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This Vatican adviser is moving Catholics toward LGBT inclusion

James Martin says LGBT people are treated like lepers in the Catholic Church, and it's time for a change. Image courtesy of James Martin

(RNS) In 1992, the Vatican under Pope John Paul II published the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which stated, among many other things, that “homosexual tendencies” are “objectively disordered.” One of the principal theologians who shaped the document was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who would succeed John Paul II as Pope Benedict XVI. He too would take a hard-line stance against homosexuality.

Two decades later, Pope Francis has signaled what many believe to be a softening on the matter.

In 2013, when asked about gay priests, he famously replied, “Who am I to judge?” He has continued to call for the Catholic Church to treat LGBT people with dignity and respect, and to fight discrimination against sexual minorities.

But the church may be on the cusp of another baby step in this ongoing discussion with the publication of a new book by a popular Jesuit priest, James Martin: “Building a Bridge: How the Catholic Church and the LGBT Community Can Enter Into a Relationship of Respect, Compassion, and Sensitivity.

Martin argues the church must move from a position of tolerance to inclusion when it comes to LGBT people. He criticizes the language of disorder from the catechism, calls on Catholics to stop firing LGBT people from church positions and frequently uses terms like “gay” and “lesbian” that many Catholic officials avoid.


RELATED: Top Vatican and US church officials back new gay-friendly book


The book carries with it a sense of authority. It was approved by Martin’s Jesuit superiors and is endorsed by two Catholic cardinals and a bishop. And Martin was recently appointed by Francis as consultant to the Vatican’s Secretariat for Communication, which manages Vatican TV  and radio as well as the pope’s social media presence.

I sat down with Martin to discuss his message, and he told me he isn’t the only person connected to the Vatican who wishes to see the church move toward LGBT inclusion. Here we discuss what that looks like, how likely it is to happen and why he is putting his reputation on the line to fight for it.

You’re arguing for inclusion of LGBT in Catholic churches. How is it possible to include someone that your church believes is actively living in sin?

Image courtesy of HarperOne

Simply being LGBT is not sinful, according to Catholic teaching. That’s a common misconception. Even the catechism talks about welcoming them with “respect, compassion and sensitivity,” which is the genesis of the book’s subtitle. More basically, LGBT Catholics are baptized, and so they’re as much a part of the church as the pope. Sometimes when LGBT people tell me they feel like they’re being pushed out of the church, I’ll say, “Don’t let anyone push you out.  It’s your church too.”

Let’s assume you’re successful and churches open their arms to the LGBT community. Is it even possible for LGBT people to feel welcome in the Catholic Church?

​Yes, and many parishes show what this means in practice.  Of course, some parishes are more forward-thinking and have LGBT support groups, like the successful “Out at St. Paul” group at the Church of St. Paul the Apostle in New York. But there are quieter ways of welcoming LGBT people — mentioning them in homilies; encouraging them to participate as lectors, ministers of hospitality and in other parish ministries, and getting to know them personally.​ And, above all, listening to them.

A lot of Catholic leaders avoid using labels like “gay” and “lesbian,” opting instead for terms like “same-sex attracted.” Why did you decide to use the more common labels?

Because those are the terms that LGBT people use. People have a right to name themselves. It’s similar to the reason we no longer use terms like “Negro.” Why not?  Because the African-American community opted for terms like “African-American” and “black” over time. Catholics are supposed to treat LGBT people with “respect,” and it’s disrespectful in the extreme to continue to use names that they not only don’t use, but reject. ​

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” Do you affirm and agree with this teaching and language?

I’m no theologian, but I would say that some of the language used in the catechism on that topic needs to be updated, given what we know now about homosexuality. Earlier, for example, the catechism says that the homosexual orientation is itself “objectively disordered.” But, as I say in the book, saying that one of the deepest parts of a person — the part that gives and receives love — is disordered is needlessly hurtful. A few weeks ago, I met an Italian theologian who suggested the phrase “differently ordered” might convey that idea more pastorally.

Can you understand the pain that LGBT Catholics have felt?

Absolutely. Over the past 20 years, I’ve done what you might call an “informal ministry” with LGBT Catholics. They’ve come to me for spiritual counseling, confession and conversation. And they’ve told me the most appalling stories of being ignored, excluded and insulted — by priests and lay workers in their parishes. There is simply no group as marginalized in the Catholic Church as LGBT people. Sometimes they’re treated like lepers. So yes, I understand their pain.

Recognizing that this is just conjecture, how do you predict the Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality will be different in 100 years?

​I hope that the church would more fully embrace Jesus’ call to reach out to those on the margins, those who feel excluded. In the past, when it came to the LGBT community, we led with condemnations. Which is not what Jesus does. For Jesus it is, more often than not, a welcome first. Think of the story of Zacchaeus, the chief tax collector in Jericho, who would have been considered the chief sinner in the city. As he’s passing through Jericho, Jesus sees him and says, “Tonight, I must dine at your house!” It’s a public sign of welcome. That came first for Jesus, and that’s what should come first for the church. ​

What kind of pushback do you expect to receive?

Most likely, some church leaders will think I’ve gone too far, and some LGBT people will think I haven’t gone far enough. A few church leaders ​might find the call to stop firing LGBT people in same-sex marriages a challenge, and some LGBT Catholics might find my call to treat the hierarchy with respect a challenge. On the other hand, the book has been endorsed by two cardinals, one of them an official in the Vatican.  So I think there’s an opening here. And the LGBT people who have read it have thanked me for writing it. So something is changing in the church. Something new is happening.  I think it’s the right time for a book like this.

(RNS Senior Columnist Jonathan Merritt writes the “On Faith and Culture” column)

About the author

Jonathan Merritt

Jonathan Merritt is senior columnist for Religion News Service and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. He has published more than 2500 articles in outlets like USA Today, The Week, Buzzfeed and National Journal. Jonathan is author of "Jesus is Better Than You Imagined" and "A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars." He resides in Brooklyn, NY.

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  • James Martin states “Simply being LGBT is not sinful, according to Catholic teaching”. I would believe that is a correct statement according to the Catholic teaching. God says something different. The word of God is the counsel of God. We cannot get around it. But we know that any sex outside of marriage is sin. Homosexual relationship is outside of Gods design for mankind. If the Catholic church condones the relationship and believes it should be accepted and embraced, then how come this relationship cannot produce a child? The Catholic church promotes child bearing. “Go, be fertile and multiply.” Given the biblical indications, generating new life is on the top of the priority list for God. This is just one example of why people are leaving the Catholic church in droves. Biblical Truth vs Catholic Doctrine. I’m standing on the side of Gods word and what he says, not what the Catholic church says.

  • As a catholic, I will agree with Martin that respect is due as all are due respect. Ostracizing people does nothing to bring people to God. However, Martin and possibly the interviewer, never get down to the crux of what Martin is advocating. Is he advocating acceptance of what the RCC has deemed since the beginning as sinful? Is this about welcoming people in the hopes the RCC can bring light to these sins and conversion? Is this about recognizing SSM as the same as traditional marriage? When will people start talking about the massive gray areas of issues because that is what is holding people back and causing much confusion.

    Martin brings up the tax collector and Jesus, but he does not go any deeper than Jesus going against commonly held convention of the time of associating with sinners. Does Jesus’ actions imply that Jesus was accepting of sinful behavior as was the belief? Or is this about Jesus going to sinful people and showing them the way out of it? That the love Jesus has for all is about loving enough to go wherever they are no matter the sin to pull them up into the light, truth, salvation. When you come down to it, if this is the stance Martin is advocating, there will always be rejection of what the RCC teaches by those who do not like what they hear. It is incompatible for the RCC to want to save people by teaching what is sinful (all sins) with those who refuse to accept what they do as being sinful and be authentic. To turn a blind eye is hypocrisy. Perhaps what is needed is to be welcoming as it does with anyone in any sinful state, and have the patience to allow God to show people what is needed for salvation even if that takes a lifetime. The line is when anyone, any group, believes that what is and has been a sin could change because people think its changeable.

  • “…how do you predict the Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality will be different in 100 years than it is now?” You might consider how God changes God’s mind, and that the Church does also. God changes as God responds to human action or need, sometimes quickly. With the Church change happens… it just takes a long time.

  • “This is just one example of why people are leaving the Catholic church in droves.” I suspect the losses here are miniscule compared to other causes. In fact, there might not even be a loss because those who leave are replaced by those who bias favors the Church’s. No, the hemorrhaging of members is likely do to other causes. Many leave the Church over birth control and the incessant campaigns against abortion. Many leave in disgust over priests failure to keep their celibacy vow. Others leave because there are too few priest and they have their congregation closed around them. But far more leave the Church because it refuses to show mercy to the divorced and remarried.

  • So how do you determine which people are leaving because the church is at least trying, in a vague, general and minuscule sort of a way, to deal better with gay people, and how many are leaving because of antigay attitudes disguised as religious belief?

    Same coin, opposite sides.

    And then let’s start talking about how many people are leaving the church because of centuries of child molestation? OR, more accurately, the attempt of some in the church to blame it on gay men in general, instead of the actual culprits: catholic priests who never group up, never dealt with their sexual issues, and see so many children under their care as targets?

    Same coin, different sides.

  • You’re quite right. Ostracizing people does not bring anyone to god.

    For2000 years, the church has done nothing but ostracize gay people, viciously promote a vicious prejudice, and attempt to pin its own problems with its own priesthood on people who have and have had nothing to do with it,

    If the church just left it at “we believe homosexuality is a sin”, there would be very little to argue with. Except that that cuts both ways. They would not receive much opposition. They also wouldn’t have much of a case.

    But no.

    They attempt to pin their priestly molestation problem on gay men. They give homosexuality the only sin designation of “inherent tendency towards grave moral evil.” They use the word “evil”. THey also use “inherently disordered.” They have the likes of Cardinal O’Brien denouncing gay marriage and gay people, while hiding his own vicious past. They have Cardinal George comparing gay people to the Ku Kux klan. They attempt to force catholic dogma on people who are not Catholics through force of civil law. They turn a blind eye towards the millions of Catholics who use birth control, and ignore them when they say “stop attacking our friends and family.”

    The church most likely WILL change, as so many churches have.

  • “Simply being LGBT” is not the same as “sex outside marriage.” It is not even the same as a “relationship.” The “t” part is transsexuals. Just to be clear. That isn’t even sexual activity.

    Moving on, honestly, the average Catholic is likely to accept homosexual relationships, if somewhat less than the numbers who use contraceptives. If we are actually concerned with raw membership here in a simply pragmatic way, shunning even gays and lesbians who don’t have sex (but who might have emotional friendships, like men and women who are celibate might) will be counterproductive given current societal beliefs as a whole.

  • It’s going to be VERY amusing to read the comments that I am absolutely sure will make their appearance here. It is as predictable as the latest Trumpytweet, lacking everything but the truth, a mirror, and a sense of irony. Staunch antigay Catholic people will show up, most likely lamenting the alleged infiltration of this church by alleged homosexuals who, being evil as all homosexuals are, are destroying god’s vicarage on earth, causing it to sink into a swamp of corruption.

    Do I have the story right? Anything left out? Oh, yes. the truth. And The part where god cares about the church, so much so that the revelations just keep coming, the internal contradictions as obvious and painful as a train wreck.

    This isn’t a morality tale about the dangers of homosexuality, but a tale about corruption — not from without, but within. It’s the corruption of lies, fear, shame, hatred, and projection, the corruption of the closet, which twists, perverts, and destroys everything it touches. It’s the corruption of telling people that the finest part of themselves represents intrinsic, moral evil, while at the same time telling them that they are indeed born that way– intrinsically, morally disordered, with a tendency towards grave evil.

    Simple psychology and sociology: you tell people that, they believe it, and if they really hate themselves, they live it.

    You don’t become a priest by signing up with the holy recruiter at the mall. You must have a vocation–literally a calling from god. Without it, you cannot be a priest. The church has its methods to determine that a vocation is real. Either god is calling morally, deeply corrupt men to the priesthood, or the church’s guarantees are meaningless. I’d go with option 2 for 50¢, Alex.

    Whatever good the church may do, it also has a great legacy of evil. It’s love of ostentation, power, and wealth while children starve. Its history of burning those unfortunate enough to be labelled heretic, protestant, or witch while declaiming that god is love. Its centuries-old child molestation scandals, with pedophiles being shielded and protected. 1900 years of official antiSemitism, leading to the zaniness of a man with a funny mustache.

    Homosexually inclined men– they’re not gay and proud, but twisted with the self hatred inculcated in them by the church– join the church not to find other such men, but to escape their sexuality altogether, the pressures of society and family, a self-proclaimed prison where they will be safe– from themselves. The men who are pedophilia oriented do the same thing, for the same reasons.

    I’m certain that most priests, gay or straight, are good people, at peace with themselves and the celibacy requirements. But we’re not talking about them, but of men who loathe themselves, who have never dealt with their sexuality, except to try to repress it. It’s called coming out, and if you joined the church to escape yourself, you haven’t done it.

    It’s bad enough, the damage these men do to themselves, the church, and their direct victims. But their indirect victims also suffer: the gay men who don’t hate themselves, who aren’t twisted and perverted by self loathing and shame, who don’t act out their frustrated sexuality on underage boys, or apparently like Cardinal O’Brien, hitting on other priests–and he is by far from being the only one. And the priests who are good men, who aren’t perverts.

    Gay men are damaged another way– blamed for the damage these self loathing closet cases do, blamed for the child molestation that horrifies us just as much as it does anyone else. And almost worse? Lumped in the same category as these perverts. “Oh, they’re homosexuals. That’s how they all are.”

    No. We’re not. That’s just another story your telling yourselves to justify what you have done to us for centuries. We have the evil hypocrisy of the cardinal, railing against the sinfulness of happy, out gay men, while conducting his personal sex crusade from deep within the vestry. We have Roger Mahoney, incensed that people blame him for decades of abuse coverup in Los Angeles, as if he were personally responsible. He’s the victim, or so he says. We have that Canadian archbishop, arrested and imprisoned for child porn, while wailing about marriage equality in Canada. We have the Belgian archbishop who saw nothing wrong, as he so charmingly put it, with “taking comfort with children.”

    In this case, his own nephews. And those are the ones we know about.

    It isn’t homosexuality that has corrupted your church, but your church that has corrupted homosexual men, turning them in to homosexual-hating-homosexuals. Child molesters find a safe haven there, both because of access to children, and people like Mahoney, who believe that a scandal in the church is of greater importance that the destruction of the innocence of children.

    It isn’t homosexuality that has corrupted your church. It’s your church that has corrupted itself.

  • I respect his efforts but it is an uphill battle given Catholic doctrine does treat gays and lesbians (the transsexuals part is more complicated) as not equal to heterosexuals in a certain core respect. There is room here to be supportive in various ways. But, there still is a basic disconnect and as long as it is there, it is going to cause problems — when a person is not truly equal, mistreatment is sadly predictable.

    ETA: Just to remind, put aside the misunderstandings about Mary Magdalene (that is, the assumption she was a prostitute), hanging out with sinners and being kind/supportive was sort of Jesus’ thing, including those deemed sexually impure.

  • You forgot to mention those two potent words in the Catechism, “objectively disordered.”

    You can see in the interview that Martin (and his pal Francis, quite honestly) would REALLY like to erase those two key words forever from the Catechism. But like Merritt said, their strategy du-jour is “Baby-Steps.” Gotta use the back door.

    Those guys seriously want to do things **your** way, Ben. Sure, they want to see more love and “grace”, but they also want Catholics to ditch their own Catholic Bible and their own Catechism — and ultimately ditch their own Christ — on this topic. This is a bad situation brewing.

