Trey Pearson's experience as a gay Christian musician tells us much about the state of the faithful on same-sex issues. Photo courtesy of Breezy Baldwin via Flickr Commons

What a gay Christian rocker’s woes tell us about American Christianity

In August, it seemed that Trey Pearson of "Everyday Sunday" would become the first openly gay artist to grace the stage at a major Christian music festival. But when he publicly announced that he would be performing at Joshua Fest, not everyone was excited about the milestone.

Eleven members of Joshua Fest's production team threatened to quit if Pearson performed, so event leaders dropped him from their roster. But the story did not end there. Several bands who were also invited to play the festival were disturbed by the public snub of an LGBT person. In a surprise move, the band "Five Iron Frenzy" invited Pearson on stage to perform their last song at Joshua Fest with them. According to reports, attendees were crying at the show of solidarity.

Christians on both sides of the so-called gay debate can find something to love in this story. Conservatives can celebrate the backlash against Pearson's invitation and event leaders' decision to rescind it. Liberals will praise Joshua Fest for inviting him to begin with and the courage of "Five Iron Frenzy" to make space for Pearson anyway. But I think this festival saga is a snapshot of the wider debate happening among Christians.

Trey Pearson's woes reveal at least three truths about American Christianity and LGBT issues:

Traditionalists are still a force with which to reckon: Progressive Christians often speak about Christians with a traditional stance on same-sex issues like a dying minority on life support. While most Christian groups are becoming more accepting of homosexuality, traditionalists still comprise roughly half of all Christians. And this resistant bunch isn't indifferent either. Their leaders are influential, their organizations are well-funded, and their constituency is loud.

In Pearson's case, a handful of upset traditionalists were able to get him booted from the roster. This isn't the first time leaders have been pressured to walk back their decisions. After World Vision announced they would hire LGBT employees in 2014, the traditionalist outcry was so great that they reversed the policy two days later. It's unclear whether most traditionalists will eventually become gay affirming or seek to strike some sort of cultural compromise on the issue, but for now, they remain stubbornly in place.

Traditionalists' resistance is mostly rooted in conviction, not hatred. Though more progressive readers might disagree, Christian resistance to LGBT relationships and marriage is not mostly fueled by red-eyed rage and hatred. There are plenty of exceptions, and you don't have to locate a Westboro Baptist wingnut to discover Christian ignorance and hatred toward LGBT persons. But these are the exceptions rather than the rule.

I grew up with traditionalist Christians, have attended mostly churches that hold to a traditionalist position, and at least half of my Christian friends do not affirm homosexual erotic behavior as holy. Whether the traditionalist Christians I've met are correct or not is a matter for debate. But I can say with confidence that the impetus for their beliefs is usually rooted in a particular interpretation of the biblical text and a desire to promote what they think is "holy" living.

Pearson's story echoes this idea. In a Billboard interviewJoshua Fest owner Aaron Diello refused to call the upset stagehands "haters." Instead, he said they were merely "good guys that need more Jesus."

LGBT Christians finally have a seat at the table. At the turn of the 21st Century, "gay Christian" was considered by many believers to be an oxymoron. Even LGBT people who were committed to celibacy were often shunned. At many churches, if you were gay, you were gone. But much has changed across America and among the faithful.

It's clear that we have now moved beyond the point where LGBT people are persona non grata in most Christian communities. Many prominent conservative congregations now welcome LGBT people to attend, worship, and even serve. Some Christian conferences have made space on their stages for LGBT people, and a handful of conferences have arisen specifically for gay Christians. Christian publishers have started publishing books by gay Christians and pro-LGBT advocates, and many Christian musicians are pushing for LGBT inclusion in their industry. Christian pastors, theologians, ethicistsleaders, and even the longtime editor-in-chief of Christianity Today, David Neff, have become open and affirming. So LGBT Christians finally have a seat at the table.

Pearson tells me that, when it comes to same-sex relationships, he believes Christians "are more divided than ever" but also shifting quickly. He says, "I think after the older generation dies out, that homosexuality will become predominantly affirmed in most churches."

He's right. While traditionalists are not rapidly disappearing, they are declining as a share of the Christian population. If current trends persist, the dominant majority of Christians will be LGBT-affirming in the near future. Perhaps we are approaching a day when a traditionalist Christian musician will be rejected from a mainstream stage because they are considered immoral. If that day arrives, traditionalist Christians will surely hope that progressives will treat them better than they have treated the LGBT community in years past.


  1. “Liberals will praise Joshua Fest for inviting him to begin with and the courage of “Five Iron Frenzy” to make space for Pearson anyway. But I think this festival saga is a snapshot of the wider debate happening among Christians.”

    Evangelicals are graded on a curve, where acts of common decency that occur everywhere else are treated as acts of bravery and courage because Christians are involved.

  2. Funny how you can take what is supposed to be a balanced article and still make those who hold to the authority of scripture sound like the bad guys. I would fall into the including but not affirming camp. I acknowledge that we have treated our gay brothers and sisters poorly, but I still cannot change what scripture says. You can hold to the revisionist interpretations as much as you want. You can want the church to cave to satisfy the culture. But when scholars like NT Wright, Wesley Hill, and Preston Sprinkle say the church has gotten God’s expectations on sexual living correct all these years, I take them seriously. More importantly, I take Scripture seriously. The Greek is clear. Who am I to disagree with what God has deemed best? Where has the anything-goes way of living gotten us? To chaos. Whether it be hetero- or homosexual promiscuity, we continue the downward spiral of lives lived in disarray. Wesley Hill, Eve Tushnet, and Christopher Yuan offer solutions and encouragement. Am I being dismissive or saying it is easy? Absolutely not. But Jesus was explicit about pornea as well as feeding the poor. The right has been accused of caring only about sexuality and not the poor and needy, but the left wants to care for the poor and needy and ignore the expectations of living lives that are holy. We need it all–not one or the other. As far as Mr. Pearson, he made a covenant. He broke it. Divorce should not be celebrated, especially when it so often is the result of selfishness as it obviously is in Mr. Pearson’s case.

  3. It’s very difficult to determine where “sincere religious belief” leaves off and plain old bigotry– Antigay bigotry or religious bigotry or both– begins.

    Well, no it’s not.

    It’s one thing to believe that gay sex is a sin. It’s quite another thing to believe any vicious lie about gay people, to repeat those vicious lies, to not care about the lying and reviling and slandering of those who repeat or accept those vicious lies, to claim that we are a threat to everything good and holy, that our alleged sin is somehow greater than any other sin, and to actively work against our full and equal participation in society.


    How many of those stage hands will be voting for self proclaimed adulterer Donald trump? How many voted for adulterous, fornicating, unrepentant Newt ? How many of them are divorced for any reason except adultery?

    The whole controversy illustrates the point exactly. Were those stage hands objecting to the presence of all of the other sinners on the stage– by definition in Christianity, every single person on that stage– or just the gay one? And was it because he was an unrepentant sinner, or just an unrepentant sinner in a particular class of sinner?

    Or, what I believe to be the case, an UPPITY unrepentant sinner?

    All of us may be sinners. Only some of us are throwing stones.

  4. A shorter, more succinct version of what I had to say.

  5. Imitation is the sincerest form of plagiarism– St. Oscar Levant. :0)

  6. “…still make those who hold to the authority of scripture sound like the bad guys”

    They were the bad guys. They acted indecently, maliciously, coercively and in a bigoted manner. They did not want to suffer having a gay person in their midst and in a venue where they exerted some petty means of power.

    Calling something allegedly scriptural is nowhere close to calling actions proper or moral.

    Out of all the interpretations of scripture out there, you and they chose the one which justifies malicious treatment of others. It’s not the fault of god or Scripture. It’s your own fault. It’s your prejudice, you choose to use religion to excuse it, it’s all you.

  7. ” Divorce should not be celebrated, especially when it so often is the result of selfishness as it obviously is in Mr. Pearson’s case.”

    Obvious to you. Perhaps not obvious to the actual people whose lives you are busy judging, and whose motives you are happy to impugn.

    Who said “Judge not lest ye be judged?” No one important.

    “Where has the anything-goes way of living gotten us? To chaos. Whether it be hetero- or homosexual promiscuity, we continue the downward spiral of lives lived in disarray.” I know plenty of gay Christians, married gay Christians, and their lives are neither promiscuous nor in disarray. Nor are they claiming that “anything goes.”
    That’s all you.

  8. This is a journey. I agree old forms of discrimination die slowly…but die they will. There may be some new young blood who will follow these old forms of conviction which leads to discrimination but they will be but a minority. It would be interesting to know how many “handful of upset traditionalists” were over the age of 50? That answer will tell you where this issue is going.

  9. You seem to have grasped the concept of inclusion but your denying acceptance is just sad. I just wonder what Jesus would do in this situation? Hmmmm.

  10. Nice sugar coating, but your excuse has been used as justification for a parade of horribles as long as and wherever Christianity has dominated. There’s not much critical thinking on display here.

    “…the impetus for their beliefs is usually rooted in a particular interpretation of the biblical text and a desire to promote what they think is “holy” living.” Restated: my god hates who I [was taught to] hate.

  11. It disturbs me that sexual relationships between two consenting monogamous(and often legally married) adults behind closed doors is referred to as”homo erotic” behavior. It implies that gay people are out sleeping around or having sex at every opportunity…I am a gay christian and as such my behavior is governed by and under the umbrella of my Christian Convictions. I would not refer to the sexual practices of a heterosexual Christian couple as hetero erotic……Again religious belief or just in denial bigotry

  12. Yes Spuddie, those Bible-believers are the bad guys. For you and Ben, they’re **always** the bad gays. Dick Dastardly, Snively Whiplash, and Boris Badunov all in one package. Yep.

    From a visibly anti-Christian, atheistic perspective, it’s always going to look that way, because the Bible itself is clear on the issue, from Gen to Rev. You really do hate that Bible, yes?

    And to be honest, you apparently hate Christians who **publicly agree** with that Bible, and who take a public stand against the Gay Goliath on that basis (even when Goliath’s proxies try to do their stuff at Christian concerts). Hmm.

    Meanwhile, if any of the brave Bible-believing “Joshua Fest” production team members are reading this post, let me offer sincere thanks for your extraordinary Christian courage in a very difficult situation.

  13. Ben asks, “Who said ‘Judge not lest ye be judged’?

    So I would simply ask, “Was it the same guy who said, ‘Judge righteous judgment’?

  14. “Yes Spuddie, those Bible-believers are the bad guys. For you and Ben,
    they’re **always** the bad gays. Dick Dastardly, Snively Whiplash, and
    Boris Badunov all in one package. Yep.”

    In these type of stories it is the case. Belief that the Bible provides excuses for acting badly is still acting badly. Why did they force a performer from the festival, after booking him, after probably going through a contract where he was obligated to perform and the festival was obligated to compensate him for time and efforts? Because they wanted to be petty bigots. The staff at the festival could not suffer the presence of a gay person on their stage.

    Its not Christianity which is at issue here. It is people using their belief as an excuse to deny basic common decency to others. Having a belief is not the same as having morals. There was nothing moral, correct or even remotely ethical in the actions of the concert staff. It was just acting malicious for its own sake. Essentially “Eff You, I am Christian! I don’t have to treat you like a person”

  15. But not same guy who said, “We are none of us righteous. No, not one.”
    But almost as good.

  16. No, Doc. as always, you are ready to misstate my positon in order make your points about gay people ALWAYS being the bad guys.

    Believe whatever you like. But why is that always your excuse to treat people badly? Gay goliath? You poor, poor persecuted Christians. I bet that meany Trey making their shriveled little souls hurt that they actually had to treat him like all of the rest of the sinners.

    Extraordinary Christian courage? “Hey! Let’s have the gang of us treat this guy badly.” If that’s an example of Christian courage, I’ll think I’ll sneer in their general direction. That ought to make their little, judgmental souls shrivel even further.

    It takes far more courage for a gay man to stand up face unrelenting homohatred from so-called -Christians than it does for this sniveling group of self-righteous wannabes to hit their fainting couches in protest that an actual sinner demands to be treated as Jesus commanded.

    And no, I don’t hate Christians. Not even raging bigots.

    Like a good Christian, I don’t hate them. I hate what they do. Love the whining, self-righteous little ahole, but hate what that sniveling self righteous little ahole does to make himself feel superior.

  17. Don’t forget…..Mercy triumphs over judgment….James 2:13

    Synonyms: mercy, leniency, clemency, charity

    Those nouns mean humane and kind, sympathetic, or forgiving treatment of or disposition toward others.

    Mercy is compassionate forbearance.

    Leniency implies mildness, gentleness, and often a tendency to reduce punishment.

    Clemency is mercy shown by someone with judicial authority.

    Charity is goodwill and benevolence in judging others: “With malice toward none, with charity for all … let us strive on to finish the work we are in” (Abraham Lincoln).

    Fruits of the Spirit —

  18. “…at least half of my Christian friends do not affirm homosexual erotic behavior as holy.” Meaning you do, Jonathan?

  19. For you, “Not Acting Badly” is your main commandment. The problem is that your anti-biblical pro-gay atheism, YOUR chosen religion, is how you determine what behaviors constitute “acting badly” or not. But me, I don’t share your religion, so maybe my “acting badly” criteria differs on some issues.

    Hey, do you remember Louis Giglio? Barack Obama liked that minister a lot because he’s into reaching the young people, social-justice, big youth-ish stuff.

    So Obama invited him to his Inauguration to do a prayer. Booked him solid. But then the libbies found out that Giglio had spoken one tiny gig — JUST ONE — against gay marriage 2 or 3 years prior. So immediately, Giglio was publicly DIS-invited. Even though he was booked solid.

    So if your message OPPOSES the religion of the people who are putting on the show, **why should they keep you on the show?** Sincere question, so tell me.

  20. Refusing to allow someone to perform after doing through the process of booking them, for entirely bigoted reasons, is not just malicious. It’s unprofessional and probably a breach of contract.

    To you, any act devoid of basic common decency is OK if the people on the receiving end are gay. Because your getting of God says it’s OK to treat them like garbage.

  21. Perhaps the events should renamed as the Oxymoronic Christian Music Festivals

  22. Gay people actually hate this guy. He married a woman and bred and had two kids all the while knowing he was gay and that his god wasn’t real-so phuck him. He deserves any pain for ruining so many lives!

  23. the scripture folk are bad guys. remember, all gods are made up-we change them and shape as we see fit. so-if you choose to make your god a bigot, youre human shiit-pretty simple.

  24. no, hes right-Trey chose to marry a woman knowing he was gay-he knew it. Then he chose to have kids. He chose to ruin lives. Hes crap

  25. “..entirely bigoted reasons” ??

    That’s where your pro-gay-activist Atheism and my biblical Christianity are sharply at odds, of course.

    The “reasons” are only “bigoted” according to YOUR chosen religion, not mine. Christian concerts are for singing and teaching about finding. practicing, and growing in Christ’s self-identity, NOT gay self-identity.

    Worship *God*, or worship *Gay.* Your choice, your call.
    But don’t show up at a God venue trying to worship Gay.

    That mess just don’t work, and there’s at least a few Christians left who are willing to stand on that point.

  26. So why was he booted from performing? Because he is gay. Bigoted reasons right there.

    Your “Biblical Christianity” is merely a panoply of proof texting and hysterics to justify acting indecently to others. A license for immoral conduct. Basic professionalism and civil conduct is so lacking that its presence among Christians who share your views is noteworthy.

  27. Maybe. But that is not why he was booted from the festival.

    But then again how often do fundies urge gay members to “marry their gay away”?

  28. Anti-gay discrimination is a cancer in the Christian religion
    that needs to be cut out.

    The following churches welcome gay members and embrace gay marriage: the Episcopal Church (United States)…the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America…Reform Judaism…Conservative Judaism…the Evangelical
    Lutheran Church in the U.S and Canada…the Quakers, the
    Presbyterian Church (USA), the Reformed Anglican Catholic
    Church, the Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (Salt Lake City, Utah), the
    United Church…the Dutch Reformed Church…the Affirming
    Pentecostal Church International, the United Reformed Church and several Baptist
    Churches among others and the number is growing…

  29. “Why was he booted from performing”, you ask? Let’s talk about it.

    No diss on Trey Pearson, but his publicly stated message is that Gay-Self-Identity is “who I am, and who I was made by God to be.” That’s not only a direct LIE against the Bible, that’s even a direct LIE against the Creator God Himself, (according to Genesis, Jesus, and the Bible’s statements against homosexual behavior.)

    That’s why Pearson needed to be booted from the Christian concert, Spuddie. Not bigotry, just Bible.
    The man is currently in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the Bible and Christ on this very public issue. No disrespect, no incivility, but the Bible is just plain clear on this issue. You already know that’s true, now don’t you?

  30. So, Ben, can you specify EXACTLY how the members of the “Joshua Fest” production team, (the stagehands who took a stand), “treated Trey Pearson badly” ?
    I don’t think you can, seriously. Neither can Spuddie for that matter.

    Given Trey Pearson’s publicly stated theological message, (and since that message absolutely contradicts the Bible, God, and Jesus), it’s NOT “treating anybody badly” for the Christian stagehands to say,

    “Hey look, we can’t be a part of Pearson’s publicly stated message, because that message is clearly anti-biblical and anti-Christian.
    We Christian stagehands at least have the right to NOT participate in his wrong message and performance, nor participate in a ‘Joshua Fest’ that helps to spread that wrong message. If that means our jobs are terminated, then so be it.”

