to conservative Christians who claim a religious right to discriminate on the basis of religious belief.

  • exactly what I say to so-called religious people whose religious belief “trumps” decency, intelligence, compassion, and morality.

  • Poor, silly Christian. The world has passed you by, and there you sit, waiting for your Christ to return for you. In another 2 generations, all the civilized Western societies will be virtually free of you as Scandinavia and Western Europe are today. But don’t worry — you’ll still have the poverty-stricken backwaters of Haiti and Uganda to keep producing believers. At least until a better standard of living arrives even on the shores of Africa and then there won’t be enough misery in the world to feed your religion.

  • When it comes to laws churches have no input except through its members as private citizens voting.

  • Of course the Church has input, or influence, because, as you said, the Church is made up of American citizens, which include the clergy, who have rights, duties, and responsibilities associated with that status; and, also as you said, the Church’s right to vote is limited to the people with the Church (the assembly of people) who do. I het all of that, but what’s the point?!

    Are you saying that if someone or something can’t vote that it has no rights under the law. If it is that’s interesting because there are plenty of things that can’t vote, including businesses, which have tremendous input and influence on laws and how they are made. That’s why there are so many lobbyists!!!

    Is it also possible that you’re saying it’s alright for businesses to have certain Constitutional protections and abilities to influence the law through their input but the same rights should not be afforded to Churches for some reason?

    I’m not really sure at all, so please clarify this if you’d be so kind.

  • After looking into your claim about the statement being a myth (because I just heard it recently and never verified it’s authenticity for myself) I must say that from what I’ve found so far it would be best to call it “unproven” but not a for sure falsehood or a myth. To be honest, I don’t know for sure and I will be careful not to use it again until I do. Given the strong and unyielding words she (Mother Theresa) delivered against abortion in front of Hilary Clinton and several others at the National Prayer Breakfast in 1994 I wouldn’t put it past her to make such a statement but without it being confirmed, it’s inappropriate of me to convey it. I apologize. Please forgive my ignorance about it.

    Having said that, I would like to ask why you think that relaying such a message, even one that could possibly have never been stated, is done “under the guise of being pro-life”. In other words, what has you thinking that pro-life advocates and supporters (like me) are not truly serious about the primary right of all our unalienable rights? The right to life – to stay alive and keep growing inside the womb before being born free and hopefully dying of natural causes.

  • Rather than entertain what appears to be a rather vicious and possibly malicious response from you, I’m going to respond to a few of the things that you’ve said and then pray that the Lord, who either you don’t believe in or understand which is a shame because He believes in you tremendously, that He will not only open your heart to Him and the Truth of His love, which “yes” does include suffering, but that He will also provide you with a measure of peace so that you may move forward with Him in a meaningful way.

    – There are too many possible variations of “non-viability”, not the least of which is a potential false positive indicator in the 1st trimester, but for you to make a statement which directly implies that a mother with a non-viable pregnancy is going to die that instant if the non-viable human being is not removed right away. It’s a real stretch! Furthermore, if you truly believe that Catholicism doesn’t take into consideration such potential incidences of medical triage then I would strongly suggest that you go the “National Catholic Bioethics Center” website and see for yourself where the Catholic Church stands on this, and many other, issues.

    – I never met Mother Theresa myself, and it’s likely that you never have either, so why are you saying that she was a vicious, nasty piece of work? She worked in the most horrible of conditions and helped countless people that many others, including myself (and maybe you), would never have the courage or stomach to help for more than a day to a couple of weeks. She dedicated her life to them, and loved them while doing it, so where are you getting vicious and nasty from?!

    – As for your ignorant and unenlightened attack on God for being (three) someone(s) who takes pleasure in suffering, nothing could be further from the Truth. The Truth; however, is that far too many people don’t understand that there is no real love without sacrifice or that all sacrifices include some kind of suffering (e.g. mental, emotional, and/or physical). Suffering helps us grow and mature to become more tomorrow than we are today. That’s why parents label certain stages of child rearing as growing pains. It’s painful to be told what you can and can’t do by the people who love you and know what’s better for you then you do, and as children we suffer through all of that until we become adults. However, when are we ever really adults in the eyes of God who always know what’s best for us better than we ever can? Well it helps to start by allowing Him into the center of our lives so that we can learn to love Him with our whole mind, heart, soul, and strength so He can take the training wheels off a bit and shed our desire for sinning that keeps us from loving Him and others as He loves us. If we want to end human suffering then all we need to do is start with ourselves. Stop sinning, and get everyone else to do the same!!! Sin brings spiritual death to the fore, and that death is the root of all suffering!

    – As for you cancer and dull needle comment, all I can say is “huh?”.

  • Well, let’s make this easy.

    Even the most staunch atheist historical scholars agree without any doubt whatsoever that Jesus was a real person who was crucified by the Romans, under the rule of Pilate, and was then laid to rest in a tomb which was later found to be empty. So, it’s without question that Jesus was a real person, who died by crucifixion, and was buried in a tomb that was later empty. Given that, you may speculate or question all you like about the how and why behind the empty tomb but you can’t deny His existence as a man! So what about His status as God and His divinity?

    Well, C.S. Lewis really said it best – “He’s either Lord, lunatic, or liar. Pick one, but there aren’t any other alternatives!”. If Jesus is who He said He is than He’s the Lord of lords, King of kings, and the Son of all Creation. If he’s not, then he’s either an insanely charismatic and influential crazy person (lunatic) who thinks he’s God or one of the most diabolically insidious and destructive liars of all-time (e.g. for brainwashing so many people into believing that he is the Son of God, and one in the same with Him, God).

  • Legend. A real man, a rabbi, who was turned into something else by people. Study other religions. Insightful to see just how inventive people have been.

  • There are many documented cases of Catholic hospitals giving substandard care to women having miscarriages, causing infertility or death of the mother. The case in Ireland is only the most famous. It also happens in America. One doctor in Arizona was excommunicated for saving the life of a woman because saving her life meant ending her pregnancy. In practice, if the fetus cannot survive, the mother is expected to die also. Pro life and all that.

    Yes, failing to remove a fetus being miscarried can and does cause fatal infection, and can directly cause the death of a living, breathing human being. Substandard medical care kills people.

    Google Mother Teresa. People in her care suffered grievously and needlessly, because she believed the suffering of the poor was pleasing to god. Yet when she became ill, she sought the best medical care in the US and Europe. Google it. The facts are readily available.

    Whether god, if it exists, takes pleasure in suffering is beside the point. This is what mother teresa believed and that is the god she worshipped. Her actions were driven by that belief.

    As for the nonsense you are trying to sell about how wonderful suffering is, spare me. You have bought into a portion of the same vicious teaching that produced mother teresa.

    Sin is something that displeases the sky daddy – gathering firewood on the wrong day, saying naughty words, unapproved use of genitals, etc. Suffering is not caused by sin.

    Some suffering just happens – disease, natural disasters, car wreaks. Some suffering is caused by people not caring about others – child rape, crime, etc. There is much humans can do to minimize suffering – drunk driving laws and improved auto standards, not giving child rapists access to more children, addressing climate change that will destroy the homes and livelihoods of hundreds of millions of people, etc.

    Wailing about sin won’t reduce suffering. Telling people they can’t marry a person they love because they have the wrong genitals won’t reduce suffering.

    Being a godless heathen, I don’t glory in suffering, mine or anyone else’s, and I think it is the responsibility of all to minimize suffering.

  • Trump is not good. Trump is a racist. He treats women as objects. He cheats at every possible opportunity including taxes, business dealings and wives. He incites violence against the weak. He makes every decision based on feeding his ego and trashing opponents. He disrespects every founding principle of our democracy – respect for the outcome of elections, freedom of the press, respect for the judicial branch, not threatening the life or freedom of political opponents, to name a few.

    Contrast that with Mrs. Clinton – like all politicians she’s bad at emails and she raises money. Be still my heart.

  • Trump makes decisions based on getting juicy headlines, feeding his ego and trashing opponents. He doesn’t even care about his own long term best interest, as evidenced by his treatment of the Khans.

    There is no part of that that acknowledges the existence of anti-abortion causes. And if evangelicals happen to piss him off one day, he will intentionally choose a SC nominee they will hate.

    On what possible basis can you believe that Trump will keep his word on anything? On what possible basis can you believe Trump cares about evangelicals past their immediate use of feeding his.ego?

  • It is evangelicals who have chosen a nominee who disrespects or is simply unaware of every basic Constitutional principle.

    It is Democrats who are defending and will defend freedom of religion conscience. This may mean dismantling some Christian privilege – only letting Christians pray before government meetings, for example – but true freedom will thrive.

  • Have you looked at anything Trump says or does? Do you think Trump is financially honest? Seriously? Mrs. Clinton released her tax returns and her foundation records are open. Trump hides his finances, cheats suppliers, and illegally uses his “charitable” foundation to settle his lawsuits and he does not even contribute to it. Apples and hand grenades.

