Denver Community Church averages as many as 1500 in weekly attendance across two locations. They are the latest evangelical church to become LGBT affirming. Photo courtesy of Denver Community Church

A large Colorado congregation just became LGBT-inclusive. Here’s why it matters (COMMENTARY)

Denver Community Church averages as many as 1500 in weekly attendance across two locations. They are the latest evangelical church to become LGBT affirming. Photo courtesy of Denver Community Church

Denver Community Church averages as many as 1500 in weekly attendance across two locations. They are the latest evangelical church to become LGBT affirming. Photo courtesy of Denver Community Church


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(RNS) In 2009, a friend told me that the prominent evangelical leaders who were pro-LGBT could all fit into a minivan. I struggled to prove him wrong.

But over the last eight years, a number of evangelical scholars have argued for alternate readings of key biblical texts that would make space for LGBT relationships. Evangelical writers have penned blog posts, leaders have made public declarations and evangelical pastors have led their churches to consider welcoming LGBT couples.

And now, after nearly two years of internal deliberation, the elders of Denver Community Church have announced they will welcome LGBT persons into all levels of membership, ministry and leadership. Founded in 2001, the non-denominational evangelical church attracts as many as 1,500 worshippers to its two campuses each week. The average attendee is estimated to be in their 30s.

On Monday, DCC church leaders released a video message on their Facebook page aimed at LGBT people:

"We officially encourage you, invite you, and support you as we do with all who call DCC home, to be involved in the ministry, the community, and the work of this church at any and all levels of leadership."

Pastor Michael Hidalgo says he and his elder team decided to start an ongoing conversation on the topic in 2015. After the conversation revealed a near 50/50 split on LGBT inclusion, the leadership decided to enter into a period of discernment, discussion and reflection.

"We committed to pray together and to study Scripture — not just about the verses that speak to same-sex behavior, but also about the history of biblical interpretation," Hidalgo said. "We committed to listen to each other, and most importantly, to listen to what the Spirit was saying to us."

The leaders met twice a month for 18 months to dialogue. According to Hidalgo, the most transformative part of the process involved listening to those from outside the congregation. The elder team invited members of the LGBT community, LGBT allies and non-affirming straight people to speak to them without agenda.

"Listening to others reminded us that we were not talking about an issue, but about human beings who exist on all sides of the discussion," Hidalgo said. "This is about mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, sons and daughters, friends and neighbors and God's love for all of them."

In late 2016, DCC elders realized they had still not reached full agreement but decided to seek unity rather than uniformity. Sitting around the table once again, the elders freely voiced their opinions. Every leader stated that they wanted the church to adopt a position of full inclusion of LGBT people.

On the four Wednesday nights following the announcement of the church's new position, DCC will host conversations with their membership. Leaders are encouraging congregants to ask questions and even disagree. They are also asking DCC's members to spend more time with those holding alternate views and resist the urge to gravitate only toward like-minded friends. This posture, Hidalgo believes, may explain why the decision to be inclusive has not created a schism as it has in other churches.

"We've consistently encouraged our people to ask difficult questions and learn together, which is probably part of the reason that there was not a single blow-up among our elder team at any point in the process," Hidalgo said.

Hidalgo says he knows of only two DCC members who have decided to leave the church, and both expressed their rationale with "kindness" and "maturity." He has also been contacted by several outside pastors who say they want to move in a similar direction and would like information about DCC's process.

Image courtesy of Michael Hidalgo

Pastor Michael Hidalgo. Photo courtesy of Michael Hidalgo

While Hidalgo says he would personally consider performing a same-sex wedding "if the couple met the high standard I have for any couple who asks me to marry them," there is no mandate for other DCC staff members to do likewise. Each minister has been instructed to "follow their heart" when deciding whether to perform any wedding.

DCC's announcement is likely to create waves because of the congregation's large size, the amicable way in which the decision was made and Hidalgo's evangelical pedigree.

A graduate of the conservative evangelical Cedarville University and Grand Rapids Theological Seminary, Hidalgo has served DCC for a decade. Earlier this year, he and 50 other InterVarsity Press authors landed in the news when they signed a public letter disapproving of InterVarsity's policy to "involuntary terminate" employees who supported same-sex marriage.


READ: COMMENTARY: Intervarsity Press responds to authors' protest of controversial gay marriage termination policy.


Another reason DCC's announcement will be a big deal in the world of American Christianity is precisely because it won't feel like a big deal to so many.

Hidalgo is the latest in a string of evangelical leaders who have studied the Bible, committed to a period of discernment and then publicly changed their minds on same-sex issues.

The pace of such announcements seems to be quickening.

Even more interesting, the announcements that used to sound shocking now seem commonplace. And this signals a shift. When the surprising no longer surprises, it's an indicator that, in the words of Bob Dylan, "The times, they are a-changin.'"

My friend offered a bit of hyperbole in 2009 when he said that pro-gay evangelical leaders could all fit in a minivan. But his underlying point rang true: the overwhelming majority of evangelical leaders strongly opposed same-sex marriage and relationships at that time. Of course, that was 2009 and much has changed. Consider:

  • Scholars like David Gushee and James Brownson and practitioners like Matthew Vines and Justin Lee have published paradigm-shifting books on the subject.
  • The sprawling "ex-gay" ministry Exodus International has shuttered. It’s president, Alan Chambers, apologized for the damage it caused and admitted that the overwhelming majority of people in their ministry did not experience a change in orientation.
  • Jim Wallis of Sojourners adopted a public pro-LGBT stance and progressive evangelical leader Tony Campolo urged the church to welcome LGBT persons.
  • Christian musicians like Grammy-nominated singer Jennifer Knapp, worship leader Vicky Beeching, gospel singer Anthony Williams and rocker Trey Pearson came out as gay.
  • Julie Rogers, once a prominent leader in the celibate gay movement, changed her mind and now believes same-sex relationships can be moral. She immediately resigned her post at the evangelical Wheaton University.
  • Daniel Kirk, a New Testament scholar at Fuller Theological Seminary, took an affirming position. As a result, his employment contract was not renewed.
  • Prominent Christian author and HGTV star Jen Hatmaker announced she and her husband, pastor Brandon Hatmaker of Austin New Church, had become LGBT-affirming.
  • A rolling list of evangelical pastors announced they and their congregations would now welcome and accept LGBT persons: Fred Harrell of City Church San Francisco, Adam Hamilton of Church of the Resurrection, Ken Wilson of Blue Ocean Faith, Ryan Meeks of EastLake Community Church, Danny Cortez of New Heart Community Church, Adam Phillips of Christ Church, Stan Mitchell of GracePointe Church and others.

It seems the minivan has become a caravan. And you can now add "Michael Hidalgo" and "Denver Community Church" to the passenger manifest.

Comments

  1. This is what I’ve been saying. The “traditional” reading of texts purported to be anti-LBTG is in error. For the large majority of people refusing to accept that error, I don’t think it was based on maliciousness. It’s very difficult, even frightening, to let go of a long held belief and realize that translation and interpretation errors have been made.

    BTW, by no means should one decided that means the bible is worthless to them. It simply means that there is a mistake, correct it and move on.

    I do believe that the charlatans masquerading as preachers, who’ve become wealthy off demonizing certain groups like LBTG folks, pro-choicers, etc., are indeed acting out of greed and cruel malice.

  2. Cool. I could actually see myself attending such a church. I have not found a church to attend since becoming disaffected by Mormonism’s harsh social conservatism against its own socially liberal roots.

  3. Having read a lot of the revised interpretation materials online for those key Bible passages, I totally agree with the move this congregation has made. Hopefully, more and more Christians will see the light on this vital religious issue.

  4. This is our church, and we are so proud to be a part of it. Thankful for our pastor and our elder team, as they seek God’s face and His direction, at all times.

  5. Thanks for the good news. I would however question inclusion of Adam Hamilton as an ‘evangelical.” While in its older meaning he certainly is one, as am I, but currently the phrase means one is a hatemonger and a fundamentalist and he is neither.

  6. But they somehow have placed themselves, and their entire church, in a clear and spiritually harmful opposition to God and the Scriptures, regarding this one issue.

    On other issues it sounds like they are doing well, thankfully … but not on *this* issue.

  7. Actually, you have that backwards. Folks like you turn holy writ on its head to serve your base bigotry as the supposed will of God. If you had paid the least amount of attention to the footnotes of the article, you would see a who’s who of scholarly writers who have shed new light and new views on the Bible and the alleged meaning of passages that folks like you use as the basis for justifying your bigotry.

  8. “Every leader stated that they wanted the church to adopt a position of full inclusion of LGBT people.” So, they chose to deceive precious people and pat their behinds as they journey to Hell.

    Revelation 21:8 ESV
    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

  9. 1 Timothy 6:20 – New International Version
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,

  10. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV 1 Timothy 4:1 ESV
    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

  11. 1 Timothy 4:1 ESV
    Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

  12. Judge not, lest you be judged. Suppose you are right, in your attitude. Who did Jesus prefer to spend his time with, saints or sinners? Remember, when you point your finger at someone else, you’ve got three fingers pointing back at yourself….We all tend to belong to opinion groups that share our same beliefs. In closing, I will love you in spite of yourself, because that is what the great commandment calls for me to due.

  13. I love all of God’s creation and firmly believe we are all made in God’s image and likeness. That includes non-hetero men, women and children. How long have you been hiding behind scripture , in order to spout such hateful. malicious and non-Christlike behaviour?

  14. John 7:24King James Version (KJV)
    24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    Are Christ’s judgments righteous enough for you?

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    You would rather these assemblies send homosexuals to Hell?

    God bless you.

  15. Psalm 27:8 – New International Version
    The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and he helps me. My heart leaps for joy, and with my song I praise him.”
    Who do you follow?

  16. I believe that Christ calls on us to truly love each other. Plus, I don’t share your belief that homosexuals go to hell, simply by being homosexual. Let us be brave enough to acknowledge our own sinfulness, as well as not accepting of those different from ourselves. Come out of the darkness and into the Light. I promise I won’t throw scripture at you, in order to serve my point of view….
    You closed with “God Bless You.” Question is, do you bless me?

  17. I will now with scripture:

    Revelation 2:20 International Standard Version (ISV)

    20 But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet and who teaches and leads my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

    Revelation 21:8 ESV

    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    BTW you never told me who you follow.
    Also, Just because you think Christ will not send the homosexuals to Hell, does not mean He will contradict Himself.

  18. churching done right.
    not just or even mainly in the conclusion but in the process.

  19. You lost me with female elders. This church hasn’t been aligned with scripture for a very long time. This new decision just adds to their heresy. They need our prayers. Please join me in that endeavor.

  20. how do you know,though, that the seductive false doctrine isn’t the Pharisaical urge to always condemn the “other”? American Christianity is divided today along the faultline of those who emulate Christ in showing grace, mercy, compassion and empathy to the outcast, and those who emulate the Pharisee in the passion for enforcing rules “heavy to be bourne” just as often man-made traditions as actually God’s word, upon people who do not necessarily hold them to be true.
    One or the other of these – at least – are preaching to “itching ears” but it seems more likely to me that the ones who are not walking in the model of Christ are the ones guilty of that.

    In any case, remember that the human sinful desire to look down on and condemn others is every bit as much a temptation (and much more commonly indulged) as sexual sins. Do not presume yourself immune to the desire to have false teachers tell you that you are in the right to do that.

  21. Tammy, Christ taught that one should listen to the Pharisees, so, seems you are a little off there.
    I think you also accuse Jesus of judging as He taught that homosexuality is a sin.

  22. Not by Jesus standards. This assembly is leading people away from Christ and His truth. He said He would heal us of our sin, upon repentance – not to endorse the abominations.

  23. Sorry – after 3000, or so years of existence, an incredible amount of translators and readers, and suddenly, the homosexuals don’t like the truth, so all of a sudden, all of those people are wrong, but the people who have re-interpreted them…. Talk about arrogance!

    1 Timothy 6:20 – New International Version
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,

  24. It’s strange how you forgot to include conservative churches in your list. The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest protestant church in the US, has had it’s 9th straight year of membership decline, with 200,000 lost members in 2016 alone. In fact most conservative churches are also losing members. So its it’s pretty deceitful to cherry pick data to spin a story about liberal churches losing members as if they are the only ones. Most churches regardless of if they are liberal or conservative are losing members.

  25. This is a highly misleading statement. Jesus never said homosexuality is a sin; he never spoke about homosexuality. You may be thinking of some things Paul wrote.

  26. One person who would disagree with you on “bigotry”, is the gay activist and author Andrew Sullivan. He said (regarding the “Little Sisters” legal case),

    “There is a deep theological narrative and argument behind Christianity & Judaism & Islam’s anathematization of homosexuality, that cannot be reduced to bigotry.”

    The best example might be Sandi Luckins’ posts. She primarily focusses on quoting the Scriptures, because they speak for themselves. You are clearly unable to refute them, so you retreat into false accusations of bigotry.

    Or you start name-dropping a few pro-gay writers, not realizing that evangelicals have already refuted them. For example, Dr. Albert Mohler and others have defeated the gay activist Matthew Vines in their book, and they stuck their entire book online for free, simply click it and start reading.

    http://126df895942e26f6b8a0-6b5d65e17b10129dda21364daca4e1f0.r8.cf1.rackcdn.com/GGC-Book.pdf

  27. It’s not an inability to refute. It’s knowing that Bible-bashing is a diversion from truth and not the revelation of it that Holy Rollers claim it to be. Been-there-done-that in my youth. You can go around the merry-go-round of cliché gotcha quotes from the Bible forever and never arrive at any higher truth. I don’t plan to read any of your hallelujah hater writers because they also simply skim and skew the truth to fit their perverted fancies.

    What you claim as refutation is always some lame excuse for argument without solid scholarship to back it up. I grew up Mormon and would agree to read the anti-Mormon literature hallelujah acquaintances gave me on the condition that I could write corrections in the margins. Every last anti-Mormon book I ever read failed to criticize Mormonism on its real weaknesses and instead simply regurgitated the same old false talking points that holy rollers tell themselves about the Mormons as one of their many boogeymen.

    The real flaws of Mormonism are invisible to folks like you because your cult shares all of the same flaws and faults of the Mormons. So, you make up stories in an effort to make the Mormons look worse while being merely just as bad as you folks are. The Mormons and the holy rollers (Evangelicals) are simply two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

  28. Thanks for one more frenzied whirlwind of nonsense. I feel like I have been baptized in horse manure after reading that. It is amazing that you can quote real scripture and make it read like the babble of the insane.

  29. 1 Corinthians 14:34 —

    NIV: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

    NLT: Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.

    EST: the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

    BSB: women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

    NASB: The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

    KJB: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

    I could go on, but see how remarkably similar all the versions are in asserting that we do not need to hear from you, according to your buddy, the Apostle Paul. And since you conflate the words of Paul to be the words of Christ, you should “heed Christ” and stop yammering. It would be a real blessing.

