Columns Jonathan Merritt: On Faith and Culture Opinion

Eugene Peterson on changing his mind about same-sex issues and marriage

Eugene Peterson lectures at University Presbyterian Church in Seattle in May 2009. Photo courtesy of Creative Commons

When a journalist has a chance to interview a paragon of the Christian faith like Eugene Peterson, there’s a lot of pressure to pick the perfect questions. I’d asked him about why he was leaving the public eye and if he was afraid of death. I’d asked him about Donald Trump and the state of American Christianity. But there was one more topic I wanted to cover: same-sex relationships and marriage.

It’s one of the hottest topics in the church today, and given Peterson’s vast influence among both pastors and laypeople, I knew his opinion would impact the conversation. Though he has had a long career, I couldn’t find his position on the matter either online or in print. I did discover that “The Message,” Peterson’s popular paraphrase of the Bible, doesn’t use the word “homosexual” and “homosexuality” in key texts. But this wasn’t definitive proof of anything. After all, those words never appear in any English translation of the Bible until 1946.


RELATED: Notable Christians who’ve had a change of heart on LGBT issues


So here we discuss his views on this divisive topic. Peterson’s answers are measured, but pointed and provocative.

Image courtesy of Waterbrook / Multnomah

RNS: You are Presbyterian, and your denomination has really been grappling with some of the hot button issues that we face as a culture. I think particularly of homosexuality and same-sex marriage. Has your view on that changed over the years? What’s your position on the morality of same-sex relationships?

EP: I haven’t had a lot of experience with it. But I have been in churches when I was an associate pastor where there were several women who were lesbians. They didn’t make a big deal about it. I’d go and visit them and it never came up for them. They just assumed that they were as Christian as everybody else in the church.

In my own congregation — when I left, we had about 500 people — I don’t think we ever really made a big deal out of it. When I left, the minister of music left. She’d been there ever since I had been there. There we were, looking for a new minister of music. One of the young people that had grown up under my pastorship, he was a high school teacher and a musician. When he found out about the opening, he showed up in church one day and stood up and said, “I’d like to apply for the job of music director here, and I’m gay.” We didn’t have any gay people in the whole congregation. Well, some of them weren’t openly gay. But I was so pleased with the congregation. Nobody made any questions about it. And he was a really good musician.

I wouldn’t have said this 20 years ago, but now I know a lot of people who are gay and lesbian and they seem to have as good a spiritual life as I do. I think that kind of debate about lesbians and gays might be over. People who disapprove of it, they’ll probably just go to another church. So we’re in a transition and I think it’s a transition for the best, for the good. I don’t think it’s something that you can parade, but it’s not a right or wrong thing as far as I’m concerned.

RNS: A follow-up: If you were pastoring today and a gay couple in your church who were Christians of good faith asked you to perform their same-sex wedding ceremony, is that something you would do?

EP: Yes.

RNS: I’d like to ask you one last question. You’re entering the final stage of your career, your ministry, and your life. One day, as with all of us, Eugene Peterson will not be someone who exists. He will be somebody who did exist once. When that moment comes, how do you hope people will remember Eugene Peterson?

EP: I don’t know. I tell you, I’m still getting used to it all. I’m still getting used to being noticed. People write to me. They ask to come and overnight with us, with my wife and me. Boy, the stuff that comes in my mailbox is just enormous, so I do a lot of letter writing and telephoning. And I’m just amazed really.

I haven’t been part of anything big. I’ve never been a big church preacher. I’ve never been on the radio or anything like that. I’m so pleased that people care about what I’ve done and support it because these are difficult times for the church. I’m quite aware of that. Anyway, I guess I’m just surprised that anyone would remember at all.

RNS: Thanks for your time. I know I speak for countless others when I say thanks for your courage, for your witness, and for your words all these years. You will be remembered, Eugene Peterson. For how could we forget?

About the author

Jonathan Merritt

Jonathan Merritt is senior columnist for Religion News Service and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. He has published more than 2500 articles in outlets like USA Today, The Week, Buzzfeed and National Journal. Jonathan is author of "Jesus is Better Than You Imagined" and "A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars." He resides in Brooklyn, NY.

998 Comments

Click here to post a comment

  • No wonder Jonathan was “crowing” last night. I miss the old Jonathan–the one who was humble and fair–the one who wasn’t trying to stick it to the man–the man being his upbringing. I have admired Eugene Peterson, but it is hard to take seriously the wisdom I have admired all these years when he is basically saying the very foundation of creation (male/female) is neither here nor there, and it makes me very sad. Of course, this opinion also negates many of the quotes he has said about scripture. All I can think is “Screwtape strikes again.”

  • You can now dismiss everything Peterson has said about scripture because you disagree with one point?

  • I hope that when I reach my later years I am still open to other people, and to new leadings of the Spirit. Without rancor or a sense of superiority, but simply as Peterson evidences here, in a matter of fact way that ought to happen with regularity. After all, we are only human beings. We see in a mirror darkly. We cannot presume to have always been right about everything in our past or even now. I get that you don’t agree with Peterson, but what I don’t get is the absolute rigidity. You cannot expect to agree with everyone about everything, and most of us don’t even agree with ourselves if we look back far enough.

  • I did not intend to mock…I do believe the enemy strikes and devours. Just as he blinded and devoured some good Jewish leaders back in the early days of Christianity…blinding them to the truth of God’s love through Jesus the Messiah… so today the enemy blinds some good Christian people and leaders from seeing the truth that God loves everyone, his salvation is available to everyone. I’m so sorry and sad that Christians make enemies of fellow believers who understand and believe the Bible differently. Still, even in light of that, we are called to love our enemies. The world will know we are Christians by our love.

  • I’m not going to comment on the actual issue at hand, because I just refuse to join in that argument on the internet. What I do want to correct is this statement. Yes, there was a lot of polygamy in the OT, but the thing that this argument always misses is that the “biblical reality” was that those relationships NEVER worked out well for those involved. So those mistakes were made and the consequences were also there.

  • pretty sure Eugene knows the scriptures better than you do. There is no “very foundation of creation (male/female)” in the Bible, that is a false assumption concocted by bigots like the pastors that have influenced you.

  • He didn’t miss anything. You invented something or were gullible enough to believe lies pushed onto you by bigoted false pastors preaching from a false interpretation of scripture.

  • The human reality of multiple marriages recorded in the scripture, not the design initiated in Genesis and affirmed by Jesus.

  • Here is 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 from The Message:

    “Don’t you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who do not care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don’t qualify as citizens in God’s kingdom. A number of you know what I’m talking about, for not so long ago you were on that list. Since then, you’ve been cleaned up and given a fresh start by Jesus, our Master, our Messiah, and by our God present in us, the Spirit.” (Bold mine)Did you catch that? Peterson’s version claims those who “use and abuse the earth” will not be saved!

    Here is 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, from the NASB:

    “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”You will not find this apparent form of earth-reverence in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 in any reputable translation of the Bible. It simply is not there.

    Here’s a passage about Peterson: 2 Corinthians 11:13–15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

  • I can’t understand Peterson’s change of view. I have had several discussions with him in the past while he was one of my wife’s seminary professors at Regent College in Vancouver, B.C. and found that he was a biblically solid theologian. He must be succumbing to societal pressure to redefine biblical doctrine. Homosexuality (as well as adultery, fornication, and any other sexual activity outside the marital bond of husband and wife) is unequivocally condemned as sexual sin in scripture. It’s one thing to love and minister to people in sin (and we are all sinners), but it is quite another to affirm and celebrate one’s sin and open rebellion against God.

  • Looks like he fell into his own trap.
    ““Here’s how it works. It is important to observe that in the formulation of this new Trinity that defines the self as the sovereign text for living, the Bible is neither ignored nor banned; it holds; it holds, in fact, an honored place. But the three-personal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is replaced by a very individualized personal Trinity of my Holy Wants, my Holy Needs, and my Holy Feelings….”

    We might suppose that the preaching of this new Trinitarian religion poses no great threat to people who are baptized in the threefold name of the Trinity, who regularly and prayerfully recite the Trinitarian Apostles’ and Nicene creeds, who begin prayers with the invocation, “Our Father…,” who daily get out of bed to follow Jesus as Lord and Savior and frequently sing, “Come Holy Spirit, heavenly dove. . . .”

    But this rival sovereignty is couched in such spiritual language, and we are so easily convinced of our own spiritual sovereignty, that it does catch our attention. The new spiritual masters assure us that all our spiritual needs are included in the new Trinity: our need for meaning and transcendence, our wanting a larger life, our feelings of spiritual significance – and, of course, there is plenty of space to make room for God, as much or as little as you like. The new Trinity doesn’t get rid of God or the Bible, it merely puts them to the service of needs, wants, and feelings. Which is fine with us, for we’ve been trained all our lives to treat everyone and everything that way. It goes with the territory. It’s the prerogative of sovereignty (pg 31-33).”

  • So you believe we should redefine man-woman relationships to also include polygamy … as well as rape and incest which are also recorded realities found in Scripture? Recording a reality does not equal affirmation of stated reality.

  • This is appalling. On every level, and both interviewer and interviewee. “Cease to exist?” Is this what Jesus said—man merely ceases to exist? Then Peterson himself: what sort of shepherd doesn’t bother to warn the lesbians he’s visiting that, unless they repent of their sexual perversion, they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1Corinthians 6)? As the son of the former publisher of IVP and a pastor ordained in Peterson’s denomination, I am ashamed of his betrayal of his calling and ordination vows; but worse, his shame at the Name and words of Jesus Christ. With love,

  • Michael, apparently Rev. Peterson succumbed to the big influence of the gay lobby, which has been breaking into the minds of solid, Biblically-solid theologians and pastors now for a couple of decades!

    These misguided individuals seek to make LGBT acceptance and gay marriage the biggest religious issue of our time. They either attempt to dilute–or completely obliterate–the Gospel message that Jesus Christ came into the world to transform our lives, and even–to my way of thinking–correct whatever genetic, hormonal, psychological, emotional or spiritual flaw or imbalance that caused same-sex men and women to prefer each other, rather than follow the beautiful heterosexual pairing that God intended for the procreation of humankind!

  • *drily* So much for that second greatest commandment: “‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:31) You must absolutely keep up the hate against LGBTQ people, who are worse than Satan, apparently.

  • Tim, let me be absolutely and completely blunt here: I’d rather go to hell and roast forever in everlasting fire than worship the creepy, hateful reflection of your id that you believe is “god.” And yes, I’ve absolutely spent time contemplating this. If your “god” exists, I want to stand as a monument in flames to the fact that your “god” is worse than the worst human being who has ever lived. No. Thanks. And this isn’t merely based only your anti-LGBT sentiment; you also don’t like women too much either and it’s based on your crooked, perverse theology.

  • Good for him. Paul is ok with slavery and advised Philemon to go back to his slave owner. Many Christians over the years in many countries used the Bible to not just support segregation, banning of interracial marriage, even support slavery. Now that wouldnot be the case, because our understanding of slavery has evolved as Christians.

    Marriage too has changed. Only very recently in some countries has it come to be seen as a love relationship between two people. It was and still is in many parts of the world arranged between families. Love had nothing to do with it.

    The Bible largely reflected the understandings and views of a tribal people over two thousand years ago, not an unchsngeable, clear “rule book”, but the best attempts at the time to see a larger life connected to their understanding of the divine. I like the UCC motto, “God is still speaking.” In your quest for certainty and security, do not fall for bibliolatry.

  • Or maybe he’s studied the Scriptures carefully and come to the same conclusion many of us have- that the misinterpretation of the Scripture is a serious issue and when it is used to limit people based on their sexuality, that is a sin against God.

    I seriously doubt a serious theologian would make these statements without a foundation of research. I wish more people would follow suit, instead of blindly clinging to tradition over what’s actually in the Bible.

  • This pastor is so pleased that people care about what he have done and support it but it does not bothers him that God is not pleased about it.

  • I’m sorry you believe that way. What readers should note is that I am writing publicly whereas you hide yourself.

    It’s also important to say that calling souls to repent of all forms of sexual perversion (not just sodomy) is an act of love when we consider that Jesus says, “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

    In our congregation are a number of former lesbians and gays who rejoice in God’s forgiveness and will stand at the Judgment Seat of God clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ—just as I will. Love,

  • From what I can tell you are all lost and outside of the Kingdom. For over 1,000 years there was one Church. (Okay there were two branches, who today are moving to accept one another again.) Clearly Scripture declares that this is the One ?Church ordained by God from Peter’s confession and calling. Leaders of the Reformation (better called the Rebellion!) were often politically motivated. They even debated which parts of Scripture should be included based on THEIR UNDERSTANDING of Scripture.

    Return to the Truth! Why will reject the tradition and decisions of the One Church?

    O wait! I get it now. We accept authority and traditions when they fit our theology.
    One can cast aside all those things we don’t want. We hold onto those that give us power to hold over others.

    Many of the arguments here point to the reality that the Reformation is. “the work of Screwtape,” indeed.

    Isn’t it? ?

  • Allberry maintains a person can be same-sex attracted but that acting on that attraction in a physical relationship is sinful. And in no way does he support same-sex marriage.

  • Jonathan, I am grateful for your reporting work. This interview is no exception.

    However, this interview does make me sad, as it reveals that EP has allowed culture to shape his view of marriage and godly sex more than Scripture. This is quite ironic to me since the effectiveness of EP has long been to speak the truths of Scripture in a way that goes against the culture. Ironically, EP stated his disappointment in caving to cultural/consumer mentality in what you posted yesterday: “Look at what’s going on in the church, at least in my Presbyterian church. It has a consumer mentality.” It is difficult to see the openness to gay marriage/sex as anything other than this same trend.

  • Is this article even real? Or is this some sort of joke post from The Onion? Eugene Peterson has always been a very thoughtful and articulate pastor and author. This article basically shows him to shrug his shoulders and answer the questions by more or less saying: “I dunno. I don’t care.” If this article is real and not fake, then either Peterson is suffering from major pastoral burnout, or is having a real crisis of faith.

  • Also a God who forgets to talk about lesbianism in the whole of the old testament and allows polygamy.

  • I’m just wondering what’s more honouring of Jesus: EP at worse being unclear or at best saying it’s not a big issue for him (and yes, there are bigger issues) or the vitriol in the comments in this thread. Let’s face it, many Christians have an issue with gays and lesbians, irrespective of their behaviour, and it does us no good at all.

  • Just like all the other progressive “Christians” out there, they completely neglect to address the verses that denounce homosexuality. Don’t you think it’s important for a scholar like Peterson to present more than a “I just don’t think it’s a big deal” when there is scripture saying otherwise? Even if he has an exegetical approach to why he believes those verses don’t denounce homosexuality he should definitely present his argument. Shame.

  • That is an incredibly inaccurate statement. Not only the historical church but the vast majority of contemporary evangelical scholars and theologians disagree with you. The scriptures are very clear and unequivocal on the issue of sexual sin in both the Old and New Testaments. Jesus himself taught about acceptable sexual unions and the definition of marriage. When Jesus was asked questions about marriage (Matthew Chapt. 19 and Mark Chapt. 10) he went straight back to the defining passages in Genesis that say that marriage is between male and female and is meant to be life-long, and saw the Creation accounts in Genesis as authoritative.

    The fact is Jesus spoke about sexual sin often. He warned against lust and infidelity. He confronted the woman at the well. He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. Likewise, Jesus condemned the sin of porneia (Mark 7:21) which is defined by a leading New Testament lexicon as “unlawful sexual intercourse, prostitution, unchastity, fornication, homosexuality” (BDAG). James Edwards states that porneia “can be found in Greek literature with reference to a variety of illicit sexual practices, including adultery, fornication, prostitution, and homosexuality. In the OT it occurs for any sexual practice outside marriage between a man and a woman that is prohibited by the Torah” (The Gospel According to Mark, 213). It’s misleading and erroneous to suggest that Jesus had no discernible opinion on homosexuality or that sexual sin was not an important concern for him.

    Dr. Michael Brown states: “And so, once more, we see the fundamental error of “gay Christianity,” namely, people interpreting the Bible through the lens of their sexuality rather than interpreting their sexuality through the lens of the Bible.” Actually, what Jesus did in such a radical way was to reach out to the worst sinners of His day and change them by His presence and His words rather than affirming them in their sins. I call this “transformational inclusion” as opposed to “affirmational inclusion,” which is not the gospel.”

  • Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives just as Messiah also loved His community and gave Himself up for her. Ephesians 5:28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

  • I don’t know which breaks my heart more…that he believes that the believer just “ceases to exist” or that he thinks that stepping away from God’s Word is a “transition for the best”.

  • I can assure you there are absolutely NO former lesbians and gays in your congregation or anyone else’s. When God makes them they are that way until eternity unless you are admitting that God makes mistakes.

  • Thanks, Tim. You convey clearly what scripture says and that we serve a God who calls us to righteousness…no matter what our “thorn” is.

  • Tim, you just quoted a very poor translation. Matthew 10:28 actually says “Gehenna” not “Hell”. Gehenna is a real place outside of Jerusalem. Do some research on the word “hell”. you might be surprised what you learn.

  • Your claim to omniscience — telling people you never met that “once gay, always gay” is now some sort of holy writ, that God Himself is now a liar, and that these people in Tim’s congregation must be lying to themselves — is simply because if they had repented, they would disprove your sexual dogma.

  • Agreed. The point is Allberry has chosen the right thing – to suppress his tendency toward sin rather than abandon the Orthodox teachings of scripture as Peterson has done in this area.

  • Does God make people murderers? Thieves? Child molesters?
    “Seriously, you’re comparing homosexuals to murderers?”
    No, the point is, that God does not make people with an innate bent to rebel against him. That is absurd. Sin at work within us creates the innate bent to rebel.

  • Agreed. I didn’t specify, but posted to make the point that even someone who struggles with this tendency toward sin can uphold scripture and resist temptation (and culture) rather than capitulate and abandon scripture, as Peterson has done.

  • Excellent point. I like a lot of Peterson’s stuff, but that’s because Peterson based his writings on a Bible that, (as Peterson made it sound), was clear, accurate, infallible, and authoritative right here right now, period.

    But now, regarding what journalist Merritt says is the church’s “hottest topic”, Peterson has abandoned his own solid foundation, he’s ditched his own Bible at a critical time.

    And as Merritt alluded, Peterson’s mess is going to **influence** other Christians to fall into the same mess. It’s already hard enough to find churches that are seriously into healing & deliverance on the gay gig.

  • Wow. I don’t think Eugene Peterson has really stopped to think about what he is really saying. The Bible is so clear on this topic. The Apostle Paul spoke to Corinth about this issue and the fact that Paul said..”and such were some of you” meaning they had repented and moved on. Do you think the Apostle Paul would of allowed outright homosexual relationships in any of the churches he oversaw? Of course not. We cannot stray from the simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ. For Eugene Peterson to be making a statement like this means this has been a long train of misunderstanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can be brilliant and have all kinds of knowledge but completely miss the point of the gospel. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” I John 4:1

  • You’re a liar, Mr. Bruner. Jesus is warning us about eternal torment following death—not the garbage dump. Stop misleading immortal souls. Love,

  • “Walking around seeking people to devour” is what the Scripture says. If you believe the the Scripture then you believe the enemy does “strike” and devours. You’re statement seems to communicate that you don’t. Does mocking those who do makes you feel good?

  • You mean the biblical reality of ****respecting God’s clear male-female gender complementarity for marriage and family****, even if you decided to mess around with polygamy.

  • Andrew has already”read”the Bible, DirtyHarry#1…discerning its teachings and understanding what’s being taught is where he’s failing, sadly.–Peace to you. ?.

