• Ann

    There is no “gay marriage” or “straight marriage” — only equality or no equality. Marriage is marriage.

  • Frank

    Only a man and woman can ever make a marriage. Anything else is less than and sinful. No getting around that ever.

  • Larry

    And since no law of our land has to recognize or evaluate what your religion considers sinful, it is an irrelevancy. Between you and your God. Nobody else has to care.

  • Fourth Valley

    That’s ridiculous!! Everyone knows it’s only REALLY marriage if a dowry of 19 golden mithqals is paid. And you don’t even bring up the requirement for parental approval. You know nothing of true marriage.

  • Marriage is a misnomer. The union of a man and woman is sealed when full sexual intercourse has taken place and they become one flesh. Everything else is window dressing.

    Same sex unions are an abomination.

    The only good thing about this is that it’s another sign of the end and God’s fiery anger is building, just as it was before The Flood.

  • J.C. Samuelson

    You’re entitled to your value judgments, of course, but even if homosexual marriage constitutes sin – a violation of your god’s law (1 John 3:4) – the role of the SCOTUS is to adjudicate issues concerning secular law. This is something to be thankful for.

  • Larry

    Dammit! My father in law only paid me 8 brass mithquals and a jug of rice spirits distilled in his basement. I got robbed!

    Too late now. What few don’t realize is that most dowry arrangements have the dreaded “no backsies” clause.

  • ben in oakland

    Oooooohhhhhhh! I’m scawed. I’m vewy, vewy scawed.

    God’s fiery anger? Sure, why not. He had no objection to 6 million of his chosen people murdered by the Nazi’s, nor centuries of slavery, nor a couple of hundred thousand witches being burned alive for a crime we know cannot be committed, or the four children who die every MINUTE of hunger while their governments play politics and enrich the leaders.

    But two people committing themselves to a life together? Why, that would surely get his holy knickers into a thoroughly uncomfortable bunch.

  • My grandmother thought that eating pork was an abomination. Do you eat pork? Shellfish? Suppose Bubbe was right?

    It’s all irrelevant because what is at issue is civil marriage. Religious dogma – fascinating as it may be – isn’t a consideration.

  • Doc Anthony

    I think everybody already knows which way the Supremes will go on this issue. The “handwriting”, as it were, has been there for a long time.

    The five justices (or alleged justices) who previously voted for the United States of Sodom, are firmly prepared to do an encore performance. And THIS time, they mean to legalize gay marriage from coast to coast. We all know what’s coming, regardless of what side of the fence we’re on..

    So Christians have to seriously prepare themselves for this final event. They’re going to get real pressure, and it’s not going to let up. Even if you vote for the GOP in 2016, that will NOT make any difference. American Christians are stuck with this one.

    This is a national tragedy, but it is happening even now, and there’s NO way that American Christians (including their kids and grandkids) will escape the spriitual, legal, and political fallout from it.

  • ben in oakland

    “We all know what’s coming, regardless of what side of the fence we’re on. So Christians have to seriously prepare themselves for this final event.”

    Well, doc, when I want your uninformed three-fifths of an opinion, I’ll be sure to aks for it. Meanwhile…

    I would suggest that the best way to prepare yourself for this cataclysmic event is to go home, fix a nice cup of tea, unclutch your pearls, and resume whatever you were doing before you started worrying about what other people were doing with their dangly bits or started worrying about the coming non-apocalypse.

    “This is a national tragedy, but it is happening even now, and there’s NO way that American Christians (including their kids and grandkids) will escape the spiritual, legal, and political fallout from it.” Not it’s not a tragedy, except for those whose dominion over the lives of innocent others is coming to an end. No, there will be no fallout, except that the lives of gay people will be immeasurably improved. Your life, on the other hand, will be no different because it simply doesn’t affect you.

    But if you are really worried about it, my suggestion still stands: go home, fix a nice cup of tea, unclutch your pearls, and resume whatever you were doing before you started worrying about what other people were doing with their dangly bits or started worrying about the coming non-apocalypse.

    But if it does come out the way you fear, I will surely rejoice in your weeping, your wailing, your lamentations, and your gnashing of teeth.

    as my german husband says: Tee und Hee.

  • Floyd Lee

    Well, there’ll be plenty of gays and lesbians who agree with you, Ben. And they’ll be just as happy and openly “Tee und Hee” as you are.

    That’s expected and understandable; I don’t attack you for feeling all victorious. You won big, the Christians lost big, that’s the final score on the national scoreboard. We’re all just waiting for the play-clock to run out now.

    But even with that, you may find, after a while, that the Supreme Court’s mistake and Obama’s big crusade, isn’t shutting up the Christians at all, just as the mistaken Roe v Wade issue didn’t shut up the Christians on the abortion issue.

    Some Christians and churches will go ahead and bow to the Gay Marriage Religion of course. Indeed, that’s true even today with some churches and conferences.

    The pressure will ramp up fairly quickly, that’s for sure, and when it does, you’ll see some more RNS headlines about various churches, clergy, or Christians that have chucked their Bibles on this issue. You’ll see it happen, I promise.

    Public opposition to gay marriage by Christians or churches, public affirmation that the Bible is still correct, will carry a real price tag someday soon. Some Christian small business owners have already begun paying a serious price.

    So, for Christians, it’s time to make real preparations, while the sun is still marginally above the horizon. Changes are coming.

  • Greg

    Yes, sadly we are creeping closer and closer towards the end. This is just another sign of the times where evil is being called good (2Tim: 4:3-4). Obviously all must come to be, but what gloomy thing it is to watch our world slip deeper and deeper into the Dark Ages of the 21st century. Whew! I guess a good read of Romans 1:18-32 tells it all.

  • Hi Ann, will you be my friend? I like strawberries? Do you like strawberries?

  • Ben in oakland

    “But even with that, you may find, after a while, that the Supreme Court’s mistake and Obama’s big crusade, isn’t shutting up the Christians at all, just as the mistaken Roe v Wade issue didn’t shut up the Christians on the abortion issue.”

    I never expected it to shut Christians up, because it will always be the case for some moralizing busybodies that nothing needs minding so much as other people’s business. And by “Christians”, I assume you mean the type of Christians who describe themselves as bible believing and fundamentalist– not the PCUSA, Episcopalians, ECLA, quakers, Unitarians, Mennonites, and a host of others.

    And of course, they won’t shut up as long as they are able to grift power and money and dominion on our backs and at our expense. That’s pretty much what the anti-abortion groups have done, isn’t it? They haven’t stopped abortion, haven’t done a thing to prevent even one abortion, and oppose everything that will lessen the need for it, but have still managed to keep that furnace burning at full force. The grifters are still making a good living at “opposing” abortion while not actually doing anything.

    “Some Christians and churches will go ahead and bow to the Gay Marriage Religion of course. Indeed, that’s true even today with some churches and conferences.” There is no gay marriage religion, just a lot of people who read their bibles, and decided that gay people deserve to be treated like human beings, the same as everyone lese, not despite their bibles, but BECAUSE of their bibles. Indeed, a whole bunch of them have already decided that, and more will.

    “The pressure will ramp up fairly quickly, that’s for sure, and when it does, you’ll see some more RNS headlines about various churches, clergy, or Christians that have chucked their Bibles on this issue.” Not from this imaginary” pressure, but because they can see what antigay bigots are really up to. Just Like they did on jew hating, divorce, witch burning, segregation, and slavery. On, yes. and on not treating others as they themselves would like to be treated, not judging others, and missing those veritable forests of beams in their own eyes.

    “Public opposition to gay marriage by Christians or churches, public affirmation that the Bible is still correct, will carry a real price tag someday soon. Some Christian small business owners have already begun paying a serious price.’ No, it won’t carry abny price tag that minding one’s own business wouldn’t pay for in spades. But if it makes you feel better, sure it will. As for those small business owners that thought they could just ignore the law in favor of their prejudices? They are choosing to ignore the laws which forbid discrimination on the basis of religious belief, and they would howl if someone did the same to them.

