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The ‘Splainer: What’s an Apostolic Christian and why is Kim Davis’ h …

RNS-SPLAINER-LOGObthumbThe ‘Splainer (as in, “You’ve got some ‘splaining to do”) is an occasional feature in which RNS gives you everything you need to know about current events to help you hold your own at a cocktail party.

(RNS) Kim Davis, the Rowan County, Ky., clerk jailed for five days for refusing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, identifies as an Apostolic Christian and attends Solid Rock Apostolic Church in Morehead, Ky.

But what’s an “Apostolic Christian” and why does the group object to same-sex marriage? Let us ‘Splain:

Q: Who are Apostolic Christians?

A: The term could refer to any one of a few different groups, including the Apostolic Christian Church or the Apostolic Pentecostal movement, also known as Oneness Pentecostalism. Solid Rock’s website was down Wednesday (Sept. 9) and a busy signal greeted anyone trying to reach the church. But it is listed on a worldwide directory of Apostolic Pentecostal churches and ministries.

Q: What is Apostolic Pentecostalism, and what do Apostolic Pentecostals believe?

A: Pentecostalism is a Christian movement that emphasizes a personal experience of God, including the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. The movement grew out of the 1906 Azusa Street Revival in California and takes its name from Pentecost, when early Christians first received the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as the ability to heal and prophesy.

Apostolic Pentecostals then split from the rest of the movement in 1916 over a disagreement about the nature of the Trinity.

Without getting too complicated, Apostolic Pentecostals believe “Father,” “Son” and “Holy Spirit” aren’t three distinct persons, but three different titles for one person: Jesus.

The group also believes you must speak in tongues to be saved, a practice known as glossolalia, which involves uttering a foreign language previously unknown to the speaker.

Vinson Synan, a professor of church history at Regent University in Virginia and an expert on Pentecostalism, estimates there are 15 to 20 million Pentecostals in the United States; of those, maybe 1 million are Apostolic Pentecostals. Apostolic Pentecostals claim to have a total 25 million members worldwide, he said.

READ: Embattled Ky. county clerk delays return to work

Q: What does the “apostolic” in “Apostolic Pentecostal” mean?

A: “Apostolic” refers to the apostles, the earliest followers of Jesus who were sent out to spread the Christian faith. In this case, it comes from Apostolic Pentecostals’ beliefs about baptism. Apostolic Pentecostals baptize believers in the name of Jesus. Other Christians baptize newly converted Christians in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Q: Isn’t this just splitting hairs?

A: All this quibbling about whether the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons or three titles for one person and which ones Christians name-check when they baptize new believers sounds pretty minor, right? But it’s kind of a big deal. The doctrine of the Trinity, Synan said, “goes to the very heart of the Bible and the Christian Gospel — the very idea of the Godhead.”

Q: OK, well, what’s with the long hair and skirts?

A: Apostolic Pentecostals are the strictest of all the Pentecostal groups, according to Synan. Like most Pentecostals, they do not use alcohol or tobacco. They generally don’t watch TV or movies either. Women who are Apostolic Pentecostals also wear long dresses, and they don’t cut their hair or wear makeup. It’s called “external holiness,” he said, and it’s meant to separate its followers from the rest of the world in the way they look and act — although, he noted, men who are Apostolic Pentecostals look “like everybody else.”

Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis leaves the federal courthouse on Sept. 3, 2015, in Ashland, Ky., in handcuffs with a shirt wrapped around her wrists. Photo courtesy of USA Today

Rowan County, Ky., Clerk Kim Davis leaves the federal courthouse on Sept. 3, 2015, in Ashland, Ky., in handcuffs with a shirt wrapped around her wrists. Photo courtesy of USA Today

READ: Coloring books for grown-ups: Calming — but a spiritual practice?

Q: So what does all this have to do with same-sex marriage and Kim Davis?

