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Nearly 100 sex abuse suits against Catholic priests rock island of Guam

Archbishop Anthony Apuron stands in front of the Dulce Nombre de Maria Cathedral Basilica in Hagatna, Guam, in November 2014. The U.S. territory of Guam, where almost everyone is Catholic, has been ripped apart by claims the archbishop abused altar boys. Apuron has denied allegations he molested multiple altar boys. (AP Photo/Grace Garces Bordallo)

HAGÅTÑA, Guam — It started off innocently: a 15-year-old boy helping out at San Miguel, a local church named for Archangel Michael.

There was yardwork and cleaning, followed by invitations to the rectory to eat and watch TV. Soon, there were offers to drink sacramental wine and watch X-rated movies. Then sexual assault.

More than 50 times over three years.

By the parish priest.

Those jarring allegations come from a recent lawsuit claiming assault from 1985 to 1988. It is one of nearly 100 lawsuits that describe rampant child sexual abuse by some of Guam’s most revered men: the Catholic clergy.

An investigation by the USA Today Network’s Pacific Daily News unearthed allegations of decades of assault, manipulation and intimidation of children reared on this remote, predominantly Catholic U.S. territory.  Among the accusations: a boy fondled on the way to his grandmother’s burial, and another molested for the first time on his seventh birthday, then raped or assaulted 100 more times.

The children’s steadfast faith in the island’s priests made them vulnerable, the lawsuits say. Accuser William Payne’s parents “had raised him to honor and respect the priest, and told him that he had to do what the priest told him to do,” according to his lawsuit.  He had “been instilled with the belief that clergy are never wrong, and that the clergy were like Jesus.”

The lawsuits and other public statements collectively claim that priests preyed on children for nearly four decades.

Archbishop Anthony Apuron, 13 Guam priests and others, including a Catholic schoolteacher, a Catholic school janitor  and a Boy Scout leader, are alleged to be sexual predators. Guam’s Archdiocese of Agana is a defendant in 96 lawsuits.

The complaints detail alleged attacks from 1955 through 1994 and claim some religious leaders knew of the exploitation and ignored it. One retired priest, who admitted in an affidavit that he sexually abused 20 or more boys, still receives a monthly stipend from the archdiocese.

The accusations also ensnare the Boy Scouts of America, where that priest also served as a scoutmaster. The scouting group is named as a co-defendant in 52 lawsuits.

While clergy abuse is well-documented elsewhere in the U.S. and in cities around the world, a similar pattern of allegations in Guam has gone largely unnoticed outside this tiny island. The accusations only recently caught the attention of the Vatican.

In June 2016, Pope Francis suspended Apuron, who has since been accused in four lawsuits of sexually abusing four altar boys in the 1970s. The Vatican is now trying him in a secret procedure that could lead to him being dismissed from the clergy, also known as being laicized.

Apuron has denied the abuse charges via statements on video and through written statements issued by the archdiocese. His attorney has filed motions to dismiss lawsuits against him.

Apuron’s Vatican trial is “very, very rare, and the reason it’s rare is because the Vatican or the popes have protected the bishops,” says Dominican priest Tom Doyle, a specialist in canon, or church, law who advocates for abuse victims.

In this undated file photo, the Rev. Louis Brouillard, right, receives a Boy Scouts of America Silver Beaver Award from Navy Capt. Leon Eisman. The award, which recognizes exceptional character and distinguished service, was the first given to a Scouter on Guam. Brouillard was a scoutmaster. (Photo: Pacific Daily News)

Complaints against the Boy Scouts say the group ignored the priest abuse and enabled clergy to prey on young boys.  At times the church required Guam altar boys join the Boy Scouts, and Boy Scouts were encouraged to serve in the church, according to lawsuits.

The Guam lawsuits join a steady stream of accusations against Catholic clergy. In June, Pope Francis aide Cardinal George Pell was charged with “historical sexual offenses” by authorities in his native Australia. Pell denied the charges.

The Boston clergy sex abuse scandal is one of the most high-profile examples of clergy abuse.  Yet, Guam’s sexual abuse controversy appears to have seeped more deeply into its smaller community. The population of Guam — an island about 3,800 miles west of Hawaii — is fewer than 163,000 people.

Scandal runs deep

The accusations touch the personal and professional lives of many here. All eight of Guam’s trial court judges, for instance, have recused themselves from at least some lawsuits, saying they have familial or business ties to either the plaintiffs or the defendants, court documents show.

The deluge of Guam abuse claims arrived after lawmakers passed a bill in September 2016 retroactively eliminating the statute of limitations for civil lawsuits involving child sexual abuse. The criminal statute of limitations was lifted in 2011 but can’t be applied retroactively.

Attorneys for the archdiocese, Apuron and the Boy Scouts, as well as two accused clergy members have filed motions to dismiss the lawsuits, arguing that the law lifting the statute of limitations for civil claims in child sexual abuse cases is unconstitutional.

The archdiocese has said it takes all allegations “very seriously.”

“We care deeply about every person who steps forward and we look forward to a full resolution of all cases,” the archdiocese said in a July 28 news release.   The Vatican didn’t reply to requests for comment.

The Boy Scouts “deeply regrets that there have been times when scouts were abused” and has developed safeguards, such as not allowing a leader to be alone with a child, scout Aloha Council CEO Jeff Sulzbach said in a statement.

The lawsuits filed in the District Court of Guam and the Superior Court of Guam claim pervasive incidents of abuse.  Some examples:

  • In the 1970s, Apuron molested Roy Taitague Quintanilla, then 12, and raped Walter Denton, then 13, according to Quintanilla’s and Denton’s respective lawsuits.
  • In 1988, then-priest Raymond Cepeda threw Timothy Ryan Shiroma, then around age 9, to a basilica office floor and got on top of him, according to Shiroma’s lawsuit. When Shiroma began to cry, Cepeda allegedly unzipped a backpack, pushed Shiroma’s head inside and sexually assaulted him.  A separate lawsuit filed by a man identified as B.B.J. says that in 1982, Cepeda officiated a funeral Mass for his grandmother, then fondled him during the car ride to the cemetery. Cepeda was defrocked in 2009.
  • Between 1985 and 1988, then-priest Andrew Mannetta is said to have sexually assaulted a victim, identified only as N.Q. in his lawsuit.
  • Priest Ray Techaira, now deceased, allegedly molested a plaintiff,  identified only as J.A., on the day J.A. turned 7 in 1984.
  • Priest and scoutmaster Louis Brouillard is claimed to have raped and molested a victim identified only as A.N.D. during Boy Scout summer jamboree campouts in 1974 and 1975.

Brouillard has been named as an abuser in 55 lawsuits. He admitted in an affidavit in October 2016 that he sexually abused 20 or more boys on the island.

Reached by the Pacific Daily News by phone after he was named as an abuser in a Guam Legislature hearing last summer, Brouillard said “it’s possible” he abused altar boys on the island.

Brouillard hasn’t filed a legal response and couldn’t be reached for additional comment.

The Archdiocese of Agana still provides Brouillard, 96, with a monthly stipend of $550.

Do what the priests say

Catholicism has long been an integral part of life on this Western Pacific island.

“Since the 17th century, Catholic churches have been the center of village activities,” proclaims the Guam Visitors Bureau on a website describing the culture of its native Chamorro population.

About 85 percent of its residents are Catholic, populating 26 parishes on an island just 30 miles long.

Extreme reverence for church leadership, paired with Guam’s remote location, left abused children geographically trapped with few places to go for help, says Joelle Casteix, a volunteer regional director of the support group Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, known as SNAP.

Some accusers say they were too terrified to tell their devout parents, while others told adults but weren’t believed, according to the lawsuits.

In at least two lawsuits, accusers said the abuse was reported to local police decades ago. However, the Guam Police Department recently said it has no record of the reports, which would not have been retained because the statute of limitations for criminal prosecution passed long ago.

“I was told outright that victims were scared that they would be shunned from their families, kicked out of the church, lose their jobs, or that by speaking out against the church or Apuron, they would threaten the financial security of their loved ones,” Casteix says.

Power beyond the pulpit

Apuron, the second native Chamorro archbishop and once an altar boy himself, led the Catholic faithful here for three decades.

He readily used his stature as spiritual leader to help shape political decisions. In one instance, he threatened to excommunicate any Catholic lawmaker who voted against a measure that outlawed all abortions except when necessary to save the life of the mother.

Yet, in recent years, Apuron faced detractors who criticized him for how he handled church real estate and finances. In December 2014, disgruntled civic leaders formed Concerned Catholics of Guam, a nonprofit group that called for greater financial transparency from the archdiocese and for Apuron’s resignation.

In this Nov. 27, 1987, photo, Monsignor Tomas Camacho, right, is congratulated by Archbishop Anthony Apuron, left, after being named the new bishop for the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands. (Photo: Pacific Daily News)

In May 2016, Concerned Catholics ran a full-page ad in local newspapers including the Pacific Daily News urging sexual abuse victims to come forward. The ad listed specific dates and locations, each corresponding to Apuron’s service dates and parishes.

Nine days after the Concerned Catholics ad came out, Quintanilla, one of Apuron’s accusers, held a news conference to accuse the archbishop of molesting him. Then Doris Concepcion, the mother of former altar boy Joseph “Sonny” Quinata, said in an interview that soon before Quinata died, he told her Apuron abused him.

On June 6, 2016, Pope Francis stripped Apuron of his administrative authority and installed a temporary apostolic administrator, Archbishop Michael Byrnes of Detroit to run the Guam archdiocese.

The Vatican tribunal’s discovery phase of Apuron’s trial has ended, and a group of judges are deliberating on his fate.

Last week, a federal judge agreed to temporarily halt proceedings in most of the clergy sex abuse lawsuits so they can go through an out-of-court settlement process. The church’s financial arm has identified dozens of its island properties that could be sold to help finance the settlements. The church also has set up a “Hope and Healing Guam” initiative to provide counseling for victims.

Apuron still officially holds the title of archbishop.

Some still have faith

Some lawsuit plaintiffs say the alleged abuse damaged their spirituality, and at least one abandoned the Catholic Church.

Yet, many retained their religious beliefs.

On the island, resident Mae Reyes Ada, 74, says she sometimes feels embarrassed and guilty that she did not speak up when she first heard rumors of clergy abuse in the 1970s. “The mentality at the time was you don’t say anything bad about the church and the priests,” she says, adding that she didn’t have proof.

“We should have, and we could have, done something a long time ago,” says Ada, who joined the peaceful protests to have Apuron permanently removed from the clergy.

Members and supporters of the Laity Forward Movement and the Concerned Catholics of Guam protest against Archbishop Anthony Apuron in front of the Dulce Nombre de Maria Cathedral-Basilica in Hagatna on Jan. 29, 2017. (Photo by Frank San Nicolas, Pacific Daily News)

Despite the scandal, she says, her religious conviction has only intensified.

“The church is going through purging and cleansing,” she says. “It takes somebody with a strong faith to fight this war.”

And one young island resident — born after the alleged abuse took place — stands ready to make sure the church flourishes.

“I’m here to help these people in their fight against the evils that have infiltrated our church,” Jaden Comon, 14, said during a July protest to have Apuron removed.

Comon’s aspiration: to become a priest.

“As young people, we are the future of the church,” he says. “It’s our responsibility, especially when we were baptized in the faith, to come and help.”

(The USA Today Network’s Pacific Daily News wrote this story. Contributing: Nichelle Smith, USA Today; Eric J. Lyman, USA Today)

About the author

Yonat Shimron

Yonat Shimron is an RNS National Reporter and Senior Editor.