  • For all I know, maybe they ARE “better humans than me”, Ben. I have no way (and no time) to confirm or disconfirm that possibility. Certainly they are dedicated to their callings.

    All I know for certain, (based on multiple RNS articles about Martin’s position, Martin’s book, and Martin’s pal Pope Francis), is that the two of them are flat-out doing a very corrosive, very damaging “Baby-Steps” strategy to get Catholics to abandon their own Catholic Bible & Catholic Catechism on this issue.

    It’s like eating those funny-looking Death Cap mushrooms. Soft and Delicious and Yummy, until your liver goes straight to Hell.

  • Fr. Martin is doing something that needs to be done – laying the ground work for a change in understanding about love, relationships, sex, marriage. We will come to an understanding that what is important here is the seeking for love, companionship, committed relationships and that sexual expression within such a relationship is a natural as breathing. Nature made us not just to procreate, but also to seek love.

  • What James Martin spouts here is nonsense, I have spent the last couple of years documenting the wildly gay-affirmative Catholic ministries and outreaches present in almost every major US Archdiocese. These ministries are all largely controlled by gay activists and or “married” or coupled homosexuals. Since Martin mentions, Out At St. Paul, lets go there: this group has promoted such noble ideas as “Queer Saints,” their annual “Pride Mass,” and recently a “Vogue Class” in honor of NY Pride Week. Their video series “Owning Our Faith,” has openly advocated for radical dissent from the most basic Catholic teachings with regards to homosexuality.
    Read more here:
    http://josephsciambra.com/archdiocese-of-new-york-parish-plans-gay-pride-mass-at-stonewall
    http://josephsciambra.com/archdiocese-of-new-york-parish-to-offer-gay-pride-week-vogue-dance-class

  • I completely agree. Our understanding of what God wants ABSOLUTELY changes over time, generally toward the direction of increased understanding. Every breakthrough in psychology, medicine, sociology, etc. is a gift from God, and furthers our understanding of relationships, love, harmony, beauty and all sorts of other wonderful things. The natural result of these breakthroughs has proven, over time, to be increased understanding and acceptance of those who are different.

  • And a loony Protestant comes out. So am I in sin according to your prosperity gospel faux Evangelical Church because I am a straight single woman in my 30s without children? Should I just marry the first guy I meet and start breeding?

    And no being an unmarried celibate LGBT person is not a sin even under the strictest definition of what any church considers sin. It is sad that Evangelicals want to force gay people into straight marriages because of such evil and warped beliefs about marriage, child-bearing, etc.

  • They are. I’ll save you the trouble of confirming it.
    As for the death cap mushrooms? It’s exactly how I seen conservative antigay religion.

  • Apparently not. I know floyd. you don’t.
    Have a nice day, or mind your own business, whichever you prefer.

  • And I’m sure God’s apology to Sodom and Gomorrah will be forthcoming. Aberrant sex is not love. Encouraging someone to continue practicing sodomy is exactly the opposite of love.

  • Yes, those two words are “offensive”, IF you are gay or pro-gay.

    But how so? NOT because those words demean any given person — they seriously don’t — but because they automatically de-legitimatize ANY gay marriage or gay dating relationship. Period.

    In fact, those two words de-legitimatize the choice to adopt a gay-self-identity. Those two words always say, “The same-sex temptations & ‘feelings’ don’t define who you are; those gay temptations are your FOES not your friends; so always Fight Back, seek God, and do NOT self-identify as gay.”

  • Sodomy is “offensive” to God. Who are YOU that the world should take heed not to offend?

  • Do you believe that gay people are “diseased” and that they can be “cured” and turned straight?

  • That’s very nice that some day the Roman church will not demonize us as human beings. However, will they honor and bless our marriage and families because love is love,. THAT is the question to answer.

  • Still selling the same crap you’ve always sold, I see.

    The horror! the horror of it All!!!

    Almost as horrible as whoring after antigay dollars.

  • As is anti gay theology.

    The sodom story has no more to do with homosexuality than it does with the price of a pillar of salt.

  • So you claim, hating gay people and hiding behind your religion to do it is of course NOT offensive to god.

    Same as you good Christians did for slavery, witch burning, heretic torturing, and hiding the kiddy diddlers.

  • I believe that gay people are exactly like straight people. “Objectively Disordered.”
    That’s all of us. The only difference is what disorders we’re into. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” (Rom. 3:23) We all need Christ.

    Do I believe that gays can be healed? Yes. I’ve listened to both gays and ex-gays talk about their lives, and both life stories are very real.

    But the ex-gays, when they talk about what Jesus did for them, THAT stuff is astonishing. It’s 10000 percent Healing Power. It will take your breath away. Sometimes it go slow, sometimes it go fast, but always it’s an overwhelming, mind-blasting, life-altering Power.

    Nothing, NOTHING, stops Jesus. I’ve seen it. You better watch out. He will blast your life so hard with His impossible Power, you will NEVER be the same again, kag1982. Do you want that to happen to you?

  • I fully understand this approach to welcome them back into the church the lost sheep. But this approach will damage my soul and eternity! It’s strange he wouldn’t mentioned the Catholic group Courage! Maybe he does in the book.

    Being a person who struggles with Same Sex Attraction, I don’t think this approach is good and healthy. I’ve struggling with this my whole life to better understand my sexuality and my catholic faith. Growing up I was feeling rejected from family and my faith, and knowing the Darkness within the LGBT community I had no where to turn except to Jesus Christ. There is when I began to better healing of the wounds within my heart that lead me to Same Sex Attraction!!! This healing journey will be the rest of my life, but through Jesus Christ love and graces I am given the strength to Carry My Cross and follow Jesus Christ. I don’t feel anymore rejected by the catholic church, but there needs a Better support group to help with the journey of healing and living a celibate life.

    People can be part of the church if they are genuinely trying to practice a celibate life and try to live holy. Not a life of sin.

  • So you do believe in conversion therapy. I don’t. In fact, I think that conversion therapy is harmful quackery. I think that being a gay person is just a variation in the gene pool like having red hair and freckles or being left handed. I don’t think that it is a “disorder.” It is just the way that some people are.

    I do think that it is harmful to pretend that people can be changed or to force them to marry people of the opposite sex. I don’t think that it is fair for the gay person or for the person’s potential spouse to pretend that they can somehow be “converted.”

  • A significant percentage of Catholic priests are gay, a far larger number than in the population as a whole. No wonder the Vatican is bemused about how to deal with this issue. It’s well nigh impossible to welcome and condemn someone’s behaviour at the same time.

  • The way I read Floyd’s comment was that he believes that Jesus can heal us from any sinful behaviour. Whereas, “conversion therapy” is something else, not necessarily apart from Jesus, but something that involves people with all their own issues and problems.

    I’ll take your word for it that conversion therapy is harmful. But being healed by Jesus is something that I’ve personally experienced and it comes in all kinds of different shapes, ways and forms.

  • The questions are mostly meaningless. Even where they aren’t, the answers are evasive. Notice how, when he is asked about the fact that sodomy and other same-sex sex acts are SINFUL, Martin completely changes the subject. The book itself never mentions that sex acts are gravely sinful, except sex acts that are apt for the generation of life, between husband and wife.

    This is Martin’s primary trick: He always emphasizes that “being gay” is not sinful. That is correct, if what is meant is “same-sex attracted.” But always, within about a minute, he is throwing around the word “gay” when he is obviously referring to men in same-sex mowwidges, or other sex-based relationships.

    Martin is engaged in propaganda, not pastoral activity. He is doing all he can to make people comfortable with their sins, and comfortable condoning other people’s sins.

  • If you are a homosexual hating homosexual. You can do six impossible things before breakfast.

  • So you are still homosexual. You are just able to repress it. Except that you are still “struggling.” So you are not able to do even that much.

    As for the “darkness” in the gay community: I suspect you found what you were looking for. People usually do.

    Absolutely your choice, of course. It’s just too sad.

  • So let’s discuss your book, Swallowed by Satan, where in you claim that looking a playboy makes men gay. Does that even make sense? No it doesn’t. But it does make dollars for you, as you enter into a religious right fever dream of what the mythical gay lifestyle looks like.

    Dude, you need therapy.

  • I heard of him. As I said, he is a very sad and repressed individual in the same category as Michael Voris. For someone who was “cured” of being gay, he certainly spends lots of time obsessing about homosexuality. It makes one wonder.

  • Joseph, you are a voice crying out in the wilderness and I think of you so often and how ironic your situation is, in that you are like St. Paul. The Jews were furious with him and the Christians didn’t trust him. You are now vilified by most ACTIVELY gay people and distained by those Catholics who want to go down the road of Father Martin and tear away at church teaching. He is quite cunning in his speech for those who are not catechized but not to the ear of one living in a state of grace with a prayer life.
    . He NEVER addresses the issue of the call to repentance and living a chaste life. He sees nothing to repent for.The gay community goes bizerk when chasteness is mentioned as if they are somehow a special group that should never have these bounds placed by God upon them. They ‘sacramentalize’ and “sanctify” their condition. Good Catholics should have deep compassion for the same sex attraction and it’s trials but they should never, in false compassion, endorse or comply in any way, the living out of impurity. I lived as a promiscuous woman in the music business for some years and when I felt the call to sit in the back of empty churches and weep for my sins, or go to Mass in the early days of my returning to Christ, I knew that I could not approach the altar to receive the Body and Blood of Our Lord until I made changes to my living conditions and confessed my sins to a priest.. All Catholics are called to abstinence if they are outside the vocation of married love. And even married couples abstain in order to space their children. But the gay community wants acceptance for unfettered sexual activity, when they want it, how they want it and who they want it with. This seems to make gay people rend their garments in rage.
    Father Martin is attempting to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes to attempt to normalize acts that can never be condoned. He and the gay community attempt to place “gay love” to an exalted status that is in their eyes so pleasing to God. As much as they pump out this narrative , it can never be so. Joseph, I ask you a sincere question as you have lived this life and have known so many gay men. Is it your sense that these men do know that , even though they have the attraction, that it is objectively wrong? If the answer is ‘yes’ then how difficult will it be for them all when the community and the church keep telling them otherwise. You are in my prayers this night. God bless and keep you as you ‘strive to enter through the narrow gate.” as we all must strive.

  • Perhaps you should read Martin’s book–he says that people with same-sex attraction should be treated with compassion, sensitivity, and respect.

    None of which is being shown by you to Joseph Sciambra.

  • Joseph sciambra is what is known as a homosexual hating homosexual. He works actively against the civil rights of gay people, doing what so many of these exgay scam artists do: selling their life story to gullible heterosexual conservatives and evangelicals, and people who have learned the same self loathing he did.

    He apparently made a lot of bad choices regarding sex, drugs, and for all I know, rock n roll when he was a young man. He takes no responsibility for it. He slanders and reviles gay people everywhere FOR A LIVING be use HE MADE A LOT OF BAD CHOICES. OR maybe he does it for free. I really don’t care.

    just because he has issues and a problem life, doesn’t mean that all gay people or even many gay people do. He talks about demons, vampires, and neoNazi sex clubs as of these were actually a thing. They might be. In a world where people claiming moral values vote for an adulterous thrice married Buffoon and con artist who things sexual assault is just peachy, anything is possible,

    Sensitivity? Not called for. Compassion: absolutely, but it only goes so far. respect? If he wants respect, Maybe he should act respectably.

  • Keep proving my point. Comboxes would be so much more worthwhile if people stopped using them for personal attack.

    It’s way easier to lash out personally than it is to actually engage in civil discussion in areas of disagreement. If you disagree with his claim that Martin is offering “nonsense,” then address the claim directly instead of shooting the messenger.

  • James Martin does not like the Catholic Church. He is one of the few, all be it highly placed, within the Church that are trying to fundamentally change it. And to the degree that they are willing to challenge the creator of the Church, God as in Jesus Christ. The Gospel, the catechism. the Magistarium are all in need of change according to them. He appears to have been captivated by the ‘progressive’s’ of our time and sees nothing wrong with declaring sin as no sin. Pray for him, but do not follow him!

  • Putting aside Mr. Stafford’s unfamiliarity with your and floydlee’s long standing cudgel match, it’s hard to mind one’s own business, when everybody’s business is everybody’s business in this forum (said with a sad wistful smile). I elect to not offer any further comment than this, I’m all for compassion and sensitivity to others of whatever standing, while at the same time firm in my belief in what scripture teaches on the subject as I understand it, as opposed to a catechism. I’m always less concerned about what happens outside the church than what happens within the church, which I would argue should be the expression of sympathy and compassion, with an unyielding firmness with respect to practice as believers. I don’t think that I can go as far as Father Martin.

  • I seriously doubt that God changes His mind about what He has ordained in the universe. Any reference to God changing His mind is largely confined in the bible to the Old Testament, and generally relates to some punishment that He has elected not to inflict based on the repentance of His people.

  • I would agree that living life as a celibate single LGBT person does not constitute a sinful way of life on its own.

  • Does one who has renounced their homosexuality either by a change in practice, or point of view, automatically become a homosexual hating homosexual? Aren’t there other potential places along the path where any individual can rest between affirmation and self loathing and hatred?

  • Of course you hate Joseph Sciambra and anyone who appreciates his work. It’s no shock to us. Still, we wish you well.

  • LOL. Deacon Jim!! Why are you allowed to be in ministry again considering your hatred of gay people? I’m assuming that you were ordained by Drag Queen Ray; I know that your form of “ministry” wouldn’t fly in Chicago under Cupich.

  • Pumpkin, per your special Evangelical friends, it most definitely does. Perhaps we should ask Maria if her prosperity gospel Church thinks that priests and religious are in sin because they are celibate. She probably does. I bet if we discuss the pope she will shriek about how he is the whore of Babylon. This would include all popes, not just yucky liberals like Francis. Maria thinks that even Benedict is a heretic. This is what you get for lying in bed with the Evangelical crowd.

    The Evangelical prosperity Gospel is frankly a heresy. Catholics should work with honest Protestants of good will, not prosperity Gospel hucksters.

  • Objectively Disordered = the ultimate objective of sexuality is ordered towards the procreation of future progeny. Homosexuality, cannot fulfill this ultimate objective, since​ it goes against that which human sexuality was meant to do and what it was meant to be via the Creator.

    This is not mean that homosexuals suffer from some sort of disorder, only that the tenancy that the have is counter to what God has designed.

  • “Is it your sense that these men do know that , even though they have the attraction, that it is objectively wrong?.

    He is obviously not a person that knows much about it. All he knows are his very bad choices, his fantasies about the gay “lifestyle”, and the story he is selling to hyper conservative catholics and evangeicals. And they just lap it up.

    But then he is talking to someone like you with so many rather strange ideas about the gay community. Like this one: “But the gay community wants acceptance for unfettered sexual activity, when they want it, how they want it and who they want it with. This seems to make gay people rend their garments in rage.”

    No, honey, that is YOUR story about the gay community. Not about me or anyone anyone I know, or have known in 46 years of being out. And if I am rending my garments in “rage”– very nice biblical and theatrical comment there– it might be more because of all of the damage that people like scambra– not to mention the church of the kiddy diddlers– and you do to innocent people with the silly stories you tell yourselves about people you don’t know and know nothing about.

    I won’t even get into “unfettered”. That’s what tees you people off so much, because we’re no longer chained by the self hatred you so desperately wish for us. Not to mention, civil law.

    My rage is because of the toxic religion and (dare we call them) FAIRY stories you spew, leading demonstrably to beautiful gay kids killing themselves, or seeing no hope because an irresponsible, self destructive fecal bleater with issues tells them that his bad choices will be true in THEIR lives.

