• Larry

    What self-important nonsense!

    As if anyone is asking SBC churches to perform gay weddings. Nobody is forcing them to do them either.

    Although they don’t want gay kids to be shunned, the entire church is dedicated to denying those gay kids the ability to engage in open commerce, maintain employment, find housing, or exercise their right to get married through government officiates.

    They call for sacrifices in exchange for keeping their bigoted stance, but not really. They stump for the religious-based discrimination laws. So they have license to attack the rights of others in service of their faith without reprecussions.

    The SBC is preparing for marriage equality the same ay they prepared for desegregation. By doubling down on discriminatory rhetoric and trying to weasel their way around laws which are meant to prevent discrimination.

  • Linda

    Well said!

  • Doc Anthony

    They’ve already taken your advice, and clearly outdistanced every other church denomination (imo), on one vital issue — racial reconciliation.

  • Doc Anthony

    You have NOT refuted the three specific points (and especially not the specific quotations that support each point) of this article. Try doing so.

  • Eric
  • Eric

    And the quote from Mohler, “don’t panic, the cops won’t arrest you–yet!” is contradicted by Moore’s pablum from one day earlier: http://erlc.com/article/sbc-2015-report-from-russell-moore

    “We are their sons, and we are their daughters. And we stand here again on the wrong side of history, right where we started. Your Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission has been working hard this year with a two-pronged strategy. We want to speak up with a word of witness in the public square, and we want to equip churches to have a word to witness about. In short, I want to keep you out of jail, and help make you willing to go.”

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  • Ben in oakland

    What a load of hysterical, self serving nonsense, even when they are making the little sense they do.

    You’re right, the sheriff won’t be at the door. But this? ” we are going to be considered being morally deficient, let’s admit it.” so you admit the majority of kind, decent, compassionate, and intelligent people are going to think that you been a bunch of dicks. Is it possible that it’s true?

    D so you admit the majority of kind, decent, compassionate, and intelligent people are going to think that you been a bunch of dicks. Is it possible that it’s true?

    Don’t shun your gay kids. Just tell them that God hates them and they are doomed to hell or a life of loneliness and self-hatred. Christian love at its finest.

    As for Part 3: we gay people have centuries of oppression and Hatred, jails and vilification. You have a handful of unfortunate incidents. You have a handful of unfortunate incidents. Mostly, you have a seachange of public opinion. And you don’t like…

  • Ben in oakland

    And you don’t like it one bit.

    What your silly Rant in part III really says is that you are afraid that we will treat you exactly the way you’ve been treating us for centuries. And again, you point out your handful of boycotts, a few cake bakers, and a couple of other vendors too stupid, too self righteous, and to hypocritical to say “I’m booked for your date.”

    This isnt evidence, it is anecdotes. You can look at the 11 years of marriage equality in the United States, and see only the same handful of incidents, repeated ad nauseum.

    Personally, I think the average gay atheist is a far better Christian, then the entire southern Baptist convention.

  • Greg1

    Anyone who thinks that should the Supreme Court allow gay marriage to stand for the moment, that all of this is settled; simply stated, it is not. These groups have a built in mission creep that only moves them to the next game on their agenda. The SBC is wise in its decisions to continue steadfast, as the battle has only just begun. What is interesting is that Sr. Lucia of Fatima, who received apparitions from the Virgin Mary in 1917, stated some years later when she was a cloistered sister, that the final confrontation between Satan’s reign and Christ, would be over marriage and the family. And we can see here–many years later–that she was spot on.
    http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/06/cardinal-what-sister-lucia-told-me.html

  • Judy

    Oh, my. You people are so missing the point. It is not that we hate, it is that we hate the idea of anyone (ANYONE) so totally given over to sin that they deny God. To deny God and His ways is to, literally, invite hell to you life. I have seen so many who suffer so much because they deny God as the Lord of their life. I do not hate you, I hate what will happen to you.

    How many people will allow their friend to simply walk, blindfolded off a cliff? I do not want to see anyone do that and so I will spend my life trying desperately to remove the blindfolds of sin.

    Finally, God does not hate people, just sin. As Christians we strive to do the same. As humans, we sometimes fail, but we try. We care enough to endure your verbal attacks, your sneers, your hatred and we still try to minister to you and we still invest in you in order that we can help you walk away from sin and go running to the arms of God.

  • Jack

    I find it odd and a little humorous that people look for moral and ethical guidance from a denomination that didn’t renounce slavery until 1995.

  • Boscar

    Jack — The SBC was pushing against segregation (even if many churches didn’t) in the 1960s under Foy Valentine. Facts are your friends. The 1995 repudiation of the sins of the past was a public repentance and attempt at reconciliation, not a Johnny-come-lately repudiation of slavery. That’s absurd. African-American and international churches make up most of the new churches in the SBC is doing these days.