  31. I missed where he or anyone else said he knew that “his god wasn’t real.” Could you or anyone else point me to where that is said? Thanks!

  32. Gee, I’m sorry.

    If it’s not too much trouble, can you show us the letter of patent where in the gay Goliath has appointed you its official philistine spokesperson to explain how we hate someone that most people have never heard of?

    Much appreciated.

    Big Gay Inc.

  33. So now, he was going to sing all about gay identity, instead of just singing.
    got it.

    And therein lies the proof. Like uppity black people who don’t know their place, there is just nothing worse than uppity gay people, who dare to show up in public.

  34. Sorry Billysees, but nobody was/is calling for “judgment” at all. Certainly the brave Joshua Fest stagehands didn’t call for any judgment of Pearson.

    All they indicated was that THEY could not be a part of Pearson’s publicly-stated message, and hence THEY could not be participants in a ‘Joshua Fest’ that accepted and helped to spread Pearson’s message. (A message that clearly OPPOSES the Bible, God, and Christ).

    They stated NO “malice”, no harshness, towards Pearson. They didn’t call for any scarlet letters.
    They were simply willing to accept loss of employment and pay the price to AGREE WITH their Bibles and their God.

    Are you as willing to accept Bible teachings about God’s design for marriage and sexuality, as you are to accept Bible teachings about the fruit of the Spirit?

  35. The man is gay and they booted him for being so. It wasn’t an issue when booking him. You are attacking Pearson for bring honest about his identity and being “uppity” about it. Just because you find excuses to avoid common decency, professionalism and ethical behavior in the Bible doesn’t mean it isn’t bigotry or acceptable.

  36. ” So LGBT Christians finally have a seat at the table.” 1 Corinthians 5:11 – New International Version

    But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

  37. Actually, Spuddie, you don’t know if the man is gay or not. You actually WANT him to get bogged down in the enslaving religion of gay self-identity.

    As Mr. Norman kindly pointed out, Pearson really DID try to walk in the right way for a while. Pearson once understood that his same-sex-temptations were NOT “what God created him to be”, but instead constituted a real serious problem in his life.

    He really DID try to stay with a good wife (yes, a FEMALE wife!!) and his precious little children. So Pearson really tried to honor God’s Word big-time, and he deserves credit on that.

    But for now, Pearson has accepted the standard LIES of the gay-self-identity activists, who enslave troubled Christians in hard chains. So yeah, Pearson gotta do his music stuff elsewhere, until he chooses to escape the Gay Goliath’s messed-up plantation.

  38. “How many of those stage hands will be voting for self proclaimed adulterer Donald trump? How many voted for adulterous, fornicating, unrepentant Newt ? How many of them are divorced for any reason except adultery?” All the sins you listed are forgivable sins. Unrepentant homosexuality is not forgivable. As long as the homosexuals continue to have sex with each other, the sin is not forgiven and it becomes intentional sin:
    Hebrews 10:26 – 26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
    Jesus said that He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin. Repentance is the way.

  39. You know what? Given the INSANE pressure that LGBT persons are put under in the evangelical Christian world to conform, conform, conform, none of this surprises me. NONE OF IT. Blaming Trey for doing what his culture tells him he should do–get married and have kids–is victim-blaming.

    The evangelical subculture has a horrible time dealing with adults who fail to follow the marry and have kids model. I’m a single, never-married, childless, middle-aged woman with a job, a house and a car. But I might as well be invisible in the evangelical church world, because I haven’t “grown up” by getting married.

    You guys need to FIX your awful family model before it destroys more people. If Trey hadn’t felt the extreme pressure within evangelicalism to conform, perhaps he would not have gotten married.

    Oh, by the way–you’re judgmental. So Christian. Jesus save us…

  40. Gosh, who did Jesus associate himself with? Tax collectors, prostitutes and other notorious sinners. When it comes to Paul v. Jesus, I’ll take Jesus any day of the week.

  41. RNS did two articles on the Pearson before. We know he is gay. You commented on those articles. All that stuff was covered before. We even both had a laugh about the awfulness of Christian Contemporary Music. I mentioned that people with talent wouldn’t stay in such a musically purile genre.

  42. But, Jesus did not suggest they remain in their sin. He told the woman caught in adultery, “Go and sin no more”.

  43. Thank you for showing us which assemblies have gone apostate! Blessings to you!

  44. Oh sure, Pearson says he is gay. Like I said earlier, Pearson has accepted some real serious, debilitating LIES from the Gay Goliath. It’s a bad situation, period.

    But I for one, refuse to accept the Gay Goliath’s lies — ESPECIALLY the one that’s marked “Once Gay Always Gay.” Pearson has fallen, but in the power of Jesus Christ and the willingness to repent, ANYBODY can get back up.

    Pearson don’t HAVE to be gay if he don’t WANT to be gay. He don’t have to accept the gay-theology poison if he don’t want to. Christ offers an alternative — Himself.

  45. Stopped reading after the second sentence. You went right off the rails by test point. Have a good weekend.

  46. There is no such thing as “just singing” at a Christian concert, Ben. The lifestyle speaks just as loudly as your lyrics, and people watch as well as listen.

    Besides, Pearson has already sent out his big “coming out” public letter to the social media, the national media, all his fans, even his own wife and kids.

    Clearly shows him embracing Gay-Self-Identity and even trying to publicly pin his own choice of Gay-Self-Identity on the Creator God Himself. Pearson offers NO hope of Christ’s healing and power in that letter. No divine salvation and deliverance from the chains, no escape from the plantation.

    You just know that mess ain’t right. Christ’s self-identity will dissolve Gay self-identity.

  47. Who is your God? Is it the God of the Bible or is it the gods of the culture? Who is in control? Do you control the context and therefore the meaning? Or do you let God the author of time, circumstances, and the Bible control his own Word?

    i say this with all love it breaks my heart about Pearson and his choice to leave his wife and pursue homosexuality (something God spoke against clearly in both the New and Old Testament). Have you ever thought why God spoke against it? Have you ever bought a watch? And on it says don’t put it in water. But normal it is in small little writing on the instruction manual that you threw away two seconds after opening it. By putting it in water you void the warranty. Homosexuality and sexual immorality both void the warranty if you will but God wrote it plain and clear. his choosing this life either as not trusting in the transformative power of Christ’s death on the cross and his power or if he actually doesn’t know who Christ is in reality. He is enslaving himself to sin in a very real and public way. In my opinion he needs prayer and some one to speak in his life Truth and stop itching his ears (1 Tim 4)

  48. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Wouldn’t matter if every person on Earth encouraged homosexuality, it would still be a sin.

  49. I don’t recall that he said that to the tax collectors and others. The woman who washed his feet, did he say, “Go and sin no more”? Nope. Go read Luke 7, he didn’t tell her to stop sinning. He forgave her sins and said, “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.”

    The average person loved being around Jesus because he wasn’t like the Pharisees, who are depicted as sniffy, judgemental types. Your Jesus is not the one I recognize. The one I recognize and follow is the guy who forgave those who killed him while he was hanging on the cross.

  50. I picked 2rump and newt for a reason– both continue to live in unrepentant sin, and yet not one of you good Christians (TM) even thought to call them on it. We all know that homosexuality is the only “sin” that gets your holy knickers into a thoroughly uncomfortable twist. I was pretty sure someone like you would manage to excuse heterosexual sin one more time as either unfortunate or inconvenient,

    Thanks for taking the bait, and proving my point.

  51. Thank you for demonstrating my point clearly, it’s not about sin. And certainly not about heterosexual sin.

    Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

    BTW! If you find homosex so loathsome, you

    1) aren’t doing it right, or

    2) should stop thinking about all of those hot, sweaty men.

  52. Oh. Wonderful! A good Christian that rejoices in the murder of innocent people!

    Ok, other good Christians! Let’s hear it! You knows what I’m looking for!

    And good sir, no matter how many of us you and your God-loving ilk kill, you will never ever kill whatever it is that resides in you.

    This conversation is ended.

  53. “it’s when I heard of the Orlando shooting for the first time and caught myself smiling.”

    Please bring this up the next time some Christian ignoramus spouts off that atheists are amoral and do not appreciate the sanctity of life. 🙂

  54. “There is no such thing as “just singing” at a Christian concert”

    Because calling what is performed at a Christian Contemporary concert “music” would be a complete misstatement of facts.

    “Don’t you realize, you are not making Christianity any better, you are just making rock and roll worse.”
    -Hank Hill

  55. Some people are not worth considering human. Thank you for demonstrating how immoral and worthless your version of Christianity is. Nothing more than convenient excuses for spineless bigots.

    Please don’t bother telling me how much I must hate Jesus or the Bible. Out of all the versions of Christianity, you chose to accept that interpretation of them which justifies such malicious ideas. That was the one which appealed to you. Its all you.

  56. Your “instruction manual” is merely a list of convenient excuses and carve outs to avoid any meaningful teachings of Jesus as to how to treat your fellow human beings.

    “That which is hateful to you, do not unto another: This is the whole Bible. The rest is commentary”

    “As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

    Jesus didn’t say, “…except gays, atheists and liberals”

    The excuses bigoted Christians have to avoid acting in a civil manner or showing basic common decency, are rife. We have all heard them before. Yet these same people have the nerve to lecture others about “morals and values”. I have yet to see any from that crowd.

  57. LMAO!

    I am sure you can tell the people belonging to the 500+ sects besides your own that they aren’t real Christians. See how that goes.

  58. Here’s the bottom line: the vast majority of Evangelicals would vote in favor of stripping gay people of their legal and human rights and criminalize them. They are unalterably dedicated to treating gay people as legal and social outcasts. Every major Evangelical organization and leader has called for reversing the Supreme Court’s rulings on marriage equality and private sexual conduct.

    Evangelical leaders like Franklin Graham would heartily support rounding up gay people and imprisoning them. Evangelicals went to places like Russia and several African nations to help them draft draconian laws against gay people.

    Evangelical Christians in Mississippi helped write and pass a law that, among other mistreatments of gay people, legalized the withholding of medical treatment to gay people by physicians. It was massively supported by Evangelicals all across America.

    There is an undying, deeply held hatred toward gay people by Evangelicals. See APracticalMan’s and floydlee’s comments below. They dehumanize and denigrate gay people at every turn. They do not want gay people treated decently, fairly, or humanely. They see no human value or worth of gay people. They have had absolutely zero mercy or simple human decency toward gay people.

    And of course, Evangelicals believe that every last gay person is damned to hell for all eternity.

    So, I call bulls— on this article. It’s an attempt to downplay the ongoing, well funded, and powerful Evangelical campaign to strip gay people of their legal and human rights.

  59. .
    “Unusual”, as in “long hair on men” or as in “God interceding on for the benefit of the Jews” … unless you think “God interceding for the benefit of the Jews” is an “abomination” — the original word, used in all these examples, including “two men using the temple virgin’s chambers”, is best translated as “unusual”.

    But, you believe what you want to believe, in spite of accurate facts.

  60. .
    So, if T-Rump remarries his original wife, then he can be forgiven, and voted for?

    Otherwise, he’s still sinning.

  61. .
    How irresponsible of you to claim anyone else can create disgust in you.

    Squeeze an orange, get orange juice, squeeze fast, slow, soft, hard, get orange juice, because that’s what’s inside.

    Inside you is disgust, and it’s 100% your fault, and your responsibility.

  62. .
    No one in The Pulse nightclub was having sex, and many were not gay.

    Your unholy fear turned hate is blinding you to even the slightest accuracy or appropriateness.

  63. .
    Jesus healed the male servant / sex companion of the Roman Centurion, and commented only on the Centurion’s faith, not their sex or sexuality.

    Same with prostitute Mary Magdalene and the woman accused of adultery who was about to be stoned — no comment on their sex or sexuality, only their faith.

    Jesus set an example of not caring about someone else’s sex or sexuality.

    Try it, it couldn’t hurt.

  64. I’d like to think that Jonathan’s premise that most “Traditionalists’ resistance is mostly rooted in conviction not hatred.” While I can’t argue that the bible does not declare homosexuality to be an abomination, the bible makes clear that unrepentant sin in any category is sufficient to condemn a sinner to perdition. The bible describes only one unforgivable sin, that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which I am given to understand is the holding of a wholly unrepentant spirit in one’s heart. To Sandi’s point, if the only legitimate sanction for divorce in the bible is adultery on the part of one’s marriage partner, and adultery is defined as a sexual relationship outside of marriage (which I tend to define in heterosexual terms, spiritually speaking), by my reading of the bible that does not free the adulterer to remarry after divorce, for how can an adulterer repent of their sin if they continue in a relationship with their partner in adultery, or some other person. It is my position that if a person violates their vow of marriage and will not be reconciled with their spouse, or the spouse will not reconcile with them (which I do not endorse), they are not then free to remarry EVER, otherwise it is a continuing condition of unrepentant adultery, even if they have been divorced by the unoffending spouse. I may be wrong theologically speaking on this question, but it begs the question of “true” repentance. On one point the bible is fundamentally clear. Unrepentant sin of any character is enough to condemn a soul. When I sin I endeavor to confess it to God as soon as I can and strive to stay confessed up, trusting in God’s mercy if I sometimes fail in that, at the same time endeavoring to minimize the sin in my life. Some Christians hold to a doctrine of “perfectibility” in this life, I find that to be a position founded on hubris. The point of this longwinded monologue is that while I oppose active homosexuality within the church, and I would make every effort to persuade a gay believer to forsake homosexuality, I’m not going to make gay people the hobgoblin of society, the rest of us have enough to answer for on our own.

  65. So is seafood. Shrimp is called an “abomination” 4 times more. LOL

    And, if your religion calls on you to “shame and punish”, you should rethink your religion.

  66. This is your American “Religious Freedom” at work, folks…

    Christians getting to fire someone, not because of the quality of the work (clearly, they hired the singer because of his talent and the “Christians like” songs he sings)… But because the Christians can’t let go of their bigotry

  67. I can make the exact same argument as that for those who divorce and remarry. They are committing adultery every single day. Yet to a one, these people will vote for Trump who should be put in the same category as gays by Christians.

    What is really at play here is that these Pharisees want to pick a sin that they do not commit and hold it up as the sin above all others. They cherry pick a verse or two to justify their hate. They’ve done the same with slavery, jim crow, women’s rights, gay rights and it will continue.

  68. According to Matthew 25:40, you just rejoiced in the shooting of Jesus.

    And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

  69. Maybe not even then, because he would have to divorce #3 to get back with #1.

  70. You cannot change what Scripture says ==> Matthew 25:40, Mark 12:31. They’re pretty explicit and are rarely used by the Christian right.

    And if you want to discuss the Greek translations, know that they didn’t have a word for people who maintained a same-sex relationship. They only had words for particular acts.

  71. Not true. The Bible talks about particular sex acts. It never mentions someone who identifies as gay. It couldn’t since it wasn’t until the 1850s that the word was coined, and it wasn’t inserted into the Bible replacing earlier translations until the 1950s.

    Please find me a verse that says a chaste gay man is sinning.

  72. “There are plenty of exceptions, and you don’t have to locate a Westboro Baptist wingnut to discover Christian ignorance and hatred toward LGBT persons.” …. Found one.

  73. Perhaps the most loathsome comment I’ve read in a while, well, since the minister that said the 4 year old girl was willing, so too close to call.

  74. “God’s Word and standards do not change, but man’s standards constantly
    . . .”

    You say that “man’s standards constantly change” as if it were a bad thing! Man’s standards change because people discard ancient fallacies as they accumulate increasing knowledge gained through the use of reason and evidence to grow, learn, and discover. People who are open to change are finally realizing that the existence of homosexuality causes no harm whatsoever to anyone, and thus it is not immoral despite the views of change-phobic people still clinging to the writings of ignorant/bigoted ancient people. And furthermore, advocating the full social acceptance of gay people strengthens family bonds, and thus it is the authentic pro-family position.

    And, by-the-way, “God’s [so called] Word” is nothing more than the word of delusional and/or fraudulent men claiming to speak for a god. And then later people decided to label it “Scripture” in an effort to elevate its perception above the level of ordinary writings, and also to convey the illusion of authority.

  75. Re: “Described as an abomination in the eyes of God, homosexuality is particularly revolting and provokes the worst in men.”

    For your edification, many things are described in your Bible as “abominations.” Here’s a little sampling (complete with chapter & verse):

    Eating shellfish (Lv 11:10-12)
    Birds that creep on all fours (presumably, bats) (Lv 11:20)
    The idols of other gods (Dt 7:25)
    Sacrificing blemished livestock (Dt 17:1)
    Divorced couples remarrying (Dt 24:4)
    Manufacturing an idol (Dt 27:15)

    If you’re willing to agitate against gays because your Bible tells you they’re “abominations,” why do you not also agitate against eating shellfish and the remarriage of divorced couples? Aren’t there a lot of things you should be railing against, aside from just gays?

    If you aren’t willing to go after those topics, but only choose to take on gays, then your claim that you’re doing so because they’re “abominations” in your Bible, is invalidated. So make up your mind. Are you against all Biblical “abominations?” You can’t just pick one. You have to hate them all, as your YHWH does.

  76. Thank you, Edward. A very elegant restating of my usual position from the opposite point of view.

  77. You’d be safer, honey. No more thinking of all of that hot sweaty…

  78. I wouldn’t say categorically that they have no intention of committing this sin. They either have no intention, or they have EVERY intention.

    Exhibit A: Ted Haggard. Exhibit B: one well known announcer for the American Fanily Association, who couldn’t answer a simple, direct question: “would you…?”

