Indianapolis in crisis mode after tourism hit by religious bill

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Organizers fire up a crowd of demonstrators gathered to protest a controversial religious freedom bill recently signed by Governor Mike Pence, in Indianapolis on March 28, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Nate Chute
*Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-INDIANA-FIX, orginally transmitted on April 2, 2015.

Organizers fire up a crowd of demonstrators gathered to protest a controversial religious freedom bill recently signed by Governor Mike Pence, in Indianapolis on March 28, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Nate Chute *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-INDIANA-FIX, orginally transmitted on April 2, 2015.

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(Reuters) Indianapolis, a corn belt city of 850,000 with a $4.4 billion tourism industry, has gone into full-on damage control to make sure its growing convention business is not harmed by a national uproar over a religious freedom bill that Pence signed into law last week.

  • Ramen

    All hail almighty “$”, we bow down before thee. Bless us with more “$s” as we need an abundant flow of your presence in the midst of thine ardent followers.
    All the days of our lives we pledge to worship and adore thine divine “$” presence amongst us.

  • Pingback: Indianapolis in crisis mode after tourism hit by religious bill - by Father Ron Gronowski - Rev Ron Gronowski - The Reverend()

  • opheliart

    Ha-ha! No, this was a performance. These are actors who shall not be named. Do you think these ‘men’ didn’t know what to expect? I am still smiling … because what comes next will surprise many.

  • Anton

    “We have been working around the clock in crisis mode because the perception of Indy being unwelcoming has been everywhere,” said Chris Gahl. . .”

    I am happy to see he is wise enough not to characterize the crisis as resulting from misunderstanding and misinformation like Pence and his collaborators, who apparently think everybody but themselves are idiots. Pence and his cronies are 100% responsible for the correct perceptions that people have about this law, and they will not take 1% of the blame for it. I am beginning to think the state is run by sociopaths.

  • Larry

    Be a martyr with your own money. It was the height of stupidity to expect to pass a blatantly discriminatory law in this day and age without word getting out and generating an instant reaction.

    Too bad its another year before major elections. By that time most people will forget how bigots tried to deep-six various state economies trying to bring back a new version of Jim Crow

  • Larry

    In all fairness the mayor of Indianapolis (who happens to be Republican) opposed this law from the get-go as dangerously stupid and counter-productive. So his office has no reason to CYA here.

    This law is beginning to show the cracks in the Republican party between fiscal and social conservatives. This will only deepen in the next year.

  • Doc Anthony

    Gotta love that all that ECONOMIC BLACKMAIL, folks.

    That’s the best way to make sure these no-good uppity Christian business owners (and church-related businesses, agencies, and facilities, of course) kowtow properly to the Gay Marriage Cult with no more backtalk.

  • Ted

    What, bigotry alienates people? In related news, water remains wet today.

  • Ted

    It’s a free market, Doc. Act like a jerk and people will stop giving you their money.

    Your favorite Jewish carpenter was kind to everyone and never said one single word against homosexuals. So, why do you call yourself his follower?

  • Ted

    Jesus never spoke a single word against homosexuals.

    So, why do all the homo-hating bigots think they’re his followers?

  • Ben in oakland

    Doc is certainly not a follower of Jesus. He thinks he IS Jesus.

  • Larry

    Doc thinks he is George Wallace

  • opheliart

    “God became man that man might become God,” is from the church father Athanasius (ca 298–373) … according to church records.


  • James Carr

    Why would Jesus need to speak about homosexuals? The idea of it was anathema since Creation.

  • Doc Anthony

    “So, why do you call yourself his follower?”

    First, because He saved me (John 3:16. Rev. 3:20). Gotta follow Him. He saved me.

    Second, the carpenter Jesus, the Guy who saved me, explicitly said out loud:

    4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
    5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
    6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    So, since Jesus said that, I follow that. Jesus specified that the origin, design, and nature of marriage, as created by God, is ALWAYS gender-complementarian.

    Homosexual ‘marriage’ is not even a marriage; it is absolutely **NOT** what God designed and ordained.

    So, I follow Jesus, and because I do, I therefore oppose homosexual “marriage.” Do you follow Jesus as well?

