Photo courtesy of Jen Hatmaker

The politics of Jen Hatmaker: Trump, Black Lives Matter, gay marriage and more

(RNS) Best-selling author and HGTV star Jen Hatmaker says her first political memory is of being at a church service and finding a voters guide in her bulletin. The pamphlet did not strike her as odd or off-putting, despite encouraging congregants to "vote straight-ticket Republican." As she says: "The way it had always been explained to me was the Republican platform is Christian. The end."

RELATED: How Christian women are making 'holy mischief' in the church

But much has changed since Hatmaker's childhood in blue-collar suburban Wichita, Kan. The evangelical movement in which she was raised has become more politically diverse and less willing to overtly align with one party. And Hatmaker has changed, too. She has voiced strong political opinions on her Facebook page and took time during her multi-city Belong Tour to criticize Donald Trump.

Here, we discuss her political views, and Hatmaker does not hold back. The interview was edited for length and clarity.

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You said you grew up in a Republican Christian context, but what about today? Do you consider yourself a conservative or a liberal?

The most honest answer is probably that I am a left-leaning moderate. I have voted for Republican candidates, I have voted for Democratic candidates. I never vote a straight ticket, ever, in any election.

Image courtesy of Thomas Nelson

Image courtesy of Thomas Nelson

 This image is available for web and print publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

Speaking of voting, you've been critical of Donald Trump. What is it about him that bothers you as a Christian woman?

I hardly know where to start. I find him absolutely, positively, thoroughly unfit for the presidency. He does not understand politics, he does not understand policy, he does not understand the world, he does not understand how our government works. I don't believe that he has America's best interests at heart. He lacks the diplomacy that is required of a United States president. I cannot imagine any scenario in which he could represent the American people on an international stage with any sense of integrity or diplomacy.

As a believer, I'm devastated at how successful he has been in pandering to our lowest, basest selves. The selves that are willing to be openly racist. The selves that are afraid of anybody that does not fit our demographic. The selves that close our arms and our hearts to victims and vulnerable people. He has exposed the darkest corners of our human hearts and then given them free rein to live out in the open. That scares me.

Then, of course, there's all the low-hanging fruit that we find in the media almost every other second. His history with women and his disturbing comments. They're not just unpresidential, they're disgraceful. They're disgraceful for my seventh-grader. These are not OK.

Who do you plan to vote for?

My initial thought is vote for whoever is not Donald Trump and can win. It's interesting, though, to watch Evan McMullin rise up right now as a conservative candidate, and I'm paying attention to that. I like him. I think he's got a lot of integrity, and I like his policies.

What about Hillary? Would you be open to voting for her?


But Hillary has her share of problems too, right?

That to me is where the Christian family is struggling right now, because in terms of character assassination, both of our candidates have some dirt. It has become a matter of which is worse, and it's a terrible predicament.

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Politically speaking, do you support gay marriage?

From a civil rights and civil liberties side and from just a human being side, any two adults have the right to choose who they want to love. And they should be afforded the same legal protections as any of us. I would never wish anything less for my gay friends.

From a spiritual perspective, since gay marriage is legal in all 50 states, our communities have plenty of gay couples who, just like the rest of us, need marriage support and parenting help and Christian community. They are either going to find those resources in the church or they are not.

Not only are these our neighbors and friends, but they are brothers and sisters in Christ. They are adopted into the same family as the rest of us, and the church hasn't treated the LGBT community like family. We have to do better.

RELATED: On LGBT issues, how can Christians disagree in a loving way?

If an LGBT friend of yours got married, would you attend that wedding?

I would attend that wedding with gladness, and I would drink champagne. I want the very best for my gay friends. I want love and happiness and faithfulness and commitment and community. Yes. That's an easy answer.

And how would you respond if one of your children were gay?

I think we would parent that child exactly the same as the rest of them. Which is to say, we would always be on their side and in their corner and for them and with them. We want for all of our kids the same thing: faithful, committed marriage and a beautiful family that is committed to God and the church. I would have the same standard across the board, no matter what.

You mention faithfulness and God. Do you think an LGBT relationship can be holy?

I do. And my views here are tender. This is a very nuanced conversation, and it's hard to nail down in one sitting. I've seen too much pain and rejection at the intersection of the gay community and the church. Every believer that witnesses that much overwhelming sorrow should be tender enough to do some hard work here.

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What about that other hot-button issue? Where do you stand on abortion?

I've always had a pro-life ethic and still do. But my pro-life ethic has infinitely expanded from just simply being anti-abortion. For me, pro-life includes the life of the struggling single mom who decides to have that kid and they're poor. It means being pro-refugee. It means being pro-Muslim. My pro-life ethic, while still not in favor of abortion and certainly not in favor of late-term abortions, has expanded.

There's something incredibly disingenuous about a Christian community that screams about abortion, but then refuses to support the very programs that are going to stabilize vulnerable, economically fragile families that decide to keep their kids. Some Christians want the baby born, but then don't want to help the mama raise that baby. We don't want to provide the scaffolding for them to thrive and be successful. That, to me, makes no sense at all.

Jen and her family starred in "My Big Family Renovation" on HGTV. - Image courtesy of Jen Hatmaker

Jen and her family starred in "My Big Family Renovation" on HGTV.  Image courtesy of Jen Hatmaker

You're a mother of a multiethnic family. What are your thoughts on Black Lives Matter?

I'm a supporter of Black Lives Matter, and I am deeply embedded in that conversation. I am learning so much from people of color right now, specifically my black mentors and leaders that I've sort of put myself under. This was not a topic I even considered 10 years ago.

But now I've read devastating books like "The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander. It's shattering, that piece of work. Brandon and I went down to Montgomery and sat for two days under the leadership of Bryan Stevenson, who wrote "Just Mercy," and we learned so much from a legal standpoint. This conversation is wrought with tension. But I feel like this is a big part of my task and work, probably forever.

As a mother of children of color, do you fear for your children?

Yes. Both of my youngest two kids are Ethiopian. I can't tell you how many nights I have stayed up worrying, because right now, my son Ben is 13. He's adorable. Everybody loves him. He's funny. He's little, and he's not threatening, but in four years he's going to be 17. Right now, he is afforded covering by white parents. He borrows from our privilege because we are a package deal, but in a blink he'll be walking around this world on his own.

My son is good to the core. When I think about him being viewed as criminal, dangerous, threatening, in any scenario -- driving, walking, changing lanes, hanging around with his friends -- I could just come unraveled. It terrifies me. I could cry my eyes out right now.

With great sorrow, we have sat down and had the talk with Ben that millions of black parents have had with their sons on how to walk and talk and respond to a police officer. Because all evidence and documented research tells me that he is far more at risk to be stopped, to be pulled over, to be frisked, to be searched, to be charged, to be manhandled, to be indicted, to be sentenced. It just terrifies me for my family and for all moms and all dads who are sending their black kids out into the world.

(Jonathan Merritt is senior columnist for RNS and a contributing writer for The Atlantic)


  1. Rachel Held Evans in a different wrapper. #nothanks

  2. Well said and well lived, Jen! Thankful for your bold and gracious leadership. Proud to be your friend and proud to be a disciple alongside of you. May the Lord use your words to heal, renew, embolden, call, and set free many. Eshet chayil, woman of valour!

  3. How devastating, this successful author and TV personality has tried and failed to win the approval of the famous and important Will Grif. Absolute career suicide for her. If only she would have paid attention the example of other failed Will Grif endorsement-chaser, Rachel Held Evans…

  4. This is simply beautiful. Thanks, Jen, for your heart and your commitment to the love and justice of Jesus.

  5. JH has become a liberal shill. She dismisses “some dirt” on a woman with decades-long record of premeditated fraud and deceit, yet is completely offended by a man who merely has political accusers. Neither is perfect, for sure, but she is clearly prioritizing liberal politics over principles. She has slid all the way left on LBGT issues, abandoning core Biblical truth. She has lost me for good.

  6. It’s safe to say that Jen Hatmaker has gone liberal. Some of her positions and opinions are clearly no longer biblical.

    (And by the way, she’s giving Black Lives Matter a free pass on some really bad things. That’s seriously not good.)

    I would NOT describe her as an evangelical, though I would descibe her as a Christian.

    We are living in bad times, soon to get worse. Merritt’s article explored the question of “What does Jen Hatmaker believe and not-believe.” But an equally important issue is “What do YOU, the reader, believe or not-believe? What are YOUR positions, and why?”

  7. I read these statements of horror about “late term abortions,” and think: do these kind, intelligent people just not know who, where, why, or how these take place, so they’ve just imagined a Trump dream of an otherwise healthy child being pulled right outta the mothers stomach, because she woke up one day and thought, “Whythehellnot?”

    Please. Read up. And I don’t mean the slanted “life” sites all over the web. Read about women whose very-much-wanted children have half a heart, or a brain outside their bodies. According to the Center for Disease Control According data from 2012, 65.8 percent of abortions took place within the first eight weeks of pregnancy, and 91.4 percent occurred within the first 13 weeks. Just 7.2 percent of abortions were performed between 14 and 20 weeks gestation, which means just 1.3 percent of abortions took place at or after 21 weeks pregnancy. Shouldn’t we recognize that one percent means these are exceptional cases, and before we get too worked up, we ought to at least know what an “exceptional case” looks like.
    This is a documentary about the doctors involved in such procedures. Watching it we might understand that forming an opinion from the comfort of our sofas about a very particular situation that a very particular woman and her family find herself in, well, perhaps it shouldn’t be a topic for a popular vote?

  8. “Some of her positions and opinions are no longer biblical”

    this is such an unfortunate statement. as if any of us are “biblical” in any consistent way; it seems we should strive to do all the good we can by all the means we can, and to show radical love and hospitality, whether or not it fits your personal definition of “biblical”.

  9. The amount of theological pretzel-twisting required to come away with the idea that gay sexual relationships and marriage are biblical and holy boggles the mind. I agree that the church hasn’t loved LBGTQ folks well. Like, at all. I don’t understand where fixing that requires rewriting or ignoring thousands of years of Jewish and Christian understanding of doctrine on sexuality and sexual activity. There has to be some ability to find that ground where you don’t lose your moorings morally while opening your heart and lives to people who have these feelings. I wish Jen would find that as well.

  10. Certainly your loss, Will. I am so happy for her witness and her voice. We need more, not fewer, like her.

  11. Sure, nobody’s batting 1000, and we are all works in progress. We all should do as much good as we can.

    But Hatmaker is NOT doing any good at all by ditching her own Bible on the gay marriage issue.

    She’s not even “doing good” for gay people, with this anti-biblical, God-denying gay-marriage position that she’s now pushing.

    1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1 Cor 10:13 are huge promises of hope and healing and deliverance in Christ. But Jen Hatmaker is hindering same-sex-attracted people from cashing in on them.

  12. Because it takes a great deal of contortion, hemming and hawing for the notion of treating all people with basic respect and dignity as human beings? The idea that such ideas have no place in one’s religious belief speaks badly of that belief.

  13. “yet is completely offended by a man who merely has political accusers.”

    And about 100+ lawsuits in the federal court system, one of the worst business credit ratings out there, and several pending criminal actions naming him or his enterprises.

    “She has slid all the way left on LBGT issues, abandoning core Biblical truth. She has lost me for good.”

    The concept of “love thy neighbor” and compassion towards all has no place in Biblical Christian belief whatsoever! I really think the person who thought those up had a few screws loose. /sarcasm.

  14. Christianity long ago lost its moral moorings ESPECIALLY in regard to gay people. They lost those moorings when they elevated homosexuality to THE EXTRA SPECIAL SUPER DUPER ICKY SIN.

    They especially lost them when the knowledge that being gay is simply a variant of human sexuality, and not a moral question at all. And of course, the immorality of what has been done to gay people for centuries under the guise of “morality” is simply of no concern at all.

    But if you like, we could look at witch burning, slavery, oppression of women, segregation, jew hating, torture of heretics, religious wars, wars on jews, wars on catholics, wars on muslims, wars on protestants, anti-Mormon, anti-any-other-christian-but-my-type-of-true-christian.

    but only if oyu need further information about a loss of moral moorings.

  15. She has lost me for good.

    Repeating right wing slander and justifying anti gay religious bigotry as “core biblical truth” is a good indication that she never had you to begin with.

  16. I cannot disagree with your first paragraph.

    I obviously disagree with your second.

    By your third paragraph, you become a parody.

  17. This only applies if you believe that respect and dignity can only come about if one abandons their moral convictions and adopts an ethic of consent being the sole criterion of the good.

  18. You want to find exceptions and carveouts from such a basic notion as to how to treat other people, so be it. But it doesn’t do much for the idea that your beliefs are something worthy of respect or have any basis in morals/ethics.

    I find nothing relating to morality or ethics in the reactionary attitudes towards LGBT people. If anything it simply enables malicious actions. There is no moral conviction or stand taken in treating other people like garbage in service of your faith. It is simply acting badly and looking for a socially acceptable excuse for it.

  19. It’s not exceptions and carveouts. You can treat people well while still holding to basic convictions. You can disagree with people on certain actions or behaviors and not treat them nasty or subhuman. Where did we get this notion that to treat people with dignity and respect, we have to come around to agree with them on everything they do or propose?

  20. You are looking to make an exception to treating one group of people with the basic level of dignity you would treat anyone else. Of course it is a workaround avoidance for “love thy neighbor”.

    ” You can disagree with people on certain actions or behaviors and not treat them nasty or subhuman. ”

    You could, but what it really being done is that people with your POV are using religion as a pretext to ostracize, insult, discriminate or advocate the harm to LGBT people. Calling it merely “disagreement” is dishonest understatement. Calling such behavior “basic conviction” really strips the term of any meaning. As if this is something based in morals or principles, it isn’t.

    “Where did we get this notion that to treat people with dignity and respect”

    So the entire notion of “love thy neighbor” is called into question here. Your euphemistic “don’t agree with their actions” is really just an overly polite way to say bigoted against and want them out of your presence.

  21. So grateful for your voice Jen! The Gospel you preach is one that is truly good news. <3

  22. I guess she’ll just have to try harder next time Jordan, thanks. 🙂 Like Evans, success and a platform are meaningless and fleeting. They’ll both end up in the dumpster eventually.

  23. she didn’t ditch her bible. she just interprets it differently than you. if you don’t like gay marriage, you’re free to NOT get gay-married, and to teach your kids that you think it’s wrong.

    there are myriad interpretations of 1 corinthians 6:9-11, many of which do NOT believe they are condemning of non-heterosexual relationships. you can’t “pray the gay away”. 1 corinthians 10:13 is not relevant to lgbtq christians unless you assume v8 is, as well, which i and many others do not. ex-gay organizations have lost virtually all of their influence for a reason; they don’t work and, in many cases, they destroy any sense of self-worth in those who have been subjected to them. they’re abusive, and so is the entire mindset behind them.

    also, you completely lost me at “same-sex attracted”. that’s something fundamentalists say to minimize the reality of lgbtq identity.

  24. So the “life” sites are slanted, but Slate is an objective resource. LOL!!!

  25. She is worried about her Ben’s color when she should be worried about his gender. The disparity in incarceration rates and length of prison sentences is far greater between males and females than it is between Blacks and Whites.

  26. No, I’m really not. That’s you reframing the issue to suit the point you wish to argue. You have set up a litmus test that says, “unless you treat all my behaviors and desires as good and right and full-throated approval, you don’t love me,” and that is baloney. This notion that for love and respect to exist one side must abandon it’s position completely is fantasy.

  27. Jen, why doesn’t the “4% of Black Lives Matter Movement” trouble you when they call for the killing of cops or when they disrupt two pride parades in Toronto? Your outrage is very selective.

  28. Goodness, all that fawning must have worn you out and left you ready for a nap. But you go girl. Support that 4% of Black Lives Matter movement. And the next time a cop is killed, remember who was chanting, “Pigs in a blanket, fry, fry fry!”

  29. This entire conversation could have been summed up in one question… are you a cultural Marxist and do your politics trend that way? Hatmaker: yes. The end

  30. Reframing the issue? Its called being honest with what is being said and done here. Something you are desperately trying to avoid with terrible euphemisms.

    ” “unless you treat all my behaviors and desires as good and right and
    full-throated approval, you don’t love me,” and that is baloney.”

    What we are talking about here is discrimination, ostracizing people, heaping scorn, and deliberately doing people harm because they are LGBT. That is not a “disagreement with behaviors”, that is simply expressing hatred and bigotry.

    More to the point, it shows a deliberate lack of respect for the personal boundaries of others. How is one’s sexual orientation an issue for you on a personal level? It isn’t. Nobody is asking for your or your version of God’s input on the matter. Nor is is ever going to be welcomed. It is none of your business. It certainly is not a moral duty either to treat them differently either. Just simply taking the opportunity to act badly in the name of your religion.

    Respect and moral behavior would point to treating LGBT as you would any other person. With a basic level of dignity afforded to everyone. Not as a pretext for harmful and malicious behavior as you would. There is nothing moral in your “principles here”. You are looking for pretexts and excuses from even the most common courtesy and respect one gives to people as a matter of course.

  31. What you are asking is not respect for boundaries, but positive affirmation of one’s choices in law. You’re not asking for tolerance, but positive legal approval. Being left alone to love who you want to love, live with who you want to live with, make legal arrangements with whomever you wish to make legal arrangements with (be they power of attorney, inheritance, and other rights) was not in question. That is something that was already available. Those were ‘passive’ rights that LBGT people already had. What was wanted were ‘active’ rights that sought to redefine what marriage was and then use that new definition to demand acceptance from others or drive them from the public square.

    You keep tossing about words like “euphemism”, “pretext” and “excuse” but seem to have little understanding of what they actually mean.

  32. And your entire comment ended making any sense the moment you used the term cultural Marxism.
    That only exists in the imagination of extremely conservative people who no longter get to determine how other people live their lives.

  33. Why do I get the feeling you’ve ditched your Bible many a time? Like, what about the thing about casting stones..?

  34. If she’s losing evangelical wing nut support, she’s probably doing the right thing.

  35. Really? Not discriminating against people, not trying to attack them, and acting with a basic level of courtesy and dignity is this ginormous imposition on you and your beliefs? Good effing grief!! Of course it means respect for boundaries. Most notably that your religious beliefs are not a pretext to attack people.

    You feel this need to couch everything in reductive euphemisms to avoid directly addressing the issue. Rather than describe actual attitudes or actions, you simply rephrase them and pretend they are something far different. There is not an honest argument to be made by you here.

    “Being left alone to love who you want to love, live with who you want to live with, make legal arrangements with whomever you wish to make legal arrangements with (be they power of attorney, inheritance, and other rights) was not in question.”

    Now you are just being a full blown liar here. Of course such things were in question. ANY sort of consideration of LGBT rights or even treating them as people is vociferously fought by Christians like yourself. The fact of the matter, we have marriage equality nationwide specifically because laws supported by bigoted Christians to attack the rights of LGBT people were shot down by the Supreme Court as violating the Equal Protection Clause. So you are dead stinking wrong here.

    Even the recognition of the existence of LGBT people in any public manner draws ire and condemnation from your crowd. In this article its a woman saying that she would love and respect her own children if they were gay. Somehow that draws your scorn as someone who is “unbiblical”.. What LGBT wanted was to be left alone without being attacked for being LGBT. Even the slightest nod in such a direction is considered some form of religious heresy deserving of censure and attack. So don’t give me that, “they don’t really want tolerance” bull.

    How is treating all people like human beings such an imposition on you? It is very much the duty of those who take “love thy neighbor” seriously as a divine commandment.

  36. Again, you redefine terms to suit you. If anyone is employing euphemisms, it is you. I’ve attacked no one. If saying “marriage is between one man and one woman” is discriminating, they why stop at gay marriage? If the sex of the participants doesn’t matter, why should the number? Hell, why should there be any restrictions whatsoever on it so long as all are consenting adults. Consent being the only thing that matters, let’s just call anything and everything marriage and call anyone who raises an objection bigots.

    And no, such things were not in question. You can sign a living will and you can grant power of attorney for all legal and medical matters if you are incapacitated to anyone you wish. If that wasn’t enforceable, then working to make it rock solid could have been a course of action that required no changes to marriage. And who was preventing you or anyone else from having sex, living with someone, or spending life together with whoever you choose?

    And again you mischaracterize my remarks to make your arguments look better. I did not say anything about not loving and respecting one’s gay children. Go back and read my original post and show me where I even implied such a thing. Be honest for once in this conversation.

    My whole point is that one can “love thy neighbor” without agreeing or believing that affirming all their actions, beliefs and decisions are right, or accommodating all of those things in law. I can leave someone alone to make those choices. I can treat them with respect. I can mow their lawn or bring them food when they are sick. I can invite them over to dinner, and go over to their house if they invite me. I can give of my time sacrificially. I can defend them when someone hurls slurs and insults. There are myriad ways to love one’s neighbor without believing that legalizing new parameters for marriage are good or necessary.