  79. LOL? tell that to all of the Christians who are designated as “Not True Christians” by the people who claim to be “True Christians.”

    OH, wait. JUst find a mirror.

  80. “”Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:36-40‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    Strangely in your quotation you have only said the second command that command is only to come after the first. I am loving “the gays atheists and liberals” and a part of that love is telling them the bridge is out on the road of their life. It is how I want to be treated. I want to be told where I am wrong and where I need to be corrected in life so I can correct and come into a proper relationship with God so I can follow the first comanment as well as the second. Love is saying the hard things with truth and compassion. If you treated your credit card as free money and racked up 20,000 in debt. Your dad and bank manager tell you to stop you have to pay it back but everyone else just told you your fine your doing a great job, don’t worry about it, live the way you want to live. When they took your card from you and said its time to pay. Who would you be mad at? The person who told you to stop spending recklessly or the one who told you it’s fine. It is love to correct wrong thinking. Some people don’t do it out of love (westboro) but pride. Their pride is evident by their lack of communication and empathy.

  81. I dunno…..I would say with divorce and remarriage that they are not the unforgiveable sin.

  82. As I said, excuses for treating others badly. Looking for carve outs, exceptions and legalistic work around to avoid actually following very simple instructions to act decently. Claiming behavior that no sane person would call concern or loving is so doesn’t make you sound any less hateful. Discriminating, ostracizing and outright attacking people is not showing concern and love. It is a sick self serving dishonest garbage response.

    Save your “I’m pointing out their sinful ways with hope of redemption” for the more gullible members of your sect. Nobody else is buying it. You are simply acting maliciously but are too spineless to be honest.

  83. There is no scripture to show that he was a sex companion. That is just more lies of the homosexual activist Peter.
    Mary stopped her prostitution. The woman caught in adultery was told to go and sin no more. No need to discuss their sexuality.
    Jesus Christ did care about “sexuality” aka: sin. He said that a man should not sleep with another man as with a woman. It is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

  84. nope. Jesus came to forgive our sin. He isn’t remarrying a different woman every day. Your sins could be forgiven also Peter.

  85. Actually, there is only one unforgivable sin, that is rejecting Jesus – as you do, Ben.

  86. Your Jesus is not the Christ who said, “You shall not sleep with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.” You are more than welcome to yours, but it (an idol) will not get you to Heaven.

  87. I don’t accept that a verse in Leviticus 18:22 is straight from the lips of God, and not from a writer later. Yes, I am, according to evangelical Protestants, a heretic. But I don’t see the Bible as a text straight from heaven, which is the position Muslims take with regards to the Quran. I see the Bible as a text to be wrestled with.

    The continued use of “clobber verses” against homosexuality by people like you is similar to the use of pro-slavery “clobber verses” by Southern Evangelicals in the first half of the 19th century to support Southern slavery. We don’t accept chattel ownership of human beings today (even though it’s very much all through the Bible) and we will come to a time when LGBT people are treated as human beings.

    And, to be blunt, I’d rather go to hell first than worship your “god.” He’s not Jesus. He’s something else, but not Jesus, the one who forgave his killers.

  88. No, you know who your uncle was. A pedophile. That isn’t us, no matter how much you wish to blame all gay people for his crime. I hope he was put into prison, but it still wasn’t us. It just explains YOU.
    I suspect that he was your nice heterosexually married uncle. That’s the usual pattern.
    I’m sorry for your pain. but it still wasn’t me or anyone I know. Get yourself some help to deal with your rage.

  89. in other words, its all about you being antigay, not your faith at all..

  90. Ok then Spuddie in response to your comment I have two questions. Who is God to you? And what is the Bible to you?

  91. Why do you need hide behind God and the Bible to justify your behavior? If it were so good and loving, then everyone would recognise it as such. Regardless of belief. Everyone knows when they are treated well.

    But you know you are acting indecently to others. Acting in a malicious manner. So you feel a need to justify it somehow. Religion is a great tool to get good people to do bad things or to excuse bad people doing mad things.

    Who God and the Bible are to me is immaterial. I don’t use either to justify my behavior. Moral behavior is about seeing how your actions impact others. Not out of self interest with divine reward or punishment.

  92. Re: “Pick a side or don’t call yourself a believer.”

    Good. Then go wage war against ALL of your YHWH’s abominations. All of them! Including the eating of shellfish and bats, and the remarriage of divorced couples. Get to it!

    Re: “[Gays have] soiled marriage …”

    They have? How? By what mechanism? And what, exactly, does it even mean that married has been “soiled”? Explain — and be specific.

    Re: “… demanded access to our children …”

    Huh? What are you even talking about?

    Re: “… spread contagion across the world …”

    The world is already full of “contagion,” regardless of whether or not gays exist at all.

    Re: “… and offend God himself.”

    So what? Why should it matter? Being “offended” is part of life. Lots of things and people “offend” me. For instance, I find “reality TV” offensive (mainly because it’s insipid tripe that’s scripted and staged, and not the least bit “real”). It doesn’t mean I run around screeching and railing against “reality TV” or any of the many other things that offend me.

    Is your YHWH so infantile that s/he/it can’t handle being “offended”? If so, s/he/it should grow the heck up and start acting like an adult. And so should his equally-infantile followers. There’s too much immaturity in the world as it is; we don’t need your deity demanding even more juvenile behavior on the part of his/her/its followers, in his/her/its name.

  93. Why? Just like like Shrimp, I love homosexual.

    What’s the difference between the Easter Bunny and Jesus?

    You eventually learned the truth that the Easter bunny was fake

  94. You can keep wishing that as much as you like. I’m not anti-gay. I want to see you go to Heaven and living a life blessed by Jesus. You are the one who is rejecting Him. You are the one who has chosen Hell over Heaven. You are the one preaching the lie that homosexuality is ok. I would say that you are anti-gay.

  95. “And, to be blunt, I’d rather go to hell first than worship your “god.” You’ll get your wish if you continue to follow an idol. blessings.

  96. Don’t worry about Spuddie – he says the same thing to everyone else also

  97. And you have yet to acknowledge your own acceptance of unrepentant sin as long as it is heterosexual unrepentant sin.

    I’m sure you are buying what you are selling.

  98. What exactly did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing…not a peep. But seemingly, all knowing men like you have had a lot to say about it. You know Jesus did save the Centurion’s lover right? Oh…drats…something got through the conservative filters…

  99. Haha.

    So, the first group of normal guys who wrote the old fable.. Well.. They got the shellfish and lots of other parts wrong.

    But, the second group of guys who re-wrote the new fable… No, no, We are sure they got it right… This time.

    You’d think if a God really had given his input into writing his one and only book.. He would have got it right, the 1st time.

  100. “These things I command you, so that you will love one another. “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭15:17-19‬ ‭ESV‬‬

  101. You do nothing to dissuade me of the notion that certain Christians proof text the Bible for excuses to act badly.

  102. You do know that Jesus is the Christ? You do know that the Christ is God? You do understand Leviticus 18:1 – ” And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying….” Now, put that all together, and Christ said that homosexuality is a sin.

  103. I acknowledge my sin every time the Lord makes me aware of another one. Unrepentantly committing sin does not lead to salvation, Ben. That is what homosexuals do.

  104. Homosexual activists need to lie because they have no platform to stand on. We just need to keep shooting the lies down.

  105. Not at all. For thousands and thousands of years, people have been translating Scripture. Now that the homosexuals don’t like the reality of what they are doing, scripture is suddenly wrong? Any “bible” that does not agree with scripture is wrong, my friend. Homosexuality is a sin.

  106. I see your point – although we are off topic – because I once believed that way and I am not divorced, nor do I endorse divorce. There is one unforgivable sin, as we both know. The difference between a homosexual continuing in homosexual sex and a person divorcing and remarrying….the person divorcing will be forgiven the divorce and it will be done and over with – as far as the east is from the west when renounced – like any sin. The person then, on a regular basis does not continue to divorce their partner as a homosexual has sex on a regular basis. All unconfessed sin is bad. To confess their sin and go on with their life will not be held against them – unless it is unconfessed. That’s where you and I differ. The divorce, confessed is gone and they are free to remarry. I think if the person continues to sin, knowing that it is a sin, it then become iniquity – which is what homosexuals are guilty of, causing their unconfessed sin to be worse – aside from the fact that they are sinning against themselves also..
    I don’t see homosexuals as the “hobgoblin” of society either. I stand against their lies that they are doing nothing wrong, possibly causing other to continue in the sin to perdition. I believe that homosexual activists are wrong, hurting others, and cause the suicide of many, many precious people who don’t know that Jesus will cleanse them of their sin and they can go to Heaven. I’ve argued with “pastors” who feel homosexuality is ok, but they could not overcome the Word, that says it is a sin.

  107. not all men. and maybe that’s the point that the blood-thirsty savages of the Bronze Age missed when they concocted this text. After all, in their eyes, the only use for sex between men was in war–rape of one’s enemies when you defeat them. And maybe that’s why the authors of that text considered man-on-man sex an “abomination.”

    Whatever else is the case, this shows that the biblical texts didn’t develop in a vacuum: every one of them were developed in a social-cultural context that included a particular “religious” perspective and agenda.

    What’s hard to grasp is that, to this day, some people still treat such texts as some kind of magic book that their god whispered into the ears of dozens–no, hundreds–of individuals. They take no account of the generations, centuries of copying, recopying, editing, chopping up and otherwise slanting the texts to fit their agenda.

    And that work on written text couldn’t begin until Israel developed a written language in the time of Solomon, approx, 1000 BCE., which follows a period of at least four centuries of being passed around by word of mouth. Well, anybody who’s ever played the gossip game knows how that works.

    One would think that, all of this being the case, APracticalMan like you would become just a little suspicious and circumspect about how these texts are applied by those who aren’t Bronze Age barbarians. We reject PLENTY in those texts in the modern world: why are people like you so stuck on this one?

    Just have a look at this for starters:

  108. How blind you are when you read that as a literal translation. God was not just speaking of Food in this verse! He was speaking of human beings as well! Read it again!

  109. When you can explain how I gave up Heterosexuality before I even knew what sex was. Come and talk to me about changing my nature.

  110. As soon as you started to personally attack me I knew that there was no reaching you.

  111. There is no “Centurion’s lover” in the Bible. Nowhere in the texts at all. You’re just faking it on this one.

  112. As soon as you started in with the “I am just trying to show then the errors of their ways”, I knew you were full of it. Self serving dishonest BS Christians tell themselves and others to excuse actions lacking any notion of common decency.

  113. Ben, he’s very disturbed, and he even disclosed why. He’s evidently unable even to step back enough to see that what has happened to him doesn’t define the whole world. A psychiatrist would probably hang PTSD and Paranoid Disorder with Delusional Features on him. You are very right: the man’s in a pretty deep, dark place and needs help.

  114. “These texts didn’t develop in a vacuum: every one of them has a social-cultural context that gives rise to the so-called religious texts”

    Which is why Jews can read the Old Testament and find cause for decent behavior, charity, and responsibility for the weak and suffering. Yet Christians see the same text as excuses for harsh draconian behavior and indifference to others. The Jews kept all that commentary, recorded debates, translation issues and oral history in their studies. They also ignored most of the stuff which is anti-social in a modern context. Christians just took the text in isolation and ignored all that other stuff. Its why even the most devout Jews avoid the fiction of Biblical Literalism.

  115. “or you are with those attempting to restore decency to the nation in the name of Christ.”

    You just recently applauded a mass murderer. There is no decency in you.

  116. Yet Jesus abrogated those strictures on food “Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”
    Matt 15:17-20
    Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Col 2:16-17

  117. what do you think rejecting Jesus is and false teaching about Jesus – blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

  118. Ahhh…I see how you have interpreted it. I love how good Christians run back to Leviticus when it suits your argument. Sadly you are most likely waiting in line at the Red Lobster right now.

  119. No interpretation needed – Christianity 101. Christ’s word, is Christ’s word – whether it is OT or NT. He did say that he came to fulfill the Law, or did you miss that?

  120. God does not exist, in Spuddie’s world. Atheism is the sole source of Spuddie’s ethics.

    And that’s the problem, of course. Atheism is three shades past useless.

  121. From what we know of Roman culture and their usage of that word for servant, it is very possible that this servant was used for sex.
    In the culture, gay acts between a free man and a boy or a slave was acceptable, but not between equals. The NT texts against man-on-man sexual acts may protest against the type of sexual violence of that culture.

    Assuming this slave was sexually used by the centurion, did Jesus just approve of non-consensual man-violating-slave acts? No. Jesus healed someone, and there is no reason for him to discriminate against sexual abuse victims when healing.

    He recommended the man’s faith in believing Jesus can heal, but he did not, and I believe he would not approve of sexual slavery.

  122. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 – “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

  123. “What it tells us?”

    It tells us what we already knew. Ignorance and hipocracy, thy names are Evangelism.

  124. Why do you bother? It’s like trying to teach a hamster to do arithmetic. It’s not that complicated, but it’s never gonna happen!

  125. It used to be unacceptable to eat meat on Friday, and now no one even talks about it. Divorce used to be nearly unknown, and now it’s like leaves on trees. Skipping Church used to be Unthinkable, and now it’s pretty much standard operating procedure. I assure you, the perception of what’s “Christian” changes substantially over time. How long it takes before Christians come to the realization that hating their gay children, brothers, sisters, neighbors, fellow parishioners, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera is immortal remains to be seen.

  126. Recorded history of North America accurately describes how CHRISTIANS BROUGHT FILTH, PERVERSION, AND CONTAGION to these shores. Still waiting for Christians to atone for the decimation and obliteration of hundreds if not thousands of cultures with the same violence as Torquemada. Oh but they willing celebrate one of the main carriers of Christian perversion and filth, Cristoforo Colombo

    Square that circle Mr. Practical.

  127. So are you telling this to gay people, or are you going to tell it to the revilers and slanderers on this page?

  128. Because I’m a good atheist, with empathy for people in pain. And I see one more place where Antigay hatred has hurt and maimed yet another innocent victim, who wants to perpetuate the cycle of pain and abuse because of that pain.

    As a Jewish boy, I was raised with the idea of tikkun– healing and rectification. Quite the opposite of “Gawd is gonna getcha ’cause I don’t like ya.”

  129. I agree. But I don’t like seeing people in entirely rectifiable pain, especially around this issue.

  130. Plus, I get a thril out of watching all of the True Christians (TM) posting all about Corinthians alleged condemnation of gay people, and failing to call him out on it.

    I just love the smell of freshly brewed hypocrisy, with a hint of sanctimony, in the morning,

  131. When you start to repent of your revilings and slandering of gay people, send me a postcard, dear.

  132. That your uncle molested an innocent child was his sickness.

    That you want to blame innocent people who had nothing to do with it, and who are as horrified by child molestation as any normal person would be– well, that’s YOUR sickness.

    Please get help.

  133. Why is it that when a Christian of your type attacks– excuse me, “disagrees”– with gay people, it’s love. But when we disagree with you–and Spuddie isn’t gay, BTW– it’s hate and attacks?

  134. So you advocate the death penalty for gay people? Or, Are you just going to do a cop out and explain how it isn’t you, it’s God.

  135. And before, you said that blasphemy was the only unforgivable sin.

    You can’t keep your story straight,

  136. You will go to any lengths, even denying what Jesus actually said, in order to have your little Antigay vendetta.

    Someone’s gonna burn! someone’s gonna burn!

  137. I haven’t denied anything Jesus said. Jesus offered forgiveness to everyone. You keep wanting to create an unforgivable sin and there is only one – rejecting Jesus.

  138. First of all, I’m not your “dear”. I don’t revile and slander homosexuals. That is just your defensiveness. Blessings Ben.

  139. A Christian would not hate their homosexual children, etc. We are here to help them to get to Heaven, to know Jesus’ blessings and the joy of worshipping Him – not the road to perdition that they think they have chosen. Jesus came to forgive and cleanse us of our sin, of which homosexuality is one. No one needs to remain in that bondage. If you see that as hatred, well, then, think again.

  140. Spuddie directly called me spineless, malicious, bigoted and self serving. I never once directly attack him as a human being. If I have please point it out and I will apologize.

    In my defence I have never treated a gay person any different then anyone else. I have always treated them with dignity and respect. In the case of Pearson. He claims to be a Christian. In the view of that Christians are called to be different from the world and live a holy life in line with the Bible. Which is why I have made this post to begin with. I feel like I have written with love and respect.

  141. It wasn’t the Corinthians who condemned homosexuals. It was Christ.

  142. Leviticus 20:13 – If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.” If homosexuals don’t renounce their sin – like anyone else – and ask Jesus to be their Saviour – accepting that He died for their sins- homosexuals will die in the sin – as stated by Christ.

  143. Thank you for proving that this country is a Christian hegemony that has sanctioned rape, murder, and inquisition for decades. So you Christians may keep your misogyny , mendacity, and mercenary ideology. I want no part of it.

  144. “Baloney”?

    You think Jesus would approve of a non-consensual man-violating-his- slave act, or of keeping someone as a sex slave?

    You think Jesus did not commend the centurion’s faith?

    You think he will discriminate against sexual abuse victims when healing?

  145. you have a curious way of being sure about “what it is” for God. And of understanding the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel isn’t to validate your hatred, but you seem a long way from being able to achieve that insight. None of the things you’re trumpeting seem to have voice anywhere in the Sermon on the Mount or Jesus’ teaching on what the two most important commandments are. You, sir, are stuck in a hell not necessarily of your own making; but you seem highly committed to holding onto it as a self-definition.

