November 5, 2014

Election night was a long one for atheist voters

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A "Vote Here" sign on display in front of Westwood City Hall on Nov. 4, 2014, in Westwood, Kan. Religion News Service photo by Sally Morrow

A "Vote Here" sign on display in front of Westwood City Hall on Nov. 4, 2014, in Westwood, Kan. Religion News Service photo by Sally Morrow

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(RNS) Election night was a mixed bag for atheists, but they remain optimistic a new website for atheist voters will grow and gain voters' support.

  • Thanks for this writeup focusing on the secular community’s involvement in this election. You may want to clarify that organizations like American Atheists and the Secular Coalition for America cannot and do not endorse or fund candidates. (Your use of the word “support” here may lead some to draw the wrong conclusion.) At the Secular Majority, a volunteer, grassroots network, we did endorse several candidates including Daniel Moran. We’re disappointed he and other endorsees like Wendy Davis lost, but determined to come back fighting in 2016. Our mission is to endorse and promote any candidate of any party, any faith or none, who supports our platform, and whose state can assemble a Secular Majority team. All Americans benefit from a religiously neutral government.

  • Mark

    Isn’t the Secular Coalition a 501(c)(4)? They can endorse if they want to (but I didn’t see them endorse anyone). Totally right about American Atheists though. I also don’t recall seeing them endorse anyone. Freethought Equality Fund PAC did, though.

  • Fran

    I’m a theocrat, meaning I support God’s kingdom or heavenly government as the ONLY hope of government for mankind on earth, and not any of man’s imperfect, selfish and greedy governments.

    That also means that I don’t get involved in any politics or worldly conflicts (wars) at all, so “voting day” was a regular day for me and I did not go to the polls.

    God’s kingdom or government will soon put an end to all the problems we now face, including all wicked ones (Psalm 37:10,11), all corrupt governments (Daniel 2:44), even sickness, disease, old age and death (Revelation 21:1-4).

    That rule by God’s government will be righteous, loving and just, and even the animal kingdom will be at peace with one another (imagine petting tigers and lions and bears without any fear!) (Isaiah 11:1-9)

    That government is the only one I have “voted” for in the past and will continue to vote and stand up for, since it is the BEST possible rule there is!

  • George

    Ok. You just keep waiting on magic to fix everything. Let us know how that works out….

  • Stan

    And yet, you have not one tiny shred of proof that any of this is true.

  • Mark – Yes, they are a c4, meaning they have unlimited lobbying capability (unlike a c3), but cannot endorse candidates (unlike a PAC). I’m positive of this — I was involved in the founding of the SCA and served on their board for a number of years.

  • Steven LOWE

    Fran: The tooth fairy will visit you tonight. even if you haven’t pulled any teeth.

  • Fran

    George,

    It is man who keeps waving his “wish” flag, hoping to make things work out!

    But as the wise man, Solomon, once uttered, “… man has dominated over man to his injury.” (Ecclesiastes 8:9).

    The psalmist also gave us these words of wisdom: “Do not put your trust in princes nor the son of man in whom no salvation belongs.” (Psalm 146:3).

    The BIG difference between God and man in providing things to us humans is that (1) God has intense love for mankind; (2) God has the power to accomplish all the wonderful blessings cited above and he never lies (Titus 1:2); (3) Man does not have (1) and (2) above and continually lies.

    So take your pick.

  • Fran

    Stephen,

    Neither the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, nor the Easter bunny exist, but a very loving, creative and merciful God does! 😀

  • MarkB

    Fran, it’s a good thing for you that the delusion you suffer from isn’t malicious, otherwise your online time would be about 30 minutes a week, monitored.

    The only way you’ll see that fantasy government is if the Constitution is shredded and discarded — which will be MY signal to emigrate.

    Question: if your ‘God’ is so perfect, why did ‘He’ establish slavery in Lev. 25:44-46? (And don’t tell me ‘indentured service’, that’s Lev. 25:39-43)

  • 501(c)(4)s can and do endorse. The Woods campaign received endorsements from several (c)(4)s, including NARAL and the Secular Coalition for Arizona. SC America does not offer endorsements and American Atheists is a (c)(3), which can’t endorse. American Atheists was supportive of candidates being open about their nontheism, but didn’t offer resources or endorsements.

  • Fran

    Patrick,

    True Christisns are hated and persecuted worldwide, just as Jesus was when he was on earth (John 15:17-25); and it will certainly increase as time goes on…we’re used to it.

    Jesus says to love those persecuting us, and I hope and wish the best for you in life.

  • Eric Yantz

    The good news is that we are in the age of reason, where kids have access to the internet and a vast amount of information to make up their own minds about religion. The days of parents sheltering their kids from reality is almost impossible, short of keeping them in the home 24/7. Atheism is quickly rising and belief in superstition, aka religion, is quickly dwindling. Some say in a single generation religion could be almost gone. Thank goodness. The fact that there are atheists openly running is a win.

  • Tony

    Which God and how do you know, Fran?

  • Tony

    I expected a few Bible verses to be spewed here, so I’m not that surprised. I hope I live long enough to see our country grow up and strip the baggage of religion. Christianity’s grip on our government is disgracefully crippling. It’s mind-numbing to think how much could be accomplished. What a burden…

  • Steve

    So Fran, how do you feel about LGBT community, living without equal civil rights. Do you “love the sinner, hate the sin”. Or do you actually believe in science which proves they are born the way they are. If you judge, then your previous posts are null & void. Acceptance and freedom is what human beings deserve. Not tolerance. Not love them, hate the “sin” whatever that may be that you imagine. I find the bible full of lies. First misogyny is blaming Eve for downfall of man. Right off, the men write in misogynistic way. Women being property is love? I have to agree with Patrick’s succinct words. I could give a hoot if you hope, wish for the best. You are as unbelievable as that picked over badly translated antique book. Why did you ignore the slavery question? Be quiet as your book says to be. Follow your book. You are to be seen and not heard.

  • Tony

    Haha you should try being an atheist, Fran. Poor you.

    Meanwhile, other groups suffer terribly simply because of their race or sexual orientation, in the name of Christianity.

  • Terry

    Fran,
    I apologize for the atheist/agnostic community that is in tolerant of your views. I do not think anyone should be persecuted for their beliefs especially when they do no harm… Oh wait a minute your beliefs are harmful because they retard our society’s forward movement to a greater good. Please keep your passages to yourself. You are damaging my child’s future.

  • Has the law changed, then, Serah? Because that was not the legal advice we got during SCA’s founding or when I was on its board. At one point an Executive Director was told to be careful about emphasizing past associations with the Democratic Party because it would make SCA appear partisan.

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  • There are so many millions of Atheists now.
    More of us are leaving religion every day.

    Eventually, the political system will have no other option but to recognize us.
    But full normalcy may be 10 years away.

    ___
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity and the Separation of Church and State

  • Hey leave her be. She wants to be uninvolved in the real world like her church fathers have programmed her then keep it that way. Additionally, it also means her opinions mean zilch in the real world of politics as well. Carry on to other posts.

  • Jay

    Stan, you are incorrect that there is no proof of this. Information in the Bible has been confirmed on hundreds of different occasions through archaeological evidence. In addition, prophecies made in the Bible thousands of years before they actually occurred provide additional proof of the evidence of God’s abilities. Some of these prophecies continue today thousands of years after they were made in writing. The evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ can be found not only in the fact that he revealed himself to thousands of people after his resurrection, but also in the fact that the disciples who had previously denied knowing Christ to save themselves changed their tune and professed the reality of his resurrection at their own peril.

  • Jay

    God did not establish slavery. He gives man free will to make decisions on their own. If man abuses this right, how can we blame God?

  • @Jay,

    “God did not establish slavery. He gives man free will to make decisions on their own.”

    You are not entitled to make up your own facts:

    God Commands Slavery
    “You shall purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you…also the children… You may make them your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.” (Leviticus 25:44-46)

    ___
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity and The Separation of Church and State
    Attacking religious claims while trying to be nice to believers.

  • frank

    If I were a atheists I wood t worry about one long night. I’d be more concerned about the very long, unending eternity I will be facing.

