Are Catholic conservatives turning on Cardinal Timothy Dolan?

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Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan of New York greets a New York City firefighter while reviewing the 253rd annual St. Patrick's Day in front of St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York on March 17, 2014. RNS photo by Gregory A. Shemitz

Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan of New York greets a New York City firefighter while reviewing the 253rd annual St. Patrick's Day in front of St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York on March 17, 2014. RNS photo by Gregory A. Shemitz

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NEW YORK (RNS) Cardinal Timothy Dolan's positive reaction to this week's decision by organizers of New York's annual St. Patrick's Day parade to allow gay groups to march initially drew charitable responses. Then some Catholics turned.

  • John Cahill

    thank God that Cardinal Dolan is facing up to the reality of our social fabric and allowing an more inclusive, welcoming atmosphere for the LGBT community. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says such folks should be welcomed “with delicacy” (my own translation from the French original) There is no question that Cardinal Dolan is watering down the clear teaching of the Church on sexual morality. He us simply not using that teaching as a club or a wall. Let us give the Holy Spirit the space to act in all parties involved.

  • Doc Anthony

    “A little Excommunication goes a long way.”

    Looks like it’s time for Mr. Dolan to find out EXACTLY what that axiom means !!!!!!!!

  • Larry

    Oh please, like a replacement who is the living embodiment of Torquemada would be particularly welcomed in New York City?

    Conservative Bible Thumping Catholic New Yorkers (what few there are) are still going to flock to Dolan and chalk all of this up to pressure from the Mayor’s office and a concession for PR sake.

  • opheliart

    I think they have all fallen off the Patty Wagon on this one. Once again, separatism …
    I don’t see what the Holy Spirit would be doing in a parade honoring a man a group of dogmatic men chose to saint, likely for money, and that self-serving religious venue to keep the people crawling on their knees (whether in a green beer drunken stupor or seduced into believing these men have any power to saint men, no matter how wordy or pastoral).

    God is not partial and shows no favoritism.

    God never says who is saint, and men dressed to make themselves appear superior than others have no power in this Realm. No wonder Atheism has grown steadily in the States. If this is what they have to go by (gay or not gay, as this is not my business) I can see where God would seem rather silly. Besides turning Jesus into a symbol of greed, selling the fierce >true> Francis as a lucky charm, trinketizing Mary, as well as turning her into a whore … along with the Samaritan Woman at the Well and Mary of Magdala (all symbols of Truth in Spirit Awareness on Life, like EVE, which means LIFE) … they have become encrusted in a way that makes the Spirit look unimaginably UNGodly.

    No one has seen God at any time: if we love one another, God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4.12

    Peace and Love

  • I have to confess I’m a little surprised at these developments. Three strikes in one week. Even that interview at Crux: he comes across as an ex-shoulder-rubber with the rich and famous. In the old days he could get Coach Coughlin a handshake with B16: this is supposed to impress us how? I sure hope the cardinal is doing cold calls in the Apple.

    Msgr Pope, now that development is very, very interesting. His post critical of Cardinal Dolan was quite angry. What gets removed from the blogosphere, and how, is sometimes as instructive as what gets posted.

  • ronald

    Though not a Papist myself, I do respect the zeal of traditionalist Catholics and their unwillingness to buy into modern immorality.

    I enjoyed the “St. Patrick’s Day Massacre” article that Mr. Gibson so thoughtfully linked to. I agree with traditional Catholics that allowing gays to march in a parade is the moral equivalent of mass murder, if not actually worse.

  • Pingback: Conservative Roman Catholics Rise Up…but is it too late? | Laodicean Report()

  • Betty Clermont

    The next morning after the New York Times front page article on Wesolowski, the Vatican stated the former nuncio does not have diplomatic immunity. That is the best example that the current regime is most interested in U.S. public opinion, not Catholic opinion. In order for the Church to continue to have political influence in the “public square,” the Pope, Dolan et al MUST be seen as reasonable men of good will.

  • opheliart

    “In order for the RCC to continue to have POLITICAL INFLUENCE in the “public square” …”

    Yes, Betty, I hear you on this one. This has been the Papal Plan all along—using pope as some new visionary, pleasing the crowds to try to make the Vatican look like it is actually “moving” into new areas of THOUGHT—revisiting Holy Scripture, allowing for broader and more provocative voice, where symbolism of the message is permitted to speak that it might break from the dogmatic rule and sequestering … but, sadly, no … this is all political maneuvering. I in no way dislike Pope Fran, but I do not see him as much more than a political puppet (in his usage on the political-religious stage), that the Vatican might gain a STRONGER foothold in the offices of society. From what I have seen, through the pope’s desire for FRATERNAL dialogue (invitation to China) and “ecumenical” (sitting in with the Pentecostal/Evangelical crowd) posturing, and FAMILIAL relations with the Muslim Brothers, not to mention all those presidential “connections” throughout the world … what else would this be?

    There is a definite effort to “contain” women in all this, if you listen to “his” choice of words. This seems a big part of that plan. I think the Catholics who desire to remain within a “faith” that recognizes God, and recognizes the Spirit Holy, need to understand what is at stake here. Is their leadership, the Papal Office, just pulling a fast one, or are they genuinely seeking renewal? I see that the greater push on the part of the Vatican is to become bigger players in the political, both foreign and domestic. Add Cardinal Pell’s statement comparing the RCC with a trucking company, there is BUSINESS to be had. I think most of the laity are caught up in the poster boy image of Pope Fran and not looking at the strategies of their hierarchy. I do not believe that one calling itself of Christ should be engaging in the political arena as these men have done. If they desire to help heal, they need to step away from the spotlight, and first address the corruption and abuse within their own stations, but it seems that it is this big light that is revealing their true desires.

    Peace and Love

  • Barbara Haehn

    I don’t understand why the gays don’t have their own parade. They could have as many entries as they choose. Why horn in on the St. Patrick’s parade which has nothing to do with their agenda.

  • Larry

    Because its “Catholic opinion” to shield people who commit sexual abuse?
    I don;t think so.

    Other than a few die hard apologetics, the majority of people, including Catholics, want to see these scandals go away by punishing the wrongdoers. Hiding them from sight only serves a hierarchy looking for a little CYA.

    The “current regime” is interested in public opinion because it needs to shore up what credibility it lost by acting badly in the past. Dolan and co are running headlong into a mayor hostile to the parade’s image as being discriminatory. He can either stick to his guns and appease the ultra-conservatives (who are an insignificant population in NYC) or he can be seen as being the Cardinal for New York City. Its not like people are really going to abandon their support of Dolan over this. There are no viable alternatives to throw in with.

  • Larry

    I don’t understand why you think being gay precludes one from being Irish?

    The New York City St. Patricks Day Parade has nothing to do with a sectarian agenda that you think it has.

  • Veronica Sheehan

    Gays were always welcomed to march but not with a banner proclaiming their rejection of Church’s doctrine. Cardinal Dolan is selling his soul to the Devil for so-called ‘inclusiveness’ (to sin?) You can’t compromise with evil. No one is using a club. It is what it is. What other groups who reject the teachings will be allowed to march under their banner. Adulturers?

  • Veronica

    Isn’t the parade named after a ‘saint’. And didn’t he drive the ‘snakes’ out of Ireland? Proclaiming your sin in a parade that honors a saint is problematic and frankly a scandal.

  • Veronica

    Flock to Dolon? I believe you’re just a little big naive concerning faithful Catholics.

  • Larry

    And about 100 years ago or so that meant something to some of the people of NYC.

    For a city whose religious makeup has always been extremely mixed, the sectarian Catholic nature of the parade has always been muted if not more than an irrelevance. The fact that Irish Catholics and Protestants marched together at times when they were practically in open warfare in Ireland, gives you a hint to how unseriously the religious elements are taken by city denizens. There was a Jewish grand marshal one year!

    Nowadays with the disappearance of Irish neighborhoods makes the Catholic elements even less relevant. So irrelevant to the point where a mayor of the city can openly oppose the parade for being discriminatory and not worry about alienating the voter base.

    Its a parade celebrating the Irish in the city. Its as simple as that.

    Maybe elsewhere it is more Catholic and therefore sectarian in nature, but New York City is not a place receptive to such ideas.

  • Larry

    PS. That Jewish grand marshal for the Patrick’s Day Parade happened to be gay as well.

  • Nellie

    In today’s “anything goes” atmosphere, the dear Cardinal is giving a mixed message. What he is saying may be technically correct; but what will be physically viewed by the audience attending the parade will be another thing. Homosexuality will be flaunted, under a rainbow banner, and perceived as “normal” “good” and even “acceptable.” THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE IS A LIE AND MORRALY BANKRUPT. To actually allow it in a parade in honor of a great saint is unbelievable. God have mercy on us all.

  • Larry

    I think you are a little naive concerning New York City. Its not a place which has ever taken conservative religious views seriously en masse (going back to Peter Stuyvesant).

    Bible beating Catholics have few viable alternatives there. They are going to find a way to depict this as the mayor pressuring Dolan. Some of that may be true. Given Dolan’s prior rhetoric, there is a strong reason to believe he lacks all sincerity in his current statements.

  • Michael

    Cardinal Dolan should resign as archbishop of NY. He won’t even defend the basic truths of the faith — tolerance for homosexual behavior is not compassion. It is enabling someone to go to Hell and suffer eternal damnation. God save us from such weak and feckless bishops.

  • Larry

    You may think so, but the denizens of New York City generally believe otherwise.

    Its in a state where gay marriage was accepted by voter majority and has the 2nd largest “out” population in the country. New York City also has some of the largest “affirming” churches out there as well.

    If you find this distressing, you are probably not going to fit in there.

  • Sunny

    There can be no compromise with evil. What Cardinal Dolan chooses to do affects not only himself but those who will look to him for moral leadership. Only pure souls enter Heaven-if only one knew the unimaginable suffering and remorse attached to purgatorial suffering-one would pay more attention to avoiding sin and avoiding leading others to accept sin as morally neutral.

  • Fran

    Larry,
    I don’t believe faithful catholics who believe in the teachings of the church will blame the mayor. Most faithful catholics believe the Cardinal is the one who is suppose to stand up for the teachings of the church no matter what. Cardinal O’Connor said the robes were red for a reason. He never went along with the culture but always the teachings of the church. If what Cardinal Dolan said is true and it is not his decision he could object by boycotting the parade and not allowing them to have Mass in St. Patrick’s church. I am a catholic who believes in abiding by church teaching in New York and I know we are few but I don’t blame the mayor. It is not his job to see catholic teachings are abided by.

  • ciao

    Some Catholics and people who aren’t even Catholic, want the Church to “embrace” diversity by tearing down the walls of Christ’ own teachings and become more “secular” to become “one of us”.

    Why do we need Jesus Christ then?

  • Cdl. Dolan is the Vicar of Bray. Of course orthodox Catholics sneer at him.

  • The Gays do have their own parades, what they are doing here is highjacking our parade to try and make their lifestyle acceptable. This is the confusion of our days.
    Cardinal Dolan needs to read the messages from Our Lady of Medjugorge.
    He is called to help us through these times not join the secular way of thinking.
    He needs to decline gracefully and not look like he’s abandoning Church teaching…If these gays are Irish there is no need to proclaim their sexual orientation, let them keep it for parades that celebrate that

  • If all groups are welcome at the St Patrick’s day parade, and we can’t preclude the homos, — then some “Hetrosexuals” and “StraightPride” groups should also march under their banners — get creative, conservatives–and make your point with a sense of humor.