  146. The nature of the sin of homosexuality is completely different than other sins. If you miss that, you miss the entire bible.

  147. The reason sex is so much fun is, by Gods plan and by Gods will we are somehow partakers and join Him in creation. We are
    Co-creators with Him, It is the mysterium maximum. I am called “father” of my children, but they are children of God?
    Homosex has thrown this in the trash. That’s why it is so shameful. Eating shrimp? Not so much

  148. Catholics are 100% against the marrying of divorced.
    Catholics have been believing this for 2000yrs

  149. Yeah Native Americans were completely perfect before we got here?

  150. Westboro baptist church is comprised of like 10 people?
    They just want attention and the Christian hating media is
    Happy to give it

  151. If u don’t understand gays are different than straights go read craigslist. The difference is stunning.
    Ave. men seeking women ad… Looking for someone to settle down with and get to know. Movie? Dinner? Walk?
    Ave. men seeking men ad…. Looking to get my D….. Sucked

  152. and yet elsewhere in Matthew Jesus says that not one jot of tittle of the law will pass away before the Kingdom is fulfilled. Seems to contradict, doesn’t it? See why it’s absurd to use the bible as “proof texts”?

  153. Leviticus also says you can kill your kids of they smart-mouth you. you’re really on thin ice.

  154. AP – Isn’t the Bible much more clear about divorce and adultery? Adultery even ranks high enough to make the Ten Commandments. BTW, Proverbs 6:16-19 lists a good many more abominations.

  155. Matthew 19:9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” Why do we ignore this and the dozen other scriptures that speak of divorce and adultery?

  156. AP – Excuse me? I do not remember seeing a memo that God appointed YOU to be the judge. You have no idea a person is sexually active or not. If there are, it certainly is between them and God.

  157. Ben – AP most probably is a Trump supporter. Interesting how adultery is perfectly acceptable to people like him.

  158. bullchit.n You need to learn what a pedophile is too. Your ignorance is showing.

  159. AP – LOL. A pedophile is into children. A pedophile is most always a heterosexual male.

  160. That doesn’t sound like many of my college buddies or the single guys I work with. Sure doesn’t seem they want to settle down. They just want to get laid.

  161. Dito – Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law! I do need some advice from you regarding some other elements of God’s Laws:

    1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

  162. Dito – Matthew 19:9 tells us “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

  163. Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law! I do need some advice from you regarding some other elements of God’s Laws:

    My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

  164. Kitten, Why is it that you assume every person (straight or gay) is sexually active? I know several gays and several straights who are non sexual. You say that Donald Trump can just keep committing adultery and ask for forgiveness each time. yeah.

  165. It figures. From everything that you have posted here it seems you certainly would be pleased about that shooting. You Sir are not a Christian. You are a vile, disgusting pos.

  166. Define completely perfect. Hope you’re not implying that Europeans were.
    The People were doing rather well. They weren’t befouling their environment with feces and offal. They were taking care of all within their community. They had their own ideology within their tribes.

  167. Well n Mexico City area they were sacrificing innocent lives by ripping their beating hearts out. Not good for anyone last time I checked.
    If Europeans were or are so bad then how come Manhattan is worth so much more now than then????? I’m pretty sure 99% of them would rather live in a house with electricity and running water than a teepee mid January any time.

  168. Thank you for being willing to do all that hard “research.” It’s a dirty job, but you rose to the occasion, took the task in hand and pumped away until you finished.

  169. And thank you for once again proving that when it comes to gay people, a certain class of so called Christian simply don’t care what bilge they make up.

  170. So you did go with the cop out.

    Is that what being q Christian is about? Not ever taking responsibility?

    Of course it is.

  171. Of course you feel you condemn with love and respect. Of course you feel you treat gay people like everyone else. I wouldn’t expect a single thing different.

    I have been told by so many Christians how they love me, they just hate my sin loving, child molesting, disease spreading, civilization corrupting, god hating, family destroying, military demoralizing, faith despising, freedom endangering, sin delighting, morality despising, nature rebelling, god defying, Chrstianity insulting, promiscuity loving, Rome declining, sexuality perverting, faith hating, religion denigrating, marriage destroying, military endangering, free-speech curbing, on-Jesus crapping, society undermining, innocent recruiting, marriage attacking, holiness oppressing, family eroding, sacred institution destroying, god’s-messengers-victimizing, speech denying, future-of-humanity threatening, perversion flaunting, Scouts infiltrating, priesthood undermining, virtue despising, muslim loving, and chicken-sandwich abhorring…


    And really, how could anyone find hate in that?

  172. Christ is our shield He could be yours also.
    Psalm 28:7 – New International Version

    The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and he helps me. My heart leaps for joy, and with my song I praise him.

  173. Did I say that about Trump? I believe you are reporting what you wished I had said.
    As far as homosexuals go – to dwell upon the sin and to fantasize about the sin, is the equivalent to committing the sin. Christians resist satan.

  174. TRUMP 2016. Adultery can’t compare to Hillary attacking rape victims

  175. So what? Divorced couples remarry all the time. To my knowledge, despite this being very legal, I’ve never heard of the Catholic Church, or any other sect, demanding that remarriage of divorced couples being outlawed.

    Yet, the Catholic Church agitates that gays’ rights be taken away from them all the time, and in practice, it treats them as subhuman.

    Again, if you’re against one “abomination” (i.e. homosexuality) then you have to be against ALL of them (including divorced couples remarrying). So as I said … get to it already.

  176. First of all Mark….The Old Testament laws are basically, civil, ceremonial and moral. Jesus fulfilled the civil and ceremonial and brought the moral laws into the New Testament. He also gives us grace that unless we accept Him as Lord and Saviour – renouncing our sin and following Him, we will all die because of our sin. He died for His own. He gives those who don’t accept His free gift until they die for the punishment they deserve. That is called “grace”. For they who chose to reject Him while alive, He will honour that decision after they die. That is called Hell – the absence of God.
    I hope this helps you.

  177. The servant was not a homosexual. There is no indication that he was and that fallacy is another example of the lies of the homosexual activists to enslave people in sin. Blessings;

  178. Catholic law is against divorce and remarriage. I once read an article by a gay guy. He said the TV media told him “do as u feel” and he was miserable. He said the govt. said “do as u feel” and he was ready to commit suicide. He said the schools and univerdities said “do as u feel” and he was sick to death of narcicisim. Then one day he picked up the catholic catechism and read the 3 paragraphs about homosexuals. It said “do good be good be holy all. Everyone everybody. Rich. Poor. Straight. Gay. All. He became celebate and happy. And chaste. And all his so called gay friends left him. This is Catholicism

  179. Using proof text taken out of the context of the central theme of God’s redemption of a particular people it would seem to contradict.

  180. Because it would seriously inconvenience heterosexuals, and require the removal of a rather large log which aids their vision in seeing very small specks.

  181. When I was young, I thought Santa claus was Jesus as an old man.

  182. We are co-creators with god?
    The megalomania of the super-super religious is inspiring.

  183. Catholics are not, not by a long shot.
    The Church, however, composed as it is of celibate, unmarried men, are sure to believe it.

  184. Santa Claus was the bishop of Myra 343ad. Jesus was is the savior of the world.

  185. You should read about the conquistadors’ atrocities while they were forcing Catholicism on the Mexicans. It was very nearly as charming, all the more so since it was the people of gentle jesus.

  186. Isn’t that nice that gods word never changes, except when it does? God’s word didn’t change sandi. Someone divided up the told testament into these so called different laws. God didn’t do it because god’s word doesn’t change. a man did it. A man who wanted his bacon sandwich and shrimp cocktail.
    And so do you.

  187. Oh boy, a new twist. That’s what ya got to give credit to religious folks for.

    Like crazy glue – You stick with a bad idea, no matter how foolish.

  188. Says you.

    You know no more about what your pretend gods say, since he has never spoke to you.. Or anyone

    There are about 4200 different gods worshiped today. 4200!!
    Some people think 4199 of those gods are fake.
    Everyone else thinks 4200 are fake

  189. That’s rich

    You’re upset that I’m comparing two fictional characters together, but you’ll toss around calling actual people an abomination… And claim a loving religion.


  190. Bad ideas don’t last 2000yrs as the Catholic Church has. It’s the gays who “believe” in bad ideas and hince jump off bridges at record rates.
    These are the simple hard facts. Sad to say

  191. I understand your refusal to acknowledge the truth Ben. One day you will have to. Please assure that it isn’t too late.

  192. Some people simply don’t spend the effort to understand the distinctions between the Old Testament and the New, the nuances of the language, as well as the “legal’ and practical differences between the Covenants.. The texts as you and I know do not contradict but rather compliment one another when assessed carefully. Ultimately Scripture illuminates Scripture.

  193. .
    There is no scripture ever that delineates anything that is obvious to the writers and to their intended audience.

    Leviticus is not attributes to Jesus, and was written by people who had long since died when Jesus is reported to have been born and subsequently spoke.

    For you to attribute to Jesus words that existed prior to Jesus is fanciful on your part, presumably because you believe God the Father and Jesus the Son are one and the same, so all things attributed to one are also attributed to the other, such as when Jesus the Son is reported to have said “… Father, why have you forsaken me …”, that was Jesus the Son talking to Himself … or God the Father talking to Himself … or God the Father talking to Jesus the Son … or … you lost me.

    The original word you are looking for translates best as “unusual”, not “abomination”, as in “… long hair on a man …” … or … “… God interceding for the benefit of the Jews …” — are all “unusual”, using the same word for all three in the original writing … unless you think “… God interceding for the benefit of the Jews …” is an “abomination”.

    And, the original reference is to two men using the temple prostitute’s chambers — that is what is ‘unusual’ in the original writing … are you suggesting that it’s okay for one man to use the temple prostitute’s chambers then?

    Regardless, @sandiluckins:disqus, this is all extra-legal and has nothing to do with Constitutionally protected equal rights for all with no discrimination in government or in public accommodations.

  194. .
    ‘Gay’ and ‘homosexual’ are contemporaneous terms, the concept raising back into acceptance after many puritanical years of denigration, but in the time of the original writing, Roman soldier’s male companions just included sex in their daily servant’s duties, there was nothing special worth noting for the writers at the time — everyone knew … and as I said, the point of the story was the faith of the Centurion, not the sexuality of the Centurion or his male sex companion.

    My point is that in the time of Jesus, men having sex together was not remarkable, even for Jesus, who, when the opportunity to comment arose, commented only on the faith of those involved.

    Do a little research on Roman soldiers and their companions.

  195. .
    Do you even know the translation chain between what you read today in modern English and original sources?

    There is no ‘sudden’ or ‘wrong’ about original sources, they have said the same thing since they were written — the word ‘abomination’ never appeared in any original writing, and is an inaccurate injection by later translators, plus, the word has evolved over recent years from it’s origin, but it never aligned with the original non-English writing, which is better translated as ‘unusual’.

    You may not understand, and therefore fear, other people’s sexuality, but that has nothing to do with original writings.

    Regardless, ‘sin’ is a verb, yet ‘homosexuality’ is a noun, you probably mean “homosexual sex”, but people themselves merely existing in the womb and after birth cannot in and of themselves “be sin”.

    So, the musician playing on stage was not having “homosexual sex” at the time, and therefore was not sinning by any standard at the time, and therefore the stage hands who refused to support him were projecting their own imaginations, which was probably a sin for them, but wholly inaccurate and inappropriate regarding the musician.

  196. .
    Slavery was common ( and stoning to death, and crucifixion, and child brides, and multiple wives, and brothers inheriting their dead brother’s wives, and chopping off of body parts as justice, and the annihilation of other cultures, and more ), and Jesus is not reported to have said anything about any of the common goings on of their day, Jesus accepted them all as normal and not remarkable

    My point is that sexuality was not on Jesus’s radar, so who are we to judge?

  197. Very astute !

    I opine that we all have different dispositions concerning our human weaknesses that we must struggle with. Though we often fail in our lifelong battles with them and repeat them in our sinful weakness does not nullify the everlasting grace of forgiveness God offers us in our repentance and asking for His forgiveness trusting that Jesus has already paid the penalty for those sins…. for ANY sin other than the one of rejecting His forgiveness.
    We will never stop sinning but Jesus knows our every weakness and will help us trust in Him for His forgiveness throughout our lives.

    ◄ 1 Corinthians 10:13 ►
    No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

  198. There are no degrees of sin in God’s eyes. Only finite humans rate them in connection with criminal law for the sake of proportional punishment for those crimes.

    Homosexuality is a sin as much as antigay bigotry is a sin … no more – no less.

  199. EVERY sin against God warrants shame and punishment – which we bring upon ourselves.

    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

  200. You realize that by listing “crucifixion”, “child brides”, etc. as “things not on the radar of Jesus” , and then saying that sexuality not being on the radar of Jesus, “so who are we to judge” is not very good for the point you are trying to make?

    In other words, do you believe crucifixion, child brides, and chopping off body parts as justice should not be judged either?

    Ps: I am trying to follow your argument, not saying anything about gay sexuality.

  201. No Christian religion that follows God’s word in the Scriptures will call on anyone to “shame and punish”.

    MATTHEW 7:1 [Jesus] “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

  202. I never said the servant was homosexual. (With any given person we know a tiny amount about, the chance of that is rather small.)

    There is a difference between being a homosexual and being a sexual abuse victim , which he may have been. Just like there is a difference between sleeping around and being a victim of rape. I hope you know the difference, or you will hurt real people real bad with your responses to their pain.

  203. … and when you jump to conclusions, mixing up victims and those who are to blame (I consider the possibility that this slave may have been a sexual abuse victim, you think I called the servant gay), you are cursing people with your unjust judgments. To curse, and then end with the word blessings, is very unsuitable.

  204. Your reason for hating God/Jesus is due to God Law that shows us our sins and our need for forgiveness that only God can achieve for us through Jesus’ payment for our sins.

    I believe your philosophy is a parallel to that of Aldus Huxley (one of the world’s leading humanists, evolutionists and an atheist, head of UNESCO, grandson of Thomas Huxley — Darwin’s bulldog.) :

    “I had motives for not wanting the world to have meaning; consequently assumed it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics; he is also concerned to prove there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do. . For me, as no doubt for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom.”—*Aldus Huxley, “Confessions of a Professed Atheist,” Report: Perspective on the News, Vol. 3, June, 1966, p. 19

  205. YOU WROTE: “Why don’t more people eyes open about Jesus?”

    ~~~~~ ◄ 2 Corinthians 4:4 ►
    The god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

  206. You have no concept at this time of the purpose of the Law and the Gospel. Take the time to research that.

  207. Can I assume that the christians listed here: “He’s right. While traditionalists are not rapidly disappearing, they are declining as a share of the Christian population. If current trends persist, the dominant majority of Christians will be LGBT-affirming in the near future.” are American Christians, obviously the only ones that count?

  208. Why do you keep repeating that misinformation? You already know that no one changed God’s word. Someone simply recognized what had always been expected of Gentiles and what never had been. And those “someones” would never have touched a bacon sandwich or a shrimp cocktail because they were observant Christians JEWS.

  209. Re: “Catholic law is against divorce and remarriage.”

    I will repeat: Catholics haven’t agitated to prevent divorced couples from remarrying, the way they’ve agitated to prevent gays from marrying. What part of this escapes you?

    Re: “I once read an article by a gay guy.”

    I’m sure you did. But, was it really by a “gay guy”? Or was it by some sanctimonious Christianist posing as a “gay guy,” trying to make gays look bad? I have no idea, and I suspect you don’t, either. Sounds as though this letter was reeling off Christianist tropes against gays. I’m sure it reinforced all your negative opinions about them, but even if it had been written by a “gay guy,” it’s anecdotal in nature and reveals nothing of significance.

    Once more, I will repeat: Catholics haven’t agitated to prevent divorced couples from remarrying, the way they’ve agitated to prevent gays from marrying. When are they — and other Christianists — going to go after divorced-&-remarried couples the way they go after gays? Both are, supposedly, “abominations” against their deity. Why are Christianists trying to destroy one group, but not the other? Why are they cherry-picking their Biblical abominations?

    Answer that question … if you dare. (I suspect you can’t, or won’t, which is fine, if you just show the maturity to admit it and then move on already.)

  210. You miss the obvious. Gays are destroying themselves.
    Open your eyes. Read the studies. Gays attacked the catholic mass
    In NYC at St Patrick’s Cathedral and video taped it. They were chanting some disgusting mantra and in the back ground you can hear Cardinal O Conners voice “only return hate with love”
    And this is with THEIR video tape. !!!!
    If two people break the law and re marry after divorce and do an abomination, they still do what is NATURAL and many still have babies. Not in a million years will two men have a baby. Are u so blind not to see????? There is NO reason to imitate a gay and write an article about it, sadly there is way too much real evidence all around us. Argue all u want. Deny all u want. It’s all around us. Open your eyes. I dare u. As the priest at mass said today “if u are living a sinful life, you will crash into a wall, it’s just a matter of time”

  211. “Hillary attacking rape victims”

    WND, Breitbart or just made up on the spot?

  212. Um, you jumped a couple of centuries trying to substantiate your claim of perfection. Beheadings and amputations were imported to North America. Burning non conformists at the stake accomplished what? Not exactly comfortable for innocent.
    Christians willingly employed hanging to unconsciousness then drawing and quartering hunters poaching “royal” game to feed their families. Can you justify the conversion torture techniques imported from Spain? Can you justify the willful distribution of small pox tainted supplies to natives?
    Manhattan was an absolutely filthy place to live for a century after stealing the land from natives. Typhoid was an imported disease that Europeans incorporated and perpetuated from shitting in their water supply…unlike the natives.
    Square the circle please. Can any Christian justify the importing of their filth and disease to other continents across the globe?

