Comments

  1. I didn’t realize the Catholic University of America had raked in millions of dollars of Koch money. Surely they knew when they pocketed that money that there would be strings attached – specifically, having the Catholic academy rigorously reinforce the message that Catholics must always vote Republican – because of issues surrounding “life and family,” of course. That in turn keeps the Koch brothers ever more flush with cash. They spend a few hundred million here and a few hundred million there and in return are guaranteed billions back. Nice work if you can get it.

    Koch money is dirty money. If CU is at all concerned about income inequality, they should be ashamed of themselves. The Kochs are the poster boys for income inequality, and they’re just getting richer and richer, just like the Rockefellers, the Carnegies, and the Vanderbilts. Welcome to the new gilded age! And CU supports this behavior why? They need money that badly? Something tells me Jesus would not approve.

  2. Who cares what Jesus would say?

    Jesus was a bit “touched”. After all he thought he spoke to Satan, thought he changed water into wine, thought he raised Lazarus from the dead etc. In today’s world, said Jesus would be declared legally insane.

    Or did P, M, M, L and J simply make him into a first century magic-man via their epistles and gospels of semi-fiction? Most contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the latter magic-man conclusion with J’s gospels being mostly fiction.

  3. You don’t get the concept of “myth,” do you? It’s a means of transmission of truth from one generation to the next in a manner that transcends time so that the message can be correctly conveyed to subsequent generations.

    You view things too clinically, too narrowly. You need to step back and take more of a literary, right-brain approach to things. Only then might you see the whole picture.

    For those of us who believe in him, Jesus’ teaching was remarkably consistent. As a man whom he healed put it, “he was not like the others – he spoke with authority.” Jesus himself said, “everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” That requires a certain leap of faith no syllogism will ever prove, so just get that out of your head now.

    Your left-brain suspicion regarding the miracles that have been attributed to Jesus are not the high points of his message or his ministry, merely the tabloid means by which his fame spread throughout the ancient world. “Did you hear?” suddenly becomes a game of Chinese Whispers, and the next thing you know Jesus is raising people from the dead and it gets recorded as eternal truth. Who knows what the real story is? The point is, it doesn’t matter. Jesus’ over-arching message about how we can all best live together on this tiny planet we call home is, to me, as pertinent as ever. Mock me if you wish. It matters not.

  4. It is always fun to read Mr. Silk’s take on matters.

    “Economic Justice for All” was hardly “an attack on the Reagan administration’s economic policies”, although some read it that way.

    Its moorings were with the individual who headed up the drafting, Rembert Weakland, who left the church in disgrace shortly thereafter, and its lack of footnotes to actual teaching documents gives some sense of its free-wheeling ad libitum style.

    Nor is “Considerations for an Ethical Discernment Regarding Some Aspects of the Present Economic-Financial System” an important updating, as its brevity and forty-nine footnotes attest. It is a short compendium of select issues in the existing teaching of the church.

    Nor is “virtue-based free enterprise” in any way incompatible with Catholic social teaching as we know it.

    A properly run Catholic institution of higher learning can do better than “Considerations for an Ethical Discernment Regarding Some Aspects of the Present Economic-Financial System” for a text.

    “Centesimus annus”, “Quadragesimo anno”, and “Rerum novarum”, taken together, form the basis of current Catholic teaching on economic systems.

    All three have been explicated by additional comments and observations for over a century.

    And all three are currently in use by Catholic institutions of higher learning.

  5. I think that when the Catholic Church became part of the “establishment” (I think that 60’s and 70’s term actually works well), many clergy and hierarchy lost their moral compass. Re CU — it’s long been in the forefront of the movement to return to the mythical 50s.

  6. It’s clear that you don’t care, and that’s fine. However, a university that calls itself Catholic University of America should care. After all, they profess a faith in the divinity of Christ.

  7. Yes, sadly, the concept of myth and allegory appears to be lost on many.

  8. A “good place to start would be master’s programs in business management”?

    A GOOD place to start would be in fifth grade. Y’all are telling us that it is virtually impossible for the principles contained in Oeconomicae et pecuniariae questiones to be explained clearly to 10-year-olds? OF COURSE IT ISN’T. If adults cannot correctly explain the pontifical view of economics to middle schoolers, it is only because the adults themselves 1) do not understand it, or 2) do not want to understand it. Boil it down, down, down for the bright eyes of kids or fuggedaboudit. Everything else is intentional deception.

  9. Nope – Jesus did what they say he did. The other contemporary NT experts after thorough analyses of all the scriptures go with the Jesus is the Savior of the World conclusion.

