Evangelical leader Russell Moore denounces ex-gay therapy

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (RNS) Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore denounced reparative therapy at a conference here, saying the controversial treatment that attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation has been “severely counterproductive.”

Moore, who serves as president of the Southern Baptists’ Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, spoke to a group of journalists Tuesday (Oct. 28) covering the group’s national conference.

“The utopian idea if you come to Christ and if you go through our program, you’re going to be immediately set free from attraction or anything you’re struggling with, I don’t think that’s a Christian idea,” Moore told journalists. “Faithfulness to Christ means obedience to Christ. It does not necessarily mean that someone’s attractions are going to change.”

Moore said evangelicals had an “inadequate view” of what same-sex attraction looks like.

Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore denounced reparative therapy at a conference here, saying the controversial treatment that attempts to change a person's sexual orientation has been "severely counterproductive." Photo courtesy of Rocket Republic

Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore denounced reparative therapy at a conference here, saying the controversial treatment that attempts to change a person’s sexual orientation has been “severely counterproductive.” Photo courtesy of Rocket Republic

“The Bible doesn’t promise us freedom from temptation,” Moore said. “The Bible promises us the power of the spirit to walk through temptation.”

Moore gave similar remarks to an audience of 1,300 people at the conference. The same morning, the conference featured three speakers who once considered themselves gay or lesbian.

Moore joins a chorus of psychologists and religious leaders who have departed from the once-popular therapy.

In 2009, the American Psychological Association adopted a resolution urging mental health professionals to avoid reparative therapy. Since then, California and New Jersey have passed laws banning conversion therapy for minors, and several other states have considered similar measures.

Earlier this year, the 50,000-member American Association of Christian Counselors amended its code of ethics eliminating reparative therapy and encouraging celibacy instead.

John Paulk, who was once a poster boy for the ex-gay movement, apologized in 2013 for the reparative therapy he used to promote. Earlier this year, Yvette Schneider, who had formerly worked for groups such as the Family Research Council, Concerned Women for America and Exodus International, published a “coming out” interview with GLAAD calling for bans on reparative therapy. In addition, nine former ex-gay leaders have denounced conversion therapy.

“There were utopian ideas about reparative therapy that frankly weren’t unique to evangelicalism,” Moore said. “That was something that came along in the 1970s and 1980s about the power of psychotherapy to do all sorts of things that we have a more nuanced views about now.”

Some pastors, like John Piper, a respected Minneapolis preacher and author, still encourage the possibility of change for those who have same-sex attractions.

Exodus International, one of the most prominent ex-gay ministries shut down in 2013. While other ex-gay groups such as Restored Hope Network still exist, many religious leaders are now encouraging people with same-sex attraction to consider celibacy.

“The idea that one is simply the sum of one’s sexual identity is something that is psychologically harmful ultimately,” Moore said. “And I think also we have a situation where gay and lesbian people have been treated really, really badly.”

Moore said the ERLC is working with parents of those who are gay and lesbian.

“The response is not shunning, putting them out on the street,” he said. “The answer is loving your child.”

For years, gay evangelicals had three options: leave the faith, ignore their sexuality or try to change. But as groups such as Exodus became unpopular, a growing number of celibate gay Christians have sought to be true to both their sexuality and their faith.

A newer question among some Christians is whether those with same-sex attraction should self-identify as gay.

In his address Monday, traditional marriage advocate Sherif Girgis plugged the website Spiritual Friendship, intended for Catholics and Protestants who identify as gay and celibate. Some Christians are debating whether identifying as gay or having a same-sex orientation is itself unbiblical.

“It’s not the way I would articulate it because I think it puts on an appendage to a Christian identity,” Moore said. “So I don’t see them as enemies who are trying to be destructive; I just don’t think it’s the best way to approach it.”

Rosaria Butterfield, a former lesbian who rejects the “ex-gay” label and the movement behind it, said Christians should not use “gay” as a descriptive adjective. Moore interviewed Butterfield, whose address at Wheaton College generated protests earlier this year, during Tuesday’s conference.

“There is no shame in repentance because it simply proves that God was right all along,” Butterfield told Moore.

Another conference speaker and Moody Bible Institute professor Christopher Yuan teaches a more traditional message of celibacy for those who, like him, are attracted to the same sex. He shuns labels, but he believes more younger Christians are self-identifying as gay and celibate.

“I’m kind of label-less,” Yuan said before his address. “I think I’m a dying breed, though.”


About the author

Sarah Pulliam Bailey

Sarah Pulliam Bailey is a national correspondent for RNS, covering how faith intersects with politics, culture and other news. She previously served as online editor for Christianity Today where she remains an editor-at-large.


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  • Definitely a step in the right direction from Dr. Moore. Young gay people struggle the worst from the stigmatization of their orientation, as they often are even shunned by those upon which they still rely for the very basic needs of their mere existence…their families.

    The dangerous rhetoric that has long been prevalent among certain factions of the Christian community is hopefully waning. When groups try to organize boycotts of teen-targeted programming because a show includes ads for a SUICIDE PREVENTION HOTLINE for LGBT youth (as some AFA-affiliated groups did over a “Teen Nick” show promoting The Trevor Project a couple of years ago) it’s time to take a step back and reevaluate. When you push ideas that actually encourage the propagation of teen suicide and homelessness, it’s time to find a mirror.

  • It has been estimated that 40% of the children who are homeless got kicked out when they came out. It seems time to accept the notion that sexual orientation is neither choice nor mutable.

    Perhaps we can keep more families intact. Reparative “therapy” leaves parents to wonder either what they did wrong or, in the alternative, if their child is the spawn of Satan.

    It seems, by the way, that every supposed ex-gay person that we meet has an economic interest in claiming to be ex-gay.

  • NO!!! What is going on with some of the heads of these “denominations”? This is a sad statement. I pray he reconsiders and retracts this statement. He’s basically conceding the argument! Reparative therapy works. Why would you say someone cannot overcome these attractions? God’s power is not limited!

  • Moore and others are taking the wrong approach to this issue by saying things like, ” “Faithfulness to Christ means obedience to Christ. It does not necessarily mean that someone’s attractions are going to change.” The reparative therapy movement was wrong because of the heavy reliance on psychotherapy and because the goal was to convert people from gay to straight. But to say that faith in Christ does not result in a change to one’s affections/attractions is not Biblical, or reformed.

    Indeed the Gospel itself teaches us that to be born again by the Spirit is to have our affections reoriented toward Christ alone as He is offered to us in the scriptures — and away from the things of this world. That is the message that is missing from nearly all of these gender debates. And no one is getting it. I should have thought that Moore (author of “Tempted and Tried”) would have been ‘moore to the point’ than this.

  • Here you go Emily

    “Family rejection is devastating the lives of young people across the country, and very few organizations outside the Family Acceptance Project are addressing this issue. It’s all too easy to see LGBT homeless youth as an invisible population, but there is a very visible onslaught of anti-gay and anti-trans propaganda specifically targeting parents to raise their fears of the LGBT community. Rather than protecting children, the anti-gay efforts led by conservative evangelical Christians may very well be causing the exact kinds of child abuse that they blame LGBT people for.”

  • Let’s take a practical look for a moment at this problem of gays and the Church: Back in biblical days, people lived in caves and ate rats for dinner. They didn’t know the earth was round. How much do we think they knew about human sexuality?

    The scriptures were written by heterosexual men – not Jesus, not women, not gay men – but mere mortal heterosexual males who probably had the same fears as anyone else in this modern age who doesn’t like people who are different than they are. Nature puts gay people on this planet. There will always be gay babies – maybe to cut down on over-population, maybe to cut down on the aggression of heterosexual males that lead us into wars every twenty years, etc. Edit out or ignore the anti-gay prejudice in the bible and Christianity’s problem with the issue will disappear.

    Which brings me to my own personal theory: people who don’t ignore the anti-gay prejudice in the bible, don’t like gay people. I’m a Christian and I have never paid attention to it.

    When asked about gays, gay marriage and the Baptist Church, Rev. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary recently said that “we would indeed have to overturn two thousand years of the church’s teaching on sex and marriage and apologize for the horrible embarrassment of being wrong for so long.”

    The smart move would be to admit to that mistake. Modern science is coming closer and closer to proving that homosexuality has a genetic component. Wouldn’t it be wiser for the Church to admit it’s mistake now, with dignity, rather than later…when it is forced to?

  • Try GLSEN at They can give you the statistics on gay youth and what families, schools and churches have done to many of them.

  • Reparative therapy has been shown over and over and over to be incredibly destructive. It does NOT work. What you have as a result of reparative therapy is a lot of individuals with shattered self-esteem. There may be an occasional person who has convinced him or herself that they’ve changed. Meanwhile, the exegesis on homosexuality in the Bible used by many fundagelical groups is horrific and deeply questionable. Even this gentleman is maintaining a position where a homosexual person must “white knuckle” it for the rest of their lives and live without a spouse. How tragic! Unfortunately, the position remains: in most churches, gays are forced to choose between their religion and a fulfilling life.

  • Justin, I’m curious to know why you think reparative therapy ‘works’. Every person I’ve ever spoken with, or read about (with the exception of those who are being paid because they say otherwise) has said that it didn’t work for them. At most, it uses aversion therapy to condition people who are bi to avoid gay relationships. My personal experience confirms this as well.

    I agree that God’s power is not limited, and further that prayer is answered. But sometimes the answer is “No.”

  • Most Christians believe the Bible was either written or guided by God. The view that it is merely the opinions of men who were not divinely inspired is not prevalent among Christians (*), although proponents of Christianity as a progressive force are known to pretend otherwise.

    The notion that the Bible is just the opinions of men should ultimately lead (Hallelujah!) to atheism, because there is no reason to believe any of it once you accept that it was all made up by men.


  • Dear Mr. Moore,

    So…let me see if I get this right in regards to Christianity and sex. Christians who are straight only have to deal with the temptation of sex outside of marriage…while Christians who are gay have to deal with the temptation of simply existing? Straight Christians are allowed to have sex within marriage, but gay Christians can’t even so much as think about it?

    I bet you wonder why more and more Christians (straight, gay, and bi) are constantly rejecting the church and its teachings. It’s because you and people like you are essentially holding certain people to a higher standard of living based only on who they are. “Gay people should be celibate if they want to be Christ-like! Straight people, go at it like bunnies once you’re married! Bi people…we’re not really sure about you just yet, so maybe you can just be celibate first and we’ll go from there?”

    Now that you’ve come to the conclusion of “we can’t change gay people into straight people”, you’ve switched tactics to “we can tell gay people not to have sex”. You’re addressing what you see as a problem (gay people trying to reconcile *their very existence* with God) without addressing the actual problem (practitioners of Christianity judging gay people for daring to exist). You want to have the ability to tell gay people they’re lesser people because they’re gay without that act being seen as discriminatory or hateful.

    You and people like you are all so concerned with your own reputations that your feigned concern for the lives of gay people becomes even more transparent. If you truly gave a damn about gay people, you’d help them accept themselves for who they are rather than tell them not to be who they are in every aspect of their lives.

    Gay people are still people. You would do well to keep that fact in the back of your head when you go telling them what they should do with their lives.