  • bqrq

    James Carr – good point, the idea of it is anathema and has always been wrong.

    Ted – your words about Jesus are empty. Jesus is not gay and he did not condone gay sex.


    Oh, doc, there you go again. I guess it’s not economic blackmail when YOUR side does it.

    In March 2012, NOM launched their boycott of Starbucks. Since Starbucks’ stock value has almost doubled, rising from $48.96 to $97.46. In June 2012, NOM launched their boycott of General Mills. Since then General Mills’ stock value has soared from $37.90 to $56.55. Today is the day you might want to add Angie’s List to your portfolio. From NOM’s petition:

    “Dear Mr. Oesterle, I have canceled my Angie’s List membership because you have demonstrated clearly over the past few days that you oppose religious liberty and have no regard for my most precious, fundamental values and beliefs. I am also encouraging all of my family and friends who have Angie’s List accounts to do the same. Your disregard for religious freedom is shameful and I will not be giving you another cent of my business because of it.”

  • Doc Anthony

    Well, you’re right that NOM has occasionally engaged in boycotts, which is economic blackmail. I think American Family Association occasionally called for boycotts. So you’re right.

    But the economic blackmail against Indiana, the one that you support, the one that has proven successful, is specifically, malodorously, and even viciously EVIL. Unbelievably so. Unprecedented so. Uniquely so. There are NO upsides to it at all. Evil.

    First of all, the democratic process itself in Indiana has been **severely damaged.** Voters have been cheated of their right to make their own decisions (via voting) into law. Outside forces now DICTATE to them what their law will or will not be.

    The will of Indiana voters who voted for the legislators, the will of Indiana legislators who passed the law, the will of Indiana’s elected governor who signed and supported the law, that entire democratic process, got wiped out…

  • Fran

    The entire world is in “crisis mode”, just as Jesus foretold it would be (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) in these last days of a wicked era.

  • ben in oakland

    People, businesses, and churches made their opinions known. The governor and the legislators listened.

    So you are against the democratic process. got it.

  • Doc Anthony

    …Wiped out because some pro-gay-marriage folks (and yes, I include a certain church denomination that knew better) were THREATENING every person in the state (even ordinary people that weren’t involved).

    Threatening each Indianan with loss of state money that’s needed to preserve infrastructure like roads; money for education; money for food stamps and TANF for their poor families and kids, money to fight against dangerous criminals, money to help their Unemployed.

    All that money for basic needs for everyone in the state — HELD HOSTAGE by the pro-gay-marriage cultists.

    All that terrorist ECONOMIC BLACKMAIL, just to make sure that NO governmental protections exist in Indiana to legally protect simple Christian family businesses like MemoriesPizza,
    (which serve gay and straight folks alike, but now is closed, likely for good, because of pro-gay terrorism.)

    And all this to promote Gay Marriage and fight God..
    So, THIS econonic blackmail = EVIL!

  • ben in oakland1

    Well, doc, you will always find an excuse, won’t you?

  • Billysees


    “Why would Jesus need to speak about homosexuals?”

    I think that He probably didn’t speak much about something of which there was little interest in at the time.

    So, what subject matter would His conversation primarily be concerned with?

    That answer leads us here —
    But now we have died to those laws that bound us. God has broken their effect on us so that we are serving in a ‘new spiritual way’, not in an old way dictated by written words………Romans 7:6

    In other words, Jesus’ words might be primarily based on the ‘laws that bound us’. But as Rom 7:6 reveals, we are now ‘serving in a NEW spiritual way’.

    That’s very important. I think we can effectively say that ‘the Spirit and the Spirit alone is all that really matters’.

    So, what all these LGBT issues we hear, read and talk about is probably the work of the ‘Spirit’ doing something it wants to to be done.

    Maybe the ‘Spirit’ doesn’t want to see LGBT’s persecuted.

  • Vicar Dave

    Is the Indy Gov going to walk in the next Pride Parade?

