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  • Karla

    Bible says man shall perish because of their lack of knowledge so it is good
    people are leaving mormonism/are getting the facts that they didn’t know so
    they can have all the information/the Truth. Joseph Smith was/is a fraud so
    mormonism is a fraud. Bible says that if anyone comes to you and preaches
    another/different Gospel don’t listen. Luke 13 says we are all known by our
    fruit and that fruit is of a Repentance not good works because good works
    don’t save plus many non-believers do good works. Jesus was not created
    and is part of the Trinity/Godhead. Emmanuel means God with us so Jesus
    is God with us as part of the Godhead/Trinity. Godhead is in the Bible a few
    times so we need to stick to what the Bible says which is Jesus was/is God!

  • ben in oakland

    If they’re not willing to address the extreme improbability of the creator of the infinite universe helping joe smith to translate the Great Revelation by communicating to him through the juggling of a couple rocks in a hat, then I suspect that the other messy parts of Mormon history will also get a pass.

  • Larry

    This is one of those few moments when the creators of South Park get it just right.

    In their episode devoted to how people criticize LDS beliefs, “All About Mormons”, they hit upon probably the sanest reaction one can have to the criticism of LDS beliefs/alleged history. Instead of excuses or making ridiculous claims of objective credibility, simply acknowledging articles of faith and leaving them as faith.

    “Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life, and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don’t care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that’s stupid, I still choose to believe in it”

  • To Karla,
    Perhaps a re-reading of the New Testament would be good for us all. While Luke 13 does talk about repentance the term ‘good works” is not to be found in that chapter. I doubt you are not the only one who believes in repentance but referencing it does not prove you point. Furthermore doing good works is not something we need be ashamed of. The New Testament speaks of it often and in positive terms. Please note these verses: Matt.5:16; John 10:32; Acts 9:36; Romans 13:3; Ephesians 2:17; 1 Tim. 1:10,18-19; Titus 1:16, 2:7, 3:10; Heb.10:24 and 1Peter 2:12. If the story of the Good Samaritan teaches us anything it is love and concern for others, i.e. good works.
    To claim that Joseph Smith is a fraud is just name calling. One might say you dress funny and have no friends. There that proves what I said because I said it. The word “Godhead” does nothing to define the term. Many theologians argue still of its uncertain meaning. To extrapolate a title of Christ, that is Emmanuel…

  • To Karla, I continue my remarks which were only partly posted

    To extrapolate a title of Christ, that is Emmanuel verifies the Nicene Creed is pure desperation. If you are suggesting LDS do not believe Christ is God you are at great fault. What we don’t believe is that the Godhead is of the same substance, yet three different persons. Using the Nicene Creed as your reference would you please explain the last few words of verse 17 of John 20 which says “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
    Now as to your claim that Mormons teach a different Gospel again is just your untested idea. Would you please stop being a spiritual coward and tell us what you believe so we may test whether you’re indeed the one who believes in a gospel that does not fit the Bible. May I suggest you consult mormon.org for a more precise understanding of what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teach?

  • Karla

    Stephen Buck- Jesus said before Abraham I Am which shows Jesus was
    not created/the birth of Jesus was a miracle not a creation. Mr Smith is
    a fraud because he made predictions that didn’t come true/he teaches
    false things as do you so you are a fraud as well not cause I say it but
    because the Word of God does and I follow the Word of God/the Truth
    unlike yourself so enjoy your time here on earth because eternity in hell
    is where you are going because you are a heretic sir just like all of the
    Jehovah witnesses who should be called false witnesses. God bless.

  • Karla

    Stephen Buck-I told you before what I believe and how anyone can still
    want to follow mormonism is beyond my belief. Joseph Smith taught so
    many false things that have been proven to be complete nonsense it’s
    laughable to call Joseph Smith a prophet because he’s a heretic and so
    are you. No true prophet can be revered if they are a liar and Mr. Smith
    was/is a proven liar with the “spirit” bride nonsense when there is no sex
    in heaven and all of the predictions he made that didn’t come true. Bible
    says if anyone preaches another Gospel they’ll be eternally condemned
    and even if an angel appears to you/says something different don’t listen
    and the Bible is very clear what happens to someone like Joseph Smith.