  10. Your NT experts’ jobs are not driven by thorough research but by their employers and myths for the gullible and brainwashed.

  11. Unfortunately, said Jesus stories were written by non-witnesses who were competing with the gods of Rome and Greece for monetary rewards and followship. And the credentials of said authors other than Paul are unknown.

  12. If it be allegory, said stories should be noted as such.

  13. The fact is that no one can prove if God exists or does not exist. A belief in the non-existence of God is just as much a belief as is one in the existence of God. People believe what they will. What is it that you think that you achieve by calling people names, or belittling them because they believe differently than you do?

  14. My beliefs are based on rigorous historic testing. Yours?

  15. It is impossible to have “rigorous historic testing” regarding the existence or non-existence of God.

  16. But you can test for stories about the founders of god believing groups. All founders fail historic review.

  17. But most of the “stories, as you call them, depend on faith, not on historic proof. There is no way to prove that no angel appeared to Mohammad, for example. In addition, much of what happened in ancient time was not recorded in writing, but passed on orally. And, regarding that which has been recorded, we don’t possess many original ancient manuscripts.

    You may believe that there is no God, because no one has ever proven the existence of that God. But neither has anyone disproven it.

    Why is it so important to you to convince others of the correctness of your belief?

  18. And the infamous angelic/satanic cons continue to wreak stupidity on the world:

    Joe Smith had his Moroni and Satan/Perdition/Lucifer. (As does M. Romney)

    “Latter-day Saints like M. Romney also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah.”

    Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God and of course Satan and his demons.

    Mohammed had his Gabriel (this “tin-kerbell” got around) and of course the
    jinn.

    Jesus and his family had/has Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented. (As do BO and his family)(As do Biden and Ryan and who knows maybe even Trump)

    The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other “no-namers” to
    do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

    Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these “pretty
    wingie/ugly/horn-blowing thingies” to the myth pile. We should do the same
    to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals.
    Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders
    and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

    Some added references to “tink-erbells”.

    newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm

    “The belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all
    antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., “Praep.
    Evang.”, xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the
    belief of the Babylonians and As-syrians, as their monuments testify, for a
    figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an As-Syrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar,
    father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: “He (Marduk) sent a tutelary
    deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my
    work to succeed.”

    Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of
    hallucinating:

    “TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from
    the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in
    Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel.”

    And tinker- bells go way, way back:

    “In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures.
    For example each person has a guardian angel called Fravashi. They patronize
    human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the
    Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don’t convey
    messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda (“Wise Lord”,
    God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra
    and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became
    personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants,
    water…).”

    “The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be
    sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hitti-tes and Canaanites had
    their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of
    angels are found in Near Eastern literature. ”

    “The ‘Magic Papyri’ contain many spells to secure just such
    help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the
    guardian angel. ”

    For added information see the review at:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

    “The prophet Ezekiel described an incredible vision of
    cherubim angels in Ezekiel chapter 10 of the Torah and the Bible, mentioning
    that the angels’ wings were “completely full of eyes” (verse 12) and “under
    their wings was what looked like human hands” (verse 21). The angels each usedtheir wings and something “like a wheel intersecting a wheel” (verse 10) that “sparkled like topaz” (verse 9) to move around.”

    For a rather extensive review of angel wings, see
    http://angels.about.com/od/AngelBasics/a/Angels-Wings-And-Things.htm

  19. Nothing that you have written contradicts the fact that belief in the existence of God or angels cannot be disproven. You repeat, with a need to include belittling commentary, the fact that all religions base their faith on a belief in supernatural beings. That is nothing new. Atheists state that they believe in the non-existence of God, because the existence of supernatural beings cannot be proven. As I stated before, the non-existence of supernatural beings cannot be proven either. So, we are left with a choice of belief.

    What I don’t understand is your need to belittle those who disagree with your belief system.

  20. Says who? You?
    Please provide evidence and sources for your statements.

  21. Actually, your statement about atheists is not entirely Accurate. Some atheists believe in the non existence of god. Other atheists have no belief in the existence of god, which isn’t the same thing at all, any more than they believe in the existence of pookahs and leprechauns. Others like myself don’t think the question has much meaning.

    But your point is otherwise well taken.

  22. Indeed believe in fortune tellers/prophets, tinker-bells and satans et al!! But it is the 21st century with cameras on every street corner, in every smart phone, in drones, on spy satellites and in the telescopes both earth bound and in space and guess what, none of these have detected any supernatural beings or places. Your gods and support troops sure have remained hidden since we got smart about recording events. And put Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny on your list of two characters who cannot be proven to exist or non-exist. Reality chooses the latter from common sense principles.

