Faith 2016 News

Clinton describes her ‘activist, social justice faith’ to Baptists

Hillary Clinton speaks to the Annual Session of the National Baptist Convention
Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton speaks to the annual session of the National Baptist Convention on Sept. 8, 2016, in Kansas City, Mo. Photo courtesy of Brian Snyder/REUTERS *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-CLINTON-FAITH, originally transmitted on Sept. 9, 2016.

(RNS) Talking about one’s faith doesn’t come naturally to a “Midwestern Methodist,” Hillary Clinton admitted.

Then the Democratic presidential nominee spent a half-hour doing just that, quoting Scripture, hymns and even St. Francis of Assisi as she described her “activist, social justice faith – a roll-up-your-sleeves-and-get-your-hands-dirty faith.”

“I am grateful for the gift of personal salvation and for the great obligation of the social gospel to use the gift of grace wisely, to reflect the love of God and to follow the example of Jesus Christ to the greater good of God’s beloved community,” she said. “That’s what led me to devote my life in the ways I could to serving others.”

RELATED: 5 faith facts about Hillary Clinton: Social Gospel Methodist to the core

Clinton’s remarks came Thursday (Sept. 8) evening at the National Baptist Convention, USA’s 136th annual session at the Kansas City Convention Center. They follow Donald Trump’s address over the weekend to the predominantly African-American congregation at Great Faith Ministries International Church in Detroit.

The National Baptist Convention, USA is one of the nation’s oldest and largest African-American religious organizations.

In her speech, Clinton remembered her father kneeling beside his bed to pray and her mother teaching Sunday school. She remembered traveling from Chicago’s suburbs into the city with her church youth minister to attend a black church for the first time and to hear a speech by the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and shake his hand.

She recounted the “hard lesson” she has taught as the occasional Sunday school teacher: “We’re not asked to love each other, not urged or requested. We’re commanded to love. Indeed, Jesus made it his greatest commandment.”

She repeated the Methodist credo that has peppered her speeches throughout her campaign: “Do all the good you can for all the people you can in all the ways you can as long as ever you can.”

And she drew applause and shouts, quoting words and Scriptures that have informed her belief: As attributed to St. Francis, “Try to preach the gospel always, and, if necessary, use words,” and from the Bible, “Faith without works is dead” and “We cannot just be hearers of the word, we must be doers.”

“For me, it has always been about trying to live up to the responsibility described by the prophet Micah: that we do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with our God,” she said.

But it wasn’t just about faith.

Clinton also praised the gun buyback program at Tabernacle Community Baptist Church in Milwaukee while pledging to support “common-sense gun safety reforms.” She remembered celebrating the 60th anniversary of Rosa Parks’ resistance to segregation at Dexter Avenue King Memorial Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala., saying: “Rosa Parks may have opened up every seat on the bus. Now it’s our job to create good jobs so everyone can afford the fare.”

She pledged to reform the criminal justice system, address systemic racism, raise the national minimum wage, guarantee equal pay for women, support small businesses and bring back high school vocational programs. She called threats to limit voting rights a “blast from the Jim Crow past.”

And she touted her experience as secretary of state, wrestling with the hard choices “that will drive you to your knees” with President Obama in the Situation Room.

“As president, I will be your partner in this work of translating love into action,” she said.

Throughout the night, Clinton took several jabs at her Republican opponent. Clinton leads Trump 91 percent to 1 percent with registered African-American voters nationwide, according to a NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey released last month.

She said Trump has “a long history of racial discrimination in his business.” And she responded to his recent appeal to black voters, in which he said: “You’re living in poverty, your schools are no good. You have no jobs, 58 percent of your youth is unemployed, what the hell do you have to lose?”

“People who look at the African-American community and see only poverty, crime and despair are missing so much,” she said.

The Democratic nominee faced some criticism of her own the next day for her mix of faith and politics in the speech.

“Americans do not ‘need’ a candidate to pray for or with them,” said Sarah Levin of the Secular Coalition. “They need a candidate who will lead effectively and represent the values shared by Americans of all faiths and of no faith.”

Clinton also spoke about the humility that she said is rarely mentioned in politics, but an important quality in a leader, admitting she’d made mistakes and invoking the words of the hymn “Amazing Grace”: “It’s grace that lifts us up, grace that leads us home.”

“We need a president who will do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with our God,” she said.

About the author

Emily McFarlan Miller

Emily McFarlan Miller is a national reporter for RNS based in Chicago. She covers evangelical and mainline Protestant Christianity.