A: The general superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church International, the largest and most influential Apostolic Pentecostal denomination, issued a statement earlier this year in response to the Supreme Court decision recognizing same-sex marriages. In his statement, he defines God’s plan for marriage as “the union of one man and one woman who make a lifelong commitment,” and encourages Christians to “defend the freedoms of speech, press, association, and religion.”

In a statement released Sept. 1, Davis affirmed that definition as “a central teaching of Scripture and of Jesus Himself regarding marriage.”


About the author

Emily McFarlan Miller

Emily McFarlan Miller is a national reporter for RNS based in Chicago. She covers evangelical and mainline Protestant Christianity.


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  • So Kim Davis, the right-wing, Christian hero is actually a heretic who rejects a fundamental belief of the Christian faith (the Trinity?)

  • The General superintendent said In his statement, he defines God’s plan for marriage as “the union of one man and one woman who make a lifelong commitment,” What did he have to say about Kim Davis, who is on her fourth marriage?

    In my experience f the Pentecostal movement, it is full of hypocrites, who like there own version of Matthew 7 v 12 which is “Do as I say, not as I do” I spent from 1975 (My birth year) to 2000 in the Pentecostal Church, and hated every bit of it, but stayed out of a sense of duty to my parents and grandparents. I was made to feel dirty and unworthy of the love of Jesus because I am gay. Got to the point of serious contemplating ending everything. I changed churches and so glad I did, or I wouldn’t be here to type this. The Church regardless of denomination has done a lot of damage to peoples lives. The “Church” needs to repent not just individuals.

  • Um, there is a blatant falsehood in this article. It states: ” …a practice known as glossolalia, which involves uttering a foreign language previously unknown to the speaker.”

    No. Glossalalia is the uttering of sounds that do not make up a language. Studies on glossalalia over the years have confirmed again and again that is it just made-up gibberish, like an improv comedian might use, and not a language.

    The fact that a reporter could tell such a lie openly is another example of Christian privilege, where telling a myth that supports Christianity is considered normal, while if we did the same for unprivileged religions, we’d be quickly called on it.

    Imagine if I reported here that “Wiccans are able to control the behavior of the targets of their spells through magic.”. I’d be (rightly) laughed out of town. But do the same thing for Christians, and it’s A-OK. If Emily were a good reporter, she’d correct it.

    I hope to see a day free of Christian privilege.

  • This brief article correctly identifies Kim Davis as an Apostolic Pentecostal, but the headline refers to “Apostolic Christian,” a phrase generally denoting another sect entirely. Apostolic Pentecostals believe among other things that only those who speak in tongues are true Christians, or among the saved. Their withdrawal from the world resembles the less strict among the Amish, but their beliefs are far more radical and less orthodox. Moreover their distrust of government is European rather than American, derived from experience with governments trying to force all subjects to join an established church, whether Catholic or Protestant.

  • “…it’s meant to separate its followers from the rest of the world in the way they look and act…”

    She looks like a cat-lady/hoarder, so…mission accomplished.

  • To clarify. The Father sent the Son. Jesus died on the cross to reconcile us to God the Father. Jesus ascended back to heaven and is sitting at the right hand of God. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. Jesus prayed to the Father, not to Himself. Jesus always referred to Himself as the Son of God, or the Son of man, never as the Father. After His work was completed here He sent us the Holy Spirit. This is not only taught in the NT or New Covenant but also in the Old. Gen 3: “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our Likeness.” The first 3 verses of the Bible (Genesis) refer to God (the Father), The Word (Jesus). “..and God said”. And The Holy Spirit. “..and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the deep.” PTL Jesus is the Son of God (God the Son) who is our bridge to God the Father. Receive Him as Savior and Lord. Turn away from sin and abide in Him through His Word and The blessed Holy Spirit. God Bless

  • That all happened long before Kim received the Baptism of the Holy ghost and got saved. Even Paul had a conversion so please lay off and give her that much!

