Tony Campolo hits hard on abortion, gay marriage, Israel and more

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At 78, Christian left "founding father" Tony Campolo is as tenacious as ever. - Photo courtesy of Evangelical for Social Action

At 78, Christian left "founding father" Tony Campolo is as tenacious as ever. - Photo courtesy of Evangelical for Social Action

At 78, Christian left "founding father" Tony Campolo is as tenacious as ever. - Photo courtesy of Evangelical for Social Action

At 78, Christian left “founding father” Tony Campolo is as tenacious as ever. – Photo courtesy of Evangelical for Social Action

Tony Campolo might rightly be described as one of the founding fathers of the modern day “Christian left.”  An ordained baptist minister and son of a union organizer, Campolo gained prominence as a spiritual advisor to President Bill Clinton. He’s the founder of the Evangelical Organization for the Promotion of Education and the namesake for Eastern University’s Campolo School for Social Change. Progressive evangelical Jim Wallis calls Campolo his “favorite evangelist.”

The evangelical leader and author of Red Letter Revolution is known for his tenaciousness and use of hyperbole to make serious points about injustice. According to a 2003 “Christianity Today” profile, Campolo would often begin speeches by saying,  “I have three things I’d like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don’t give a sh-t. What’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that I said ‘sh-t’ than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”

The rhetorical tactic is undeniably effective, but as “Christianity Today” adds, “The hyperbole and shock are inevitably followed with cogent arguments, along with reams of Scripture.”

At age 78, Campolo is less visibly involved in public advocacy than he once was. But you’ll see, he’s no less opinionated. Here, Campolo discusses his views on a range of today’s most divisive topics, from abortion to gay marriage to Israel.

RNS: You were known in the 1990s for being something of a spiritual advisor to President Bill Clinton. What did he teach you that has stuck with you throughout the years?

TC: What President Clinton made clear was that social change is a strong possibility. And that the church can participate effectively. I’ll give you one particular instance. There’s a group over in the UK that is very evangelical, committed to a kind of Ignatian spirituality and has worked for social justice. The group is called SPEAK. They compiled a great deal of information on the crippling effect which third-world debt has on poor countries.

And at one of our earliest meetings, I passed that on to the president. And that’s one of the things that got him thinking about the cancellation of third-world debts. About a  year and a half later, when the G7 nations met at Birmingham, England, about 1,000 young university students showed up at the building. They weren’t carrying signs, they weren’t chanting, and they weren’t shouting slogans. They simply held a prayer vigil.

All day and all night, with the candles lit, the leaders of the G7 nations took note of this and were very impressed. They began to ask what this was all about. And the answer was, “The cancellation of third-world debts.” It was then that Bill Clinton introduced a motion that the rich countries work hard to cancel third-world debts. And it was a very receptive response to that plea. The first nation they worked with was Uganda. And the debts were cancelled with the stipulation that all the money that would have been paid on the debt and on the interest had to be set aside by the government, in a special fund, that would address the AIDS crisis: medicine, counseling, education.

As a result, they were able to turn things around in places like Uganda, so that within just a couple of years the death rate from AIDS had dropped dramatically. The new cases of AIDS was about one-third of what it was a few years earlier. It had tremendous change. And all this was done because the President made a move. It really does show that people who are in power, who have a heart for the poor and oppressed, are able to make structural changes that are essential to bringing an end to poverty.

RNS: During that time, you clashed openly with folks like Gary Bauer, Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh. What is the enduring lesson to be learned from the religious right experiment in your opinion?

TC: I think that in my exchanges I could have done better if I’d been better informed. I think that people like myself often are right, but we’re not sufficiently armed with facts. We don’t have the huge research resources that all of those people you just mentioned have at their disposal. Whenever they’re going into a debating situation, they have a team that’s equipped them with facts and figures that enable them to come across as very well-informed. When I had to face many of these people in open debate, I had to deal with just the information I had at my disposal.

[tweetable] There is great need for there to be a progressive evangelical think-tank.[/tweetable] It’s been talked about but has never happened. The religious right has huge economic resources and can set up think-tanks, like the Heritage Foundation, that can bolster the debating qualities of those who have to do these kinds of confrontations on social issues like war and welfare reform and things like that. I think the best-informed person we have going for us is Jim Wallis. But we’re not as well-informed as we ought to be.