  • Larry

    It is not refuting the points as they are showing them to be utter nonsense and fictions.

    1. The SBC has been using phony fear of being forced to officiate gay weddings to whip up hysteria. The only reason the point exists is due to SBC propaganda.

    2. The SBC is committed to supporting legalized discrimination of gays in all public settings. Even to the point of trying to subvert the duty of government employees to the public. Telling parents not to shun gay children is just CYA to avoid bad press. They still consider gays as less than people.

    3. The SBC’s version of “sacrifice” involves attempts to permit discriminatory conduct against gays without consequences under the law. The only people expected to undergo “sacrifice” are those who are maliciously denied their ability to engage in public activities by whiny bigoted Southern Baptists.

    The 3 points were bullcrap from the outset.

  • Larry

    That is some convenient revisionism. Never mind that prior to the emergence of the Christian Identity movement, the Southern Baptist Church was the official church of the Klan.

    http://etb-history-theology.blogspot.com/2012/04/southern-baptist-history-101.html
    …ridicule was heaped on Black Baptist ministers mere decades ago for refusing to attend the then segregated Southern Baptist Convention meetings and who insisted on the full equality of Blacks. Back then the pro-segregation Southern Baptist Convention leaders ridiculed the Black ministers, calling them “unchristian” in their objections, and unduly influenced “by what are essentially Russian Communistic theories.”

  • Larry

    “What is interesting is that Sr. Lucia of Fatima…”

    Another announcement from the Tourist Board of Portugal.

    Portugal, we are more than Lisbon, legalized drugs and cod!

  • Ben in Oakland

    Oh, that’s so nice of you! You’re so worried about my soul that you do everything you can to make my life is difficult, expensive, and unpleasant as possible right now!

    Your comment is full of the hubris, ignorance, and paternalism of the religious right. There are plenty of people who are Christian and also gay; they have not given up on God. There are plenty of people who are Christian who are not gay, but support gay people not despite what their bibles say, but BECAUSE of ignorance, and paternalism of the religious right. There are plenty of people who are Christian and also gay; they have not given up on God. There are plenty of people who are Christian who are not gay who support gay people, not despite what their bibles say, but BECAUSE of it.

    Why don’t you do what Jesus bade you, and look to the state of your own soul before you assume the privilege of looking after mine. How about this? Learn to mind your own temporal and spiritual business. Spiritual arrogance!

  • Ben in Oakland

    Interestingly enough, it was Al Mohler Who made comment number one. Interestingly enough it is an admission that all of this claim about pastors been arrested and charged with hate crimes for refusing to perform a gay marriage was completely fabricated.

    And yet, there are still pastors were making this claim, as completely and obviously bogus as it is. There are people posting on these very pages will make the same claims, in order to slander and revile gay people. And there are people who will make the same questions over and over and over again, in order to accrue even more power money and dominion at our expense. It all goes to show that for certain class of so-called Christian, there is no such thing as false witness.

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  • Be Brave

    Larry,

    The hostility you have for Christians living as they should is truly disgusting.

    You must hate Jesus and His Apostles with the same dedication.

    The SBC is holding the appropriate line. Except, kick kids out of the house when the eventually bring depraved behavior into it.

    But I’m sure you approve of depraved behaviors.

  • Shawnie5

    “Learn to mind your own temporal and spiritual business.”

    How is an intra-church dialogue about same-sex marriage YOUR temporal and spiritual business?

  • Be Brave

    Ben,

    “Public opinion” is not important to preaching the Gospel. In fact it is what got Jesus and the Apostles murdered.

    Nor is celebrating someone’s sins part of the Gospel.

    Your side are the bad guys.

  • Larry

    Its a lot more than that. They are looking to find new and interesting ways to subvert anti-discrimination laws in service of their faith.

    “Essentially, the Ethics and Religious Liberty Council is advising religious people to behave in some decidedly unethical ways to subvert the intention of the law. ”

    “while the focus of the piece is how to ensure homophobic Christians can discriminate against LGBT people with impunity, the Religious Employment Criteria also helpfully adds pointers on how to discriminate against other applicants as well.”

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/06/15/southern-baptist-manual-offers-suggestions-on-how-to-get-around-lgbt-anti-discrimination-laws/

  • Shawnie5

    Ben just told us up above that all of this discrimination you’re so obsessed with is a handful of isolated incidents with no substantial significance. It doesn’t make the featured 3 points of the SBC any of your immediate concern. Learn to mind your own temporal and spiritual business.