  • Greg

    Yes, through the Sacrament of Baptism we are joined to the Body of Christ, and receive share in his Divine Nature: Gal. 3:27: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” 2Peter 1:4: For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

  • Greg

    Yes, it was only when St. Paul went out into the Pagan world to evangelize did he encounter many things that shocked him: “God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who … delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error” (Romans Chapter 1). We can see here that homosexuality is not a sin, but acting upon it certainly is both against nature, and God Almighty.

  • Greg

    Politicians will do whatever is expedient for their career. He needs to be run out of office in the next primary. But … wait a minute, he will then become the next Charlie Crist, and run as a Democrat.

  • Anton

    If that “prophecy” ever becomes true, it will be because it was self-fulfilled by a bunch of overzealous religious nut-jobs.

  • Anton

    Was I not fair? Sexual orientation and gender identity was added to the city’s HRO in 2005, when it passed 15-14, after being championed by Democrats. Two Republicans voted for it and two Democrats voted against it. Mayor Peterson (D) established it by Executive Order for city business in 2004. I wonder how Mayor Ballard, a life-long Catholic and career Marine, would have voted then. My guess is that his “enlightenment” still goes only as far as his Bishops allow. And you could place a pretty solid bet on where they were in 2005.

  • Barry the Baptist

    Are you arguing that the “pro-gay-marriage cultists” are morally compelled to spend their money to support a state of people that voted in a way that the former found disagreeable?

    As long as the people of Indiana are dependent on that money from “[o]utside forces,” they will be beholden to the will of those forces. That is how capitalism works. It’s called voting with your wallet.

    If you want to have your both the money and the ability to discriminate as you like, you need to prove that there is a sufficient benefit in supplying you with both. You will then need to get a government subsidy voted through which compels the taxpayer to support your behavior; as is being proven in Indiana and elsewhere, the free market won’t.

    To do otherwise is undemocratic.

  • James Carr

    That’s a presumption you cannot make, if you are speaking of the sin of homosexual acts and it’s false application to the sacrament of marriage.
    Jesus died for our sins, He did not remove our ability to sin. Love, to God, is far removed from sexual attraction, lust,etc. Sexual relations serve one purpose… unite two as one and produce children……something gays cannot do. We can not reimagine the natural intent of our bodies to include something else and decide that God would agree with us.

  • Doc Anthony

    Oh no Barry, I’d never pass a law forcing the Disciples of Christ (Christian Church) to hold their lucrative 2017 Convention in Indiana. In fact, if I were governor, I’d sign some kind of law that made it too expensive to hold that one convention in Indiana for the next 30 years (minimum).

    NASCAR and NCAA would be thrown out the window next, and of course I’d have a standing arrest order for New York’s Andrew Cuomo the second he placed one dirty toenail within Indiana state lines. (Immediate placement at the Wabash Valley Maximum Facility, of course. He’d love it — or at least deserve it.)

    But you’re right — Economic Blackmail ultimately relies on the consent of the blackmailed. If Indianans put Morality above Money, if they put Christ above Cash, then suddenly the spell is broken and the demonic blackmail is ended.

    Indiana’s voters, legislators and Governor DID have that option, but now they’ve messed up and repealed their own Religious Freedom.

  • Fran

    Jesus’ ransom sacrifice and his millennial rule will soon put an end to inherited sin and imperfection so that mankind will live forever on earth, God’s original purpose for humans.

  • Fran


    False religion which gets involved in politics, violence and wars won’t be around for much longer. They will receive their deserved judgment from God, whom they claim to represent. Their end will be at the hands of the world’s political systems, which will thereafter be destroyed by God, so that God’s government can begin its righteous, loving and just millennial rule over man on earth (Daniel 2:44; Isaiah 11:1-9).

  • Larry

    Its official, the state has turned itself into a national joke.

    “If I wanted to see what life was like in the 1960s, I’d go to Indiana!”
    -Taran Killam SNL

    Greg became a running gag when he gave money to the bigoted pizza place owner so she could have a money fight.

  • Ted

    Haters gonna hate.

  • Wow.
    Some people in Indiana are learning a lesson. Bigotry doesn’t pay.