  • Stop all that whining Mirele. You know and I both know that, while Peterson has a stellar pastoral-ish, caring-for-people-ish, and bible-ish track record, he has fully messed up in this one area, period.

    He knows better than to go this way, blindsiding his own Bible like this, at such a critical time for America. He knows that his words carry influence on other Christians — and non-Christians too. This is really not good.

  • “I wouldn’t have said this 20 years ago, but now I know a lot of people who are gay and lesbian and they seem to have as good a spiritual life as I do.”

    LOL. Peterson has no idea how true yet ironic his statement was. Yep, same type of spiritual life: Non-Christian!

  • Sin is something you choose to do. We are all born without sin. Thus a person who is gay is born the way they are and therefore have nothing to repent for. You are going to reply that they chose to be gay and all the other blah blah blah that evangelicals spout time after time. I can assure you that is not the case. Who would chose to be something that would have people such as yourself castigating, belittling and attacking them constantly over!

  • I don’t have to have met them to know that if they claim they were gay but are no longer that way to be able to call BS. You yourself are proving my point by your very reply. You say they were gay but are now miraculously not anymore implies that they were indeed gay to begin with. If so then God made them that way. It is the church which is going against God’s will by trying to make them into something which they are not!

  • I wish he would have been asked why or what changed his mind , I feel like I am left hanging

  • God says this lifestyle leads to eternal damnation! Who really cares what Eugene Peterson thinks!

  • Hi Mary,

    What’s your take on what the Bible says on this issue? Trying to gain perspective on the other side. Thanks for your time!

    grace & peace

  • Sin is not something people choose to do, it is what enslaves them.
    So no, I don’t think homosexuals choose to be gay. They, like gossips, gluttons, murderers, thieves, etc. are slaves to their sin.
    The answer can be justification of the sin, or justification by grace. One answer is effective.

  • You mean you would rather live in eternal agony than have a beautiful eternal life in Heaven? I have a hard time believing anybody would want this!

  • Paul didn’t comment on his view of slavery in the Bible. Paul respected authority and as a Christian you submit to authority even when persecuted and abused. That was the point that Paul was making to Philemon. Plus, the slavery of the Bible is not the same slavery that happened in America.

    Marriage has not changed. Just as the only way to have children is between a man and a woman. The creation itself points to what God intended. Let’s just say for example’s sake only, the entire world “became” homosexual. How long would the world last? It would go out of existence for lack of reproduction. It’s a self existent truth that points to a man and a woman as God intended. Man is born a rebel or sinner and won’t obey. That’s the real issue…sin.

    The Bible is unique in it’s declaration that it is the Word of God. The O.T. books were seen by the Jews as authoritative. God spoke to Moses and had him write it down in books to be passed down. It wasn’t just “their understanding of the divine” it was when God actually talked to his prophets in order to pass down to future generations. God has spoken! Your definition of “God is still speaking” is a lie that really means we can change and adapt “the truth” to fit whatever sin we want to defend. Just repent and give up your idolatry because that is what it actually is! Give up your golden calf of defining your own “truth”!

  • If you think that first century Jews who heard Jesus say gehenna thought he was referring to hell you are sadly mistaken. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there is no judgement to come, but the support for eternal conscious torment in hell is not as strong as you think. Why didn’t God mention it once in the old testament for instance?

  • Well I have DNA so yes we gays do have it and scientists can find it. Just because they haven’t found something specific that makes pepple gay doesnt mean it doesnt exist. What have they found in DNA that makes you straight? So now all of a sudden you religious people want to believe in science! As long as it proves what you want to believe you are all for it, but if science says something in the bible is wrong( which is more often than not) then suddenly science is the devils work.

  • How convenient that all of a sudden sin is not something you choose. I choose whether I gossip or not. If I kill someone or not I make that choice. So what about sin is not a choice? No homosexuals don’t choose to be gay, but they like everyone else can choose to murder, kill, steal, etc.

  • Most people have moved beyond the “gays are rebelling against God” thing. It’s because gays are living openly now. When you get to know a lot of them, the “rebellion” thing simply looks more and more ridiculous, which is precisely what it is, in fact.

  • All three synoptic gospels identify the basic message of Jesus’ life and ministry as: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

  • Also, the Early Church Fathers condemned homosexual sex in their writings. This is pertinent as the ECF’s were disciples of the Apostles and played a crucial role in assembing the canon of Scripture.

  • It’s decidedly inconvenient that sin isn’t a choice. If it were, Jesus wouldn’t have had to suffer and die for the work of grace and sanctification.
    What about sin isn’t a choice?
    Who would choose to sin? No one. In fact, we so much don’t want to sin, that we simply justify it by saying it isn’t sin. Now that’s convenient.

  • From Jeff Turner (on Facebook)
    If I asked you if you’d seen the newest Batman movie, at this time in history, I’d be referring to 2016’s Batman v. Superman. Had I asked you the same question in the summer of 2012, I would have been referring to the conclusion to Nolan’s Dark Knight Trilogy, The Dark Knight Rises. Had I asked you the same question in the summer of 1995, I would have been referring to Joel Schumacher’s, Batman Forever, in which the world was introduced to “bat nipples.” Had I asked the same question in 1989, I would have been referring to Tim Burton’s film. Had I asked the same question in 1966, I would have been referring to the more campy version of Batman played by the late, Great Adam West.
    Same question. Wildly different answers depending on when it was asked.
    In the same way, if I asked a believer today if they believed in hell, they’d likely have in mind the version bequeathed to them by Dante, and expounded upon over the years by churchmen. They’d have in mind the awful place Jonathan Edwards threatened his audience with, and that hellfire evangelists still dangle in front of their terrified audiences today. If you’d have asked that question in Jesus’ day, however, you’d have gotten answers that referred to a place from which one could be released if they repented at its gates. You’d hear of a place that had three literal gates (one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem), and that could be literally found and accessed through those gates. You’d be told about a place whose entrance was guarded by Abraham, who checked to see if a Jewish person was circumcised or not, and if they were, they’d be spared. You’d hear about a place which one could be tormented in no longer than 18 months.
    Same question. Wildly different answers depending on when it was asked.
    Look, what you believe about hell is entirely between you and God. In deciding what it is you believe, however, you should allow what’s between your ears to have some input. The hell we have today is nothing like the hell Jesus’ listeners would have known, and nowhere does he rebuff or correct their ideas. So why do we assume we have it right, and they had it wrong? Now, in light of who Jesus reveals God to be, I’d say we all have it wrong. But still, preaching Dante’s and Edward’s hell as though it were clearly taught in scripture, is one of the most intellectually dishonest practices engaged in by ministers on a weekly basis.
    Reclaim your brain, my friends. Reclaim your brain.

  • No, Joan, the basic tenet of Jesus’ life and ministry was repentance from sin, such as homosexuality, and putting faith in him as Lord and Savior.

  • You’re mistaken for one very simple reason. Even stronger than the gay lobby is the abortion lobby. If he (and other evangelicals) haven’t caved to “that” pressure, you are mistaken in assuming that they caved to a lesser pressure. Peterson is a sincere, principled man, and he believes what he says.

  • It’s the devil doing this as he has always promoted lies against Biblical truth. If you don’t seek God’s will and know your Bible your going to be lost.

  • I tend to agree with you, Andy. I think scripture teaches that there is indeed an unhappy future state after death but it ultimately culminates in the “second death,” the ultimate garbage incinerator just like Gehenna. Jesus promised His followers not primarily heaven but “eternal life” which would of course be lived in heaven. As opposed to eternal death.

    “Why will you die, O Israel?” Ez. 18:31

  • I know lots of LGBT couples who have children through artificial insemination. The ones I know are great parents. We are obliged to not follow civil law when it is unjust, as the civil rights nor hers did.

  • We can not choose not to be born with wrong urges and tendencies — that is part of our fallen nature. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, however, we can choose not to follow the dictates of the flesh and be enslaved by them.

  • Dear Mr. Bruner,

    Since you continue to bear false witness concerning death and judgment, this one final time I will warn souls against you:

    JOHN LENNON:
    Imagine there’s no heaven,
    It’s easy if you try;
    No Hell below us,
    Above us only sky.

    OLD TESTAMENT:
    Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind. (Isaiah 66:24)

    JESUS:
    Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] (Mark 9:42-44)

    Jesus testifies that the man who simply dies in the sea is much better off than the man given over to eternal torment in Hell. Death in the sea would be a relief to him. Love,

  • Back in the 90’s I heard Peterson relate a story of a young seminary student who came to his office. The student said he was in a crisis because one mentor whom he admired greatly was found to have been in an affair (I think that’s what it was) for many years. This student lamented he was broken hearted and disillusioned. Peterson said his response was,”GOOD! The sooner you stop living in an illusion about someone the better!” What goes around comes around.

  • You couldn’t be more wrong. Bible’s doctrine couldn’t be even more clear that marriage is between a man and a wife.

  • Tim Bayly, I completely agree with everything you have stated here. I’m very saddened by Mirele’s statement, all unbelievers are rebels against God but I fear for the outward rebellion of this person. May they repent and believe the Gospel. I will be praying for this individual.

  • Stunning rebuttal. Look, if you’re simply irreligious, no, I don’t expect you to acknowledge or adhere to Christian principles. Additionally if you are irreligious why in the world try to argue the theology of sin with religious people. What an astounding waste of time that must be.

  • My name is Deana M. Holmes. In your eyes I’m a perversion because I’m a single, never-married, childless woman with two university degrees, a job, a mortgage and an extended family I care for, but no male headship. I am also considered a “religious bigot” by Scientology. Last year I spent seven months of Sundays picketing outside Mark Driscoll’s new church plant in Scottsdale because Evangelicals can’t bring themselves to kick a guy who treats women like garbage to the curb. So, no, I’m super-unimpressed with you, Tim Bayly. I will remember, however, in the future, to sign my name since you’re so insanely particular about that.

  • That OT verse is actually speaking about Gehenna which kind of proves my point. Here’s what commentary says “Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah. The words that tell us that “the worm shall not die” and that “the fire shall not be quenched” point, however, to something more than this, to be read between the lines. And so those words became the starting-point of the thoughts of later Judaism as to Gehenna”. And that NT verse is also speaking of Gehenna. So much of our modern concept of Hell is taken from Dante.

    Seriously, if you want to read some serious research on this topic try one of these books. Once again, I’m not saying there’s no afterlife judgement, it’s just probably not quite as cut and dry as you think it is.

    https://www.amazon.com/Raising-Hell-Christianitys-Controversial-Doctrine-ebook/dp/B0056U9JHE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499882595&sr=8-1&keywords=raising+hell+julie
    Or this:
    https://www.amazon.com/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut-ebook/dp/B00IGGZRJY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499882645&sr=8-1&keywords=her+gates+will+never+be+shut

  • That’s my point. They had to go outside of the homosexual relationship to become a parent because that would never happen because of the physical limitations. That’s just a reality. You would think people would see that God created us, designed us to function in a certain way, which points to what is right and wrong.

  • “Great parents” do not create a child for the express purpose of robbing it of one of its own natural parents.

  • I believe the main message of Christ was Love. I’m not seeing that in most of these posts.

    Question: Does God allow imperfection in this world? Is every child born always perfect? We continue to love our offspring regardless of their faults or imperfections.

    Who are we to prejudge the ultimate fate of others or make comparisons with “types”. Who is to say a person is born gay or became a lesbian due to a situation? All I know is that Christ loved me enough to give up His life for me and I am not better than than any other person walking this globe. Only God can judge my sins. Only God can judge your sins. Only God can judge the people you think you can judge.

  • Well, the debate is certainly not over. But I happily agree with Pastor Eugene that if I were part of his church, those of you who don’t understand that the most basic aspect of the gospel is LOVE…y’all would go somewhere else. 🙂

  • No, Jay. Homosexuality is not a sin. They have no choice about who they are. And my experience with gay friends is that they are the ones following faithfully in Jesus’ way.

  • Wow! Could have fooled me! I had two birth children and one adoptive child and my spouse three before we discovered we were lesbian. We have -0 grandchildren between us.

  • Jesus lifted women up to a level of respect and love. In a biblical relationship between a man and woman, the husband is to love his wife sacrificially. I’m speaking from the perspective of a man or a woman who love’s Christ and that is their driving goal in life, even if we are not treated like we should be.

  • Some parents duck. They abandon the child. It makes more than a penis and uterus to raise a healthy, beloved child.

  • Oh, so those children were the result of a lesbian relationship? You adopted them. No man in the equation. Now I understand.

  • Jenelle I applaud you for being willing to be open about your past. So many people would not have the courage to do that. Jerry that wasn’t cool at all. That way of talking to people is the problem. All of us have a past a d if not for Christ all would be list.

  • Dude you are seriously just trolling people. Are you so angry with life that you feel the need to judge everyone?

  • No. I thought I was heterosexual, as did my spouse. We were not. We had those children during our heterosexual days.

  • Our disagreement is even more fundamental. I believe that our interpretation of scripture must be informed by modern truths, and I know you don’t agree with that. For example, a lot of people once interpreted the Bible to say that the Earth was flat. That was a mistranslation, of course, but the mistake was only realized that when science conclusively proved that the Earth was a sphere. It’s the same with gays, in my opinion.

  • You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term Chris. It has nothing to do with “coming out of the closet.” Rebelling against God is living an active lifestyle that is contrary to His plan for our lives and what He has declared as sinful behavior. Our sin separates us from a Holy God, and we can only be brought back into right relationship and healing by repentance of our sin, faith in Jesus Christ as savior, and a change of behavior. It is not a sin to struggle with sinful feelings, but it is a sin and rebellion against God to engage in an active lifestyle that is an affront to God. People in that category try to redefine the Bible to justify their sinful behavior. It would be like adulterers claiming their actions are no longer sinful and should be accepted as a normal and justifiable way of life. I have several gay friends that I care about greatly. It does not mean I condone their lifestyle as acceptable to God. Culture may change and try to normalize behavior that God abhors, but He does not change and His Word stands forever.

  • Either I’m not making it clear or your misunderstanding me. The fact that you could only physically have blood children from your body is to be with a man..points to the fact that this is how God created the body to function. That’s my point. To deny the obvious is to rebel against God. I know you can adopt but the child you adopt is the product of a man and woman. No matter how you get the physical child it is ALWAYS from a man and a woman. That is my point…God created us to function that way. We cannot all of a sudden say…2 Men or 2 women can now have a baby.

  • It’s love all right — love that motivated the Son of God to come and die for us so that sin could be forgiven and have no more power to rule over us or our destinies.

  • Some parents duck. And some pay them money to duck and leave their seed behind to be purchased.

  • Your view of the Bible is also incorrect. The fundamental tenets of scripture are not fluid and do not change with the culture. There are cultural aspects which applied to the 1st century church (Paul says “greet each other with a holy kiss,” which we do not do in our culture) but those things are peripheral and not doctrinal. God’s plan for marriage and His creation of man and woman are not ambiguous and the Hebrew and Greek cannot be redefined to mean that any other union is acceptable.

  • Sometimes, my philosophy works in your favor, as well. Concerning abortion, the scripture is not “pro-life” per se. However, modern science has taught us that the fetus is actually a baby (to oversimplify it), therefore we can logically come to the conclusion that abortion is against God.

  • Scientists tried and found nothing about gay genes, so face it. Btw, stronger evidence already proved that same egg identical twins researches done in different countries with large sample sizes have shown that very small percentage under 10% both twins are homosexuals. homosexual came from the influence after birth.
    So wake up and face reality. Stop lying to yourself n the world. LOL

  • You mean the sin of sexually assaulting women, bragging about it and then having your Evangeical enablers tell their people to go out and vote for that guy for president? Please.

  • Scientists found X and Y chromosomes the define the male n female sex alright! Guess you should know that.

  • Here’s one of the things Jesus said: Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?

    “Who are we to prejudge . . .”

    That’s false. You ignore the obvious: God has clearly revealed his terms and conditions to us.

    “Who is to say a person is born gay or became a lesbian due to a situation?”

    Insert “adulterer” or “murderer” or any other sin in there and see how it sounds.

    “Only God can judge . . .”

    You are a tone-deaf hypocrite who can’t see how he judges nonstop.

  • uh no he didnt jesus never mentioned homosexuality he also traveled with 12 men and was himself probably gay or bi

  • no such thing as a former lesbian sorry. Sexuality doesn’t change, its why gay conversion therapy fails

  • The basic tenet of Jesus’ life and ministry was repentance from sin? Wow. We are NOT reading the same book.

  • Hi Michael,

    I find it interesting that you use Matthew 19 and Mark 10 to condemn gay marriage. I always find it unusual when people try to make a passage about gay marriage when the passage really has nothing to do with the topic at all. Jesus was addressing a question posed to him by the Pharisees about whether a man could divorce his wife.

    Of course Jesus didn’t say, “Now, if a man wanted to divorce his husband…” because this question wouldn’t even have occurred to anyone in that culture, and it wasn’t what they were talking about anyway. Gay marriage wouldn’t have been a topic of debate in that culture because there wasn’t a “gay rights” movement back then. People in Jesus’ culture would have assumed any instance of same-sex relations would have been something practiced among the pagans, such as the Greeks and Romans (according to their interpretations of the relevant OT passages).

    No one is saying that Jesus didn’t speak against sexual sin often. Yes, he did condemn porneia. At best, you can argue that porneia is a “catch-all” term for any kind of unlawful sexual sin. The term itself doesn’t specifically *mean* “homosexuality.” What is described in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 certainly could fall under the category of what counts as porneia, but nevertheless porneia is still a *general* term, not a specific one.

    Jesus’ opinion on same-sex relations, in light of what he said in Matthew 5:17-20 regarding the fact that “he did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets” but to “fulfill” them, was probably that any kind of sex between two men or two women was wrong. I don’t think there’s a whole lot of evidence from the New Testament that Jesus actively thought about gay sex between people that much, if at all. If anyone were caught in a gay relationship of any kind in Jesus’ culture, they would have been put to death (as commanded in Leviticus 20:13).

    One could assume that Jesus believed that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 should not be ignored from this statement: “Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commandsa and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19). Presumably, this not only includes Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, but one could even argue that it includes the death penalty part of Leviticus 20:13.

    But here’s what’s interesting. The Torah also had a death penalty for adultery just three verses earlier (Leviticus 20:10). Yet Jesus, while telling the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more (John 8:11), in that same verse, he says, “Neither do I condemn you.” The others who were going to condemn her realized their own sins and found out that they could not condemn her any more than any one else can.

    And even the one who could condemn her, the one without sin, chose not to.

    I’m not arguing here that this somehow means Jesus thought adultery was okay. He clearly didn’t because he told the woman to go and sin no more. But I am arguing it should say something about our response to people we believe are in sin.

    I think it’s revealing, for example, how sometimes gleefully and other times reflexively we just throw Romans 1:26-27 in a gay couple’s face, for example, and then forget about Romans 2:1, where Paul turns the mirror back on the one who sits in judgment over the group of people he just described in Romans 1:18-32: “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.”

    I’m not going to sit here and spend my time arguing with anyone here whether or not being in a gay relationship is a sin according to the Bible. I’m also not going to try to convince any man here that if he has sex with a woman during her period, he’s committing an abomination too according to the fact that Leviticus 18:19 is in the list of sexual abominations (Leviticus 18:24) that are condemned in Leviticus 18:6-23. But I’m not going to try to argue that.

    All I’m trying to say is that if you think you’re any better than a gay person who doesn’t suppress their sexual attractions, the Bible says you’re wrong. Michael Brown talks about Jesus reaching out to the “worst sinners” of his day? Well Paul called himself the worst of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15-16). He didn’t say he *was* the worst or the foremost. The Greek says, “of whom I am the foremost.” And even Paul didn’t spend the majority (or even a major chunk) of his time in his letters freaking out about gay people the way so many of us modern Christians do, even if you interpret the relevant passages that way.