  30. Thank you to this congregation, not just for showing Jesus’ love to the marginalized, but in the process they used to get there. I was a member of a church that went through a split (not over this issue). It was so my announced one week that our congregation had pulled out of the denomination, and we could like it or lump it. What pain that caused.

  31. Thanks for quoting irrelevant Bible verses at me. Are you going to chant and waive burning incense next? Your goofy sense of self-importance is almost endearing.

  32. The error is clearly with the folks on your side of the fence, Ms. Leftness. This is straightforwardly demonstrated from both Scripture and scholarship, and the information is available anytime.

  33. I wonder how many of you actually know any LGBT people. Do you really think that LGBT people are fundamentally different somehow? As a gay man who follows Christ’s teachings as best as i can, and prays often for guidance and understanding, i have come to the conclusion that LGBT people are not any more hellbound than any other group. Straight folks do not have a better understanding or are somehow more “right with God” than us gay folks. There is no condemnation in Christ. To people who think i’m twisting scripture to suit myself, walk a mile in my fabulous ruby slippers before you decide this is the case. The church has done extraordinary damage to this group (and to me personally…but God is indeed great, and my faith has grown regardless of christian small-mindedness, and small-heartedness), and has much to answer for. What we are witnissing is a final reconciliation of ALL of God’s people. Furthermore, unless one knows the original languages personally, we are dependent on the translations of FALLIBLE human translators, who may have their own biases and bigotry which has crept into their work. Thus, it is simply not wise to accuse someone with a different understanding/interpretation of apostasy, heresy or blasphemy. Who are any of you to judge whether Christ has called the “unrepentant” gay man or lesbian or transman/woman to Himself? You may literally quote your interpretation of scripture at me untill the end of days, but it will not convince me that i need to “change” my sexuality to be included in the kingdom of God, for i am convinced by the Holy Spirit of God’s love and grace for me.

  34. It’s nothing to marvel at. More and more churches will succumb to the moral tsunami, will apostatize and rebel against God’s standard.

  35. Proving that the term Evangelical like Fundamentalist has completely lost all meaning.

  36. Correction: “More and more churches will succumb to the moral tsunami [enlightenment], will [rationally] apostatize and rebel against [man’s unsubstantiated claims of knowing a] God’s standard.”

  37. “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching [reasoning], but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”

    With my minor revision, that statement is a perfect description of you.

  38. Perhaps Richard, but knowing the truth here, you still haven’t made a cogent point, as usual. Thank you for the blessing though.

  39. The elders and pastors who supported this should either resign or be fired.

  40. Engaging in any kind of sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is sin. If you are truly following the teachings of Christ then you will celibate.

  41. When this becomes a church meeting, I’ll agree. Until then, I’m going to expose you to reality. These “new translations” are a farce.

  42. You’re the one who reads it. Assume some responsibility for your actions.

  43. Christ discussed homosexuality from Genesis to the book of Revelation, so I’m sorry, I don’t know what you’ve read. Paul learned by revelation from Jesus – he is accurate. You may also be interested in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. That shouldn’t be corrupted in your Bible – maybe google it.

  44. Homosexuals have been given a reprobate mind from the Lord to do that which is not good – Romans 1:28, so their understanding would be hampered, my friend.

    People who belong to Jesus follow Him –

    1 John 2: 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,”

    1 John 1:6 – If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

    1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

    What we are witnessing is an abomination that is leading to the Lord’s wrath:
    Colossians 3:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)
    5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

    The translations have said the same since the beginning. Is your god so small that he cannot assure we get it right? Ours isn’t.

    Scripture is to be used to teach when dealing with apostasy:
    2 Timothy 3:16-17English Standard Version (ESV)
    16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    I don’t need to judge anyone. Christ already has and His judgment is righteous:
    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    As for your last comment, there are several scripture I could cite but I’ll just give you the a shortened version. When one becomes a Christian, their old nature is gone, and they are given a new nature. If you are still considering yourself a homosexual, and you are having homosexual sex unrepentantly, you have rejected Christ’s gift for you, are acting in rebellion to Him, and what you think is the Holy Spirit, if not convicting you of your sin, is most likely a demon that you have turned into an idol.
    God bless you, and may you find the truth.

  45. What pain do you think you are causing for homosexuals turning them away from Christ and His blessings – all in the guise of “love”. Do you want them to go to Hell?

  46. You should pray for yourself instead of preying on others, sinner boy.

  47. Sandi thinks the Bible was written by Jesus. When you point out, for example, that that means Jesus commanded the murder of unbelievers per Deuteronomy, she will change the subject.

  48. When Sandi says god Bless you, she really means a word that starts with eff and not bee.

  49. She is obsessed with homosexuality, and prefers to spell malicious h-o-l-y.

  50. If he included conservative churches, he would have to admit that he is wrong.

  51. Sort of like the very word “christian” itself.

  52. So you know whether god has spoken to them. Amazing how he agrees with you, and not them.

  53. Like I keep telling you Ben, Hell’s existence is not dependent on your belief in it

  54. Harsh judgments even in tweet-length remarks. Yep. Unrighteous judging defines you.

  55. Well, thank you, Reverend. You’ll understand when I don’t pass the plate for you.

  56. Wow. I am in awe of the leadership and compassion of Hidalgo and his leadership team. I am also in awe of their openness to the Spirit and to living as Jesus would have us all live. That could not have been an easy process for many people – when antagonism toward LGBT people and LGBT marriage becomes normative, it is hard to get people to be open to a different view. I am also impressed by the focus on continuing dialogue among all members of the church. It seems this is not a membership inclined toward divisiveness, hateful speech toward one another.

    I am Catholic and would love to see such openness to dialogue and to letting the Spirit work within us in a Catholic parish and diocese.

  57. Christ ordered the murder of unbelievers per you and per Deuteronomy.

    What do you think about That?

  58. Don’t forget stoning your kids when they rebel. (Note the “when”, not “if”.)

  59. “Who did Jesus prefer to spend his time with, saints or sinners?” Actually He said He preferred to spend time with the “sick” (sinners) because they need a physician (Savior).

  60. Matthew Vines was particularly easy to debunk. His entire book was simply warmed-over John Boswell minus the minutiae.

  61. Don’t mind the Brimstone Bunch, James. They’re professional bullies devoted to abusing others. Managing their own lives is too humbling, so they go after the rest of us.

  62. And having recently debunked a lot of the “revised interpretation materials” for you right here, I am totally amused that you would even be willing to go there again. 😀

  63. I have read through all of these comments and It is truly baffling. Are we so filled with fear that we can’t see Jesus anymore? We continuously play this game and build this hierarchy of sin in our minds. Are you willing to die on this hill? Really are you? What would Jesus say?

    I often think of The passage when the men brought the woman who had committed adultery and was sleeping around to Jesus. They said Jesus this woman has committed indecent acts we should stone her. What did Jesus do? Oh that’s right he got up and threw a stone at her. I’m being a little snarky here, but the point is he didn’t condemn her. He told her to go and sin no more. Did she go and sin no more? The one who is righteous among you go ahead and cast the first stone. Sandi can you truly say you can cast the first stone? Can you? I will speak for myself and say that I am a sinner. I need Jesus! If I was to standup and pretend that I am better than anyone else then I would have to ask who have I become. I think we all need Jesus. Let the fear go, trust in him, stop this hateful idea that because we are straight that we are better.

    I’m a proud member of DCC.

  64. Beautifully said, Kyle — You speak well of yourself, your church, your religion, and your Savior.

  65. Your notion of “debunking” is most more bunk. When you offer “proof” as you see it, I just see more hallelujah propaganda of the sort that helps the garden grow. But at least you do recycle all that horse manure. You’re going green, one shovelful at a time.

  66. As I just posted to another of your admirable church’s members:
    Don’t mind the Brimstone Bunch. They’re professional bullies devoted to abusing others. Managing their own lives is too humbling, so they go after the rest of us.

  67. Floyd, it’s not any side of any fence. It’s a result of increasing knowledge about ancient Hebrew and the civilization that developed and used the language.

  68. God speaks to us through Scripture, Ben. So what do the Scriptures say?
    Is DCC in agreement or disagreement with them?
    (For example, Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Cor 6:9-11. Hmm?)

  69. So the last time he said anything was 2000 years ago?
    As I have said to you many times, many good Christians believe what they believe not despite of what their bible and their god says to them, but because of it. They also disagree with you.
    And in your case, someone who will repeat any lie or defamation of gay people, for whom no reviling or slander is too far out there as long as it attacks the people you despise, who is always willing to throw a little theo-poo at other Christians for not being the capital-R Right kind of Christian, as you just did, is hardly one to speak about what the bible says.
    you’ve simply set up your bible and your beliefs about it as your personal god.

  70. If the Spirit is supposedly working in this church then the Spirit is contradicting Himself because the Scriptures that He has inspired condemn homosexuality in every place its mentioned.

  71. Sorry Riding,but that ship has sailed. Your failure on the subject of the centurion nonsense was and is plain to see, and if that is the best your “revisionists” have to offer then it is not surprising that they shy away from open debate and merely offer a list of cites that they know few will investigate or have the tools to evaluate if they did.

  72. Can I ask a direct question on this, Kyle? (By the way, I’ve already confessed some of my temptations in this forum, so it’s clear that “I need Jesus” too. No hate; no diss.)

    DCC has stated that it is okay for LGBT’s “… to be involved in the ministry, the community, and the work of this church at any and all levels of leadership”, which opens the door to openly practicing, unrepentant gay clergy serving as leading shepherds at your church.

    Your pastor has openly stated that he would “he would personally consider performing a same-sex wedding…”, and that position **automatically** stands in opposition to key Bible texts.

    So here’s my question for you. Not trying to draw you into a debate, and not trying to get you into trouble with anybody. DCC has made its decision. But what is your own view of 1 Cor. 6:9-11 and also 1 Cor. 10:13? Do you personally agree or disagree with those two texts?

  73. I have a good friend who is a gay Christian. I wanted to understand the whole issue better so I read this incredible heartfelt book, Washed And Waiting, which is the story of a gay Christian man (Wesley Hill) striving to live a celibate life, while also struggling with loneliness. The church should welcome all people, and should be the community that Jesus began, bearing one another’s burdens as we seek fellowship and transformation into the image of Christ. In fact, gay *celibate* Christians would do very well in positions of leadership, since they serve as a model for others, as has been done in Ravi Zacharias’ ministry (www.rzim.org). The church should not try to redefine God’s definition of marriage, it is God who defines us, all of us – gay or not, we bear His beautiful image (Genesis 1:26-27). However, in trying to admirably welcome the LGBT community, DCC has swung the pendulum way too far in the other direction, and obviously strong-armed the interpretation of God’s Word to its own liking. See the head pastor’s quote in the article on http://www.religionnews.com. When it comes to officiating gay marriage, he would do it, and says to his staff on the issue to “follow your heart”. What about following God’s Word!? Jesus reiterated God’s plan for marriage in Matthew 19:5 when He quoted the ideal of Genesis 2:24 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh”. And Jesus, the greatest example of what it means to be human and bear God’s image, lived a celibate life. What He did was to remove sexual fulfillment from the center of Christian life and community. Culture, which from one perspective can be seen as the social outworking of the brokenness of mankind, thinks the opposite. And, unmoored from what God has designed marriage and sex to be, DCC is caving to culture. What does this mean for a gay Christian who is trying to remain celibate, often without hope that there is any biblically legitimate way for them to satisfy their longing for relational intimacy with another person? Loneliness is a ubiquitous human condition, regardless of sexual orientation, and it is the calling of the Christian community to fill that void with each other -– as brothers and sisters in Christ. We are all sinners in need of God’s grace, and one day we will be made whole again without any of the brokenness that we now bear. Read this excellent book. As someone who lives in the midst of this fire, Wesley Hill spills his heart.
    http://www.relevantmagazine.com/culture/books/reviews/23890-washed-and-waiting

  74. “…that ship has sailed…” We can both agree on that point, which begs the question of you trying to start a new debate with the same tired old arguments that don’t serve you well.

  75. When this becomes a church meeting, I’ll agree.

  76. You have a very good point there. The above demonstrates it rather well.

  77. You aren’t loving the homosexual if you are lying to them keeping them out of Christ’s blessings

  78. So you are saying that you approve of homosexuals going to Hell because someone calling themselves a church lies to them?

  79. James 5:20

    New International Version (NIV)

    20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

  80. So you agree with Jesus, whom you say wrote Deuteronomy, that all of the unbelievers should be stoned, and not with some good weed?

    Yes or no.

  81. No, I knew what I was saying.

    Christians who think they know the mind of god and his relationship with anyone else of the planet frequently confuse themselves with god. So, in that sense, they are not “of” god in your sense,

    But that’s not what I was talking about at all.

  82. I asked you which scripture you are referring to

  83. You’re always tossing it around. Find it yourself.

  84. You referred to a scripture that you don’t know Ben? hmmmmmm

  85. Oh, please! Give it a rest! You were already challenged with chapter and verse, and you either refused to read the postings to which you then responded, or you did what you usually do and deflected away from it. Something you have clearly demonstrated: you are so dishonest that you’ll even lie to yourself. LOL. Yawn.

    Deuteronomy 13:6, since you’re lazy about it . Let me know how Jesus ordered that all unbelievers should be stoned.

  86. Cool. That would certainly make you a work in progress. Too bad it’s going so slowly.

  87. I knew the moment I read the article who would be here with her hellfire and damnation, and sure enough – she’s been here, damning people to hell right and left. If you’ve so much as said “hi” to a gay person, you’re damned to hell. And don’t you dare question her or disagree with her! She speaks for God and like God, she is without error. You are committing blasphemy against God if you question her or disagree with her.

    As for the Denver Community Church, it’s ministers and elders, and it’s 1,500 members – they are all damned to hell by She Who Will Not Be Named – even the children and infants.

    She Who Will Not Be Named is completely obsessed with stories on RNS that cover gay people. She’s written thousand of anti-gay postings. She doesn’t consider gay people to be human, and she wants them treated as total legal and social outcasts. She sees no redeeming value in gay people’s lives at all.

    I will say though – she is a fine example of the Evangelical faith. Her judgmentalism, her hatred of gays, her “Holier than thou” arrogance, the way she shakes her bony religious finger and denounces people, her uncaring, unloving way of treating others – all point up to the reasons I gave her the first ever RNS award for “Evangelical Christian of the Year” for 2016.

  88. “She Who Will Not Be Named” . . . . .

    Sanctimonious.
    Arrogant.
    Nonsensical.
    Delusional.
    Incendiary.

  89. as a mental priatent and a christian are they also mental heath friendly.

  90. I asked you first. Stop having a hissy fit and show the scripture that you were referring to, or well, you know what they say about pie holes….