  • It seems as if you’re saying now that it’s people, other than Jesus the rabbi, who are the liars and/or the lunatics? If that’s the case as you purport, which it isn’t, and I study other religions as you suggest, which I have, exactly what should I be looking for during that task? The lying and lunacy nature of human beings who have a need for God so they make one(s) up to suit that need, and their purposes?

    The two religions that come to mind with that are the Hindu religion and the religion of Islam. The Hindu has so many thousands of “Gods”, to fit any feeling or “whim” that a person may have, the Hindus can’t even keep them all straight. While the religion of Islam on the other hand is like a thief in the night who took various aspects of the Jewish religion, and perverted almost all of the Christian religion, to create a religion for themselves which they hoped would substantiate their existence (and ambitions) in the Middle East.

    It was the means by which they chose to validate themselves and, for many, to gain power and control over others in the process. It can not even be proven that Mohammad was a real person, and the so-called teachings of the Quran are a sham. Yes, I’ve read it from cover-to-cover. Can you say the same, with any religion, or are you just trying to stir up a challenge in order to avoid a real conversation?

    From your own assertion, looking for God would be folly because you don’t believe that God exists, so that leaves out studying almost all religions except for things like Thelema which want us to turn ourselves and our own will into the ultimate good (or God) in this life. Is something like that what you’re suggesting? Or perhaps you’re suggesting that atoms and their individual particles have a will of their own, or at least one very special one did before the Big Bang, and atoms used their collective will to transform themselves into something far greater (the expansive universe) and then work together again, by that same unitive will of the atom, to allow molecules to form and evolve into complex groups so intelligent biological life could exist as it does now.

    Atheism is a religion like many others, because it is based completely on faith but, unlike the real religions, atheism has no real evidence to support it’s theorized claims at all. Strong statements require strong evidence to support them, so what’s yours for supporting your position that God doesn’t exist?!

  • Linda, I am very much grounded in Truth (His) and compassion because those are essential components for me, or anyone, who works to consistently live a truly authentic Christ-centered life of love and concern for others. Having said that, in response to what you wrote, please know how honored and thankful I am that you shared your heart with me on this. Such love is truly beautiful to witness and I thank you.

    Having said that, I would like to ask why you believe and think the way that you do about the rest of what you’ve said? What do you mean by “a political android devoid of humanity”? What evidence do you have to support your accusations about fraud across the gambit and scope of this issue, and on the pro-life side none the less?

    I know the movement from the inside as well, and believe me I don’t like it when anyone is disingenuous or is lacking in integrity when it comes to presenting and reporting the absolute truth, which is why stings like the Obama rally I attended in 08′ are still fresh in my mind. Those “children”, young adults on campus, were mean and hateful people who were not interested in discussion on anything other than on what agreed with their feelings and beliefs, and Hilary is no different.

    She puts on a great front and talks out of both sides of her mouth like most high-profile politicians do on both sides, and then she fiercely supports the system that allows generations of defenseless human beings to be slaughtered while sleeping in the peace and comfort of their mother’s womb.

    Do I believe she (Hilary) wants that? Yes, I do! I believe that she and her ilk are so filled with anger and rage for getting the total, unadulterated equality of women (as they see it) in every way that they will stop at nothing to get what they want. And that includes killing human beings in the womb if that life is inconvenient for any reason, and then calling it “women’s rights and a war on women” to make it sound good and have people fight for it. What about the unborn human beings rights?!!! Oh ya, they don’t care about that or have any interest in giving it person status so this murderous nonsense would end and become illegal once and for all.

    How am I or anyone supposed to love and care for women and others if I’m not willing to defend and fight for the most defenseless and innocent of people?! I can’t, and neither can anyone else who wants to be a champion of truth and compassion. Truth and compassion apply to everyone, and they don’t take days or time off.

    It takes courage to love because it takes tremendous sacrifices as well, and once we get back to remembering that as a nation (and global “society”) of people the better off we’ll be.

    In Christ,
    Andrew

  • An important distinction must be made between personal sins and public policy. The reason Hillary is unacceptable is not because her personal life is so much more evil than others, but because she wishes to codify her evil on the whole country. I do not accept abortion, funding PP, homosexual marriage, forcing the legal acceptance of gender confusion, propaganda in public schools and loss of freedoms. I do not accept the concept of a global government. Hillary does, Trump does not.

    I would note that Trump has had his taxes audited for many years in a row and no illegalities have been found. If you have a problem with the tax laws change them.

  • I suggest you look at the public records a foundation must report each year to find your information. That wasn’t hard, was it?

  • To reiterate, I said that your attack on God was “ignorant (lacking in knowledge and understanding) and unenlightened (devoid of divine inspiration)” but I did not, and would not call you a “Godless heathen” as you recreated it to be.

    In fact, I understand and have far more compassion and tolerance for the God deniers and haters out there than I often do for my fellow “Christians” who purport to know, love, and serve the Lord but pervert Him and His Love by their actions, words, and lack of forgiveness, mercy, confession, contrition, and repentance far too often. They make it very difficult for people like yourself to seek Him out and truly challenge themselves to do the work required for Him to be revealed to you, and for that (and them) I’m truly sorry!

    You may even count me among that group, and that’s understandable, but I will tell you without any question that He created the entire universe and everything within it JUST FOR YOU! Beyond that, He also allowed Himself to take on human nature, except for sin, along with His divine nature, and be humiliated, degraded, scourged, and physically defeated (before being resurrected), without even the slightest of complaints. And He did all of that so YOU could be allowed to know Him and the infinite Love that He has for YOU!!! He did it all for you Lark62, and He is waiting to show you that when you are ready to meet Him where He’s at. In your heart!!!

    Of course substandard medical care does not help people to live life to the fullest, or at all, or always allow them to recover from their ailments. However, they would also die if they were to receive no medical care at all.

    I asked you to look into the NCBC website to see for yourself what the Catholic Churches position is on these issues is, and unless or until you do that (to get both sides to the issue instead of focusing solely on lamentable outcomes from certain cases) it will be difficult at best to continue a meaningfully charitable discussion with you. Empty, or one-sided, arguments aren’t helpful.

    We can hope for the best in all things, but to demand and expect the best (outcomes) in all cases and get angry when perfection isn’t achieved is unproductive. People of good will should work to recognize their mistakes when they happen and then work to lessen, and God willing eliminate, the possibility of them happening again. Such things may or may not always be achievable, because we do not live in a perfectly safe world that’s devoid of pain and suffering, but we will if we do the work to know, love, and serve Him so we can be with Him, and all the others who do, in Heaven. This is the testing and proving ground, it’s not the final destination.

    As for Mother Theresa, I looked into what you stated about her and was rather shocked to put it mildly at all of the reports regrading what you said. However, upon further investigation, looking for both secular and non-secular resources, I found it interesting that most of those reports didn’t come about until people became aware of her beatification and potential canonization (sainthood). I also found it interesting that the secular sources were demonizing a woman who was caring for people that either the hospitals did not want or who were unable or unwilling to help. Mother Theresa did the best with what she had, and she did so because she felt that she was caring for Jesus (our Lord and Savior) as He was dying a horrific death of the cross. It wasn’t because she reveled in or worshiped suffering!

    Her main purview was not to cure or save those people (so you are right there) but rather to provide them with a measure of comfort and dignity that was not being otherwise offered to them while there were in a state of being discarded from the hospitals and society. Her help was not ideal by any means, but it was better than the nothing being offered by everyone else.

    More people should work to take take the log(s) out of our own eye before looking at the speck in another’s.

    In Christ,
    Andrew

  • Thanks. I know you didn’t call me a godless heathen. I call myself that 😉 and I don’t consider it an a
    insult. It’s meant lighthearted. “Atheist” carries a lot of baggage so sometimes it’s easier to laugh.

    Thanks for doing research on Mother Teresa. Yes, most of the publicity occurred after she became famous because people were then interested. That’s how the human attention span works. But facts remain facts.

    Regardless of what is written on paper, in practice women having miscarriages often do not receive good care at catholic hospitals. In the last few months a woman having a miscarriage was turned away from a US catholic hospital. She was given no treatment.

    Another woman was scheduled for a C section. She had a medical condition (a brain tumor I think) that would have made another pregnancy fatal. The standard of care is that a woman needing her tubes tied have this done during a C section to avoid a second major surgery. The Catholic hospital refused. This left the woman a choice of travelling 150 miles to a non Catholic hospital to give birth under the care of doctors unfamiliar with her condition, or having a second surgery while recovering from one surgery and caring for a newborn.

    Pro life is so much more than anti abortion.

    Thanks.