    All they had to do was say “I’m booked.” But no, they were just too holy to do even that. It is highly telling that just about the only complaints about refusing to do one’s job because of supposed “religious beliefs” crop up whenever these people have to behave politely or decently, let alone amicably, without animus, to gay people who don’t share their unfounded beliefs about gay people. There have been several hundred thousand same sex weddings in this country since 2004. There have been a handful of so-called Christian so-called business people who have been “bullied into what their consequences forbid.” Actually there have been none. But they did announce their loud-and-clear intentions to break the law.

    Why do they get to break the law, when your own founder and his best buddy, Peter, tells you to “render unto Caesar.” No one else gets to. And as far as I can tell, no one else wants to.

    Why can I as an atheist, completely disbelieve in their god, or as a Hindu worship fall gods, idols, and demons, and this bothers no one? But let me say I am gay, and now their conscience forbids them to treat me the same as anyone else. In fact, the elevation of atheism, idol worship, false god worship, rejection of Christ, and the whole megillah, as somehow lesser sins than homosexuality, is why I think that that the problems lies with this unwarranted, completely imaginary superiority as a human being, a Christian, and a moral person. You’ll be GDGTOH damned if we will ever be your equals.

    What I find really interesting is that you are willing for this handful of vendors to be excused:

    1) Excused from being polite and caring to their clientele, even if they don’t want the business. Christians don’t have to be polite and caring, not when they got a whole pile of self-righteousness to scarf down.

    2) They are excused from obeying the law that all of the rest of us have to obey, because they are conservative, bible believing Christians, and special. No “Rendering unto Caesar for THEM!

    3) They are excused from having even the smallest modicum of business sense, preferring to antagonize not only gay people, but our friends, families, colleagues and neighbors, and get a reputation as someone who is bigoted, bone-headed, and difficult to work with. As a wedding professional, I can tell you that this is about the STUPIDEST thing you could do, short of being a child molester and taking out an ad in the Times. Melissa Sweetcakes got hit with a $200,000 court bill because of her complete lack of sense. Tellingly, she ADMITTED that her business had failed due to boycotts, among other factors. Even if every gay person for 100 miles had boycotted her, it wouldn’t have harmed her business. BUT SHE WAS QUITE WILLING TO HARM IT HERSELF, and equally willing to blame gay people for her stupidity.

    4) They are excused from following the direct orders of Jesus himself, because they don’t really wish to refrain from judging others, and don’t believe in treating others as they would like to be treated. They have assured themselves of the sinless state of all of their customers, or at least, of the only sin that matters. Their oh-so-delicate consciences must not be troubled by treating gay people like all other people. It’s funny about how the sin of homobigotry doesn’t trouble their consciences at all.

    So, no. I don’t buy a word of what you are saying. It’s all intended to make you feel good, and to justify the behavior of people whom I consider to fairly stupid and immoral.

    Here are ALL the “preparations” that this class of so-called Christian needs to make.

    “go home, fix a nice cup of tea, unclutch your pearls, and resume whatever you were doing before you started worrying about what other people were doing with their dangly bits or started worrying about the coming non-apocalypse. “

  • I like strawberries. Did you know they aren’t sweet if they are picked too early? Does anyone know if Jesus like strawberries?

  • Hi Doc Anthony. Will you be my friend? I like strawberries. Do you like them too and do you know if Jesus Christ liked them? They’re my favorite.

  • Ben in oakland

    I would think if we’re coming to the end, you would just be happy happy happy that Jesus is a-comin’ to bring you home. You might want to read the part of romans where paul says you shouldn’t judge others because you’re doing the same thing.

    I wouldn’t cancel my newspaper just yet.

  • Hi J.C. I like strawberries. Do you like Strawberries too? They taste sweet and are red.

  • Hi Charles, do you like strawberries? I love strawberries because they are red and sweet. Do you know if Jesus liked strawberries?

  • Greg

    Well actually a Christian must proclaim the Truth. But no, I don’t think the actual End is that close, but that God will soon intervene in our world in a special way that is designed to wake us all up. There are plenty of recent prophecies stating that very thing. The problem is, we will all experience this thing that is coming, and it will not be fun.

  • Jack

    No, Ann, marriage always has had boundaries and if gay marriage becomes the law of the land, it will continue having boundaries, only this time they will have shifted in an unprecedented way.

    But there will always be rules on who (or what) you can or can’t marry. True marriage “equality” will never happen, if by “equality” you mean the right to marry whomever (or whatever) you wish.

    So gay marriage is not marriage “equality,” which would imply no boundaries, but moving existing boundaries to accommodate gay couples. Those who wish to marry more than one person will still be able to argue that we don’t have marriage equality so long as they can only marry one person at a time. Brothers and sisters who wish to marry but can’t will be able to make the same argument.

    Bottom line: Whatever we decide as a society, honesty in language should be observed and practiced.

  • Larry

    I will be your friend, Victor. But I am allergic to strawberries and Jesus Christ. 🙂

  • Larry

    No, that is what excuses people use when they want to act like raging dillholes in public and need a socially acceptable excuse for it. Christian morality means doing whatever the hell you want and claiming that its God’s will. Religion being great tool for sociopaths, bigots and anti-social types.

  • Jack

    Actually, on abortion, while the law has not changed at all, the pro-life aim of far fewer abortions is being realized. So in essence, both sides can claim a measure of success. The pro-choice side can say it succeeded in keeping abortion legal, while the pro-life side can say it succeeded in dramatically reducing the number of abortions and changing hearts and minds, especially among the Millennial generation — quite a shocker since Millennials are to the left on nearly all other issues.

  • Larry

    You are just arguing semantics. There are boundaries!!!!! Yes there are, and you have to justify why they exist. Just claiming they do exist is not enough. Marriage laws are permissive absent reason for a given union. You don’t have a single rational and secular argument against marriage equality.

    “Brothers and sisters who wish to marry but can’t will be able to make the same argument.”

    No they can’t. Because there are rational and secular arguments to be made against such unions. But thank you for showing what kind of lazy nonsense arguments people make against marriage equality.

  • Larry

    Well the anti-abortion crowd has tried to make end runs around the law with patently unconstitutional and illegal restrictions on abortion. But their goal of ending abortion once and for all will never be realized. The anti-choice crowd simply doesn’t have appropriate legal arguments to withstand federal judicial challenge.

    With Marriage Equality, they appear to be following the model of anti-desegregation efforts. Looking for excuses and end runs around laws against discrimination. Looking for sub rosa, unofficial methods of engaging in it. It will be useful for garnering votes and cash but utterly useless when it comes to legislation.

  • Jack

    If I were gay and a long-time activist for gay marriage, I would be happy and content, not angry and frustrated. But leaving Ben aside for a moment, who to be fair seems to shuttle back and forth between happiness and anger, mostly what I hear is anger and frustration.

    And that’s one of many things that appear to be red flags on the question of whether gay marriage is the end or the beginning. That is the real question. If it is the end, then both sides of the culture war will adjust. But if gay marriage is the beginning, and the demands then escalate to unlimited ones that directly impact basic freedoms of religion and expression, fasten your seat belts because it is going to be a rough ride for the whole country on both sides.

  • I hope the next step is the abandonment of religion:

    Kill All Homosexuals

    “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13)

    Tragically, not enough bibles are destroyed every year.
    And someone keeps ordering new ones.

    “The only cure for homosexuals is that they be put to death” – PASTOR Robbie Gallaty, Tennessee Megachurch, Sept 4, 2014

    Humanity must abandon this crap.

  • @Jack,

    “But if gay marriage is the beginning, and the demands then escalate to unlimited ones that directly impact basic freedoms of religion and expression…”

    Oh, you poor victim.