    With all sincerity,
    Someone living in the 21st Century

  • As a former homosexual, I find many things in this article that taken together are a cause of great concern. I set them down briefly here:

    First, equating ex-gay therapy with the transformative power of the gospel sets up a false comparison. The ineffectiveness of the one does not imply the ineffectiveness of the other. Ex-gay therapy tends not to work simply because it is not the gospel. When the Apostle Paul told converted homosexuals in the church of Corinth that this is what they used to be, the change they experienced was not attributed to some kind of therapy, but to the effectiveness of grace resulting from faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Second, there is not a clear view present here of the biblical teaching on sin. For example, in Matt. 5 Christ taught that it wasn’t wrong only to commit adultery, but it was also wrong to desire to have sex with someone that wasn’t your wife. The principle laid down is that if it’s wrong to do something, then it’s also wrong to want to do it. So if it’s wrong to have sex with someone of the same sex, then same-sex desires are also wrong. Therefore the orientation in that direction must be seen as sinful.

    Third, this second point has a direct bearing on repentance, which is a necessary part of conversion. It’s not enough to turn from ungodly and unrighteous actions; there must also be a turning of the heart from evil desires to the things that please God. A gay person who comes to Christ must be willing to forsake not only same-sex activity, but also same-sex desire. This doesn’t mean there won’t be continuing temptation in this area, but it does mean a renunciation of those desires as sinful.

    Fourth, the biblical teaching on sanctification is understated by the perspective of this article. The elements involved in the progressive transformation effected by the grace of God in our lives relative to sin include at least three things. There is repentance, or turning from what displeases God to what pleases him; resistance, or fighting temptation to sin; and redirection, or replacing sinful thoughts and actions with righteous ones. Regarding same-sex attraction, this means that turning from it and resisting temptation in that direction is not all there is to it. There must also be a reorientation of the sexual desire into God-ordained channels.

    Fifth, singleness and celibacy are certainly viable options for any Christian, but the reality is that most of us who were converted from a gay past still have legitimate sexual desire. To tell us that our only reasonable option is to remain celibate is really quite cruel, not to say dangerous. Back to point four above, since the only God-approved form of sexual desire is other-sex oriented and its expression is to be within the context of male/female monogamous marriage, this means reorienting one’s sexual attraction in that direction and getting married to someone of the opposite sex.

    I do not mean to minimize or trivialize the real struggles and difficulties of people like me who have come to Christ out of a gay background, but I fear there is a present tendency in the church to dilute the biblical demands for holiness especially with regard to sexual purity as it applies to same-sex attraction. Compassion and understanding are certainly in order here, but the demands of self-denying discipleship are as applicable to those afflicted with same-sex attraction as to any other kind of sin.

  • So…in other words…gay people have to deny themselves any form of sexual pleasure whatsoever – to the point of denying the same sort of sexual attractions to another person that the Bible doesn’t necessarily condemn if straight people have them – to be just as good as the straight people who can hump like dogs in heat once they’re married?

    Gee that doesn’t sound like a double standard based on religious beliefs that come from a book written two millennia ago *AT ALL*.

  • “. . . like John Piper, a respected Minneapolis preacher and author . . . ” I can’t think of a more meaningless journalistic statement than that. . As a descriptor it means there is no difference between Tammy Faye Baker, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Robert Schuller, Mark Driscoll and John Shelby Spong.

  • “The utopian idea if you come to Christ and if you go through our program, you’re going to be immediately set free from attraction or anything you’re struggling with, I don’t think that’s a Christian idea,” Moore told journalists.

    Excuse me, but who ever said that? When Joseph Nicolosi emerged as a public figure about 20-odd years ago, he offered that about a quarter of his clients found his psychotherapeutic regimen helpful.

    Why does the evangelical world get stuck with such buffoons as its ‘leaders’???

  • Dennis: Amen and Amen!!! We need more people to speak this Truth as clearly and effectively as you have. Thank you, brother.

  • Sorry, with one caveat — I don’t necessarily agree with #4. The reorientation that is central is toward Christ and Christ alone – not heterosexual desire… Yes, it would be a blessing if over time, the Holy Spirit inclines us toward desiring the opposite sex, but that is not the goal or the object of our faith and freedom. It must be in Christ.

    In fact, most heterosexuals who sin in regard to their sexual desires also have the exact same remedy – Reorientation to Christ alone. Thanks..

  • If RNS had a Comment of the Day, it should go to something like shouting Hallelujah! in a pro-atheism post. kudos.

  • Because the vast majority of them are power mad, money hungry, dominionist buffoons who prefer to wrestle with their own demons by insisting that demons exist, and that other people must do as they say so that they can exorcise–or exercise– their own personal demons?

    That would be my guess.

  • Thank you Dennis Ames for a clear headed from both Scripture and experience comment. Satan knows which pretty poison will pull us away from pursuing Christ and same sex attraction is just one among many.

  • As someone who used to call myself a former homosexual and sought sexual orientation change through the ex-gay ministry Desert Stream, it became very clear that all it did was teach people to give glowing testimonies about how Christ healed us. It pushed us to get married to opposite sex spouses, which where trumpeted as proof of cure (though many fell apart later). And it taught us to believe that if we still had gay feelings we must not be trying hard enough.

    After a few years I reached a crisis point where I could no longer lie about who I am, dropped out (fortunately prior to marriage) and sought a gay Christian counselor to pick up the pieces. I couldn’t repair my relationship with God until I dropped the “former homosexual facade” and started being honest with myself and others.

    Most descriptions of the so-called “gay lifestyle” offered by “former homosexual” are full of addiction, abuse and psychological trauma. It took me a while to realize that they are as much outliers within the LGBT community as within the straight community.

    Sexual orientation is a continuum. There may be a small number of bi-sexual people who are able to repress their homosexual side and develop their heterosexual side. For the rest of us, it’s a shame and guilt ridden exercise that leads to spiritual and emotional damage. I’m glad ex-gay therapy is disappearing. It can’t happen soon enough.

  • For 2000 years, Christianity has attacked our right to exist as we are made. Its a prejudice so deeply ingrained in our culture, faith, laws, and even science that we cannot recognize it for what it is. We have been jailed, murdered, vilified, criminalized, and pathologized. We have been credited with causing earthquakes, the fall of civilizations, the wrath of god, and the collapse of marriage. We have been scapegoated for every possible social ill, called a threat to marriage, family, children, health, military, morality, heterosexuality, and freedom. Even the so-called word of god has been twisted and perverted beyond recognition, scholarship, and common sense to say something it doesn’t and to condemn something it knows nothing about.

    Families are wrecked, careers destroyed, kids commit suicide, faith in a loving god is lost, children go homeless.

    And for what? The crime of being different. Because some people are offended or enticed by what they imagine what we might do with our dangly bits, or believe their god doesn’t like it. Not a single belief about us has a shred of basis in fact, logic, or experience, let alone compassion, kindness, or decency.

    I’m sure many antigay people are very nice– just not to us or our lives. They are simply unwilling to challenge their prejudices, fears, stupidity, beliefs, ignorance, or their wholly unwarranted faith in their wholly imaginary, self-assigned superiority as heterosexuals, as Christians, as human beings.

    Bigotry need not be outright hatred. Nice people don’t want to be seen as bigots. That doesn’t mean they aren’t.

    The anti gays always claim that “Jesus” helped 10’s, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands “leave the lifestyle.” Alan chambers, head of exodus, the “leading” “ex-gay” “ministry”–multiple quotes intentional–back in the days before he admitted that no one changes, claimed “hundreds of thousands.”

    You’d think, wouldn’t you, that “all” of these people that “changed” would be more than happy to show the world that they had “changed”. There would be an immense parade of “former homosexuals” “changed” by “Jesus”. The jones and Yarhouse “study”, the best one of its kind, despite their connections to the “exgay” world, could only find 100 people to “study”, and had a 13% “change” rate, a “change” the authors themselves labelled “ambiguous, complicated, difficult”. In other words, they only “changed”, the didn’t change.

    “I used to be gay, but now I’m heterosexual” only means AT BEST “I’ve always been bisexual, but the gay part really bothered me.”

    It’s exhausting having to write all of these quote marks on an iPad. But I prayed to Jesus to help, and he did. That’s why there are so many of them.

    And now we have Russell Moore claiming that really, Exgay therapy isn’t the way to go, that it is unbiblical. does that mean the years and years of claiming otherwise we’re just misunderstandings? It only took the SBC 130 years to admit that slavery and Jim crow were not really the bedrock Word O’ God they had been claiming it was for 150 years. we have people posting here who claim that Exgay therpay does work, except no where do they claim they used to be homosexual, but are now thorough going 100% heterosexuals. Probably because they are not, just like John Paulk and John Smid, who swore up and down that they were heterosexual and God changed them, until they admitted that they had been lying through their yellowed fangs.

    Enough. When do you say enough, you so called Christians?

  • Oh, how nice. Now we’re tolls of satan.

    Exgay therapy doesn’t work, it has never worked. It has only turned people into layers, prevarications, and slanderers.

  • So you’re saying you should pretend to be straight and have a sham marriage with the opposite sex just to please your imaginary friend? That works out so well…

    I’ll believe Christian reorientation works the moment I see amputees growing back their limbs through faith healing.

  • Yes, I agree that the life of a Christian as a whole is oriented to following and obeying Christ. But I also think the Bible teaches that this will work itself out in detail as it applies to the various areas of our lives. Sex is one of those areas, and it is the area in focus in this discussion of same-sex attraction. I don’t feel that much of the teaching on this issue goes far enough and stops short of the real demands of the gospel relative to sexual purity. Same-sex attraction is a sinful attraction and needs to be dealt with like any other sin. Sometimes it seems like it gets a pass as though it’s unavoidable and irreversible. I don’t think that’s a very biblical position to take on the issue. That’s why I said what I did. Thanks for the feedback.

  • John Paulk, who was once a poster boy for the ex-gay movement, apologized in 2013 for the reparative therapy he used to promote.

    I do not think Paulk ever underwent reparative therapy.

  • Ex-gay therapy tends not to work simply because it is not the gospel.

    Lot’s of things achieve ends without being biblical. The thing is, it’s psychotherapy, and psychotherapy is generally not very effective, no matter what your objects are. The question at hand is whether it’s ‘unethical’ to give this sort of therapy if its your contention that psychotherapy is-in-general sufficiently worthwhile to be traded in by licensed professionals and compensated by insurance companies.

    Different therapists proceed along different lines, but the presupposition of the most prominent ones is that homosexuality emerges from certain sorts of family relations. If that’s not so, or if that is not so in the specific case they have in front of them, then the therapy will be effective only in a stopped clock sort of way.

    Again, Dr. Nicolosi was at one time more transparent than psychotherapists usually are about the utility of what he does, which is that sometimes it’s helpful but that this is an abiding problem for most of his clients.

  • Art, what the hell are you talking about? You are trying to pretend another professional view exists on the subject but give no reason to take such assertions seriously.

    There is not a single professional psychological study which has found “ex-gay” therapy to be anything short of destructive nonsense. What you are finding is those ex-gays from 20 years ago are refuting the therapy. Holding confusion and emotional turmoil as examples of how pernicious it is.

  • And you would be incorrect.
    In his own words,

    “I signed up for a year-long residential program called “Steps Out of Homosexuality.”

    “Please allow me to be clear: I do not believe that reparative therapy changes sexual orientation; in fact, it does great harm to many people. I know that countless people were harmed by things I said and did in the past, Parents, families, and their loved ones were negatively impacted by the notion of reparative therapy and the message of change. I am truly, truly sorry for the pain I have caused.”