The one thing I had going for me, that was of incredible use, was that I was brought up in a very fundamentalist background that taught me to memorize Scripture. Consequently, if I was on a television debate with Jerry Falwell, and he brought up the whole idea of women preachers, and he would cite passages in the book of Timothy, and I was able to come back and say,

“Yes, I affirm that, but I have to set what you just said, Jerry, over and against the fact that, in the sixteenth chapter of Romans we have a woman who’s referred to as a fellow apostle. A missionary, a speaker, a leader in the church. I have to put that over and against the fact that the book of Acts talks about Phillip having three daughters who were preachers. I have to put that over and against the fact that in Philippians we read about Eudia and Sntyche, two women who were leaders of the church in Philippi. I have to deal with the fact that, on the day of Pentecost, it was said not only that young men but young women prophecied, which is to say, to preach. So I have all these other instances to set over and against what you have just said. So we do have to handle those verses, and they trouble me, but what do you do with all of these other verses?”

The ability to invoke Scripture was crucial in all of those encounters with the people you just mentioned.

I then would watch Jerry Falwell on another program, dealing with a liberal Methodist bishop, and after Jerry Falwell gave his bit, the bishop said, “In order to recognize the full humanity of women, in order to actualize the potentiality of persons…” It was all this wonderful talk, but it wasn’t Scripture. Jerry’s Falwell’s response, to that bishop, was, “That was a very moving statement you just made. But I have to tell you, as a minister of the gospel I have to be faithful to Scripture.”

Whoa! And I was thinking, “What do the people out there, in radio-land and television-land, hear when they hear these two people?” Somebody with a secular humanistic philosophy versus someone who’s biblically-based. [tweetable]We have to be biblically-based if we’re going to respond to biblically-based people.[/tweetable]

The cover of Campolo's newest book, co-authored with Shane Claiborne. Image courtesy of Thomas Nelson.

The cover of Campolo’s newest book, co-authored with Shane Claiborne. Image courtesy of Thomas Nelson.

RNS: You’ve always taken a more traditional stance on gay marriage and homosexuality than some progressives, including your wife. How did you react to the Supreme Court’s recent DOMA decision?

TC: I was very pleased, but I felt that it didn’t go far enough, and I think many people would say it should have gone further.  What I have advocated, and I’m seeing this being picked up more and more is that there ought to be a clear distinction between church and state. We say that we believe in that, but it hasn’t really been actualized in this case. My position has been, over the last several years, that the government should not legitimate gay marriage, and it should not legitimate heterosexual marriage. What it should do is guarantee the same civil rights to both kinds of couples. And if people want to call it a marriage, they should go down to the church, or the synagogue, or the mosque, and there have the marriage vows taken.

I believe marriage to be, as my Catholic and Lutheran and Episcopalian friends would say, one of the sacraments of the church. And the government should not be deciding who should and who should not engage in sacraments. That’s the role of the church. So, I would like for us, in America, to do what some European countries do. If you want to get married, you do two things: you go down to the city hall and you register as a couple that is establishing a legal commitment to each other, with all the rights and privileges ascertaining thereto. But if you want to call it a marriage, you go to a church.

My critics will say, “Wait a minute. There will be people who go to certain liberal churches where they will marry gays.” And my response is, “That should be their right.” I believe in freedom of religion, and I believe that churches should be able to decide who they want to marry and who they don’t want to marry.

However, while I am personally conservative on this issue, I really have problems with imposing my conservative values on who should get married and who shouldn’t on the rest of society. Or even on the rest of the Christian community. I just don’t think that’s something I have a right to do. So, I think that what the Supreme Court did was positive in this sense: they gave all kinds of legal rights to gay couples that they didn’t have before.

I have friends who are gay, and I know of one couple who is ecstatic because they’re counting out the tens of thousands of dollars that they’re going to save each year. They live in California. Their marriage is now valid, and they have all kinds of tax deductions, arrangements with insurance companies–buying automobile insurance, house insurance, health insurance–that they didn’t have before.