    His whole story about being swallowed by Satan! REally! If it got any more Freudian-slipping than that it would be even funnier than it is. Well, it does get pretty funny when he gets into the neo-nazi sex clubs, though that is not as good even as the story about how heterosexual porn turned him gay.

    That is not how this works. That’s not how any of this works.

    No matter how desperate some people are to believe it.

  • Funny what a terribly incompetent designer you god must be then.

    And after he finished badly designing gay people, he then went and badly designed a whole lot of mammals and birds who also mate and pair bond homosexually,

    But thanks for at least contradicting church teaching with a small dash of comment sense,

  • I’ve often wondered whether the fact that priests aren’t allowed to be married and as such live sexless lives could contribute to homosexuality?

  • Pulling the wool over our eyes is what the Fr Martins of this world are adept at. And, of course, they try to make others appear ignorant. Their tactics are well known but they are bound to fail.

  • I echo Joseph Sciambra. This article by Jennifer will more fully present Catholic teaching on human sexuality. Father Martin sadly avoids teaching the whole truth on human sexuality and ignores major issues regarding human identity and the purpose of human sexuality. I have tried to reach out to him as many others have. He seems to prefer gaining popularity and going with the tide instead of guiding people to the truth. It’s sad and I will continue to pray for him. http://www.catholic.org/news/national/story.php?id=75113

  • I have redone and updated a post I had written earlier this month. It explores the contrast between two books being released in June that cover issues related to human sexuality, same-sex attraction and our Catholic faith. One by popular writer and Jesuit priest, Father James Martin, SJ and one by Daniel Mattson. The book by Father Martin is titled “Building a Bridge” and the book by Daniel is “Why I Don’t Call Myself Gay”. https://easterpeople.me/2017/05/08/bridges/

  • Well said, Fred. We all have different urges or desires that demand satisfaction. Some of them are not crimes but are sinful. Gluttony, vanity or craving for porn, for instance. Prayerfully communication with Jesus and bowing down to worship God gives us the grace we need to overcome our faults and weaknesses. Yes, those who genuinely want to be part of the Church or, shall we say his unique family, can do so. I will pray for you.

  • No I’m NOT homosexual!!! I don’t label myself with words of this world; but of God’s words. I AM A CHILD OF GOD. that is my true identity. I am not surprising myself but fully restoring my broken sexual desire into the healing love of Jesus Christ and with His strength I carry my cross and follow Him. I know people don’t want to hear the truth. We need to live in truth, what sin is sin and who die without repenting are in dangerous of going to Hell.

    Don’t be sad for me but glad that I’ve seen the truth in Jesus Christ.

    We are born with this “gay desire” I don’t have problem saying that. the problem I have with this argument is we jump to conclusions that it’s from God than it should be okay. Which is totally wrong, we are all born broken, because of original sin. This is from the enemy not God.
    Also unrepentant sins from our ancestors cause curses to fall on five generation but God says blessings will be given to 1000 generations. Healing of the family tree is very important process of healing sins of personal and family sins.

  • On the contrary, the evidence, once freed from superstitious dogma, shows that LGBT throughout the ages have been the Gift from God that keeps on giving back. Most of the great art in the Vatican was created by men who were either gay or bisexual. A whole lot of what enriches the lives of the rest of us comes from the creative hearts and minds of LGBT. Studies show that gay men and lesbian women often have elevated levels of progesterone, the emotional bonding hormone. That’s why so many of them are very “people-oriented” in their career paths, benefiting others in their life work. A whole lot of very effective Roman Catholic clergy have been celibate gay men over the centuries, sometimes not so celibate and yet still very effective in giving comfort to others. The real evidence is that most LGBT give back far more to their communities than they ever receive in return, clearly making them and what makes them unique a genuine gift from God, not the silly curse you presuppose them to be.

  • The reason for that reality is simple. LGBT are naturally intuitive as a group. They are revered in some cultures as natural clergy or shamans. There are so many gay RC priests because the priesthood orders provide some shelter from homophobia and a chance to explore their natural spiritualism. The irony for Catholicism is that celibacy has no connection to their effectiveness as vessels of the divine, which is why intra-monastic gay “hanky-panky” never prevents them from doing their jobs.

  • The Sodom story is a ‘lot’ about homosexuality. Nothing to do with the price of salt.

  • Pope Francis has called same-sex marriage an “anthropological regression” and In Dec., Pope Francis issued another decree that men with “deeply rooted homosexual tendencies” couldn’t be priests which reaffirmed that “this inclination is objectively disordered.”
    Pope Francis said the teaching children “that everyone can choose their gender” is “the epoch of sin against God the Creator.”
    I don’t know who in the Vatican Martin “advises” but it isn’t the pope. Even Martin isn’t calling for legalizing equal human rights for the LGBTQ community.

  • He is a disturbed individual who is claiming to be “cured” of gayness, which isn’t possible.

  • I think that we need to be conscious of all that sacred scripture says about sin, the sinner and the followers of Jesus. The church must always, clearly and without fear call sin the name proper to it because human error or weakness should never be a compromise to God’s word. We shouldn’t be tempted by our weakness to bend God’s word to sound more friendly to us the sinners. Therefore the catechism of the Catholic Church must speak of the high standards of morality that God requires of us. If you read Romans chapter 12 you will realize that God’s standards of purity required of us are very high and St. Paul in that text ends with the statement that “do not be conquered by Evil, conquer evil with good. At the same time Jesus the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 and looks for the 1 lost sheep. The challenge here is, how is the good Shepherd of our time looking for the 1 lost sheep??? Some think modify church language, create more opportunities for the 1 sheep to enter in the flock and others think the church already has enough doors open for the lost sheep…. And the church shldnt risk sounding as if the lost sheep is not actually lost! The problem I see here is that if the lost sheep enters in the flock with an attitude of making the 99 appear lost then it becomes tricky for the Shepherd. We should as followers of Christ be careful in our role as good Shepherds to let the lost in for salvation without a endangering the soul of such a sheep and the souls of others as well. For instance what prevents those practicing homosexuality from going to confession??? Is it because of the poor attitude of the church towards them as claimed?? Okay if an administrator of a church institution is practicing homosexuality what does Fr. Martin recommend for the good Shepherd to do?? If I announced that as a lay leader I have married a 2nd woman and am the head of laity at my Parish, what does Fr. Martin recommend for pastoral care in my case as a good Shepherd?? Every time Jesus met a sinner, the sinner never went back sinful. Zaccheus was welcomed and thereafter Zaccheus never lived as before, the adulterous woman never lived as before. Jesus welcomes, the church welcomes all of us sinners but I haven’t got it why those practicing homosexuality have become a special group of those at fault with sacred scripture…..??? Is it that those practicing homosexuality aren’t in sin in sofar as they think or is it that the church has denied them going to confession?? Or they want the church to rewrite sacred scripture and call it acceptable?? What exactly is the problem?? The church never locks any sinner out in sofar as I know, but why homosexuality has become a special type of error in the church is what I don’t get. Fr. Martin help me understand your line of argument when you say the church treats homosexuals as lepers.

  • The only “snake oil” here is the venom dripping from your false words and attacks.

  • Snake oil is the slanders that he has lodged against the gay community as well as his support for conversion therapy, which is harmful quackery discredited by mainstream psychologists and banned in CA, NJ, and IL for minors.

  • You can argue with your Maker, but you know you just can’t win.

    Good luck and Godspeed.

  • No. He doesn’t “attack”. Far from it. What’s “personal” is his compassion for others.

  • You’re assuming that all gay people are promiscuous and/or hedonistic, in their lifesyles. That is wrong. I would never pressume that any straight person is a whore. So please don’t cast those aspersions on gay people.

  • Romans 1:26-27, 32 KJV

    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    God calls homosexuality sin, plain and simple. A judgement is placed on those who commit such sins and those who accept such sin as well.

  • Romans 1:26-27, 32 KJV

    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    God calls homosexuality sin, plain and simple. A judgement is placed on those who commit such sins and those who accept such sin as well.

  • What is personal is his unfair smears of the gay community and his insistence that gay people can be “cured”? It isn’t compassionate to push conversion therapy, which is harmful quackery. It has harmed many gay people, led to teen suicides, and encouraged parents to cut off contact with their gay children.

  • Romans 1:26-27, 32 KJV

    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    God calls homosexuality sin, plain and simple. A judgement is placed on those who commit such sins and those who accept such sin as well.

  • It seems, everytime I post a comment, it gets deleted. Well, truth is truth and you all must face it one day. Read Romans 1:26-27, 32 if you want to hear such truth. May God have mercy on you.

  • You seem to know all the standard gay activist talking points. So, please explain from the Bible how *God* made you gay?

  • Very fine all the comments right here by Joseph, Raphael and Mal and others,,,, but no where to be found any comment about the Holy Book, that states clearly the Law of the Lord. Never a fan of Benedict, and for sure will never endorse the current squatter of the Vatican? This vile socialist creature will turn the church into a global warming army, just for starters. Where are all these people and the so called Pope, taking in consideration the teachings of the Holy Book. The way I see it, this high priest of his own beliefs will never come out and stand firm acknowledging Our Bible, to the world. Talk is cheap, fancy words to hide the truth of their agenda, but like me there are others too, watching what he is doing. This is only one side why the Catholic Church is losing so many folks. The folks at the top are lying to Us. Thank You.

  • Actually, I am straight. But God made some people gay just like he made people with red hair and who are left handed. These are genetic variations that are harmless. There is nothing in the Bible about why God created gingers, so I’m not sure why you would expect something about why God created gays.

  • So all “genetic variations” are attributable to *God* Himself?

    Fascinating.

  • So you don’t think that God has a role in creation? That is quite shocking for a Catholic deacon.

  • Fred’s first three sentences there, are extremely powerful. They are totally alive with the crackling electrical power of 1 Cor. 10:13 running all through them.

    The gay activists really have no defense, and no escape, against this kind of thing. The Gay Religion is losing members as we speak.

    (If America’s churches weren’t so weak and wrecked and divided, even greater results would be seen.)

    But, even in our current pitiful divided state, SSA-afflicted people are finding salvation, power, deliverance, healing, and a NEW self-identity (and it’s not gay!) in Christ. Consider well!

  • It’s not possible for YOU. ‘Cause you WANT to be gay.

    But if you’ll just stop worshipping that corrosive gay-self-identity already, and instead get serious about hooking yourself up with Jesus Christ, THEN you’ll see some exciting possibilities that you ain’t never seen before in your entire life.

    Better to struggle as a free person than to live a defeated life in slavery.

  • What’s God’s role? Is He *directly* responsible for *all* genetic variations, and are *all* genetic variations to be considered “gifts” and “good” in themselves???

    Honest people answer “no” to those questions. Honest people realize that, even *when* something may have a genetic basis, that something must be evaluated as “good” or “bad” based on *other* criteria besides genetic correlation.

    How horrible it would be to go to someone with genetically related blindness or deafness, or with limb loss, and say “Congratulations! God *wants* you to be this way because He *made* you that way! It’s genetic–it’s God’s *gift* to you!”

    Not to mention the fact that there is *zero* evidence of genetic *causality* for homosexuality–zero. At most, there is a possibility that genetics plays a role in *correlation*–but zero evidence that it is attributable as *cause*.

    So, no, God doesn’t “make people that way.” The Church teaches instead that God gives human nature–*all* of us–the inclination to other-sex attraction. We’re “born that way.” No exceptions. It’s part of human nature. Even so, those who experience same-sex attraction have to deal with the fact that their experience runs counter to the God-given sexual inclination that we all share by virtue of being human. That is the meaning of “disorder”–God “ordered” human nature toward other-sex attraction. Anything else is not ordered in accord with both God’s Will and His Creative Action each time He brings a human person into existence.

  • Firstly, my name isn’t ‘honey’ and I see your need to tear down is rooted in the fact that you in truth have no argument. This is what lefties and progressives do to shout down their opponents. You and others commenting have such disdain and loathing for Joseph Sciamboro because he gives a way out into a chaste life but you are not buying it because you want to do your will not God’s. Me think thou protesteth too much Ben. It is a trial to have same sex attraction, but it is a trial that can be won with sincerity, good will and God’s grace. Hey, we ALL have to practice chastity, not just you who are ssa. It is for our sanctity and if we remain docile to God’s laws we remain in peace.

  • You make a good point Brent. But I would be naïve to deny the realities of the gay lifestyle in general where now diseases are spreading again like wildfire through the gay community due to their behaviors. If there was so much monogamy this would not be happening. And monogamy does not make a perversion right before God.

  • You’re straight? Really? Ok. Then honestly, imo, you’ve got NO excuses for the way you been talking.

    I’m sorry, but you had me convinced that not only were you gay, but that you **wanted** to live your life that way, like an activist. Goodness!

    And then you want to run around saying things like “God makes people gay”? Which is not only unbiblical, but turns God into a mere errand boy for the Gay Goliath? Not a pretty picture, nope.

    We shall have to re-start this conversation, it seems!

  • By the way, the promiscuity thing IS statistically true for the gay men (although not for lesbians).

    The gay activists don’t like talking about the issue, however. A tad embarrassing, it seems.

  • Umm, Edward is not a Pumpkin.

    Now it’s okay to call ME a Pumpkin, (or nearly any other name), because I’m a theological wild child anyway and I don’t mind getting into 3-alarm fights at the ecclesiastical beer joints.

    But Edward, he’s a genuine Christian respectful example of how to dialogue with people of all kinds. He’s a stand-up guy who keeps it clean. So don’t call him a Pumpkin.

  • Job 38:1f Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind: …
    “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.” No doubt God ordered the universe, but our comprehension of it has to change as we learn more. Likewise our conclusions about what God intends change too as we learn more. From our perspective it seems as if God changes God’s mind. Moreover, God warns Job that his assumptions about the world and how it is supposed to work get in the way of a more complete understanding. Cultural and personal bias blinds us or distorts our understanding of God’s will for us. When you get right down to it, we live by faith in a God that is good. That about all we can be certain of.

  • Actually, I am not gay and I don’t want to be gay. Last I checked I am a straight woman. I do support my gay brothers and sisters however and think that they shouldn’t be told that they should just “turn” straight and shouldn’t be bullied. I have gay acquaintances who were bullied as children in Catholic schools during the 1990s and who are estranged from their families. This happens because of the odious idea that they can somehow just “change” and become straight when this isn’t possible, an idea advanced by the above snake oil salesman.

  • Actually, there is lots of evidence that there is a genetic component to being gay or straight. This is from both evolutionary biology and from other studies. This is why conversion therapy doesn’t work and why it is considered quackery and is outlawed for minors in specific states like IL.

    And being gay is a neutral variation. Someone who is gay can lead a full life and isn’t disabled. It is like having red hair or being left-handed. The only people who think that being gay is a burden are those who have issues with sex in general and cannot fathom two consenting adults can love each other. It is these people who need therapy, not happily adjusted gay people.

  • I support my gay brothers and sisters who have been through lots of grief. Many people in the US now support civil marriage for gay people. We’ve had it in the US for almost two years and the country is still standing.

  • I find it hilarious that conservative Catholics have such a need for validations from Evangelical loons like the OP who think that all Catholics, including you, are heretics rather than real Christians. Just because you have similar repressed attitudes toward sex and gender equality doesn’t mean that they think you are “real Christians.”

  • “Lots of evidence”?? I guess the American Psychological Association has it wrong then. They say:

    “There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”
    http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation.aspx

  • “Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”

    This is why conversion therapy and other “efforts” to turn gay people straight are considered quackery.

  • As explained above, you did have me convinced that you were not only gay but worshipping it too. Thanks for the correction; I now know you are straight.