  • ciao

    If you’re a non-Catholic, then you have no say in this.

  • ciao

    They do have many of their own parades. But the big corporations and big money, as well as those who want to see the Catholic Church vanish, are doing this to try strip the St. Pat’s Day parade of it’s Catholicity.

  • ciao

    It’s not funny.

  • conservative diva

    Conservatives are turning on Cardinal Dolan? When anyone in the Church does wrong we have an obligation to correct him. Cardinal Dolan needs us to pray and fast for him to have the courage to change his mind about leading the parade.

  • weary catholic

    Little by little the church is being revised and modernized and not for the greater good of the soul, but of the body. I am so saddened and afraid for the future. May God have mercy and show us the way again.

  • opheliart

    ciao says … If you’re a non-Catholic, then you have no say in this.

    What if you are not Catholic and Catholic is using public property for its own agenda—religious, big money, political, or other?

    What if every sainted person in every religion under every banner of belief, also celebrating their ethnicity, was to have a parade? Do you think the streets would be drivable at all throughout our lifetime?

  • Jeffrey

    The next thing we will see is Dolan marching in the Gay Pride Parade like all those phoney politicians.

  • ciao

    “In a homily at St. Patrick’s, Cardinal O’Connor asked: “Do the Mayor and the Police Commissioner agree to this arbitrary transformation from the religious to the political? Will other religiously related activities become equally vulnerable to arbitrary politicization in this land which boasts of its tradition of separation of church and state?”

  • Intellectone

    Then remove the name Saint Patrick.!

  • Intellectone

    Isn’t he already part of them?

  • Intellectone

    To Larry..
    Your statement saying “that the jewish grand marshal for the Patrick’s Day Parade happened to be gay as well”. Are you saying or insinuating that Dolan, that is going to be the grand marshal, is gay too?

  • ciao

    Pray for the clergy.

  • donna

    dolan is a functioning Catholic illiterate who is morally responsible for corruption of souls. This is staggering in its implications. If it is not characterizing Cuomo as a Catholic “in good standing” WHAT ? it is declamation of support for active public homosexual conduct or celebrating at entirely optional festive events with politicians who are supporters of abortion. It is irrelevant whether Catholic NY’ers agree with this.He is not an elected official. Even if he were it would still be outrageous. He should refuse to be in a room with any of these political figures unless it is for unavoidable public obligations. His obligation is to present the public face of the teaching of Magisterium in matters of faith and morals. He can express his personal opinions on matters affecting Catholic civic life openly as we are not compelled to comply. replies above are for most part sickening.

  • taad

    I’m sorry but this experiment of not teaching on morals was tried in the late 60’s and early 70’s by Pope Paul VI. He came out with Humane Vitea, but then told bishops not to push it. The results was catastrophic! No hard teaching was done for a long time. And now, not many people understand any of the teachings. What’s the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. This push by Francis and the bishops is like a re-occurring nightmare. The flood gates of hell have been unleashed upon us. No more Truth is taught. We’re back to just the Love Gospel again. Why do we waste time printing entire Bible anymore? Just remove everything except the “God is Love” part. I challenge anyone to show me where Jesus or Saint Paul ignored sin or waited very long to correct someone.

  • john milner

    EVIDENCE: DIVISION, DISCORD, and DISCOURAGEMENT is DOLAN’S GIFT TO THE CATHOLIC FAITHFUL.
    I am a New Yorker. Please do not speak for New Yorkers. You probably live in Illinois.
    Are you (*&^&*(*%^ kidding me? You think by letting these militant sodomites parade in a Catholic tradition you are going to convert them? The Holy Spirit works in repentance and we are guilty if we do not warn the wicked. Listen to this weeks readings. There is no doubt the Cardinal’s flabby lack of spine has successfully alienated, confused, and disheartened the faithful Catholics of New York City. Instead of building up his flock from within, he is letting it be torn down from without. SHAME on HIM!!!

  • I saw a picture of Teddy Roosevelt grinning and hugging Cardinal Gibbons of Baltimore, perhaps around 1908. The Catholic Church had struggled to be accepted as a legitimate part of American life for so long. It was finally accepted, but that acceptance gradually became the Church’s undoing in the US. We had to sell out, little by little, to be liked. Now Dolan and other bishops have a hard time when their accommodations to the pagan world around us here bring only dismay from faithful Catholics and a strengthening stranglehold from the “lawless one” in the White House. We should have known better.

  • magdalen

    Not ‘conservatives’ but faithful Catholics are concerned. It is not about being ‘welcoming’ but about standing up for what is true about sexual morality. Yes, many of the Church hierarchy are compromising with the world but that is not true love because true love is concerned for the salvation of souls and not about the approval of the world.

  • So, you’ll be screening applicants for parade permits to exclude Catholic organizations (or perhaps only Catholic organizations led by men with an excess of gravitas, of which no one would now accuse Cdl. Dolan)?

  • Exceedingly doubtful he’s illiterate. “Goofy, people-pleasing careerist” might make it closer to the mark.

  • Joellen

    I dont believe the People voted on it – Homosexual marriage was voted on by Cuomo and the majority democrat party and a few Republicans.

    Even so, if you are a follower of JESUS CHRIST, it is a moot point that the denizens are for it. This was once about a parade that honored a Catholic Saint. Sadly, it has been taken over by the secular world.

    Dolan contributed to the debasing of the parade and the confusion that will ensue due to dolan’s cooperation in this matter will be devastating.

    Dolan forgets his job is to bring Souls to the SAVIOR and not to a decadent parade.

  • john

    the “St. Patirck’s Day Parade” is a secular celebration of Irish heritage. It is not an ecclesiastical event. All the “sons and daughters” of St. Patirck, gay or straight, divorced and remarried, or of other life situations not in accord with Roman Catholic teaching should be welcome to be in the parade. Should soldiers be excluded? (Love your enemies)

  • john

    I feel so sorry for you.

  • David Ciavarella

    The Church is really not so much about appeasement or popularity, rather it should be about bringing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ to the body. Many people frustrate me when strategy and politics must be the priority when making choices for the Catholic church. Truth and justice with accord to morals and values of the whole church should always be foremost. The Catholic Church is not about a democracy. As a husband and father I am asked to protect my family with the willingness to give my life if neccessary. I expect the very same loyalty from my Catholic hierarchy if that is what is required to keep the Faithful true to authentic Catholic tradition.

  • opheliart

    Art Deco,

    Are you asking ME if I will be screening applicants? No. It’s your bed of excess not mine.

  • John Milner

    The homo-fascists are the real hippocrites here. Not the catholics trying to preserve its historical dignity. Sodomites have from time memorial continually warred against the Catholic church. They continually mock, criticize, and scorn the faithful through popular culture. It was Sodomites who snuck into the priesthood that raped altar boys and brought shame and scandal to the Holy Church. They now have the big microphone and propaganda weapons of the media, and Dolan shamelessly caved under their pressure combined with his incredible appetite for people to like him.

    Its obvious Sodomites want to “marry” because its evidently a good in nature and they are parasites of the good. They corrupt goodness and the innocent and then feed like vultures. Even they know marriage is a normal and natural convention and their depraved and perverted insanity, directly resulting from their disordered sinful actions, has led them to crave normalcy.
    They want desperately to march in the St. Patricks’s Parade, under a banner proclaiming “gayness” to normalize themselves publicly for similar reasons. Their war is not against society, the Church, or even the law. It is against nature and reality and truth, things that continually bear witness against them in their persistent and chosen perversions.

    Anyone who says its “just a parade” and just a good old time void of its Catholic roots, is not very deep in the critical thought department.
    It has meaning to the meaningful souls.

  • kathleen

    Pray, pray for the Church. Pray, pray for Cardinal Dolan. That’s all that matters.
    God will do the rest. Trust in Him. He has the last word.

  • Fran

    Kathleen,
    I do pray for our church, always. I also pray for Cardinal Dolan. I think he is a very nice person and doesn’t like to hurt anyone. I don’t think it is easy to be a bishop here in New York. New York is a tough place and the Cardinal did not grow up in a rough atmosphere like New York City. I definitely agree we need to pray and fast for him. God does not want us to criticize our bishops and priests but pray for them. I know that can be tough sometimes because we don’t always agree with them but as believers we need to stand together and pray for one another. The devil is always happy when there is division and anger so as hard as it can be sometimes we can’t give into it. We need to pray so much now especially the rosary for Peace in the world like Our Blessed mother asked us to in Fatima. We need to pray like we never prayed before.

  • Larry

    Talk about denial!

    It was passed by the State legislators. Just like every gay marriage bans in other states you guys try to defend as the “voter’s will”. The only difference being, New York wasn’t running afoul of the 14th Amendment Equal Protection clause.

    Again, New York City may not be for you. Bible thumpers are not really taken seriously over there. I get the impression you really did not give any attention to the parade in the past. But when someone in a religious position decides not to treat gays like crap, you guys suddenly become ultra-concerned and steaming mad. No greater wrath than against those who don’t want to hate the same way you do. How pathetic.

  • Larry

    @ Fran

    Dolan doesn’t want to look like a villain here by protesting. Frankly people likely to object are a distinct minority in the city and not really a large part of his support base. Even “faithful” Catholics in the city would likely to turn on him for doing as you suggest, calling it mean spirited or venal. You are talking about a fairly liberal, extremely religiously mixed city with a history of hostility to sectarianism. Maybe it might fly elsewhere but not in NY.

  • Larry

    @ John

    I am a New Yorker. Born and raised.

    Your “Catholic tradition” hasn’t been very Catholic for about a century. Protestants march in it freely, they had a Jewish grand marshal one year (who happened to be gay).

  • Larry

    @Intellectone

    Your statement saying “that the jewish grand marshal for the Patrick’s Day Parade happened to be gay as well”. Are you saying or insinuating that Dolan, that is going to be the grand marshal, is gay too?

    No I am referencing former Parade Grand Marshal and Mayor Ed Koch.
    http://nycrecords.tumblr.com/post/53933427639/mayor-edward-i-koch-marching-in-st-patricks-day

  • Ellen

    I wonder if there will be any restrictions to what the LGBTQ’s will be allowed to wear in the parade? Will Dolan be ok, like Cuomo was, to march side by side with men in high heels and rainbow g-strings worn in all the gay pride parades? Will he be proud to walk arm in arm with them?

  • Cat6

    I agree. Saint John Bosco’s vision is becoming more relevant by the day!

  • Ridicule the clergy.

    Wearing a clown hat and fancy drapery is known as a halloween costume – not proper attire for respect.
    Abandon this nonsense – your children will laugh at you as they should.

  • @Donna,

    “politicians who are supporters of abortion.”

    Nonsense.
    Supporting a woman’s right to OWN her body is not ‘support for abortion’.

    Ignorance like this is what destroys law and promotes primitive, religious Jesus garbage.

  • @Veronica Sheehan,

    “but not with a banner proclaiming their rejection of Church’s doctrine.”

    And that is the problem.
    Who do you religious people think you are? Everyone has to do things your way?

    What is wrong with proclaiming a banner rejecting Church doctrine?
    Last time I checked the streets of New York were built with public money, maintained with public money and cleaned up with public money.

    Is the Catholic Church paying for the police overtime?
    Is the Church paying for the re-directed traffic?
    Is the Church providing crowd control?

    You want to have a parade to promote your bigotry?
    Don’t do it on the public dole!

    Have your dumb parade in your church!
    You can have all the gay-hating, woman-hating, sex-hating, life-hating misery you want.