  91. Of course it isn’t. Whenever the Bible says something inconvenient, it must mean something else entirely.

    “6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.”

    Well, how about the following? Literally.

    12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[b] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17

    Or perhaps you prefer the King James Version?

    6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

    7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

    8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

    9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

    10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

  92. Yes, dear, I do. And you won’t. Just keep reading, or keep pretending you haven’t seen the passages in question, posted twice already.

  93. Wasn’t quite finished yet Ben…here is the rest: btw – it’s history, not an command – Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers

    (6) If thy brother.—The substance of this law is that individual idolaters might be executed in Israel. It justifies Jehu and Jehoiada in destroying Baal out of Israel and Judah (2Kings 10:19-27; 2Kings 11:18). It also accounts for the covenant made in the time of Asa (2Chronicles 15:13), that whosoever would not serve the Lord God of Israel should be put to death whether man or woman.

    The law may seem harsh, but its principle is reproduced in the Gospel: “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:37). “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26).

    It is impossible to deny or escape the identity of the Lord Jesus with the Jenovah of the Old Testament He does not always put the execution of His judgments into human hands, but He is the same for ever.

  94. As I said, dear. whenever the Bible says something inconvenient, it really must be saying something else entirely. And so called Christians like you will go to any length to justify it.

  95. Do not spare THEM or shield THEM. There are no numerical limiters.

  96. Your error again, Ben. It said exactly as you thought, but, it was history, not a command for today. We aren’t muslim (edit)
    If I lied, I would be like you, and you would endorse the things I write.

  97. The price of “Christian love and fellowship” your way is simple too high a price to the human dignity of LGBT for them to pay it. You put a lot of “thoughtful” words into the same old anti-gay bigotry in your effort to sound reasonable and “right.”

  98. Sandi, the “lies” here are all yours for calling the sincere, scripture-based beliefs of others “lies.” Go follow Paul’s admonish to be silent somewhere else. You don’t get to pick who goes to Hell, other than yourself, thank God.

  99. You are just playing to the alleged audience you think you have as an unordained “expert” on God, Christianity and the Bible. We’ve all been around all your rabbit holes of religious bigotry too much, too often to venture down any more of them with you.

  100. perhaps you would do better to read more of Paul’s writings and actually learn what you are talking about. Homosexuals do not go to Heaven.

  101. I gave you the commentary analysis. Are you afraid of that too?

  102. You gave me A, not THE commentary analysis, and one which is clearly an apology for the clear language of the passage. Kill the unbelievers, even if they are your children. What part of KILL isn’t clear to you? The commentarys reference to Matthew takes a rather inconclusive passage that calls for no persons death by stoning, and pretends it’s the same principle.

    You really are a piece of work. Lie deflect ignore change– as long as you can be “right.”

  103. It was HIstory? wow, it sounds like a command to me. Maybe your favorite passages of Leviticus are also just history, and not commands.

    Oh wait. Then you couldn’t use it as a weapon.

  104. Lackluster.
    Uncompassionate.
    Confused.
    Krappin’ all over.
    Insanely ignorant.
    Nonsensical.
    Stupid.

    I wonder who we are talking about?

  105. In short, as Jesus said, you are perfectly willing to lay burdens on people that you would be outraged if someone laid on you.

    But that’s the christian hypocritical way.

    And please, spare me the nonsense about heterosexuals having the same requirements.

  106. It also condemns lying, judging, slandering and reviling.

    But that certainly doesn’t bother you.

  107. “The price of “Christian love and fellowship” your way is simple too high a price to the human dignity of LGBT for them to pay it”

    Well, that’s fair. Jesus told us to sit down and count the cost before throwing in with Him, after all.

  108. Nice. Pretending that your bigotry qualifies you to talk for Jesus would be funny if it was not so delusional.

  109. Christ brought the moral laws from Leviticus into the New Testament Ben.

  110. As I wrote earlier, if I lied, you would be agreeing with me.

  111. Some “homosexuals” will and some will not, just like every other race or group of people God created. But Jesus did not create bigotry. That comes from the Devil and that’s the destiny of all who proclaim hate and bigotry in the name of Christ. You have your ticket.

  112. Nothing more moral than killing people who have a different religion.

  113. Question: Was Jesus God? If your answer is ‘yes’, then He certainly did speak about homosexuality (Check Leviticus 18).

    Or was that just something Moses made up?

  114. Ben, enough with this. I believe I’ve schooled you on this subject before (if not you then someone else) and yet here you are making failing arguments again.

    If the Law were applied to the letter it would condemn ALL of us. That is the whole point of it as explained by Jesus in the sermon on the mount. Taking care of that was the purpose of His mission. When He said “it is finished” on the cross, He declared the sin debt paid, the death curse removed. Now no one need die for their sins, unless they choose to — for eternity–, and the door is open to all (as the torn curtain in the Temple showed) for repentance and reconciliation.

    The sins that put Him on that cross, however, are still to be avoided. Our lives belong to Him now, not to us.

  115. no homosexuals will not go to Heaven. Don’t give them false hope

    Ephesians 5:5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not become partners with them; 8for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.

  116. You are the fountain of false hope. Your hatred comes from the Devil. And it’s Lucifer who will be punching your ticket to the afterlife, not Jesus, not unless you actually repent.

  117. That’s straight out of the NT. Need chapter and verse?

  118. Not from you. When I can’t figure things out for myself, I go to Bible scholars who are not bigots. You would not qualify.

  119. Nice try at “turning the other cheek.” It would work if it was genuine, but it’s not. You will have something harsh to say, just as soon as you freshen up your repertoire of bigoted remarks to share. You always do.

  120. “I believe I’ve schooled you on this subject before (if not you then someone else) and yet here you are making failing arguments again.” No, you have told me what you think. You have yet to “school me” in anything but your wholly imaginary superiority as Christian. And yet you also don’t wish to comment on the clear meaning of the passage, preferring also to believe that it says something else entirely.

    “If the Law were applied to the letter it would condemn ALL of us.” but we ARE, blanche, we ARE. Unless we buy the story you are selling. Or unless we are willing to avoid the CLEAR MEANING of what is being claimed as the moral, unchanging, word o’ god.

    You, too, will say or do anything as long as it supports YOUR version of Christianity.

    I respect your learning, but not your morals. In those, you are not better than Sandi. But you are a hell of a lot smarter..,.

    and that word is completely intentional.

  121. So since god said allegedly that gay people should be killed, you are ok with that, right?

  122. No thanks. I’ll tell Christians. They seem o be a bigger problem in our part of the world, except when they advocate killing in their part of the world.

  123. You need to look past your fear and anger and see the truth Ben.

  124. We all have our own burdens, and this is Jesus’ message, NOT mine. And don’t you dare play that “hypocritical” card on me, I’ve been single and celibate my whole life.

  125. Good for you. Sorry that you are missing out on love, sex, romance, and the creation of your own family, in favor of misconstruing biblical passages. But it’s your choice.

    But funny. i don’t hear Jesus taking, or see Jesus writing, I just hear and see YOU. And YOU are one of the exceptions. And I also don’t see or hear the majority of people who demand that gay people live that kind of life you have chosen for yourself willing to to anything but lay burndens on others.

  126. Where does human dignity come from? Two options only… Evolution? Time plus matter plus chance, and boom… a human being who is nothing more than a meat machine? Or does human dignity come from all of us being created in God’s image, all of us his image bearers?
    And what price did Jesus pay to perfect that image in us? Did he say the price was too high? “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” (Mathew 26:39) He did the Father’s will and out of that cross produced the most beautiful gift – salvation from our brokenness before God – that mankind has ever received.

  127. It’s presumptuous of you to say that I’m missing out. Especially on love. I live within a wonderful community of Christian brothers and sisters. I admit also that it’s not always easy, it’s not supposed to be, life is messy.
    But was Jesus missing out? If he was celibate – no sex, romance, or children – and he was also the greatest example of what it means to be fully human, and completely fulfilled, then it’s worth looking into why that is that case. But don’t take my word for it, go straight to the gospels to see exactly what he said and did. And understanding the cultural background makes a big difference to prevent our modern minds from misinterpretation. I’ve found Joe Amaral’s “Understanding Jesus”, or Kenneth Bailey’s “Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes” to be very helpful.

  128. Sandi, your brimstone rhetoric is doing more harm than good. You are more interested in winning the debate and condemning others than in winning someone to the love of Christ and how he can change lives.

  129. actually, it was intended as humour – a play on their use of fire – but, point taken, thank you

  130. Of course we know who you’re talking about, but she is not an example. It makes me sick to my stomach that she parades around like a Christian. She’s like the pharisees that Jesus condemned. However, please exercise enough discernment in this… don’t lay at the feet of Christ the sins of those who disobey him. He is the example, she is more like the anti-example.

  131. LOL! You go to Bible “scholars” instesd of the Bible! How typical.

    Did those “scholars” also tell you that Jesus being God is not in the text of the Bible — when Jesus claimed exactly that literally all over the gospels?

  132. Well, good for you that you are not missing out. Bad for you that you think other people would.

  133. I’m sorry. But I weighed the christian message in the balance decades ago, and found it very wanting. And nothing I have seen since, especially when it comes to Christians using the Bible as a weapon against others, attacking other Christians for not being the right sort of Christian, or this unending search for money, power, and dominion in the Name o’ Jesus, has changed my mind about it.

  134. It doesn’t say something ekse entirely. It means exactly what it says. Many actions are, in the clearest sense possible, worthy of death. Jesus fulfilled that requirement with His own death. You can not possibly claim, after all this time, not to know that THAT is the core of Christian theology.

  135. That you see the Choice between those two as the only way forward merely indicates that you are a Bible believer. You need something outside of you to give your life meaning and value and dignity, to tell you what is moral.

    I don’t.

  136. And yet, every time you wish to support one of your dubious positions about homosexuality and hat the Bible means, you go to biblical scholars.

  137. So the Bible says to kill all of the unbelievers.In your town, yea, even your son or your daughter, to stone them to death.

    It’s clear, Shawnee. Absolutely clear. The word of Jesus himself.

  138. No, actually I go to the Bible, which is pretty straightforward. Then when the naysayers start pointing to “scholars” to say that it isn’t straightforward, I point to the ones that say it is. And mine have the benefit of actually having lived in the early Christian era instead of Johnny-come-latelies with agendas.

  139. I was thinking along the lines 1 John 2:19 regarding those churches who have succumbed to the sexual and moral revolution.

  140. Well, the lbgt crowd lies and slanders people.
    “But that certainly doesn’t bother you.”

  141. Not inconvenient. Its you who has that kind of problem. You need to read the Bible in the context in when it was written.
    It is true that in ancient Israel to encourage an Israelite to go and worship another god was considered treason and punishable by death.

    Nothing wrong with that.

  142. Speaking of johnnies come lately with agendas, irony is not your strong suit.

    As for scholars early in the Christian Era, of course, they didn’t have agendas at all. And there really were flying sorcerers in Cyprus. Not before, not since, but right then.

  143. I know you are but what am I? BUt mommy, all the other kids are doing it?

    Quite a defense you got going there, sinner boy.

  144. And you still won’t address the obvious moral quality of that passage in Deuteronomy. It’s clear commandment. It’s a hell worthy sin not to believe that Jesus died for your sins. You just continue to pretend it doesn’t say what it clearly says.

  145. How typical for you to claim to get your bigotry straight from the Bible when your evil interpretations thereof come from ignorant, bigoted preachers and not the holy text itself. You stick the Family Research Council talking points like ticks stick to a dog.

  146. Your math sure does not add up. Your bigoted holy roller take on the Bible is not the only one acceptable to Christians or God. Your false dichotomy of Jesus v. Evolution is not yours to set forward as any sort of exclusive choice. All you actually reveal in your response is just how tightly strapped your pair of blinders are.

  147. I see. The word of God never changes, except when it does. And the context it was written in– does that mean it’s not the literal and eternal word of god, but something that has a “context” by which it must be “interpreted”? Or only when it suits your needs? or that like god’s word, the context only changes when you say it does?

    And you see nothing wrong with dealing out death for imaginary offenses to your god, like not believing in him?

    Your morals and your willingness to bend scripture to your prejudices are duly noted.

  148. You have capture the essence of their hypocrisy and why they fail to qualify as Christians for all the blaming of others and calling on Christ’s name that they do. Horse manure has a better shot at heaven than they do.

  149. So she is not a true Christian, unlike you. She’s not all that different– just not as vile– as all of the rest of the virulent homobigots who post here regularly, and whom True Christians rarely, if ever, call out. They are usually way to busy damning everyone to hell while simultaneously claiming to love everyone. When they are not going on about anal sex, that is.

    Though I appreciate your willingness to call her out, I also really don’t see much of a difference among all of the various Christians here who constantly claim that other people are not true Christians.

  150. Or asking God to send bears to rip mouthy teenagers to shreds. Or Lot offering his daughters to the crowd in place of the visiting angels. Or Lot’s daughters getting him drunk to have their way with him after God destroys their home town for wickedness. These “Old Testament Christians” sure love their OT perversions, don’t they?

  151. I said Jesus said to count the cost before trying to follow Him. What’s your claim — that He didn’t say that?

  152. They were Jewish scholars of the Torah, if it makes you feel better, Ben. Not those terrible, terrible Christians.

    BTW, how’re you coming along on that explanation of how those uncomfortable scripture passages are “poorly translated?”

  153. The same way you can pretend that a command to slay the unbelievers doesn’t say that at all.

  154. Not according to your girl. And if that’s the word of god, why isn’t that you don’t advocate for it?

  155. Romans 10:14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?c And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

  156. Matthew 23:2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. “

  157. The fence-sitter theory on fallen angels has been totally debunked. And “riding the line” is being an active participate, not an inactive observer or “conscientious objector.” You again miss the boat by trying to equate a centrist political viewpoint with the ethical choice between good and evil, once again demonstrating your own moral corruption, and no one else’s.

  158. Only to you, lady who thinks about anal sex and thinks people who don’t even know you are black are somehow racist.

  159. “The word bigot was a word created by atheists in the 12th century–they used it to condemn anyone who believd in God.” The historicity of your assertion is nonsense. Atheism was simply not an option in Europe in the 12th Century, but religious fanaticism existed and the term “bigot” was invented to exactly describe an excessively religious person who felt empowered to meddle in other people’s lives due to their unwarranted zeal. Hence, you are most properly tagged a “bigot” and one only has to be a less zealous Christian to so tag you that way.

    You also totally misrepresent the history of homosexuality and the American Psychological Association. Homosexuality only became labeled as a mental disorder in the mid-1950s as part of the McCarthy-Era crackdown on civil liberties as part of their frenzied fear of communism. It took 20 years for a majority of decision makers in the APA to come to consensus against that false assertion and create a policy against labeling LGBT as a psychological disorder, but there were therapists from the get-go who risked defamation by Senator Joe McCarthy and his gang of social thugs to oppose such things.