  • Marius Potgieter

    Fran, when you admit that “… (you) did not go to the polls”, you unknowingly (or intentionally?) voted FOR the atheist candidate, not for the ‘Theocracy’ that you apparently promote.
    As a Christian (and a non-citizen of the USA – I live in South Africa) I find your particular method for promoting God’s kingdom particularly difficult to understand as there is absolutely NO Biblical grounds for such an approach. When Jesus was ‘coaxed’ into a situation where the politics of the day tried desperately to get Him to admit that He was the “King” (i.e. ‘competition/threat’ for the Roman Procurator who ruled over Palestine then), His reply was “My Kingdom is not of this world”. I would much rather side with Jesus’ teaching than with the opinion of any human being.

    There is not a single example in the history of the whole world where a ‘Theocracy” has served any positive purpose. God’s Kingdom is a promise that we yearn for in the AFTERLIFE, not in this temporary life. By removing yourself from the realities of this life (e.g. by shunning things like politics/voting), you effectively cast a vote AGAINST what you claim to want to protect/promote. Our role in THIS life is to live a fruitful life, founded on God’s will, not ours.

    I think you are serious about your faith in our Saviour, but your comments only served to fan the flames of secularism (atheism in particular) – just look at the baseless (and pretty stupid, frankly) responses from people who think they are ‘clever’, but who have no idea who God is, nor do they seem to do anything to find out what Christianity is really about, all singing from Dawkins et al’s ‘hymn sheet’ – presenting absolutely NOTHING new, simply echoing what Epicurus exclaimed around 300 BC – that was long before Jesus came onto the scene, and it should also be noted that he was a Greek philosopher who was talking about the gods of Greek mythology! The ‘brights’ are not so bright after all, are they?

    I sit here in South Africa as a keen observer of what is happening now in American politics, especially looking forward to the 2016 election results in your great country. My concern is not about the atheists – I am much more concerned about (my perception, I admit) the “Christians” in American politics. I am talking about those politicians who always end speeches with “God bless America!” and then they carry on living less-than-attractive lives.

    I am silently hoping that more Americans will spend time on investigating the candidates that they are thinking of possibly supporting. Candidates are prominent people who are in the limelight – they are easy to Google and see what informed opinion says about them!

    Don’t pay any attention to people like George, Stan, Steven Lowe and others – they are not thinkers, they are mere puppets in the hands of non-contributors to the well being of the human condition. But also, don’t keep on feeding them with opportunities to comment by using ‘sound bites’ and clichés.

    Lastly, Plato is credited for having said ‘Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something’ – wise words, indeed!

  • SparksinTexas

    Don’t feed the trolls. Just thank her for not voting and move on.

  • Eric Mival

    Was it a Christian or an atheist who stopped slavery in its tracks?

  • Religion’s End
  • Andrew

    I really do wish more people like you who have imaginary friends didn’t vote. Please persuade everyone you know who shares your belief in imaginary friends to vote only for the government of god.

  • Fran

    Max,

    All of man’s political systems will be destroyed by God’s kingdom or heavenly government (Daniel 2:44) in the near future, so you won’t have to put up with them for much longer! 😀 Then we will know “true” peace, humanity and security.

  • Fran

    Terry,

    So you are willing to donate to your child trillions of dollars of debt which his government has incurred, when God’s kingdom will put an end to all corrupt political, economical and false religious systems?

    And when he actually grows up, he may feel compelled to go to war to fight and kill all terrorists so his family can feel safe; when God’s kingdom will put an end to all wicked ones/terrorists (Psalm 37:10,11), so he never has to worry about them or if they will be kidnapped or raped, so common in our world today.

    Your child will still get sick at times, still get old and eventually die of old age, when God’s kingdom will put an end to all sickness, old age and even death (Revelation 21:1-4). We now have to worry about the Ebola virus. Your child can live forever on a paradise earth and learn about all the plants, animals, oceans, etc., to his/her heart’s content.

    In the past 100 years, humans have destroyed the wild tiger population worldwide with only about 3,200 remaining (yes, man is making such major improvements on his own!); but God’s kingdom is going to make the animals at peace with each other so the lion will eat straw like the cow, your child can play with a lion and tiger and even hold a cobra without fear (Isaiah 11:6-9).

    Man has so polluted the earth, water sources (oil spills, pesticide, etc.), that we don’t really know what we are eating or drinking; but God promises to bring to ruin those ruining the earth (Revelation 11:18), and cleanse the entire earth of all pollution.

    So yes, it is so obvious that man cares SO MUCH about his home, his fellowman (with wars and everything), as well as everything else on it, since he’s doing such a GREAT job of it!

    I have a daughter who is married, age 29, and just gave birth to her first child…so, yes, I want the best for her and her family! I want to still be young when (and if) her son gets married and not frail and 90 years old, walking with my cane!

    I have known and seen enough of “man’s history” during my lifetime (being 60), and it has progressively gotten worse, not better, even in spite of technology and medical advancements. People still need to get hip and knee replacements, take pills, get flu shots and combat all forms of cancer! God’s kingdom will put an end to the source of all these problems, and not just put a “bandaid” on it… which is what man will continue to do.

    I wish the best for you and your family, Terry, as well as the rest of the “human family” on this planet; but it will not and cannot come from imperfect man, who can only continually make mistakes; just from a perfect and loving God, who doesn’t want us to continue to live this “phony, short-term” life!

  • Fran

    MarkB,

    As soon as I get home tonite, I will provide you with the information you requested… It will be lengthy! 😀

  • Billysees

    @ Atheist Max

    “Eventually, the political system will have no other option but to recognize us.”

    Agree. But I think it would be better for atheists to ‘represent something’ rather than be known for ‘not believing in something’.

    Check out these great things to represent or believe in —

    1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors

    2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_scientific_discoveries

    3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_discoveries

    I’d be proud to have my name mentioned in any of those categories.

  • Jack

    I’ve heard George Will is an atheist, and it’s obvious he was quite happy with the election results.

    Apparently not all atheists see atheism as their primary identity.

  • Jack

    What do you mean by “recognizing” you, Max?

    Do you want a special quota system for atheists?

    Should we set aside a certain percentage of seats in graduate or professional schools for you?

    What you’re saying doesn’t make sense.

  • Jack

    Fran, how do you square your refusal to support human government with the apostle Paul’s claim in Romans 13 that it’s a God-ordained institution?

  • Jack

    Not so fast, Eric Yantz. Radical secularism opposes theocracy but leads to the opposite extreme of totalitarianism. And when it does, in places like China, the strongest supporters of democracy and human rights are Bible-affirming Christians. And it’s precisely through the Internet and information revolutions that this faith-based message of freedom is being spread.

    And there is nothing “superstitious” about it. Rather, it pulls down the stunningly naïve views of Marxism about the human condition, as well as Marxism’s tragically cynical rejection of human dignity and worth, beliefs that are inseparable from the Biblical notion that people are image-bearers of God, but image-bearers who are frail, fragile, and not perfectible.

    Meanwhile, through the power of the Internet, kids are seeing the pro-secularist positions on issues like abortion to be the unscientific rubbish they have always been. This has led young adults today to favor the pro-life over the pro-choice position on abortion. Once they see ultrasound, it’s over….

  • Jack

    There is no “grip on government”….what you dislike is that the majority of Americans happen to hold to a religious world view of some sort. You can’t wrap your mind around the fact that modernization does not inevitably lead to secularization. Part of the reason it doesn’t is that Biblically-based religion is what set into motion the very forces that led to modernization and continue driving those forces. This is true not just in America, but in places like China, the world’s most populous nation, where radical secularist (Marxist, in this instance) opposition to liberal democracy is countered by Christian support for same.

  • Fran

    MarkB,

    In response to your question as to why God established slavery, here is my response (note: this will be lengthy):

    Love of neighbor is one of the fundamental teachings of the Bible. Love, however, is diametrically opposed to the concept of oppressive slavery. Therefore, some people are puzzled by mention of slavery in the Bible.

    In ancient times, God allowed his people to own slaves (Genesis 14:14,15). Even in the days of the apostles, some Christians were slaves (Philemon 15,16). Does this mean that the Bible condones slavery?