    “Let he who does not love the Lord be CURSED” – (1 Corinthians 16:22)

    Well, RIGHT BACK ATCHA !!!

  • @John Milner,

    “They corrupt goodness and the innocent and then feed like vultures.”

    *THEY* do ?

    Wrong.
    The evidence shows YOUR JESUS is the divisive, fascistic, hateful destroyer of civilization.

    JESUS – I WILL DISMEMBER PEOPLE WITH A SWORD
    “The master shall cut him to pieces” – Jesus (Luke 12)
    JESUS describes what he intends to do to his own enemies.

    JESUS – I SHALL RETURN TO EXECUTE MY ENEMIES
    “..bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King, and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    JESUS – YOU SHOULD DROWN THEM
    “Drown him with a millstone” (Matt 18:6)

    JESUS – KILL YOUR CHILDREN THE WAY GOD TOLD YOU TO
    “And why do you break the command of God
    for the sake of your tradition? …. ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ ” (Matthew 15:3)

    JESUS – YOU MUST JUDGE OTHERS HARSHLY
    “…if they are unworthy..REMOVE your blessing of peace.” – JESUS (Matt 10:13)

    JESUS – I CAME TO BURN UP THE WORLD AND DESTROY IT
    “I have come to bring FIRE…What constraints! I am impatient to bring NOT PEACE BUT DIVISION.” – Jesus (Luke 12:49-51)

    JESUS – HATE THOSE WHO LOVE YOU
    “Hate your parents…hate your life” – Jesus (Luke 14:26)

    JESUS – I’M A MAFIA GODFATHER. DO IT, OR ELSE.
    “Eat of my body” and “Be baptized and believe” or “Be condemned to Hell” – Jesus (John 6:53-54) (Mark 16:16).

    JESUS – I WILL KILL THE CHILDREN MYSELF
    “I shall kill her children with Death” – Jesus (REV. 1:22-23)

    JESUS – I WANT YOU TO LIVE IN A HOUSE FULL OF ENEMIES
    “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death…for ME.” – JESUS (Matthew 10:21)

    JESUS – I’M HERE TO RUIN YOUR LIFE AND ALL THAT YOU LOVE
    “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his daughter, and a daughter against her mother, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.” – JESUS (Matthew 10:35)

    JESUS – JUDGE OTHERS FOR GOD’S WRATH!
    “And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet AS A TESTIMONY AGAINST THEM.” – JESUS (Luke 9:3-5)

    JESUS ENDORSED the stoning laws – He rejected any change to the stoning laws of Moses.

    JESUS – KEEP ALL 500 STONING LAWS AS GOD COMMANDS
    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commands and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” – JESUS (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

    JESUS – STONE THESE PEOPLE TO DEATH:
    “not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law” – JESUS (Matthew 5:18-19)

    Gays
    Inhabitants of conquered cities
    Victims of rape
    People who work on Sunday
    Infidels
    Prostitution
    Uncircumcised men
    Men who have sex with women who are menstruating
    Ignorers of Priests
    Ignorers of Sacraments
    drinking blood
    People who eat peace offerings
    People who let food go bad
    People who do magic tricks
    Going to temple while filthy
    Heretics
    Perjurors
    fortune tellers
    Spiritualists
    False prophets
    People who approach the Tabernacle
    Apostates
    Kidnapping
    Witches
    Stubborn children
    Rebellious children
    Profligates
    Sorcerers
    Marrying a woman and her daughter
    Adulterers
    Fornicators
    People who are irresponsible with their bulls
    Worshipping idols
    Unruly children
    Slaves who run away
    Gluttons
    Drunkards
    Liars
    Slaves who disobey
    Wives who disobey
    Men who steal
    Women who steal
    Children who steal
    Children who are witches
    Masturbators
    etc…

    There would be nobody left!
    Shame on you.

  • Jack

    This is typical Modernist Vatican II nonsense that the church has become a New church, protestant and has bent over to please Man/Woman and Not G_D. This is why the One True Church still exists in the Traditionalists, the SSPX, SSPV and others, like other heresies the church is going through right now, these so called Bishops are not saving souls as Jesus instructed his Apostles to do, lay down their lives for their sheep, but modernists and like Dolan who conducted mass in Wisconsin dressed in a Cheesehead outfit for Football, a true Clown. Our Lord said the Gates of Hell would not prevail but never said where it would reside, the only group the church does not feel inclusiveness with is the pre V2 Traditionalists because they are what the church once was and never do you hear any of the so called New Cardinals or Popes quote any of the teachings of the first 1950 years of the church because the last 50 are a complete defection, new catechism, new mass, new customs, new code of canon law, homosexuality, everything, pray for a true restoration in Christ

  • @ciao,

    “If you’re a non-Catholic, then you have no say in this.”

    Well,
    Then, I guess if you are not a Muslim you should have nothing to say about the Head-chopping practices of Allah.

    And if you are not a Hindu, you should have nothing to say about class deprivation in India.

    And if you are not a worshipper of Quezaltcotl I guess you should have nothing to say about THROWING VIRGINS INTO VOLCANOES!

    Keep your primitive rat poison in your house of worship.
    Parade your bigotry for all to see – and you will get the reaction you deserve. Ridicule.

  • @Opheliart,

    “God is not partial and shows no favoritism.”

    Says who?
    Yahweh is a ‘Jealous God’. (Ex 34:14) and unbelievers are to be killed.
    Jesus only came for the Israelites, everyone else is a ‘dog’. (Matt 15:26)
    Allah rejects all Christians and Jews. (Q’uran)
    Ganesha and Vishnu show no interest in other religions.

    Unfounded Claim: “God loves everybody”

    Yeah? Which god are you talking about?

  • Betty Clermont

    Thanks very much, opheliart. You are absolutely correct: “I see that the greater push on the part of the Vatican is to become bigger players in the political, both foreign and domestic.” My only point was that the pope and his men don’t particularly care what practicing Catholics think since their targeted audience is worldwide public opinion which is heavily driven by the American media.

  • Concerned

    Gay or straight Catholics I’m sure can march ” unknown” in the gay pride parade but would the same parade and its organizers tolerate an openly Catholic contingent that carried a banner advocating our belief in the traditional family? I highly doubt it!

  • opheliart

    Oh, wow, Max … this is priceless 🙂

    Now … you say …
    “Have your dumb parade in your church!
    You can have all the gay-hating, woman-hating, sex-hating, life-hating misery you want.”

    Isn’t this what marriage is within a WEDDING—a type of parade? A parading down the aisle … and whatever else goes with it. Yes, it should remain within the culture and “housing” of those practicing, but of course, people can pay ____ to marry outside the parish setting, and this would be up to those that own the property and PAY THEIR TAXES and keep up with the laws according to the government, for it IS A BUSINESS IF IT IS SELLING SOMETHING (including schools/colleges, and the “marriage contracts/licenses” …). What goes on inside the “house” is of the affairs of those practicing, unless … unless … it spills out into the streets, houses and offices of others. This would go for ANY cultural practices (and beliefs). Hmm … sticky points here … especially with freedom of speech.

    So, how does one decide fairly in all of this? Does it come down to who pays for what and where? But what happens to the huge numbers who cannot afford to pay for their rights. This then takes us into the larger family unit. A religion can flood the cities and towns with their own simply by stating that doctrine says x, y, z … or, like in India, where the RCC told the Catholic families that they would pay for the education of their FIFTH child. Why the number 5, you would have to ask the RCC … You see where I am going with this? It is certainly of political agenda and not purely of religious beliefs according to the DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH.

    Peace and Love

  • Card Dollar

    What do the University of Notre Dame, Al Smith Dinner, and St. Paddy’s Day NYC Parade have in common? -> All are no longer Catholic.

  • @Joseph,

    “You have done more harm than any other bishop ….May God have mercy on your soul!”

    That is immoral.
    You are wishing Dolan to Hell while wishing God won’t send them there!

    Make up your mind.

  • opheliart

    I AM the Lord your God who brought YOU out of the land of Egypt and out of the house on bondage.

    You will get it, Max … you will 🙂

    Peace and Love

  • @Ellen,

    What is wrong with G-strings? What is wrong with men in high heels?
    Sex is fun. If your God didn’t want men to be beautiful and amazing
    why did he make them that way?

    According to Dolan, men wearing phallic hats, gold amulets and red silk drapery appears to be especially ‘blessed’.

  • @Opheliart,

    I was never in Egypt.
    But Your god should have known that. And if you were never in Egypt he would not be addressing you either.

  • @Ciao,

    “Why do we need Jesus Christ then?”

    You don’t.

  • @Opheliart,

    “sticky points here … especially with freedom of speech”

    No. This parade is a show – a blend of religion and politics and it is paid for by the public.
    Under those circumstances the public has every right to share its own opinions however ‘unchristian’ they may be and to do so with as much gusto as the Catholics.

    If the Catholics don’t like this – then they can suck on some holy wafers. Freedom of speech is not just for some – it is for everybody.

    The St. Patty parade is dumb, anachronistic, mysogenist, homophobic, slave-loving, Irish-loving nonsense – But their freedom to speak is fine.

    Just don’t expect respect for taking the Catholic view of this.

  • @Concerned:

    “but would the same parade and its organizers tolerate an openly Catholic contingent that carried a banner advocating our belief in the traditional family? I highly doubt it!”

    Right – well, that would be like Nazis asking for the right to be in a Jewish parade.

    Are you aware that Catholicism preaches death to Gays?

    “Kill homosexuals”
 – (Leviticus 20:13)
    “not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law.” – JESUS (Matthew 5:18-19)
    “In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

    I am not gay but clearly these acts are not ‘shameless’! They are loving. It is primitive superstitious nonsense to say otherwise.

    The gays marching in the Catholic parade
    are trying to help humanize their religion (It won’t work but that is a different matter).

    Gays have no obligation to promote superstition and murder.
    But it comes with being a Catholic.

  • Joseph

    Max,
    Your name, “Atheist” says it all, you have no understanding of the Catholic/Christian faith, doctrine and Scripture and therefore, your comments reflect it. I have not condemned Dolan–God’s inspired word in the Bible do. I stand on Holy Scripture which you, as an atheist do not believe and accept. Did you read my last line? May God have mercy on your soul—and, I add, may God bless you and give you the light of faith, accept God and follow Him all the days of your life!

  • Larry

    In New York in March, its usually pretty cold. Walking around G-strings is a dicey venture at best. 🙂

  • Joseph

    PS: Max,
    If you want to get down to the basics of what these so-called cultural wars are all about, it’s the Secular City of Man vs. God, it’s satan and all who oppose God and His Messiah. Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is only the messenger of God’s Truth and Love.

  • opheliart

    Max, you are funny.

    It’s symbolic.

    Peace

  • Doc Anthony

    And that’s the point. Very well stated.

  • Doc Anthony

    Cardinal Dolan clearly agrees with you, Max. That’s for sure !!

    (PS…. My 11:17 am post, was to express agreement with “Joellen” and also with “John Milner.”)

  • Doc Anthony

    Don’t worry Tommy, we Protestants are committing the EXACT same fatal sellout turncoat mistakes !!!!

  • Jim

    The readings for today, the 23rd Sunday in Ordinary time addresses this evil!
    That is if one really “listens” to the Word of God spoken to us through the Scriptures……The readings speak to us and are to be acted upon…Go and read and hear .. and be shepherds to the flock and not ravenous wolves!

  • Doc Anthony

    You know what, Larry? I’d rather see YOU become “the Cardinal for New York City” than this fake sellout “cardinal” Mr. Dolan.