    But you’re not doing “your gay brothers and sisters” any favors here. You’re telling them “Once Gay Always Gay”. Telling them that their situation is HOPELESS, even if they want to get out of the gay slavery and live in freedom and healing and renewal. Telling them that they’re TRAPPED for life, and that gay-self-identity is the cage they will stay locked in forever. You’re hurting them, not helping them.

    Bullying happens to us all during the school years. It’s one of the things God has to heal both straights and gays from. Oppose bullying. But that doesn’t change the fact that many people want to get OUT of the gay slavery, no matter how they got into it. Many have escaped already. Help them escape, Kag1982.

  • You couldn’t possibly be more wrong about me if you entered the “I am Wrong Sweeptstakes” and won the top three prizes.

    The issue is not scambra not wanting to be gay. That’s very simple. No gay sex, love, romance, books, movies friends. No Jesus intervention is required. But of course, then he doesn’t sell any books , can’t attack other gay people with lies and slander in order to work on his own issues, and can’t feed his audience his breathless stories– fiction and nonsense to feed their own narratives– of his escape from demons, vampires, neo Nazis, playboy, and porn.

    I have no “same sex attaraction.” I am a gay man. That’s another story you people have. Do heterosexuals have “an opposite sex attraction”? No, it’s who they are. It’s not a “struggle” unless you make it one. It’s not about doing “my will”. I don’t buy into your whole religious story, certainly not about gay people and what god allegedly wants. Plenty of Christians disagree.

    There are two issues here which you are conflating and which Martin is trying to separate. One is your religious prohibition of homosexuality. Great. Have at it. I don’t care, though I think it is stupid, hypocritical, destructive, and an abuse and misuse of scripture. As Fr. Martin points out, far stronger prohibitions on all sorts of things are routinely ignored, as long as it has to do with heterosexuals.

    The issue is what is done with the belief, and that is my issue with you, with the church, and with people like scambra, and with the entire anti-ex-anti-gay industry, which hides behind its religious beliefs as a justification for centuries of jails, murders, beatings, suicides, vilification for social ills we have nothing to do with, torture, destroyed families lives, careers, and so forth. It is an ancient, vicious, and durable prejudice that we are talking about, which scambra feeds into with a nice selection of utter and vicious nonsense.

    It also happens to be father martin’s issue.

    Deal with it.

  • False. “Gay” is the ideological construct–a label people choose to give themselves because they experience attraction to the same sex. “Gay” pretends to be about a “who” when the *experience* is a *what*.

    It’s just as easy to set aside the ideological identity-label “gay” as it is to *embrace* the label. A person either *chooses* the label, or doesn’t.

    *Reparative* therapy–not “conversion” therapy–is the term that describes efforts to help people manage the *experience* of same-sex attraction without having to embrace the false *ideology* of “orientation.” It’s not “quackery” and it’s not about “turning gay people straight” precisely *because* the focus is on the person and not on the false ideology of “orientation.”

  • Disease is spreading, period. Where are you getting your stats? The info you’re pushing sounds like 80’s-90’s diatribe. ‘And monogamy does not make a perversion right before God’. What do you know about perversion, sister? Is Christ your saviour? If he is, you should know that it is your Holy Father’s prerogative to determine who is ‘RIGHT AND JUST’. Do not judge lightly. Second Testament was written for exactly that reason. Too many people, too quick to speak in God’s name. So loosen up, honey. It will all pan out in the end. No life is lived in vain. Yours or mine. 😇😇😇

  • “Well, truth is truth and you all must face it one day.”

    Correction: Well, truth TRUTH is Truly Repellent and Unsupportable Theological Hogwash, and you all must face it one day.

    Fortunately, I faced it a long time ago. What a relief.

  • We are all in need of God’s grace and His mercy. We are all capable of falling and in need of repentance for our sins. The comments I make are focused on Father Martin’s point of view as though those who are actively having sex within the gay community have no need to have remorse. This is directly contradictory to Catholic teachings and he is leading many astray and potentially into the eternal loss of their souls. Heterosexuals who are having relations outside of marriage also must come to ask for forgiveness, but the culture of death today that is ruled by the father of lies tells us that we have no sin. Christ says…through the priest in Confession “your sins are forgiven.” This is AFTER we have admitted them.

  • People who have personal relationship with Christ need no Catholic ‘confession’. And i think you missed my point. Who are we to declare ‘SIN’? We all have different beliefs. Catholics also believe that children who are not baptised either go to hell, or remain in pergatory. They also believe in ‘original sin’. Sounds like a lot of dogma and not enough reasoning. If we are all born of ‘original sin’, then by default, we are hellbound. That doesn’t sound very God-like. By that reasoning, we were created simply to be punished. I don’t believe that my God created me simply to play games.

  • It’s also true for ‘the straight men’. And ‘the straight women’. Promiscuity is not an inherently ‘gay trait’. Although, by your statement, you seem to believe that it is…..??

  • Just curious – why do you have a penchant for calling your rhetorical opponents “honey” and “pumpkin?” Is it because “opposites attract?”

  • I would not believe ANYTHING James Martin says or read ANYTHING he recommends.

  • The problem with James Martin’s assertions here is that they lack Scripture that is relevant to the issue he presents. If he had quoted Romans 2:18-32, he would have made a better tie-in to God’s UNCHANGELABLE Moral Law as St. Pope John Paul II and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI clearly upheld. It is not God who needs change, but mankind who needs to reject sin and repent. Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19) was a lesson of God’s wrath against the sins of the flesh, namely homosexuality and perverse sexual behavior. Blackstone Films has done a wonderful job incorporating dialogue between the Church and those who are afflicted with same sex attraction. I encourage all to share it. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=blackstone+films+the+third+way+catholic&view=detail&mid=0B4F7A7C6B5843EC3CCE0B4F7A7C6B5843EC3CCE&FORM=VIRE

  • Answers to the questions, although I understand they were directed at Ben:
    1. Yes.
    2, I suppose there is, but it would seem the grey area there is incredibly small. To be an LGBT person and celibate deliberately is an incredibly stupid and futile gesture.

  • Yes and no. Presence of same sex exclusive cultures do not make people gay. Contrary to Dr. Ben Carson, prison does not make people gay. More likely, gay people are attracted to the idea of becoming a priest, nun, or monk because the same sex culture is more appealing to them than civilian culture in which people are pressured to get heterosexually married. Become a priest, nun, or monk, and that ceases.

  • I’m thinking along the lines of a contributing factor. There are kids that get sexually molested and become gay as a result. So imagine a boy that gets molested by a priest regularly. He grows up with that abuse then does it to others and a cycle results.

  • The suicide rate for gay people is just as high in areligious and gay affirming societies like Denmark and the Netherlands. I believe both counties legalized gay marriage in the 1980s. Your rage is misplaced.

  • Baptism opens heaven from original sin. I will make this comment for the last time as I see that you are full of negative emotion and lack reason…I am focusing in on Father Martin’s words because HE CLAIMS TO BE A CATHOLIC and yet he teaches error in opposition to her teachings. Satan is always attempting to devour our interior peace. Brent I wish you Christ’s peace, I am not your enemy.

  • all kag is, is a pagan who ignores the fact that all she does is snottily attack everyone who disagrees.

  • You’re right. You’re not my enemy. But a religion that puts innocent babies at the mercy of ‘baptism’ is. Say that baby doesn’t have parents that believe in baptism. Therein lies the fault of ‘catholisism’…. Peace be with you as well…

  • So you are a homosexual. you just are not able to repress it, like a serial killer is not able to repress his desire to kill. you don’t even struggle. Denying the darkness in the gay comunity, huh? You are suppressing. Absolutely your choice its just too sad.

  • No. Gay is an orientation just like straight. It is not ideological construct. People are just gay they cannot change that.

    And conversion therapy is evil. It is illegal in IL for minors because of the harm it does to people. Frankly, a deacon or priest who counsels such an evil therapy should not be in ministry. I would report any such person to the Chicago archdiocese; such therapies can lead to suicide among gay teens. You are harming people, not helping, through ideology and ignorance. You can obviously encourage people to remain celibate like the Spiritual Friendship movement does but you cannot counsel that they can change orientation without much harm to them. A gay man or woman cannot suddenly be turned straight. And it is really harmful for a gay person to marry a straight person. That harms not just the gay person but also the innocent spouse.

  • Gay people do not need our pity and they are not enslaved. They need the space to love as they wish to love.

  • The tone, tenor, and content of your postings convey your condescension quite forcefully – the resort to contemptuous salutations just reveals the obsessive/compulsive character of your scorn.

    By the way, you’re half right and half wrong about the “Prosperity Gospel” – it *is* a heresy…but it’s *not* “evangelical.”

  • I have contempt for those who hate on people they don’t know for no reason. This includes gays. Just leave them alone. It is weird or psycologically deranged mock those who chose to hate on others. Don’t hate on others if you do not to receive hate.

    As for the Prosperity Gospel, it is really prominent in American Evanglicalism which makes the whole movement a heresy. A movement that prays to Jesus to help the win the lottery is more out of line with good than mainline liberal Episopalians, don’t you think?

  • I hold no brief with the “prosperity Gospel,” in fact I find it appalling. Among my own circle of evangelical Christians, the case is largely as I affirmed; celibate, single LBGT’s who identify as Christians are in that respect at least walking obediently in their faith.

  • “Hatred,” like beauty, is not objectively measurable, but is very much in the eye of the beholder.

    The Prosperity Gospel is “…really prominent in evangelicalism…”? No it’s not. . You are apparently (perhaps understandably) unaware of the fact that there are reams of evangelical material identifying the “Prosperity Gospel” as a heresy, and warning people against it. The PG preachers call *themselves* “evangelical,” but so what? Heretics always claim they’re preaching the “true gospel.”

  • So how long have you been in the closet?

    Ted Haggard Rule. The more virulently anti-gay the Christian person is in public, the more likely they are self-loathing closeted gays.

  • There is nothing to appreciate in his work. Its garbage.

    “Not only was Sciambra a member of a gay witch sex cult, but his girlfriend (that’s right, he had a girlfriend at one point) was part of a community of witches, who introduce him to Church of Satan founder Anton LaVey.

    Eventually, Sciambra joined a Neo-Nazi organization in Idaho, which he explained was a natural fit since he “had already been well trained by the equally vicious haters in the perpetually malevolent gay community.


    Sciambra recalls how he began to idolize and fantasize about Adolf Hitler, who he viewed as the “ultimate male” and “a new messiah, superman reborn.” But Hitler wasn’t enough for him and he began to pursue “the darker side of the occult.”

    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/swallowed-by-satan-on-becoming-a-gay-nazi-porn-star-witch/

    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/people/joseph-sciambra/

    You want to hitch your wagon to that? Go ahead.

  • Sciambra is a wackjob with some heavy duty delusions or tall tales
    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/former-gay-satanist-nazi-was-swallowed-by-satan-but-now-straight-pal-of-bryan-fischer/

    “Sciambra first became interested in Nazism after acquiring a Nazi soldier’s hat after a German businessman paid him to beat him up and have sex with him on camera while dressed as a Nazi. But the hat ended up having a power over him: “Clothed in a relic of the past, the dead ghosts of buried degenerates could take over my body”…much like in The Simpsons episode “Treehouse of Horror: Hell Toupée.””

  • Face palm! face palm! FAcepalm! . I’m just like a serial killer.

    Good to know this is all about your sincere religious belief, Ignorant, bigoted, religious belief, but there you have it.

  • Good for you, Fred. You can certainly define what you clearly are out of existence. If it brings you happiness, more power to you.

    Personally, even were I a Christian, I wouldn’t wish to live my life that way,

  • I have to agree with you scambra is amazingly vicious, even for a gay person.

    Look at the life he lived, the Lies he tells. I mean really! NEo nazi sex clubs.

  • Sure. See below.

    1. “Suicide in married couples in Sweden: Is the risk greater in same-sex couples?”
    Björkenstam C, et al.
    Eur J Epidemiol. 2016 May 11.

    2. “Exploring a Dutch paradox: an ethnographic investigation of gay men’s mental health”
    Sanjay Aggarwala & Rene Gerrets
    Culture, Health & Sexuality: An International Journal for Research, Intervention and Care
    Volume 16, Issue 2, 2014

    3. “Same-sex sexual behavior and psychiatric disorders: findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study (NEMESIS).”
    Sandfort TG, et al.
    Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001 Jan;58(1):85-91.

    4. “Suicidality and sexual orientation: differences between men and women in a general population-based sample from the Netherlands.”
    de Graaf R, et al.
    Arch Sex Behav. 2006 Jun;35(3):253-62.

    5. Self-reported suicide ideation and attempts, and medical care for intentional self-harm in lesbians, gays and bisexuals in Sweden.
    Björkenstam C, et al.
    J Epidemiol Community Health. 2016 Mar 4.

    6. “Lifetime Prevalence of Suicide Attempts Among Sexual Minority Adults by Study Sampling Strategies: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis.”
    Hottes TS, et al.
    Am J Public Health. 2016 May.

    7. “Mental health inequalities among gay and bisexual men in England, Scotland and Wales: a large community-based cross-sectional survey”
    Ford Hickson, et al.
    J Public Health. April 26, 2016

    8. “Depression, Compulsive Sexual Behavior, and Sexual Risk-Taking Among Urban Young Gay and Bisexual Men: The P18 Cohort Study.”
    Storholm ED, et al.
    Arch Sex Behav. 2015 Aug 27.

  • No link for your cut and paste to the original article, only the alleged works cited. Which means it probably came from a source that is of questionable veracity.

    Don’t bother arguing with me on this. L1ars and crackpots of all stripes use the same exact tactic when they want to cite crap they got from a site nobody would ever take seriously.

    If you wanted to be believed, you should have posted the weblink to the source you cut and pasted from.

    I have zero desire to hear your excuses or ridiculous claims that I should take your prior post at face value.

  • Those are real studies by respected academics. You can find them on Google Scholar. Most of them have live links online too if you want to look them up. I suspect you would attack any links I provided. Take care.

  • Just to let you know, I am a Catholic and I don’t believe that innocent babies go to hell just because they weren’t baptized on Earth. Also, I believe that God can’t do contradictions, and that one goes to hell only by choosing it (over God). As a result, I believe that babies can’t go to hell because they don’t seem to have a chance to choose it, like the idea of something being vacuously true.

    The Catholic Church baptizes babies because it believes that good will come from it in the long-run. One good place to look is in “the fruits of Baptism” section found within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, assuming such a place exists.

  • You quoted a Joseph Sciambra article titled “Gays More Suicidal…and so are gay married couples”.

    I am not going to link to it because I don’t want to give the nutball the time of day. When you can show he has a doctorate in psychology and epidemiology your assertion can be taken seriously.

    You are a lying turd. Bye bye.

  • “How horrible it would be to go to someone with genetically related blindness or deafness, or with limb loss, and say “Congratulations! God *wants* you to be this way because He *made* you that way! It’s genetic–it’s God’s *gift* to you!”

    Actually, even if God gave someone a genetic defect, I don’t think it’s significant in the context of the problem of evil. Also, Earth is temporary, and God has at least allowed many “defects”, especially physical, in our lives that He could heal with a miracle (and He has done miracles for at least some physical defects, so why not others?).

    However, His infinite wisdom says otherwise. It is probably because life on Earth is temporary, and is relatively nothing compared with an infinite amount of time in the afterlife, like Heaven. In Heaven, no defects should then exist, at least to my knowledge. One reason for the defects is probably so more people can choose Heaven/God. That is my guess.

