How to win gay rights with grace (COMMENTARY)

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Anthony Tielemans, 17, center left, and Paul Chavez, 27, center right, celebrate at a rally in West Hollywood, California, United States, on June 26, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Lucy Nicholson
*Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-KRATTENMAKER-COLUMN, originally transmitted on August 18, 2015.

Anthony Tielemans, 17, center left, and Paul Chavez, 27, center right, celebrate at a rally in West Hollywood, California, United States, on June 26, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Lucy Nicholson *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-KRATTENMAKER-COLUMN, originally transmitted on August 18, 2015.

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Subtle protest, not legal confrontation, will cement equal treatment.

  • Doc Anthony

    Kudos on a well-written article, a breath of fresh air, regarding the religious liberty issue.

    However, the Gay Gestapo and their judicial / media allies are NOT listening. They want capitulation, not compromise.

  • The author gives rise to the argument that the goods or services are available elsewhere which is no argument at all.

    The intent of refusing service is probably not to avoid a religious conflict. Rather refusing service is a means of conveying disapproval of gay people — all cloaked in ready-to-wear Christianity as religious freedom.

    In doing so, the public accommodation is violating a law that was passed by the legislature elected by the people and enacted by an executive also elected by the people.

    People do not get to choose which laws they will or will not obey. The only way to stop this lawlessness is through the courts AND through commerce. Nobody should ever have to hear “we don’t serve your kind here.”

    They are free to post a sign that they disapprove of same-sex marriage. Problem solved.

  • Apparently you are incapable of making a point without Third Reich imagery which is offensive. Congratulations on a well-deserved Godwin™.

  • Ben in oakland

    What a load of nonsense, disguised as sincerity.

    No one is interested in this alleged “mop up” operation. the very concept concedes the mythical point invented by some Christians that they are being persecuted because they can no longer control our lives– though they WILL keep trying.

    Take our business elsewhere? ABSOLUTELY. We can do that right after the humiliation and insult of being told “WE DON’T SERVE YOUR KIND HERE.” not to mention, the further insult of Christian exceptionalism: “We don’t have to render unto Caesar because we are special.”

    The malicious treatment of gay people by SOME religionists? SOME? SOME? What planet are you living on? Most of the campaigns against our full participation in society were promulgated by so-called Christians claiming “sincere religious belief” as they called us threats to EVERYTHING good and holy.

    All you are doing is excusing bad, discriminatory, and bigoted behavior by claiming “sincere religious belief.”

    Total…

  • Larry

    “With grace” means not to offend the bigots who still want to attack the rights of gays but have lost the legal power to do so. FTS!

    “Patience” with bigots only means enduring humiliation and attack for longer than one has to. Why should anyone bother? Its not like the people who wrap their prejudices in religion ever ever provide accommodation or reasonable responses to others. Why should they be treated better than they treat others?

    Nobody ever has to be forced to navigate a sea of personal prejudices of various vendors (like how black consumers had to up until 1964).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book

    The author is simply trying to polish the old smelly turd of “separate but equal” marketplaces.

    The point of anti-discrimination laws is that nobody should have to be forced to look elsewhere because a vendor is prejudiced against a particular type of customer. That doing so harms the entire public at large.

  • You are correct of course. I wrote today about the clerks in Kentucky and Texas. One is ongoing the other settled at taxpayer expense.

    Take the nitwit in KY. The notion that a twice-divorced woman who is an elected public servant (who then hired her own son) can choose which citizens she will service is offensive to the point where you wonder about the faculties of her constituents.

    Then there is the judge-without-balls who refused to stay his order (that she must issue the licenses) but then temporarily stayed his own refusal — presumably to see if the Sixth Circuit will issue a stay while they consider the matter. Meanwhile, the judge never addressed the fact that the clerk defied his order on the advice of counsel. She should be held in contempt and Liberty Counsel should be sanctioned for misconduct.

    Thank you judge Bunning for making it official that we are second-class citizens.

  • Dominic

    Live and let live is the only tolerable answer to this new law concerning gay marriage. All true Christian churches will never cede to this marriage redefinition…and remain Christian…and Gays will never understand the immovable view of the church.
    Arguments and debates do not help, they only seem to enrage both sides even more. Laws cannot control consciences of individuals, so ignoring the frustrations of both sides is preferable.

  • Doc Anthony

    I’m sorry, but the single most appropriate term to describe what gay activists and their judicial / media allies have done to Christian small businesses, (and done to the families who depend on said businesses for their livelihood), can only be — “Gestapo”.

