Edie Windsor, heroine of gay marriage movement, revels in a whirlwind year

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Same-sex marriage pioneer Edie Windsor served as the grand marshal for the 43rd annual Pride Parade in Manhattan.

Photo by Lev Radin, via Shutterstock.com

Same-sex marriage pioneer Edie Windsor served as the grand marshal for the 43rd annual Pride Parade in Manhattan.

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(RNS) The 85-year-old widow keeps up a hectic pace of public appearances and takes pride in the progress seen by the LGBT community both in court cases and public opinion polls.

  • Larry

    As usual Art, you have nothing to say but rude, crass, ignorant insults.

    Of course you fail to understand the obvious. That ALL DISCRIMINATORY LAWS were passed by elected officials and a majority vote. That doesn’t mean such laws have to stand.

  • Doc Anthony

    But as Edie Windsor demonstates, even if “discriminatory” laws against homosexual marriage should be overturned today, it’s A-Okay to keep on fighting until those same common-sense male-female traditional-marriage laws are **re-instated** somewhere in the future, even if one does not expect to live long enough to see the “final victories” as Windsor put it.

    So a big thanks to Edie Windsor!! You are an inspiration to ME too!!
    I will surely follow YOUR example, and do my best to keep fighting against the Gay Marriage Cult for as long as it takes !!!

  • Larry

    You aren’t even trying to make sense here. You have a right to be married to the woman of your choice. Just like Edie.

    So why does “traditional marriage” need to be defended under color of law? Because you think Jesus says so. You don’t have a single rational and secular reason for opposing marriage equality.

  • Doc Anthony

    C’mon now Larry. You’ve actually said “you don’t have a single rational and secular reason” previously, only to be directly confronted with exactly such reasons, not only from straight sources but ALSO from gay sources. Do you really want to re-hash those items again?

    Meanwhile, this RNS puff piece on Edie Windsor is essentially celebrating her LONGEVITY and PERSISTANCE as a lesbian, not just the fact that it was her name on the historic and evil Supreme Court case that legalized gay marriage throughout America.

    She was in a “40-year engagement” (longevity, persistance), for the last five years she’s been in the thick of things since the infamous court decision, and as a result of her fame, she is doing a “whirlwind” event schedule that most 85-year-olds couldn’t handle at all.

    So that’s the personal take-home lesson for me, courtesy of the patient and enthusiastic gay activist known as Edie Windsor. **Longevity.** **Persistence.**

    In other words, keep on fighting even if you don’t know if you’ll ever see any victories. Keep on fighting even if you don’t know if you will live one more year, or even one more week. Just keep on fighting while you can.

    Fighting AGAINST the gay marriage mess, that is !!!

  • Frank

    How sad that she is some kind of hero to some people.

  • Larry

    C’mon Doc, you either ignored the question or gave me garbage before. You obviously have nothing now. You are a very bad liar.

    You never gave anything other than nonsense, religious reasons and expressions of your own animosity towards gays. You can’t even discuss the subject without hurling invective.

  • Larry

    Troll says what.

  • Mary Bishop-Baldwin

    Edie Windsor is our hero. My wife and I filed our lawsuit five years before Edie filed hers, but she got to the Supreme Court first, and the ruling she got set the stage for judges in our case and so many others to rule for equality. Thank you so much, Edie, for standing up and standing your ground. We are forever in your debt.

  • No, Larry, I offered a precise summary of the story without the prettifying trumpery. This bothers you, hence your exercise in projection, insult, and in recitation of talking points which are demonstrably valueless and whose fallacies have been pointed out to you time and again.

  • Aaron Lindahl

    How sad that ingrained ignorance, bigotry and prejudice over how someone was born, and who they love, is a value to some people

  • Aaron Lindahl

    The people who always say that it isn’t ‘them’ that is judging gay people for their ‘sins’, but that it’s only ‘God’ or ‘Scripture’ which is the one judging are fooling themselves, because it isn’t ‘God’ down here speaking through a burning bush to us: judging, rejecting, condemning, and making other people feel like dirt or worthless, but rather ‘they’ themselves who are doing that, while exhorting others to do the same sinful and hateful thing; thus taking the place of God in doing so.

    We can see that happening on a much more violent level today in Islam by the ISIS and Al-Qaeda fanatics… who seem to believe that they are ‘Allah’ or ‘God’ themselves on this Earth, and take it upon themselves to brutalize, condemn, reject, judge, and in many cases kill the perceived ‘sinners’ in the name of their God, ignoring all teachings of love and acceptance of our fellow human souls we share this Earth with. Thus began the shameful Christian Inquisition of our past… from precisely such misguided people.

    I think the following Biblical Scripture describes them very well, as they are the modern day equivalent of the Pharisees, who used the ‘Law’ at the time to condemn all others over even the slightest variance from such rigid, static, and unforgiving beliefs, and who even plotted to arrest and then assassinate Jesus Himself, over breaking Scriptural Law because He ‘worked’ on the Sabbath by picking grain from the fields to feed his hungry followers. Their professed ‘love’ of others (i.e. ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’) many times ends up being, or already is the same type of love as a spouse who beats his wife almost to death, and then tells her “I love you so much.” It is a truly evil and hateful sickness of both the spirit and the mind, that they infect entire congregations with:

    1 Corinthians 13:4-8

    “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.”

    James 4:12

    “God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. But you–who do you think you are to judge your neighbor?”

    Matthew 23:13-15

    “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.”

    Matthew 23:28

    “In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.”

    Matthew 23:27

    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all that is foul and unclean.”

    1 Timothy 4:1-2

    “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared as with a hot iron.”

    It seems to me that they have no conscience at all.. that’s it been completely burned away by demonic doctrines, in how prejudiced, rejecting and unloving some ‘Christians’ are towards gay people.