    Unless you are religious. Then bigotry is a blessed sacrament:

    “Execute them”- JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    “Hate Them” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)
    “Avoid Them” – ROMANS (16:17)
    “Do not associate with the GUILTY..” (1 Corinthians 5:11)
    “Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends.” – Allah (Sura 5:51)
    “Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them.” – Allah (Sura 2:191)
    “Infidels are those who declare: “God is the Christ, the son of Mary.” – Allah (Sura 5:17)

    Imagine how awful it would be to discover that none of these Gods is real.
    Think of all the misery these injunctions would have caused ……

    ……for nothing.

  • Billysees


    “That’s a presumption you cannot make…”

    Considering that —
    O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways!……Romans 11:33…
    …I can ‘only’ make a guess or presumption.

    It does appear though that because of a considerable amount of sympathy for LGBT’s and their issues, that either the power of God or the power of Satan is behind all of this.

    I prefer to guess or be presumptuous in favor that the ‘power of God’ is doing all of this.

    “We can not reimagine the natural intent of our bodies to include something else and decide that God would agree with us.”

    That’s true.

    He certainly may not agree with us, but He may allow certain things without penalty, sort of like folks who get divorced in an unapproved way — He doesn’t condemn the new marriage. They can live happily forever without fear of some sort of wrath from above.

  • Billysees,

    “They can live happily forever without fear of some sort of wrath from above.”

    Spoken like a true Atheist.

    There is no evidence for a life after death but if one exists it must be available for everyone – just as gravity is available for everyone – regardless of whether one believes or not.

    We are all free to believe in god or not.
    If we choose to think of God as a loving spirit and act to be such a spirit ourselves we are not likely to do much harm. Nor will it matter whether we simply call it a philosophy instead of a religion.

    Only in the Bible will you find condemnation for non belief of particulars. This disqualifies the bible as a humane document. Fear and threats are not loving and never will be.

    Religion, the Bible and the Q’uran should be abandoned. If God exists and he is just, he will understand.

    These books are divisive nonsense.

  • “Hate Them” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)

  • Be Brave


    It sure looks like it is you gay activists (make that every gay person) and the “democratic party” that hails your platform . . . is making it a reality that Christians can’t vote.

  • Larry

    If I wanted to become rich really quick, I will pretend to be the owner of an ice cream shop and tell people on local radio that I will not provide sundaes for a gay wedding. Take a little vacation and close up shop for a week. Then just set up a gofundme site and watch all the dumb bunny bigots send me money.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    “We Americans never forget such important matters like celebrating pride in gay sex.”

    Normal, non-homophobic Americans see gay pride parades as standing up for equality, but a few think it’s about “gay sex”? Scientists have proven that:

    “Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.”



    An agency of the federal government, the National Institutes of Health, publishes a supporting study:


    Here’s a video that illustrates that study:

    How about a You-tube SONG that explains this?

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Actually,a clear majority of lay American Catholics reject and condemn the crass anti-gay political machinations of the bishops:

    “Our analysis found that this increasingly diverse Catholic community is strongly supportive of acceptance of and rights for gay and lesbian Americans. Generally speaking, Catholics are at least 5 points more supportive than the general population across a range of issues. For example, nearly three-quarters (73 percent) of Catholics favor laws that would protect gay and lesbian people against discrimination in the workplace; 63 percent of Catholics favor allowing gay and lesbian people to serve openly in the military; and 60% favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to adopt children.

    On the more contentious issue of same-sex marriage, the evidence is also stacking up for solid Catholic support at both the national and state levels. A Washington Post/ABC News Poll recently found that fully 63 percent of Catholics supported making it legal for gay and…

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Jesus Himself debunked that anti-gay propaganda. Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. Many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Can you provide us with some documentation for that wild claim that “Christians can’t vote”? Remember, more American Christians favor marriage equality than oppose the United States Constitution and agree with the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    But, Doc, you support a law that says the many Christian and Jewish denominations who WANT to marry same gender couples be DENIED their FREEDOM OF RELIGION.

  • Anton

    Fran, Is this the kind of thing you’re talking about:

    It seems the same to me.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    It isn’t “hatred” to reject anti-gay hate speech. This routine anti-gays are desperately trying to promote, that their intended LGBT victims are “the real haters,” is what psychologists call “projection.”