  • Fundamental belief of the Catholic church actually. Check your history. oneness Pentecostals believe that one GOD fulfilled himself in three offices. Father as creator, Son as redeemer and Holy Ghost as regenerator, God is not made up of three distinct separate personalities as the catholic church would teach. There is only one GOD and his name is one.

  • Yes, God, Who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, revealed Himself through the Son, the Word.: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Doesn’t get much easier than that. So we can readily see why our Lord gave us a Church, one that has been here since the beginning, built upon the first bishops of the Church, the Apostles. As Ignatius of Antioch would write, in 106 AD, “See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 8).

  • as a child I studied yoga with my mom.. Later I studied Korean a d chines martial arts styles which lead me to read about it history which is Buddhism.
    As I matured as a family man, I still practiced with my children and taught some of what I learned in life to them such as the meditation and martial arts.
    We went to an apostolic Pentecostal church for a few years.
    What I noticed mostly was the church members lacked confidence In their judgement about life and living.
    They are really good people who just want to help people and live a quiet life.
    To them being a radical such as Ms. Davis is doing nothing more than to bring shame and disgrace to the church because her actions excluded those she disagreed with. The very same people that might change their life as they mature.
    Buddhist teachings say as I paraphrase, you live your life to help yourself and help those in need. Don’t be offensive to others show compassion. They will need to travel their life’s path on their own as…

  • Funny how that physician has never healed any of them, ever, and does not do a thing for anyone today.

    If you disagree, present the evidence. If you can’t, retract your claims.

  • Greg1, the whole Jesus Christ story that you keep trying to sell here, the foundation of your crazy Christian superstitions, is a steaming pile of nonsense out of the gate. How is it again that an omnipotent being couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers?

    It’s also worth asking why such a claimed benevolent, wonderfully kind, “god” has to put us through thousands of years of anxious waiting before “saving” us from a life that he supposedly created. The Christian beliefs are just plain ridiculous, and wrong.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.

  • Many years ago I attended a very conservative Independent Methodist church (really following more Baptist Tradition). There was an elderly, earnest, devoted woman that struggled with the gift of tongues. Her family were very deep in the Pentecostal movement. She was so disturbed that she could not speak in tongues. She was a very moral, kind woman. She struggled every day with not having the “Gift”. She questioned her family, why do I not speak in tongues? They told her that they could and would teach her how to do so. She immediately scorned them. “If i have to be taught, then it is not a gift.”
    If there is truly a heaven, she is there.

  • Well, let’s see.

    A certain class of so called Christian hates gay people, but they call it love.

    Sharia believing Muslims also hate gays, but they don’t bother to call it love.

    Ergo, a certain class of so called Christians and sharia supporting Muslims are besties.


    Why am in not in the slightest bit surprised?

  • An old Arab saying.

    People like us need to stick together.
    We know what Sharia Law really means.
    We know God’s word must belong to believer and unbeliever alike.
    We know God’s law to be supreme over all men,

    Glad to call you a friend Greg1!

  • Actually you should check your theology and ecclesiastical history. Every single major Christian Church — Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, and Baptist — that traces its roots to the historic church has held the Trinity as a basic and fundamental belief. That is why it is in the creeds (that all of those churches share — Apostles’ and Nicene.) The Oneness wordplay doesn’t count as subscribing to the belief. The point here is that Evangelical’s supporting Kim Davis are opportunistic hypocrites that actually betray their Christian beliefs.

  • The author didn’t lie. He was giving the Pentecostal understanding of speaking in tongues, i.e., speaking a language unknown to the speaker. You are correct: glossolalia is just sounds and syllables and gibberish, but to Pentecostals, it is a real ‘language’. In the early days of the Pentecostal movement, there were reports of missionaries who took off to other countries expecting the Holy Spirit to give them the words to preach in whatever language was spoken by the people wherever they went. Sadly, their belief did not hold true, and they utterly failed.

  • God loves the sinner but HATES the sin. The sinner makes the decision to go to hell or to Heaven not God!!! No one said she hated guys, but we don’t have to love their sin that God hates. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of sodomy and all the wickedness. America isn’t above the same punishment.