  • Karla

    Aaron Lindahl-Read 1 Corinthians 5 and 6 the whole chapters. Telling
    someone the Truth is love. If someone is going to hell and then you tell
    them they’re okay that’s not loving/love. 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 lists many
    sins along with the homosexuals so are you going to say those sins are
    okay to do? We were all born into this world as sinners but God/Jesus
    gave us the right to choose if we want to follow sin or follow Him/Jesus.
    All sin is wrong not just gay marriage and/or abortion which so many
    only want to talk about so that they don’t have to face their own sin.
    Drunkards go to hell so do you tell someone it’s okay to get drunk?
    No you don’t! You tell them to Repent/follow Christ. We must Repent!

  • Aaron Lindahl

    Levitical purity laws, (which are mistranslated in almost all English Bibles concerning homosexuality) do not apply to Christians, and so the people who bring up Leviticus to attack gay people with are gravely mistaken, not to mention utterly hypocritical since they ignore all other Levitical laws.

    Jesus and homosexuality:

    It is worthwhile to check the words attributed to Jesus by the author of the Gospel of Matthew. He created a comprehensive list of sins that would bring doom on a person: Matt 15:18-20: “…those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man…” It is even more worth noting that homosexual behavior is not one of the behaviors that is mentioned in this passage. The logical conclusion is that Jesus did not consider it a sin.

    The options open to a Christian:

    A Christian has two options with regard to the Christian Scriptures (New Testament):

    1. To accept a favorite (and safely familiar) English translation as accurately containing the words of the original authors. This is a simple and straightforward approach because biblical passages related to lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgender persons and transsexuals (LGBT) in English Bibles are universally condemning. No further effort is needed.

    2. To base the interpretation of these passages on the most ancient available Greek manuscripts of 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy. This is as close as we are able to get to the original autograph copies written by the author(s). This option is much more demanding because we find that only abusive, pagan, or wanton homosexual behavior is listed as a sin, not homosexuality in general. Even worse, a convincing case can be made that 1 Timothy was written by a second century forger, many decades after Paul was executed.

    If Paul had wanted to condemn homosexual behavior in general, the word for it at the time was paiderasste. What he did, rather than simply use one of the many existing, quite precise Greek terms for aspects of homosexuality (or for homosexuality in general) – words that he would have been quite aware of – is create an entirely new word.

    The word “arsenokoitai” in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy:

    “Arsenokoitai” is a Greek word that appears to have been uniquely created by Paul when he was writing 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. No record remains of any writer having using the term before Paul. It has been translated as “abusers of themselves with mankind” in the King James Version (KJV):

    “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    The KJV was finished 1611 CE when there was no single word in the English language that referred to homosexuals or homosexuality. The translators were forced to use this awkward phrase. The term “homosexual” was only created in the late 19th century.

    More recent versions of the Bible translate arsenokoitai here as:

    • “homosexuals,” (NASB);
    • “homosexual perversion,” (NEB);
    • “homosexual offenders,” (NIV).

    In doing this, they appear to have little respect or attention to the actual meaning of the original Greek verse. By using the term “homosexual” the translators changed the scope of the verse. The original Greek refers to men only; the English translation refers to both males and females; i.e. to gays and lesbians. We suspect that the temptation to attack lesbians overcame the translators’ desire to be accurate.

    The author of 1 Timothy also used “arsenokoitai.” The KJV translated it similarly:

    “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.”

    Christian theologians generally agree that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians circa 55 CE. However, they differ on the authorship and date of the three Pastoral Epistles — 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus.

    • Some scholars believe that Paul wrote the Pastoral epistles during the interval 62 to 64 CE just before his death.

    • Many other scholars believe that they were written up to 85 years after Paul’s execution, circa 100 to 150 CE by an unknown person who pretended to be Paul.

    What does “arsenokoitai” really mean?

    “Arsenokoitai” is made up of two parts: “arsen” means “man”; “koitai” means “beds.”

    Although the word in English Bibles is interpreted as referring to homosexuals, we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the word “paiderasste.” That was the standard Greek term at the time for sexual activity between males. We can conclude that he probably meant something different than people who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior.

    Many sources have speculated about the meaning of “arsenokoitai:”

    • “Homosexual offenders:” The NIV contains this phrase. Suppose for the moment that Paul had attacked “heterosexual offenders” or “heterosexual sexual offenders.” We would not interpret this today as a general condemnation of heterosexuality. It would be seen as an attack only on those heterosexuals who commit sexual offences. Perhaps the appropriate interpretation of this verse is that it does not condemn all homosexuals. Rather it condemns only those homosexuals who engage in sexual offences (e.g. child sexual abuse, rape, unsafe sex, manipulative sex, coercive sex, etc).

    • Male prostitutes in Pagan temples: One source states that the Septuagint (an ancient, pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek made between the 3rd and 1st centuryBCE) translated the Hebrew “quadesh” in I Kings 14:24, 15:12 and 22:46 into a Greek word somewhat similar to “arsenokoitai.” This passage referred to “male temple prostitutes” — people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples. Some leaders in the early Christian church also thought 1 Corinthians was referring to temple prostitutes. Some authorities believe that it simply means male prostitutes with female customers – a practice which appears to have been a common practice in the Roman empire.

    • Pimp: Another source refers to other writings, written later than 1 Corinthians, which contains the word “arsenokoitai:” This includes the Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John, and Theophilus of Antioch’s Ad Autolycum. The source suggests that the term refers “to some kind of economic exploitation by means of sex (but not necessarily homosexual sex).” Probably “pimp” or “man living off of the avails of prostitution” would be the closest English translations. It is worth noting that “Much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word arsenokoitai.”

    • Masturbators. At the time of Martin Luther, “arsenokoitai” was universally interpreted as masturbator. But by the 20th century, masturbation had become a more generally accepted behavior. So, new translations abandoned references to masturbators and switched the attack to homosexuals. The last religious writing in English that interpreted 1 Corinthians 6:9 as referring to masturbation is believed to be the [Roman] Catholic Encyclopedia of 1967.

    • Abusive pedophiles: Many would consider “malakoi” — the word preceding “arsenokoitai,” in 1 Corinthians — to refer to a catamite: a boy or young male who engaged in sexual activities with men. Such boys were often slaves, owned by rich men as sex partners. The second term might then refer to the men who engaged in sex with the catamites. That is, they were abusive pedophiles or hebephiles. The New American Bible contains a footnote which reads:

    “The Greek word translated as ‘boy prostitutes’ [in 1 Cor. 6:9] designated catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world….The term translated ‘practicing homosexuals’ refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys.”