    You are simply regurgitating the false, discredited and debunked disinformation of the Family Research Council and/or World Congress of Families. That sort of distortion of the historical record is exactly why those two organizations get labeled as “hate groups” by the Southern Poverty Law Center. one of the oldest ongoing voices for equality in America.

  160. What Jesus said or did not say is not the issue; it is always whether or not you have the right to evoke the name of Christ or the words of Christ to make your false, bigoted assertions. The simple fact of the matter is that you have no special right to tell anyone how to regard or apply the Word of God. Your Family Research Council/World Congress of Families bigotry spin is not inspired of God.

  161. Because Jesus already paid for every sin punishable by death as per the Torah. That is the essence of the Gospel.

    Why do you think so many Christisns oppose the death penalty? Because it’s a fearsome thing to contemplate cutting short someone else’s day of repentance and grace.

  162. That’s not an answer. I already explained how Jesus removed the curse of sin. Now tell me how the passages about homosexuality were “poorly translated” and how they were supposed to be translated, please?

  163. That’s not an answer to my question, either. But you won’t let that stop you.
    Start with sleep the sleep of a woman.
    Add a passage about idolatry being turned into a condemnation of gay people.
    Season with the Sodom story, which you admitted yourself had nothing to do with homosexuality, yet which has been used for 1000 years to condemn gay people.
    Or just start being honest that you, like me and everyone else, reads the bible the way you want it to be. It has EVERYTHING to do with the kind of person you are.

  164. I’ve never read anything by the Family Reasearch Council in my life. I have no need to. If they agree with me, then good for them.

    As for the rest, I beg your pardon but I have as much right as anyone here to contend for the faith and the scriptures, and to point out error where it is patently evident — your blood pressure notwithstanding. Every one of us is commissioned to go out into all the world and make disciples (not merely fans) and teach them all the things that Christ taught us.

    Or do your “scholars” dispute that, too?

  165. You have the wrong contributor when you address me as “Ben.” While both Ben and I hail from California, I live north of Sacramento, Ben lives west of Sacramento. But since you asked, the Bible tells us that Moses wrote Deuteronomy, although it is generally thought that Joshua probably served as the scribe to Moses. That idea is strengthened by the similarities between the five books of Moses and the Book of Joshua. However, there is also the claim that all of the prophetic assertions were added after the fact by other, later contributors to the Biblical record. That would be part of the so-called “Strands Theory” for explaining prophecy in the Old Testament.

  166. My blood pressure is fine. I have naturally low blood pressure, allowing me to suffer fools better than most. But I do suffer from “pollution-induced” asthma. Your holy roller horse manure is definitely a trigger for my impatience, even if it does not actually trigger the asthma.

  167. Strong’s Greek lexicon: Koite: Definition: (a) a bed, (b) a marriage bed; plur: repeated (immoral) sexual intercourse.

    Idolatry is the essence of sin. Idolatry is putting anything ahead of God. How can you not immediately think of idolatry when Riding, for example, asserts that giving up same sex relations is too high a price to pay to follow Christ. For others, it would be something else. That’s what idolatry is. Anything that commands for us a higher loyalty than our loyalty to God.

    “Or just start being honest that you, like me and everyone else, reads the bible the way you want it to be” It isn’t particularly the way I want it to be. There are a number of things I’d probably change if it were up to me. The Author didn’t ask me, however.

  168. That’s too bad. I am prone to headaches myself but confronting error does not aggravate it one bit. There’s something to be said for that peace that passes all understanding.

  169. Wow. Nice post. I can agree with that one. (Sorry about the headaches.)

  170. Wow, Daniel, it’s been an amazing day! After reading your comment, I’ve already become a changed person! I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to share the truth of God’s Word, and His view about homosexuality. I had never been aware of that information, and it really opened my eyes. My response was astounding – I immediately fell to my knees right in front of my computer, and cried out to God for forgiveness and deliverance from homosexual temptations. I feel certain that I was suddenly Saved. Thank you!!!

    Some people will attack you by pointing out that, throughout history, other despised groups of people, such as Jews and racial/ethnic groups, were persecuted with the help and backing of dishonest writings and Biblical references. But homosexuality truly is different. You need to maintain your resolve to keep standing up for the truth. You will be labeled a bigot, but always remember, you have principles on your side.

    When I told my partner of nearly 36 years (I called him at work) about these revelations, he was devastated. But I told him how much God loved him and then I shared with him the Good News of Jesus Christ. I pointed out how God loves us so much that He wants us to be lonely and miserable for the rest of our lives – for His glory (and to be spared from His eternal punishment).

    Then I prayed and asked God if He would change us to heterosexuals. He replied:

    “No, I haven’t learned how to do that yet, and until I do, you will just have to be celibate or, if you are a skilled liar, pretend to be heterosexual. (and don’t worry about lying – I’ve redefined it as Absolute Truth) Many thousands of men have faked it by deceiving women into marrying them, and you can too. In my kingdom the proper role of women is to serve men, so by deceiving them into marriage, you are gifting them a special opportunity to serve your need to stay away from homosexuality. Remember, It’s all for my glory (and to be spared from my Eternal Punishment Program).”

    God is so good, and so faithful! Praise Him!

  171. That is certainly what the Bible says of itself, but not all secular Bible scholars agree. They want to explain away the miraculous events by claiming that those were all added after the fact. Whether they have a case to say that or not, I mention it because not everyone who accepts the historicity of the Bible accepts its divinity. And some people who accept the divinity of the Bible also accept that due to historical archaeology, we know a lot more now about the culture and secular history surrounding the Bible than we once did, affect how we should read the sacred text, especially in relation to our own times and culture. You don’t have to, but it won’t prevent others doing so.

  172. Well it all does come down to a question of morality, a very important question. But if our moral behavior is something personal to each one of us, and there is no transcendent standard, then when one person says “I have a right to live” and another says “no you don’t”, then it’s simply might-makes-right. Whoever is more powerful gets their way, which is evolutionary survival of the fittest. But if moral laws are transcendent and come from God, but he came as one of us in Jesus, giving up his rights to power and dying a brutal unjust death for our sake, then we’ve got another narrative to consider. That’s where i’m at.

    It certainly is non-ideal exchanging ideas over this forum, and it makes me sad about the rejection you’ve experienced from the “Christian” community, but I’m really trying to understand the story from all sides. One of the best personal stories I’ve heard is about David Bennett, a gay man who first experienced intense rejection from those around him, but then eventually the real love of God… it’s here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxDP_6dtHYwyR2VYbGU1amtOdlU/view
    (you’d probably have to download it before listening), it’s only 15 minutes. He now works with http://www.rzim.org. Hope it helps, under the circumstance its the best i could do to show you the heart of the gospel, which often gets obscured by my imperfections and every other Christian out there.

  173. Ok, so you hate God, and you hate Christians. They rejected you, so you reject them right back, with a vengeance. But not all Christians are going to reject you or judge you. There are big differences from one person to the next. I’m not going to brand you an atheist like Stalin, or a gay person like Ted Bundy, both murderers, so please allow for some nuance between Christians who are trying to reach out to those in the gay community, verses those who misuse the Bible to preach hate. You can brand me a bigot, holy roller, ignorant, say i’m wearing blinders… you’re prerogative. You can hate me for all the hate that others have directed at you.
    But i don’t hate you. One of my best friends is gay. Several of my friends are atheist. There should be no room for hate within Christian community, I’m sorry that there is, and I’m sorry that your experience with Christians has not been that of the model set by the life of Jesus.

  174. Sandi, I’ve read just about all of you that I can. I certainly feel great sadness for you in your ignorance. Before you start quoting scripture and are so absolutely sure you are correct, I would suggest you read it in the original as well as learn the cultures of the time each scripture was written. You would learn so much and be less likely to be embarrass all of us with your ignorance.

  175. I will not get in a contest with you, Judge Sandi, but the God I believe in is not the tyrant you profess.

  176. Pat, I am sorry for you then. You follow an idol that you call “god” my friend. Jesus didn’t lie. The good news is, He loves you and will forgive your sin. But, if you choose to remain in sin, He will not wink at it. Choose life, hon.

  177. “the original” and “cultures of the time” are code words for “I don’t like what Christ taught, so we’ll change it.” Scripture hasn’t changed in 3300 years, and there are no new translations hon. Just accept the truth, and let Jesus love you.

  178. Excuse me? I have spent years studying Hebrew and Greek and there definitely are differences. I also teach Hebrew and I wouldn’t even begin to start with you except put you in the hands of a loving God who is more truth and love than you will ever begin to imagine. You poor, closed, small woman. I really pity you.

  179. Yup. Not a word relating to homosexuality there. Just unspecified immoral intercourse. You could drive any size cathedral through a loophole that big that you wanted. And you really want to. And of course, the question was about Hebrew, not Greek. THe Septuagint simply doesn’t count here– unless, of course, you want it to. Which simply proves my point about how one reads the Bible is very much dependent upon the kind of person one is.

    Idolatry? Shall we talk about bibliolatry? You’re a sola scriptorium girl. You god is contained within that bible. Your understanding of your bible is paramount, Other people believe that the spirit moves them as well. They believe what they believe not despite what their bibles say, but because of it. But for you, they are simply mistaken because you simply can’t be. That’s what a sola scriptorum girl DOES. Likewise, a SS girl really considers them to be among the, ummm, ahhh, “uneducated, the gullible, and the easily led”. Maybe uneducated was actually ignorant, I dunno. But it does indicate that grim little line of self assigned superiority that I have noted before.

    The author didn’t ask you, true. But then, the author probably didn’t ask so many of his spokesmen to speak for him, let alone attack others under the names of love, morality, family, and faith. The author didn’t ask anyone to distort his word to justify racial hatred, either, or misogyny, ethnic conflicts, religious wars, witch burning, anti semitism, and homobigotry. but there you have it. One more time, the word of god has been hauled at to justify bad behavior,

    And you know as well as I do, because we’ve had this discussion before, that that is really the major one of two issues here. It’s one thing to believe homosexuality a sin. It’s quite another to make my life as difficult, expensive, dangerous and unpleasant as possible under the guise of sincere religious belief. If it is that, then we are simply talking about religious bigotry instead of antigay bigotry. That doesn’t make it better. And in any case, the real problem is 99% of it is simply lies and distorted truths. But that is the nature of bigotry, whether disguised as sincere religious belief, or admitted for what it is.

    And that is why the battle over words moved to the churches over 50 years ago. You invited it, and We have taken the battle to you, and are fighting on your turf, a turf you assumed was wholly in your possession. It’s not. If you– and by you, I mostly mean the conservative churches that have made “get the gays” a central tenet of their theology, no matter how much vomit they upchuck about love– if you were simply content to leave it at “Homosexuality is a sin”, you’d be completely surprised how little gay people, our families, friends, fellow parishioners, neighbors and colleagues, would care about whatever odd notions you might have.

    But you are not. Things have changed, and you don’t like it one bit. You hoped you might stem the tide of change by electing Grabby McPussy, thereby once again demonstrating that faith and morals have nothing to do with anything but power, money, and dominion, but I doubt that he cares.

    So you will continue to insist that no new scholarship, whether biblical, religious, psychological, sociological, genetic, biological, medical or any other remotely related to the subject can possibly withstand your certainty about god’s word. Absolutely your choice. But let’s admit that that is the OTHER thing that this is really about. When you lose this war on gay people– and in the civilized world, you ARE losing– then you know you will have lost the credibility outside of your band of fellow travelers.

    And this is the part you really hate. those uppity homosexuals, thinking that they are the religious, spiritual, legal, familial, sexual, and cultural equals to such sterling examples of heterosexual morality as Grabby McPussy. It’s not because the prejudice depends upon biblical belief. It’s quite the other way around. If the biblical belief goes, not only does the prejudice go, but so does the credibility of biblical belief. That’s the part you fear.

    Do I have it right?

  180. “Not a word relating to homosexuality there. Just unspecified immoral intercourse.” Um, “koite” is not the only word in the passage. Used as a verb, “koiten,” it also has an object, “arsenos” (male). It is laughably easy to translate from Greek.

    If you want to go Hebrew, there’s nothing there about “sleep,” either. The operative words are “shakab” (to lie down) and mishkab (couch, place of lying). Although, of course, you have given no reason why the “Septuagint doesn’t count.” Do you actually think the Jewish scholars who translated the Torah into Greek 200 years before Christ “got it wrong?” You think Josephus, who studied under Gamaliel just like Paul did, was wrong about Jewish law on marriage and sexuality? Can you point to ANYBODY in Jewish history who had an alternative perspective? And if EVERYONE had it wrong, why on earth did Jesus not set the record straight as He did with divorce, knowing quite well that homosexual behavior was a capital offense in Judea of His day?

    “They believe what they believe not despite what their bibles say, but because of it. But for you, they are simply mistaken because you simply can’t be” Please refrain from telling me what I think, Ben. For me they are mistaken because, unlike you, I have seen and examined EVERY ONE of their arguments for ssm affirmation in the church, and they ALL end up, at one point or another, with throwing out scripture. And that simply is not an option in light of the gospels. Jesus declared the scriptures inspired of the Spirit. He said Moses spoke God’s word. He said the prophets spoke God’s word. And He rebuked the people who didn’t listen to them in their day and in His. They are the measuring stick by which we evaluate any kind of “spiritual” revelation, for there is evil in the spiritual world just like in the material world. The Spirit does not contradict itself. Period.

    “But let’s admit that that is the OTHER thing that this is really about. When you lose this war on gay people– and in the civilized world, you ARE losing– then you know you will have lost the credibility outside of your band of fellow travelers.”

    Again, kindly refrain from telling me what I think, for you are lamentably bad at it. It would be difficult for me to express how very little I care about our “credibility” with the world and those who chase after pop culture. Even less do I care about the scriptures’ credibility with you. Jesus instructed us, in fact, to not be disturbed by it at all, for the world already stands condemned. The Word of God will still be standing eons after those who will not serve the purposes for which God created mankind are gone forever. The only thing that matters, now and forever, is truth. The thing you can not offer because, not believing in the God of the bible, you have no motivation to seek His will or to point anyone else to it. You do not care if the myths you are spreading about scripture and about sin are true or not — and I suspect you know quite well that they are not– for the aim is not to seek scriptural truth but to win converts to your agenda from among those who know no better. And that being the case, Christ’s warning that someone, perhaps Sandi, quoted recently about those who encourage His weaker believers to fall into sin is particularly apropos at the moment.

    “Do I have it right?” No, and it is doubtful that you ever will.

  181. None of your references discuss the notion of a neutral, nonparticipant in the War in Heaven. They just reference the fall of the devil himself. Your evidence all speaks against you, if you are seeking to make a case against the notion of “fence-sitters in heaven” becoming fallen angels.