  213. I’m not Spanish I’m catholic. None what u say is catholic law. Keep trying though. Square circle head

  214. Still makes you a Christian…and square the circle please.
    BTW, since you bring up this brand of Christianity, when will the molestation of the innocent end and jail time be served by the guilty. Vatican City sure has a way coddling all involved.

  215. Still Christianity and no justification for all the social ills imported to North America and the globe.

  216. Or u vote for Hillary. Running from sniper fire. Video shows her laughing

  217. As if the Indians lived in perfect harmony, you need to stop watching cartoons

  218. Let me see. A few years ago a priest got arrested for touching a boy 20yrs prior. Front page news. The same exact day two lesbians got arrested for killing their adopted child. Page 22.

  219. Fake quote. People who use block quotes with only a book citation, without online attribution, are BS artists cribbing from sites they know are of questionable veracity.

    Maybe people have animosity towards religious folks because of all the lying, bigotry, ignorance and sanctimonious arrogance some of them engage in when defending their faith.

    BTW announcing you are a creationist is also pretty much declaring that you are willing to lie for God.

  220. YOU WROTE “Satan” “has” “Glory”

    ((See? See what I did there? Same as you.
    I took your words, and I twisted the. Do you see that??))


  221. Too bad you are not directing that at your fellow judgmental Christians.

  222. Lol! Bad ideas last the longest. It took almost 2000 years for the church to disavow antisemitism, sectarian violence and genocide of “heathen” cultures. By all means claim they were good ideas. I need a laugh.

  223. Well clarify something. 2 point.
    1) I don’t believe in any religion that is based on a reward/punishment system. That’s just a fancy form of corruption
    2) if there is a God, he has nothing to do with religions, for he see how man twists religion into… Well folks like you.: Self righteous

  224. – it shouldn’t matter to you at all WHAT God I believe in. Religion/ worship/ etc… It should all be done in the privacy of your own life.

  225. You probably want to scroll around, educate your flock, if you believe that.

    (Of corse, the irony that a few posts later from you – tried to shame and punish. Classic Catholic move )

  226. Don’t act like you care about gay people, Please. Ould be the 1st to push…

    Ok.. So let’s roll with your notion:
    Google: What is the oldest religion that is currently practiced today?
    Answer: The religion of Hinduism began more than 5,000 years ago
    Ouch…. By your logic, Hinduism has more truth than your religion

    Hmm. That got me thinking…

    Google: what’s Hinuism have to say about homosexuality?
    Answer: Homosexuality in the Dharma Shastras (Sacred Law) are not based on moral judgements but rather legal complexities with reference to offspring and inheritance of ancestral property.

    Ok, so not a moral issue to the oldest /currently practicing religion.

    ((You got to love google… ))

  227. Comparing Hinduism to Catholicism shows your ignorance.
    There is no boss of Hinduism. It is much more loose knit than Catholicism. 2000yrs is only one aspect. There are many others.
    Catholics have univerdities the world over that employ atheist and gays and Protestant professors. Our main book the catechism by decree states to love gays. No acting here

  228. .
    No, I’m saying that the original writing was myopic in their attempts to codify advice for their times, and they were blind to seeing familiar things and thinking that familiar things were worthy of commenting on, in that way, they were blind, so …

    … so, rather than blindly following the blind, I suggest opening our eyes, taking individual responsibility for our own individual beliefs and behaviors right here and now, and do the right thing now, with awareness that ‘now’ is an evolving moment, where tomorrow’s ‘now’ may be different, so we either are alive and learn something new and grow with each moment, or we are dead and done and numb to each moment’s opportunity to vigilantly keep raising our awareness with each breath.

    In the context of this thread, that means not erroneously ascribing fear and condemnation of any sexuality to Jesus.

    In the context of our life, that means learning with each new person how to fully participate in equivalent consideration for everyone — if we want recognition, acceptance, support, and protection for ourselves, then we have to give recognition, acceptance, support, and protection to others.

    Why would any of us try to prohibit others from building a family with a partner?

    When finding competing concepts in scripture, one saying not to judge, and another saying to judge, we need not follow either one simply on the grounds that it’s scripture, instead, individually, each of us can decide for ourselves what we believe to be appropriate, and take responsibility for our own individual beliefs and behaviors.

    If you believe that judging others is the way to be, then accept judging back at ya.

    Regardless, our Constitution recognizes, accepts, supports, and protects everyone equally just by being born … isn’t that a wonderful thing?

    Who could do better than that?

  229. I moved beyond sanitized school history decades ago. Try again.

  230. That all you got? Go back about three or four decades. Research the dress wearing authoritarians of a boarding school who buggered their deaf students.

  231. You already made up stuff before, why not continue I guess. We are dealing with “post truth” politics.

  232. It’s called being passive aggressive. Sandi Is a veritable mistress of it,

  233. Oh shawnie! really! from a sola scriptorum girl at that.

    Gods word never changes. This is the mantra. Not just at the time of Jesus. Not just a century afterward, or 500 years, or 1000. NEVER!

    Except when it does.

    That’s the beauty of hermeneutics. If Jesus said something– not one jot or tittle– and it is inconvenient, just go see if Peter or Paul said something different. Problem solved.

    I would assume at slaying all of the unbelievers in your town is a moral commandment, not a ceremonial one. Just like stoning your children or unvirgin daughters. Doesn’t sound like a ceremonial sin, does it?

    Or do we call it a civil law?

    I’m still waiting for you to condemn the guy who thought it was just great that 50 people were murdered.

  234. Judge with righteous judgment.

    That Jesus. such a card!

  235. The kind that didn’t believe in Jesus, of course. We were Jewish. Uh-oh, God who so loved the world seems to have had it in for us for 2000 years.

  236. There were never three. There were one and two anti popes many times. Keep dreamin

  237. Yet no where is Antigay bigotry declared a sin. So you made that up.

    And nowhere do conservative Christians condemn Antigay bigotry as a sin, that is, beyond a resounding tsk-tsk coming from an occasional minister or church. They seem to universally support it, and search diligently for half truths and lies to support it.

  238. The bible is like a novel: You have to read the whole thing to figure out where everybody and everything ends up. The New Testament in several places that what one does or doesn’t eat shouldn’t be a stumbling block (Romans 14 and Acts 10). The Bible does not do the same for the sin of homosexual acts. Although the sin of practicing homosexual acts is no more damning than other sins, but the belief that a sin is not a sin puts a Christian on very thin ice.

    Somehow, you must have missed all of this in you exhaustive study of the entire Bible…or you are just passing on misguided “talking points” from someone else. Which is it?

  239. God had an entire list of “Dos and Don’ts” for the Israelites while they were stumbling along in the desert. Most of this was to instill obedience and self control on them so they could live up to their claim as His chosen people. Once Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit showed up, it was a whole new ball game with things like sacrifices, food, etc.

    My take is that you haven’t read the whole Bible before commenting on what it all means, have you?

  240. Does your congregation kill adulterers? if not, then you are a hypocrite in citing Leviticus.

  241. “Proof texts taken out of context” denotes the entirety of fundamentalist Christian discussions of scripture. Reading it figuratively and looking for context only seems to come up when they are called out on self-serving interpretations.

  242. Is someone who uses sarcasm (Adam and Steve) and contempt in speaking of homosexuals is not a Traditionalist, but hater, Yes, really traditionalists refuse to accept homosexual relations as legitimate but they do not speak with contempt on this issue.

  243. “Catholics have univerdities the world over that employ atheist and gays and Protestant professors.”

    Except when they feel like firing them for being atheist, gay or protestant. Then you hypocrites just bray on about it being their right as defending the faith.

    “Our main book the catechism by decree states to love gays. No acting here”

    The Catholic Church has spent money, resources and manpower to deny gays civil liberties, ostracize them, criminalize them, and in the past, executing them. So much for catechism.

    There is nothing more dishonest that the claim made by religious believers that their scripture or tenets of faith prevent them from acting badly. It is simply denial of history and how people really use their religious faith on public issues.

  244. Personally, I prefer the contempt. The “I love you but God hates your sin” crowd are far less honest.

  245. The servant wasn’t homosexual. Christ called homosexuality an abomination.

  246. I see you know nothing of which you discuss. Christ is responsible for Leviticus to begin with.
    Where is the “original reference” two men using temple prostitute’s chambers – I think you are stretching things quite a bit. Show me the scripture please.

  247. That’s why they are called losers. That’s why the Catholic Church will always win. Check out the Battle of Lepanto. 1571. 300 Muslim ships vs. 100 Catholic ships. Catholics surprise attack at midnite in the harbor of Lepanto. No more Muslim ships

  248. Spuddie buddy
    You don’t have a clue. Civil Liberties that can destroy whole civilizations yes. And yes we spend our money on what we believe. Just as do gays. We will see who wins. I’m guessing ROMW WILL WIN again

  249. ” Civil Liberties that can destroy whole civilizations yes”

    Spoken like a true autocrat. Someone who finds liberties and freedoms distressing. We have spent enough lives in the history of civilization dealing with people who shared such toxic views of society. Those who felt not only did they know better than everyone else, but felt entitled to compel them to follow their direction. Like every murderous genocidal regime has done before.

    Why do you hate freedom and democracy so much?

    ” And yes we spend our money on what we believe.”

    No, you spend money on trying to force others to follow what you believe.

  250. Isn’t it also true that those observant Christian Jews also recognized that keeping kashrut and circumcision as requirements for Gentile Christians would have been impediments to growing the faith?

  251. “Civil liberties that destroy whole civilizations.”
    next you can tell me how much you love, love, love love me.
    The obsession of the religious reich with all things homosexual demonstrably led to the election of The shrub, whose two undeclared wars destabilized the entire middle east, gave rise to ISIS, comforted Al Qaeda, and doubled our massive national debt.
    So, I suppose in a very bass-ackwards sort of a way, it’s all gay people’s fault., If only we didn’t insist that our lives, freedom, loves, families, children, faith, morality, and assets were every bit as important as Newt Gingrich’s and cardina O’Brien’s.
    If only!

  252. I guess your priest lied to you.

    I have a great life, a wonderful husband, fabulous family, successful career, wonderful friends, no diseases or health problems other than that which comes with aging, and i’m still able to run six minute miles at the age of 66.

    Oh, your priest meant after death. I see. God is gonna get me THEN.
    Meanwhile, you should check out the statistics for black people. Not good. We probably should never have granted them civil liberties.

    Before you tell me “it’s different”: I know. It’s always “different” when you can use your faith to justify what cannot be justified by any other means.

  253. Calling things “civil liberties” does not make them so.
    Nature has a mom and a dad. But we are smarter than nature so we let gays adopt little innocent children. Taking a child’s civil liberties to a mom and a dad away from them. But they don’t vote or donate to the Dem. party.!!!!!
    At the same time Dems and leftist are screaming we have to get back to nature. No hate fro freedom here. That is on your side.
    Murderous regime? Let me see. Mao didn’t go to church. Hitler didn’t go to church. Stalin didn’t go to church. Open your eyes dumby

  254. Two words.

    susan Smith.

    Or google “parents who kill their children”. 121 MILLION HITS! And you declare that one unsourced article tells the “truth” about gay people, everywhere and everywhen.

    A USA TODAY examination of more than three decades of FBI homicide data shows that on average, 450 children are killed every year by their parents. Northeastern University criminologists applied statistical models to the records. USA TODAY analyzed the database for a detailed look at who kills, who is killed and how. Several patterns are apparent:

    The vast majority of child victims – three out of four – are under 5. More than a third of all victims are under a year old.

    Nearly half of all victims died from physical beatings or other injuries at a parent’s hands.

    Fathers are more likely to kill. Men killed six out 10 children, most often beating or shooting them. Fathers were at fault in 75% of cases when children were shot to death by a parent and in 64% of cases when a child was beaten. “Violence is a masculine pursuit,” says Jack Levin, a Northeastern University criminologist.

    When mothers kill, they are far more likely to kill victims under the age of 1 than children of any other age. Nearly 40% of all children killed by their mothers were less than a year old.

  255. The shrub. I love that. Yes I love u too. Believe it or don’t.
    Oh yeah. Hillary voted to ok the shrubs war. Trump 2016. LoL.
    Gays don’t have children u anti science dweeb. Obama doubled the debt too. No biggie though. He ain’t no shrub after all.

  256. ” I once read an article…”

    My cousin’s boyfriend’s uncle once told me….

  257. “The same exact day two lesbians got arrested for killing their adopted child. Page 22”

    So where did you cut and paste it from? Page 22 from where?

    Oh right, you don’t want to demonstrate you got that from some completely unreliable source. It makes your lying more obvious that way.

  258. I condemn the guy who thought it was just great that 50 people were murdered. OK? Now can you get back to my question?

    Allow me to refer you to the preamble to Leviticus: “And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any one of you…”

    Similarly Deuteronomy 1: “These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel…”

    Where do Gentiles fit into this?

  259. Sure they might have been, but no doubt they would have required them had there been significant scriptural precedent for doing so. Righteous Gentiles had never been expected to circumcise or keep kosher, but they had always been expected to refrain from sexual immorality.

  260. Good. so we can now toss the entirety of the old testament from the conversation.
    As for condemning him: you are always ready to do that– when chided into it. Otherwise, no.

  261. Take it up with Google… I get facts aren’t your thing

    The history of Judaism spans more than 3,000 years

    But, I’m sure you’ll rationalize your way out of that, too.

  262. Trump. you mean that guy that is currently living in unrepentant sin because he is divorced and remarried?

  263. I’m learning from the scholars who teach about the bible.

    You know the ones.
    The weekend worriers who show up to church sometimes, hear some rhetoric that some stick, most doesn’t, and then run out and gay bash.


    I get that you must rewrite when truth seeps in from time to time.

  264. “Nature has a mom and a dad.”

    “Nature is a person?

    “Natural law” is what the lazy use as a form of argument when they can’t be bothered with rational justifications for their position.

    ” Taking a child’s civil liberties to a mom and a dad away from them”

    The idiocy is strong in this one! A child adopted by gay couples don’t have parents to be taken away from them. But I guess you would rather have children with no parents going from group homes or one foster parent to another rather than see them in stable homes. You really are a maliciously hateful kind of guy.

    ” Mao didn’t go to church.” “Stalin didn’t go to church.”

    Mao was educated at a Taoist religious school. Stalin came from a devout family and was educated in a seminary. They learned how to get masses of people to do horrible things from their religious upbringing.

    “Open your eyes dumby”

    You can’t even spell dummy correctly! Are you just a Poe Troll or are you legitimately an ignorant cretin?

  265. Or, I read it and though…

    A religion based on a reward /punishment system.

    Nah – I can be a better person, without persecuting others, all on my own

  266. So I take the above as a “Why no, I haven’t read the Bible, but I still like to guess at what’s in it and what that might mean, after I filter it through my own preconceived notions.”

    Duly noted, I think you and I are done.

  267. Who said this: ” And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

    We need to forgive, to correct, not judge the heart, but not ignorethe sin. It’s not up to me to punish, but that doesn’t mean I should act like everything is hunky dory. That would be like leaving a drowning man to his own devices because I refuse to pass judgment on his swimming ability or lack thereof.

  268. Nope. I am describing the actions and rhetoric they are using.

    “A Christian is not supposed to judge another’s heart, they are certainly
    called to judge what is a sin. Here again, the answer is clear if one
    avoids cherry picking what one wants the Bible to say for their own

    That’s all well and good. But since you are not directing it towards Christians, calling them out for their behavior which doesn’t jive with what you wrote, I could care less. Where was your input here when your fellow Christians were trying to justify discrimination and in one case mass murder?

    If Christians who supposedly are against judgmental behavior and cherry picking the Bible for their own purposes spoke up against the ones who do just that, then their words would mean something. But they don’t do that.

  269. You mite have a great life. I’m very happy for u. If u can run a 6minute mile at 66 you are doing great. That is very fast. My priest doesn’t tell me. He don’t even know my name. There are like 3000 Catholics at my little church. I know about the black statistics. I have guests visit me from around the world. Had two lesbians recently. They told me they put an ad for help in SF. Not a single person helped them except me. Bad old catholic. I have nothing against u personally.
    Just nature has to be respected.

  270. Yeah, whatever.

    By what standard are you judging Christians? It can’t be based on Christianity, because you aren’t one yourself and have little or no understanding of it. So I guess you printed up the little lines on your own yardstick and declaring that’s the true measure of right and wrong.

    How convenient for you.

  271. Define how you use the term “gay bash”…

    If I point out that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, do you consider that “gay bashing”?

  272. I know people kill kids. Gays refuse to even have kids.
    When I had my daughter I knew it was going to be messy.
    Life is messy. But gays refuse to enter the fight. As
    GK Chestertton said “he who only likes victory will always arrive late for battle.” You sir are late for battle

  273. If you actually respected Nature, you would know that there are gay people– and same sex paired mammals and birds– everywhere and everywhen.

    THAT is nature. Exclusive heterosexuality isn’t natural or normal, it’s just common.