  37. We’re all workin’ it through. Thank you massively for your thoughts, Jen, which had me smiling at one point and nearly crying (I have black grandchildren) at another. I disagreed — with much respect and with hopefully nuance — a couple times. Gay issues are complex on every side. We have fellow human beings, we have what Scripture seems to teach us (the voices of the Church as well through the centuries), and we have civil laws. On that last, we’re in agreement. On the first, ditto. The middle “bible” part, though, is one we’ll (all) have to keep dialoguing about. Sussing God’s Word on this, it is tough to come away with a thumbs-up on same-sex marriage within the Church. (I speak, however, as one who is not gay and therefore — like C. S. Lewis — admits his lack of “authority” re the issue.) The second issue? C’mon, you can like Hillary just a little more than *that*, can’t cha? #ImWithNasty

  38. I am not the one calling malicious and discriminatory behavior, “simple disagreement”. Your posts have been reductively dishonest. Rather than describe actions in general you have been couching it in nonsense phrases to remove them from their reality. That is all you. You also have been entirely dishonest as to the Christian attitudes and actions against LGBT.

    “If the sex of the participants doesn’t matter, why should the number?”

    1. Analogy is the last refuge of people who cannot argue a point on its own facts

    2. Because our marriage related laws/rights assume a binary marriage. It is not as much a moral qualm as a legal and procedural one. Until polygamists can re-draft existing laws to treat all spouses equitably, there is no need to contort our laws to fit their situation.

    ” Consent being the only thing that matters, let’s just call anything and everything marriage and call anyone who raises an objection bigots.”

    Pretty much because that is what it is. This is the most honest thing you have said and you meant it sarcastically. Consenting adults being the big one. But then again, a lot of Christian attitudes towards sexual relations really have problems with understanding the concept of consenting adults. There is a lot of minimizing and dismissal of sexual abuse and rape.

    “My whole point is that one can “love thy neighbor” without agreeing or believing that affirming all their actions, beliefs and decisions are
    right, or accommodating all of those things in law.”

    What you call “affirming all their actions, beliefs and decisions” is more honestly described as treating people like human beings with the most basic level of dignity. Again euphemism to cover up actual intentions and actions here. You can’t love thy neighbor but attack them and treat them like garbage. But that is what you are advocating.

  39. No, you’re the one calling disagreements over the nature of marriage and how certain legal accommodations can be handled “treating people like garbage.” Like I said, unless someone comes around to all your views, they are bigots. No disagreement can be considered, no compromise other than complete capitulation by the other side is acceptable. And furthermore, even if you don’t oppose such legal changes but simply want to be left out of events and ceremonies surrounding it, sorry, not doing that either.

    You are incapable of honest argumentation. You have exaggerate, engage in ridiculous hyperbole and mischaracterization of arguments, and redefine terms to suit you.

  40. A boy born with half a heart was on my basketball team a few years ago. He and his parents are still our friends. He is thirteen now. He is not a monster; he’s an amazing boy. HLHS is a treatable illness from which many children go on to have fruitful, successful lives.

  41. Calling for marriage of certain people to be banned under color of law, denying people access to government services they are entitled to, denying people goods and services in open commerce, firing people from their jobs for getting married and denying people medical care aren’t mere expressions of “disagreement”. Your expressions are dishonest and intentionally reductive. You are simply trying to put a spin on malicious, harmful behavior.

    We disagree on a key point here. I think all people deserve a basic level of dignity and respect for bring human beings. You think your religion gives you license to attack others.

    You are so full of it. You can’t even be bothered to describe what is going on with any level of detail. You think treating people like garbage becomes justifiable by calling it something else.

    There is nothing moral or principled about the actions and attitudes you want to cover up with nonsense euphemisms here. It’s not “refusing to affirm” it’s discrimination and ostracism. You can’t be bothered to describe things honestly. Spineless bigotry.

  42. Why is it that over the many eons since we began looking at the world through a scientific lens, we have accepted so many changes in scientific knowledge about the world around us, but we cannot accept that Biblical perspectives on LGBT individuals were simply wrong–that orientation is a spectrum; with homosexuals on one end and heterosexuals on the other end and those who can appreciate both genders lie somewhere in the middle?
    Homosexual behavior has been observed throughout the animal kingdom. Are these animals “wrong”? Are they making a “choice” or are they simply following their genetic predispositions?
    When you study Scripture and look at the various sins that are described throughout the pages, it’s usually black and white as to why an action or thought is a sin. You kill someone, for example, and you have destroyed a life–brought turmoil to a family. There is a clear negative action and a negative outcome.
    But with homosexuality, what is the negative outcome? Who, exactly, is harmed by my being a gay man? Who suffers by my seeking and finding a male mate?
    Many of us gay Christians spent our youth and even most of our adulthood begging and pleading with God to change us, but He doesn’t. Why is that?
    As was with my situation, I only experienced love and peace from God when I asked that His will be done regarding my acceptance of my orientation. He very clearly told me that He made me as He made me–that He wanted me to be happy.
    If you’ve never struggled with the issue, it may be difficult for you to understand and accept that God makes gay people. We don’t know why. And in the cosmic scheme of things, does it really matter?
    Like I said, we hurt no one because of our orientation.

  43. It’s sad to me that Jen Hatmaker thinks it is kind to encourage her friends and children to live in sin.

    And I also don’t understand why she continues to perpetuate the lie that Christians are only pro-life up until the child is born when she knows that simply is not true. I suppose her definition of being pro-life after the child is born is if you are for government programs despite the fact that those programs institutionalize poverty and hurt the very people they claim to help. I’m glad, at least, she has openly now shown that she is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. You know those who are false prophets by the fact they create their own theology which she does.

    Seems like Jen Hatcher is very bent on being popular. If she were so principled, she would take issue with Hillary’s faults which are as long a list as Donald Trumps. But, funny, she’s never come out publicly stating that. I wonder why? Who is her master?

  44. Truthfully, you have become almost too ridiculous to even respond to. How you got from differences over marriage to wanting people to be fired from jobs or denying medical care takes some serious commitment to dishonesty. Where in anything I’ve said has such nonsense even been implied?

    Stop projecting and engage the actual arguments people are making.

  45. Bryan, you have done a remarkable job explaining the truth and remaining calm throughout this discourse. Well done! Spuddie and others will continue to persecute those that speak the truth for many years to come. Keep running the race!

  46. We all have ditched the Bible somewhere sometime in our lives Taylor. But the solution is NOT to keep on ditching the Bible. That don’t work.

    And the solution is NOT to run around re-writing your Bible to justify your mess or my mess or the Gay Goliath’s mess. That don’t work either.

    (And that last mess, Gay-Goliath Gay-Marriage-Mess, publicly opposes Christianity itself. So YEAH, we imperfect Christians have a solid right to speak up publicly against the Gay-Goliath Gay-Marriage-Mess, and to offer healing and deliverance to same-sex-attracted people through Jesus Christ.)

  47. Well then, by all means… kill, kill, kill! 9090 babies murdered annually are late term, by your figures. A small price to pay, dancing in the pale moonlight. Right?

    Perhaps my taxes funding this killing should be a matter of public discourse, eh sweetie?

  48. If 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Romans 6:23 is correct, you are hurting yourself the moment you act on that so-called “orientation.”

    God’s personal care and grace is still there for you anyway, for His love for you is a daily thing.

    But make no mistake, don’t try to sugarcoat, the bad level of spiritual danger that’s going on with the gay thing. Don’t reject God’s Word anymore. Reject and Repudiate the pro-gay voices while there is still time. Find healing, deliverance, and freedom in Christ and the Bible.

    If ya gotta pray 5000 prayers before “it works”, then go on and pray all 5000 times. DO whatever it takes to beat the gay thing. Drop all no-good Boyfriends and Whatnots. God is still around. Don’t give up anymore.

  49. Oh, the irony. You continue to ditch the principles taught in the Bible as you defend your reasons for ditching the principles in the Bible. You’re really not in a position to be judging anyone else for their moral failures, as far as I can see. Get back to minding living a Godly life instead of worrying about what other people are doing that doesn’t affect you in the least.

  50. There is nothing truthful about how you have represented the issue at all.

    Just to use your language on a similar issue, racism doesn’t exist, it’s “a disagreement over affirming issues of racial hierarchy”. It’s my religious duty not to affirm the behaviors of people who think that they are entitled to positive legal approval for their violation of racial separation.

    ” How you got from differences over marriage to wanting people to be fired from jobs or denying medical care…”

    …are descriptions of actions Christians with your POV have already taken in support of anti gay sentiment. I am simply listing stuff people like you have done and tried to excuse with language you have employed.

  51. Did she say it doesn’t bother her? You’re making a lot of assumptions.

  52. Caustic sarcasm is a drain on the soul, and no “nap” can cure that.

  53. This isn’t really about agreeing with them on everything they do; it’s more about accepting them for who they ARE, intrinsically. We are called to do that.

  54. That’s not going to happen if he were to pray 5,000,000 prayers. He’s not rejecting God’s Word (JESUS) but accepting that this is who he is in Christ, and in that is his healing, deliverance, and freedom. Yanking 1 Co. 6:9-11 out of context is not helping your case. You do realize that it was Paul’s wind-up before he lowered the boom in 2 Corinthians, right?

  55. Self-righteousness drains the soul much more quickly. In any event, “caustic sarcasm” is a redundancy. According to Merriam-Webster, “caustic” means “marked by incisive sarcasm.” Failure to use a dictionary when needed drains the mind. Furthermore, you have not in any way rebutted my argument. So do you have an argument or were you just indulging your sense of self-righteousness?

  56. My thanks to ss, Bart Barber and Meand Julio. You have done very well in exposing the bankruptcy of gapaul’s argument. And I bet you didn’t even need the comfort of your sofa.

  57. How incredibly sad that so many in the church no longer believe in holiness.
    The message of living in and justifying sin and still calling yourself a follower of Christ is not of God. (I refer to Gay Christians)
    Yes, we should show mercy and grace to the unsaved. This is without question an area where the church has failed especially toward the gay community. But to justify a perversion of God’s holy design for mankind, to tolerate sin in the name of love? Jesus said “go and sin no more” not “I love you, do what feels right.” Would you attend the wedding of a man you knew also had a mistress?
    This saddens me deeply.

  58. Yes, because I’m sure Jesus would have been one to chant “Pigs in a blanket, fry, fry fry!”

  59. Can one accept that a person is born with certain feelings or desires yet still hold that there may be some aspects of it they should not act on? Is the fact that someone feels born a certain way thereby make whatever that thing is automatically right and worthy of pursuit?

  60. But you aren’t discussing this with Christians with my POV, you’re discussing this with me. Unless I express such sentiments, your arguments are off base. We will get a lot further in understanding each other if we stop with the placing of the other in a certain box and then making assumptions based on that to argue from.

  61. Wow! I support Young Life, but this article is seriously disturbing – what about being Biblical? I believe the Word is inerrant. Period! We are definitely living in the end times.

    Dr. Laura Sherwood

  62. What is tiresome here is your assumption that this is an ‘either/or’ conversation/issue. Apparently you can’t value black lives and blue lives.

  63. There is no place in the New Testament (let alone either 1 Cor or 2 Cor) where Paul retracts, contradicts, or even modifies what he directly claims in 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

  64. I haven’t judged anybody. You simply don’t agree with certain important claims of the Bible, and you don’t like it when others do agree with those claims.

    That’s your choice (but I wouldn’t do a lot of talking about “living a Godly life” under such conditions.)

  65. I am an old, white, gay man, and I would be safer if there were no police at all.

  66. Persecuting? What a persecution complex. They are exchanging ideas in a public forum.

  67. Bottom line: God’s WORD is absolute truth and GOD created the institution of marriage. You want to pervert it and have perverted it thru lifestyle and legislation. What’s your problem? Perversion is legalized and you want to split hairs over verbiage used to explain truth to your small mind. How can you NOT comprehend a loving GOD who tells you in HIS Word and by HIS HOLY SPIRIT what is absolutely right/moral and absolutely wrong/immoral? God’s word is to be followed and obeyed over man’s laws. Bottom line. BTW: If you died tonight, do you know where your soul would spend eternity? Your body dies, but your soul lives eternally. Think about it.

  68. “For the wages of sin is death…” What about your sins–the sins you commit every day? Let’s go back to the Old Testament when a man was stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. Should we be doing that now? Are we disobeying God by not executing people for working on the Sabbath (which, by the way, modern Jews believe the Sabbath begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday). All of the work you do on Saturday–should you be executed for that?

    And with regards to 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul–even though he had some 17 other words he could have used for the word “homosexual”–he uses the word “arsenokoitai” a word that had never before been used. How can you be certain that Paul is referring to homosexuality as we know it today?

    It’s very simplistic to suggest that I pray 5000 or more times for God to intervene in my life and change my orientation. You have no experience being gay and Christian. You’ve never experienced God’s healing touch on your soul when He finally delivers the good news to you that he meant for you to be gay.

  69. Homosexuality is found throughout the natural world. Several animal species engage in homosexual sex and many even mate for life i.e. penguins. How can it be unnatural? It’s literally a part of nature.

  70. Conservative evangelicals have such a hard time admitting that their interpretation of the bible is not infallible, as evidenced by many of the comments here. I applaud Jen’s courage in speaking in favour of equality and respect for ALL of God’s children. Gay, straight, black, white, male, female…the list goes on. We are all human and deserve the same rights and protections under the law. Conservatives can denounce that idea all they want, but I think time will show that they were on the wrong side of history. It certainly won’t be the first time.

  71. A perfectly sound statement. I see below that you have engaged in a long debate with Spuddie, this will be a case of the irresistible force acting on the immovable object, i.e. neither will concede much to the other. I speak from long experience.

  72. This woman, whoever she is, is clearly not a Bible believing Christian at all. In the words of John MacArthur, ‘the worste thing you can do to a homosexual is affirm their sin.’ That is the most unloving and unkind thing you can ever do, is to leave people in their sin and tell them it’s okay. God, the eternal judge, says otherwise.

  73. Incest is even more common in nature. So is polygamy. So is the killing of a rival’s offspring.

  74. Well, one can not really have a debate (in the usual sense of the word) about the biblical soundness of gay relationships with someone who has zero knowledge of the bible and does not believe in the God of the bible in the first place. The necessary common premises from which to begin are absent.

  75. “But with homosexuality, what is the negative outcome?” That is the nature of sexual sin in general. Even if it were true that it causes no direct harm (that we can perceive) to another, it is a departure from our Creator’s design and purpose for our bodies. As Paul wrote: “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.”

    “that He wanted me to be happy.” I wish I had a dime for every time I’ve heard people divorcing their lawful spouses to take up with someone else claim that “God wants us to be happy.” Where in Scripture does it indicate that God values our happiness above all else? Did God allow Daniel to be forcibly carried away from his home and family (forever) to serve a foreign tyrant because He wanted him to be happy or because He had a great purpose for him to accomplish? Did He allow the same to happen to Joseph for his happiness or because he had a destiny that would never come to fruition if he remained at home as the “happy” pampered pet of his father? Did He direct Hosea to marry a promiscuous woman who would break his heart and destroy their family because He wanted him to be happy or because He had a larger message for him to communicate to his people? Did He call Elijah to the many trials and dangers he faced for his happiness or for the good of the people whose very knowledge of the Lord was being imperiled by the influence of evil rulers?

    When making choices the question is not as much “What will make me happy?” as “What will keep me closer to God’s will and purpose?”

  76. “…he uses the word “arsenokoitai” a word that had never before been used. How can you be certain that Paul is referring to homosexuality as we know it today?” Because the word is a compound word made up of the two key words of another well-known biblical passage, and from ancient commentary we know exactly what that other passage means.

    “It’s very simplistic to suggest that I pray 5000 or more times for God to intervene in my life and change my orientation.” He may not ever take away the particular temptations we face (Jesus said there would always be temptations to sin, and they are different for all of us). What He does is give us the desire and the strength to resist them. Twenty-five years ago I had to make a choice between happiness and obedience, and the feelings that were luring me away from obedience and toward “happiness” never went away — but now time and circumstances have made it obvious that had I chosen the wrongly I would have ended up neither obedient nor happy, and very much alone as well.

    “Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble” Ps.119:165.

  77. Are you opposed to war, the death penalty, and gun ownership?

  78. I find it interesting that you continue to try to make claims about who I am. I guess the only part of living a Godly life you like is the part where you try to pretend to be God by judging everyone around you without minding your own hubris.

  79. There are plenty of gay Christians, so this is a strange claim for you to make. However, you continue to rail against homosexuality. If you don’t want gay people to hate Christians, maybe you should try not hating gay people. Especially in this slightly delusional way you do.

  80. And who is John MacArthur that we should give a damn what he says about how we practice our spirituality? Nooooo one. GOD is the judge. Not you. So your rush to judge this woman is in direct defiance of what your religion teaches.

  81. well said, AM. I agree that we have not loved certain groups well and must do better. But Jesus told the prostitute to LEAVE her life of sin, because a life of holiness was better. He never celebrated her prostitution.

  82. oh good heavens. John MacArthur is a world-renowned Biblical scholar. God has put him in a great place of leadership. I wish Jen Hatmaker was more faithful with the position God has given her. Our culture does not want to submit to Biblical teaching. God is absolutely the only judge of all. But He gives us the Bible and anoints teachers to lead us. God never accepts sin. We are called to repent, not endorse sin so that we and others can be saved!

  83. We live in a sinful and broken world. Jesus is the model – not a sinful world, which the Bible says is ruled by Satan. Jesus told the prostitute she was LOVED but she must LEAVE her life of sin to join him. We cannot have everything we want in earth and expect a reward in heaven.

  84. And you’re calling *me* self-righteous? Oh, Lort. My reply is that your sarcasm does nothing to further YOUR argument. And, FWIW, the first definition of “caustic” is what I am using: acidic, burning.

  85. I think it’s more than “feeling” they are born a certain way. They ARE this way. It’s far deeper than feeling; if it weren’t, then we straight people should be able to “feel” attracted to our same sex, right? I dunno about you, but I can’t do that.

  86. You are using the vaguely coded language commonly employed to excuse discrimination and malicious behavior. You are unwilling to take your own rhetoric and arguments to their logical conclusion. You are annoyed that I am doing so in far plainer and clearer language than you are. There is nothing honest nor moral about your position.

  87. My bad. Was referring to Romans 1: 18-32 and Romans 2-4.

  88. Yep. How often are fetus worshipers caught lying to the public on service of their belief?

    It is a regular occurrence. From phony assertions about medical consequences of abortion to phony crisis centers run by people with no professional training to phony “sting” videos. If facts were on their side thru would not resort to so much emotional appeal and dishonest pretenses (as exemplified with phony medical limitations under TRAP laws)

  89. No, I’m talking about a particular thing in all of this and you are exaggerating or outright misrepresenting things I’ve said and extrapolating it to all sorts of things I never even mentioned and you have no idea how I feel about. I’m annoyed because you seem unwilling or incapable of honest, rational discussion and would rather pummel a strawman than have a real conversation.

  90. It’s still a feeling, even if you’re born with it. And of course you realize that not even all LBGT people believe in the immutable “inborn” idea on sexual orientation anyway. They argue that sexuality and sexual attraction is “fluid” and can change over time. Regardless of what view you hold, it’s a very complex thing that I don’t believe any of us truly understand.

    But regardless, even sticking with the inborn view, it’s still a feeling. And no, one can’t just change their feelings. People are attracted to who they are attracted to. We like the things we like, desire the things we desire and often times, there’s no real rational explanation for it. We don’t ever recall pondering the issue and deciding to want/like whatever or whoever it is. It just is and that’s all there is to it.

    The question then becomes whether the simple existence of a desire automatically makes the pursuit or fulfillment of that desire something one should do. Obviously if your bottom-line moral compass on this is “consent”, then the answer is rather simple. But in reality, most people don’t really believe that. There are all sorts of things we as humans desire or are attracted to, that we never “chose” to desire, that we nonetheless feel we should not pursue and that others would say we shouldn’t pursue either.

  91. Christians need to show love to everyone, despite their belief system. Christ often dined with sinners. What he didn’t do… excuse their sin. He forgave it if they asked and turned from it. Happy for Jen for all of her success, but cannot help but feel like she’s leading a generation of Christians away from sound Biblical doctrine in exchange for hipster christianity.

  92. Shorter ss: she doesn’t hate the same people I do. She is concerned with poverty and bigotry when I clearly am not. How unbiblical!

  93. Again, who are you and who is John MacArthur to speak for God? You people and your outrageous pride. I wish you were more faithful with connecting to the teachings of humble acceptance and love.

    You’re a sinner, too. Are you unaccepted by God?