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  • I believe she is a chameleon, adjusting her views as needed to suit her audience, her goals and to line up with public opinion. She is the consummate politician. For Christians it’s what you do that shows your faith, not what you say. Look at her record and judge for yourselves.

  • Say what you want about Hillary, she knows the “ground game” in an election means more than saying silly things to get media attention and fielding softball questions in controlled interviews.

  • I can’t find anywhere where the phrase “Do all the good you can for all the people you can in all the ways you can as long as ever you can” is associated with the Methodist Church. Can someone point me to the Methodist document that contains it?

  • Amen, Brother! Her husband quoted scripture as well, and played to the emotions of his black audiences, then through their foundation they accepted cash from the worst African despots, in exchange for government access and legitimacy. Amidst all the “God-talk” what the Clintons truly believe in is money–lots of it,

  • Sure, Spuddle. That’s why she hasn’t even had a press conference in close to a year, where her adoring, biased press can feed her some of those softball questions.

  • Whereas Hillary is mobilizing voter registration drives and working to attack pernicious voting restrictions which favor Republicans, Trump has a campaign office consisting of a handful of people and a twitter feed.

    “That’s why she hasn’t even had a press conference in close to a year, where her adoring, biased press can feed her some of those softball

    Her adoring biased press? Trump is being graded by the press on a very low curve. Mostly out of fear of being denied access to him. Did you see how Matt Lauer (a journalistic featherweight) spent 15 minutes of Clinton’s 30 minutes for the “Commander in Chief” event on the nonsense Email stuff while he let Trump spout some of the most ridiculous and dishonest stuff out there (we are going to steal ISIS’s oil? Really?)

  • “they just twist the bible to advance their political agenda”

    Like conservatives have been doing since 1968. Hence a political movement called “The RELIGIOUS right”.

    Look common ground has been found. 🙂

  • “then through their foundation they accepted cash from the worst African despots, in exchange for government access and legitimacy.”

    Huh????? Please elaborate with some kind of link.

    As someone who does not speak wingnut, I am genuinely curious as to what you are referring to.

    That being said, since you brought up the subject of despots, maybe you should take a gander about how Trump abets human trafficking in Dubai for personal gain.

  • Actually, talking about one’s faith comes naturally to a socialist. They talk about government all the time.

    If you really want to “do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with our God” you should renounce socialism and embrace conservatism.

  • “She recounted the “hard lesson” she has taught as the occasional Sunday school teacher:” Is that like the time she had to run for cover because they were shooting at her as she got off of her aircraft?

  • It’s clear that Sec. Clinton knows her bible and her church. It is a non-Midwesterner thing to do – talk about your faith. It’s good that she can do it when necessary.

    See. Clinton’s agenda is laden with plans to make life a little better for those who are struggling. She does not plan to reduce taxes on the rich or corporations, shrink regulations so it’s easier for big business to poison people, etc. Her lifetime of advocating for girls and women around the world is a prime example of following the mantra about doing good for others.

    Sec. Clinton owns her mistakes and copes with nearly 30 years of multimillion dollar attacks and allegations by virulent haters, none of which hold water. She is a remarkable and courageous woman who fights on against rabid attackers. Sec. Clinton is admirable.

  • I have looked at her record going back the time she was the First Lady in Arkansas and she has my vote

  • Oh I am sure the people getting their HIV medications from the Clinton foundation would be outraged if they only knew. You remind me of the people that trashed Jerry Lewis for the work he did on behalf of MD You are to be pitied

  • I am a liberal because of the democratic platform is more consistent with my Christian ethics, taught to me in the OT Book Deuteronomy and explained in the Gospels.

  • Yeah,but look at her competition.Donald Trump is the only Republican candidate so far in the muck that even Hillary Clinton appears to be viable presidential prospect in contrast.

    Any just right of center seasoned politician would have wiped the floor with her. But that is not what Republican voters wanted.instead they got the Angry Cheeto.

  • I honestly have no idea what sableotodo2 was referring to and was asking for elaboration.

    If Hillary Clinton was not running against a serial investor defrauder, human traffic benefactor, adulterer, with a penchant for malapropism and racist rhetoric, she would be insanely behind in the polls.

  • Nobody is killing babies except republicans who want to literally take food from them in the form of slashing public assistance. Without public assistance many would not have lives to be “ruined”.

    As for marriage equality, it is clear many Christians do not place much value on monogamous consensual relationships and legal recognition of families.

  • Sure I can say.We both can point to how the Bible is invoked and twisted for political purposes. Common ground.