237 Comments

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  • You are, I trust, implying that other organisations are equally deserving of such attention rather than that the RCC should not face enquiries relating to alleged abuse.

    It does, does it not, seem that the RCC has developed a habit for popping up in front of the sights with a target painted on its forehead.

  • Not at all….I normally don’t support the RCC as I have a lot of differences with them, that said, two articles anti-RCC is a bit much.
    The abuse, unfortunately, is all over the different denominations – not just the RCC.

  • There’s also a favorable article about the Feast of the Transfiguration and John Henry Newman.

  • These are not anti-RCC articles at all, but it does show how blind you are.
    These mofo’s are attacking children, and you see it as anti Christian.
    These are articles detailing the perversities of the RCC church, with its child molestation issues going back at least 1000 years.

  • hmmmm….let’s see…..where do we start?
    Ok.. I said, “It must be pick on RCC day today.”
    Ben says, “These are not anti-RCC articles at all, but it does show how blind you are.”
    ok…..I said…”Not at all….I normally don’t support the RCC as I have a lot of differences with them, that said, two articles anti-RCC is a bit much.
    The abuse, unfortunately, is all over the different denominations – not just the RCC.”
    Ben said, “These mofo’s are attacking children, and you see it as anti Christian…These are articles detailing the perversities of the RCC church, with its child molestation issues going back at least 1000 years.”
    I think Ben has a problem with the RCC and wanted to turn that hatred and blame onto me…….
    lol

  • no suprise as the catlick church is a world wide pedophile ring.
    remember the last clown in a silly hat and dress found not guilty when charged with child crimes?
    me either.

  • I don’t understand why Catholics don’t throw out Catholicism. If they have to belong to a religion there are other choices that don’t have child abuse.

  • Apuron’s title, honors and benefits were not removed by Pope Francis. He was allowed to leave and was tracked down and found living in California.There will be “extreme secrecy” in his upcoming the canonical Vatican trial Patrick Wall, victims’ advocate, wrote.

  • As a catholic, we believe the faith, and as a catholic I do not respect our leadership. These men who abuse and cover it up need to be purged and many others would agree. That does not mean that the faith is corrupt, but that leaders are corrupt. I am no papist taking everything coming from the Vatican as true, but I listen and reflect for they have shown themselves liars.

    Why should catholics throw catholicism? Why not throw out the constitution and every other good thing about this country because politicians are corrupt liars as well. Leadership is not the voice of the people in a lot of cases, and if everyone would commit themselves to integrity we would be removing the rubbish and finding better leaders.

  • Thanks for your reply. You asked “Why should catholics throw catholicism?”

    Here’s one reason: When you put your cash in the collection plate it’s used to pay the legal bills for numerous atrocities against children. Personally I would rather not subsidize these disgusting people.

    By the way I used to be a Catholic. In 1967 I threw it out because I realized it’s not really a religion. It’s a business, a very lucrative business.

    A few years later I threw out theism. These days I prefer reality which has the advantage of being interesting and real.

    Fantasy or reality. Take your pick.

    Being a slave who has to obey rules or being a free person. Take your pick.

  • You were never Catholic. That’s what you need to really come to grips with. At some point, you will.

  • There is only one religion, Bob. That established by Christ: the Catholic Church. You literally can take that or leave it and live (eternally) with the consequences. That’s the way He set it up. The Church is composed of three elements. What we are dealing with here is the Church Militant which is and always has been run by men, all of whom are sinners. That’s the way He set it up as well.

    You’re conflating the faith and the Church with rotten priests and bishops. Asking why Catholicism isn’t “thrown out” is akin to asking why we don’t throw out the police department because we discover a bunch of crooked cops on the take.

    What we do have to throw out are the fags that are in the priesthood. Every last one of them. They currently infest Christ’s Church. There is the problem.

  • I can assure you they have not gotten much money from me over the years as I do not attend mass regularly (if at all) as I totally agree with your perspective of subsidizing their criminal activities. I don’t even trust the poor boxes any more.

  • “or leave it and live (eternally) with the consequences”

    You just threatened me with eternal torture. That makes you a terrorist.This is how religious cults defend themselves, with threats. Guess what. That doesn’t work. It just increases the contempt normal people have for religions.

  • I can understand your frustration but God is sovereign. Jesus said He will build His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Remember the wheat and tares parable too.
    But using terms like “fags” is wrong. Why don’t you edit it out – for me. Please.

  • How charming.

    A deliberate conflation of homosexuality with child molesting priests, every one of which will insist to high heaven that they are not homosexual, in fact, that they hate, err love, err tolerate those icky gay people almost as much as you do.

    Homsexual hating homosexuals and child molesting priests do indeed infest your church, just as they infest conservative religion everywhere. They AND you attack decent gay people on a regular basis.

    It’s what you do.

  • The Pope needs to rescind Pope Puis XI’s 1922 document, Crimen Sollicitationis, that mandates, in a complete departure from all Church tradition, absolute secrecy regarding clergy sex abuse, including prohibition of reporting to civil authority. Until the Pope’s document, the Church was very strict on abusers, who were kicked out of the priesthood and handed over to secular authorities for prosecution, including severe penalties, sometimes even the death penalty.

    Pope Puis XI turned that on it’s head, cloaking priest sex abuse in silence and secrecy, protecting and moving around abusive priests, and every Pope since has upheld the document, including John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis. It is still in effect today globally, and has wreaked havoc in the Church. But every Pope has the power to rescind it. Catholics need to get educated and demand our prelates rescind the document, return to authentic tradition, expose abusers and drive them out of the Church.

    Read the Amazon preview in a detailed book about it, a real eye-opener most Catholics know nothing about: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1921511451/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I1O8JGB13YWA4Y&colid=36MI5TW003IF4

  • Without questioning the sincerity of anyones faith nor belief in God, It remains implausible to me that the abominable nature this institutional and individual betrayal against children, their parents and against God could come from a source that makes authentic historical claims to teach and speak for a moral and spiritual conception that is from God.

    It is time to remember that not only the RCC but all of Christology is a human theological construct. That ones faith is not directly in God or Jesus but in the theological interpretation of those names. And the authority of tradition is not part of any criteria for truth and abuse by its institutional forms is regularly manifest throughout history. When founded upon error, it is equally capable of perpetuating
    prejudice and falsehood from one generation to the next as furthering any particular ideals of
    truth, virtue, or wisdom. ‘Know them by their fruit”

    History, that final of all judges, has discarded uncountable examples of tradition
    into its own dustbin of oblivion. Real progress in the world has often required that uncomfortable
    business of discarding baseless reason and useless institution. The process, if often crude, is called
    revolution. The bloody chore of prying men loose from the myths they have created about
    themselves, for themselves. Thus I have to wonder if on Christ’s second coming, if that event will be to confirm any particular faith tradition or expose and correct our understanding of the Father. Or as noted in Dante’s Divine Comedy:

    For as I turned, there greeted mine likewise
    What all behold who contemplate aright,
    That’s Heaven’s revolution through the skies.

  • I should “throw out Catholicism” because of clergy and others who flout the moral demands of Catholicism? That makes no sense. What makes more sense is to assure that all Catholics abide by what our Church teaches.

  • That’s a good one.

    Of all the abuse by priests you’ve read in this piece, how many of them were against girls?

    If a pedophile targets only boys, what do you think must be behind that motivation?

    It’s interesting that while you’re happy to recognize that clergy were involved in pedophilia, you are just as happy to pretend it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Well, it does, almost all of it.

  • Robert, if you have any belief in the Bible, it answers your questions.
    “if that event will be to confirm any particular faith tradition or expose and correct our understanding of the Father.”
    Jesus spoke of the last days and compared them to another worid-ending catastrophe, the flood of Noah’s day. You can read that for yourself at Mt 24:37-39. Notice also vv. 49-42. There will be no collateral damage.
    But which “particular faith tradition”, if any? Well, how many arks did Yahweh tell Noah to build? Just one. And 2Pet 2:5 days Noah and his family did another task while building the ark. They were ‘preachers of righteousness’, giving a warning of coming disaster. Although few paid attention, and none took advantage of the offer, the warning went on. Find a group that’s doing that work today.
    BTW it’s common to talk about “the end of the world”. If that idea bothers you, get the Bible’s view at 2Pet 3:7. You’ll learn just what it is that will be ended.

  • The Catholic Church, which I largely respect, does not have a monopoly on the practice of Christian faith.

  • While genuinely newsworthy, RNS sometimes seems to have an obsession with stories framed around human sexual practice, rarely to our edification. The RCC does have much to answer for in that respect, but there are a host of other compelling stories that need reporting as well. Sadly, uplifting and affirming stories of faith are hard to find here, and when they are reported, most of us rarely comment on them. In a famous movie from the mid-century, Kirk Douglas played a news reporter who, when he could not find a “good” story, would gin one up out of nothing, always framed from a dim perspective. His character justified it by saying, in effect: Bad news sells…good news is no news at all. That, all too often is both how the news is reported and the target audience tends to receive it.

  • That could be simply a question of access. The access is there for boys, not girls so much.

    And of course, you confuse and conflate homosexuality with pedophilia, obviously deliberately. Or you simply don’t know much about the usbject of pedophilia. I don’t have a huge Amon t of time to point out to exactly how the bulk of men who molest boys are either pedophiles, or men considered by themselves, heir communities, and hteirvdmailies to be heterosexual. Jerry Sandusky, anyone?

    But here’s the question for you. Maybe you can see the prejudice you are operating under.

    Why is it that the men who molest boys are called homosexuals, but the men who molest girls are called child molesters? The vast majority of child molestation is on girls. Fully half of it is their own fathers.

    In any case. Your child molesting priests have a vocation, a literal calling from god. So why does god call child molesting priests to the priesthood?

  • Sex sells and sexual impropriety sells even more and sexual abuse against children in traditional churches sells the most.

  • “if you have any belief in the Bible” No I don’t. That collection of docs was a choice made, from a much larger scriptural record, by an early roman church, in the failed attempt to impose orthodoxy. It is not even complete. Consider the ‘recent’ discoveries such as the Dead Sea Scroll and Nag Hammadi Library and non canonical texts. What else is still to be discovered. And just as the scriptural record is incomplete so is our understanding of the Father. The presumption that the Bible is a complete ‘revelation’ of Christ’s gospel is a myth of tradition. Not to mention whether natural reason, called theology, is even a valid human intellectual project capable of comprehending the mind of God. As far as I am concerned, what exists from history and tradition in the name of Christ is no more then a theological counterfeit. Waiting to be exposed and destroyed at the second coming.

  • Robert, your complaint about Bible provenance is a common one. But two of the sources you cite, Nag Hammadi and the Scrolls, confirm the Bible’s long-term accuracy. Please do some research on them.
    The non-canonical* texts are just that, and for a reason. Jerome, reading them at a date much closer to their writing, said they were fraudulent on their faces. They were not written by their attributed authors and they contradicted the canon and even recorded history on every major point. The accepted Bible on the other hand is internally consistent. This, in spite of being written by about 40 people over 1600 years. We have less certainty about Shakespeare, commonly taught in our schools.
    Even nonbelievers have noted the Bible’s honesty. Moses, David, Peter and others made serious errors in their lives that are part of their ‘permanent employment record’, as we might say. Is that openness common with organizations you deal with?
    Please do more research.

    *I refer here to the Gnostic and other writings of the Christian era. The question of the Apocrypha, in authorized Catholic translations, is for another time.

  • Lol! I think you’re grasping at straws here. Burying your head in sand doesn’t make it go away.