    I don’t know what to say regarding Eugene Peterson’s change in perspective, other than the fact that he has been a pastor. I am not a pastor, but from my observations, pastors encounter people who may not always fit the way they’ve always interpreted Scripture. Maybe we have assumptions about both gay relationships and the relevant biblical passages that play into our interpretation. What Dr. Michael Brown calls “transformational inclusion” seems limited in his discourse to people he obsesses over and sees as being in particular forms of sexual sin. Why did Brown and many other evangelicals like him vote for Trump *anyway* despite Trump’s misogyny and groping of women? Why aren’t evangelicals *just as upset about sins like this* as they seem to be about what two gay people do in their bedrooms? Brown says he had “reservations” about voting for Trump, but he did so anyway. And why? Because Trump would make life more difficult for the LGBTQ+ people that Brown supposedly “loves” with his supposed “transformational” love. So Brown cares about *some* “sexual sin,” but others he doesn’t care about enough to keep him from voting for someone.

  • There was nothing uncool about what I said to her. Her and those like her are why the LGBT community are so persecuted. She claims to be an ex- lesbian when she is no such thing. If she was ever a lesbian then she was born a lesbian and nothing she can do would change that fact. If anyone was being uncool it was her by perpetuating this ex this and ex that crap and helping support the cause of those who demonize the LGBT community!

  • Your problem is how you define “love.”

    If you love God, you won’t alter his word in any way like Peterson did.

    If you love your neighbors, you won’t tell them the opposite of what God did.

  • You just said under 10 percent were born homosexual which means they were born that way. If you are going to argue at least be intelligent.

  • The last part of your statement is too ridiculous to comment on. But as far as Jesus mentioning homosexuality, your statement is illogical and you are seriously misled about the teachings of Christ. You argument that Jesus “never mentioned homosexuality” is flawed. Jesus compassionately ministered to people in sin with love (and we are to do the same) but his concluding word was always “go and sin no more.” Jesus did teach about acceptable sexual unions and the definition of marriage. When Jesus was asked questions about marriage (Matthew Chapt. 19 and Mark Chapt. 10) he went straight back to the defining passages in Genesis that say that marriage is between male and female and is meant to be life-long. He saw the Creation accounts in Genesis as authoritative.

    It’s hopelessly anachronistic to expect Jesus to directly address all our contemporary concerns. Jesus never said anything explicitly about child abuse, domestic abuse, bestiality, abortion or dozens of other sins. He never preached a sermon on homosexuality because no one in his circles by any stretch of the imagination would have approved of homosexuality under any circumstances.
    I repeat:
    The fact is Jesus spoke about sexual sin often. He warned against lust and infidelity. He confronted the woman at the well. He told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. Likewise, Jesus condemned the sin of porneia (Mark 7:21) which is defined by a leading New Testament lexicon as “unlawful sexual intercourse, prostitution, unchastity, fornication, homosexuality” (BDAG). James Edwards states that porneia “can be found in Greek literature with reference to a variety of illicit sexual practices, including adultery, fornication, prostitution, and homosexuality. In the OT it occurs for any sexual practice outside marriage between a man and a woman that is prohibited by the Torah” (The Gospel According to Mark, 213). It’s misleading and erroneous to suggest that Jesus had no discernible opinion on homosexuality or that sexual sin was not an important concern for him.

    Dr. Michael Brown states: “And so, once more, we see the fundamental error of “gay Christianity,” namely, people interpreting the Bible through the lens of their sexuality rather than interpreting their sexuality through the lens of the Bible.” Actually, what Jesus did in such a radical way was to reach out to the worst sinners of His day and change them by His presence and His words rather than affirming them in their sins. I call this “transformational inclusion” as opposed to “affirmational inclusion,” which is not the gospel.”

  • From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matt. 3:1-2

    Jesus went into Galilee and proclaimed the gospel of God. “The time is fulfilled, He said, “and the kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!” Mark 1:14-15

    “And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.” Luke 24:47.

    What book are YOU reading?

  • Grateful for this powerful witness to the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit calling us into all truth — and for hearts and minds like Eugene Peterson who remain open to that call. May his example lead others to break down the walls that divide us and call us all more fully into living lives in alignment with God’s values of love, justice and compassion — and to be agents of healing of the disease of homophobia which infects the human family.

  • If you have ever read EP’s paraphrase “The Message” you know that he re-interpreted the Bible on this issue long before his interview with Merritt.

  • Just out of curiosity, do you believe the Holy Spirit leads us away from the clear teachings of Scripture? And do you believe the Scriptures are misaligned with “God’s values of love, justice, and compassion”?

    And for the record, standing in a 2000 year stream of orthodoxy does not make one homophobic.

  • Conversion Therapy doesn’t exit. It’s a term put on those who serve clients who find same sex attraction an incongruence with their faith from the outside…from those who don’t understand the concept.

  • In your reference to Matthew 7, Jesus tells us not to judge HYPOCRITICALLY. We are to first examine ourselves to make sure we have the right motives (“first remove the plank from your own eye”) before judging. We are to be discerning and loving in pointing out sin, not hateful. But the bible is clear that we are to “…correct, rebuke, and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction.” (2 Tim. 4:2) Yes, God is the ultimate judge of all things, but as His followers, we are to “…judge with a right judgment” (John 7:24) and speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15). Being silent only allows sin to flourish. We shouldn’t judge others as to where their hearts are or what their relationship is with God. However in saying that, Jesus clearly tells us in the bible to call out what is sin (including in the actions of other Christians), and to stand for what God has declared right and wrong (as long as it is done in love and without hypocrisy). You can still love someone and strongly disagree with their actions.

  • Inaccurate statement. Scientists have found epigenetic markers tied to male sexuality. Research it. Also Jass, the understanding of DNA is in an infantile stage.

  • The world needs more people such as yourself Deana , you don’t need me to tell you this . I am surprised that many people speak on behalf of Jesus yet never met the man and it was indeed mankind who correlated and omitted scripture which forms the basis of religion, the Bible ! Women have been intentionally suppressed , Bible states that God made Adam then took one of his ribs and made Eve and thus man declared himself to be the dominant species , such foolishness and yet many believe this tale . As for homosexuality the question should be , is it love or is it lust ! Love is the essential key to life on earth whereas lust is Babylon and we know what happened there .
    God doesn’t interfere with your life , you make the decisions which is free will . If God has to intervene then everyone’s existence is futile , consider earth as a proving ground , many talk the talk yet few walk the walk .

  • Please don’t try to limit God. There is only one unpardonable sin! Christ can change anyone who comes with true repentance. Welcome to the family, Jenelle.

  • Yes, true objective science (not junk science based on assumptions) always confirms the Bible (“For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.” Psalm 139:13-14). And your flat earth example is correct. The bible never says the earth is flat (despite the flat earthers tortured interpretation). Another example is the reference in Genesis to the “fountains of the deep” that sprung forth during the flood. People never took that seriously until a reservoir of water three times the volume of all the oceans was recently discovered deep beneath the Earth’s surface. The water is hidden inside a blue rock called ringwoodite that lies 700 kilometres underground in the mantle, the layer of hot rock between Earth’s surface and its core.

  • Why would God need to change someone for how he made them? It seems that you are the one that is setting limits on God by saying he can only make male and female straight people. I would think he could make people with a vast array differences.

  • Michael, have you ever sinned by eating pork or by touching a pigskin, say, when playing football? (see Leviticus 11:8).

    Have you ever sinned by eating shellfish? (see Leviticus 11:10).

    Have you ever sinned by wearing clothing consisting of two or more kinds of fabric (including polyester)? (see Leviticus 19:19).

    Have you ever sinned by getting a bowl cut, a surfer cut, or a butt cut when having your hair cut? (see Leviticus 19:27).

    Have you ever sinned by getting a tattoo? (see Leviticus 19:28).

    Either you accept all the commandments (“biblical doctrine,” to use your term) or you reject all of them (only a few are listed above), but it is unethical to cherrypick by adhering only to those that support your prejudices and ignore the ones you do not want to obey.

  • Lorraine – Thanks for your inquiry. There isn’t enough space here to explain this, but I will try to briefly.

    1. I know many people who are now married to opp sex, celibacy isn’t the only option.

    2. I believe our Created Image is influenced by being in a fallen world. It is up to us to figure out how those influences have impacted our intended image Created in the Garden of Eden.

    3. These influences can begin in the womb. It is proven that memory starts in the womb…even those memories can impact our Created Identity.

    4. I believe our Created Image is our Identity. Everything else is what we do, feel, think, or desire. I do not believe who I want to sleep with is an identity – it simply shows that our woundedness has impacted a same-sex need or not.

    5. This is a deep core issue and as a Christian I believe that we have an enemy that wants to destroy us and he will use our wounds to do it. He’s already lost to God at the cross, so destroying us is all he has left.

    Thanks again.

  • Science conclusively proved that the Earth was a sphere when sailors realized that the horizon wasn’t the edge of the world, and that was long before the Bible was written.

  • Al que pretende saberlo todo: what empirical evidence do you have that “Rev. Peterson succumbed to the big influence of the gay lobby”?

    In essence, you are claiming that he does not have a mind of his own, that he lacks a backbone, and therefore that he easily gives in to pressure on ethical questions.

    Can you not even conceive of the possibility that he has pondered the relevant questions for a number of years and that of his own accord has come to have an opinion or a stand different from his earlier one?

  • I understand you. I have a neice and a few gay friends. They know I care for them, but not their lifestyle. People think they are doing them a favor by approving such a lifestyle. Why would God destroy whole towns if he didn’t disapprove. I can love them and pray for them, but in the end the choice is theirs alone.

  • Totally unrelated to the subject matter at hand, Tim. Assuming then your dad was Joseph Bayly. I had to jump in and say that he was a brilliant writer. One of my favorites. His, ‘The View from a Hearse’ was timeless.

  • I’ve mentioned some examples of “God’s will” below (set forth in Leviticus) and there are many more. Do you follow all of them?

  • Amazing how questions concerning issues surrounding human sexuality and what two people do in their bedroom or with their bodies draw so much theological and biblical reflection and yet gluttony and avarice, which are everywhere controlling the policies and politics of the human community, there is very little. I am so amazed when there are people with such certitude when it comes to matters of human sexuality and can pull out every quotes having to do with sexual conduct (including the Pauline catalog). I know what my Christian community’s present stance is. No one – absolutely no one – has the temerity at this stage to say “It seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us that . . . ” and no one denomination or congregation has the right to speak in absolutes even though they can quote from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22. Unless of course you see your job as separating sheep and goats or pulling weeds. We are dealing with human beings, with relationships, with families and there is always some degree of ambiguity when our faith meets circumstances in life. Those who are uncomfortable with the grey areas will choose black and white. This is just an observation.

  • You rightly said that Scripture teaches that homosexual behavior is sinful. But it does not condemn homosexual orientation. Brothers and sisters in Christ with same-sex attraction do not sin as long as they remain celibate, just as all unmarried Christians are called to do. God may provide some with opposite-sex attraction in time; He may not. Let’s not forget that. Or that a person with same-sex attraction is still a man or a woman. Transgender is entirely different than gay/lesbian/same-sex attraction.

  • Holly McKahan Hiltz is only stating her feelings, all believers know who has the final say. I would hate to think my total acceptance helped pave someone’s way to hell.

  • You have a serious misunderstanding of the Bible Aron. Your argument is often used but it does not apply. Your “either or” statement about all the commandments is blatantly false. You are using Leviticus in trying to argue a moral equivalence between mixed fabrics, shellfish, etc. and sexual sin. The Levitical laws consisted of moral, ceremonial, civil, and penal laws. The ceremonial and civil laws, which would include your examples, do not apply to us today (for example, the Lord told Peter in the book of Acts that those laws, like the dietary laws, no longer applied). Neither do the penal laws, apply today, that is why we don’t stone people for adultery (Romans 13 says that we now submit to our government which holds the sword and determines crimes and punishments). Those laws you reference were intended to set Israel apart from the surrounding pagan nations in a time when God was establishing a code of conduct in the life of his chosen people. However, on this side of the Cross, the moral laws STILL DO apply to us today (not as a requirement for salvation, but as a moral compass for us to act and behave in a manner God expects of us – what is right and wrong). Homosexuality (and all other sexual sin) falls under that moral law. God’s view of this behavior is consistent throughout scripture, in both Old and New Testaments. The New Testament confirms those moral laws, but does not affirm the ones that you mention, because they no longer apply. In addition, the law was also set in place so that we could realize that no one could keep them. They therefore point to Jesus as savior, the sinless man who was the only person who could fully keep the law. He was the fulfillment of that law and we are no longer condemned under it. However, Jesus said that the MORAL law will never pass away

  • Thank you for this. My favorite thing about Eugene Peterson is his simplicity. No flash, no brands, no large platforms, just a quiet doggedness that I think the Church could use more of. That so many write him off for this one disagreement is alarming, and speaks to why the Church today suffers.

  • “Why would God need to change someone for how he made them?”
    Sin.

    God didn’t make us to sin. We chose that path when we turned against Him. All of us today are in sin… all of us.

    All of us are also equally in need of Christ.

    Part of what Christ calls us to do is to stop our sin. That’s the meaning of ‘repentance’ really: to turn away from sin, and back towards God: “Just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do.” (1 Peter 1:15)

    If there is no ‘change’ in us, then we never really came to Christ.

  • Rev. Peterson’s theological change of heart about homosexual/same-sex behavior are troubling. But that shouldn’t detract from his other contributions to Christendom over the years, such as the Message paraphrase.

  • So what? I am not trying to change your mind. I am writing specifically to those who think they have to choose their sexuality or to follow Jesus. I want them to know that a number of denominations– Episcopalian! Luthersn, Presbyterisn, and my own church, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), to name a few of a growing number– welcome and embrace LGBT people, including into ordained ministry. They do not have to make a choice between following the teachings of Jesus in a community of faith and learning how to express their sexuality in a loving relationship and having and raising a family, or just kill themselves because people like you are acting as THE ultimate authority and interpreter of God’s words. I do this to offer hope, not condemnation, o inform them that your interpretion is just that, not as a spokesman directly commissioned by God.

    So, if you dare, get educated about other denominations’ journeys to welcome. My task is for my brothers and sisters who are LGBT.

  • You just warmed my heart. Thank you-thank you! I miss my Dad. We’ve brought out new editions of a couple of his books. Check them out you-know-where. I’ve always said “View from a Hearse” was his best. Such a comfort! Love,

  • As do I, Eternity matters, and I have great concern regarding the fruit of your heart. I see little Love, joy or peace in your words…..simply judgement, self righteousness and a lack of holy fear regarding your opinions.

  • The word ‘lust’ in Matthew is mistranslated.Jesus is actually quoting the old testament law about not coveting another man’s wife (and the word translated as woman in Matthew should really be translated as wife).

  • I did. Did you ? Where does it say in the old testament lesbianism is a sin ? It doesn’t. About a third of the old testament was written by polygamists, and in Deuteronomy polygamy is even mandated in the case of a brother who leaves a wife as a widow !

  • OMGoodness MAN. You’re response actually makes me fearful for YOU. You’re talking to a person who clearly loves her children and yet you’re being facetious in the name of the Lord…..who incidentally died for all.

  • The earth is described in the book of Job, as are other planetary bodies, which was written long before any recorded history of sea navigation

  • LOL. What a hypocrite — you judging me for judging! And for having no holy fear of approving what God says is sin! And for think you are right while calling others self righteous! Romans 1:32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

    Thanks for another concession speech. I love it when you phonies can’t argue on facts or logic so you jump straight to hypocritical, hateful judging.

    Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?

  • “They loved the praise of men more than the approval of God.”
    84, a time when mental faculties become impaired. Standing for God when you are in the ocean of world filth is difficult. Most of the people who have adopted his stance have been sexually seduced by someone; a child who means more to them than their allegiance to God, or a “friend” or a lover”! All of these weeds choke the life of God out of people who have forgotten their old sins.
    Judgment will follow; separation will occur. The horrible indictment spoken by Jesus is; “depart from Me, I never knew you”.

  • Mirele,

    Although my Discus “handle” is BdgrGrll, my real name is Sue McKeown. God is real and as one of my priests says, “He is craaaazzy in love with you and there’s nothing you can do about it.” One of my favorite Christian authors, Philip Yancey, says, “There’s nothing you can do to make God love you more; there’s nothing you can do to make God love you less.” He and His Son, Jesus Christ, love women as much as they do any man. When Jesus was crucified, He asked one of his Apostles to look after Mary, his grieving mother. Women, whose word didn’t count for jack during Jesus’s day, were the first witnesses to his resurrection. Although He didn’t select any women to be one of his 12 Apostles, women were among the 70 people who traveled with Him during his earthly ministry. They helped finance it and did more than cook and clean for the guys.

    Women have been involved in ministry for 2000 years and continues up to do so today: Christian educators, missionaries (including medical missions), ministers of of music, and some denominations ordain female clergy, serving Christ at home and around the world.

    Taste and see that the Lord is good! He will change your life like He did for me and countless others over the centuries. Love, Sue
    .

  • Great analysis and presentation for all of us who love Scripture. God does not change.

  • Your “born that way” argument is not etablished science. There is absolutely no scientific consensus on that issue. And I know several people who lived a homosexual lifestyle and we’re subsequently transformed through the healing power of Jesus. There are other Christians that struggle with homosexual feelings but choose to follow the Lord and remain celebate. As human beings we are not controlled by our sexual impulses. A man may be attracted to another man’s wife, but he knows adultery is immoral and does not act out on it.

  • Oh dear. You have no idea who I am, how I Love, my absolute need for God, my daily reminder of my need for a saviour.
    I’m not judging you, I’m really concerned for you.
    Your attitude, especially demonstrated in your last response to me, is angry, defensive and if you’re honest with yourself, devoid of love.
    I’m quite sure you won’t be praying lovingly for me tonight, however, I will for you.

  • You are a liar. I quoted scripture vs. Peterson’s abuse of it then you went on your hypocritical judgmental tirade.

    You have no idea what real love is.

    And so funny how you insist that I don’t know you but you pretend to know me! Yes, you are right, I don’t know you. I JUST RESPONDED TO WHAT YOU WROTE AND DIDN’T PRETEND TO KNOW MORE.

    You might try that some time.

    And I pray to the real God that “Christian” Leftists come to know him. Hope He makes you spiritually alive and ends your rebellion against him. Try reading the Bible for what it is — the word of God! – and now what you pretend it is.

  • I won’t confuse you with the facts since you’ve already made up your mind.
    Btw why don’t the orthodox jews still practice polygamy?
    Why had polygamy all but died out by Jesus’ day?

  • Well said. What was your father’s name and is he still living? I recall your last name from way back – ’70s, ’80″s.

  • Hmmm. Is that how you translate that? Examine ourselves to determine if we have the right motives??… Sorry Michael that’s not what Jesus was saying.

    Thou hypocrite.–The man deserves this name,
    because he acts the part of a teacher and reformer, when he himself
    needs repentance and reform the most. The hypocrisy is all the greater
    because it does not know itself to be hypocritical.

  • Polygamy hadn’t died out by Jesus’ day. The historical evidence is that some Jewish sects were still polygamous, some weren’t. Clearly plenty of Old Testament writers were. Are you disputing this ? There is no condemnation of lesbianism in the old testament. You won’t find it because it isn’t there. BTW I’d appreciate it if you didn’t resort to insults. If you think I’m wrong please post something to back up your argument.