  • Ok Justin – we’ll concede that just as you concede that you could choose to be gay. Please tell us about how and when you chose to be straight, what your considerations were, and what it would take to change your mind. I mean, if being gay is a choice for gays, being straight must be a choice for straights like yourself, right? We’ll await your response.

    Why not have a public dialogue on the medical safety of Sodomy, gay and straight, and ask these two simple medical questions?

    That is, Doesn’t the medical community recommend that you, “Wash your hands after you go to the bathroom.”?

    Yet, now there are some in the medical community that now say it’s OK to “Sleep with the waste that gets flushed down in the toilet?” and that it’s possible to live a perfectly normal life.

    Additional, the same can be said that there are some in the medical community that now say it’s OK to “Lick the toilet bowl” and that it’s also possible to live a perfectly normal life.

  • I can make vaginal sex sound just as disgusting and unhygienic if I wanted to.

    Here’s a newsflash: Not every gay man has anal sex and many heterosexuals choose to have anal sex.

  • Sorry, Dennis Ames, but until you can provide proof of who you are, and that your alleged “change” was verified by a disinterested psychologist, why should we believe a claim made by an anonymous online poster? How do we know you aren’t just another anti-gay making that claim to bolster the routine anti-gay claim that gay and lesbian Americans “can change”? To date, all the evidence scientists have found demonstrates “ex-gay” DOES NOT WORK.

  • Scientists have already proven why anti-gays express that obvious obsession with “gay sex”:

    “Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.”



    An agency of the federal government, the National Institutes of Health, publishes a supporting study:


    Here’s a video that illustrates that study:

    How about a You-tube SONG that explains this?

  • Many of Russell Moore’s actual words, as reported in this article, aren’t necessarily bad — because getting oneself OUT OF homosexuality can be just as much of a process as getting oneself INTO homosexuality. The process of God cleaning and healing a person up from a bad mess, can take some time. Might not be overnight every time.

    But the big problem with Moore’s words is exactly what you see in the RNS headline: Moore has now claimed, whether he actually meant to or not, that ALL reparative therapy doesn’t work. He has now denied his Bible, and preached the slimy gay extremist talking points. That’s how the media is reporting him even right now.

    Moore has effectively preached that gays really ARE “innate and unchangable”, to quote from one of the RNS discussion posters. Just like that Gay-Marriage Pope, Mr. Francis, the gay activists and their straight slaves will exploit Russell Moore’s words.

    That is how his words are being interpreted even now. Moore has just denied the Bible, (whether that was his intention or not), especially 1.Cor. 6:9-11 and 1 Cor. 10:13. Gay activists will have lots of fun with their new puppet.

  • The problem is not your unbelief.

    The problem is RUSSELL MOORE’s unbelief.

    That mess needs fixing pronto.

  • It seems to me that Russell Moore is right in stressing that it is deceitful to suggest to people who have struggled all their lives with a certain temptations, attractions, or desires that all their struggles will simply vanish overnight the moment they turn their lives over to Christ and/or go through a “course” of reparative therapy. But is that really what advocates of reparative therapy have said? Is that not painting with too broad a brush? Perhaps some have offered such naive promises; but it seems to me that others have been much more sober and realistic in their approach and have said that internal change is a process involving much work, and that it is gradual– taking place over many years, perhaps. What Moore cannot say is that it is impossible for God to ‘heal’ the sexual confusion, addictions, and disordered desires of a human heart. The fact is, many people who have been sexually abused as children and have experienced gender issues and same-sex attraction as a result have, through therapy, experienced dramatic inward healing. The Christian writer John White, in his book Eros Defiled, testifies to his own experience of sexual abuse as a child, which left him feeling confused and disoriented in his sexual desires. But over time, as he pursued Christian discipleship, those desires diminished and he developed a strong heterosexual orientation toward his wife. The same-sex attraction he once had faded to a dim memory. His experience is mirrored by that of others who have experienced substantial healing of a disordered emotional life in the area of their sexuality. Moore has no basis for denying that documented reality. That is why he really ought not to condemn with a broad brush all reparative therapy.

  • There is not a single professional psychological study which has found “ex-gay” therapy to be anything short of destructive nonsense.

    Nothing personal Larry, but Drs. Jones and Yarhouse have recently made a liar out of you. (Of course, Masters and Johnson also made a liar out of you a few decades ago, but you’ll need to do some library periodical and/or textbook work to find out exactly how.)

    But let’s face it: Gay activists don’t want anything to do with science anyway.

    Science has eroded and corroded the gay political lies of “innate” and “unchangable” past the point of no return, so now the gay activists (and their straight slaves) just want to shop around for biased libbie judges to help them impose their demon-possessed gay marriage agenda on the rest of us.

    Vampires don’t like garlic, and gays don’t like Science.

  • The dreadful double edged sword of applying ‘Sanctification’ to ones sexual orientation is that both straight and LGBT Christians are the losers. LGBT Christians for being shackled to that ‘heavy burden’ which Jesus warned of the Pharisees doing and still doing today. And straight Christians for being saddled with a demonstrably cruel and indefensible message. All of Christianity suffers for this evil dressed up as morality.

  • Yep, John Paulk has all-the-way floundered in the gay hog waller. Didn’t have to turn out that way, but by John’s own admission, he chose what he chose — the hog waller.

    John Paulk’s credibility is gone, no matter what he says, or who he says it to. Let’s just hope that Russell Moore doesn’t flush HIS credibility completely down the toilet as well.

    Meanwhile, up in Heaven, it’s better than even odds that John’s former wife Anne Paulk ( a former lesbian), probably will qualify for Martyr Status With High Honors, just for putting up with that John Paulk turncoat while she was proving with her own life, day-in day-out in the workaday world, that Christ REALLY CAN clean up and heal up the difficult stuff like homosexuality, and bring new life and transformations to a person.

  • Yes, ideas such as “Gay is Okay” and “Once Gay Always Gay.”

    That’s how you wipe out a teenager. Feed ’em THAT poison.

  • Groups like the pro-gay Evangelicals Concerned are full of ex-ex-gays who realized what they were doing is an exercise in delusion and denial yet wanted to keep their faith.

  • And make no mistake — there are some news articles about California’s attack on reparative therapy, articles that make a point of mentioning that some churches still believe in things like “being born again by the Spirit is to have our affections reoriented toward Christ alone as He is offered to us in the scriptures — and away from the things of this world.”

    Russell Moore may think he’s attacking reparative therapy at no cost to the churches, but he’s dead wrong. State and Federal Bans are going to target not just change-oriented reparative therapists but change-oriented CHURCHES as well, once the libbie judges are convinced nobody will stand up on the issue.

    To the gay extremists and their straight slaves, “reorientation” and “reparative” are actually SYNONYMS against the Gay Marriage Agenda.

    That fact, in turn, will guarantee that Bible believing churches like those Moore are associated with, will PAY THE PRICE tomorrow just like the reparative therapists are forced to pay the price today. Moore has committed a real mistake, and long-term results will be suffered by Bible-believing churches.

  • No you can’t, at least not honestly. A vagina is designed for intercourse. An anus is designed to expel waste. Whoever is having anal sex, gay or straight, is doing something unnatural, unhygienic, and, in the long run, quite harmful. This is plainly evident to all and suppressed by those who wish to deny nature.

  • Im still trying to figure out what Baptist mean by reparative therapy ?

    this therapy did it include a blow up doll and tire repair kit ?.

    if so its kind of obvious to me why that didn’t work out to well..


  • I’d be more than glad to answer. You see, for me to be straight is quite natural. I have never had a homosexual thought, and I plan on keeping it that way. For you see, that’s the way that God designed it. His Word confirms that numerous times.

    Yes, homosexuality is a choice. However, there are consequences for this sinful choice. According to the CDC, despite only about 2% of the population considers themselves gay, yet account for over 60% of all new HIV/AIDS cases. People need to know about this, yet I cannot speak this without being called a homophobic bigot (and I’ve been called that numerous times).

    Homosexuality is sin, and I refuse to engage in that since I’ve been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour. I pray that you find him as well.

  • So, you mean to tell me that God is going to tell a person that what’s to escape from sin “no”, then I do not serve a just God. I refuse to believe the statement you are making. If someone wants to be free from the sin of homosexuality, then God will cleanse someone of that.

  • It is not a choice. I know this first hand. You do not. Your words are meaningless. My god knows me and knows I did not choose this. You have no right to assume you know what I have chosen or not chosen . You are an arrogant, closed minded bigot. You give us Christians a bad name.

  • Saying they will be clean of the sin of homosexuality is an obfuscation of the reality, and it’s very easy. just don’t have gay see, gay friends, don’t go to gay events and venues, don’t read gay books or go to gay movies. Voila, you’re free of it.

    But are you heterosexual, which is what all of this is about? most emphatically not.

  • The guy worked for bigots and funy shills. My level of care is about zero.

    Nobody takes ex-gay therapy seriously anymore. Get over it.

  • If sex wasn’t inherently unhygienic, sexual congress of any type and waste disposal would not be performed with the same organs. 🙂

  • @Rick,

    “It is not a choice. I know this first hand. You do not.”

    As a heterosexual Atheist, I easily empathize with your argument and have compassion for your dilemma with your religion. You won’t get much empathy from Christians.

    Christians profess the ‘compassion of Jesus’ and the ‘condemnation of Jesus’ in the same breath. Because Jesus told them to do it that way and his followers must obey:

    (1 Corinthians 5:11)

    “Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” (1 Corinthians 15:33)

    “But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)

    “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting” (2 John 1:10)

    “Avoid Them” (Romans 16:17)

    “For whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” (2 John 1:11)

    “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault.” (Matthew 18:15)

    Once all of that dehumanization is normal, it becomes rather easy
    To take further actions and step up the pressure on gays:


    SEPTEMBER 4, 2014

    We are much better behaved and more civilized without any Jesus at all.

  • Uh… The context for the quotation completely reverses what Mohler means. He said IF the argument of a pro-gay Christian could be accepted, then Christians would have to apologize. Then he said the argument is not. valid.

    Shame on you for misrepresenting.

  • You’re using a 12-year-old rant from a random man (who for all we know may have reverted back to homosexuality ever since) as a counterargument?

  • Spot on, as the Brits say. But one quibble. Opposition to homosexuality only really took off in the fourth century, then REALLY, REALLY got bad after the 11th.

  • First of all, “reparative therapy” is a creation of the religious right in America. For that, all I really want to hear is, “we’re so, so sorry”. Then go sit in the corner and don’t say a word about homosexuality for 10 years. It’s penance.

    Secondly, I’ll believe Baptists who advocate reparative therapy when they do it for free….

  • Perhaps God says no to requests to turn gay people straight because God does not regard people who are gay to be any more sinful than others.

  • It’s only poison to the bigots. To the rest of the people who are not poisoned by their hate fear. Ignorance, religious belief, or totally u warranted sense of superiority, it’s truth

  • It wasp no attack on reparative therapy, it was an attack on a political agenda disguised as sincere religious belief, oN a field of “knowledge” that has been thoroughly discredited.

  • They may have found his regimen helpful. But that doesn’t mmean that any of them be dame heterosexual

  • Jones and Yarhouse?bSeriously, doc Anthony’s?

    13% of their subjects became heterosexual, which the researchers themselves described as difficult, complicated, and ambiguous.

    In other words, they didn’t change, but desperately wanted to.