  • shawnie5

    Still waiting to hear whose same sex lover Jairus’ daughter was, and why her parents were letting a 12 year old engage in that kind of behavior. 😀

  • shawnie5

    Burns you up, obviously. It should, as you and your allies are directly responsible for it.

  • shawnie5

    …at Larry and her resentful screed about businesses recovering their losses from pc bullying and then some.

  • Larry

    Shawnie, I am not a “she”. Larry is typically a shortened form of Lawrence. A male surname. Great Flying Spaghetti Monster’s Alfredo Avatar!, do you get anything right? 🙂

    “recovering their losses from pc bullying and then some.”

    LMAO! Bwahahaahahahaahaaa. That pizzeria owner just soaked Bible thumping bigots for more money than her shop would gross in at least 5 years. She is to be admired for being so clever. Same can’t be said about the lugnuts who contributed money.

    Keep telling yourself it was to recover for her losses. Anything to salve your ego after contributing to her ability to roll around on a bed of $100 bills with her friends. I am just having fun with this.

  • shawnie5

    “I am just having fun with this.”

    Sure you are. Tell you what I’m having fun with…you guys’ efforts putting more money into the “homophobes'” pockets than they ever would have seen had they been left in peace. Good job. You’ll be seeing a lot more of this.

    “A male surname.”

    There is no such thing as a male surname. Lawrence could well be your real surname, of course.

    But anyway, it’s hard to use male pronouns wrt you because I’ve never believed you were a man since the day I observed you ranting about “slut-shaming,” which is an activity almost exclusively engaged in, and complained of, by young women.

  • @Billysees,

    “O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God.”

    Which of these decisions showed wisdom or knowledge?

    1. Drowning all of humanity in a flood, then counting on incest to increase the population which he regretted wiping out?

    2. Commanding Slavery?
    3. Commanding Mass Murder?
    4. Commanding Mass Rape?
    5. Commanding mass Abortions?
    6. Commanding men to burn their daughters alive?
    7. Creating Gay people, calling them his children, then commanding non gays to slaughter them anyway? (Leviticus 20:13)

    If all of these things are wise – then doing whatever nasty thing you want to do is perfectly fine.

    If all of these things are the fruit of great knowledge – then doing all of these nasty things is honorable.

    Think. About. It.
    If “Eternal Life” is the reward for doing whatever good or nasty thing you want to do – what is this parlor trick really all about?

  • Jack

    Midwesterners are too nice and a little too intimidated of others when they aren’t nice to them. The idea that a religious freedom law that sounds more like a Rorschach test than anything else is going to have a permanent impact on business is just silly. Indiana needs to chill out.

  • Jack

    Not as much you think, Larry. Most social conservatives are fiscal conservatives and vice versa. It would be more accurate to say that the real fissure is between libertarians and traditional conservatives….but even there, the fissure is about gay marriage itself, not religious freedom. You have to go beyond libertarianism as well as conservatism to arrive at your bus stop on this matter.

  • Jack

    Typical response to a black dude like Doc who dares to disagree with the enforcers of the radical left. Just call him the equivalent of an Uncle Tom……Way to be classy, Larry.

  • Jack

    CarrotCake, that’s a stretch. While the Romans had no problem with homosexuality, that wasn’t true of Judea and Galilee. The centurion would be taking a risk to be having an open relationship of that kind in that environment. The Romans were quite concerned about Jewish religious sensibilities because they didn’t want a revolt or riot on their hands….Such disturbances centering on such sensibilities were common.

    Moreover, if the centurion had decided to throw caution to the wind, it is probable that the Gospel writers would have elaborated, precisely because of the above.

    But even if there was a relationship that the writers noted but somehow did not elaborate upon, the fact that Jesus healed the servant says nothing about Jesus’ attitude on the issues we’re discussing. It says He was compassionate. It doesn’t tell us whether He would have attended a marriage ceremony had that society had one.

    And that’s the whole point.

  • Jack

    Jesus failed to talk about lots of issues……Many come to mind, including yoga, chocolate cake, table tennis, 747s, light bulbs, BMWs, gut courses at Princeton, and the like.