  • Oh no Michael Ellis never sins that’s why he’s in a position to point out what he believes are sins of others. 😉

  • That’s Goliath talking. Listen to God instead (1 Cor.10:13). Jesus offers healing & deliverance, not gay slavery.

  • First, Orthodox Presbyterian, then Presbyterian Church (USA), then Presbyterian Church in America until a few years ago when I transferred my credentials into Clearnote Fellowship, a Westminster Standards presbytery that allows exceptions on time and mode of baptism.

  • It may not be an argument from your straight male perspective, but it is from mine. As a 60 year old gay male I can tell you that as far back as I can remember my attraction has been toward other men. That memory goes back to 4 or 5 years old. It was not due to environment or being molested or any other external force. I grew up in rural NC and had no concept of what gay was until I was in middle school and never met a gay person( that I knew of) until my late 20s. I just know how I felt and who I was attracted too. And I it was never a female. I played sports in school and was bmp of my high school team so don’t try to say I must have been a girly type man. I was far from it. As for scientific research I have never had a scientist research me so maybe they need to expand their field.

  • I’m going to sin right now and judge you as being an angry hateful person. Now I’m going to pray for forgiveness. 😉

  • But if she was born a lesbian then it’s not a sin and doesn’t need to be changed. It is man’s blindness that somehow thinks that if she is a heterosexual woman she needs to be changed not God’s. He made her

  • If only we had comment sections in the 1850’s, then we could have heard commenters talk about how scripture, the historical church, and contemporary scholars said that god was fine with slavery.

    If only we had comment sections in the 1950’s, then we could see the same reasoning applied to segregation.

    Praise be for god’s unchanging truth, I guess.

  • Some years ago, Time Magazine ran a cover story that said adultery is genetic. So now I can cheat on my spouse 100 times a week if I want to, because GOD made me an adulterer. I was BORN that way!

    So forget all that bigoted, old-fashioned, adulterer-phobic Bible stuff. You can still call yourself an “evangelical” and such. Just go change you mind the same way Peterson did on that OTHER Bible prohibition !!

  • “She claims to be an ex- lesbian when she is no such thing” … I guess you alone have a window into the souls of men and are an absolute arbiter on truth ??

  • You’re so angry. Why do you think I’m judging you? I’m simply astonished by you’re tone and attitude.
    By all means pray for me, I welcome it. I do actually know the Lord, so I would appreciate it if you could pray for his will to be done in my life. I’ll pray the same for you.
    Many thanks.

  • What I find as the core issue at stake is not what Scripture does or does not say about about sexuality, but how the Church approaches biblical hermeneutics where Scripture intersects with historically troublesome issues. There are many ways in which christian theology has taken detours for good or ill. Are we now a people who: condemn slavery? have women pastors and priests? worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? see the sacraments as symbols instead of mysteries? condemn polygamy? and of course, who find homosexuality to be a non-issue?

    I have really been struggling lately with not just how can we know what’s right, but how we can choose and still remain a people rooted in Christ’s love and generosity. If you find acceptance of homosexuality to be wrong, can the practicing homosexual attend your church? If so, what about teaching in your children’s Sunday school? What about teaching in adult Sunday school? What would preclude such participation for them? If a heterosexual person in your congregation has a high level position at Monsanto, or is an aide to the President (pick one from the political party you hate the most), or works at Planned Parenthood, Philip-Morris, Mylan, can he or she still teach in your church? When does someone’s current sin preclude them from participation as a person in the people of God? And that’s a much easier question to answer than “Which sins?” … let alone, “Which ones are sins?”

    I realize you have your understandings, and I am tempted to disagree with them as much as another commentator’s desire to redefine Jesus’ use of the world “lust” to justify his pro-homosexual position. The more I go round after round with this, the more I am beginning to suspect that the Lord is not as convinced with sola scriptura (nor it’s historical opposition) as so many of us are.

  • “He must be succumbing to societal pressure to redefine biblical doctrine.” No, he already did that when he wrote the Message “bible.” Make no mistake, it is NOT a bible translation, but one liberal’s corruption of the divinely-inspired word of God. Translating the original manuscripts, detail by detail, is a noble thing if it is done responsibly, which normally takes many hours by multitudes of very knowledgeable people who have to answer to Christ, so they take it VERY seriously. This is done, so that unsaved sinners can get saved. Summing things up irresponsibly, like Peterson did, is devilish. May the Lord have mercy on him when he stands before Christ to give an account of his life, including mishandling the word of God, for we must all stand before Christ to do so.

  • You’re judgmental Jo Antovoni. First take the plank out of your own eye.
    LOL, folks who bring the word “judgmental” into a conversation are usually the most judgmental.
    What is Michael’s “plank,” Jo?
    He speaks against sin, just like Jesus & his apostles do.

  • Yes it is a sin. One of the many that Christ died to save us from. As I understand the role of the Church it is to take up the cross and offer Christ’s salvation to all sinners. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, the wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. I sin. I don’t march in parades to celebrate my sin or try to claim that my sin does not exist. Nevertheless the remedy for homosexuality is every bit as effective as the remedy for my sin. It is the task of the church to apply that remedy to all who will accept it. Our challenge is not to condemn the sinner but to rescue him. Satan has twisted our culture today to make that challenge a very difficult one, but not one for us to abandon.

  • Yes, that is how I translate it. That is also how the historical church has universally translated it, as well as the vast majority of modern evangelical bible scholars and theologians. In fact, there is not a credible alternate translation available. I’m afraid you are in your own minority and are redefining it to suite your own views.

  • Mi Querid Senor Sasportas, “Sabelotodo2” es nada nas un chiste que hago para hacer buen humor de mi mismo, y de la idea estupida que pueda existir una persona–de ellos bien sabios que se responden a los articulos buenos de Slingshot, que piensa que de veras, saben TODO!

    Yo supongo que Ud. de veras piense que es tal persona, y habla con tanta certidumbre acerca de las ideas de Rev. Peterson, es porque Ud. siempre vive dentro del cerebro de el, y por su buena residencia alla, puede presentarnos la verdad de todos los asuntos relevantes por tantos anos! Ademas, Ud. puede escribirnos de la voluntad de Rev. Peterson, de la voluntad de el y su abilidad de formular y formar una opinion nueva, y las posicciones que no ha tomado en antes!

    Que hombre tan magnificiente! Que hombre mas ESTUPIDO tambien!

    My free translation for non-Spanish speakers:

    My Dear Man;

    The name I give myself of “Sabelotodo2,” (Know-it-all too!) is just my funny little way of poking fun at the stupid idea that there could ever BE be such a person–among the wise responders to the articles here on Slingshot–who, indeed, could ever have the absurd idea that they KNOW IT ALL!

    i suppose the real reason you might think that you ARE such a person–speaking with such certainty about the ideas and beliefs of Rev. Peterson–is that you live there in his mind, and this great residence reveals to us the truth about all the critically important matters he’s pondered for so many years! That’s why you write for us so confidently here, about Rev. Peterson’s mind and his ability to have the opinions he has, and take stands he’s never yet taken!

    What a magnificent guy! What a STUPID one, too!

  • There is a difference between my use of the word everything and LynnW use of the word ‘many’. I overstated.

  • This is an interesting discussion. I would like to hear from more Christians and fewer Bible-worshipers though. It seems to me that Peterson shows tremendous respect for the authority of the Word, but bases his views on the spirit of Jesus. (Rom. 8:9)

  • If we followed our desires in everything we would have a world in anarchy. Just because one has a desire does not define who they are. Paul said in Romans “why do I do the things I dont want to do and not do the very things I want?”

    Its called the depravity of man. Would it be wrong for me to have sex with every beautiful woman I see? Not according to your reasoning! (Because God made me that way)

    There are many desires that every person has and they choose what is right because that is what they should do to honor God with your body.

  • He gives no biblical reason to think ssm is ok. He just says “it’s no big deal”.
    I’m not persuaded by that. But then he’s not trying to persuade anyone really, is he? He’s not bothered.
    I think he’s lost any concept of absolute truth.

  • I just don’t have time to list all of the scriptures that teach disciples to love. I invite you to Google them.

  • Of course there are many such scriptures. But that is not the core of the gospel message. The gospel is not about our love but God’s love in making a way for us to be reconciled to Him.

  • What a stupid ridiculous argument. You want to equate being gay and the desire for gay men to have male relationships to your desire to have sex with every beautiful woman you see. That is an apple and oranges argument. How by equating my desire to have a male companion for my husband to your desire to have a female companion as your wife. That is an equal comparison. By the way Paul who you folks love to quote so very often is thought by many religious authorities, that have studied the bible and other historical documents, to have been gay.

  • I’m not sure what surprises me more: treachery from yet another evangelical “leader” or the fact that people are surprised by it.

  • Wow you have been brainwashed to the nth degree. Hopefully when the end of your days come you won’t be haunted by the fact that you lived your whole life in vain by not being the person that God made you to be because someone convinced you that you were a bad person for being who you were born to be.

  • How can he not know that homosexuality is an abomination to God? God is the Creator of life. There is no life in that kind of relationship. It is Satan’s plan to destroy humans who are made in God’s image. It is a lie from hell and many people are being deceived, including Mr. Peterson. I have The Message and like reading it, but this makes me have second thoughts about it.

  • I’ve actually thought about it quite a bit. Seriously, if I were to get into a heaven with Bayly’s “god”, I couldn’t keep my mouth shut for very long. That “god” would do something I consider awful (and yes, roasting people for eternity is quite awful), and I’d say something, and *zip*, I’d be a flaming torch to the glory of Bayly’s “god” for all eternity. In short, Bayly’s “god” can’t be trusted. — Deana M. Holmes

  • Floyd, I don’t even agree with you. If Peterson messed up, it was coming out now, retired, rather than while he was working and active.

  • You, Sir, are wrong. You are not born gay. It is a spiritual condition. I personally have an EX lesbian friend. She is a strong Christian and married for many years to a man. People can and do change!

  • If it means being with a “god” like yours, why yes, I’m dead serious. See, I couldn’t be in a beautiful heaven if I knew in my heart of hearts that someone, somewhere was being tortured in eternal flame because they did something to offend this god or worse (Calvinism) was born simply to be destined forever to burn in hell. Your “god” would have to remove that from me, and then I wouldn’t be *me*.

    There’s a story by Ursula K. LeGuin called “The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.” Read it and then think about your perfect heaven with that smidge of hell just intruding, just barely on the edge of your mind forever. Could you live forever knowing that someone else is being tortured?

  • And you Mame are wrong! As a gay man I can assure you of that. It is easy to be married to an opposite sex partner but it doesn’t change who you are. I was married and have children, but I was NEVER happy with myself because I was not being who I was born to be. You may have a so called EX lesbian friend married to a man and a Christian, but you can rest assured she is still a lesbian.

  • Jenelle, I really appreciate your post. Yes Jesus can free us from all bondage. All sexual attractions are same, whether it is man to man or man to women. But we are told in Bible to explore sex only in the context of marriage. Hence from the age we start feeling sexual temptations, we are expected to control them. For me it was as early as 12. But I had to wait till I was 28 to get married to have a God ordained experience. Same with any sexual orientation, it has to be done in a God ordained way. If God has ordained marriage between male and female then so it should be. Every other desire should be controlled. I do not believe people are born gays.

  • Jerry, no one need to brainwash or convince a person of Sin. We all have conscience that will convict us. You too have it. YOU have learnt to harden your conscience beyound the point of hearing it. There is still hope if you cry out to God to give you a new heart and a tender conscience.
    I grew up in a Hindu home, I had no understanding of Sin. Still I knew my deeds were evil. When I first read the Bible at the age of 25, I fell on my face confessing all my sins and accepting Christ. Our conscience is not driven by what people tell, it is a program that God has put inside us. You tooo know that your deeds are evil. You just learnt to lie to your conscience.
    The reason there are so many gay pride walks held is because Gays know that their lifestyle is evil and their own conscience tells them that. They just search for acceptance from outside, to sooth themselves. You too here to search some acceptance because your own conscience will not accept your life style. I feel sorry for you. If you have ever been honest you will accept with me. But it is hard to expect honesty from a person like you who has stopped listening to his conscience.

  • Read Acts 15 about the Jerusalem Council. These questions were asked and answered by Torah-observant Jewish Christians 2000 years ago.

  • We are all former present and future sinners. The difference is some of us have been forgiven and changed by God’s grace.

  • “Everyone is impacted by developmental woundedness differently.” – Well said. A survey done shows that almost all Gays had a wonded past like molestation or a past in which they did not get love from same sex. Children raised by single parents have higher tendency to be gays because they do not receive love from other sex. It is all because we live in a fallen sin cursed earth.
    I too had some sexual behaviors that were very abnormal which I can associate from my childhood wounds.

  • God isn’t like that. Some of His “followers” portray Him to be that way, but in reality He is not.

  • Vast majority? I’d like to see evidence of that statement.

    The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
    9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

    13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

    14 “I tell you that this man, ratherthan the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

    Michael I am the tax collector. Which one are you?

  • The reason there are so many gay pride walks held is because Gays know that their lifestyle is evil and their own conscience tells them that. They just search for acceptance from outside, to sooth themselves.”

    This, 100%. Where one is secure in the rightness of one’s choices, no affirmation is necessary. Where one is not, no affirmation will ever be enough.

  • This is not unexpected as the day of the Lord approaches. The goats are being separated from the sheep, and it will become worse as it has been foretold.

  • I didn’t need Time Magazine to tell me that. I’ve heard lots of guys claim that they “just weren’t meant to be monogamous.” It’s just as easy to square that with the Bible as same sex activity.

  • Those that interpreted the Bible to support slavery were taking scripture out of context and using it for their own purposes (again, the historical church never condoned the type of slavery that took place in 19th Century England or America). The “slavery” in the Bible was not forced – they were bond servants and indentured slaves who took on a contract for service with “the master” in exchange for food, shelter and a term of employment or to learn a skill so that at the completion of service a man could provide for a family. Household slaves were often beloved and treated as family members and spoke with the authority of the Master of the house. Prisoners of War and criminals were also another morally valid form of slavery to pay back for war crimes to societies they damaged and killed or for crimes committed against the state/populace. People were not bond servants because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. Or even criminals became slaves to repay their debts.
    In addition, both the Old and New Testaments CONDEMNED the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century, as a capital crime, which is punishable by death.
    “And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.”
    Exodus 21.16

  • Leviticus was written 1000 years after Moses and most people were illiterate, there were no men’s rooms and women’s rooms or toilet paper and no one believed germs existed because they could not be seen with the human eyes God created. Keep in mind you could be put to death for many thing we do everyday today ( mixing crops, eating shellfish or pork, not eating kosher, etc) and homosexuality was translated into the english thousands of years AD. In addition the father of all sins is “superbia” thinking God values you more then someone else who is different from you ie LGBTQ, Different in religious beliefs etc. Be careful judging others as you will also be judged. See Genesis: “So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.” Them ?? Was God then transgender??

  • Fundamentalists having a godlike worship for Donald Trump, “overlooking” his blantant sexism, misogyny, egotism, and lack of fitness for the position of President, all for their interpretation of his promise to “make America great again,” which in their mind, means turning America into a fundamentalist, dominionist, racist, sexist theocracy.

  • Save the sermon. Unlike you i was raised in the christian southern baptist church. So i was indoctrinated in it early until I saw all the hypocrisy it entailed. I was even the head deacon of my churches board of deacons at one point so don’t try to lecture me what I know and don’t know about Christianity. Fortunately I broke away before the brainwashing took full control so don’t worry there is still hope for you yet.

  • “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11

    We are all created by God and bear his image. We reflect his glory in our highest acts of righteousness, compassion, and mercy, but sin has marred that image and alienated us from God, from others, and ourselves. It has corrupted our nature so that we are constantly inclined toward selfishness and evil.

    God did not create us this way…This is the result of a fallen nature in rebellion against God.

    “And this is what some of you used to be…”

    Clearly Paul is stating that the previous proclivities to sin are not permanent and the heart can be transformed in Jesus Christ. Sin enslaves but Jesus frees us to be who God originally created us to be.

    In Christ we are forgiven, we are redeemed, and made holy, and we stand acceptable in God’s sight as new beings.

  • Re: the charge of taking Scripture out of context for the purpose of supporting slavery

    This is the same accusation that those want to support women’s leadership, acceptance of homosexuality, and so on will argue. All such arguments come in a variety of flavors and depths. If there was a singular, verifiable correctness for any of this, there would be only one congregation of Christians in this world. All of it is human reasoning on top of the sacred. The endeavor would appear hopeless.

  • You as one who claims to have been a part of the LGBT community at one point should be ashamed of yourself for being a part of exodus international. You can say it is not involved in conversion therapy all you want and you may convince some of these sheep that it was not, but you are dead wrong! I hope you can live with the thought and memory of all the damage that you caused so many young people that were many times forced to go through this program have had to suffer through and still suffer through. Why do you think they died? People became aware of what they were doing and the damage it was doing! Shame on You!

  • Tell me what that passage has to do with your reference to Matthew 7 where Jesus says we are not to judge hypocritically? And what does that have to do with us all being sinners in need of repentance? Even Paul, who boldly called out sinful behavior, said he was the worst of sinners. Where did I say that I was not a sinner, as you seem to assume from using this verse? We are all sinners Jo. How is it hypocritical to care for people enough to communicate the love of Jesus and His desire for us that we serve Him and lead lives according to His standard and plan, and to be free from the bondage of sin? He calls us to repentance and seeks to bless us. He has commanded his followers to preach His Gospel to ALL nations, and to make disciples and teach them to obey. Repentance, forgiveness, redemption, and change of behavior are all central to the Gospel message.

  • “Likewise, Jesus condemned the sin of porneia (Mark 7:21) ”

    Sorry, Michael, I think you mean Mark condemned…

  • I’m not saying you haven’t thought about it. I’m sure you have. That’s why I said you only think that’s what you’d rather do. You’re principled in your misconceptions, I’ll give you that, but if the Christian concept of hell is accurate, you will experience unrelenting regret.

  • There is no absolute truth. And certainly one cannot determine absolute truth for another. MYOB.

  • Well, actually, yes, most research seems to indicate that this is something that is hardwired in the brain, in most cases–which is why most respected conservative seminaries, such as Gordon Conwell, say that “reverse sexuality” clinics are simply not to be recommended, while advising celibacy…..

  • If the bible is so clear and the threat of eternal damnation so strong, why are there so many gay christians?

  • There was no need for him to elongate his answer, he should of said-I take the Biblical view-which is NO, end of conversation

  • The contrast here is fairly clear: One side sees the verses (which are not many) against homosexual behavior as a spiritual issue, one which remains the same throughout history; the other side sees the question of homosexual marriage as a matter of cultural interpretation, such as women wearing hats in church, which was once an almost universal requirement, and is no longer seen as such. Now, I have heard both sides argued well by scholars at conservative colleges and seminaries; and my conclusion is, regardless of which side you line up on, you must respect the other.

  • …ah, but if you were an adulterer, you would not be stoned today as you would have likely been in Christ’s time. The question becomes, why do so many Christians insist on veritably stoning homosexuals with accusations and very un-Christ like condemnation? While Jerry may not know the heart of Jenelle, you hold her up as a paragon of redemption, of which, by your very logic, you have no direct knowledge. I do think that’s the realization that Eugene Peterson has come to as he continues his journey with God and us…

  • My experience is that if your life is Hell it is not because of how you were born, but of some poor life choices. I lived the masquerade of a straight family man and was in he’ll. That was not because I was born a gay man. It was because I chose to try to live a life that I was not born to live. Now I am out and married to my husband and am truly happy for the first time ever. Maybe you were never a lesbian to begin with.