  94. Jesus said “go and sin no more” to the woman who was sinning against her spouse. I’m not sure how gay people involved romantically with other gay people are sinning against anyone. The Church has done a terrible job of showing Christ to LGBT people; it always stops me short to see LGBT people who continue to pursue Jesus inside the church and are willing to be forgiving of those who try to tell then that being “gay” and being “Christian” is an oxymoron. For the sake of argument, are intersex people (experts have said 1 in every 1,300 births in this country alone is an intersex baby) a perversion of God’s design? What about children with an extra chromosome – those we say have Down’s Syndrome – are they also a perversion? Is it possible that something happens in the womb as a result of hormonal fluctuations that makes someone LGBT? If it is, then are we willing to tell God that his design is flawed and perverted?

    Exodus closed its doors because of the harm caused by reparative therapy – and because it simply didn’t work. If part of God’s holiness is wholeness (the root word is the same), then it seems that His goal for us is to each become “whole” in Him. When LGBT people accept that they are the beloved of God without trying to “change” their sexual orientation – and I think we’re seeing that God isn’t in the business of doing that – then they are, indeed, “whole.”

    You asked if we would attend the wedding of a man who had a mistress, but isn’t that a bit ike comparing apples to cars? I would not, because he would be choosing to live a lie and live sinning against his wife. LGBT people who have said, “This is who I am” and who live according to who they are are neither living a lie nor sinning against others. I would also not attend the wedding of a gay man marrying a woman, because he would knowingly and willingly be sinning against her.

    I think we need to try and view LGBT people as more than a sexual act. We are too focused on this and end up throwing away the baby with the bathwater.

  95. “It’s not bigotry I just have a disagreement over affirming their lifestyle choices” is such an overused cliche that your denials are not even remotely credible.

  96. Ok, I’ve tried. I’m willing to talk with anyone no matter how deep the disagreements. But it takes two people to do that. You let me know when you’re ready to engage with a real person and their actual views rather than just be a bomb thrower.

  97. Ah, the mockery that so many Christians feel so comfortable with. There it is. You can’t really help yourselves, eventually, the hollowness of your own commitment to a deeper and higher form of conduct always shows itself.

  98. Being gay is not a set of behaviors. Start there.

  99. Wrong. those “legal rights” did not afford all of the legal support under a civil marriage. Those of you who’ve taken such issue with gay marriage can relax, you’ve made it abundantly clear to gay men and women that Christians want absolutely nothing to do with their marriage, even though no one is asking for a sacramental marriage – just a legal one (and you’ve made sure they’ll never step foot in our church again as a result, that’s for sure). Gay marriage has been legal for quite some time and straight people – including christians – are enjoying a 52% divorce rate so we’re continuing to destroy the sacrament of marriage just fine on our own.

  100. That’s rich. Someone goes full strawman with their arguments, but the person that points it out is the real problem.

  101. oh for goodness sake, that you actually believe you’re being “persecuted” is hysterically-fueled nonsense. People being *angry* with you and finding the courage to say so (it takes courage given how vicious Christians get when challenged) isn’t persecuting you. You’re experiencing that because you’re getting your collective cage rattled. You’re not in danger.

  102. because you dope, gay men and women have experienced both – consistently – for decades in this country, there’s a continuum of oppression that he’s obviously speaking to.

  103. wow, that you’d actually suggest gay men and women being denied health care or getting fired from a job for being gay is a “straw man”. that is stunning.

  104. Patricia, the Bible clearly says that God hates divorce. And no wonder, it totally shatters families and kids and yet Gay marriage has been legal for quite some time and straight people – including christians – are enjoying a 52% divorce rate so we’re continuing to destroy the sacrament of marriage just fine on our own. Maybe it’s those of you who divorce who are the perverts.

  105. Gay marriage has been legal for quite some time and straight people – including christians – are enjoying a 52% divorce rate so we’re continuing to destroy the sacrament of marriage just fine on our own. Maybe start praying about divorce, that’s hurting way more people.

  106. Let me know when your mom or dad wishes to talk. I’m not interested in snipefests with adolescents.

  107. Let me know when you’re ready to discuss what I’ve said and reply accordingly rather than belching out your predetermined boilerplate auto-replies.

  108. Gay marriage has been legal for quite some time and straight people – including christians – are enjoying a 52% divorce rate so we’re continuing to destroy the sacrament of marriage just fine on our own. It’s so strange that all of you want to focus on the gays while shattering your own families through divorce and remarriage.

  109. It is HILARIOUS that you think she said those things to be “popular” when she knew Christians like you would evicerate her (we always get to see that “unconditional love” of Christians when something doesn’t go their way). guess what? You’re the bully in this equation, you’re not the victim.

  110. I’m suggesting it’s a strawman because it is not a view I espouse or am arguing shouldn’t be prevented. A strawman argument is when you pretend to be refuting a person’s argument while actually refuting a point they aren’t even making.

  111. except that hasn’t worked ever because being gay is not a sin. the “conversation therapy” has utterly failed and caused hundreds of men and women serious anguish.

  112. No more often than the pro-abortion side is caught lying. There are medical consequences to abortion. Depression has been experienced by many who have had abortions, for example, and that is a medical condition. The pro-abortion side is afraid to refer to the “fetus” as a child (as are you, apparently) because that would undercut their own argument. But most people knows it’s a child. The most important things in child development do not happen at birth. Birth is little more than a change in where the baby lives. Brain development and organ development happens in the womb. Personality and temperament develop in the womb. But abortion mills don’t remind their patients of that. Your side will eventually lose because science is against you. As we learn more and more about the developing child in the womb, its stature as a child will become more and more obvious. As we perform operations on younger and younger children in the womb, their stature as children will become more and more obvious. As we save preemies at younger and younger ages, their stature as children will become more and more obvious. You’re fighting a losing battle, Spuddie, as evidenced by the fact that you think Slate is an objective resource.

  113. Your constant tone-policing is tiresome and inconsistent in these discussions. You put several people on blast here as you try to distance yourself from the actual points being made to you that anyone who’s cared enough about the GLBT community would consider as being obvious by comments like this one. No one owes you a civil discussion as you actually attempt to reduce being gay down to a set of behaviors that one chooses due to a “feeling”. It’s abusive and a lot of us aren’t tolerating it anymore. Deal with it. You’re hurting gay men and women and we’re angry about it and we’re not treating you as the delicate flower you insist upon being in these discussions when challenged or, when getting a little bit of your “tough talk” back.

  114. Oh I see, you mean the “straw men” of gay men and women being fired by Christians for being gay and being denied health care because of being gay? Sure.

  115. Actually, I’m quite happy, but thanks for asking.

  116. I don’t believe that for a second, your level of contempt is creepy.

  117. That you can’t grasp a continuum of oppression that these two points illustrate and instead, need the conversation to flow on your very rigid, specific terms using only those examples you reference is demonstrative of your inability to have a more nuanced conversation about the oppression gay men and women face which up until recently, included not having the same rights afforded to them in civil partnerships as they would gain in legal marriage.

  118. It’s a serious question. If sexuality can be chosen, then tell us when you chose to be straight.

  119. I don’t really care what you find tiresome since you evidently don’t care how you come off to others. You don’t want to discuss something rationally, you want to hurl childish insults and barbs. I just don’t have time for that. Enjoy preaching to the choir and self-congratulatory pats on the back if that’s going to be your MO.

  120. No, Rick, I don’t make that assumption. I value all lives. In this case I was responding to one who supports the 4% of Black Live Matter movement, which has chanted for the death of cops, and so it was appropriate for me to raise the concern I raised. That in no way implies that I don’t value other lives. If, in the 1940s, I spoke out against Hitler’s attempt to exterminate the Jews (and others), would that mean I didn’t value the lives of those not threatened by Hitler? Of course not. What is tiresome is your failure to see that it is the 4% of Black Lives Matter movement that can’t value black lives and blue lives.

  121. Ahh, the whole “gay marriage opens us up to endorsing a man marrying his horse or 25 other men” argument. Well let’s look at the facts: straight people – including Christians – enjoy a 52% divorce rate and remarry at a shocking rate, so we’re shattering families just fine on our own and after a number of years of gay marriage being legalized, there’s no identifiable pattern of anyone trying to marry their cat. Perhaps you can let actual data ease your mind.

  122. Then I suggest you move somewhere where there is no police protection and try it for a while. See how you like it. But before you do that, you might want to consider the fact that the vast majority of Black people want police presence in their communities. They know what a hell their communities would be without it.

  123. The problem is that you can’t seem to grasp that someone could possibly be opposed to gay marriage or have certain beliefs on sexual activity and such, yet still hold that a person shouldn’t be fired, denied housing or healthcare, and so on for being gay. You wish to lump all issues into one and that’s simply not how real people think.

  124. Where does this 4% figure get backed by citations, Phil? And what relevance does it even have to the discussion?

  125. And it was a simple response…read what I said in this comment thread. If you did, you would see that your question makes little sense in that light.

  126. And we had three Christian white men try to blow up a mosque but strangely enough, I don’t see anyone holding them out as the example of the Christian white male standard and yet your obsession with the few that chanted this awful chant are what you’re holding out as the norm. How convenient!

  127. You have articulated so very well so many of my own thoughts and feelings. It is my hope and prayer that God will bless and use your words to soften hearts, open minds, and bring much needed healing and reconciliation. Shalom!

  128. When your “side” calls women murderers, don’t be surprised when they become depressed afterward.

  129. When you decide to stop throwing a temper tantrum that people aren’t reacting to your points and instead, using them to make their own, join the conversation when you don’t need to control it so much.

  130. Let the record show that you were the one that decided to go to the hyperbolic “bestiality” argument, yet frame it as if I did. Disingenuous, yet par for the course.

  131. It is HILARIOUS when people like you start calling other’s points to you “straw men”, etc and then you wander away because you get your feelings hurt. You’re incapable of accepting any responsibility for your proactive, aggressive nature in these conversations and instead, start tone policing everyone else when the fire bombs you throw out first get thrown back at you but as we all know, bullies make excellent victims which you’re certainly proving here.

  132. of course it does, you’ve suggested in your original comment that it’s a “feeling you choose”. Those are your own words. So you had a “feeling” of being straight – when did you choose that? Was it in high school? Elementary school? When did you consciously choose to act on this feeling instead of being compelled by a biological imperative?

  133. I have yet to see a position espoused by the by the anti abortion crowd on the subject which was supported by the professional medical associations or AMA. They resoundingly come out and debunk this nonsense.

    They opposed every medical procedural and safety claim used to justify abortion provider restrictions.

    Your assertions simply lack credibility and actual expert corroboration accepted in the field.

  134. I’m not “wandering away,” I’m just choosing to reserve my time and engagement for people who want honest conversation.

  135. Perhaps you don’t understand what “nature” is.

  136. Your disagreement is on the issue as to whether to treat people as human beings. I see no point of compromise here possible if one is invoking morality as a guide to ones view .

  137. Yes, much like Bob Jones University and other really successful and profitable endeavors.

  138. You quoted me saying “a feeling you choose.” But I didn’t say that. You are once again being dishonest. I, in fact, said practically the exact opposite.

  139. It’s not control, it’s an appeal for some intellectual honesty. When you misrepresent someone’s statements or attribute views to them they have either not expressed, or in fact have specifically stated they do not hold, that is not “tone policing” or throwing a temper tantrum to call you on it.

  140. Well i support Young Life too and have no issue with gay marriage. According to Christianity today, straight Christians are enjoying a 52% divorce rate. We’re shattering marriage and family just fine on our own and some of you only start talking about the End Times when a gay couple wants to be legally devoted to one another. Stunning.

  141. No, my disagreement is over what it means to treat people as human beings. You’re assuming that which you have yet to prove. You don’t get to set your own view on what that means as the default when that is the very thing that is at issue. It is a disagreement over whether one can treat someone as a human being while still having areas of deep disagreement on moral and legal matters.

  142. There it is again! Those of us who are challenging your points of view and using different examples to illustrate ours aren’t having an “honest” conversation. Wow, you’re are one manipulative dude. Creepy.

  143. Wow, you’re quite a piece of work. You’ve “walked away” from the conversation about 87 times now. how about demonstrating some integrity this time and making this exit stick.

  144. Of course. You are just parroting the same exact stance and expressions people use to justify a panoply of bad actions but you don’t really support such things. Riiiight.

  145. “Challenge” my points all you want. But when you do so in a disingenuous manner and essentially lie about my views, you don’t deserve my time.

  146. Wrong. You’re trying to control this conversation by insisting everyone use your very specific examples when in fact, the examples you provide are indicative of a spectrum of oppression you’re representing. You’ve literally attacked people who’ve not aligned with the exact way you want to have this discourse. Next time, open your mind a little bit.

  147. Yes, because you continue to show a shocking lack of integrity and misrepresent my views. I guess I’m hard-headed in the sense that I tend to believe eventually people will stop the hyper-defensive posturing and talk with you if you try hard enough. Evidently that’s not going to happen with you.

  148. There was nothing “acidic” or “burning” about my use of sarcasm. It was actually pretty mild stuff. And I do think the humor it conveyed did further my argument. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about that. And, yes, I did find your sense of entitlement to comment on the state of my soul to be self-righteous. And your “nap” comment , by the way, was sarcastic. But I’m okay with that. I’m just surprised that you would use sarcasm in light of your comments about me. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too.

  149. I don’t. And I’ve said repeatedly now that I don’t. And if we could ever get to a point where we could stop making blanket assumptions about people we could really get somewhere in this country. You’re no better than the rabid Trump supporters that declare anyone that critiques him as a closet liberal. Or the hard-right conservatives that have a conniption when you say you don’t think it’s practical to deport 11 million illegal immigrants and declare that you’re a “faux conservative” or you want wide open borders and amnesty for all. “You’re a RINO.”

    It’s truly tiresome and wholly unnecessary. I don’t take a position on one matter and then auto-subscribe to a slate of other views just to fit in with a pack.

  150. No, you’re wrong. If you want to go at someone who believes in all these things you’re angry about, have at it. But if you wish to discuss it with me specifically, then you’re just being ridiculous. I don’t subscribe to 99% of the stuff you’re ranting at me about. So it’s rather nonsensical to keep swinging that bat at me.

  151. Believe what you want, but at least back up your comments. Where have I shown contempt that is creepy? Is it just because I happen to think that the writer of the piece that started this string of comments is misguided in her support for the 4% of Black Lives Matter movement?

  152. It is widely known that the percentage of Black homicide victims who die at the hands of police is about 4%. Google it. if you’re incapable of finding it, write back and I’ll find it for you. As for the relevance to this discussion, it was part of my criticism of the support the writer of the original piece gave to what she called the Black Lives Matter movement. They never seem to protest the other 96% of Black deaths by homicide. Where are the protesters when a little girl in St. Louis sitting in her kitchen doing her homework is killed by a stray bullet from a gang shooting? This actually happened in St. Louis not long after the Michael Brown shooting. If you’re not from the St. Louis area, I’m guessing you may not have heard of it. And that’s my point, in a nutshell.

  153. Lol. Taylor’s comment reminds of this piece from the Babylon Bee:

    A brilliant theologian was reportedly able to condense the entirety of Scripture into a two-word Facebook comment Tuesday, instantly silencing all critics in the thread and garnering numerous “likes.”

    The gifted exegete, going by the name “Kyle Bro” on the social-media service, left the comment “Judge not,” followed by an authoritative period, under a friend’s post about sexual immorality in the church—stunning his friends and family with his intellectual clarity and theological acumen.

  154. Your comment reminds me of the astounding ability for people to cherry pick what they like out of a religious text and pretend the parts they don’t like don’t apply.

    It’s always fascinating when I stumble across a religious coven who use their group as an echo chamber to help reinforce their excuses for treating other people as less than.

  155. You’re concerned about depression? What about post-partum depression and psychosis? Which, you know, happens to women who want to have babies. Now imagine how much worse it will be in the women you force to have babies.

    There’s no such thing as an abortion mill, but you seem to be operating under some strange belief that no woman knows what happens inside their bodies when they get pregnant. I guess, if you weren’t exposed to comprehensive sexual education you might not know a fetus develops all its organs in utero, but most well educated adults are firmly aware of that fact and don’t need their gynecologists explaining to them how human development works.

  156. At no point does anybody’s taxes fund any abortion, so you can just stop crying about that right now.

  157. Bottom line: in America, God is separate from country. Hate gays on your own but leave your hands off the laws. Marriage and gays existed long before Christianity, and both will long after. God is not a Christian.

  158. The point is that he claimed it was “unnatural” which it clearly isn’t if it shows up in nature. And I guess the major difference between homosexuality and all of the things you listed is that it harms no one. Being in a consensual relationship with a member of one’s own sex is not the same thing as rape and murder. Sorry, but it’s not.

  159. “Christian white male” is not a movement or organization. There is no spokesman for it. And yet many Christian white men condemned the act you speak of. BLM is a movement. It has spokespeople. They have not, to my knowledge, condemned the chant. Nor have they, to my knowledge, condemned the two occasions in which BLM interrupted two Pride parades in Toronto. Your analogy is really quite silly. You might have just as well said that some mothers have killed their children and yet you don’t see anyone holding them out as the example of the standard of motherhood. Well, of course not. Mothers, in general, are not responsible for those who murdered their children, just as white men, in general, are not responsible for the evil acts of some white men. BLM is responsible for what goes on under its umbrella. How inconvenient for you.

  160. Then maybe you should leave your life of judging others, since that seems to be your favorite sin.

  161. “your outrageous pride” doesn’t seem to want to listen to anyone but yourself. That is what got Satan thrown out of heaven. He believed he was smarter than everyone else. Read Tim Keller. Read NT Wright. Read Martin Luther and Pope Francis and any number of Biblical scholars. Oh right, you’re smarter than all of them…

  162. And here you are, in the comments section. Great success.

  163. Lady, you don’t know me or anything about me, what I’ve studied, what I’ve read, or what I believe. I haven’t shared anything about myself because my beliefs are private enough for me to think they don’t need to apply to anyone other than myself, and I have enough sense to realize no one cares what my beliefs are except for myself, anyway. You need the rest of the world to fit into your narrow box or else you hate them, and judge them. You’ve turned your favorite sin into your favorite hobby, yet you have the audacity to hate gay people?

  164. Yes, depression might even worse for those who decide they don’t want to have their baby. Unless, of course, they are one of the many women I have heard say that after considering abortion they decided to have their baby and are spending the rest of their life grateful they didn’t have the abortion. But in any event, the possibility of depression can hardly be a justification for killing a child. Otherwise, you would have to grant the mother of a child already born the right to kill her child if child-rearing is overwhelming to her and she is becoming depressed by the burden of it all.

    Actually, I’m not under any strange belief that many people, women included, are not informed about the remarkable developments that happen in the womb. What percentage of the population knows at what point the brain begins to show activity or the unborn child begins to react to stimuli? I suspect it’s a small percentage.

    Meanwhile, I guess you have no answer to all the scientific gains being made that are slowly but surely causing your side to lose the argument. You’re fighting a losing battle, Taylor.

  165. Thoughtful and balanced perspective on politics. Anti-gospel and profane message when it coms to calling same sex relationships “holy.” Jesus loved the LGBT community enough to die to save them from their sin…and mine too.

  166. You’re fighting a losing battle. I’m not fighting it, I’m living my truth and not getting into battles with people who are just looking to control the world around them, because they are merely sad and frustrated people with little faith. Having an abortion saved my life, and I would never deny a woman a chance to save her life.

  167. The AMA denies all the things I talked about that happen in the womb? That’s news to me and probably everyone else. The AMA is strongly pro-choice, but even they won’t be able to stave off the growing scientific evidence that I referred to, evidence which, I notice, you have not rebutted in any way. You say my assertions “lack credibility” but you are not able to counter them. Interesting.

  168. The vast majority of women I have read about who have experienced depression about having an abortion related that depression directly to the act of aborting their child and never mentioned anyone calling them “murderers.”

  169. Funny… you say you’re not getting into battles with people, but you’re the one who started the battle with me. It was you who initially responded to my comment, not the other way around. You say that you’re living your truth. I’m more interested in the truth. I’m not looking to control the world, unless you think people who favor laws against homicide are trying to “control the world.” I have no issue with abortions done to save the life of the mother. That falls under the classic ethical right to self-defense. But most abortions don’t fall under that category. And what on earth does “faith” have to do with any of this? You really are getting desperate – and still unable to rebut any of my arguments.

  170. Un, no, Taylor — you’re absolutely wrong. Planned Parenthood’s own fact sheet states that the majority of late-term abortions are done for the same reasons as first-trimester abortions: depression, unwillingness to admit the pregnancy, abusive partners, etc. All problems that can and should be solved without taking a life. ( Abby Johnson, who ran one of the largest Planned Parenthood clinics in the nation, said that approximately 50% of the late-term abortions performed at hers and other clinics were on healthy babies of healthy mothers. Another large percentage were performed on babies whose conditions were not incompatible with life: Down’s Syndrome, limb abnormalities, etc. The Charlotte Lozier Institute also did an in-depth study on the reasons for late-term abortion. ( The problem with most “abortion-rights activists” is the complete unwillingness to face how barbaric “abortion rights” really are. Pregnant women in crisis deserve much more than a dead baby and a box of condoms.