  23. It seems to me that what you are describing better fits the dictionary definition of agnostic. But, I think that people can all themselves whatever they consider appropriate.

    -:)

  24. Why, thank you for your permission! 🙂
    Of course cameras don’t capture supernatural beings — by definition, they constitute a “force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.”
    I’m still puzzled at your need to belittle others. That is often a technique of fundamentalists. Perhaps you consider yourself a fundamentalist atheist who needs to proselytize by demeaning.

  25. From a major Catholic University’s theology
    professor’s grad school white-board notes:

    “Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality
    of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.

    Jesus and Mary’s bodies are therefore not in
    Heaven.

    Most believe that it to mean that the personal
    spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while
    living on earth as an embodied person.

    Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a
    resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus’ crucified corpse),
    and Assumption (Mary’s corpse) into heaven did not take place.

    The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus’ earthly
    ministry and the beginning of the Church.

    Only Luke records it. (Luke mentions it in his gospel and Acts,
    i.e. a single attestation and therefore historically untenable). The Ascension
    ties Jesus’ mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus’ followers.

    The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary’s special
    role as “Christ bearer” (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that
    Mary, the body of Jesus’ Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found
    in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary’s assumption also
    shows God’s positive regard, not only for Christ’s male body, but also for
    female bodies.” ”

    “In three controversial Wednesday Audiences,
    Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell
    or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or
    human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human
    language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to
    describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in
    which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical
    categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas
    Aquinas said long before him.”

    http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

    The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a
    lot CYAP.

  26. So you do believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, forces beyond the understanding of the laws of nature. Interesting!!

    What we do know: (from the fields of astrophysics, biology,
    biochemistry, archeology, nuclear physics, geology and the history of religion)

    1. The Sun will burn out in 3-5 billion years so we have a
    time frame.

    2. Asteroids continue to circle us in the nearby asteroid
    belt.

    3. One wayward rock and it is all over in a blast of permanent
    winter.

    4. There are enough nuclear weapons to do the same job.

    5. Most contemporary NT exegetes do not believe in the
    Second Coming so apparently there is no concern about JC coming back on an
    asteroid or cloud of raptors/rapture.

    6. All stars will eventually extinguish as there is a limit to the amount of hydrogen in the universe. When this happens (100 trillion years?), the universe will go dark. If it does not collapse and recycle, the universe will end.

    7. Super, dormant volcanoes off the coast of Africa and under Yellowstone Park could explode cataclysmically at any time ending life on Earth.

    8. Many of us are part Neanderthal and/or Denisovan, added evidence of evolution.

    Bottom line:

    our apocalypse will start between now and 3-5 billion CE. The universe apocalypse, 100 trillion years?

    http://www.universetoday.com/18847/life-of-the-sun/

    solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Asteroids‎

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/30/us/wus-supervolcanoes-yellowstone

    Search for Paul, book by Professor JD Crossan

    RabbiPaul, book by Professor Bruce Chilton

    https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/

    http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2011/08/22/study-finds-star-formation-declining-throughout-the-universe/

    http://www.un.org/disarmament/WMD/Nuclear/

  27. Even now Catholic/Christian professors (e.g.Notre
    Dame, Catholic U, Georgetown) of theology are questioning the bodily
    resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

    To wit;

    From a major Catholic university’s theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

    “Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality
    of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.

    Jesus and Mary’s bodies are therefore not in
    Heaven.

    Most believe that it to mean that the personal
    spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while
    living on earth as an embodied person.

    Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a
    resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus’ crucified corpse),
    and Assumption (Mary’s corpse) into heaven did not take place.

    The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus’ earthly
    ministry and the beginning of the Church.

    Only Luke records it. (Luke mentions it in his gospel and Acts,
    i.e. a single attestation and therefore historically untenable). The Ascension
    ties Jesus’ mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus’ followers.

    The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary’s special
    role as “Christ bearer” (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that
    Mary, the body of Jesus’ Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found
    in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary’s assumption also
    shows God’s positive regard, not only for Christ’s male body, but also for
    female bodies.” ”

    “In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or
    human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human
    language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to
    describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in
    which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical
    categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas
    Aquinas said long before him.”

    http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

    The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a
    lot CYAP.

  28. What does all that have to do with the fact that the existence of God can neither be proven, nor disproven?

  29. A lot actually as all of this will happen or has happened due to natural laws and your god is no where to be seen or needed to explain any of it.