    By the time the Bible began to be written, humans had already established social systems that conflicted with godly principles. While some practices involved were condemned in his written Law, God chose to tolerate others, such as slavery.

    Regarding the social structure of the ancient nation of Israel, the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia states:

    “It was meant to function as a brotherhood in which, ideally, there were no poor (and there was) no exploitation of widows, waifs or orphans.”

    Therefore, more than just allowing an already established social and economic structure, God’s Law regulated slavery so that, if applicable, slaves would be treated in a humane and loving manner.

    Consider the following regulations included in the Law given through Moses:

    (1). Kidnapping a man and then selling him as a slave was punishable by death (Exodus 21:16). However, if, despite all provisions made to prevent poverty, an Israelite found himself deeply in debt, perhaps as a result of mismanagement, he could sell himself as a slave. In some cases, he might even be able to earn a surplus, by which he could redeem himself (Leviticus 25:47-52).

    (2). This was NOT the oppressive kind of slavery that has been common in many lands through the ages, even in the US before the Civil War. Leviticus 25:39,40 says:

    “In case your brother grows poor alongside you and he has to sell himself to you, you must not use him as a worker in slavish service. He should prove to be with you as a hired laborer, like a settler.”

    So this was a loving provision to care for Israel’s poorest!

    (3). A person found guilty of stealing who was unable to make full restitution according to the Law could be sold as a slave and in this way, pay off his debt (Exodus 22:3).

    (4). Cruel and abusive slavery was not allowed under God’s Law. While masters were allowed to discipline their slaves, excesses were forbidden. A slave killed by his master was to be avenged (Exodus 21:20). If the slave was maimed, losing a tooth or an eye, he was set free (Exodus 21:26,27).

    (5). The maximum time that an Israelite would have to serve as a slave was 6 years (Exodus 21:2). Hebrew slaves were set free in the 7th year of their service. The Law demanded that every 50 years, all Israelites slaves were to be set free nationwide, regardless of how long the person had been a slave.

    (6). When a slave was released, the master was required to be generous toward him. Deuteronomy 15:13,14 says: “In case you should send him out from you as one set free, you must not send him out empty-handed. You should surely equip him with something from your threshing floor, and your oil and wine press.”

    Later, in the days of Jesus and his apostles, slavery was an entrenched practice in the Roman Empire.

    As Christianity spread, it was inevitable that persons who were slaves and others who were slave owners would come into contact with the good news and became Christians.

    Neither Jesus Christ himself, nor his apostles, preached a gospel of social liberation, as if they were trying to reform the existing system. Rather, both slaves and slave owners were admonished to love one another as spiritual brothers (Colossians 4:1; 1 Timothy 6:2).

    As is the case with every Bible-related question, the issue of slavery must be considered in context. A careful examination of the Scriptures reveals that God deplores the mistreatment of humans.

    Such an examination also reveals that the kind of slavery practiced by God’s people in the Bible is NOT the cruel and abusive slavery envisioned by most persons today.

    And the Bible shows that God will deliver us from all forms of slavery in due time. Then all mankind will enjoy TRUE FREEDOM!! (Isaiah 65:21,22).

  • Jack

    Steve, science not only does not “prove” that gays are “born that way,” but suggests exactly the opposite. Identical twin studies show today what they’ve continued to show for at least a generation — that when one twin practices homosexuality, the other does not at least 50% of the time. That is a whopper of a refutation of your dogmatic assertion. It should be nearly 100% for your view to have any plausibility.

    So right off the bat, your credibility is suspect. For you not to know the elementals above shows you are driven by pie-in-the-sky ideology, rather than on-the-ground reality. And so you’re long on rhetoric and propaganda — and short on facts and logic.

    Like so many other radical secularists, you are prone to support utopian ideas that are wildly unrealistic — even when they fail repeatedly in the real world — ideas that leave every religion known to humanity in the dust in terms of their lack of correspondence to real life and its inherent limitations. You make witch doctors look good by comparison….and that’s quite a feat indeed.

  • Fran

    Tony, the only true God, who is the Most High over all the earth, and whose name is Jehovah (Psalm 83:18).

    He is the Creator of the universe, the earth and everything on it, including us.

    He loves and cares about humans and even gave his son, as a ransom sacrifice, so that we can live forever on a paradise earth, which was his purpose for mankind when He crested Adam and Eve, our first parents, and will soon be realized.

    How can we know all these things? By regular study and meditation of God’s Word, the Bible, which also provides us a glimpse of his loving, just, wise and merciful personality!

  • Jack

    Tony, what are you talking about? Today, in 2014, Christianity remains one of the most progressive forces on earth. While your radical secularist ideology brought the world totalitarian tyranny over the past century, Christians played a key role in toppling such tyrannies — including Soviet tyranny. Today, they’re the principal force for democracy and human rights in China, the world’s most populous country, the Middle East, India, and elsewhere.

  • Jack

    Steven Lowe, I can train a parrot to utter your words. They are empty rhetoric and prove nothing.

  • Jack

    Tony, that’s ultimately up to Fran to answer, but I can make an educated guess:

    Fran’s God is the One whose existence explains the seemingly infinite examples of order we find in nature. The alternative is to believe that it all just happened magically.

    Of course you have the right to believe in magic, as you do to believe in all sorts of other eccentricities that plague left-leaning minds and, when applied to societies, have brought nothing but misery, poverty, and chaos.

  • Jack

    Marius, you make some good points about the American religious and political scene. And I say this as an American. Keep making them.

  • Jack

    Don’t listen to Andrew, Fran. He believes that literally everything around him just came into being by itself. While theoretically that’s possible, as is almost anything, holding to such a belief as dogma is evidence of a mind that is about as scientific as that of an alchemist or an astrologer.

  • Jack

    Only a fool could state with such metaphysical certainty the notion that belief in God is a fantasy. Of course, in the case of the New Atheists and their parrots on this board, the certainty is just a pose…..it is false bravado — because few people are really that dense.

  • Fran

    Steve,

    I did not ignore the slavery question at all. It just took me a long time to type up my response to MarkB about his slavery question. Please refer to my response to him among all these posts. Thanks.

    Everyone on this planet should receive equal civil rights; however, the world’s judicial and governmental systems do not always deliver this; they can differ from nation to nation.

    I cannot judge anyone myself concerning any of their lifestyles since I cannot read any person’s heart or make a judgment on whether they should continue to live or not. Jesus, as King of God’s kingdom or government will be able to make those judgments since he has been given that authority by his Father, Almighty God, whose name is Jehovah (John 5:22; Psalm 37;10,11).

    Adam could have said no to the fruit and/or refused it, but he didn’t; they each knew better, but both evidently desired independence from God instead.

    I find that most politicians lie on a regular basis; another reason why I don’t vote for them; but that God is the source of truth and always will be. Unfortunately, there are so many false religions on earth that misrepresent him; but his name will soon be sanctified in spite of that.

    I cannot keep the good news of God’s kingdom to myself, but am compelled, out of love for my fellowman, to share that good news with others; and will continue to do so.

  • Jack

    Terry, the world gave you radical secularists the keys to the car throughout the last century, and every time they did, you crashed it. You talked a good game of progress, but you brought nothing of the sort. All you did was substitute religion with strings of hopelessly naïve views about human nature and hopelessly cynical views against human dignity and freedom. The result was the bloodiest century in human history.

    You railed against theocratic tyranny, even when it was long dead and buried in the West, and you brought totalitarian tyranny.

    Your best ideas are not original, but came from the outworking of Biblical Christianity, but your original ideas have proven truly horrific.

  • Fran

    Eric,

    I can’t wait until false religion is done away with myself, and the truth about God is finally known by everyone on the planet!

    Unfortunately, many parents cannot shelter their kids from drug abuse, drinking or bullying, and parents cannot even discipline their kids for fear the cops will be called! This is definitely a different world than when I was a kid!

  • Jack

    Apparently Stan is blissfully unaware of a whole field of study known as apologetics. He prefers the settled certainties of his cloistered, undisturbed secularistic world — where nothing scary or unpredictable like God can get in and upset fragile fantasies about life and reality.