  • It’s always cute to say that people used to believe the the world was flat. Check again. First there are references in the Bible to the earth being an orb that hangs in space, written BC long before Christ. Virtually all the world knew it and thinkers proved it like 300 BC. Google it.

    As for gay being genetic, the head of the human genome project said it’s just not there. And even if it were, would it be considered a mutation.

    You can mock the Bible if you want but there is also such a thing as the laws of nature, and the designs of anatomy. Dah. The penis was made to go into a vagina to make a new life. Dah.

  • Process is the right word for what goes on. There are many issues that go into it, and in order to get out of it, or rather to get it out of you, the ball of internal knots have to be undone one by one, which takes time and commitment. I know and I can say that it does work. It requires a commitment and a serious of right choices, like stopping with the porn, like praying seriously and meditating, and confronting one’s past, much like getting over alcoholism or drug addiction, and for some it is much easier and quicker than for others.

  • “. . . certain factions of the Christian community”

    You mean like Jesus and the Apostles?

    Teaching anyone that “gay is OK” is calling Jesus and the Apostles a bunch of liars.

    Which I’m sure that liberals and progressives are OK with.

    [email protected]

  • That’s nonsense invented by John Boswell. There exist numerous ancient Jewish and Christian writings from the 1st through 3rd centuries that directly condemn same-sex behavior.

  • Are you going to tell the woman you plan to marry about your same sex desires and (relative) lack of opposite ones? How much life experience and knowledge of biology will the woman have? I suspect the more she has the less likely she is to be willing to be part of a MOC-mixed orientation couple. [It would be interesting to see a study on how they work out–though I doubt a controlled one is out there given the she of many closeted men. All each side has is anecdotes.] I suspect the success of a MOC would depend on how much bisexuality the ssa partner had. All I can say, as a heterosexual woman, is that I would hate to have sex with a man who was forcing himself to do it–or having to fantasize about men to complete the sex act with me. It is almost akin to rape–in both directions.

  • Are you going to tell the woman you plan to marry about your same sex desires and (relative) lack of opposite ones? How much life experience and knowledge of biology will the woman have? I suspect the more she has the less likely she is to be willing to be part of a MOC-mixed orientation couple. [It would be interesting to see a study on how they work out–though I doubt a controlled one is out there given the she of many closeted men. All each side has is anecdotes.] I suspect the success of a MOC would depend on how much bisexuality the ssa partner had. All I can say, as a heterosexual woman, is that I would hate to have sex with a man who was forcing himself to do it–or having to fantasize about men to complete the sex act with me. It is almost akin to rape–in both directions.

  • A heterosexual who has gotten to know a couple of ex-gays AND the resource people who supported them in their journey.

    You know, the folks you sort of hate.

  • Huh? Jesus did not speak against homosexuality…and I challenge you to consider that the Apostles didn’t either. Read Romans 1 in its own context, and go ahead and read all of Romans. There are some ‘Christians’ ideas about meanings that are, at minimum, questionable. Add to that reality for people with a homosexual orientation, and any honest person must question the anti-gay stand and whether is makes any sense, whatsoever, to conclude that a loving God would despise the love relationships among His gay and lesbian children, who love Him dearly. In other cases, such as1 Corinthians 6:9, do some word studies- do your homework, and with an open heart to the Spirit of God and in the context of known reality. It is false to claim that asserting that ‘gay is OK’ makes liars of Jesus and the Apostles, what it does is challenges a long held, but erroneous, set of beliefs that have done enormous damage to people and to the true Gospel of Christ. Those beliefs and the stand against a people have turned many off to Christ who would otherwise cling to Him. Still, many do cling to Christ, even so, because they know Him, but they are driven away from the churches because of the oppression they preach.

  • The context is important. Reparitive Therapy that actually repairs damage is a good thing, but attempted repairs of what is not broken, and the premise that homosexuality stems from brokenness is neither reparitive nor therapy, and is actually in itself quite damaging.

  • I often hear the pro-homosexual side bring up the issue of suicide, and try to blame the discouragement of homosexuality as the reason.

    That being said, what we DO Know is far more homosexuals die from STDs and other issues related to their sex lives than those who commit suicide.

    It’s an immoral and sinful lifestyle. You can’t fix that, only escape from it.

  • Jesus as a Jew would have believed the sinfulness of homosexual behavior. It was accepted. It would be like saying gravity isn’t real because jesus didn’t mention it. Jesus also affirmed Gods created order for marriage and sexuality, man plus woman. No getting around that.

  • She’s pointing out that gay historian John Boswell’s claim, which BobN mentioned, has been refuted.

  • Anne was never a lesbian, despite what she claims. In her accounts of her adolescence she describes meandering around various urges, including a period of time she was very sexually attracted to men. This is not what a lesbian says. She was likely bisexual. (Women seem to have more sexual fluidity than men.)

  • @ Ellen

    A person has to take what Jesus said in totality, not just bits and pieces. Jesus’ radical claim was that he was God, the same God of the old testament. And to answer your point directly, Jesus did say something about marriage between and women. He referenced the Genesis story when he said “for this a man will cleave to his wife and a women to her husband”. So even if Jesus never spoke explicitly on homosexuality, I think any honest reader would at least conclude that Jesus taught that marriage was a union between a man and woman. Now Jesus and his apostles did speak of impurity and the sexually immorality. Now the question is ‘what is the biblical definition of sexual immorality?’ Well, the answer from the scripture any intimate sexual congress outside the boundary and covenant of marriage. So when we follow the logical path here we should conclude that homosexual acts are immoral since the fall outside the boundary of biblical marriage, and they always will.

    And I would also say that a reading of Romans 1 is probably the best scripture used against homosexuality. I’m not sure how someone, like yourself, can read this and not conclude that the homosexuality (male or female) is described as an unrighteous act and that the people who engaged in it are committing acts of unrighteousness and immorality.

    What is the anti-gay stand? I would hold that the bible teaches that acts of a sexual nature between unmarried persons are sinful. That makes sense to me. Why not to you?

    I think the book of John, especially chapter 14, would answer your next question. It makes perfect sense to conclude that God would despise the “love relationships” among his gay children. (I take “love relationships” to mean sexual acts). It says multiple times that God hates sin. In this sense, even if his children (which I take as “saved”, not all people everywhere), disobey and commit sin, it makes perfect sense that God will despise the disobedient action. As an example: I, myself, I’m a child of God, but God stills despises the sinful acts I do. What he does is ask me to repent and stop doing those sinful actions. Also, referring back to John, if gay people really were God’s children, if they truly loved God, they would obey his commandments and try not to engaged in homosexuals acts. Now, I’m not saying that gay people can’t be Christians; like all saved people, they have temptations like all else. However, I am saying that a person who is so stubborn and so affront to God’s commands, that they are completely unwilling to repent of this, would give me serious doubt as to their sincerity of their conversion.

    And thanks for bringing up 1 Cor 6:9. With that verse you actually answered your question at the beginning “I challenge you to consider that the Apostles didn’t either.” Clearly Paul did in 1 Cor 6:9, so thanks for bringing up that verse.

    If you interpret ‘Gay is OK’ to mean ‘being attracted to someone of the same sex is sinful’ than yes, I would agree that this is erroneous and not biblical. But if you interpret this as ‘engaging in homosexual acts is OK’, it is clear from the biblical scriptures that this is in fact sinful and an unrighteous act.

  • Hey Larry, some folks still do. And sometimes it works, in real peoples’ lives.

    Now for you, that doesn’t mean anything. You don’t care about ex-gays at all, except to hate and despise them like the gay activists do. C’est la vie.

    (But some of us expected a lot MORE from a Mr. Russell Moore, since he is a Christian leader. He could have and should have spoken a lot better than what he did, based on the Bible that he says he believes in.)

    But that’s okay. Moore can do or say whatever he wants, just like the gay activists and the atheists.

    Let those who are actually DOING the work, let those who are actually making a BIG difference in restoring people’s lives, and let those who are bringing Christ’s incomparable, invincible HEALING into peoples’ personal situations, keep on doing the work. That’s the real news story. 1 Cor. 10:13 and 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

    They don’t need permission from atheists, gay activists, or even Southern Baptists. Nope.

    Talking about some unique, special, caring, good workers and journey-walkers like the Restored Hope Network. Some Christians will still support them. Me too.

  • @ Julia

    Not to disagree with anything you said, I just want to point out a scientific finding. The most likely genetic cause for homosexuality is the X28 gene. Other theories have been falsified thanks to experiments like the twin studies and others like it. It should be noted however that the genetic theory (X28 gene) is a genetic theory that only applies to male homosexuality.

    There are currently no genetic theories for female homosexuality. You read that right. Not even a THEORY (based on genetics) for female homosexuality. The best theory for this lies more in sociology and psychiatry, but not genetics.

  • You don’t really know what Jesus actually said (if he even existed at all). All you have is the Bible, which was written and edited by several people long after the supposed events.

    Even if he really believed homosexuality was a sin, so what? He could also have believed the sun revolved around the Earth and that humans were only around for 3000 years; he would still be wrong.

  • Look at who and what I was responding to. It was Ellen that brought up the Bible. She was the one that brought up Romans 1 & 1 Cor. Not me. I was responding to her on she said. And if she was the one who brought up the authority of Jesus, his apostles, and scripture passages, then I do have the right to respond to those on that same foundation.

    You should really look at what historians have written in high academia. All historians worth his salt believes that Jesus existed. Ironically, the person who has been the most vocal voice against this flawed ancient theory is Bart Ehrman, a skeptic, most definitely not a Christian. What the majority of historians don’t agree with is the deity of Jesus, but his existence is one of the most substantial historical facts of ancient times. The pop culture claims that he never existed typically come from non-historians, typically people with a major in religious studies, comparative religion, and the like. And their claims have been refuted long before they ever put pen to paper. This issue is most people in this field stay away from the historical field and don’t read published academic history books and articles.

  • One of the researchers involved in the recent Xq28 study (Northwestern Univ.) said the following:

    “When people say there’s a gay gene, it’s an oversimplification,” Alan Sanders said.

    “There’s more than one gene, and genetics is not the whole story. Whatever gene contributes to sexual orientation, you can think of it as much as contributing to heterosexuality as much as you can think of it contributing to homosexuality. It contributes to a variation in the trait.”

    —from The Guardian (UK). 02-13-2014

  • Oh, I completely agree with that. It most definitely is an over simplification. The issue is that this is worth is being run all throughout the mainstream media, and this is what our laws are being based off of. I forget his name, but the person who is the head of the X28 experiments, has published an article in which he states that his experiments do not show a deterministic cause for sexual orientation. He himself, after looking at his own data, said that sexual orientation is probably based on genetics, environment and social upbringing, with environment and social upbringing playing the majority role.

    If this is true imagine what that should mean for our laws and practices. I would be the first to claim, if it was shown that genetics had a deterministic cause with sexual orientation being the effect, that sexual orientation is immutable. But, if what these studies in genetics are giving evidence for is true, and sexual orientation does in fact have environmental and social upbringing forces being it, then I think that gives evidence that sexual orientation is not immutable; it would be mutable.

    Think about this, we do have studies that have taken place that do show that males who grow up in a household where the father is abusive to both him and his father, that this has an outcome on how he will grow up. Most male violent offenders grew up in an abusive home. Now, who wants to claim that these men would have grown up to be violent offenders had they NOT been raised in abusive homes?

    In the same way, I personally believe that people who classify themselves as gay, that it is possible that had they been raised in a different home with a different set of life events and different personalities around them, then they would have, in theory, not have grown up to be gay.