Now here’s the point that I want to make: I, as an evangelical, want to win people to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. [tweetable]It’s hard for me to say, “I love you in the name of Jesus, but I am in favor of maintaining laws that deny you the basic rights that I enjoy.”[/tweetable] If I love you, I want you to have the same rights and privileges that I enjoy. And if I don’t do that, I don’t love you, no matter what my language might in fact indicate. Love is more than just an emotional feeling. I hear people say, “I really love my gay friends.” But what does that mean? That you have a warm fuzzy feelings inside? Love is something you do. And it’s bringing justice to other people. You can’t say “I love you” if I don’t work for justice on that person’s behalf. And if I don’t love you, it’s going to be nearly impossible for me to win you to Jesus.

RNS: What are the most pressing political issues for American Christians in this century in your opinion?

TC: The most pressing issue, and the place where the church is failing incredibly—in fact, political scientists say the church may be the biggest block to justice, in this respect—is justice for Palestinian people.

Tony Blair said once, “Almost every political problem in the world, in one way or another, can be traced back to this disturbance in the Middle East, between the Israelis and the Palestinians.” I believe that the church has allied itself with the Israeli government—and I’m saying the Israeli government because there’s a difference between the policies of the government, and the will of the people. They have aligned themselves with the Israeli government in a way that allows the Israeli government to pursue policies that create injustices towards Palestinian people.

We stood by and actually cheered as the Israelis have established settlements on land that was designated to be a Palestinian state. Today, somewhere around a half a million Israelis are living in land that has been stolen from Palestinians. Houses have been leveled while the former occupants stood by and wept. All this, in order to make room for a settlement that had been condemned by the U.N.—the same United Nations which, in 1948, gave birth to the Israelis to have a nation of their own.

I want to affirm emphatically, I love the fact that the Jewish people have a land of their own. And I agree with them that they need to have safe and secure borders, which they do not have right now. They live with a certain degree of fear, being a few million people surrounded by sixty million Arabs who would to wipe them off the face of the earth. That needs to change. But until we, in America, have become committed to justice for the Palestinian people, even as we support the state of Israel, we are going to lose our moral authority among the Muslim people.

[tweetable]The Muslim world is becoming increasingly militant.[/tweetable] I am watching the Islamic community become increasingly belligerent under the influence of radical Muslims, especially the growing number of radical young people in the Muslim community, and I’m saying this: The US government has lent incredible support to the military forces of Israel, so that is has now the fourth most powerful army in the world. Even though it’s a small nation. More than one third of all the foreign aid the United States gives away in any given year goes to Israel. The fact that the Israelis and the Palestinians feel themselves oppressed is because the US government is financing a military regime that has created that oppression. I think there’s a need for a military for defense, but not for oppression.

Having said that, we all know that the US political system will continue to do this as long as evangelicals, not mainline churches, are pressuring the people in office, from Obama to congressmen and senators, to favor, in an imbalanced way, Israel against the Palestinians. There has to be a commitment to equal justice. Because the evangelical church, with its Christian Zionism, has pressured the governmental leaders into doing what they have done, it is the most pressing political issue of our time. [tweetable]We haven’t even begun to deal with the Middle East situation, which I think will be the cause of World War 3 if we’re not careful.[/tweetable]

RNS: And what about the millions of abortions performed each year in America? Explain to me why that doesn’t make your list.

TC: I think it is a pressing political issue. And I am very concerned that we have allowed the Republican party alone to define the pro-life position. The Democrats have not understood where evangelicals are coming from. They would be able to get a great deal of support from the evangelicals if they would propagate what they know to be true: 72% of all abortions in America are driven by economic forces. That is to say, it is young women who are pregnant, working at a minimum wage, with no health insurance or possibility for daycare, with no pre-natal or post-natal help, and who knows that if she has the baby it’s going to cost her thousands of dollars for hospital care. So we have to begin to ask, “What’s this woman going to do?” Seventy-two percent of the people who’ve had abortions were driven by economic forces and when asked by the Guttmacher Institute, which is a pro-choice organization, “Would you have an abortion if it wasn’t for these economic choices?” would say, “No, we wouldn’t have had the abortion.”

My question is: how can we as evangelicals call ourselves pro-life if all we are anxious to do is to make abortion illegal? If we are not dealing with the economic forces that are driving people to have abortions?