    Regarding whether God created each thing personally or had evolution do the stuff, I am open to both. I like the idea of evolution in that it seems neater, that God can set things up to where there is a “domino effect” resulting with us humans, among other species. Of course, I have no proof guaranteeing that it had to be evolution. It also makes sense that God could create each thing individually, and then let them run their course.

    For human defects, that could be from a number of things besides God creating it, such as some natural cause like radiation, alcohol, drugs I assume, or some other set of circumstances. It doesn’t appear contradictory to me to hold this idea and believe that God directly created all the species, and hold these two ideas at the same time.

  • Well, as James Martin can see, there are still large numbers of his fellow Christians who still consider gay people to be scum of the earth. They want gay people treated as pariahs, not welcomed. I feel sorry for the few Christians that want gay people welcomed into their churches – they have a long road to hoe and 2,000 years of history against them. And I feel sorry for gay people who seem to desperately want to be a part of a religion that will never accept them as full and equal members.

    I will only say that there are increasing numbers of us, of all sexual orientations, who have found that life can be fulfilling without a church or even a religion. And one can be a good person without either of those things. There is no reason to stay where one is not wanted – it’s a big, diverse world out there now. If one wants traditions, one can start new ones. Times change. People change. And traditions even change over time.

    I thank Jonathan Merritt for presenting this person to his readers in spite of the overwhelming hostility he’s received on here from other Christians. And I thank Jonathan Merritt for being one of the few people who represents the best side of Christianity. As his holy book says, one can surely be measured by how one treats the “least of these”, and gay people have certainly been the “least of these” within Christianity.

  • Not even close. Some LGBT people are victims of childhood sexual abuse and some are not. Some children abused an adult of the same sex are LGBT and some are not. The “vampire theory of child sexual abuse” has long been discredited totally.

  • Certainly seems like most of the hucksters surrounding Trump and who modern American Evangelicals follow are Prosperity Gospel types.

  • Now that you’ve let me know….. I did not and will not discuss personal beliefs. I can, with certainty, say the ‘Catholicism’ teaches its followers, that if one is not baptized before death, you go to HELL! So a baby is born, into a family that IS NOT CATHOLIC. That baby grows up. That (later in life) adult dies. He/She knows NOTHING about catholicism. That human dies without having been baptized. By Your Teachings, it is resting soundly IN HELL!!! So please stop the argument. It is not with me or anyone else. It is with your own religion.

  • The Prosperity Gospel s defined in terms of a particular set of doctrines, so I’m talking about “beliefs”…I’m not sure what you mean by “types.” If you just mean Christians who have reconciled their personal prosperity with the gospel, that’s a completely different question, regardless of how you come down on the issue (and I must say it’s not been a particularly pressing concern for me).

  • I’ve read his book.
    I have to trust that he has repented, as his actions do reflect such repentance. And I’m a sinner too- a sinner who believes that Christ saves us when we turn, repent and try to make amends.

  • His actions indicate he has found a nice niche audience for the overly credulous and hateful. Someone who spins tales to appeal to the prejudice of a certain crowd and sounds a bit unhinged.

  • ” There are kids that get sexually molested and become gay as a result.”

    If that were true, then accomplishing a reversal should be easy . . . simply have the gay kids get sexually molested by an opposite sex person, and they would become straight as a result.

    There are multitudes of gay men who have had sex with women, and typically it causes them to become even more certain of their gayness.

  • Actually, you have yet to show me where the Catholic Church says this is the case. If you were to find it in such a place like the Catechism of the Catholic Church, then that is one thing. Now, I think some Christian denominations may believe in this idea, but highly doubt Catholics believe this idea.

    In fact, (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html) points to the contrary.

    So, I claim that you’re arguing about a straw-man Catholic Church, which isn’t what I believe in, nor would this idea make sense to Catholicism which says that God is the definition of mercy.

    You also haven’t shown that my beliefs contradict Catholicism in terms of Hell being one’s own choice over choosing God.

  • Here’s an idea: stop beating a dead horse. You expressed your ‘beliefs’. I offered doctrine. We obviously disagree. Let it rest. I’ve had enough. You win. I lose. Glory be to the new ‘catholic’ god….. Ugh….

  • I’m not sure what that has to do with anything, even if true,I will note that you don’t erase 1900 years of abuse and carefully inculcated self hatred in a a generation or two. I will also note that you seem quite able to raise a nasty sneer over some people being so troubled that they kill themselves.

    Maybe you are part of the problem? Maybe you still think gay people ought to be treated as pariahs, because they are so troubled? Maybe you ought to be interested in compassion, instead of condemnation?

    Nah. Wouldn’t want to disturb your sense of superiority.

  • I actually learned quite a bit from the source I referenced. This horse is alive and quite well.

    Apparently, the Catholic Church hasn’t made a final stand regarding such an idea, that there are some who have said that the infants go to Hell in the mildest sense, others who say that they’re with God but without the “Beatific Vision”, and my group which is the most optimistic and hopes that they get baptized some other way (as they are supposed to be Baptized in some way before entering Heaven). That being said, infant Baptism is still important even if my own position were true, as there are benefits that should occur in that situation.

    So yeah, some of it is my own belief, which the Catholic Church allows to my knowledge, and some of it is what the Catholic Church says, like the idea of Baptism.

  • I wouldn’t treat it as an absolute. There are exceptions to certain rules. People that do became gay may do so for very different reasons. That includes being born gay and childhood trauma.

  • Martin advocates a change in the church’s language referring to LGBT people. But if the treatment of LGBT people who the church would call “differently ordered” instead of “objectively disordered” retains the same there is no difference. Martin is playing with words but offering zero substance.

    The only reason that LGBT people are “on the margins” is because the church put them there. If Martin truly wants to engage people “on the margins” he needs to urge his church to change its view of LGBT people to one of not considering them to be on the margin but to be equal. Commenting on sexual and gender differences is the same as commenting on hair colour or skin colour. It is silly.

    Martin is right that “simply being LGBT is not sinful”, but he stops short of endorsing the LGBT community’s right to act their sexual and gender urges. He is all smoke and mirrors and against deep change in the church’s teachings. Martin is coward who values his position (and his book royalties) over substantive change in the church’s condemnation of the LGBT community.

  • There’s no greater compassion than trying to keep your fellow man alive and happy. But I’m curious, what happened 1900 years ago? That seems to correlate roughly to the beginning of Christianity, but I wasn’t sure.

  • Let’s remember the Jesus lived common law with Mary and made her his chief disciple.

  • You understand me exactly.

    As for alive and happy, I am alive and I am happy and I don’t require Christian theology, anti gay or otherwise, to be that way.

    However, if you are so concerned about compassion and keeping your fellow man alive and happy, then I would suggest you revisit the toxic spew that is antigay Christian theology, and perhaps have some of that compassion for the gay and trans kids who commit suicide because of it. Depending on the research, they are two to four times more likely to commit suicide than heterosexual kids.

    And believe me, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with their being gay, but how they are perceived and treated by god fearing and god damning heterosexuals, encouraging bullying and spewing toxic antigay propaganda, hatred, and lies while hiding behind a mythical Christian “love” and an equally mythical “sincere religious belief.”

  • Hahaha no. Your “marriages” run contrary to God’s image of marriage. Im amazed by people who wanna be sinful and a saint at the same time. Choose one master and stick to him

  • Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. My husband just had surgery, and my tims is occupied.

    Edward, that is a perfectly reasonable description and understanding of what is happening. As often happens, though we might disagree ontheology, we’re 100% in agreement on its uses.

    BTW, It was not I that deleted the man’s comments. I don’t do that except in the most extreme cases of vileness, and usually, not even then.

  • I’ve heard about gay shaming, but I’ve never seen it first hand at my church. It shouldn’t happen. But at the end of the day, one can only be so delicate. I could never embrace the lifestyle as something holy and healthy. That would be a lie.

    Be careful out there my friend.

  • First, it is not, most emphatically, a “lifestyle.” It is a life, same as for any heterosexual.

    SEcond, There is no “lifestyle” for you to embrace if you are not a gay person. That’s why they call you heterosexual.

    Third, plenty of Christians do think of it as holy, or at least, no less so than heterosexuality. IT is not required that you do so. IF you don’t think it is “healthy”, that is also your privilege. But gay people live either healthy lives, or unhealthy lives, the same as heterosexuals. Neither has a thing to do with sexual orientation. If you choose to believe otherwise, it is also your privilege. But then, it would simply be yet another misinformed opinion, one informed by prejudice, not by knowledge.

    Thanks for your good wishes. I am very careful.

  • Considering that, in the US alone, homosexuals account for close to 5% of the population, it is hard to – on a common sense level – to take your view seriously. The fact of the matter is that civilization is contingent upon heterosexuality. Regardless, that is not the point.

    What we are talking about is active homosexuals, that is, men and women who actively, willingly and, deliberately engage in homosexual acts. Celibate homosexuals who actively seek God and unite their sacrifice with Christ’s are not the topic here. Those that freely choose to pervert their sexuality are the ones who have made homosexuality “objectively disordered” in the sense that the ultimate act of homosexual sex in not inclinated toward that which God made it for.

  • Comparing humans to animals is idiotic. God did not make or design gay people; you are starting from the supposition that homosexuals are “born that way.” The simple fact is that if God did make someone gay, this does not mean that they have to commit sexual sin – via homosexual acts, any more than a non-married heterosexual couple.

  • Your assertions about what God “intended” human sexuality for are all bigoted nonsense, based on cherry-picking sometimes intentionally mistranslated Bible passages based on values and experiences deader than the cultures that spawned them. Most of what people knew or thought they knew back then about the world and humanity has all been proven wrong and/or misguided. Appealing to past ignorance as a source of future wisdom is at best a fool’s errand. The important values from the Bible are not misguided or mistaken views on human sex or sexuality but the value of humans and human dignity. Christianity, by virtue of its own internal struggles, more or less accidently inspired the development and rise of real human rights in the world. Sadly, the same religion that gave rise to human rights must now play catch up with reality or lose all relevance to modern life and living. Clinging to your silly and abusive homophobia only serves to further isolate and render irrelevant the actual messages of hope and inclusion found in the New Testament.

  • Just to mention 1 Sam. 18:3 – this arguably is a marriage covenant. While a straight couple become one flesh, a same sex couple become one soul. What makes this telling is that the Vulgate obfusccates another verse in this chapter, where original language versions have David’s marriage to Michal one where he becomes Saul’s son in law a second time. The first is with Jonathan.

  • The Church is clear here. Medical technology can be used to support or facilitate marital conjugation: if a husband has a low sperm count or a wife had difficulty ovulating, medicinal alternatives are permissible. However, artificial insemination, IVF or surrogacy is illicit.

    Additionally, you are forgetting about the fact that God is God and he can work miracles. To the extent that a heterosexual couple is having trouble conceiving or can’t, God can (and does – just look at Sarah) allow those who may be suffering through infertility to have a child.

    Conversely, no homosexual act could ever procreate (with God) to form another human being.

  • The church is against IVF and surrogacy? So a woman whose uterus can’t sustain pregnancy to term is to either give up entirely or wait for a miracle when there are other technological options available? I thought heaven helps those who help themselves. What if a barren couple after years of hoping for miracle decides to adopt kids instead? Is their marriage rendered unimportant or insignificant because they can’t have kids naturally? Then what about homosexual couples that choose to adopt. Is it wrong of them to do so when millions of kids are born every year without a home? If the purpose of sexuality is to be fruitful and multiply, don’t you think we as a human race have more than overachieved that commandment?

  • I cant stand these “Beat around the Bush interviews”. Can he not just be made answer the Question ” James do you believe homosexual sex is approved by God and in fact the bible is all wrong and so are doctors of the chruch Catherine of Siena ect ” ??? However in fact Fr Martin you believe that one man sodomising another is a good thing??? Its a simple yes or no Father Martin ????

  • “Comparing animals to people is idiotic.” No, what is idiotic is believing we’re not animals, that we don’t do testing on animals to learn about people.

    Now, here’s idiotic for you. So called bible believing Christians, who know nothing without checking their bible’s first– and still know nothing afterwards– say homosexuality is so unnatural even animals don’t do it. When confronted with the certain fact that animals do mate and pair bond homosexually, you simply declare that just because animals do, doesn’t mean we should.

    Sexual sin is YOUR fantasy. Sexual orientation is a reality. Your posting indicates you almost know enough to know thatsin and orientation are not the same thing.

  • Thank heavens I don’t have to procreate wth god, then. His one procreation has caused enough trouble in the world.

  • No, that I hate him is YOUR story, hot mine. I don’t know the man, but I do know what he does and has done.

    The word you want is contempt. Contempt for a man who made a lot of bad choices in his life, says he found Jesus, and now spends his life expiating his sins against himself by attacking other people with stories he made up about them. Most anyone who knows anything would call those stories LIES, but I feel charitable today. He works actively to harm people he doesn’t know who have not bought into his self loathing and religious mania,

    I don’t much care for homosexual hating homosexuals, because I am see what motivates them. It isn’t pretty. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, conservative religion is simply ingpfested with them like cockroaches.

    You can appreciate” his “work” to your heart’sdelight. I just prefer cockroaches.

  • Edward. Of course there is a middle ground. I have no issue wth people who decide that their religion requires them to be celibate. I think it’s stupid, self destructive, andan abuse and misuse of scripture, but I totally understand it.

    But people who take their own issues, and insist that they become other people’s issues…

    …who insist That everyone should be just like them, who tell lies about gay people in general, or who tell the truth about themselves and insist that their bad choices are true for everyone, who works actively to harm people who don’t buy into their religious or psychological stories…

    They are a different matter entirely.

  • I have to agree with both you and Edward here, but see my qualification of that above.

  • As a gay man, I can tell you that just because you made the bad decision to be a gay porn star and live a reprobate life doesn’t mean all gay man have done that. In fact, I would never do anything like that. You need to stop projecting your sins on other gay man. I am not promiscuous. I am not alcoholic. I do not use drugs. I have never participated in an orgy. And I value monogamy. You really need to take a hard look at yourself and start accepting that you are not inherently disordered because you are gay. In truth, I feel sorry for you.

  • How about simply none of your business or your church’s?

    But always nice to see antigay people go right for the jugular– I mean, right for dat ol time buttzegs. It is so difficult for antigay people appparently to think of anything else!

  • Don’t you think you should ask god to have mercy on you, sinner boy? “There are none righteous. No, not one.”

  • If you have Ever had sex with any intention other than procreation, you just invalidated your own argument.

    As have the 98% of Catholics who use birth control, as have the 99.9% of Catholics who masturbat3

  • Nonsense that kids are sexually molested and turn gay as a result. Why would they? There isn’t a shred of evidence to support the idea, just the fantasies of anti gay right wingers,

    In my entire life, I have known exactly TWO men who were gay who were molested as well. They were molested by their thoroughly heterosexual fathers, both knew they were gay from an early age.

  • Not a shred of e idnce for childhood trauma, either. It’s not how it works.

    Most children are molested by men– about 98%. So it makes a girl turn into a lesbian because she hated it so much, being with a man like That. but with boys, because it is such a horrible and traumatic experience, it makes them want more of the same!

    Sure, makes perfect sense.

    Educate yourself, dammit. That’s not how thiso wrks. It’s not how any of this works.

  • You should read his book “swallowed by Satan!” He really called it that. In it. He claimed that looking at playboy turned him gay. He also has been to many neo nazi sex clubs. You know, there isn’t a small town in America that doesn’t have a neo nazi sex club, though most people think of it as the police department.

  • He doesn’t assume it. He needs to believe it. no narrative of unrepentant blazing sin, no redemption and salvation.

  • No, most assuredly, we are not ALL in need of it. Some of us prefer to live our lives in dignity.