  • Doc Anthony, are you a reparative therapist? Because it seems you have something to lose out of all this.

  • What a bunch of lies. Just because he is ineffectual in helping some homosexuals process the journey of discipleship and some change their orientation, he should not condemn others who are very good in this area, Mario Bergner, Living Waters Ministry, Joseph Nicolosi, just to name a few.

    I used to hate Jesus and my heavenly Father has changed my orientation that I can’t wait to marry a man.

    Tim Wright

  • Rick, how can a just God allow people to live in sin? The Bible specifically condemns homosexuality, and anybody that is in that kind of relationship and does not repent of that through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ has been condemned to Hell for all eternity. That’s a fact. You call yourself a Christian, and I have no right to say otherwise. However, I am allowed to look at your fruits that you are bearing to make a judgement call on that claim. You claim that I am an “arrogant, closed-minded bigot”. Ephesians 4:32 states that we are to “be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” By trying to degrade me, you are violating God’s Word, thus having committed a sin. I do forgive you of this sin.

    There is no such thing as a “gay Christian” for two reasons:
    (1) God’s Word has condemned the practice of sinful sexual relationships. The only sex to be enjoyed is to be between a man and a woman in the confines of marriage.

    (2) Gays cannot come to Christ because they refuse to let go of this sin. When one accepts Christ, we lay ALL of our sins at the cross, not just specific ones.

    You cannot convince me nor prove to me that homosexuality is not a choice. Nobody is born being gay. Geneticists have looked for a gene that links homosexuality to genetics. It does not exist. My prayer is that anybody that reads, if everything else is ignored, that everyone will come to know the true saving grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Thank you, and God bless.

  • But God wants to cleanse people of ALL sin? How can God sit back and reject someone’s plea for salvation, forgiveness, and cleansing? He doesn’t.

  • You can’t be convinced because your mind has already been made up and won’t accept or seek information that contradicts your views. There are many studies that suggest sexual orientation develops biologically. There is ZERO evidence that supports your religious beliefs.

  • Genes are not the only biological factors. There’s also epigenetics, hormones, prenatal conditions, brain structure, etc.

    Even if it wasn’t inborn, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s mutable or reversible.

  • You’re right, Tim. My mind is made up, because my faith fully relies on the Word of God, and that’s all I need.

  • Lies, lies, and more lies, Doc.

    EXODUS, the leading change ministry, FINALLY, after 40 years of claiming that thousands of people had changed, admitted that no one changes. neither Freud nor Jesus has EVER turned anyone from gay to straight. gay to Exgay, perhaps, but that really isn’t the same thing.

    Sounds to me, “doc”, that you are someone who has been peddling this nonsense. whether to yourself or others,I have no idea.

    What I do know is that the tide is turning against you and yours, at least in the civilized world. and you don’t like it one bit.

  • All that has been shown thus far is (1) certain therapies may not work and (2) the therapeutic/psychological approach itself has inherent limitations.

    None of this proves that God can’t change people’s hearts or inclinations, sexual or otherwise.

    I wish evangelicals were less into experience and feelings and more into thinking and reasoning theologically and biblically.

  • Actually Ehrman started out as a conservative Christian, and he does accept a historical Jesus.

    Still, evidence for his existence is flimsy at best. Practically nothing is known about Jesus outside what’s written in the gospels.

  • “She’s pointing out that gay historian John Boswell’s claim, which BobN mentioned, has been refuted.”

    Actually it hasn’t. But its not like theologians have any real standards in presenting arguments. Refuting simply means saying “nyah, nyah, no it isn’t”

  • Joe Dallas, Genesis Counseling, Living Faith Ministries, Probe Ministries, would all disagree with Moore’s and others feelings. Sexual addictions, choices, are a choice. This is behavioral. Behavior can be changed. God does not make a our desires, our minds one way, and our bodies Biologically another way. And yes, I do agree, Psychology is not the answer. What is, is the Truth. God’s Truth. In His creative order. Kinds after their own kinds.
    Is Moore hiding something?
    God is a great God of restoration.

  • David Cary Hart, why must the answer to one extreme — parents kicking out children who say they are gay — be to lurch to the opposite extreme?

    Concerning therapy, its ability to change people was overhyped, but that doesn’t follow that nobody was changed.

    But even if no therapy works, that doesn’t mean that being gay is immutable. A large percentage of Christians have always insisted that psychology as a whole doesn’t work, period, for much of anything. Many Christians have long opposed even what is called Christian psychology.

    In other words, the argument that if psychology fails, that must mean homosexuality is immutable, is based on the premise that psychology is the only way or the best way to change people. But that’s a seriously flawed premise, especially for those who believe that God can and does change lives in His own way, and has been doing so long before psychology emerged in the modern era.

  • You mean if you were living like the Lord Jesus Christ, you can not wait to marry a woman.

    Matthew 19:4-6

    4 He replied, Have you never read that He Who made them from the beginning made them male and female,

    5 And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united firmly (joined inseparably) to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?(A)

    6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder (separate).

  • It seems the average person has a lot more on the ball than today’s leaders, political or religious.

    Put another way, the wrong people have made it into leadership positions, both in politics and in the church.

    In politics, the answer is to throw the bums out.

    In the church, I guess the answer is for people to form new movements which will birth new leadership.

  • I’m glad I ate lunch a few hours ago, but you’re correct in what you just said. The fact that too many heterosexuals disagree with you is what’s making it harder to make a full-blown natural-law, general-revelation, or common-grace argument against homosexuality as a lifestyle.

  • Motivation for Change:
    Joe Dallas had proclaimed that Jesus was the Christ sent from God the Father to pay for the sins of the world in his junior year of high school. Joe had become a born again Christian and that commitment meant that he would follow God’s plan for mankind and he would strive to become more like Jesus. Joe fell away from that commitment and in January of 1984 he repented. In Joe’s own words, “I confessed to God what He had known all along. I had been wrong, and I had to change.”

  • Josh, identical twin studies alone confirm your point — that there is a significant environmental component. If homosexuality were genetically determined, then the divergence between twins should be negligible. That is, when one twin is gay as an adult, the other twin should also be gay. Yet identical-twin studies don’t even come close to showing that high a correlation.

  • Did Dr. Moore reject “ex-gay therapy,” or did he only clarify what is generally misunderstood? Several things need to be said about what therapeutic and spiritual “failures” mean in ex-gay change methods.

    1.Many of the “ex-gay” self-help groups have been run by well-meaning people who have no idea what they are doing. They have no professional training and no concept of what to do or what to expect when individuals go through their program. They claim to be able to cure homosexuality, even though no professional therapist would ever claim to produce “cures”. When people go through such a program and are not completely cured–and become completely heterosexual–they suffer despair and consider themselves failures.

    We can all see an analogy in our Christian lives. Although many people change dramatically after conversion and during their Christian walk, we all still struggle with sinful desires throughout our lives; we are never “cured” from sin. The same is true for “ex-gays,” both psychologically and spiritually.

    2. All legitimate psychotherapists know a rule of thumb called the “one-third rule”.

    On average, in any form of therapy, for any problem, about one-third of the people who enter the program will not finish it and will “fail”.

    Another third will finish the program but will not be helped by it, for a variety of reasons.

    But one-third will be helped: some will show dramatic change, while others will show more modest change. This very same phenomenon has been consistently manifested in professional “ex-gay therapy”: many fail, some are helped significantly, others miraculously!

    Obviously, most people who enter some form of psychotherapy will be “failures”. If we were to outlaw therapies which have more failures than successes, we would have to outlaw ALL psychotherapy.

    3. No legitimate therapist will claim to “cure” anyone completely of anything. The idea of a psycho-therapeutic “cure” is a myth which exists in the minds of the uninformed public.

    I once sat in a room with a PhD professional psychotherapist (gay-identified) who made exactly these points to his audience. When someone asked him how he would “cure” a certain problem, he immediately responded that he could not produce cures. Rather, he helped people develop strategies to cope with, and reduce, unwanted feelings, anxieties, or behaviors. This also happens in truly professional “ex-gay therapy”.

    4. Dishonest opponents of “ex-gay therapy” play on the ignorance of the public as to the above facts. These opponents claim that unless everyone is completely and permanently cured, this form of therapy is false and needs to be outlawed. Even some Christians are deceived by these false charges.

    Even though professional organizations claim there is no scientific evidence that ex-gay therapy works, they fail to tell the public that individuals in many ex-gay studies show dramatic changes, but some deficiency in the studies causes them to be labeled scientifically insufficient.

    The same organizations also admit that there are no scientific studies which show that ex-gay therapy does or does not work, or causes harm to those in these therapy programs.

    “There are no studies of adequate scientific rigor to conclude whether or not recent SOCE do or do not work to change a person’s sexual orientation.”

    “As to the issue of possible harm, the task force was unable to reach any conclusion regarding the efficacy or safety of any of the recent studies of SOCE: ‘There are no methodologically sound studies of recent SOCE that would enable the task force to make a definitive statement about whether or not recent SOCE is safe or harmful and for whom,’ according to the report.”

  • Actually, Pan, if that were the case, few intelligent people would believe the Bible or its truth claims. In fact, we find that some of the most brilliant and scholarly people have believed in it. Not only that, but many at first were skeptics, but were won over by what they deem the overwhelming evidence for its being true.

    You probably know next to nothing about the entire field of apologetics, because if you did, you’d be a lot more cautious and tentative in your posts.

  • Justin, don’t listen to airheaded posts. God was, is, and will always be in the business of changing lives. Long before there was a thing called reparative therapy, God was changing people from being gay to being straight. God’s ability to do that and more is not limited to specific therapies. Reparative therapy as it’s currently constituted probably helps some people, but not all and perhaps not most. Those evangelicals who would throw the whole idea away are more than a bit cowardly. The obvious answer is to go back and analyze what sorts of people have had the most success with it and why. It is telling that all the anti-biblical forces in our society are taking the unscientific approach of abandoning the thing altogether.

  • Adam, you’re being simplistic. The most likely explanation, one which does justice both to the Biblical notion of sin and the scientific findings about sexuality, may be something like the following:

    Sexuality in a fallen world manifests itself on a continuum.

    On one end of the pole are a considerable number of people who are heterosexual and will always be, no matter what happens to them as they go through life.

    ON the other end are a much smaller number of people who are homosexual and will always be, absent a miracle of God.

    IN between the two ends of the pole, but far closer to the heterosexual end, is probably where most people are — without knowing it. This positioning explains, for example, why a fair number of men who have never had any attraction to other men in their life eventually behave as homosexuals when locked away in prison for decades.

    This sort of fluidity is, from a biblical standpoint, one of the consequences of fallen human nature.

    So while sexuality is not simply a choice, there is fluidity given a fallen world. Thankfully, most of us will never have to experience that fluidity….we were heterosexual, we are heterosexual, and we are happy to be so. But put most of us in completely different environments for decades and literally only God knows what will happen……again, because all of humanity is fallen and frail and in need of salvation.

  • Do I have to quote Josephus’ Against Apion again? Philo’s “On Abraham?” The Midrash? The Babylonian Talmud? Even the pagan Plutarch’s “On Love?” All from before the 4th century, all opposed to same-sex behavior. Boswell lied.

    Did you finish the “koite” assignment yet? Or are you just here to say “nyah nyah nyah?”

  • “Practically nothing is known about Jesus outside what’s written in the gospels.”