    See, I KNOW what your religion is. I know that YOU will not betray and sellout your atheism for 30 pieces of homosexual silver. I can trust YOU to stick with what you say you believe. Max too, by the way.

    But Mr. Dolan? HIS religion is “politics.” HIS religion is “sell your soul so you can stay on Guinness Beer’s and Andrew Cuomo’s good side.” That’s all Dolan is offering these days. Jive-time var-mint sell-out politics.

    So, if I promise to write Pope Francis a letter of recommendation, would you agree to apply and interview for the Cardinal job? America needs somebody they can trust in that postiion.

  • Doc Anthony

    Why do you say that, John? The truth is pretty clear on this one. Dolan has now proved that he’s a jive-time sell-out var-mint. Why not just acknowledge it?

  • Doc Anthony

    Excellent question Ellen. Now that Mr. Dolan has actually ENDORSED the homosexual movement marching under their own banner in the St Patrick’s parade, within about two or three years, there will be NO way Dolan can tell them to leave out the drag queens. Mr. Dolan is totally clueless about the magnitude of his mistake.

  • Doc Anthony

    NAMBLA, yes?

  • Doc Anthony

    “If you find this distressing, you are probably not going to fit in there.”

    Hey Larry, that’s pretty much what the Bible suggested about Lot living in the city of Sodom yes? The man didn’t fit in too well, it seems. You are starting to sound prophetic.

    The best thing any resident of Sodom can do, is EVACUATE while they’re still alive !!!

  • Leonard St. Pierre

    Really! Take a pill. God is in control. We are all going to answer for our miss guided ways. This includes the atheists. You are all a child of God if you want to believe it or not. When God call you from this life, you will as well as all of us will be held accountable. Please take some time and look into your heart.

  • @Opheliart,

    “It’s symbolic.”

    Then it isn’t real.
    If it isn’t real it isn’t true.

  • @Joseph,

    Catholic for 44 years – that’s me.
    Now I’m Atheist.

    Atheist means “I do not believe in God”
    That is all it means.

    I taught sunday school. But now I see…Religion is a charade.

  • Veronica

    Fran is absolutely right except that the Cardinal was even enthusiastic about being the Grand Marshall. Has he lost it? And the Mayor is pro-homosexual and anti-life. We must pray for his soul.
    As for Larry’s comments that there is no one left who supports the Church’s teachings in NY. What difference does it make? Whether there are two people or ten or thousands, the Church must uphold it’s teachings.

  • Veronica

    Atheist Max says….What is wrong with proclaiming a banner rejecting Church doctrine?
    Apparently you are unaware that St. Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland. It is a parade about this saint. It is a Catholic Saint.
    And who are the bigots? Your anti-Catholic rant says it all.

  • Veronica

    Larry…Gay Marriage was “never’ voted in by the people. It was rushed in by the pro-homosexual anti-life Cuomo and the legislature.. But even if a majority voted it in (I’m sure slavery and segregation would have received majorities also) are you suggesting that decent pro-life, pro-tradtional families should just leave and let the city go further into Hell?

  • BJ

    St Patrick would not want his name associated with a parade which
    promotes supports sexual behavior which is unequivocally condemned in
    the New Testament ( plz don’t reference pre Christ-ian OTestament writings re killing homosexuals… Christ came to change all that but He did not lift the ban on homosexuality!) Cardinal Dolan has no authority as a representative of Christ on earth to reinterpret Biblical admonition and warnings as to the consequences of certain sexual behavior. Neither can he avoid taking responsibility for the damage which is done to the minds and souls of innocent children who are being conditioned to see homosexual behavior as acceptable and normal which it clearly tells us in the New Testament is not so. Please now remove StPatrick’s name from ‘the parade’.

  • Veronica

    Your prior rebuttal to John Milner was like the Tower of Babel. You’re confusing the moral law with the cultural law.
    Jesus upheld the moral law but chastised the religious leaders for following their cultural laws at the expense of their neighbors.

  • Veronica

    My prior comment is directed at Atheist Max.

  • opheliart

    This comment board is not set up for lengthy discussion.

    Anyway, Max, you say:

    @Opheliart,

    “It’s symbolic.”

    Then it isn’t real.
    If it isn’t real it isn’t true.

    Response:
    But you cannot deny that religion is as real as politics. You can call religion bull-dung, and bull-dung may stink to high heaven to you, but what can YOU do about it? If they let the bull run loose, you can’t say, “Hey, bull, you stink! Get out of my way! This is my parking spot!” The bull just turns and looks at you and says, “They pay me a lot of money to be here in your spot.”

    So, what have you to get the bull out of your way?

    🙂

  • Veronica

    Larry….He can’t be a Cardinal who accepts sinful lifestyles which are contrary to the Church teachings.
    And whether we are so-called ‘insignificant’ God-fearing True Catholics, God reassured us that even if there be a hundred, or ten or even five he would save us. I pray that we stay to keep NYC from descending more into Helll.

  • Veronica

    Larry…Nice try but it’s still a parade honoring a ‘Catholic Saint” who drove the ‘snakes out of Ireland’. If no one is left, end the Parade. Or call it an Irish/anything goes parade.

  • Veronica

    The Gays want to infilitrate everything. They won’t be happy until everyone is approving and celebrating their sinful behavior and until they can propagandizing our children and infiltrate our churches, every sector of this country/world until their lifestyle is considered normal and good. It doesn’t matter that this disordered inclination has lead to other sexual preferences and disorders which are deadly to the body as well as the soul. God help us all.

  • Veronica

    Oh, they’ll find a way to offend.

  • Max, I think it would be more accurate to say you are anti-religion, especially since you so rarely, if ever, bring the atheist perspective. Everything you post involves a platform in religion, including your persistent misquoting of ctrl-V Scripture.

  • opheliart

    continued from previous …

    Max,

    Do you see what I am saying? There are elephants and there are donkeys, and there are bulls dressed as elephants and donkeys … but the bull has decided that he wants to come out of the closet (those dark, hidden rooms where there is much strategy being discussed). Patriarchs may be the thing of the past, but they still hold a jangle of keys to many, many cells.

    Peace be with you …
    and also with you?

  • @Opheliart,

    My topic related response:

    REAL Gay men and women are going to be harmed by Catholics who insist on fighting back on Dolan.

    Gods are ‘symbols’ – they are just ideas about imaginary things (there is no evidence to the contrary).
    Every aspect about Gods is imaginary until and unless proven otherwise.

    And as such, gods and their IMAGINED WISHES should not be allowed to have any power over real people.

    Catholicism is an IDEA of an imaginary realm with its own Kingdom which has a BIGOTED dictator and imaginary angels and demons.

    We must not let these imaginary realms of fantasy HURT REAL people who have no power to change who they are.

    ISIS has its own IMAGINARY REALM CALLED ISLAM. It is very similar in structure to the IMAGINARY REALM OF CATHOLICISM with absolutist dictators and Jinns.

    Imaginary realms (religions) must never be allowed to hurt REAL people.

    “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

  • Ron

    Don’t call yourself catholic we who are believe in Jesus who lived here on earth not the watered down one you think you now

  • Jack

    It is the hatred for anything catholic and what martyrs gave their life for that one must never bring up your children in the Novus Ordo , just today the “Pope” said throw out all teachings of the past, embrace the new religion of the Novus Ordo. After 30 years I was left with no choice after not knowing my faith to leave this facade of what appears catholic but is not and attend a Traditional Chapels. It will only get worse.

  • Ron

    you arte from another world and it of satan

  • opheliart

    Mad Max,

    “REAL Gay men and women are going to be harmed by Catholics who insist on fighting back on Dolan.”

    REAL Gay men and women? There are gay Catholics, Max, and many are in the Roman Catholic Church doing just fine. The RCC is not going to drive them out because money is money. Do you think the Evangelicals and others care all that much about their Patty Parade? It’s as much business for the merchants there as it would be anywhere. It’s BUSINESS! It’s a tourist attraction. It brings in money for the city. This is a “hey look at me” tactic … diverting attention away from “other areas”. The RCC has been ruling the masses for centuries … they are not stupid.

    What YOU need to be thinking about is that third party.

  • @Todd,

    Atheist = “I do not believe”
    The Atheist perspective on religion? There is nothing to say except to respond:
    You say: “god exists”
    I say: “I don’t believe it”
    End of story. I don’t claim God to be impossible, only that I am waiting for any evidence at all that these claims are true.

    In the meantime, I am Anti-Theist, also.
    Anti-theism is necessary once you claim, “and..I know what God wants.”

    These claims about a god leads to needless harm.
    Gays are needlessly harmed by religion because there is no evidence at all that the religious claims about homosexuality being ‘evil’ are true.

    You take on an enormous responsibility when you say the words ‘God exists’ and go further and add…”I know what he wants.”

    Until evidence shows otherwise, Catholicism is a fantasy realm of imaginary things with its own imaginary language; sins, deity, sanctification, salvation, etc. These things are not real (as far as I can tell) and though you have every right to believe in these things
    The rest of us should not have to work so hard to point out that these imaginary demands of ‘god’ must be kept out of the real world.

    “My kingdom is not of this world” – JESUS

    I’m here to remind you to keep it that way.

  • opheliart

    Max,

    What large group at present with Catholic “clout” may be weary of the heavy handedness of the Papal office?

  • @Joseph,

    “it’s the Secular City of Man vs. God”

    That cannot be true.
    God is imaginary and the realm of God is not manifested in our reality – and there is ample evidence of this; prayers don’t work, etc.

    You have a right to believe in god but you must keep it in the imaginary realm where he belongs.

  • Larry

    The National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes. Most definitely so.

  • Larry

    You types are going to consider New York City, City of The Damned anyway. Why should any of them even bother catering to you?

    And no, the sin of Sodom and Gommorah was treating strangers badly. New York is pretty rough on newcomers but not to Biblical proportions. However such behavior is something you encourage on numerous occasions.

    How does it feel to be a Sodomite?

  • Larry

    Veronica you are a liar.

    It was voted in by the process in which all laws in the state are adopted. Through its duly elected legislature. The democratic processes that you crow about when a state has a gay marriage ban.

    Do you think God encourages you to be so cavalier with the truth?

    New Yorkers were also against slavery and segregation as well. So more nonsense on your part.

    If people want to discriminate against gay couples getting married in the state, they can suffer the consequences the state laws have for such actions. If you think it is so unbearable to live in a state where gay marriage is legal, you should get out of New York. Its not going to be comfortable for you.

  • Larry

    Unless the Pope says its OK.

  • Larry

    Why would I want a job which involves hiding money from judgments to protect sexually abusing co-workers?

    Dolan can keep it. 🙂

  • Larry

    Nice try but it hasn’t had any religious significance for generations. It is a parade in St. Patricks name only. They can call it the Irish Day Parade and it will have the same effect.

  • Larry

    You already have. 🙂

  • Brothers and Sisters in Christ, leave Atheist Max alone. He is also loved by Christ that is why he is still alive and ranting. Perhaps something happened to him like that teacher in God is not Dead movie. But if that is the case or not he is in a different realm where you and I belong, we are in his imaginary world called Christianity. He will become old sooner or later and time will come when he will start analyzing himself looking at his past and see his accomplishments or lack of it and realizes he will soon reach the end of his life and will say what now? This can happened in his old age or in his death bed caused by any of the many causes of death now happening in this world, I will pray for him because God loves him too as much as He does to any of us and hopefully he will be given the chance to see the truth before he will breath his last.

  • Concerned catholic

    Well said Theresa!!!