  • There is zero evidence for genetic causes of heterosexuality. ZERO! LOok it up.

    but of course, when you say zero evidence, you are simply ignoring the mountains of scientific evidence that is out there, the mountains of informed opinion from virtually every scientifc organization on the planet that has a thing to say about it, the failure of exgay therapy to turn anyone heterosexual, the failure of Jesus to turn just about anyone heterosexual, the testimonies of millions of gay people, and the positions of the mormon and Catholic Churches,as well as many liberal ones,
    .
    but hey. ZERO evidence,

  • Twisting twisting. They recognize there is a lot of evidence, but nothing that elucidates a single, definitive theory. But the last sentence is really all you need.

  • No, that’s your belief. When you claim thesame thing for heterosexuals, , let me know.

  • What spuddie said. You people just lap upthis depths-of-depravity-but-I-found-Jesus stuff. It’s fantasy, but it’s also religious porn.

    Ever see mel Gibson sado-porn movie? A thrill a minute. And much the same genre.

    Get some real porn and do yourself a favor.

  • So is the story of the woman of Gibeah about heterosexuality?

    I don’t think you would say so.

  • The homophobes who go straight for the gutter often have their own “public bathroom” stories to hide, like that closet homophobic Mormon congressman from Idaho. You believe in confession, so why not share? There has to be a personal story behind your fascination with gay anal sex. Care to share?

  • The reason that celibacy is totally unnecessary to the LGBTQ person of faith is that sexual activity does not interfere with their innate spiritual abilities. Gay priests have been having fun with other gay priests for centuries without the least bit of lost credibility in the services rendered. Gay clergy and shamans in other belief systems who are not pressured to celibacy give full spiritual guidance with active, gay sex lives.

  • I pre ordered this book and looking forward to reading it. I am a faithful mass attending Roman Catholic, with a strong love for the faith handed to us from the Apostles. I am also gay. The first thing any gay Christian will tell you, is that gay people have to learn to take Christ’s teachings to heart, and learn to forgive when people hurt us, just about every single day. Reading the posts on here of heterosexual people speaking as if they know what it is like to be a gay catholic borders on absurdity. It never stops hurting when you hear (or read) your fellow Christian’s saying the most terrible and false misconceptions about LGBT people. It would be laughable if not for the lives that have been destroyed by people of faith. Small wonder the suicide rate of gay youth is so dreadfully high. All Proff that Fr. Martin’s book is needed now more than ever.
    I might suggest actually reading Father’s book before screaming heresy.

  • The Origin of Homosexuality

    The Origin and Evils of Idolatry – Ws 14:12-31 (RSVCE) – https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Wisdom+14%3A12-31&version=RSVCE

    12 For the idea of making idols was the beginning of fornication,
    and the invention of them was the corruption of life,
    13 for neither have they existed from the beginning
    nor will they exist for ever.

    14 For through the vanity of men they entered the world,
    and therefore their speedy end has been planned.

    […]

    22 Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God,
    but they live in great strife due to ignorance,
    and they call such great evils peace.
    23 For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries,
    or hold frenzied revels with strange customs,
    24 they no longer keep either their lives or their marriages pure,

    but they either treacherously kill one another, or grieve one another by adultery,
    25 and all is a raging riot of blood and murder, theft and deceit, corruption, faithlessness, tumult, perjury,
    26 confusion over what is good, forgetfulness of favors,
    pollution of souls, sex perversion [sins against nature],
    disorder in marriage, adultery, and debauchery.
    27 For the worship of idols not to be named
    is the beginning and cause and end of every evil
    .
    28 For their worshipers either rave in exultation, or prophesy lies,
    or live unrighteously, or readily commit perjury;
    29 for because they trust in lifeless idols
    they swear wicked oaths and expect to suffer no harm.
    30 But just penalties will overtake them on two counts:
    because they thought wickedly of God in devoting themselves to idols,
    and because in deceit they swore unrighteously through contempt for holiness.
    31 For it is not the power of the things by which men swear,
    but the just penalty for those who sin,
    that always pursues the transgression of the unrighteous. (My emphasis)

    It is of the devil and his children to bring about evil and then turn around and blame the Church or blaspheme via fake/pseudo-science e.g., that God is the origin of the homosexuality disorder.

    I hope it is clear to the readers of this comment of what has come to light as regards the religion of the elite, and that is Luciferianism, and their satanic child sacrifices and satanic ritual abuse.

    YouTube has revelations by a military wife Kay Griggs on Satanism/Homosexual rituals in the Military [one can’t advance without participating in] which show how perverse and depraved homosexuality is. She reveals how a group of officers, some very high up and one them her husband, used to throw pool parties to which ladies were invited. The ladies were there just so that the men could get it up and then the men turned [word purposefully chosen] on each other with the ladies being sent away.

  • And it is because of unthinking, hateful and doctrinaire people like you that LGBT community continues to be discriminated against.

  • Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Romans 1:26-27 all clearly and unequivocally define homosexuality as a sin, an abomination, stating that those who participate in homosexual acts won’t inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
    Romans 1:26-27 “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

    Leviticus 20:13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” Leviticus 18:22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

  • Argue with the American Psychological Association. They’re the ones who say:

    “There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.”

  • Then, the Saints of the Church are correct when they say:

    “The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love Almighty God.”
    -Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori

    “The common opinion is that the greater part of adults is lost.”
    Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori

    ‘For many are called, but few chosen.’
    Mark 20:16

    ‘The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.’
    Pope St. Gregory the Great

    ‘If you would be quite sure of your salvation, strive to be among the fewest of the few. Do not follow the majority of mankind, but follow those who renounce the world and never relax their efforts day or night so that they may attain everlasting blessedness.’
    St. Anselm

    ‘Not all, nor even a majority, are saved. . . They are indeed many, if regarded by themselves, but they are few in comparison with the far larger number of those who shall be punished with the devil.’
    St. Augustine

    ‘The number of the elect is so small – so small – that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief.
    St. Louis Marie de Montfort

    ‘A great number of Christians are lost.’
    St. Leonard of Port Maurice

    ‘The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love Almighty God.’
    St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

    ‘With the exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned.’
    St. Regimius of Rheims

    ‘Christ’s flock is called “little” (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.’
    St. Bede the Venerable

    I could go on but you get the picture. If in fact 98% of Catholics contracept and masturbate, then they are in direct conflict with Church teaching (See CCC #2337-2359). The real question that you must ask yourself is how many of the 98% have been taught that they are commiting offenses against God? You see, if through no fault of their own and they have never been taught right from wrong, then they aren’t condemned. Furthermore, how many of the 98% do know that it is wrong and strive ardently to conform to a lifestyle that is the one set up by God? Conversely, how many of the 98% know the truth, deliberately fall into sin, willfully promote sin and, just don’t care? These latter members of the Body of Christ are the ones in most need of His mercy and truth found within the Catholic Church.

    98% of Catholics contracepting and maturbating simply means that the vast majority are sinners in need of the truth. It is up the the bishops, archbishops and, parish priests to deliver – for the good of their souls – the truth.

  • Actually, since God is the author of all Creation…you need God to procreate. Only he allows for the creation of life. So, good luck with your one person reproduction.

    Oh, and BTW, in regards to your original comment, the Church cannot marry any couple who are unable to have sexual intercourse but, infertility IS NOT a cause for restricting the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. See Canon Law section 1084

  • That would be a fun one to read on the bus and subway. At least for the disapproving nods in my direction.

    Not as bad as when I picked up The Turner Diaries at a used book store. Put a grade school type book cover on it out of embarrassment.

    Neo Nazi sex clubs are an unflattering way to refer to the Knights of Columbus. 🙂

  • Animals eat their own shit. This is natural. Humans are animals. Do you eat your own shit?

    How many people do you know that eat their own shit? Since the occurence of coprophilia is extremely common in the animal kingdom – more so than homosexual “mating and bonding” – I’m gonna assume that you must know more shit eaters than homosexuals, right?

    God created man and animals on the 6th day. However, he gave man one thing that no other animal has…do you know what that is? Do you know what sets us as human beings apart from all other animal lifeforms on earth? Think about that for a second, because the simple fact of the matter is that no other animal on earth is like us; not even our closest DNA relative, the bonobos monkey and chimpanzee, with whom we share over 95% of our DNA is like us. So, what is it that makes us different? Have you figured it out yet? Stumped? Well, I’ll tell you the difference between man and beasts, man can do one thing that no other animal can do, namely, man can worship. No other animal on earth has the capability to respond to God freely. As such we can then ponder and understand what God really wants for us and we are also able to know what is good and what is bad (sin).

    So, don’t lump humans and shit eating animals in the same basket…you do a disservice to all of us and, you disrespect God you gave you the capacity to know Him.

  • Yes. The Church is against any method that eliminates the sexual union of the martial bond when it comes to procreating. After all, these methods by their very nature DO NOT make a couple’s sexual union procreative. Hence, the church is against these methods. Read the 1987 Vatican document Donum Vitae to see the morality of some of these artificial conception methods.

    In terms of adoption, there is nothing wrong with that, many Catholic couples adopt. According to Canon Law 1084 section 3, infertility IS NOT a reason to declare a marriage null, unimportant or, insignificant.

    The Church has been clear in terms of homosexual “couples” adopting. The best place for a child is with both a man and woman as mother and father, in other words, gay “couples” should not adopt children. While providing a child with a home is a worth cause, NO ONE has the right to a child simply because they want one. Additionally a child has rights, specifically, the natural and moral law of the universe (See CCC #1950-1960) and can therefore be understood that the ideal for raising a child should be in a 1 man and 1 woman union of both the masculine and feminine. In 2015, a day after Rome’s gay “pride” parade, Pope Francis stated unequivocally that children need heterosexual parents.

  • God intended human sexuality to be male and female, period. If that is “bigoted nonsense,” take it up with God and basic human biology.

    Simply calling my argument homophobic – in light of 2000 years of Christian thought – makes your argument sound naive and unschooled. The fact of the matter is that the onus of proof is on you; you have to prove that homosexuality is awesome (never mind the fact that over 50% of all new HIV/AIDS cases come from the 3% minority of homosexuals), you have to demonstrate the homosexuality is a Godly lifestyle (never mind the fact that homosexuals tend to abuse drugs and alcohol and, tobacco more then the heterosexual population), you have to show that homosexuality is a union that is open to life (never mind the fact that homosexuals have a higher rate of suicides) and, you have to prove that 2000+ years of heteronormativity and homoabnormalism are false.

    Good luck with that.

  • Why do I need to ask for mercy again? Jesus died for our sins once and for all. I’m a believer and follower of our great Lord. But just because Jesus died for all doesn’t mean all will be saved.

    John 3:36
    He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Matthew 16:24-26
    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    I’ve been sanctified and redeemed by Jesus. I’m made new by my Lord. But, as Christians, we do still sin. The difference is, we don’t live or practice sin. Thats the difference between you and I.

    II Corinthians 5:17
    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    I have Jesus everyday. He is my God and Lord. But your god(satan) has blinded your mind. You will not see or understand the Gospel of Christ.

    II Corinthians 4:3-4
    But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    In the day of this judgement, you will stand before Jesus and He won’t know you. You will stand before Him without excuse.

    Matthew 7-21-23
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    After this, you will have your new home.

    Revelation 20:11-15
    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    This doesn’t have to happen. This judgement will falp upon all whom have rejected Jesus. If you fall before Jesus, acknowledge Him as Lord, confess youreself a sinner, follow His ways, and do this in faith/believing, Jesus will save you.

    It is as usual, your choice.

  • Floydlee is not a Catholic, Edward is not a Pumpkin or pumpkin, and there are definitely churches out there that consider simply being LGBT to be a sin.

  • No, I actually agree with them. And as long as you admit there is no genetic basis for heterosexuality, I’m with it. But then, you are also admitting that the invidious damnation you choose to fling at gay people is simply that– prejudice. So whenever you want to claim stuff about normal and natural heterosexuality, it simply isn’t true,

  • I’m looking carefully at Leviticus, and I see no mention of gay women at all. So you made that up.

    And I am so happy to see another good Christian wish death on gay people.

    You people are simply charming. CHARMING!

  • If God can work miracles, then why can’t he allow to men to procreate? If he miraculously provided Jesus’s Y chromosome (as Jesus would have to have had to be fully man), then why couldn’t he provide an X chromosome to the offspring of the two men as well? And a uterus and hormones?
    Oh, is this starting to sound ridiculous yet?

  • I was being condescending. But good to know. Sadly there are conservative Catholics who agree with this.

  • I guess that’s bad news for men with unresolvable erectile dysfunction, cancer-stricken women who’ve had vaginectomies, etc.

  • What a loving God you have. First he tells you that he loves you so much that he died for you, and if you don’t love him back in precisely the right way, you will burn in hell forever. That’s a whole lotta love.

    Knock knock!
    WHo’s there?
    It’s me, Jesus! Let me in.
    Why?
    I want to save you!
    from what?
    From what I’m going to do to you if you don’t let me in!

    But wait! THere’s MORE!!! So much more!!!

    Now we find out, courtesy of yet another Christian charmer, the ever popular Mr. Calvin, and his catholic groupies, that even that idea is a bait-and-switch designed to separate the sheep from the goats, or at least the sheep from the shekels.

    Now it turns out that no matter what you do, the number of people getting to spend eternity with this bargain basement P.T. Goddam is small– woefully, terribly small. Even if you say all the right words, and live exactly as The Men In the Pointy Hats insist is the only, correct, way, truth and life…

    Even then, why you just might not be good enough. Because Goddam, who loves you so Goddam much, has yet a few tricks up his sleeve.

    What a world you people live in.!!!

    ONward! To the pointy hat store!

  • If knowing god means knowing the likes of you, I think I have better ways to spend my sundays.

  • No other animal on earth seems to have the need to invent a god, a system of eternal rewards and punishments that seems to be rigged, and hatred directed at other animals for the crime of existing.

    So there you have it. But at least you admit that we’re animals.

    Some day, but not now, you’ll get your philosophical constructs in some kind of rational—- hahahaha hahahaha– order.

  • Cool–there’s no genetic basis for “heterosexuality” either. The Church has never made a claim that anything about sexual attraction is “genetic”. Nor do I. Rather, along with the Church I claim that there is no such thing as “sexualities” (plural) at *all*. There is only *sexuality* (singular). Far from being “prejudice,” it’s a universal truth of human existence and human nature that God gives human nature its nature-al inclination of other-sex attraction. That’s not reducible to “genetics.”

    Other-sex attraction–we’re born that way.

  • I see. You wish to both have your cake and eat it, too. And god, with whom all things are possible, will give it to you.

    Pretty silly.

    Have a nice day.

  • Heterosexual kids make up 99.9% of all unwed mothers and fathers on their age group. Heterosexuals make up 99.9% of all people getting abortions.

  • Ok, let’s look at this from a philosophical perspective then. You state that man invented God. Let’s see if that has a logical conclusion. The Christian God (that man supposedly invented) has several attributes, one being that He is omnipotent, that is, God has the power to do anything at any point in time. He is also Omnipresent, meaning that He is everywhere at once and, since He is not bound by time or space, He has always been every where at all times. Lastly, He is also omniscient, that is, that He knows everything.

    So, if God is a human invention, then man made God out to be present everywhere, having unlimited knowledge and, all-powerful: that is the God that man has apparently invented and guess what? This makes man totally stupid, why? Well, if God is everywhere, then man has no where to hide from Him, man can not escape Him no matter where he goes or turns to. Man made him all-knowing so, even if he could run away from Him, He knows our thoughts, inner desires, lusts, sins, impure thoughts and, shameful motives. Man invented him to also be all powerful which means that no matter how hard we try, we could never over take Him by our means and, in essence, we have rendered ourselves weak before an invention…Man invented/created something that made him weak.