  • With all sincerity, please don’t put yourself down by name-calling yourself. I know that you say that you don’t believe in God right now, and I’m truly sorry for that, but rather than (even lightheartedly) poking fun at yourself like the fATHER of lIES (i.e. the guy downstairs) would have you do, please do your best to acknowledge that you’re simply struggling to accept God because you don’t know Him right now.

    I really don’t believe that you would call yourself a Godless heathen if there wasn’t such a struggle within you and that struggle, believe it or not, is actually good! It shows that your heart-of-hearts knows something that you are not fully aware of yet. That God left His fingerprint on you when He created you in the womb.

    Having said that, I would like to let you know that I am now looking into the other points you raised about substandard care and the death of the woman in Ireland. On the substandard care issue, it seems fairly obvious right now that many of the assertions to those complaints stem from the diametrically opposed views on what true care for BOTH the mother and child should or should not be. To put it another way, it seems as if the people arguing that Catholic Hospitals are providing substandard “reproductive care” to women, which is very broad-based in its scope, are really complaining about the fact that Catholic Hospitals do not and will not work under the same guidelines as non-Catholic Hospitals. Those hospitals have a Catholic identity that is inextricably interwoven into the care that they either will or will not provide and knowing that, people who have a problem with the Catholic position on reproductive care should not use those hospitals.

    From all of that, this seems so far to be an issue of people wanting to get whatever they want from anybody they want, whether or not those “anybodies” have legally protected conscience objections or not. If the secular world doesn’t want the Catholic Church or any other religion to force or impose their religious beliefs onto them, then why should it be alright for people who don’t agree with the Catholic Church or other religions to try and do the same to us?! It’s not!!!

    Catholicism maintains a large proportion of the hospitals in the United States, so I see how this can be a materially real issue for people who do not share the faith but secularists and marginal believers must recognize that “hospitals” were started by Christians and we have nothing but the utmost respect for all life, mother, child, and family (which includes fathers), at all stages of it. Death is not something we fear but rather embrace when the time comes on its own, but we certainly don’t consider it to be a form of “care” for anyone when it comes to their health or reproduction. There isn’t any reproduction where life doesn’t exist, and there is nothing caring about choosing (physical) death over life.

    I’ll get back to you again on the Ireland case after I learn more about it.

    In Christ,
    Andrew

  • Here’s what I don’t get from what I’m reading now on the Arizona case.

    According to the report, the pregnant mother had “pulmonary hypertension” which is absolutely incurable. The symptoms may be treated for a time, or severely lessened with a lung transplant, but the disease itself isn’t reversible. Given that, why wouldn’t everything possible be done to deliver the unborn baby as safely as possible and then do all that can be done afterwards to care for the mother?

    It seems like in this case, the life of a terminally ill patient was chosen over the life of an otherwise healthy unborn child; and that killing that child would do little, if anything, to improve or save the life of his or her mother. So again, I don’t get it! How does killing that child help to save the mother’s already endangered life?!

  • Her name was Savita Halappanavar. She was not catholic, yet she died needlessly of septicemia and multiple organ failure because doctors would not perform an abortion while the fetus, which could not survive, continued to have a heart beat.

    Thanks for your willingness to seek out facts. We are all better off when we base decisions on facts, even though we come to different conclusions on other matters.

    I was a Christian for over 30 years. I am comfortable with my conclusions about the accuracy of christianity. I read the bible and memorized good chunks of it. I know what Christianity is about. So we will just have to agree to disagree. I am glad you have comfort and peace in your beliefs, but I do not share them.

    And until Christians as a group care about the lives of people who are already here, I give no credence to any claims of pro life.

    Peace.

  • People make up gods as explanations for things they don’t have answers to. There are thousands of gods in many many many many many more religions than just Hinduism, throughout human history. You really have to open your eyes… this is what people do, what they’ve done for millennia.

  • Thank you for this. I found the same information from your 1st paragraph so far as well. However, I intend on doing a little more research into this, especially on the aspects of septicemia and related organ failure during pregnancy (in general), before weighing in on this further. That make take me a little time though, because I have to leave for Mass now.

    Thank you again for the conversation, I will respond again somewhat soon.

  • Yes, there are definitely some people who do just that, while there are many others who ignore historical facts and obvious realities in order to substantiate their own self-centered beliefs and ideals, and there are yet others still who strive and struggle to come to and accept the Truth that’s before them. Lastly, there are those who have allowed the Truth to find them, and are blessed with it by their acceptance of it to the best of their ability (i.e. faithfully living it out).

    Pretending that God doesn’t exist and that the vastly rich diversity and complexity of Creation and it’s beautiful order is some sort of fortunate evolutionary accident is a blindness that many eyes need to be opened to! My eyes are not those at all, but they haven’t been opened for so long that I’ve forgotten how miserable life was when they were gleefully shut out of anger and pride.

    May your eyes, and heart, be opened as well!

  • “When you cast your ballots for this person or for that, remember your decisions and opinions follow you into eternity. Therefore, be certain your choices reflect Holy Love. You must not concede on any issue – the right to life, the embrace of the Constitution, affordable healthcare or the honesty of the candidates themselves. To concede on one issue is to compromise on them all.”

    “The candidates for presidency could not be more diametrically opposed. The future of your nation and of the world depends upon the outcome of this election. Choose according to Holy Love.”

    “Do not be afraid of opposition to your choices as they affect you. Be cautious of such opposition as it affects the heart of the world. The more liberal the conscience of the world, the farther it is from the Will of God. An amoral society, full of collusion and corruption, does not bode well for a nation that seeks the respect of other nations or that should be a world power.”

    “I would like to tell you everything is straightforward and honest, as it should be, in this election, but it is not so. Pray that cyber piracy is uncovered and voter fraud remedied. TRUMP FOR PRESIDENT!

  • Linda, thank you very much for all that you’ve said, because I can tell that you are truly sincere and heartfelt in your love and compassion for the most vulnerable among us. However, please do not assume that I am pro-Trump or that I will be voting for him. I will not!

    I made the mistake after my reversion to the faith (i.e. after coming back from falling away hard in my young adult life) of voting for Obama the first time because I truly thought that he would be good for the soul and the unity of our country. I was quickly, and often, proved wrong and then I was faced in the next election with what we are faced with now.

    Two “primary” candidates who contribute greatly to the divisions and lamentable hatreds that divide us because they are more interested in themselves than they are in protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States, and doing all that they can to make sure (in the proper way) that it’s as Christ and Gospel-centered as possible in what it hopes to do. All of our laws are based on morality, whether people want to believe that or not, and they can continue to be a model of virtue and moral lawfulness whether they take on the moniker of any particular religion or not.

    With that being said, I finally did the tremendously difficult soul digging and restructuring needed to prepare myself for the upcoming election on Tuesday. That required me to allow the Lord to challenge the most ardent societal beliefs when it comes to voting in America. Namely that we MUST vote and that we MUST vote for someone who has the best chance of winning, after deciding who best aligns with both His and the ideals of America.

    When I did that work with Him, He finally brought me to the undeniable conclusion that voting for the lesser of any evil is still voting for evil and I can not do that while calling Him my Lord and Savior. As such He prompted me to challenge myself to either not vote or to find someone else, other than the so-called “top two” to vote for. In so doing, the only candidate that doesn’t violate ANY essentially non-negotiable issues for people of faith is Darrell Castle of the Constitution Party.

    He’s an ardent Christian who has no problem talking about God, and he’s also been a lawyer whose has served this country in the military as well. He’s a Catholic and Christian dream and I will be voting for him on Tuesday. The only other candidate that measured up was the person from the Solidarity Party be he is not on the ballot in my state.

    As a truly faithful Christian who loves the Lord first and foremost above all others, I can not in good conscience vote for either candidate who advocates and/or supports evil/sinful practices without any guilt or remorse. No one can do, or support, evil in the hope that good will come from it.

    Hilary’s evil/sinful faults are too plentiful to list and Mr. Trump has some serious flaws as well, albeit not nearly as egregious, but not the least of which is his open support for torture, including for non-combatants. That’s not pro-life from womb to tomb, and it not only goes against the Catholic Catechism but the Constitution as well. I will not vote for him!!!

  • I’ve been digging and reading, and digging and reading, and I can’t for the life of me find any medical research to support the idea that performing an abortion on a pregnant woman with sepsis will help her in any way. I have found countless medical articles supporting the fact that performing an abortion increases the possibility of getting sepsis, but nothing to the contrary. They’re called septic abortions, which are fairly common (about 14%) overall.

    Also, everything that I’ve been reading says that septic pregnancies have been on the rise worldwide over the past few years and the medical community seems rather dumbfounded as to why, or how to treat it. They all say catch it early and do all that you can to get it under control with antibiotics and such-and-such, but I’ve seen absolutely nothing to support the claim that performing an abortion would lessen or remove the septicemia. In somewhat rare cases, and I say “somewhat” because it’s over 5%, the onset of the septicemia is so fast that the mother often dies, and sometimes the baby as well depending on it’s gestational age and related fetal status (viability). I also read that this is more common in first time mothers, of which Savita Halappanavar was.

