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Queer Muslims find solace and solidarity at South Africa retreat

Mr. Abdullah, who did not wish to be identified, looks out at the view of the Western Cape’s mountains and vineyards during The Inner Circle’s seven-day Annual International Retreat in South Africa. RNS photo by Brian Pellot
Mr. Abdullah, who did not wish to be identified, looks out at the view of the Western Cape’s mountains and vineyards during The Inner Circle’s seven-day Annual International Retreat in South Africa. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

Abdullah, who asked to be photographed from behind to protect his identity, looks out at the view of the Western Cape’s mountains and vineyards during The Inner Circle’s seven-day annual international retreat in South Africa. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

CAPE TOWN, South Africa (RNS) Nestled among the Western Cape’s mountains and vineyards, thousands of miles away from his home in Algeria, Aissa Amazigh breathed a sigh of relief.

“Once the plane landed in Cape Town, I just relaxed,” Amazigh said, surveying the picturesque landscape on the horizon. “The spiritual context here is just so liberating.”

Amazigh was one of 125 queer Muslim activists and their allies — “queer” being the term many of them prefer, as the most inclusive descriptor — who came together for The Inner Circle’s seven-day annual international retreat last week in South Africa. The gathering focused on “building a movement towards an all-inclusive and compassion-centered Islam,” a mammoth task for attendees like Amazigh who live in countries where homosexuality and transgender expression are often taboo and criminalized.

Cape Town-based Imam Muhsin Hendricks founded The Inner Circle 20 years ago in his garage as a safe space for queer Muslims. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

Cape Town-based Imam Muhsin Hendricks founded The Inner Circle 20 years ago in his garage as a safe space for queer Muslims. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

Cape Town-based Imam Muhsin Hendricks founded The Inner Circle 20 years ago in his garage as a safe space for queer Muslims. He now sees the annual gathering as a refuge for those who feel ostracized by LGBT communities because of their Muslim faith and shunned by Muslim communities because of their sexual orientations or gender identities.

“Tomorrow will be very emotional,” Hendricks said before the closing ceremony at the end of a busy week. “People are already suffering withdrawal symptoms and separation anxiety because now they have to go back to these horrible contexts, and here was such a beautiful space of acceptance and love. They’re going to miss that.”

The “beautiful space” Hendricks cultivates each year has much to do with the scenery and camaraderie, but also with the legal and social environment in which the retreat is held.

As the only country in Africa to allow same-sex marriage, South Africa is a relative haven for LGBT rights. Cape Town is widely considered the continent’s playground for queer expression despite occasional homophobic attacks in the city’s townships.

Around 800,000 Muslims make up 1.5 percent of South Africa’s total population, according to recent estimates and census tallies. While the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa voted to recognize same-sex unions in 2015, most Christian congregations representing the majority of South Africans align with most Muslim communities in opposing expanded rights and recognition for queer members of faith.

Religious and social hostilities aside, South Africa’s rights and liberties make the Western Cape a far cry from most attendees’ lived realities.

“It’s amazing to see the hardships, the toughness, the criticism they face,” Iglaas Abrahams said of his fellow participants from across Africa and around the world. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

“It’s amazing to see the hardships, the toughness, the criticism they face,” Iglaas Abrahams said of his fellow participants from across Africa and around the world. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

“It’s amazing to see the hardships, the toughness, the criticism they face,” Iglaas Abrahams said of his fellow participants from across Africa and around the world.

Abrahams is openly gay and attends Hendricks’ Masjidul Umam in Cape Town, where queer men and women speak freely from the minbar or pulpit, an unusual occurrence in most mosques.

By contrast, Abdullah, who asked that his full name not be used to protect his own safety, runs an organization for queer Muslim youth in Tanzania, where same-sex sexual acts can lead to life imprisonment.

Like Amazigh in Algeria, Abdullah works mostly under the radar to help queer Muslims reconcile their sexualities with their faith and gender identities and to engage local religious communities in difficult conversations.

“Some people think there is a conflict between being Muslim and being queer,” Abdullah said. “As we grow up, we hear through verses of the Quran that people who are LGBT are sinners and cursed. We separate ourselves from our communities to avoid discrimination.”

These separations have proved emotionally and spiritually draining for many participants at the retreat.

“Most of us are wounded healers,” Hendricks said. “There was lots of anger at the beginning of this year, people sitting with their pain. We needed to address how we relate to that pain and manage it, how we relinquish control to God and move beyond identity labels and divisions.”

Hendricks says deep engagement with theology is key to this process and a core component of The Inner Circle’s annual retreat.

“The reason we have a lot of theologians here is because the current theology of Islam is very patriarchal,” Hendricks said. “We need to create an alternative voice that is strong enough to oppose the messages of condemnation that come from the orthodoxy.”

One example Hendricks cites is the Quranic story of Lot, known as Lut, a prophet to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which opponents often use to depict homosexuality as being un-Islamic.

“Progressive Muslim scholars who have studied sexual orientation and gender identity issues within Islam have concluded that this story has nothing to do with sexual orientation but rather a multiplicity of atrocities — xenophobia, prostitution, social injustice,” Hendricks said. “All of those atrocities relate to privilege and power. Once people start to see that, it liberates them to think that maybe God is not condemning them.”

Ani Zonneveld, founder and president of the Los Angeles-based Muslims for Progressive Values, speaks during The Inner Circle’s seven-day Annual International Retreat in South Africa. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

Ani Zonneveld, founder and president of the Los Angeles-based Muslims for Progressive Values, speaks during The Inner Circle’s seven-day annual international retreat in South Africa. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

Ani Zonneveld, founder and president of the Los Angeles-based Muslims for Progressive Values, sees the benefit of this back-to-the-books theological approach.

“The theological basis from which we do our work is so important. When you speak truth and come from a place of love and care, that is how our movement grows,” she said.

Zonneveld, who identifies as Muslim but not queer, told fellow participants that she uses her ally status to expose Islamophobia, homophobia and transphobia — dislike or prejudice against transgender or transsexual people — wherever she sees it.

“Media often paints all Muslims as homophobic, meaning queer Muslims rarely fit the media’s narrative. As an ally, I’ve been able to call out Islamophobic LGBT community members in the United States. We’ve also challenged Muslim-dominant institutions to pledge to oppose homophobia and do away with transphobic and homophobic teachings.”

Shehnilla Mohamed, originally from Zimbabwe and now working from Johannesburg with the human rights and advocacy organization OutRight Action International. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

Shehnilla Mohamed, originally from Zimbabwe and now working from Johannesburg with the human rights and advocacy organization OutRight Action International. RNS photo by Brian Pellot

Another Muslim ally at the retreat was Shehnilla Mohamed, originally from Zimbabwe and now working from Johannesburg with the human rights and advocacy organization OutRight Action International.

“I’ve always felt drawn to this community because it’s a space that resonates with me,” she said of the predominantly queer cohort. “As a nonconforming Muslim woman, patriarchy was part of my struggle too. Being here is about reclaiming my Muslim identity and being able to construct it in a way that resonates in my soul.”

Extrapolating from her experiences in Southern Africa, Mohamed thinks too many leaders on the continent use LGBTI people — including intersex people in the acronym — as “punching bags and scapegoats” to distract the public from government “failures in being able to provide people with basic rights.” She accuses some religious leaders of doing much the same.

“Religious fundamentalists use the LGBTI issue not only to gain favor with politicians, but also to push their own hate agenda,” she said. “While we’ve made huge progress in advancing LGBTI rights, we still have a way to go, especially with regards to religion and the role it plays.”