    You can always pray to your invisible friend and ponder His wonderful ideas for a better civilization:


    “If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and SEIZING HIS GENITALS, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.” – Yahweh – (DEUT. 25:11)

  • Jack,

    “the pro-life aim of far fewer abortions is being realized.”

    Your God isn’t going to like that. God loves abortion:

    “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer… Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts…they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, YET WILL I SLAY even the beloved fruit of their womb.” – Yahweh (Hosea 9:11-16)

  • Charles,

    “Same sex unions are an abomination.”

    Not true –


    Jesus accidentally stumbled into a sexual tryst between Peter and Jesus’ lover.

    “Then the disciple whom Jesus dearly loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water” (John 21:7)

    “And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:
 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.” (Mark 14:51-52)

    It is right there in plain view.

  • @Charles,

    “another sign of the end and God’s fiery anger is building…”

    Yeah cuz the Holocaust didn’t do it. But NOW! Love between gays.
    Remember to act like God and do as God requires:


    “And the daughter…if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” – Yahweh (Leviticus 21:9)

    As we have seen in the news, this would be an
    effective way to punish someone.

    Although, it disgusts me that you defend this.

  • Jack

    Per Ben’s post, and speaking of “husbands”I wonder how different the cultural history of America would have been if every Christian man, starting many decades ago, had thought through the implication of the church — the Body of Christ and its members — being the Bride of Christ.

    Most Christian men gloss over that biblical phrase very quickly, for obvious reasons, and I’ve been among them.

    But speaking to fellow heterosexuals for a moment, what if it turns out, at least from a Christian standpoint, that in order to be the best husband to one’s wife, and father to one’s boys and girls, one first has to submit one’s self as a man to be a bride to Christ in one’s spiritual life?

    And what if the tens of millions of men who have done an end run around this charge have, in the process, short-changed their wives, their kids, and their marriages? What if that is a key cause of distant dads and husbands who bury their lives in work rather than family?

    Forget gay marriage or no gay marriage for now. It is ultimately tied into it but there’s something bigger at stake here. What if this is the heart of the matter — much bigger or deeper than the fights for or against gay marriage?

    Moreover, what if a revolutionized view of this is the key to healing families and the nation?

  • @Floyd Lee,

    “the Christians lost big”

    What the hell did Christians lose?
    This victimization crap is disgusting!

    The fantasy doesn’t end with the giant fairy in the sky?!
    We have to believe the fairy is angry too?


  • Eric

    Get over it, Frankie No-Facts.

  • @Jack,

    “what if it turns out… in order to be the best husband to one’s wife, and father to one’s boys and girls, one first has to submit one’s self as a man to be a bride to Christ in one’s spiritual life?”

    What if it turns out your psychotic fantasy that says there is something wrong with being gay is an empty claim and all the young men who killed themselves to live up to your psychotic fantasy of making god happy died in vain?

    How about the sex lives of other people being none of your freakin’ business?
    How about we leave gay people to decide everything for themselves and you go back to worrying if you have followed your God’s instructions carefully enough:


    Don’t let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle. (Leviticus 19:19)
    Don’t have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
    Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric. (Leviticus 19:19)
    Don’t cut your hair nor shave. (Levit icus 19:27)
    Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
    Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
    If anyone, even someone from your own family, suggests worshiping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6–10)
    If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of its inhabitants … even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12–15)
    Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2–7)


    So everybody just obey!
    That ought to fix the world’s problems!

  • Eric

    Get over it, Chuck. The days of making gender and sexuality into idols are over for you. All you have left are threats about a future judgment, an empty hope that finally, someday, God will prove you and your bigotry to be right. Ain’t happening, hoss. Ain’t happening. So, you can keep whinging on and be increasingly ignored, or you can repent, get over it, and get on with the gospel.

  • Eric

    Tony, by “fallout” you mean everyone except the haters getting on with their lives, right?

  • Jack

    Why the hate, Max? Seriously. Have I unexpectedly struck a nerve with you? Your response has nothing to do with my post, but the anger is fairly clear.

    Are you one of those absentee dads, Max?

  • Jack

    Note that 100% of my post dealt with fellow heterosexuals and our own Achilles heel….but Max explodes with rage, then covers himself by responding as if my post was addressed to gay people rather than fellow heterosexuals like himself.

    Very interesting, Max. And nice try.

  • @Charles

    “The union of a man and woman is sealed when full sexual intercourse has taken place”

    Well is that a fact?
    I’ve been married more times than I can count!

    Charles, Gay people are not the problem – Religion is the problem.

    Religion is like bowling
    Some people bowl.
    Some people don’t.

    I don’t bowl.
    It doesn’t hurt bowlers if others choose not to bowl.

    But if bowlers insist that we non-bowlers take up bowling even if we don’t want to, that is rude.
    And if you further demand that we face personal consequences for not bowling, you are being disgustingly rude.

    Go and bowl. I’m not stopping you.
    But try to make me bowl and you shall be challenged with whatever legal means I have.

    For Peace, Culture and The Separation of Church and State

  • Greg,

    “sadly we are creeping closer and closer towards the end.”

    Sadly? I thought this was supposed to be joyous. Why all the glum faces?
    Could it be you know that it is BS?

  • Oh, dear, Jack,


    Did you think those words from God were hateful?
    All I did was share God’s thoughts with you. He is no friend of mine but I thought you defended this God and vowed him to be the source of morality?

    I thought God was your root of humanitarianism. No?

    Gay Marriage is the subject here!
    Your God claims he wants you to kill gays. Tell me why you find that hateful? – thought it would make you happy to see what you agree with.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Christian ministers all over Alabama married same gender couples for the first time today. Until today, anti-gays had denied them their Freedom Of Religion. Soon, the 38th US State will establish marriage equality. And this summer, the US Supreme Court will establish marriage equality nationwide. Christians will finally have their Freedom of Religion nationwide.

    Anti-gays will still have their Freedom Of Religion too, they just lost their “special right” to deny normal, non-homophobic Americans our Freedom Of Religion.

  • CarrotCakeMan,

    “And this summer, the US Supreme Court will establish marriage equality nationwide.”

    Oh…I hope you are right.

    I additionally hope that enough Christian Right Wingers will throw a tantrum – it will help the Atheist cause to hear more rabid, homophobic nonsense from the Christian right.

    Someday religion will be about as important as Leprechauns and Mermaids.
    It will become a fun little hobby for fantasy writers.

    And then we can get on with finally trying to solve problems with rational, practical solutions instead of having to worry about what the invisible celestial air pocket thinks.

  • Pingback: US: Handwriting on the wall for gay marriage | Just a Blog to Collect Christian News and Articles()

  • Ben in oakland

    Personally, I think god has been trying to wake up a certain class of so-called Christian as to what they’ve been doing to innocent people for centuries. But they are too full of their wholly unwarranted and imaginary superiority as Christians and as human beings to listen to him.

    Just my opinion.

    Of course, one could claim, as so many on these very pages have done, that what defines a true Christian and differentiates him from a not-so-true Christian or even a not-Christian is their attitude towards homosexuality. If you don’t have the politically correct attitude, you’re simply not a true Christian.

    As for god intervening, he’s had plenty of opportunities and actual, real reasons to do so. But he hasn’t. So I suspect this is more just wishful thinking on your part. It must give you a very warm glow to believe that you are on the good side of god.

    As I wrote above:

    God’s fiery anger? Sure, why not. He had no objection to 6 million of his chosen people murdered by the Nazi’s, nor centuries of slavery, nor a couple of hundred thousand witches being burned alive for a crime we know cannot be committed, or the four children who die every MINUTE of hunger while their governments play politics and enrich the leaders.

    But two people committing themselves to a life together? Why, that would surely get his holy knickers into a thoroughly uncomfortable bunch.”