    Given everything that I’ve found, or more accurately didn’t find to support the claim that performing an abortion would’ve helped her at all, I must sadly say that this may well be yet another case of people being so grief stricken by their loss(es), both mother and child, that they are lashing out out at the hospital for not honoring their request to perform an abortion and using that as their grounds to try and justify their medically unsubstantiated claim that not doing so killed the mother. Sepsis killed the mother, not the hospital, and abortion doesn’t appear to have anyway of changing that.

    Regardless, it is a tragedy and I hope that both Savita and her child are in the loving care of the Lord in Heaven.

    In Christ,
    Andrew

  • Oh I am not blaming other people, just pointing out their shortcomings. You folks haul accusations without evidence.

  • I couldn’t have summed up the trump campaign, its supporters and Catholicism any better myself. Well done!

  • Yes, those are the sources I consulted. Seems like you know how to find stuff, now you should actually read it!

  • “Real love does not include allowing people to do whatever they want, or making it easy for them to make really bad choices!”

    So a dictator really loves his people when he forces them to do as he pleases. When one trespasses upon the life of others in an unwanted and unwarranted way, they are not expressing love. They are expressing arrogance, self-righteousness and narcissism. Calling it “real love” is insulting to the term.

  • Except in places where they teach abstinence only in schools and THE MOST EFFECTIVE birth control is difficult to obtain.

  • So in addition to opposing access to contraception and abortion, you oppose the notion that poor families should be able to avoid starvation and homelessness.

  • You, in your ignorance, have never heard of the principle of subsidiarity and what it means or implies.

    Nor have you read carefully what was said in the above exchanges.

    Since when does insisting upon personal responsibility and limiting expansive, inefficient, corrupted government equated with implying that ‘poor’ should not have access to anything?

    If you knew anything about how economics work, you might eventually come to realize that it is by increasing wealth by diminishing oppressive government that displaces autonomy and creativity at all levels that the numbers of relative poor are lessened.

    Instead, what you seem to advocate is responsible for virtually every closed factory, every person without employment, and every decayed inner city that presently exists in these United States.

  • “Since when does insisting upon personal responsibility and limiting
    expansive, inefficient, corrupted government equated with implying that
    ‘poor’ should not have access to anything?”

    You are outright they should not have easy access to contraception simply because you want to feel morally superior to those who voice such a need. Those government programs which you claim without any factual support to be destroying the inner cities are primarily responsible for keeping the living conditions of the poor from becoming horrific. You made it clear you are definitely against public assistance in that respect.

    Talk of “personal responsibility” is simply taking a sanctimonious approach to ignoring a clear and obvious problem existing that you don’t want to acknowledge. Willful ignorance on your part. Saying that women who have unwanted pregnancies are somehow “irresponsible” does not change the fact that they exist, unwanted pregnancies pose a problem for society and exist in great enough numbers to warrant government action.

    “If you knew anything about how economics work, you might eventually come
    to realize that it is by increasing wealth by diminishing oppressive
    government that displaces autonomy and creativity at all levels that the
    numbers of relative poor are lessened.”

    No, that is the line of voodoo economics of supply side theories. After 30 years of implementation, they have degraded and undermined the economic stability of the poor, working class and middle class. You are simply parroting a party line that was discredited a long time ago. Increasing the wealth of the wealthy does not translate to improved conditions for all. Far from it. It erodes those structures which protect the middle and working classes. It keeps the government from being adequately funded and regulations ineffective.

    “The Job creators” you extol have a vested interest in increasing economic inequality and destroying the middle class as a way to increase profits. Its quite telling that the states run by Tea Party functionaries, with their disdain for regulations and public assistance have some of the worst standards of living in the country for those who work for a living. You advocate doing nothing of value to those who are poor or work for a living because you want to feel morally superior.

  • Sure, and Detroit, Baltimore, East St. Louis, and lots of other cities subjected to your Democratic party solutions for the last 50 or so years are all beautiful, humane, thriving urban centers.

    You need to get out of your shell and try to understand reality on its own terms and not through the lens of a contrived ideology that only gives lip service to helping the many, but that really only benefits a relative few that includes everyone in the Uni-Party, mega-finance, and aspiring globalist oligarchs.

    Incidentally, it’s you who have the blind assumption that you and those with whom you agree alone are morally superior, so superior that ordinary folks aren’t even capable of exercising their liberty and being decent and generous to others without the boot of expansive, hypocritical, wasteful government on their necks.

  • Get your facts straight. Detroit are Baltimore are in states with a Republican governor. Missouri elected a Democrat only after years of being fed up with Republicans in charge. Texas, that Libertarian, regulation free, gun toting paradise runs, around the bottom for quality of life issues in comparison to states like New York, California and Massachusetts.

    30 years of supply side economics dominating government policy and those places have gotten even worse. Not only for inner cities but for the middle class in the suburbs. People earn less for more hours, fewer benefits and have greater difficulties with the benchmarks of middle class existence (college education, home ownership, access to healthcare, ability to generate wealth through securities and real estate investment).

    “it’s you who have the blind assumption that you and those with whom you agree alone are morally superior”

    I don’t know where you get any of that from my posts. But it is clear you are going off of a post-factual argument for the most part.

  • I do have the facts straight. You are ignorant of history.

    So-called ‘supply side economícs’ in no way has dominated government policy at all.

    What has dominated is corrupt and self-serving Uni-Party cronyism always favoring mega-financial institutions, increasing government bureaucrats and bureaucracies, and globalist internationalist plutocrats who seek to undermine national sovereignty, with all of the foregoing aspiring to be the dominant oligarchs over the majority in as many regions of the world as possible.

    If you think having a Republican governor has anything to do with what I have been speaking of, your blindness is total.

    But your main problem is that you have no comprehension as to either how a middle class comes to exist or much less how wealth is created.

    Government creates neither, but only can promote conditions for their thriving by selecting the proper minimal laws to permit such.

    That is why you haven’t a single clue as to why people must work more hours to survive, why college education, home ownership, healthcare, are inflated in their costs.

    Try to educate yourself about these matters by going onto Google and putting in the words:

    Welfare State
    Destruction
    Family
    Economy

    After you read a some of the many readily available intelligently composed, analytically rigorous, and accurate considerations of actual historical data, perhaps you will begin to have some understanding of the true causes of the problems you mention.

    Even so, neither I, nor likely anyone else, likely can understand what you mean by a ‘post-factual argument’.

  • “So-called ‘supply side economícs’ in no way has dominated government policy at all.”

    Are you kidding me?! The whole idea that the wealthy and corporations do not owe the public a fair share of taxes has been dominating economic policy since 1980. That avoiding taxation for them allegedly creates jobs for the rest of us. That is holy scripture, chapter and verse for the Republicans since Reagan.

    “What has dominated is corrupt and self-serving Uni-Party cronyism always
    favoring mega-financial institutions, increasing government bureaucrats
    and bureaucracies, and globalist internationalist plutocrats who seek
    to undermine national sovereignty, with all of the foregoing aspiring to
    be the dominant oligarchs over the majority in as many regions of the
    world as possible.”

    That is a mighty big word salad which incorporates numerous contradictory premises and actions. Plutocrats don’t want increased bureaucracy they want deregulation. Regulation favors the middle and working classes. As do public assistance, and taxation progressive policies.

    I am just going to leave “the globalist internationalist portion” alone. That crosses over into major nutball/conspiracy theory territory that I will not touch with a 10′ pole.

    “Even so, neither I, nor likely anyone else, likely can understand what you mean by a ‘post-factual argument’.”

    🙂

  • In the first part of what I said, which you quoted, I was referring to parents, guardians, and adults (not dictators) who are in the care of children.

    Such children are not in any position of authority or responsibility to make and live out all of their own decisions, but that is not the same for people who are legally adults and no longer “children” by government standards. Would you call any of those people that I mentioned dictators?! If you would, then you have a great to learn and a lot of growing up to do.

    Once someone legally becomes an adult, then the second part of what I said comes into play. The people in power, with given authority and responsibility for others, should not make it easy for anyone of adult age to make bad choices. For example, legislators may not be able to stop everyone from doing drugs that can be very harmful to the human body and create addictions that can destroy them but they can create laws against such actions to deter people from such practices and they can create programs to help educate them from choosing to do drugs and/or recovering from them if they do.

    That’s how civil societies who understand the concept of love and responsibility work, They aren’t living out the practice of Thelema where “Do as thou whilst is the whole of the law”.

  • First of all, you again confirm that you deliberately wish to ignore (willful ignorance, perhaps) the facts.