  • Fran

    Max,

    See my lengthy response to MarkB about slavery.

  • Jack

    Meet Zomberina the Rhodes scholar.

  • Jack

    Excellent post, Fran.

    Now please vote in 2016. At least read the side that says you should.

  • Fran

    Jack,

    Concerning Romans 13:1-4, Paul advised that man’s governments are ruling over the masses because they are placed there in their relative position by God

    Paul also advised that we need to pay Caesar’s things to Caesar and God’s things to God (Romans 13:5-7).

    I always pay my taxes and observe my government’s laws and regulations as long as they do not conflict with God’s laws; if they do, then I must do as Paul did (when he was forcefully told by the authorities to quit preaching about Jesus), that I must obey God as ruler rather than man (Acts 5:29).

    Since my whole-souled faith and trust is in God and his kingdom or heavenly government (instead of man’s governments), my focus is preaching the good news of God’s kingdom as the ONLY hope of government for man.

    Therefore, I cannot justify serving two masters, so to speak, but only one, God’s kingdom, where my allegiance goes.

    Since God’s kingdom will soon put an end to all of man’s governments (Daniel 2:44), as we are living in the last days of this wicked era (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21), those governments’ time left to rule over us is short.

    I am not a democrat, republican, nor independent, but am a theocrat, who supports God’s rule that will soon take place through his son, Jesus, during his millennial reign.

    Therefore, I do not vote, even though I am granted that right.

  • Fran

    Marius,

    When the people were going to seize Jesus to make him King, he withdrew from them (John 6:15). He did not get involved in politics, nor did his disciples, apostles or the first-century Christians. They knew better than that.

    And yes, Jesus said his kingdom was no part of this world (John 18:36), since it is a heavenly government (Matthew 4:17). He also said his followers were no part of the world, so we should follow that example.

    I am a theocrat, supporting God’s kingdom as the only hope for mankind. I will not sit on a fence supporting two masters (or two different governments), but only one, God’s kingdom. That is the only true theocracy, since man’s governments are man rule and not theocracies.

    God’s kingdom will soon put an end to all human governments, but God’s kingdom will last forever (Daniel 2:44).

  • Fran

    Jack, I have never voted and never will, being 60 years young. I know better than to do that! 😀

  • @Jack,

    “Biblically-based religion is what set into motion the very forces that led to modernization..”

    You consider Commanding Rape to be modernization?

    PLEASE RAPE MY VIRGIN DAUGHTERS
    BUT NOT MY BEAUTIFUL SONS

    “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.
    …LOT SAID, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
    (Genesis 19:4-8)

    The Lord said:
    “Save the virgins for RAPE” – (Num 31:18)
    “enslave those people who surrender” – (Deut. 20:10)
    “Marry your rapist” – (Duet. 22:28)
    “Raping your neighbor’s wife is a good way to punish your neighbor” – (2 Sam 12:11)
    “Sell your daughter for sex money” – (Exodus 21:7)
    “Do some raping and stealing” – (Zech 14:1-2)

    The Bible has slowed
    Civilization for 2000 years – and judging from the election night it is still a negative force on humanity.

  • @Jack,

    “Like so many other radical secularists, you are prone to support utopian ideas that are wildly unrealistic…”

    So you think more realistic is the word of your Yahweh-Saddam?

    GOD COMMANDS: “YOUR WIVES WILL BE RAPED – I WILL ARRANGE IT”
    “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall HAVE SEX WITH YOUR WIVES in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’ ” (2 Samuel 12:11)

    Rape neighbors wives in broad daylight!
    What morality is being preached here?

    I look forward to disparaging this horrible nonsense at every chance.

    ___
    AM
    For Peace, Decency and The Separation of Church and State

  • @Jack,

    “Christianity remains one of the most progressive forces on earth…”

    Yes. In calling for murder:

    “THE ONLY REMEDY FOR HOMOSEXUALS IS THAT THEY BE PUT TO DEATH..”

    – PASTOR ROBBY GALLATY
    TENNESEE MEGACHURCH
    SEPTEMBER 4, 2014

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/04/christian-pastor-at-mega-chruch-calls-on-gays-to-be-put-to-death/

    Every day more people are killed thanks to Jesus:

    Nivacil Dias de Godoy, 55,
    in Salvador, Brazil, Sept. 20, 2013.
    “the cause of death was stabbing — with a piece of wood inside a condom that pierced the victim through his anus.”

    “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

  • @Jack,

    “What do you mean by “recognizing” you, Max?…”

    I mean this:
    As we ATHEISTS increase in numbers
    Politicians will need to recognize the Atheist view of the world and
    begin to acknowledge it:

    THE PRICE OF RELIGION TO SOCIETY

    Harm to the wider community:

    1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
    2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
    3. Women made to be second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
    4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
    5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
    6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of belief in an afterlife.
    7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
    8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
    9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
    10. Genital mutilation of babies demanded by religious texts.
    11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
    12. Shunning. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
    13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
    14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
    15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
    16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs, ideas.
    17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
    18. Children using up the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
    19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
    20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
    21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
    22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
    23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
    24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
    25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
    26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
    27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
    28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
    29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
    30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
    31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
    32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
    33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
    34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
    35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
    36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
    37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
    38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
    39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
    40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

    Etc…

    The poison of religion infects us all.

    As Atheists increase in numbers politicians will have to respond with practical solutions instead of these primitive, backward religious ideas which harm everyone.

  • @Fran,

    “THE LORD SAYS, MAKE SLAVES OF THOSE AROUND YOU. CLAIM THEM – ALONG WITH THEIR CHILDREN – AS YOUR OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THEIR LIVES.

    “You shall purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you…also the children..You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this…” (Leviticus 25:44-46)

  • @Eric Mival,

    Christianity fully endorses Slavery even today.

    THE LORD SAYS, BE A GOOD SEX SLAVE. DON’T RUN TO FREEDOM OR YOU WILL GO TO HELL!

    “Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.”
    (1 Peter 2:18)

    God in heaven said, “As you approach a town to attack it…all the people inside shall serve you as slaves.” (Deut. 20:10)

  • @Jac,

    “And there is nothing “superstitious” about it….”

    You have clearly not read the ‘holy’ texts. There is nothing but superstition in the entirety of the Bible.

    GOD SAYS: “I AM SUPERSTITIOUS”
    “never boil a young goat in its mother’s milk” – (Deuteronomy 14:21)

    There is no explanation.
    God is is worried about getting the heebie jeebies.

  • @Tony,

    “Christianity’s grip on our government is disgracefully crippling. It’s mind-numbing to think how much could be accomplished. What a burden…”

    I know. It stinks.
    But you and I are not alone. When religious claims are being made many of us now reflexively say something and challenge the claims.

    ___
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity and the Separation of Church and State

  • Jack

    Fran, thanks for your reply. The problem with your approach can be seen in some of the posters here. If they had their way, there is little doubt that they would shut down the preaching of the Gospel. What stops them is that tens of millions of Christians other than yourself exercise their right to vote.

    So the continued existence of freedoms you enjoy and take for granted, such as freedom of expression, which includes religious expression, depend on other Christians doing what you are refusing to do by not voting.

    Clearly, then, any duties to human government implied in Romans 13 would include the duty to vote in countries allowing it.

    And by the way, I believe in Jesus’ coming millennial reign as well, but that doesn’t mean we abdicate responsibility in the mean time. Based on your logic, we should not participate in the economy, either.

    You need to rethink your position and speak to Christians who believe otherwise. This is no small matter.

  • Jack

    Atheist Max, the ultimate superstition is to believe that by closing your eyes to the sun, you’ve erased it from the sky.

    That’s you….

  • @Billysees,

    “I think it would be better for atheists to ‘represent something’ rather than be known for ‘not believing in something’.”

    I think reducing the amount of religion in society will do more than might seem apparent.

    In countries which have reduced religion
    there has been a dramatic improvement in the culture
    in the equality and civil rights generally.

    For example; wherever religion has been reduced:
    Massachusetts, Vermont, Maine, Connecticut, Oregon, Washington State and Northern California the result of less religion has been dramatic.