The Inner Circle began as a group of 25 gay men before expanding its mission to include LGBT-identifying Muslims and eventually adopting the more inclusive term “queer” to describe the population it predominantly serves. Hendricks now wonders whether such labels suit the group’s mission.

“Sometimes labels can be politically useful, but they can also create divisions,” Hendricks said.

“I don’t really identify as gay. I’m just a man who happens to be in love with another man. I’m a multiplicity of complexities and a vast ocean of possibilities. God created me, but he ain’t finished with me yet.”

After 20 years of spiritual activism and 14 annual retreats, The Inner Circle is far from finished with building its movement toward an all-inclusive and compassion-centered Islam.

Amazigh said he plans to return to Algeria with new tools and a global support network to help expand his organization Collective Mahabba, which means spiritual love in Arabic.

“In the Algerian context, it’s not just a matter of sexual orientation and gender identity we’re dealing with. Even heterosexual communities are struggling with love and sexual expression,” he said. “Discussing these issues is new to a lot of people and very strange. We’re hearing a lot of hate speech on behalf of Islam. We need to start building love speech across spiritual lines.”

About the author

Brian Pellot

Brian Pellot is based in Cape Town, South Africa.

192 Comments

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  • I would say that both Islam and Christianity do not HAVE to be understood as requiring homophobia. Both Christians and Muslims can understand the Sodom Story as not condemning homosexuality in and of itself, but rather about neglecting the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:49) as well as being against gang rape, whether against males OR females.

  • Agreed. And on the Muslim end, their book technically forbids only sodomy, not necessarily homosexuality, and scholars have routinely ruled that the act of sodomy is forbidden both in homosexual and heterosexual contexts. So divorced of the stereotype that homosexuality requires sodomy, the Islam doesn’t need to be understood as forbidding homosexuality.

  • ‘“Sometimes labels can be politically useful, but they can also create divisions,” Hendricks said.

    “I don’t really identify as gay. I’m just a man who happens to be in love with another man. I’m a multiplicity of complexities and a vast ocean of possibilities. God created me, but he ain’t finished with me yet.”’

    I like this guy and what he has to say.

  • That’s because you do not understand scripture, Daniel. You have written your own Bible, and you are hurting innocent people. Homosexuality is a sin.If your God never disagrees with you, you just might be worshiping an idealized version of yourself – Tim Keller

  • Two reasons to help these people to leave the darkness and begin a relationship with Jesus. Both routes they have chosen only lead to perdition.

    “When you find your definitions in God, you find the very purpose for which you were created. Put your hand into God’s hand, know His absolutes, demonstrate His love, present His truth, and the message of redemption and transformation will take hold.” Ravi Zacharias

  • It seems like your version of God never disagrees with you. I understand scripture. I just don’t understand it to mean that Sandi Luckens is morally superior to me just because she is Heterosexual. Christ clearly taught that we shouldn’t think of ourselves as superior to others as you clearly do. THE Bible teaches that God is no respecter of persons, obviously *your* Bible teaches that God Is quite partial to Heterosexuals. THE Bible teaches that we are justified by Faith. Your version distorts this by saying Justification is NOT a free Gift, but something conditional on being heterosexual.

  • theonomy: noun

    1. the state of an individual or society that regards its own nature and norms as being in accord with the divine nature.
    It is now.

  • No you misunderstand. I read a Bible. I agree with God. You have written your own Bible that agrees with everything you want to do.

  • Theonomic ethics asserts that the Bible has been given as the abiding standard for all human government — individual, family, church, and civil; and that Biblical Law must be incorporated into a Christian theory of Biblical ethics.
    So, you are of the belief that all US citizens must obey some (any) interpretation of biblical law?

  • I think you may be thinking “theocracy”.
    I believe North America have turned themselves into their own god, and follow the idol as closely as they can, claiming that it is god.

  • You don’t seem to remember that I said several times that I don’t think “anything goes” as far as sexual behavior goes. I don’t advocate aselgeia or unbridled lust. I also stated that my reading of the Bible is that if certain conditions are met, that committed homosexual relationships are acceptable. I also stated that the situations that homosexuality is condemned, so is heterosexuality- gang rape and idol worship are two Biblical examples where both were condemned. Gagnon mentioned Noah’s sons as an example of homosexual incest, but failed to mention Lot’s daughters as an example of Heterosexual incest. David and Jonathans’ love was consider greater than the Love of women. Ruth cleaved to Naomi in Ruth 1:14. The Hebrew word for “cleave” is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:24.

  • Daniel, you make it up as you go along. You have gone apostate, if you were ever a Christian, my friend. Please don’t hurt any more homosexuals.
    David and Jonathan were brother’s in law.
    Ruth and Naomi were mother and daughter in law.
    And Daniel’s lies and insinuations go on….

  • Do you see any good in me at all? Just because I read scripture differently than you, makes you think I am an evil person. Just because I am Gay I am going to hell. It doesn’t matter that I believe in Christ or that I work in a nursing Home and visit sick and old people, but being Gay makes me a worthless person. Do you honestly believe you help Gay people by convincing them that they are worthless and that being who they are will send them to hell? I also quoted EXACTLY what was said about Ruth and Naomi as well as David and Jonathan. It DOES state that Ruth “cleaved” to Naomi in Ruth 1:14. This IS the same word used in Genesis 2:24 AND my Hebrew dictionary states that it means the same kind of meaning as in Genesis 2:24. In other contexts it can a bit different meaning. 2 Samuel 1:26 states “More precious have I (David) held love for you (Jonathan) than love for women.” 1 Samuel 18:3 states that “And Jonathan cut a covenant (berit) with David, because he loved him as as his own soul.” According to an Orthodox Rabbi, marriage was often just a contract which could be broken but a covenant or berit was something that was eternal and unbreakable. We have an eternal covenant with God. The TEXT (NOT ME) states that Jonathan entered into an eternal covenant because he loved David as his own soul. MIND you, I am not necessarily speaking about sex. But being gay (or straight) is not all about sex, but most of all about who someone loves. Fred Phelps was a bit more honest. He never claimed he believed that God loves Gays. He stated that “God Hates Fags.” Wouldn’t it be more honest of you to state that that is really what you believe, rather than “Jesus loves Gays, although he will burn them for eternity in hell for being Gay?” Burning someone FOREVER is NOT being loving at all. I take the burning hell as a metaphor of a life review at death where we can feel great regret for the hurt that we have done. I think trying to convince persons to hate themselves as they are is NOT an act of love. It is far more loving to accept people as they are and encourage to be the very best they can be, rather than to be something that they are not.

  • I feel badly for the religious LGBT folks within Islam. Most of Islam is comparable to fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity. The laws are cut and dried in both sets of scriptures not really open to another interpretation- except perhaps abstinence. We now much about the biological causes but the hardcore believers will never change. Like the Shakers, maybe those views will die off.

  • The irony is that in the NT and via Jesus’s words, Christians were to have nothing to do with earthly governments other than rendering Caesar’s things to Caesar. The Christian kingdom was a heavenly kingdom and justice was to be administered by god at some future point. If Caesar’s laws conflicted with god’s law, god was to be obeyed and the Christian suffered the consequences. Paul, as a tax paying Roman citizen, did use the courts but that was it. Now look at the situation! The world suffered through hundreds of years of theocracy and now we have so-called Christians being politically active and pushing theonomy. Apparently they can’t wait for Jesus.