  • Jack

    Anton, if the past is prologue, expect prophecies to continue to be fulfilled.

    But then again, how would you know? You’d have to know (1) what’s in the Bible and (2) what’s in the history books.

  • Jack

    Billysees, based on that logic, we would have throw out even the commands you presumably agree with.

    If you’re going to argue your position, you’ll have to do better than falling into the old antinomian heresy.

  • @Jack,

    I’m an Atheist – which only means ‘I do not believe your claim that God exists.’

    I arrived at this opinion (not a claim) by reading The Bible, listening to the claims religious people make and watching their behavior.

    Your Religion is the set of rules which follow from the claims about your God. As there is no evidence of your god, it follows that your Religion is doubly dangerous.

  • @Jack,

    If your God exists he is bigoted and cruel and deserves to be suffer for it.


    “For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken. No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.”
    (Leviticus 21:18-21)

    Thankfully this monster is fictional. Like the Big Bad Wolf who chased the pigs.

    But my problem is not the Big Bad Wolf.
    It is that too many people think this ridiculous nonsense is REAL and as a result they want to kill people or deny others the right to think for themselves.

  • Billysees


    Because the ‘Reply’ feature was not available for your comments of April 6, 2015 at 3:41 am and 10:12 pm, I’ll reply to them here —

    “Only in the Bible will you find condemnation for non belief of particulars… Fear and threats are ‘not loving’ and never will be.”

    I very much agree here. I’ve always been unhappy with the obvious anger and hatred expressed towards unbelievers scripture.

    We’ve all known, grown up with, made friends with, went to school with and worked in the workplace with all kinds of unbelievers and I do NOT see nor can I feel the way scripture does about such people, many simply of a different faith. They are commonly called heathen and other unfriendly words.

    If we were in an accident and had to go to the hospital, would we ask for a ‘believer’ to treat us? Will a believing doctor do a better job than an unbelieving one? Can an employee at a tire store do a better job of installing new tires on our car if he’s a believer?…

  • Billysees


    Again, Because the ‘Reply’ feature was not available for your comments of April 6, 2015 at 3:41 am and 10:12 pm, I’ll reply to them here —

    “Which of these decisions showed wisdom or knowledge?”

    You list many examples. I cannot make any argument here.

    I conclude then that many many things in scripture are simply screwy and as you appropriately wrote, “If God exists and he is just, he will understand.”

  • Billysees


    Here’s something I think you’ll find interesting. I think it may explain ‘why’ Jesus makes some hateful and unfriendly comments.

    “…he learned obedience by the things which he suffered: ……….Hebrews 5:8”

    If he ‘learned obedience’ then he must have been ‘disobedient’ in some manner. What was the nature of this disobedience we would want to know.

    I will suggest that the basis of this disobedience was his ‘immaturity’. That would make pretty good sense in that he was embarking on a journey he had never done before and that this inexperience led him to be incapable of doing a really ‘good job’ of saying and doing the right things.

    But we’re concerned with his words. It would be interesting to know at what point in his ministry did he make those comments you quote —

    “Execute them”- JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    “Hate Them” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)

    Again, I will think that his own frail immaturity led him to be too quick to speak without thinking about…

  • Billysees

    @ Jack,

    I just read about this antinomianism. Never heard of it before. Interesting and very extensive explanation —

    “If you’re going to argue your position, you’ll have to do better than falling into the old antinomian heresy.”

    I need more of what you’re saying here.

  • Billysees


    “We can see here that homosexuality is not a sin, but acting upon it certainly is both against nature, and God Almighty.”

    Can’t it be said that ‘acting upon it’ is allowable, lawful and permissible according to 1 Corinthians 6:12…and 1 Corinthians 10:23 ?

    Can’t it also be said that —
    ‘Blessed’ are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right……last part of Romans 14:22

    Take special note of the word ‘Blessed’.

    You can think of it this way also —

    Happy is the boy or girl or man or woman who do not condemn themselves for the things they know makes them the happiest.

    Why hinder LGBT’s with some kind of celibacy just because their love and affection towards one another is frowned upon by those who are not interested in understanding the issue?

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