In short, the people in Congress who vote for curtailment of abortion, on the one hand, turn around and vote against raising the minimum wage, vote against universal healthcare, vote against daycare for single women, vote against prenatal and post-natal care? There is an inconsistency here. [tweetable]If we’re going to make abortion illegal, on the one hand, we have to deal with the forces that are driving women to have abortions.[/tweetable] Or else we will drive them underground as they were prior to Roe Vs. Wade. And you know the consequences of driving abortions underground. The evangelical community should have a guilty conscience if, in fact, it makes abortion illegal and doesn’t deal with the economic forces that are driving people to have abortions. I’m pro-life, but pro-life in a full sense, in the sense of Cardinal Bernadin: you can’t just pass a law against abortion. You have to, in fact, deal with the forces that make many women feel that abortion is a necessity for them.

  • Frank

    The forces that are driving people to have abortions are no self control, no planning and no respect for life. Economics is just an excuse.

    And there is absolutely no way to say I love you yet I am condoning your sinful choices by making them easier.

  • Larry

    When you get pregnant, your input on the subject can be taken seriously.

  • Frank, you may be right that many people get pregnant because they were not properly keeping sex in marriage. However, making abortion illegal or providing assistance after the pregnancy happens doesn’t do anything to prevent pregnancy.

    Once someone has sinned, it is not condoning their sin to help them prevent further sin. That is instead called grace, something that Christians should be full of.

  • Frank

    I don’t disagree but over 27000 unborn children are killed each week mostly for reasons of convenience and comfort. We can never ever lose sight of that and we can never accept that. I don’t think abortions will even be illegal again but we can make it harder and harder to get one.

  • Frank

    And when you find morality I will start to take you seriously.

  • Earold Gunter

    Frank, Have you adopted any children?

  • Hannah

    The problem is that a certain section of the public stops caring for those babies once they’re no longer unborn . The moment they need to breath oxygen, they turn into welfare leeches .

  • Marcus Johnson

    Frank, you do realize that Campolo’s position on abortion is a) just as passionately anti-abortion as yours and b) only three paragraphs out of a much longer transcript that also includes support of marriage equality and a controversial stance on Palestine? Your raging erection for spouting off on the abortion issue (which, by the way, didn’t save an unborn infant’s life) is symptomatic of why folks like you will never end abortion.

  • Frank

    I have not. I wouldn’t qualify.

    Now that the red herring is over let’s continue to work harder on saving these innocent unborn children from selfish people.

  • Frank

    We will make abortion harder and harder to get, count in it.

    And when you grow up we can have an adult conversation about theses issues.

  • Dave Farmer

    “How can we as evangelicals call ourselves pro-life if all we are anxious to do is to make abortion illegal? If we are not dealing with the economic forces that are driving people to have abortions? In short, the people in Congress who vote for curtailment of abortion, on the one hand, turn around and vote against raising the minimum wage, vote against universal healthcare, vote against daycare for single women, vote against prenatal and post-natal care? There is an inconsistency here. If we’re going to make abortion illegal, on the one hand, we have to deal with the forces that are driving women to have abortions.”

  • Frank

    Selfishness, lack of planning and selfishness are the forces that are driving abortions. Economics is just an excuse. If you cant afford to have a child don’t conceive one. Men and woman have equal responsibility in this.

  • Frank

    When you are through with your adolescent tirade and are ready to have an adult conversation let me know.

    The responsibility for leaving the church is on you not anyone else. Just another result of people not wanting to own up to their own choices and take responsibility for their own actions.

  • Marcus Johnson

    Sounds like everyone else on this post has to grow up, except for you?

    Only an immature person would say something like that.

  • Marcus Johnson

    I should also point out, again, that your tirades have neither convinced anyone of anything, nor have they saved an unborn fetus’s life.

  • Frank

    Just another excuse from you.

    If you can’t see the immaturity in your comment I don’t know what to say.

  • Frank

    Don’t worry a lot of work is being done to save innocent unborn lives.

  • William J. Green

    There are ~2,000,000 loving American couples waiting to ADOPT newborn babies. Economics does NOT need to be a factor in a woman’s choice to birth or abort her baby.

    BTW, economics is NOT a justification for murder; ever! Otherwise Mary would have been perfectly justified in aborting Jesus.

    Many couples would be willing to help pregnant girls with some of their maternity expenses if only those girls wouldn’t slaughter those couples’ prospective sons and daughters.

    That which is evil can NEVER be made a right!