  • Ben in oakland


    I’m very happy about our successes. I’m very angry about the hatred, despite, lies, viciousness, and slander directed at us by people who should know better, and condoned by people who should know better. I’m angry about the time,. energy, and money so many gay people, our families, friends, allies, and churches must waste combatting ignorance and prejudice. I’m positively furious that gay kids kill themselves, that my friend johnny was barred from the side of his life partner when steve was dying from AIDS, that gay kids get kicked out of their homes by their “every kid deserves a mother and a father” parents.

    I am beyond furious that moral cretins like theocratic operatives tony Perkins and Brian Brown make a living off of attacking gay people, and NALT Christians say tsk, tsk.

    And I’m bored by baseless paranoia like this “But if gay marriage is the beginning, and the demands then escalate to unlimited ones that directly impact basic freedoms of religion and expression, fasten your seat belts because it is going to be a rough ride for the whole country on both sides..”

    You give us far more power than we have, and forget the malevolence directed at us for the simple fact of existing, and daring to say ENOUGH!

    If you are hearing anger and frustration, it is because we have had ENOUGH! The lies, the fear mongering, the hate, the harm, the vicious prejudice disguised as “sincere religious belief: ENOUGH!!!!!

    But make no mistake. WE ARE NOT THE RADICAL CHRISTIAN RIGHT. We don’t make our livings off of malevolence directed at Christians, or foment political campaigns intended to demonize, to accrue power, money, and dominion at your expense. We don’t lie about you. we’re not trying to harm you.

  • The Great God Pan

    Will Christians respond by staging terrorist attacks on gay weddings like they’ve been attacking abortion clinics and providers since Roe v. Wade?

  • Ben in oakland


    “Forget gay marriage or no gay marriage for now. It is ultimately tied into it but there’s something bigger at stake here.” No, it isn’t tied in at all, Jack. I’m not taking responsibility for the failure of anyone else’s marriage, let alone the failure of SOME heterosexuals to live up to the promises they make. If heterosexual men are taking their marital responsibilities seriously, perhaps you should be talking to the parents and the ministers of those men, instead of claiming some bogus tie to gay people.

    until recently, we weren’t allowed to be married.

    “What if this is the heart of the matter — much bigger or deeper than the fights for or against gay marriage?” It might be for you. But there are plenty of Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, and atheist parents who are great parents, without the slightest need at all for anything Jesus.

    And who would probably think that a man being the bride of Christ is actually kinda gay.

    All right. That was totally gratuitous, but I don’t care, because it was also kinda funny.

    But the point remains. And more to the point, you’ve defined this as a spiritual and religious problem, when it is simply a moral problem: keeping commitments. No religion necessary. I cannot imagine a man bringing a child into the world, and not thinking that that is the most precious, wonderful gift imaginable. But it’s not even about that. We tout love and parenthood as the ultimate goals, and weave massive fantasies around them. But we don’t prepare people to be parents, to be committed. Instead, we teach them that love is a many splendored thing, all you need is love, and love makes the world go round.

    that’s not love, it’s spiritual candy.

    Frankly, love takes a lot of work, and an enduring relationship takes even more. What ALWAYS amazes me is the heterosexuals seem to have a very difficult time keeping their marriages alive, intact, and functioning, despite all of the social, cultural, legal, moral, and religious forces arrayed to keep them together. What also amazes me is the sheer number of gay and lesbian couples I have met personally (probably about 150 or so) or know about from over the years: hundreds and hundreds of couples that have been together as long as 60 years, most in the 25-50 year range. And this despite all of the social, cultural, legal, moral, and religious forces arrayed to break them apart.

    If heterosexual men are having a problem keeping their commitments, maybe they should be talking to US.

  • I wish I had some strawberries. They are my favorite. Do you like strawberries

  • Hi everyone, I like strawberries. Does anybody here like strawberries too?

  • I like strawberries. Is it a sin of I eat my brothers share of the strawberries? To make up for taking them he can have my vegetables. Is it ok?

  • Do you know if Jeaus Christ liked Strawberries? They are my favorite.

  • Did you know that God made strawberries?

  • Thank you Larry. I think your nice. I would share my strawberries with anyone including straight, gay, or lesbian were starving if they were starving. They have to be starving, because I like them too.

  • AntiZeroPeople

    Never forget that. Then, live what you say. Allowing Christians the same freedoms to live life according to their choice behaviors that you demand for homosexuals, is a civil rights issue.

    The rainbow flag is tyranny when forced to be flown over those that reject its declaration of morality and theology.

    Just keep justice equal.

  • AntiZeroPeople

    Perfect example of the sexual and mental depravity of the LGBT movement. Of course spouted off by an atheist. Surrrre.

    Couldn’t ask for a better example for what is the bottom line of all of this. This is about the forced obeisance to the lords of debauchery.

    History repeating itself. Pagan history.

    When does the new Nero take “secular” power?

  • AntiZeroPeople

    This is for secularists to celebrate the celebration of sin.

    Not for Christians to be forced to be involved in. You guys debauch each other to your hearts’ content.

    And Christians will still be paying the “secular” taxes to pay for the ever present and obtained STD’s that affect and infect your kind.

  • AntiZeroPeople

    Truth wins out. No matter the depraved propaganda that the sexually ill secularists try to paint this issue. Depravity and moral illness will grow until the Christians are faced with the same hatred for rejecting the world and its ways as they did in the beginnings of the Church. Satan hasn’t changed and neither has the behaviors of those that follow depravity.

    It’s always the same types of people that embrace each side.

    Even as myth and metaphor, Noah’s and Lot’s social environment look to be reality that cannot be escaped from.

    Depravity and depraved behaviors are choices for the world and its ways.

    Let them laugh until their seared consciences cannot be silenced. The horrors inside the heads of hateful Christian-bashing reprobates is theirs to encounter sooner or later.

    Too bad but truth always wins out.

    For it is written . . .

    Let’s just watch it come to pass.

    Again and again . . .

  • AntiZeroPeople

    Atheist Max,

    The secular world is so depraved and violent, that your goofy examples of Israelite culture – when it existed – makes you look the typical idiot most atheists showcase sooner or later.

    It’s laughable really. Sad, and laughable.

  • AntiZeroPeople

    “Gay kids” (PROPAGANDA ALERT) kill themselves when they embrace the gay life. They were alive and well up until their firm grasping of the LGBT culture and community and of course behavior.

    Truth wins out.

    You seem to forget that


  • AntiZeroPeople

    This looks like a threat of violence.

    Of course.

    So many uncountable numbers of Christians murdered by atheists. Why bother hiding the agenda anymore huh?

  • AntiZeroPeople

    The “handwriting on the wall” was a dire warning of bad news.
    But that for another truth wins out moment.

    This LGBT plague has been endured by Christians since the formation of the first Church congregations:

    Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

    To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ: Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

    The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

    Dear friends,

    Although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.


    History repeating itself.

    Forgotten and rebounding as it always is.

  • AntizeroPeople:

    “looks like a threat of violence”

    Which is why religion is so dangerous. Imagine our President putting his hand on the Bible and ‘swearing an oath’ to it?

    Religion is terrifying because it is so closed to negotiation.
    I hope it is abandoned.

  • @Antizero,

    This is your bible – not mine. I don’t believe in any of it and I think you are promoting absolutely horrible things by selling it.

    Yet…I am depraved for quoting….your Bible?

    Is it me that is depraved?
    Or is it your Bible which you find so offensive?

  • @Antizero,

    “Truth wins out.”

    Then what are you afraid of? Why not leave Gay people to themselves?

  • @Antizero,

    So the upsetting part of my comment was NOT Leviticus?

  • Antizero,

    “The rainbow flag is tyranny…”

    Religion is like bowling.

    Some people bowl and some don’t.
    It doesn’t hurt ANY bowlers if some people don’t bowl.