    Why is there a vast majority of abuse with girls? Obviously nearly all mankind is heterosexual. Do you somehow imagine that being a pedophile deprives a perpetrator the ability to distinguish between the sexes?

    All child abusers are molesters, whether heterosexual or homosexual. You rightly mention that homosexual molestation is a minority, you fail to mention that bisexual molestation is a fraction of the homosexual abuse. What this simply means is that because sex with children is called pedophilia does not mean that perpetrators target all children irrespective of their sex. Their targets are determined by their orientation.

    The other thing is that homosexual pedophiles tend to have many more victims AND many more homosexuals are disposed to having sex with children, this is precisely why such a small group is responsible for the crisis that’s plaguing the Church today.

  • If agreement on Biblical interpretation was consistent throughout history your narrative might hold water, but your ship is sinking. Your orthodoxy in taters, your moral credibility gone, your pope reduced to populist rhetoric and curia infighting. History is against you for good reason. The ideas the RCC propagates have no relevance, if they ever did, to the modern world or the future. You are an institution build on vanity that tried to reach for the sky and failed and your destruction, along with all ‘Christian’ claims, is to be a lesson for all humanity of just how far reasoned ignorance can carry the step of man in absence of both true revelation and secure knowledge of God.

  • There are many found not guilty. They are just not publicized. It usually takes around 2-3 years now for a priest to clear his name and be placed back in ministry. The police do their investigation while the priest is placed on suspension. With these types of crimes people are presumed guilty until proven innocent for safety reasons. Someone cleared of wrongdoing is not interesting enough to make the papers.

  • So what is being said is three priests (3 thrown out of the priesthood) and the present native born bishop ( in the process of being disciplined thrown out) molested boys. Why mention Pell? It’s a different context and different motives for his being charged. These disgusting sins and crimes were perpetrated in the past. We know Catholics know the lgbt ideology and sexualisation of children came into the seminaries and Church institutions in the 1960’s making a problem even worse. These vile sins are used by those who promote abortion, lgbt ideology, euthanasia, eugenics to destroy trust in Christ and our cultures ethical framework. All Catholics want these perpetrators brought to justice. Justice is based on truth not false accusations motivated by hatred. Catholics want the truth to be told and those who committed these sins to be punished and victims supported. It is better for the truth to be told despite the shock and demoralisation so that the vice be exposed and dealt with.

  • Robert sexual use of children and other vices were part of the preChristain world. Judaism and Christianity opposed these things and wants them exposed and gone. These vices and inclination are going to occur and it would be unrealistic to think otherwise. Those with these evil inclinations no matter where they inhabit will lie and act out their perverse damaged and damaging behaviours. The world is fall of fallen humans yet perhaps an ideal and guide such as those Judaeo Christian hold as true can transform the world. Society and Catholic Church are full of Luke warm and nominally moral humans who find the reality of these vices more easily dealt with by ignoring Christs rule. They are as he would tell them hypocrites who have no will to change. I blame the individuals involved because they knew what was demanded of them but decided to do an evil. It’s the same for all of the seven vices. Look at the way in which the atrocity of abortion, eugenics and euthanasia are peddled and normalised in our own times despite the witness of the past and history.

  • Robert your smart enough to see through theological fashion and see that the ideas you put toward are just distortions like those of paedophiles who want to belong to hide in the Church while distorting and ignoring bits that don’t suit their vices. The plain fact the truth is born out by continuity and the breach and falsification is to be found in the ideas you put forward. The bible is a collections of books and the gospels the memories of the apostles or those that knew and spoke to them. The faith was lived and the scriptures are part of that accumulation of faiths experience and truth. The bible is like a layered in time deposit written and handed on. Christianity is not fakery.

  • The document you mention is about how to deal with sins confessed in the confessional or within the Sacrament of Penance. The reason silence was required is because of the seal which protects the penitents and the confidentiality of words spoken to God. The sacrament of Penance has been abused for sexual purposes in the past.

  • I was involved in the field for several years. I have a masters in public health and another in sociology. And nearly every authority in the civilized world disagrees with you and your logic. The John jay report, which the catholic bishops approved, states categorically that it is not a homosexual problem, but a pedophile problem.

    Pedophiles are are pedophiles. They are attracted to children. The issue is indeed access, among others.

    It is categorically not a homosexual problem. But it is most assuredly a catholic problem. Specifically, the culture of abuse is catholic, the culture of cover ups and avoiding “a scandal in the church” is a catholic problem. This was documented bySt. Peter Damien 1000 years ago.

    Your statement that homosexuals being disposed to having sex with children is simply nonsense, refuted by every bit of evidence we have, and not supported by any credible sources– you certainly didn’t cite any–, professional organizations involved with the subject, or anything but prejudice and bigotry. It’s an old, old old prejudice, and is useful both for demonizing gay people and deflecting blame from the perpetrators.

    But you go ahead. Obviously, you have no more conscience on the subject than does the subject of this article.

  • Whatever events took place two thousand years ago, and I don’t doubt something very profound happened, but what ever it was was lost. And the all too human theological attempt to comprehend what Christ revealed and his apostles taught has been an intellectual self deception of epic historical proportions. ‘Christianity’ is indeed a theological fake.

    The true church is only now beginning with the first wholly new interpretation for two thousand years of the moral teachings of Christ. Distinguishing itself from all other truth claims, radically different from anything else known of from theology or history, this new teaching is predicated upon the ‘promise’ called the Word, of a precise, predefined, predictable and repeatable experience of transcendent omnipotence and called ‘the first Resurrection’ in the sense that the Resurrection of Jesus was intended to demonstrate Gods’ willingness to reveal Himself and intervene directly into the natural world for those obedient to His Command, paving the way for access to the power of divine Will and ultimate proof as the justification for faith.

    It’s only a matter of time before sufficient numbers of individuals confirm this
    teaching to establish the moral insight of this ‘Resurrection’ as an absolute, irrefutable fact, with all the implications that suggests.

    So like it or no, a new religious teaching, testable by faith, meeting all Enlightenment criteria of evidence based causation [God] and definitive proof now exists. Nothing short of an intellectual, moral and religious revolution is getting under way. And I’m TESTING this for myself right now. Goodby theology and goodby RCC.

  • Being subject to the corruptions and moral limitations of natural law together with a profound ignorance of God was and remains mans punishment for that first disobedience. And religion, by any name, has yet to ‘repair’ that damage for the singular reason that it has nothing to do with Christ or God. Existing tradition is no more than paganism with a scriptural spin laid on top to hide the absence of a divine pedigree.

  • I have a friend, a pediatrician, whose sad duty it is sometimes to testify at molestation trials. He says every religious group has pedophiles. Every one.
    This shouldn’t surprise. The Bible says that we are each, individually, imperfect and sinful. Something we got from Adam as a genetic defect. The Bible offers something better, but it won’t be attained by following the “traditions of men”. Mr 7:8.
    In any case, the problem has to be solved from the other direction. The organization will stay where it is; the people will have to leave. This they are doing, as we see from any number of Catholic blogs.

  • Since you’ve cited ‘so many’ sources and you’re so educated, can you tell me why the Vatican has directed ALL Catholic seminaries the world over to actively try to identify and deny persons of homosexual inclination from joining the seminary and from being ordained priests?

    Example:

    “In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called ‘gay culture’.”

    You can read the whole thing here from 2005: http://www.vatican.va/romancuria/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rcconccatheducdoc20051104istruzione_en.html

    This is a direct fallout of investigations into the sexual abuse crisis. Homosexuality is related to several difficulties, very high rate of promiscuity, disease, violence, and yes, pedophilia. In part I speak from direct personal experience. I also have to say also that emphasizing the few instances that pretend neutrality does society no good, it only draws more people into the hell hole of sexual depravity.

  • No. It’s just more of the same deflection onto innocent people, but also a reflection of the certain knowledge that a lot of men flee to the church as a refuge from their sexuality, whether they are gay, or whether they are pedophiles.

    I’ve known several ex seminarians. To a man, they all said they entered the seminary in order to escape their sexuality. And to a man, they all said that they saw more sex going on in the inside of the seminary than they ever did outside.

    It’s all about–again– preventing a scandal in the church.

    It to mention, the same old obsession with sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular. Get the gays, blame the gays, create a mythical gay mafia that actually runs the Vatican. It’s the same old crap. Demonize, pathologize, other-ize.

    Again, you cannot be a priest without a vocation, a literal calling from God. The church claims they have the means to determine a genuine vocation, because so many do not. So is god calling gay men to the priest hood? is god callingpedophiles and pedophile enablers to the priesthood?

  • The record shows many offenses against girls. The catamite stories get more ink.
    In any case, many here are judging by men’s standards, not God’s. 1Cor 6:9,10 has a list of offenses that will keep one out of heaven. Therefore it’s God’s list, not man’s. Homosexuality is in there; so are [heterosexual] adultery, drunkenness, reviling, covetousness… Do you find a ranking of sins in it? I don’t.
    A Christian should use God’s standards.

  • I thought you were interested in the truth. “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.”

    Here’s a truth for you. A lot of people claim their antigay bigotry, hatred, and despite is really just their religious belief. But no. That’s just what they hide behind.

    Our boy above said what was actually on his mind. Unfortunately for a certain class of so called Christian, it simply exposes the actual truth behind their christian love, heir christian concern with sin, and their Christian obsession with the sex lives of others.

    What’s not to like? PErsonally. I prefer when people are honest. Don’t you?

  • Why gloss over the reports of demons? could it be that it’s just not true? could it be that people who report demons are uniformly believers?

  • Did Jesus report the conversation himself? no.

    Was the person who reported the conversation there?

    People who believe in demons will believe just about anything.

  • I didn’t say girls have not been victims, I’m saying that the dramatic difference has something to say.

    Willful engagement in sin is a sure road to damnation, this does not mean that they are of equal weight. There’s a difference in depravity between fornication by an unmarried couple and adultery. There’s a difference in depravity between heterosex and homosex. There’s a difference in depravity between human sex and bestiality. There’s a difference in depravity between sex with a living person and a corpse. There’s a difference between rape and consensual sex. Each of these categories indicate the depth of self depredation a person is giving himself up to and the subsequent difficulty of being willing or able to draw oneself out. Yes, all will end in condemnation but some are more salvageable condition than others.

    Besides all these, who is campaigning for the glorification or normalization of adultery etc.? What’s so good about homosexuality that it should have privileged status?

  • You’re entitled to think so. I think the same thing, but about you. And I certainly recognize the same old lies, prejudices masked as truth, and deflection.

    This is why the problem of child molestation continues. Too many people are far to willing to blame the stranger andthe other, rather than look at the actual reality.

    The best example, and quite parallel to the Catholic Church, is the Boy Scouts. It also illustrates how ignorant you are about this subject. For decades, they banned gay scoutmasters and gay scouts. For decades, they demonized gay people as the threat. For decades, they preferred their scout masters to be married to certify their heterosexual cred. For decades they had a molestation problem, which for decades they covered up, Roman Catholic style, even allowing these pervs back into the scouts.

    So who was doing the molesting ? Men identified by themselves, their families, their communities, and their churches as heterosexuals. NOT HOMOSEXUAL, but heterosexual. Like Sandusky.

    The issues of child molestation are far more complex than people who hate gay people are willing to admit. That’s why the problem continues.

  • That’s my point, the mention of demons is fodder for skeptics to refuse looking at the actual facts.

    All I’m saying is, read the facts and come to your own conclusion.

  • I didn’t admonish him to spare your feelings. I did it because he identifies as a Christian.