    In their footnote, the translators recognize that the term refers to abusive male pedophiles, but apparently cannot resist the temptation to attack all homosexuals — both gays and lesbians, non-abusive and abusive.

    Harper’s Bible Commentary (1998) states that the passage refers to:

    “… both the effeminate male prostitute and his partner who hires him to satisfy sexual needs. The two terms used here for homosexuality… specify a special form of pederasty that was generally disapproved of in Greco-Roman and Jewish Literature.”

    Many religious scholars agree that the center portion of 6:9 might be accurately translated as: “male child abusers and the boys that they sexually abuse.” i.e. the two behaviors probably relate to male pedophiles who are also child rapists, and the male children that they victimize. The verse would then refer to the crime of child sexual abuse and has no relation to homosexuality in the normal sense of the term: i.e. to consensual sexual relations between adults of the same gender.

    Male prostitutes: One scholar has provided an interesting analysis of 1 Corinthians. He noticed a pattern in verse 9 and 10. They are composed up of pairs or triads of related groups of people:

    The lawless & disobedient: two near synonyms

    The ungodly & sinners: also two near synonyms

    The unholy & profane: two synonyms

    The murderers of fathers & murderers of mothers & manslayers: three kinds of murderers

    Whoremongers & “arsenokoitai” & menstealers

    Liars & perjurers etc.: again, two near synonyms.

    From the repeated pairs or triads made up of synonyms or near synonyms, one might expect that whoremongers, “malakoi arsenokoitai,” and menstealers are interconnected with a common theme — just like the other pairs and triads in the list.

    In the original Greek, the first of the three words is “pornov.” An online Greek lexicon notes that this is Strong’s Number 4205, and was derived from the Greek word “pernemi” which means to sell. Its meanings are:

    A man who prostitutes his body to another’s lust for hire.

    A male prostitute.

    A man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator.

    The second term is “arsenokoitai” which has not been given a Strong Number because it is a made-up word that is almost never found in the Greek language other than in 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians.

    The last of the three words is “andrapodistes,” the stem of the word andrapodistai. It is Strong’s Number 405 which means:

    A slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer — one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery or who steals the slaves of others and sells them.

    If we assume that the three words refer to a common theme, as the other five groups are, then we have to look for some sense which the words have in common. Cannon suggests:

    “pornoi” refers to an enslaved male prostitute.

    “arsenokoitai” refers to a man who forces sex on an enslaved male prostitute

    “andrapodistes” refers to a person who kidnaps and enslaves people.

    The common theme is slavery. Cannon suggests a translation: “It is as if Paul were saying, ‘male prostitutes, men who sleep with them, and slave dealers who procure them’.” That is, all three words deal with slavery. They are unrelated to homosexual behavior in the modern sense of the term i.e. consensual sex between persons of the same sex.

    • A boy sex slave

    Again, the common theme is slavery.

    Translating “arsenokoitai” as a boy who is kept as a sex slave has some support in at least two Bible translations:

    As noted above, a footnote in the New American Bible (NAB), interprets “arsenokoitai” as a ” boy prostitute.”

    The Jerusalem Bible translates the triad in 1 Timothy as: “those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men.” In 1 Corinthians 6:9 the same word “arsenokoitai” is translated as “catamite.”

    An acurate translation of 1 Timothy 1:10 would be: “…male prostitutes, boys who have sex with men, and slave dealers who enslave them both.”

    As you may have observed by now, attempts to distort the Bible into a message of hate are badly misguided. The passages in Leviticus and Paul’s three letters specifically apply to people engaging in ritual activity with pagan priests or sacred prostitutes. The references to ‘sodomites’ in Deuteronomy, etc., are a clear error in translation that refer to the same thing. The Sodom and Gomorrah references clearly refer to inhospitality and not to homosexuality at all.

    Here’s the most fundamental weakness in such thinking: the Bible does not condemn lesbians.There is a proscription against women wearing men’s clothing, and a letter from Paul ‘mentions’ “women [who] did change the natural use into that which is against nature” – whatever that means – but nothing else. Any translations that apply to ‘homosexuals’ (i.e., including females as well as males) are mis-translations, possibly intentional, certainly political.

    So it is entirely within Christ’s teachings to welcome and celebrate the unique way that God created homosexuals, and to encourage them to find another to marry and live a monogamous life with, rather than to condemn and/or cast them out, which almost inevitably leads to despair, and a promiscuous and dangerous lifestyle in an attempt to gain the physical affection and love they were denied.

  • Aaron Lindahl

    When the original Hebrew and Greek word are studied without any bias, more and more Biblical scholars now agree that actually the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is only a sin, when practiced in an abusive, coercive, or pagan setting…. which is why entire denominations now agree on this. When it is within the setting of a monogamous joining of two adult souls, it is a holy thing of beauty. Sometimes the protection of ‘innocence’ is only the coddling and nurturing of ‘ignorance’ and/or ‘prejudice’.

    Homosexual love is just as capable of virtue and vice as heterosexual love. Excluding that love from institutional recognition is prejudicial and deceptive. It reinforces irrational, biological disgusts of some heterosexuals that reflect more their own sexuality and social conditioning than any moral truth, and reinforces a crude fear of otherness barely any different than the primal fears of foreigners, other races, or menstrual blood.

    In telling someone they are homosexual, gay people are not revealing a quirky bedroom desire that’s impolite to mention in casual conversation, and to treat them like that’s what they are doing demeans their entire love orientation, and disrespects some of the most important relationships and desires for love and companionship in their lives. This is why the homophobic cop out that goes, “I don’t care what people do in their bedrooms, I just do not want to know about it” is so insulting to gays. Gays are not telling people about their sex lives when they tell them about their sexual orientation. They are telling them about a much deeper and much more central part of their identity—again, something as important to them as being straight is to a straight person.