    Prayer Warriors and Counselors positioned outside an abortuary persuaded these beautiful twins’ mom NOT to abort them. Mom is going to have a blessed and Merry Christmas because of her righteous Life-giving decision.

  • Alan Wilkerson

    Survey says…. X sorry that’s wrong and that’s blaming the victims (note the plural). I also don’t hold with, “you’re not pregnant so you can’t comment’. I’ve never committed suicide but I can tell you it’s a long term answer to a short term problem.

    I do not lay claim to “pro-life” or “pro-choice” because both groups carry way too much baggage to be comfortable. I believe abortion is murder. I also trust in a God who forgave David for murder, who sent Moses back into the land where he murdered someone and who has redeemed lives today of convicted murders.

    Yes, Abortion is an awful choice, so when are congregations going to set up centers in which they can either find adoptive homes for these children and/or work with the woman so that she is able to care for the child after it’s born.

    At the same time, when are individual congregations going to recognize that having an abortion is NOT the unforgivable sin and welcome the stories of those who made this nasty choice.

  • Alan Wilkerson

    So, economics is never a justification for murder, is lust? After all that’s the issue with King David.

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  • It’s appalling that Tony Campolo is ignorant to the fact that the church is offering the true alternative to abortion through the pregnancy help movement. Over 3000 local grassroots organizations serve women and families to offer a true choice. Check out Care Net, Heartbeat International, Birthright. To look only to government solutions is to nullify our faith!

    Killing children can’t solve poverty–or we would have ended it 41 years into RoevWade.

    I know firsthand the damage abortion does to the women and men who choose it. We the church are God’s plan to help those who are troubled by an untimely pregnancy. I can’t imagine a single scenario where Jesus says, “Get rid of it.” Where’s your faith!?

  • Micaiah

    Exactly, Kim! Pro-lifers are offering support to women and their babies in many, many ways – diapers, temporary shelter, help with medical bills, a compassionate ear. Sadly, so many times, this gets passed over when people talk about pro-lifers. And how much better it would be for women if people did mention pregnancy centers in interviews. These centers rarely get publicity, but women really need to know about them.

  • Stan

    Tony Campolo is the people Paul warned us about, who like to cause division within the Church and lead others astray.

    His views on gay marriage, abortion, grace, the human condition, are all flawed. His interpretation of the Bible is flawed. The “woman apostle” interpretation is misleading because it refers to the woman being known to the Apostles, not actually being an apostle.

    Sons and daughters prophesying doesn’t mean the Church should ignore Paul’s command that there be no women who have authority over men in the Church nor women who are preachers in the Church.

    Campolo’s selective interpretation of the Bible and then blindingly dismissing the parts that prove him wrong shows he is not a leader to be followed.

  • Hannah Lewis

    May I submit Frank: Exhibit A in why the anti-abortion side is failing.

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  • Guerilla

    I agree totally with Tony’s comments, that if we want to encourage women to carry their babies to term, we need to make it economically easier to do so. However, if 27,000 babies are aborted every week, and there are only 20,000 couples wanting to take a baby, once those 20,000 families have a baby, what then? Do those children who are not aborted, then have to spend a life in foster care? That is not a pretty picture for the future of a civilised society.

    The answer (in my estimation) is to provide fantastic resources for the poor and vulnerable, to be better (more stable) parents. As a society, we need to reward parenthood.

  • Guerilla

    On the issue of gay marriage – in general, I think I agree with his views. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for our own actions and if churches were left to make their own decisions as to whether they do it or not (without fear that someone will sue them on discrimination grounds), then it becomes their responsibility. They have to stand before God (just like the rest of us) and God alone gets to judge. At present, the Law is dictating to churches what they can and can’t do and that is not their responsibility.

  • Emmi

    Making abortions more difficult to obtain simply makes *safe* abortions more difficult to obtain. In that reality, many women will resort to undergoing an unsafe procedure, resulting in infection, sterility, and even death; if she forgoes the abortion (due to reasons above) in favor of giving birth, the child is almost always the one who pays the price.

    As a volunteer at an inner-city elementary school, I have an up-close-and-personal “in” with many unwanted, unloved children who live in abject physical and emotional poverty.

    If Jesus followers are to be pro-life, then let’s expand those boundaries from pregnancy through birth through childhood – and maybe even beyond. We need to be there for the duration of that life.