  • barbara

    Athiest Max, how dare you insult us with your blasphemy. You need to be exorcised.

  • Barbara

    The cardinal’s hat? It’s a job. Office manager, garbage collector, cardinal, actor, mayor … it’s a job. Unfortunately, God does not seem to be in it.

  • Barbara

    You are a sad, sick, terrified article, Athiestic Max. Leave this blog and go back to your coven where you belong – instead of your anti-Catholic ravings.

  • Pingback: Cardinal Dolan's St. Patrick's Day Scandal - BigPulpit.com()

  • JBD

    Mr. Cahill, quoting the “French original” is meaningless. The official document is Latin. So spare us your attempt at erudition.

    Invoking the Holy Spirit? That tired old argument without teeth? Please! I thought you “spirit of Vatican II people died with the “spirit of Vatican II”.

    FINALLY, there is no question nor has there ever been a question that the Church welcomes gays and lesbians. Their lifestyle is wholly unwelcome as it is sodomy, and sinful. Even this insane pope hasn’t questioned that.

  • JBD

    Dolan is all about DOLAN!

    He has and has always been an egomaniac doing only what’s good for Dolan. Being traditional served him well under the last two pontificates. Anything goes now.

    He has a psychotic need to be liked and will do ANYTHING to be liked, say ANYTHING to be liked. He must be the center of attention.

    There are many priests who have been snubbed by this wretched man for doing nothing but being good priests.

    Dolan is a pig.

  • @John Milner: It was Sodomites who snuck into the priesthood that raped altar boys and brought shame and scandal to the Holy Church.

    I, as a survivor of priest rape and soul torture, find your comment pure and utter horsehockey. Even the very researcher whom did the John Jay report, would tell you to stop it.

    You’re like that nasty, disgusting, lowlife Bill Donohue, whom claims this is a homosexual and not a pedophile (or hebephile or ephebophile) problem in the Church. Well let me clue you in on something sunshine….

    One of the researchers responsible for a landmark statistical study of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church says that Catholic League president William Donohue “drew an unwarranted conclusion” from her work when he claimed that “most” of the clergy who committed the abuse have been “gay.”

    Explaining that it is an oversimplification to assume to that priests who abuse male victims are gay, Smith said: “The majority of the abusive acts were homosexual in nature. That participation in homosexual acts is not the same as sexual identity as a gay man.”

    As an example, Smith pointed to the case of Marcial Maciel Degollado, a prominent Mexican priest who allegedly abused male children and also allegedly carried on affairs with multiple women. Smith noted that while Maciel allegedly abused boys, most people would not think of him as a gay man.

    “What we are suggesting is that the idea of sexual identity be separated from the problem of sexual abuse,” said Margaret Smith, a researcher from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, which is conducting an independent study of sexual abuse in the priesthood from 1950 up to 2002. “At this point, we do not find a connection between homosexual identity and an increased likelihood of sexual abuse.”

    A second researcher, Karen Terry, also cautioned the bishops against making a correlation between homosexuality in the priesthood and the high incidence of abuse by priests against boys rather than girls — a ratio found to be about 80-20.

    “It’s important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior,” Terry said. “Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.” Terry said factors such as greater access to boys is one reason for the skewed ratio. Smith also raised the analogy of prison populations where homosexual behavior is common even though the prisoners are not necessarily homosexuals, or cultures where men are rigidly segregated from women until adulthood, and homosexual activity is accepted and then ceases after marriage.

    STOP BLAMING HOMOSEXUALS FOR THIS EVIL IN YOUR CHURCH. IT IS IN FACT DEGENERATE PEDOPHILES, HEBEPHILES AND EPHEBOPHILES AND NOT HOMOSEXUALS WHOM ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS EVIL AGAINST US WHEN WE WERE CHILDREN AND TEENS.

  • A lot of hate in these comments. Fundamentalist Catholic and fundamentalist atheist views. Spewing vile comments at each other is wasted breath. Any real humanists or Christians out there?

  • @John Milner: It was Sodomites who snuck into the priesthood that raped altar boys and brought shame and scandal to the Holy Church.

    I, as a survivor of priest rape and soul torture, find your comment pure and utter horsehockey. Even the very researcher whom did the John Jay report, would tell you to stop it.

    You’re like that nasty, disgusting, lowlife Bill Donohue, whom claims this is a homosexual and not a pedophile (or hebephile or ephebophile) problem in the Church. Well let me clue you in on something sunshine….

    One of the researchers responsible for a landmark statistical study of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church says that Catholic League president William Donohue “drew an unwarranted conclusion” from her work when he claimed that “most” of the clergy who committed the abuse have been “gay.”

    Explaining that it is an oversimplification to assume to that priests who abuse male victims are gay, Smith said: “The majority of the abusive acts were homosexual in nature. That participation in homosexual acts is not the same as sexual identity as a gay man.”

    As an example, Smith pointed to the case of Marcial Maciel Degollado, a prominent Mexican priest who allegedly abused male children and also allegedly carried on affairs with multiple women. Smith noted that while Maciel allegedly abused boys, most people would not think of him as a gay man.

    “What we are suggesting is that the idea of sexual identity be separated from the problem of sexual abuse,” said Margaret Smith, a researcher from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, which is conducting an independent study of sexual abuse in the priesthood from 1950 up to 2002. “At this point, we do not find a connection between homosexual identity and an increased likelihood of sexual abuse.”

    A second researcher, Karen Terry, also cautioned the bishops against making a correlation between homosexuality in the priesthood and the high incidence of abuse by priests against boys rather than girls — a ratio found to be about 80-20.

    “It’s important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior,” Terry said. “Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.” Terry said factors such as greater access to boys is one reason for the skewed ratio. Smith also raised the analogy of prison populations where homosexual behavior is common even though the prisoners are not necessarily homosexuals, or cultures where men are rigidly segregated from women until adulthood, and homosexual activity is accepted and then ceases after marriage.

    STOP BLAMING HOMOSEXUALS FOR THIS EVIL IN YOUR CHURCH. IT IS IN FACT DEGENERATE PEDOPHILES, HEBEPHILES AND EPHEBOPHILES AND NOT HOMOSEXUALS WHOM ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS EVIL AGAINST US WHEN WE WERE CHILDREN AND TEENS.

  • Ahhh yes, the Pedophile Pimp Cardinal Timothy Dolan. Let’s see just how nice this low life really is:

    CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN:From failing to report direct admissions from abusive priests, to actively lobbying against reforming statutes of limitations on child sexual abuse cases in Wisconsin. The archbishop’s track record is consistent with the Catholic Church’s record of covering up child sex abuse allegations.

    First we have the case of Priest Franklyn W. Becker. Among the documents submitted in support a complaint presented to the ICC by the Center for Constitutional Rights and Survivors Network for those Abused by Priests, are letters between Dolan and then-Cardinal Ratzinger concerning Father Franklyn Becker.Becker was diagnosed as a pedophile as early as 1983 when serving in Milwaukee and, though the archdiocese of Milwaukee knew he continued to re-offend, Becker was nonetheless allowed to continue to work in several parishes. It was only when Becker was arrested in California in 2003 for the sexual assault of a child that Dolan wrote to Ratzinger requesting that Becker be defrocked.Ratzinger’s office replied that Dolan should inquire whether Becker would voluntarily request his own defrocking rather than be laicized involuntarily by the Vatican.A 2003 letter from then-Milwaukee Archbishop Timothy Dolan shows he was more concerned about the church’s reputation than the actions of an abusive priest. Dolan wrote the letter to then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in May 2003, asking that Becker be defrocked after allegations of repeated sexual abuse of children that dated back to at least 1970. Dolan wrote the letter about two weeks after Becker was arrested in California for an alleged sexual assault there in the 1970s.Dolan, who became Milwaukee’s archbishop in June 2002, wrote that a trial and possible civil lawsuits “make the potential for true scandal very real.” n the letter, Dolan said Becker was diagnosed as an “impulsive pedophile” in 1983.After another allegation, a psychological assessment was again done in 1996 that indicated “the potential for future recurrence of past behavior existed,” according to Dolan’s letter.Dolan became archbishop 11 months before he asked that Becker be defrocked and it took the Vatican another 1 1/2 years to defrock Becker. Claims have been made that Dolan only took action because of Becker’s arrest. Clergy Cases I & III, JCCP 4286 and 4359, June 18, 2007 (Facts concerning former priest Franklyn Becker of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee demonstrates that he has dangerous propensities to harm children. In sworn testimony, Becker testified about his attraction to boys, his interest in the Man/Boy Love Association, his leanings toward being attracted to post pubescent boys and that he gave names of people to the Archdiocese that might come forward with allegations. (Becker’s sworn statement taken August 7, 2006 at pgs. 77, 80, 82, and 87.)).Next we have the case of Harlem pastor Msgr. Wallace A. Harris, Dolan’s handling of child sex abuse cases has not changed since his Milwaukee and St. Louis days. In 2010, Harris, who had been accused of sexually assaulting more than 10 boys, was allowed to step down under a false pretense. Dolan, who by this time was already Archbishop of New York, quietly let him do so without informing the authorities or warning parishioners. More than a year and a half after the fact, the Vatican admonished him to live “a life of prayer and penance.” Due to the statute of limitations in New York, Harris has avoided criminal charges. Harris, a one-time possible candidate for bishop, was accused by an NYPD officer and nine other men of molesting them while they were attending Cathedral Preparatory Seminary. Archbishop Timothy Dolan quietly let Msgr. Wallace A. Harris, resign from his Harlem parish and left the impression that Harris is stepping aside because of alleged health problems. The first man to reveal having been violated by Harris is a former police officer, Eric Crumbley. Crumbley is now a minister and he disclosed his name when he stepped forward.

    Then you have Cardinal Timothy Dolan accused of moving money around to avoid paying on suits: A Wisconsin lawyer representing victims of sexual abuse by Catholic clergy says he suspects that New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan hid $130 million in order to avoid paying molestation settlements. Prior to his present assignment, Dolan was Archbishop of Milwaukee. The lawyer, Jeffrey R. Anderson, who represents clients in 23 lawsuits against the Milwaukee Archdiocese, said $75 million disappeared from the church’s investments in 2005. He said that $55 million more that had previously been unaccounted for appeared in a cemetery trust in 2008, and that the archdiocese claimed that money in that fund was protected by state law and could not be used for payouts. In an interview on Sunday, Mr. Anderson said that the first transfer coincided with a 2005 ruling by the Wisconsin Supreme Court that allowed abuse lawsuits to proceed despite a statute of limitations. He said the second transfer occurred around the time of a similar ruling in 2007. Archbishop Dolan led the Archdiocese of Milwaukee from 2002 to 2009, when he was chosen to lead the Archdiocese of New York.

    Lastly we have proof of Dolans true feelings towards victims and the statue of limitations he fights so hard against changes made to it. When New York sought to end the one year statue of limitations against child sex abuse, Cardinal Dolan cried about it. Dolan explained that he wanted to keep the statute of limitations for child sex abuse victims to one-year, because if the church gets sued, “The perpetrators don’t suffer. There’s no burden on them. What suffers are the services and the ministries of the apostolates that we’re doing now. Because where does the money come from? So the bishops of 30 years ago that allegedly may have reassigned abusers, they don’t suffer. They’re dead. So the people that suffer are those who are being served right now by the church. We feel that’s a terribly unjust burden.” This statement alone shows that Cardinal Timothy Dolan does not care one bit about the suffering of the abused or the unjust burden they carry. This statement shows that Cardinal Timothy Dolan cares more about the suffering and unjust burdens the Roman Catholic Church will face if these statue of limitations are changed so victims can finally seek justice against those who harmed them and those who covered up these crimes.