  • I might have made those comments myself, but in a more tactful way. I’m not a Catholic.
    I am interested in religion, history, and in correcting the many misconceptions about the Bible. It is, after all, in the public domain [except in the UK, where the KJV is Crown property]. Why are people in such ignorance of it?
    Please do the research I suggested.

  • Hey, don’t just “test” it! Teach others this one and only truth you have! After all, it’s what the Christians’ Bible commands them to do. Mt 28:19,20

  • My point exactly.
    My feelings are not hurt by being called a fag, or a queer, or any of the other epithets bigots apply to me.
    I wear those as a badge of honor.

  • Joseph, your differences are man’s, not Yahweh’s, as Paul showed. One is either in good with God or not. “Gray areas” and “fence-sitting” are not Bible teachings; they’re in there only as negative examples. Please read 1Kings 18:21.

  • “These disgusting sins and crimes were perpetrated in the past.” for at least 1000 years, and that’s a fact. There is no reason to think they aren’t ongoing.

    “We know Catholics know the lgbt ideology” Do you mean the one that stops making us the villains of everything evil, the one that dem,ands freedom to live our lives, or the one that exists oslely inside your head?

    “and sexualisation of children” Nothing to with gay people.

    “came into the seminaries and Church institutions in the 1960’s making a problem even worse.”
    Nah, just made it public.

    “These vile sins are used by those who promote abortion, lgbt ideology, euthanasia, eugenics” Nope, you’re doing that all by yourselves.

    “to destroy trust in Christ and our culture’s ethical framework.” Antigay prejudice, blaming us for the sins of the heterosexual and religious majority has nothing to do with ethics. quite the opposite. The sins against us– the lies, the hatred, the prisons and murders and suicides, the blaming us for all social ills,– go back for centuries.

    “All Catholics want these perpetrators brought to justice.” Except for the bishops and the leaders of the church, and those who think that this is all some sort of a plot.

  • Not tolerating certain behavior is not hatred of the person, that’s your lie. Disliking stealing doesn’t mean that the thief is hated.

    That people portray themselves as heterosexuals doesn’t make that true. Your confidence in outward appearances is where your major problem lies.

  • ‘You could have been healed, my child, but you lack faith.’
    Many people think that statement is in the Bible. It is not.
    Here is a biblical definition of faith, Heb 11:1. “Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.” At “evident demonstration” the Gk is “of [unseen] things a conviction”.
    Here are two examples of faith in the unseen by the same writer. Rom 1:20. “For [God’s] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.” Inexcusable, he says.
    At another place he’s more direct, Heb 3:4. “Of course, every house is built by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” Of course, he says. No doubt you accept the truth of the first clause – of course you do. And most others do too. So why do evolutionists, enlightened ones all, choke on accepting the truth of the second, about the grandest construction we know of? Can that order of order come out of chaos? Of course not, you say. 🙂

  • Not tolerating behavior that harms no one except to offend you is not anything but intolerance. But the issue is what is directed at gay people. And that is frequently hate, no matter what people claim, no matter how much they claim they love the sinner but hate the sin.

    It is hardly a confidence in outward appearances. It is an understanding of the nuance that must be understood if we are to deal with this problem, rather than blaming people who have nothing to do with it.

    Sandusky is the perfect example. Conflating homosexuality with child molestation is as inaccurate as conflating heterosexuality with it. Of course that people portray themselves as heterosexuals doesn’t make that true. That was my point. And in fact, pedophiles have a sexual orientation: towards children. That is a fact. Here’s another one: fully 70-80% of child molestation is upon girls, and fully half is done by the father or step father.

  • Good catch. But it mentions one sin, without identifying it, that has rank. You ranked many, on your own initiative. Man’s thoughts, not God’s.
    So, what is that sin? Why is it superlatively bad? Who, if any , committed it?

  • And yet, a Christian must believe there is such a “monopoly”, somewhere – or no church at all.
    John 18:37. Jesus said “for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to THE truth.” Emphasis added. The most impolitic thing he could have said to that master politician.
    Gen 6:14. “Make for yourself AN ark.” Just one.
    Eph 4:5,6. “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all…”
    One man who belonged to a minority religion was asked, ‘Do you really think it’s the only true one?’ He replied, ‘Of course. If I didn’t I would go looking for the only true one.’ My sentiments, exactly.

  • Ben, I just noticed a post of yours in which you claim to have two Master’s degrees. I find this very hard to believe. Unless they were acquired from the Internet, I’m afraid I must rule them nonexistent.
    If not, your claim means that twice in your life you researched topics in ‘soft sciences’. You were required to write, and hand over for your adviser’s review and judgment, a defense of your ideas gathered from outside sources – from research. I’m aware that some were called primary sources, but that means only that they were documents purporting (!) to come from, say, Pavlov and not one of his dogs’ handlers. You have never met Pavlov, so you take the statements on faith, as did your adviser.
    Now, it’s clear to me that you haven’t done similar research into the Bible or Christianity, although I asked you to and directed you to reliable sources. I know this because I have done and am doing such research, going on thirty years now.
    I know what the Bible says; I’ve read it. I know what scholarly Catholics say about it and their own take on it, in the Catholic Encyclopedia at newadvent.org. [Free] I know what Schaff’s Ante-Nicene Fathers says about it, from the “Protestant” side. [http://www.ccel.org. Free.] I know what uncial script is and how it relates to poor translations and misunderstandings.
    I know that, within living memory, every newspaper editor worthy of the title had a Bible on his desk, and used it. [If they still did these days they would no longer get invited to the better cocktail parties.]
    I know what Wescott, Hort, and the Alands say about its oldest mss.
    You’re entitled to a negative OPINION about it, from whatever motivation. But your adviser and I are very disappointed in your attitude toward FACT.
    Thus endeth the rant.

  • Conversation: There are very few conversations, said to be by Dr Johnson, that do not come from Boswell’s Life. Were you there? Was Peter Martin? [A recent biographer of Johnson. Can’t post the link because it’s commercial.]

  • I get the point, but I view the “catholic,” i.e., universal church as the global body of believers who have sincerely and genuinely embraced the Christian faith, of whatever sect. That said, though I respect other people’s right to their own spiritual viewpoint, I submit that biblical Christianity is the one true spiritual faith acceptable to God. In simple terms, those who stipulate the Nicene Creed are those who fall within the Realm of the Kingdom of God. I count the Roman Catholic Church as among those faith traditions who have true believers in the Christian communiuty, but the RCC has neither a monopoly, nor can it guarantee that mere membership on its rolls is sufficient for salvation in Jesus Christ.

  • Lol! Really? Do you need to be spoon-fed every single thing? So John knew there was sin that leads to death and sin that doesn’t and you’re here waiting for God to throw you down a list? You cannot be a child of God if you’re oblivious of his life. Waiting for a list. lol!

  • I get your point – it has been put forth often – but you don’t get Yahweh’s. Jesus addressed it, in the Sermon. Mt 7:21ff.
    V.21. A warning. Against pagans? Jews?
    V. 22. Against those calling themselves Christians. And ‘successful’ ones, at that. “Powerful works”, and they remembered to give Jesus the credit. That should get them a break.
    V. 23. Sorry, no break. What??? Is this Jesus speaking??? The sweet baby in the manger??? The one of tender mercies???
    Yes, it is. Where did they go wrong, Edward? Re-read v. 21, and tell me.
    And, while you’re at it, please cite book, chapter, verse for the Nicene Creed. [“biblical Christianity is the one true spiritual faith acceptable to God.”]

  • I have read it. The bible writer John, not Joseph, wrote of one sin, not identified, that has an exclusive rank. You listed several quite common ones. Different source, different teaching.
    So, what is that sin? Who if anyone committed it? How will they be punished?

  • Not a list, just one sin and your information on it. You pointed to it; you must have it, right?
    1Pet 3:15.
    BTW, “lol” in a reply almost always equals avoidance of a subject. When that subject was brought up by the laugher it means he doesn’t have a clue.
    I could be wrong.
    Edited.

  • Here’s a word of advice from a non-Catholic: Your comments about Church leadership and ‘papism’ would have got you burned at the stake once – by your “fellow Catholics”.
    Edit: And that’th not your only problem with language, you thilly thad thack. It’s “yoicks”. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/yoicks
    🙂

  • What’s it that’s so difficult to get? Who says heterosexuals are not involved in pedophilia? Where do you get the idea that only homos abuse children?

    Okay, let’s look at your statistics.

    1) If 70-80% of victims are girls and a population that’s overwhelmingly heterosexual, some 95%, what makes you think that the target has nothing to do with the orientation of the victims?

    2) correcting for female on boys abuse and bisexual perpetrators, doesn’t it occur to you that sexual assault by men on boys is the over represented? I mean, we have 20-30% of victims to the play with for a group that constitutes just 3-5% of the population.

    3) If 95% of the population is responsible for 80% (less than its proportion) of abuse and 5% is responsible for 10% (double its proportion) of abuse, can you not see that pretending that the 5% is less of a problem because, for now, they are a small group, is actually preparing the ground for an abuse haven in the future?

    Rather than address the unfortunate situation of (heterosexual) abuse that already exists you think it’s better to promote a group that presents an even greater problem of the very same issue.

    At the end of the day, it’s not just a matter of “I don’t like homosexuality because I find it odd”, it’s a matter of “preventing my sons from becoming equally targeted victims of sexual abuse”. Instead of working for the greater security of the girl-child, you are working for the greater endangerment of the boy-child.

    The human mind is not instinctive but the summary of sociological influences. We see this in society by the day. At one time science told us that in (instinctive) nature homosexuality was like a fraction of 1% and that’s what the (human) gay world reflected. Well, with enough campaigns to normalize the practice it came up to 1%, then 2%, now 5% or more, soon 10 or 15%. With each increase the threat to the sexual integrity of boy-children increases as well as its attached negatives of disease, higher suicide rates, higher drug use rates and higher rates of extreme violence in relationships. Yep, domestic violence in the heterosexual world is bad enough, domestic violence in homosexual relationships are at another level particularly between men.

    You may like to fool yourself with a false innocence of homosexuality, that’s your problem, I will stand opposed to having normalized and promoted. This does not mean that known homosexuals should be attacked or denied general service but public expressions of homosexuality, public “no consequence ” admission of the practice and the glorification of the act by its legalization must not be tolerated. Anything short of this is the tyranny of adults on the future of their society. Lol! This is the implosion of the West.

  • BTW, I’m having great difficulty with disqus lately, which accounts for the double post about 1John.

  • So I shouldn’t laugh if I find something funny?

    By the way, where do you get the idea that it’s “one sin”? Is that because some translations use “a sin”? “a sin” is also used for one that leads to death. Does that mean there’s ONE sin that doesn’t lead to death and ONE sin that does? You mean there are only two sins that are available to commit? I still have to laugh my friend, lol!

    If John didn’t want to mention the specific sin that does or doesn’t lead to death he could have just said, “that sin” that is unto death or not. Stop trying to invent what’s not there.

  • Having problems too. I don’t find it easy to navigate, can’t always tell whom or in what context I’m responding and have resorted to some long process for that. In fact one of my earlier responses to you was meant for someone else but since it wasn’t very far from our course I let it be.

    I’m using their app. Helpful for notifications but cumbersome to even see the comment talk less of see its context.

  • Trying again.
    I wasn’t wrong. 🙁
    With this time you could have found Mt 12:31,32; Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:28,29.
    Mt 12:32: One can speak against Jesus and be forgiven, but speaking against the “holy spirit person” will never be forgiven. Wasn’t Jesus taught the Trinity? Oh, that’s right. He wasn’t a Catholic.

  • I don’t know where you’re going with this but I think you’ve already disproved your position.