  274. You know your a bad person when
    Spuddie buddy gets mad at u for reading an article.

  275. You know heterosexuals kill kids, but find only time to cite a Page 22 reference in order to condemn gay people.

    Gays refuse to have kids? Funny how many gay people I know who have gone to extraordinary lengths to have children, including the adoption of the cast off unwanted products of irresponsible heterosexual reproduction.

  276. SF chronicle. You missed the point entirely. They put murder on page 22. They put a bad catholic from 20yrs ago on page one!!!!!! No bias in the media at all. Fair square. Yikes

  277. You keep worrying about what he does in the bedroom as Hillary the butcher of Benghazi skates

  278. “By what standard are you judging Christians?”

    By notions of common decency. Something they seem to be lacking or consciously trying to avoid as not being congruent with their professed religious belief.

    That one avoids doing things which are malicious and harmful to others. Both to avoid the same thing returned in kind and because we are not all sociopaths lacking any kind of connection to fellow people.

    Christianity hardly sets standards for moral conduct by any means. There are so many carve-outs and loopholes with religious notions of morality that it is useless for anything other than justifying one’s behavior at any given time. There is no such thing as a religious proscription on violence or hateful conduct. They all find ways to engage in it, with God’s approval of course.

    If you needed God to tell you that maliciously harming people is wrong, it says very little of your understanding of morality. It also says a great deal about how little conscience you have as well.

    Its not hard to understand some basic concepts of morality without having to invoke religion. You don’t like to be harmed by others in hateful ways. You know others don’t like it either. Its a pretty good yardstick. A far more consistent, honest and moral one that saying, “I do this because God says so”.

    Btw the whole argument that only Christians can judge Christians is one of the most ridiculous self-important piles of nonsense out there.

    Again had you directed your original post at Christians who were acting judgmentally and cherry picking the Bible to justify their behavior, then your opinions on the subject would matter. But instead you send it to me in a defensive manner. If outsiders have to be the ones to point out the excesses of your brethren, your allegedly reasonable position isn’t worth squat.

  279. I see. All of your claims about morality are just bogus. And Benghazi. Of course.

  280. Who is the leader of Judism ???? Pray tell ???
    Catholics have the Jewish old test. in our holy book.
    We love facts. We will be here in 10,000 more years.
    Oh yeah the Hindu’s u brought up, they still have open sewers
    As the norm. But keep trying.

  281. So why are you not posting this in response to fellow Christians who are using those same old passages to justify their behavior?

  282. No link to the story = You are full of it. More likely the bad catholic continued to act for 20 years and was being sued presently. That is how these stories typically come out.

    Why bother represent facts honestly?

  283. I can’t help it if you don’t appear to have an honest bone in your body. But I know, Jesus doesn’t mind if people lie as long as its done for him.

  284. The natural law is the farthest thing from lazy.
    With all due respect spuddie buddy
    You seem to know 0.0 about Catholicism.
    As I said Mao and Stalin didn’t go to church.
    But in your warped mind, it’s still our fault.
    I’m talking to about 20 people so excuse my spelling.
    I usually don’t talk to people like u so I don’t spell that
    Word often.
    Much love

  285. QUOTE: “By notions of common decency”

    Who supplies those “notions of common decency”…did we all vote on this, or did you just get finished with the list and I haven’t read it yet?

    Also describe this “malicious harming of people”…is telling a Christian that shacking up, adultery, or engaging in homosexual acts are wrong “malicious harming” according to your this “notions of common decency”?

    It’s starting to sound like you just want to replace Christian values with your own set of values. Go with that then.

  286. Reading an article does not make one a liar.
    I’ve had countless people online tell me they have read an article.
    Never even crossed my mind to call them a liar.

  287. Who sets the benchmark of “better”?

    Is telling another Christian that homosexual behavior is a sin “persecuting others” according to your sense of right and wrong?

  288. People were calling out Natural Law as a dishonest lazy pile of turds in Thomas Aquinas’s day. Its simply argument by stipulation. Make some declarations and claim they are facts or laws. The Catholic Church was always on shaky ground when they invoked it. As a way to foreclose criticism or analysis by just saying, “I say so”.

    “As I said Mao and Stalin didn’t go to church. ”

    It was incorrect and ignorant the first time you said it. Doubling down on the statement doesn’t make it any better.

    You nearly busted my irony meter by trying to impugn my intelligence while misspelling the word dummy.

  289. “an atheist and an agnostic step into YouTube…”

    and produce a cat video?

  290. You are in that awkward stage between losing the Easter Bunny and finding Jesus. I’m rooting for you to get through it.

  291. Yeah, something like that. Don’t watch it if you already know everything there is to know.

  292. Chip is his own god, apparently. It looks like he is pulling out all of the trite and cute atheist one liners and avoiding any heavy lifting in this debate.

    I think it’s best we say a prayer for him and move on…you know, “Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,…”

    With that, Chip, you get the last 17,000 posts here. I’ll be praying for you, take that however you want.

  293. no, dummy-we live in an educated western world where we know there is no god making rules about sex-he isn’t some primitive savage in a third world cesspool. he’s no victim., You have to own your own crap you CHOOSE to believe. He is no victim. You guys need to change your god before more people get screwed up.

  294. “Also describe this “malicious harming of people”…is telling a Christian that shacking up, adultery, or engaging in homosexual acts are wrong “malicious harming” according to your this “notions of common decency”?”


    Christians are known for using terrible euphemisms to cover repugnant behavior. In most cases is telling a Christian that shacking up, adultery, or engaging in homosexual acts are wrong “ usually entails some kind of personal trespass upon the recipient of such talk. Some kind of malicious untoward action against others. Anything from just rude inappropriate behavior in public, to discrimination, to murder.

    Christians have a lot of excuses for acting badly to others. This is one of the most dishonest. Truth is, people who generally do such things merely want to harm others and feel superior. They invoke religion to avoid criticism of their actions. Calling such things concern or love of others is sickening BS. Its simply abusing others in the name of God.

    “It’s starting to sound like you just want to replace Christian values with your own set of values. Go with that then.”

    There are no “Christian values” to speak of. Its merely using scripture to justify one’s behavior. Values are something to be wielded against others but not something they hold to. You demonstrated that perfectly. You told me that Christians aren’t supposed to cherry pick the Bible for their actions or be judgmental. But you don’t do that to actual Christians. So your expression of Christian values was only meant to be given to outsiders, but actual Christians aren’t to be bothered.

    My own set of values is summed up in an ancient saying,
    “That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow,”

  295. Wow

    Do you often read a book, then apply your own interpretation to fit the narrative that best matches your own biases..???

    Of you do.. That’s exactly what happens with those who use a book written by a group of men, hundreds of years ago…

    Let’s se if your a person if your word, and not write back

  296. So. In your feeble attempt to try to win some random point, you are saying that those of the jews faith, are actually Christians? Has anyone told them this??

    And, very nice of you to malign Hindu’s.. Very Christian of you.

  297. My Jesus would love unconditionally, and not have heaven tied to some arcane reward/punishment system…

    And my Jesus would be called Sally. Just cause I want no one confusion between your idea of a God, and mine

  298. Re: “Gays are destroying themselves.”


    Re: “Open your eyes. Read the studies.”

    What are you even talking about? Which studies? Religionist-funded ones? Or scientific ones?

    Re: “Gays attacked the catholic mass In NYC at St Patrick’s Cathedral and video taped it.”

    So gays “attacked” a mass? Was anyone hurt? If so, I hope the perps were arrested. I have no idea what you’re talking about, BTW. Obviously you do, but I don’t.

    Re: “And this is with THEIR video tape. !!!!”

    I have no access to this tape you’re yammering about.

    Re: “If two people break the law and re marry after divorce and do an abomination, they still do what is NATURAL and many still have babies.”

    So you’re saying divorcing and remarrying is an “abomination” but it’s not all that bad an abomination? Is that it? I thought abominations were abominable, but hey, maybe I was wrong about that.

    Re: “Not in a million years will two men have a baby.”

    True, but so what? Marriage isn’t always about kids. There are lots of married hetero couples out there who don’t have any kids and never will. If marriage is only about kids, that would seem a major problem. Maybe you should stomp around telling childless married couples to procreate.

    Re: ” There is NO reason to imitate a gay and write an article about it, sadly there is way too much real evidence all around us.”

    Evidence of what? I have no idea what you’re talking about.

    Re: “Argue all u want. Deny all u want. It’s all around us.”

    What, exactly, is “all around us”? As I’ve said before, I don’t know what you’re referring to.

    Re: “I dare u.”

    I dare you to grow up and act like an adult.

    Re: “As the priest at mass said today ‘if u are living a sinful life, you will crash into a wall, it’s just a matter of time'”

    Wow. What a threat! I bet gays everywhere are now living in terror of “crashing into a wall” your priest referred to. BTW is that the best you and your ilk can do … i.e. hurl around vague threats? If so, what does that mean to anyone else?

  299. “People” we’re calling St Thomas????
    They don’t have names???
    Mao and Stalin still don’t go to church
    No matter how many names u call me
    Doesn’t change the fact.
    The Catholic Church is quite use to being in shaky ground
    After 2000yrs. Nothing is going to change

  300. No link =’full of it?
    Is that a scientific fact or one u just made up ?

  301. Allegedly citing an article and then not bothering to give an online reference to it is what liars do in internet discussions.

  302. I never said Jews are Christians.
    I never maligned hindu’s

  303. Joseph

    You’re fooling only yourself.

    I took a screenshot of your comment on Hindu’s, just I case you’re thinking of altering it.

  304. What am I even talking about ? Go look at the gay suicide rate.
    My sister in law takes care of gays dying from AIDS.
    She told me every last one of them asked her to go get her some street drugs. Divorce and re marriage is an abomination
    Having kids is a goo thing. A priest saying if u are living w sinful life
    You are headed for a crash is not a threat

  305. Some liars. The truth of the matter is, there were newspaper articles before the Internet and before links. I’m simply not going to work my ass off for someone who capriciously calls me a liar. I may be a Christian but I’m not that good of one.

  306. Re: “What am I even talking about ? Go look at the gay suicide rate.”

    It’s high because of the harassment they endure from Christianists like yourself. So congratulations, you managed to create — yourselves! — one of the weapons you’re wielding against them. Well done, you must be so proud!

    Re: “My sister in law takes care of gays dying from AIDS.”

    If so, one wonders why you think so poorly of gays.

    Re: “She told me every last one of them asked her to go get her some street drugs.”

    Yeah, like I believe that.

    Re: “Divorce and re marriage is an abomination”

    But not one you care to prevent, unlike gays, who are an abomination you do wish to go after. Got it. That makes you a hypocrite.

    Re: “Having kids is a goo thing.”

    Perhaps, but you seem to think it’s a requirement for anyone who’s married … when in fact, it’s not.

    Re: “A priest saying if u are living w sinful life
    You are headed for a crash is not a threat”

    Of course it’s a threat! What else can one call it?

  307. Nice how u explain I’m fooling myself. ??????
    You took a screenshot ??? Wow. Yikes.
    Sufferng sucatash.
    What am I suppose to go cower in the corner???
    What I said is normal.

  308. That’s what we have to keep telling them. You put it very well!

  309. It was against the law to be catholic in England from 1535 to 1835.
    No suicide jump. So go stuff your harassment red herring.
    I think very highly of gays. I’m divorced since 1990. Not re married.
    You sir are on a roll. By the way, I see u disagree with me, I don’t think that means u think poorly of me. But u do not afford me the same ??????
    I have never thought having kids is a requirement for being married.
    And I still don’t think u think poorly of me. See how they works.
    Disagreeing is normal. Calling me names or saying I think poorly of those I disagree with does yourself dishonor

  310. Re: “It was against the law to be catholic in England from 1535 to 1835.”

    Not relevant to anything being discussed. Except maybe to indulge a persecution complex or something.

    Re: “No suicide jump. So go stuff your harassment red herring.”

    There’s no red herring.

    Re: “I think very highly of gays.”

    Riiiiiight. And I bet some of your best friends are gay, too. No?

    Re: “By the way, I see u disagree with me, I don’t think that means u think poorly of me.”

    I think you’re cherry-picking your way through Christianity. But that’s a problem for you. Your own Jesus didn’t care much for that:

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’” (Mt 7:21-23)

    Re: “I have never thought having kids is a requirement for being married.”

    Actually, yes you do! You were the one who said the fact that two men will never have children is a reason they shouldn’t be allowed to marry. You’d only have said that if you assumed marriage was for having children.

  311. Wow u are something. First u say gays commit suicide because of me. Then I tell u people like me couldn’t even exist in England for 300yrs and no suicide rate increase and u blow it off. Nicely done. Or something. ??? No best friends are gay. You sir are wrong again.
    And I still think very highly of gays. Actually no I didn’t. Never having kids goes to the nature of the problem. I unlike u know what I believe.

  312. There is nothing cruel or dehumanizing with what I said????
    What are u talking about ??? Oh yeah, u are the one who couldn’t even tell me how I fool myself. Like pulling teeth with u all

  313. .
    In Leviticus 18:3, God is saying that the Hebrews are to distinguish themselves as ‘special’, and are not to follow the practices of the Egyptians or of the Canaanites or of the Judeans.

    It accounts for the bulk of the 636 Biblical laws and regulations designed to make the Jewish nation distinct from those among whom they lived.

    Do you even know, let alone follow all 636 rules and admonitions?

    At the time, ritual sex, including male same-sex sex, in temples of other cultures was common.

    Thus, Leviticus 18:22 relates to temple same-sex rituals — something that was considered ritually impure and demeaning.

    Why specifically would two males having sex be impure and demeaning?

    Because the whole structure of sexuality in Torah assumes a dominant male, and a subordinate woman.

    Got that?

    Two males having sex would be considered to be impure and demeaning because one of the males would be subordinate, would be like a woman.

    How demeaning is that?

    Remember, Leviticus deals with the Holiness Code which outlined ways in which the ancient Hebrews were to be set apart to their God, compared to non-Hebrews, compared to nearby ‘pagan’ temple worship.

    Some fertility worship practices found in early Pagan cultures were specifically identified; ritual male same-sex behavior in Pagan temples was one such practice.

    But, the status of women in ancient Hebrew culture was very much lower than that of a man, and barely above that of children, and slaves.

    When a man engaged in sexual intercourse with a woman, he always took a dominant position, as a penetrator; the woman would take a submissive posture.

    So, the theory goes, when two men engage in sexual intercourse, one of the men, in effect, takes the role of a woman — this is what is called ‘unusual’ or “we don’t do that here” … and certainly not in a woman’s bed, because that, too, for Hebrews, was “unusual” or “we do not do that here”, the mixing or commingling of men in a woman’s place — don’t have sex with a man in your wife’s bed … because it belittles the man.

    When a man takes on the low status of a woman, the ancient Hebrews regarded the act as making both ritually impure and demeaning in showing God their likeness to Him ( God the manly penetrator, not a womanly penetrated, hence Judeo-Christian difficulties with Goddesses, and female rabbis and priests ).

    The seriousness of this ‘idolatry’ in Hebrew eyes was compounded by the belief that “to lie with a man as with a woman” violated the dignity of the male sex — God was made in the image of men, not women.

    Women were considered property, but men were the direct image of God.

    To treat a man the way a woman was treated was to reduce him to property, and, thereby, to violate the image of God.

    The issue was idolatrous activity which failed to acknowledge the Hebrew God’s creation ( via manly penetration ).

    The advice in Leviticus, therefore, is to a man not to lower himself to a woman’s status by letting another man be above him and penetrate him — it would diminish his status as representative of the manly power of God.

    Is this your objection to male homosexuality — that a man is lowered to the status of a woman?

    Because women were considered to play such an inferior role in society, sex between two lesbians is not equally commented on in the Old Testament.

    All women were of low status and thus neither would be seen as adopting a dominant or a subservient role during sexual encounters.

    This “dominant Godly manly / submissive womanly” interpretation would obviously make the verse refer only to the Hebrew tribal culture of the time, and not to today’s western culture where all people are equal, and, yes, women can even be the boss over male employees, something unheard of in the time of the Torah.

    Do a Google search for [ original text leviticus accurate translation ] or similar, and read a few dozen opinions.

    I’m not saying one is better or morally superior, I’m saying they are all opinions, trying to guess what was on the mind of the writers in their time.

    My point is for you to make up your own mind today, not to have some translator make up your mind for you in the late 19th century when the word ‘homosexuality’ was first coined and inserted in Bible translations ( there is no original Biblical equivalent ).

    Obviously, you are not going to ‘approve’ of homosexuality or homosexuals, that would probably be an emotional step too far for you after years of anti indoctrination …

    … but I am trying to distance your disapproval of your equal fellow citizens today from Biblical admonitions to distinguish Hebrew manly God worship from the likes of the Egyptians, Canaanites, and Judeans, oh my.

  314. If you have to rely on “natural law” you have conceded any attempt at a rational support for your position. You are simply arguing by stipulation. Lazy dishonest nonsense.

    “Mao and Stalin still don’t go to church”
    Neither does Thomas Aquinas. Because they are all dead. This is as close to honest as you get.

    “After 2000yrs. Nothing is going to change”

    Other than the vast changes in the last 2000 years.

  315. I can’t help it if you act exactly like everyone in an online discussion who makes up stuff to support their arguments. But if it walks like a duck….

  316. “Thus, Leviticus 18:22 relates to temple same-sex rituals — something that was considered ritually impure and demeaning.” where does it say temple same sex rituals. You are making that up and if using that as a platform for your argument. It fell. Not interested in the rest of the bulogna, if you can only go that far without being proven wrong.