  • “Three ‘offices'”? LOL, first time I’ve heard it called that. I get it, kind of like the Master of the Lodge, Senior Warden, and Junior Warden, huh?

  • Exactly, thank you. A friend of mine says, “I’m a Buddhist, just like Jesus Christ was.” If one studies one can see that’s not just a joke. Christ is exploited by those who seek power and control over others. The Glossolalia movement is nothing more than a cheap parlor trick to fool the gullible.

  • But people hate the sinner because they sin. And of course all sins are treated exactly the same. Taking the Lord’s name in vain is just like theft and rape. Being an agnostic is tantamount to being a rapist and mass murderer.

    You love people that is why they must be physically harmed, discriminated against, ostracized, driven to suicide, and denigrated if they sin in ways you don’t like.

  • Bob, you are caught up in a whirlwind of schizophrenia; tell yourself to STOP, turn head left, turn head right, then look straight ahead. Try to focus on the point in the corner, then collect your thoughts. You speak, your lips move, but the same thing just keeps coming out. Now, Please, tell me scientifically, how the Big Bang occurred.

  • George Nixon..

    “Christ is exploited by those who seek power and control…”

    Because religion was invented for that purpose alone.
    “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to _____________ !”
    The Bible supports whatever you fill in that blank.

    All Holy texts work the same way. Baghavat Gita, Book of the Dead, Q’uran:
    “In the name of __(any god)__ I command you to _________ !”

    “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.”
    – John Adams,
    One of the 7 Founders of the United States

  • Greg1, tests against placebos show no healing caused by any religious hocus pocus such as you presented.

    Get a brain and get past that silliness already. You waste time and opportunity on something that simply doesn’t work, plus you are trying to spread falsehoods. Please stop. Healing is best done by qualified medical professionals, not religious quackery.

  • Greg1, Bob is correct about your religious quackery. How the big bang happened is irrelevant to his excellent points and description, which, by the way, you have provided no valid rebuttal or answers to.

  • “Now, Please, tell me scientifically, how the Big Bang occurred”
    Dear Greg1

    This is a question at the edge of physics. When it is answered, the boundaries of physics will be larger, and there will probably be more questions.

    You really can trust physics not to do you dirt, ever.

    In science, it is OK to say “I don’t know”.

  • I…must be obedient to…the Word of God.” Ms. Davis once wrote.

    Then why isn’t she obedient to Romans 13:1-5?

    1. Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

    2. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.

    3. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you.

    4. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong.

    5. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.

  • Focusing on, and arguing about doctrines like the Trinity and Virgin birth are distractions. The doctrine of an eternal hell is a blasphemy.
    Christianity is about Love. That’s ALL. Charity, compassion, kindness, forgiveness, empathy, or whatever facet of that diamond within called “Love” you want to polish, it’s the only thing that matters. A lifetime isn’t long enough to perfect it, but we can (at least) try.

    The Gospel in one sentence: We’re all self-serving jackasses, but God loves us anyway.

  • Leave it to lefties to be tolerant of what is morally intolerable, such as murderous dictators like Fidel or cop killers like Mumia, while being intolerant of the length of a woman’s hair or other superficial things which have no bearing on anything.

  • No, it would not be said “three offices” but rather three different manifestations or Personifications (but NOT person) which the one God reveals Himself unto mankind in the Scriptures.

  • Cranmer, Apostolic Christians, the ones we are talking about in Kim Davis’ case, try to go back as far as they can, to base their faith and practices, as were set forth in the early church at the time of the Apostles. The doctrine of the Trinity is a later historical development as well as other doctrines and the creeds. If Apostolic Christians are heretics, then maybe so were those who belonged to the early church. Maybe this is a point you would like to consider.