  171. Taylor, again, you’re wrong. According to their 2013-2014 annual report, Planned Parenthood received over $528 million, or 41% of their revenue, from taxpayers. Planned Parenthood, of course, is the nation’s largest abortion provider. If Hillary Clinton is elected she has promised to eradicate the Hyde Amendment which prevents taxpayer funding of abortion through Medicaid.

  172. Actually, you CAN find exactly where Paul got “arsenokoitai” from. Tends to be a bit surprising for some folks. Take a look?

    LEV. 20:13 (Septuagint Version, used by Greek-speaking Jews in Jesus’s day)
    ……”kai os an koimeetee meta arsenos koiten gynaikos bdelugma epoieesan amphoteroi thanatousthoosan enokhoi eisin”

    Arseno means “male” and koiten means “bed.” Lev 18:22 and 20:13 teach that a man cannot lie (sexual act) with another man as he lies with a woman. The origin of the word arsenokoites means homosexual activity and homosexual. Lev 18:22 and 20:13 prove very clearly that arsenos koiten means homosexual sex, because the Jews scribes translated words’ arsenos koiten describe men who have sex with other men (homosexuality), which is a sin and against the will of God. ”

    “Apostle Paul didn’t make up the word arsenokoites, but it was already as the concept in the Old Testament, where it meant homosexuality. ”

    (Hat Tip to Petri Paavola from Finland, “Arsenokoites Means Homosexuality”, 2010 online.)

  173. The traditionalist doctrine is, as David Gushee rightly says, the teaching of contempt for gay people. The theology says that gay couples are immoral and inferior to straight couples. It says that gay people are uniquely flawed (somehow more sexually broken than straight people) in a way that makes them unsuitable for even the possibility of romantic intimacy.

    It is impossible to love gay people and subscribe to traditionalist theology. Love and contempt are mutually exclusive.

    Further, this is exactly why the church is losing moral authority. Gay marriage is demonstrably virtuous – a vow of lifelong mutual self-sacrifice, care taking, and fidelity in the service of community. But when traditionalists look into the lives of gay couples, they cannot acknowledge the good; they only identify “sexual sin”. Traditionalists believe that the morality of covenanted gay partnerships hinges on the licitness of gay sex. That’s absolutely backwards. The morality of gay sex is grounded in the sanctity of covenantal partnership.

  174. Surely you can see the difference between a covenantal partnership of gay people and an adulterous relationship…The former is a vow of lifelong mutual self-sacrifice and fidelity, the latter is a breaking of that vow.

    The church fails when it calls the virtuous relationships gay people form “unholy”, “perverted”, and “sinful”. At some point, traditionalist Christians will have to decide whether or not they can see gay people as fully human with the capacity to love and be loved intimately. Choosing to subscribe to traditionalist theology is an answer in the negative – one that puts love of doctrine before love of people.

  175. And by the way, “5000 times” is not some kind of magic praying number. It’s just that most folks don’t feel like fornicating at the same time that they’re praying. Heh!

    So as Shawnie suggested, if you’re looking for power to honor Christ by overcoming the same-sex-temptation (or any other temptation), you keep on praying no matter how long it takes, even if you have to face and fight that temptation the rest of your life. But God has some astonishing ways of showing people just how much His Power can overwhelm “homosexual feelings.” Seen it happen with a friend or two, by the way.

    So don’t stop and give in to false feelings and false messages of “God meant for you to be gay.” The struggle is so hard, sometimes, that ANY feeling of peace is often welcome to gay strugglers. But peace that accompanies anti-biblical messages is a false, demonic temporary peace. God’s word makes clear that you are NOT meant to practice homosexual behavior, and He’s waiting on you to fight back and win (with His power and ability.)

  176. When she gives her unqualified support to the BLM movement, I think my assumption is reasonable. Show me where she has ever repudiated the ugly side of BLm and I will retract my statement. Until then, I stand by it.

  177. They always send people to legislative hearings on the subject to debunk this kind of nonsense. Bringing in facts and studies when the anti-abortion crowd brings hysteria and misrepresentations.

    The AMA is very pro-professional medical ethics. They do not like the idea of clergy or politicians interposing themselves between a doctor/patient relationship, issues of informed consent, or making categorical fact free rulings on medical necessity. Claiming they are somehow pro-choice is just ridiculous conspirational thinking. Its in their best interest to avoid having their profession abused by religious fanatics. It has a nasty habit of killing patients.

  178. Exodus closed its door because ONE guy — its courageous and honorable leader, Alan Chambers — finally succumbed to all the national pressure that was being slammed on his shoulders from the Gay Goliath.

    And though Chambers stood strong and saw tens of thousands of gay strugglers healed and delivered by the power of Christ, Chambers himself finally gave in to a false, pro-gay doctrine called “hypergrace” that Chambers’ pastor had fallen for.

    Chambers himself NEVER fell back into homosexual sin and to this day he is FULLY FAITHFUL to his (female) wife. His own living example of healing and deliverance from homosexuality, is 100 percent clean and powerful, and 100 percent Christ-honoring.

    But under all that gay and liberal pressure, all the false teaching of “hypergrace”, and also feeling sad and burdened (as a true leader would) because of some gay strugglers who encountered Exodus workers or leaders of POOR quality instead of Chambers’ HIGH quality, Chambers finally buckled. He made a tragic decision to kill all of Exodus, despite all the tens of thousands of people who were helped and healed.

    But that ain’t the end. Restored Hope Network is online right now, an entire umbrella of Exodus-type ministries who carry the healing torch. People still gettin’ healed.

  179. Not claims about “who you are.” I don’t know who you are.
    Simply some claims about “what you do.”

    And one thing you’re doing is rejecting certain important claims about the Bible.
    Why you reject what God’s Word clearly says, I don’t know. But accusing folks of “judgmentalism” and “hubris”, honestly won’t justify your rejection of Scripture.

    The homosexual movement publicly opposes Christianity, and I speak out against the homosexual movement. Does that bother you?

  180. Did I say anything about rape? Incest and polygamy may be entirely consensual and harm no one.

  181. That’s what you’re missing: the majority of late term terminations do not take place at Planned Parenthood or other clinics, they take place in hospitals, and are not included in Planned Parenthood’s surveys.

  182. LOL! I understand that “nature” is often a very ugly place. Certainly not a foolproof barometer of right and wrong.

  183. Again, you’re wrong, because not a single dollar of that is spent on abortions. Planned Parenthood offers a wide variety of services and there is a federal law in action which prevents federal taxpayer money from being spent on abortion. Considering that bill was pro-life legislation, I’m surprised you don’t know about it.

  184. “Where does this 4% figure get backed by citations, Phil? And what relevance does it even have to the discussion?”

    Shorter Phil Kershner, “Nope, but I will double down on my screed”.

  185. You’re not making any arguments to rebut, so I have nothing to rebut.

  186. The whole idea of the anti-abortion POV is that no woman is qualified to know or make decisions about what goes on in their own bodies. So therefore, they must always defer to guys like Phil on such matters. After all it is Biblical to treat women as the property of all knowing and all powerful men.

  187. He is working under the assumption that he knows your body and what to do with it more than you do.

  188. Many diverse ministries are fighting against divorce (examples like Marriage Encounter, Today’s Christian Woman, Focus on the Family and Christian, and just about all the larger mainline and evangelical churches have good marriage counselors.)

    So let’s stop trying to use straight divorces to justify gay marriage. Gay marriage is a mess, it’s a sin, it locks its human victims into deeper damage and bondage. Please stop supporting that mess, Donna.

  189. “The Charlotte Lozier Institute” is a fetus worship advocacy group. Given the level of dishonesty associated with anti-abortion factual assertions, there is no reason to take its findings at face value.

    “Pregnant women in crisis deserve much more than a dead baby and a box of condoms.”

    Pregnant women in crisis deserve people who are not going to lie to them in service of their personal agendas, who value their informed consent, do not think they are entitled to make personal choices for them, and value their lives. None of that ever comes from the anti-abortion crowd.

    misses the point that abortion doesn’t have to be justified to her. Its not her decision to make unless its her womb.

  190. “Christian white male” has been the dominant group in this country since its founding, so you don’t need a movement. You guys literally have everything. Check the list of the richest men in the world and the majority of them are white.

    I guess, if you’ve always been on top, having all the other people join you on even footing must feel like a massive threat to you. Boo hoo. No one believes in the mythology of the righteous white Christian man anymore except for white Christian men, and in response, y’all are getting even more dangerous than ever before. If you’re willing to hold all black people accountable for the acts of few, you sure as hell better be willing to accept full responsibility for the acts of all white men. Or else, you know, you’re just a lazy hypocrite.

    Thank God the reign of white male tyrany is singing it’s siren song. You’ve lost, guys. It was fun (for you) while it lasted but it’s over now and will never come back. So stop crying about it and join the rest of humanity. At no point did Jesus say, “Love thy neighbor only if they’re exactly like you. And if they’re gay, brown, or a different religion, you can totally ignore this instruction.”

    But then again, Jesus was a brown Jew from the Middle East. Y’all seem to forget that, too.

  191. I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. What does eating pig have to do with anything I’ve written?

  192. You didn’t answer what Phil said. Black Lives Matter should have apologized publicly for contributing to the current kill-the-cops mentality in this nation. They are NOT a Christian organization, they are **poisonous**.

    Policemen and policewomen of all races have been shot at, maimed, killed, injured, AND taunted on top of it, and each time the top BLM leadership absolutely REFUSE to accept any responsibility for what their street-level protesters and allies have done.

    I speak as a Christian black man. I reject Black Lives Matter. They do not follow the living God of love and justice. They follow “That Other Guy” instead.

  193. I don’t need to. But since you’re entirely against BLM, I can safely assume you support the KKK, going by your logic.

  194. Lol what are you talking about? What “homosexual movement” speaks out against Christianity? I know dozens of gay Christians.

    Maybe, you should stop speaking out against the gay movement? Because it’s your hate that begets all your troubles. If you didn’t hate gays, you wouldn’t be worried about them hating you.

    And yes, i can speak to your hubris, because here you are proudly announcing that your biases are the correct biases and anyone else’s are wrong. If you’ve decided you’re absolutely and inerrantly right, you’re wearing a crown of pride. And we all know that’s a sin.

  195. That’s because you read pro-life propaganda, so you’re looking for affirmation bias.

  196. Its amazing the level of hostility and malice directed towards Ms. Hatmaker because she considers the lives of her children and friends when declaring a moral and religious stance. The most basic level of compassion one exhibits, towards one’s own children and friends is what is being criticized, piloried and defamed by a whole bunch of self-righteous fundamentalist bible thumpers.

    She supports BLM because her son could easily be one of the many victims it addresses just on the basis of his age, gender and race. She supports gay marriage because it is the compassionate thing to do. Being LGBT is not cause for attacking people.

    Despite the natterings of some of the posters, she did not say she was in favor of abortion rights. But she also was critical of the conservative mindset that the children should starve to death because their mother was unchaste.

    If such stances are somehow “ungodly” or “heretical” then it speaks poorly of Christian notions of compassion, propriety or moral fiber. What we would have is someone who has taken compassionate stances IN SPITE of Christian belief rather than because of it.

  197. My favorite anti-choice bit of legislation are those states that require abortion providers to take ultrasounds before termination. It’s entirely useless, because EVERY SINGLE PERSON receiving prenatal care, whether it’s for carrying to term or terminating receives an ultrasound. They do one at EVERY abortion to determine gestational age.

    It’s just evidence that these legislators are working off of personal bias without any information about how anything actually works. It’s astounding.

  198. Bryan, all he has is stereotypes and assumptions because he doesn’t KNOW anything else. He doesn’t know scripture, and probably has never met an actual living breathing Christian in his life. Take away his bigotry and he’s left with no voice at all — so you’ll never get him to drop them and engage you personally. Give it up.

  199. I am convinced that the BIBLE is correct, and that the BIBLE is inerrant.

    Not me, I’m not inerrant. (And absolutely not **you**, right?)

    I don’t care how much you brag about knowing “gay Christians” (oxymoron alert), because I know some too. Most of all, I know what the Bible says, and so do you. I’ve also met ex-gay Christians. They’re not gay or lesbian anymore, Taylor.

    Christ is real. 1 Cor. 6:9-11 and 1 Cor. 10:13 are real. Deal with it.

    I **accept and trust** what the Bible says. You **reject and ignore** what the Bible says. We’re not going to agree on anything. (Except that you have a bad habit of hating on Bible-believers, apparently. Can we agree on that?)

  200. The AMA was vehemently opposed to it as an abuse of medical procedures for the sole purposes of creating burdens on the ability of poor women to get to the few remaining providers

  201. No, my position against BLM, as I have said, is based on its hateful words and deeds. The logical extension of that is that I would oppose the KKK for the same reasons. And, of course, I do. In fact, the KKK is far more evil than the BLM movement. You should take a course in logic. You should also quit putting words in people’s mouths. I never said I was “entirely against BLM” as you claim. I simply asked Jen why she wasn’t troubled by its hateful words and deeds. You accused me of making a lot of assumptions in asking that question. I responded that when she gives her unqualified support to the movement, I think my assumption is reasonable. You have given me no reason to think otherwise. You say “I don’t need to.” My guess is, if you could, you would.

  202. Why? I’ve been called all manner of nasty things on this forum and it hasn’t bothered me one bit.

  203. What “scientific evidence”? You mean that a fetus is formed in the womb? This isn’t news.

  204. I don’t care that you as a black Christian man don’t support BLM. That genuinely doesn’t affect me at all.

    Police have been targeted before Black Lives Matter and will continue to be targeted after. Black people have been targeted before Black Lives Matter and will continue to after.

    I see Christian leadership refuse to accept responsibility for things like sex abuse by ministers, Christian terrorism, and the KKK. Does that mean I should reject Christianity entirely?

  205. The problem is that there is no such thing as police protection NOW. I already live where there is no police protection, only police murdering innocent citizens. Citizens have to protect themselves from the police until the police understand that they have to police themselves first before they can police the public.

  206. I bet no one has called you a murderer for making an extremely personal decision that has nothing to do with murder.

  207. Well, let’s see. There were the arguments from science about fetal development which you have completely ignored. There was the argument that it was you that started the battle, not me. There was the argument about whether it is “your truth” or “the truth” that should concern us. There was the argument that I’m not looking to control the world unless you think people who favor laws against homicide are trying to “control” the world. There was the argument that saving the life of the mother is grounds for abortion, but that is not the reason for most abortions. And there was the question about what does “faith” have to do with any of this. How’s that, for starters?

  208. Oh don’t worry Spuddie, there’s plenty of “compassionate stances” in this thread.

    I promise you, guaranteed, that NOT ONE POSTER (not even me!), has called for Jen Hatmaker to be:

    *arrested in front of CNN and ABC cameras,
    *handcuffed in rusty handcuffs with the key missing,
    *placed in clearance-rack leg-irons that are two sizes too tight,
    *sent a-packin’ to the ADX Federal Supermax Prison in Colorado with no air conditioning,
    *along with her criminal mastermind pal Hillary Clinton whose pantsuits look like a hot mess,
    *and put on the Chain Gang (along with Joe Biden, Michelle O, Rachel Maddow, etc).

    Now, you gotta admit Spuds. Doesn’t such restraint on the part of us posters, show tons and tons of the purest compassions and flowery graces?

  209. No, I am working under the ethical position that the unborn child has rights. But let us take your argument a little further. It’s the old and worn-out “the woman has a right to do with her body what she wishes to do.” Two big problems. One, the unborn child is not her body. And, two, most pro-choice people have no qualms about other laws that restrict what a woman (or man) can do with her or his body. For example, we have laws against selling one’s own organs. We have laws against prostitution. We have laws against use of illegal drugs. We have laws against suicide. Imagine a loved one of yours was standing on a bridge preparing to jump to his death. He takes off his shoes, writes a suicide note, tucks the note into his shoes and then climbs up over the railing of the bridge and jumps to his death. Meanwhile, the entire time a police officer has been standing five feet away observing the whole thing but doing nothing to prevent it. I hope you wouldn’t be upset at the police officer. After all, your loved one has the right to do with his body whatever he wishes, does he not?

  210. Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with people who hate themselves so much that they’ll force themselves to be anything but who they are in order to fit into a cultural group that taught them to hate themselves.

    I cannot take you seriously about your claims, because unless you can prove to me that you don’t wear any clothing made out of mixed wool and cotton, never eat shellfish or pork, and wash the feet of the needy, your spurious claim that the Bible supports your hate of gays is lacking.

    I don’t hate on “Bible believers.” I just have a huge problem with people who mistake worshipping God with being God.

  211. I don’t need to defend her views because they are not my views and I am not her. That’s why I’m not doing it, because it would be an exercise in idiocy.

    Meanwhile, you have expressed hate for black people and for gay people, which are two groups that the KKK also hates, AND you’ve expressed frustration that white men get blamed for the actions of other white men. Seems you’re much more aligned with the KKK than you’re willing to admit to yourself.

  212. You are working under the assumption that the unborn have rights that no other human has. It is illegal to force a person to donate their body in whole or in part for any reason, except you would have women forced to do exactly that because you cannot fathom that a woman knows better for herself than you do.

  213. The AMA is little more than a special interest group. The majority of doctors don’t even belong to it. Some don’t belong to it because of its pro-choice position. The question of abortion is an ethical one. So rather than continually referencing the AMA (we all know where it stands) as though that solves the ethical question, tell me why the unborn child is not deserving of protection under the law. Then we can have an ethical discussion.

  214. You made a statement that assumes that no one getting an abortion knows how fetuses are formed. Not an argument, just stupidity. Then you claimed I’m “losing the battle” when polls show that the percentage of people in favor and against abortion has never really changed. Then you said that “you’ve heard” things from women about abortion. Well, I’m a woman who had an abortion and I am grateful I had one and glad I had one. Never depressed about it. I would not be here today if your ilk had forced me to carry to term.

    And what faith has to do with it is this: Men who lack faith need to control the world around them. Since you fear homosexuality and you fear women’s reproductive choices, it is clear that you are a man of little faith. Quoting the Bible does not serve as an indication to your faith. Your angry posts serve as an indication to your lack of trust in the Divine.

  215. How could you possibly claim to know what I read? And, as a matter of fact, you’re wrong. The most recent thing I read about the reality of post-abortion depression was in the journal, Psychology Today.

  216. Which is a ridiculous and unethical position.

    A fetus (children are born) lives solely due to the mother’s will that it live. One cannot assert a right for one without attacking the mother’s bodily autonomy. The right to make personal and intimate decisions as to what goes on in her body. At no point does your POV ever take into account that a woman has rights over her body and can make her own decisions. Its all about ignoring her existence to focus on the fetus.

    No other being on the planet has such conditional rights. Therefore your notion of fetal rights is illusory. Unlike any born being on the planet, a fetus survives only because of the bodily systems of its mother. There is no analogy or analogue close to such a situation.

    “One, the unborn child is not her body”

    Unless you can take possession of it from her, it is always going to be her concern and hers alone. What you are saying is that a woman must defer to you for decisions concerning what goes on in her body.

    “most pro-choice people have no qualms about other laws that restrict what a woman (or man) can do with her or his body.”

    Nonsense. One’s body is their own. Bodily autonomy is the basis for all liberties. If one does not control their body, they are property of the state.

    We have laws against prostitution because of the human trafficking element to it as well as public health issues. People who have sex on film for money are still very much legal.

    We have laws against use of illegal drugs. No actually we don’t. We criminalize sales and possession. We criminalize drug use when driving or public intoxication (as a nuisance to others).

    We do not really criminalize suicide either. A failed attempt at suicide doesn’t bring up prosecution.

    Analogy is what people use when they can’t argue a point on its own facts. As you do here.

  217. I have yet to hear evidence as to why post-abortion depression is a reason to ban abortion. We’ve already discussed postpartum depression. If you think depression is so bad, why not just ban pregnancy alltogether?

  218. Your assertions here make you less and less credible. At no point can you make a good faith claim that they are lying to suit the agenda you claim. (By all means cough up some tangible proof from a source which can be considered objectively reliable).

    Same can’t ever be said about the anti-abortion POV. Lying is second nature to them.

  219. That’s great for him and for you. No one suggests he’s a monster, except, oddly, you.

  220. No one is saying fetuses don’t deserve protection under the law. There are plenty of laws in place protecting fetuses. However, we cannot grant fetuses special rights that absolutely no other living human is deserving of.

    Even if you were the only person on earth who had a kidney that matched my needs, no one could force you to give it to me, even if not getting that kidney would mean my death. Bodily autonomy deserves absolute protection under the law.