    Bowlers can freely argue in favor of bowling.
    Non-Bowlers can freely argue against bowling.
    Neither argument is TYRANNY!

    But if bowlers DEMAND that other people must bowl also,
    that would be very rude.

    Go Bowling if you want to, but don’t force bowling on the rest of us.

    I hate bowling as much as I hate religion.
    If you think advertising one’s position is TYRANNY you need to look in the mirror.

  • Jack

    Atheist Max, you were foaming at the mouth like a pit bull over a post that had zero to do with gay marriage and everything to do with heterosexual marriage, so it doesn’t take a clinical psychologist to figure out what happened. I was saying that we as heterosexuals need to get our own act together and I was very specific about what that entailed and what were the consequences of not doing so.

    Again, not a word or intended inference of any kind about gay marriage….and you exploded like an IED…..because it hit home — precisely because it wasn’t about gay issues and it obviously was (from your reaction) about issues affecting you.

    Deal with it.

  • ben in oakland

    That’s all right. we pay for all of those babies you keep producing.

    I’m always glad to see the face of despite, smiling it Christian smile.

  • Jack

    Sorry Ben, but the more likely explanation is that when we move from the conclusion of a battle over marriage itself to much broader issues of human rights for individuals, it’s becoming increasingly clear that lots of people who support gay marriage are not going to support anything that restricts the freedom of conscience and religion of people who disagree.

    And that’s exactly what bothers other supporters of gay marriage who do want to go farther…… If I tell someone I really want Y more than anything and then I get Y but am then at least as angry as before I received Y, the likely explanation is that I want more than just Y. Either the anger is for real because I realize what an uphill battle it will be to get from Y elsewhere — or my anger is a tactical pose designed to throw the other person on the defensive, making it harder for them to oppose what’s coming. But either way, consistent displays of anger following a victory are a bright red light to anyone who thinks a matter is done.

    Again, it’s common sense…..people who want something more than anything else and then get it are normally happy they got it, no matter how long or hard or even unfair the struggle was or appeared…..all of the heartache in getting it pales in comparison to the elation of getting it.

    But if after getting it, there has been no change in expressed emotions, one would have to be naïve not to conclude that those displaying the consistent anger want more.

    The other red light is those showing consistent anger not just after a victory which would normally bring elation, but specifically over others’ — including other gay marriage supporters – expressing worries about whether anything can come next that impacts personal liberties. Again, that wouldn’t make sense if the final goal has been reached. If I have a goal and it is reached, and somebody wonders whether others like myself (though not necessarily I) want more, the last thing in the world I’m going to express is anger. Again, I just won; I have exactly what I want, so why should I be angry? It makes no sense, unless I want something more and am angry over the fact that the chances of my getting it are iffy, since many of my allies in the prior battle are going to jump ship over what the “more” means.

    Nothing new here…..we shall see.

  • Larry

    Sorry buddy, but your rights end when you start to harm others. Religious belief is not license to attack others or be uncivil.

    When you are in a public setting, there are generally rules concerning civil conduct which have to put up with. Especially when that public setting involves commerce or public offices. If you feel such rules concerning civil conduct are oppressive, then feel free to opt out of participating in such things.

  • Larry

    Jack, engaging in discriminatory behavior in business, workplaces and in public settings is not making a stand of conscience. It is merely expressing bigotry and seeking excuses in religion. The attitudes are not any different from when various other forms of bigotry are denied given color of law. One does not have the religious freedom to discriminate in public settings. One’s religious exercise ends where you start harming others (YES, discriminatory behavior is harming others) or breaking laws of general applicability.

    The opponents of marriage equality can’t cough up reasons for their POV which have to be taken seriously under the law. Their feelings are immaterial to issues of civil law.

    All civil rights laws go through life under opposition by political majorities. It always gets accepted with kicking and screaming by those interested in maintaining a discriminatory status quo. Their entire purpose is to limit the power of political majorities against those who cannot effectively wield the powers of the popular vote to protect their interests.

  • Jack

    Max, I’m disappointed in you (LOL)…..Elsewhere you’ve assured everyone that your only opposition is to any hint of union between religion and state…..But here you are, above, supporting the burning of Bibles.

    Book burning has a long and unfortunate history…..it’s not just a thing from a millennium-old medieval past, but the KKK did it, the Nazis did it, and people do it today.

    You have a nasty little streak of authoritarianism in you, Max.

    Maybe I’ll nickname you Benito…..

  • Larry

    “But speaking to fellow heterosexuals for a moment, what if it turns out, at least from a Christian standpoint…”

    Nobody has to care what a Christian standpoint is on this issue. This is a matter of civil law. That is between Christian congregations and their churches.

    If people could find harm or damage done by marriage equality, they would already have been able to cite examples from the various states and nations which already have it. But no such evidence exists. This is why marriage equality opponents have to dishonestly treat the subject as a hypothetical. They avoid examples of real of people going on for decades in some places.

  • Larry

    “History repeating itself. ”

    Yep, bigotry under the color of law which was so prominent concerning other political minorities is being challenged and demolished by the judiciary. What is really ironic is how often the anti-gay crowd has been citing the exact same arguments which were used by many when the subject was racial discrimination. They even want to bring back their own version of Jim Crow by calling it “religious conscience”.

  • Jack,

    I don’t advocate book burning! Good grief!

    I said it is tragic more “bibles aren’t destroyed each year”. My old bible literally fell into a tub and was soaked – I didn’t even want to destroy it.
    It had been my grandmother’s.

    besides it would be stupid to advocate Bible burning.
    The Bible will never be burned out of existence because the Internet will keep it forever.

    Religious texts need to die off – – not be burned!

  • Jack,

    “It wasn’t about gay issues”

    Your God says otherwise:

    Kill All Homosexuals

    “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13)

    I’m referring to your comment that your God is the source of Humanism and decency – and since the above article is completely about Gay Marriage it seems you should answer for how your God demands you kill gays.

    I don’t think anyone should kill gays – it is disgusting to even write these words your god wrote – but I think Christians owe us an explanation for your God.

  • 1) 6 million did not die – the real figure is between 270,000 and 500,000 and they were victims of disease and starvation.

    2) The Jews are not God’s chosen people nor are they Semites.

    3) Sodomy is always punished with fire and they will burn again like they did before in Sodom and Gomorrah.

  • Yadda yadda yadda they said that to Noah as he was building the ark. This time it will be fire, not water, and a fire resistant suit won’t save your sorry ass.

  • @ J.C. Samuelson

    There are no ‘ifs’ about it – same sex unions are an abomination and those who condone them, turn a blind eye to them, or give them their blessings have committed the greater sin and will be punished more severely.

  • Larry

    Hey Chuckie, Noah’s Ark was a parable.

    If it happened in real life, Noah and crew would have died within a week of super-instant cholera coming from mountains of herbivore poop which could not be disposed of on a daily basis.

  • Just another of your satanic opinions Max – a dime a dozen.

    You’re right about sodomites, though, they are no problem to Yashua Messiah at all – nothing that His fiery tempest cannot deal with – they will be ashes beneath the feet of the saints – great for our veggies.

  • Hermes

    Sweet Yeti of the Serengeti!! You have to be one of the most ignorant and maliciously dishonest people on this board right now.

    Anyone who bothers to respond to you seriously is wasting their time.

  • Hermes

    I take that as a compliment coming from you.

    The last thing I want is agreement with a wannabe cultist, creationist, bigot, antisemite, holocaust denier.

  • @ Max

    What Holocaust is that Max – the one in the Ukraine under Stalin?

  • @ Hermes

    The delusion is very strong with you.

    Cults primarily make money and Judas was paid – I make no money, nor do I get paid, nor do I ask for donantions.