  30. Not looking for an argument. I think we’re on the same side.

    But no belief is not the same thing as saying I don’t know if god exists. That question stopped concerning me a long time ago. But if you asked me, I’d have to say probably not, but if you have evidence, I’d be happy to take a look at it, I have no belief in the tooth fairy or banshees. I couldn’t say categorically that neither exists, but if you can’t present me with proof, why should I think that they do.

    Moving it closer to the question you’re asking, I have no belief in Zeus or Odin. If you asked most people whether Zeus or Odin exist, the answer would most likely be a categorical no way. But the same thing is true. I couldn’t say categorically that neither exist but since nobody has worshiped either of them for quite some time, except for a few conscious anachronists, I would say that neither exists. But I couldn’t say so categorically.

    On the question of the western God, we have a lot of people that claim to have evidence that their notion of God is the correct one, and all others or false ones. In this case, we do have evidence: the evidence shows that for every faith “X”, all other faiths “not X” are false.

    The theists themselves have destroyed the argument for theism, if you want to take the conclusion to its logical end. But all I think you can safely say is at none of them has an answer, and that the answer must lie elsewhere.

  31. I see you still equate atheist with agnostic and vice versa.

  32. This does not disprove the existence of God; not does it prove the non-existence of God.

    Why is it so important to you that others change their beliefs to align with yours?

  33. Ben,
    I think that it’s fine for anyone to believe what they will. I don’t think that any of us knows anything for sure about the existence or nonexistence of a deity. I think that it’s silly for anyone to say that they have definitive knowledge of something like that.

    I find equally offensive and obnoxious theists, atheists, or agnostics who belittle others because of their beliefs.

  34. I have to thank you for the incredible link – it is extremely enlightening and consistent with the teachings of the RCC. You try to disprove the ascension and assumption (in order to disprove the purpose of the church and the faith) – nowhere in this article do I see any commentary related to such. You try to connect man’s state in the “after-life” to that of Jesus and the Virgin Mary. Any “rational” person understands that they are placed above all except the Father; and thus treated as such.
    If I were you my brother, I would pay particular attention to the section on Hell. Whether it is a physical place or a state of being; I do not want to go there for all of eternity and am thankful for the sacrifice (of Christ) and mercy of God. I also do not wish that for you. Repent now.

  35. You might want to reread said comments keeping in mind:

    “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.”

    1 Corinthians 15:14

    Regarding Hell:

    Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous Catholic contemporary theologian, has a different take on hell. He reasons that the Singularity does not tolerate imperfection in his spiritual realm. Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin will simply disappear
    since hell the imperfect state does not exist.

    More from Father Schillebeeckx,

    From his book, Church: The Human Story of God,

    Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

    “Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history” .

    “Nothing is determined in advance: in nature there is chance and determinism; in
    the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

    Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women.”

  36. Please elaborate on the scripture verse that you cite – I’d be curious on your take of what Paul was actually saying to the church at Corinth.

    I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with regard to hell. Again, if it is a physical place, a state of mind/being or you cease to exist – ALL of those are awful endings to our life in this realm.

    That is why Christ was sent – to pay for our sins – so that we may live for eternity with God.

    FYI – only certain sects of Christians believe in predestination – the RCC does not.

  37. please name “experts” . else the argument is at the level of “you think so ?” with the retort “yeah, i think so!”

  38. would you also please name your “experts” . else the argument is still at the level of “you think so ?” with the retort “yeah, i think so!”

    and no one gains any knowledge or leads .

  39. NT experts and references to their studies-
    1. Historical Jesus Theories,
    earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html – the names of many of the
    contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books
    on the subject.

    Early Christian Writings,
    earlychristianwritings.com/

    – a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication–

    4. Jesus Database,
    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html –”The JESUS DATABASE is an
    online a-nnotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings
    of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era.
    It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to
    the traditions found within the Christian New Testament.”

    5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

    6. The Jesus Seminar, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

    7.
    http://www.biblicalartifacts.com/items/785509/item785509biblicalartifacts.html
    – books on the health and illness during the time of the NT

    8. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman,
    Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.