    “America’s political leadership is finally waking up to the fact that the tax rates businesses face in the U.S. are way out of step with our major economic competitors. Last year, for example, Ways and Means Chairman Charles Rangel proposed cutting the federal corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 30.5 percent. While a 5 percentage point cut in the federal corporate tax rate may sound significant, it may not be sufficient to meaningfully improve the competitiveness of the United States.

    Currently, the average combined federal and state corporate tax rate in the U.S. is 39.3 percent, second among OECD countries to Japan’s combined rate of 39.5 percent. Lowering the federal rate to 30.5 percent would only lower the U.S.’s ranking to fifth highest among industrialized countries.”

    And no, you are wrongly confounding what is signified by ‘plutocrats’ who aspire to have political influence, who do not amass their great wealth from producing real products in market competition, but rather who aspire to manipulate social and governmental systems in order to increase their wealth through financial institutions, etc., with those who are merely wealthy or inherit wealth and live, for the most part, as private citizens.

    For example, neither Trump nor any who develop and compete in the market are plutocrats in the main if one takes the term in the former sense.

    A Soros, however, and those who would support him and his aspirations are (e.g. H. and B. Clinton, and lots of their cronies; along with not a few Republicans in Congress). These abuse public offices and institutions for private gain.

    And your fear of even examining the links between globalist internationalist, mega-financial influences is unfortunate.
    Until you address that, you won’t comprehend currency manipulations, bail-outs of mega-financial institutions at the average taxpaying citizen’s expense, and a lot of other things that undermine national and local economies, as well as conditions for stable families.

    You really need to do the research and reflection I suggested. You would find it very sobering.

  • You parrot the supply side economics line and claim it isn’t a significant part of us economic policy? Good grief. You also use a singular and self serving definition of plutocrat. Maybe oligarch is more to your liking? But what you are describing is every major wealthy actor, including Trump. They all benefit from gaming the system of government bureaucracy.

    The rest of your post is conspiracy theory mongering. More assumption and speculation than clear facts. I am not going down that rabbit hole of delusion and inference.

  • You do not really want to get out of your darkened closet of delusion and ideological blindness.

    You presume that you and your ideological filter about political reality gives you superior moral integrity.

    However, it is just the things you advocate that a vast, vast majority of Americans reject.

    The ones who ‘game the system’ are the very persons you so faithfully defend, and likely you are one of their beneficiaries.

    But what you advocate is about to come to its demise.
    Hopefully, you will purge yourself of your defense of those self-serving parasites who speak of themselves as the unique elite who alone truly advocate charity and care for the poor and others, but who really only serve themselves and accrue tremendous wealth at the expense of the common good and the average citizens.

    I choose to stand on the side of the citizens who are victimized by what you advocate.

    May you eventually be humble enough to really read the words written and spoken by others and consider them carefully.

  • That is a load of BS. You were looking for some excuse for committing trespass upon the lives of others using self righteousness. Way to infantilize people and display the narcissism so associated with Christian views as how others must live.

    And no drug use is not the criminal act. It’s the drug trade which is. People have a right to control their own bodies. All other rights flow from there. To attack autonomy is to declare one property of the state in the worst possible way.

    You are neither responsible nor have any business intruding upon the personal and intimate decisions of a woman or her pregnancy.

    You do not act out of love, you act out of arrogance and self importance. You don’t respect others and demand that do as you command. As if being self righteous entitles you to power over others.

    You want a say in decisions concerning a pregnancy, get pregnant.

  • “I choose to stand on the side of the citizens who are victimized by what you advocate.”

    People victimized by political empowerment, decent wages, a quality of life comparable to the rest of the developed world, working infrastructure, living wages, safe environment, public education, economic transparency and civil liberties?

    OK. Whatever.

    You pretty much lost any semblance of credibility by saying Trump competes in the market. He doesn’t. He fails constantly and defrauded everyone associated with him. If not for gaming the system, violating laws and a weak regulatory environment, he would be a pauper.

  • Sure, and your gratuitous ‘ad hominems’ are really valid reasoning along with your hasty inductions based on erroneous assumptions serving as premises.
    Whatever…

  • No BS here, and most certainly no insincerity either. I also have no interest in committing aggressive trespass against others, which includes ignoring or violating their rights, but I would highly appreciate it if others would afford me, and those like me, the same courtesy and respect. Not forcing us to participate in things that are insidiously harmful to us and everyone else!

    As for your comment about drug use not being a criminal act, there are a lot of “depends on …” with that statement which is why many citizens and politicians on both sides of the aisle are advocating for decriminalization, but not necessarily legalization. Drug abuse and misuse not only hurts the person who is potentially no longer in control of their body, but it also hurts all others who are caught in the wake of its destruction. Drug abuse, just like abortion, destroys lives.

    As for bringing life into this world, or destroying it through the murder of the helplessly unborn, that certainly is a personally intimate decision for the mother involved but it is one that’s not solely hers. It’s personally intimate for everyone else also.

    It not only hurts her when she does it, mentally, emotionally, and physically, it also hurts others close to her and all those who are caught in the wake of its destruction.

    Women may have the legal right to do it right now but that doesn’t mean she’s right in doing so. Murder, or killing the innocent, is never justified, nor is any women pursuing the false idea that it’s just her body that she’s dealing with. When pregnant, she is now responsible for two bodies (hers and her growing baby) and being so callous and cruel as to kill the life of the defenseless human growing inside her is child abuse and neglect at it’s worst!

    To add insult to injury with this, there is NEVER any mention of the fact that the new (human) body inside of her only came about because of the contribution of another. Half of the biological material that contributed to that new life being created is not hers, so why should she be allowed to decide, like the tyrannical dictator that you mentioned, what happens with a life that doesn’t completely belong to her and that she did not create on her own? In other words, if the father desperately wants to have the child that he helped create then why should the women be the only voice for whether or not it lives or dies. Oh right, it’s her body, not two bodies, and women, as well as anyone, should be able to do what they want with their bodies.

    Would you use that same argument to defend a rapist who says that he or she did it because that’s what they want to do with their body?! I think not!!!

    As for your assertion that all other rights flow from being able to control your own body, then how do you square that with an unborn child not being able to control their own body?! You can’t!!! Which is why we must protect them until they are able to protect themselves.

    The right to life is the fundamental or supreme right from which all other rights flow, because without life rights mean nothing, because that’s exactly what will exist! Nothing!!!

  • The only one slinging insults and as hominems is you. I have corrected several factual errors you posed and stated my own position.

    Whatevs

  • Drug use or abuse is still not a criminal act, your analogy fails on the basis of misrepresenting the conditions

    You have no regards for the lives of decisions of women unless they do as you say. A fetus is not a person, nor has individual rights. One had to be born for that. It may be two beings, but they are in one body and only the mother has any free will of their own. Until you can separate a fetus from its mother, there is no necessity to consider anyone but the mother.

    At no point do you, the government or anyone else have a say in whether the pregnancy continues. It is the mother and only the mother who does. You may not like her decisions, but it isn’t for your approval.

    Your only reference to the woman is as an incubator and someone who you think must bend to your will.

    I don’t have to care how much you allegedly love and appreciate a fetus. As long as it lives in its mother, and can’t get out, it is always her choice here. That is the sad truth if human reproduction.

    A fetus is not the equivalent of analogous to a born person in any way.

  • Prove there’s no Zeus. You can’t because it’s an absurd position. You can believe in any fairy tales you want dearie, but there are thousands to choose from and other people believe different ones than you do.

  • You believe things that are historical that are merely religious beliefs. The Bible is not a history book.

  • With any luck the Republicans will have a sane, qualified sounding candidate in 2020. I honestly miss sane Republicans.

  • I didn’t realize you had that much nostalgia for Reagan or at least Eisenhower.

    But likely in 2020 D.J. Trump will entering his second term.

    Best regards . . . and when D.J. wins and brings about all the things you want corrected for ordinary folks, but using different tactics than you anticipated during the next few years, you can always send me an email sometime and say ‘you told me so!’

  • When you, Andrew, become pregnant, then, and only then, will the choice of keeping or terminating a pregnancy be your choice. A man may want to impregnate a woman, but who does the lion’s share of raising that child? It is the woman, in 90% of the time.

  • Not all areas have PP clinics, and many such clinics, in areas that had them, have been closed by the right wing ideologues.

  • You do like to see yourself in print, don’t you?
    Believe what you choose to believe, but do not force your beliefs upon others.

  • 2020 would be a bit like turning the Titanic just as the iceberg began to graze the hull. At best the party will split, or a new one will have to form that will contain the sane Republicans. The crazy ones they enticed to take over the party over the last 8 years are not going to let go easily.

  • Had an abortion been performed sooner, the sepsis would never have occurred. Think about that, please.