    If there’s sin that can be forgiven and sin that cannot then there’s category. Not all sin is the same.

    In 1 John 5:16 the same principle holds. Whether you think it’s one sin or not, there’s sin that’s unto death and sin that’s not. That’s category. Again we end up with a difference in sin.

  • I see you have been to the Family Research Council website. That and your use of the word “homos” tells me everything.

    As I said, the issue is far more nuanced and complicated than the genitalia of the people involved. Just because a man molests a boy does not make him homosexual, or even homosexually inclined. He could simply be a pedophile. It could be quite situational. As a parallel example, prison rape is often performed by men who call themselves heterosexual upon men who call themselves heterosexual. The boys Scouts, the priests. THESE ARE NOT MEN WHO CALL THEMSELVES HOMOSEXUAL, NOR WOULD THEY BE CALLED HOMOSEXUAL BY ANY ANYONE WHO KNOWS THEM. but of course, that doesn’t matter to you, because you want to get the gays. The fact that men molests boys says nothing about their sexual orientation, their interests, or their experiences.

    There is not a single expert on the subject who agrees with you or the FRC. IT’s why the SPLC labels FRC a hate group. Not “left wing ideology”, but simple facts and understanding. It’s why no professional organization in the civilized world agrees with these statements of hate.

    It’s all about hate and fear. that’s what the FRC sells, its what you are selling. You give the whole thing away with “This does not mean that known homosexuals should be attacked or denied general service but public expressions of homosexuality, public “no consequence ” admission of the practice and the glorification of the act by its legalization must not be tolerated.” Of course it means EXACTLY that gay people should be attacked. It is what you are doing at this very moment.

    Your hysteria around the idea that homosexuality is increasing– all nonsense. As are all of the rest of what you have to say. But bigots gotta bigot, just like the FRC grifters gotta grift.

    Have a nice day. Enjoy your hate.

  • So are you prepared to question the whole of history and human nature itself? For that is the prerequisite to testing this material. The honesty to admit ones profound ignorance of God which was and is the consequece of the Fall. It is also a marriage covenant. And it reveals and teaches what Christology never had to offer. The first Law and command given to Adam that provided for the direct, active union with the living God. and a unique spiritual bond of marraige outside the corruptions that natural law is heir too and so evident by the world wide sex abuse scandal plaguing the RCC [and others].

  • Not entirely true. Read Karen liebreich’s “fallen order.” It’s quite an eye opener.

    Also Chaucer and Boccaccio.

  • Ah, I see you’re an Augustinian. I’m not. I believe Yahweh can make promises to man, and keep them. Gen 1:28. That command was never changed, abandoned or overruled. It is still God’s purpose to see the earth filled with righteous people. Married sex is the key to that. Ps 37:29; Isa 55:10,11; Rev 21:3,4.
    If you think otherwise, you believe that Adam was stronger than his creator. You need a better god to worship. Try mine. Isa 48:17,18.

  • Edward, Disqus is acting up. I had a reply but it disappeared, as do yours, from time to time. Let’s see how this goes.

  • “Ah, I see you’re an Augustinian” how very wrong you are! So full of presumption. But you are right to imagine that the key is to be discovered within that relationship of one man and one woman, not as understood by any existing tradition but in a transformation of that union that requires a correction to human nature and moral perception itself, and only possible by a direct intervention into the natural world by omnipotent power. And while “It is still God’s purpose to see the earth filled with righteous people.” The means to realize that transcendent event that makes for Divine righteousness is not to be found in the Bible. “Try mine” I think not. And throwing scripture around has never given the world anything but trouble.
    https://onthenatureofmarriage.wordpress.com/

  • I’m not joking. I want to see a full invasion by coalition forces, seizing all property and assets, then proceed with charges of crimes against humanity for all Vatican officials/staff.

  • Great idea..maybe Trump and evangelicals can boycott all Vatican interests and make the Vatican bend it’s knee to Jesus!!

  • Bigots call those who differ with them bigots. That you espouse nouvelle concepts irrespective of their possible negative impact doesn’t make you open minded, it just makes you arrogantly reckless.

    The SPLC is more like a comedy house than a serious organization reminiscent of ideology warriors than fact miners.

    As for the FRC, I’ve know of them also and have listened to a program of theirs concerning parent/child relationships but beyond that I’ve had no business with them. If my understanding coincides with theirs, that would be accidental. I prefer doing my own thinking.

    You’ve tried hard to pretend that pedophilia doesn’t go along with an orientation yet you’re at a loss to explain why girls are by far the overwhelming victims in a world of overwhelming heterosexuals. If pedophiles were only oriented towards children then it would only be natural to have equal number of male as female victims.

    You also seem to be obsessed with what one calls himself or what they appear to those around them. Incidentally, this is where a humongous amount of nuance comes in; why would a person not want to identify as gay? Why would a person who has sexual preference for his sex not show it?

    “Your hysteria around the idea that homosexuality is increasing — all nonsense.”

    Now where have I heard this before? Oh, ever since the homosexual campaign began. I really don’t need to get into this overflogged strategy.

    And, oh, if anyone believes he’s being hated for not being allowed to publicly behave “obnoxiously”, he has serious personal issues. I live in a place were homosexuals are not attacked but whose public expression is not tolerated. You want to misbehave? You don’t have to make it other people’s business.

  • NSA, I never heard of this guy! 🙂
    These days there are many inhuman crimes against people by states, and actions that qualify, by Caesar’s rules, as “crimes against humanity”. There have been several attempts to apply rule of law to these people [which does not include armed invasion]. Very few have been successful, mainly because these men stay in power. When they lose their post it’s usually after having embezzled enough money to find a comfortable asylum in a friendly country.
    The few who do come to trial at The Hague get some some sort of punishment. But the money is rarely recovered and of course the victims’ lives are not restored.
    The government I’m awaiting [Mt 6:9,10] has the power AND the right to invade [Rev 6:2; 16:14,16]. It can and will restore the dead to life. [1John 3:8]. And that life will be in the restored Paradise. [Gen 1:28; Ps 37:29]
    Now, as to your idea, consider this. Your invasion will result in collateral damage. It’s also prohibited by scripture, aka The Word of God [not man]. [Rom 12:18-19]

  • Yes, Disqus is quite balky at times, sometimes it seems a function of Microsoft Edge. When that happens I switch to Google Chrome, and that usually solves the problem.

  • Ben I suggest you go and open your eyes to the meat market of the gay scene and ask yourself who are the victimisers. The gay scene uses and disposes of men and women on a daily basis. No human who lives a life of addictive illogical vice based on a assumption that all impulses are good and must be followed is truly free. Sex is for creating new life and male female bonding. Anything else is second or third best. Behind it lies a pathology that is reinforced through futile and incomparable repetition that degrades and enslves in a Pavlovian way. So anyone with these impulses should ask where the trauma began and certainly avoid acting them out… In the same way good people avoided impulses to steal, lie show in appropriate anger, revenge etc. there are many impulses that if acted out corrupt. Like a seed they begin with an impulse.

  • I might try that. Another solution is to be on a desktop, where disgust … I mean disqus works better. [I and my fat fingers are on smartphone; no ‘net at home.] I use Opera on both because I like it, and I’m prejudiced against Mr Chrome because of his first name. 🙂
    Give me a day or two.
    We could say we’re having the Devil’s own time with it …

  • The Nicene Creed simply reiterates the basic truths of the Gospel. It is not scripture, but it sums up the biblical view of Christ. If it is not an offense to you, would you identify the particular sect of Christianity you identify with, if any. Or have you framed your views entirely from your own study of God’s Word? I do not dispute the passage you cite: Matt. 7: 21-23. What I dispute is your argument that hell does not exist, and I have strong scriptural evidence to do so.

  • Hmm…If you actually believe what you’re saying, Robert, then from whence comes your concept of a supposed “second coming”? Second coming of whom,or what? I await your reply. ?.

  • No offense; I’m doing none of this in a corner. [Acts 26:26] I do my own study of God’s word, but I’m smart enough to seek help. [The Ethiopian eunuch of Acts 8 was brilliant and educated beyond my attainments, but he needed help with Isa 53. So do present-day rabbis, but they don’t ask for it.]
    I’m one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We use the Bible to study the Bible as an organized group. We’ve been doing so for over 100 years in the modern era, and have been his witnesses ever since the first one, our leader Jesus. [Rev 1:5; 3:24; Mt 23:35]
    I offered Mt 7 as a cautionary tale for you, if indeed you believe that ‘many roads lead to God’. Did you see where those folks went wrong?
    My reading of the history of the Nicene Creed, in CathEn and other places, shows me it does not sum up the biblical view of Jesus or Jehovah. That’s for another time, perhaps.
    If you’ve seen something of mine on hell, please comment on it so I don’t have to repeat myself. I can tell you this: it’s an English word about a thousand years old, from N European roots. It doesn’t belong in the Bible, which is in Semitic and S European tongues that are much older. That’s a start, anyway.

  • Wow, DougP1…here I am on tenterhooks waiting for some meaningful response to my post and I get…This?! Seriously? ?.

  • The devil made me do it.
    You were waiting for Robert. If you want my response you can have it, but it won’t mean much more to you than his would. It will, however, stir up the mainstream folks hereabouts.
    The “second coming” refers to a mistranslation, from Gk to Eng, of something Jesus said. His first was 2000 years ago. The second has already happened.
    I’ll wait while you open your Bible to Mt 24:3.

    Now, let’s read: ‘when will these [last days] things be, and what will be the sign of your COMING, and of the end of the world?’ Or words to that effect; emphasis added; note the single quotes.
    The Greek at “coming” is parousia. This means “presence”, per Vine’s or any other competent source, as well as from internal evidence.
    This is a BIG difference. An illustration:
    A mother goes shopping; tells her son, “Don’t go in the cookie jar. I’ll be back by [i.e. before] five.” Son is a good boy; holds out until about four. Just got his hand in the jar at 4:15 when mommy walks in. Caught. He focussed on what he wanted to hear, but her statement was correct. Her “coming” was at, say, 4:10; her “parousia” was at 4:15. BIG difference.

  • Sigh…Do me a favor,Doug. Get out your Merriam-Webster’s and look up the word “coherence” and get back to me, O.K.? Because frankly, if you actually believe that Jesus has already came, you’re either a Jehovah’s witness or a Seventh Day Adventist, and neither of those groups have ANY credibility in the Christian Worldview.Wow…What are you talking about,dude?? ?.

  • You first. Look up parousia. When we Witnesses are told something about religion we research it in the Bible or an appropriate reference.
    For instance, some reject us on the basis of what other religions think of us; the logical fallacy of poisoning the well. In this they think they have found a new idea.
    Jesus was persecuted and finally killed by his fellow Jews, the mainstream religion of his place and time, because they were afraid of his teachings and what their adoption would mean to their position. John 11:48 Time after time they failed to prove his teachings wrong, because his approach was scriptural. ‘It is written …”; John 5:30; 8:28; 12:49
    His followers had the same experience. Acts 24:5-8; 28:22
    Some have derided us for our lack of seminary training. We haven’t missed it. Acts 4:13

  • A correction, Robert. In another post, which I can’t find in order to correct it, I said the Nag Hammadi texts served to support the Bible. That was wrong. These were also Gnostic, non-canonical documents like the ones Jerome rejected. I was thinking of the Cairo Ganiza, or warehouse, which contained other Bible-supporting texts.
    Sorry.

  • Take the name Jesus Christ. More literally Jesus ‘the’ Christ. ‘Christ’ is more a title, in Aramaic it means ‘the one who reveals’. Thus I don’t expect the historical Jesus but to whom ever God chooses reveals his final will, a second Son, to explain that will to humanity. What theology only pretends or claims to do.