  • The entire religious right agenda is a litany of ignoring Jesus’s commands concerning the poor, violence, how we treat fellow people.

    We start with its support of segregation and racism in the late 60’s and go right to present day demonizing of the poor and refugees.

    They like to consider themselves the party of Christians, but only in a narrow self serving g manner

  • Why must you bear false witness?

    Babies are born.

    Conservatives are only concerned with life in gestation. Not those born. Especially not women.

    I am sure you are an ignorant bigot who can’t tell the difference between consensual adult relations and child abuse.

  • I am not the one who pretends s fetus can be separate from its mother prior to birth. You deny the very nature of placental mammalian reproduction by equating a fetus with a baby.

    You are so concerned thsyt would literally take food from their mouths in the name of “fiscal responsibility”.

  • Jesus said nothing about government outside of how it does not belong in the same room as religion. The Sanger chestnut would be important if not for the fact that the entire religious right spawned from the segregationists.

  • You are pretending omission, especially an ahistorical one is the same as endorsement of a given position. Government in Jesus’s day would never have cared for the poor in the first place. Your argument is ridiculous and denotes an indifference and hostile view of the poor which is against what Jesus spoke of.

    You are full of it and either ignorant of history or you think I am. Modern day progressives are anti racism. Modern day conservatives support discrimination.

  • Until a fetus can live outside the womb and be born, it has no existence independent and distinct from on its mother. Therefore nobody has a right to say anything on its behalf other than its mother.

    Starving to death helps people? Conservatives want people uneducated, hence attacks on public schooling. They want easily led cretins.

  • Do you know what the foundation does? Like a few others here, you have already made up your mind about her, and seek only those things that support your view. Unfortunately, I began with a jaded view toward her, because of the negative publicity she has received over the years. But, looking at her more closely, I have come to see that she is a person of deep faith – who knows her faith down to its roots – unlike Trump, who obviously hasn’t even cracked a Bible, let alone know its message. Your comment is shameful and disengenuous.

  • He asked for elaboration – apparently you can’t manage that. The rest of your diatribe says it all – she is against a terrible excuse for a human being. You have no idea where she would otherwise be in the polls.

  • There is actually nothing in the Bible against gay marriage – I”ve studied it for over forty years. Your diatribe is drivel. And where in Scriptures does it say that we are to hate the stranger that lives among us, abuse the poor, and give what belongs to the poor to the rich? You don’t seem to be reading my Bible!

  • The Biblical understanding of life is that it begins with the first breath. If you had any understanding of the Bible you would know that.

  • I think you are responding to the wrong person or I have done a terrible job at communication here. In the interest of discussion, I will say that its my fault and didn’t come off the way I intended.

    1. I put sableotodo2’s remarks concerning the Clinton Foundation in quotes and asked him to elaborate on what he meant. Being completely unaware of what he was trying to reference. I was looking for a further explanation.

    2. I don’t really think well of Clinton but Trump is despicable I think Clinton made it clear in 2008 that she was not a particularly good candidate for president. If the Democrats had a wider field in the primaries, I don’t think she would have survived them.

    I think far worse of her opponent. If I think Clinton is not a great choice, I think Trump is absolutely a terrible one in comparison. This is an election, the comparison must be made. Plus when it comes to slimy foibles, I think Trump is being graded on a ridiculously low curve. Clinton’s “controversies” are chickenfeed. In more than 20 years of being in the public political spotlight there has been nothing but rumor and aspersions against her. Trump on the other hand has loads of documented misdeeds attributed to him. Bribery, support of human trafficking, defrauding investors, even racial discrimination. Yet this gets little scrutiny or negative attention by the media.

    I think if Clinton was running against someone like Mitt Romney or what passes for a moderate Republican in this day and age, she would fare poorly. But against Trump, a man who is practically trying to lose the election on purpose, Clinton becomes an excellent choice.

  • Depending on a machine to stay alive is not the same as depending on a sole individual’s bodily systems to stay alive. Bad analogy is BS used when one cannot argue against relevant facts. No doubt you don’t consider a pregnant woman to be nothing more than an incubator with no will of her own outside of your opinion. You don’t consider them human, or at least not human enough to make personal and private decisions without your approval.

    Public schools in this country work, when governments aren’t trying to divert money away from them to fill the pockets of cronies. I guess you don’t think Americans are entitled to a basic level of education.

    You are truly a hateful, nasty and selfish person. You got yours, eff everyone else. Claim its God’s will so you can pretend its not to be criticized.