  • Andrew, whatever religion makes you a better person, is the religion for you, however, you do not have the right to beat people over the head to force them to believe as you do, as people who differ from your way of thought or belief, are, also, very good people.

  • Hey I voted for at least one Bush, possibly two, but I won’t admit to that in public. 🙂

    Trump will go from losing the election back to his usual grifting. He will probably make a go at media production (and fail spectacularly, leaving defrauded investors all over the place). Maybe he will have a few more ghost written books out and go on the lecture circuit.

    Its been a wild ride. An election so sleazy it conjures up the misdeeds of the 19th Century. 🙂

  • – Drug possession is a crime in many states, and many people are doing sentences for that, which is why so many people are trying to decriminalize the mandatory minimum sentences for possessing them. That also includes using them and abusing them, because no one can do either of those things if they don’t possess them.

    – I have tremendous love and respect for the lives of women, and their unborn children, even if they make the lamentably egregious decision to commit to the murder of their child. It may be legal by our stupid law, which by the way was created by some weird construct of a person’s right to privacy, but it most certainly isn’t legal by God’s law. Thou shall not kill means that thou shall not murder, and murder applies to killing the innocent. No one is more innocent than a growing human baby inside the “safety” of his or her mother’s womb. The Catholic Church defends and supports the absolute Truth of God’s law on that, and also defends and supports His commands for us to lovingly forgive and be merciful to those who break it. That is why the Church forbids refusing absolution to any mother who comes to confession with a contrite heart for the sin that she has committed against God and her child. His will is that we aspire to fostering His will, and aspire to make it our own.

    – As for your comment about free-will you are incorrect about that, because the people who choose or don’t choose to help a woman commit murder against the unborn have free-will also. They have the free-will to either participate in that injustice or to say “no, I’m not doing that”. But if you and those who think like you have your way, then you will be more than happy to force your will upon us as you claim we are trying to do against you. I have no interest whatsoever in forcing a woman or women not to have abortions, but I am for not making it easy, paid for by everyone else, or having it remain legal as if there’s nothing wrong with it at all. Once the US wakes up from the lunacy of mass murder that we’ve been perpetuating against generations of 60+ million people then both women and men will have to rethink their cavalier attitudes towards unplanned and/or unwanted pregnancy. Sex is not meant for recreation, its meant for unitive love and procreation, but when people ignore that and trivialize it that doesn’t mean the outcomes should be dismissed or turned into something violently demonstrable like murder!!!

    – The government, and the people who comprise it, can and most certainly do have a say as to when a pregnancy must continue, and that is already currently written into the abortion law. The dividing line is somewhere around the mid to late 20 week mark, with few exceptions. That line, and those exceptions, have been there since the beginning, as has the Hyde Amendment which states that no government money shall be used to pay for abortions whatsoever. However, the Obama administration, and the Clinton camp, do everything in their power that they can to rewrite the (simple) meanings of many terms (words and phrases) so that they can play verbal gymnastics to rewrite the law to suit their purposes, instead of working their purposes under the construct of the law. Not only do Hilary and Obama think that they can rewrite whatever they want to suit their purposes, but they think that everyone else should realign their beliefs to match their purposes. That’s dictatorship at it’s tyrannical worst!!!

    – No! A mother is not simply some sort of incubator a you try to assert with projection onto me. She is a beautiful creation of God, who shares in His divine image, and has the unique gift of being able to share in the creation of new life with Him (through pregnancy). That is a tremendous gift, and one that I do not want or desire because it’s not meant for me as a man, but it is one that comes with a tremendous responsibility for both sexes involved and it should not be taken lightly. The new life that is created within her when a man and woman come together, hopefully in unitive love during sacramental marriage as intended rather than out of recreation or violence as not intended, is one that can not survive on its own outside the womb, any more than you or I do. Do you live alone aprt from all people and the products they produce, and do you provide for all of your own needs apart from any help whatsoever? Of course not, because no one on this planet could ever survive on their own without the help, love, and support of others. So for you to say that a growing baby in the womb has no rights for that reason is nonsense. Do you feel the same way about children, the elderly, the poor, and/or the homeless who can not support themselves or survive on their own either?! I don’t, and the Church certainly doesn’t, so please don’t utter such nonsense!!!

    – From everything that you’ve said, as well as the way you’ve said it, I seems fairly obvious that you are the one who cares very little for any of the people in question. You appear to have a mindset that defines caring as doing whatever one wants and I liken that to a parent who sets no limits or rules on their child at all. After all, why should a parent care if their child runs out to play in the middle of traffic if that’s what they want to do, or goes and plays around with drugs, sex, or anything else for that matter if it makes them feel good?! Caring and love is why! Even God places limits on His own power because He loves us. The only one who doesn’t is the gUY downstairs, because hE’S to prideful and self-indulgent to accept authority or paternal care from anyone.

    – Of course a fetus isn’t equivalent to a born person. He or she is weaker and far more vulnerable, which is why they should be treated with the utmost respect and care!

    May God open your eyes and heart to Him and His love!!!

  • No, I believe that the books of the Bible which are historical are exactly that, historical! The books of the Bible contain multiple literary genres, including historical, which is why the “book” of the Bible is more accurately defined as a library of books than simply a book.

    Without doing the work required for you to verify that for yourself, I will say that there are many books of the New Testament alone that are substantiated by writings of secular (non-believing) authors and by archeological finds as well. It’s not difficult to find that, or corroborate it from multiple (secular and non-secular) sources. So if you’re willing to look into that for the purposes of challenging your current knowledge and understanding on the subject then I would encourage you to do so.

  • Drug possession is not drug use. As I said, the drug trade is what is being illegalized. Being high is not a crime unless you are behind the wheel or doing something anti-social in public. So no your analogy is still terrible. You respect women but not to the point where you want them to act as human beings with their own lives and personal issues which are not subject to your opinion or approval. You don’t respect them at all as people. You consider them property for you to command.

    “but it most certainly isn’t legal by God’s law”

    Religious freedom means I never have to give a damn what you or anyone else thinks is God’s law. You are entitled to your opinion on the subject, nobody else has to do anything about it.

    Abortion is not murder. One has to be born to be murdered.

    “The government, and the people who comprise it, can and most certainly do have a say as to when a pregnancy must continue, and that is already currently written into the abortion law. The dividing line is somewhere around the mid to late 20 week mark, with few exceptions. ”

    Actually the dividing line is based on viability of the fetus. Its ability to live outside the womb. Late term abortions btw are not only rare, but invariably done for medical reasons. At no point should women’s healthcare choices be controlled by control freak laypeople. It is the province of the medical profession, not our laws.

    How about this, when you get pregnant, you will be entitled to make choices concerning it. Until then, it is none of your business, it never will be.

    “I seems fairly obvious that you are the one who cares very little for any of the people in question. ”

    That is ironic, since I value people to make their own choices and decisions concerning their bodies and lives, while you think they should simply do as you say. If you can’t value people to live their own lives, you don’t value people at all.

    “You appear to have a mindset that defines caring as doing whatever one wants and I liken that to a parent who sets no limits or rules on their child at all.”

    Thank you for showing how arrogant and narcissistic your position is. Somehow all women are children to you, yours to command. They are not adults with lives of their own. They must answer to you like a parent. Simply, no. You are not the guardian for women and their fetuses. You are simply someone who has no sense of personal boundaries, no sense of propriety. Your position is rather sociopathic. That the basics of being a person are somehow subject to your whims. There is nothing moral there.

    A fetus can’t be protected at the expense of its mother. There is nothing moral about such a position. There is nothing rational about such a position. You do not want to treat women as people.

    Bless your heart. I will pray that you find wisdom and knowledge that is needed.

  • Sorry but just because some things that actually were real made it into a book about things that largely aren’t, doesn’t prove anything. Every single religion has the same exact thing… you have to open your eyes and see how many religions there are and the stories they also tell, which also contain grains of truth.

  • In loving, committed marriages, where new life is intended by God, both parents do the ion’s share of child raising without question, but in the cases where the child is not so fortunate, the situations vary greatly.

    In cases where the father and mother don’t live together and do or don’t share custody of that child then both parents still contribute to the well being of the child in one way or another. The mother’s often get primary or majority custody, while the fathers either get partial/shared or none, but the father’s still contribute financially (if able) and if not, the state (which is everyone else) steps in to one degree of another.

    I’ve personally known fathers who are more than willing to completely share the responsibility (both personally and financially) of lovingly raising their child, as any well-meaning father would, but the mother and the courts would not allow him to do so. On the other hand, I’ve also known fathers who are not as interested in being involved, but still contribute to their child’s upbringing. Furthermore, I’ve also known women who intentionally tried to get pregnant by men so they could either get money from them or the state to continue living as work free of a life as possible. There are women and men who are parents that live out vastly different roles in this area but given how the system favors women over men in almost every regard, people hear very little about the honorable and loving men who are fathers in this world today.