  • Karla,
    That Christ existed before his coming in the fullness of time as the Bible terms it is a belief of LDS since its establishment. Again you don’t seem to understand LDS beliefs in the slightest way. We teach that Christ is the God of the Old Testament whose name and title is Jehovah.
    Perhaps you can tell us what prophecies Joseph Smith gave us, that as you say, did not come true. Please don’t skip over this request as you often do, tell us and perhaps we can account for his teachings. Thanks for condemning me to hell forever. I believe you are a good person and I do not wish the same on you.

    By the way you failed to explain John 20:17 in terms of the Nicene Creed as you also failed to tell us about your beliefs and where they stem from. If you dish it out you ought to be able to defend your own set of beliefs. I know you believe and teach from the Bible but please be more precise. I am running our space and will complete my thoughts in a minute or two.

  • To Karla, (continued reply)
    As far as Christ’s birth being a miracle. We would concur, even though the Bible uses no such term. We claim that Christ existed prior to the creation of earth but was at the time a spirit and came to the earth to receive a physical body. He was born of a human mother but a heavenly father. John 14 teaches The Word (Christ) was made flesh and dwelt among us. To me that speaks of creation. That is what the resurrection is all about; our bodies re-united with our spirit. After the Crucifixion Christ’s body lay in a grave but his Spirit continued to exist and after 3 days his body and spirit was reunited. This same blessing (miracle) will happen to all. For since by man came death by Christ all shall be made alive.

  • Karla

    Stephen Buck-I don’t want you to go hell which is why I was so stern in my
    response. The point I was trying to make is I hope you leave mormonism
    but if you stay in that belief the Bible says you will go to hell so I was only
    tryin to give you a firm warning/sayin what the Bible says. I don’t want you
    to go to hell which is why I came on here to help warn the mormons so at
    this point we can just agree to disagree but thanks for the input….by the
    way we all are already condemned to/going to hell which is why we need
    to Repent/accept Christ so I hope that you leave mormonism. God bless.

  • To Karla,
    Thank you for saving me from hell if only I will repent and renounce Mormonism. But you have failed to tell me why Mormonism will send me to that horrible hottest of hot spots. Have you ever asked yourself why a God of love is so eager to send his children to flounder in such a miserable place for eternity??????
    Again you have failed to answer any of your concerns about Mormonism other than to say it’s all a lie. If you are going to save me you will have to do much better than you are. And you will need to tell us about your beliefs and then defend them by referring to the Bible. Love and all that good sister.

  • Karla

    Stephen-As I said when you deny Jesus is God/say He was created plus
    teach works/polytheism and only a few go to outer darkness you create
    a god/idol to suit yourselves/seperate yourself from a Biblical christianity
    which is idolatry and all idolaters go to hell. You don’t need the book of
    mormon or Joseph Smith because they have both been proven frauds.
    We only need to Repent/trust in Jesus to be saved so I have told you
    why the mormon belief system is false. Jesus was not created/is God!

  • Fran

    Yes, Jesus did say that before Abraham came into existence he had been (John 8:58).

    He could say that because at John 17:24, Jesus stated that his Father loved him before the founding of the world (which was before Abraham).

    And yes, the birth of God’s son on earth was a miracle because God transferred the life of his “first-born of all CREATION” into the womb of Mary, to be born as a perfect human.

    Jesus could say that because Colossians 1:15,16 tells us Jesus is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all CREATION, and that through Jesus all other things were created in heaven and upon earth.

    Jesus was the first person to be created by his Father, and he is also the son of God who later became a human man. The Bible also confirms that he is now a spirit person, like his Father (John 4:24), as confirmed by the apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:45:

    “It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving…

  • Fran


    That last Adam is Jesus who gave his perfect life as a ransom sacrifice for all imperfect mankind because Adam lost his perfection due to sin (Matthew 20:28), as well as losing it for all his descendants.