    These more Atheistic states are generally happier, more egalitarian, better educated, with more diverse industries, more diverse socially, more diversity of culture, more science and better jobs.
    Women do better financially in these states also.

    All that comes from simply increasing the number of Atheists. So…
    There is more to it than meets the eye.

    Plus, Humanism is only possible if you eliminate religion.
    The God hypothesis eliminates man’s responsibility for other humans and lays it at God instead – that is among the most damaging things about religion. Where God exists, there is no room for people to do anything.

    A lot of good can happen once you get God out of the way.

    ___
    AM
    for Peace, Love and The Separation of Church and State

  • Jack

    Atheist Max, as usual, you’re running away from the issue by copying and pasting from atheist hate sites which rip words out of their context and confuse human actions with God’s eternal and universal commands.

    Meanwhile, you conveniently ignore the continued mass slaughter of people when atheism is made into a governing philosophy and then imposed on humanity. You also forget that the very assertion of universal human rights which atheist states trample upon depends on the view that there is a God who is greater than any government and who is the source of such rights.

  • Jack

    You mean to say you look forward to avoiding the issue of the moral implications of atheism — ie the stark truth that as Dostoevsky wrote, “without God, all things are permissible,” as seen by the repeated genocides committed by atheist regimes. There is no atrocity under the sun that was not committed by these atheist regimes. There is literally nothing that even ISIS has done that your atheist friends haven’t done under such regimes. They are directly responsible for the worst slaughters in the history of the planet. No other world view even comes close to visiting more death, destruction, and misery on humanity.

    In other words, the alternative you are advocating to belief in God is one that has led to more and greater horrors than anything you can name under societies whose institutions presuppose the existence of God. The hands of atheist states and their apologists are drenched in the blood of the innocent….not thousands or millions, but over 150 million…..Nothing in history even comes close.

  • Jack

    Once again, Max, you’re running away from the reality that atheism is humanity’s #1 killer…..and that were it not for Christians, the atheist killing machines would never have stopped anywhere.

  • Jack

    But Fran, what if you’re wrong? Have you considered the possibility?

  • Jack

    Max, we have seen abroad what happens when an atheist world view captures nations. It turns the world into mass torture chambers and slaughterhouses which dwarf the worst depredations under any other system.

    It makes grisly sense once we recall Dostoevsky’s prophetic words:

    “Without God, all is permissible.”

    Indeed.

  • Jack

    150 million dead and counting under atheist regimes.

    Without God, everything becomes permissible.

  • Jack

    But if you eliminate God, you eliminate the belief that certain things like human rights abuses are wrong, irrespective of what any culture or society says. You completely replace rule of law with rule of man, and the result is destruction and genocide. You lose all grounding for the belief that people have rights which no government on earth has the authority to violate.

    And that is why atheist regimes are history’s most prolific killers by an astronomical margin.

    Put another way, by eliminating God, you throw the baby out with the bath water…..You eliminate not only toxic religion, but good religion. You end up with no religion, which as history testifies, is the worst outcome of all in terms of the genocide and misery that result.

  • @Jack,

    “You mean to say you look forward to avoiding the issue of the moral implications of atheism…”

    I dismiss your Atheist Straw Man claims.
    All of the so called Atheists you will mention were users of religious populations. Religion is the engine of genocide – not atheism.

    The immorality is 100% on the side of the person who makes this claim:

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine and execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    It is rich:
    You say you reject genocide. Your God demands genocide.
    You say you reject rape and immorality. Your God demands rape and immorality!
    You say you reject slavery and hate. Your God demands slavery and hate!

    And you are not educated.

    You don’t seem to know that Separation of Church and State is the only thing keeping the Southern Baptists, Jews, Charismatics, Congregationalists and Catholics from killing each other!

    If you are concerned about the rise of Atheism, you should be encouraging the Separation of Church and State instead of foolish barbarisms!

    And yes – ATHEISM is vastly superior to your SADDAM/YAHWEH/JESUS/BIN LADEN GOD theories.

    Atheist societies continue to behave better, act more fairly, more humanely and promote better societies than any religious societies.

    Remember – Atheists don’t go to jail. You might care to look into why that is!

    ___
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity and the Separation of Church and State

  • @Jack,

    Don’t claim the moral high ground over Atheists.
    That is a slander.

    It is shameful to keep repeating things which are not true and for which you have no evidence.

    http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/atheist-dont-commit-as-much-crime-as-the-religious-do

  • @Jack!

    “were it not for Christians, the atheist killing machines would never have stopped anywhere.”

    Do you not read books? Do you not know any history??

    800 MILLION PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED BY CHRISTIANS

    300 MILLION DIED DIRECTLY FROM ALL OTHER RELIGION:

    War on Aids – 20 Million Died despite the clear knowledge that condoms would have saved their lives. Catholic clinics
    obstructed condoms over a 20 year period through their clinics as women begged to be saved from their husbands (“Aids is bad but condoms are worse” – the Pope)


    Spanish Inquisitions – 300,000 dead (Catholic Fascists)

    The Crusades (1095 c.e. -1291 c.e.) 3 Million dead over a continuous 200-year long genocide – Catholic fascists.

    Anti-Semitism – 6 millions dead over 1900 years EXCLUDING the Holocaust


    Witch Hunts – 700,000 dead


    Ireland – 800,000 dead (Catholic vs. Protestant)


    Rwanda 1994 (Catholic Facists killed 1,000,000 with machetes)


    Taipeng Rebellion in China (1850 – 1864) 50 million dead (Christian Fascists)

    Boznia-Herzegovina – 500,000 over 800 years! (Catholic Facists)

    The Ivory Coast civil wars (Catholic Facists)

    Franco, the Spanish Civil War (Catholic Facists)

    Cypriat War (Catholics)

    East Timor civil war

    Sri Lankan civil war

    Syria vs. Israel

    Kashmir civil war

    Chechnya civil war

    Sudan

    Thirty Years War (Protestants VS. Catholics)

    WW1 – War of Christendom (40 Million dead)


    WW2 – Nazi Anti-Semitism LUTHERAN/CATHOLIC FASCISM, “Gott Mit Uns” Axis powers AND HIROHITO CULT OF THE SUN GOD – 60 Million dead


    Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
    Algeria, 1992-
    Baha’is, 1848-54
    Bosnia, 1992-95
    Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901

    Constantinian Empire & Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
    Croatia, 1991-92
    English Civil War, 1642-46
    Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
    India, 1992-2002
    India: Suttee & Thugs
    Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947

    Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-

    Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92

    Jews, 1348

    Jonestown, 1978

    Lebanon 1860 / 1975-92
    Molucca Is., 1999-
    Mongolia, 1937-39

    Russian pogroms 1905-06 / 1917-22

    St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572

    Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE

    Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38

    Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91

    Spanish Inquisition at its peak, 1478-1834
    Tudor England

    Vietnam 1800s

    OTHER Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
    Xhosa, 1857

    Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE

    Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-

    Al Qaeda, 1993-

    Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609

    Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

    Khemr Rouge (red army) led by Pol Pot 1968-1979 – 6 Million Dead in the KILLING FIELDS
    FORCED absolutist FAITH in the Agrarian Religious Cult of Pol Pot THERAVEDA BUDDHIST claimed purity of the xenophobic Cambodian Nationalist Tribe and the unwavering
    FAITH in Agrarian Communism: 6 million dead.

    Yet after all of this murder your God doesn’t appear to exist.
    He is completely dismissible and there is not the slightest consequence.

    Nor does this god of yours seem to take a side in HIS OWN battles since neither Christian, Jew, Hindu, Agrarian Cultist, Islamist, Paganist or ANY OTHER RELIGION dominate for very long!

    Religion is a cult of death.

    How dare you speak of morality and connect yourself to a god?

    “The master shall cut him to pieces” – JESUS (Luke 12)

    And you think you are going to be seen as moral? I see NO morality in your position at all.
    For shame.

  • @Jack,

    “if you eliminate God, you eliminate the belief that certain things like human rights abuses are wrong…”

    You believe this because you have no education.

  • @Jack,

    “atheist regimes..”