    We may not be able to carry a child in the womb we don’t have, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of men who don’t want to love and care for their children just as much, if not more, as women do.

    If/when we are given the chance to do that as men, not boys having sex as teens or as young “adult” males who have no more clue or concept about raising a child than young “adult” females do, we will surprise you every time. It would also help if those girls and women would help those boys and men to learn how to become better parents instead of belittling and running them down for their short-comings. We are all born to become parents, but we have to become pretty well-formed and mature before we do in order for us, as either men or women, to do so well. That’s why recreational or unenlightened “loving” sex before being united through the sacrament of marriage is not what God wants from us.

    Children need and deserve two parents who love them, and who love each other more than they love themselves, and I don’t need a female reproductive system to understand or appreciate that as a man. I also don’t need a female doctor to have a prostate in order for me to accept her advice on how to treat mine if it goes awry.

    Lastly, with all of the career and super-moms burgeoning today, more-and-more men are happily doing far more child raising then some of the women are, so I wouldn’t be so quick to stand behind what’s quickly becoming an outdated argument.

  • I responded to another poster the other day, after being challenged to look into it further, that the citation for this is in question and that the quote may not be accurate. I apologized for using it, after hearing it without fact-checking it for myself, and I will do the same now with you.

    As a faithful disciple of Christ, He gives me the humility to seek the Truth and admit when I am wrong, and it would be nice if more people in general were willing to do the same (honestly challenge their own ideas and beliefs) rather than committing intellectual suicide by not doing so.

    To reiterate, the quote from Mother Teresa that I used is unsubstantiated (i.e. may or may not be true), but I used it as if it was definitely true and apologize for that.

  • I don’t know why you’d say that I like to see myself in print. I’m simply spending time discussing the subject(s) that have come about from this article with people who are willing to do the same. I also do my best to respond to everyone if I can, rather than ignore them.

  • I did think about that, and I also looked into it (sepsis occurring because of pregnancy and/or being relieved because of an abortion). In doing so, I found nothing whatsoever to support those claims but if you have something in that area I would gladly look at it.

    The medical research I found said that 1st time mothers are one of the highest risk groups when it comes to sudden onset of septicemia and I also found that the medical community has no firm grasp on exactly how to treat it. In other words, there is no sure fire way to eliminate it.

    I found no references that stated abortion would lessen or remove the septicemia, but I found several medical articles stating that abortion was one of the main causes for getting it. It certainly wasn’t the only possible cause, but nothing stated or implied that having an abortion would cure the condition. Given that, I made the statement that it seems as if the couple in question were so upset at the hospital for not performing an abortion as they requested, and then grief stricken by the loss of both the mother and the child, that they wanted to make the false leap in logic that not performing the abortion caused the death of the mother.

    The mother was already septic when she was at the hospital, and it came on VERY quickly, and there is no evidence that I can find anywhere to support the seemingly false idea that honoring their request for an abortion would’ve changed the outcome of anything.

    However, in the spirit of honesty, humility, and intellectual integrity, I’m willing to look at any evidence that you may have to the contrary.

    I also hope that they are both now in the loving care of our Lord!!!

  • You have proof for what you say? If a woman was silly enough to want to take stroke and heart attack increasing birth control pills, they are as close as the nearest doctor. One can only hope that soon there will be no PP offices.

  • And what was the first cause? In your ignorance you may not understand the science, but it had to begin somewhere.

  • No it really didn’t. All you’re doing is saying “hmm where’d the universe come from? oh this magic man made it!”, and then saying that magic man always existed and doesn’t need explained. I see no reason to believe it exists, and no reason to believe the universe couldn’t have always existed in some form (because it clearly DOES exist now, which your god doesn’t).

    Something can’t come from nothing. Something exists. Therefore, something has always existed and “nothing” has never existed (in the sense of totality).

  • How would we know what does or doesn’t make us a better person if it weren’t for the divinely moral code that has been so lovingly and painstakingly written on our hearts by God?!. Do you honestly think that the laws we create as men and women don’t have the imprint, or absence of, the absolute morality that He’s given us?! All laws are morally discriminating in some way, depending on the perspective (goodness or badness) of the people on either side of them.

    For example, I wouldn’t put it past a highly engrossed pedophile or rapist out there to think, or say, that the laws of society are seriously discriminatory against them, and then go into try and justify it by saying something like, “this is the way I was born or that this is the way God made me.” As a society we discriminate all the time against those whom we don’t want doing certain things that we find ethically, humanly, morally, and even divinely reprehensible. The problem with that is that we don’t always agree on what those dimensions should or shouldn’t entail.

    That’s why we try to embrace debate and discussion, instead of physical violence, in this country when we don’t agree. Those conversations can often be (non-physically) violent in some way, because both parties are trying to get the other to agree with them and change their views and ways. Doing so is rarely, if ever easy, but no party here is forcing anything on the other or holding a proverbial gun to the other’s head. The conversation can stop anytime that either party is no longer willing to participate in it, but I for one prefer to seek out an accord on the Truth with my fellow human beings even when it may be difficult and/or uncomfortable at times.

    We all have the right to lawful discussion, which this is, and such discussion is very good (Godly) for all good people of good-will to do. Furthermore, all the goodness that anyone of us possesses is simply a refection of His image that He imprinted upon us when He left His fingerprint on us in the womb. To destroy that, or anyone unjustly, is like us trying to kill Him as well.

  • LMAO! That is like saying the best sunblock is staying indoors. Abstinence is neither a policy nor a form of birth control. But its good to know you prefer sanctimonious nonsense to addressing an issue.

  • Actually, it proves that the historical books of the Bible are exactly that, historical, but it doesn’t mean that the living Word of God is only history.

    He is omnipresent, which means that He not only exists in the past, present, and future but that He is also not constrained or confined to time like we are as human beings.

    Because He is omnipresent, as is His Truth (I/Jesus am the Truth, the Way, and the Life), that also means, as you assert, that there are aspects of Him and His Truth everywhere! And “yes” that means in other religions as well. However, those aspects of Him and His Truth are meant to lead all people to Him and His Son, Jesus the Christ, so they may be redeemed and saved by Him from the wages of sin which is dEATH! There is no salvation apart from Him, and those who believe that there are “many paths to God” should rephrase that to say “there are many paths the Christ”.

    Can a Buddhist, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, or Agnostic (to name but a few of the big ones) be led to Christ by their religion?! You bet!!! Because God, His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit exist EVERYWHERE!!!

    However, to gain entry into Heaven you must know and accept the invitation of the person holding the eternal banquet. And He doesn’t invite or admit those who reject Him as their host for eternity. If they never had a chance to know Him or who He is then He will take that into account and not hold it against them, but for the multitude of people who openly reject Him after having that opportunity, they are taking a serious risk of spending eternity in the smoking section.

    And for those who like to say “but I’m a good person and don’t hurt anybody” don’t understand the reality that we can not merit entry into Heaven by or works or our deeds. It’s a free gift of His Grace, which makes what would otherwise be impossible possible, but we must accept it freely of our own choosing. If we choose not to then He loves us enough not to violate our free-will and He’ll honor our decision to spend eternity apart from Him with the other guy.

    Everyone must choose for themselves, but why choose dEATH when Life has been so lovingly gift-wrapped and is waiting for you?!

  • This is directly from the US Department of State:

    “Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and
    religion. This right shall include freedom to have or to adopt a
    religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in
    community with others and in public or private, to manifest his
    religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, and teaching” -Article 18(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

    http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2011/170637.htm

    May God bless you and open your eyes and heart to Him as well!

  • You’re absolutely correct! Goodbye and God Bless!!!

    2 Timothy 2:23-26:

    23 Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels. 24 A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, 25 correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, 26 [a]and that they may return to their senses out of the devil’s snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.

  • You are entitled to your beliefs. You are not entitled to force anyone to follow them. Religious freedom means you can express your views, and I can criticize them, and visa versa. At no point am I compelled to care what you think God’s Law is.

  • Yeah keep reading your book. It tells you how to own slaves too. It’s an incredibly horrible book if it was supposed to have divine influence, with an evil god that tortures people forever for the most inane things. Bye-bye 🙂

  • 18 [l]The wrath[m] of God[n] is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever
    since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal
    power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for
    although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their
    senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

    24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts[o] for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They
    exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the
    creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and
    the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned
    with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips 30 and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. 31 They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

  • Lark’s Law: Sooner or later a flustered Christian will make some kind of pronouncement about their adversary suffering at the hands of God (or strongly imply and threaten it).

  • If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

  • Google didn’t show a quick reference to “Lark’s Law” so I’ll take your word for the statement, but I would like to point out, and make absolutely clear, that you are not my adversary.