    The net sum gains of gay marriage: More marriages, more commitment, fidelity, love, self-sacrifice, responsibility among homosexuals. More stable homes for children. Less gays in sexually doomed marriages to straights with the concomitant divorces. No exclusion of citizens based on morally irrelevant factors from participating in cultural institutions. No “separate but equal” standards that make for second class citizens. Love and commitment are more clearly defined as the core of marriage rather than degrading economics or social transaction concerns that disregard individual happiness.

    All of this is increase in freedom for all to pursue their own happiness as guaranteed by our Constitution. It’s a further strike against slavery to our overly-ingrained tendencies of our species to be traditionalistic and fearful of Otherness. It’s a teaching instrument for us to overcome our irrational disgusts and learn to separate knee jerk aversions from moral repulsion, which is an increase in our abilities to assess issues fairly, rationally, and only according to relevant distinctions.

    It means less promiscuity (if decreasing promiscuity is a good you want), decreasing the chances of sexual diseases and emotional and relational instability. Mainstreaming gays, makes them happier, cuts down on their suicides, gives young people who are gay more confidence that they can be accepted for who they are in the larger culture and that they can pursue their dreams and consummate their loves just as well as if they were straight.

    Many a homophobic religious person has infamously claimed that when it comes to gays he “loves the sinner but hates the sin” and many a defender of the full dignity and ethical lives of gay people has judged such a compromised offer of love inadequate (if not insincere).

    To gay people, who understand their homosexuality as a key part of their very psycho-sexual identity—which is as fundamental to their self-conception as heterosexuality is to straight people—their homosexuality is not just a “behavior” but a rather fundamental expression of themselves with far reaching consequences for their entire lives.

    Of course, that is not to say that being gay is the only important, identity-forming thing in their lives—anymore than a heterosexual person’s straightness is the only thing in his or her life which contributes in an essential way to his or her identity. Gay people want and deserve both to not be belittled by being reduced to being only their sexuality as though they were not also full people in the whole other range of ways that straight people are, and at the same time they want and deserve not to have their sexuality treated like just an unusual kinky fetish, a dirty secret, or an embarrassing “unnatural”, “disordered” urge which they “struggle to control”.

    How can one hate a fundamental, non-malevolent, harmless, loving, and psychologically orienting, part of a person while claiming that they simultaneously love that person. Do they even grasp what the word love means? Do they really have a good grasp on what either accepting or, minimally, respecting someone even means? Loving, or, at least, accepting and honoring gays as equal, means not hating a central part of their identities..

    Matthew 7:1-5

    “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

    Proverbs 10:12

    “Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.”

    Ephesians 4:2

    “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.”

    James 4:12

    “There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”

    Romans 14:1-13

    “As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”

    Titus 3:2-7

    “To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior..”

    James 4:11-12

    “Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”

    Romans 12:16-19

    “Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God..”

    1 Corinthians 13:1-8

    “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful..”

    Matthew 6:14-15

    “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

    Romans 12:10

    “Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves.”

    1st John 4:7-8

    “Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

    Matthew 22:36-39

    “Teacher,” he asked, “which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and the most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’”

    1 John 4:20

    “If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.”

    John 13:34-35

    “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    Matthew 5:22

    “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”

    1 Peter 4:8

    “Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.”

    Romans 12:8

    “Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.”

    Luke 6:37

    “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven..”

    John 3:17

    “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him.”

    The Pharisees, a popular Jewish renewal movement in the time of Jesus, accepted into their fellowship only men who adopted priestly purity laws in daily life. The Pharisees looked down upon the majority of the Jews as “the people of the land,” the un-spiritual masses, as many people do today upon gay people.The Essenes, who gathered in Qumran near the Dead Sea, took exclusion to a level far beyond the Pharisaic standard. Entrance into the Essene community required, not only that one be a male who practiced priestly purity, but virtual separation from all who were not part of their monastic community. Not only were outsiders unwelcome in the Essene fellowship, but also they had nothing to look forward to from the Lord other than fiery judgment.

    When contrasted to the exclusionary practices of the Pharisees and the Essenes, Jesus’ teachings of openness, acceptance, and love to common people – even those who were ritually unclean or regarded as sinners – stands out starkly.

    As Jesus said in John 8:7 – “..Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

    These teachings of love, non-judgement, and acceptance towards others over how they are naturally born, and who they naturally love and wish to join their souls with, is what marks Christians apart from our modern day equivalent of the Pharisees.

  • Aaron Lindahl

    I begin with the birthplace of our own Western Civilization: Greek and Roman civilization, and then go into a detailed history of the Church. Homosexuality flourished for over 1,300 years within the Greek culture, and for almost 900 years of Roman culture without causing any ‘downfall’ of civilization as some people claim will happen if gay people are allowed to marry each other.

    Yet, within a little over 100 years after Christians gained political dominance in Rome, the entire civilization collapsed… after they had forbade freedom of religion under pain of death, freedom of thought under pain of death, shut down the Olympics, the theaters, the gymnasiums, and schools of learning.

    Knowledge of how to create life-like artwork and sculpture was lost, scientific knowledge and civic engineering withered and died. They basically killed civic culture and classical civilization. The public libraries were either closed or abandoned since within only 2 generations the majority of the people had lost the ability to read.. after all, you were told the world was going to end at any moment, and that you only needed to know what your priest or pastor told you to believe, you were told that interest in secular knowledge were no longer advisable. The ancient world had been a relatively tolerant place in the world of religion. There were occasional bursts of persecution of this or that sect but as a rule many religions existed side by side.

    The consensus among modern historians is that republican Rome, like classical Greece, was tolerant of same-sex relationships. Moreover, the Romans accorded same-sex unions the legal or cultural status of marriages. To take one early example, Cicero, the great Roman lawyer and orator, persuaded Curio the Elder to honor the debts that Curio’s son had incurred on behalf of Antonius, to whom the son was, in Cicero’s words, “united in a stable and permanent marriage, just as if he had given him a matron’s stola.” (The stola was garb distinctively reserved for a married Roman woman. “Te a meretricio quaestu abduxit et, tamquam stolam dedisset, in matrimonio stabili et certo collocavit.”)