  317. Everyone on line acts hardcore catholic ?
    It’s ok u don’t have to apologize for calling me a liar.
    True colors

  318. Funny. But there are plenty of hardcore catholics who know how to make an argument without resorting to blatantly dishonest nonsense. You are just not one of them.

    Don’t worry, I won’t apologize. Neither will you.

  319. Ben, you have a lot of unattractive pals here that you ought to call out for many things, but as a general rule I do not care enough nor have the time to pick at you about it . To return to the subject at hand, no, we can not toss the entirety of the OT — there are certain passages there which are relevant to Gentiles because we are told that whole Gentile peoples were rejected for the practices described therein. Which ones were those, please?

    I don’t like it when smart guys play dumb for purposes of misrepresentation.

  320. One minute I’m EXACTLY like them. Then I’m not???
    I just hope when your head stops spinning its facing forward.
    I have to apologize now for NOT calling u a liar ?????

  321. “One minute I’m EXACTLY like them”

    When did I say that?

    Your need to create fictions is getting compulsive.

  322. Sounds to me like you are trying to have it both ways. The word of god didn’t change, shawnie. Men announced that it had changed, gave us the categories centuries later, and announced that bacon sandwiches were indeed the word of the lard. Nowhere does the NT divide up OT law into civil, ceremonial, and moral. That was all men. The idolatrous practices of the gentiles in those days? Like child sacrifice? Or worshipping idols (catholics excepted, of course). No one seriously proposes that, either.
    Either Jesus was correct– not one jot or tittle changes– or jesus was incorrect, and Paul (or peter or timothy) becomes god. Or more accurately, hermeneutics becomes god and the bible becomes god.
    I don’t like it when smart girls play dumb for purposes of misrepresentation.

  323. I can’t help it if you act exactly like everyone in an online discussion who makes up stuff to support their arguments. But if it walks like a duck….

  324. That is a description of liars, not hardcore Catholics. Unless you are saying all hardcore Catholics are liars. Even I won’t make that statement. But I will not disagree with you if you choose to make it. 🙂

  325. .
    Again, no writer ever explained anything that they presumed was common knowledge and obvious to their audience, that’s what scholarly archaeological research is all about — the ONLY place where anyone even knew about a man laying with another man as with a woman was in the pagan temples, hence the admonition that “we don’t do that here”, “we’re Jews of a single male God, and we must differentiate ourselves from worshipers of Goddesses and Animal-Gods”.

    … and the other 635 admonitions of the ancient Torah, how are you doing at fulfilling those in this modern age?

    Or are you cherry picking, excusing your own lack of adherence to some of those 636 admonitions while accosting others who apparently are just as lax as you are?

  326. .
    Yes, for anyone who objects to homosexuality, the solution for them is very easy — just don’t be homosexual.

    No need to even think about or comment on the sexuality of other people at all.

    Just take care of yourself according to your own beliefs.

  327. .
    But, the word “homosexuality” wasn’t invented until the 19th century, and then inserted by translators after that.

    I think you believe in the wrong Bible, @john14apologetics:disqus.

  328. .
    Target can not attest to whatever you claim, the boycott over trans gender equality was bogus and a non starter, as many folks signed anti-boycott petitions and made extra trips to shop at Target, all the while Walmart and JCPenney and KMart have the same policies ( Target’s dip in sales is due to non-competitive marketing on the web, a challenge for all companies, Walmart just bought web companies to ramp up, Target is next after selling their inefficient pharmacies to CVS ).

    The only agenda is the Constitution and it’s support for all citizens equally.

    If that’s the LGBT agenda, then that’s pretty swell.

  329. The word used for Homosexual before the word homosexual, It was a Greek word meaning, A man who lies with another man.

    Homosexual portrays what the wtiter was tryng to say, the writer of Corinthians (Paul) was saying that whoever has sexual Intercourse with another man will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    The Bible does say that having sexual Intercourse with a man is sin and a definition of homosexual “Involving Sexual Intercourse with someone of the same sex.”

  330. .
    So homosexuals = liars, that’s a rather prejudiced assumption.

    That’s one log in your own eye, now work on the rest of the forest, and don’t waste your time even thinking about other people’s faults according to you.

  331. .
    The authors of the original texts were trying to codify the Hebrews distinguishing themselves from the pagan cultures around them.

    That is no longer germane to current world culture.

    Folks aren’t gay so they can worship in another temple.

    They are gay because they are born that way.

    The same way straight people are born that way.

    It has nothing to do with sin, and everything to do with human longing for partnership and building a family.

  332. .
    Thanks, @john14apologetics:disqus, you confirm my statement that you believe in a Bible contextualized in the 19th century, and have no appreciation for the original writing and it’s meaning for the original audience, hence your inaccuracy and inappropriateness in the living world of now.

    ‘Sex’ was ‘worship’ in Pagan temples, and the authors of the Torah were admonishing that “we do not do that here” …

    … you are unable to point to any gay couple raising their kids as worshiping Goddesses and Animal-Gods in a Pagan temple, hence you and the translators of Paul’s secretary are referring to their own puritanical society, not the society of the original authors.

    Being any sexuality is not and cannot be a sin — being born any sexuality is not equivalent to worshiping in a Pagan temple.

  333. .
    We are telling you where you are wrong, @disqus_WwfEbJrnRL:disqus: you are wrong to tell others where they are wrong.

  334. .
    She wasn’t caught in adultery, she was accused, Jesus didn’t care, and intimidated the hypocritical stone throwers like you to shame.

  335. .
    You seem to think LGBT people, and those of us who accept LGBT people, are fallen Hebrews worshiping in a Pagan temple.

  336. .
    Apostate just means opposition, and opposition requires two opposed to each other, so you are apostate to those Christian communities, @sandiluckins:disqus.

  337. God warns all this who approve of these things! –
    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men … For even their woman exchanged the natural use for what is against nature Likewise also the men, leaving the naturally use of woman, burning in their list for one another, men with men commitng what is shameful …. That those who practice these things are WORTHY OF DEATH (Hell), and not only those who do the same BUT ALSO THOSE WHO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE them!” – Romans 1:18,26,27,32

    Scripture clearly shows us that homosexuality is a sin and it is according to Romans worthy of Death (Hell). I don’t want anyone to go to hell so please trust in Christ and he will Change you. Grace and Peace and Love of Jesus Christ be with you. Amen .

  338. Of course the word of God didn’t change. The word of God never charged the Gentiles with the Torah, nor did Jesus. No one ever cared one fig about how much bacon the Gentiles ate, nor what fibers they wore. But God obviously cared that the Gentiles of Canaan practiced sexual immorality (since it’s one of the things He rejected them for) and that is why the Jerusalem Church continued this prohibition along with abstention from blood (given in the book of Genesis) and the avoidance of known pagan sacrificial meat to avoid the appearance of participating in pagan worship. You claim to have some Jewish background — you ought to know at least some small something about this. I shouldn’t have to keep educating you about it.

  339. “‘Sex’ was ‘worship’ in Pagan temples” Uh, no, it wasn’t, it was sex. As confirmed by every ancient Jewish commentary upon those “original writings.”

    Ironic that you stump for a Bible contextualized in the 20th century while sneering about a Bible contextualized in the 19th century.

  340. The word “pais” when used in the Bible has a distinctly youthful connotation. What matters here is how the bible’s writers tended to use this term, not how Plato used it a time or two centuries before. I keep asking people to explain whose same sex lover Jairus’ daughter was, or the infant boys of Bethlehem, but nobody ever has an answer. Much less does anyone explain how Jesus Himself, or His ancestor David before Him, happened to become the same sex lover of the Father.

    It is highly likely, given the usual scriptural usage of “pais” and this story’s similarity to another one in John, that the “pais” was the centurion’s son by an unofficial marriage to a slave woman (who may have been Jewish, hence the centurion’s magnanimity toward the Jewish community). There was an entire body of Roman law concerning the legitimation of such unions after a centurion’s term was up.

  341. Exodus 20:14″You shall not commit adultery, which is also part of the golden commandment to love your neighbour as yourself.

    Genesis 1:27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    The first human couple on Earth was a man and a woman, who God blessed and equipped to be fruitful and produce offpring.

  342. So, when the bible says worthy of death, it doesn’t mean death, it means hell. And when it talks about this in the context of idolatry, it doesn’t mean idolatry at all, but homosexuality as we now understand it.

    Hermeneutics: the exquisitely fine art of getting your bible to say whatever you want.

  343. But in no case, was any Catholic child told by his family that he was an abomination unto God for being a Catholic. In no case was he kicked out of his family. In no case did his priest tell him he was an affront to God for being Catholic. In every case, there were other Catholic people to support him.

    Gay people do have a higher suicide rate than straight people, especially young people. What I find interesting is that you use this fact not as a source of compassion for people, but as a source for condemnation.

    It does show what you are really about.

    But wait! You’re divorced? Was it for any reason but adultery?

  344. The difference, Shawnie, is that my “unattractive pals” and I do not belong to a group, or a group think, that proclaims how moral it is, and cites allegedly holy texts that we believe are the word of God as weapons against people.

    Your “pals” are perfectly happy to cite Corinthians as an admonition against gay people, but ignore the same passage as they revile and slander gay people. That’s all on you.

    As for certain passages in the Old Testament, what about that one in Deuteronomy that requires the slaying of the unbelievers? That must surely be a moral law, and not a ceremonial or civil law. Not believing that Jesus died for your sins is, according to YOUR pal, Sandi, the one unforgivable sin. It is blasphemy. That must be a moral issue.

    So it still sounds to me like you are trying to have it both ways. Or, as I like to put it:

    The Old Testament is for you. The New Testament is for me.

    Me meaning you, and you meaning me.

  345. I love all gay people. God Loves all gay people.
    The church loves all gay people. Even the ones who
    Change and get married to the opposite sex and have kids.
    My divorce was because my wife wanted it. California law baby.
    Catholics were killed in England for being catholic.

  346. If you are so concerned about children having a mom and a dad, perhaps you should by be talking to the mom and the dad who produced that child, rather than they gay coupled for giving them a home that the heterosexual world couldn’t be bothered with. Perhaps we can outlaw divorce, including yours. Perhaps we could have laws forcing the parents of children to marry,

    But you won’t, because this isn’t about any of that,

  347. No, but supporting sodomy laws, rewarding people with money and political power who lie, defame, slander, and revile gay people with lies lies and more lies,…

    That’s persecution.

  348. Wow. Thank you Shawnie. You have some very interesting information and I learn a lot from you.

  349. They left the truth of God Peter.


    /əˈpɒsteɪt; -tɪt/


    1.a person who abandons his religion, party, cause, etc


    2.guilty of apostasy

  350. Psalm 96:5 – New International Version

    For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens.

  351. As Christ taught against homosexuality, you are not worshipping or honouring him, if you are endorsing homosexuality.

  352. Actually, as far as the unsaved go – and that includes people who practice homosexuality, the Lord says about them: Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

  353. .
    @sandiluckins:disqus, you just mean they have abandoned your religion, or, as I see it, by being stuck in your bigoted ways, you have abandoned their religion.

    Either way, it just means the two have parted company, and each could call the other ‘apostates’, you them, and them you.

    This whole thread is full of different people sharing their different insights, but calling ‘differences’ ‘apostates’ is just closed-minded fear, and willful ignorance.

    I’m confident every generation could call subsequent generations ‘apostate’ down through the ages, but that’s progress, evolution, otherwise, we’d still be fighting over sand, like you know who over there.

    Wake up and smell the opportunity to grow …

    … and love, only love.

  354. Are you asking Jesus to help you give up your sin? I do regularly and sometimes it is difficult, sometimes it isn’t. He said He would forgive and cleanse us of our sins.

  355. So, in other words, your divorce was not because of adultery, but because your wife “wanted” it. Like Anita Bryant, who divorced her husband, bob, despite it being against “everything I believe in” as she said. Obviously, it wasn’t.
    It is amazing how quick you are to justify your own bad behavior, your own sinfulness, but condemn gay people. Convenience is such a harsh mistress.

  356. .
    Yeah, as if the LGBT-affirming Christian denominations are honoring any other God but the one God that you think you honor, @sandiluckins:disqus, with your disregard of your God’s very own creations — fully equal LGBT people.

  357. No. People committed homosexuality all over the place. Think of Sodom and Gomorrah. You are incorrect.

  358. .
    We disagree, @sandiluckins:disqus.

    Who’s right?

    Lemme see … perhaps we can use another measurement …

    Who loves?

  359. I would be all for outlawing my divorce.
    The courts basically stole my daughter from me.

  360. but you are STILL divorced. And apparently, not for adultery.

  361. What bad behavior of mine did I justify sir???
    What sinfulness of mine did I justify sir ?????
    California a lady can divorce her hubby no questions asked
    No fault state.

  362. That is also your opinion. You are certainly permitted to have an opinion (even if its wrong). You would be unable to argue it effectively

  363. Yep. And u still haven’t told me my bad behavior or sinfulness.
    Don’t worry I accept apologies on $100USD.

  364. You’re divorced for reasons besides adultery. It’s a sin. End of story.

  365. Ahhh a Christian fundamentalist in da house.
    A gay Christian Fundamentalist a rare pleasure.

  366. actually, I’m an atheist.
    I just always find it interesting how often devout Christians are willing to excuse their own sinful behavior while excoriating me for mine. Logs and beams is such a jesusy thing.
    Personally, I don’t care about your divorce. I do care about bible-believing christianty’s attacks on gay people for existing, and your attacks disguised as concern for our sins.

  367. Here today u admitted you are a Gay Christian Fundamentalist.
    I asked u what sinfulness I did? I asked you what bad behavior I did?
    You quoted the bible. Plane as day. For all to see.

  368. .
    I’m not stumping for a Bible contextualized in the 20th century, I’m calling for individual self-responsibility in the here and now …

    … and not to pretend that believing in a 19th century societal imperative reins superior to self-responsibility, @Shawnie5:disqus …

    … and I’m offering insights on how varied are interpretations of original writings to help folks remember that the insights and admonitions in whatever Bible they hold, are up to them to weigh, and measure, and toss if inappropriate today.

    Does anyone really want to argue with self-aggrandized religious so-called police inflicting 636 ancient biblical tribal rules on folks in the street of today’s modern world of universal rights and equality, where all cultures, philosophies, religions, and points of view, get along quite well, thank you?

  369. .
    None of your business.

    And your sins are none of my business.

    Cool or what?

    That’s how we all get along, @sandiluckins:disqus.

    Now, get along.

  370. You think execution isn’t a civil matter? Be serious, Ben. Israel never had the civil authority to execute anyone again after it was annexed by the Romans and its Jewish priest-kings and administrators replaced by Roman procurators in the 1st century. The “scepter” departed from Judah and now belongs to Christ. The fate of His (and His bride’s) enemies is in His hands.

    “My “unattractive pals” and I do not belong to a group, or a group think, that proclaims how moral it is” Don’t make me laugh. Your pals wax eloquent about their own morality and “decency” all while calling people malicious names, lying, throwing about wildly false accusations, and cyberstalking. I’ve heard YOU sing odes to your own virtues as well — while expressing the longing to see my fellow believers and I thrown into hell if only there were one. Pfft.

  371. .
    Sure, and T-Rump warned that if he loses, then it’s a rigged election – it’s a rhetorical conceit.

    I appreciate that you are unable to accept LGBT people who are Christian, and Christians who are LGBT.

    Do you think that your God would be happier if you loved and were wrong, or if you admonished and were wrong?

  372. I do. I help people to see through the lies of the homosexual activists, protecting them from going to Hell while someone else gets paid for them to believe the lies they spew. Win/win all around

  373. “I’m offering insights on how varied are interpretations of original writings” That interpretations are varied means nothing. What matters is if they are VALID. That is a matter of scripture and history, not of what path the masses are wandering down today.

    “Today’s modern world of universal rights and equality, where all cultures, philosophies, religions, and points of view, get along quite well, thank you?” What planet do you live on???

  374. Their sin separates them from God, Peter. Isaiah 59:2 – New International Version

    But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

  375. Is it not loving to direct someone to health, and blessings rather than Hell? What are your priorities?

  376. They are not honouring Him if they transgress and defy Him

  377. If you are defying the living God, and you think you are a Christian, you are apostate. Simple really.

  378. atthew 5:17New King James Version (NKJV)

    17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

    Genesis 2:24 – Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. –

    Deuteronomy 25:5 “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. 6 And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. (It is always male and female)

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

    Matthew 19:4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    Acts 15:19-20New International Version (NIV)

    19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

    1 Kings 14:24 New International Version (NIV)

    24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. – what do male prostitutes do? Abominations.

    Acts 15:19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11English Standard Version (ESV)

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    New International Version

    Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

    1 Corinthians 10:8English Standard Version (ESV)

    8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.

    Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

    1 Timothy 1: 9-11 “ …. understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,a liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.”

    1 Corinthians7 – Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.”

    Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    1 Corinthians 11:9 -neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

    1 Thessalonians 4:3-8New International Version (NIV)

    3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.[b] The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

    Galatians 5:19-21

    New International Version (NIV)

    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Ephesians 5:31

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    31 As the Scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.”

    Colossians 3:5

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires.

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

    Ephesians 5:24-25 New International Version (NIV)

    24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

    Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

    Matthew 15:19 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.20 These are what defile you.

    Revelation 2:20 International Standard Version (ISV)

    20 But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet and who teaches and leads my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

    Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into thecity. 15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    My favourite: 1 Corinthians 11:11New King James Version (NKJV) 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.