  • You will not get to Heaven by works, Daniel. Christ is the only way to Heaven…..”I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father, except through Me.” John 14:6.
    Cut the pity party also, I’ve never done that to you.
    And there again, Daniel begins his word games trying to make simple scripture, filth – to justify the Bible he has written for himself.
    If you want a tour of Hell…I suggest you read Luke 16 for that.
    Homosexuality is a sin. Jesus said that He would forgive and heal us of our sin.
    Time to play word games with someone else Daniel. I’m just asking you to quit hurting homosexuals.

  • The exact words of Matthew 25:31-46 DOES say that a person can inherit Eternal Life by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and those in prison as well as giving drink to the thirsty. The persons who did these things did it to Christ and they did inherit eternal life. These are not MY words, they are the words of scripture. I actually DO visit the ill many times. Also, the persons being judged were the τα εθνη or the nations or the Gentiles. Many interpretations would state that it was actually persons who were neither Christian nor Jewish who were judged by their works. So this text also contradicts your idea that only people who think the way you do and have the exact religious views that you do are going to Heaven. There are many passages in the New Testament which states that we are judged according to our works. I showed you what the Bible stated exactly about Ruth and Naomi as well as David and Jonathan. These were not my words, I showed you the EXACT words of scripture. You obviously know that you are wrong because you resort to calling me a “fraud,” a “liar,” an “apostate,” and accusing me of being on a pity party. Attacking my character as you do IS trying to convince me that I am a worthless person and you don’t convince me of your argument by doing so. That is called an “ad hominem” argument. Accusing me of rewriting scripture when I quote the exact words of scripture is not an argument. I am making an effort not to attack your character. JUST what did the person do in Luke 16 for going to hell? He certainly wasn’t gay, he neglected the poor and needy Lazarus. Clearly you are rewriting Luke 16 when you make it about homosexuality, rather than about neglecting the poor man. I also DO think the torment in this story was the regret that the rich man had for his actions. Neglecting the poor and needy was the major sin of Sodom. Ezekiel 16:49. Gang rape in Ezekiel 16:50 is not acceptable if it is heterosexual. Judges 19 is almost very same story as Sodom and they ended brutally raping a woman. Is that alright because it was of a female? Jesus taught us NOT to Judge- Matthew 7:1-5. It certainly IS an extreme example of rewriting Jesus’ teaching about judging when you claim to know who is going to Heaven or Hell. Isn’t that up to God? Perhaps if a person was an INSPIRED prophet, they could know such things, but clearly you are not an inspired prophet at all.

  • That could be one difference between Christianity and Islam. In Islam, there is very little separation between religion and the State. Christianity, on the other hand, is not a formula for running a country, although it does have political implications. It might be more a formula for running a Church.

  • homosexuality is a sin Daniel. Jesus said that He would forgive and heal us of our sin.
    You have to stop hurting homosexuals

  • So it makes me an “apostate,” a “liar,” a “fraud” if I just don’t understand Scripture the way you do. I will go hell because I don’t agree with you. And if I object to you condemning me, I automatically am feeling self pity. I am a fundamentally dishonest person because I don’t understand
    Scripture the way you do. Any time I disagree with you I am deliberately distorting and rewriting Scripture. These are the things you have actually stated. I am not putting words in your mouth. Sandi, you are not going to convince me that we
    aren’t justified by faith, but rather by whether or not we are heterosexual. We certainly don’t go to Heaven just because of heterosexual works, but we certainly inherit eternal Life by such works as visiting the sick and feeding the hungry. Since Jesus said that we at times should hate our heterosexual spouse, he certainly wouldn’t say that whether or not we are heterosexual was THE most important criterion as to whether we go to Heaven or not.

  • Homosexuality is a sin. Jesus said that He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin.You have to stop lying to homosexuals.

  • So it makes me a very dishonest person if I don’t agree with you. I am rewriting Scripture if I don’t agree with you. Jesus told us to forgive those who actually hurt us. I don’t hurt anyone per se just because I am Gay. I don’t hurt people by telling them that they are children of God. Gay persons are much better off when they accept themselves as they are. Self hatred by not accepting their feelings is psychologically destructive. Saying Jesus cleanses people because they are gay is like saying he cleanses them of their skin color. Sandi, you started this conversation today, I didn’t start it with you. What you are engaging in is harassment. YOU hurt people by telling them they are evil because of the way they are. When you say I am not acceptable because I am who I am and that I should be something I am not, you just won’t win me over. You have given me no reason to believe that being Heterosexual is THE most important criterion as to whether we are Christian or not. I really know in my heart that you are not right. I have given this matter much thought and prayer and you refuse to respect me. I bet you very likely think it is alright for Christians to go to war, even though Christ taught us to Love our Enemies.

  • You are rewriting scripture because you do not agree with Christ and teach against what He taught.
    Homosexuals need to accept what Christ taught, or, as He taught, they will go to Hell.
    Skin colour is innate. Homosexuality is a choice.
    You are hurting people by endorsing lies about homosexuality making it appear “normal”, when it is just another sin.
    Homosexuality is a sin and you are hurting homosexuals. You need to stop.

  • Why can’t you leave me alone? Actually many “Christians” who are prejudiced against Gays are ALSO very prejudiced against blacks as well. The Nazis agreed with you about Gays and they were also Anti Semitic. I bet you hate Jews as well, since they don’t “accept” Christ. Persons who have similar rigid and authoritarian religious views to your own tend to be prejudiced against many groups of people, such as different religions and ethnicities, etc. Republicans are an example of a group which hates gays, but also hates blacks, immigrants, etc. I bet you harbor prejudices toward other groups other than gays. I bet there would be a good chance you would deliver a similar message to Jewish persons as you have to me. That is, that they are going to Hell, unless they adopt the same religious view you have. And Jews are God’s Chosen people. Your friend Bill on this thread actually expresses such a view about the Jews.

  • Christ said that homosexuality is a sin that will keep them out of the Kingdom of Heaven. You need to stop hurting homosexuals, Daniel
    .Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

  • Do you believe Jews are “unsaved” as well? That is Bill’s very words. Conservative Christians tend to hate anyone who isn’t like them. I don’t see Jesus as teaching us to hate those who are merely different. You have viciously attacked my character because I don’t think like you. We DON’T need forgiveness just for being different. You don’t help homosexuals by not accepting them.

  • Homosexuality is a sin, which Christ said that He would forgive and cleanse one of Daniel. You are hurting homosexuals.

  • Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Homosexuality is a sin, which Christ said will keep one out of the Kingdom of Heaven. He said the He would forgive and cleans us of our sins.

  • I am sure you DO believe Jews are going to Hell, unless they agree with you. We are discussing the sin of hating people who are different and using Religion to justify such hate, while pretending it is “love.” You just don’t want to admit that you harbor prejudices against groups other than Gays. There is also a very good chance you believe atheists are going to hell as well. Muslims and Buddhists will also be there in your mind.

  • No. We are discussing homosexuality and how Christ said it is a sin that will keep homosexuals out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

  • So that is “No,” you don’t think are Jews going to Hell or you just don’t want to admit you also think Jews will go to Hell? That would be an admission you hate groups other than Gays. Surely you believe all Atheists will go to hell.

  • You are the one who stated that being gay was not like bring black. You want to “stay on topic” because you don’t want to admit to other prejudices.

  • Yawn……homosexuality is a sin. Christ said that it will keep the homosexual out of the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ also said that He will forgive and heal us of our sin.