  • Total bull crap. But you need that bull crap to convince yourself that you are right.

    You’re not. And about what?

    You’re just yet another ignorant bigot who claims to know something that you simply do not. My life as a gay man is about an impulse? No, it’s about what your life as a straight man is about. Love, romance, family, and yes, even that icky gay sex that just squiggs you out.

    What exactly is the gay scene? I suspect that your idea of the gay scene corresponds quite well to the reality of the straight scene.

    I wouldn’t know, myself. I have a great life, had a wonderful career, full of friends, accomplishments, great and loving family. I don’t hang around bars, but I do hang around a lot of straight people who simply are not as obsessed about wat I do with my dangly bits as you so called Christians,

    I don’t usually call people bigots, even if they are. But for you, since you are willing to make up completely inane and insane comments about what my life must be like, I’ll make an exception for you.

    Here’s a piece of advice: don’t believe everything you think. And stop making up scheiss about people you don’t know, know nothing about, and who have done you and intend you no harm.

    We’ll both be a lot happier,

  • More straw men than a corn field in Kansas, and more inaccurate statements than I have any inclination to dirty myself with.

    Have a nice day, or whatever it is you people do when you,re not attacking others with nonsense.

  • Sexual use and abuse is called a mortal sin because it merits hell. Justice demands truth, acknowledgement and reparation. I suggest you look at Islam whose founder married a girl who still had a doll and was six. Read the haddiths and see how many wives he had at once and also read about his harem. Read about his sexual behaviours and see it still goes on now. We know their are bad and disgusting priests as their are defiled Catholics and many simply don’t follow or distort the moral framework of Christ. The spine has gone. Yet at anytime a person can turn around their lives… Catholics are corrupted by a deChristianising culture and by wolves in the Church as well as their own vices… Which society has set up as new virtues.

  • “it merits hell. Justice demands truth, acknowledgement and reparation.”

    And since hell isn’t real, we dole out justice here and now.

    “look at Islam”

    Yes, Islam is bad too, but now you’re just deflecting with a non-sequitur.

  • Disclaimer: I am NOT a Catholic. I’m not Christian, period
    My comment: .
    Excuse me but this HARDLY just a “Catholic church’ issue. The abuse of children has been going on in MANY Christian denominations and it’s been going on for a VERY long time. I daresay it’s probably been happening across the board in all religions but we just don’t have the numbers/statistics, etc. on the other religions yet. In truth, even now we have to rely on INSURANCE COMPANIES to give us an accurate reading on what’s really happening with child abuse (as it’s Insurance companies that pay out on the claims).
    This is nothing more than Protestant churches pushing their 500 year old hatred of all things Catholic and their hypocrisy is disgusting.
    From the Denver Post:
    A steady stream of revelations and civil lawsuits over child sexual abuse by priests seem to signal the Catholic Church has the biggest problem with clerical scandals, but experts deny it is a hot zone of exploitation.
    Insurance companies, child advocacy groups and religion scholars say there is no evidence that Catholic clergy are more likely to be involved in sexual misconduct than other clergy or professionals. Yet ongoing civil litigation of decades-old cases against a church with deep pockets keeps the Catholic Church in the headlines.
    “There is no plausible evidence that Catholic priests are gangs of sexual predators, as they are being portrayed,” said Pennsylvania State University Prof. Philip Jenkins, eminent religion and history scholar, and a non-Catholic who’s studied the church’s abuse problems for 20 years.
    Jenkins said there has been no formal study comparing denominations for rates of child abuse. However, insurers have been assessing the risks since they began offering riders on liability policies in the 1980s. Two of the largest insurers report no higher risks in covering Catholic churches than Protestant denominations.
    Wisconsin-based Church Mutual Insurance Co. has 100,000 client churches and has seen a steady filing of about five sexual molestation cases a week for more than a decade, even though its client base has grown.
    “It would be incorrect to call it a Catholic problem,” said Church Mutual’s risk control manager, Rick Schaber. “We do not see one denomination above another. It’s equal. It’s also equal among large metropolitan churches and small rural churches.”
    Iowa-based Guide One Center for Risk Management, which insures more than 40,000 congregations, also said Catholic churches are not considered a greater risk or charged higher premiums.
    “Our claims experience shows this happens evenly across denominations,” said spokeswoman Melanie Stonewall.

  • I promise you I am no atheist. I just don’t consider any theology, process or system a valid human intellectual endeavor. More likely a ‘trap’ [check your concordance] to one day expose the extreme dishonesty of human spiritual pretensions. Called a judgement.

  • That’s interesting. The earliest Christians were accused of atheism by the Romans. That brought the death penalty, like treason. The reason? The Romans felt their success in the world was due to the support of their gods – any gods. To have no gods would offend the “real” ones, so they might withdraw their their support. [Christians had no gods because they had no idols in their worship places. Only some books, as the officers reported.]

  • What??? Hell not real???
    Next you’ll be telling us that fish don’t have bicycles!!!
    Oh, you gonna burn for that!!!
    Or not. 🙂

  • That’s about the only way. As you might have guessed, hellfire is an invention of men as a recruiting tool. Not a biblical teaching.

  • Biblical teaching is an invention of men.

    If we are honest, we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of a god is a product of the human imagination. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet.

  • I’m not disagreeing with you, but…

    The Catholic connection goes back a long way, long before there were Protestants. google St. Peter Damien.

    Insurance claims only measure the people that file them. Not a very accurate measure of actual abuse

    Another good question is how many other churches consistently cover up the abuse. The Catholic Church has been documented doingthis at least 400 years ago, if not the 1000 years ago for Peter DAMIEN.

    These issues are always far more nuanced than people with axes to grind credit,

  • But YOU’RE not quiet … and my people are watching … 🙂
    Your lead phrase is familiar to me. ‘My argument is this: If you were honest you would agree with me.’ It’s a logical fallacy BTW.
    Those of us who have read the book find much in it that seems beyond the abilities of men. Bruno Bettleheim, a Jewish psychoanalyst, said the Jesus of the Bible was a completely integrated personality; his highest praise.
    Historian Will Durant said, “that a few simple men should have invented [Jesus and his teachings] would be a miracle far more more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.” https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/115998.Caesar_and_Christ [non-commercial link]
    British recreational sailors, who don’t always play with a full deck, have retraced the Bible’s recorded journeys in boats with success. One group did that for Paul’s shipwreck on Malta [Acts ch. 27 & 28], and please note that all the names of places and phenomena are historical. Publius is not, but his given title is, as are all the official titles in Acts. Some of these were thought to be incorrect until recently. IOW, the writer walked the walk.
    Please read Luke 3:1. Five names, three titles, all correct and datable. Not a ‘once upon a time’ in the bunch.
    There’s lots more. You should look into it sometime.
    [Warning: Blunt remark coming.] Then when you talk about the Bible, you’ll display less ignorance of it. [You were warned!]
    [Darn! Torch went out! Got a light?]

  • Catholic Priests have child molesters in their midst like other human groups, with some extra for self selection by people who sought a job with easy, unquestioned access to children.

    Catholic priests who do not molest children protected their friends even though they knew it meant children would be raped. Protecting the powerful insider at the expense of the weak and vulnerable outsider is also common human behavior.

    This is because Christianity changes nothing. It is powerless. It makes nobody “new”.

    Good humans are good. Weak humans are weak. Evil humans are evil.

    Priests and pastors surrounded by prayer and bible reading are no different from any other human. Christianity is not a force for good. All claims to the contrary are lies.

  • Yes. No human ever has “spoken” to any deity. Priests and Shamen have always claimed the ability for special communication with the deity du jour for wealth and power.

    “I spoke with god. He said if you give valuable things to the deity and do everything I say your crops won’t be destroyed by drought and your wife will bear sons. PS. Give the valuable stuff to me. I’ll make sure god gets it.”

    Every single person who has ever claimed special knowledge from a deity is either seriously deluded or a liar.

  • You really need to read your book.

    Numbers 31: 7And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
    ….
    9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
    ….
    12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest
    ….
    14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
    15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
    16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
    17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
    18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

  • You really need to read your book.

    Deut 13: 12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

  • You really need to read your book.

    Here are three examples where god murdered babies or ordered them to be murdered. Like god said in Psalm 137:9 “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” Note – there are many more examples, but this is about all I can take of the bible. I find it too disgusting.

    Genesis 7: 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. 21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

  • Boys are chosen more often because the priests have more access to boys.

    Plenty of priests molest little girls. Does that mean heterosexuals are all child molesters?

    Some child molesters are left handed. So that must mean all left handed people molest children. Right?

    That makes no sense. Likewise, saying all gays are child molesters because of the behavior of priests is ludicrous.

  • Why would you spruik your vice without any shame. Go to the gutter and stop dragging others with you or do you need to find new victims to debase. You are like an alcoholic who justifies their addiction so they won’t have to try to stop drinking.

  • And you,re just like an ignorant bigot who speaks of gutters, addictions, and vices, and still doesn’t know what he is talking about. But it obviously makes you feel superior, like you are god’s BFFF.

    You obviously know no gay people, except for the ones that have bought the sickness of anti gay, so called “religion.” anti-Catholic, and probably anti anyone else you don’t know.

    But it won’t stop you, will it? You still have to assert your superiority as an allegedly moral person, a so called Christian, a heterosexual, and a human being.

    Unfortunately, your type is all too common. The Eternal Sonshine of the Spotted Mind.

    Have a nice day.

  • BTW! Shame is truly the vice you are selling, and I can see– you,re really not all that different from others of your species– that those uppity figs just don’t buy what you are selling, and that just irritates the hell out of you, or into you.

    Nothing worse in the eyes of raging bigots when the the people you despise refuse to know and accept the place you have assigned for them.

    But thanks for playing.

  • Sounds just like Saudi Arabia, that place toy live. maybe Iran? Russia?

    Hardly a recommendation.

  • This is a catholic problem.

    The fact that other human groups have pedophiles in their midst does not change the fact that the catholic church harbors, protects and facilitates abuse of every sort. Google Magdalene laundries. Google Canadian orphanages. Google Austalia Catholic schools. Read or watch “Spotlight.” Read accurate information about Mother Teresa.

    The catholic church harbors, protects, facilitates and honors those who abuse others, especially children.

    After reading those links, read about the church’s quest to block civil suits and deny victims any closure or compensation.

    The catholic church is a global pedophile ring and should be shut down. The fact that that are not the only source of child abusers is not a defense. That’s like Jeffrey Dahmer saying he should be let off because John Wayne Gacy killed people too.

  • “But YOU’RE not quiet”
    That’s right, because I refuse to be silenced by your priests and pastors.

    “and my people are watching”
    Are you threatening me?

    “Your lead phrase is familiar to me. ‘My argument is this: If you were honest you would agree with me.’ It’s a logical fallacy BTW.”
    The only logical fallacy there is the strawman you built instead of addressing my assertion that religion has no basis in reality. If your claim is that I’m wrong, and that religion has a basis in reality, then prove it.