  221. Any law that suggests that it is right on the basis of his treatable illness to deprive him of his life without his consent is a law that treats him as sub-human. “Monster” may not be a word that you would prefer, but what other word do we use in literature or conversation to describe that which is sub-human but humanoid?

  222. Having had an abortion and having given birth, I can tell you I experienced exactly the same “depression” after giving birth that I did after termination. In fact, it was worse after my baby was born. It’s hormonal. Your body resets itself and that includes certain fluctuations hormonally, which affect your mood.

    But, again, since depression is SO BAD, why not just ban the whole pregnancy scheme altogether? Then no one would be depressed.

  223. You’re the one calling him sub human and monster.

    Please address your preconceptions.

  224. Kudos to Jen Hatmaker. This is what Christianity in action looks like, smells, sounds like and acts like. If Christian churches walked the talk like this their worship services would be overflowing. It really is all about love at the core.

  225. Abortion has the nasty habit of killing unborn children. You simplistically write off the entire anti-abortion crowd as bringing “hysteria and misrepresentations.” You’re guilty of the very hysteria you accuse others of. The fact of the matter is, there are many serious ethical thinkers who find abortion to be murder. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is considered one of the greatest ethicists of the 20th century and he considered abortion to be murder. But you don’t have to go back to Bonhoeffer. There are plenty of contemporary ethicists who agree with him. Give me an ethical argument to ground the practice of abortion and then we can have a discussion. Citing the AMA, which you are so fond of doing, is not an argument.

  226. Using the words bothers you? Treating him that way does not? Strange.

  227. No, Taylor, she said he WASN’T a monster. And she said that in response to someone who argued that it would have been proper to take his life away while he was still in the womb. That was simply her way of making the point that he turned out fine. Quit trying to put words in her mouth.

  228. I’m not suggesting that he is a monster. I’m pointing out that our law treats him as though he were. By your logic, the one who should point out that legal involuntary servitude makes a man no more than property is the one who has made the man no more than property. No, he’s the one pointing out the barbaric implication of the law, and by doing so, seeking to get others to act with generosity against their self-interest and stop treating him as property.

  229. As for my preconceptions, they are that all human beings are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

  230. No one used the word monster to describe this boy except for her. I’m not putting words in her mouth. I am going off of what she’s saying.

  231. The only people treating him like a monster are the ones suggesting that people consider him a monster and subhuman. I certainly don’t consider someone a monster or subhuman because they’re born without a heart, and when I terminated my pregnancy because my uterus ruptured, I certainly did not consider my fetus to be a monster or subhuman.

    I find it interesting that only anti-choice people assume that the reason people terminate is because they think of the fetuses as “subhuman.” The rest of us know fetuses are just as human as anyone else. And because of that, they do not deserve extra rights that no other human being has.

  232. ***with HALF a heart.

    The only people without hearts are the ones posting comments about how horrible this Jen woman is for loving her neighbor as she was commanded.

  233. The right not to have your skull crushed by a physician because you have a treatable illness is not an “extra right that no other human being has.” Who else does not have this right?

  234. Again, laws enabling termination of fetuses with defects do not assume the fetuses are monsters or subhuman. You’re the one who is making that claim.

  235. Incest is often non-consensual in humans, though I suppose it can be. I actually have no issue with polygamy as long as everyone is consenting, because, again, other people’s consensual relationships cause no harm. And your other example was killing a rival’s offspring, hence murder.

  236. Hope that irrelevant tirade makes you feel better now. Sadly, what you wrote has virtually nothing to do with my post. I don’t believe in any mythology of righteous white Christian men. I’m not holding all black people accountable for the acts of a few (the only part of your post that actually had anything to do with mine). I’m holding the leadership of BLM responsible for the actions of that particular group. Nothing more. You ought to proofread your own posts more carefully and maybe you would have spotted your wild contradiction. You write at the beginning about the Christian white male, “You guys literally have everything.” Toward the end you write, “You’ve lost guys… it’s over now…” Which is it?

  237. Children are born. A fetus is unborn. Given your complete and total indifference along with outright fictions concerning the pregnant women integral to this issue, your concern for life appears most hypocritical and blinkered. As if the only concern for life is when it is gestating. After birth, they are unworthy of consideration.

    “Dietrich Bonhoeffer is considered one of the greatest ethicists of the 20th century and he considered abortion to be murder.”

    He was a Catholic. He also opposed contraception as well. Nobody is perfect. His work suffers from two things: 1) rigid adherence to dogma which blinded him to the ethical pitfalls of his own faith (and its horrific notions of personal autonomy) and 2) being misappropriated by those who want to claim their religion gives them license to attack the rights of others.

    “Give me an ethical argument to ground the practice of abortion and then we can have a discussion. ”

    It is not your business or right to interfere with the personal and intimate choices a woman can make concerning what goes on in her body. Her autonomy is more important than your opinion. A woman is not your property nor subject to your approval for such a decision. It is unethical and immoral to intercede into such decisions as it attacks a woman’s personhood and existence as a human being. A fetus gets no such consideration because it has no independent existence to her will prior to birth/viability.

    There, done. Your ethical argument delivered to you on a silver platter.

  238. Lots of women experience depression after giving birth, too. It’s called postpartum depression. Funny how I never hear pro-lifers talk about that when they go on and on about how depressed women will get by terminating their unwanted pregnancies.

  239. Uh, that’s not how abortions are performed. The majority of later term abortions are generally just deliveries.

  240. Your first paragraph says a lot about you. You don’t care about the feelings of a man who wrote from his heart. Your loss.

    As for Christian leadership, many such leaders have accepted responsibility for the evils you mention. So, no, you don’t need to reject Christianity entirely. Just reject those leaders (and their followers) who refuse to accept responsibility. Just as floydlee rejects BLM for not accepting responsibility for the evils done by their followers.

  241. You missed the point that you’re losing everything because no one cares about old hateful white Christian men anymore except for old hateful white Christian men.

  242. floydlee, thank you for your support and your ethical stance.

  243. She didn’t describe the boy as a monster. She said he WASN’T a monster. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

  244. Pretty sure he doesn’t care about my feelings, either. You’ve been all over this comments section displaying how much you hate women, queer people, and people of color, so I’m not really concerned with your opinion of me.

  245. Shouldn’t he just reject the LEADERS of the movement that refuse to accept responsibility instead of the movement as a whole? Why should I selectively reject just certain leaders of the Christian movement that uphold support for their pedophiles and sex abusers and terrorists? If it’s okay for him to reject the movement as a whole because of some of its leaders, shouldn’t I be rejecting Christianity as a whole because of some of its leaders?

  246. You missed the point that you said “you guys literally have everything” which is present tense and later “it’s over now” which is also present tense. You can’t have it both ways. In any event, most white Christian men are neither old nor hateful. Your tirade above shows who the hateful one is. You also missed the point about holding the leadership of the BLM (not all Black people) responsible for the actions of the group they lead.

  247. Again, NO ONE except her used the word “monster.” Which means SHE was the person who needed to recalibrate her settings and realize that people with genetic defects aren’t monsters.

    Us normal people with functional capacity for compassion wouldn’t even need to think, “That person’s not a monster!” as a defensive mechanism, because we wouldn’t consider that person to be one in the first place.

    I know, it must be very difficult for you to understand, but in order for her to even need to say, “He’s not a monster!” she must be operating under some sort of mental pattern that innately identifies the disabled as monsters, and she needed to learn to get over that. If she hadn’t used the word “monster” herself, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If she assumes that people view this boy as a monster, that’s her problem with her world view. Again, most of us normal people don’t view a child with disabilities as a monster and would never even mention that “he’s not” one.

  248. I cannot stop laughing. You’re a grammatician now?

    Black Lives Matter does not have a centralized single leadership organization. It’s as idiotic for me to hold all of BLM and it’s leaders responsible for the acts of few as it is for me to hold all of Christianity and it’s leaders responsible for the acts of a few. Yet, you insist that we MUST hold all of BLM responsible for the acts of few and that we also must NOT hold Christianity responsible for the acts of few.

    YOU can’t have it both ways.

    And if laughing about the end of white male supremacy makes me “hateful,” fine, bring it. At least I don’t waste my days hating gay people and women and black people because I think that God told me to.

  249. I would think not because many Christian leaders have condemned those evil acts. I don’t know of any BLM leaders who have condemned the evil acts of some of its followers. The only ones I’ve heard have encouraged it. But if you think not enough Christians have opposed the evils you mentioned, then by all means reject Christianity. Your call.

  250. Maybe you should go pray or volunteer in a hospital. You’re clearly not helping your spirit with all your hateful comments. Maybe if you acted more Christlike I would be more inclined to listen to you.

  251. I don’t hate women, queer people or people of color. Show me one thing I’ve said that would suggest otherwise.

  252. Not enough leaders of Christianity oppose the evils of hatred and gay bashing. You’re up here all angry that a single a Christian woman decided gays have a right to live in peace with the rest of us. The day Christian leaders decide to tell their flocks that we should stop hating people for their sexual preference is the day Christian leadership begins to gain credibility. As long as mainstream Christianity attempts to impose its absolutely unscientific and absolutely immoral world view on the rest of us, I feel no need to accept mainstream Christianity. Christ was not Christian and neither is God or the Bible. Or America, for that matter.

  253. You laugh to cover the fact that you can’t explain you contradiction. I answer your question about Christianity and BLM in a post below. I also answer your charge that I hate gay people, women and black people.

  254. Dude, you haven’t made a single comment that suggests you DONT hate gays, black people, or women. In fact, you’ve spent quite a bit of time yelling at a woman for her views on homosexuality as if YOUR opinion should have any bearing on her life. That comes from 1- your hatred of gay people 2- your hatred of women and your need to control how women believe, especially Christian women, and 3- your lack of faith in God. If you actually were a religious person, you’d be praying and volunteering and serving right now, not wasting your time acting self-righteous in the comments section.

    And before you berate me, know that I’m on my way to work at a hospice. So have a nice day. I hope your anger and hate keep you warm at night.

  255. I laughed because I was commuting and not particularly paying attention to the tenses I used.

    You don’t answer my charge about your hatred by saying “prove it.” You’ve proven it to me with every word I’ve read. You think gay people are sinners: hate. You think women are so dumb that when they get abortions they don’t even know that a fetus has been developing inside of them: hate. You think all people who support Black Lives Matter support killing cops: hate. You haven’t made a single post that proves you don’t hate gay people or women or black people.

    If you didn’t hate gay people, you wouldn’t be so personally offended by Jen Hatmaker’a shift of personal views.

  256. Actually, it’s the mainstream Christian denominations that have been most supportive of gay rights. I’m referring to such denominations as the Methodists, the UCC, the ELCA Lutherans and the Presbyterians. But if you want to reject Christianity, by all means do so. i haven’t pushed Christianity in any post I’ve written.

  257. Like I said below, I’m about to begin my shift at a hospice. I recommend you go do something to serve humanity, too, instead of being a miserable denizen of the comments sections

  258. You must be thinking of someone else. I haven’t said a word about homosexuality. I have been a supporter of gay rights for more than a quarter of a century. Nor have I said anything hateful about women or people of color. I really think you have me confused with someone else. When you get back from your hospice work, look back through the posts and see if you can find anything I’ve said that would support your charges.

  259. Wrong, wrong and wrong. I never said gay people are sinners. In fact, I haven’t talked about gay people on this site, but I fully support gay rights. I never said women don’t know that a fetus has been developing inside them (I said most people, that would include men and women, don’t know just how fully human the unborn child is). And I never said that all people who support BLM support killing cops. I think you conflate my writings with those of someone else. Show me where I have said any of those things and I will retract the statement. In the meantime, I hope you get things right at the hospice, at least.

  260. No, but a woman who is still pregnant isn’t a murderer either by any estimation.

    The point is, people don’t fall apart over other people’s opinion all by itself. That requires some nagging already present in one’s own conscience.

  261. Well, Shawnie5, I have to disagree with you. As I said, there were about 16 or 17 other common words that Paul could have used for “homosexual”, but he didn’t. He coined another word altogether. It would be like if I wanted to describe a window fan (something that’s currently blowing in my bedroom), but I didn’t call it a “window fan”; rather I called it “ventus-apparatus”. If you heard me say the word “ventus-apparatus”, you might first think that I’m trying to cast some spell out of a Harry Potter book. Then you might be confused, thinking that I’m talking about a leaf blower, a hair dryer, a paint removing gun, a window fan, a ceiling fan, or some other machine that blows air. I could just as easily used the word “window fan”, but like Paul, I came up with my own word; using two Latin words to try to get my point across.
    It simply makes no sense that Paul would have come up with his own word if he knew there were other words he could have used that people commonly used in his era to describe homosexual or homosexuality. And that’s if we are to believe that the King James Version of the Bible was correctly translated. This translation of the Bible came some 1600 years after Christ’s death and some 1500 years after the last books of the New Testament were complete.
    And let’s not forget that it took nearly 5 centuries for various groups, religious leaders, emperors, etc. to create a final version of the Christian Bible. During that time the books, the contents of the books, major players in the books, etc. were argued over by these important people. Some oral and written material was included in the final Books of the Bible and some were not.
    We like to think that the Bible was sent down from heaven, wrapped in cellophane and ready for us to read and use. But it wasn’t.
    Imagine 5 centuries of our government (senate, congress, president, supreme court, state and local officials) trying to decide on what should be included in the Constitution. Something legal (such as slavery) is no longer legal in this country. Women now have rights and protections that they didn’t have when our country first started. Our constitution is being shaped and reshaped, much in the same way that the Books of the Bible were created.
    I’m sure those who had a hand in creating the Books of the Bible didn’t always see eye-to-eye. Some had very strong feelings that God was moving them in certain ways, while others had the same strong feelings that God was moving them in a totally different way.
    Scripture is a tool. To me, it’s a good starting point. But when I want to know what God wants for me, I go straight to the source. And I’ve done that. When I finally stopped begging God for what “I” wanted (namely to be straight) and asked God what He wanted for me, that was when He VERY clearly filled me with his almighty love and peace; touching my soul and telling me that He had made me as He made me; that He wanted me to be happy.
    I had spent most of my life at that point (from my years in grade school through graduate school) hating myself; always fearing that someone would suspect my being gay; terrified that my parents would learn of my attractions and put me out of the home.
    Hating myself for being gay (such a small aspect of my character) makes about as much sense as hating myself if I were left-handed or had green eyes. It makes no sense.
    You said that you had once chosen the wrong way at some point in your life–that in hindsight it is obvious. But I look back over my own life and the most miserable period of my life involved the many, many years that I denied who God had made me to be. Since that time, God has blessed me time and again.
    It’s not all sunshine and roses. No one has that kind of life. And I don’t always follow God’s desires for me. Sometimes God wants me to go in one direction and I think I know better. But in the end, I tend to come around. He can be very convincing when He needs to be. Surely you’ve fought God too–unknowingly–just like me.
    But being gay, that’s just not an issue anymore.
    I only wish you could experience what I experienced so that you would know what I know to be true.
    If you want to know what God wants of you, then you go to God. You can use Scripture for guidance, but a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit will not lead you astray.

  262. Depression is the result of a lot more than nagging in one’s conscience. Plenty of women give birth to healthy, beautiful children and still end up with postpartum depression. The causes are not entirely clear, but one culprit is probably the hormonal changes due to the end of the pregnancy. However a pregnancy ends, there are going to be biochemical factors at play.

  263. Bonhoeffer was actually Lutheran, and engaged to be married at the time of his death. It’s not really relevant, just sharing–I thought he was Catholic too until I recently read a biography of him.

  264. Those supposed 4% (who I guess are dead, so can’t be calling anyone pigs) are so totally not relevant to this peice. But judging by all your other comments, you’re just a troll.
    Edited for spelling.

  265. The problem is, Taylor, is that “your truth” is not “THE TRUTH”. God’s Word is THE TRUTH. His standard and expectation is what we are to go by as Christians. If abortion was a needed medical necessity to save your life, that makes sense but for the other 99% it doesn’t. Speaking with hundreds of men and women suffering from Post Abortion Trauma as they share their hurt, their loss, and their devastation and them acknowledging their trauma proves that many were misinformed about how the aftermath of the abortion would affect them. Many have taken on addictive behaviors to numb themselves from the pain of post abortion. Most regret their choice and would go back and change their decision if they could. The battle truly is spiritual. Our prayer is is that you start to see that all life is sacred and enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ. He is the One that truly can transform a life from the inside out.

  266. Our bodies are not our own, we’ve been bought with a price, a ransom paid for us. Your body is a temple of the living God. It is not your own and therefore you cannot do what you please without there being consequences.

  267. You learn something new every day!

    I know there was a big kerfluffle with Eric Metaxas trying to appropriate Bonhoeffer for his brand of Dominionist evangelical protestant beliefs. The man was far from the Evangelical belief-set.

  268. ‘A fetus (children are born) lives solely due to the mother’s will that it live.’ Actually, it is beyond the mother’s will. If a pregnant woman ended up in a coma and was receiving nutrients and care, the baby would continue to grow and thrive regardless of the mother’s will.

  269. If a pregnant woman is in a car accident, she and the baby end up dying, then that is considered two deaths. The child is separate from her (dependent for the time being but still separate from her with it’s own DNA). Personhood begins at conception. I know you don’t want to acknowledge that but that is the truth. If people don’t want to get pregnant – then don’t have sex or get fixed whereas pregnancy can be prevented (although even that is not 100% foolproof). Reality and truth say that if you are having sex – you risk getting pregnant – woman up and handle that reality if you are willing to take the risk!

  270. You are saying that a pregnant woman is property of the state. That is some pretty nasty stuff. I don’t give a rat’s posterior what you think God says on the subject. It has no bearing to anyone besides yourself. Your beliefs are not the business of anyone else. Religious freedom means nobody ever has to care what you think God says on a given subject nor can be made to care.

    You may have a dim view of the personal autonomy of yourself and others, but it is paramount to the laws of a free and democratic society. Personal autonomy is the basis from which all other rights flow from. If you don’t have freedom over your own body, you have no freedoms for anything. Our laws and our society put the onus on the state to justify intrusions into the personal freedoms of others. They have to explain why they are intruding. It is not up to us to justify why we are free.

  271. In that situation we are not talking about abortion rights. But its good to know you would rather deal with analogy than address the issue at hand. I

    f one is in a coma, they cannot consent to anything concerning their body absent some kind of pre-coma proxy or family member acting on their behalf.

  272. Depends on the state and the influence of fetus worshipers on the legislature there. Losing a pregnancy is generally considered an act against the mother for litigation or criminal prosecution matters.

    Personhood begins at birth. Personhood is a legal status. We do not have conception certificates or record it as the beginning of one’s legal existence. We record birth for such situations.

    “If people don’t want to get pregnant – then don’t have sex or get fixed whereas pregnancy can be prevented…”

    And here comes the s1utshaming and judgmental behavior which always lies behind the surface of alleged pro-life concerns. So if a woman has an unplanned pregnancy, she automatically loses all sense of bodily autonomy and must defer her decisions to a lippy outsider for her decisions?
    Hell no!

    Having an opinion as to a woman’s life is not the same thing as having a say. You don’t have to approve of or like her choices. It is not subject to your approval or opinion. Of course you get right to the heart of the hostility fetus worshipers have with the born. You consider giving birth a penalty for a woman’s actions rather than a life which needs to be taken care of. Of course people like yourself also couldn’t care less about women who are raped or abortions for medical reasons. Its all about feeling superior to them and pretending their lives are of no importance to the issue at hand.

  273. Ethical implies adherence to moral standards. Where do you get your standards from?

  274. Which God’s word is the truth? I have a hard time believing that a religion followed by only 1/7th of the planet is the only possible thing that could possibly true. You probably do, too, which is why you need to insist so hard. I don’t need to have a relationship with a dead guy to have a relationship with God, thanks. Jesus and I share the same religion and I’m not in any need of your fake religion.

  275. There is nothing moral or ethical about interjecting yourself into the personal decisions of others where you are not welcomed and represents a trespass upon their lives.

    I get my standards from being a human being who not only appreciates personal liberty but also the lives of people in the here and now.

    Your concern for life is not only conditional but transitory. Only the gestating are worthy of consideration. All others are treated with indifference or hostility. There is nothing ethical or moral about such a ridiculously blinkered view.

  276. Paul has the perfect words to describe Jen Hatmaker:

    “”If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine and teaching which is in agreement with godliness (personal integrity, upright behavior),

    4 he is conceited and woefully ignorant [understanding nothing]. He has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, which produces envy, quarrels, verbal abuse, evil suspicions,

    I Timothy 6:3-4 (AMP)”

  277. “there were about 16 or 17 other common words that Paul could have used for “homosexual” Yet the one he DID use broadly encompasses all the others.

    “If you heard me say the word “ventus-apparatus”, you might first think that I’m trying to cast some spell out of a Harry Potter book. Then you might be confused” Except that we are not confused. The kind of word Paul (may have) coined here is not unknown in Koine Greek. Examples include “metrokoite,” “polukoite,” “doulukoite,” and “deuterokoite,” and even an instance of “onokoite.” We have no problem translating any of those. Arsenokoite is neither different nor mysterious.