    Like the article suggested, the “victorious forces” are seeking out and eliminating the holdouts. They are clearly doing Economic Kristallnachts on Christian bakers, florists, bed-and-breakfast owners, etc, in multiple states. There’s no other way to describe it.

    Even the atheist comedian Bill Maher got serious and warned of a “Gay Mafia” after they ousted the CEO of Mozilla, Brendan Eich.

    So it’s time to stop pretending that all is well. It’s time to honestly admit that a Gay Gestapo, full of anti-Christian hatred, really does exist.

  • The Great God Pan

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll

    Concern Troll
    In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with “concerns”. The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you’re an ally.

  • Larry

    Small businesses who decided that anti-discrimination laws and common decency and civil behavior were too much for them.

    So they voluntarily sacrificed their businesses for the joys of acting maliciously towards customers. Much like what happens when a racist tells you that he won’t sell to people like yourself. If people don’t want to follow clearly rational and sensible the laws, they suffer the consequences of their actions.

    But Christianity isn’t about taking responsibility for one’s actions (unless they are someone other than the Christian). They are about making excuses and exceptions. To harm others and expect no response in return.

  • Larry

    Nobody has to give a crap what churches will do. 1st Amendment protects their right to be discriminatory bigots. Such protection never extends to businesses open to the general public.

    There is no debate here. Debate implies rational arguments of equal merit here. There is no rational or factually supportable argument for the discriminatory behavior described here. It is simply presenting the facts and hearing terrible excuses in response from Christian bigots who hold the public and laws in contempt.

    If you are too deranged by your religious inspired bigotry to avoid acting like a malicious discriminatory jerk, then your only acceptable option is not to do business in open commerce. Open up a private members only club to sell your wares and services and advertise by word of mouth/private channels.

    Nobody has to

  • Richard Rush

    “All true Christian churches will never cede . . .”

    There are somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000 Christian denominations/sects. Who decides which ones are true? Are you the decider, Dominic?

  • Roy

    Yeah, after being told to take our business and lives elsewhere, we should do the gracious thing and just take our business and lives elsewhere. Sure. Do we need to ride in the back of the bus too? Separate water fountains? Ghettos?
    Just how gracious should we be?

  • Normandywells

    Youre pretty disgusting. Gaystapo? Do you realize how idiotic you sound? The real Gestapo murdered 10,000 gays in WW2. Shame on you. YOU are why we will go out and punish all religious bigots. We are tired of this.

  • Normandywells

    actually, gays don’t care what a bigoted church thinks! Many churches welcome gays

  • Jay

    The article is nonsense. There is nothing graceful about accepting discriminatory practices, whether directed at people on the basis of race, sex, nationality, or sexual orientation. While I would never want to knowingly patronize bigots, I would certainly consider suing a business that refused to serve me on the basis of sexual orientation; and I definitely would sue a clerk of court that refused to issue me a marriage license that I was qualified for just because she is stupid enough to think that issuing a license means that she “approves” of my marriage.

  • Jose

    so many Christians Churches have already welcomed marriage equality. The train already left the station! Some intolerant, hateful non-Christian churches still discriminate.

  • ben in oakland

    No, we most emphatically are NOT going out to punish any religious bigots, and for three reasons.

    It’s not our job.

    I can’t think of anyone, except those rightfully truly angry with what passes for Christianity, who have the slightest desire to.

    It feeds the paranoid persecution delusions of people like doc, Greg, and Dominic.

    Personally, I would rather not punish them, but just see them get marginalized by all sane, decent, and kind people, as their impotent bigot tears of bigot rage drown them in their own toxicity.

  • ben in oakland

    three times divorced, but who is counting? God forgives her her adultery and making mock of holy matrimony.

  • ben in oakland

    I AM THE DECIDER.

    The only true Christians are Unitarians, though we might let in UCC and ECLA.

    All the rest are fakes.

  • Patrick

    While I appreciate this article’s call for peace, it misses the bigger problem with allowing businesses to discriminate. The “find another business” approach only works if that business is the only one around that won’t serve gays. Suppose the next one turns you away, and the one after that, and so on. In some areas of the country, that’s not impossible.

    Businesses should not be allowed to refuse service outright, no matter what their religious view. I’d rather they say something like “the law requires that we serve you if asked, but we prefer you go to XYZ instead”. Not that I’d be particularly happy hearing that, but I’d prefer it to being kicked out or patronizing a homophobe.