    What is wrong with you?
    You sound like a parrot instead of a person.

    The USA is already run by an Atheistic document:
    “Congress shall make no law establishing a religion or prohibiting the practice thereof”

    Your religious freedom depends entirely on the
    SPECIFIC, ATHEISTIC WORDING of that wall of separation.
    Without it, any religion (Including Agrarian Religious Cults such as Stalin’s and Pol Pot’s) can rise to power in America!

    You are apparently doing nothing to further your education!

    ___
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity and The Separation of Church and State

  • @Jack,

    150 million killed by Atheists??
    Where do you get that ridiculous number!?

    Atheists don’t even go to jail!

    800 Million Killed by Christians is A FACTUAL, SUPPORTABLE STATISTIC!

    And why is there a body count for Christianity anyway?
    What good is this foolishness?

    ___
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity and The Separation of Church and State.

  • @Jack,

    ” universal human rights which atheist states trample upon depends on the view that there is a God who is greater than any government and who is the source of such rights.”

    “YOU ARE FREE TO LIVE AS YOU WISH” – SAID NO GOD EVER!!

    Don’t be ridiculous!
    ‘God-given’ rights is an oxymoron.

    You are falling down a rabbit hole of nonsense.

    ___
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity and The Separation of Church and State

  • @Jack,

    Out of context?

    Please explain under what context it would be right to cut off your wife’s hand if she touched another man’s penis!

    GOD SAYS – “CUT OFF YOUR WIFE’S HAND IF SHE TOUCHES ANOTHER MAN’S PENIS.”

    “If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and SEIZING HIS PENIS and TESTICLES, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.” – DEUT. 25:11

    Under what context does this Bible lesson become useful for us today in modern times!?

    I’m dying to know more about your wisdom and the wisdom of your God!

    Priests who are reading this should wake up
    and realize that it is time to quit this garbage!

    We don’t need more JACKS who are so ill-informed.

  • @Jack,

    The Bible:
    A book written by ancient barbarians who didn’t know where the sun went at night.

    Paul completely doubted his own story and knew there was a chance it might just all be superstitions and hallucinations!

    “If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. (1 Corinthians 15:19)

    “…If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.”
    (1 CORINTHIANS 15:12-19)

    And Jesus was awful.
    There is no reason why anyone should hope that Jesus was correct about any of his awful preachments!

    Kill MY ENEMIES – JESUS
    “bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27)

    JUDGE OTHERS HARSHLY – JESUS
    You have heard Jesus say, “Judge not that ye be not judged.” (Matthew 7:1). Fine. But what good is it to not judge if you are also instructed by jesus to act like and behave as a judge, EVEN TO TESTIFY as a judge!!?
    “Any place that does not receive you or listen…shake the dust off the soles of your feet for A TESTIMONY against them.” (MARK 6:11)
    “If you deem [them] not worthy, take back your blessing of peace” JESUS – (Matthew 10:13)
    “DO NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE…IF HE IS GUILTY..”
    (1 Corinthians 5:11)

    ABANDON ALL OF THEM – JESUS
    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”(LUKE 14:26).
    Jesus is saying that you must not love those who do not accept the claims that Jesus is making. You must abandon them!
    Even if they are completely confused, you have no choice!

    YOU MUST FORGIVE EVEN MURDERERS AND PEDOPHILES.
    BUT I DO NOT FORGIVE, EVER! – JESUS
    Eternal fire is your punishment for a long list of crimes against Jesus.
    Among these ridiculous commands:
    “EAT OF MY BODY” and “BE BAPTIZED AND BELIEVE” or “BE CONDEMNED TO ETERNAL HELL”. (John 6:53-54) and (Mark
    16:16)

    The nonsense never seems to end.

    ____
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity, Love and The Separation of Church and State
    Question the claims of religion!

  • Fran

    Jack,

    God is never wrong, is always truthful and never fails concerning his promises to man…man, on the other hand, is usually just the opposite, which I have witnessed with my own eyes.

    It all depends on who you put your trust and faith in.

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  • @Jack,

    “Without God, all is permissible.” – Dostoevsky

    How dare you?
    You compare that to the genocidal COMMAND of Jesus !??

    “With God all things are possible” – Jesus (Matthew 19:26)
    “BRING MY ENEMIES..EXECUTE THEM” – JESUS (LUKE 1(:27)
    “Behold, I give unto you power….over the enemy: and nothing shall hurt you.” – Jesus (Luke 10:19-20)

    Jesus proclaims a sheild to protect murderers and tells them TO GO FORTH!

    You clearly have no knowledge of the Jesus you promote!

  • FmrCath

    Andrew, Fran’s “friends” are also persuaded (by real evidence) that at some point in the (hopefully near) future, the God who created all things will have to step in and fix things. Man has made nothing but a big mess of EVERYTHING and is powerless to really set things right in a fair and unbiased way. Jesus said his kingdom was no part of the world…. that’s true because it’s “seat of government” is in heaven but he did say that someday it would rule over the earth when he encouraged his followers to pray for that kingdom to come so God’s will would be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven… It may seem to be delaying but it will come. I hope we are here to see it happen.

  • Jim

    Glad the republicans kicked ass. My atheism doesn’t define my politics. It is only a small part of who i am.

  • I hear Jeffrey Dahmer is a Christian.
    Apparently not all Christians see Christianity as their primary identity.

  • Actually, almost all archeological evidence directly contradicts the stories in the Bible, and there is no historical evidence of the divinity of Jesus (no extra-Biblical accounts of his magic tricks, for example) and very little evidence that he even existed.

  • Jack

    That’s very good, Jim. You are in good company. I’ve heard that George Will is an atheist and I think Charles Krauthammer might be as well….and both are quite pleased with the election outcome, as they should be.

  • Jack

    You are hiding like an impish child behind mountains of spam, Max, because you can’t stand on your own two feet and debate. But that’s your choice. Unlike atheist tyrannies, constitutional democracies allow you that choice.

    Nice try, though, in your pretending not to know anything about God-given rights…..As you well know, the beginning of the Declaration of Independence makes precisely that claim — that rights are given by God…..which is precisely why no government has the moral authority to take them away.

  • Jack

    150 million dead and counting, Max.

    You are to mass-murdering atheist regimes what moderate Muslims are to radical Islamist tyrannies like the Islamic State (ie the ISIS government that has just been created).

    You need to own up as they do by admitting that at the very least, militant forms of atheism are deadly to humanity.

  • Shawnie5

    Hey Jack, I already told you, that line from the Declaration of Independence is a David Barton fabrication. He fabricated it almost 200 years before he was born. Larry says so—or at least another atheist told him so–so it must be true. Quite the amazing boogeyman, that Barton.

  • Name one human right which is god-given.

    I’d like to know exactly which rights you claim have come from god and I want you to tell me how you know this.

  • Marilyn

    “No proof?” You wish!! 2 Kings Chs. 18 and 19 speak of King Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz king of Judah. Hezekiah was 25 years old when he became king of Judah.in 617 BC. And in the 14th year of his reign (603 BC) Sennacherib, king of Assyria (607-583 BC), came “to all the fenced cities of Judah and took them”. Sennacherib was an actual historically validated person of history King of Assyria. In his hexagonal cylinder, recording his military campaigns, and acquired by the British Museum (1910), he speaks of the 46 “fenced cities” he took. In the 11th-21st lines Sennacherib says:
    11. “I fixed upon him. And of Hezekiah [king of the].
    12. “Jews, who had not submitted to my yoke”
    13. “forty-six of his fenced cities, and the strongholds, and the smaller cities”
    14. “which were round about them and which were without number”
    15. “by the battering of rams, and by the attack of engines”
    16. “and by the assaults of foot soldiers, and….(2)
    17. “I besieged, I captured 200, 150 people, small and great, male and female,
    18. “horses, and mules, and asses, and camels, and men,
    19. and sheep innumerable from their midst I brought out, and
    20. “I reckoned [them] as spoil. [Hezekiah] himself like a caged bird within Jerusalem,
    21. “his royal city, I shut in, &c.
    Note: (2) The three words at the end of this line are the proper names of military engines.
    God told Hezekiah that He would not allow Sennacherib to prevail, and He diverted Sennacherib back to his home in Ninevah. Sennacherib was murdered by his 2 sons, Adrammelech and Sharezer, in Tebet, (Dec.). There followed a rebellion which lasted 6 months, and when it ended Esarhaddon became king, as Sennacherib had willed him everything.
    The Bible is historical, and accurate. Just because you choose not to believe, does not make it false.
    Psalm 14:1 “The fool hath said in his heart ‘There is no God’. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”

  • Jack

    Note that Max hides behind walls of spam to avoid the point — that without God, there is no authority above government and no author of human rights which no government can abuse. Max pretends to not know any of this, even though it’s the opening of America’s founding document, the Declaration of Independence — and can be founding in the public pronouncements of America’s leaders from the dawn of the nation all the way to the present.