    “And that’s if we are to believe that the King James Version of the Bible was correctly translated.” We need not rely on translations at all. The original Greek still exists. The most literal rendition of the operative word is “man-bedders.” In the ordinary parlance of the 1600s this meant “sodomites.” Today we’re more likely to say “homosexuals.” Whatever idiom you use, it still means men who sleep with men.

    “And let’s not forget that it took nearly 5 centuries for various groups, religious leaders, emperors, etc. to create a final version of the Christian Bible.” Not really. The canon of the NT was largely set by the middle of the 2nd century AD. The Muratorian Fragment lists them all with the exception of James, Hebrews and the Petrines. All of the books in the Hebrew Bible were accepted outright because Jesus taught from them (the Catholic Bible includes the Apochrypha because they were included in the Septuagint but they were never referenced by Christ or the apostles). If you suppose there were early Jewish or Christian works that affirmed same-sex relations but were deleted, I’m afraid you have been sold a bill of goods. No evidence of any such thing exists.

    “You can use Scripture for guidance, but a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit will not lead you astray.” Scripture will not lead us astray, Tom, and the Holy Spirit will not contradict to the individual what He revealed to the prophets: “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything. Hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.” 1 Thess.5:20-22.

    It’s a dangerous thing to try to minimize scripture, Tom. Jesus opened His ministry with it, closed His ministry with it, taught from it continuously, upbraided the people for not knowing it, and ultimately fulfilled it. And yet, “if they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they listen even if someone rises from the dead.” Luke 16:31.

  278. here is the difference Phil. they were UNJUSTLY killed by those who are supposed to PROTECT us. i dont care if they had a long history of pedophilia ( and i am a survivor of it for almost a year between 8-10, so yeah one of the crimes i would kill someone if i caught them doing it), unless they ARE armed, in their hand, or physically assaulting them, not just resisting arrest (because i know someone who was resisting because he was trying to rape her). most cops are good, i dont agree with anyone killing a cop, unless he has gone bad. but there have been ARE too many deaths of people that SHOULDNT have happened, and yes it has happened to white people as well, but not as many. now if you are advancing on an officer, and seem to be reaching for a gun, and are NOT doing as ordered, sorry its your own fault. but too many have been following orders, or were not able to comprehend the situation, etc. to react in a proper way and were NOT threatening.

  279. And there you have your cause of postpartum depression. Hardly the opinion of faceless strangers.

  280. One side will never gain ground over the other side with arguing. You have two completely different mindsets that cannot see from the others point of view. Pro-choice does not see the fetus as a baby. And therefore, has no moral issues with terminating it’s existence. Pro-life views the fetus as a living baby with the same rights as everyone else. Which is why abortion is horror in their eyes, and completely murder. And like anyone who believed a great injustice was being done, they’re passionate. I am one of those who is passionate. A great wrong has been done to women over the centuries. They were given no rights and treated less than dirt. A man could leave a woman and only she would be shamed. And if there was a child or children she was left to care for them in a world that didn’t care for her. But two wrongs don’t make a right. That is a child, it is life, and so very precious. And it is selfishness and desperation that causes a woman to cling to the notion otherwise. However to confess that belief would mean that they again are at the mercy of being told they don’t matter. I am completely against abortion, but I also realize it was the church and male dominance that brought women to this place. You can’t fix the one, without fixing the other.

  281. If they did, it would not disturb me one iota if I were firmly persuaded of the rightness of my choice. At some point one has to be an adult and grow a skin.

  282. Um, I do see the fetus as a baby, and I’m still pro-choice, but thanks for telling me you think you know my thoughts better than I do.

  283. meanwhile, my uterus ruptured with my second pregnancy and I had to terminate or risk leaving my first child alone with no one to care for her, so please continue to be passionate about why you think I should’ve died instead of terminate.

  284. Being gay and “Abandoning moral convictions” are not the same thing.

    Are you telling us that, without Christianity to guide you, you’d be out there having lots of gay sex?

    That’s you, dude. No one else.

  285. I’m not talking about abortion due to health risks where it’s one life or the other. I’m sorry I’ve made you defensive. You’re a good person and most likely an amazing mother. This isn’t an attack on you. I’m sure what you went through was extremely hard. My stance is on abortion used as birth control.

  286. Here’s one post that points to your hatred of black people. You keep claiming that four percent – which is really not a significant amount of an organization – of BLM wants to murder cops. First of all, you haven’t provided us with any evidence to this statistic. Second of all, you have married yourself to this unsupported statistic in order to defend why you don’t support a movement that insists that all people are equal, even black people.

    If you weren’t entirely racist, you would realize that negligible four percent is completely and entirely irrelevant. It’s a lot more than four percent of the Christian establishment that hates gays, rails against Muslims and women, and yet you still insist that it’s perfectly fine to support Christianity and that one shouldn’t reject Christianity because of its dastardly moral failures.

  287. Here’s a post which suggests you hate gay people – although the fact that you’ve bothered to go and comment on and yell at every single person who has commented on this post with affirmative support for Jen Hatmaker speaks even louder volumes as to your compulsive need to make sure no one accepts homosexuality.

  288. I never said that four percent of BLM wants to murder cops. When I satirically referred to the “4% of Black Lives Matter” movement I was referring to the fact that BLM only seems to care about the 4% of Black homicide victims who are shot by cops (and the fact that 4% of Black homicide victims are killed by cops has been so heavily covered that I don’t really think I need to document it here – but if you insist I’ll find it for you, although I find it hard to believe you haven’t seen the statistic yourself). The other 96% who are shot by civilians don’t draw protests. Just as some pro-choice people correctly point out that some anti-abortion people don’t seem to care about the child after birth and that that is hypocritical (and I agree), I would say the same about BLM not caring about all the other Black victims of homicide.

    I didn’t say that one should not reject Christianity. In fact, just the opposite: I said if you find the weight of Christian intolerance to be justification for rejecting it, by all means do so. I wrote that to you in a previous post.

    So, meanwhile, I wait on the evidence that I hate Black people.

  289. I see nothing which suggests that I hate gay people. As I told you before, I have been a strong supporter of gay rights for a quarter of a century. You wrote to me: “In fact, you’ve spent quite a bit of time yelling at a woman for her views on homosexuality as if YOUR opinion should have any bearing on her life.” I’ll make you a deal and then we can put an end to this nonsense. Show me where I did that and I’ll contribute $50 to a charity of your choice. But if you can’t show me, you contribute $50 to a charity of my choice. Do we have a deal? Even if you don’t want to make that deal (which would be smart on your part), I would at least expect an apology if you can’t provide the evidence.

  290. P.S. I never commented on Hatmaker’s support for homosexuality. I happen to agree with her. I have almost exclusively commented on her support for BLM.

  291. As I stated previously, you have chosen to comment and instigate arguments with people who post affirmative support for Jen’s post. All people who support her view on gay rights, which you claim to be in favor of. Yet you got preoccupied by her support for Black Lives Matter,
    and while claiming you aren’t racist continue to fixate on some strange statistic that you refuse to provide any evidence for. Your need to berate her for something that you yourself won’t even back up leads me to believe that your motivations are not innocent.

  292. It isn’t possible for same sex romantic and or sexual relationships to be holy. Nor is it holy in any way to support in any way abortion.

  293. Less than 1% of all abortions are performed to save the life of the mother.

  294. 100% of abortions are none of your business unless you or your partner are involved.

  295. All vulnerable human life is the responsibility of all humanity.

  296. I agree, and all human life is vulnerable. 100% of abortions have nothing to do with you.

  297. You seem confused. In your third paragraph you write “There is no analogy or analogue close to such a situation.” What I don’t understand is why you would look for one because in your last paragraph you write, “Analogy is what people use when they can’t argue a point…” You can’t have it both ways.

    Contrary to what you say in your second paragraph, you can assert rights for the unborn child which may be counter to a woman’s “decisions as to what goes on in her body.” Pregnant women have been charged with crimes for taking illegal drugs (or doing other things) which harmed the unborn child. So, yes, there are fetal rights. They are not illusory. And they are likely to be extended in the future, not restricted, as science teaches us more and more about the nature of the unborn child.

    No, I am not saying the woman must defer to me, I’m saying she must defer to the law. If bodily autonomy is absolute as you say, then laws against prostitution would not be tolerable even for reasons of human trafficking or public health. Furthermore, if bodily autonomy is absolute as you say, then laws limiting abortion at certain stages of pregnancy would not be constitutional.

    Contrary to what you say about suicide, the following can be found on the Mental Health Daily website: “In some cases though, suicide is considered “common law crime” unless the victim can be proven to have been of “unsound mind.” Most lawsuits regarding suicide happen when the person is under supervision of a jail or hospital and the victim’s family sues these institutions for negligence.” But why should there be such lawsuits if “One’s body is their own.”?

    No laws against drug use? Then why the effort to legalize marijuana? You agree that we have laws that criminalize possession. Don’t you think someone using it would be guilty of possession? The following is from the legal website “NOLO”: “But unprescribed and unsupervised use of these substances (and many others) is thought to present a danger to individuals and to society in general. So, for decades, lawmakers have stepped in to regulate the use, abuse, manufacture, and sale of illegal drugs.” Did you see the word “use” there? I hope so.

    I notice you ducked my question about selling one’s organs. Another restriction that undercuts your notion that bodily autonomy is absolute.

    Analogies can be perfectly appropriate in argument, but I can understand why you would close by suggesting otherwise (even though you seemed open to them in your third paragraph), since you clearly don’t want to answer my hypothetical question about the policeman who idly stood by while your loved one committed suicide.

  298. What happens to humanity’s most vulnerable is all of humanity’s responsibility.

  299. Seriously. That guy has spent hours on this thread alone, mostly just insulting and being toxic.

  300. All of humanity is humanity’s most vulnerable. 100% of abortions have nothing to do with you.

  301. That’s absurd. There are a lot of people, including many Black people, who find the BLM movement to be offensive. Does that mean they all hate Black people? You’ve criticized certain groups within Christianity. I’ve never suggested that that means that you hate Christians. There are people critical of the NAACP. Does that automatically mean they hate Black people? There are people critical of certain movements within Judaism. Does that mean that they hate all Jews?

  302. You’ve done nothing to prove to me you don’t hate black people and you’ve spent a considerable amount of your time today trying to tell people that supporting a black right’s movement is wrong.

    If you weren’t fixated on black people for some reason, you wouldn’t have done that.

  303. Because I understand that ALL human life is valuable and you only value fetuses? I’m not concerned with your opinion. Just like abortions, my life has nothing to do with you.

  304. All human life is valuable. Prove you believe that by protecting the most vulnerable human life. Otherwise no one can take your claim seriously.

  305. Since you can’t seem to find the evidence yourself (and, by the way, have you noticed that no one else on this site has questioned that statistic) here it is from The Wall Street Journal: “Using the 2014 homicide numbers as an approximation of 2015’s, those 662 white and Hispanic victims of police shootings would make up 12% of all white and Hispanic homicide deaths. That is three times the proportion of black deaths that result from police shootings.” (July 9, 2016)

    I’ll do the math for you. If 12% is three times the proportion of Black deaths that result from police shootings, then the percentage for Blacks is 4%. WSJ got their data from the Washington Post.

    Since you haven’t indicated that you will take up my challenge, I will hope for an apology for this accusation you made (but haven’t been able to back up): “In fact, you’ve spent quite a bit of time yelling at a woman for her views on homosexuality as if YOUR opinion should have any bearing on her life.” Waste your evening looking, Taylor, but you’ll never find it. Hopefully you will find the courage to apologize.

  306. I will when you prove you believe that war, guns, and the death penalty are wrong and that abortion in the case of fatal threat to the mother is justified.

  307. I actually noticed that multiple people questioned the statistic.

    I don’t need to apologize to someone who hates black people. Again, spending such a considerable amount of your day arguing against Black Lives Matter does not serve your claims that you don’t.

  308. So I was right. Thank you.

    Less than 1% of all abortions are performed to save the life of the mother. Less than 1%.

  309. Right about what? Tell me that you oppose gun ownership and usage, all war, and the death penalty or I cannot take you seriously.

    My uterus ruptured while pregnant and I terminated my pregnancy to save my life. Should I have died, even though my baby wouldn’t have survived without my body?

  310. I am against war, the death penalty and all violence.

    You made a difficult choice to save your life. I don’t judge you for it. But only 1% of all abortions are performed to save the mothers life. Only 3% of all abortions are due to rape, incest, to save the mothers life or the inviability of the child. I am concerned with the 97%.

  311. Why bother discussing the matter at hand when you can go down a diversion and completely miss the point of various laws. Laws recognizing fetal death are still dependent on the mother. A fetus can’t exert rights greater than the sole source of its existence. Assaults or murder of a pregnant woman is not an analogy to abortion because you are missing the important facts here. First those are attacks on the mother primarily. These are not acts consented to by the mother. They are trespass upon her. Bible thumpers seldom have a concept of consent.

    Your only rebuttal to my point concerning prostitution is to just say “no it isn’t without” bothering to support it. You also deliberately avoid the point that the drug trade is the illegal part, not its use. Being intoxicated is only a crime if in public.

    “Don’t you think someone using it would be guilty of possession”

    Nope. Only if it is physically on their person. The use is not the crime. Ownership is.

    “But why should there be such lawsuits (concerning failure to stop a suicide) if “One’s body is their own.”?

    Because their negligence or intentional actions assisted the suicide. Suicide is a singular action. One doesn’t go after the victim. They go after those who enable it.

    What your little Gish gallop amounts to is deliberate misinterpretation of various laws to stand for the notion one has no rights beyond what the government permits. No matter how arbitrary limitations may be. Very autocratic. Not at all as hoe kit system works.

    Attacking personal autonomy is essentially attacking all liberties of a person. Without autonomy you have no other rights. You clearly consider women to be either your personal property or property of the state.

    Didn’t catch the part about selling organs. Gish gallops frequently involve nonsense points that are easily missed. Organ selling is illegal because it promotes “involuntary donation” and undermines the point of the organ donor list. Which is based on merit and availability rather then wealth.

    Your analogies are garbage based on your willful misrepresentation or ignorance of material facts. I will not discus these diversions any further.

  312. 100% are none of your business and have nothing to do with you.

  313. 100% are all of humanitys business.

    See? I was right about you. No credibility.

  314. Who made you God? Your “live and let live” (or should we say “die”) mentality is a faulty and despicable. What we say and do has an impact on others no matter how you try to downplay that. Like the guy whose married and does porn. No harm, right? Wrong! He has taken what God made special and twisted into pleasure for himself. And the sex actors who are caught up in a sick and twisted life, too. He’s spent money on his addiction and the women acting may have been coerced into that movie. So they are being used and abused. They probably drink and and do drugs to numb herself out. So the drug dealer is profiting from their addiction. The wife is cheated on by her husband in his mind and more than likely his actions to follow. Their marriage is a sham and will never be all it can be because of the addiction. Which more than likely end in divorce if they don’t get help. But we don’t have any business saying anything about his porn addiction, right? Wrong.
    So you get to decide the standard for living? Again, who made you God? You have made yourself an idol and placed yourself on a pedestal. Woe unto you.
    Lastly, you discount the sacredness of life. All life. from embryo to the grave, you do not realize how precious life is –that it is a gift from God. We are to help people at all stages of their lives – is this life to be free to live as you want doing whatever you want? No. There are consequences for our actions. If you think that your existence has no influence over others you are sadly mistaken. And the fact that you are happy to kill babies show the blatant disregard you have for that sacredness. God help you.

  315. And how many women suffer from post-partum depression, Sara?

  316. So it was vile nonsense to belittle BLM. Never mind that black people in police custody are killed in disproportionate levels by population than the rest. You are hostile to them because they are calling attention to endemic racism you are not willing to address.

  317. Again, you’re a complete stranger so your opinion on my credibility bears no weight with me. 100% of abortions have nothing to do with you, and your fixation on women’s uteruses is creepy.

  318. Because women whom have an abortion are more likely to commit suicide. See for yourself:

    *Numerous peer-reviewed medical studies have found an association between abortion and suicide. Many others have found an association between induced abortion and depression, which is a major risk factor for suicide. In fact, between 10 percent and 30 percent of women suffer serious, prolonged negative psychological consequences after abortion.

    *A 1995 study by A.C. Gilchrist in the British Journal of Psychiatry found that in women with no history of psychiatric illness, the rate of deliberate self-harm was 70 percent higher after abortion than after childbirth.

    *A 1996 study in Finland by pro-choice researcher Mika Gissler in the British Medical Journal found that the suicide rate was nearly six times greater among women who aborted than among women who gave birth.

    *A 2002 record-linkage study of California Medicaid patients in the Southern Medical Journal, which controlled for prior mental illness, found that suicide risk was 154 percent higher among women who aborted than among those who delivered.

    Abortion does devastate women. So much so that an increased risk of suicide is prevalent.

  319. The only ones with half a heart here are the ones only concerned with human life for nine months of gestation but are utterly indifferent to life past that point.

  320. Why were you depressed after your abortion?

  321. Thank you once again for proving me correct about you. You obviously care and you haven’t any justification for what you say. What happened with you was a tragedy. Why do you support other tragedies?

    It’s all of humanity’s responsibility to speak up and stand up for our most vulnerable. Best get used to it. It’s not changing.

  322. Unless they are pregnant women or children of poor parents. Then you avoid all responsibility to them.

  323. No one is talking about where there is a true medical necessity for the health of the mother. Goodness.

  324. That’s not a reason to ban abortion. Women suffering from postpartum depression have been known to kill themselves and their babies. Should we ban childbirth?

  325. Nope. Ones body is there business. Your body is yours. Being a self righteous d-bag doesn’t entitle you to a say in the Ives of others. Pretending to have moral high ground doesn’t entitle you to rights over people. Get bent.

  326. Not at all. You should stick to speaking about things you know otherwise you continue to look foolish.

  327. Jen, moral relativism is the undoing of our society. We live in a Laissez Faire society. How’s that working? How does what you stand for match up to God’s Word?

  328. I didn’t see where multiple people questioned the statistic, but I guess that’s a moot point now. I’ve provided evidence and told you where it came from if you want to look yourself. And that’s not the only place I’ve found it. Why don’t you have the honesty to look up the information yourself and if you find that I’m wrong, show me the evidence. But you don’t want to do that, do you? Because you know you will find out that I am right. You have no evidence that I hate Black people. Arguing against Black Lives Matter doesn’t mean I hate Black people no matter how many times you repeat that favorite mantra of yours.

  329. Thank you for proving me right about you. You’re a sad little person who wants to control women’s vaginas. No one cares.

  330. You spending as much time as you do arguing against a movement promoting black rights suggests you do. Maybe examine why you’re so hell bent on discrediting BLM.

  331. Exactly. And the unborn child’s body is their business and since they can’t speak up or stand up for themselves all of humanity is required to be an advocate.

  332. Nope, it’s the person who’s body houses the fetus who’s responsibility it is. Get your mind out of women’s vaginas, pervert.

  333. Please, you think I care about you? You’d prefer I’d die because you’re so obsessed with needing to control what women do with their vaginas. No one cares about your opinion at all.

  334. Nope it’s all of humanity’s responsibility to protect our most vulnerable. It’s a unique human life. Try again.

  335. Because my uterus ruptured which made me need to terminate my pregnancy, asshole.

  336. When you can get a fetus away from its mother, we can talk. Until then it has no existence beyond what it’s mother wills to be so. Until it’s born or viable outside a womb, it has no separate existence. So you have no say in the matter. There is no child to protect. Only a mother to attack.

  337. Because my uterus ruptured which caused me to have to terminate my pregnancy. Go away.

  338. It’s not up to you to decide whether the mother’s reason is legitimate or not. And I have had people tell me I am a murderer for this.

  339. Worse and worse for you…

    I don’t judge you for saving your life. Why are you judging those that want to save others lives? You only continue to prove you have no credibility.

  340. Science tells us there is a unique human life that exists. Try again.

  341. The unique human life exists inside another unique human life. Try again.

  342. Reduced to mimicry. You truly have nothing.

    Thanks for admitting it’s a human life and proving once again you have zero credibility.

  343. You keep repeating yourself over and over. I don’t care about you or your opinion. Have a nice night. This is the last response I’m giving your perverted needs.

  344. I bet you don’t even perceive the profound irony of your comment do you?

  345. Some people have written lengthy articles, if not books, about it. My little time spent over the last couple days is peanuts. I happen to think the movement does more harm than good. In addition to what I’ve already pointed out about their chants calling for the killing of cops and their disruption of two pride events in Toronto, there is also the fact that they are actively working to defund police departments. That would be the worst thing that could happen to Black communities. Heh… any luck finding evidence for your charge that “In fact, you’ve spent quite a bit of time yelling at a woman for her views on homosexuality as if YOUR opinion should have any bearing on her life.” Why don’t you work on that for a while. It must kill you that I provided the evidence you asked for, but you can’t do the same.