    Cicero’s legalistic advice shows that same-sex relationships were not only socially accepted among Roman society, but that they also potentially carried with them legal obligations and consequences, and hence were marriages as we understand the term. Records describing Roman social customs during the imperial period survive in far greater number, at least in part because many, if not most, of the emperors enjoyed well-documented relationships, some of them legally sanctioned marriages-with other men. The evidence suggests that during the same general time frame when companionate long-term marriages were being institutionalized for different-sex couples, they were likewise becoming more common for same-sex couples, who were entering into relationships akin to those discussed in Plato’s Symposium.

    By the time of the early Empire the stereotyped roles of [sexually active] “lover” and [sexually passive] “beloved” no longer seem to be the only model for homosexual lovers. Many homosexual relationships were permanent and exclusive. Among the lower classes informal unions like that of Giton and Encolpius may have predominated, but marriages between males or between females were legal and familiar among the upper classes…. By the time of the early Empire references to gay marriages are commonplace. The biographer of Elagabalus maintains that after the emperor’s marriage to an athlete from Smyrna, any male who wished to advance at the imperial court either had to have a husband or pretend that he did.

    Martial and Juvenal both mention same-sex public ceremonies involving the families, dowries, and legal niceties. It is clear that not only aristocrats were involved: a cymbal player is mentioned by Juvenal. Martial points out that both men involved in one ceremony were thoroughly masculine (“The bearded Callistratus married the rugged Afer”) and that the marriage took place under the same law that regulated marriage between men and women. Nero married two men in succession, both in public ceremonies with the ritual appropriate to legal marriage. At least one of these unions was recognized by Greeks and Romans, and the spouse was accorded the honors of an empress …. One of the men, Sporus, accompanied Nero to public functions, where the emperor would embrace him affectionately. He remained with Nero throughout his reign and stood by him as he died.

    Same-sex unions were noted in popular Roman culture and literature as well. The novel Babylonica, an early version of the pulp romance, had a subplot involving the passion of Egypt’s Queen Berenice for the beautiful Mesopotamia, who was snatched from her. After one of the Queen’s servants rescued Mesopotamia from her abductors, “‘Berenice married Mesopotamia, and there was war between [the abductor] and Berenice on her account.’ ” Of even greater renown, the Emperor Hadrian’s love for Antinous attained the status of legend, acclaimed for generations in sculpture, architecture, painting, coins, and literature.

    The popularity of Hadrian and Antinous as a couple, was likely due to the prevalence of same-sex couples in popular romantic literature of the time. Everywhere in the fiction of the Empire-from lyric poetry to popular novels-gay couples and their love appear on a completely equal footing with their heterosexual counterparts.

    During the years 342 CE to 395 CE all this changed when Christianity established itself as the only religion in the Roman Empire and launched an all out campaign of religious terror against all other beliefs. Even though Christians had suffered from persecution from time to time, this does not justify what they did upon coming to political dominance, and had gained the ear of an emperor, whose word was law.

    It was not until the Roman world was forcibly converted, and succumbed to an unforgiving and dictatorship-like form of Christianity (completely unlike the first 3 centuries of a peaceful and loving form of Christianity), that we began to embark upon the Dark Ages.


    On December 16, 342 AD, the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans, under advice from their bishops, had issued the following edict.. a law specifically outlawing marriages between men, which had previously been allowed, and reads as follows:

    “When a man marries in the manner of a woman, a woman about to renounce men, what does he wish, when sex has lost its significance; when the crime is one which it is not profitable to know; when Venus is changed into another form; when love is sought and not found? We order the statutes to arise, the laws to be armed with an avenging sword, that those infamous persons who are now, or who hereafter may be guilty, shall be subjected to exquisite punishment.” (Theodosian Code 9.7.3)

    Then, 48 years later, Christian emperors Theodosius and Arcadius on Aug 6, 390, under the advice of their bishops, issued the following edict.. an edict that would begin an evil persecution towards gay people that would last well over a thousand years:

    “All persons who have the shameful custom of condemning a man’s body, acting the part of a woman’s to the sufferance of alien sex (for they appear not to be different from women), shall expiate a crime of this kind by being burned to death in the public sight of the people.” -Codex Theodosius IX. Vii. 6

    What follows are quotes from the legal code of the Roman Empire as set forth by the Emperor Theodosius at the request of Christian leaders to crush competing religions. The legal persecution of non-Christian religions by Rome marked the beginning of a wave of religious terror that would remain in place until the eighteenth century.


    “All writings whatever which Porphyry or anyone else has written against the Christian religion, in the possession of whomsoever they shall be found, shall be committed to the fire.” — Emperor Theodosius I.


    “We command that all those proved to be devoting themselves to sacrificing or worshipping images be subject to the penalty of death.” — Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.6

    “It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the father, Son and Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. … The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative.” — Codex Theodosianus, XVI.1.2.


    “No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. … The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword.” — Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4

    “The ability and right of making wills shall be taken from those who turn from Christians to pagans, and the testament of such an one, if he made any, shall be abrogated after his death.”– Codex Theodosianus, XVI.7.1.


    “It is decreed that in all places and all cities the [pagan] temples should be closed at once, and after a general warning, the opportunity of sinning be taken from the wicked. We decree also that we shall cease from making sacrifices. And if anyone has committed such a crime, let him be stricken with the avenging sword. And we decree that the property of the one executed shall be claimed by the city, and that rulers of the provinces be punished in the same way, if they neglect to punish such crimes.”– Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.4.


    “What you are ignorant of, we know from the Word of God. And what you try to infer, we have established as truth from the very Wisdom of God.” – Bishop Ambrose replies
    on behalf of the emperor.

    ‘Let us Christians prefer the simplicity of our faith to the demonstrations of human reason … For to spend much time on research about the essence of things would not serve the edification of the Church.’ –
    St Basil.

    For a century after Constantine’s revolution, the ‘battle of ideas’ was
    waged yet secular tolerance ultimately could be no match to a fanatical

    “What purpose does knowledge serve – for as to knowledge of natural causes, what blessing is there for me if I should know where the Nile rises, or whatever else under the heavens the ‘scientists’ rave about?”