  • Emily Miller would not know truth, if it her in the face like a freight train. Oh by the way neither would Hillary Clinton. Scripture is about truth not lying. Hillary Clinton hides the truth about her mentors, they are fascists and she is a liar. Speaking biblical truth with deceptive intentions is lying.

    The Hebrew God’s had a conversation with Samuel, Judge & prophet of Israel in 1 Samuel 8. Israel was warned not to want a King, war would result. America’s Constitution resulted from this conversation, limited government. The false Divine Right of Kings to Rule is a European philosophy of law based upon a false interpretation of that 1 Samuel 8, passage. European Kings and banker gangsters want America’s government destroyed. All Social justice is a lie from Hillary’s home town, HELL. Go back home Hillary Clinton, you are not wanted as America’s next President.

  • First, we’re not talking about Trump here. I’m a registered Independent, and try to hold both sides to account.

    Back to the Clintons: a lot of what the foundation does is to pay for the first-class internation travel of the Clintons and their cronies. It also pays the salaries of said cronies who’re waiting for the election to be over so they can be appointed to various high-paying jobs in the government. Charity Navigator will not rate then as a non-profit. The whole private email server-scandal was designed to make the dealings of the Clinton Foundation opaque, rathter than transparent–a good predictor of what kind of administration she would run as president.

    Re: negative publicity: Sunshine is the best disinfectant! Her 13 separate electronic devices (Blackberries, etc.) gave the lie to her excuse that she wanted to deal with just one device. Yep, her “faith” is rooted in whatever narrative that will sell at the moment, with the biggest audience. That’s a kind way of saying, she lies! Go ahead and defend her faith. I’m sure lots of other start-struck suckers will as well.

  • Its not murder. You have to be born to be murdered.

    Tell me why you think all women must answer to you for decisions as to what goes on in their bodies? You mistake have an opinion as to how women live their lives with having a say in such matters.

  • You are suggesting everyone has to pay for education out of their own pocket? Like that will create a system which will provide adequate education for the widest swath of the population?

    Attacking public education isn’t producing results other than making education more difficult to obtain for middle and working classes. Conservatives offer nothing of value in the alternative. Btw if liberals are so easily led and uneducated, why is Trump bombing out with college educated voters in the polls?

  • “so when technology brings the date of survival outside the womb to a month then what will you do?”

    The abortion issue will be resolved. Allegedly concerned fetus worshipers like yourself can take custody of unwanted pregnancies. No need to burden women with your self-righteous and narcissistic views as how they are supposed to live their lives. If the dominant species on the planet were the platypus instead of humans, abortion would not be an issue. 🙂

    But until then a fetus lives only at the will of its mother. Not your opinion. So her will is the only thing that matters in the situation. You don’t have to like her decisions, you have no say in them. Unless you can take possession of a fetus, all you do is attack her rights.

  • Use the words “Liberal Plantation” and I can fill my ridiculously ignorant conservative history Bingo Card. So which candidate is David Duke endorsing? It ain’t Hillary Clinton.

    Read this:
    “A Short History of White Racism in the Two-Party System”

    Every time Republicans use the “Democrats are the party of racism” the reaction is always one where one considers the speaker is either an ignoramus or a lying sack of turds. At no point is it ever credible because of the glaring historical omissions.

    Seriously, do you guys really believe that garbage or do you acknowledge its just there to divert discussions and fling insults?

  • I think you completely missed what he said and are making a nonsensical mess of an interpretation. Jesus certainly never said, “only my flock should take care of the poor”, nor “one should turn away potential help for the poor”. But that is what you advocate. It kinda missed the point of his message

  • Whatever excuses make you feel better about treating the poor badly and being indifferent to them. The sort of thing Jesus denounced.

    I can’t help it if your religion teaches you to do things which are politically inconvenient.

  • “oh right women are SO burdened by a pregnancy which is a blessing from God”

    Your opinion about pregnancy doesn’t give you a say in how women have to deal with it. You think so, but others not only don’t, but don’t have to. Thank you for demonstrating what a narcissistic arrogant self-righteous person you are. Obviously you believe all women must do as you say. That they cannot make decisions withouy your approval.

    Your analogies have gotten so ridiculous I have to break this off. You have gotten so far beyond sane conversation that its not worth the effort to respond. You consider a fetus a person, but a woman is not. That is effing stupid beyond words. Especially since a fetus only lives because its mother wills it to be so.

    “nazi much?”