  • Sounds great to me! A city of parades! I’d rather be stuck behind a parade of people having a wonderful time than a rush-hour traffic jam. Then Irish-Americans could celebrate in Puerto Rican parades, etc. (“Kiss me, I’m German Protestant” buttons.) What a great mash of cultures having a good time.
    Great idea.

  • Now for that disgusting p.o.s. Bill Donohue of the Catholic League.

    You just gotta love that low life p.o.s. Donohue. Always standing up and defending the indefensible, while insulting, denigrating and defaming priest and nun abuse victims and anyone whom stands up to the Unholy Roman Catholic Church of Pedophile Pimps and Priests and the Parishioners whom love having their children raped by them….because you Parishioners sure do not stand up and defend YOUR children whom were raped, but you sure stand up and defend the rapists and the Pedophile Pimps whom knowingly moved these rapists of YOUR children around to protect them….but not the children.

    Bill Donohue, an admitted drunk, whom states that the requirement for employment at the Catholic League is you too have to be a boozer and of course he also advocates having one for the road…

    “We don’t have that problem—being a boozer is a condition of employment.” said Bill Donohue about the Catholic League. Helen Sorrentino of The Alternative Press advises employers to limit office parties to “a few hours.” I manifestly disagree—ours is open-ended and could go on all night. She says to “end the service of alcohol 30 minutes prior to the end the party.” No way—this is not a baseball game where you can’t get a beer after the seventh inning. Indeed, most of us grab a roadie before leaving.

    http://www.catholicleague.org/office-party-rules-to-ignore/

    Bill Donohue, being sued by a priest rape victim when he knowingly lied, slandered and defamed the victim:

    “He says that a priest molested him and three other altar boys back in the early 1980s. But why should we believe a man who only now is coming forward with his tale – he never told a single soul – especially given the fact that he has been implicated in a murder? Thomas never told readers that on the night Mark Trader was murdered about a dozen years ago, Couzens got into a fight with him over a botched drug deal, and although another man was convicted, on appeal it was alleged that Couzens and two other men had ‘motive to commit the murder and the opportunity to do so.’ This is public record, so why the cover up?”

    Couzens’ attorney, Rebecca Randles, told Courthouse News she has no idea where Donohue came up with the drug and murder implications. Randles said in an interview that that to her knowledge Couzens has never been subject to any drug or murder-related charges.

    In the lawsuit, Couzens claims that he reported Trader’s murder in April 1992 to police, after the killer confessed to him. He claims in the lawsuit that he received a commendation from now-Sen. Claire McCaskill for his good citizenship in the murder investigation and trial.

    Donohue ramped up his criticism in another statement on Dec. 8, 2011, speculating on the timing of Couzens’ abuse lawsuit with the emergence of a lawsuit filed earlier that year against the K.C.

    Diocese and priest Shawn Ratigan. That lawsuit claimed the Diocese waited nearly 6 months before reporting child pornography found on Ratigan’s computer.

    “Couzens may be a hero to the Star, but his character is indeed questionable: he was implicated in a murder,” Donohue said in the statement. “Why hasn’t the Star revealed this to its readers? Does it want to ‘silence’ its critics? Why did Couzens wait 30 years before he told his ‘wrenching’ tale? Because the time was ripe to cash in after Fr. Ratigan’s name hit the papers?”

    Ahhh yes, Bill Donohue, whom even stated of me, because I was raped by a priest at the age of 15:

    “If a 15 year old is being messed with by a priest and he does not smack him, that means he not only wanted it, he enjoyed it and he is a homosexual because of it.”

    Bill Donohue, whom was called out by one of the researchers of the John Jay report, the very report he quotes to make his assertions this is a homosexual problem and not a pedophile (or hebephile or ephebophile problem). Even to this day, this nasty, disgusting non-human still says this. Yet on April 2, 2010, one of the researchers of the John Jay report, and other researchers wrote an article for Bill Donohue:….telling him he has it wrong:

    One of the researchers responsible for a landmark statistical study of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church says that Catholic League president William Donohue “drew an unwarranted conclusion” from her work when he claimed that “most” of the clergy who committed the abuse have been “gay.”

    In a March 30 ad published in The New York Times, Donohue described the sex abuse scandal as a “homosexual crisis.” Donohue added: “Eighty percent of the victims of priestly sexual abuse are male and most of them are post-pubescent. While homosexuality does not cause predatory behavior, and most gay priests are not molesters, most of the molesters have been gay.”

    During a March 31 appearance on CNN, Donohue elaborated on his claim, specifically citing a 2004 study produced by researchers at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, which found that 81 percent of the alleged victims of sexual abuse by priests were male. During the CNN segment, Donohue repeated his assertion that “most of the molesters have been gay.”

    But in an interview with Media Matters, Margaret Smith — a John Jay College criminologist who worked on the 2004 study — said that while Donohue “quoted the study’s data correctly,” he “drew an unwarranted conclusion” in asserting that most of the abusers were gay.

    Explaining that it is an oversimplification to assume to that priests who abuse male victims are gay, Smith said: “The majority of the abusive acts were homosexual in nature. That participation in homosexual acts is not the same as sexual identity as a gay man.”

    As an example, Smith pointed to the case of Marcial Maciel Degollado, a prominent Mexican priest who allegedly abused male children and also allegedly carried on affairs with multiple women. Smith noted that while Maciel allegedly abused boys, most people would not think of him as a gay man.

    In a November 18, 2009, Politics Daily column about Smith’s research, David Gibson reported:

    “What we are suggesting is that the idea of sexual identity be separated from the problem of sexual abuse,” said Margaret Smith, a researcher from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, which is conducting an independent study of sexual abuse in the priesthood from 1950 up to 2002. “At this point, we do not find a connection between homosexual identity and an increased likelihood of sexual abuse.”

    A second researcher, Karen Terry, also cautioned the bishops against making a correlation between homosexuality in the priesthood and the high incidence of abuse by priests against boys rather than girls — a ratio found to be about 80-20.

    “It’s important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior,” Terry said. “Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.” Terry said factors such as greater access to boys is one reason for the skewed ratio. Smith also raised the analogy of prison populations where homosexual behavior is common even though the prisoners are not necessarily homosexuals, or cultures where men are rigidly segregated from women until adulthood, and homosexual activity is accepted and then ceases after marriage.

    Such conclusions, moreover, are not unique to analyses of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. As Think Progress noted, Gregory Herek, a psychology professor at the University of California-Davis, analyzed a number of studies and concluded: “The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so.”

  • Really? God is in control?

    Then why cannot God keep control over all the priests of the RCC whom have raped children and teens? Why cannot God keep control over the Pedophile Pimps of the church, like Cardinal Timothy Dolan, Roger Mahony, Donald Wuerl, and the many other disgusting Cardinals, Bishops and Archbishops whom covered up for these rapist priests?

    I guess where it is concerned, at least from the point of view of us victims whom were raped and brutalized by the disgusting pedophile, hebephile and ephebophile priests of the Unholy Roman Catholic Church have another opinion on how much this God of yours has control.

    Funny how not once, did God answer our cries and screams to him to make his disgusting priests stop raping us. Not once has your God punished any of these scummy Pedophile Pimps, and barely any priests whom did rape us have been punished either.

    Not only that, it seems your God enjoys our continued pain and suffering. for if YOUR GOD is in control, then how come he allows his church to use lawyers, paid for I may add by the parishioners putting money in the collection baskets….to deny us justice for the crimes committed against us? Why does your God allow these lawyers to get away with this by using the statue of limitations to defeat us in courts when we seek justice?

    Oh and why does God allow us to commit suicide? Victims of priest rape and nun abuse, and the horrors of such evils as places like Artane, the Magdalene Laundries, the orphanages, where children were treated as slaves, or brutalized beyond belief…..well many of us have in fact committed suicide. I have attempted to kill myself on at least a half a dozen occasions. Somehow I survived those attempts and people tell me there was a reason for my survival of this…to bring to light this evil.

    Yet according to the RCC, those victims of this evil whom committed suicide, are now supposedly burning in hell for it…but of course, in your opinion, God is in control of everything.

    Well let me explain to you why I am an atheist now.

    See God is supposedly all knowing, all seeing and is everywhere. Then this means not only did God know I was going to be raped by one of his ephebophile priests, he watched me being raped. And he did absolutely NOTHING to stop it. Same with oh so many other victims.

    So either God is a disgusting pedophile pervert himself, because he does absolutely nothing to stop these rapes…or he is not real.

    You decide, cause I already made my decision….he may be real, but he is no being I would ever bow down to…seeing he gave not one freaking care about me, why should I even care about him? He is a disgusting pedophile scum in my book and deserves no worship if he is real, only condemnation to that place you all call hell….along with each and every one of the rapists, the Pedophile Pimps and the Parishioners whom so love them all.

  • opheliart

    Arturo (very cool name!),

    You say:

    “Brothers and Sisters in Christ, leave Atheist Max alone. He is also loved by Christ that is why he is still alive and ranting. Perhaps something happened to him like that teacher in God is not Dead movie. But if that is the case or not he is in a different realm where you and I belong, we are in his imaginary world called Christianity. He will become old sooner or later and time will come when he will start analyzing himself looking at his past and see his accomplishments or lack of it and realizes he will soon reach the end of his life and will say what now? This can happened in his old age or in his death bed caused by any of the many causes of death now happening in this world, I will pray for him because God loves him too as much as He does to any of us and hopefully he will be given the chance to see the truth before he will breath his last.”
    *************

    I like Mad Max, why would I leave him “alone” 🙂

    Many would do well to LISTEN to at least some of what he has to say. He is upset, and he has every right to be. This is better than sitting in a pew pretending that the world don’t turn.

    little joke there …

    Peace and Love

  • opheliart

    Frank LaFerriere,

    Thank you for this VITAL information.

    Peace and Love

  • opheliart

    WE hear you, Frank. Thank you for this sharing.

    People:
    It is important that those using Religion (the Bible, their own weak, and more often distorted views in this, even the altering of text) to control, manipulate and silence VOICE, hear what Frank and so many others are saying.

    ROMAN CATHOLICS, and others, What the hell are you thinking? Are you IN HELL that you cannot HEAR these cries? Wake up and smell the stench of money, title, false IDs … containment within your own tombs? I am not saying to forsake that you believe; I am saying that YOU are to be the PROTECTORS AND ADVOCATES OF THE CHILDREN, as these are small. Shame on you, who think you are superior to others by your Religious Laws and decrees …

    Shame on you that you continue to look away. Where are your Good Samaritans? Oh, yes … almost forgot … you called HER the prostitute in John 4. Do ya think you might be missing the message with your holy fathers?

    No peace for you …

  • Why yes…there are real humanist….but we find it hard to fight back against such utter bs….without resorting to their level, because it seems that is the ONLY thing these hate filled Christianists can agree upon.

  • Fr. J

    The Cardinal may find that his new friends will now not take “no” for an answer on any issue. They will demand that they be a part of any parade or event they want whether we like it or not. This is a surrender of religious liberty and we will pay for it.

  • Larry

    Its funny how you all defend Dolan when he is doing something objectively immoral and despicable like hiding money that could be paid as reparations for clergy abuse but all turn on him when he officially does not chose to act like an obnoxious bigot in public.

    Some set of priorities you Christians have.