    Thus wrote Lucius Lactantius the first Latin ‘theologian’ and propagandist for Constantine. Appointed tutor to the emperor’s son Crispus – a job he lost when Constantine had his son executed for adultery with his stepmother – Lactantius recorded that Constantine was “a model of Christian virtue and holiness” (De Mortibus Persecutorum).

    In the new world of the Christian empire, in which scientific rationalism
    was to be condemned as demonic, Constantine’s despotism and Lactantius’s sycophantic lies were indeed ‘model’ for what was to come.

    For the first 300 years of Christianity, gay people were not persecuted, but instead were welcomed into the Church… but as soon as the bishops of the newly ‘Christian’ emperors had gained political dominance, look how quickly and brutally things changed.. this is why our Founding Fathers wisely chose to separate Church and State:

    305- 306 – Council of Elvira (now Granada, Spain). This council was representative of the Western European Church and among other things, it barred homosexuals the right to Communion.

    314 – Council of Ancyra (now Ankara, Turkey). This council was representative of the Eastern European Church and it excluded the Sacraments for 15 years to unmarried men under the age of 20 who were caught in homosexual acts, and excluded the man for life if he was married and over the age of 50.

    342 – Under advice from their bishops, the first law against same-sex marriage was promulgated by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans.

    390 – Under advice from their bishops, Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public.

    498 – In spite of the laws against homosexuality, the Christian emperors continued to collect taxes on male prostitutes until the reign of Anastasius I, who finally abolishes the tax.

    529 – The Christian emperor Justinian I (527–565) made homosexuals a public scapegoat for problems such as “famines,earthquakes, and pestilences.”

    589 – The Visigothic kingdom in Spain, is converted from Arianism to Catholicism. This conversion leads to a revision of the law to conform to those of Catholic countries. These revisions include provisions for the persecution of gays and Jews.

    693 – In Iberia, Visigothic ruler Egica of Hispania and Septimania, demanded that a Church council confront the occurrence of homosexuality in the Kingdom. The Sixteenth Council of Toledo issued a statement in response, which was adopted by Egica, stating that homosexual acts be punished by castration, exclusion from Communion, hair shearing, one hundred stripes of the lash, and banishment into exile.

    1120 – Baldwin II of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, convenes the Council of Nablus to address the vices within the Kingdom. The Council calls for the burning of individuals who perpetually commit homosexual acts.

    1179 – The Third Lateran Council of Rome issues a decree for the excommunication of homosexuals.

    1232 – Pope Gregory IX starts the Inquisition in the Italian City-States. Some cities called for banishment and/or amputation as punishments for 1st- and 2nd-offending homosexuals and burning for the 3rd or habitual offenders.

    1260 – In France, first-offending homosexuals lost their testicles, second offenders lost their member, and third offenders were burned. Women caught in same-sex acts could be mutilated and executed as well.

    1265 – Thomas Aquinas argues that homosexuality is second only to murder in the ranking of sins.

    1283 – The French Civil Code dictated that convicted homosexuals should not only be burned but also that their property would be forfeited.

    1370s – Jan van Aersdone and Willem Case were two men executed in Antwerp in the 1370s. The charge against them was same gender intercourse. Aersdone and Case stand out because records of their names have survived.

    1432 – In Florence the first organization specifically intended to prosecute homosexuality is established, the “Night Officials”, which over the next 70 years arrest about 10,000 men and youths.

    1451 – Pope Nicholas V enables the papal Inquisition to persecute men who practice homosexuality.

    1475 – In Peru, a chronicle written under the Capac Yupanqui government describes the persecution of homosexuals with public burnings and destruction of homes (a practice usually reserved for conquered tribes).

    1483 – The Spanish Inquisition begins. Homosexuals were stoned, castrated, and burned. Between 1540 and 1700, more than 1,600 people were prosecuted for homosexuality.

    1532 – Holy Roman Empire makes homosexuality punishable by death.

    1533 – King Henry VIII passes the Buggery Act 1533 making anal intercourse punishable by death throughout England.

    1620 – Brandenburg-Prussia criminalizes homosexuality, making it punishable by death.

    1721 – Catherina Margaretha Linck is executed for lesbianism in Germany.

    1836 – The last known execution for homosexuality in Great Britain. James Pratt and John Smith are hanged at Newgate prison, London after being caught together in private lodgings.

    1895 – The trial of Oscar Wilde results in his being prosecuted under the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 for “gross indecency” for having sex with other males, and is sentenced to two years hard labor in prison, ruining his health.

    1903 – In New York on 21 February 1903, New York police conducted the first United States recorded raid on a gay bathhouse, the Ariston Hotel Baths. 26 men were arrested and 12 brought to trial on sodomy charges; 7 men received sentences ranging from 4 to 20 years in prison.

    1945 – Upon the liberation of Nazi concentration camps by Allied forces, those who were interned for homosexuality, and who miraculously survived.. are not freed, but required to serve out the full term of their sentences under Paragraph 175.

    1954 – June 7th –Mathematical computer genius and WW2 hero Alan Turing commits suicide by cyanide poisoning, 18 months after being given a choice between two years in prison or libido-reducing hormone treatment for a year as a punishment for homosexuality.

  • Karla

    Aaron Lindahl-Read Romans 1:18-32. Bible is clear homosexuality is wrong
    just like getting drunk is wrong! Many try to justify drinkng as well saying that
    Jesus made wine but the Bible says don’t get drunk with/on strong wine plus
    the wine Jesus made was new wine/from the fruit of the vine/diluted and was
    made for symbolic reasons not to get drunk. John 2:10 also says the cheaper
    wine was brought out last so best for last refers to poorer/watered down wine.

  • Aaron Lindahl

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  • Karla

    Aaron Lindahl- Thank you for all of the feedback. Love people yes but
    love them in Truth. I do appreciate that you read the Bible. God bless.

  • Aaron Lindahl

    Hi Karla, I disagree..

    Romans 1:26-27

    “Through this, God gave them over to degrading passions; their women exchanged the natural use into one against nature, likewise also the males left the natural use of the female, burned in their lust for each other, males in males, committing an unseemliness, receiving in themselves the appropriate reward for their error.”