  • bqrq

    “…..Everyday decisions and conduct are another matter — an area where a little finesse might sometimes be advisable……”

    One helpful suggestion is for gays to be more diligent about practicing safe sex. Many gay men are careless and like to go “bare back” even though they know that this can inflict mortal injury on their “partner.” They should remember that their “partner” is someone elses’ son and parents hate to see their children get sick and die. It would be more thoughtful and considerate of parents (and also wives and children), if gay men would wear at least two lubricated latex condoms to reduce the risk of abrasion and prophylactic failure, when having sex with other people’s sons.

  • Ben in oakland

    There you go again, fantasizing about gay sex and other people sons. Sounds like you’ve managed to work in some kind of fantasy about unsafe sex, rape, nonconsensual sex, and only you know what else.

  • Doc Anthony

    “We will go out and punish all religious bigots” ??

    Umm, do you realize how YOU sound? Christian business and families are not on a big crusade to punish you, but you are on a big crusade to punish them for their beliefs. The extremist hatred is clearly coming from the gay side, NOT the Christian side.

    If gay activists don’t want the label “Gay Gestapo”, they honestly need to cut out all their Economic Kristallnacht reprisals against Christian small-business men and women.

    But there is no sign that the Gay Gestapo is willing to let up at all. That’s why you’re seeing articles like Tom Krattenmaker’s. Constitutional religious liberties mean nothing to them. Concepts like “grace” mean nothing to them.

    Some people are sore losers, but the Gay Gestapo are sore winners. They want vengeance, not just victory. They want capitulation, not compromise. And they do hate both Christians and Christianity. THAT, is the reason for their current crusade.

  • Dominic

    Well said, Doc.

  • Dominic

    Yes, I am. It is the Catholic Church. Please take notes.

  • Dominic

    No Christian Church can validly accept gay marriage, since the very idea runs counter to all that Christianity stands for. By accepting gay marriage they forfeit their adherence to Christ’s Teachings and Wisdom……whether they believe that or not. Sorry….

  • Davey in PA

    Gaystapo.

    The drive to persecute Christians has been the driving force for the spread of hom-sexual sex. This isn’t about holiness, chastity (how laughable) and any kind of real marriage, this is about the spread of g_y sex to as many partners as can be had in one’s young life. Just like the 3rd-reich, this is about propaganda changing an entire culture to something unrecognizable to the one it just eliminated. This is about the rise of Sapphic “love’ and ped_rasty. And little else.

    D_mons are rejoicing.

  • Dominic

    As gracious as you pretend to be. Poking the sleeping religious dragon will eventually hurt your cause.

  • Davey in PA

    Sane and decent people do not fly the rainbow flag nor do they encourage youth to engage in g_y sex.

    But incredibly ev_l people do. The kind that persecute Christians.

  • Davey in PA

    Ben,

    It wasn’t the control of your hom_sexual behavior that we Christians fought against and still do and always will. It is the celebration of the depravity of g_y behavior that we will never, ever, stop preaching the truth about. There is no compatibility between lgbt desires and Christian life. The two exist in different realms. And you can easily see that dem_ns do not like Christians. But crushing Christians is something they will celebrate too. Remember Nero? A VERY famous lgbt activist.

  • Davey in PA

    Awesome Larry. There is no rational merit to mixing the depravity of g_y behavior and the loveliness of Christian life. The bigots that desire and demand that Christians celebrate and condone hom_sexuality, do so by the terror of imposing sickening laws to destroy Christian homes and businesses. Even through your sickened mind you can produce some reality.

  • Dominic

    What the churches do is of great importance to society, so forget your constitutional tirades. Politicians, businesses, advertisers, etc. could not prosper without courting the religious majority. Gays should enjoy their current fad status now, but their belligerence will become tiresome at some point and someone will stand up and say, “Oh, please SHUT UP” !

  • Davey in PA

    Richard,

    “Test all things.” The Churches calling Jesus and the Apostle’s liars and agree to warp Christianity into a sick and deviant world of sexual depravity by forcing a change in what Christian marriage is, are the deceivers.

    Read the New Testament. Marriage is immutably man and woman. Those demanding to change that are evil.

    Simple.

  • Davey in PA

    Christians that hold to marriage as Jesus taught it are the good guys. The liberals, progressives and other false teachers are the bad guys.