    Please don’t ever bother to make the claim that your moral thinking comes from Christianity. It is clear there is nothing resembling morality in how you conduct yourselves.

  • Larry

    Soon you may have to associate with them in public and treat them like fellow human beings! OMG!!! Get your fainting couch and clutching pearls.

  • I take it you do not understand the difference between a municipal regulatory agency and a private association with their distinct educational mission. Sorry you’re stupid.

  • opheliart

    Art Deco,

    “I take it you do not understand the difference between a municipal regulatory agency and a private association with their distinct educational mission. Sorry you’re stupid.”

    Educational mission? Are you a Roman Catholic by choice or a misogynist by trade. I have read your posts throughout these articles and have found them synonymous with contempt for women. Why is that, Art Deco? Would this be a result of your education—and the educating of those like you?

  • Larry

    Arturo, could you be more of a patronizing condescending twit if you tried?

    Ignore any point Max made and make yourself feel better with an imaginary “comeuppance” he may have in the future.

    Your “prayer” for Max is really just a veiled insult saying that he is worthy of eternal torment. All because he chooses to disagree with your beliefs. How passive-aggressive.

  • Larry

    When you start to see civility from Christian posters, there might be a chance of seeing civil responses.

    All we see here is a whole bunch of people attacking a Catholic Cardinal because he chose not to engage in discriminatory behavior (for obvious political reasons). He doesn’t hate like you Christian posters so he must be condemned as not truly worthy of the religious office.

    The fact that I have defended a worthless scumbucket like Dolan here shows just how low the road you guys have taken really is.

  • Veronica

    Larry….Who is the bigot? Your true colors seem to come out when someone challanges your labeling of practicing Catholics in NY as ‘insignificant’. And don’t believe everything you read in the ‘liberal’ media.

  • Veronica

    Love the sinner, hate the sin Larry. But God is good, He waits until we are ready to abandon our sin.

  • Veronica

    Larry Personal attacks won’t work. The truth will set you free. Try it, it won’t disappoint. God is good.

  • Veronica

    Larry…Most approved of slavery. My point is the majority can legalize something that is morally wrong and then reverse it. Gay counterfeit unions will be one of them.
    Most people say ….live and let live. Why can’t gays? Why do they have to redefine the natural law and natural marriage. And why can’t they be open to change? And conversion from homosexuality? We are have some form of disordered inclination. But we don’t act on it or we avoid it precisely because it will lead to sin. It’s not easy. No one is saying that. But with God’s help all things are possible.

  • opheliart

    Max! A Catholic! When I read that you had believed for 44 years ( been involved within religion for 44), I wondered where you might have spent your time. Did they boot you out when you asked the tough questions? Two Orthodox priests offered to chrismate me, but I said no.

    One priest even yelled at me: Haven’t you found another church yet?! (because I stopped by to say my goodbyes amidst a real effort by a few to get me out of their parish for some suspicious reason). He did not even give me a chance to speak, but that’s what happens when you share and ask the tough questions. When I called what I thought was a friend to find out why the manic behavior from priest and company, he said:
    I don’t know what to tell you, LT; you asked too many questions. You need to get in good with the priest.

    Later, I wrote a childhood friend (who used to be RC), and is bisexual, and said, “Are you sure you want to hang out with me? I think I have a whole “church” mad at me.” She replied, “According to half the religions of the world, I am going to hell. Bring ’em on.”

    Four parishes later … kicked out, censored, sabotaged, denied … bring ’em on 🙂

    I am with Church.

    Peace

  • Larry

    Veronica, you have trouble with honest presentation of facts. If you are offended by having that pointed out, so be it.

    Most Christians thought slavery was just fine and had no problem with genocide and all sorts of nasty behavior towards others. Your behavior is living proof that Christian beliefs are not synonymous with notions of civil liberties or respect for fellow human beings.

    The great thing about “natural law” is there is no such thing as a clear definition of it. Natural law is whatever the religious speaker wants it to be at the given moment. It is a meaningless term.

    As for redefinition of marriage, that is all the work of people like yourself. Dishonestly claiming that marriage laws and as a legal institution is beholden to your religious views. Making insultingly reductive statements that marriage is solely for biological procreation only. It appears the only people devaluing and degrading marriage are Christians like yourself.

    You have a very skewed version of reality if you think denying civil liberties to people and acting badly towards them in public is an example of “live and let live”. What you are saying is that you want your prejudices and bigotry to have social sanction. You are uncomfortable with being called out on it. I can’t respect that nor should anyone feel the need to.

    You have your views of what God wants and what constitutes sin. Your trouble is you are under the delusion that anyone is compelled to care what they are. All you do is show how religion is a great enabler of malicious sociopathic behavior. God excuses all acts if you pretend they are in his name.

  • Veronica

    Frank….I apologize if you were a victim of the Priest sex abuse scandal. Forgive the Church and those of us who contributed in any way by our silence.
    I will not, however, accept your premise that it wasn’t primarily a homosexual sex abuse scandal. The first John Jay Report got it right before the gay sypathizers bullied the authors of the second investigation and report and revised it to whitewash it. It was homosexual abuse of teenagers and young men.
    If it this wasn’t true why did Pope Benedict order a directive prohibiting men with deep seated homosexual tendencies from entering the Priesthood?

  • Larry

    Veronica, I am not the one who wants to see a group of people ostracized under color of law nor screams bloody murder if they appear in public. That is all you.

    No I don’t have to be tolerant of your intolerance. 🙂

    The population of people in NYC who practice your brand of Catholicism is insignificant. You just don’t have the numbers for anyone in a political position to consider relevant. That is just a presentation of facts. Reality is biased against you.

  • Larry

    Which in reality is hate the person and claim you are “loving” them.

    There is nothing more mendacious that Christian love of “thine enemies” or of “thy neighbor”.

  • Larry

    You speak for the Church? Since when?

    The fact that you have the nerve to speak down to a victim of clerical abuse in such a patently dishonest manner shows a great deal of nerve. Who the hell are you to degrade and minimize Frank LaFerriere’s personal experiences?

    You have some screwed up set of priorities.

    The majority of Catholics here are more willing to make excuses for deliberate and indelible harm to others. Yet if one of them decides not to deliberately antagonize and discriminate against gays, you start a lynch mob.

  • Veronica

    Larry…Yes, most people thought slavery was fine but didn’t Christians end it? But even the legality of slavery was eventually ended as will this undemocratic judicial tyrany of counterfeit gay marriage being forced on America.

    Natural law is what it is….So let’s see if two can marry, what’s to prevent three or a father and a daughter or a man and a boy? Who are we to discriminate against those unions?

    Personal attacks now. No rebuttal. Love the sinner, hate the sin. The truth will set you free.

  • Veronica

    Those who call others ‘intolerant’ turn out to be…guess what…intolerant themselves!
    I’m tolerant of sinners but not of sin. I’m one of them, a sinner, so therefore I want to be treated with tolerance. But I don’t want someone to be tolerant of my sin if it causes me to lose my soul! Get it!

  • Veronica

    Larry… How dare you claim to know what I am involved in or whether I have helped vicitms of abuse. Insensitive to the victims. Who is more insensitive..those who deny the cause and let it continure or those expose the evil so that it can be stopped? You seem bent on personal attacks. Lynch mob..Please…

  • Larry

    Not your kind of Christian. The ones who hold to the book as an excuse to treat others badly.

    You are simply trying to take credit for people who you have been spending the last few days pillorying. Those who chose to go outside of strict Biblical interpretations to do something not objectively malicious and harmful to others.

    Your love of democracy evidently only extends to the point where it agrees with your views. When it differs, you make excuses and attacks on the process. Talk of judicial tyranny is especially dishonest and ignorant concerning a state which affirmatively enabled gay marriage through the legislative process.

    Natural law is, essentially declaring a statement and expecting it to be accepted on stipulation. It means you are just too lazy to support a position in a reasonable manner.

    “what’s to prevent three or a father and a daughter or a man and a boy?”

    Rational and secular purposes which make such unions against public policy. Something you do not have for gay marriage. Which happens to be perfectly legal in New York State.

    You hate people and hate people who do not share your hatred. There is no loving of the “sinner”. There is no truth in what you say either.

  • Veronica

    Wow! All the haters, bigots and fascist gays have infiltrated this site.

  • Veronica

    Not to mention the revisionist history, personal attacks and vicious lies. Satan’s associates maybe….

  • Larry

    Your insensitivity was apparent by your response to Frank LaFerriere’s post. It told me everything I care to know about you.

    If you think describing your own behavior is a personal attack then maybe you should take a closer look at what you are saying.

  • Veronica

    Larry…You’re in denial.

  • Veronica

    Which in reality is hate the person and claim you are “loving” them……
    You’re confused. When you love someone you want them to be happy. Happiness cann’t be attained when you’re engaged in ‘sin’ and in jeopardy of losing your soul.

  • opheliart

    My-my, Veronica … a deluge cometh your way. The great exodus will begin … flight into the Orthodox churches where it will not go well. Why? Because you thought YOU were God.

    🙂

    Just having a wee bit of fun.

  • Helen

    @Atheist Max
    Dear Max – the Bible is a collection of books of recorded spiritual direction for our human nature. It has to studied thoroughly and not taken out of context as it is mostly done, even by well meaning Christians. God created human beings and gifted them with FREE WILL which He does not manipulate. He has given us laws to live by based on LOVE for He is LOVE. The definition for LOVE is given in 1 Corthinian: 13:4 God wants us to live with one another with unconditional Love. Due to the fall of man through sin, mankind’s ability to discern good from bad was also impaired.

    Like Adam and Eve man continues to make decisions without seeking God’s help in their discernment process which opens the door for Satan to confuse mankind with half truths. God gave us a set of ten simple rules… the first three pertains to God… Who commands us to call on Him by putting Him first in all things… the remaining seven pertains to human relationships and how we can avoid harm we can cause one another. We can only effectively follow those commandments if we follow the definition of Love given in 1 Cor 13:4 radically – without which we can err.

    I read a book on the saints: St. Gertrude the Great. On one of her meditations she realized the path to God is the same for every individual – the circumstances may differ – but our spiritual formation will be the same. So the different characters in the Bible show us the different spiritual levels we have to undergo to gain spiritual maturity which is only found in Jesus and Mary.

    Many people are stuck at the Adam & Eve level – thinking they can do all things on their own. However we are called to the level of faith as that of Abraham – who while had great faith in God was still imperfect in that he believing that he and his wife would have a son in their old age. Nonetheless, despite this imperfection, he worked on his lack of faith to perfect it to put God first. He was tested beyond human endurance when he was asked to sacrifice His only son Isaac to God. Now this passage in the Bible has been taken out of context by atheists saying God is a jealous and harsh God. They overlook the fact that God was only testing Abraham’s level of faith in God. They fail to see how God has purified Abraham’s level of faith which God does with all of us.

    The rationale for this testing is to help us realize that despite our weakness, the God who created us, sees great potential in us and will walk just as He did with Adam in the Garden of Eden. Only through the tests in life, will we be able to encounter God. We all know Life is a paradox. We cannot know happiness if we had not experienced sadness, etc. It is only in our weakness can we experience God’s strength. We also can gain Satan’s strength by taking the easy way which will ultimately lead to our eternal damnation.

    Since the fall of man, evil has entered our lives and there is also the presence of great evil through souls who have sold themselves unknowingly to Satan. These souls can be salvaged by God who wants to us as co-redemptors in the work of salvation of souls. That is why Jesus said to His followers, if you wish to follow Me, you must pick up your cross daily and follow Me. It is through exemplary living in the presence of God that we can convert others. We are also called to correct our fellow human beings but in a charitable way… not through insults or name-calling. As followers of Christ if we do not fraternally correct others with love, God will hold His followers responsible for the loss of the soul. It is found in the Book of Ezekiel.