  346. Again don’t care what you think god says. Never have to.

    You don’t want to start an argument that your morals and ethics come from religion. Every time someone makes such an argument they come off as raging sociopaths who only act because they are on a divine leash. It makes religious belief look foolish.

    You won’t want to go there. Plus given your prior posts, with the indifference to women and children, I have no problem thinking you are a raging sociopath.

    Your tirade against drug use and porn demonstrate an overall lack of respect for the lessons boundaries of others. As being self righteous doesn’t entitle you to a say in the lives of others. You don’t like how others live their lives, tough luck. It’s not your call.

  347. Good luck getting it to live outside the womb. Until that happens, don’t care. Don’t have to. It’s her decision to keep it in existence and never yours.

  348. Oh no!!!! (Spuddie crumples into dust like Dracula in sunlight)

  349. Nope. Being self righteous doesn’t give you any kind of rights over others.

  350. Nothing self righteous about protecting humanity’s most vulnerable.

  351. As one can see from many comments below, nothing bring out the rage in Evangelicals more than someone treating gay people decently and fairly. Evangelicals have completely invested themselves and their religious faith in treating gay people as legal and social outcasts. But, apply the Golden Rule to gay people? Oh hell no – that is a bridge too far for Evangelicals!

    – If you can’t be anti-gay then what’s the point of being a Christian?

  352. The comments section of this article reads like a ginormous pile of Christians falling all over themselves to be right… being really, really nasty and ugly to each other, and trying to be right. I can’t think of anything farther from being Christ like than this. Jesus asked questions, he didn’t run after people with a verbal machete. Love should win, but instead it is being absolutely obliterated by the very people who are claiming to be followers of Christ. What would Jesus do? I think he would pull up a chair and sit with Jen and say tell me more sweet child whom I love. We are all somewhere on our journey – no one has arrived. Tonight my heart is heavy and I am praying for anyone who finds themselves scrolling through this slaughter house. May you know that this is not the heart of Christ – please don’t give up on Christianity and walk away. And surveying the battle ground, I am praying for all of those who have engaged in the battle. Be blessed. Be Love. And pray. There is more power in prayer than anything you think you are accomplishing with your fingers and the alphabet. May our knees ache from bending them in prayer and growing ever close to our Father!

  353. Why does that matter? The point is that it’s a legitimate thing that can happen to a woman after she gives birth. And yes, women can experience depression after an abortion, too. But not everyone does. It varies from person to person. Pro-lifers like to push the women becoming depressed after abortion narrative because it suits their agenda but they ignore that tons of other things in life, including child birth , cause depression, as well.

  354. I don’t even know what to say.
    I pray with gay people and see God set them free. I recently shared stories with a girl God set free and she kissed her first boyfriend. It was priceless. I love gays even if they are struggling but this is scary to read.
    God told me He has forgiven Donald Trump and He has led me to vote for Him. He is a new Christian. He is not racist. The media twists everything He says and does. I have seen Hillary call different races some aweful words but we don’t see that on the news. That speaks volumes concerning the media. All the prophetic voices, which are God’s heart are saying to vote for Trump. That says something. I wonder why Jenn didn’t get the memo.

  355. I am perfectly willing to recognize that racism remains a problem in this country and more than willing to discuss it. But what is your reason for saying “So it was vile nonsense to belittle BLM”? One can oppose racism without agreeing with every group that claims to do the same. Is that too complicated for you to understand?

  356. I tried to post this a couple hours ago, but the powers-that-be wouldn’t post it because they thought it was possible spam. The only reason I can imagine for that is that I included a phone number. So I am posting it again without the number and I hope it goes through:

    You can’t answer any of my questions, can you? I don’t have to prove to you that I don’t hate Black people. You’re the one who accused me of that. The burden of proof is on you. Have you ever considered the possibility that I’m fixated on trying to improve the situation for Black people and happen to believe that BLM is hurting the cause (and I’m not the only one who thinks that)? That’s just as plausible as your scenario. Or maybe I have OCD. But that would mean you would actually have to consider me as a real person and not as the monster you’ve created in your head. If you have the courage to do so, call Brenda Crisp who runs the Kindercottage in East St. Louis, providing services for some of the most underprivileged children in the U.S., and ask her if I hate Black people. You can just google East St. Louis Kindercottage and her name and phone number will pop up. Let me know what she says. You can also google FEDICE, an organization that helps the poor in Ecuador. They are not Black people but they are people of color Their e-mail address in on their website. Write a note to Blanca Puma Martinez and ask her about my work there. She might even tell you about the medical clinic I built in a small rural village high in the Andes.

  357. Shawnie, you and I will never agree on this matter. Look, I’ve dealt with it all of my life. I knew when I was 5 or 6 years old that I was attracted to guys (nothing sexual–just innocent and age appropriate crushes).

    I knew that I couldn’t tell anybody about it because I’d heard the term “queer” and “sissy” used so negatively against other boys.

    I began praying to God–begging Him and pleading with Him to change me–by the time I was 7 or 8. That continued until I reached early adulthood–about 15 years. I prayed daily–multiple times a day. When I started noticing other boys dating girls, I also tried to date girls. I tried to force myself to enjoy kissing them and caressing them. When I was in my early 20’s I went into therapy–bound and determined to rid myself of homosexuality once and for all.

    I was miserable. I couldn’t picture a future with anyone. I was constantly depressed and anxious. I began to experience panic attacks to a point that I could barely function. I had trouble working and going to graduate school. My grades were just good enough to keep me in school. I couldn’t excel in anything.

    One fall evening I was standing in my parent’s garden helping my dad burn off the previous season’s dead vines and stalks. I was raking up piles of dead vegetation, repeating my litany to God–begging Him to “heal” my heart; to change me; to make me “normal”.

    I couldn’t understand why it was that God, the Supreme Being, wouldn’t do what I asked; especially since it was supposed to a sin. Why wouldn’t He change me? After all, through Him all things are possible.

    It was at that moment that I realized that I had been begging and pleading with God for years for what “I” wanted. I’d never gone to Him and asked what He wanted of me.

    So, there in the garden, I bowed my head once again and prayed. I said, “God, whatever Your will; let it be done.”

    After so many years of self-hatred, fear, anxiety, panic, discomfort and so on, the impact was overwhelming and immediate! I felt a sense of love and peace that I’d never felt before. I had no doubt whatsoever that I was in God’s almighty presence. It was at that moment that I literally heard the voice of God inside my head. He said just as plain as day, “Tom, I made you as I made you. I want you to be happy.”

    I’ve never looked back since that day almost 30 years ago.

    You may go to Scripture to find “gotcha verses” when it comes to homosexuality, but from where I stand, I got the final word on the matter straight from God’s lips.

    It’s as though you and others who believe as you do want to make this into a game of some sort. You want black and white proof positive that homosexuality is a sin. You want to go to ancient texts that deal with a subject that contemporary scientists, doctors, and psychologists have dealt with. There have been so many scientific discoveries that are at odds with those who lived in “Biblical” times (I only use quotations because Biblical times represents such a large period in time). But you don’t argue these changes in scientific beliefs. You don’t hold to the firm belief that according to the church, at one time the Earth was considered the center of the universe–even though we know better now. So why do you so firmly believe that people writing about the subject of homosexuality eons ago fully understand our scientific knowledge about the matter now?

  358. I just don’t get it. How does one stand on principles and not have a problem recommending a vote for Hillary Clinton? How does one stand against racism but give credence to BLM which is incredibly violent and racist among other things? I could go on but I’m just going to be done…so disappointing.

  359. Emotionally lashing people with “most people get them for medical purposes and you’re making those people feel horrible for an impossible decision they had to make,” trying to make pro-lifers feel guilty and like idiots for not knowing “what an ‘exceptional case’ looks like,” is unfair. (and for the record, I don’t know any pro-lifers that are against the medical need, just using abortion as a birth control)

    According to an article in a research journal run by The Guttmacher Institute: “Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous.”

    Therefore, MOST women in these “exceptional cases” are STILL getting abortions for convenience and NOT for medical reasons.

  360. Planned Parenthood receives government funding…that’s our tax money, friend. Not interested in fighting…but honesty…you can’t possibly have missed the “defund PP” debates, right?

  361. I will make sure to never ever buy anything from this women, ever.

  362. (This message is specifically for Taylor)

    Okay Taylor, don’t go all silent on the board now. You got YOURSELF into this situation, so go ahead and play the endgame.

    You now have some actual live urban people and genuine charitable organizations that you can personally contact, in order to Prove once and for all that Phil Kershner hates Black Americans (and also hates rural low-income Central American medical patients, for that matter.)

    So dial ’em all up, e-mail all their addresses, and report ALL their juicy racial gossip back to us today, please. Give us your proof.

    Dish out the true dish, yes indeed. Inquiring minds want to KNOW !!

  363. ALL LIVES MATTER…PERIOD! I am so tired of black people playing the victim in every situation that comes along…stop walking around with a chip on their shoulders and move on! We all have struggles, we are not all going to be loved and accepted by everybody…get over it already for crap sake!

  364. Has anyone else noticed the recent increase in both the volume and intensity of hateful bile being posted here by the pointedly self-proclaimed “pious” against people they don’t even know? In all the time I’ve spent reading and posting to articles at the RNS website — usually a venue of mostly civil discourse — I’ve never before seen so much vicious vomiting of vile venom by so many wolves in sheep’s clothing.

    I hope these people wise up soon about how they’re presenting themselves, and how their contemptibly contemptuous tirades could possibly bring anyone — anyone at all — closer to their God.

  365. How can people so blatantly ignore what the Bible unequivocally calls sin and still consider themselves Christian ?

  366. I get your point, but in my dialogues with the person to which you refer, he has been known to quote passages of scripture to either prove a point in his arguments against Christianity, or to prove some “inconsistency” on the part of those who defend the faith. His capacity for interpreting scripture in context is admittedly sketchy at best. Nor do I think he’s concerned with the biblical soundness of gay relationships. And as you point out, he does not believe in God anyway. But doesn’t debate entail opposing points of view in conflict? Granted, ideally in debate, one has hopes of moving the needle, in this case not so much. Thus the absent common premises, and such is the reason I referenced the irresistible force vs. the immovable object. Of course certain assertions cannot go unchallenged, but at some point in a thread spinning one’s wheels is wearying and ultimately self defeating. Hence my “sage” remark. Still, I have occasionally found a nexus of agreement with our subject, but not, naturally, on the question of God. But, as always, I appreciate your insight.

  367. I find it interesting that you do not hold police to a higher standard than criminals.

  368. Please learn to spell before writing to me again.

  369. Thank you, Janice Baldes! Our beliefs may differ, but our hearts and concerns about how people treat each other are in exactly the same place. Based upon my late parent’s devout beliefs and how they practiced living their faith, I have always associated Christianity with the virtues of respect, compassion, mercy, and humility. I’ve seen so little of these moral values recently expressed here by beam-eyed bullies who wield their words as weapons and pen their preachings with poison. Your post is a welcome relief and much-needed reminder of what’s beautiful about your religion.

  370. Do you think it’s okay for strangers to hold you to their freely chosen spiritual/ existential beliefs, moral requirements, and behavioral restrictions? Would you like me to tell you why you should renounce your most deeply held beliefs and switch to the ones I’ve rightfully chosen for myself? Wouldn’t it be great if all Christians got together and hashed out their differences in-house before taking it out on strangers?

  371. What is wrong with you??? Assuming the worst of people and their thoughts about their unborn child. You live in a dark world lady!! Those parents that have had to make the heartbreaking decision to end the pregnancy that late… do it out of love. They are sensitive to the fact that this child will suffer in its short life. A heart or a brain or a lung outside the body isn’t just a minor setback. The pain of surgeries, the heartbreak of watching this poor infant suffer and the likelihood that they won’t survive despite the suffering… are the factors that weigh
    on that mom who has invested so many months to carrying that child. For you to assume that they are only doing it because they think so ill of that baby.. makes you a despicable judgemental person. You have no idea… so quit posting about it like you do!!

  372. “You don’t hold to the firm belief that according to the church, at one time the Earth was considered the center of the universe–even though we know better now.” Geocentrism is not taught by scripture, Tom. The “church” taught this because this had been “scientific consensus” in the western world ever since Ptolemy (who certainly was no Christian) and could not be disproven until telescopes could be developed that were sufficiently powerful to detect the apparently missing stellar parallax.

    All that science suggests wrt homosexuality (I do not say “proves” because it has actually proven very little on the subject) is that some people are born wanting very much to do something the bible prohibits. But that is the case for ALL of us in one way or another. Most kids are born wanting to hit another kid and take his stuff, and have to be taught otherwise. Many men are born with a tendency toward sexual variety that makes it difficult to be satisfied with one woman. My mother was born with a tendency toward alcoholism that plagued her all her life. I struggle with elitism and being easily irritated and impatient. If we followed the law to the letter it would condemn every last one of us to death, for “the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” Gen. 8:21. We struggle with this fleshly burden, we bear with it, we bear with each other, we fail (a lot or a little) and then we get up and try again. The one thing we don’t do is claim that we simply have no sin (aka “affirming” ourselves and others in sin) for then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1John 1:18).

    I guess it really boils down to, what do we do with Jesus? Do we believe He is who He said He was, the great “I AM” that gave the Torah to Moses? The Word made flesh who dwelled among us? The Son of God who answered almost every question posed to Him by saying “It is written…” or “Haven’t you read the scriptures?” If we answer yes then that takes us in one direction. If no, then another. Much of the difficulty in the church over this issue and others is due to the failure to unanimously commit ourselves to this ultimate foundational premise. It’s easy to see why Jesus told Peter that He would build His church upon this rock — the statement of faith in His identity that Peter had just made (not Peter himself — sorry, Pope Francis). The gates of hell will certainly never overcome a church so committed, as it will a dithering church with its eyes on everything except Christ.

  373. Again, they receive federal funding to subsidize breast cancer and STD screenings and treatments. Their funds absolutely are not used for abortions. That’s why the “defund planned parenthood” debates are so disgusting. You guys want to take away free breast cancer screenings from
    People who can’t afford health care.

  374. I’m so tired of white people thinking their opinions matter.


    First of all, only 3% of what PP does is abortion services. The majority are STD and normal gynecological services. Second of all, the Title X funding it receives CANNOT be spent on abortion and the Medicaid it receives also CANNOT be spent on abortion because of the Hyde Ammendment.

    Not a single tax dollar funds an abortion.

    Keep paying your taxes. Don’t defund Planned Parenthood because women need free breast cancer and cervical cancer screenings to save lives. And enjoy living with the knowledge that, no, not a single dollar of your taxes pays for an abortion.

  376. There’s much to agree with her about. On the other hand, she fails to recognize that Clinton appeals to the basest part of her followers too and I’ve absolutely no doubt that she has no more interest in America’s well being than Trump. She’s every bit the swine he is.
    As for being in favor of “any two adults choosing who to love” I’d love to hear her support extended and defended as lovingly and forcefully for consanguinists.

  377. Why would you need consent from that’s not even an agent yet?

  378. And all of those rights are alienable in the context of a guardian.

  379. Wow. Just wow. Maybe we white folks should have to be transported back 150+ years and walk in their “shoeless” shoes before telling them how tired WE are of hearing their pain. Only then, we wouldn’t dare to make such a commentary. Compassion = “YOUR pain in MY heart.”

  380. I’ll take it on the chin here if others believe I am the one with the sarcasm issue. Really, I will. Maybe I’m missing the log in my own eye, here – for real. So, if others think I have an issue with entitlement/self-righteousness, then please let me know right now, and I’ll take it.

  381. “Die piggies die” was really addressing Jen Hatmaker’s concerns about BLM. Riiiight

  382. I trust by now that you’ve seen the citation I posted (and why I used it). The figure has been in the press quite a bit. I don’t know how you’ve missed it. In any event, you could have found it easily for yourself if you doubted it.

  383. Oh, but I do. Any cop found to have unjustly shot someone should be locked up. I’ve never said otherwise. It simply never came up in any of the posts sent my way (until you asked about it) and it wasn’t relevant to anything I had to say.

  384. It is relevant and I explained why in another post. If you’re too lazy to read it, that’s your problem. I’m not going to repeat myself here.

  385. You already admitted it was essentially pulled out of your posterior and was for effect. Not the one you claimed it was. Whatever.

  386. floydlee, I would like to meet you someday! Thanks for your brilliant support. If you would be interested to touch bases sometime, I’d love to hear from you and hear your story. We need more dialogue in this country between Blacks and Whites Here is my e-mail address. I have to give it to you in cryptic form or it might be rejected as spam. To the left of the “at” symbol you would type phkershner. To the right of the “at” symbol you would type yahoo and then a period and then com. If you would rather not, I understand.

  387. Be careful. Those first two sentences sound a bit sarcastic.

  388. This is for Taylor:

    And if that’s not enough in the way of resources for you, google New Jerusalem Missionary Baptist Church in Ferguson, Missouri, call the number listed and ask to speak with Pastor Alonzo Adams. He is the Black pastor of a Black congregation. Ask him if I hate Black people. And speaking of Ferguson, following the violence there that hurt several businesses, I organized three Ferguson “buying blitzes” from my little rural town 45 miles away from Ferguson to encourage people to join me in going there to shop and try to help out the struggling businesses.

  389. You are one of the angriest people I’ve ever come across on line, demanding evidence for how people are responding to your incredibly over the top, racist garbage. Gross. Nice witness, Christian (not that I believe for a second you have any interest in drawing unbelievers to Christ).

  390. He’s not well and you are being incredibly civil in the face of what he’s offering. thank you.

  391. Re: ” being at a church service and finding a voters guide in her bulletin. The pamphlet did not strike her as odd or off-putting, despite encouraging congregants to “vote straight-ticket Republican.”

    That used to be illegal. Should still be. Should be enough to get a ‘church’ to lose its charitable status.

  392. There is nothing racist about questioning the work of BLM. And if someone charges me with saying things I didn’t say, I think I’m within my rights to ask for evidence. I hope you’ve noticed that Taylor hasn’t been able to supply it. I did supply him with the evidence he asked for on the 4% statistic. I asked you to show me where I have shown contempt that is creepy. Is asking for evidence ‘creepy.”? Is criticizing BLM “creepy.”? I don’t think so. Perhaps you want to read my most recent posts to Taylor and contact some of those people yourself. But then you probably don’t want to do that. It might destroy this little world you’ve created in which I’m the monster racist. You might find reality too painful to endure.

  393. always love to see the christians chiming in with sarcasm and hate.

  394. Oh I see, now you’re trying to pivot to an “organization”. LOLOLOLOL

  395. Not at all. I’m including myself in the white folks in my sentence, thus the “we.” So, is that self-directed sarcasm, some how?

  396. Bullshit, of course you’re holding the black community responsible. I’m going to hold you responsible for the massive majority of pedophiles who are white, male and christian.

  397. Re: “I find him absolutely, positively, thoroughly unfit for the presidency. He does not understand politics, he does not understand policy, he does not understand the world, he does not understand how our government works.”

    ALL so very true. And, the saddest thing is … he does not care to LEARN about any of these things, He is proudly – and sadly – what used to be called a “know-nothing” – which these days, seems to apply to most of the Republican party.

    Re:” I don’t believe that he has America’s best interests at heart.

    Clearly, going by ALL the myriad evidence that he has put forth daily for a year and a half now, he has ONLY his own interests at heart.

    Re: “He lacks the diplomacy that is required of a United States president.

    You can say that again. And yet, oddly, he has hornswoggled evangelicals into not caring about any of that.

  398. Re: “As a believer, I’m devastated at how successful he has been in pandering to our lowest, basest selves. The selves that are willing to be openly racist. The selves that are afraid of anybody that does not fit our demographic. The selves that close our arms and our hearts to victims and vulnerable people. He has exposed the darkest corners of our human hearts and then given them free rein to live out in the open. That scares me.”

    As it should scare ANY follower of the Christ.

  399. Why are we even listening to this blather from someone who’s 15 minutes of fame has come and gone? She has nothing fresh to say. We’ve heard her liberal talking points ad nauseum from other fresh converts.

    Why doesn’t ALL lives matter? Some recent research shows that in confrontations with the police blacks are less likely than whites to get shot. More minority candidates are training to join police forces all around the country, and relations between the police and the public are improving, but those too invested in the issue won’t see or admit that. They need to stay radicalized about something that brings in money, otherwise they would have to go get a job and earn an honest living!.

  400. You can’t seem to have a conversation that you aren’t the center of. Grasp the concept that your belief about gay marriage is a MACRO issue that is lumped together with everything else if you can somehow move the conversation from something that has nothing to do with you and your feelings.

  401. “if you’re incapable of finding it …” See, that’s what I mean, Phil. She’s not “incapable,” even if she doesn’t find it. Words, tone.