    Per Jesus. And other immutable voices in the New Testament.

    Bring on the persecution. Nothing can hold back the dem_ns of hell now. Rainbow flag in one clawed paw and list of Christian businesses and honest Churches in the other.

  • you my bigoted friend, are an a$$.

  • bqrq

    Davey said;
    “…….The liberals, progressives and other false teachers are the bad guys….”

    Good point. Generally, liberals and gays hate Christian morality and practice a morbid lifestyle full of lies, deceit, envy, deviancy, greed, contempt and outright hatred of anyone who is good, decent and righteous.

  • I hate to break it to you but we don’t care. We neither seek nor require your approval. We will compel individuals to comply with non-discrimination laws. If you don’t like those laws you can vote your wishes in November.

    As for marriage equality — that’s a settled issue. It is the law of the land and that’s not going to change. The five justices of the Supreme Court did not require your opinion either.

  • What makes you think that we care? Liturgical Protestants are accepting; Baptists are not. The Catholic Church is the world’s largest closet. We don’t care. We neither seek nor require Christian approval.

    In his dissent in Windsor Justice Alito expressed his concern that opponents of same-sex marriage would be considered “bigots or superstitious fools.” Take your pick.

    Nevertheless, we will compel compliance with non-discrimination laws. Flout them at your peril.

  • … gays hate Christian morality and practice a morbid lifestyle full of lies, deceit, envy, deviancy, greed, contempt and outright hatred of anyone who is good, decent and righteous.

    Nah. We take issue with people who are judgmental.

    I am a retired CEO. My late partner of over 30 years was a VP of a prominent media company. We worked hard. We raised two very decent kids. We had great careers. We had a lot of fun and we gave back. It wasn’t all peaches and cream but on the whole it was pretty good.

    I cannot imagine what it is like to be a conservative Christian. Always feeling angry and persecuted is a heavy burden to bear.

  • bqrq

    Dear David,
    As a parent of two very decent kids, would you agree that we should encourage gay men to be more diligent about practicing safe sex, especially when they are having sex with other peoples children?

  • Larry

    I don’t have to give a flying crap what you think of gays. Nor what you think God says. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion means we are never compelled to care what the next person thinks or believes.

    But you do have to follow the laws. If you find anti-discrimination laws too tough for your religious belief, don’t do business to the general public. You may think God excuses malicious behavior in your business, but the law doesn’t have to. You take your lumps and be a man about it.

  • Larry

    Of course you don’t like constitutional tirades. You don’t understand or appreciate the freedoms it entails.

    Your little “might makes right” comment fails to appreciate that our civil liberties are all about voiding the will of the majority where it attacks the fundamental rights of a political minority. Discrimination doesn’t end because of popular vote. It is fought in the courts first.

  • How? Because of the lying martyrbaiters whining about being denied the ability to persecute others? Because of ridiculous arguments about nazi cakes? Because the anti-gay crowd has toned down its slurs and defamatory tone?

    Not in the least. In fact the malicious efforts of the anti-gay crowd has accelerated their irrelevance. The more they whine the more they seem to lose.

    The whole “religious freedom” argument is so transparently a sham that the efforts to enshrine legalized discrimination with the Mini-RFRA’s were met with bitter resistance from all sides.

    It doesn’t help when you are taking cues from history’s losers and villains of recent memories, the segregationists. You guys are even trying to recycle “separate but equal”.

  • bqrq, will you please refrain from posting and masturbating at the same time?

    Nobody should have to read your sick fantasy garbage on a religious affairs site.

  • As a parent with 2 decent kids, the safest thing to do is to keep them as far away from bqrq as possible.

    In his own words of personal experience as a child molester he said, “predators love marshmallow boys.”

  • Ben in oakland

    Demons aren’t so freighted of the world that they write d_mons.

    You must be BQRQ’s son by Limda Harvey.

  • Ben in oakland

    Don’t worry, little boy. It will take a while for us to get to you.

    And your little dog, too.

  • Ben in oakland

    Oh, now I see it. You are the love child of Be Brave and Ann Coulter.

  • Ben in oakland

    Tee hee. you said martyrbaiters.

    But please spell it correctly. that’s MARTYRBATERS.

  • bqrq

    David Cary Hart loves his children so he probably does not want them to be having high risk sex with random gay men. David is gay himself so he knows better than anyone what these perverts want to do to other peoples children. Most homosexuals and their fans do not want their own children to practice gay sex but they enthusiastically promote this vile practice for other people’s children.