    In other words, the God of Christianity – if He was invented as you state – was about the dumbest invention that man could’ve made for Himself! Think about it, if you were to create a God for yourself, would you give him these attributes which ultimately condemn yourself and make you reliant upon Him? Why would anybody invent such a diety for themselves? There is no logic behind such a statement that man invented God.

    What makes more sense is that this is who God is, has always been and, will continue to be. And, since he is all-powerful He is the final authority when it comes down to what is good and what is bad. He knows more than you, therefore, he knows what is best for you. If God wasn’t all-knowledgeable, then He couldn’t be God but, since He knows all, he knows and recognizes that we humans are very special when compared to the rest of creation.

    We may have been formed on the same day as the animals but, we are not the same spiritually and in the eyes of God. Animals weren’t made for heaven, you were. Animals didn’t recognize the divine, we do. We are morally responsible for our actions and behaviors, lower living creatures aren’t.

    You attempted to escape your divinely given human responsibilities by equating yourself to a shit eating dog. You are more than an animal, you are a child of God. Accept it and His ordinances or, put yourself outside of the argument.

  • Thanks for the complement! Do you know how many heretics, pagans and, heathens said the same thing to the saints? And yet, they didn’t budge from the truth, neither will I.

    You know I’m right and what the truth really is when it comes to homosexuality, you’re just refusing to ascend and assent to the Divine truths.

  • The fact of the matter is that most people die in a fallen state and not in the grace and friendship of God. NOT because He chose that for them but, BECAUSE THEY FREELY CHOSE NOT TO BE HIS FRIEND.

    You have free will, God gave it to you. That alone is proof of His love. How you may ask? Well if you were to love someone, would you stalk them and try to overwhelm them with your love or, would you let them – on their own accord – come to, at the very least, recognize that you have feelings for them?

    That’s who God is, He isn’t going to hunt you down and force you to love Him but, He will definitely show Himself to you during your life so that you may know that He is real. The question then becomes whether you use wisdom to acknowledge who He is or, continue to distance yourself from Him and ultimately eternal life?

    The choice is yours.

  • “In other words, the God of Christianity – if He was invented as you state – was about the dumbest invention that man could’ve made for Himself!” You said it, not me.

    “Think about it” I have.

    “if you were to create a God for yourself, would you give him these attributes which ultimately condemn yourself and make you reliant upon Him? Why would anybody invent such a diety for themselves? Well, if I were a priest, and wanted to live off the sheeple– which describes just about every priest ever– then that is exactly the god I would invent. I speak for god, so people, give me your money, and give me power over your lives. That way, I don’t have to get a real job..

    There is no logic behind such a statement that man invented God.” For someone who claims to know so much about god, you certainly don’t know anything about people, or the history of all religions, everywhere.

    I would suggest you read Winwood Read’s “Martyrdom of Man”. No less a person than Sherlock Holmes recommends it highly.

    Have a nice day.

  • My choice is not to believe in any religious silliness.

    As for eternal life? Usually, about a minute with you holy-Holies makes me nauseous. Eternity sounds like quite a bit longer.

    Have a nice day,

  • ED can be addressed through various medicines. If a woman were to have a total vaginectomy, then the Church could not marry her per Canon 1084. Additionally, the number of women under the age of 20 is almost non-existent; the vast majority of vaginectomies occur with women 50 and over. These women typically already have children and, in accordance with Canon 1084, if they are married and have a vaginectomy, her marriage is still licit and binding.

    Thanks for your comment.

  • God is a God of order and not disorder. Men were not made for birthing, we are not constructed that way per His design. If God could do such a thing, why would He? Additionally, since God cannot be something He is not, if He were to make it possible for a male to birth, then in His justice He would have to do so for all males, where would this leave females if not unnecessary? At which point, God contradicted Himself in making woman for man since he ultimately did away with the need for woman….See all the disorder when you want God to do something that goes against His divine ordinance?

    Indeed, your comment is ridiculous because it makes no sense, save to you.

  • There is your “basic” fallacy of thought. “Basic” human biology has dozens of common variations that get in the way of “normal” reproduction without medical intervention. As for your appeal to the duration of “Christian thought,” that’s almost comical, given all the changes and revisions that have occurred in Christianity in the last two millennia. The Apostle Paul gives advice on how to be a good master and a good slave for a practice that is now considered an abomination against basic human rights. By your standard, we should maintain slavery just so we can follow the admonitions of Paul. The same goes for his lack of understanding about human sexuality and sexual identity. We can excuse his ignorance on the topic, but not yours. It’s that simple.

  • It was ridiculous on purpose. When the answer to “Why are marriages between untreatably infertile couples permitted?” is “God can do anything,” then it begs the question as to what he can do. Your answer shows that perhaps his powers are limited.

  • You misquote St. Paul in Ephesians. In full context, St. Paul is speaking about how we are to be faithful servants to God and the idea that we are all “in Christ” permeates the first 5 chapters leading to Ephesians 6.

    What St. Paul is emphasizing here, is that the slave is the servant of Christ in obeying his master, the master is a fellow-servant with his slave to the same Divine Lord. In other words, masters and slaves all belong to the same God. THIS IS what St. Paul is talking about, you can see the same thing in St. Paul’s epistle to Philemon when he tells Philemon to treat the slave Onesimus as a brother in Christ.

    While the institution of slavery is not handled here, the notion of common fellowship and unity with Christ affirms a principle absolutely incompatible with slavery, and destined to destroy it.

  • BS. Slavery existed in the time of Paul. His advice dealt with life then, not now. It’s that simple.

  • He can do anything. But what you’re asking for is not a miracle but a perversion of nature. In other words, you want God to renig on what he already design and created in order to prove Himself correct.

    Now that’s ridiculous.

  • God has reneged on what he designed and created, it’s called the story of Noah. But about miracles: is it a perversion of nature to have the sun dim, change colors, spin, dance around in the sky, and appear to plummet to earth, radiating great heat in the process, so great that it could dry people’s clothes after a rainstorm? How about turning bread into human flesh and wine into human blood?
    I have no desire to see men give birth. My only point is that an answer of “God can do anything” seems to have some limits. And you have proven that point.

  • Making reference to is not quoting, much less misquoting. You’re simply trying to play debate monitor and false champion in another failed effort to control the discussion.

  • Where is it documented? Jesus Christ lived a chaste life and forgave Mary Magdalene for her dissipated sexual life. Why would she need forgiveness if he was living common law in sin with her? To state that Christ was living with Mary Magdalene in sin is a blasphemy. Open your eyes and place yourself under the care of the Blessed Virgin Mary who I am sure is weeping over what you are calumniating about her son.

  • The choice….

    Between your superstitious and toxic nonsense, other people’s superstitious and toxic nonsense, or no superstitious nonsense at all.

    What to do. What to do.

  • For your sake:

    How shall we persuade ourselves of the great truth that, in spite of outward appearances, human soceity, as we find it, is but part of an invisible world, and is really divided into two companies, the sons of God, and the children of the wicked one; that some souls are ministered unto by angels; others led captive by devils.
    This is the Catholic doctrine of the warfare between the City of God and the powers of darkness. P.S. IV, 91 | 19. The Two Cities | The Mind of Cardnal Newman, Compiled by Charles Stephen Dessain | CATHOLIC TRUTH SOCIETY – quoted here:The WAR: The earthly city, mystery Babylon vs. the heavenly city, Jerusalem – http://wp.me/p2Na5H-nN

  • David became Saul’s son-in-law the first time when Michal’s sister Merab was pledged to him, but Saul broke the contract and gave her to someone else instead.

  • Thanks for the reply, you will have received a query from me indicating I had not seen one, but that seems to be a result of Disqus and Gmail merging, sometimes I get double messages, sometimes they get lost. Be well.

  • Understood. Please forbear if I struggle to use the term husband, but it is my prayer that he recovers well from his surgery.

  • As is usual, the divergence of our viewpoints allows for no convergence, or nuance.

  • I don’t know if I have already replied to this, but it is remarkable that what you have said is markedly similar to something a close Christian friend has declared to me just recently, though the context of the issue being discussed was somewhat different.

  • All the world over, so easy to see

    People everywhere just wanna be free

    Listen, please listen, that’s the way it should be

    Peace in the valley, people got to be free

    You should see, what a lovely, lovely world this would be

    If everyone learned to live together

    It seems to me such an easy, easy thing this would be

    Why can’t you and me learn to love one another

    All the world over, so easy to see

    People everywhere just wanna be free

    I can’t understand it, so simple to me

    People everywhere just got to be free

    Ah, ah, yeah . . . ah, ah, yeah

    If there’s a man who is down and needs a helping hand

    All it takes is you to understand and to see him through

    Seems to me, we got to solve it individually

    And I’ll do unto you what you do to me

    There’ll be shoutin’ from the mountains on out to sea

    (out to the sea)

    No two ways about it, people have to be free

    (they got to be free)

    Ask me my opinion, my opinion will be

    (ah-ha)

    It’s a natural situation for a man to be free

    Oh, what a feelin’s just come over me

    Enough to move a mountain, make a blind man see

    Everybody’s dancin’, come on, let’s go see

    Peace in the valley, now they want to be free

    Young Rascals – People Got To Be Free Lyrics | MetroLyrics

  • Thank you for your good wishes. The words don’t matter. The intention does, always. For good or ill. And your wishes are good.

  • Check the Gospel of Mary and the 2014 book, The Lost Gospel. Your version is only what the church wants you to believe. Try thinking for yourself. Don’t forget that the books in the Bible are only what the church as decided to include. There are many other gospels that do not agree with the church’s biases.

  • I have quoted nothing here that is from me and I believe those quotes have reduced you to silence and have stunted the havoc you were creating here.

  • The problem is that homosexuality, and the Pride industry that follows it, is treated as a noble state of being by the Church. The notion that buggerers and tribades are treated as “less than” by the Church is at best ludicrous, and in actuality the notion is absurd. Even the pope said, “Who am I to judge?”

  • It’s simple, the Catholic Church invites all people to its church to repent and believe the good news. The Catholic Church doesn’t invite sin communities to come in and take over the church. Following the logic of this confused if not dangerous man fr Martin, we should welcome the adultery community, the paedophile community , and any other sin group and let them all just come in and be proud of their sin and flaunt it in our and Gods faces . Gay Pride is the sin of pride in their disordered sex. This “priest” is a wolf in sheeps clothing, an enemy of the Catholic Faith.

  • Whatever good the Jesuits may have done in the past, the order has become an active liability to the Church and an unrepentant promoter of heterodoxy. It’s a shame the Jesuits have such influence in the Vatican at present.

  • Of course, Catholic teaching is evolving. Slowly. It has accepted lending money for interest, It has condemned slavery and the slave trade. These things take time, of course.

  • I question this priest’s theology, ontology, epistemology (we now know that…) that de-sacaremtalizes marriage, love, and the created order. He is nothing more than a secularist dressed in clerical garb.

  • An idealistic and, no doubt, heartfelt sentiment from the period in which it was written, but it reflects the callowness of youth rather than a firm grasp of natural human inclinations. I think that history demonstrates that people, however idealistic at the outset, as they gain power move toward the tyrannical in their effort to impose their vision on others. Nor do I deny that such has occurred within the construct of Christianity at times. Returning to your citation of the Young Rascals. I will reply with, “To everything, Turn. Turn. Turn. there is a season, Turn. Turn. Turn. And a time to every purpose under Heaven…etc..” The Byrds.

  • Cf. Catholic Encyclopedia > S > Slavery and Christianity – http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm

    The foregoing exposition of the subject is an answer to their materialistic conception of history, as showing that, if not the only, at least the principal, cause of that disappearance is Christianity acting through the authority of its teaching and the influence of its charity.

    ***
    Catholic Encyclopedia > U > Usury – http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm

    The Holy See admits practically the lawfulness of interest on loans, even for ecclesiastical property, though it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject.

    ***
    Irrelevant, misleading and erroneous comments like yours tend to give the impression that the Church has erred in her Teaching in the past [or can err in the future] and that is an impossibility beacuse the Church teaches a holy and infallible doctrine in faith and morals.

  • Marriage is a natural institution, therefore, there are non-sacramental marriages that are valid e.g. between a man + a woman, one or both non-Christians. A valid marriage between a man + a woman, both Christians even when not Catholic, i.e., with valid baptism, are sacramental.

  • I don’t see a tendency toward tyranny among the Democrats and among the republicans who were “never Trump.”

  • Of course, Christian teaching has evolved over time. Here are some obvious examples.
    * The Nicene Creed was first promoted in the Council of Nicaea in 325, but the final wording came from the First Council of Constantinople in 381.
    * Christians accept that the earth moves round the sun.
    * They accept loans with interest.
    * They reject slavery.
    * They reject the killing of witches.
    * They reject the idea that epilepsy is caused by demon possession.
    This was not always the case.

    These changes came about because of increased knowledge and wider experience. If you believe that the Church is infallible in its teaching, perhaps this can be explained by understanding that its members refine their understanding of these teachings over time.

  • Perhaps Fr Martin has gone too far; or may be not far enough. Rather than rush in opinionated judgements, let us just sit back and listen, better still join in the debate. And, as our first fathers did, PRAY and pray hard for divine guidance for the Church to come to a ground that is line with His divine will. Let us thank the Lord for allowing Catholics to vent sincerely what they feel in these very confusing times.

  • The Church cannot ever bless a homosexual marriage and sexual acts between same sex.
    It all depends how those attracted to same sex live. Attraction is never a sin. But what Fr. Martin will not tell you is that the Gay Agenda wants the Church to approve their sexual acts.

  • I am, obviously, a Lutheran, but your words are gratifying. It is nice to hear of one who has been brought to repentance and returned to the embrace of your loving Father through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Sadly, this problem (the thoughts espoused by the author) are not unique to the Roman Catholic Church, but seem to be endemic in every part of Christ’s Holy Church on Earth. May we all, who embrace the catholic faith handed down from Christ, by the hands of His blessed Apostles and the Evangelists, stand firm in the fullness of His holy Word, serving in this world as His beloved bride. My prayers of thanksgiving rise to heaven that you have returned to the Lord’s loving embrace, and rise as incense that He would give us wisdom and strength to stand faithful unto the end in the fullness of His truth.

  • God has spoken concerning sexual purity and has been very direct that homosexuality, regardless of any circumstances is a sin. God the Father has exercised His prerogative and condemns sexual sin of all kinds, and yes specifically homosexuality (even in the New Testament). Sadly yes, it will all pan out in the end, God has revealed exactly how, and thus we pray for and call to repentance those who openly and unrepentantly engage in all sinful behavior, including the sin of homosexuality, that they may avoid the “end” God has revealed for those who openly reject His expressed will in His Holy Word.

  • Matt, I cannot imagine Our Lord being anything but merciful to little souls. After reading Saint Faustina’s diary on Divine Mercy I see nothing but boundless compassion . Thank you for attempting to address this with Brent. May the Archangel Raphael come down today and pour God’s life, healing and beauty into our souls.

  • Ben…could that be because God ordained that women carry the child? So it follows that the norm is that a man and a woman become one flesh.Not a man and a man or a woman and a woman. Yes, you are right about the demonic act of abortion. Satan rails against life in this culture of death where women put their own convenience ahead of their child. It is the greatest crisis of our time.

  • And now I appreciate the grace of God even more! It is God who will judge his motives and purity of intention not you.