  402. I respectfully ask, does Jen get to define what is holy? I think God has already done that. “But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler — not even to eat with such a one.” For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[a] whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Strong words? Yes. Extremely. Hard to swallow? Yes, definitely. I do not like them, but I didn’t say them. If anyone claims to be in Christ, he is a new creation and the old has passed. For those practicing homosexuality who do not claim to be Christians, this does not apply. But for those professing new life in Christ, it absolutely applies.

  403. Bryan, grasp that not everything is about you you you you you. Stop demanding that people treat you respectfully when you advocate abuse and injustice.

  404. Re: “If an LGBT friend of yours got married, would you attend that wedding?

    I would attend that wedding with gladness, and I would drink champagne. I want the very best for my gay friends. I want love and happiness and faithfulness and commitment and community. Yes. That’s an easy answer.”

    It is also a Christian answer. It’s been missing in too much of ‘Christian America” … since about 2004, sadly.

  405. Well I’m a Christian and I absolutely agree with him and so do the millions of Christians who along with me, affirmed gay marriage.

  406. Rational folks do not view 2 people who love one another so much that they’re willing to commit to that other person in marriage as anything NEAR the equivalent of “sexual immorality”.

    Besides, those were Paul’s words, not Christ’s. Paul had quite a few ‘problems’ of his own.

  407. Re: “She has nothing fresh to say.”

    I disagree. Her attitude is VERY refreshing – it’s been missing in the American Christian dialogue since about 2004.

  408. Wrong. There is literally not one person from Exodus who as testified to being changed.

  409. Yes, actually it was. That and the interruption of two Pride events in Toronto and the calling for defunding police departments (one of the worst things that could happen to Black communities) all suggest to me that her support for BLM without reservation is misguided.

  410. Re: ” I’ve absolutely no doubt that she has no more interest in America’s well being than Trump.”

    Then you’ve swallowed Trump’s lies about her wholesale.

    Re: “She’s every bit the swine he is.”

    What an ugly, un-/anti-Christian sentiment.

    Re: “consanguinists”

    Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin and that marriage was legal and viewed AS legal in ALL States.

    What a wretched thing to try to make SSM an equivalency to incest. Just throw in the ‘ick factor’ and ‘think’ you’ve made a valid point. You haven’t.

  411. It’s not a justification for anything, it’s a fact. there’s no organization that’s protesting divorce, there’s no Christian organization asking for money to get divorce outlawed – and it’s a direct violation of Scripture! So your suggestions of people trying to change it are ridiculous.

    You have absolutely no data that gay marriage is a mess, since it’s inception there’s been less than 2% that’s resulted in divorce. So just stop it, stop spreading malicious rumors about the GLBt community. Just leave them alone, they want absolutely nothing to do with Christians you’ve made them terrified of us.

    Look inward. Divorce shatters families and destroys children at a MUCH higher rate and yet all of the money, energy and time Christians like you are investing in is to stop gay marriage which is actually rooted in a desire for two people to be monogamous. Christians like you want to look at the fractional percentage of culture and obsess on how that is a “threat to traditional marriage” instead of a DIRECT “God hates divorce” scripture and the mandate that remarriage is adultery. CHRISTIANS kill traditional marriage when they divorce so stop blaming everyone else for how families are shattered. Take some responsibility for God’s sake!

  412. Then wipe her dust off your sandals and go your way in peace.

  413. If it WERE “unequivocal”, this debate would not be raging across all of Christendom.

    Many faiths (Christian and otherwise) do not view SSM as “sin”.

  414. We’ve all heard it before, on all sides. Standard gay activist talking point.

    The Bible clearly opposes Hatmaker’s mistaken position. It’s important to talk about what the Bible says.

  415. Why should/would gay people want to be “set free” from loving their spouse??? That does not make sense.

    What an odd way of showing your … ‘love’.

    Re: “He (Trump) is not racist.”

    Nothing could be farther from the truth. He invented/led/spearheaded the utterly racist ‘birther’ movement. He was found guilty … TWICE! … of not renting to “colored” tenants. He took “colored” croupiers off the floors of his casino to pander to his racist customers. He lies constantly about “the blacks” on his campaign trail.

    I never knew Christians could be so gullible. His disrespect for religion is famous. I’m surprised you ignore it.

  416. God’s word is silent on things like same-sex marriage. It also tells us life does not happen until the first breath.

    Selective much???

  417. You are free to believe that, Frank. But there are too many LGBTQ2S folk living holy lives to believe you.

  418. Odd, then, that He was silent on the topic. Take His hint and do likewise.

  419. If the Bible WERE “clear” on God’s LGBTQ2S children and their lives and relationships, this debate would not be happening throughout the entire Christian world.

    The Bible only “says” things about homosexual lust, homosexual rape, and homosexual temple prostitution.

    NONE of which is the topic here.

  420. Jen! As a Liberal Pro Life Christian (The Christian Left exists…we are just smaller!) I COMMEND you for this article! You are so incredibly brave! I think you hit the nail on the head. Being pro choice does not mean being “pro abortion”….For me, it is a matter of woman’s safety. They will either occur in a back alley or in a clinic…and while I wish I didn’t have to be an option….that is not up for me to decide. Also, there ARE SO MANY BABIES waiting to be adopted. And loved. Unless we are able to provide services/love that baby it’s entire life we can’t say we are pro-life! You are right, this has been a long election season. You will be criticized for this, but in person you will be able to have good critical discussion (i’m not sure how much of that will be able to happen on the comments section?)

    Also….you had pamphlets at your church on how to vote?! OH NO. not good at all. Thank you for your bravery to use your voice.
    And for realizing that when Jesus talked about loving “the least of these” he was also talking about social justice. And the Evan McMullin shoutout. And for recognizing how hard it is in your mind to be a supporter for gay marriage. and how long it is taken you get to that place.

    Peace be with you!
    You are great!
    Now go log off the computer and go on a fun adventure!

  421. It is not possible (nor advisable) to “believe” everything the Bible says.

    Otherwise, we’d have a heck of a lot of dead disobedient children and non-virgin brides.

    Not all Christians believe homosexuality (as we understand it today) is a “sin”. “Sin” is what your faith teaches is “sin”. Calling other people (strangers to you) they are in “sin” denies them THEIR right to believe as they see fit.

    Why do you hate other people’s 1st Amendment rights?

  422. Phil do you have a job? You should log off the computer and stop posting negative things! Go have some fun! The world is better than you make it out to be 🙂

  423. Rational people don’t view 2 folks committing to one another in marriage as “sexual immorality”. Quite the opposite, in fact.

  424. Re: “Our culture does not want to submit to biblical teaching.”

    I sure hope it wouldn’t. Otherwise, we’d have to put disobedient children and non-virgin brides to death, right alongside “the gays”. And, the Red Lobster restaurant chain would be extinct.

    Tell me, how can (and why should) one “repent” of loving someone? Isn’t that the essence of Christ’s commandments?

  425. Re: “”your outrageous pride” doesn’t seem to want to listen to anyone but yourself.”

    Um, go fetch a mirror, Ann.

  426. Bob, Hipster Christianity is actually quite Conservative. How do I know this? I spent a year at a Christian college with a bunch of hipsters who I thought would be open minded. It wasn’t until I left and encountered non-hipsters did I once again encounter liberal/progressive theology. As my Grandma says…”we’re all trying to go to heaven, we just do it differently.” Peace to you!

  427. Just your version of holiness? Do you follow every passage of the Bible exactly also? Do you have Gay Christian friends? One of the best pastors I ever had was a gay man. I challenge you to get out of your comfort zone. You may be surprised at what you will find! Often we are scared of what we do not know! Grace and peace to you!

  428. Neither candidate is perfect. I encourage you to look at Evan McMullin! Do you want a perfect president? That doesn’t exist…well it does because that is Jesus…but I also encourage you to look at the faith of Clinton and Kaine. You might be quite surprised. It will challenge you. But I am positive that the democrat ticket is more Christ like this time around 🙂

  429. Wow. Um. No, this is what YOU believe to be your truth. And that’s all well and good. But don’t impose your morals and your beliefs on the rest of us, please.

  430. for some reason I thought it would be fun to go to college in Mississippi ( a southern Baptist college at that!) I am from Oregon and am a liberal Christian….YOU WOULD BE SO SURPRISED at how often churches encourage you to vote conservative (although maybe you wouldn’t be surprised!) I only lasted 2 years there….I always tell ppl….I didn’t study abroad but I went to school in Mississippi and that is kind of the same thing!

  431. A conservative Christian college is now becoming a thing of the past. Must have been in the south? There’s only one way to Heaven.

  432. You forget what led her to use that word. I believe it was someone suggesting that if a baby in utero is known to have half a heart it is sufficient reason to abort. Her choice of words may not have been the best, perhaps she should have said something like “my child did not turn out abnormal,” but her intent was clear. She wanted it to be known that this unborn child with half a heart turned out well. Perhaps she has heard others describe the disabled as monsters and wanted to make it clear that her child was not. The fact that no one on this site has used the word “monster” doesn’t mean she hasn’t heard it elsewhere. Perhaps you should have asked her before jumping on her. You have absolutely no grounds for saying that “she must be operating under some sort of mental pattern that innately identifies the disabled as monsters…” She could just as easily be operating under a mental pattern that has heard that word too often. I hope this isn’t too difficult for you to understand (to borrow from your wording).

  433. Satire, Merdedith, satire. But for offending you, I apologize.

  434. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least. (I was raised Pentecostal.)

    Yes indeed, Miss’ippi IS a ‘whole ‘nother country’.

  435. The church believed in a geocentric model based on verses such as this:
    Psalms 19:4-6
    Yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

    To deny the geocentric model was to imply that Scripture and the tenets of Christianity were erroneous. The church didn’t look too kindly on those who suggested otherwise.

    Say what you want, Shawnee. I know what I know. I knew when I was in God’s presence. I know what He said to me.

    Race back to Scripture if you’d like, but with regards to my orientation; God and I are good with where we stand.

  436. Meridith, we all have pain, life is not a bed of roses. Our pain can be our gain if we choose to learn and grow from it, but instead some people choose to dwell on it for their entire life and blame society for all their problems…they have a “victim mentality” and feel everyone owes them a free ride. That’s what most americans are sick of even many from the black community. We don’t do these people any favors by supporting their whining and how they use the “RACE” card for every little thing. It’s time they grow up and take responsibility for their own lives, and stop looking at every challenge in their life as a negative! Success isn’t measured by what you achieved, it’s measured by the obstacles you overcome! Having success in life is one who can build a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at them! It’s time they change their ATTITUDE! A bad attitude is like a flat tire…if you don’t change it, you’ll never go anywhere! Attitude is everything, LIFE is 10% of What Happens to YOU, and 90% of How YOU React to it! ~ Charles R Swindoll Rant Over!

  437. That is a wide stretch from there. Also doesn’t address Mrs. Hatmakers concern that the only thing keeping her son from being a potential victim right now are white affluent parents.

  438. thank u for sharing. this article/interview is very interesting. she has a pro-life stance BUT she defines & puts it in detail as pro-life ethics. it seems to me that i’m hearing some political correctness BUT i’m not judging her since i’ve never been in her situation (i can only imagine). I would still not be confused about convenience or quality of life for the family of an unborn baby just because certain programs (ex. PP or Obamacare) claims that they can provide quality life for the family of the unborn. a true pro-lifer should know that it’s always been about life at conception until natural death. she’s also concerned about race which i can relate to but does the (BLM) represents Asians? it’s 2016 and we really need to look at statistics and not what has been making it on top news. as for me, i would still stand for all human life matters. #lovelife #livelife #onelife

  439. I don’t find it a wide stretch at all. I guess we have to agree to disagree. And I wasn’t trying to address her concern about her son or any other concerns she had. I happened to agree with much of what she said. I don’t think I was obligated (any more than anyone else on this site) to reference everything she said.

  440. Racism is evil, but so is every other sin that we commit in our thoughtlife every day. Racism is connected to a deeper issue; pride, the belief we are superior to others. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I was dead in my sins. I did not want to obey God, and I constantly justified my beliefs and lifestyle. I’m thankful to God that he changed me. He gave me new life and about 2000 years ago He died for me on a Roman cross so that my wages could be paid. It’s one thing to know God died for our sins, but faith requires us to actually trust Him. Have you been to Jesus for His cleansing power? Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb? Are you fully trusting in His grace each hour?
    “Lay aside the garments that are stained with sin,
    And be washed in the blood of the Lamb;
    There’s a fountain flowing for the soul unclean.
    O be washed in the blood of the Lamb.”

  441. Amy, what is wrong with posting criticisms of the BLM movement? Are they above criticism? What I find interesting is that I’ve been told I hate Black people, I hate gay people and I hate women, none of which is true. That’s far more negative than anything I’ve posted. I’ve never claimed that anyone hates anyone. And yet you take the time to address me. Have you done the same with those who charge me with hatred they can’t provide evidence for or who claim I made certain statements I never made? 🙂 Thanks for writing. And, yes, I do have a job. But it does allow me a lot of free time. And I do think the world is a great place.

  442. I wrote that because I’m tired of being asked for evidence for stuff that is widely known. I think that if I said that Darwin was a 19th century scientist someone would ask me to verify that. Sorry if I offended anyone. But I do have a question for you. I have been charged on this site with hatred for women, gays and Blacks, none of which is true. I have been misquoted and when I asked for evidence that I had said what I was accused of saying, none was provided. The stuff said to me is much more hateful and offensive than any of my little satirical comments or anything else I have said. Yet I haven’t seen anywhere where you have taken those people to task. Why is that?

  443. Yes, you said “we,” but I don’t think you were including yourself in those who need to go back in time 150 years to understand the pain of Black people. After all, you also said “Only then, we wouldn’t dare to make such a commentary.” And yet it is quite clear, I think, that you don’t think of yourself as anyone who would ever make such a commentary.” Your “we” really comes across as meaning Liz and anyone who agrees with her. That’s my take on what you wrote. I could be wrong.

  444. In my view, it is using other people without regards to their needs. Exactly like those who “abandon what is natural” (for nominally-heterosexual men, that would mean going on the ‘down low’ to seek their own sexual gratification from men instead of from those they are naturally attracted to) as Paul called it.

    It would also mean rape – because of the harm.

    Mutually consenting adults committing to one another in marriage is the farthest thing from both. That you would consider them “evil” is astounding to me.

  445. Telling people what they want to hear is not a virtue. As a Christian, I don’t point fingers as none are perfect accept for the One. I also don’t say that things have changed and my sins are now acceptable. As a former neuroscience/psychology professional, I would say basically the same. Life is confusing, so misinterpreting your feelings is common. This is especially true of those that were victims of abuse, which is often the case.

  446. Abuse and marriage are polar opposites.

    It is only your faith that has taught you that same-sex loving relationships culminating in marriage is a “sin”. You’re perfectly free to believe it, but everyone else is equally free to believe differently – and many do.

  447. I’d be very interested in hearing more about this supposed “lifestyle” you had. Was it a racist lifestyle???

  448. Biblically, life begins at the first breath. And, ensoulment a couple of weeks later.

    We celebrate birthdays, not ‘conceptiondays’.

    I’d love to hear your definition of “political correctness”.

  449. Re: “Abortion is murder.”

    That may be what your faith has taught you, but many others disagree. Aren’t they entitled to THEIR 1st Amendment rights to believe as they see fit? Or is that right reserved for those of your faith only now?

    Re: “marriage is between a man and woman”

    That may be what your faith has taught you, but many others disagree. Aren’t they entitled to THEIR 1st Amendment rights to believe as they see fit? Or is that right reserved for those of your faith only now?

  450. Serial adulterers, serial liars, serial overeaters, serial drug users… all feel their sins are intrinsic. We are actually called to point them to the way out. The power of God, which raised Jesus from the dead, is a power beyond us. That power is available to any who trust in Jesus’ works for the forgiveness their sins, in the life long battle of fighting against such fleshly urges which indeed feel intrinsic. We are to shine the light on the way out of sin.

  451. Of course you don’t.

    You are beholden to the phony narrative that BLM has no legitimate concerns with police conduct.

    “I wasn’t trying to address her concern about her son or any other concerns she had.”

    Well that was obvious.

  452. I once thought like that. Loving marginalized people and serving them many hours during the week are things that brought me out of that trap.

  453. She is no more a conservative than Hillary Clinton. If she would choose a corrupt woman over a few crude words, I question her discernment. And to accept sodomite marriage and thumb her nose at God is truly disgusting. I have never watched her and plan to ban her from my tv.

  454. Of course, we all have pain. But I don’t think that’s what BLM is about (all our collective pain). Can we, as white people, even begin to comprehend the kind of legacy we (in the south, now, as I’m a southern gal) set in place for black people? And how, out of that, there remains a broken system of poverty that isn’t perpetuated by their “whining” or “pulling the race card?” Is it any wonder many are angry and feel powerless? You and I can never, ever comprehend what it would be like to be born into a legacy like that, simply because we are white. An attitude adjustment doesn’t even begin to form a remedy, unless it’s our own.

  455. Sadly Jen’s view on gay marriage contradicts scripture. As Christians we love God first and follow his word. We do not celebrate Gay marriage and it is not holy. Gay marriage is a sin and separates a person from God. Only by Belief and obedience to Jesus might we be saved from the consequences of sin, hell. Turn away from sin. And turn to Jesus.

  456. It truly amazes me the people who cannot discern from a group that promotes the killing of police officers with the police officers themselves who are just trying to do their job and protect us all.

  457. I’m a single mom and I agree with Jen Hatmaker that Christians are not supportive of babies or mamas in my predicament. I’ve been a single mom for 15 years. I’ve specifically asked my Christian family for suggestions regarding where I can get parenting support, counseling, help with the logistics of being a single mom and all I’ve ever heard back are crickets. Perhaps you should try BEING a mom who didn’t abort a baby if you want an accurate perspective on what PRO-LIFE means. Pro-life means anti-abortion. That’s all. It has nothing to do with the rest of the baby’s life.

  458. You just lost the debate. I hope you never have to call the police for help. You are very misguided.

  459. Don’t forget that Jesus’ view on the Sabbath (no healing allowed) was something that, at that time and in that culture, was viewed as breaking the Law and a punishable act of disobedience. In the OT, what we would call God’s views on cutting hair and treatment of disobedient children and adulterous spouses contradicts the way we, today, view those verses and live them out. And who among us, if we were to lose our spouse, would be compelled by obedience to God to marry our husband’s brothers, as they did in Jesus’ day? Just some things go consider. “You have heard it said, but *I* way unto you…” (Jesus).

  460. Phil, you are trying to have an intelligent conversation with people who have drunk the liberal Kool-Aid. To them BLM is much more important than any police officer despite the fact BLM is a terrorist group that has caused the death of innocent police officers. Revenge killings you could call them. BLM provoked these people to murder. They have gotten the conversation clear off message.

  461. Then you have not grown wiser with age. Anarchy would reign. Is that what you want?

  462. Oh, yes, I am sure a police officer kills someone every day in your little liberal world.

  463. I am not beholden to any phony narrative that BLM has no legitimate concerns with police conduct. I have never said that the police always act properly. In fact, in one post I said (I’m paraphrasing here since I don’t have the exact quote in front of me) that police who kill without just cause should be thrown in the slammer. But I am entitled to have concerns about the BLM movement that I think outweigh any good it does. I have already listed those concerns more than once. I won’t repeat them here. But why are you beholden to this phony idea that I can’t address a person’s commentary unless I address everything in it. That’s like saying I can’t criticize a line in a politician’s speech unless I address the entire speech. That’s nonsense.

  464. Re: “You cannot be a Christian and support gay marriage.”

    Millions of people disagree with you on that. The subject of this interview does. As do I.

    One might not be allowed to be a member in your particular branch of Christianity, but that’s a whole ‘nother thing entirely.

    Scripture tells you to “surely” put gays to death. So, if you’re not out there killing gays, you’re just another run-of-the-mill selective fundamentalist/cafeteria Christian.

    A little discernment is in order (though I’m aware no everyone has that particular spiritual gift).

    There is no such thing AS “the gay lifestyle”. That’s just another lie your church seems to have taught you.

    You might indeed NOT “hate gay people”, but no one would ‘get’ that from your post. Bearing false witness about them is a strange way to show your ‘love’ for them.

    P.S. It was ‘christians’ that STARTED the culture wars.

    P.P.S. Paul was not the Christ. Christ said not one recorded word on the topic.

  465. Fair enough. But put yourself in Liz’s shoes and try to imagine her reading your post. Do you really think she took it to mean that you and she need to go back 150 years so that you and she won’t write such commentaries?

    I hope you saw the apology I sent you in another post and the question I sent you in yet another post recently. This has to come to an end sometime. I do appreciate the fact that you have always been civil. You have not thrown the hatred at me that some others have. I will give you the last word. Shalom,