  • Hey, I thought it was an OK joke, at least as good as the Pope coming to set fire to your house. Sorry I upset you. And it is a logical fallacy. All that means is that it’s irrelevant to the topic.
    Calling my religion a “fallacy” is too kind. Let’s be blunt: It’s true or it’s a lie.
    A version of “some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet” is attributed to Paul Dirac BTW. He applied it to Church and State (UK, in this case).
    Religion has a basis in reality if my mind is real and I used it to invent a religion. But I think that’s not what you have in mind.
    I can think of the Hindu religion, which has (they say) millions of gods, all dressed in colorful costumes. (Church of Bollywood?) They aren’t real, outside of the devotees’ minds, IMO. Of course that religion is one of many that use physical representations of invisible Gods; idols. Mine does not. I think that also is not what you have in mind.
    My religion has a book with stories of real people: Cyrus, Augustus Caesar, Felix (the governor, not the cat), Alexander and others. It places these people in the same times and places as the history books, which you do believe, right?
    We send our kids to school and expect them to learn something about Shakespeare. Yet the Bible text is better attested than King Lear e.g.; 3500 years vs. 400.
    It attributes the creation of the physical universe to one person, by name. Science says it all came about by accident, but that I just cannot believe, It isn’t logical. I know that (of course) every house is constructed by someone. Now the cosmos is the greatest construction I can imagine, so logic compels me to believe that the one who constructed all things is God. That’s real. It’s also a quote from the Bible writer Paul, who had an impressive CV. Heb 3:4.
    Is this what you had in mind?

  • Ps 137 is a lamentation by someone who had undergone the siege of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. This involved a terrible famine and forced relocation. The writer may be prophesying about the Medo-Persian combination that did in fact conquer Babylon 70 years later, freeing the Jews and other captive nations. I’ll come back to Noah later, because that story applies to our day. Mt 24:37.
    I appreciate your thoughtful replies and will come back with the passages from Deuteronomy and Numbers. In the meantime, please read the Jericho account at Judges ch. 2, especially Rahab’s conversation with the spied.

  • And guess who did not bother to read what I wrote?

    Exactly how does the fact that humans in other organizations harmed children make the pervasive, systematic, decades- (centuries) long protection of child molesters by the Catholic church okay?

    The catholic hierarchy moved thousands of accused priests around and protected them from any legal consequences even though they knew child rape would continue unabated. And all you can say is “But but but those other people did it to.” You are just another apologist protecting child rapists. You disgust me.

  • Actually, Psalm 137 is a lamentation by a victim of the Babylonians who fantasied about how murdering the babies of the Babylonians would make him happy again.

  • Yes they are. I learned to respect the Chamoran elders in every village I visited. Very humble and hospitable.

  • Do you have any clue how demented that is?

    Two people love each other, care for each other, sacrifice for each other, and yes have sex with each other. But because they have matching genitalia they both deserve to be burned alive. Forever.

    How can you worship any deity that would call that right?

    And news flash, catholic priests began using their power and authority in the community to get away with all forms of abuse pretty much at the onset of the catholic church. You can’t blame that on the fact that people have finally realized that the christian obsession with sex is warped and unhealthy.

  • “Sorry I upset you.”
    You didn’t, I’m just asking a question for clarity.

    “And it is a logical fallacy.”
    Right, your strawman is a logical fallacy. I’m glad to see you admit it.

    “Calling my religion a “fallacy” is too kind. Let’s be blunt: It’s true or it’s a lie.”
    I didn’t call your religion a fallacy, I was referring to your strawman, where tried to reword my statement as: “If you were honest you would agree with me.” But yes, your religion is a lie (as are all religions for that matter).

    “Religion has a basis in reality if my mind is real and I used it to invent a religion.”
    By that logic, Harry Potter and Spider-Man are real.

    “I can think of the Hindu religion, which has (they say) millions of gods … They aren’t real, outside of the devotees’ minds, IMO.”
    Good, you’re on the right path. Now apply that to your own religion.

    “My religion has a book with stories of real people: Cyrus, Augustus Caesar, Felix (the governor, not the cat), Alexander and others. It places these people in the same times and places as the history books, which you do believe, right?”
    That’s what we call Historical Fiction. Most bookstores have whole sections dedicated to that genre.

    “Yet the Bible text is better attested than King Lear”
    King Lear is a work of tragic fiction, a dramatization.

    “Science says it all came about by accident”
    That’s not at all what science says. That’s only what people who don’t understand science think it says.

    “logic compels me to believe that the one who constructed all things is God.”
    Then who made your god?

  • You are disgusted by many, it seems.
    I give up. Who didn’t bother to read what you wrote?
    Away from opinions, back to facts. I’m familiar with the Irish laundries and Ballarat, and I know about Spotlight.
    In an attempt to move away from the ‘I hate Catholics’ topic here I expanded your view of Canada and and cited my knowledgeable friend.
    The United Church was notorious for its rapes and its coverups. I’m sorry they couldn’t all be Catholics, for your sake.
    Now, the tough question: What do you intend to do about the problem worldwide? In your country? In your neighborhood?

  • I certainly don’t believe that there are many roads to God. Jesus is the one and only begotten Son of the Father, and the only propitiation for our fallen condition. Hell as an English word is one thing, but it’s basic meaning, in my researches is comparable to the Hebraic terms used by the Jews in ancient Israel. We can talk about Hades/Sheol, the abyss, the lake of fire, etc., but I’m not sure we can come to accord on the question of Hell. Sometimes it just works out that way.

  • Edited for clarity.
    I admitted I can’t get my head around ‘self-existent’. I should have added that, by the time I got to that idea, I had already found much of interest and benefit in the book to my own life. I kept on looking and have continued to find the same. That proves to me that Jehovah is what he claims to be, even in areas I cannot investigate.

    “If we are honest, we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. Which means I must be dishonest, since I don’t admit that about my religion. That’s the fallacy of your statement; it made you feel good to say it, but it doesn’t establish reality or honesty. It’s just a negative idea about something that doesn’t match your idea of reality.
    Ganesh and many others are real – to their worshipers.
    Fiction that pretends to be non-fiction doesn’t hold up under a thousand years of scrutiny from opposers. The Bible has. I gave you examples.
    A reading of the Lear we have shows that it’s a conflation of two different scripts. The Lear we see performed is the director’s idea of how to do it. That doesn’t keep us from enjoying it. It doesn’t keep scholars from looking for a solution, and getting paid for their books. Many passages in the Bible have been called historical fiction, only to have new discoveries show the Bible had the history right all along. [Daniel ch. 5 is one such]
    If the universe wasn’t an accident, it was caused. By what? By whom? Can you describe the process for us? Can you put the lie to Pasteur, who proved to scientists that life does not come from non-life?
    The “historical fiction” says Jehovah is self-existent, “from everlasting to “everlasting”. That’s the extraordinary claim. Since I can’t get my head around that, I look for what might benefit me in his book. I find very much there. And a command to share it with you, whether you listen or not. Which I have done.

  • There are two basic meanings for hell. It is a place where God sends sinners for punishment.l; it’s the place of a particular punishment, tortured by fire forever.
    The word itself, in English, does have the origin I put to it. Please research that.
    Assuming that is correct, we can now go back to the mss. To find the original-language words and establish definitions for them.
    Sheol is in fact a transliteration of a Hebrew word. It is often translated hell in the OT, as at Job 14:13, Douay. Please read that, consider the context, then tell me what you think. Was Job praying for God to torture him on top of his troubles, or for concealment from them? The NJB uses Sheol; other bibles say “the Grave”.

  • Go back up the thread. Ghostdreams claimed the accusations of systemic child rape by catholic priests are nothing but 500 year old anti catholic bias.

    That is false.

    Your repetition of “those other people did it too” is irrelevant. Would you claim we cannot accuse Timothy McVeigh of blowing up the Oklahoma City Federal Building because sometimes people attack federal agents?

    The fact that the Boy Scouts hid evidence of thousands of abusive scout leaders and the fact that other churches protected or covered up abusive pastors does not negate the crimes committed by the Catholic church.

    The catholic church used/continues to use its vast wealth, global presence, diplomatic immunity, power to excommunicate, and standing in society to systematically protect child rapists.

    Other denominations may try to protect pastors, but they don’t have a Vatican with diplomatic passports and no extraction. Other denominations may pressure people to remain silent, but they don’t have a 1500 year tradition of excommunication where entire nations of poor people believe that priests decide who is going to heaven, and are taught that priests must be obeyed and never questioned no matter what. Poor and uneducated people around the globe truly believe questioning or disobeying a priest will result in eternal damnation. The priests systematically and intentionally promote this superstition to keep rape victims silent and compliant.

    The size, power and reach of the catholic church allows it to commit crimes and protect criminals on a massive scale.

  • “Which means I must be dishonest, since I don’t admit that about my religion.”
    Intellectually dishonest, yes. Either willfully or ignorantly, it matters not.

    “Ganesh and many others are real – to their worshipers.”
    Which is to say that they are not actually real. Now apply that logic to your god.

    “If the universe wasn’t an accident, it was caused. By what? By whom? Can you describe the process for us? Can you put the lie to Pasteur, who proved to scientists that life does not come from non-life?”

    Try this out, it’s truly liberating… say these words out-loud: “I don’t know.” Or, if you’re not quite comfortable with that, try this simple variation: “I don’t know, yet.” There’s nothing wrong with admitting that you don’t know something. However, it is quite foolish and supremely arrogant to try to fill the gaps in our knowledge with superstition and bogeymen.

    “The “historical fiction” says Jehovah is self-existent, “from everlasting to “everlasting”. That’s the extraordinary claim.”

    And where is the extraordinary evidence that is required to back up that claim? Oh, that’s right, there is none. Back to “I don’t know” for now then, eh? 😉

  • Two people love eachother and sacrifice for eachother. Yet they steal, or lie, or shoplift together. That can’t be wrong because they love eachother. You need to define what love is. Love is shown by what a person does not do as well as what they choose to do. Sex has a biological purpose. This isn’t about any God or about any self deception base on the pleasure and buzz of orgasm as homosexuality and lesbianism is. It’s based on the truth of human wholeness. Not a habit or pathology based on a misdirection of instinct. Essentially the misdirection of instinct in homosexuality is not unlike paedophilia, beastiality or any other mistargeting of the sexual instinct. The intellect, should govern the will and the will directs the instincts forming good habits against the chaotic impulses of emotions. There are norms that protect and guide. The gay ideologues have whole vocabulary that hides and deceives reality. They have a dysfunction and are damaged people who spend their lives damaging themselves, eachother and others. The good person does what is right while filtering inclinations and attractions out that are debased such as desire, greed, envy, anger, etc. The gay agenda must be opposed. For the sake of all the confusion, obsession, compulsions, mental illness, wasted life and emptiness it creates.

  • And you call use evil to score points so you can promote other evils you call good…… you would be there gullotining aristocrats, putting people in gulags or raising you arm in gay protest because you can’t analyse and see belonging and fashion are strong drivers that make humans conform to fashion. Fashion is fickle

  • Although individuals may cherry pick and distort bits to suit there tastes, desires and vices.

  • Are you honestly comparing love between consenting adults to theft? If I described a heterosexual couple as “two people love each other and sacrifice for each other” would your poor, confused, malignant brain immediately jump to theft, shoplifting and other various felonies?

    Gay people are not harming each other or you or anyone else. If you cannot understand that, at least have the decency to mind your own business.

  • Edited
    LOL! Sure an’ begorra, that’s a good one!
    “Cekada”??? Funny, you don’t look Irish.
    BTW, I think you thought riposte but typed repost, thinking of re-post. I get to call you out because …
    I’m perfect! 🙂

  • Nomore, I just edited my earlier post for clarification.
    I don’t find disqus in the Bible, but IMO it’s an abomination before the Lord, as someone once said. I will try to respond again later. [If this comment gets handled.]

  • Would you believe that? The Vatican has been plagued by pedophillia, sexual assualt corruption, several times this year? What is happening at the Vatican? Pope seems unconcerned? I believe all those years of child abuse and corruption have finally come to the surface. It’s the year of reveling for all the crimes they have done to their own people! I for one am very concerned about where the Vatican is headed? Will they self-destruct? It seems Evil has taken hold over there? I did not know they are Dems? Catholic Church in real danage of losing more people!