  • My math teacher used to say, ‘ [a] little knowledge is dangerous’

    Organic development analogy [and that’s not what you mean], and we are in agreement. Evolution into something else or from a falsity to truth or vice versa, impossible. In her competency, which is faith or morals, the Church goes in the direction of truth to full truth.

    It may however be further asked, whether the Christian Revelation does not receive increment through the development of doctrine. During the last half of the nineteenth century the question of doctrinal development was widely debated. Owing to Guenther’s erroneous teaching that the doctrines of the faith assume a new sense as human science progresses, the Vatican Council declared once for all that the meaning of the Church’s dogmas is immutable (De Fide Cath., cap. iv, can. iii). On the other hand it explicitly recognizes that there is a legitimate mode of development, and cites to that effect (op. cit., cap. iv) the words of Vincent of Lérins: “Let understanding science and wisdom [regarding the Church’s doctrine] progress and make large increase in each and in all, in the individual and in the whole Church, as ages and centuries advance: but let it be solely in its own order, retaining, that is, the same dogma, the same sense, the same import” (Commonit. 28). Two of the most eminent theological writers of the period, Cardinal Franzelin and Cardinal Newman, have on very different lines dealt with the progress and nature of this development. Cardinal Franzelin in his “De Divina Traditione et Scriptura” (pt. XXII VI) has principally in view the Hegelian theories of Guenther. He consequently lays the chief stress on the identity at all points of the intellectual datum, and explains development almost exclusively as a process of logical deduction. Cardinal Newman wrote his “Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine” in the course of the two years (1843 45) immediately preceding his reception into the Catholic Church. He was called on to deal with different adversaries, viz., the Protestants who justified their separation from the main body of Christians on the ground that Rome had corrupted primitive teaching by a series of additions. In that work he examines in detail the difference between a corruption and a development. He shows how a true and fertile idea is endowed with a vital and assimilative energy of its own, in virtue of which, without undergoing the least substantive change, it attains to an ever completer expression, as the course of time brings it into contact with new aspects of truth or forces it into collision with new errors: the life of the idea is shown to be analogous to an organic development. He provides a series of tests distinguishing a true development from a corruption, chief among them being the preservation of type, and the continuity of principles; and then, applying the tests to the case of the additions of Roman teaching, shows that these have the marks not of corruptions but of true and legitimate developments. The theory, though less scholastic in its form than that of Franzelin, is in perfect conformity with orthodox belief. Newman no less than his Jesuit contemporary teaches that the whole doctrine, alike in its later as in its earlier forms, was contained in the original revelation given to the Church by Our Lord and His Apostles, and that its identity is guaranteed to us by the infallible magisterium of the Church. The claim of certain Modernist writers that their views on the evolution of dogma were connected with Newman’s theory of development is the merest figment. (my emphasis) – The Christian revelation | Catholic Encyclopedia > R > Revelation – http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm

    ***

    Taking just one of your example to counter: Re: your * They reject the idea that epilepsy is caused by demon possession. Cf. Mt 8:16 (RSVCE) – https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+8%3A16&version=RSVCE

    16 That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick.

    And Mk 1:32-34 (RSVCE) – https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+1%3A32-34&version=RSVCE

    32 That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with demons. 33 And the whole city was gathered together about the door. 34 And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons[.]

    Just in case these passages are not at all clear to you, Scripture distinguishes between demonic possession and sickness. Noting that that demonic possession can manifest itself with the same symptoms of a sickness or a pathology or even cause them, the Church is very careful to first distinguish the cause of the symptoms before proceeding with her exorcisms.

  • Oooh the “God knows I’m right, neener, neener, neener” response.

    I will pray that you find the wisdom and moral clarity so bereft in your conversation. 🙂

  • Thanks. I was just wondering. By the way, you really shouldn’t put your full real name here.

  • Thank you for the links to the Catholic Encyclopaedia and other sources, and for explaining that the Gospels distinguish between illness and demon possession. The lengthy quotation that you highlighted shows that there is room for ideas and concepts to develop as knowledge increases.

  • It’s a reference to Alice in wonderland. I think it’s the Red Queen that says it. Alice has a lot of wisdom in it, generally applicable.

  • Of course attractionis a sin. JEsus said that if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart, he has committed adultery with her.

  • Marriage exists nowhere in nature except among humans. Pretty much like religion, bigotry, and Ben Affleck movies.

  • Whether you see it or not in this instance is not the point, it is a natural human inclination.

  • Interesting statement. But, attraction is not lust. Lust is a strong desire for sexual acts with another. Attraction is just that. A girl is attracted to the boy next door or vice/versa with no lust in their minds.

  • Sounds kind of like a relative who calls you to say that after thinking it over, maybe, just maybe, they will condescend to come to your wedding after all, after having tried to keep it from happening.

  • An interesting take on lust and attraction. As far as I can tell, attraction is lust when you don’t have a chance…yet.

  • No, you are in error. that is not what the Catholic Church teaches about Hell or Baptism.

  • LOL! Just because someone wrote something doesn’t make it true. Look, for example, at James Martin’s book! He seems to advocate living in unrepented sin – and the Catholic Church does not in any way support this.

    See that? See how I’m bringing us back on topic?

    And like Martin (who SHOULD know the Catholic Faith but doesn’t express it), it always amazes me when those who don’t hold the Teachings or Traditions of Catholicism insist they are experts in it.

  • Part of the Catholic Teachings or Traditions at one time was that the sun revolved around the earth (and the church). So much for infallibility of faith. In modern times science has stated that LGBT people are not objectively disordered. It will take time for the church to accept this truth but accept it must or it will disappear. Similarly, the church must eventually come to accept that Jesus was either married or living common law with Mary who was his best disciple. Don’t forget that the books in the Bible are only what the church as decided to include. There are many other gospels that do not agree with the church’s biases.

  • Glad to see some questions about the role of a LGBT person in the church. Frankly anyhow he in the church no matter who they are. Who am I to judge anyone and what things happen in their lives are. Between themselves and the good lord. Peace

  • Martin is a heretic, pure and simple. There is no such thing as same sex marriage and there is no way that Jesus would have considered sodomy a great and wonderful thing. I am so sickened by this man. The smoke of Satan is alive and well in our church, all the way to the top.

  • Your ignorance of Christianity is appalling. I would suggest reading some early Church fathers, it may help you get over your ignorance. Sheesh. You have no clue what the Catholics teach of believe. Why don’t you pick up a copy of the catechism and educate yourself. Truly, you should be embarrassed.

  • Brent, you “offered doctrine”? Now, that’s real funny – except it’s not actually funny.

  • “Catholics also believe that children who are not baptised (AKA “baptized:) either go to hell, or remain in pergatory” (AKA “purgatory”).
    ?????????????????
    BTW, Benedict XVI abolished Limbo!

  • The problem is that Fr. Martin’s true wish is not for remorse, except that of traditional Catholics, whom he wants to apologize for ever supporting the view that homosexual conduct is sinful. He won;t even agree that homosexual orientation is disordered, A reasonable opposition to the word “disordered” is that it is hurtful, not that it is false. So find a way to say the same thing without being offensive. Trouble is, you can’t. Regardless how to try to phrase it, the truth remains: homosexual orientation is disordered. The Church’s mission — a good Catholic’s mission — is how to treat homosexuals who accept Church teaching. The Lord would have us do it with love, not condonation of homosexual conduct. What the Church really must not do is encourage LGBT in the pursuit of their ends — the normalization of gay sex and day marriage. That what Martin seems to seek. What do you expect? Another “new” Jesuit.

  • Stop beating a dead horse. You’ve been told the Church’s view of what happens to a child who dies un-baptized. Your ideas do not conform to the Church’s. That’s not my belief, I’m telling you what the Church professes, and it certainly isn;t that the child goes to hell.

  • To say that being gay is not a “struggle” (unless you “make it one”) belies the truth: just check out the YouTube videos of young gay men coming out to family. Rejection by family, betrayal by “friends,” condemnation by churches/temples/mosques is VERY real and VERY painful. Gay men don’t “make” this objective reality – they experience it. Get real.

  • I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I’ve been in our fight for over 45 years, and have served as both peer counselor and therapist.

    What I was saying was there is nothing inherent in homosexuality that makes it a struggle. All of the examples you cite are not about gay people struggling with their sexuality, but about gay men struggling with viciously homophobic family, religion, and community.

    There are gay people who struggle with their homosexuality simply because they have bought into the homobigotry crap that homobigoted churches sell. They are the ones who choose to struggle. But their issue isn’t their homosexuality, their issue is their self hatred.if they don’t want to live the “gay lifestyle”– the quotes indicate the irony– they don’t have to. No gay sex, friends, books, movies, hangouts, partners, causes, or anything else. Pretty easy, but it lacks any drama.

    But no, it has to become this massive struggle against temptation, against themselves, against the devil workin’ on them, proving just how right they are with Jesus. And of course, for many of them, it becomes a struggle against their gay brothers and sisters who have not bought into the whole drama.

    If they dealt with their self hatred, I doubt they would have much of a struggle at all. But if they dealt with their self hatred, they probably would not have placed themselves in their predicament to begin with.

    I hope this clarifies things for you.

  • Your explanation limps.

    How does a 9 year old boy/girl who realizes they’re gay “choose” the rejection imposed on them by knowing parents, teachers, pastors, mullahs and rabbis who vehemently see the 9 year old’s reality as an organic monstrosity to be subdued and/or reviled?

    The parents’ rejection in such circumstances is highly destructive, at best; at worst, it leads to self-destruction (which is why the suicide rate is indeed higher amongst LGBTQ youth).

    Really, this notion of your’s that you simply pull yourself up by your bootstraps and abandon your “drama” is exactly the self hatred you bemoan but can’t seem to see in yourself.

  • I don’t understand why you are determined to have an argument with me when I’m on your side and in agreement with you.

    Have a nice day,

  • I’m not talking about 9 year olds being taught by faith and family to hate themselves. I am talking about adults who have carried that self hatred into their adulthood.

  • You’re not on my “side” and we are not in agreement.

    The notion that a person’s trauma (usually rooted in childhood abuse) can be put aside through an act of sheer will and determination is the kind of Trumpian nonsense that infects uncritical thought in the US (and elsewhere).

    It is also delusional.

    And don’t try to dismiss your ill-conceived ideas with a smarmy “Have a nice day” so typical of the passive aggression of self professed experts of the gay experience.

  • You’re right. The “have a nice day” is passive aggressive. So my apologies.

    As for the rest, you are simply wrong. But I won’t argue the point with you. You are far too full of anger, self righteousness and aggression to see that we do agree.

    But for the record, my brother was someone who bought into that self hatred. It wrecked his life, until he ended it. No one said it was merely an act of will. But what is an act of will is recognizing the problem for what it is, and being willing to do something about it.

    The question I never got to ask my brother was, “so, yes. Our parents poisoned your life. What are you going to do now?”

    But enough. I’ve been fighting this fight for probably longer than you’ve been alive. I have helped a great many of my brothers and sisters in that time. If you want to believe I am the enemy, feel free. but your energy would be better directed at the real enemies, not the imaginary ones.

  • ` I remember God talking to me in my dreams he said “child for I know you before you knew yourself for I care before you cared about your soul for I gave you me before you knew my name” God loves everyone so leave it up to him to say you don’t belong because you’ll never know yourself until you find you self and then you found the God giving soul you have inside straight or gay. he made you that and “do not judge ,and you will not be judged”,(Luke 6:37) so by people judge people on the lords words your committing a sin. Remember everything has been on earth seen the beginning the gays have been here but just found their voice.SO lets be respectful like we are to our neighbor and by the way I’m only 13 and no the bible inside and out and really look into the bible. and RESPECTS all life like our Lord taught me

  • James Martin is, in the best of all cases, a heretic.

    As Bishop Robert Barron pointed out in his video “extreme mercy, extreme demands”, all people are welcome to the Church, and all people are worthy of Christ’s mercy. Yet, mercy, by definition, implies a will to submit to he who offers us mercy.

    When a person is sick and goes to a doctor, the doctor diagnoses and prescribes treatment. The patient needs to follow the treatment not due to reverence of the medical authority, but because of the fact that the doctor knows what is best for him.

    Likewise, homosexuals who attend church, are implicitly accepting Christ’s teaching through the Gospel and the Catechism of His Church. And why the Church opposes sodomy? Because it destroys the body and spirit of those who practice it.

    Christ said “I came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it”. And when it comes to the leviticus quote “you shall not go to bed with a man as woman, it is an abomination”, he did not introduce any change to that precept. If Christ did not introduced any change, he was aware that no correction needed to be made. And if Christ did not change the precept on homosexuality, who is this guy to start talking about tolerance and embracement of sodomy?

  • Another sorcerer’s apprentice in the Catholic Church. He talks about Zacchaeus but does not mention his conversion!!!! What crap is this man talking!!! No sinner is excluded from the church.The Church is for people who want to amend their lives, not for those who do not want to change. Our church describes the sin as an ‘objective disorder’. Does it use the same term for lying, stealing, adultery, murder, envy and what not???

    James Martin IS the objective disorder. He should not be a priest: Probably LGBT himself as many clergy are these days. Free loaders who can both have the cake and eat it too. No wonder many have died and are suffering from AIDs related diseases. This, according to our own (CC) internal studies.

    >

  • Jesus never mentions the word homosexuality. Paul does but not Jesus. Yet, millions of Bible thumpers and die hards swear up and down that Jesus did. Christ instituted the Sacraments, yes He did. However the Sacrament of Marriage was not proclaimed. The Church uses the occasion of Jesus and His Apostles being at the Wedding Feast at Cana as the foundation of the Marriage Sacrament. Actually, the couple marries themselves through full consent of their wills. The Priest simply is the Witness for the State and the Church. Therefore, if even through tacit consent, two people will one another in an intimate union (call it what you will), then they can do so albeit two males, two females and the more traditional, a man and a woman. “Union” means just that – a coming together in such an intimate way, that the two, whoever they be, are one. So my dear friends, do not condemn that which you do not completely understand. As a Priest for many, many years and later, a Bishop (now retired) since 1982, I have witnessed numerous weddings/unions. I have never had the occasion to marry a same-sex couple in all those years but I think I would probably do so now that I have a greater understanding. Blessings to you all, + Lawrence

  • 50 years ago, sodomy was still a criminal offense along with many other unnatural acts for example paedophiliia, necrophilia etc. For some reason we are told that homosexual activity is to be accepted as normal behaviour, in civil society, marriage, adoption and care of children, and some churches even appoint active homosexuals as vicars and bishops. I agree there should be respect and to respect is to speak the truth in Love, but not to bend over backwards at the expense of the truth or decency. God heals or helps people carry their burdens but does not give permission to indecency or any other sins.

  • I know this was all a year ago, but I’m Catholic, and I recently researched this topic, so, just to clarify: The Catholic Church does not teach that all non-Catholics go to Hell. We believe that there is such thing as vincible ignorance (denying God’s existence or refusing to believe or understand Church teachings) and invincible ignorance. A person experiencing invincible ignorance is someone who couldn’t be reasonably expected to understand/know Church teachings–for example, someone raised in a different religion who wasn’t exposed to the faith, or someone too young to understand religion. This is excusable, because they aren’t in control of their “ignorance.” Vincible ignorance is not necessarily excusable, because the person is choosing to deny the truth. Even if a person isn’t Catholic, they can still go to Heaven as long as they are open to the truth, and are actively trying to live a holy life. We believe in a merciful God. And honestly, who would belong to a religion that damns innocent infants to hell? That’s just not logical.
    (Also, a bit of writing advice: The all-caps thing does not add to the credibility of your argument; it just makes you sound angry, which makes me not want to agree with you. Pathos, my friend.)

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