    About the words “degrading passions:” The Greek phrase translated as “vile affections” in the King James Version of the Bible has also been translated into English as:

    “vile affections and degrading passions” (Amplified Bible)

    “dishonorable passions” (English Standard Version)

    “degrading passions” (New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, & New Revised Standard Version)

    “shameful lusts” (New International Version)

    “shameful desires” (New Living Translation)

    “evil things” (Living Bible)

    “shameful affections” (Rheims New Testament)

    “immoral, unnatural drives” (The Great Book: The New Testament in Plain English)

    However, in the original Greek, the phrase does not mean “passions” or “lust” as people experienced in normal, day-to-day living — the type of emotion that one encounters in a marriage or sexually active relationship. It refers to the frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music.” It describes the results of ritual sexual orgies as performed in many Pagan settings at the time. Paul is referring here to Pagan fertility cult worship prevalent in Rome at the time.

    About the words “exchanged,” “leaving,” “change,” and “abandoned:” These words are important, because they precisely describe the people about whom Paul is talking. From the text, he is obviously writing about women with a heterosexual orientation, who had previously engaged in only heterosexual sex, who had subsequently “exchanged” their normal/inborn behaviors for same-sex activities. That is, they deviated from their heterosexual orientation and engaged in sexual behavior with other women. Similarly, he describes men with a heterosexual orientation who had “abandoned” their normal/inborn behaviors and engaged in same-sex activities. In both cases, he is describing individuals with a heterosexual orientation, who were engaging in same-sex behavior — in violation of their natural desires. In normal life, these are very unusual activities, because heterosexuals typically have a strong aversion to engaging in same-sex behavior. However, with the peer pressure, expectations, drugs, alcohol and other stimulants present in Pagan sex rituals at the time, they appear to have abandoned their normal feelings of abhorrence and engaged in same-sex behavior.

    About the word “natural” : The operative term in Paul’s original Greek is “phooskos”, meaning “inborn”, “produced by nature” , “agreeable to nature”.

    About the word “against nature,” “unnatural,” etc: The Greek phrase “para physin” is commonly translated into the English as:

    “unnatural and abnormal” (Amplified Bible)

    “contrary to nature” (English Standard Version)

    “against nature” (King James Version, Rheims New Testament)

    “sin with each other” (Living Bible)

    “unnatural” (New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, New International Version, New Revised Standard Version)

    “immoral, unnatural drives” (The Great Book: The New Testament in Plain English)

    These are not accurate translations. They demonstrate prejudice on the part of the translators. “Unnatural” implies that the act is something that is to be morally condemned. The word “unconventional” would have been a more precise word for translators to use.

    The biggest mistake Christians make with Paul’s epistle to the church at Rome is in their failure to comprehend Romans 1:7… Paul’s epistle was addressed to first century Rome, not twenty-first century Europe or North America, etc.. Am I saying that the epistle doesn’t apply to us? Of course not: it certainly applies to every age and nation. But what verse 7 reminds us is that when we read the epistle, we need to keep in mind that it was written to first century Rome, and applies first and foremost to the situations that were extant then.

    So what was going on in Rome? The ancient Greek and Roman concept of what was “normal” and what was moral was quite different from ours. Although such concepts as sexual orientation had not been studied or named, in behavior, both the Greek and Roman empires expected everyone to be bisexual. There were very specific cultural rules regarding how this worked. A woman, for example, had one husband, and was not permitted sexual contact with any other male. But sexual contact with other women was permitted and even expected. For men, the rules permitted him wives, and perhaps concubines, depending on his wealth. But an adult man would also be “attached” to an adolescent male, to whom he would be teacher, mentor and lover. An example of this type of relationship can be seen in Matthew chapter 8. The King James Version incorrectly refers to the centurion’s “servant.” The Greek does not say servant. It says “boy.” Not his son, because a man wouldn’t refer to his son with the word παις. Rather, this was the common word used by a Greek or Roman to refer to his adolescent partner. Jesus grew up under Roman occupation.There is no way He wouldn’t have known the nature of this relationship. He said not a word about it, but admired the centurion’s faith and healed the boy.

    Any man or women who had relations with only one gender in Roman society would have been thought odd or even abnormal.

    In the above verses, we can see that Paul spoke of the Roman women “exchanging” the natural use for one that was against nature. Now please understand what Paul meant by nature: He was not speaking of nature as creation. Indeed, homosexuality, as well as bisexuality, exists throughout nature, in virtually every species of animal. What Paul was addressing was the Roman’s own nature, what we today would call their sexual orientation. Their society was expecting them to trade their own orientation, whatever it might have been, for a bisexual orientation. The men were doing the same thing. And what they were doing was indecent and an error, not because of the concept of homosexuality, but because they were violating the way they were created.

    Romans chapter one, as a whole, deals with pagan Rome’s attempts to turn the creation into a god, worshiping the things created rather than the One who created them. They were attempting to remake that creation in their own design, by ignoring the inborn sexual orientation of the people, and expecting them to live bisexually. This chapter is not about homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, but rather about the error of trying to change the way we were created. God has created each of us with a sexual orientation, and for us to attempt to change it into another orientation is, in effect, telling God that He created us wrong. But if it was wrong for heterosexuals and homosexuals in the first century to try to be bisexuals, then it is equally wrong, and for the same reasons, for homosexuals in the twenty-first century to try to be heterosexuals, or vice-versa.

    There are some who would doubt that heterosexuals in the first century would live a bisexual lifestyle simply to satisfy the misguided expectations of society. To those people we say this: Look around you… all over the world there are homosexual people trying to live a heterosexual lifestyle for exactly the same reason. And the societies and the religions trying to force them to do so are just as misguided. The same God who created homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality through- out the entire animal kingdom, did the same thing in us.

  • Aaron Lindahl

    Hi Karla, thank you and I wish both Christ’s blessings upon you and a Happy New Year!!

  • Karla

    Aaron-Same to you! Happy New Year…have a great year! God bless.