  • You call it “throwing around scripture”. I call it citing a recognized authority on the subject, open to comment.* Does an English prof ‘throw around’ the OED?

    *Intelligent, reasonable human communication, that is.

  • No one else has mentioned it, so I’ll be that guy: It’s Pope Pius.
    Your comments about former times are mostly accurate. In fact, the early church often used the State to do its killing, when it didn’t have that authority. You might find it interesting to compare John 18:28 ff.
    CathEn has many examples involving “apostasy” [a very broad offense, to the hierarchy] and other religious crimes. My reading hasn’t disclosed a single example for pedophilia, nor for concubinage, also a sex offense and a breaking of a ‘sacred’ oath. I’m sure there were some, because you say so and because there should have been. Can you please cite a name or two for me, so I can add to my research? Thank you.

  • They are harming eachother, themselves and offending the principle of form and function. They drag others into learning and acting out disordered behaviours. Ask any plumber about how plumbing functions. Experiment by sticking plugs into electrical sockets. An anus while a hole, is the wrong hole. Two plugs might give a buzz but don’t fit together. Two electrical plugs don’t connect nor do 2 holes and you have to ask why would anyone be so stupid as to fail to see the fact. Despite the orgasm or sexual obsession just as in paepophilia or beastiality the gay agenda pushes sexual behaviour for pleasure with the wrong target. By all means love another person… But love isn’t lust or sexual attraction. If it were you would marry your dog and take a wagging tail as consent. Consenting to disordered sexual acts is after all just consenting to do something very strange and sick.

  • The OED is much to heavy to throw around. While the Bible is no more than a collection of material chosen by the early Roman church to impose theological orthodoxy in the midst of general confusion over at least twenty competing narratives on what Christ revealed and taught. I personally have found the non canonical and recently discovered material much more interesting and insightful than the Bible alone. As for ‘authority’ Bible has none that I’m prepared to recognize or accept. As mentioned above, it offers no path to righteousness. It is in my mind just part of an incomplete puzzle that has yet to be finished. And to presume on the final picture would be folly.

  • Two errors of fact.
    One truth, that the new stuff interests you. It was designed to. Keeps you away from the solid food. You and Madonna can talk over Kabbala and such.
    You’re right about acceptance. You’ve always had problems with authority. One reason the new stuff appeals to you – fun and games; no authority.
    And you get to define your own righteousness. Most people enjoy that.

  • I’ think it time to end our discussion. You have now become both ridiculous and far of the mark in your assumptions. God day.

  • I think you mean Democrats. I wasn’t aware that American party politics had anything to do with the “judge of the world”. Ps 94:2. And that psalm has encouraging words for those who feel overwhelmed by the earthwide badness of these days.

  • How about using ANY “Scriptura” to address the vile,abominable actions of your brother priests instead of trying to be cute”Rev.”—?.

  • My beliefs are not out of ignorance, you can be sure of that. Almost 30 years of study, application and experience.
    You make a true statement: You don’t know how the universe came into being. [You can say “Big Bang”, at which I ask, “What was before that?” You can reply, ‘It was self-existent.’]
    And scientists say they know, but they are guessing; they weren’t there. That’s why their stories change from textbook to textbook. Jehovah was there, and left a written record. How good a record?
    Genesis lists 10 major stages, in order: a beginning; a primitive earth in darkness enshrouded in water; light; an expanse above, or atmosphere; large areas of dry land; land plants; sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse and seasons beginning; sea animals and flying creatures; wild and tame beasts, mammals; man. Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order.
    Moses was a favored son in Pharaoh’s house and had the best education there, but with an entirely different creation story. Somehow he got the correct order right on the first try. That’s the same feat as drawing 10 numbers from a box, in order, on the first try. Do the maths. 1 in 3,628,800.
    There’s more, but only if you ask for it. [That’s what scientists do when they want an answer – they ask.]
    Everything in the Bible that I’ve tried so far has worked. That’s my extraordinary evidence that it’s true.

  • “The Second Coming”of whom,Robert? That which YOU call a myth? Frankly, you sound confused; perhaps you can provide some clarification…??.

  • I’m not surprised at your lack of actual response, Mr.Cekada…since this is obviously some kind of game to you,perhaps you yourself are one of those. At any rate, your snarky non-reply has lost you the respect an actual reverend is warranted, so…keep on being cute. Peace.

  • Yeah, I know, stuff is only accurate when it makes your point.

    I wish you a nice day and wonder also what you do when you’re not pretending to reason on comment platforms. I do hope it has nothing to do with Scheisse.

  • You are arguing from a script all your own. Your conclusions on my comments have no relationship whatsoever. Since you can’t comprehend logic and trends I have nothing else to discuss with you.

    Ciao.

  • Yes, Have you not listen to Dems, MSM and other Liberal groups, they all seem to be in Hate! Mode? It seems they have caught some kind madness? They prove to be against anything conservatives like!

  • Well, it seems there’s no shortage of hatred these days. I just noticed someone drove a car through a group of those “liberals” in protest. That isn’t the way to discuss politics, is it? Especially for the one who died, and the two policemen who were killed in an associated accident.
    Did you know the Bible foresaw times like these? At 2Tim 3:1-5 you can read about those “difficult times”. It says people will be “heartless and demented with pride”. Imagine! So full of pride they act demented.
    There’s also counsel from Peter himself about the Christian attitude toward our fellow man. At Acts 10:34,35 he said, “I now really understand that God has no favorites, but anybody of any nationality who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”
    How would the world be if we all listened to him?

  • No, I am not a hateful person, just very mad, about the Hate being put out by Dems, very tired of it! God Bless

  • Father Cekada has sacrificed and dedicated his life to serving faithful Catholics day in and day out Laurence. And his parish actually preaches against mortal sin so he is part of the solution to this abuse scandal. Obviously it is not a game because he is in the trenches doing actual work, not just trying to “win” Disqus arguments.

  • I understand that the hatred in the world bothers you. Me, too. But Dems and others are just another part of man’s government of himself, without regard to God’s will. What Christians can look forward to is perfect government, under God’s anointed king, Jesus. Jesus himself told us to pray for that, didn’t he? “You should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may … your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.” Mt 6:9,10
    Now, Jesus was serious about this. Can you imagine he would tell us to pray for something that can’t happen?

  • “My beliefs are not out of ignorance”

    Yes, they are, unless you’re claiming to have perfect knowledge of everything. If so, that’s quite arrogant and makes you even more profoundly ignorant than I previously thought you were. The truth here is that you’ve been spoon fed and you don’t even see it, as you’ve just absorbed the religion that’s native to your region. What was your parents’ religion? Same as yours, I’ll bet, or maybe a slightly different flavor of Christianity — but certainly nothing so foreign from what you practice now.

    “You make a true statement: You don’t know how the universe came into being. [You can say “Big Bang”, at which I ask, “What was before that?” You can reply, ‘It was self-existent.’]”

    I would never use the term “self-existent” … that’s absurd. If you genuinely asked, “What was before that?” my honest answer (and that of any scientist) would be, “I don’t know, yet.”

    “And scientists say they know, but they are guessing”

    Wrong again. They are not guessing. Nor do they claim to know. Rather, they say that this is our current conclusion based on our understanding of observable evidence. Huge difference, Dougie.

    “Jehovah was there, and left a written record.”

    A written record? By his own hand? No, by the hands of the men that dreamed him up. And not a very good record at that. Ask yourself, why did your god say let there be light before he created any light producing objects? Genesis has the Earth being created before the sun. Science does NOT agree on the order laid out in Genesis, not even close.

    “Everything in the Bible that I’ve tried so far has worked.”

    Then you haven’t tried very hard, and/or have too low of a threshold for evidence. What have you even tried?

    Let’s take a deeper look at the Genesis story…

    The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3

    God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn’t make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be “the evening and the morning” on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5

    Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

    God lets “the earth bring forth” the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11

    God makes two lights: “the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night.” But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to “rule the night”, does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16

    God fashions a woman out of one of Adam’s ribs. Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19

    In the modern, scientific light, how can you not see that this is all Bronze Age superstitious nonsense?

  • then your’re unsaved and awaiting the ‘judgment’ read: Hebrews9-27-28 the sacrifice
    of himself.

    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
    Virus-free.
    http://www.avg.com

  • That’s only according to your religion. What about all of the other religions that contradict what you believe? What if you’re wrong and they’re right?

  • If I’m right and you’re wrong I gain everything if I’m wrong I lose nothing ..who’s the better ‘better’ I am.

  • I can, but I’m not going to do your homework for you. Most likely, you believe in the religion of your parents, or at least the region in which you grew up. Have you even bothered to look at other faiths, or to question your own?

  • I’m not posing this as Pascal’s Wager. Look beyond that… what if I’m wrong and you’re also wrong, and the correct religion is something else that we’ve both dismissed? Have you considered that possibility? What if the christ you worship is actually an agent of evil, leading you astray from the true path?

  • Evil people! time for us the common sense, moral, good people to speak out against this insanity! trying to over take our America! I blame Obama, Clinton’s for promoting Evil at every turn! Evil bastards All! But I believe we will Win! Because I believe Christ and God are on our side! God bless, Stay Safe!!

  • Wait a minute please. There has been a misunderstanding.
    Perhaps I didn’t express myself correctly.
    I did NOT mean the accusations are nothing but anti-Catholic bias. I was referring to the article itself, which talks endlessly about Catholics but mentions nothing about other religions.
    AND yes, I do think there’s a lot of anti-Catholic bias going on out there regarding this particular subject.
    I went to Catholic school and I was never abused in any way nor were any of my family or friends (who, btw, went to Catholic schools all over the USA, Europe and Asia). That doesn’t mean other people weren’t abused but it does suggest that, as with all things human, generalizing about a huge group of people might not work very well.
    What we’re seeing is a problem across the board with religious leaders who abuse power and we, as a society, need to deal with it.
    If we pretend it’s not happening? Nothing will change.
    Check out these other stories:
    https://www.democracynow.org/2014/5/8/protestant_church_faces_new_sex_abuse
    http://shoebat.com/2017/08/25/major-protestant-leader-admits-that-sex-abuse-is-a-far-bigger-problem-with-protestant-churches-than-with-the-catholic-church/
    http://www.npr.org/2014/05/23/315129859/sex-abuse-allegations-getting-protestant-churches-to-come-clean

  • For the record, I’m not saying the Catholic church hasn’t massively screwed up in this area. I am saying that other groups have messed up just as bad and just as much.
    Go check out these articles by Billy Graham’s grandson.
    People are ignoring this crap and the one’s suffering are the kids.
    https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2013-10/evangelicals-worse-catholics-sexual-abuse
    http://shoebat.com/2017/08/25/major-protestant-leader-admits-that-sex-abuse-is-a-far-bigger-problem-with-protestant-churches-than-with-the-catholic-church/

  • You’d almost conclude that religion, especially that which delivers moral commandments from god him/her/it/them selves, is at the very best only a weak guarantor of improved morals.

  • Oh, I would absolutely agree with that statement 100%.
    I can’t claim that, historically, religion has been totally rotten BUT as of the coming the conversion religions (xtianity and Islam are the two big ones today) for the most part, religion seems to be just another excuse for murder and war.

  • But it’s ok murder and ok war, because god says it was. And you know what happens to people who disagree with god? MUrder and war. so, that settles it.

  • It’s the unending cycle of religious insanity and it continues to this very day. It is so depressing. We just never learn.

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