  • I just don’t agree with you. Christ taught that those who visit the sick and that whoever believes in him will NOT be condemned and will inherit Eternal Life (John 3:18 and Matthew 25) . You are telling me that Jesus is a liar. Since you believe that anyone who thinks differently from YOU is going to hell, you most likely hate many peoples.

  • Yawn…..you must be a Christian to go to Heaven Daniel.

    John 8:47New International Version (NIV)
    47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

    1 John 2: 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,”

    1 John 1:6 – If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

    1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

    Galatians 5:19-21
    New International Version (NIV)
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    I’m off to bed. Night night Daniel.

  • Perhaps Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9 was talking about persons who combine homosexual practice with idol worship. Prostitutes are actually ALSO in that list, but it probably meant idolatrous prostitutes, since as we know Rahab was accepted as a common prostitute in Hebrews 11 and James 2:25. We cannot be justified by faith and worship idols at the same time. But gay persons don’t necessarily worship idols. Male and female cult prostitutes DO or did since it would be hard to find them today.

  • None of these texts are at all about homosexuality. They only are about people who let their emotions rule them. Certainly Heterosexuals can let their passions rule them. We don’t have to completely deny our passions, but we shouldn”t be ruled by them. Donald Trump is a heterosexual who is ruled by his passions. You are being self righteous by pointing to gays as being licentious without acknowledging all the Heterosexuals who display unbridled lust. Not all Gays have unbridled lust and many heterosexual men will rape other men in prison. Heterosexuals condemn themselves when they condemn Gays, because many do the very same things. Romans 2:1.

  • The main commandment the letters of John is referring to is the law to Love our Neighbor. Galatians talks about “faith working through love,” RATHER than trying to be justified by keeping all the laws of Moses.

  • AND homosexuality is never referred to as porneia in the New Testament. Incest IS in 1 Corinthians 5.

  • You then DO say that Jews will go to Hell, since you say only persons who meet your definition of Christian are going to Heaven. Hitler hated both Gays AND the Jews. You seem to be proud of agreeing with Hitler. Jesus taught us to Love everyone. You use your religion as a basis for hatred against many different groups of people.

  • And they relish in the public condemning ALL those who do not fall into lockstep . They cream persecution when laws aren’t enacted to facilitate this fantasy.

  • I admire the tenacity of these folks, hoping to quickly evolve Islam more than a dozen centuries with such genteel practices. In that regard they’re essentially fashioning a brand new religion, so they might as well come up with a fresh new name for it. The radical Muslims will kill this off either way (along with these practitioners) since they are the ascendant strain of Islam that no one dare oppose.

  • Congratulations to those good people and the work they’re doing for Muslims! They are almost certainly saving lives from suicide, and quite likely homicide by hate groups and government authorities.

    Cleaning up misguided and inaccurate understandings of scripture is critical, whether it’s the Qu’ran or Christian or Hebrew bible. It’s especially heartening to read accurate descriptions of the Sodom and Gomorrah story:

    “Progressive Muslim scholars who have studied sexual orientation and gender identity issues within Islam have concluded that this story has nothing to do with sexual orientation but rather a multiplicity of atrocities — xenophobia, prostitution, social injustice,” Hendricks said. “

    It’s not only progressive Muslim scholars, but Christians too. The S&G story is referred to several times in the bible. Other than the original story in Genesis, only one of the others mentions sexual behavior. If the myth was all about sex, it is logical that would be emphasized each time. It’s not for the reason Hendricks describes.

  • Daniel, Sandy has decided what she knows and no amount of evidence makes any difference. I hope you won’t take what she says personally. Her smug self-righteousness can be very hurtful, her Christian witness is pathetic, but she’s only her own authority, regardless of what she says and how poor her behavior is. Take heart. Sandy is not Christianity. She is one mean and cruel person. Forget about her and move on. You can’t persuade someone who doesn’t think or listen.

  • Thank you so much. What you said made me feel a lot better. I actually didn’t think for a moment I would persuade her at all. I just thought I might persuade someone in the audience.

  • Johns Hopkins University disagrees with your obvious lie. BTW the sin of homosexuality has nothing to do with fundamentalism but in fact God’s word speaks directly against that sin.

    1 Cor 6:9-11 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor wantons, nor buggerers, (http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/diction.htm)
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified, in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Timothy 1:9-11
    9 Knowing this, that the Law is not given unto a righteous man, but unto the lawless and disobedient, to the ungodly, and to sinners, to the unholy, and to the profane, to murderers of fathers and mothers, to manslayers,
    10 To whoremongers, to buggerers (http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/diction.htm), to menstealers, to liars, to the perjured, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to wholesome doctrine,
    11 Which is according to the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, which is committed unto me.

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

    1 Samuel 15: 1 Samuel
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and transgression is wickedness and idolatry. Because thou hast cast away the word of the Lord, therefore he hath cast away thee from being king.

  • Yep you pegged the muslims….good for you. The only one here that makes that erroneous claim about Sodom and Gomorrah are homosexuals and those deceived by you.

  • The problem with you is you tend to ignore the scriptures and medical science that states quite plainly homosexuality is both dangerous and destructive. Fact is homosexuals are solely responsible for bringing aids/hiv into the USA. If you weren’t of your father the devil you wouldn’t read into things that just aren’t said or implied. No lets get down to actual facts i the bible shall we?

    Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    1 Corinthians 7:2
    Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    1 Corinthians 11:7
    For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

    1 Corinthians 11:9
    Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

    1 Corinthians 11:11
    Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    As you can see above homosexuality is condemned to the point of them being put to death with is carried over into the NT in Romans 1

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

    1 Samuel 15: 1 Samuel
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and transgression is wickedness and idolatry. Because thou hast cast away the word of the Lord, therefore he hath cast away thee from being king.

    Now to be honest you need to get saved to comprehend what you read as to not assume things are as you perverted them to say . You do know you condemn yourself every time you add to God’s word……but then again you wouldn’t know that because you don’t know the God of the bible and what he hath said.

  • And you Sandi… you go on, and on, and on…

    I see you’ve worked out how to switch your Disqus account to private. Nothing wrong with that, but… I never forget an obsessed individual who has almost exclusively focused their comments to LGBTQ issues. That says a lot Sandi. A lot about your heart, and frankly it should be a concern and I’m sorry to lay this out here but I do think it is important for those who might read your comments and might believe you are a Christian.

    A Christian walking in Jesus’ path, working to follow in His footsteps, would surely have much to say on the topics of justice, human dignity and the fight against global poverty. Yet what did I find a couple of months ago when I researched Sandy Luckins? What does she have to say in response to these issues? Virtually nothing!

    Such people, Dan Wagle, are frauds. I suspect Sandi is also rather a large person. Not that I’m judging her if she struggles with gluttony, but I suspect this person is not one to… (how can I put this?) … move around much.

    The heart is bitter and twisted when it works only on one issue, falsely couched in “Christian love”… so focused on the so-called sins of others she forgot where Christ spent his time (assuming we believe as I do, the stories of his adult lifetime, which I think we both do believe)

    Take none of Sandy’s nonsensical clap-trap to heart… Instead, live in the light because you will not find Sandy there but you will find other grace filled souls.

    Peace and love!