  • I don’t think you can verify that “most” studies say that. There are some that draw those conclusions. There are other studies, like the one Jenelle mentioned – that out of 33,000 twin studies there was no evidence of a same sex attraction genetic marker. My point is that there is NO scientific consensus yet, so you can’t make a definitive argument supporting the “born that way” narrative. And as Jenelle also said, there are effective ministries that are not conversion therapy.

  • Tom, there are no “original manuscripts”. Every translation is from a copy. The originals of any Bible book are not extant.

  • I remember seeing his name on a number of IVP books back in the day. Yes? I am glad to see his son is serving the Lord and “not ashamed of the Gospel.” God bless you and your family.

  • I am sad.

    I genuinely liked his book “The Contemplative Pastor” which I read during my college years many moons ago when I was preparing for the ministry. I felt a grounding there within what he wrote about retaking back what it means to be a Christian pastor from the dregs of culture .. one of those three elements was what he called being an “apocalyptic pastor,” and in his gripping discussion on grappling with “the intricacies of the messy human condition,” I guess I never imagined that his dealing with those could undermine what he once so well put in stark perspective:

    “(The) Apocalypse (the book of Revelation) convinces us we are in a desperate situation and in it together. The grass is not greener in the next committee, or parish, or state. All that matters is worshipping God, dealing with evil and developing faithfulness.” (p. 57)

    To a young minister already all too skeptical after his painful dealings with abusive church and authoritarian Christendom, trying to get bearings from those I was told are elder statesmen of the faith, this sounded truly inspiring.

    It now is simply saddening, so tragic, so painful to see a Christian fail. I hope none of you are patting yourselves on the back for not being Like Him. Putting this book out of my scant library of mentoring books is perhaps the best. But seeing a far off and assumed friend become an enemy to righteousness and watching him reckon his laid back antagonism to holiness as no big deal makes me ill.

    Back to A.W. Tozer I guess .. when I do read to be “inspired” .. Scripture and the Spirit are in the end enough.

  • My comment had less to do with the arguing some historical precedent and more to do with pointing out that during those times I mentioned, you would’ve had numerous Christians arguing vociferously that all those things are on their side as they argued for the god ordained, unchanging truth that god condones slavery, supports segregation, etc. They would’ve posted nearly the exact sentiments in your comment except for the context being “slavery” and changing a few verses.

    They would’ve spoke with the same conviction that you have expressed that *they* know that’s what god wants.

    But, as you pointed out in your previous comment, they were wrong. They were absolutely, completely wrong. In 50 years, Christians may very well look back on the types of comments you’ve made here and use them as an example of how wrong the people of 2017 were.

    Then (much like the the explanations that followed regarding slavery), an apologetic will be built up to try to explain why the bible left out acceptance of LGBT persons, but that acceptance of them is what the Bible meant all along. It’s funny how the thought of what god believes is right seems to be changing and developing as mans views of what is right are changing.

    But then, in 2067, there will be yet another group to rail about and for people to say they KNOW that god would condemn these people. On and on it goes. The bible serves as an amazing Rorschach test for the people who read it.

    As a side note, god omitting to flat out condemn slavery (particularly since he should’ve been aware of the suffering of millions under slavery and the use of the bible to justify it) is one of the great arguments for disregarding the bible completely. One clear statement is all that was needed. But it’s not there.

    That’s a remarkable and essentially cruel oversight.

    (Michael Ellis, just so you know, I’m not meaning to pick on you here. My comments would be an appropriate counter-response to many of the posts in this section.)

  • “No condemnation of lesbianism.”
    Condemnation of sexual sin tho. The biblical pattern is found in Gen. 2 – male and female – and continues right straight thru the NT all the way thru church history. You know that.
    Nowhere in the text of scripture is sex permitted outside of marriage and marriage is always defined as between man and woman. And you know that too.
    As far as polygamy is concerned Jesus never explicitly said it was wrong. So by your logic we should allow it. Yes?
    Now Paul condemned same sex sexual conduct in Rom. 1. You know that text I’m sure. Paul was called by the Lord to be His apostle so Paul can definitively interpret the Bible. In fact Paul is the chief interpreter of the words of Jesus. I think it strains credulity to think that the Law, the Prophets, the Apostles and the rest of the writers of the NT along with historic Judaism got it wrong for the past 3000+ years. But I don’t think my telling you this will change your mind. And sorry for the previous insult.

  • Amen brother. God said in Josh. 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth but thou shalt meditate therein day and night that thou mayest do according to all that is written therein…
    God’s word stands forever. It will never fail. Men will but God’s word-Never.

  • Thanks for another concession speech! You all are the gifts that keep on giving. You have NO biblical or logical arguments to support your case, just a love for the world and a hatred of us who speak the truth.

  • The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Bible-believing Christians and even two out of the three types of pro-gay people* (religious or not) can see these truths:

    – 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior describe it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
    – 100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
    – 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
    – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions of any kind. There are no exceptions for “committed” relationships.
    – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to LGBT couples parenting children.

    Having said that, I believe that Christians should support and encourage those who are fighting same-sex attraction. And no one needs to grandstand on the issue before getting to the Good News of the cross: http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/evangelism-experiences-1/ .

    * The three general types of pro-gay theology people:

    1. “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong but it isn’t the word of God.” (Obviously non-Christians)
    2. “The Bible says it is wrong but God changed his mind and is only telling the theological Left.” (Only about 10 things wrong with that.)
    3. “The Bible is the word of God but you are just misunderstanding it” (Uh, no, not really.)

  • http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/problems-with-pro-gay-theology-2/ The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Bible-believing Christians and even two out of the three types of pro-gay people* (religious or not) can see these truths:

    – 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior describe it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
    – 100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
    – 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
    – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions of any kind. There are no exceptions for “committed” relationships.
    – 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to LGBT couples parenting children.

    Having said that, I believe that Christians should support and encourage those who are fighting same-sex attraction. And no one needs to grandstand on the issue before getting to the Good News of the cross: http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/evangelism-experiences-1/ .

    * The three general types of pro-gay theology people:

    1. “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong but it isn’t the word of God.” (Obviously non-Christians)
    2. “The Bible says it is wrong but God changed his mind and is only telling the theological Left.” (Only about 10 things wrong with that.)
    3. “The Bible is the word of God but you are just misunderstanding it” (Uh, no, not really.)

  • Agreed. And even if there was a genetic predisposition God’s word forbids it. Native Americans struggle with alcoholism and are said to have a genetic predisposition to it but we don’t condone it. Many emotional disorders are genetically based but we don’t condone crazy behavior.

  • Male and female are different facets of the image of God. His nature encompasses both the masculine and the feminine.

  • I would gladly offer you the same tolerance and affirmation that you request if you also offered that to those who were in exodus international. If you offered it i can assure you that you were in the minority that did within that group. So I guess you were a lesbian until you were 20 years old correct?

  • Blindly clinging to tradition? Please give us a reasonable interpretation of those key texts in scripture which you say Jews and Christians have been misinterpreting for the past 3500+ years.

  • Blessings, Tyshawn, I encourage you to learn about the science of contextual criticism. This shows that even without the originals in possession that the specific divinely-inspired words are close. The Dead Sea scrolls is an excellent example of this. But, of course, what Eugene did should never have been done.

    Revelation 22:18-19 – I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this prophetic book, God will take away his share of the tree of life and the holy city, written in this book.

  • Hi Debbie Dennison? Hard to call someone else on B.S. when you try to B.S. others using a fake account. Try again when you aren’t ashamed of who you are.

  • Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it. What is right is right even if no one is doing it.

  • Thank you for confirming what I suspected. You were not a lesbian but just a confused straight woman that experimented in the lesbian community. If you had been a true lesbian you would have said I was lesbian for 40 years as almost all gay people will tell you they have been gay since birth! You are just a confused woman who found self importance through an organization that was more than willing to make you a token poster child. You ask why I am so passionate. It is because I am fighting for the dignity and equality of ALL members of the LGBT community and not just concerned about myself.

  • “Veritably” = “not really.” Nobody is stoning homosexuals any more than they are stoning adulterers. Both activities, however, are scripturally condemned; there is no getting around that .

  • LOL. Whew i sure that eased everyones mind. Totally convinced now that YOU said so. Your not fake but then have nerve enough to accuse someone else behind the guise of a faceless phony profile. A for effort. F for realness

  • What about Romans 1. This chapter speaks of this. Why men changed their natural use from woman to men and women the same. Who changed the glory of God to man. God condemned this:

    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
    24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

    What about the minister who wrote the book, The Return of the Prodigal Son, Henri J. M. Nouwen. He had/has inclination toward the same sex but never fulfilled that desire. Very unsettling, this is not right.

  • You can usually find those “transformed’ in the local gym sauna cruising for some action.

  • Maybe god dose not want to change gay people, because he sees nothing wrong with them.

  • Fixed that for ya Mr. Jerry Hinnant. Picture, legal name change since creating this account, and my location. Nothing to hide, no shame here. I still think you’re spouting off a whole lot of BS.

  • The only hope for Western society is to make sodomy a capital crime, as was prescribed by the Law of Moses and as was the norm in Western Christendom until fairly modern times. The confusion resulting from the institutional acceptance of this perversion is destroying the family and the institution of marriage on which it is founded.

  • What YOU think is really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Legal name change lol. Ok lol

  • Glad the bigot is not afraid to show her true self. Very Christian, the select love for your neighbors.

  • Very exclusive family, accepting of some but not of everyone. Jesus couldn’t agree more.

  • God made everyone the way they are, gay or straight or all the way in between. To renounce who you are to try to fit in a religious sect that doesn’t convey the basic message of Christ to love your neighbor is sinful. Most Bible scholars, actual academics, not religious fanatics and cultists, agree that homosexuality is not a sin. In fact, that word is not in the Bible.

  • The modern game of religion, pick and choose your prohibitions, whatever happened to the meaning of metaphor.

  • Do you think most people that are gay have a desire to be gay? Most kill themselves because they are not accepted and/or loved for who they are. It goes beyond desire. If we could most people would choose to be white heterosexual males. Imagine being gay and black for example… You are naive thinking that this is desire.

  • I’m sure your “experience with gay friends” will trump the plainly expressed judgments of God.

  • That absence of caving on abortion means evangelical leadership isn’t caving on LGBT issues.

    One does not entail the other.

  • You judge them, but all they do is sin differently than you. Love them as they are and know that you are following Jesus: “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

  • Aaron is right. To mock a person when they share out of sensitive areas is cruel. Jerry, are you willing to mock what God has done in Jenelle’s life??? I know several Christian men and women who have lived a gay lifestyle in the past and choose to no longer live as such because they love Jesus more than they love themselves. I also know a Christian heterosexual man with six extra-marital affairs under his belt who gave up his sin for the very same reason.

  • There are many who are willing to live in self-denial sexually rather than sin against the God they love. That goes not just for homosexual acts, but for every weird thing we are each and every one of us “born” with.

  • Jerry, thank you for sharing out of your own struggle and experience. I know people like yourself for whom same-sex attraction has been with them since childhood and for whatever reason, the attraction does not go away, though they’ve found alternative ways to channel their attractions and they are determined to obey Christ. Just because a person is straight doesn’t mean they can’t understand some of what you’ve struggled with, though it might be in a different area sexually. Not one of us is fully whole sexually.

  • And yet, Janelle claims that she is a “former lesbian.” Shall we argue with what Christ has done in a person because it doesn’t fit our rigid world view or politically correct paradigm? One person is healed of cancer through prayer and another dies of the disease. Does the one negate the other? There are bunches of things I’d do if I didn’t love God just a little bit more than I love myself, believe me.

  • i don’t think accepting the LGBT community is based on whether they are as spiritual as other Christians. And i don’t think whatever the Bible says is relevant on this issue, no matter how it is interpreted. It is a 2000 year old cultural, non-scientific belief. The culture of the time also supported slavery and women as property. Or what about killing kids if they rebel against their parents and all the other crazy reasons that justified stoning. If you use the Bible to condemn LGBT people you have to take all the other stuff seriously that we have long discontinued.

  • To judge in the biblical sense is to assume you know someone’s motives. Michael is stating what 2000 years of biblical and church doctrine has always stated about human sexuality. It has nothing to do with believing he is judge over someone else’s motives.

  • Jerry, I don’t doubt you had a rough go of it in one of those southern churches of a certain era. Sheesh, what gives in those places? But because your flawed experience in the church augmented your weakness doesn’t mean Christianity itself is a religion of hypocrisy. We who represent Christ are full of flaws and let him down continually, as you have ample experience to point out. But truth is still truth, and God is working with us all where we are at. I don’t think it has to be so complicated.

  • No one is suggesting he or she is better than someone else. This is simply a discussion about the standards a Christian is expected to accept. If I don’t want to accept those standards, I am free not to. But that doesn’t mean my own wisdom is preferable to God’s.

  • He lost me at calling Eugene Peterson “a paragon of the Christian faith”. The fact that this man wrote “The Message” speaks volumes as to how much he does NOT understand about the Christian faith.

  • Did you not my comment? I propose to re-institute biblical law in Christemdom, as we had for 1500 years from Theodosius I in the 4th century til the Enlightenment.

  • Thank you for smacking in the face my entire testimony story Mr Peterson.

    Homosexuality wasn’t used in the Bible becasue until Frued no humans had ever identified people at their core as sexual beings. It was never considered a marker of identity, which is why early translations referred to the act instead of the label.

    Your disservice to those who struggle and carry their crosses daily to honor Jesus is sad but will not hinder our ministries.

  • Go !! #Taiwan !! 請支持 #婚姻平權 ..^_________^
    #LGBT #LGBTQ #LGBTQIA #Lesbian #Gay #Bisexual #Transgender #intersexual #asexual #同志 #女同性戀 #男同性戀 #雙性戀 #跨性別 #雙性人 #無性戀

  • I don’t know why it says “Just Tired” but oh well. The name is Ben. Lots of interesting points on both sides. But 2 points here.

    1. If I’m in bed and the house were on fire, would I want someone to come in and wake me up and tell me of my destruction if I don’t leave that situation? 2. The Bible talks about those who won’t make it into heaven:

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Modern English Version
    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
    Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor
    adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such
    were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, and you
    were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of our God.

    The point is, there will be a lot of people who will not make it. But, LGBT members as well as drug users, murderers, thieves and so on can be changed by the blood of Jesus Christ. That’s all. Just remember God loves you and desires to be your friend. One that is closer than a brother. I’m not giving some big sermon filled with thou shalt nots, and Jesus said this or that. What’s the point? Most will turn it off or dismiss it with a “pithy comment” or even be insulting. But please, consider the above scripture passage.
    Remember, God loves you, and so do I
    Ben

  • There are those who are genetically predisposed to have homosexual attraction, and live a homosexual lifestyle.

    There are those who are genetically predisposed to have homosexual attraction, yet live a heterosexual lifestyle.

    There are those who are genetically predisposed to have heterosexual attraction, and live a heterosexual lifestyle.

    There are those who are genetically predisposed to have heterosexual attraction, yet live a homosexual lifestyle.

    The real wold is complicated. I know of many people who have successfully converted from homosexual to heterosexual. I know of many people who have tried, but failed.

    We’re all different.

    Whether or a certain lifestyle is immoral or moral is another question entirely. No person can make something moral or immoral. We can have opinions and preferences, but only God is able to call something sin. Just because something is/feels “natural”, doesn’t make it moral. Just because something is/feels “unnatural”, doesn’t make it immoral.

  • By definition only males can commit “sodomy”. So would that mean under such laws female homosexual activity would go unpunished?

    More seriously, it doesn’t take enough common sense to fit on the head of a pin to come up with many better ways to strengthen marriage and family life than that suggestion.

    Ain’t gonna fly here. We don’t have a theocracy here — thank God!

  • Jerry have you not read Scripture? What has God spoken about sexuality? Our most pellucid example of His Desire (notice “His,”) about sexuality can be found in the account of the Exodus! Israel enslaved previously for 400 years as foretold by God to Abram, was brought out with a Mighty Hand and Outstretched Arm of God by many signs and wonders through His servant Moses! The word exodus has the prefix ‘ex,’ which means ‘to go out; from.’

    Within this 40year peregrination they were given 3 types of laws…the Moral Law otherwise known as the Decalogue or Ten Commandments, The Ceremonial Law, and the Civil Law. And what purpose were they for? Look nowhere other than the place they had been for 400 years.

    Egyptians were polygamists, promiscuous heterosexually and homosexually, they worshipped cats, dogs, snakes and other animals and also worshipped the sun and the moon AND Pharaoh who thought he himself was the incarnate of the sun god Re.

    From the cultural context then, it is perspicuous that these laws were given to Israel to wash Egypt out of them and to reform them into the Image of God; the way God designed for them to live and in this process they would come to know God, His Attributes, Nature and Character. In short what He is like, what He likes and doesn’t like, How to approach Him (ceremonial laws) they would also come to know His desire and purposes for their lives. They learned Who is God, what is man and what is creation and their relationship to each other!

    In Leviticus 18 which explains the laws of sexual morality is says in verse 22,” You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination.” This is The LORD speaking to Moses these words of verse 18. Not Moses.

    So in contrary to your statement about limiting God, God has limited Himself by making a statement on sexual morality that same sex relations is immoral and an abomination. The Scriptures will go on to tell us God is Immutable, He cannot change. Hebrews 6 states He cannot lie. But humans can.

    You have pontificated without any sound reason or Scripture to back your presuppositions about God and have disparaged those who have been delivered from the life they lived that was against nature(Romans chapter 1:26-27).

    You have made up a god and not The Most High God of Holy Scripture!
    The Lord has delivered me of self gratification and looking at pornography…by your reasoning He created me this way…RUBBISH!!!

    Read Romans Chapter!! Praying you come to know The Truth.

  • Dear Jerry, don’t deceive yourself thinking and saying that God created also homosexual people!
    God is telling us VERY clear that he created Adam first, and then a WOMAN (NOT another man), for him to form a pair/family.
    What is so dificult to understand?
    And, later… so many times (when can see that Satan intervened and changed the normal relationships between the man and a woman), He made clear (see the Sodoma and Gomorrah example), that this unnatural relationships between people are bad in His eyes!
    There is no doubt about it!
    That fact that you were maried and also able to have children and still felt the attraction to other men doesn’t change anything in the way God created the world!
    As someone else also said, there are also other IRRESISTIBLE attractions, like alcoholism and murder etc, that other people are facing (and doing), wich are also sins in God’s eyes!

  • SIDE NOTE.. DO TO COMMENTS BELOW ! LEANINGS TOWARDS ANY SIN..FROM BIRTH(LOL).. I MEAN SINCE CAN REMEMBER.. DOES NOT GIVE YOU A LICENSE TO COMMIT THAT SIN AND DEFINE YOUR IDENTITY FROM IT ! SICK (GENDER IS REAL)

  • I am aware of Acts 15 and of the Council of Jerusalem. If you believe that God gave the Pentateuch to Moses on Mount Sinai (“the True Word of God”), you must also believe that the participants in the Council of Jerusalem had no right to change a jot or tittle of Holy Scripture (Matthew 5:18).

  • This is a definitive, historical, exegetical study that refutes modern revisionist ideas. Joe Dallas (former ‘gay christian’ and Dr. Michael Brown also write compassionately and cogently on this subject. Peterson is simply wrong biblically on this issue.

  • They didn’t — for themselves. But the Torah was not given to Gentiles. No one had ever cared how much shrimp a Gentile ate, and the Jewish Christians at Jerusalem saw no reason to change that just because some Gentiles had become Christians.

  • Jerry,
    NO ONE who lives their life for Christ Jesus has lived their life in vain.
    One the other hand if someone lives their life for themself, and for their fleshly desires they have not only lived their life in vain, but they are doomed.
    Living for Christ requires sacrifice of self on every level.