  • Peter, Yes the Church is full of hypocrites and sinners. It is a place for the sick of this world to go and get well. Homosexuality is not the only sin and as you know, there are many. The focus of repentance should not be directed toward any one sin but towards all sins. Also, if you make an exception for one sin then should you make an exception for all? People who are sinners in the Church need Grace to grow in a life of faith and the good Lord will go with them for as far as they want to go. If such people are not growing in a life of faith, through the grace of the Lord, but are the same as when they came to the Church, lets say 20 years ago, then there is a problem! All the best!

  • I replied to your first comment before concerning the Trinity and a few other things. As far as Evangelical’s being “opportunistic hypocrites”, I don’t think so. You’ve heard the saying, Cranmer, that “politics makes strange bedfellows.” Well, both Evangelicals and Apostolic Christians see what is happening in this country and maybe they don’t agree in doctrine, but maybe if they don’t hang together (at least on some issues) then they will all hang separately. Right now it’s gay marriage. What’s next? Maybe plural marriage? Child marriage? I’m sure that some Mormons and Muslims will come forth to claim their “rights” All I can say, Sir, is get ready, get set, there is more to come…

  • Mark, since the article was about Apostolic Pentecostal beliefs, let me say that “Apostolics” do not believe in a divided Godhead. God is ONE in being and majesty. He does not have associates. God is Spirit and Father of all creation. He created all things by His Word (which is God projecting Himself) and in the fullness of time (not eternity) his Word became flesh in the visible image of our Lord Jesus Christ, “who was the Lamb(Son) of God according to the flesh and very God Himself according to the Spirit. So that in Christ the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily. When Christ prayed, He prayed as a man to God in Heaven and in Himself. God does not pray to God. But in Christ His Humanity interacted with His Divinity. There is more. I cannot write a book here. But between what you said and what I have said, now that you know, which would you rather believe?

  • Apostolic Christians believe in the Oneness of God Who has revealed Himself to be Father in Creation, Son of God/man in Redemption in the visible image of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit in the regeneration and life of His Church.
    We believe in the baptism by total immersion in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the baptism of the Holy Ghost by speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. We believe in A Holy Spirit filled life and in a “Holiness Standard.” Yes, Kim Davis, is a lady with a past, and just like the rest of us she has to work out (Not work for) her salvation with fear and trembling. The good Lord receives all sinners who turn to Him. She has the right to take a stand for her beliefs just as all of you are doing for yours in response to this article. Yes there is the law. And yes she should do her job. But didn’t activists for civil rights and women’s sufferage break a lot of laws down the road to get to where they wanted to go? You tell me!

  • I have a question about the ‘hate’ motif: If an abomination in the bible is defined as ‘intense hatred of God for that act’ at which a man lying with a man or a woman lying with a woman is called an abomination in the Old testament and called intense defilement in perversion in the New Testament (Romans 1), and God hates the sin but loves all sinners; why is that Christians are not allowed to do the same? And if christians resist something that God hates and penalizes people for, then really, isn’t’ THAT Love–Agape love translates as only doing things that is best for a person ike: ‘tough love’……. I do get we have to ‘pick and choose our battles’, but I believe God is right in the middle of this issue, his word condemns this behaviour, and so should his followers, condemning the act, but hoping the person will see God’s law and win over the delusion that was set upon them. That is God’s love and grace; accepting the behaviour is not love.

  • Yes! I’m an apostolic and have been told many times my doctrine is heresy because we don’t follow the traditional historical doctrine of the church; and I’m thinking “what are you talking about!”, we are following everything the apostles put forth in the first churches started by them as remanded by Jesus— Later the understanding of the Godhead was changed (for political reasons) and the mode of Baptism was changed–the apostles received the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues, and they Baptised in the Name—not in the titles. Acts 2:38 salvation plan morphed somehow into ‘accepting the Lord as your saviour’ –you can’t find that anywhere in scripture as having been done for salvation–it baffles me! John 3:3-5 “Except a man be born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” Why does everyone want to ‘just repent’ and call that salvation, argggg! Thank you for your post Clericus.