  182. Nope. You just decide to judge me as gay for standing up for gay people. I’ve been married for 2/3 of my life to the same woman, am the father of 3 and grandfather of 6, and very much socially liberal. You are just a bigot (original meaning, an overly religious person who uses it to falsely judge others).

  183. You don’t get to decide any of that for me. But you do deny yourself the Christ in your false judgment of me.

  184. I really don’t care what you think you teach. There is no new scripture. The established scripture are accurate. blessings

  185. Can you name a couple of lies that she has told and where she posted them?

  186. Jesus did create divides. Those with Him and those who are not. Those who embrace homosexuality are not. They are outside His Kingdom. I Corinthians 6:9-11

  187. Not true. The American Psychological Association before 1973 classified homosexuality as mental disorder. We also know today how unhealthy it is thanks to the CDC.

  188. Nope. The CDC does not leap to that conclusion. That would be hate groups, such as the Family Research Council, conflating the CDC data to represent fictitious “pandemic” horrors. The reality is that more people die in car accidents and from total gun violence than due from AIDS each year. That’s the problem with trying to relate your bigoted fanaticism to real-world data, you have to conflate and twist data into a fictional narrative for it to make any sense.

  189. No one died and made you divine arbitrator for which God-made groups get divine approval and which do not. Since we now know that LGBT are born that way and that they can live happy, productive lives while loving the people they were designed to love, our understanding of God and the scriptures are obliged to update with that new knowledge. Refusal to do so is what qualifies folks like you as the “Amish of the 21st Century.” You choose to stay frozen in time, back in the 1950s when Neo-Bigotry was being peddled as All American.

  190. Let’s look at the CDC:
    “Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM) of all races and ethnicities remain the population most profoundly affected by HIV.
    In 2010, the estimated number of new HIV infections among MSM was 29,800, a significant 12% increase from the 26,700 new infections among MSM in 2008.
    Although MSM represent about 4% of the male population in the United States, in 2010, MSM accounted for 78% of new HIV infections among males and 63% of all new infections. MSM accounted for 54% of all people living with HIV infection in 2011, the most recent year these data are available.

    In 2010, white MSM continued to account for the largest number of new HIV infections (11,200), by transmission category, followed closely by black MSM (10,600).

    The estimated number of new HIV infections was greatest among MSM in the youngest age group. In 2010, the greatest number of new HIV infections (4,800) among MSM occurred in young black/African American MSM aged 13–24. Young black MSM accounted for 45% of new HIV infections among black MSM and 55% of new HIV infections among young MSM overall.

    Since the epidemic began, an estimated 306,885 MSM with an AIDS diagnosis have died, including an estimated 5,302 in 2011.”
    CDC

    These stats are staggering.

    Did you know that the World Health Organization wants all homosexual men to take anti viral drugs to stop HIV?

  191. No evidence that anyone is born homosexual. No such thing as a “gay gene”.

  192. Thanks for “correcting” an assertion I never made. I never mentioned either Abraham or Lot in connect to prayer. That would be Elisha (2 Kings 2:23-25) who had two she-bears murder 42 teens in God’s name for mocking him. Nice guy. You would like him.

  193. Sexual identity is not established by a single gene or group of genes. The Kinsey Scale shows human sexual identity to be a spectrum and it allows for 7 gradations ranging from 0 to 6. You simply seek to confuse the issue by making it an “Either/Or” situation when it is not. That’s why the four representative letters of LGBT are pretty well universally accepted and used. It’s why folks like you try to narrow the whole issue to a simple and false “either/or” to promote your disinformation.

    But the scientific evidence for LGBT as a naturally occurring status or orientation far exceeds any evidence that any religion on earth is anything more than wishful thinking at best and just plain harmful superstition at worst. Your refusal to accept clear scientific research on the matter puts your religious values in the socially dangerous and irresponsible category.

  194. The CDC also provides cool data about gun violence: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

    Now, let’s look at the nonsense of your conclusion, “these stats are staggering.” Just 5302 people died from AIDS in 2011 as quoted in your own selection of Data but 10, 945 people died by gunfire in America in 2014, more than as many as died by AIDS.

    By your reasoning, if AIDS is such a horror show, you should be twice as upset by all the gun violence, since twice as many people die from guns as do from AIDS. Once again, you conflate and hype data to “prove” a purely fictional point.

    BTW, if you had used more current CDC data, rather than the sheet you got from the FRC, the HIV/AIDS death rate in 2014 was 6,721 or about 60% of the deaths by gun violence that year or a death rate of 2.1 per 100,000 deaths (gun deaths have a 3.4 per 100,000 death rate).

  195. O, I think I have it exactly right.

    So Your comments about beds and lying down illustrate my point exactly. No one knows what this crap means, and everyone, me and You included, comes at it with an agenda. In the case of Your ancient scholars, they come at it from the perspective of their cultures: reproduce, increase the tribe, or die, and their own fears I suspect, as so much of the rhetoric about homosexuality– well, Male homosexuality– does. (LEsbians are HAWT!). And why doesn’t the septuagint count? Because if I want to know what the words in ancient Hebrew mean, I would go to the ancient Hebrew to find out, not a Greek translation of unknown provenance. And yes, I can point to all of the hebrew scholars, including those conservative rabbis a few years ago that went to Leviticus and found the translations wanting.

    You don’t want me to tell You what you think? You’ve told me what you think, over and over and over again. You and your ilk are extra special super duper Christians, god’s very chosen, the people who will be with him after the wheat is separated from the chaff, the dead branches pruned from the living. Once again, Your brand of Christianity is a way to set Yourselves apart as superior to the chaff and the dead branches.

    But wait! there’s more! You certainly don’t mind telling me what I think, do You? I know that Your particular set of myths are true? And I am deliberately leading those poor misedumacated and gullible people away from Your Truth? How elitist of You! Why don’t You just call me Lucifer and be done with it? Or just admit that Your particular set of myths are what you prefer? 2/3 of the world thinks Your set of myths are nonsense. And half of those who accept Your set of myths spend a good deal of time sending the other half to hell and eternal damnation.

    Not a real good demonstration of truth. But a great demonstration of religion. I don’t care about Your Truths. I care about gay kids killing themselves because of Your truths, of people like my brother dying young because of Your truths, of families destroyed and hopes dashed because of Your truths. And millions and billions of dollars spent to make sure that Your truths have supremacy in culture and law, starving children be damned.

    Finally, what I also notice is that You failed to even acknowledge the two main points I made. That Your religious belief, so called, is used to justify harm to people. You don’t care about that, because You are that kind of Christian. And I suspect You want the great falling away from Your beliefs because that just confirms how extra special super duper and Christ’s BFFF You are. And that makes You feel special.

    I don’t have to “know” what You think, let alone tell You. Your psychology is pretty obvious to me.

  196. I will try to answer you later. I don’t have the time right now.

  197. No such thing as a heterosexual gene, either. Care to comment?

  198. “Men who have sex with men” is a category created that INCLUDES gay men. It is not defined by them.

    MSM are actually men who present themselves to the world as heterosexual, but live promiscuous lives having sex with other men. They infect heterosexual women.

    Once again, showing homobigots like you that your entire world view is predicated on your prejudices. As I have said to you many many times, all of the things you claim to be true about gay men and homosexuality simply don’t apply to me or anyone I know. They do apply to promiscuous people.

    Not that you care about truth. Like so many Christians of your ilk, you simply want to elevate yourselves above those whom you consider to be your moral, spiritual, sexual, and religious inferiors. This is all that really motivates you.

  199. Her god is. It then, she has created her god in her own image.

  200. You got her perfectly. The only harm she is doing is persuading people on the fence about what a bunch of a-holes her type of Christian is.

  201. “No one knows what this crap means” On the contrary, it is perfectly straighforward. You shall not “shakab” (lie) “et” (with) “zakar” (mankind) “mishkav” (the lying-down) “isha” (of a woman). Clear and unanimous in interpretation for before Christ up until…when? 1980? Please be serious.

    ” In the case of Your ancient scholars, they come at it from the perspective of their cultures: reproduce, increase the tribe, or die, and their own fears I suspect” Every ancient culture wanted to increase the tribe, but somehow none of them had any problem with homosexual behavior EXCEPT Israel. Rome in particular faced a population crisis due to so much infanticide and needed as many people as possible, and we all know how peachy they were with homosexuality. Non sequitur.

    ” And yes, I can point to all of the hebrew scholars, including those conservative rabbis a few years ago that went to Leviticus and found the translations wanting.” That’s exactly what I mean — “a few years ago.” I’m not interested in what revisionists are claiming NOW 2000 years after the fact and under the polluting influence of pop culture and Boswellian nonsense. I’m interested in how these passages were understood in the time of Christ when He taught the scriptures as the word of God and upbraided the people for either not knowing them or for deliberately nullifying them in order to get along more comfortably in a pagan world (some things never change).

    “I know that Your particular set of myths are true? And I am deliberately leading those poor misedumacated and gullible people away from Your Truth? ” Your reading comprehension is getting as bad as your clairvoyant abilities. No, I don’t believe you actually believe in God and are fooling people. I believe you know that these revisionist interpretations being thrown around are BS but see no harm in propagating them because to you scriptural truth does not exist anyway.

    “Your brand of Christianity is a way to set Yourselves apart as superior to the chaff and the dead branches.” Jesus had to die for me, too. I have no righteousness but His, put over me like a clean blanket on a muddy dog. He sees me through the blood. He can see you through the blood, too, if you wish.

    “That Your religious belief, so called, is used to justify harm to people. You don’t care about that, because You are that kind of Christian.” So far about all I’ve done to “harm” anyone in this is to simply express belief in the truth of scripture. If that is “harm” then I’m sorry but that is inevitable. Truth is often offensive. The Gospel is offensive. Jesus Himself was offensive. He is “the Stone that causes them to stumble and the rock that makes them fall” (Is.8:15 and 1Pet.2:8). But to those who love God above all else and trust in Him He is a rock of refuge. He wants you to be among the latter.

    “And I suspect You want the great falling away from Your beliefs because that just confirms how extra special super duper and Christ’s BFFF You are.” So, first I “feared” this great falling away, and now I “want” this great falling away??? Which is it, Ben? You are terribly confused. You need to take a breather.

  202. As I said, I think I understand your psychology exactly. I didn’t say that you wanted to cause harm to people, I said that you don’t care that your theology causes harm to people. You can slough it off on Jesus and god all you want. But the fact remains: rotten theology produces rotten fruit. And there is very little more rotten than anti-gay theology.

    You’re right. We’re done here.

    Until next time.

  203. Ben, yes – she indeed has created a god in her image. Thank god I don’t have to live with her as god..whew! I wouldn’t want to be her kids, either. People like that make me shiver. She thinks she has all the answers…none of them are complete.

  204. And what a small god it is. As small as her answers, as small as her heart.

  205. Ben, thank you for hanging in there with me. The more I know, the more I know I don’t know. The Divine (for those who believe in a deity could have many names imo). It is so sad to see humans (such as our “friend”) who is not capable of relinquishing her own feeble mind to see there is something so beyond the imaginations of our minds, so infinitely more merciful, loving, open and inclusive. One thing I smile at is how often Leviticus is sited without full knowledge of the cultural times. Hospitality was the greatest virtue in the Hebrew Scriptures, not sexual purity. This whole idea of homosexuality was none existent in the same sense as today. Verses can be cherry-picked out of context to mean almost anything.

  206. Look closer at these figures:
    “Although MSM represent about 4% of the male population in the United States, in 2010, MSM accounted for 78% of new HIV infections among males and 63% of all new infections.”
    Just a small percentage of the male population makes up 78% of the infections. This is worse than smoking.

    Consider this:
    “Condoms alone aren’t cutting it, the World Health Organization declared today, urging all men who have sex with men—regardless of HIV status—to begin using antiretroviral drugs as a means of protection against the disease.
    Worldwide, a man’s risk of HIV infection is 19 times greater if he has sex with other men than if he doesn’t. Taken regularly, the recommended pre-exposure prophylaxis, or PrEP—a single daily pill containing two separate medications—is up to 92 percent effective in protecting its users from HIV. In an update to itsHIV prevention guidelines, the WHO estimated that the widespread use of PrEP among gay and bisexual men could prevent as many as one million new HIV infections over the next decade.”
    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/07/the-who-wants-all-gay-men-to-take-hiv-prevention-medication/374330/

  207. But according to the same CDC, gay men have a 0.11% chance of getting infected on average, including unprotected sex without condoms or prep. That’s a one in a thousand exposures chance. The point of the CDC warnings is talk up prevention of infection, not the false spreading of fear, which would be your purpose. If using the prep medication cuts the risk by 92% that would turn the risk into a 1 in a million chance of infection. Again, not the reason for hysteria that you want it to be.

  208. Name all of those who refused to sin no more who did not fulfill that promise: answer: all of them, every one, including you and me.

  209. It sounds like you are the one who is obsessed. There is no reliable evidence the APA removed the listing due to death threats. That’s a bearing of false witness.

  210. Way to misread a CDC report to bear false witness.

  211. If that were so it would be conclusive evidence hebbin is not a destination desired by persons of good character.

  212. You forgot how Southern Baptists are also losing members. Of course, your confusion as to causes and effects and willingness to sow discord shows facts like that are unimportant to you because they disturb your comfort.

  213. None of those are conservative except PCA. The Pentecostals are emotionally driven not ideologically driven.

  214. If they are excluded from hebbin because of who they love it is ample evidence whoever makes the rules is not moral.

  215. Or knows He can expect more from those who love Him. He offers a great reward.

  216. “You are welcome Richard.”

    um . . . apparently you did not read my entire comment, Daniel.

  217. No. He created us. He knows what is best for us.

  218. Everyone should be in fear of this. Its a fact this is dangerous. More dangerous than smoking and it cuts years and productivity off of those who get diseases. I have seen that first hand.

  219. If homosexual sex was healthy you would not be seeing such a high number of people getting sick and dying. Even the WHO realizes that condoms is not good enough to stop it.

  220. Your whole statement is just hysterical hype. 6K AIDS deaths in 2104, almost 11K gun deaths and more than 18K car crash deaths, according to the same CDC. Both guns and cars kill a lot more Americans than AIDS does. Those simple facts put the lie to your “concern” about public safety. Unprotected gay sex is safer than owning a gun or driving a car by a significant amount, but you sure stay off those “safety” issues.

  221. Actually, most infected gay men now live great lives with the cocktail of drugs available to them. The deaths most occur among guys not insured or without access to lifesaving drugs, mostly thanks to living in Bible-belt states where they get tested and seek medical treatment after they have full-blown AIDS, again thanks to bigots like you. Folks like you are what’s killing HIV infected young men in America, not the infection itself.

  222. Wrong again. Homosexual sex leads to diseases and a shorter life span. Even condoms is not good enough as the WHO shows.