    All Christians genuinely fear the loss of souls and most get paralyzed by that fear and that is projected in their speech and presentations. That happens because they fail to call on God to help temper their speech and allow the Holy Spirit to guide in their evangelical efforts. So they come out looking like bigots when actually they are not. God is pretty clear in defining what God considers good and what He considers bad… which are nothing but good acts perverted by Satan and made to look good.

    God has gifted us with intelligence to seek the truth. If we do that, He will increase His gifts of wisdom and understanding, but we must first seek them.

    We must remember that since God created us for a purpose, He knows us inside out… it would then behoove us to discover our potential by aligning our will with God’s so He can provide with the help we need to regain the perfection He created man with before sin entered.

    From the Book of Ezekiel regarding evangelization about God’s justice;

    33 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 O Mortal, speak to your people and say to them, If I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take one of their number as their sentinel; 3 and if the sentinel sees the sword coming upon the land and blows the trumpet and warns the people; 4 then if any who hear the sound of the trumpet do not take warning, and the sword comes and takes them away, their blood shall be upon their own heads. 5 They heard the sound of the trumpet and did not take warning; their blood shall be upon themselves. But if they had taken warning, they would have saved their lives. 6 But if the sentinel sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any of them, they are taken away in their iniquity, but their blood I will require at the sentinel’s hand.

    What the above passage means that God is ultimately in control of Justice and will destroy evil. We, His followers are to study God’s ways and inform those going along the right path in a charitable way for we do not, we the followers will be held responsible for the loss of the souls who took the wrong path.

    However if we have warned people of the dire consequences then we are relieved.

    So Atheist Max you have been informed through this post, to endeavor to learn of God’s way. It will be normal to resent God’s way and feel disgust. It is difficult for us humans, but if we humbly ask God for His assistance to help us see the light, He will not fail us. Look to God for your answers.. not to your fellow man as the latter does not possess infinite knowledge. God will not mind your anger against God and will allow you to test His goodness… for He is waiting for you to open a dialogue with Him. He is an awesome God.

    We Christians are not icons of graces though we are practicing to be such. We have to remember we can only achieve such through continual request to God for such graces to transform ourselves and then we must radically examine our conscience daily to see if through our actions we have served God in our neighbor or not.

    Pax Christi

  • grace

    If its a dumb parade… why would the gays want to be in it?

  • grace

    …all those who haven’t read it, please do…. it will give you and idea of what we are dealing with in these times…

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3023834/posts

    “The Gay Manifesto”
    “We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity,….”

    (First Published in Gay Community News, Feb. 15-21, 1987 and also put into the Congressional Record. Author – Michael Swift)

  • grace

    WISDOM GIVES A WARNING
    PROVERBS 1:20-33
    20 Wisdom cries aloud in the street,
    in the open squares she raises her voice;
    21 Down the crowded ways she calls out,
    at the city gates she utters her words:
    22 “How long, you naive ones, will you love naivete?,
    23 How long will you turn away at my reproof?
    [The arrogant delight in their arrogance,
    and fools hate knowledge.]
    Lo! I will pour out to you my spirit,
    I will acquaint you with my words:
    24”Because I called and you refused,
    extended my hand and no one took notice;
    25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
    and my reproof you ignored—
    26 I, in my turn, I will laugh at your doom;
    will mock when terror overtakes you;
    27 When terror comes upon you like a storm,
    and your doom approaches like a whirlwind;
    when distress and anguish befall you.’
    28 Then they will call me, but I will not answer;
    they will seek me, but will not find me,
    29 Because they hated knowledge,
    and the fear of the LORD they did not choose.
    30 They ignored my counsel,
    they spurned all my reproof;
    31 Well, then, they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
    and with their own devices be glutted.
    32 For the straying of the naive kills them,
    the smugness of fools destroys them.

  • grace

    “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand”
    Ezekiel 3:18

  • Aodhan Richardson

    Your Eminence, when you have conservative Catholics questioning and disagreeing with what you are doing, that’s a sign that you’re doing the right thing. God bless…

  • Mon

    @Atheist

    You are an idiot and think you are devious in the spreading of lies about the Catholic Church, but you are simply deceitful. It is a pathetic attempt to twist sacred scripture so as to defend your choice of deviant sexual habits as if it were a lifestyle worthy of praise. The other pathetic attempt at deceit is to portray the group, that calls out sodomy and fornication as a sin, as somehow evil is a shameful ploy worthy of your Father Satan.
    Your Father has been working hard behind the scenes with useful idiots like yourself, to depict anything traditional as “primitive superstitious nonsense”, and any new way the cultural wind “blows” as something “humanizing”, and good.
    Wake up to who the real enemy is.

  • Larry

    Freerepublic.com?

    Really?

    That is akin to referencing articles on Stormfront.org about the Pro-Israel lobby.

    Hardly a source people are going to take seriously.

  • Larry

    Veronica, you don’t want people happy. You want to despise them openly and avoid social sanction for doing so. You are a nasty-minded, malicious, mendacious, unpleasant person. If your behavior is a sing of Christian love, the world can do without it.

  • opheliart

    Frank, you say:
    Ahhh yes, Bill Donohue, whom even stated of me, because I was raped by a priest at the age of 15:

    “If a 15 year old is being messed with by a priest and he does not smack him, that means he not only wanted it, he enjoyed it and he is a homosexual because of it.”

    *************
    This man Donohue needs to be brought out and thoroughly investigated. His statement shows an unstable mindset. He is not well. I find it difficult to believe he has been such a strong figurehead in the RCC. Frank, had you been a 15-year-old FEMALE, what would he have said? Do you think he would have gotten away with this statement? What are these people that have looked to this man for any sort of guidance or authority? He is a scandal—it is reckless and dangerous to have given this man so much positioning.

    THE WORLD WILL KNOW OF THIS ATROCITY.

    Frank, I sense fear in why you did not “smack” the abuser. You were petrified. You could not act. You could not breathe. You could not think for the fear that consumed you. Male or female, this statement by Donohue is CRIMINAL. Donohue, as well as Dolan, is an offense to society, and I sense both have done terrible, terrible things.

    I am sorry for what has been done to you. And what is almost equally criminal is that the Roman Catholics, those still attending mass, continue to trust that their new pope and his men have things under control—that they have taken care of the sexual abuse problems. I know this because I spoke to one just this evening. I poured out as much as I could to see her reaction, and she seemed unsure. The lay people have been fooled. They live in ignorance of their own leadership. I was astounded at how uninformed this Catholic is. When I explained Cardinal Pell’s position, and recent comments, she seemed not to understand her own place in this. She, like so many, PAY for men and women to appear holy— “above” everyone else, which DOES NOT CHALLENGE THEM TO BECOME HOLY—to strive for Peace. For if they were to strive for this, they would go through the necessary witnessing of CALLING OUT THE HYPOCRISY AND INJUSTICES WITHIN THEIR OWN CARRIAGE. They do not sit idle waiting for others to do the work. There is fever in the avarice. It burns the heart and sends it to the front of the class to be heard! ONE DOES NOT SLEEP WHEN THERE IS EVIL IN THE RANKS AND PREYING ON THE YOUTH, and the weak, the small … the wounded. This is what it means to be a warrior.

    These members, along with their clergy, have helped create this culture of “untouchable” gods. They have built a world of elevated ego and in the process diminished the WORTH of others, others whose voice could have, should have been heard. This is a serious offense, and it is time for it to change.

  • Redd Visits

    I love Atheist Max. He tells the truth and he makes people think.
    A Max keep up the good work. Reading these other posts is like going back to Sunday school and being whipped by the church lady.

  • opheliart

    Helen, you say:

    “I read a book on the saints: St. Gertrude the Great. On one of her meditations she realized the path to God is the same for every individual – the circumstances may differ – but our spiritual formation will be the same. So the different characters in the Bible show us the different spiritual levels we have to undergo to gain spiritual maturity which is only found in Jesus and Mary.”

    Please clarify this Mary and this Jesus? The Roman Catholic IMMACULATE Mary? A Jesus who never turned over the tables in places like your vestibules, or spoke out on hypocrisy? You turned Mary into a whore by NOT GIVING HER CHOICE—by selling and selling and selling her through your Religious Institution. You made her hollow and irresolute. She was a woman having given birth! Spirit filtered through HUMAN hands, for how else could any one go through that process if you have painted Mary perfect before the journey had even begun? You contradict your own words! And then place those high on pedestals calling THEM holy who have never even done what SHE had done—given birth and mothered a child. Put away the things of a child and UNDERSTAND how it is that Mary got pregnant. Strive in gnosis and move toward Spiritual Maturity. And Jesus … that figure nailed to your crosses, whipped, speared and dripping with blood … is this imagery any different from watching horrific murders in video and film? Do you allow your children to feed there? Is this an acceptable message to the children? I fear you have denied THE CHRIST by these and other misconceptions instituted by your holy fathers … and the doctors of your institution.

    And people wonder why history repeats …

  • ALl4HIm

    Well stated!

  • Veronica

    Larry…You’re so full of hate. Open your heart to the truth and it will set you free.

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  • Eileen

    You are right, Atheist Max. Good Catholics should refuse to march or even watch the celebration of satan. Ultimately, the parade should be cancelled and Cardinal Dolan should be banished to an obscure back room at the Vatican to engage in a silent retreat.

  • lettruthspeak

    Angry much? I see we have another tolerant lefty stuck on stupid. The whole point of Christian faith is to follow the doctrine. Just because you don’t like them you have your little hissy fit about how big and bad religious people are. Could it not be more hypocritical of you to quote a line from the Bible to support your attitude, when you obviously think the Bible is rubbish. Hopefully you will grow up one day, and unchain yourself from your ridiculously childish opinions which don’t amount to a hill of beans. The sodomites have their parade, but as usual with their infantile behavior, that isn’t good enough. They have to horn in on other parades probably because the only attention they garner from their own is from like-minded dim bulbs such as themselves. Here is wisdom, deal with it.

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  • Charles Dixon

    Catholicism has started down the road to its final destination: hysterical irrelevance. All this shouting about tradition and conservatism is just the latest effort to attempt to shift the focus from the moral morass that is the reality of the church today. God is not coming to smite anyone. Whether God exists is secondary to the hatred that spews forth from those who claim to believe in him/her. Your church is shrinking by the year. If it wasn’t for the influx of Latin American immigrants into the country your numbers would be much smaller. You all said at one point that a smaller but more Fascist church was to your liking. I hope that is what happens, that more churches close, that fewer attend services and you become smaller and tinier and more impotent every year. There was a day when I said that at least the Catholics do much good through social services and catholic charities. Now, I say we can take care of that in other ways. The Catholics can shrink into their hate-filled cocoons and revel in the madness of your own theology of superstition and poison.

  • Nancy Valle

    And who do you think you are, and a ho hum to you. Just one of the crowd

  • steve Karper

    we ddntt redefine marriage; Str8s can still get married. We expanded access to it, as we did in 1867 for Balck american and in 1967 for Inter-racial couples

    To the Howls of people like you who claimed they could no longer protect the sanctity of the white race

  • steve Karper

    Jesus was a jewish rabbi with a couple good ideas eg Love thy neighbor and upset the tables of the money changers at the temple gates

    the aholes who gave us the great depression, the great recession etc

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