    Nothing wrong with the gospels. Four different biographies of a person, written by four different authors, from a time and place from which not much survives, is pretty good evidence that that person existed.

  • Penny, if you’re correct, then why do we keep hearing from people who insist that such therapy helped them?

    Are they lying?

    Or are you making a sweeping generalization?

    What’s needed here is honesty on all sides.

    Apparently, that therapy was overhyped…..but you’re taking things to the opposite extreme. The more honest and scientific approach would be to study the people who apparently did change and see why and how.

    As for your comment on Biblical exegesis on homosexuality, you’re talking sheer nonsense. The Biblical passages on homosexuality are as clear as a bell, and were seen as such throughout the history of both peoples of the Book — Jews and Christians.

    What’s missing from your post is any sense of history — of the way generations before us viewed the text and even the way they viewed sexuality. Like most pop psychology approaches to life, yours is shallow because it is frozen in one narrow time and place — this time and place — and thus reflects biases that other cultures did not have. It is provincial and parochial…

  • You actually have a point….it is pretty darned glib for someone to tell gays just to be celibate and then wash their hands of the matter.

    He really does seem to be saying that he doesn’t give a hoot but just wants to get out from under the quandary.

    But what Moore needs to do is not capitulate to your demands and accept homosexuality, but to renew his faith in the power of God to change lives from top to bottom, in every arena of life, with or without reparative therapy or any other technique.

  • Dennis Ames, that’s an outstanding post. I wouldn’t change a thing about it.

    If you haven’t done so already, you should write a book on the subject. You have not only the authority to speak borne from your experience, you also have a clear-eyed understanding of what the Bible says, and most importantly, how best to apply it.

    May God continue to bless you and give you the words to speak truth in love. Keep it up.

  • Not when there are many contradictions, omissions, historical inconsistencies and additions to the original texts.

  • That’s what I keep asking, Art Deco.

    But I can ask the same question about political leaders as well, from all sides.

    There’s something wrong with a society where the wrong people rise to the top. CS Lewis identified that as a symptom of a society going down for the count, or being in danger of doing so.

  • Ben, you have no idea how desperate and silly you sound. If you’re correct, then literally every person in history who tells us they have changed and shows every evidence of having changed are liars. When someone tells me they’ve changed and exhibit the evidence, who am I to say they’re lying — and why I should assume such a thing?

  • If SOCE really worked, why aren’t any of the “successes” coming forward with objective, testable proof of their change?

  • Jesus as a Jew would have also believed calling oneself “God” or “Son of God” would be heretical and against Judaism…

  • I bet as soon as Dennis changes his views or is caught with men, you’re going to say he was never “truly a Christian.”

  • Moore didn’t deny those Corinthian passages, Doc Anthony. He believes that it is the Gospel and the Holy spirit that sanctifies, not some special human-concocted therapy. Moore had a panel of people join him that formerly lived homosexual lifestyles, but were now celibate or in heterosexual marriages—but none of them credit reparative therapy. I recommend watching some of the videos. They are available on YouTube and the ERLC website.

  • Some of the most brilliant people in history also believed in the ancient myths of the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Mesopotamians, etc.

  • How incredibly sad. Another “religious leader” selling out to the myths, ensuring at least some individuals would remain trapped in a life of misery (while, all the while, professing to be ‘gay’).

    I wonder. If an individual is addicted to adultery, would he also insist therapy to help end this harmful behavior be abandoned – maybe even BANNED? How about pron? Certainly for some individuals this destructive behavior is very addictive – perhaps, after enough years, as addictive as appears to be homosexuality. Should those trapped in porn also just “tough it out” without the benefit of help and assistance? Should we BAN anti-porn therapy simply because the pro-porn industry lobbies ferociously against any efforts to decrease the market for porn?

    And, of course, for porn and adultery “it’s in their genes”.

  • Per the NIH 47% of all homosexual men report being molested as children (gay pedophile, that is). There exists not stronger correlation for what causes an individual to start believing he/she is homosexual. Of course, this pesky fact would mean homosexuals are actually IN CONTROL ….. and RESPONSIBLE …. for the lives they lead, including all the horrific life decisions they may have made. And THAT, boys and girls, is anathema to homosexuals! Far better to pretend there is a “flying gay spaghetti gene”.

  • If that was entirely true, everyone who was molested as a child would grow up to be gay, yet that’s not the case for most of them.

  • Homosexuality is a choice.
    Mayor Deblasio’s wife was a supposed homosexual…now poof she’s not.
    It’s making excuses for debauchery and sin.

  • If it was true that homosexuality had biological deterministic factors, then indentical twin, who share the exact DNA, would also the same sexual orientation. Thanks to Twin Studies, this hypothesis has been falsified. There is no deterministic biological factor to sexual orientation.

    Social upbringing is the strongest, and most accepted, factors in determining sexual orientation.

  • Ninety percent of smokers never get lung cancer, but no one denies that smoking is a huge risk factor.

  • @Shawnie5:

    I guess you completely missed what “tim” was telling you; a pity since it’s pretty conclusive. Maybe I can help you.

    The “Twin Studies” show about 50% of IDENTICAL twins, raised together (also identical environment), end up believing they are BOTH homosexuals whenever they are not both normal. Homosexual activists have misconstrued these results and attempted to claim this shows there IS a biological determinant, but the opposite is true.

    Here are individuals with identical DNA …. AND ALSO raised together (near identical environment). One would expect, then, that is essentially 100% of all cases where one of them is “gay”, the other also would be. That is ESPECIALLY true given the ‘cross-pollination’ that exists – where the twins influence each other.

    Yet in HALF of all cases – despite the identical DNA and environment – when one is “gay” the other is NOT. This blows a hole a mile wide in the “gay gene” excuse for not taking personal responsibility.

  • Then the reporting of it was poor….or Russell Moore and his people stepped on their own message. They should have been far more clear that they believe that God can change gay people even when psychological therapies don’t. Instead, they left us with the impression that they’re surrendering the notion that gay people can change.

  • Tim, you’re making the same argument against environment determining homosexuality as we are making against genetics determining it. The difference is that while your side is trying to convince people that genetics determine homosexuality, our side is doing nothing of the kind regarding environment doing so. What we are saying is that genetics are far from decisive, as evidenced by environmental factors.

    The fact that you are entirely dismissive of the 47% figure shows you are not being intellectually honest.

  • Robert Q, you are absolutely right, but unless you’re being sarcastic, you seem to be assuming that Shawnie is not agreeing with you, when she is.

    Gay activists and their supporters avoid the findings you mentioned and probably hope against hope that nobody will bring them up.

  • Tim, if people tell me they’ve changed, and I see that they are married, have kids, are happier than previously, and say they are, the burden of proof rests on those who say they haven’t.

  • That is not evidence of change to heterosexuality. Many people marry the opposite sex and have children due to social/religious pressure. It’s not uncommon for those relationships to end in divorce.

    The only true way of seeing if a person changed sexual orientation is with testable methods, NOT personal testimonies. The “ex-gays” and their proponents have never provided objective evidence of such a change.

  • Once again, genes are not the only biological factors.

    As for identical twins:

    “While the two babies share the same DNA code, there is more to our genetics than just that. During development in the womb and after birth, our surroundings, exposures, and nutrition influence how our genes are expressed and how our bodies and minds develop. For example, two identical twins may have the same genes for height, but if one twin does not receive the same amount of nutrients while in the womb, it may be shorter than the other twin. We know also, that there are some changes to our genes that can happen during the embryonic period or during development. While this rarely happens, it makes it so that one identical twin may have a genetic condition, while the other twin does not.”

  • Even IF (and that’s a big IF) homosexuality was entirely the product of environment and no biological factors had a hand in it, that still wouldn’t explain why sexual-orientation change efforts have been overwhelming failures, and why so many “successes” and former proponents have now denounced them.

  • You should read my comments below. Neither jesus, Freud, nor the FRAUD of ex-gay psychotherapy have EVEr changed anyone from gay to straight, or for that matter, vice versa.

    People keep claimi9ng that they have changed form gay to straight, but no one has veer presented any evidence that it has happened in more than at best a very, very very few individuals. and even that is highly questionable.

    Exodus used to claim that thousands and thousands of people have changed, but they basically now admit that it doesn’t and hasn’t happened. Becoming exgay is easy– I could do it my self is I bought the crap conservative christians are selling. but that doesn’t make me heterosexual. Ask John Paul, John schmid, or alan chambers.

    but if it did happen, where is the parade of thos4e thousands and thousands? The parade hasn’t happened because they don’t exist.

    Because if it did happen, where is the parade of people– not the 40 or 50 who get paid to say so– of those thousands of people hwo have changed?

  • Sorry, it is not medically dangerous. I feel fine. at 64, I am in better shape than most men 20 years younger. I have no bad diseases.

    On the other hand, child birth is medically dangerous.

  • So he’s bisexual.

    I don’t know anyone who was sexually abused and turned gay as a result. I certainly wasn’t.

  • And here is doctor Francis Collins, evangelical Christian and head of the human Genome Project:

    It troubles me greatly to learn that anything I have written would cause anguish for you or others who are seeking answers to the basis of homosexuality. The words quoted by NARTH all come from the Appendix to my book “The Language of God” (pp. 260-263), but have been juxtaposed in a way that suggests a somewhat different conclusion that I intended. I would urge anyone who is concerned about the meaning to refer back to the original text.
    The evidence we have at present strongly supports the proposition that there are hereditary factors in male homosexuality — the observation that an identical twin of a male homosexual has approximately a 20% likelihood of also being gay points to this conclusion, since that is 10 times the population incidence. But the fact that the answer is not 100% also suggests that other factors besides DNA must be involved. That certainly doesn’t imply, however, that those other undefined factors are inherently alterable.
    Your note indicated that your real interest is in the truth. And this is about all that we really know. No one has yet identified an actual gene that contributes to the hereditary component (the reports about a gene on the X chromosome from the 1990s have not held up), but it is likely that such genes will be found in the next few years.

  • people who are making money, serving conservative religious and political agendas, and who are dealing with their own demons by trying to control other people.


  • No, I’m not saying anything of the sort.

    I can tell you this: I have asked this question many times of people who have changed. “Will you swear on the blood of Jesus, or whatever you hold most holy, that you are no longer homosexual and are now completely heterosexual, that you have no homosexual thoughts or desires?”

    I have yet to hear a positive answer to that question.

    Here is something I wrote some time ago to a woman who made statements just like yours. That she couldn’t even use the same name in her multiple postings in multiple places speaks worlds about her ability to tell the truth.


    Elsa, Becky, whomever….

    I’m in the mood to write a little bit. So, here you go. I’m going to assume that you are an intellectually honest person and willing to learn something, and not either the shill for the anti-ex-gay industry that your postings would indicate you to be, or the garden variety bigot with a little education and an axe or two to grind. We’ve seen both.

    You have made the statement that people can change, and they should be allowed to. You have made the statement: “Ben, 1000s of people have left the gay life and are leading a satisfied non-gay life. Thousands of people, through I assume some sort of ex-gay therapy and/or prayer. Is this a fair statement of your truth? I am quoting you.

    Here we come to the first problem. Where are these thousands of people? I have heard people like you say this many times, but they never answer. Why is it that Jones and Yarhouse, certainly plugged into the evangelical and anti-ex-gay worlds as they are, could only find 100 people to participate in their groundbreaking study? Where outside of the anti-ex-gay imagination are these thousands of people? I can assure you if they were available, Exodus would be parading them down Broadway every Sunday. But the only people who seem to show up are earning their livings off of being exgay. The same 50 faces do not a parade make.