  • Karla

    Fran-Jesus was not created/He is God and you need to do some
    research because First Born over creation refers to His rank not
    that He was created. The Trinity/Godhead is one God with three
    parts not three different Gods.

  • Karla,
    Reason with yourself for a minute. If Christ, the Father and the Holy Ghost are indeed of the same substance (in the Greek Homoiousis is the term found in the Nicene Creed to describe the oneness of the Godhead) , and therefore one person and at the same 3 persons there is unsolved contradiction here. At one time you are a monotheist and at the same time a polytheist you have a problem. The term homoiousis is not found in the Bible but is a pagan term. Your calling Mormons names like POLYTHEIST is nonsense. Why? Because the same term fits you also! Christ or his Apostles never taught anything like the Nicene Creed. If you wish to a believer in biblical Christianity you will dismiss the doctrine of the trinity as taught in the Nicene Creed. Once again you’re calling Joseph Smith a fraud but site nothing to prove your point. Why do you refuse to prove your claims?

  • Fran


    If you choose not to believe what the Bible tells us about Jesus being created (Colossians 1:15, 16), that is your choice. I will continue to believe it as truth.

    In addition, please refer to Revelation 3:14, which says:

    “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING of the CREATION OF GOD.”

    Again, this also confirms that Jesus was created by God and is his son. Whether or not you believe that statement, as well, Is your choice.

    Jesus’ rank is directly second place, under his Father, Almighty God, and always will be (1 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Corinthians 15:28).

    There is no Trinity doctrine taught in the Bible: There is only one true Almighty God, whose name is Jehovah (Psalm 83:18); one son of God, Jesus (Matthew 3:17), whose rank is just below his Father; and God’s Holy Spirit or his active force used to accomplish his purposes.

    There are no “three Gods” in…

  • Fran


    Fortunately, there is only the common grave of mankind where the dead are asleep in death (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10). There is no place of fiery torment forever, even concerning those who are wicked (Psalm 37:10,11). As the psalmist says, they will simply not exist.

    So there is no need to worry or have a morbid fear of something that does not exist.

  • Karla

    Fran-Yes the Godhead is in the Bible and so is hell so you need to do
    some more research. Why would Jesus warn us about hell if there is no
    hell and go to the Cross to save us if all we do is sleep? The Bible says
    in Matthew 13:42 hell is a place of wepoing and gnashing of teeth plus
    Matthew 25:46 says hell is eternal punishment and in Revelation 20:10
    and also in Revelation 20:15 so that all shows hell is a very real place.
    Jesus died so we don’t have to go to hell and the rich man was in hell
    so he wanted to go warn his brothers not to come to hell so again it
    shows that hell is real torment not just sleep plus if all we do is sleep
    why would Jesus go through all that on the Cross/warn us about hell
    is all people do is sleep? Bible also says it would have been better if
    Judas had never been born so again that shows hell is real. Bible
    also says it would be better to lose an eye than to go to hell.

  • To Fran,
    I agree with your statement about hell to some degree. I do not believe as some do, i.e. some will exist in fire for eternity. The Bible speaks of hell for sure and will the institution of hell will exist forever. However, most persons assigned there will not be reside there endlessly. After they have paid the utmost farthing they will be released. Hell is also not endless torment.

  • To Fran,
    I mostly agree with your comments about hell. I am not worried about some place where even the untaught burn forever. I was only asking Karla to explain the reasoning behind a god that would send his children to burn forever. It does not make sense to me. Hell as concept is a Bible teaching but it does not say those who are sent there will burn forever because of sin. It does say hell is eternal as an institution but it does not speak to those who go, that they will reside there for eternity. About the fire of hell I do not believe hell has anything to do with consuming of one’s flesh. I believe it is about torment of the mind and a chance to rethink sin. And how restricts us and limits our choices and freedom.

  • ben in oakland

    Faith is all that’s required. Proof is for sissies.

  • Fran


    I agree with you that even barring looking at what the Bible has to teach, the Trinity doctrine, in and of itself, makes no absolute sense! It’s not called a “mystery” by many for nothing!

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