    … as a bag of hammers

  • “School choice” being government sponsored violations of the Establishment Clause and diversions of public resources towards private entities.

  • Can you name one privatization effort which did not end in rampant corruption and major declines in quality of service to the public? It doesn’t happen. When businesses run public services they do so to maximize profits, not improve quality of services. Government has a duty and mandate to the public that private industry not only doesn’t have, but doesn’t ever want.

    You really haven’t a clue what you are talking about. .

  • “oh sure killing an unborn human is something to be celebrated and cheered”

    Nope. But its none of your business either unless its your uterus. For people who champion personal freedom and rugged individualism you seem to be awfully controlling when it comes to what women do with their reproductive organs.

  • Whatever. You want to be hysterical and stretch facts to suit your self-righteous position, so be it.

    “what about the personal freedom of the baby”

    Babies are born. Their freedom is protected by any adult human being who can care for it. A fetus has none until it is born. It doesn’t live unless the mother wills it so. So its not a relevant concern. The fact that you pretend a fetus is exactly in the same as a baby only means you can’t deal with the facts in an honest fashion.

  • The US never had government owned airlines. It is not an example of privatization. It is an example of deregulation.

    Improving in quality? Have you flown recently? Are you kidding me? How many airlines have gone bankrupt or reorganized since that time. Airlines have made travel more onerous for passengers than it was in the past.

    As for the VA, maybe if conservatives stop cutting benefits to veterans, it would be more effective. As it was in the decades it operated in the past. Republicans like to say they support our troops, right before they bend them over a barrel. Its tough to keep a straight face and complain about a program that one is actively undermining and destroying.

  • Because single payer insurance was nixed by conservatives. Who runs our healthcare system in this country?

    Are you dense or just dishonest?

  • Babies are born. One has to be born to be murdered. Your inability to distinguish between born and unborn means you are unwilling to be honest with facts here. Have you always been such a hysteric and liar?

  • “Ku Klux Klan Grand Dragon Will Quigg Endorses Hillary Clinton for President”

    He’s retracting his support of Donald Trump! He isn’t supporting Hillary. He wants to protest Trump’s alleged “softening stance on immigration”.

    You didn’t read the article you linked to, just the headline. LMAO!

  • Until you can separate a fetus from its mother, nobody has to care except her. In her body, her rules. Don’t like it, tough luck. Women are people with their own rights. Among them is that they are not answerable to you.

  • I will pray for you. Bless your heart. One day God will show you the correct path through your troubled soul.

  • “what is that difference? ”

    One lives inside a womb entirely at the will of the mother. The other has independent autonomous existence. If you can’t tell the difference, it means you are just being stupid or dishonest,

    I will pray for you. Bless your heart. Have a good weekend.

  • I guess you like more terrorism in your flying. As for onerous flying, it wasn’t the government which reduced seat sizes on planes, cut corners on maintenance, overworked airline staff, took away typical perks of passengers and made airline food so disgusting. ITS STILL NOT AN EXAMPLE OF PRIVATIZATION EITHER. You really don’t know what you are talking about.

    Healthcare costs have become dramatically larger since WWII and Vietnam. Largely due to removal of regulations concerning healthcare and healthcare coverage. So why do you hate our troops so much?

  • Person is a legal term. Babies are people. People are born. They have independent autonomous existence. A fetus does not. It has no existence beyond its mother’s will. It may be human, but it is not a person.

    I will pray for you. Bless your heart.

  • The level of prejudice demonstrated in many of these comments: obviously reflecting pre determined opinions without regard to intelligent thought or analysis, is an indictment of the level of honesty.. Most, probably all, of the responders, have never spoken personally with those they insult and attack. To believe what people say about another, is blind stupidity. To simplify the complex is typical of those who know little and therefore assume to know all.

  • That meeting of Southern Baptist was in a building / room that permitted several hundred participants to listen to speakers. For more than one day these meetings happened, the large room was filled, very few seats empty. When Hillary spoke the room was almost empty. The several hundred had left, only something near 50 were there to hear her. Eyewitness and pictures exist. Pictures do not lie. Lay your condemnation upon all those Southern Baptists that left and WOULD not listen to her speak.

  • We all will witness HIM saying on that very Eventful Day in the future, “well done thou good and faithful servant”. Which one of these will HE say that to? Fascist and Oligarch David Rockefeller is a modern day Globalist. Hillary is a participant with CFR members. Donald Trump is not a CFR member. Gods plans to create America for HIS purposes will cause HIM to destroy CFR efforts

    This evil will not happen now (2016) but it will happen in a few years when you are still on earth NOT celebrating that EVENTFUL wedding. You will miss that event as your present state indicates.