    Do you know how expensive it is to treat HIV? Consider:
    “Over 1 million Americans live with HIV. While treatable, medical costs are often exorbitant. The CDC reports that the estimated lifetime cost of treating HIV is $379,000 (in 2010 dollars), and that nearly 30 percent of those living with the virus are uninsured.”
    The Cost of Treating HIV: One Man’s Monthly Medical Bill

    No wonder our health care premiums are so expensive.

  223. Public Service Announcement For Those on This Forum:

    According to RidingTheLine, we have some new definitions in the dictionary that you should all be aware of:

    BIGOT: Anyone who disagrees with RidingTheLine
    JUDGMENTAL: Anyone who disagrees with RidingTheLine
    IGNORANT: Anyone who disagrees with RidingTheLine
    BLIND: : Anyone who disagrees with RidingTheLine
    HORSE MANURE: Ideas that don’t make RidingTheLine feel good
    NON-JUDGMENTAL: RidingTheLine. If you disagree, please see the previous helpful definitions.

    Hope that helps, everyone!

  224. Many of these nen who are on these expensive drugs are not living healthy lives. Many can’t even work.

    Whi do you think is paying for these drugs?

    Have you ever heard of gay bowel syndrome?

  225. LGBT youth often work very hard in school, if not made homeless by “Christian” parents, stay in the closet until they can live on their own, and then buy their own health insurance. The gay young adults who don’t get proper health care are usually homeless boys, kicked to the curb by their “Christian” parents for being gay. Hallelujah homophobes are the single largest contributors to early LGBT death, not any one disease.

  226. “Bigot” as originally used was applied to excessively religious persons who felt empowered by their overarching religious zeal to judge others and try to run their lives for them. That would be you in a nut shell. Thus, you earn the label “bigot” all by yourself.

  227. The shorter lifespans of some gay men are caused by the stress of dealing with your bigotry and lack of access to proper medical care, due to being made homeless by “Christian” parents, or living in states where going to the doctor young, poor and gay is chancy for actually getting real healthcare. You hallelujahs are their worst danger.

  228. Same old false assertions even in the face of having your stats shot out from under you.

  229. how about the part where Leviticus says kids who smart-mouth their parents should be killed? or who make fun of priests? You might pick the book up and just start reading.

  230. Brother Ben, people who post shit like that are know-nothings. Save your finger-strokes.

  231. I do not believe such a being exists, but if stood face to face with one such as you describe I certainly would. I SINCERELY DOUBT THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN.

  232. I ONCE MET A man who thought he was from outer space

  233. “Come out of her, My people,” Saith the LORD.

  234. SIN IS SIN…If I were going out and having sex with women as a lifestyle who were not my wife, I apparently would be accepted in this “former” Church. This is a Worldly Club where the Holy Spirit has departed…

    You think this is love, but biblical love is found in the scriptures, not your worldly minds. (John 14:6, 17:17 and 2 Thes 2:10 which tells you what Biblical Love is…(2Th 2:10) “and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. You do not Love the Truth.

    JESUS CHRIST does not dwell where sin is not condemned, where it is celebrated…You are basically giving sinful men and women who do not repent, a one way ticket to the Lake of Fire and you elders will be the one’s who will receive your own condemnation. Apostasy is Apostasy regardless of you’re faulty Non-Biblical Eisegeses.

  235. Your Ignorant of the Scriptures. The Pharisee Card is Foolish. They were NOT believers in Messiah, thy were just religious on the outside, dead on the inside.

  236. Jesus Christ is God. Every single word in the scriptures are applicable to Him when ever His Fathers, The Holy Spirit and the Apostles spoke in His Name, OT and the NT.

  237. No that was His Fathers decree, God the Father who Jesus is in union with on every single word, jot and tittle…

  238. They were idol worshippers who sent their first born into the fire of Molech. They denied Jehovah God and they were summarily punished while their children who were also executed, were given divine mercy by not growing up in the Paganism of their parents and instead went into God’s Kingdom. That is Biblical Theology so save the arguments…

  239. Sinners were headed to hell, why do you think He went to them. He taught them about Himself and told them to go and sin not more…Jesus said to JUDGE Righteously. Every man and woman judges every action they take in life. Did you judge the baby siter who you intrusted with your babies or just grab someone off the street? Go through a stop sign without judging if you should stop or not and see what might happen…

  240. Read I Cor 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites”

  241. Stephen, that is wonderful to hear. Yes, I believe Jesus is divine. With your interpretation, I know you’ll be happy to hear that Jesus commanded us we are to treat immigrants just like the native-born. “The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.” Leviticus 19:34
    “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.” Exodus 22:21
    “Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.” Exodus 23:9
    “And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.” Deuteronomy 10:19

    It’s good to have clear guidance from the Lord on the topic of immigration. We’ve obviously been a bit off-track in our treatment of them.

  242. A highly convenient interpretation, not born out by all of Deuteronomy that precedes it, which is a repeated praise of how great this god is, and how wonderful Moses is, and how the people in this land will lose everything, including their lives, including the little babies that you claim are being murdered by the people of those lands.

    The passage itself says simply, KILL EVERYBODY. Deuteronomy also says in several places DONT MURDER, except when it says to do so.

    When god does it, I guess it’s ok. If you do it, at the behest of god, I guess it’s ok. If Abraham did it, which he was about to do, I guess it’s ok. Abraham certainly didn’t draw any parallels between his god and those false gods, but the parallels are there.

    That’s the miracle of proof texting. You can get your holy book to say whatever you want it to, justify any horror. The Text says kill ANY unbeliever, even your son or daughter, in the service of your god. How does that make you better than the molech worshippers?

  243. We’re not talking about your adulterous and fornicating impulses as a heterosexual. That would be lifestyle choice, if you took HOW YOU ARE MADE and it gave you permission to do whatever you want with as many women as you want.

    Not the same thing at all.

    But what is the same? One more time, we have a super-duper christian, gathering up and flinging his Theo-poo at other Christians for not being the right sort of Christian. And all of the other super duper Christians just have not a thing to say about it as you scream “heretic” at other Christians.

  244. EXACTLY!!!

    Just like American Evangelical leadership (i.e Tony Perkins et al)

  245. how do you know? There’s no book of lists in the NT which lists off each person he encountered and what they decided to do in reaction to him.

    Here’s a tip for you – YOU have not “sinned no more” nor has anyone else who presumes they are allowed to look down on others in the name of God. “Sin no more” doesn’t actually ever happen in this life, which is in your Bible, if you understood it.

  246. Jesus personally never spoke on the subject as far as we know from Scripture. I know that you’ll say that every word of Scripture originated with Christ, but that’s just confusing the issue. Reasonable people say “Jesus said” about the words attributed to him in the gospels and “the Bible says” about the rest.

    Oh, and Jesus is the ONE who’s entitled to judge so even if you were right, it’s irrelevant.

    As for the Pharisees, he told Jews to follow the Jewish leaders because they sat in the seats of authority, but that was an instruction for being an observant Jew, not for being a follower of Christ (after all, his church didn’t follow the rules of the Pharisees after he rose, did they?)

    But many of you have returned to the feet of the Pharisees in every practical sense, even though they are the NeoPharisees of the Church of American Tradition.

  247. You choose to ignore the truth more than just about Jesus, guy.

  248. This church’s leadership seems to have asked “Did God really say?” (as Satan did in Genesis 3:1) and have decided that He didn’t. The issue is not in whether we should welcome sinners into our churches. The issue is whether we should welcome sin. While churches like this one become LGBT-affirming, the Spirit departs as he posts “Ichabod” over their doorways.

  249. 1. All of Scripture are the words of Jesus to include Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1:25-32.
    2. Jesus did condemn homosexuality in the “red letters” in Matthew 15:16-20. Jesus said that out of the heart proceeds sexual immorality which defiles men. The Greek word used is “porneia” which includes ALL sexual perversions such as homosexuality. Jesus, therefore, affirmed what he said in Leviticus that homosexuality is an abomination that defiles people.

  250. Jesus said, “Unless your equitableness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven..” (Matthew 5:20). Jesus was, normally, in opposition with the Pharisees, teaching contrary to what they taught. Why would Jesus say, listen to the Pharisees? Where is this text?

  251. It appears to be a lack of context study on the part of those who, when they read about same sex acts in the bible, assume, it’s a general condemnation when it isn’t. The negative homosexual texts are, either, about rape (Sodom), which is not the same as what the article above is talking about. Or, the text is about idolatrous pagan rituals involving same sex acts (Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:27), or pagan temple prostitution involving those who raped young boys (1 Corinthians 6:9), all of which are not the same as Neil Patrick Harris and his husband meeting, falling in love and spending their lives together in a committed relationship.

  252. I will also add that slaves were forced to serve in pagan temples as prostitutes while those who came to “worship” sexually had sex with these slaves, who were often young slave boys, young slave girls, as well as adult women. This is what 1 Corinthians 6:9 is addressing in the bible’s original language. Read Michael Wood’s book, Pauline Parodoxes Decoded. Great read.

  253. It does not matter what you or I believe? It is what the historical text reveals in it’s context…You do not love a person to hell thinking there sinfulness is acceptable, that is hate, not love.

  254. no. They are about same sex and the temptation being sin. Homosexuality is idolatrous, pagan, they exchange an idol for Jesus.

  255. I disagree. What you are, seemingly, implying, is that Romans is addressing homosexuals who have turned their back on God and turned to idols, instead. You are implying that the text is describing homosexuals and, it seems, for you that the text is telling you that this is what homosexuals do. Therefore, homosexuals, in general, deny God, which has been proven to be untrue. Needful to say, the text only describes homosexual acts, but not homosexuals specifically.

    Homosexuality, in and of itself, isn’t idolatry anymore than those who believed, back in Paul’s day, that eating meat that had been offered to idols was, in and of itself idolatrous. Meat, in and of itself, is just meat, Unless, you yourself add some idolatrous meaning to the meat. Homosexuality, in and of itself, is just homosexuality. Unless, you yourself add some idolatrous meaning to it. Even further, a context of people who worship idols and engage in homosexual acts, as well as other acts, as an outward expression of their devotion to an idol is not equal or the same as, let’s say, Neil Patrick Harris and his husband who met, fell in love, and are now living their lives together in a loving, not harming anyone relationship much like any loving heterosexual couple.

    Romans is addressing people who, intentionally, turned from God and turned to idols, using various ways to show their devotion to the false god or goddess the served and worshipped. You may say, the text is combining idolatry and homosexuality because homosexuality is idolatry. However, I say, the text is combining idolatry and homosexuality because, historically, certain idolaters engaged in homosexual sex as a part of their ritualistic worship to false gods and/or goddesses. We simply disagree.

  256. When you call your god “Jesus” and think that he is endorsing you sinning in homosexuality, you are following an idol.
    Christ taught that homosexuality is unnatural and a sin.
    When we choose to sin, we turn from God.

  257. I disagree that Jesus taught that homosexuality is a sin. To someone who does not think it’s a sin, they would not view it as sinning.

  258. Christ taught that homosexuality is a sin – Leviticus 18

  259. That’s not my conclusion from Leviticus 18. That is your conclusion. It’s also old testament law. As I see it, we are not under old testament law, but under new testament law, which is the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

  260. Christ taught that homosexuality is a sin – Leviticus 18
    Christ taught that He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it – Matthew 5:17

  261. Here’s a good read for you that, I’m sure, you’ll disagree with. However, it’s good for you to know that there are bible related views out there other than what you already know. There’s always more to know than what you already know. This, for the most part, is from one of my favorite bible related books. The info in it is based on ancient bible related manuscripts and the Dead Sea Scrolls, which I assume, you’ve heard of. Modern bibles are not exactly like the original bible and this source’s intention is to share what the original bible said, based on the ancient manuscripts and Dead Sea Scroll findings:

    “…Perhaps the final objection a theologian may have to the biblical restoration process is wondering why Jesus would be needed at all, if following the equity based commands of scripture is the full basis of salvation. In his letter to the Romans, Paul explained his belief on why God sent his Son:

    ‘For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin. He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the REQUIREMENT of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.’ (Read Romans 8:2-4, NASB)

    The capitalized word in the passage above is the Koine Greek word, dikaiomata, in the original Christian bible. The original message of Paul delivered to his first century Koine speaking audience is this:

    ‘For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin. He condemned sin in the flesh, SO THAT THE EQUITY BASED REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.’ (Read Romans 8:2-4, NASB)

    In the passage above, Paul is contrasting two laws. Paul wrote that the law (the law of Moses) was powerless to get people to change. So, what Moses’ law could not do, God did by sending his own son, so that the equity based requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us. Let me repeat: Paul wrote that God’s purpose in sending Jesus was so that the equity based requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us. And, isn’t this precisely the same reason Jesus himself said he came?

    ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the LAW OR THE PROPHETS. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them…In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, FOR THIS IS THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.’ (Matthew 5:17, 7:12)

    Jesus said, the reason he came was so that the scriptural requirements based on treating others equal to ourselves will be fulfilled in us. The law and the prophets is to love others as self/treat others in the way you would want to be treated. This is based completely on the equity based requirements of the law, the ones Jesus did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. The other requirements of scripture that are not based on the equitable treatment of others are not the law, as I see it. Jesus, specifically, stated what the law and the prophets are. It was was at that moment, people had to choose who to believe in: Believe in Jesus or what other people told them.

    Paul understood exactly why Jesus said he came. Paul understood, there are many people whose flesh is too weak for them to follow the equity based requirements on their own power. So, God sent Jesus to be a sin offering so that he could send the Holy Spirit to write ‘the law of the Spirit of life’ upon such people’s hearts. In other words, Paul saw Christ’s death and resurrection as the only possible hope for selfish, self centered people to be transformed into men and women who truly make the needs of others equal to their own.

    And, how does this square with Paul’s teaching on those who are justified before God without ever hearing about the law of Christ?

    ‘For there is no partiality with God…For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law will be justified.’ (Romans 2:11, 2:13)

    ‘For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do instinctively the things of the law, these not having the law, are a law unto themselves, in that they show the law written in their hearts.’ (Romans 2:14-16)

    In Paul’s letter to the Romans, he mentions two different groups of people: Those who instinctively have the law of brotherly love written on their hearts and those who don’t. Those who, instinctively, have his law written on their hearts are already justified before God. Those who don’t need the Holy Spirit to write the law upon their hearts. Otherwise, they are doomed.

    Jesus himself said, he did not come into the world to save everyone. He said, he came to only save those who needed saving.

    ‘But, go and learn what this means: I DESIRE COMPASSION and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but sinners..’ (Matthew 9:13, NASB)

    In the original bible, it reads as…

    ‘But, go and learn what this means: I DESIRE COMPASSION and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call THOSE WHO ARE JUST, but sinners..’ (Matthew 9:13, NASB)(Compare this Matthew 25:32-46)

    Jesus said, he desires compassion. And, he said, he did not come to call those who are just (those who are compassionate/those who keep the equity based requirements of the law), but sinners (those who are not compassionate/those who do not keep the equity based requirements of the law).