  • ben in oakland

    Oh, I don’t know, shawnie. Their relentless campaign against us? Their admission that they have been lying about pastors being sued and arrested? Their moral deficiency in attacking us with lies and hypocrisy? Perhaps even that they chose to place this intra-church discussion into the public discourse?

    Here’s the rest of Mohler’s quote, NOT included in this article: “They’ve said we’ve been ‘stand-offish’ meaning better than them, now a large part of this culture thinks we are morally deficient.”

    Here’s my advice to Mohler:

    You are worried about being perceived as “morally deficient”, eh? If you don’t want to be perceived as an a-hole, then stop acting like one. If you don’t want to be perceived as “morally deficient”, then STOP LYING FOR JESUS! And if you want your religious beliefs to be respected, you might start by having RESPECTABLE RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

  • ben in oakland

    You don’t even know your own religion.

    Jesus was supposed to be murdered. Remember? God’s plan and all?

    “blessed are you who are persecuted for my name’s sake.”

  • Ben in oakland

    Gee while keys, Mr. Mohler? Why leave it at morally deficient? Why not go whole hog, and include dishonest, hypocritical, fear mongering, dominionist, discriminatory, mean-spirited, woefully uneducated, ignorant, unprincipled, vile, slanderous, disrespectful, uncompassionate, rude, crude, and lacking both sound judgment and even a modicum of basic decency and good manners?

    And while we’re at it, let’s not forget that Mike Huckabee is still claiming that we’re going to send all Christians to concentration camps, something he has still not repudiated.

    But then, you haven’t repudiated his blatant, vicious lies either.

  • Shawnie5

    “Perhaps even that they chose to place this intra-church discussion into the public discourse?”

    We are part of the “public discourse” and are just as entitled to vote our consciences as you are. But you are not part of the church and are not entitled to a voice there–at least, not one we are bound to heed.

    “Here’s my advice to Mohler: You are worried about being perceived as “morally deficient”, eh? If you don’t want to be perceived as an a-hole, then stop acting like one.”

    LOL! You’ve missed the point of Mohler’s statement by a considerable distance. He wasn’t saying that he was worried about us being perceived in this way. He was saying that we should NOT be worried about being perceived this way. Jesus told us that there would be times when we would be insulted and slandered and oppressed in various ways, and that those doing it would think they were doing a good thing–but that this should not, of course, divert us from our path.

  • Shawnie5

    Oh please. God indeed sent Him as part of His plan–not causing Him to be hated and murdered, but knowing that that would be fallen man’s reaction to the Light of the World.

    God can easily use you guys even when you think you’re rebelling.

  • Charles Freeman

    That’s a falsehood. A lie! The evidence isn’t there in my neighborhood, and I can’t remember an SBC member spouting MLK slogans at any time or anywhere. The martyrs and activists from more than the last half century smile tenderly at the SDC members and their protestations of righteousness. We remember who was killing and beating our citizens back then. What gets the SBC any latitude for forgiveness when most of its members still harbor anti-black feelings? This might take a very long time to resolve.

  • ben in oakland

    Of course you are part of the public discourse. and of course you are entitled to your opinions. When have I ever said you are not? What you are not entitled to are your own facts. and mohler just admitted that this “fact”– quoted as recently as last week by the Huckster– is just an outright fearmongering lie.

    But I am also entitled to respond to it, call you out for your obvious mendacity, and proclaim that you are morally deficient. As for him saying that you Baptists should not be concerned about being perceived as morally deficient– well, this has been the whine of so-called Christians for the last few years: “People are calling us bigots. waaaaaah!”

    It’s clear that they aren’t and haven’t been concerned about that, no matter how true it might be. No more were they concerned about it when the objects of their disaffections were black and brown people– until the entire culture pretty much said that that was wrong.

  • ben in oakland

    It sounds like god used jesus and judas, so why not us?

    Except that I really don’t understand your point.

    And of course, once you remove the supernatural elements from the story, all you have left is another Jewish rebel who thought his apocalyptic visions would topple the roman empire. For a while, the people believed him. and then they didn’t.

    I’ll refer you to Judas the Galilean or John the Baptist for more of these guys.

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  • Shawnie5

    Ben, what gospel have you been reading? There was hardly anything Jesus cared less about than the Roman Empire–which is one of the things about Him that so frustrated the people and even His disciples.

  • Shawnie5

    Ben, who exactly did Huckabee say had been arrested for not doing gay marriages?

  • Jameson

    Not to be rude at all, but you do realize that prior to Ronie Floyd, the sbc president was Fred Luter, a black man from Louisiana

  • Larry

    “Learn to mind your own temporal and spiritual business.”

    As soon as you keep it to yourself and stop trying to attack others under the pretense of your spiritual beliefs. Stop making it everyone’s business. The church is giving instructions as how to harm people through discrimination and how to subvert civil laws. That concerns all people.