    • A wicked act (Gen 19:7; Judges 19:23)

    • An abomination (Lev 18:22; Lev. 18:26; Lev. 18:27; Lev. 18:29; Lev. 18:30; Lev. 20:13)

    • Folly (Judges 19:23)

    • A vile act (Judges 19:24)

    • A vile affection (Rom 1:26)

    • An act against nature (Rom 1:26)

    • An abusive act (1 Cor 6:9)

    • A sin against one’s own body (1 Cor 6:18)

    • An act that defiles (Lev. 18:24; Lev. 18:25; Lev. 18:27; Lev. 18:28; Lev. 18:30; 1 Tim 1:9)

    • Those that practice it shall not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor 6:9-10; Jude 1:7; Jude 1:13; Rev. 21:8; Rev. 21:27)

    (many thanks to Adam in Christ for this excellent summary)

  379. I looked for the word ‘homosexuality’ in this and could not find it. Personally I don’t think it is in the words of your god. However, if you think it is, then it only shows how primitive and horrible your religion is. This is all fine and good but please keep these opinions out of public.

    Please provide some sort of indication that your husband is in agreement with you having this opinion on the internet.

  380. .

    All you have to rejoin to my call for self responsibility is that one must assess the validity of translations … ( by doing what? ) …

    … and, I presume, you are overwhelmed paying attention to folks not getting along, when, statistically, world wide, that is a shrinking anomaly.

    Okay then, you see what you want to see hear what you want to hear, self-responsibility and reality be damned.

  381. .
    Golly, we disagree.

    I know, let’s let God decide, and you and I can keep out of judging each other.



    That was easy.

  382. Whoever Chip01 worships is immaterial – you seem quite happy to chuck the first stone. Look, you call everyone sinners, and have no rule in blanket that says, “No Sinners at this concert.” So here’s a sinner you single out and ready to stone.

    BE HONEST – you hate fags, you wants us dead, you watched us die from AIDS from 1975-1982 and did nothing and only moved on it when you found the plague was takig all populations, not just homosexuals. Just come clean on it – You hate fags, this has nothing to do with sin. You’ve been hiding behind your bible for years and if you have an all seeing god, do you think you’re kidding him with this argument? you’re not even kidding US!

  383. .
    That are not transgressing and defying God; they are honoring God by taking self-responsibility for their love and behavior … if anything, they may be transgressing and defying inane modern societal-based misinterpretations and inappropriate ancient admonitions.

    Please list the 636 Torah rules and how you obey them all, 100%, daily.

    Then offer others advice if they seek your advice, because, hey, you are so inspirational in your success.

    Until then, why pontificate when you are no more than, and no less than, equal?

  384. .
    Yes, that’s exactly how we see you, @sandiluckins:disqus — defying the living, loving God in all your equal fellow citizens.

  385. .
    apostate ( noun )

    mid-14th century, literally “to stand off,” directly from Late Latin apostata, from Greek apostasia, from apostenai, from apo- “away from” ( see apo- ) + stenai “to stand”

    No problem.

    You are “stand-off-ish” from LGBT acceptance, and LGBT acceptance is “stand-off-ish” from you.

    And that’s how we all get along.

  386. I stand for Christ. He said homosexuality is a sin. What’s in it for you to hurt them?

  387. What’s in it for you to hurt these people? Christ said they commit sin

  388. No. Christ said they are sinning. Do you know more than Christ?

  389. I’m siding with Christ. They are sinning. He also said that He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin.

  390. Homosexuality is a sin. Christ said that He would forgive and heal us of our sin.

  391. You want to deny that scripture is the Word of God? lol…..ok

  392. Jesus never condemned the Centurion and his lover that should be the lesson you learn to follow Jesus , he didn’t hate anybody and he certainly didn’t treat them poorly

  393. That’s the problem with Christians they believe God wrote the Bible. In fact it was written by human beings and it was the Catholic church that decided what goes into the Bible. I’m shocked that other religions even use the Bible since it was invented by Catholic and a Roman Emperor

  394. Funny where Christians likes to condemn gay people you say and I quote “the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone”

  395. It pains me Ben that so called Christian have said so many hateful things to you. I hope that none of the things that you have listed are true about you.

    “”Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-2‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    So rest assured that they will be judged for there actions and words towards you But you too will be judged by Jesus for your sin.
    “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:23‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    That is every single person gay or straight.
    “as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.””
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    The people who judge you are not exempt and neither are you or I. But there is redemption available
    “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:22-25‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    “For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:6-9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

    Christ died for us worthless sinners that we are(I myself included in that statement)
    So he could redeem us and we could be in a right relationship with him. The only stipulation is faith and believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and accepting his finished work on the cross. Have you done that Ben?

  396. Show me where she has been charged indicted or anything including convicted on anything. There is no proof she did anything wrong. The Republicans have sent a Witch Hunt after her wasting taxpayer dollars on investigations that found absolutely nothing!

  397. This argument makes no sense. So are you wrong right now to tell me that I am wrong?

  398. Hillary attacking rape victims was a bold-faced lie she never ever did that!

  399. 4 dead bodies in Benghazi. They begged her for help. People with her power and position don’t get charged and convicted like u or me.
    Sen. Ted Kennedy killed a girl. Not a single conviction. Not a single charge. Not a single day in jail. She is a huge supporter of Sen. Ted Kennedy. Her husband raped girls and she attacked the rape victims. Her husband till this day flys in a private jet with Jeffery Epstien convicted child molester. She supports her husband. I read the other day where a black guy on probation killed a cow and is facing 30yrs behind bars. She said on video ” I still remember running across the Tarmac in Bosnia from sniper fire” the video of that day shows her laughing and accepting flowers from children. LIAR

  400. “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,”
    ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭ESV‬‬
    “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
    ‭‭Psalms‬ ‭51:5‬ ‭ESV‬‬

  401. hes not a stranger-hes a public figure who crapped his whole life out before us…

  402. .
    I’m siding with Jesus the Christ, the anointed one, too, he is reported to have behaved kindly towards, and accepting of others.

    What’s in it for you to clamor for treating LGBT people poorly, as second class citizens, or worse?

  403. .
    It is not loving to direct someone against their asking you for directions.

    You can testify to your own experience, say, when you felt same-sex-attraction temptation, how it affected you, if you caved or not, and how you addressed it.

    That is all.

  404. .
    Not to me nor to LGBT people, apparently, and not to hundreds of LGBT-affirming Christian denominations.

    Funny how Jesus Christ appears differently in each person’s experience of spirituality.

    Cool, or what?

  405. Funny, I thought the exact same thing when you proposed your “pagan temple” nonsense which flies in the face of every scrap of “real” scriptural and historical evidence in existence.

  406. Until “homosexuality” (having the disorder of same sex attraction) is separated out from and treated differently than “engaging in homosexual acts,” it’s pointless to talk about any of this. The classical Christian (Catholic/Orthodox) view is that homosexuality is an unchosen disorder, and that people who suffer from it should be treated with dignity, compassion, and respect. But if they choose to engage in homosexual acts, then they are sinning. It’s in this last that sin and choice come in.

    The way some of my co-religionists talk about “homosexuality” and “homosexuals” is disgusting. They so often talk as if all homosexuals are active homosexuals and as if all homosexuals are homosexual activists. This is simply not the case. It’s a lie. And speaking of “homosexuals” as being “depraved” or “sinful” or what not is simply not the case either (i.e., they are no more sinful than straight people. Their disorder does not make them sinful). I know a LOT of Christian homosexuals who struggle to remain chaste. These people should be welcomed with very wide open arms into our communities.

  407. The Catholic Church has taught for two millennia that the Old Testament laws have zero application to us in the New Covenant. The Old Law has been fulfilled. Atheists who throw shellfish verses at Christians can only succeed when throwing them at some Protestants. It doesn’t work with Catholics and the Orthodox.

  408. .

    So … we’re all siding with Jesus.

    And yet, we each have a different expectation of Jesus.

    Hmm …

    What can we do?

    What can we do?

    I know, we can all get along, and respect and accept each other.

    Okay, I’ll do that.

    Join me — it couldn’t hurt.

  409. .
    Yeah, I understand that you think that.

    Others think different.

    Hey, I guess that’s what other people are for — difference.

    Otherwise, there’d be no need for a second person on earth if all the second person is gonna be is same same as the first person.

    I like differences.

  410. .
    ‘Sin’ is such a general admonition, I’m sure she understood, sort of like saying, “… Have a nice day …” of their time, nothing specific, like “… Get along, now, and behave …”

    So, behave.

  411. .
    … and you’ll get to your point, eventually, I’m sure, after looking up whatever references you use for yourself … you do have a point of your own making to share, don’t you?

  412. .
    Ahh, so that’s when it’s appropriate for Christians to Judge, when the stranger has a public presence.

    Got it.

    I’m adding notes to my Bible right now … thanks!

  413. .
    A simple Google search for [ original meaning leviticus accurate translation ] will bring dozens of insights regarding two men using the temple sex chamber together, instead of one man with the temple ‘virgin’ ( ha, meant something different then, I guess ), being unusual.

    I’m not saying it, the references are.

  414. None of its true. And if actually pained you, you would be telling THEM, not telling me.

  415. There very fact that you refer to my life, love, husband and family as the end product of a disorder takes all your fake compassion and shows it for what it is.

    So you have friends that “struggle” to remain chaste. They are not struggling all that hard, it appears to me, and Jesus seems truly uninterested in doing a thing for them. In fact, it seems like the usual sin-repent-sin-again that so many Christians seem to favor.

    After all, you folks can sin and repent and sin and repent and ask Jesus to forgive you, which he always does, and sin and repent some more. We gay people who are out and proud and live our lives authentically, as we are made, rather than buying into the self hatred your churches promote… Well, we must be spiritually poor, because we are neither buying that we are sinning, and repenting not even once.

    I suspect that’s the part that really bothers you. We’re being uppity, and no longer buying the stuff you’re selling. Too bad for those poor souls who stay in your kind of church and let the prejudices of others run their lives, all the while pretending that they are just following god’s word as they “struggle” to remain chaste, and their prayers go unanswered.

    My deceased brother was one of those poor souls that bought into that self hatred. It eventually killed him.

  416. 1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus [the Messiah], who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

    Ben, there are people of many nationalities who believe in Jesus…. yes, even Jews [not referring to the religion].

    GALATIANS 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

  417. YOU WROTE: “1) I don’t believe in any religion that is based on a reward/punishment system.

    ((God has no reason to reward us for ANYTHING. Yet….. ” God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. – Romans 5:8 ))

    2) if there is a God, he has nothing to do with religions,

    ((Correct ! The most common misconception about religion is that Christianity is just another religion like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. Sadly, many who claim to be adherents of Christianity do practice Christianity as if it were a religion. To many, Christianity is nothing more than a set of rules and rituals that a person has to observe in order to go to heaven after death. That is not true Christianity. True Christianity is not a religion; rather, it is having a right relationship with God by faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior-Messiah through the working of th Holy Spirit.. Yes, Christianity does have “rituals” to observe (e.g., baptism and communion). Yes, Christianity does have “rules” to follow (e.g., do not murder, love one another, etc.). However, these “rules” are not the essence of Christianity. The “rituals” of Christianity (e.g. Baptism, Communion) are God’s means of grace for faith. Infants are baptized with water and the word of God that forms a covenant that they are one of His believers. This is also true for adults who will want to profess their trust in God’s promise and do His will.
    We observe communion in remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice and His promices of forgiveness for our sins through His body and blood.
    We follow a list of do’s and don’ts knowing this is how God guides us for our happiness and best interests and also out of love for God and gratitude for what He has done to save us. ))

    YOU WROTE: “for he see how man twists religion into… Well folks like you.: Self righteous.”

    ((Yes, there are some who “twist” their “religion” for selfish reasons.

    There is no such thing as “SELF-righeous”.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 “God made Him [Jesus] who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.”

    Through faith in Jesus we are made “righteous” before God in behalf of Jesus who became our righteousness by being perfect for us and paying the punishment for everyone’s sins.

    ◄ Romans 8:1 ►
    Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

  418. NOT a “fake quote” ! NO ” questionable veracity” !
    I gave you the source…. *Aldus Huxley, “Confessions of a Professed Atheist,” Report: Perspective on the News, Vol. 3, June, 1966, p. 19″ Look it up!

    “Compensatory behavior” is when people like you off-handedly deny and lie about facts when their arguments begin to unravel.

    Try being ethical.

  419. I WROTE: “… gospel that displays the GLORY of CHRIST …. not “Satan”.

    Sorry,,,, I am not that insightful to dialog with someone who has a cognizance deficiency. Ciao.

  420. There is something really pathetic about angry anti-Christians who come to a site called “Religion News Service” to spew their hatred. What is the point?

    Mr Merrit, while I don’t agree on all points this is a very fair article. Thanks for a calm voice.

  421. You cut and pasted it from where?

    Don’t bother with the lie that you typed it out yourself from a copy you had lying around. If you wanted a block quote of text to look credible online, you would have just posted s link to it. Either at the time or now.

    Your response is typical evasion from people who use questionable sourced. Now you are scrambling to find the same text in google books.

  422. It will bring “dozens of insights” about 40 years old, at the most, all of them invented for the purpose of encouraging the church to condone same-sex, and none of them confirmed or even slightly supported by anything in the scriptural or historical record.

    I can posit that the first line of the 21st Psalm really means “Kelly poured Coke on Fred’s green socks” and claim that my interpretation simply varies but of course that doesn’t make my “interpretation” valid. A valid interpretation in linguistically sound, consistent with the remainder of scripture, and confirmed by ancient sources. None of that is true of the “pagan temples” interpretations that are fashionable among laypeople at the moment.

  423. .
    “Lay people”?

    Do you think that ministers have any greater desire for scrutiny and re-assessing and revising accuracy regarding original scripture in original context?

    Or can you understand that ministers ( and bishops and cardinals and popes and other religious hierarchy ) already have a heightened indoctrination investment in the way their sect-authority has been handed down to them, and need to protect the continuity of their pre-authorized translations in hand?

    laity ( noun)

    Early 15th century, from Anglo-French laite, from lay (adj.) + -ity, “lay” from early 14th century, from Old French lai “secular, not of the clergy”, see 12th century Modern French laïque, from Late Latin laicus, from Greek laikos “of the people,” from laos “the common folk, the people, the crowd; the military; a tribe,” in the New Testament especially “the Jewish people,” also “the laity,” a word of unknown origin, Pre-Greek, and has a Pre-Greek suffix -it(o)-, in Middle English, contrasted with learned, a sense revived 1810 in contrast to expert.

    While I appreciate that you are skeptical when presented with alternative research that seems to conflict with what you have been told the original scripture says and means, your skepticism does not invalidate the credentials of the alternative authors and their research, and the likelihood of their accuracy.

    One of the biggest challenges in society is religious people whacking others with out-of-context and inaccurate one-liners from their current best-guess ( and sometimes intentionally mis-repurposed ) translations of scripture as if it were the inerrant word of the other person’s God.

    I hope you understand that anyone different from you does not necessarily mean they are wrong …

    … and that this is a pluralistic society where we all get along through societal respect for individual freedoms …

    … so even if you consider LGBT-Christians “apostate” to your self-identification as Christian, they are still 100% equal citizens under Constitutional law …

    … as well as LGBT-Jews, LGBT-atheists, LGBT-agnostics, LGBT-Muslims, LGBT-Hindus, LGBT-Buddhists, and so on …

    … all 100% equal citizens under Constitutional law.

  424. Hate the sin, love the sinner. When Jesus saved the adulteress from stoning, He said He did not condemn her, and then said “Go now, and sin no more.” One can love a person and not love the sins they commit.

    I hope you feel the same about everybody else as well, including me.

  425. How can there be such a thing a “gay-Christian” when the practice of homosexuality is condemned by Scripture and those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God? That’s like saying there is a an “adulterous-Christian” or a “fornicating-Christian”.or a “stealing-Christian”.

  426. Jesus certainly did speak against homosexuality in Mark 7:20-21 where He uses the word “unchastity”, “immorality” and “fornications which includes adultery, incest, premarital infidelity, homosexuality, beastiality and any other sexual conduct condemned in the OT.

  427. All forms of homosexuality are condemned in the Scripture. It is never affirmed in any way.


    History –

    History –

    History –

    I was at the funerals you piece of crap! Your side had happy Falwell plastic polyester smiles and made speeches about hating the sin and loving the sinner as he DIED! Own it! A plague happened and your side turned away. You saw this as a “final solution” and you guys loved it.

    As to therapy? Who’s going to pay for that? What do you think this is, Canada? We don’t do mental health here.

  429. Sin is what is going to put a lot of people out of God’s blessings.

  430. I love Jesus and I’m going to tell His truth everywhere

  431. try reading a Bible. That’s a pretty good way to learn what pleases Jesus

  432. With being turned over to a reprobate mind, and Jesus not filling them with Himself….

  433. What you just said is getting so old and tired it’s disgusting. Now if true Christians only practiced what they preach. Instead they’re trying to pass laws against us so that we don’t get our civil rights. Religion has no place in government. Jesus never told the Centurion whose Lover he healed to go and sin no more. He simply healed the man.
    I think what this world needs is more love not condemnation according to a book.

  434. You are endorsing and directing them to Hell. Christ said that homosexuality is a sin.

  435. He also told people when they were doing wrong. If you consider helping homosexuals to get on the right “track” as treating them poorly, what could you possible consider good?

  436. There is no Jewish race. Too many alt right websites for you.