    “Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain.” – Ambrose Bierce

    “Bigot – A person who wins an argument with a liberal” – Rush Limbaugh

    So you’re a believer in meaningless jerksville random selection – how sad, dumb and wretched is that?

    Jews are not Semites, they’re Canaanites – anti-Semitism is just a scam business for The Jews.

    Holocaust denier?????? How can something that never happened be denied? Answer on the back of a postage stamp thank you.

  • And you’re the most ignorant and uneducated with an unhealthy dollop of arrogance.

  • What will you do when He is your King and He’s ruling you with a rod of iron (tough love)? Rest assured that day will come and I am looking forward to it already. LOL

  • J.C. Samuelson

    No one forces you to involve yourself in anyone else’s life. It’s that simple. And in case you hadn’t noticed, religious people contract and spread STDs too.

  • J.C. Samuelson

    You can believe what you like, and your every-so-loving “concern” is duly noted. Nevertheless, you do have to share this world with the rest of us heathens, reprobates, and fools until your Jesus comes, so you might as well get used to it.

  • Ben in oakland

    You can tell we’re christians by our love. Tralalalala.

    And I guess it makes it so much better that the Nazi’s allowed hundreds and thousands to die of starvation and disease rather than murdering 6 million outright.

    much better, like rainbows and unicorns.

  • Ben in oakland

    Oh, honey, just come out now. You’ll feel so much better.

  • Hermes
  • Larry

    After all the secular world has brought us things like freedom of religion and democracy. We know no “true Christian” can stand for such things.

  • Pingback: Get them to the church on time | Font Folly()

  • CC,

    “6 million did not die”


    Dear, Priests and Pastors:
    Read what Charles wrote and see what happens when you promote nonsense of ‘faith’ instead of ‘evidence’ to enough people.

    Religion creates uncritical minds which cannot discern evidence.

  • Jack

    Not at all, Larry. I like words and phrases that accurately depict reality, not cute euphemisms whose goal is propagandistic, ie to commandeer the language on behalf of one cause or another. And that includes, without exception, causes I believe in strongly. Maybe that’s why I’m not an activist….I’d be pretty lousy at it!

    Marriage equality means marriage equality. It doesn’t mean merely moving the line from straight monogamy to gay monogamy….unless you accept the premise that marriage must be limited to monogamy. But in that case you’re not advocating total marriage equality, but only equality between monogamous straight and monogamous gay. You are leaving out polygamy, and you are also leaving in place other restrictions, for example, restrictions against brothers and sisters marrying.

    I am not saying there should be no boundaries. That’s a completely separate issue. I am saying that calling a single move of the boundary “marriage equality” is not accurate, because it still excludes far more than it includes and thus is not equality. It is only equality if you believe that the only hitherto-excluded groups that really matter are gay couples.

    My point is that you need to call it something else — if you care about clarity, precision, and accuracy in language.

  • CC,

    All I did was show you your bible.

  • CC,


    Channelling God?
    I don’t mind. Just don’t call it ‘humility’.

  • Stalin’s enforced dogma is no different from God’s.

    “Slay the unbelievers” – Yahweh (Deuteronomy)

  • cc.,

    “I am looking forward to it already.”

    That’s fine.
    Just don’t call your bloodlust ‘humility’ or ‘piety’ and I’m okay with it.

  • Jack


    (1) It might have been more than 6 million, not less. And while many were indeed the “victims of disease and starvation,” why were they even there in the first place? Because the Nazis uprooted them from their homes and put them there. Ergo, the Nazis were responsible…totally.

    (2) If you believe the Bible and interpret it naturally and straightforwardly, as you would any other communication, then yes, it does teach that the Jews were, are, and will always be God’s chosen people. And yes, they are Semites. Genetic studies show more identity between Ashkenazi Jews with Sephardic Jews than between Ashkenazi Jews and their former neighbors from Eastern Europe and Russia. Since even Nazi types don’t deny that Sephardic Jews are Semites, it follows that Ashkenazi Jews are as well.

    Nice try, though.

    (3) Before you even think of judging a single, solitary human being on this planet on anything, think about the games you’re playing regarding the Holocaust.

  • Jack

    Max, your post tells us plenty about you and nothing about the verses you quote.

    But that’s an old story with you.

  • CC,

    “they will be ashes beneath the feet of the saints”

    Priests and Pastors take note
    of the vicious bloodlust you create by promoting religion and teaching people that they will go to Hell.

    You have the right to preach it. But please don’t call it “Humility” or “Piety” when you do.

  • Jack

    So in other words, Charles, when communists commit genocide, you call it genocide, but when Nazis do the same, you call it….what….a myth?


  • Jack

    Charles, you are grotesque.

    On the Holocaust, it is your burden to prove it didn’t happen.

    Based on the normal, sane rules of evidence — historical and legal — it happened.

    There are countless eyewitnesses and documentary evidence. It is your burden to prove all the eyewitnesses were lying and that all the documents were forged.

    There….I’ve just summed up what’s wrong with Holocaust denial.

    Holocaust deniers deploy the same burden-of-proof-flipping that’s characteristic of all conspiracy theories, from 9/11 truther paranoia to Jesus-never-existed nonsense to New World Order fear-mongering to anti-vaccination foolishness.

    It’s all cut out of the same radical skeptical cloth, but with Holocaust denial, it is not only wrong, but cold-bloodedly monstrous because of the millions of human beings who died.

  • Larry

    I stopped treating Charles as someone with something serious to say when he claimed Stalin was half Jewish/Catholic in another article. It was just too stupid for words.

    Holocaust denial is not ignorance. It is intentional and malicious distortion of history. There is no aspect of it which isn’t deeply dishonest in nature and with a specific hateful agenda. They know they are full of crap but say this stuff to get a rise out of the reactions.

  • Jack

    Charles, God loves all people, but note that those He had the harshest words for are those who are puffed up with spiritual pride, hate the poor and the downtrodden, and hate his people, the Jews.

  • Yes love is usualy tough and The Truth always hurts.

    The issue you raised was the mythical 6 million which I answered so you know what you can do with your puerile point scoring, don’t you?

  • Jack

    Funny you should mention God’s “ruling with a rod of iron,” Charles.

    That’s a quote from Psalm 2:9 and it reappears three pivotal times in the Book of Revelation.

    It’s about God sending His Messiah to judge those who hate Israel and the Jews. That’s Psalm 2, the original time it shows up.

    The first time it appears in Revelation, many centuries later, it is an encouragement to one of 7 first-century churches. Jesus is reassuring them that they will rule their persecutors when Christ returns with an iron rod.

    The second time, in Revelation 12, it unambiguously refers to the Jewish people, whom it portrays as a beautiful woman with 12 stars giving birth to Jesus, who will one day rule the oppressors of the Jews with an iron rod. The rest of the chapter goes on to talk about how Satan is behind anti-Semitism.

    The third and final time it appears, in Revelation 19, the context is the second coming of Jesus, whom it says, will strike down the “nations,” which is the same meaning in the Greek as “goyim” in the Hebrew, and will rule them with an iron rod…same wording again. Revelation 19 is a continuation of Revelation 16, which ends with the nations of the world and their armies attacking Israel. Revelation 17 and 18 are parenthetical chapters, and then Rev. 19 picks up the narrative from 16, telling us what happens to the armies arrayed against Israel in 16 — Christ returns and destroys them.

    In other words, Charles, by citing Psalm 2:9, you’ve unwittingly and ironically called down judgment on your own head for your hatred of the Jews.

  • PS should be 15,300,000 not 15,400,000

  • Jack

    I misspoke when I said “burning.” You said “destroy,” not “burn.”

    But the result is the same.

  • Not at all, the Jews are not the chosen people – period – they’re Canaanites – a generation (race) of vipers (The Lord’s words) – serpent creatures form The Devil and Eve.

    You really shouldn’t type such long winded erroneous blathering comments – quantity makes no difference to error – error is error.