    It may appear or feel that way to you, but my only adversary, which is the same for us all, is sin. God defines what sin is, not me or you, and the adversary personified (the dEVIL) wants to make us think that it, and He (God), don’t exist or that, once we accept that He does, that we are completely helpless against sin so we should just keep on doing it.

    For those who ignore sin, and by effect Him, the suffering that they will receive will come by their own hands (and choice) not His. Remember that He loves you so much that He will always honor your free-will, even if that means you choose to spend eternity outside of Heaven!

  • It was first proposed by regular poster Lark62 after a particularly sanctimonious type suggested that he is bound for hell. I have run with it.

    Your religion defines what is sin. I could not care less. 🙂

  • I am not suggesting that you are bound for Hell in the slightest, because I have no authority of right to make such a judgement of you or anyone. However, I do have a duty and obligation to act and inform you out of loving care and concern for your well-being what the Lord God defines as sin, and what His potential punishment is for those who choose to reject that and His forgiveness for it.

    Is it really so difficult to see all of the horrendous effects that we are living out (and in) right now due to everything that God asks us not to do in the Bible. The writing is on the wall everywhere that we look, but yet people still want to stick their head in the proverbial sand and pretend like we should be the sole masters of our lives. We’re like human hamsters on a wheel who know that we aren’t going anywhere good and yet, like you said, we don’t care! Well I do, and that includes you. Otherwise, I would’ve stepped aside on this along time ago or taken your multiple baits to devolve this conversation to an unproductive level.

    I’m sorry that’s where you’re at, and I pray that won’t last for you, whether it be with me or anyone else.

    Lastly, if you really want to put all this to rest than please do me, and you, a favor. Sincerely pray to Him, as if He exists when you do, and ask (or even demand) that He reveal Himself to you if He’s real. However, please don’t do that out loud because the other gUY can hear you, but hE doesn’t have access to the thoughts in your head. He can put them there, but hE can’t read them.

    In Christ,
    Andrew

  • I’ve already read all of the “spin”, and that’s all it is. That’s the entire branch of Apologetics, trying to make things that don’t make sense or that are horrible… palatable to people. There’s really no way to do it. For instance Hell is the most Evil thing ever invented; a place of infinite torment for finite “sins”. That makes an Evil God, far worse than no god at all.

  • With your own “spin” you’re essentially saying that you’ve read it all, know it all, except for the One True God who loves you more than you love yourself and others right now, and that you have no time or inclination to have a meaningful discussion about this or anything.

    You also reveal yourself through your spin which asserts that you know full well that there is a God, but are seriously confused about who He is (the God of Love and not hATE), and admit that eVIL and hELL do indeed exist. So since you believe that gOD does exist, but also that hE’S a gOD of eVIL, than why would such an all-powerful eVIL gOD allow any goodness to exist at all?!

    Wouldn’t hE rather destroy all things Good and have hIS reign of terror and suffering go unchecked and unchallenged by all those who might be foolish enough to oppose hIM?! Furthermore, why would such an eVIL gOD send hIS only sON to be destroyed by such little human insects that hE could blink out of existence at any moment of hIS choosing?! He wouldn’t, and you know that! So please don’t take out the anger you have towards Him, for whatever reason(s) you have them, on those who love Him just because you don’t.

    If you want to be angry and upset at Him then please do so, but leave that anger between you and Him and don’t take it out on others. I’ve been there so I know full well what I’m talking about, and when you’re strength to fight and resist starts failing you, and you really need Him (as you always do), you’ll be thankful learning that He’s always been there waiting for you to realize how much He loves you. The grudge is yours, not His! Let it go, and give it up to Him where it belongs!! He can take it, and wants to take it from you!!!

  • Your god doesn’t exist, you’re wasting your time as much as the Hindu would be wasting their time trying to convince you about their gods. You’re an atheist in regards to every god but one… and I have no clue why, but I don’t want to waste more of my time on you. 🙂

  • The comparison is between the error of encouraging people, relatively poor or relatively wealthy, to not take responsibility for the consequences of not their powers and actions.

    If only mere apples and oranges were involved.

    Instead, in both instances one is encouraging persons to be parasites on others and to abuse the common good.

    Nonetheless, one should want to encourage individuals and charitable agencies, at their own discretion and out of their own resources, to aid those who have abused their liberty (say, someone who is poor and who has become a drug addict) to try to recover some order in their lives.

    But it is not just (and what is not just can hardly be claimed to be authentically charitable) to force all the citizens, by using the power of government, to rescue all relatively poor or relatively wealthy who abuse their liberty with the assurance that others will have to compensate for their actions.

  • Yes, I hate to admit that I voted for either Bush Sr. or Jr. either. But given the options . . .

    If you have some time, take a look at the website “The Last Refuge.”

    Be sure to scroll back through what has happened there during the past few months off and on.

    You might find some folks with whom you agree more than you would have suspected.

    As for Trump, the guy has changed a lot during the last 20 years.

    And what he has changed to is what is hated by both establishment Democrats AND Republicans, who have betrayed the hard-working ordinary citizens who really make this country work, who do their best to take care of their families and friends, and who truly do care about one another.

    He has enormous numbers of those folks supporting him.
    And he has made promises to them that he had better not fail to fulfill.

    I’m just one of millions willing to give him a chance, and I, like most of them, don’t care one way or another about the Republican label under which he is running.

    The ‘party’ label is just a tool for us in the 2-party ‘system’, a tool to take back the country away from the elites who game the system and really give it back to the citizens, the people.

  • No “whinning” here, nor whining either. I accept that he won the electoral college and is the president-elect. I’m working on understanding what led some people to vote for a candidate who was openly racist, misogynist, etc. Those aren’t accusations. His words and actions fit the definition. But some people still voted for him. Why?

    I’m not looking for easy answers or glib, partisan responses. There are things going on with the Left that the Right doesn’t understand and vice versa. I’m wondering about how to change that. It needs to be done because America truly is stronger together than riven by divisions.

  • Many people voted for Trump to avoid Clinton. Not all are enamored by abortion and less so by abortion up until a moment before a fully developed baby can be delivered. Not all have been suckered into the global warming hysteria. Many of us do not accept the concept of a one-world-government. Many believe that open boarders to people who have no intention of assimilation into the culture is not wise. Some of us understand that every country that Muslims have become a majority in have persecuted other religions. Clinton’s financial indiscretions don’t give us much hope that she could ever be honest. The exposed emails show her to be a calculating, lying, unpleasant woman. Not many of us were thrilled with her support of the absurdly broken Obamacare health system. Most of us did not accept her statement that religious beliefs have to be changed. We believe that Hillary would lead this country further down the path of totalitarianism. We do not believe that it takes a village to raise a child at the expense of the parents’ freedom to choose what they believe is right for their child.

    We believe that there is a big difference between personal sin and public policy. Trump is a bad man because he has done bad things. We all do bad things. Clinton is an evil person not because she is less moral in her personal life than Trump, but because she had a plan to codify her unacceptable ideas on those who could never live with them.

  • Actually “most people” was not “most.” The majority of Americans voted for Clinton, though he got most electoral votes and so is the pres-elect. So “most” people did not buy the accusations made by Sec. Clinton’s opponents and echoed by you. On the other hand, “most” people are aware that climate change is an enormous threat to humanity.

    Nonetheless, the pres-elect will be sworn in January 20, 2017. I accept that. However, I think it’s critical that the government throw out the electoral college system. I believe that 3 of the elections of the 21st century went to the candidate who did not receive the majority of the popular vote of the citizens. That’s not good for a democratic government.

  • No, getting rid of the electoral college is a very bad idea. The idea of the college is to ensure that all parts of the country get equal representation. The system is based on individual states rights. The mere fact that, for example, NYC has millions of people with unique local issues does not mean that their issues are the issues of Alabama, or Montana or anywhere else. To ignore the needs of states with smaller populations is the seed of secession. Which small state would willingly accept the fact that their votes never count? If we got rid of the electoral college it would not take many years before a series of successions took place.

  • I disagree. The people who feel disenfranchised now would have their votes count. I’m talking about the people in New York who voted for the press- elect, the people in Alabama who voted for Sec. Clinton, etc. If the electoral college was eliminated, every single vote would count equally and every vote in every state would be equally valuable.

    At the least, if the EC is maintained, at least EC votes ought to be allocated proportionally in every state.

  • The U.S. if not a democracy, it is a republic. It is purposely not a democracy because in
    a democracy, the Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any minority,
    have no protection against the unlimited power of the majority. The majority’s
    power is absolute and unlimited. Every minority becomes voiceless.

  • If this isn’t a piece of phony reporting. When was it decided that it was wrong to say you can’t support a supporter of killing babies? Abortion is perhaps the worse sin that can be committed and you think it’s okay for a Catholic to vote for baby killers? You’re one sad phule. Your parents did a rotten job of raising you.

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