  • Michael, just to let you know, no solid biblical theologian doubts God’s creation and acceptance of gay men and lesbians, nor do they hold that the Scriptures demonize or condemn same-sex relationships unless they are in the context of violence, exploitation or idolatry, just as with heterosexual relationships. I say this as a theologian who has gone through the London School of Divinity, Heythrop College, London, and King’s College, London . . . and I have read the work of thousands of theologians. Reading Hebrew and Greek myself, I agree with them, and feel that negative teaching sits firmly in the realm of those Christians who only read English, tend to only read the KJV, and only listen to preachers with little education and even less compassion and love.

  • Would Peterson have come to the same conclusion if he would have sat down and talked to Rosaria Butterfield or Jackie Hill-Perry?

  • I have read the bible. I have also read a lot of Stephen King books. I read war and peace by Tolstoy and the old man and the sea by Hemingway. Each was just as “Divinely” inspired as the other and I don’t need any of them to be a good person and live a happy meaningful life.

  • See what happens when you live your life based on words in a book. You spend all your time constantly worried about trying to run someone else’s life instead of focusing on yourself.

  • Go !! #Taiwan !! 請支持 #婚姻平權 ..^_________^
    #LGBT #LGBTQ #LGBTQIA #Lesbian #Gay #Bisexual #Transgender #intersexual #asexual #同志 #女同性戀 #男同性戀 #雙性戀 #跨性別 #雙性人 #無性戀

  • No I am someone who is tired of being beaten down by bible thumping bullies. When one tends to return the favor then sudden the bullies want to cry foul.

  • Go !! #Taiwan !! 請支持 #婚姻平權 ..^_________^
    #LGBT #LGBTQ #LGBTQIA #Lesbian #Gay #Bisexual #Transgender #intersexual #asexual #同志 #女同性戀 #男同性戀 #雙性戀 #跨性別 #雙性人 #無性戀

  • Then why are you trying to argue biblical doctrine when you don’t even believe it in the first place? That’s your first problem and until you get that taken care of nothing else matters. Of course you sin …youre a sinner…an unbeliever. ..that’s what you’re expected to do. But until you decide to charge your life and repent you are on your way to hell. And I would have to hate you more than anything in this world to not tell you the truth about that.

  • Which basically means you can’t answer the question so you had to find a way to save face

  • Yeah, of course! And you can get most of it, especially when it’s a fairy tale book!
    Right?
    You (shall) see what happens when you start guiding your life after the “teachings” of some evolved people nowadays!!
    Whatch out! It’s gone be really exciting!
    I know you are not so stupid (like others) to pay attention to the old, dusted and obsolete Bible!
    In my country some are even saying that it’s dangerous to read it!!
    But to believe it?!?
    Come on, man! We are modern man, lots of science available today!
    So that, people today can do whatever they like, how they like and want!!
    It’s so nice and convenient!!
    So what if in that book are described some actions that people like to do?
    Like pedophilia, or… necrophilia, or.. zoophilia, isn’t it?
    Are they wrong?
    Who can decide for the human kind if something it’s right or wrong?
    Let the people do what they like to do, Jerry!
    Whatever they think today, or tommorrow!
    That would be nice to be acomplished in the future!
    A future your children will live in!

  • The sins you mention from the old testament are talked about and negated in the new testament. Homosexuality is not negated in the new testament.

  • Matthew 5:28; Mark 7:21-23; Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:1-11; Matthew 15:19-20; Mark 10:1-12; Luke 16:18; John 4:1-26; John 8:1-11

  • No I don’t believe it actually. And this is coming to you from someone who was raised in the southern baptist church. I was even the head deacon of the church I belonged to. After I saw the church become a political tool i found that it was no longer following Christ but was following man. It is steeped in hypocrisy and the more you delve into the Book the contradictions in it are endless. If it were truly divine there would be no contradictions. It was merely a book used by the powerful to control the lowly masses and keep them in line. You ask why I argue it if I don’t believe it and then you turn around and use it to try and induce fear into me with it. That is hypocritical in itself. You want to use it for your side of the argument but then condemn me for using it to argue back. I don’t hate anyone if that’s what they want to immerse themselves in, but do not use it to attack me with and it most assuredly should not be used as a political tool to dictate to others how they should live.

  • Then there’s no reason for you to be posting here (except for the fact that you are looking for someone to tell you that your lifestyle is really OK). You are a sinner…of course you sin…that’s what sinner do. And there’s no reason for you to stop sinning because a person tells you to. That will do no good anyway because it’s a matter of the heart. But until you DO repent and stop sinning you are in your way to hell…and it’s not going to be as *shoulder shrug* “no big deal” as you think it is. And is going to take about 2 nanoseconds for you to change your mind and desperately wish you had listened.

  • I appreciate your reinforcing my thankfulness that I’ve been totally free from religious nonsense for about forty years.

  • Just because the Bible records something (polygamy) does not mean it approves of it.

  • Only because women aren’t mentioned as much. …yes verses like the ones about Sodom and Gomorrah only talk about men with men…but that’s for the same reasons that they only counted how many men were in a crowd

  • I would reply to that if I had the slightest idea of what you were talking about. Just a lot of ideas and sentences thrown together in a comment with no cohesiveness. Was there a particular point that you were trying to make?

  • That’s not true of the Mosaic law. In Deuteronomy it was commanded for an Israelite who had a brother who died to take on his widow. If he refused she had the right to take him to the elders to be publicly humiliated. Its true that by Jesus’ time the practice was much less common with several Jewish sects having abandoned it. However Psalms, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes and Proverbs were all written by polygamists. If God didn’t approve of it then why did these books get written by them ? My point is there is some cultural adaptation going on with God’s laws through the ages.

  • There is no greater love than to stop someone from their journey to hell. There is no greater hatred than to pat them on the head and tell them they’ll be OK when you know they are on their way to hell.

  • Answer: there’s not. ..only those who are trying to tell themselves its OK to live in rebellion because that’s what they want to do

  • But you are saying that two females made those children with no males involved? Have you been on Oprah? Do you have a signed book deal?

  • There is no greater hatred than to let someone continue on their way to hell without warning them.

  • Michelle, do you obey First Corinthians 14:33-35?

    “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

  • Very sad to see people like this basically ignoring what the Scriptures say. So he would probably allow two young people to live together outside of marriage or a person who was openly committing adultery to take on tasks at the church.

  • I’m sorry, Jerry! I’m sorry that my english wasn’t clear enough for you!
    What reply could you have on the idea of the low morality the human kind is living also these days?
    The last days of the Roman Empire are telling you anything?
    Nothing new under the sun?
    Also not clear enough for you?
    “Like pedophilia, or… necrophilia, or.. zoophilia, isn’t it?
    Are they wrong?”
    What it’s not clear there?
    Are not those real facts?
    Once again, I’m sorry for you.

  • Jerry, you should be ashamed of yourself, attacking Janelle like that. She has been forgiven and set free and made a new creation! The old has gone, the new has come! The same can happen for you. Yes, we are all born into sin. But Jesus came to destroy the works of darkness. Like any other sin, homosexuality is a work of darkness that Jesus delivers us from.

  • As has already been stated, nothing, absolutely nothing scientifically has shown there is anything at all genetically that creates homosexuality in a person. In fact it seems the opposite is true. And even if it were so, Scripture still says it is wrong to practice it. An adulterer will often say “but I just felt that I needed to do it.” We don’t live by our feelings. I have no problem with someone who has gay “feelings” or tendencies, if that person does not act on them. We don’t get to change what the Bible says to fit each person’s feelings.

  • I’d rather go to hell than worship your god. And this isn’t something I just came up with off the top of my head. I’ve considered it very seriously. I know I could be standing there, writhing in everlasting flame, screaming my heart out from moment to moment for trillions and trillions of years into eternity, but I won’t worship your god.

    So consider your warning returned to you.

  • That’d be the same Bible that says a raped woman can be sold to her rapist for 50 shekels, right? (Deuteronomy 22) The same Bible that has rules for slavery? The Bible that considers wives property along livestock in the 10 Commandments? That Bible? Sorry, I’m a bit more choosy than that, and I suspect you are as well.

  • “It [the Bible] was merely a book used by the powerful to control the lowly masses and keep them in line.”

    You nailed it, Jerry!

  • And I’ll be right for eternity that your god is pathetic, weak and more like a dictator than a loving Father.

  • I prove it to myself everyday when I look in a mirror. Now you prove that he didn’t!

  • I know that. But in 1989 I heard a sermon by Bert Waggoner (who later became head of the Vineyard Churches) about the need to get the reality of hell in my heart. I disagreed with him then, I disagree with the sentiment now. But I feel it’s important for people to understand what they mean when they say that others are going to suffer for eternity. So I use myself as the example. But I’m also dead serious. If I’m wrong, and I am wreathed in flames for eternity because I thought God was far more loving than we give him credit for, I’d still say the same thing.

  • Let’s see, burn in hell or worship a “god” I can’t respect? This is no choice at all.

  • Well, you know, all this talk about husbands and wives falls on deaf ears here, because I’m a never-married, childless, middle-aged woman. I don’t fit in your mold.

  • And as always, when people quote Romans 1, they fail to include Romans 2:1:

    Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

  • Hey, that’s your decision. And you revel in it all you want to. Like I said, you’ll dismiss it by some comment.

  • Jerry how we live here on earth determines if we do or don’t enter Heaven. To enter Heaven we must do two things. 1 Read God’s word (The Holy Bible). 2 Do what it says. Of course this information is only important to those of us who truly want to enter Heaven.

  • Do you even know the reason why? If a woman is raped no man would marry her there for her life would be at risk and she’d be constrained to a life of either begging or prostitution and she would be raped more down the road but making her get married gave her Economic Security and physical security for the rest of our life the law was an act of kindness towards the woman. Unpleasant by today’s standards to be sure but we live with a lot of blessing in America.

  • It’s important to understand exegetical context of the passage and not to simply see it in a vacuum, standing on it’s own.For example, God understood that slavery already existed in society so he set rules governing it, but He did not condone it.

  • When a person decides to have sex with another person that is a choice they make. It has nothing to do with being born to do it. That is an excuse used to evade the true issue which is making a choice. If gays are born gay then rapists are born rapists and serial killers are born serial killers and so on and so on and so on. Stop blaming your sexual preference on being born like you have no choice. You DO have a choice and you choose homosexuality. Hiding behind the being born that way excuse just shows you are not proud of your choice. What a weak man you are. You do the sin and then blame that sin on being born. You sir are the one who does not have eyes to see or ears to hear. You keep making excuses for your sin like it’s not any fault of your own doing.

  • He’s just another hypocrite that Jesus warned about.
    I personally know numerous EX-homosexuals.

  • We should all keep in mind that Jerry is not the spokesperson for the whole gay community. He is speaking his truth and the idea that many of you “Christians ” want to unload all your hatred of homosexual sin onto him is disturbing. Jerry, I’m sorry you have lost some faith. I too have had my faith shaken in large part due to the homosexual issue and the hypocrisy of the church and those I see in it. I still have will not attend a church, but I hope one day I will find one that speaks the Truth to me. I would love to recommend an author to you, Bishop John Shelby Spong. Many fundamentalist will call him a “a wolf in sheep’s clothing”, but but he is a theologian and a very pro-LGBT. His approach to the bible was very SCHOLARLY and refreshing, based on years of his and other academic studies, not just what the church wants to you to believe. He literally gave me hope in the faith and some Christians again.

  • Angel de Armendi. Revelation 22:18-19 (18) I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; (19) and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
    (misrepresenting God’s word is not a smart thing to do)

  • I don’t believe you have read the Bible. I can’t believe anything that you say while blaming your homosexuality on the excuse of being born. You take no responsibility for your choices or actions. You blame it on God

  • Peterson’s choice of a non grammatical historical interpretation demonstrates that his desire to be in solidarity with his own intentions supersedes his desire to be in solidarity with the only God who can provide him with the right ones. You can only be in solidarity with homosexuals if you are in solidarity with God —the only one who knows their designs and how to be truly *for* them. Thus Peterson has effectively chose a god that adapts to the moral preferences of his people, rather than one who privileges them so that they may live out His Holiness through His power.

    It’s easy to look to influencers and assume they have done some really really hard studying somewhere and ‘found’ the secret “get out of heterosexual sex” free card, yet that’s never been the case for any influencers amongst the gay Christian community who affirm homosexual sex. They don’t even try to debate the issue anymore. They use anecdotes of people in the church who don’t conform to whatever they assume the consequences would be for acting out. The Bible rarely lists the consequences for any behavior, especially in the New Testement. That’s between you and god. When anyone sins in the Bible it’s often the case that the grass is green and sky is blue the next day, sometimes for generations. If we could trust our own intentions over Christ, what is He for? Experience doesn’t validate truth, it only might attest to it. Peterson deconstructs God’s words into a meaning preferred, and builds an idol in his own image in their place.

  • Your entire comment is just your opinion. You not once gave scripture and verse to show where the Bible contradicts itself, or where we use it to induce fear into you, or where it is used as a political tool. If you know so much about the Bible you should be able to give scripture and verse instead of just personal opinion.

  • Are you kidding? The current demand of the LGBT community is for everyone to except that gender is *fluid*, which means she could have been a lesbian 5min ago and not be one now if she wants.

  • AGAIN, you miss the point Jerry. Sin is Sin. We are talking about Sin. How stupid are you that you don’t realize this?

  • Blaming homosexuality on being born instead of taking responsibility for one’s actions and choices is a show of weakness. Plain and simple.

  • Jerry, 2 Peter 20-21 (20) But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, (21) for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
    ( God’s Word is not just a book)

  • DUH !!! His point is where your children will end up without the guidance of God’s word. How stupid are you?

  • God made Adam and Eve without sin. Satan deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden and sin was born. So no Jerry God did not make man a sinner.

  • Michael your exposition is to be applauded as I have read through this discussion. Thoughtful, insightful, gracious and founded. Grace and Peace +

  • Don’t speak for God. Heaven or Hell is the real issue here. Eternity is a long time. We will spend it in one of these two places.

  • So you are basing your definition of homosexuality solely on the act of sex? Are you also basing your definition of heterosexuality on that as well? Is that all you base your relationships, companionship and marriage on as Well? Homosexuality just as heterosexuality is much more than just the act of sex, but that seems to be all the minds of good “Christian” peopke can focus on.

  • sexual preference is a choice not something we are born with. When we meet Jesus he will judge us for our actions and choices not for what we were born with.

  • Are they now heterosexual, without a single homosexual thought? Or are they people who claim to no longer be homosexual, but could not claim to be heterosexual. Not without lying through their teeth.
    “I used to be gay, but now I’m straight” usually translates out to “I was always bisexual, but I hated the gay part of me.””

  • Sin is sin. I am talking about being gay or straight neither of which i consider a sin. So, no we are not talking about sin. Just those of you that want to tend to other people’s private business are talking about sin.

  • That’s for the not smart and the misedumacated.
    That’s for the not smart and the misedumacated.

  • I’m not blaming God or whoever. I am perfectly happy the way I am. You seem to be the unhappy one. Quite frankly I’m not concerned about nor care what you believe.

  • You are in a comment section for an article about the acceptance of homosexuality in the church which is against God’s word (The Bible). What did you expect to hear? How stupid are you?

  • Thanks for comparing me to drug users, murderers, and thieves. Your intelligence, reasoning ability, and compassion are clear.

  • We didn’t define ourselves by our sexuality. YOU defined us that way.
    We didn’t define ourselves by our sexuality. YOU defined us that way.

  • And every comment you made is your personal opinion based on your interpretation of a book. My interpretation is totally opposite but no less wrong or right than yours.

  • Another compassionate Christian.
    so,. when heterosexuals get divorced, abandon their kids, commit adultery, fornicate, cohabitate, and everything else…
    it’s all the fault of the figs. Those damned figs. God hates figs.
    But not as much as you do.

  • I’ve been watching antigay Christians who use their bibles as weapons fail for my entire life. It is sad to fail as a decent human and even worse to final and pretend you are being only by doing so.

  • So, then, there really should be a problem, and all of this stuff about what god intended is just nonsense.
    You don’t even believe your stuff yourself.

  • Eating shrimp is an abomination. But you have magicked your way into pretending it is not.

  • That sort of cruelty toward another’s life narrative is so… fundamentalist of you, Mr. Hinnant. Stop with the binaries. We are *all* as Christians trying to sort out the aftermath of what has been the implosion of white Trumpangelicalism. I know people who did in fact display “mutability” re their orientation, which had been exclusively gay/lesbian. I know others who chose celibacy as a response to what they understand their calling in Christ to be. And yes, I know yet others who believe their sexual orientation is not a sin and who have married. Where am I at on it all? I still hew conservative (to a degree) on sexual issues, though support gay marriage as a matter of loving my neighbor enough to allow them their own choices. But I do *not* think attacking either gays’ stories of faith or former gays’ stories of faith is legitimately a way to have a discussion.

  • Except that it may be a sin to you, but not to them. Just because an old book says so, don’t make it so. Bible lovers eat pork and she’ll fish. They are abominations.

  • Jerry your opinion does not do anything except show your denial. Instead of saying nothing you choose to say she is brainwashed. While still saying God made her the way she was just as you say he made you homosexual instead of standing up and taking responsibility for your actions and choices one of which is homosexuality as she HAS done. As if admitting your homosexuality is your choice would make you less of a man.

  • Mmmmm i dont remember saying that he did. In fact I said the opposite that we are born without sin and one of your other bible thumpers told me I was wrong. So which is it he/she or it did make man as a sinner or he/she or it didn’t? One of you “bible experts ” is wrong. My guess would be both of you.

  • So big deal you attended church as a child. You obviously CHOOSE to not convert and serve God. Just as you CHOOSE to be homosexual. You fail to mention what even Bob Dylan understood. It may be the Devil or it may be the Lord but you’re gonna serve somebody. Where Jesus is not welcome Satan WILL prevail.

  • Peterson basis his answer to the questions on experience, not Scripture. This issue is first and foremost always an issue about Scriptural authority. Those who fudge on biblical authority prefer to reinterpret Scripture through the lens of culture instead of through the lens of Scripture itself. In the end, the most unloving thing someone can do is affirm someone in their sin. True love is guided by the truth of God’s word, not our fallen experiences, unreliable feelings, or sense of duty to culture over God’s word. Peterson nailed his flag to the mast long ago. His endorsement of same-sex marriage is first and foremost a bibliological issue whereby he prefers Sola cultura to Sola Scriptura. He is not the first and he certainly won’t be the last.

  • Your homosexual relationship is a choice also. Why do you keep blaming it on being born? Take responsibility for your choices and actions like a man.

  • And I don’t think me and my family and the lgbt community being constantly attacked by groups like exodus international (for whom she worked), family research council, liberty family council, focus on the family among many others is a legitimate way to have a discussion either. I hope you have shared your outrage to all of these anti gay organizations as well or is your outrage a one way street?

  • The biblical case is clear (http://www.str.org/videos/the-bible-and-homosexuality), so I wish Eugene would have elucidated us on the reasons behind his view. Without reasons, this news is not very useful, theologically.

    It sounds like his long held view on homosexuality is that whether one is homosexual or not isn’t very important to spirituality. He seems to have a desire to be gracious in his dealings with his parishioners.

    Obviously, we are to have grace and truth in every situation, and that means it’s important to be biblical and rationally-grounded. After all, being nice isn’t love, though I pray *Lord, please help your love in our hearts lead us to kindness.* (Gal 6:22;1 Cor 13:6) Love can’t delight in wrongdoing, so we have to know what is right and wrong in order to love well.