  • dmj76

    Sometimes I think many people on this site are trolls who want to make their enemies look dumb.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Still going on about having sex with children. At leastit is “other people’s children.”

  • Til Tuesday

    Lets see…for centuries Christians had no mercy on gay people. They supported the arrest, torture, and execution of gay people. They supported denying gay people jobs, healthcare, and a host of legal rights. They’ve treated gay people as legal and social outcasts for centuries. In the last few years they’ve gone to nations in Africa and the (former) eastern European block to advocate for draconian laws against gay people. They can’t even bring themselves to to condemn Muslims hurling gay people off the tops of buildings to their deaths as recently as last week.

    But now they’re asking for mercy from gay people so they can continue discriminating against them? Seriously? They should have remembered the verse from their holy book that says “Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy”. I suggest they pray to their God for mercy because I have a feeling payback is gonna be hell.

  • Ted

    Bible-cultist bigots have bashed gays for literally hundreds of years. But now that the law is beginning to limit their ability to act out their hatreds, it is suddenly time for everyone to be “reasonable”.

    Bible-cultists are not only bigots, but hypocrites as well.

  • Shawnie5

    God’s word is the decider. “Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to his word, they have no light of dawn.” Isaiah 8:20

  • bqrq

    Tuesday said;
    “…..now they’re asking for mercy from gay people so they can continue discriminating against them?…..”

    Wrong! We are not asking for mercy, we are respectfully asking gay people to avoid contact with our children and not molest them. That’s all we are asking.

  • Larry

    And fundies like yourself are the sole source for its interpretations. Everyone else is just doing it wrong. Or so they would like to believe. Too bad nobody else got the memo from God himself. 🙂

  • Larry

    So at this point it’s just a matter if time before someone finds bqrq’s stash of child pornograpjy on his hard drive and reports him to authorities.

  • Shawnie5

    Offer something to be tested against His word, then. Still waiting.

  • Ben in oakland

    Does this count?

    All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.

  • Larry

    To be tested in accordance with whom? Your opinion? Why bother?

    I know, because your ego needs to be fed. You need to keep up the pretense of being the sole voice of God.

    Religious belief is not about rational arguments and proof. Its about faith. Faith in a given interpretation of scripture, faith in the existence of God. Faith meaning belief in the absence of proof. Not a shred of evidence nor compelling arguments out there which demand to be taken seriously.

    As far as anyone can see, God hasn’t been coming down from the heavens to clarify the words of the Bible or give an official approval of given interpretations of “his word”.

    All you have is your own opinions and willingness to accept or reject a given version.

    Lets make a deal. When all the various churches you deem, “not really Christian” decide to take your words to heart and fold up their operations, then you can be taken seriously as the solitary voice of “the Christian message”.

  • Shawnie5

    @ Ben: OK. Show me where God promulgated dietary laws for Gentiles, and I will show you where He judged and rejected Gentile nations for the sexual practices found in the Torah, long before there ever was a Torah. Deal?

  • Shawnie5

    @Larry: More excuses and attempts at clairvoyance? Don’t you ever get embarrassed?

    “As far as anyone can see, God hasn’t been coming down from the heavens to clarify the words of the Bible or give an official approval of given interpretations of “his word”.” Ah, says you. But it is part and parcel of Christian faith that God DID come down from the heavens and clarify and interpret His word for us in the person of the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ. And He disclaimed none of that word, but upbraided many for not knowing it.

    “When all the various churches you deem, “not really Christian” decide to take your words to heart and fold up their operations, then you can be taken seriously as the solitary voice of “the Christian message”.” Tell me again, why exactly should I care whether you “take us seriously” or not? What importance do you think your utterly uninformed opinion is supposed to have for us???

  • TomInElPaso

    gosh, exactly how you folks objected against serving negroes in the 1960s. No surprise there.

  • TomInElPaso

    Of the more than 370,000 same sex marriages that have taken place in the past 11 years .0005% or some 25 have had problems with supposed Christians denying provision of wedding services.

    I’ll repeat that, less than 25 that’s .0005% had problems. Hardly a pandemic and certainly not worthy of your hate filled commentary about any Gay Gestapo.

    You sir should be ashamed of yourself and your desire to put in place Christian Sharia laws in this wonderful nation. You need to stop calling yourself an American, promote your hate elsewhere!