    You say that people can change, and that thousands are leading a satisfied non-gay life. These are not even close to being the same thing, now, are they? It is less than ingenuous to say that they are, or to confuse the two.

    If change means only that they are not living a gay life, why then, you really don’t need either prayer or therapy for that. You just cut off all your gay friends, don’t go to gay events, don’t read gay books or see gay movies. Don’t have gay sex. Piece of cake. If you can’t manage that, than you have other problems that are far more serious. But if they still want love-sex-romance with someone of the same gender, even if they are not having it, these people are still gay. Changing behavior does not change sexual orientation, though it might be satisfying.

    So, let us kick it up a notch. Suppose you are someone who desperately wants to change from homosexual to heterosexual. I know of no gay person who has to try to be gay, nor do I know of any straight person who has to try to be straight. So, you may act straight, pretend to be straight, and appear to the world that you are straight because you are trying so goddamned hard to be straight, or at least believe that you are. Straight with issues is the haggard dodge. But if your attractions are still down on their knees in the mensroom at the KwikeeMart, you are not straight. You may still not be having sex, but you haven’t changed from homosexual to heterosexual, you have merely changed from functioning homo to non-functioning homo. If you are really honest, you might admit that you are functioning heterosexually, but it’s a struggle every day. So how straight is that?

    So let us kick it up another notch. You are not trying to be straight, you ARE straight—George Rekers style. You have actually cured people of their sexual problems, through prayer and reparative therapy. You testify in court, if by testify you mean lying, and not the ancient meaning of testify, which is to swear an oath to your liege lord by holding his testicles in your hot little hand. That, I’m pretty sure, George was willing to do.

    You may marry a woman, Ted Haggard style—now there is a man that knows how to pray, and has the whole of the evangelical and exgay world at his beck and call. Yet, despite all his prayer, his resources, and his multiple declarations that he was cured and, I quote, 100% heterosexual, he still isn’t, and he admits it.

    You may condemn homosexuality in the darkest of terms, with Jesus at your side sternly wagging his finger—Eddie Long style, Lonnie Latham style, Catholic priest style, too many dreary pray-to-Jesus others in their own particular styles.

    And every one of these jokers was as straight as straight could be, and prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed, thank Jesus for the straightness of their righteousness, until they were caught in a mensroom, or diddling the choir boy, or cruising for prostitutes, or sin and degradation after distressingly dreary, and not particularly imaginative, degradation.

    So this is the problem with prayer and reparative therapy—they don’t actually seem to work at least so far as we have examined them. So let us look at the last group of people, the ones that are invisible but you nevertheless insist exist by the thousands. (By the way, I do not claim that change isn’t possible. In a world where carpenters can be resurrected, anything is possible. But they seem to be available only by special order on certain days. One cannot find them wholesale).

    Jones and Yarhouse have already studied these people, and found that change occurred for only 13% of their 100 subjects, and that it was difficult, ambiguous, and complicated. THESE WERE THE AUTHJOR’S WORDS, NOT MINE. In other words, they didn’t change. Neither Jesus nor Freud changed them.

    But I’m going to propose a super study. It will be open to anyone who has taken any formal action or program to pray or therapay away the gay in any way, to change from gay to straight, by means of some faith-based program.

    The study will be simple, and consist of three questions and a simple lab test.

    1) Were you or are you homosexual in thought, word, and deed? (Gotta have a baseline, and I want to see those thousands).

    2) By means of the program you joined, were you, or are you now, able to change yourself from homosexual to completely heterosexual, no backsliding, no gay thoughts, words, or deeds, only heterosexual ones? (Because if any of those things are happening, you haven’t changed. Wanting to change, trying to change, thinking about changing—those things are not changing.)

    3) For those who have changed from homosexual to heterosexual, one last question. “Are you willing swear on peril of losing your immortal soul, by your faith in Jesus Christ, by all that you hold holy and true, that you no longer have any homosexual desire, that you are completely heterosexual in thought, word, and deed. Because if any of those things are happening…

    4) And finally, because I’m a cynic, for those who are able to swear, at least for the men, one of those weenie-excitement-thingamajigs just to double check, at least the men. I don’t now what you do for women.

    When I see that study done, then I will believe change is possible.

  • google alan chambers, head of exodus, the leading change ministry.

    he admits that he is as gay as he ever was, but meets your criteria. he also says that no one changes, he has never met anyone who has changed.

    Ted Haggard, John Paulk, and john schmid are just a few more.

  • Francis Collins, evangelical Christian and head of the human genome project:

    It troubles me greatly to learn that anything I have written would cause anguish for you or others who are seeking answers to the basis of homosexuality. The words quoted by NARTH all come from the Appendix to my book “The Language of God” (pp. 260-263), but have been juxtaposed in a way that suggests a somewhat different conclusion that I intended. I would urge anyone who is concerned about the meaning to refer back to the original text.
    The evidence we have at present strongly supports the proposition that there are hereditary factors in male homosexuality — the observation that an identical twin of a male homosexual has approximately a 20% likelihood of also being gay points to this conclusion, since that is 10 times the population incidence. But the fact that the answer is not 100% also suggests that other factors besides DNA must be involved. That certainly doesn’t imply, however, that those other undefined factors are inherently alterable.
    Your note indicated that your real interest is in the truth. And this is about all that we really know. No one has yet identified an actual gene that contributes to the hereditary component (the reports about a gene on the X chromosome from the 1990s have not held up), but it is likely that such genes will be found in the next few years.

  • Adctually, as Francis Collins has stated explicitly, it most emphatically did not.

    “The evidence we have at present strongly supports the proposition that there are hereditary factors in male homosexuality — the observation that an identical twin of a male homosexual has approximately a 20% likelihood of also being gay points to this conclusion, since that is 10 times the population incidence. But the fact that the answer is not 100% also suggests that other factors besides DNA must be involved. That certainly doesn’t imply, however, that those other undefined factors are inherently alterable.

  • Yep, even with inconsistencies and contradictions (not that I agree that there are any), omissions (inevitable with 4 different authors) and later additions (there are two which have been universally acknowledged from the beginning). Not to mention that we have the execution of the person in question verified by the Roman historian Tacitus, as well as His followers not only existing but being executed by the Roman authorities only about 30 years after His death.

    No doubt the Man existed. Whether you find His claims as recorded in the gospels credible is your own affair.

  • Thanks, Jack. What I was replying to was Tim’s assertion that child molestation can not be a cause of same-sex orientation because not all molested children turn out gay–but my comments keep showing up in the wrong places.

  • “And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?”
    -2 Cor 6:15

    The minute the church goes into consensus process, God’s authority is abandoned for the sake of relationship — or “getting along” — with the world. Consensus process is a marxist process. A diverse group of people dialoguing to consensus over a social issue in a facilitated meeting is a SOVIET council form of government! The church cannot dialogue God’s word. Dialogue is what the devil did with Eve in the Garden. The process moves God’s people away from His commandments. God’s word can only be preached and teached. When Jesus was tempted, he said “It is written… it is written… it is written….” How does the remnant keep the sodomite agenda out of the church? Don’t go into the process! It’s not Bible!

  • You say is that gays can overcome their same-sex attractions because “God’s power is not limited.” That’s different from saying “Reparative Therapy works.” It’s saying “God can work miracles.” Few people posting on this site would deny that.

    You wouldn’t say that cancer can be cured by a vegan diet because “God’s power is not limited.” That’s an affirmation of God’s power, not of a particular therapeutic cure.

  • What do you mean by “objective, testable proof”? There are many people who have made dramatic changes from “gay,” and have developed significant opposite-sex attractions. Dennis Jernigan is one; after a long time living a “gay” life, he now has a wife and several children–that is objective, testable proof!

  • All of which being quoted and interpreted by theologians and religious studies “experts” with a specific goal in reinforcing religious dogma. There is no such thing as objectively convincing evidence in religious studies. Just people with a delusional level of confidence in their own beliefs.

    So Shawnie how difficult is it for you to figure out that Koites and Coitus are the same thing? The sole difference being one is Greek the other Latin. Two languages and cultures which were somewhat intertwined back in the day.

  • Ben, I’ve read people who’ve posted on boards like this one who say they’ve changed, have spouses and kids with them, and have a desire for them alone.

    Who are you, and who am I, to doubt them?

    Human sexuality is, if nothing else, quite complex. I would say that part of the complexity comes from a fallen world, but whatever the reason, the result is what it is.

  • If you’re locked into an ideological position that says that people are born gay, irrespective of scientific evidence to the contrary (ie identical twin studies), then no bit of evidence that a person has changed from gay to straight will satisfy you, Ben. If a person has changed, you will claim he or she is really bisexual.

    The more honest approach, given the science, is to assume that if someone claims to have changed, has since gotten married to an opposite-gender partner, and says he or she is in love with the partner, that person is telling the truth and has changed. If it looks, walks, acts, and quacks like a duck, chances are it’s a duck.

  • Poor analogy, Tim, especially when the people who say that therapy helped them are now married to an opposite-gender partner and have kids. Unless you’re locked into the unscientific notion that homosexuality is genetically determined (as opposed to a complex blend of genetic predisposition and environmental influences, as identical twin studies suggest), long-term sexual and emotional commitment to and reported love of an opposite-gender partner is fairly persuasive evidence — not perfect evidence, but significant nonetheless, and consistent with a claim of change.

  • Ex-evangelicals….in the same way that a vegan who now eats meat cannot still be a vegan, based on the established meaning of vegan.

  • I don’t disagree at all with Collins, whose analysis is, unsurprisingly, quite level-headed. Reread it, and this time do it more carefully. While he is saying that non-genetic factors may include changes in the womb before birth, he says that this “rarely happens.”

    The bottom line is that the notion that homosexuality is genetically determined is as scientifically problematic as it ever was.

  • Shawnie is correct. There is nothing in ancient Jewish or Christian extra-biblical texts that even hints at a view on homosexuality other than the traditional one, which deems its practice a sin. Moreover, the Jews were noted in ancient times for that view, because it stood out so prominently from the views of surrounding nations and societies.

  • The people who have been helped by it obviously take it very seriously, Larry, but of course, if you had your way, they would just go away.

  • You have a very odd way of defining civilization, Ben Janken. What defines civilizations are the kinds of rules and norms that don’t exist in what the Enlightenment philosophers called “the state of nature.”

  • Bob N, reparative therapy is simply a type of psychotherapy meant to change people who wish to be changed from gay to straight. Like all therapies, it is open to being validated or debunked, or a combination of the two.

    To call it “religious right” would be like calling Sigmund Freud “religious right” for his belief that homosexuality was a psychological illness.

    It is your side which is politicizes the issue by trying through the political system to force the rest of society to alter its cultural and moral views on the subject.

  • So according to Ellen’s logic, such that it is, the ancient, medieval, and modern Orthodox Jews are a bunch of legalistic idiots who for the past 30 centuries have been misinterpreting their own Bible, as have their Christian counterparts for the past 20 centuries….whereas Ellen and her Birkenstock friends with a political agenda have suddenly gotten it right?

    That is about as likely as a blizzard at the Equator.

  • When is your atheism going to change a human heart?