    If homosexual behavior is something inert to the church, church discipline, and church leadership, why is it that homosexuality cannot–in Eugene’s view–be paraded? He says, “I don’t think it’s something that you CAN parade” (my emphasis). I wonder why not? Would he correct his parishioners if they did?
    Are festivals celebrating heterosexual (monogamous, lifelong) marriages in principle ok? If they are, why aren’t gay parades? Perhaps gay parades aren’t allowed–in Eugene’s view–because of the overt and explicit nature–often toned down by the media–in the homosexual parades and homosexual movement generally. If that’s true–and we may never know his view unless he clarifies–this would imply that his broad acceptance of homosexuality is in error. (If p then q, if not q, then not p, etc.)

    I think Eugene would agree, we need to look to Scripture and not people to determine what defines real love–fulfillment of the law.
    Other loves are not virtues. For example, see how the fruit of deep Christian charity compares to the cost of “free love” of the 60s.
    Only Scripture is authoritative on these issues, right? Or are we to follow human authorities?

    If I taught people that it’s ok to disobey the least of God’s commandments, I would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:19) *Lord, please help us, and don’t give us what we deserve.*

  • Careful Andrew, Revelation 22:18-19 (20) But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, (21) for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

  • I have read The Message several times through and have been very blessed. Pastor Peterson states in the introduction; however, that it is not a study bible. Study bibles are usually translated by a group of bible scholars from a variety of Christian faiths. They are committed to a faithful translation and the varied group protects against theological biases. I used to consider The Message more of a paraphrase, but even with that I assumed that Pastor Peterson would be true to the original meaning of the text. Pastor Peterson’s “paraphrase” of New Testament texts regarding sexual immorality have left me puzzled for some time. This month I have been reading Galatians and finally decided to google his views on same-sex marriage. I am disappointed that Pastor Peterson would let his own views on same sex marriage influence his decision to alter the original meaning of the text. I would have to now categorize The Message as a bible commentary and not even a paraphrase. I doubt that even Pastor Peterson would recommend The Message to be used as a resource for debating same-sex marriage.

  • No more than you I guess . Being as it was article about acceptance I wanted to read it. There a a great number of religious people who do not practice the unchristlike religious condemnation that you seem to be a part of. Maybe you need a refresher course on those two greatest commandments that Jesus said you should follow.

  • Yet another public Christian figure comes out in support of same-sex behavior, singing the same ol’ tune as the others who did so before him: Disregard what Scripture says about the matter and cite personal experience.
    Very disappointing.

  • Also, the passage in question does not specifically translate to “rape.” All it says is that the man “puts his hands on her” and “lies with her.” It might be consensual or it might not be. To put it in the simplest terms possible, it is simply a requirement that a man take responsibility for any premarital sex he might have.

  • I didn’t address you at all.

    Is I’m-rubber-you’re-glue all you know, Ben? Middle school must have been hell on earth for you.

  • I think he knew which side his bread was buttered on and so he didn’t come “out” with his anti-biblical view until long after he was retired. He is on his last book. He’s got his pension, his royalties and this last book will bring in $$ just because he’s “come out”. I cannot stand people like him who will hide their beliefs until they have fleeced the sheep. Shame on him. His legacy is completely destroyed among evangelicals.

  • First you say she is, and cannot change that, then you say she is not and cannot change that? Whatever happened to sexual freedom? Are you not free to choose who you want to “love”?

  • a) that wasn’t a prophesy it was about the proper translation of what Jesus said in Matthew b) the same word is used and translated as ‘strongly desire’ with no sexual connection in other uses in the NT. Jesus uses the same word in Greek when he talks about wanting to be with his disciples. It clearly is debatable if it should be translated as ‘lust’ in Matthew ! Please if someone whats a theological discussion can you stick to discussing the Greek. That text in Revelation is talking about interpreting prophesy in scripture – which is totally different.

  • Uh, no. I did not nor do not. Current psychology does as well.

    Th bible does not either. He is correct that the word homosexuality did not appear in the Bible before the 1950s because until then, no one had used it as a term of identity. It was always used as a word describing a sexual act.

    It doesn’t change what the Bible says about it.

  • Former alcoholics often desire a drink. Former drug addicts often desire a fix. Former wife beaters often struggle with avoiding violent reactions. Many former sex offenders have to fight the urge to indulge in their illicit desires. Former homosexuals probably have more than “a single homosexual thought.”
    The one thing that unites all of these? They don’t want to continue to be defined by the lifestyle they are trying to leave behind. I think you should respect their wishes.

  • Like I said above, I personally know numerous EX-homosexuals:
    There are many research studies that I could cite but here are a several that I assembled from my reading:

    NO “GAY GENE”:
    1) Rice G, Anderson C, Rich N, Eber. 1999. Male homosexuality; absence of linkage to micro-satellite markers at Xq28. Science 284:665-7.
    2) Mustanski BS, DuPree MG, Nievergelt CM, Bocklandt S, Schork NJ, Hamer DH. 2005. A genome wide scan of male sexual orientation. Human genetics 116:272-83)
    3) Whitehead, N. 2014. Is Same Sex Attraction a Developmental Milestone? Journal of Human Sexuality 5:37-62

    HOMOSEXUALS CAN CHANGE:
    1) Savin-Williams RC, Ream GL. 2007. Prevalence and stability of sexual orientation components during adolescence and young adulthood. Archives of Sexual Behavior 36:385-394.
    * Dr. Savin-Williams of Cornell Univ. is pro-gay but he insists that he must go by research results!
    2) Spitzer RL. 2003. Can some gay men and lesbians change their sexual orientation? 200 participants reporting a change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation. Archives of Sexual Behavior 32:403-417.
    3) Jones SL and Yarhouse MA. 2007. Ex Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation.

    HETEROSEXUALS CAN CHANGE:
    Kitzuger C and Wilkinson S. 1995. Transition from heterosexuality to lesbianism: the dicursive production of lesbian identities. Developmental Psychology 31:95-100.
    * Kitzuger & Wilkinson rule out the genetic control in homosexual attraction!!!

    WHAT “CAUSES” HOMOSEXUALITY
    “Whitehead, N. 2011. Neither Genes Nor Choice: Same-sex attraction is mostly a unique reaction to environmental factors. Journal of Human Sexuality 3:81-114.
    *** Don’t be confused by the title. What is demonstrated in this research that accesses numerous large twin studies since 2001 is this: idiosyncratic responses to environmental factors during childhood and adolescence influences individuals into various directions. There is no contributing genetic factor and there is no conscious “choice” involved that would correspond to the kind of choice that a mature, consciously aware, and informed adult would make after deliberating between options.

    The large study released last year by John Hopkins University researchers also prove that no one is born homosexual. It is an 143 page detailed report that is available for free downloading (which I did).

    “Homosexuals” are in reality “heterosexuals in denial of their heterosexuality” due to a mental disorder. Same thing with transgenderism. Stop being an alethephobe!

    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/number-50-fall-2016

  • I have two friends who are adamant they were born gay. I believe them. Better to look elsewhere than the fallacy of ‘being born in image of god’s.

  • True. But that says nothing about Jesus’s respect for women. God and Jesus love everyone regardless of their marital status, although a minority of Christians act like marriage and having children, not following Christ, is their #1 priority. (She says after celebrating 31 years of marriage with a wonderful guy this past May.)

  • Yes, ‘brainwashing’ is totally unacceptable, much better to think for yourself than believe in religious books written in an age of ignorance and superstition.

  • I have no objection to their living however they wish. They are stilll homosexuals, and will always be,

    1) No gay gene? no heterosexual gene, either. But what it really means is they have not found the gay gene. World of difference. There is plenty of evidence.

    2) Spitzer. He apologized for conducting his research over the telephone, and drawing conclusions that were not warranted.

    3) Jones and yarhouse? They didn’t say anyone could change, they admitted in their research thatwhatever “change” occurred, it was “difficult, ambiguous, complicated.” Their words, not mine. In other words, just like the ex-homosexuals you claim yo know, no one changed.

    The rest of what you have to say has no more value than that. Jesus can change you? That’s why Exodus folded up shop, and the head of Exodus,and Alan chambers, admitted that no one changes, least of all himself.

    If you want to know who is in denial, please find a mirror,

  • I am happy to respect their wishes. They can live any way they wish. What I don’t respect is the lies and deceit. They are still homosexual, and most likely, always will be.

  • Let us not jump to conclusions, please; I did not say the resulting behavior was necessarily justified….

  • Let us not jump to conclusions, please. I did not say that there was a “scientific consensus”; however, the professional medical and psychological studies on this topic do tend to see more evidence in genetic rather than psychological conditions; and as I mentioned in another comment, I have heard both sides of this discussion presented at conservative institutions where speakers were highly insightful with their exegetical research….so I think it appropriate, regardless of which position one takes in the debate, that the other side is respected…because both sides do have excellent points: That is why the controversy exists.

  • Gender is fluid, haven’t you heard? So, sexuality can change. And now that that idea has come to fruition, the LGT, ETC groups are declaring that one isn’t necessary born with a gay gene (see the recent USA Today article, of all sources to suggest it). It truly looks like sexual morality is fluid, except that, historically speaking there are 2000 years of orthodox Christian agreement saying that (even when they might disagree on some other doctrines) the Bible condemns homosexual practice, no matter how you define your “condition” or propensities. Lust (pornography) is condemned. Sexual immorality prior to marriage (premarital sex) is condemned. Adultery is condemned. Yes, our culture today is condemned because of our (Western world’s) embrace of ungodly (meaning God doesn’t accept it) multiple expressions of sexuality and so called sexual freedom. Conversion to Christ can and does help people change their aberrant sexual behavior, whether heterosexuality or homosexuality. It is Christ who changes hearts, lives and actions. See Rosario Butterfield, just a sample case contradicting your premise.

  • Again, the tone of this sort of comment will not, I’m afraid, support the point you are attempting to make.

  • Actually, I must point out that Mr. Bruner is quite correct in his point; this is precisely what we learned at Gordon-Conwell, which places a strong emphasis on correct exegesis of Hebrew and Greek; and I should also point out that calling someone a liar is hardly going to make your point more persuasive…..

  • There are plenty of unconverted Southern Baptists (among others) out there serving the church who have never known Christ. Hence, the hypocrisy, which is real. Jesus will sort through the wheat and tares at the end, a very harrowing thought for all of us. What is our hope? Repentance, including our sinful inclinations (that is certainly one of the issues I repented of when I became a Christian after having been in a Southern Baptist church for 18 years – I was a lost moralist who was not moral). And along with repentance, faith in Jesus Christ, not an altar call or a position serving or holding an office in the church. Christ saves and then he calls every follower to deny themselves (including their aberrant and sinful sexuality) and follow him in the holy path of becoming like Christ. By their fruits you will know them. And one of those fruits is seeking sexual purity, whatever your struggle. Grateful for his grace!

  • On the flip side, there are some people who have been able to leave certain lifestyles, such as the ones I’ve mentioned, with little or no inclination to return to their former behaviors. I’d guess these are a minority, but I don’t think that automatically referring to anyone who is so “lucky” as full of “lies and deceit” helps anything. At best, doing so suggests that you are unwilling to consider that the round peg of the real world may not fit perfectly into the square hole of your opinions, and at worst, it reveals envy and self-loathing. I realize their existence threatens your own preferred way of living (after all, if it can be changed, you actually have to take responsibility for your actions), but harsh words and criticisms are a poor substitute for rational discourse.

  • Your comments are probably some of the most ridiculous I have ever read. Complete nonsense.

  • There are many who are false converts and who jesus labeled as “hypocrites”. But, then, what do you know about what Jesus said?

    I know people who are EX-drunkards, EX-adulterers, EX-porn addicts, EX-liars, etc. etc. I also know people who have claimed to be Christian but are total hypocrites or who never learned how to deal with temptation. Everyone is tempted in some form or fashion. EVERYONE! Here is what James says in the Bible about temptation:

    “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
    13) Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
    14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”
    James 1:12-15 (NewKJV)

    Next month I will have been married for 42 years. Does that mean I am not occasionally tempted to “look at a woman to lust for her” (Matthew 5:28)? What it means is that I resist the temptation and I “pluck out my eye” (i.e. I look the other way!).

    Grow up!

  • I’m sure Andrew has; as a matter of fact, his point is precisely what we were taught in hermeneutics and exegetical classes in Greek and Hebrew at Gordon-Conwell: that there is, in many cases, a cultural element to be considered; which is the basis of this entire argument–some see same gender marriage as a justified and compassionate cultural interpretation; others see it as a violation of a spiritual principle. But I must say, accusing someone of not having read the Bible, simply because s/he does not agree with your interpretation of it, will hardly make your point more persuasive…..

  • Oh, I’m afraid I would have to disagree; there are many celibate people who are same gender attracted, who are, indeed, Christians; and as far as rebellion goes, we all tend to gloss over what we like to do, even when we know it is not exactly the most Christ-like behavior…..

  • The old “No true scotswoman” fallacy. Tried to slip that one in didn’t you, but Dirty Harry#1 caught you. Your argument just fell apart.

  • It would have saved more time to simply just ask, “why won’t he hate the same people I do”.

  • You said, “I will find [a church] that speaks the Truth to me,” Yet, it seems you seek those that will only agree with you, like Shelby Spong.

  • I am really deeply disappointed, not so much by the content of many of these comments, but by their tone: Simply because we may have disagreements on this point does not mean that we must disrespect each other. As a matter of fact, the insulting tone of a comment can wholly destroy the very solid point it may be making. I am surprised so many do not seem to understand that.

  • Because every ex gay proponent who has made such statements in public, subsequently tells people they 1ied about it. When the people who run ex gay ministries state to the public that it was all crap, it makes such claims like yours even less credible.

  • 1. Plenty of closeted guys marry hetero out of pressure and desire to conform. It has no bearing on orientation.

    2-5 seem to confirm what I said about 1

  • What a load of crap designed to appeal to religious based bigots. Nothing brave or well put there. It’s just platitudes to give people excuses for treating guys as less than human.

  • Sin is not crime or harm. One has to he convinced something is sinful by what they are indoctrinated with.

  • Your version of Jesus is rather hateful, destructive and has little to offer moral people. There are other sects out there that do not share your sanctimony and prejudices.

  • The challenge, I see, is knowing inherent and a translated choice. That is why it is important to know the will of God.

  • Your opinion is certainly not surprising…. Modern Fundamentalism is the popular ‘flavor’ of Christianity (only about 250 yrs. old, but somehow determined to hold that it is the ONLY true interpretation.) Always amazed at how many folks ignore the actual teaching of Jesus in favor of all the other stuff… (again, look at the story of Martha and Mary in Luke….) {{sigh}}…

  • The most insulting and disrespectful posts come from those who seek to use religious faith as excuses to treat a class of people as less than human. The ones who look for more verbose ways of saying, “God hates [email protected]”.

  • Perhaps you should read some of my other comments. I attended as way more than a child. And who made Bob Dylan an authority on the subject. LOL

  • I take full responsibility for all my choices however being gay is not one of them. You however choose to be a bigoted ass. Do you assume that responsibility?

  • What does that even mean? Lol. You have nothing I trouble to add so you just make up some obscure fallacy to throw out. Don’t project such desparation!

  • Uh, “Price,” it’s scholarship, huh? Really?

    I must be a fool to parade my credentials, but your blathering on about your own forces me into it.

    So, for the record: my M.Div. is from Gordon-Conwell and you deny what Gordon-Conwell’s profs taught about Hell. Maybe you’re young and there were some dudes and dudettes who invaded the school by the time you went there. Who taught you Hebrew? Greek? Exegesis? Hermeneutics? For me, in order, Meredith Kline Jr., Fowler who served as Chair of UW-Madison’s Classics Dept., Doug Stuart, Gordon Fee, and Meredith Kline Sr.

    Simpletons like to spout off about semantic components and receptor languages and correct exegesis while knowing nothing about it. The big words are meant to cover their nakedness.

    There’s a reason the Church has always taught Scripture’s doctrine of the eternal torments of Hell as Jesus taught them, and has done so from the times of Jesus until today. No matter how they justify their departure from Scripture, those who deny Jesus’ teaching are liars. And I say “liars” not to persuade you or the other guy, but simply to warn sheep away from the ditch you and he have fallen into. Love,

  • You apparently did not see later where I apologized to him. But you are correct – snarkiness doesn’t
    contribute to the conversation.

  • So now Peterson has changed his mind about changing his mind. Funny how losing book sales instead of increasing them will do that to someone. Glad he has been outed – by himself! — as a false teacher.

  • Not condoning sin is unchristlike? Satan speaks from your lips. You do represent Satan if you are not a born again follower of Jesus. And yet again you do not put scripture and verse you only offer your opinion.
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, (10) nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

    (You will never see Heaven living a homosexual lifestyle)

  • Just as you seek those who agree with you, so what makes him any different than you other than he seeks those who accept everyone no matter who or what they are and you seek those who want to exclude and condemn others. I would say what he is seeking is way more Christian than your version!

  • Dude you have a serious mental condition that you need to seek some counseling for. By the way if people like you are going to be occupying heaven then go ahead and cancel my reservation!

  • A cultural element – Moses said at the end of Lev. 18:30 dont do these things like the Egyptians did. They are abominations and will defile you and the land. (paraphrased)
    So does G/C no longer teach homosexuality is a sin?

  • Congratulations Conservative Evangelicals – you got your prophet back. It’s too bad that your churches will never be places of sanctuary for “Samaritans” (i.e. anyone who isn’t privileged to be born heterosexual). It’s heartbreaking to hear your Biblical arguments for “orthodoxy” and hatred for one of your own prophets who might offer Grace to sinners- and yet you are so blind to how the Scribes and Pharisees hated Jesus for “eating with sinners”…and it cost him his life. My prayer is that you will wake up to your own sins of hatred for homosexuals before you lose the Salvation that you hold onto so tightly.

  • Do Christians ever explore the question of why the Bible forbids homosexuality? There are plenty of crimes which humans should avoid committing against one another, such as murder, assault or rape, which make perfect sense to condemn because no one would want these acts committed against themselves, and we couldn’t have a thriving society if these behaviors were allowed to run freely rampant. But if consenting adults find love and companionship with each other, and they are not harming anyone else, it seems inconceivably strange that this should be treated with such contempt and scorn. There are many behaviors in the Bible which are condoned, commanded, and even rewarded by God in the stories, which no one would dream of emulating today. No one would think of keeping slaves, or concubines, or trudging over the hill to kill the neighboring tribe down to their livestock. The typical response seems to be that these were just “reflections of the times”, and the issue is overlooked. Why wouldn’t the rules about homosexuality be treated similarly? There seems to be little to no justification for making gay people into social pariahs, who are unable to secure the same legal and financial protections for their loved ones which straight people take for granted. Children are still disowned by their parents and thrown out to live in the streets, simply for feeling different from their peers. It seems like there’s still a lot of work to be done, and progress to be made, on this issue, and it can’t be done until the Christian world feels empowered to explore this question with an eye toward modernity, consent, and compassion.

  • Exactly, The problem is that no one wants to apply the same principles to the Scriptures addressing homosexuality. Taken in context of history, culture, the original language, and the rest of the Bible… Those scriptures have a much deeper meaning.

  • Jonathan Merritt, the word ‘homosexual’ did not appear in English Bibles until 1946 because it’s first appearance in the English language wasn’t until 1892. It took some time for it to gain widespread use. You’re an editor; you can do better research than that, and certainly not use it to make any statement about the Bible’s teaching on homosexuality. One place you can read about that is on the website of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.