  • TomInElPaso

    Dominic, That person standing will most probably have just stood up from the church pew right next to you. Those who run their mouths from hatred are going to be the losers in this issue, your fellow parishioners will be telling you to shut up and sit down.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Well, Shawnie, i’m not sure what that has to do with the question that I asked. But if God did this long before there ever was a Torah, then how do we know that he did it? Those people certainly didn’t believe in this particular version of God, he wasn’t there God, and they didn’t have to follow his commandments, even if they had ever heard of them.

    That is at least when I think you are claiming, but I’m really not very sure. You Are lacking your usual clarityAre lacking your usual clarity.

  • Larry

    ” But it is part and parcel of Christian faith that God DID come down from the heavens and clarify and interpret His word for us in the person of the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ. And He disclaimed none of that word, but upbraided many for not knowing it.”

    Says you. The several hundred different denominations attest to a singular persuasive interpretation of it which binds all Christians. Even those who accept Jesus Christ as their savior can’t seem to agree on a single version of “his word”. 🙂

    ” Tell me again, why exactly should I care whether you “take us seriously” or not? ”

    Because you are trying to convince me and everyone else your views reflect “True Christianity” and those others sects which disagree with you are false ones for some reason. You are trying to claim that your interpretations of scripture are “correct”.

  • Shawnie5

    Ben, the Torah itself was never given to Gentiles. But there was a much more ancient and pared-down standard of behavior always expected of “righteous Gentiles.” It was called the Noahide Laws. The Jewish and Torah-observant Jerusalem Church reached back to this ancient standard when trying to decide what to do with new Gentile converts to Christianity. In a nutshell it encompassed everything commanded by Christ’s law of love, plus the avoidance of blood and known pagan sacrificial meat, and all the forms of sexual immorality which are listed in Leviticus 20 and which the same chapter states the Canaanites practiced and were judged for. The dietary and ceremonial laws were not imposed upon Gentiles because they never had been, either by Torah or by custom.

    In more biblically literate times this used to be understood as a matter of course. But I have explained this to scoffers repeatedly only to have it go in one ear and out the other.

  • Shawnie5

    “You are trying to claim that your interpretations of scripture are “correct”.”

    LOL! Why not? Ever hear of a default judgment? If you offer a case that no one appears to refute, then the case offered is presumed valid.

    I do believe that is what we have here…although that is too easy. I really wish someone WOULD show up to offer a case since you are certainly not up to the challenge.

  • The difference with a default judgment is you are serving a party who is compelled to respond. Nobody has to respond to your assertions of divine singular interpretive skills. Proof of this is how many people go about their lives as Christians who don’t even remotely agree with your take on things.

    Plus in a court case, both sides are hemmed in by rules and procedures as well as standards of evidence.

    Religious argument is more of a throw something at a wall and see if it sticks and claim it supports my pre-conceived views. Its why nobody ever gets rejected from “Creationist Journals” if their papers use the accepted buzzwords. No matter how stupid the assertions.

    There is no rational discussion in religion because it is not based on rational proof. It is based on faith. Lack of proof.

  • In a default judgment is you are serving a party who is compelled to respond. Nobody has to respond to your assertions of divine singular interpretive skills. Proof of this is how many people go about their lives as Christians who don’t even remotely agree with your take on things.

    Plus in a court case, both sides are hemmed in by rules and procedures as well as standards of evidence.

    Religious argument is more of a throw something at a wall and see if it sticks and claim it supports my pre-conceived views. Its why nobody ever gets rejected from “Creationist Journals” if their papers use the accepted buzzwords. No matter how silly the assertions.

    There is no rational discussion in religion because it is not based on rational proof. It is based on faith. Lack of proof.

  • Shawnie5

    “Nobody has to respond to your assertions of divine singular interpretive skills.” Lucky for them, since evidently nobody can.

    “Proof of this is how many people go about their lives as Christians who don’t even remotely agree with your take on things.” And don’t even remotely know why they don’t agree, as they sheer off hastily when queried about it–but at least they have the good sense not to take on an impossible task.

    Poor Larry, driven to blindly stumble in to defend the gay-affirming case all by his lonesome with no tools whatsoever…painful to watch, indeed.

  • Shawnie5

    BTW, Lare, nobody is “compelled” to respond to a lawsuit. If they don’t, they simply lose. Just like you.

  • Dominic

    You’re just fantasizing now, Tomin, just like gays fantasize that they are truly married. Smoke and mirrors…..smoke and mirrors.