  • You’re a good man Daniel. Sandy knows she’s got it wrong, but she has issues and can’t move from them. We should pray for her really, despite her unloving heart. 🙁

  • Sandy spends all her time on LGBTQ related stories. She very rarely comments on anything else at all. She’s gone “private” on her account since I took to exposing this. She doesn’t like the truth, that she actually is a single issue Christian (unlike the Savior Himself)

  • Sandi is not involved in those things that Christ promoted as good deeds. She’s just a bitter big lady who has a twisted view of discipleship. I’m sorry to say, but when I looked over her Disqus account, that was VERY apparent. She won’t change either, because she thinks it’s right to be like that. She’s doing Christ’s bidding apparently…

    Peace & love (even to Sandy as she needs love really badly)

  • Well, I have no HIV or any Venereal diseases at all and I am now 56. I also am in a good relationship that helped me to retire a sizable credit card debt. He pays rent each month to stay with me. I have completely maintained a 105 pound weight loss for over 6 years now. This weight loss has dramatically improved my health. I ride my bike everyday and now eat no meat.

  • “Homosexuality is a choice”

    What a pile of camel excrement! And I do mean Sandi’s comment. Obviously not Sandi herself, although some might question it…

    He knows her heart. He knows.

  • Daniel, she doesn’t comment on anything apart from LGBTQ issues. Her now private Disqus account was wide open a couple of months ago and it was clear she carries a burden… daily rabid posting on human sexuality related website articles make this quite clear. The girl needs help from a counselor really. Please pray for her!!!

  • It is the only thing you discus (via Disqus anyway!)

    Will Christ say you did good Sandi?

    Christ had no problem taking time out, hiding away to recharge alone (well, with his Father) but Sandi just keeps on going. Making no difference, changing nobody, spreading no light.

  • She says “Yawn” but just continues to post the same things, day after day. She has a real problem, and it ain’t just a problem now but when she has to answer for it…

  • Actually, from reading what Daniel has to say, he is balanced and I think hard working (riding a push-bike to work each day to labor for the benefit of the aged in society as they live out their final years on Earth)… That puts him way above you Sandi as far as walking in Christ’s path. In my humble view of course, but the judgement will come to us both and I’m ready for it.

    You self righteous, opinionated, single issue, confused person.

  • You’ll be long gone love. But people will still be bemused by your addiction to posting the same crud over and over as the single issue “so-called-Christian” you claim to be…

  • That’s a bit complicated, too wide a discussion, for Sandi 😉

    She only really comments if it is about gay sex, or more specifically, to say the gays are going to hell…

  • I never implied you had a sexually transmitted disease did I? I didn’t ask about you homosexual behavior or how you support it but I did point out that it is condemned in the bible and most certainly a deadly and dangerous behavior. So please don’t do what you flaming liberals do best when your embarrassed…..equivocate.

  • In this culture where homosexuals are so lied to and hurt terribly by the lies that are placing them in Hell, my aim is to help as many as possible to not fall for the fraud.

  • As you know that little about the reality of homosexuality, thank you. It will show me how much relevance to show to the rest of your comments. blessings.

  • Christ said nothing about homosexuality. You, on the other hand Sandi, rant about it every day. Remember, your Disqus account was not private, and we discovered the truth about who you are!

    Christ, and countless numbers of His followers, did/do great work to deliver relief to those suffer oppression, poverty, pain and suffering… you though; oh my! What does Sandi do? Comments almost exclusively on news stories/blogs about the struggle of LGBTQ people.

    Twisted, pained, contorted… why? What is your pain that drives this unchristian focus?

    Go Sandy. Take s little break to help people who need help. Distribute water/food to those who need it. Anything really!

  • I see the truth about YOU!

    Switching your Disqus profile to private doesn’t change anything. He knows your heart!

    😉

  • Exactly Sandi. And it has zilch, nada, nothing to do with you. We know what you are… and more to the point, so does He!

  • Matthew 25:31-46 clearly states that those who DON’T feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and in prison WILL go into eternal punishment. Sandi falsely claims that it doesn’t matter whether we do such things or not, but only whether we are Heterosexual or not. She doesn’t really seem to think that Christ is the way either, but that being Heterosexual IS THE WAY.

  • Your statement about HIV is incorrect. As researchers have recently found — in the news this week, in fact — HIV came to the US from the Caribbean in the early 1970s. No one knows exactly how it happened, but commercial blood products were imported from that area until the mid-70s. The idea that a single gay flight attendant was responsible for HIV’s presence in the US has been proven false.

  • Actually it is you that is lying and to no surprise and yes I have actual facts.

    As for your erroneous single flight attendant, well you should have done your homework…..

    1981-1982

    The first recorded case of AIDS surfaced when the Center Disease
    Control, US, came across five homosexual males who were suffering from
    Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia in Los Angeles. At that time, the disease
    had no specific name and it came to be known as GRID (Gay Related
    Immune Deficiency) when a number of similar cases came to be reported in
    Southern California. All of these subjects were homosexual males and
    this first triggered the suspicion of the possibility of a sexually
    transmitted infection as the causal agent.
    Read more at Buzzle: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/history-of-hivaids.html

  • Please read the news. Like, news widely reported yesterday. Type in “Patient Zero” and do a news search. You claimed that gays were *solely* responsible for *bringing* HIV to the US. Both are false. Copying and pasting well-known information (see And The Band Played On) about how AIDS first came to the knowledge of US doctors is charming but not relevant.

  • Sorry, I don’t want homosexuals to go to Hell without the full reason. You seem to want them to….

  • Christ is the Word of the Bible. He is God. The Bible is the word of God. He condemned homosexuality all over the Bible.
    Thank you for trying to follow me closely. At least you will know the truth about how this culture is sending homosexuals to Hell. Why are you trying to?

  • Here you are again bloviating about your opinion AGAIN and have yet to debunk what I have stated and have yet to give factual evidence because the fact is all you liberals are capable of is repeating propaganda and foolishness…..and yes the band played on eh……

  • It’s not my opinion, it’s scientific fact. The exact mechanism of how HIV arrived in the US is unknown, and it was spread by more than just gay men. I don’t copy and paste walls of text or give lists of dubious links. I told you where to find the information. Did you?

  • Still you offer nothing but propaganda and your opinion neither which I believe. Go do you homework and come back when you have those ahem….ahem… “scientific facts”.

  • If you consider mainstream news to be “propaganda,” there’s really nothing further to discuss. I’ve done my homework, but unlike you I consulted current sources, not those from 20 years ago. I also understand the difference between how the virus first arrived and how the disease was first diagnosed. Do you?

  • You are obsessed by it Sandi.

    There is one truth in particular I will take pleasure in revealing…

    We know you are obsessed about this topic, we know this from checking out your Disqus profile a few months back (before you changed it, presumably to stop people like me pointing out the truth about you, haha)

    We know you obsess on this topic, and post on an almost daily basis. It appears you don’t get bothered by the poverty in this world or helping those suffering today. You never post on those issues… oh no, you’re so far from being like Jesus aren’t you Sandi? So, so far….

  • Well, if you think you will be in heaven… well frankly that seems to be a reason NOT to go there… I can’t imagine anywhere worse than an eternity in the same place as you!

    Of course, I don’t believe He will do that to us. He will put you at one end and let the Christian gay people in heaven have somewhere at the other end of heaven!

  • Arbustin, you probably need to consider doing what I did some time ago… “Block Bill”!

    Of course, that’s up to you. I respect you for taking on terrible so-called Christians…

  • You wouldn’t know a lie if it walked up to your face, slapped both your cheeks with fishy hands, blew a raspberry at you and shouted into both ears, “I’m a lie”

    That’s because you have a narrow mind Sandi, as evidenced by the singular issue that your Disqus account is used for. You don’t engage with the world on any other topic. You’re a one trick pony. You’ve singularly failed to follow in the footsteps of our Heavenly Father and Lord, and it is terribly sad for you.