  • Ask Cathy O’Brien who was a monarch sex slave by the MK Ultra mind control. Many US Congress members were involved with these monarch sex slaves. Cheney, Bush Sr, and Hillary Clinton raped her. Accusations to come with her husband Mark Phillips and Nebraska’s John Decamp to testify. Hillary has no Christian faith. She raped Cathy O’Brien. Its coming, the exposure of Hillary faith in evil.

    People do not read and the only thing that is of value is what has occurred in their life time. So many Americans live in ignorance of the world that existed 100, 500, 900 2500 years ago. The Venetian-London-New York Oligarchy crash in 2016 will fall on your head.

  • I find it curious how one can determine one’s eternal state by a simple 11 word sentence. I don’t think I was flattering one over the other. I will not be voting for either candidate. Secondly, I’m amillennial and not a pre-Millenial Dispensationalist . The millennium was inaugurated when Jesus ascended and he is rules now. The church will still be here, will endure the tribulation, when Jesus shows up to consummate the Kingdom.

  • Keep religious mythology OUT of politics. Injecting religion into politics results in something like the Republican Party. $hillary is not much better.

  • So it is only some DNA that makes a clump of cells human? So when you masturbate, are you killing hundreds of thousands of babies when you ejaculate on the floor? Maybe it is YOU who need to go back to Science 101.

  • OK so we have a lot of supposition, rumor and speculation for Clinton. Since its an election, we need to talk about Trump as well. They are running against each other. Perspective is necessary. “None of the above” is not an option for leader of the nation.

    If one has a mild ethical issue and the other has engaged in wholesale corruption, although both are bad people, the less bad one must be treated better in perspective.

    I don’t consider Hillary Clinton the most forthcoming, effective or ethical politician out there. But she either knows discretion very well or is adept at defending herself from overblown accusations. Trump is a flaming train of radioactive waste about to hit a busload of nuns in comparison. This is a guy constantly hauled before courts for defrauding investors, who has admittedly engaged in corruption of politicians (including outright bribery to avoid prosecution), who has gotten into trouble for encouraging racial discrimination in his residential properties, the list goes on. Trump can’t even appear in public without saying something very undignified.

    If Hillary stinks like rotten eggs in your garbage can, Trump burns out your olfactory nerves like a truckload of angry skunks.

  • Book Recommendation side bar – Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong Kindle Edition
    by James W. Loewen

    book sounds like its here to beat up on teachers, but no. It hacks
    apart the manufacturers of scholastic textbooks and their insistence on
    having an American “Creation Myth” both political parties have shifted over the years from left to right and back.

    The Republican used to be the party of intelligent business commentary wearing suits and proud of their education. now they sneer at anyone with a “Harvard education” and revel in flannel and beer. Agreed, Democrats were racist – but now you are.

    Loewen brings up a view of the
    plague that decimated the Indians and how that affected how Western
    Europe took root here on this continent. He contends 97% of the native
    populations were dead 70+ years before the arrival of the Plymouth
    settlement. This plague can not be safely attributed to “christian
    hostility.” – of course I am not absolving Western European Christians
    from other atrocities. My people were converted at the sword and I’m not
    so thrilled about saying anything nice about christianists through

    All that aside, Loewen’s book is a stunner and aggressively debated and checked over the last decade.

  • OK killing babies and gay marriage isn’t anything to do with christianity – so, why is it that you christianists can’t seem to talk about anything else? you whored out your made up religion for those two non christian agenda.

  • Biblical understand? thats an oxymoron. the bible is a made up book. it describes stories and fables from thousands of years ago and should be set aside in favor of modern medicine. Please – stop with stone age medicine already

  • That passage is not about conception – if it were, then we would be “”preconcieved.” It is about God’s foreknowledge.

  • Must be nice to live in a make-believe world. No one who knows anything about scripture would agree with you.

  • Former Congress man John DeCamp of Nebraska wrote a book on this subject, it made such a commotion that he was sued in court. The Franklin Cover Up. He won that law suit and then filed his own law suit and won that court case also. A Court Judge in Nebraska awarded John DeCamp a very large amount of money more than 35 plus years ago. You do not do much reading, do you? Read Webster Tarpley regarding the Oligarchy from Venice that moved to London in 1510 and became the British Empire. Those Oligarchs exist today, the Rockefeller-Bush-Clinton crime family. You do not know history.