    In other words, Max is hoping that most people are sufficiently ignorant of the history and heritage of free nations like America that they won’t know any of this.

  • Jack

    Yes, of course, everything is Barton’s fault. Barton has horns and changes weather patterns at will.

  • Jack

    Max, how did you ever get through school not knowing the Declaration of Independence?

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are……endowed by their creator with…unalienable rights…..”

    Where were you educated? In Castro’s Cuba?

    I’m picturing your arguing with Thomas Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers on this point.

    It would make for excellent comedy……

  • Jack

    Note how once we drag Max out from behind his mountains of spam, forcing him to speak and reason on his own, all he does is babble like an infant.

  • Jack

    Note how Max, in his posts that include everything but the kitchen sink, includes militant atheist Marxist regimes and other distinctly non-Christian examples. To include Marxist genocides as examples of Christian atrocities is about as honest as using the Spanish Inquisition to highlight atheist-driven atrocities. Not only is it dishonest, it’s surreal.

    And the 800 million figure is on the level of psychopathy. It’s not even close.

    But while human beings have killed each other for anything and everything, there is no question that more people have died under atheist regimes in the past century than under any other kind of government in the history of humanity. It’s not even disputable.

    And anybody who knows anything at all about the intellectual foundations, such as they are, of Marxism are inextricably bound to the premises of atheism. It doesn’t mean that most atheists are Marxists, but it does mean that all Marxists are atheists….and it does mean that if nobody was an atheist, no one would likely be a Marxist.

  • Jack

    Again, it looks like the Declaration of Independence and the whole post-Reformation British evangelical political tradition as well as the British Enlightenment are foreign to Max, not to mention Rutherford’s Lex Rex, the most popular book in the American colonies next to the Bible, and countless other examples of the theistic origins and foundation of human rights advocacy — based on rule of law over rule of man.

    But even if we were as demonstrably ignorant as Max is of the historical connection between God and human rights, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that without God, human government reins supreme and there is no higher authority which asserts human rights above and beyond any given government’s dictates. There is no logical grounds for asserting any individual rights which transcend any and all human government unless there is a power and authority above it. Or to put it a different way, unless human beings are endowed with something that is of eternal value, it follows that governments and nations are more important than individuals since they outlive them, and thus their dictates trump everything.

    A person can be for human rights and be a theist, an atheist, or an agnostic, but atheists and agnostics who support them are living off of the legacy of theism which made their very conception possible.

  • Jack

    Sorry, I meant “reigns” not “reins” supreme….

  • Jack

    800 million what, Max? 800 million people killed in the name of Christianity? Maybe we should rename you Baghdad Bob. One person killed is one too many, but you don’t get to make up preposterous statistics that have no relation to reality.

    Not even your Marxist cousins killed that many people….thank God, no one belief or ideology killed that many.

    But on the other hand, 150 million done by your friends makes them the world champions, hands down, of genocide.

    And as to how that figure was arrived at……70 million under Mao alone, tens of millions starved to death in the Ukraine alone under Stalin, to cite just one of many examples of Uncle Joe’s butchery….then add communist regimes and insurrections across the world, from Castro’s Cuba to Ho and Pol Pot and the Pathet Lao in Indochina, to North Korea before and since the Kim regime, to Communist tyrannies in sub-Saharan Africa in the decades after independence, to name a few examples, and the figure probably exceeds 150 million easily because the killings continue.

    What stopped the worst of them was the Soviet Union’s downfall, thanks in large part to faith-based pro-democracy movements triggered by Pope John Paul II and others.

    Meanwhile, as a recent Wall Street Journal article noted, the main opposition to the mainland Chinese leadership’s imposing the usual Marxist horrors on Hong Kong is none other than, once again, a faith-driven, student-run, pro-democracy movement. The leaders are Christian….and that is exactly why the Chinese Communists in Beijing are relentless persecutors of Christianity…..they see an inextricable link between Christianity and liberal democracy….and fear that this movement will topple them as it did to the Soviet Union.

  • Jack

    Evangelical Christianity stopped chattel slavery. While Max’s cynical friends were arguing that slavery was too integrated into commerce to pull its plug, William Wilberforce and other evangelicals demanded an end to the trade.

    So while every culture and religion has allowed slavery throughout history, there was one main group in the world that was almost solely responsible for its abolition…..not atheists, not Communists, not agnostics, not commercial titans — but Bible-affirming Christians. In fact, the same kinds of people who laugh at religion today laughed at abolitionism yesterday. So tied to religion was abolitionism, it was considered religious fanaticism for one to be an abolitionist.

  • Jack

    A Christian named William Wilberforce

  • Jack

    Max won’t read lengthy responses, but as we all know, Max writes them regularly.

  • Jack

    Fran, you’re equating God’s will with your interpretation of it.

    Given that there’s nothing in Scripture which says, “thou shalt not vote,” you have to ask yourself how you know for sure that your interpretation is the right one.

  • Jack

    Atheist Max says that “Christianity endorses slavery even today.”

    “Even today?”

    Please cite examples of any Christian church today supporting slavery anywhere in today’s world. I can cite examples of every Christian church today opposing it wherever it has reared its head…..

    Sudan comes to mind.

  • Jack

    #10 is most telling and disturbing — it’s the bigoted cry of Jew-haters throughout history…It’s no coincidence that it’s from a militant atheist hate site.

    But Atheist Max wouldn’t know about its history– all he does is copy and paste from such sites, without asking questions.

    In fact, the entire post reads like a hate screed, filled with attempts to marginalize ideological opponents

  • Jack

    At this point, people might think I’m paying Max to craft zany posts to make atheists look foolish. I assure you I’m not. He’s doing it all by his lonesome.

  • Fran

    Jack you are a disgrace to mankind.

  • Fran

    You are a small matter. Well not even.

  • Shawnie5

    “Where were you educated? Castro’s Cuba?”

    Close. Atheism@about.com.

  • Fran

    Jack, you are wrong. That’s not just a possibility. It’s balledface reality.

  • Fran

    And I’m not equating God’s will with anything. It has no equal.

  • Fran

    You use a lot of briefs too.

  • @Jack,

    Your religion is not important enough for you to read about it – only to promote it. You have no idea what your religion is all about.

    If the message is short, you complain it is out of context.
    If the message is long, you say it isn’t worth the bother.

  • @Jack,

    “Please cite examples of any Christian church today supporting slavery anywhere in today’s world…”

    Every church
    which claims the Bible is the Word of God is promoting slavery:

    “Slaves, in REVERENT FEAR of God SUBMIT YOURSELVES TO YOUR OWNERS, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are sickly perverse.” (1 Peter 2:18)

    The Catholic Church
    The Protestant Church
    The Evangelical church
    The Southern Baptist Church
    The Charismatic Church
    The Mormon Church
    The Congregationalists
    The Anglican Church

    JESUS EXPLAINS HOW TO WHIP A SLAVE:
    “That slave, who knew his owner’s will, and didn’t prepare, nor do what he wanted, will be beaten harshly with many strokes, but he who didn’t know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes. …. whom much was commanded, of him more will be asked.
    — (Luke 12:35-48)

    No where in the entire Bible does it say slaves must be freed.
    Jesus never once scolded a slave owner for owning human beings.

    You do not know, nor do you understand, your religion.

  • @Jack!