    In that one single statement, Jesus delivered a wealth of information. The just are ‘those who are compassionate/those who love others as self’. Sinners are ‘those who are not compassionate/those who do not love others as self’. Some people are already just, even without a savior. Jesus did not come to call them, since Jesus did not come to save everyone.

    Amazingly, modern Christianity rejects all four of these teachings of Jesus. Modern Christianity has a different definition for who is just and justified. It has a different definition of the only mortal sin. It teaches, everyone needs a savior and it teaches, Jesus came for everyone. Modern Christianity is at odds with so many teachings of Christ.

  262. Got up to your misinterpretation of Jesus. He died so that we don’t have to. He came to die for our sin – yours and mine.
    Romans 3:23 – for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

    John 14:6English Standard Version (ESV)
    6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    And homosexuality is still a sin that needs to be repented of for the person to go to Heaven.

  263. Paul is an Apostle chosen by God. This church is relatively new, has young leaders and attenders, and therefore lacks in maturity…and most especially and obviously, spiritual maturity. Homosexuality is a SIN and should be condemned as so, not celebrated in sinful “marriage” as these church leaders propose doing! One day they will pay for their false teachings and leading people astray.

  264. God also had the Israelites kill ALL those who worshiped false gods as they entered the land of Canaan. God knew that their false gods and worship of them would lead the Israelites astray, which eventually happened. You can be kind to foreigners as they pass through your land, but you do NOT have to allow them to come into your land and spread a false Gospel!

  265. Since the sin in this situation is the depraved belief “homosexuality is sin” – you really have no point.

    “the Spirit departs as he posts “Ichabod” over their doorways.”

    With this claim, you essentially commit the one unforgivable sin – blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

  266. Your false comparison is sin, and it shows you have no morals sense. Your confession “If I were going out and having sex with women as a lifestyle who were not my wife” has no relevance to the issue of homosexuality – unless you are willing to declare that all heterosexual sex is forbidden because men like you hunger to commit adultery.

    “JESUS CHRIST does not dwell where sin is not condemned, where it is celebrated…”|

    Thus, Christ cannot dwell in your heart. Your last paragraph is about you.

  267. “11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.”

    I Timothy 2. You are clearly disobedient.

  268. You and your peers do not tell the truth. What you and your peers actually do is lie and slander GLBTQ people, inspiring and provoking violence against them.

    People are murdered, raped, tortured as the direct and intentional fruit of ‘homosexuality is sin’, and that evil fruit you and your peers produce proves that you are false teachers, according to Jesus.

  269. I love the fact that Hidalgo and the leadership team got together over more than 18 months and listened and prayed, and even looked at the interpretation of the Bible over the years. They didn’t make this decision lightly or hurriedly. Bless them for that.

  270. Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus20:13; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 17-20; 1 Corinthians 7:2; Romans 1:26-28; 1 Timothy 1:8-11; Mark 10:6-9. In fact Jesus even said in the “red letters” that homosexuality defiles men. Mathhew 15:19-20. The Greek word used here is “porneia” which includes all sexual sins like homosexuality.

    God has decreed homosexuality as sin. Your dismissing the Word of God is the same method Satan used to deceive mankind. Did God really say? Yes he did, and you are in rebellion against him.

  271. Disobedient for quoting scripture?
    I am totally against women teaching and or preaching, but quoting scripture?!!! Seems harsh.

  272. Take it up with Paul. Jackie and evangelicals play the literalist – when they judge others, so they get judged by that standard.

  273. “Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus20:13;”

    So, first off, you have bound yourself for all eternity to the laws in Leviticus – if you break even one of them, you are beyond redemption. That is what Paul and Jesus taught. And there is no way you have or will keep all of Levitical law.

    Second, neither of these passages are about homosexuality. Both describe a married man (ish) cheating on his wife (ishshah) in her bed (mishkap) with a priest (zakar). So your interpretation is fraudulent and damning sin.

    Third, the second passage demands the death penalty. By applying these, wrongly, you’ve committed murder in your thoughts and words – seven hundred million counts of murder, more or less, and according to Jesus, that is the same as committing ‘in the flesh’. What is more, dogtags, you’ve indicated that your god demands human sacrifice, and that you are willing to kill millions of people to appease your god. That is beyond evil. Frankly, what you encourage here – the slaughter of hundreds of millions of people, is orders of magnitude worse that what the nazis did.

    And this sick belief you’ve asserted actually does get people murdered, and raped, and tortured. You are responsible for that violence.

    ” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11″
    Wrong again. Neither of the words that Paul used here, that evil people translate as ‘homosexual’ or some variant thereof, were used in that way in Paul’s day. There were many words Paul could have used, that his readers would have understood as referring to homosexuality in some way, Paul did not use any of those words:
    http://www.gaychristian101.com/what-words-could-paul-have-used-if-he-intended-to-condemn-homosexuality.html
    “If Paul intended to condemn homosexuality, he could have used a word
    from the following list to make his point. Yet instead of using these
    words, Paul coined a new Greek word, arsenokoitai or arsenokoites, from the arsenokoit stem. Thanks for taking time to educate yourself by exploring the textual links.

    Some people believe that Paul coined the Greek word arsenokoitai, from the words arsenos koiten, found in Lev 20:13 in the Septuagint,
    a Greek translation of the Old Testament, where the biblical, cultural,
    historical and religious context is temple prostitution.

    There is not a shred of objective historical evidence to support the belief that anyone in the first century AD understood arsenokoitai to refer to male and female homosexuality in general or used arsenokoitai with that meaning.”

    (There are seventeen words on the list)

    “If Paul had used one of these words in Romans 1:26-27 or 1 Corinthians
    6:9 or 1 Timothy 1:10, we could be reasonably certain of his meaning.
    However, Paul did not use any of these words, suggesting he had some-
    thing else in mind, like rape, interspecies sex or shrine prostitution,
    when he coined his interesting new Greek word, arsenokoitai.

    Paul intended to remind his readers of the real meaning of arsenokoitai,
    based on the way first century Jews understood Leviticus 20:13.
    Therefore modern readers need to remind themselves that in the first
    century, Jewish religious leaders understood arsenos-koiten as used in
    Leviticus 20:13, as condemning shrine prostitutes and the sex rituals which accompanied their worship of false gods.

    There is not a shred of objective historical evidence
    that anyone in the first century AD understood arsenokoitai to refer to
    male and female homosexuality in general or used arsenokoitai with that
    meaning.”

    So no, neither malakoi nor arsenokoite are about homosexuals. But that is not the only thing that damns you, dogtags. You see, lists are comprised of things that are related, but homosexuality has nothing in common with anything else on the list, in either version. So you are equating our God given innate capacity for love and intimacy with murder, stealing, addiction, patricide, and so on. That is slander, and as a slanderer, dogtags, you are condemned by these two very passages, and others. You will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, unless you repent.

    Continued in a subsequent post.

  274. “1 Corinthians 7:2;
    You commit several sins with this. First of course, you’ve raped it out of context,

    “Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3”

    Conveniently, you’ve left out the first verse, where Paul states that it is good for men not to have sexual relations with a woman. Guess what – gay men don’t have sexual relations with a woman, so they are doing good. Paul is actually calling you and your peers to lifelong celibacy. Unless you are living that, and live it your entire life, you cannot credibly use this passage to condemn homosexuals. It makes no mention of us. It talks about heterosexuals. Further, the term rendered as ‘sexual immorality’ – and homosexual sex is no more intrinsically sexually immoral than heterosex is, is porneia. It refers to prostitution, and metaphorically to idolatry.

    It condemns you and your peers, dogtag. We’ve already seen how you practice idoltary by arguing that your false god demands human sacrifice, when you invoked Lev 20:13.

    “Romans 1:26-28;”

    Once again, the common sin that people you fall into so much – raping verses out of context. Let’s start by looking at what you deliberately left out:

    “18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
    power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from
    what has been made, so that people are without excuse. ”

    Paul begins by saying that people like you have no excuse, God’s nature is revealed by the Creation itself – and that creation, dogtags, includes homosexuality in more than a thousand species of life. The Creation shows that God does not favor heterosexuality above other forms of sexuality and reproduction. In fact, the majority of life on earth is not heterosexual, it doesn’t even have gender. The Creation is very diverse in the matter of sexuality, just from the tiny portion, earth, that we know about. The majority of life is asexual, and the next most common form of sexuality is various kinds of hermaphrodism – having the sexual organs of both genders. Separate genders and heterosexuality are a poor third, and include species in which individuals change genders, species in which most individuals never reproduces, and species in which some are homosexual. The Creation itself proves you wrong.

    “21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave
    thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts
    were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this,”

    Here we have an explicit description of idolatry, and it is the context for the verses you raped out of context as the phrase ‘because of this’ shows.

    Paul is describing the fertility religions of Rome, in which people had sex with priests and priestesses in order to win the blessing of their deity. And of course Paul would condemn that specific manifestation of sexuality – one that includes heterosexual sex acts. It is a form of “works righteousness”, which Paul rebukes, and more importantly, it introduces exploitation and coercion into people’s relationship with the Divine, with God.

    So you deliberately tried to deceive people by leaving out the explicit context of the verses you raped out of their setting. Now about those passages. Paul uses the phrase ‘physikos chresis’ – to describe people going against their “nature” by having sex with someone of their own gender. The problem is, Paul is not talking about universal nature, as evil people claim. Physikos is about personal nature, innate, instinctive. Chresis means the sexual use of. Homosexuals, dogtag, do not have a physikos chresis directed at the opposite gender. No one should have to explain that to you at this point in time – but clearly it is necessary.

    Further, when Paul writes of committing shameful acts – for homosexuals, engaging in heterosexual sex is shameful and degrading. Were we as crass as you, we’d insist that it is heterosexual sex that is sin, because it is degrading and shameful, among other things.

    So when Paul writes of people abandoning or exchanging their innate sexual use of the opposite sex – Paul, if he is credible, cannot possibly be talking about homosexuals. Homosexuals cannot ‘exchange’ or ‘abandon’ something they don’t have. Bisexuals, by the way, do not have to exchange or abandon sexual use of one gender for the other. Paul is talking about heterosexuals, engaged in temple prostitution, being coerced to go against their nature to please a false god.

    And you, dogtags, and your peers, you attempt to force homosexuals to go against their innate nature, their physikos chresis directed at their own gender, in order to please you and your false god.

    Which is why the next passage describes people like you, and Fred Phelps, and Pat Robertson, and every person who committed a hate crime against a GLBTQ person, far, far, far, far more than it ever fits GLBTQ people:

    “28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.
    They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”

    That is you and your peers. The examples are all over the news, all over this page, all over the internet. But we still haven’t reached the actual point Paul was driving to:

    “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.”

    You have no excuse, dogtags. You are an idolater, you worship your sexual orientation, believing that it makes you superior to hundreds of millions of people, and you call of those people to be executed as blood sacrifices to your idol.

    “2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

    5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are
    storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” ”

    And what have you done? You and your peers have created a depraved prejudice, one that produces murder and rape. You’ve called for some seven hundred million people to be slaughtered, sacrificed as blood offerings to your false god. You’ve slandered those people and their relationships, and you’ve sinned against God and humanity.

    Continued in yet another post.

  275. “1 Timothy 1:8-11;” I’ve covered this already in the discussion of I Cor 6.

    “Mark 10:6-9”

    There’s not a word here that rationally condemns homosexuality. Your use of this passage is dishonest, unless you want to convince people that you do not know the difference between gender and sexual orientation.

    Further, you’re committing fraud again, by taking the passage out of context:
    “2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”

    3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.

    4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”

    5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,[b] 8 and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

    So dogtags, you’ve taken a passage that explicitly forbids divorce, and raped it and perverted into something else entirely.

    Now millions of conservative, homophobic Christians are divorced, and remarried. They are adulterers, according to this passage. Perhaps you are, we’ll never know the truth on that. But the description of heterosexual attraction in this passage does not indicate that homosexuality is a sin.

    And it cannot be. You see, dogtags, the Bible tells us that God does not show favoritism, and that those who do, are lawbreakers. Any theology that allows for heterosexual sex, and condemns homosexual sex, is favoritism. Your theology is wrong, sinful and evil, because it claims that God favors heterosexuals over homosexuals.

    34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. Acts 10.
    Romans 2:11

    For God does not show favoritism.

    Colossians 3:25

    Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

    1 Timothy 5:21

    I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels,
    to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of
    favoritism.

    James 2:1My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.

    James 2:9

    But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

    So dogtags, you and your peers, by showing favoritism toward yourselves and other heterosexuals, and against homosexuals, are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. In addition to your other sins – the slander, the idolatry, the murder in thought and word, practicing human sacrifice to an idol in thought and word – your favoritism alone condemns you.

    ” In fact Jesus even said in the “red letters” that homosexuality defiles
    men. Mathhew 15:19-20. The Greek word used here is “porneia” which
    includes all sexual sins like homosexuality.”

    And now you lie about Jesus and slander homosexuals. As I pointed out, porneia refers to prostitution – dishonest people have inflated its meaning. By equating homosexuality with prostitution, you’ve again committed the sin of slander and barred yourself from the Kingdom of Heaven.

    “God has decreed homosexuality as sin.”

    No. None of the passages you cited say that, nowhere in the Bible does God say “homosexuality is sin”. If God did, then God would be unjust, evil, a false god. It would be favoritism, and it would contradict what the Creation itself reveals.

    You decreed that homosexuality is sin. But you are not God, as much as you act as if you were.

    “Your dismissing the Word of God is the same method Satan used to deceive mankind. ”

    Oh slanderer, I did not dismiss the Word of God – which by the way, is not the Bible, but a title for Jesus Christ. So you’ve sinned against me with that false accusation.

    “Did God really say? Yes he did, and you are in rebellion against him.”

    So, no, you are flat out lying. None of the passages are examples of God saying “homosexuality is sin”.

  276. Now, the other side, the side that condemns you.

    I’ve already covered the issue of favoritism, and how your interpretation of these passages demonstrates favoritism, idolatry, and the sin of slander and bearing false witness. Let’s start with Jesus.

    In Matthew 7:15-23, Jesus gives us a test for recognizing false teachers, the principle applies to false teaching as well, since the two are inseparable.

    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

    Jesus tells us that we can recognize false teachers by what they produce – they produce evil fruit. Basically, he’s invoking cause and effect.

    The fruit of the belief ‘homosexuality is sin’, and those who teach it, dogtags, is entirely evil. The belief exists for the sole purpose of encouraging heterosexuals in the sin of pride by telling them that God favors them over homosexuals. The belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is a manifestation of the sin of pride. It produces murder, rape, torture, slander and lies, violence of every kind, systemic injustice and brutality.