  • Sorry, there is nothing in scripture that says that Heaven doesn’t exist if Paul on the internet disagrees with my Word.

  • Jesus loves me. He loves you also. If you have put yourself on the road to Hell, you don’t need to end up there.

  • Ha ha ha ha…. hypocrite Sandi, you should try following Christ. He is the way, the truth and the light.

    Try doing some of the things Christ did Sandi! Come into the light Sandi! Feed some poor, help those in poverty! Become like Christ and do good in this World to prepare the path for yourself and others to enter the Kingdom!

    I know this falls on your deaf ears Sandi… every day wasting your existence on the same singular subject. Having zero success at achieving what you proclaim to be your goal to save the gays. Follow Christ Sandi, the way, the truth, and the light!

  • I don’t need to read Daniel’s words, but I’m sure they are not lies.

    I’m less sure about YOUR words Sandi.., Sandi who we found is obsessed with discussing only the topic of homosexuality on her Disqus account. Nothing else. No poverty issues, world inequality, diseases we could cure as a global community. No. Sandi we know you, and He knows your heart.

    What eats you up Sandi? Can we pray for you?

  • I am very well acquainted with the reality of homosexuality and many other things.

    You, on the other hand… well Sandi we know all about your foibles and your struggle to think about others. We know about how selfish you are, after seeing your Disqus account. The revelation that you discuss nothing else except homosexuality with it. That says a lot about your heart. He knows our hearts Sandi, and the time will come when He reveals this to you. Praying for your soul now!

  • Oh no, we are not! We are discussing Sandi’s problem with her life and her difficulties following Christ’s example.

    Read about Jesus please Sandi. You need to consider your behavior and if it really is Christian! You need to take a break from focus on a relatively small number of people (who, let’s be honest, don’t want or need your help!)

    Seek to do good for those Jesus would help if He were man in the flesh today. No need to never have another go at your special version of creating disciples, but do that as well. Just make time for those who need us all. The poor, hungry, the sick and others.

    I’ll pray, even though I know it will be hard for you!!

  • So have you. And you’ve exhibited gluttony. You’re significantly overweight aren’t you? Are you obese? (I’m not being nasty or offensive, I do want to help you)

  • I never said Jesus did not love you. Funny you should feel the need to mention it at all. Why do you feel you need to reinforce the fact that Jesus loves you?

    I wonder, would Jesus love you more if you did productive things to help the oppressed? The poor?

    The road I am on is none of your business actually, but I walk with Him. I think he is sad that you won’t follow him more closely…

  • I am doing what Christ asked. Perhaps you need to read the Great Commission and stop trying to dissuade me from doing what the Lord asked.

  • Yes, Daniel lies to homosexuals and is trying to keep them out of the Kingdom of Heaven.Galatians 5:19-21
    New International Version (NIV)
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • I am Paul, thanks. Homosexuality is a sin.Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
    Christ then went and died for them, should they accept His gift of salvation, if they repent of their sin and turn to Him.

  • Sorry to see you so pleased about people going to Hell.

    Galatians 5:19-21

    New International Version (NIV)

    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • Galatians 5:19-21

    New International Version (NIV)

    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • Galatians 5:19-21

    New International Version (NIV)

    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • A fundamental tenant of Christianity is that we are all born sinners, and we have no choice but to exist in relationship to our sinful natures.

    Christians accept as inevitable that any given Christian will, for instance, on occasion, drink too much, eat too much when their body doesn’t need it or when they are already showing their excessive unecessary consumption (possibly like Sandi), or we may lust, or tell a lie.

    Saint Paul condemns, along with reference to same sex acts, many of those specific sins.

    Christians don’t think that they are expected to never commit any degree of those sins. They understand that circumstances and normal human weaknesses must be taken into account before condemning any transgression. We all readily understand and accept the moral distinction between drinking socially and being a drunk; between a lustful thought and committing adultery; between telling a flattering white lie and chronically lying.

    Sandi is just a little bit obsessive though. She focuses purely on the sin of same sex activity. She doesn’t see the difference between same sex activities between loving, consenting adults in faithful and committed relationships, and those between a Roman and their young man servant/slave. She spends the VAST majority of her time on this; it is indeed an obsession (her Disqus profile clearly showed this before she switched it to private after this was highlighted to her… she clearly felt she needs to hide this fact)

    Poor Sandi… woe to her! (I have prayed for her). She neglects the more important matters of justice, mercy and faithfulness.

    She strains at gnats and is busy swallowing camels!

  • So why do you lie? And why do you not walk with Him? His journey went to many places; why do you narrow your gaze in such a limited area of life?

    Why do you limit yourself to this? There are so many other ways that we can bring the light of Christ into the life of the family of humanity!

    Are you suffering from mental illness? Can we pray for you?

  • He taught us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. These are things you are not concerned about at all. He also did NOT condemn the rich man to hell for homosexuality in Luke 16, but neglecting the poor man. That is an example of how YOU rewrite scripture. You rewrite scriptures that condemn neglecting the poor and needy to being about homosexuality, for instance Ezekiel 16:49. You also rewrote what Jesus stated in Matthew 25:31-46 to deny that a person could receive Eternal Life on the basis of doing good to the “least of these.” When we do these things we do them to Christ. When we marginalize and hate on Gays, we also marginalize and hate on Jesus. Jesus identifies with anyone who is marginalized and oppressed. SHAME on you for saying Jesus condemned the oppressed.

  • You neglect the more important matters… justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should practice these Sandi. It is not your place to invest the life our Father has given you in this crusade you believe it is right to follow. Certainly not at the neglect of walking with Jesus to help others.

    You are mistaken if you believe your addiction to this work is helping you go to heaven…

  • That is NOT the only thing Jesus told us to do. You are failing as a Christian if that is all you believe you should do. You are only walking with Him on part of your journey, then you are leaving Him because you think you know better than He. You are continuing to fail Him 🙁

  • And gluttony Sandi. Are you hugely overweight due to sitting all day and consuming more than you need to? Are you struggling to tackle this?

    Do you think that spending your time ignoring your sin, but moralizing over a sin you perceive others commit will somehow atone for your transgressions? It will not; you do know that Sandi, don’t you?

    Can we pray for you?

  • I wonder what he and his “ilk” have to say about the production o drugs to prevent transmittal of HIV and to stop it killing those who get it?

    I don’t see Bill’s nonesense since I blocked him but it is the gifts of science and of clever brothers and sisters in humanity that has advanced the scientific understanding. It is indeed gifts from God that are enabling defeat of the virus causing the disease AIDS.

  • It is just, merciful and faithful to tell someone they are sinning and it will keep them out of the kingdom of Heaven.

  • Matthew 28:16-20English Standard Version (ESV)

    The Great Commission

    16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

  • New International Version
    Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

  • Sorry, but I am not your friend. I don’t think you have many friends. If you could bring yourself to actually walk with Christ and do the things he taught his disciples to do… well then maybe we could find common ground and be friends. Until you buck your ideas up though and do that… ain’t no friend of mine Sandi. Probably not a friend of many people at all. More in love with yourself and your screen (going by the intensity of your activity on only one facet of humanity’s existence (sexuality, and pretty much exclusively that of the homosexuals among the population!)