  • Of course you wouldn’t – you drank the cool aid. Honestly you all live in terror of the eternal torture chamber and act accordingly. I have to believe in 4 critical invisible things before even reading the scriptures – i dont believe in those things – they are absurd nonsense

    There is no Hell. if there is, Point at it on a star chart. tell me where it is, but you can’t. it’s invisible and imaginary. IF its not real I don’t have to be saved from it, and don’t need a Savior, and don’t need the bible. Prove hell

    I don’t believe there’s a god that counts our sins or even holds anything to be sins. Prove it

    not sure i have a soul – prove it

    I don’t believe my soul can be tortured. Prove it

    You got nothing.

    SO of course Hillary is 1) pandering to you dangerous fools. 2) drank the cool aid and crazier than i think and still pandering. What you going to do, vote Trump?

    See all you have in your corner is dangerous crazy things. A made up hell you are all in pants filling fear of, and a crazy billionaire that will turn this world to shit. This is not name calling- its an assessment. I;m standing outside your prison pointing out the illusion. Don’t say you never had a chance.

  • This dude laughing and raving is sounding like a bond villain. I’m amazed at your patience – he’s not even reading your words. Love you Spuddie – our team is better with u

  • The TSA sucks at stopping terrorism, but your team thought it up!! IT WAS YOUR IDEA!…Christian Republicans protecting the homeland – that’ll work.

    The funny thing is that when you guys get drummed out of government, the first thing your side will scream is “taxation without representation” breathlessly – and something about “death panels…”

  • Could you try to be Christian? Just TRY?

    Your whole creed seems to boil down to judging other people and relishing sentencing anyone you dont like to hell. Are you not capable of seeing how savage that is?

  • Wait… Republican? Are you sure? you don;t like money in politics? Religion is a multi BILLION dollar untaxed industry and you don’t like money? trump had three wives. He has bragged about the women he’s had sex with. he hangs out with sex stars! And you are worried about Clinton pandering to you? Trump is the least christian force in politics in decades and you’re fine with him? Do you see my confusion?

  • The most honest use of money in politics is as a means of getting your message out. I’m an independent, unaffiliated voter and no shill for either Trump or Clinton. I don’t care how much sex they have, how well or bady they do it, with whom, where or why–“just don’t do it in the street and scare the horses!” I’ll grant them free rein of their appetites–I just don’t want them selling us out to the depots of the world for a few pieces of silver.

    Here’s an idea: Tomorrow’s Sunday. Let’s turn loose of our faith in either candidate, as both of these are broken reeds. Let’s go to our place of worship and offer our best adoration and gratitude to God in the best way we can. Then let’s pray for the wisdom to see through the political calculations of both candidates to sway our emotions and cause us to think they’re truly serving the Lord when they parade their stuff about and showcase their “best stuff” to sway voters.

    Any takers?

  • That’s not true. he did say for the government to do it. I just read an article about it that listed several of the quotes from the bible about it. I’ll see if I can find it because I didn’t save it, unfortunately.

  • With all due respect, who cares? it’s a made up book.

    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you
    give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in

    Gandalf – Fellowship of the Ring

    I can play this game too,

    Ebola is a terrible reality. The bombing of Alepo is a terrible reality. You have a string of words about a made up place. You can not see the difference? I am asking you to lift your face from the book and look around you.

    You have been threatened with eternal torture all of your life, so much you think its right behavior, that sane people do this? I’m standing outside the prison yard looking in at you. All you have to do is look around to see the gate has been open for millennia.


    [Caption next to picture of Hillary Clinton]
    Year, I screwed up with the E-mail. Wish I hadn’t, but I did. What I’m not doing is appearing in court in October to face charges for raping a 13 year old girl. I also don’t have ties to the Mob that are just coming out now in the press. I am not appearing in court in November because of a sham university I ran. I’m not funneling campaign donations into my pocket. I’m not addicted to amphetemines. I didn’t go and hire a white supremacist to run my campaign. I also don’t have a perv with 25 sexual harasment claims prepping me for the debates. And I’m not worried that f I sit in a room full of African Americans , something racist is going to blurt from my mouth. So ___ off with the E-mails.

  • Ok, maybe you think that isreal was prophesied by the Bible, but Robert Heinlein and Issac Azimov predicted the cell phone. Does that make science fiction works of God? LoTR has as much relevance as your bible, maybe even more.