    “endowed by their creator with…unalienable rights…..”

    SO WHAT? SOMEBODY CLAIMED FROM 200 YEARS AGO THAT THE RIGHTS ARE FROM GOD!!!?

    WHERE IS YOU PROOF THAT IS WHERE THEY CAME FROM?
    WHERE IS THE LINE THAT CONNECTS THOSE DOTS?

    WHAT EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT THE RIGHTS CAME FROM A GOD??

    OH! YOU DON’T HAVE ANY !
    CONGRATULATIONS FOR PROVING THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT GOD GAVE YOU THE RIGHTS!

    DON’T SHOW ME WRITINGS FROM PEOPLE WHO MAKE CLAIMS – SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!!!

    WHERE IS IT?

  • “the bigoted cry of Jew-haters”

    Pointing out that genital mutilation is a crime is somehow ‘jew-hating’?
    Are you unaware that Catholics and Muslims routinely commit this crime also?
    And do you know anything about the vast numbers of girls and boys who die from this mindless, stupid procedure?

    How do you figure out that protecting babies from genital mutilation is ‘jew-hating’.

    You do not know your religion, nor do you seem to have the first clue about the evils within it.

  • @Jack,

    Agrarian Cults like Mao’s, Stalin’s and Pol-Pot’s have been around for thousands of years.

    And yes – it is a faith-based enterprise forced on the entire population.

    You keep forgetting that I am an Atheist.
    I don’t know how that is possible – but you keep doing it.

    I don’t believe in faith-based enterprises.

  • @Jack,

    Where are you getting the idea that genocide is bad?

    “I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy.” – GOD (JER 13:14)

    “Now go and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.” – GOD (1 Samuel 15:3)

    “Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.” GOD (Isaiah 13:15)

    God COMMANDS YOU ….Kill the women. Rape the little girls:
    “Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. ‘Why have you let all the women live?’ he demanded. …They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.” -(Num:31:18)

    “I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, ‘Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won’t need to strike again.’ But no!” – YAHWEH (Zephaniah 3:16)

    GOD COMMANDS MASS SLAUGHTER
    “My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out.” (Exodus 23:23)

    GOD SAYS GO AND KILL MORE – EVEN IF THEY SAY THEY ARE SORRY! :
    “Then the LORD said to me, ‘Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight!” (JEREMIAH 15:1-7)

    GOD COMMANDS – KILL YOUR NEIGHBOR:
    “Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.” (Jeremiah 48:10)

    JESUS AGREES! “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,…” (John 1:17).

    GOD COMMANDS MASS SLAUGHTER OF BABIES
    AND COMMANDS ABORTIONS
    “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer… Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts…they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, YET WILL I SLAY even the beloved fruit of their womb.” (Hosea 9:11-16)

    GOD SAYS GO AND KILL MORE – EVEN IF THEY SAY THEY ARE SORRY! :
    “Then the LORD said to me, ‘Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight!” (JEREMIAH 15:1-7)
    JESUS AGREES! (JOHN 1:17)

    GOD’S FIRST COMMANDMENT: “MAKE WAR FOREVER WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS”
    1. “I am making a covenant with you. “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land” (EXODUS 34:15)


    WHY ARE YOU OPPOSED TO MAO? OR STALIN?
    WHAT IS THE BASIS FOR YOUR OBJECTION?

    You claim this god is to be loved and worshipped but yet you object to every thing about him!

    ____
    AM
    for Peace, Humanity and The Separation of Church and State

  • Shawnie5

    Jack, you might want to check out David Satter’s book “It Was a Long Time Ago, and It Never Happened Anyway.” Satter was a Moscow correspondent for years, and in his book he talked about exactly what you have been — how even now the former Soviet Union has a problem with conceiving of morality and inherent individual rights without reference to loyalty and obedience to the state because of the decades of atheist culture and propaganda that have effectively removed the concept of a transcendent source for those things.

  • Shawnie5

    LOL! I thought the same thing. Max does look a lot like a reverse Ronald.

  • Shawnie5

    Mods, why are these juveniles allowed to fraudulently post insults under other people’s names?

  • Mike

    Atheists replacing entrenched dogma (God exists) with new dogma (human beings are really the gods). I’m sure folks like Nietzsche and Hitler would love it.

  • Hitler was a Catholic.

  • Bob

    Jack, please stop your frequent ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with you here. Max is obviously not an infant. Such attacks just show even further how weak your case for your god myth really is. Clearly you are very frustrated, but it really is time for you to take a chill pill, you vicious, angry Christian.

  • Denise The Ozarkian

    It’s the god that is the fantasy, Jack. Well, one of them, anyway.

  • Denise The Ozarkian

    Marilyn, getting a few historical facts correct that were already known is just trivial gab. It is not a basis of proof for claims that a being was divine.

    Where’s your god today? Why isn’t it doing a darn thing to help with all the world’s problems now? You claim it was so active back when our observation capabilities weren’t so good, so did your oh-so-powerful BOMITS need a vacation for thousands of years or did it just have a short attention span?

  • Denise The Ozarkian

    Jack,religion is not the basis for our morals, or our rules, really. Usually religion lags both, and then changes its tune to match what people find agreeable, afterward. Just watch Pope Francis moving the goalposts these days. Man making, and remaking, religion as usual. Not really that suprising.

  • Jan

    frank: use those new internets and search on ‘pascal’s wager’. Just do it. Now. For real.

  • Bob

    No, Jack. It is your awful, vengeful, and fortunately fictional, sky tyrant of your Christian fairy tales who according to your horrid holy book actually instructs and promises murder of whole races, and other horrid, bloody crimes. Your god, if it actually existed, should be on trial for human rights abuses, and for worse doings than humans themselves have managed, even worse than Hitler, who was a documented Christian.Take a look at these direct quotes from both foul testaments of your Christian book of nasty AKA the bible, and note especially the following text about context and interpretation:

    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
    18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

    1 Timothy 2:11
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”

    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Leviticus 25
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don’t get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

    Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it’s in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god’s mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

    And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your “god” couldn’t come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken “out of context”, and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you’ve made for yourself.

    So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Ian Fotheringham

    Inventing a deity being such as Christians have done does not actually provide a valid or solid basis for morals. Morals and rules such as laws clearly change as humans determine that they should. They were never written in stone, and change frequently. This can be readily observed. It’s also funny to watch church doctrine get changed afterward as it tries to catch up. So much for the unchanging “word of god”.

  • Pam

    Good to see Jack touting liberal and democratic values, anyway. Good on ya, Jack.

    Now just lose the god-bothering and Jeebus freak bits, and you can be a proud, secular, freedom-loving liberal American.

    Go liberal, secular Jack, go!

  • Dave V

    Anyone that isn’t an “evil little thing” rejects the goofiness that is atheism.

    But it takes the ability to think with a rational mind to reject the selfishness inherent in humanism.

    “Non-theism” is the pronouncement that nothing times nothing can produce something. And atheists try to bluff you away from that fact by getting outraged and haughty. Usually demanding their education makes them more important a person. Somehow.

    It’s sad to watch “non-theists” puff up like they are actually choosing atheism because of anything other than emotionalism. Sometimes it’s humorous, but mostly sad. The hundreds of millions of human beings crushed under the boots of applied secularism usually washes away the chuckling pretty quick.

  • “applied secularism” is a religion and it has a god.

    Atheists don’t believe in gods or cults – or did you miss that part?

    The USA has not typically had religious warfare because of Separation of Church and State, which is an Atheistic Establishment Clause

    “Congress shall make no law establishing a religion or prohibiting the practice thereof”

    You live under an Atheistic Law.
    You are the beneficiary of Atheists and Agnostics who had little regard for religion and more regard for human laws instead of ‘claimed godly laws’.

    America has religious freedom because it has an ATHEISTIC document called the US Constitution which does NOT CLAIM ANY god to have any relevant laws above those made BY THE PEOPLE.

    You owe your freedom of religion to people who were certain that God could not be included in our laws:

    “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
    – JAMES MADISION

    “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
    – James Madison, letter to William. Bradford, April 1, 1774

    The Constitution is worth saving.
    Religion is for garbage chutes.

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