  • bqrq

    Wrong! We are demanding that gay people avoid contact with our children and not molest them. That’s all we are asking.

  • George Nion Shuler

    Hey, is this a paragraph cut and pasted from a masonic cipher book with those dashes there? -George Nixon Shuler, 32°, Junction City KS

  • George Nion Shuler

    There is no logical connection shown between your four sentences there. You have merely posted asssertions, not evidence, for your position. Your passion is not indicative of reason. -George Nixon Shuler, Junction City KS

  • George Nion Shuler

    “No True Scotsman” argument spotted. Just sayin’ -George Nixon Shuler, Junction City KS

  • George Nion Shuler

    While I would seem to be tolerant of your supposed militancy, I have no desire to drive those who express hateful ideologies out of business by government fiat. Instead, the resulting publicity usually accomplishes that a lot more effectively. My father briefly operated a restaurant when we were enthusiastic supporters of Barry Goldwater for President in 1964. However he refused to put a Goldwater sign in his window, saying “Opinions are bad for business.” Of course this was in Texas where the opponent of BMG, Lyndon Johnson, was immensely popular. Were it in Arizona, perhaps he would have. I can’t say. The bakers, florists, wedding chapels and the like facing sanctions for violating civil rights laws are not acting with their actions bveing informed by their religion. They may assert this, but if so it is obvious they are lying. A business enterprise is not an act of religion. They are free to do as they wish but they are not free from consequences.

  • Ben in oakland

    No one wants to drive them out of business by government fiat. That is a myth of the Christian right. but if they flout the law, they should not be surprised if consequences from the law ensue.

    there are many ways that the martyrbaters can avoid working with the people they despise– every one of them perfectly legal, and some of them even sound business practice. What they want is to be Moral Scolds, Holier than Thou, Moralizing busybodies, to let the people they despise know exactly what is wrong with them.

    I don’t want the government to act except in the most egregious examples, whatever that might mean. I am perfectly happy to let the market take care of the moralizing idiots who are just too dumb and self-righteous to say, “Sorry, I’m booked. Why don’t you call so-and-so.”

  • George Nion Shuler

    That was a good one. In Paul Fussell’s “Class” he described attitudes of proliterians in the Heartland by quoting a 16-year-old boy in Indiana, who said, “Sure, we smoke dope and have sex, but that doesn’t mean we’ll let people come and push God around.” Of course, that was published in 1983. a lot has happened in the 32 years since then. My impression is religious ferver is dying out among prole Heartlanders faster than on the coasts. Just sayin’. -George Nixon Shuler, Junction City KS

  • George Nion Shuler

    As in other times of social upheval, those who find themselves at the bottom after having been at the top before are disoriented. These days, most people would prefer to have a gay or lesbian family living next door as opposed to a fundamentalist family whereas in the 1920s or so the opposite was certainly so. -George Nixon Shuler, Junction City KS

  • George Nion Shuler

    By your logic then, no heterosexual fundamentalist should be allowed near children because of what Josh Duggar did to those girls. -George Nixon Shuler, Junction City KS

  • Jay

    Not at all interested in placating bigots, but I certainly do not want to patronize any business that I know is owned by bigots, so I would be happy if businesses posted signs expressing their opposition to same-sex marriage or to gay people generally. As I recall, we paid about $600 for the cake at our wedding, over $600 for flowers, about $3000 for the photographer/videographer, over $5000 for the reception. I would hate to know that any of that money went to people who disapproved of our wedding. (Since we were married in Provincetown, I doubt that any of it did.)

  • Jerry Reiter

    When you use terms like Gay Gestapo, you are speaking about a minority group in a hostile and extremely vicious and false way. While it may seem to you that things have gone too far, let’s get the facts in the picture. Fact one: there is no such job as “Christian baker”.
    When Christ fed thousands, he fed them all, no exceptions. Christ never said to feed only those who are sinless in your eyes. Christ’s name should not be hijacked for denying service. Neither did Christ say to violate civil laws. He said the opposite, “Render unto Caeser (civil government) what is Caesar’s….”
    There have only been 3 cases of bakers being brought to court for their refusal to make a cake that could be used to feed the mainly heterosexual crowd attending most same-sex weddings. Baking cake is not participating in weddings.
    When someone is denied service, they have the right to file a form with the civil rights office. That is all the aggrieved couples did. Courts ruled. Not very…