  • Shawnie5

    What have they been doing to “subvert civil laws?” As far as I have heard — and like you I have not read up on all of this because I am not a Baptist– they have mainly been urging pastors and churches to publicize clear statements and guidelines about which kinds of ceremonies and events they will host and officiate and which ones they won’t. How is that a problem for you?

  • Larry

    “What have they been doing to “subvert civil laws?”

    What, I have to read the article I linked to for you?

    Lazy.

  • shawnie5

    Larry, all the article gave was some ways that churches can make sure their activities fit into the framework of current laws. And these are churches, after all, where you guys love to tell us to “keep our beliefs.” One would think you’d be willing to leave a church alone, at least. I don’t see the “subversion of the law’s intent” unless the law “intended” to invade the church’s turf.

    And really, Larry, can’t you do better than linking to other atheist blogs? We have enough empty hot air already from
    RNS’s resident atheist blowhards without linking to more.

  • Janet K. Turner

    Jesus was not murdered, HE laid down his life voluntarily; according to God’s plan that He became the spotless lamb, the only sinless man, part-human, part-divine…He did that all for us self-righteous, prideful people.

  • Nelson Kerr

    On racial reconciliation they started so far behind that despite their very honest modern efforts they will take a long time just to break even. It takes t a while t for the evil of past deeds and attitudes to wear off. Some of us older folks still remember their stance on segregation and interracial marriage.

  • Nelson Kerr

    yet you don’t respect those who disagree with you enough to leave them alone on request. That refusal makes it more like harassment and stalking than love. Pushing to limit the rights of others is not exactly a loving act either.

    The last of the three questions can be answered easily, you can do all those things if you treat the beliefs of the people around you with as much respect as you want your beliefs to be treated.

    If you need lessons on how to do that ask any good military chaplain.

  • Larry

    Not only lazy but dishonest. Nice attempt at spin control. But that is not the purpose of the SBC’s manual was as a blueprint for discrimination in ways which violate the spirit and purpose of various laws. Urging various unethical practices to create a patina of ‘plausible deniability”.

    Not urging actual compliance with said laws, just ways to make it difficult for them to be applied in a lawsuit or administrative hearing. Akin to telling abusers not to leave bruises on a victim or break bones because they are too easy to prove.

    Because “Christian love” is all about how to act maliciously to others. 🙂

  • Shawnie5

    I see. So the spirit and purpose of these laws WAS to introduce secular laws about lgbt acceptance into churches.

    Well, thanks for your uncharacteristic candor. I guess we can add you guys’ profession of belief in separation of church and state to your previous lies about how gay marriage would NEVER affect our lives in any way. Oh never, never…

  • Larry

    “I see. So the spirit and purpose of these laws WAS to introduce secular laws about lgbt acceptance into churches”

    Um. No. But thanks for playing. You see nothing.

    The spirit and purpose of these laws is to prevent behavior in public settings which is intentionally malicious and harmful to others and the public at large. Something never considered the free exercise of religious faith.

    I really have to stop bothering to treat you like an honest, intelligent, rational person. Its a waste of time.

  • Shawnie5

    A church is not a public setting, Lare.

    I really have to stop bothering to treat you like an honest, intelligent, rational person. Its a waste of time.

  • Shawnie5

    Are you going to answer the question, Ben?

  • Ben in oakland

    @Shawnie

    Unfortunately, I cannot find the quote now. So, I hereby retract my statement, and I hereby admit I was in error. But if I find it again, I will be sure to make sure you get it.

    but there is plenty of Huckabee out there, including his current complaint that if only someone was packing a gun, maybe those 9 Christians wouldn’t have been murdered.

  • Ben in oakland

    Well, Shawnie, it didn’t take long. Not quite a claim that Christians had been arrested, merely one that they will be. Here’s Huckabee today:

    “The Supreme Court is not the Supreme Branch, and it is certainly not the Supreme Being. I refuse to sit silently as politically driven interest groups threaten the foundation of religious liberty, criminalize Christianity, and demand that Americans abandon Biblical principles of natural marriage. ”

    Of course,Christian dominionist of the Baptist variety threatens REAL religious liberty. No one wants to criminalize 70% of the population. And no one demands anything other than the freedom the huckster claims for himself.

    there’s more of it: the same level of ignorance married to fear mongering married to prejudice, all disguised as sincere religious belief in a nice, grandfatherly package.

    You can ALWAYS count on the Huckster.

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  • This issue is endless, especially after same-sex marriage legalized by Obama a month ago. The most important point is about communication. Parents should be able to agree with their children’s decision who confess as gay, lesbian or transgender. Therefore, they do not feel discriminated and dare to be honest to show who they are.