    Hell is NOT real. There’s a simple way through this test – show me hell. I will not relent, Tom. You have to pony up and stop dodging. No more empty quotes about Jesus judging, no quotes about Isreal – bring the real deal. Show the real hell. IF its real it has a place and location in reality. IF it isn’t its an imaginary footnote in a 2000 year old book with a violent reputation.

    If it’s imaginary it holds no power. you know that and you fear that.

    You fear this because of all the people you converted to this madness. You fear that because of the long long chain of wrong words you have spoken. you fear the wasted time in bending knee to illusion. You fear the backlash of the people around you that yoyu live with that WILL hurt you when you walk away from the madness.

    You fear this because of all the people you wrongly lashed out at, wishing them eternal torture. This behavior is monstrous. Stop it. Man up and walk away from all this craziness.

    Hell is an illusion. Made up. Not there.

    Its a childish fairy tale made up to scare children. You have been threatened and scared into this delusion. It’s sad to watch someone so broken. And yes you are broken if an unreal place holds so much sway in your calculations.

    If I have ignorance, show me. Where is Hell?

  • Sure you have famous people inside your prison. Many great minds have been scared into compliance by your threats of torture. I don’t doubt that. But again you still fail to show Hell. You know its imaginary. You know I am right.

    All of your mad laughter is a sign i hit a nerve Tom.

    Stop. Honestly. Stop.

    you know I am right. There is no hell. It all your imagination. QED

  • Well, seeing we have reached the “I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I” portion of the show, let’s recap.

    I have maintained as my assertion that the notion of Hell is crucial truth of your religion, and that for any of it to be true, any quote from any Bible, any shred of its history to be true, you must produce some evidence of that realm. Tom has been unable to do that. No hell, no need to be saved, no need for Jesus – free time on Sunday.

    Tom instead demonstrated that Hell is something he hopes exists as a place his god tortures people that dare to question him or his believers. That “justice” comes from the idea that in the 9th inning, I will be tortured.

    The peaceful and merciful tenants of Christianty where one loves their neighbor seem to be amended or discarded for this turture. Instead of turning the other cheek, offering prayer, guiding a person to another authority that might be able to answer questions or any such noble thing, Tom elects to discard all notions of “Christian behavior” and relish in loving the idea of my torture, with glee, laughter, and smiles.

    He has engaged in a laughter, strange and misplaced in a written argument, and perhaps sounds unbalanced. This brings me to my next point.

    On many occasions I have worked with good Christians that have a way of expressing their love of Christ that is completely absent of the notion of Hell. They present to their children a loving world free from coercion but rather showing a kinder way of walking.

    My strongest objection to Christianity has not been this love, but has been the insistence on the coercion surrounding the myth of Hell. (Do what we say or you will be tortured forever!!!) Instead of focusing on the great works of Christians, it burns out that effort and consumes the person into bean counting offenses and finding inside a wish to torture others that don’t live under similar contraints.

    I maintain that it is never ok to wish someone the experience of torture. Tom seems to relish in the idea. I could be tempted to make him an example of all the failings of Christianity, but sadly i think in the long run, he’s a very poor example of what a Christian can become. To preserve his only true tenant of his faith, he has discarded all of the other loving points and now sounds more like dialogue for the Joker

    At the hands of people like him, i have been beaten and spat on. I have been rejected by my family. They all insisted that was fine to do, because in the end, Hell is mine. No more love. no more kindness. Beat the fag.

    I have tried to put that experience in context for many years. Don’t ever get on the wrong side of this mob. Tom will be there leading them to madness.

    i think for those reading here, we have a beautiful example of how this one aspect of Christian thinking is amazingly toxic to that religion and to the world as a whole. It’s my intent to clarify, i believe there is a way to state your Christianity in ways that refocus on the works of Christ instead of the threats of the church. our world needs this emphasis. The world needs this kind of Christianity.

    With one last word to Tom in this matter, I truly see you as a child living your whole life under the threat of torture, missing all the rest of your religion. I see you surrounded by people that you secretly know wish you torture if you fail to hold their line of what they think some version of the bible says. It’s been padded with people smiling and bonus rounds like christmas and easter, but always looming under it all is that space where you all feel you get to threaten torture on each other for merely questioning the architecture of your religion.

    I expect to see at the end of this message, another screed relishing in my harm and torture. Let’s just say that you did and save you the trouble. You’ve made your contempt for me and this whole forum plain.

    I will leave the invitation outside the gates of your prison. Come out and join the free people any time you like. When you embrace the truth, you will find the world your creator actually made, and it’s beautiful and full of amazing people and questions. i have always wished you the best.