    When you do take a break, achieve some of the things Christ commanded us to do as Christians… maybe I’ll reconsider this “friend” comment. Until then, I don’t consider you or anyone who would act as you do, to be a friend. Sorry:(

  • Sandi spends all her time on this. Not helping the poor or clothing the unclothed. What kind of a Christian does that? Judgement day will sort you out lady…

  • That’s what I do when I occasionally (3 or 4 times a year) see you active, spewing the same crud over and over again. Of course, now we can reveal what you’re like Sandi, after we were able to research your interests in your Disqus account. Walk with Christ Sandi, follow his lead instead of your own agenda!

  • Matthew 28:16-20English Standard Version (ESV)

    The Great Commission

    16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

  • Nope. I learned nothing from you the first time I saw what you said a year ago. And every time I see you spewing your crud out again it’s just the same stuff. And you talk about how I and others should follow Jesus but you aren’t doing that yourself. That is hypocrisy, plain and simple. We know from your Disqus profile months ago, that you are all about homosexuality and the sin you perceive it to be. Nothing about social justice, poverty, empowerment of the poor etc

    He knows your heart Sandi. You think you’re going to heaven…. jeeez!

  • Let’s return to helping people from the sin of homosexuality, as that is the topic of the article. Shall we?

    Revelation 2:20 International Standard Version (ISV)
    20 But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet and who teaches and leads my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

  • If you walk with Christ, why would you be trying to draw people away from His truth? Homosexuality is a sin.

  • No Sandi, I want to help you with your over eating and laziness. Gluttony is a serious sin. I think… no, I KNOW… you don’t have anything new to say. You spend all your time repeating the same stuff and ignoring the commands of our Lord to do more that’s you are doing… that’s a problem Sandi. It’s a serious problem you need to deal with.

  • Yes God does know my heart, and He knows my motives also. Praise Him.

    BIBLICAL SUMMARY OF HOMOSEXUALITY

    • A wicked act (Gen 19:7; Judges 19:23)

    • An abomination (Lev 18:22; Lev. 18:26; Lev. 18:27; Lev. 18:29; Lev. 18:30; Lev. 20:13)

    • Folly (Judges 19:23)

    • A vile act (Judges 19:24)

    • A vile affection (Rom 1:26)

    • An act against nature (Rom 1:26)

    • An abusive act (1 Cor 6:9)

    • A sin against one’s own body (1 Cor 6:18)

    • An act that defiles (Lev. 18:24; Lev. 18:25; Lev. 18:27; Lev. 18:28; Lev. 18:30; 1 Tim 1:9)

    • Those that practice it shall not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor 6:9-10; Jude 1:7; Jude 1:13; Rev. 21:8; Rev. 21:27)

    (many thanks to Adam in Christ for this excellent summary)

  • I’m simply pointing out your fixation with the subject, to the detriment of your soul. Christ weeps at your failure to do more and to see the error of your ways.

  • You are failing to walk with Him Sandi. Repeating the error you made many times, despite what I have shown you in scripture. That is very wrong Sandi. Repent.

  • That is exactly what I just said you should do. You should do this, for it places distance, and a walk, between you and the Lord.

  • Just another cut and paste repeat, wasted on a limited audience who’ve seen your twisted actions many times over.

    You continue to ignore the Word. The Word of Christ the Lord.

    Do you drink heavily as well as eat the wrong foods, and too much food? Why do you fail to tuse your capabilities to do good for others? You dishonor the body and the mind that God hath given you. Find something good to do for others. Walk WITH Christ. Walk in the LIGHT Sandi.

    Repent and reconsider your shameful continuation of this disobedience to Him!

  • 2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

  • Colossians 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

  • Isaiah 26:10 – New International Version
    But when grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and do not regard the majesty of the LORD.

  • Revelation 2:20 International Standard Version (ISV)

    20 But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet and who teaches and leads my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

  • “Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” Titus 1:15&16.
    Perhaps you should learn about Jesus before proceeding. I recommend starting with the book of John. Blessings Paul

  • The MAIN command in 1 John was to “love one another.” For instance, 1 John 4:7-12 states, “Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.” SO, if “God is Love,” would God REALLY condemn someone to a burning fire just because of a characteristic that they had no control over?Sandi, you are wrong that homosexual orientation is a choice. You don’t understand homosexuality OR the mind of Christ on this matter at all. A God of Love would NOT condemn someone for being Gay or being black or any kind of immutable characteristic. You deny that homosexuality is not a choice, because that would make your point of view about it purely evil.

  • Loving one another is not lying to them about homosexuality and asking them to defy Christ, Daniel.
    Christ said homosexuality is a sin. All you are showing is that you follow an idol and not Christ, Daniel.

    1 Corinthians7 – Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.”
    Romans 1:26 – “..Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations….”

  • You are making an idol of heterosexuality and you don’t follow Jesus by making being heterosexual a more important value than the Love of Neighbor. You can’t say you Love God, but hate Gay people. 1 John 4:20 states ” if anyone says “I love God” but hates his brother, he is a liar for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen”
    So Love of God by loving each other is far more important than being Heterosexual. Jesus stated the greatest command was Love. He never stated the greatest command was to be Heterosexual. Paul stated in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails, but Faith working through Love.” Notice Paul doesn’t say “faith working through Heterosexual marriage” or through a long list of rules that you advocate, but only “Faith working through Love.”

  • No. I follow Jesus. I have no use for idols. Perhaps you should try it.
    Galatians is referring to salvation, Daniel.
    You have to stop hurting people.

  • You DO make an idol out of being Heterosexual. We are NOT saved by being Heterosexual. You hurt and lie to people when you say we are saved by being Heterosexual. Paul NEVER stated that we are. Nor did Jesus. It is “Faith working through Love.”

  • you need to resort to lying, Daniel?
    John 3:3 – John 3:3 English Standard Version (ESV)

    3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”Christ said that homosexuality is a sin.

    Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
    Revelation 21:8 ESV
    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
    (edited)

  • Paul NEVER stated that we are saved by being Heterosexual. Paul stated, “There is no partiality with God.” Romans 2:11. Revelation 14:4 states, “These are those who are not defiled (μολυνω or molyno which means “to pollute, stain, contaminate, defile.”) with women; these are Virgins and these are the ones who Follow the Lamb wherever he goes.” So HETEROSEXUAL relationships, EVEN heterosexual marriages can be “polluting, staining, contaminating, or defiling” if they are mixed with idol worship. Probably that helps us to understand what Paul meant by “unnatural” in Romans 1. NO relationship, including heterosexual marriage, was considered “natural” if it is mixed with idol worship. Clearly Romans 1 is talking about idol worshipers, but Paul never stated that only Gay people worship idols. God is no respecter of persons. Heterosexual marriages, such as Ahab’s marriage to Jezebel alluded to in Revelation 2:20 are defiling and polluting if it is mixed with idol worship. Paul wouldn’t say gay people are intrinsically more sinful than are heterosexual persons. We ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God. God is no respecter of persons and God is impartial.