  • That is the most delusional defense of malicious, hateful behavior I have seen in days here. Theresa you are a terrible, dishonest and hateful human being.

    People who discriminate against because “God thinks they are abominations” are not interested in the eternal souls of those they treat badly. They simply are looking for socially sanctioned ways to act badly in public. You can quit the pretense you are trying to show them God’s law.

    Your version of “love” and “showing people the way” involves attacking them and in many driving them to their deaths. You are simply looking for a way to be both self-righteous and a malicious person at the same time.

    Nobody requires your input as to whether they are following God’s Laws or not. You are saying your religious belief entitles you to ignore personal boundaries and deliberately demean others. Your version of “christian love” is indistinguishable from hate. The actions are the same.

  • Larry, I read and reread Teresa’s post and couldn’t find anything supporting the taking any form of legal or punitive action against gay people. Maybe Teresa would like to elaborate on whether she believes there should be or not, and maybe you should ask her about it before calling her names.

  • Ed alone among human beings has apparently done the impossible — he has traversed the length and breadth of reality in all of its aspects, taken a peek beyond the universe, and definitively determined that there absolutely is no god.

    Wait here just a minute, Eddie, while I make you a dunce cap and send you to the nearest corner.

  • Cranmer, if Charles Manson believes that 2 and 2 make 4, does that make him wrong because he’s Charles Manson?

  • Billy, you make a valid point about her divorces. It’s intellectually dishonest to condemn her for her divorces as being a Christian hypocrite when in fact she apparently hadn’t yet made any Christian commitment or profession during that time.

  • Ed, there are zillions of people across the nation and world whose lives have been demonstrably changed for the better subsequent to their repenting of their sins and accepting Christ as their Savior and Lord.

    There’s literally no name in the world through which more people’s lives have been changed, demonstrably and dramatically, for all to see.

  • Clericus, I hate to break this to you, but Jesus is never called Father, nor did He ever call Himself that.

    The Trinity wasn’t just pulled out of a hat. It was a doctrine that emerged from serious, sustained thought, reflection, and prayer on what the Bible says about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    When it comes to this issue, there is literally nothing new under the sun. There is nothing you or I can come up with that wasn’t discussed, deliberated upon, and debated at length during the first three centuries of Christendom.

    Any alternative to the Trinity ends up simply emphasizing one truth about the nature of God at the expense of some other truth that is at least of equal importance.

    The Trinity is the best we can come up with when looking at every aspect of Father, Son, and Spirit, and doing justice to every facet.

  • My simple question to people who defend Ms Davis is this: if she had been a Protestant who converted to Catholicism, and as such believed that remarriage after divorce is a grave sin, based on her understanding of Jesus’ clear words on marriage in the New Testament, would you defend her choice not to issue marriage licenses to people unless they first proved that they had never before been married? Would you believe she should be able to deny marriage licenses to divorced people based on her religious beliefs?

  • Damn auto fill on the phone. 🙂

    I am not denying it.

    I even admitted to Ben from San Francisco it was a Poe trolling effort.

    Now lets get to the real point here.

    I know time travel can make you forget what era you are in. It can cause one to make references which are completely irrelevant and out of date.

    But do us a favor. When traveling through Earth’s history, try to educate yourself about when you are before stepping out of the TARDIS. 🙂

    Imelda Marcos? Really? In 2015?

  • Hi Jack,
    In my opinion, your camp confuses things, with ideas. (Kant)
    (Confuses God(s) with ideas about God(s). (Also Kant)
    I know of no material evidence to support any supernatural explanations. All theology rests on speculation and logical propositions (the “must” -meaning “I don’t know but…, and other shallow assumptions such as cause and effect, the insistance on beginnings etc.).
    Humans, , in all known societies, have experienced phenomena which they proclaimed to be supernatural. My favorite is the tribe that moves their village across a river, whenever a member dies, because everyone “knows”
    that the spirits of the dead cannot cross a river. My rule is that every “fact” that
    “everybody knows” (like causality), is most likely wrong!