    That violence is well-documented, and no one who has access to the internet, as you do, has any excuse for being oblivious or ignorant about the cause and effect relationship between the depraved belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ and the violence inflicted on GLBTQ people. After all, you asserted that we are to be slaughtered as blood offerings to your god, when you invoked Lev 20:13 to falsely judge and condemn us to death.

    So by Christ’s own test, you are wrong, the belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is wrong. And because you are a false teacher, if you do not repent, then Christ will say to you “I know you not”.

    There’s more, of course. In Matthew 25:31-46, the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus tells us that however we treat the oppressed, we treat Him. He clearly and deliberately identifies himself with the oppressed in society. So when you have reviled and slandered GLBTQ people here, you’ve done that to Jesus.

    You are the one actually in rebellion, dogtags. Jesus tells you to love, you hate, you demonize, you tear others down so you can feel superior. You incite murder and violence.

    And what does God say? Well, in Proverbs 6 we have this:

    16 There are six things the Lord hates,
    seven that are detestable to him:
    17 haughty eyes,
    a lying tongue,
    hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
    feet that are quick to rush into evil,
    19 a false witness who pours out lies
    and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

    You’ve committed all seven of these, in thought or word if not in deed, as have your peers, those who teach the evil belief ‘homosexuality is sin’. So while homosexuality and homosexual sex are not on this list, your behavior, your lifestyle choice – is condemned here.

    I was amused to see that you didn’t try to use the Sodom story, perhaps you’ve already encountered the evidence refuting that abuse of Scripture. But Ezekiel 16 has much to say about you:

    “20 “‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.”

    The word rendered here as detestable, is the same one found in the Proverbs passage, and in the Leviticus passages your incorrectly cited, to’ebah. Now you and your peers sacrifice GLBTQ people as food for idols, killing us in thought, word and deed to appease your false god. This is the real sin in the issue of homosexuality and God – the human sacrifice that you and your peers engage in. And in Ezekiel 16 God accuses the people of Jerusalem of that sin.

    “36 This is what the Sovereign Lord
    says: Because you poured out your lust and exposed your naked body in
    your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable
    idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood,”

    More than one, God uses the word “to’ebah” to describe the behavior – human sacrifice – that you are promoting.

    “48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done. 49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. ”

    And there it is – your sin, ‘detestable things’ – human sacrifice, is the sin of Sodom. Arrogant, overfed, unconcerned about the violence you and your peers inflict on other people, your sin is the sin of Sodom.

    So, at this point, all that is left is to ask you to make a sincere and contrite confession of your sins against GLBTQ people, God and humanity, to repent of those sins, and to ask God, and everyone else, for forgiveness.

    Will you do so?

  277. On another angle, dogtags, the very nature of your post is sinful.

    You quote Bible passages raped out of context, as if no one had ever seen these used this way before. In doing so, you ignore and dismiss the reams of scholarship that exists, and has existed for decades, disputing the traditional interpretation of them, your use of them. That is the sin of pride.

    Essentially, you indicates that you assume that because you cite a passage without a word of argumentation, it must mean what you think it does and everyone else must see it that way or they are in rebellion against God. That is an extreme example of the sin of pride.

    The passages you cited have been disputed at enormous length up and down the internet, but you make no effort at all – and probably won’t now, to address any of the many challenges to the traditional interpretation. That is lazy, and incompetent, it is arrogant and dishonest.

    It indicates that you are not interested in the truth of the matter, you are only interested in using these passages to demonize hundreds of millions of people so you can feel exalted, favored.

    God does not prefer heterosexuals to homosexuals. You’re gonna have to realize that you are not innately superior to anyone, for any reason, least all because of your sexual orientation.

  278. What demon has poisoned your mind? Your cited scriptures do not refute that fact that homosexuality is sin that separates people from God and condemns them to hell. You have created a god in your own image and have worshiped this demon. Then you take the sacred Word of God to promote the lies of your demon-god and you lead others to hell with you. You are wicked.

  279. You are full of accusations but everyone of them is a lie. Your first lie is that homosexuality is about who some is. It is not. Homosexuality is about how someone behaves. The only dispute from the passages I cite comes from those who insist God did not really say what he plainly says. Your rebellion against God will condemn you to hell.

  280. “You are full of accusations but everyone of them is a lie”

    No, not one them is a lie. Your empty dismissal is further sin.

    ‘Your first lie is that homosexuality is about who some is. It is not.”

    So you are lying about the lives of hundreds of millions of people, pretending out of extreme pride, that you know the lives of GLBTQ people better than we do.

    “Homosexuality is about how someone behaves. ”

    No, slanderer, it is not. A virgin homosexual is still a homosexual, ask any of us. dogtags, slanderer, you are lying to me about my own life. I know you are wrong.

    ‘ The only dispute from the passages I cite comes from those who insist God did not really say what he plainly says.”

    Nice lie, slanderer. Actually, it is you and your evil peers who insist that God did not say what God plainly says. Liar, God does not plainly condemn homosexuality. No where in the Bible does God do that.

    But God plainly condemns you and your peers for your slander, your lies, your false accusations, your pride.

    ” Your rebellion against God will condemn you to hell.”

    I’m not the one rebelling, slanderer.

  281. “What demon has poisoned your mind?”

    Well, now you’ve done it. You have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, committing the one unforgivable sin in Christianity.

    You see, slanderer, it is the Holy Spirit that has taught me that you and your peers are completely wrong.

    ” Your cited scriptures do not refute that fact that homosexuality is
    sin that separates people from God and condemns them to hell.”

    Nice lie. Homosexuality is not a sin, your sick belief is not fact, but evil. It is you and your peers that separate people from God. You and your peers drive millions of people, gay and straight, from God.

    ” You have created a god in your own image and have worshiped this demon.”

    No, that would be you. But again, in your accusation, you are actually calling the Holy Spirit a demon, so you’ve committed the only unforgivable sin. Mark 3

    “22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

    23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

    30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

    That’s what you’ve done.

    ” Then you take the sacred Word of God to promote the lies of your
    demon-god and you lead others to hell with you. You are wicked.”

    It doesn’t matter now, of course, because you have blasphemed the Holy Spirit – the Holy Spirit that has taught me and millions of other people that the belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is an evil and demonic false teaching, one that bears only evil fruit –

    but you are again a slanderer, and as such, will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. It is, apparently even pointless for you to repent at this point, your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit condemns you beyond forgiveness.

    So here’s the truth behind your screaming at me – you cannot refute a word of what I posted with facts, logic or reason, or Scripture. But you embrace, allow, condone, encourage the violence and brutality inflicted on GLBTQ people as the direct and deliberate enforcement of the sick belief you are spewing up.

    Look at your posts – not a word indicating that you care, at all, about the fact that people are murdered or raped because of what you teach. Such utter heartlessness on your part – it means you simply cannot be a follower of Christ.

    I went into great detail to disprove your deceitful use of those texts – and all I get back from you is more sin. That alone proves that you and your peers are not serving God.

    When your belief requires you to sin constantly, to slander, to murder in your words and thoughts as you most certainly done, all of the sake of your ego –

    you are not, cannot be serving God. The belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is entirely evil, it produces only evil fruit, and those who teach are most certainly false teachers.

  282. “Jesus reiterated God’s plan for marriage in Matthew 19:5”

    Actually, daniel, this passage is explicitly about forbidding heterosexual divorce. It does not require homosexuals to be celibate, or to live fraudulently in heterosexual relationships.

  283. It was not Jesus’ message. It was your message.

    “I’ve been single and celibate my whole life.”

    Prove it, here. You cannot, and you’ve been caught being dishonest once already.

  284. If I were to interpret scripture like you do I would conclude the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not a sin. But this is the last answer I will give a fool, as I do not wish to be perceived the same as you.

  285. ” But this is the last answer I will give a fool,”

    Let’s start there. Jesus said:”

    But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be
    subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
    Matthew 5:22

    Of course, given your unforgivable sin, what difference does it make now?

    “If I were to interpret scripture like you do I would conclude the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not a sin.”

    That is not a sane reply, after all, dogtags, I’ve pointed out that blasphemy against Holy Spirit is sin, one you have committed. So my method of interpretation leads to the very conclusion you said it would not.

    “as I do not wish to be perceived the same as you. ”
    Of course, you wish to be perceived as superior. But you are not.

    It is a shame that you have made so much unending trouble for yourself – by blaspheming the Holy Spirit, just to feed your ego.

    In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus tells us what happens to those who oppress others:

    “41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’”

    Matthew 24: 41-43.

  286. Lev 20:10 says to execute adulterers, do you, Nate? Naw, you just use the bible to promote prejudice. But, it’s good you are a gluttonous hypocrite (is gluttony still a sin?) because if we started installing Old Testament Law as US civil law, we would be as barbaric as Sharia law nations (Sharia means ‘turn scripture verses into current laws’).

  287. Yes, that bit of ‘wisdom’ to kill kids who are disrespectful appears in four or five parts of the bible, including Matthew 15:4 NLT

  288. Why is love a perversion? My love for my life-partner is not a perversion, it is pure love and our relationship is Christ-based. We are blessed by God, loved by God and unless you have experience with our real-love, and unless you know of our relationship and our love for God, how can you judge our relationship. I promise you, God loves us and we do NOT have a perverted relationship. Do not judge people or things you are not familiar with. Thanks & God bless you my friend.

  289. Michael, I originally posted a long-heartfelt message of thanks, but reading the posts I found a plethora of hate filled, foul-mouthed, know-it-all, alleged Christian responses. These are the haters that keep LGBT people from Christ, and these same people would not respect my heart and my love for/of God. I love God with every piece of my being, and I can’t post my love to swine.

    I do want to say thank you. I pray someday, God opens the hearts of His true believers. I promise God’s blessings are available for ALL of His Children regardless.

  290. Thank you for that level-headed, non-caustic response. I know this is a personal and an emotional issue for some. I think we need to define terms. I am not talking about “love.” You are mistaking the sexual act for love. Having an affection for someone is not perverted. But, we are not to act on attractions that lead to sin. In fact, to dwell on these attractions could itself be the sin of lust. Scripture is crystal clear that acting upon homosexual attractions is sin. Acting upon an adulterous impulse is sin. The act of homosexual sex and other forms of fornication is not love. In actuality it is quite selfish. God has created sex AND has limited the enjoyment if it to the confines of a marriage between one man and one woman. The sexual act of homosexuality, like the sexual act of adultery, is a perversion of what God has designed. God calls homosexuality sin. Sin separates us from God. Jesus died to free us from our sin. Sin is so hortible that it cost the death of the Son of God. God is love, and loves you, but God defines the conditions for receiving his love. You don’t. You cannot have homosexuality and Jesus at the same time.

  291. What isn’t given is a definition of what it means to be evangelical. It’s certainly true that many “Christian” leaders are adopting our culture’s new view of marriage, but if you asked these same leaders about their other theological beliefs, you’d find that they are hardly conservative or evangelical at all. What are their views on Scripture, the person and work of Christ, salvation, and other basic Christian doctrines? I can say that I’ve never once met or heard of a Christian who affirms historically evangelical doctrine (inerrancy/inspiration of Scripture, salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, etc.) who doesn’t also affirm the sinfulness of homosexual behavior.

    So in order to make the claim that many evangelicals are becoming LGBT-affirming, you must first redefine ‘evangelical’ to mean essentially nothing.

  292. I’m saddened to see this but not surprised. I think many emergent church types are falling into this trap because ultimately, their message was always about how do I get people to like the church and how do we get then to like Jesus, instead of how do we help people understand and share the love of God for all its worth and worship and trust Him.

  293. I am a lesbian. I am also a virgin, and celibate. At 44. I’m sexually more pure than you are, I am sure of it. I am also a Christian, covered in the blood of Christ.

  294. 36 years. I hope to fall in love like that someday. Bless you and your husband, Richard. <3

  295. In actuality, if the original meaning of words used by Paul is considered, especially since the word homosexual was not in existence during Paul’s writings, you would know that Paul as not referring to homosexuals in his letters. 1 Corinthians 6:9 being an example. He was referring to the specified act of those who rape young boys inside the context of and outside the context of pagan temple sex rituals.Now, I can assume, you will not believe that, due to your extended indoctrination from day one to present day, but, at least, now you know. What you do with what you know is on you.

  296. In actuality, if the original meaning of words used by Paul was considered, especially since the word homosexual was not in existence during Paul’s writings, you would know that Paul as not referring to homosexuals in his letters, like 1 Corinthians 6:9. He was referring to the specified act of those who rape young boys inside the context of and outside the context of pagan temple sex rituals.Now, I can assume, you will not believe that, due to your extended indoctrination from day one to now, but, at least, now you know. What you do with what you know is on you. What if you’re lying to them, Sandi?

  297. lol…..that’s the best one I’ve heard yet! lol

  298. lol…..So, in God’s word, to His people, to help them create His church on Earth, God is going to tell us about some pagan homosexuality, and it isn’t ok for them, but it’s ok for His people? lol lol

  299. Honey, if you are not practicing homosexuality, why refer to yourself as such. I never knew that I didn’t like fish until I tried it. How do you know you would like lesbianism? Excuses. Either you want to be a Christian, or you want to be a sinner, my friend.
    If you were a Christian, you would be a new creature in Christ and the old would be gone. Please, don’t play games with yourself.

    When a person becomes a Christian, God gives him a completely new moral and spiritual capability that a mind apart from Christ could never achieve. The new birth results from God’s sovereignty coming down to a sinner and by His grace cleansing him, and planting His spirit within him, and giving him a completely new spiritual nature. He then has “put on the new man which is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness”. (Ephesians 4:24) John MacArthur

  300. Thank you, Traci. And I wish you all the best.

  301. I really don’t get what you’re saying. Isn’t okay for whom, but okay for whom?

  302. Do not be fooled ! God does not, nor will he ever bless that which He esteems worthy of death. A Born Again Child of God, according to Scripture, is indwelt by the three persons of the Holy Trinity…The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit….which is the very source of the conscience of God. I can assure you, you have seared your conscience with a hot iron. The Lord God of all creation will never contradict His word. According to Scripture…same-sex relationships will NEVER enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Stop believing that lie that God is blessing your same sex relationship.Read the WHOLE scripture.

  303. Here is a question that comes to my mind. Where in the Bible is same-sex marriage relationship ever spoken of? Jesus talked about divorce (between opposite sex), are people still married in heaven (husband/male and wife/female) and there are more examples, but is there any where the relationship is between 2 people of the same sex and that it is equal with marriage between a man and a wowman?

    Another question. If you except marriage between L’s and G’s would you allow for marriage of B’s? If two Bisexual’s want to marry, can they have 2 other partners?

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