  • And Daniel continues writing his own Bible……
    Revelation 21:8 ESV

    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

  • I looked up all of these words in my Greek dictionary. We must remember that the context of Revelation is that the Church is being persecuted by the Romans because they refused to worship the emperor. They were not supposed to do this and to do this would be considered to be apostasy and idol worship. Very little about Revelation is about sex of any kind. There ARE sexual metaphors for idol worship. Prostitution and the word Harlot are often used as symbols of idol worship. This does NOT mean ALL prostitutes are idol worshipers. So most of these terms condemn those who didn’t hold fast to the faith and therefore they worshiped idols, such as the Caesar. As for what the terms mean. The first term is cowardly or δειλοις (deilois) which means according to my Greek dictionary “Christians who through cowardice give way under persecutions and apostasize.” The second term is faithless or απιστοις (apistois) This means they betrayed their faith by worshiping the emperor. The third term or abominable is εβδελυγμενοις (ebdelygmenois) which doesn’t mean homosexuality but rather things that pertain to idols and idol worship. HOMOSEXUALITY wasn’t the “idol worship” they had in mind, but rather the worship of the emperor. The fourth term is murderer or φονευσιν (phoneusin) It simply means murderer. The fifth term is πορνοις, (pornois) or male prostitute. This MIGHT agree with you, but I do think it means male CULT prostitute, that is males who prostituted their bodies in the service of worshiping other Gods. Revelation 22:15 talks about the “dogs” which clearly means male cult prostitute (Deuteronomy 23:18-19 refers to male cult prostitutes as “dogs”) Hebrews 12:16 calls Esau a male prostitute, but we know this had nothing to do with sex, but rather he “prostituted” his birthright for a single meal. So pornos does not necessarily mean a gay man, since at least not all gay men are prostitutes. The term can certainly be used metaphorically as it was in Esau’s case. If it means male CULT prostitute, then we know it is primarily the worship of idols that is condemned. Sorcerers or φαρμακοις (pharmakos) refers to attempting miracles through false Gods. If we trust in the true God for a miracle, we are not guilty of magic. Idol worshipers or ειδωλολατρεις is self explanatory, and it doesn’t mean that only homosexuals are idol worshipers or that homosexuality IS idol worship. Animals were often sacrificed in idolatrous rites and people would often eat the meat from these sacrifices. That is the meaning of Revelation 2:20 and NOT homosexuality. Prostitutes are not always idol worshipers either, even though the word for prostitute can be used symbolically of idol worship. Liars or ψευδης (pseudes) means lying and deceitful. SO, the ONLY word used that can POSSIBLY mean homosexuality is pornos, but idol worshipers were often called prostitutes. Revelation 17:1b-2 uses the word for female prostitute to indicate idol worshiper and uses sexual metaphors to describe this idolatry. It states, “Come here. I will show you the judgment on the great harlot (porne) who lives near the many waters. The kings of the earth have committed fornication with her and the inhabitants of the earth became drunk on the wine of her harlotry (porneia). So here it does NOT mean “sex outside of marriage” but rather worshiping false Gods. OF COURSE, you are going to say I am rewriting scripture. I just am quoting exactly what the Greek dictionary said these words meant. I am just reading the Bible in context, NOT rewriting it. Anyway, if it is SO bad to “rewrite” the Bible, would you condemn Paul for “rewriting” the story of Sarah and Hagar (Galatians 4:21-31) to mean that Sarah represents the freewoman and Hagar our slavery to the Law? Paul actually STATED he was using an allegory in verse 24.

  • Another difficulty in knowing whether πορνος (pornos) means common male prostitute or male CULT prostitute is that the Greek language did not have two separate terms for this. Only pornos was used for male prostitutes of any kind. In Hebrew, on the other hand, zonah was used for common prostitutes who weren’t connected with an idolatrous cult and qadesh was use for male cult prostitute and qesheshah was used for female cult prostitute. I really DO think pornos means male CULT prostitute in Revelation 21:8 because it is sandwiched between many terms that mean idol worship. Homosexuality is not per se idol worship, but cult prostitution IS per se idol worship. And Revelation 22:15 which has κυνες (kynes) or dogs which means male CULT prostitute, also includes the term for male prostitute (πορνος) as well as idol worshipers. Τhis simultaneous use of terms could mean pornos means the same thing as dog. Sorcery or φαρμακοι (pharmakoi) was listed BOTH Revelation 21:8 and 22:15 also has an idolatrous element. Trusting in a false God for a miracle was considered to be sorcery. Trusting in the true God for a miracle was not considered to be sorcery.

  • The wrath of God could be upon you Sandi, for your unchristian activity. Walk with Him Sandi. Exercise physically. Work for the benefit of the poor, those in need, as Jesus himself hath spoken and demonstrated by his work when man. Walk with Him Sandi, do not be so alone!

  • That was a serious question. If you are struggling with mental illness then there are people who will pray for you including me.

  • Recommend all you like Sandi. You are not His, so I’m not sure why I would follow your advice. Walk with Him, and do the things Christ bids we do. Not one thing but all the things. That is where you will find love, and your heart will be changed. He knows our hearts. He knows what you need and if you read (not just John obviously, but start there if you wish) then the Truth will be revealed to you, and your heart will be changed as you walk with Him!

  • Yes, indeed! Do re-read those commandments and follow Him Sandi. Do not follow what you think He says but what He actually says, and follow His examples. That means, not just a focus on news stories on websites about homosexuality. It is far wider than this. Your heart will be changed when you work outside of the narrow confines of what you have done with your Disqus account so far. Get up, go out, and “do”! Help others who really WANT and NEED you. For this is the Truth of the life Jesus wants you to live! Peace and love.

  • But you do NOT follow Jesus. Not fully anyway. You confine yourself to this one area of life and repeat the same stuff over and over… and to the same people who are as convinced they are right as you are convinced you are right.

    When it comes to judgement day, we will ALL answer for our own sins and not to each other. Your views will be as worthless to anyone as mine will be.

    I will have to answer for my life choices, and you will have to explain why you chose to behave as you did. Where were you and I when we had the opportunity to help others?

    Were we at a keyboard insisting we are right or were we out in the World, helping those in need, in pain, suffering, in poverty, oppressed, struggling, alone, depressed, lacking education, unable to see, hear, read, write… who did you and I help? How did we demonstrate our compassion and love for God’s children?

    Your Discus account revealed a lot about your character. If that is what I saw, what does God think about you Sandi? That’s a rhetorical question; it really is none of my business, but it is a question you (we all) should be pondering…

  • Sandi has many cut and paste, repeat and repeat posts. This is a favorite. It won’t save her on the day of atonement though!

  • Something for you, Paul:

    Romans 1:32English Standard Version (ESV)

    32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

  • Acts 15:19-20New International Version (NIV)

    19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

  • 1 Corinthians 6:18

    New International Version

    Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

  • 1 Corinthians 6:9-11English Standard Version (ESV)

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  • Romans 1:32English Standard Version (ESV)

    32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

  • Romans 1:32English Standard Version (ESV)

    32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

  • You fail to go further and read Romans 2:1. Romans 1 was actually Paul’s quotation of persons who wanted to condemn all Gentiles as being hopeless sinners. Paul’s response to this was in 2:1 which states, “Therefore you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgement. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself since you, the judge, do the very same things.”
    Examples of how you are guilty of doing the same things that you accuse others of are in rewriting every verse in the Bible to be a condemnation of homosexuality, rather than to be of such things as neglecting the poor and needy. You rewrote Matthew 25:31-46 to say it doesn’t matter if we feed the hungry or not. You accuse all homosexuals of being idol worshipers while you yourself worship heterosexuality as being salvific. It is idolatry to trust in your own heterosexuality for your salvation. When you judge others you condemn yourself, since you clearly do the very same things, Sandi.

  • Yes, Daniel, but they aren’t discussing people who say they are serving Jesus and then teach against what He taught.
    lol…..I don’t need to worship “heterosexualty”…lol….I worship Jesus. You are the one rewriting the Bible trying to change every condemnation of homosexuality. What does that say that you worship?
    I’ve rewritten nothing. I just keep showing you things that you need to know.
    You’ve gone apostate, if you ever were a Christian, and you are hurting people, Daniel.
    But thanks for the blessings.

    Colossians 3:5

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires.

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