    The challenge of the 19th century evangelist, Dwight L. Moody, remains as relevant today as back then:

    He once told an atheist heckler to bring even one person to the next day’s meeting whose lives were transformed for the better by atheism, whereas, he, Moody, would bring 100 people whose lives were transformed by belief in Jesus. And by transformed, Moody meant the conquest of drunkenness, violence, criminal behavior, family abandonment and the like — easily observable vices.

  • If you believe, contrary to science, that homosexual behavior is genetically determined, then of course you will retrospectively say that a person who changed was really bisexual all along. But that conclusion is not scientific — it’s simply your conclusion derived from your false, scientifically refuted premise.

  • CarrotCakeMan, even if that’s true, it does nothing to refute their contentions about homosexual behavior. It’s a classic ad hominem logical fallacy you’ve fallen into….And ad hominem arguments are worthless.

  • It may be guilt and knowing what they are doing is wrong that drives them to suicide. Of course some people try to blame everything on others.

  • Well, Tim, of your 5 paragraphs, none are free from major errors. Second most glaring is “there will always be gay babies”. Did you mean “homosexual babies”? If so, that’s as impossible as “atheist babies”, Would you call a puppy that, as it first starts to become sexually mature, tries to mount a grown, male dog a “homosexual”? Well, the adult, male dog will bite the young, confused puppy, and the puppy learns real fast. That puppy may go on to father many puppies as nature intended. Yet you, in your infinite defense of the unnatural, would have labeled and separated the puppy into a hideous existence. And shot the adult male for biting.

  • Third and 4th rather sloppy errors are in your 1st paragraph; “in biblical days, people lived in caves and ate rats for dinner. They didn’t know the earth was round.” Wrong, and wrong. Sure – there are some cave dwellers – even today. And, at least after Moses, I doubt rats were Kosher. But stop spreading the atheist belief that the Bible taught a flat earth just because some Roman church leaders got it wrong. A round earth is mentioned (sphere, or circle, and “He hangs the Earth upon nothing”) in the oldest book. From Job, Isaiah, and Proverbs it is clear that the later, Roman view of a square, flat earth was NOT biblical. Eratosthenes of Alexandria (circa 276 to 194 or 192 B.C.) calculated the circumference of the earth “within 50 miles of the present estimate.” [Encyclopedia Britannica]. If all the symbolism in the book of Revelations were taken as literal, you’d miss the whole meaning of the book. The 4 corners of the Earth clearly refer to the 4 compass positions. Have you ever said “the sun is rising”? Every meteorologist I’ve heard still refers to certain times of day as “sunrise” and “sunset”. We still use terms according to the appearance to us. To label the Bible as inaccurate for speaking in terms people understand is deception.

  • Tim – Say what?! “Modern science is coming closer and closer to proving that homosexuality has a genetic component.” So you’re admitting that with all the modern scientific advances and wasted government grant funding going to homosexuals, they still can’t find a genetic component. To say they’re “closer” is like saying an alchemist is closer to making gold out of iron. Except the homosexual alchemist would get government funding.

  • My last comment on your post is about this statement: “I’m a Christian …”. As an old advertisement use to say “Only your hairdresser knows for sure”. From your comments, it’s hard to believe you know what a Christian is. You clearly state you don’t believe the Bible to be the word of God. You don’t believe actions God called sins are wrong. So if a Christian isn’t a believer in, and follower of, Jesus the Christ, whom we’ve accepted as not just Savior, but Lord of our lives, then just what do you call a Christian? And how does that fit you?

  • thats what Dr Mengele would say if you dont know him, look up that monster

    BTW the culture war is all but over re gmarrying Under civil law and re the 1st amendment to the constitution you absolute ly cannot force a church to do any ceremony to which they object. they can also throw you off their property for any reason or none at all. Its their house just like your house

    while I commend the so. baptists for their calling out rep therapy as dangerous etc, the battle now is beginning to rage about equal rights for trangender people

  • WE cand o without all the religious balony. the point is that this fix the gays is refuted by every major psych and medical group except a tiny 200 member pediatric group vs the american academy of pediatrics with about 60,000 members

    What they can do is turn people into pathological liars about their own sexuality by threats of hell and promises of “heaven” and displace the self hatred onto other things, eg two of the victims of this QUACKERY / CHILD ABUSE told me that “gays support the westboro baptists because it brings them sympathy”

    For the younger generation, the suicide rate within a year, based on two “classes of 12 youth total, 5 omitted suicide within a year

    Time that we hold the fixers accountable for mass manslaughter

  • no you are just brainwashed from an age where you didn’t have the life experiences and guts to say BS about the whole deomonization thing re eg gays.

    which is what it also is -demonization by claiming to fix gays, they can put up their BS that its not normal> Lies intersecting with other lies.

  • thats religion, we dont believe in it

    btw the demonization of gays creates self hatred which leads to unsafe sex. Stop trying to blame the victim by supporting the victimizers

    this crap will soon be gone and the sooner the better. Think of all the people who made lots of money selling used food while driving kids to suicide

  • Event though most of us know this is a fraudlent business – fixing gays, the modern equtivalent of BLOODLETTING, there are some people in the middle, eg about 2 dozen people showed up at 2014 DC pride last year with “bisexual” T shirts Yes its probably easy to get them to say they are cured, go home and of course hump with their same sex partner

  • Your entitled to your MYTHeology but not to force it on others with dangerous consequences.

    Relgion can get people do beleive crazy things are correct Eg the perps of 9-11 thought they would go to heaven and get either 4 or 72 virgins to deflower

    time the bad people behind this fake psych biz be put out of business once and for all.

  • More and more all I see here from the supporters of this child abuse iis they are finding their beliefs challenged – as they ought to be, and their incomes as well

    Lots of the born agains Just anotherr minor variant of the southen baptists who thought they were right re enslaving africans (thought to be only about 60% human) and then replaced slavery with terror based segregation and the KKK

    good nite to all.

  • Bigot – from the german, by god

    hate in the name of god

    I thought god waS about love of all his creations

    as for fixsing gays, at a conference on it in 2011 in baltimore, two teens who had been thru what is simply child abuse spoke

    out of 12 youth who went through this therapy, 5 committed suicide within a year – mass manslaughter – time we hold people who cause this sort of horror to account in criminal court

  • so do as many women fro sucide who have sex unprotected male partners see the CDC website

    BTW with new anti viral drugs most live a normal lifespan and if we can extend these drugs to other diseases it will be a great move forward

    there is absolutey no cure for any virus. including the common cold btw

    teh only thing we can do is enhance the immune system

  • all they do is turn people into pathological liars about their sexuality and displace the self hatred in another direction, eg (think of this one) “matthew shepards parents should have fixed him’

    yes its his parents fault he was murdered. Totally insane but the power of religion is often insane

    the foundation of the holocaust was the blaming of Jews for Jesus death

    the christian crusades killed millions of muslims in the middle east in an effort to convert them to xtianity

    so they createdd their own nut cases eg 9-11

  • what is your business – turning people into pathological liars re their sexuality

    Jebus freaks abound

    BTW in western europe, England wales Scotland, Belgium Holland, France Spain Portugal, Slovenia , Luxemburg the 5 Nordic nations allow gays to marry. (Iceland Finland Denmark Norway Sweden

    westfern hemisphere – canada – 37USA states and counting, Brazil,
    mexico,Agentina Ururguay columbia allow gays to marry under civil llaw

    civil unions that usually turn into marriage -Chile, pat of Venezuela, almost all of central europe add in south africa and NZ with marriage

    want to live in a place where gays are vilified etc, go to Pukins commie russia

  • keep up the hate doc, your all over the web/ Probably a doctor of divinity whose forebears kept slaves per the bible

    or is this a new name for the westboro baptist crazies

    BTW add Dc to the list and oregon almost certainly banning this bull crap that has about a 30-40% suicide rate am mong gay teens

    All these creeps do is terrorize kids with threats of hell, drive them deeper and deeper into a closet of self hatred and shame while creating all kinds of horror beliefs, eg

    gays support the westboro baptists because it brings them sympathy

    Matthew shepards parent should have fixed him (Insane)

    what these programs do is feed many millions to the haters

  • one particular genetic link, if two twins, one is gay, 50% chance the other is gay

    BTW its not genes per se, its the EXPRESSION of the gene, eg its effectiveness, just as one gene controls all skin colors and mixes of races

    poor religious ranters going nuts as scotus will soon make gays marryiing under civil law legal nationally

    as for god youre entitled to spout your mytheology and bbible that jsutified slavery as per the bible and formed the hatred of the Jews that led to the holocaust

  • SALVATION the bs word that separates money from the fools to fund these right wing loonies

    when your dead your dead One story about one mam, who supposedly came back from the dead 2000 years ago, recorded by scribes who worked for the church and needed their “paycheck”

    to say nothing of all the rewrites etc

  • sin is a religious word most of us rejected religion long ago as hated filled, sex controlling, using women as baby factories etc
    the same freaks who claimed that salvery and segregation is per their stinking bible, which also formed the hatreded that led to the holocaust of

    6iklllion jews, 100,000 gypsies, both semites, techniaally not white

    the christian nutjob who ran germany also murdered the 26000 blacks in germany 200,000 gays and millions of soviet prisoners

    the churches supported him

    too bad but your meal tickets based on hate and the childabuse of fixing gays is ending

  • “Modern [politically-driven] science” is so politicized and paganized it has become quackery. “Science falsely so-called”.

    There are genetic anomalies and abnormalities by the multitude, thanks to entropy, but almost all of them are called “genetic disease”.

    When psychology physiology, you can’t call that a positive.

    The devil hates children, population, souls that can have a chance at heaven.

    (From Thessalonians) We know that God sends strong delusion to those who “receive not the love of the truth”. But…

    Jesus Christ is the door to life, salvation, heaven, and frees us from sin, guilt, death, and hell.

    “We can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.” Because “the love of Christ constraineth me”.

  • Russel Moore makes some fantastic points about reparative therapy at this conference. Not only has he denounced the treatment, but many others at this conference denounced it as well. Stating not only how reparative therapy was damaging, but also what the Bible says about homosexuality.

    Moore believes that reparative therapy has been “counterproductive”. This comment is interesting because they are backed up by many examples about how damaging the therapy can be. The most prominent is the suicide of Leelah Alcorn who died only a couple of months after this, citing reparative therapy as the main source of her psychological problems.

    Russel Moore has made interesting statements regarding reparative therapy. Using his position to show how important it is to rethink reparative therapy. While it is known how bad the effects of reparative therapy are, it will still require more study and research to know just how far reaching and damaging the effects of the therapy can be.

  • a step in the right direction, about 30-40% of kids subjected to this murderout therabpy commit suicide

    celibacy – it hasnt worked out very well for the church of the endless hidden molestation of children – rome

    you already have your own problems – heads in the sand create molesters

  • biblical etc if you believe in a book written 4000 years ago by men drunk on wine and whose Only skill is goat hearding I will pray for you to go see a shrink

  • Ive met 3 gays, all of whom said matthew shepards parents should have fixed him

    this is KKKrazy – all fix does is make them hate themselfves more, then put that self hate on somone else who cant defendthemseve

  • the only reason they believe is that it is stuffed down their throats before they have the life experiences and guts to say BULLDROPPINGS

  • garbage about 50% of ident twins where one is gay, the other is gay also

    there is a genetici component but the genetics have what is called “expression” EG how much the genetics take charge

  • so we are supposed to believe the other 6- 7 bilion non xtiains are going to hell?

    total proof of lies or the non existrance of your flying spgahetti monster