    9.The Gnostic Jesus

    (Part One in a Two-Part Series on A-ncient and Modern G-nosticism)

    by Douglas Groothuis:
    http://www.equip.o-rg/articles/gnosticism-and-the-gnostic-jesus/10. The
    interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission

    Presented on March 18, 1994

    ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2

    11. The Jesus Database- newer site:

    wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=Jesus_Database

    12. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:

    faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html

    13. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:

    mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

    13. http://www.textweek.com/mtlk/jesus.htmm- Historical Jesus Studies

    14. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/

    15. D-iseases in the Bible:

    http://books.google.com/books/about/The_d-iseases_of_the_Bible.html?id=C1YZAAAAYAAJ

    16.
    Religion on- Line (6000 articles on the h-story of religion, churches,
    theologies,

    theologians, ethics, etc. religion-online.org/

    17.
    The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgate-way.com/

    18
    Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.

    ntgat-eway.com/

    19. JD Crossan’s c-onclusions about the authencity of most of the
    NT based on the above plus the c-onclusions of other NT exegetes in the last
    200 years:

    http://wiki.faithfutures.o-rg/index.p-hp?title=Crossan_Inventory

    20. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by title with the
    complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html

    21. Luke and Josephus- was there a c-onnection?

    in-fidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html

    22. NT and beyond time line:

    pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/

    23. St. Paul’s Time line with discussion of important events:

    harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm

    24. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan’s books and
    those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and
    selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at
    Google Books.

    25. Father Edward Schillebeeckx’s words of wisdom as found in his
    books.

    27. The books of the following : Professors Gerd Ludemann, Marcus
    Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.

    28. Father Raymond Brown’s An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY,
    1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.

    29. Luke Timothy Johnson’s book The Real Jesus

    “Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument
    for Jesus of Nazareth [Hardcover]

    Bart
    D. Ehrman (Author)

    Large numbers of atheists, humanists, and conspiracy
    theorists are raising one of the most pressing questions in the history of
    religion: “Did Jesus exist at all?” Was he invented out of whole
    cloth for nefarious purposes by those seeking to control the masses? Or was Jesus
    such a shadowy figure—far removed from any credible historical evidence—that he
    bears no meaningful resemblance to the person described in the Bible?

    In Did Jesus Exist? historian and Bible expert Bart
    Ehrman confronts these questions, vigorously defends the historicity of Jesus,
    and provides a compelling portrait of the man from Nazareth. The Jesus you
    discover here may not be the Jesus you had hoped to meet—but he did exist,
    whether we like it or not.

    Show more

    Show less

  40. Paul without question said that with the physical resurrection of Jesus, Christianity has no foundation to include the guilt trip to your mythical hell.

  41. i was hoping for a discussion, not a bibliography . many of the books you note are quite good, and would provide a solid basis for such a discussion (the web sites i am less familiar with) . but the authors of many of the books that you note contradict each other . so what is your argument . not theirs, yours .

    i know theirs .

    is your thought simply that the origins of christianity are less clear than the fundamentalists like to think ? most christians know that . the basis of christian belief is not in the miracles, it is in the teachings that have been handed down to us .

    the argument against, in my mind, is less in the ancient history, which i take as clear enough, but in the terrible inability of many christians to show their faith by living their faith .

    but what is your argument ?

  42. Paul was correcting/instructing the early church on what had occurred regarding the resurrection of Jesus. Basically, saying that; if you do not believe in the resurrection, then what are we doing this for?
    That being said, he did not say that hell was not real – nor does the author of your previous link say that. In fact, the author of your previous link confirms that hell exists.
    The one connection that you are missing is Christ’s sacrifice for our sins.
    To address your point directly in which you say that because the resurrection occurred; therefore, there is no hell – is incorrect. Because the resurrection did occur, our sins are forgiven; therefore, we do NOT go to hell; but spend eternity with the Father. The one qualifier to this statement is that you need to BELIEVE. Those who do not believe will find out that hell is very real – be it a physical place, a state of mind or vanishing into nothingness.

  43. Obviously you suffer from a severe case of the 3B Syndrome, Bred, Born and Brainwashed in the RCC and no matter what cure we offer will suffice. And note, I cured myself of the same Syndrome by extensive perusal of the studies of many contemporary NT exegetes.

  44. Possibly – but I was mostly just following your argumants/comments to a rational conclusion.
    I was surprised that your line of argument relied upon authors that support/prove what you are trying to disprove.
    Anyway – come home.

  45. Reading comprehension is also not not of your fortes. You are on your own to correct your significant issues.

  46. The Roman Church that came about under Constantine has been part and parcel of the establishment if not the very establishment itself until the Reformation. It was still very much the establishment in Latin America and southern Europe until recent times. It was not too concerned about the poor then.

  47. I agree. I should have been more specific. In the US, the Church became a part of the establishment a bit more recently. I realize that much of the disappearance of the V2 clergy was caused by JP2 and B16, but I believe that many changed their “tune” as the Church cemented its place in the US establishment.

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