  • Frank

    Every single one of those arguments have been debunked ad nauseum. Homosexual behavior in any form will always be a sin and marriage will always be between a man and a woman. Nothing will or can ever change that.

  • You don’t have a single rational and secular reason for opposing marriage equality.

    We’ve reviewed the issue with you, Larry, but every argument has an exponent and a recipient, and the recipient has to have the chops to process the argument. Even relatively simple points about the fallacies incorporated into the term ‘discrimination’ have proved beyond you.

    We can explain this to you. We cannot comprehend it for you.

  • Larry

    Art, you are full of crap and are a genuinely unpleasant human being.

    You have nothing except for cheap insults, including the one which got your first post deleted. If you had something you would have provided at least one in response to my challenge to Doc. But you didn’t.
    Your response is very much like those who defend online nonsense
    1. Creamed Mush with Fog Sauce — Never provide evidence for your assertions. In fact, respond to demands for evidence the way Dracula responds to crucifixes. Do anything you can to avoid it. Throw insults. Change the subject. Obfuscate. Laugh derisively. Claim you already gave the evidence or that someone else did. But never provide any evidence yourself (unless you provide an incomplete or incomprehensible citation along with it).

    There is nothing to explain about your position. You are a bigot who likes to hide behind religious belief to give your animosity social sanction. Its pretty clear. Your playbook is woefully limited and rather brain-dead:

    1. You have the question begging ones such as complaints about “redefining marriage”, “tradition” and “upholding traditional marriage”. All of which are sub-rosa religious appeals and fail to note why any of those definitions/ traditions need to be preserved. Your notion of “traditional marriage” is a bigger redefinition than the current one used by our laws.

    2. You can pretend marriage is solely a religious thing. But that is outright fiction.

    3. You have the stupid “procreation argument” which demeans and insults all those currently married and pretends infertile couples, non-biological or non-marital children have no legal rights or existence. Even dumber is the fact that banning gay marriage has NO RELATION WHATSOEVER TO HAVING CHILDREN OR FAMILIES.

    4. You can ignore over 2 centuries years of SCOTUS judicial review and pretend that the judiciary does not have a role in striking down discriminatory laws.

    5. The grab bag of religious stupid. Where you claim the separation of church and state does not exist, gay marriage infringes on your religious freedom, or God demands it so!!!.

    Everything else is just you expressing one bigoted statement after another in an open (religious approved) fashion.

  • Larry

    I am not the one who got their post deleted due to uncivil language. 🙂

  • These groups may have seen more acceptance among some people but will that change the reality of what they are doing? Has God changed His view? I’m not aware of any change on His part. He still condemns it and I agree with God. We need to be on the same page with God and not be so concerned what man thinks. Man will not be our final judge. God will! When we receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and turn away from sin and rebellion then we will walk in His grace and know His peace and truth which will indeed set us free.

  • bqrq

    Those who support same sex marriage intentionally encourage the practice of sodomy among young men, but not necessarily young women. Gay marriage advocates usually support sodomy for other people’s sons but not for their own sons, and definitely not for their daughters. Instead they promote sodomy for other peoples children and this is the reason why they embrace same sex marriage. Likewise they do not desire sodomy for their own mother and father. They hope that young women will embrace homosexuality with the understanding that females can be gay without practicing sodomy. Same sex marriage is nothing more than an attempt to somehow “moralize” and “normalize” the practice of sodomy among young men who are not members of one’s own family.

  • bqrq

    Dear Larry,
    Could you explain to us how and why it is morally righteous to practice sodomy? Where is the love, grace and decency? How does it elevate and improve the lives of young people and their families, and society as a whole? Where is the goodness, hope, faith and life-affirming benefits that derive from sodomy? Please help us to understand why it is morally righteous to teach our children to embrace “gay marriage” ?

  • Larry

    Because its none of your goddamn business what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms, nor the business of our civil laws. Because religious freedom means I never have to give a flying crap what you think God wants for people.

    Your obvious bigotry is far more harmful to others than anything two adults do when expressing their emotional bonds with each other.

    It is morally righteous to teach children about marriage equality because you can’t pretend gay couples, especially the ones with children of their own, don’t exist. You can’t hand wave their existence away nor try to banish them to the dark corners of society.

    If you find the existence and presence of gay people and their families to be an affront to your religious and moral beliefs, tough crap. You can join the rest of the people out there who have to stifle their bigotry in public in order to maintain a level of civility. .

  • Ben in Oakland

    ” He still condemns it and I agree with God.”

    And therein you have the whole problem. An over-identification with God, one which I am sure comforts and thrills you to have. Let me fix it for you.

    “I still condemn it, and God agrees with me.”

  • Ben in Oakland

    Sometimes, words fail even me.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Sometimes, words fail even me. congratulations. you have managed twice.

  • bqrq

    Larry said;
    “…..It is morally righteous to teach children about marriage equality because you can’t pretend gay couples, especially the ones with children of their own, don’t exist…”

    Dear Larry,
    It is a mortal sin to teach children and young people to embrace and practice a lifestyle of sexual immorality. Every parent has a moral obligation to protect their children from adult predators who fervently clamor to pervert and ruin the lives of our children by persuading them to abandon God.

    It is foolish and sinful to ignore traditional morality, common decency and serious health consequences, while continuing to push the practice of sodomy on other people’s sons.

  • bqrq

    Regarding the morality of sodomy, Larry said:
    “…….its none of your goddamn business what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms…..”

    Dear Larry,
    Your comment reflects the generally accepted and vacuous “moral” justification for sodomy which lacks any semblance of moral insight, consideration of natural law, intellectual justification, and respect for the legitimate concerns of parents.

    As you know, the overwhelming majority of gay men are far more motivated to pursue sodomy and much less inclined towards marriage and children. The primary purpose of gay marriage is to somehow normalize and moralize the practice of sodomy in the minds of the general public, so that the issue of “marriage” can then be used as tool to recruit young men (other people’s sons) to participate in the practice with other gay men.

    That said, most of us would agree that there should be certain limits on sodomy such as the legal age of consent and always using heavy-duty latex condoms (preferably two).