  • The Jews are not His people – stop trolling this error..

  • Jack

    Larry, what I posted was meant to have nothing to do with the issue of gay marriage, freedom of conscience, or anything like that.

    It was a completely different topic, at least in an immediate, practical way.

    Ben used the word “husband” in one of his posts, and that triggered a thought about what the Bible says about Christ being the husband or groom of every Christian, including men as well as women. And that led to a thought about how in our contemporary heterosexual world, the very reason marriages are shaky, including in all too many Christian households, could well be that Christian men feel funny about even thinking about their being brides of Christ.

    Now do you get it?

    Ben unwittingly triggered some thoughts in my head which have absolutely nothing to do with gay marriage, but perhaps much to do with problems in heterosexual marriages.

  • Jack you’re brainwashed, if The Holocaust is true why do The Jews ban scrutiny of the history and jail people is some countries for doing so? Why is no other history scrutiny treated in the same way?

    “To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” – Voltaire

    Countless eye witnesses!!!!! ROTFL Oh yeah and put them in front of a very mediocre barrister in court and he would shred them in pieces – something that has never been done incidently. They’re all liars.

  • Jack

    Max, reread my post.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with what you’re been talking about…..and you know it. It speaks for itself, and I’ve since explained it several times.

    You reacted because it hit home.

    Now deal with it.

  • There are two know-nothing morons I now ignore on this page – Max and Larry.

  • @ Hermes

    Well that silenced you, didn’t it?

  • Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha if all else fails use the closet sodomite nutmeg. 0/10 for originality.

  • A myth is something that never happened. Your command of English comprehension is very poor.

  • Jack

    Note Max’s lying again.

    Not only does he take Biblical verses out of context and ioften make up words or meanings that aren’t even remotely suggested in the text or even implied, he does the same with people’s posts.

    Witness the last few posts leading to this one.

    If one agrees with Max on atheism or the Bible and believes the ends justify the means, then none of these tactics matter. AS they say, all is fair in war.

    But if one agrees with Max on the issues but believes the ends don’t justify the means, then dishonest tactics do matter, even if done by the side one’s on.

  • No what’s grotesque is your cognitive dissonance.

  • Jack

    Pan, I think most people, straight or gay, are a bit more worried about ISIS or al Qaeda doing another 9/11 in one of our cities during rush hour — and this time killing 10,000 rather than 3,000 people — than a demented mountain man with a ZZ Top beard and his granddaddy’s rusty old rifle.

    Both are scary, but the first is the more likely and the more deadly.

    But more to the point: You should care about both threats…..and we as a country need to wake up in general to the threat of terrorism of any kind.

  • Jack

    Ben, no offense at all, but my particular post was addressing fellow heterosexuals only, and Christian heterosexuals specifically.

    My point was that fellow heterosexuals need to get their act together.

    That flew over your head, which really surprised me.

    But on the other hand, I’m glad that you (sort of) detected the irony of my solution — Christian men spiritually becoming brides of Christ, which….will make them better husbands and fathers. It is not just true biblically, but meant to be ironic.

    And you, Ben, are the source of my ruminations…..when one of your posts mentioned “husband,” that triggered my thoughts on this.

    You unwittingly made me think and perhaps I can return the favor by making you think.

  • Larry

    Semantic discussion in lieu of anything substantive on the subject.

    No, the arguments used for gays getting married don’t apply to all the nonsense “slippery slope” examples people trot out in their attempts to pretend they have a rational argument to make. Again unlike those other nonsense versions of “marriage equality” you are trying to trot out, there are rational and secular reasons against them all. You are simply trying to stretch a given term beyond reasonable limits to engage in absurdum argument.

    “I am not saying there should be no boundaries. ”

    But you aren’t giving us any reason why old ones need to stay on the subject of gays getting married.

    “My point is that you need to call it something else — if you care about clarity, precision, and accuracy in language”

    Because that is your real concern here. Riiiiight

  • Jack

    Charles, if you believe in the Bible, you must believe that the Jews are God’s people. It says it nearly everywhere, and it is a major thread that continues from Genesis through Revelation.

    If you read it as is, that’s what it says. But if you want to superimpose your own doctrines on it, rather than reading it as you would any other books or books, you can make it say anything you wish.

  • Larry

    Chucky, dusting off old David Irving chestnuts still makes you look like a lying sack of crap.

    People should take notice the lack of links to your alleged information. You obviously do not want people seeing where you are cutting and pasting from. This is what lying nutballs do when they want to cite something in favor of their gonzo ideas.

    All Holocaust deniers were proven in open court to be malicious liars
    See http://hdot.org/

    Sorry Chucky, Holocaust deniers had their one shot of showing the world in an open forum where one could challenge sources from either side, they were honest, upstanding types and proved quite the opposite.

    Go away troll.

  • Hermes

    Nope. Just want to keep a raging fool in suspense. Evidently it worked.

    There is no point in pretending you are an intelligent person with something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion.

    So please do us a favor and p1ss off.

  • Jack

    Charles, I’m not typing quantity for quantity’s sake. I’m trying to be as thorough as I can in giving reasons for my position.

  • Jack

    Nice try, Charles, but the claim about a 1941-49 “increase” has long been refuted:

    The World Almanac Gambit

    In August of 1997, an author identifying himself as Bob Djurdjevic, the founder of “Truth in Media,” included the following paragraph in a letter to The Arizona Republic:

    “The World Almanac for 1940 gives the world’s Jewish population as 15,319,359. The World Almanac for 1949 puts the number of Jews in the world at 15,713,638.
    “If the World Almanac figures are correct, “the world’s Jewish population did not decrease in the war decade, but showed a small increase.”

    The 1949 figure offered by Mr. Djurdjevic was, as you’re about to see, an outright lie, as was the conclusion drawn.

    When citing the World Almanac as a source for data “proving” that there was no Jewish population decline during World War II, Holocaust deniers are simply propagating one of the standard denier myths that has recurred regularly for more than a decade.

    The problem has nothing whatever to do with rates of population increase or anything like that. It has to do with how frequently the World Almanac’s sources had access to fresh estimates of religious populations.

    Whoever first started propagating World Almanac figures neglected to mention that all figures before
    1949 were from 1938 estimates. Since the year of etimate is given at the top of the chart it is difficult to believe that the originator did not intentionally mean to decieve by negelecting this key piece of information.

    I have posted the following correction several times:

    The University of Alberta library has the World Almanac issues for the pertinent period for 1941, 1944, 1947, 1948, and 1949. The figures listed for total world Jewish population are as follows:

    1941 15,748,091
    1944 15,192,089
    1947 15,688,259
    1948 15,688,259
    1949 11,266,600

    Now you may be wondering what happened to all those Jews in 1948-49. No fresh estimates were made between 1938 and 1947. The figures listed for 1941, 1947, and 1948 are identified as estimates made in 1938. The source for the estimate for 1944 is not given, and the numbers are listed differently than in other years. In 1944, the numbers are given as a part of a list of various world religions rather than standing on their own with a country-by-country breakdown as in the other years.

    Only in 1949 are postwar estimates employed, the figures given are for estimates made in 1948. A year or two lag seems to be common for various other population estimates given by the World Almanac.

    The difference between the 1938 and 1948 figures is thus 4,481,491.

    In 1949, however, the World Almanac gives a revised 1939 population of 16,643,120 giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520. Where the extra population between 1938 and 1939 came from is not cited, though one might speculate that it was based upon the Nazi estimates made in 1942 for the Wannsee Conference.

    Despite the apparent exactness of the numbers listed, the World Almanac warns that all numbers listed are estimates.