  • Or never was, there is a sin of homosexuality, being straight and sleeping with someone of the same sex when it goes against your natural birth of being straight. 😉

  • A person cannot change their sexuality. A person can choose to sleep with the same-sex and go against their natural desire for the opposite sex for sometime, but a person cannot just choose to be gay or straight. If that were the case I’m sure you would remember the time when you decided that you were sexually attracted to men, or boys. 😉

  • Those remarks are repugnant, yes; but neither side can fully claim exemption from rudeness, I’m afraid……

  • Why don’t we get to? Christians have been changing it for thousands of years. Today’s King James version of the bible would look like a total unidentifiable book to its original writers.

  • Oh, no; most faculty there do not tend to support same-gender marriage, but they do, however, try to help students see each side of the debate, one side a cultural development argument (like women no longer wearing hats in church), the other a spiritual one (the bride of Christ example); and (at least 20 years ago when I was there), that homosexuality could be caused by a number of things, with genetics a strong factor; that most clinics and treatments which promise to reverse sexual desires from one gender to the other, though seemingly well-intentioned, fail “abysmally”; and thus, that it is better to advise celibacy, the standard which all unmarried Christians are required to follow (or at least attempt to, with God’s grace). Which seems perfectly sensible and Scriptural to me, though I also respect those with other viewpoints on this, many of whom are more Christ-like in their behavior and love toward others than I can ever hope to be….

  • I suppose I could make the argument that all religion/spirituality is about finding the Truth. For me, I need some actual historical facts and to know how to interpret scripture, and not just by a few select chosen people of the cloth who pick and choose what “facts” to give out and when. Also, I don’t blindly follow Shellby Spong either, but addition insight is welcome. I have been told that looking into these things, i.e. the real message of Sanom and Gomorrah, is dangerous territory. Is it just me, or does that sound cult – like?

  • “God hates you” leaves no room for polite discussion.

    Neither does, “If you don’t hate ___ like I do”, you are not really Christian.

  • Very cogent response there Michael (because you know, those pesky lessons of Jesus are so ridiculous they should take a back seat to the arguments/righteous sanctimony/religious indignation), and of course the bible (that has been rewritten, reinterpreted in a multitude of different denominations, and wielded as a weapon rather than an spiritual instrument to be used to examine one’s own life) justifies all the hate, intolerance and bigotry?

    Over and over again, account by account, Jesus crossed boundaries, tore down walls, overstepped social mores, and challenged laws, scriptures, traditions, and customs that separated and segregated people into acceptable and unacceptable categories which determined who was ‘in’ and ‘out.’ The zealots of ancient times were fond of muddling up the pure message of the living Christ with scripture too, it’s not surprising to see it continuing to this day. {{{Sigh}}}

  • Where does EP base his view from? Is he using his own biblical interpretation or the actual written word of God? God does not change…He’s the same yesterday, today and tomorrow… God calls it an abomination

  • People use phrases such as “the Scriptures say,” “God’s Word forbids it,” “Biblical Truth,” and ” The Most High God of Holy Scripture!” as though the Bible wasn’t written many centuries ago by patriarchal men with very little limited knowledge. These men knew as much about human sexuality as they did about the galaxy Andromeda.

    The Bible also views lepers, epileptics, and left-handedness as of the devil. Somehow Christians seem to grasp that these views were based on ignorance and no longer condemn these individuals, yet many still continue to use the Bible as a club to beat up on LGBT people. Eugene Peterson has said “enough,” and good for him.

    While there is no definitive answer as to why some people are LGBT, the best evidence so far points to changes in the womb during pregnancy. The authors of the Bible did not know this. But we do.

    The Gay Lobby does not create gay people. Being LGBT is not a spiritual condition. Adam & Eve were not real people. DNA proves that there was never a “Fall.” The term homosexuality was not coined until the 19th century. And none of the hateful remarks presented on this thread were successful in the Prop. 8 case in California or in Obergefell.

    However, this kind of hateful theology actual does kill people.

    About 40% of homeless youth identify as LGBTQ.

    One-third of LGB youth will attempt suicide. This is four times higher than the average for heterosexual, cisgender teens, and when LGB youth attempt suicide, the attempts are 4 to 6 times more likely to end in injuries needing serious medical treatment.

    In a national study, 40% of transgender adults reported having attempted suicide before the age of 25.

    On top of this, LGB youth who come from highly-rejecting families are 8.4 times more likely to attempt suicide than their LGB peers who come from affirming or low-rejecting families.

    About one-fifth of reported single-bias hate crimes are committed against LGBT people.

    Something to think about while discerning “God’s will.”

  • Jerry, The Standard is God’s Word… not anybody’s view or what they want… He is the Potter, we are the clay… There isn’t anywhere in God’s Word that He approves of same sex marriage… He was against it…

  • “Both sides have excellent points.”
    Please tell me some of those excellent points from the pro same sex perspective.

  • So is the thief who doesn’t steal also unhappy with himself? After all, he was born with the proclivity to steal from others but alas, he isn’t being true to himself. It’s a choice. We are born with varying levels of desires and wants, etc. What separates us from animals (among other things), is the ability to not be a slave to our passions.

  • Oh please, please, please cite me the verse and chapter where it says he was/is against gay marriage. That standard only applies if one believes in all your hocus pocus and you won’t mind if I don’t just take you at your word that it is true. I don’t know you but I doubt that you have a red line phone to your holiness in the sky.

  • I see you typically play the “hate, intolerance and bigotry” card when someone presents you with the truth of scripture and disagrees with your reinterpretation of the Bible. And that is what you have done, redefined and reinvented Jesus to conform to your liberal views. Of course Jesus went against the status quo, he was a staunch advocate for women’s rights, treated them equally, and encourage them to learn the scriptures. He attacked the religiosity of the “man-made” law/rules of Judaism and their hypocritical leadership. But He ALWAYS treated (and quoted) the WORD of God as authoritative law for all, including himself. Over and over again Jesus called for repentance from sin. He lovingly ministered to sinners, but always told them to repent,, and to “go and sin no more.” For you to imply that Jesus was supportive of sexual sin, is as I said RIDICULOUS. Your previous comment on salvation was also nonbiblical. Salvation is in Jesus alone “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6. Contrary to your nonsense, there is no other way to God except through faith in Christ alone. And I’m afraid you have made up your own Christ, not the real living Jesus of scripture.

    Dr. James Denison: It is clear that “God is love” (1 John 4:8), but it does not follow that he is the author of every relationship that claims to be loving. His word warns against adultery, for instance (Exodus 20:14). Incest and polygamy are wrong, even if those who engage in them claim to do so out of love. It is the same for same-sex partners, even if they remain monogamous. Another point should be made here: Scripture forbids homosexual activity, not homosexual orientation. All sex outside marriage is wrong, whether heterosexual or homosexual. The sin is not in being attracted to a person of the same sex, or even loving that person. The sin is in expressing that attraction sexually.”

  • Your English was fine it was just all your ideas that are crammed into that comment that was stupid!

  • My sister was born a kleptomaniac; because she was born that way does that make her stealing OK? NO IT’S STILL A SIN!

  • (Update on 7/13: It appears that Peterson has now RETRACTED his words quoted below. According to Christianity Today, here is Peterson’s confession:
    Recently a reporter asked me whether my personal opinions about homosexuality and same-sex marriage have changed over the years. I presume I was asked this question because of my former career as a pastor in the Presbyterian Church (USA), which recently affirmed homosexuality and began allowing its clergy to perform same-sex weddings. Having retired from the pastorate more than 25 years ago, I acknowledged to the reporter that I “haven’t had a lot of experience with it.”
    To clarify, I affirm a biblical view of marriage: one man to one woman. I affirm a biblical view of everything.

  • That is the dumbest comparison i have ever heard in my life. By your own statement any sexually desire or activity is sinful. Hard to keep the bloodline alive if every attempt to keep it going is a sinful act. We are all born with a sexual orientation so If one person’s sexual orientation is sinful then everyone’s is according to your comment. And I hadn’t really paid it much mind lately but I will keep my eyes on everyone’s babies from now on so I can pick out the thieves and let their mom and dad’s know so they can possibly nip it in the bud. LOL now would you like to share any more stupid comparisons with us all?

  • Are you related to JohnL1313? He just made the same type of stupid comparison. Is kleptomania now classified as a sexual orientation? And how did you know she was born one? Did she steal the doctors watch on her way out of the birth canal? If you are going to try and make comparisons at least make intelligent ones and not some stupid one that has nothing to do with the subject.

  • Commit the fallacy, lose the argument.
    I am not the desperate party – you are; I pointed out your fallacious reasoning. So either correct your reasoning or lose the argument on the point in question. Its just that simple.

  • The word “HOMOSEXUAL” wasn’t used anywhere until the late 1800’s but there is no doubt as to what the Bible had to say about it…
    Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    And that’s just one example of many, unless you’re able to interpret that another way?

  • Ah stop trying to flatter Me! I’m just a regular ole guy who is fed up with religious pious jerks trying to tell someone they don’t know that they are sinners and going to some mythological hell because of who they are. You sweet as sugar christians would be better served tending to logs in your own eyes instead of worrying about someone and something that doesn’t concern you.

  • Mmmmm do you apply all of what is said in Leviticus to today’s standards? Do you follow all of those rules? If not Why? They all are the supposed word of God and one is just as important as the next. If you don’t follow each one then don’t be a HYPOCRITE and throw one in someone else’s face.

  • Please take time to investigate the difference between the old covenant and new covenant.

  • We need to seek a biblical perspective not you’re personal one. And no, it’s not a private interpretation either. Biblical truth is understood as Church theologians have understood it unwaveringly and unchanging and never swayed by current culture. Jerry, you are fooling only yourself.

  • You do realize that church theologians are people to right? So any perspective they offer is a personal one as well so that blows your theory right out of the water. Just because they and you believe it’s their way or the highway doesn’t make it anymore profound. I may be fooling myself but you’re not fooling me.?

  • And did God condemn those marriages, even though they were “not the design initiated in Genesis?”

  • When we put God’s Word aside and adapt it to fit what society wants we are doomed. A person’s sexual preference or a person’s desire for crack cocaine is still sin before God – we are to love each sinner and work to restore them to their walk with Christ. Embracing and “normalizing” any sin against God will only cause the problems we face today – see the comments and you can see the hurt this has caused. I want the division to stop – I am tired of the bickering – Peterson is not a surprise his bible says it all – praying harder. We must stand firm in the faith and guard the knowledge the Lord has bestowed to us

  • Interesting how your story is valid but hers is apparently not. You can’t just write off her story just like that because it goes against your worldview.

  • I’m related to a lot of people, so I may be.
    The comparison was in regards to the “BORN THAT WAY” comment.
    From the APA – Kleptomania may be linked to problems with a naturally occurring brain chemical (neurotransmitter) called serotonin. aka BORN THAT WAY…
    My point is that people are born a lot of different ways, klepto, pedo, homo, schizo, etc… just because you’re born that way doesn’t make what you do OK or not a sin or that you don’t need help..
    We are all born sinners, Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    But Jesus dying on the cross wasn’t a “Get Out of Hell Free” card, we are supposed to strive to NOT sin.
    Be careful, your IQ is showing.

  • Interesting that my story is that I am finally living as I was born and she is living opposite of how she said God made her but her story is credible to you and mine is not. I guess it is all where your agenda lies. I guess in your eyes living a lie is ok but living ones truth is sinful. Funny how those religious views can change like the ocean tides. Interesting indeed!

  • ??? If you truly believe all that you just put in your comment I’d be very careful about referring to someone else’s IQ if I were you. Or their mental stability as well.

  • He’s pcusa, they haven’t been grappling with it. They’ve completely perverted Gods word

  • All that matters is what the true Word of God says; it’s a sin.
    Romans 1; 26-27, 1 Corinthians 6; 9-11, and various verses in Deuteronomy.
    This is a classic case of: “Hath God really said…. ?”

    I’m not saying that gay people can’t be ‘nice,’ or be ‘good’ at something, like this musician, or that we can’t be ‘nice’ to them, pull their mule out of a ditch, etc. But we must hold onto the truth of God’s Word. And, there are some things that are easier for some to repent of than others, but with God’s help, all of that is possible. I do get tired of people saying ‘oh, but gluttony is a sin’ and that sort of line. Sure, it is, but two sins does not nullify any one of them. Don’t let them pry you away into the apostasy. When Moses came back down from the mountain, and saw the sexual immorality and idolatry in the camp, it did not fare well for the offenders. This is the day of the ‘Golden Calf Festival’ on steroids in the apostasy of the church.
    Don’t be one of them.

  • So I was right. You would like to institute the Christian version of what in Islam would be Sharia.
    I don’t know if you thought it through. What if the version of Christianity that is in charge is one that you consider to be in error, and they declare every other denomination to be heretical and add heresy to the list of death penalty offenses. It happened before.

  • Perhaps you are seeing the point. It is indeed true that everyone feels their opinion is more valid than the next based on their experience. This includes you. And I. Interesting how self righteousness works, hey? Interesting how you and all of us at this thread appear to be exercising our self righteousness. Perhaps we need an objective truth of sorts then to sort that common human problem out?

  • FYI, you referred to me as “stupid” twice first and also my IQ is 138.
    And YES I strongly believe everything that I write. And up until about 5 minutes ago L. G. B. & T. were all considered “disorders” from the American Psychological Association. (I realizes how un-PC that statement is but truth is still truth)
    I’m good with my mental stability, thanks though.

  • I don’t have my notes from the debate anymore, but the points involved were based on acknowledging the loving and devoted relationship that can exist between two members of the same gender who wish to marry, not simply seeing the relationship as something to be abhorred; after all, there are numberless cases of people who have given up their lives to nurse their partners through AIDS, and other situations where loving couples have had to face hateful actions by family and church members. And myself? I’ve come to the conclusion that people can be right for the wrong reason, and wrong for the right reason…the exegetical evidence does seem to support traditional marriage more….but I still respect those who may disagree….

  • Lewis Spotts – interested in hearing what you think about children that are born as hermaphrodites and the boys born with an extra X chromosome? (really would like to know what you think) In addition….. It’s been proven that adhd is genetic and brains are different as are tendencies toward antisocial behavior. I believe it is quite easy to see how homosexuality is from birth in some cases (clearly not all)

  • 5 minutes ago. Wow that happened quick. Guess you may need to recheck your IQ again as someone obviously erred.

  • Finally someone replies with a common sense reply that I can agree with instead a fire and brimstone condemnation and bible bashing. The truth is nothing more than what each of us perceives it to be.

  • Actually I was going to compliment you on your high IQ. Unfortunately I happened to remember that that was what mine was in the 8th grade, so my momentary feeling of generosity passed quickly.

  • You seem to be profoundly ignorant of Christian history. Sodomy was made a capital crime when the law of the late Roman Empire were Chrstianized in the late 4th century and this pattern remained in effect until fairly modern times. As latte as the 1830’s, England was still hanging sodomites. This is not sharia – this is the Law of God as set forth in His Word.

  • I’m sorry I missed the “hypocrite” remark earlier, but I will be glad to address it now.
    Leviticus was just one example, the same is repeated by Jesus throughout the New Testament. You see…I see where you’re attempting to go with this…
    We are no longer under the old covenant “The Mosaic Covenant” (shell fish, blended fabrics and the like) because Jesus came to fulfill those laws (Matt 5:17)
    this is also why we no longer have to make burnt offerings anymore, but Jesus gave us the new laws or “The New Covenant” which we should all try to live by.
    Thanks for asking though, and if you are going to claim to know the bible, you really should read it first.

  • Heterosexuals can enter into a legitimate marriage, have children and raise them in a loving home. By definition, this is something that sexual perverts are incapable of doing. And yes, God will laugh them to derision as He casts them into perdition

  • All govts are some kind of theocracy – the only variable is which god they serve. The modern USSA and people like you serve a god of self-will, rebellion and perversion – to your eventual doom.

  • Marc, I respectfully have to call you on that. Theologians and Christian scholars have wavered, debated, changed opinions, even separated into different denominations. As new science emerges, new histories are discovered, and a better understanding of the life and times of the old and new testament is understood it is only natural that doctrine would change as well. If we didn’t understand and accept that we would still believe slavery and misogyny were God ordained.

  • Thank you for your response. I would say any debate on this issue should revolve around what God’s word says.

    It won’t matter in eternity how much love and concern gays show for each other if they have never repented of their sin and turned to Christ.

    I’ve seen every argument for same sex sexual activity and every argument for it fails in its premise.
    Rom. 3:4 …let God be found true though every man be found a liar…

  • Every. Single. Statement…. ever made about the “truth” of scripture is an interpretation. Yours, mine, the most learned biblical scholar. It is the very nature of faith. You don’t have all the answers and neither do I. But Jesus told His followers how to live their faith in an ungodly world (in the sermon on the mount). He told them to carry the armor of those evil, pagan, ungodly Roman soldiers TWICE as far as the laws of the land decreed as a demonstration of Gods love. You know, the same soldiers He knew would someday nail Him to a cross and march His followers to their death in the collisiums. That’s how Christ taught His followers to treat others. Nothing about judging them. I for one plan to err on the side of “Love thy God with all your heart and love your nieghbor as yourself”. When I stand before the God of all creation I’ll take my chances that He wanted me to love, not cast judgement. The Good Samaritan was taught (by his religious traditions) not to ever even touch a Jew, and vice versa. Yet he cleaned his wounds, he got blood and sweat and dirt all over himself as he carried him to an inn and then paid the inn keeper to care for him. Not one word about judging him, converting him, condemning him. Just love. Martha wanted her sister to busy herself with all the minutiae she thought was important, but Christ scolded her saying the only thing that mattered was loving Him. The rest was of no use to Him. That’s the example I’m trying to follow. Jesus’ message was never about teaching Christians to cast dispersions on others. That’s illustrated over and over again by the pharisee’s, the zealots loudly proclaiming that Jesus was a heretic and a blasphemer who willing broke the sabbath and exposed them as hypocrites. You’ll be hard pressed to find one single verse attributed to Christ that sanctions that behavior from His followers. That is the Modern Fundamentalist Evangelical “reinterpretation” of scripture.

  • “Most faculty don’t support same gender marriage” means some do. And those who do are allowed to stay. Interesting.

  • You cannot know church history or historical church theology on this particular subject; it had never changed.

  • You are a spiritually lost soul my friend. Yoy are not aligned with traditional historical church theology. Homosexuality was, is, and always will be sinful.

  • No such thing as former gay or lesbian,we are here to stay untill the Tangerine Messiah is in jail.

  • Romans 1 tells us that homosexuality is a consequence of idolatry. In this day and age, we idolize ourselves.

    I’ve seen several people become gay. In every case there was some kind of parental abuse or neglect involved. In every case, the young people were crying out for attention, for help. As a result, they made poor choices.

  • Our sexuality indeed is influenced by genetics. Why are people born transgender, bisexual, gay, lesbian, straight? Check with mainstream science sites about sexuality and genetics. Modern science, biology, medicine, psychology, common sense AND the testimony of people on their own discovery of their orientation and identity sheds light on the issue of Why there are gays, lesbians, trans people. Genes are involved.

  • Wow! Where do I begin? First of all, I don’t know about “the vast majority of contemporary evangelical scholars and theologians” disagreeing with homosexuality not being sinful. I am not sure where you would even get such statistics. I suppose I could just as easily say most non-fundamentalist Christian scholars would disagree with you. 2nd, lust and infidelity are not being discussed (to my knowledge) in this post. Lust and infidelity are a completely different topic then homosexuality. Lastly, a different interpretation of porneia of prostitution, fornication, and being morally filthy.

  • Along reading the Bible, we need to read more of Peterson’s books in order to know him better. Peterson could become quite sarcastic when comes to the hypothetical “if”s.