  • ” that traces its roots to the historic church”
    Right! The Arians, and uncounted others who predated and/or rejected the trinity were eventually wiped out, or driven far underground.
    You mentioned hypocrites?

  • Jack, Jesus did say the “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” “I am in the Father and the Father in Me.” “…before Abraham was, I am.” and so on. There is not one Divinity of the Father and another Divinity of the Son. Divinity is Divinity! Since Divinity is Spirit, this same Divinity was in Christ and in Heaven with all the Fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Christ.
    I understand your position on the Trinity and I know about the historical development of this doctrine. And, yes, despite the many differences that churches have in doctrine, most churches continue to profess it. Most people will say that the Trinity is a mystery. But you cannot have it both ways. If the Trinity is a “mystery”, then the doctrine is still open to interpretation, and the case is not closed, at least not for the Trinitarians. Trinitarians have made the three personae into three different people in their expressions of faith. For the Apostolic, this is unacceptable for we believe that…

  • Hi Rick, Yes, I can defend Mrs. Davis’ faith but, in this case, I cannot defend Mrs Davis, choice not to issue marriage licenses. When you have a job, you have to do your job or leave. It is the same everywhere. I was ordained a presbyter in the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if I had been ordained, lets say, in the Episcopal church, I would have to follow the orders of my bishop and abide by the canons and constitution of that church. In the Episcopal church that means celebrating the Eucharist with women and gay people who have been ordained. If I didn’t want to do that because my views are very conservative, then I would have to leave and go to another denomination that would recognize my orders. That is one of the reasons I am Apostolic. BTW, in our Apostolic Church, marriage is for life, before and after baptism. Under certain circumstances divorce is permitted but not remarriage until that spouse has died. In Mrs Davis’ church maybe it is only after baptism.

  • It is beyond me why all of you people continue to talk about this woman as if she had a valid stance on this issue. She was hired and sworn to uphold the laws of the state of Kentucky. If for any reason, personal or otherwise, she feels she cannot continue to follow the rules of her office then so be it. Resign, stop trying to circumvent the rules of the office and the Court and move on with her life. Her tactics here are the same as she is accusing the rest of the world; trying to force the rest of the world to “see it her way”. This is not about Kim Davis or her personal beliefs but more importantly about doing the job you are hired to do regardless. If she cannot see her way clear to doing that, then move on.

  • Actually, the word translated in some English Bibles as “abomination” comes from the Hebrew word “toevah”, which is more accurately translated as “not usual to the culture”. It is also “toevah” to eat seafood, wear clothing made of mixed fabrics, and plant two different crops in the same field. What is more likely being referred to in this passage is the rape of a man by another man, reducing him to the social standing of a woman (which was lower than the oxen who plowed the field), thus denying his rightful social standing as being at the top of the food chain. Treating another man like a woman was the worse thing you could do to him, in that culture. If same-sex consensual sex was really the issue, why is it that there is absolutely no mention of women in same-sex relationships at all in the Bible? One verse in Romans mentions women “exchanging natural for unnatural sex”, but any sex that was not procreative was seen as unnatural, so can’t just slap on the lesbian…

  • Mark, i don’t know if you intended this, but your post seems an excellent example of the glossolalia everyone is on about. There is only the thinnest boundary between your writings here and simple gibberish.
    nothing personal meant, here, just an honest reaction to what scans as nonsense, presented as mature articulation.

  • God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their inhospitality, not because they were homosexuals. In desert nomad cultures where survival was hard offering hospitality to travelers was considered mandatory and ingrained into their society, so much so that attacking and trying to rape a visitor was the worst sin they could imagine. This is the way the story of Sodom and Gomorrah has traditionally been interpreted by Jewish scholars, who ought to know better than evangelical Christians (who heard the story much later). Look it up. Choose love.

  • I think you should interview a practicing Apostolic. This is a very poor description of our beliefs (not all of what you said is true).

  • I am waiting to see if my post got approved, but I agree with what you said.