    The World Almanac estimates figured prominently in another instance of the Gambit when the New York Times published inflated estimates of the post-war Jewish population in 1948, and early deniers used the story to dismiss claims of 6 million Jewish deaths. i

    The Times later explained that their data had come from the 1948 World Almanac in this letter to Morris Kominsky from the author of the piece:

    “Dear Mr. Kominsky,
    “Thank you for your letter of inquiry of January 6.
    “The world Jewish population figures printed in this
    story came from the 1948 edition of the World Almanac.
    Later we checked it with the American Jewish Committee and
    other sources and said in the correction, as I noted to you
    in my previous letter, that the authorities agree that
    Hitler’s wholesale massacre of Jews during the war reduced
    the Jewish population to perhaps 12 million today (2/26/48).
    “If Mr. Freedman met with me I do not remember it.
    The problem is of course, that you are talking about events
    that took place 19 years ago. I see hundreds of people per
    year, many of them only for a few minutes so I could not
    swear that I did not see Mr. Freedman but if I did it made
    no impression either upon me or upon my assistant.
    “I do not know what Mr. Freedman means by examination
    of documents but to my knowledge we had no particular
    documents bearing on the issue in question.
    “I hope this answers your questions; if there is
    anything else you wish to know please do not hesitate to
    write again.
    “Sincerely, Hanson W. Baldwin (Military Editor)”

  • Jack

    Larry, you’ll get no argument from me there……Of course the Holocaust deniers know what they’re doing and of course it’s not ignorance, but evil and hate, that drives them.

    But it is dangerous for decent people not to refute them with facts and logic and everything at our disposal. The goal isn’t to change their minds…..the goal is to educate others so that they won’t be susceptible to their lies and to their misapplication of evidentiary rules. The latter — getting people to understand what constitutes proof and what doesn’t — is absolutely critical.

  • Jack

    Max, it would be a nice surprise if you set the example by climbing out of your crib one of these days.

  • Jack

    Go ask Max.

  • Larry

    A source for Jack’s cut and paste rebuttal

    Chuckie’s came from IHR, David Irving’s organization. As stated before, Mr. Irving was shown to the world to be a very bad liar. [I am not going to give a link to a holocaust denial site.]
    See http://www.HDOT.org

  • Larry

    You did the right thing there Jack. My only comment was that it would have been a tad better to include a link to your source. But I provided that for the benefit of others.

  • Jack

    Larry, nice try….it’s pretty obvious that you don’t care whether something is labeled or described honestly or accurately. What you care about is whether its labeling helps advance it if you’re for it.

    In other words, whatever it takes to advance what you favor, you’re all in. The ends always justify the means.

    Pretty cynical, but you assume everyone else is that way, too.

    Well, not everybody is. Lots of people are not.

  • Jack

    Good job, Larry. That indeed was the source.

  • Jack

    Max, both you and Charles are each pretty creepy in your own respective ways.

    You richly deserve each other.

  • Jack

    Eric sounds like the Edward G. Robinson character in The Ten Commandments — with the spiritual sensitivity of my golden retriever.

    Charles sounds like a classical anti-Semite who has deluded himself into thinking he can stand for God’s Law while hating God’s people, the Jews.

    Oh, I almost forgot…..Charlie says he doesn’t believe God’s Law has any relevance for today…..yet he still hits people with it.

    Go figure….

  • Jack

    This is like watching a senile Adolf wrestling Bozo the clown.

    Hard to know whether to laugh or gag.

  • Jack

    “Invisible friend” — very original, Max…..fresh from Atheist Central…..a zillion years ago….like all the cut-and-paste jobs you post from crackpot web sites manned by bug-eyed cranks.

  • Jack

    Funniest line of the week is Max (!) asking, “Is anyone grown up around here?”

  • Jack

    No, Max, people are perfectly capable of lying to and deceiving themselves and others on their own, without any help of priests, ministers, or religion.

    Just look in the mirror for a telling example.

  • Oh yes you are Jack – blatherers always do and it’s just as well that I have no positions. The Truth has no position. Let me know when you’re ready to learn.

  • PS David Irving is controlled opposition – period.

    So you ‘clever boys’ screwed up there too. LOL

    You really do fancy yourselves don’t you? What do they say about pride and falling?

  • Is that all you have Jack? I am very disappointed in you.

  • @ Hermes,

    No it’s you who needs to p1ss off due to the fact that you contribute nothing but error and emotive garbage to this thread.

    Perhaps if you typed with your fingers instead of your forehead, that would help.

  • As already stated The Jews are not Semites, they’re Hamites – sons of Ham via Canaan who was cursed by Noah.

    Semites are white people – period so if I were an anti-Semite I would be anti-myself.


  • What is it about the short term “The Jews are not His people” that you do not understand?

  • Larry

    “PS David Irving is controlled opposition – period.”

    And yet you cited him. That makes you a controlled shill as well.

  • Jack

    Charles, “anti-Semite” is a fancy word that means one who hates the Jews.

    You hate the Jews.

    Thus you are anti-Semitic.

  • Jack

    Charles, I fully understand perfectly well your line that “the Jews are not His people.”

    Problem is, I don’t agree with it. I have a consistent preference for what God’s Word, not Charles’ heart, says on the matter.

  • Jack

    Ben, I somehow doubt God is selective in whom He decides to wake up.

    There’s a fair chance that nobody gets to sleep in.

    Everybody’s got *(& on their stick, as my grandfather was fond of saying.

  • Jack

    The more likely explanation, Max, is the opposite. On the one hand, when Jesus returns, the world will be made right — no more wars or bloodshed or tyranny or other horrors. On the other hand, starting at the top with tyrants and moving on down, it won’t be pretty for people who treat reality as their plaything and use and abuse other people as things rather than fellow human beings.

    Bob Hope summed it up best:

    The good news is Jesus is returning.

    The bad news is he’s pis*ed.

  • Jack

    Charles, based on your logic, nothing requires elaboration.

    Maybe that’s why you’re so ignorant of the Bible. It’s says more than “a cat sat on a hat.”

  • Jack

    If the past is prologue, we’re headed for some interesting times. One doesn’t even have to believe in God to predict this. The life cycles of past civilizations amply demonstrate it. Sigmund Freud, who clearly was an atheist, was deathly afraid of moral and political anarchy, through the “id” triumphing over the “superego.” He voiced his fear in Civilization and its Discontents.

    Christians can be the boy who cried wolf, but history shows that eventually the wolf shows up at the door. Every great civilization that collapsed was once considered impregnable.

  • Jack

    For some posters (mostly atheists) who are yucking it up over other posters (mostly Christians) warning about God’s judgment, here’s a thought to ponder:

    Even if there’s no God, it’s a demonstrable fact that civilizations rise and fall and have life cycles that have been observed by historians for centuries and millennia. There are clear patterns of thought and behavior that contribute to their rise, and equally clear patterns that lead to their fall. Nobody ever gets the precise timing right in terms of predictions, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out, for example, that when societies are into hard work and thrift and delaying gratification, they are usually on the upswing and when they favor consumption and debt and instant gratification, they are sowing the seeds for their fall.

    It’s rather clear where we’re at now — closer to the latter than the former. The good news is that we have built up plenty of moral and economic capital from the past. The bad news is we’re drawing down these accounts and adding little to them. The good news is that we had a tremendous renaissance in the 1980s and 1990s in every arena. The bad news is that we’re overdue for a new renaissance or renewal.

  • Jack

    And to add to that, it is never fun being around when a civilization or nation or empire actually falls. God or no God, when it collapses, it feels like it’s the end of the world. It’s every man or woman for themselves, a Hobbesian war of all against all as the entire infrastructure of civilized life is disabled.

    This is not some vision of a science-fiction or biblical apocalypse, but a sober acknowledgment that no civilization is immune and that when prior civilizations have eventually fallen, it has never been pretty.

  • Billysees


    “Religion creates uncritical minds which cannot discern evidence.”

    How very true.

  • Billysees


    Hehehe….never heard it written that way…hehehe…