Former Alabama Chief Justice and U.S. Senate candidate Roy Moore greets supporter Patricia Jones, right, before his election party Sept. 26, 2017, in Montgomery, Ala. AP Photo/Brynn Anderson

5 faith facts about Roy Moore: Evangelical in excelsis

(RNS) — Former Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore just won the GOP Senate primary runoff. He has an excellent chance of becoming the state’s next U.S. senator, filling the seat left open when Jeff Sessions was appointed U.S. attorney general.

If Moore does, he would become one of the nation’s most prominent evangelical torchbearers. (He has already received the support of the Rev. Franklin Graham and the endorsement of evangelical radio personality James Dobson.)

Here are five faith facts about Moore:

1. Moore is a Christian nationalist.

He believes the Founding Fathers intended the United States to be a Christian nation and that the government should privilege Christianity (or Judeo-Christianity) over other religions when it comes to policy.

“The First Amendment was established on Christian principles, because it was Jesus that said this: ‘Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and render unto God the things that are God's,’” Moore told Vox’s Jeff Stein.

[ad number=“1”]

2. He’s best-known for twice being removed as chief justice of the state Supreme Court after conflicts arose between his religious convictions and the law.

In 2003, Moore was booted off the court after an ethics panel found that he disobeyed a federal judge’s order to take down a 5,280-pound granite statue of the Ten Commandments he had installed in the lobby of the state judicial building.

Undeterred, Moore ran 10 years later for another term as chief justice of the state Supreme Court and won.

In 2016, he urged state judges to refuse to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples — defying the U.S. Supreme Court decision that legalized same-sex marriage, a ruling he sees as unbiblical. This time the chief justice was suspended for the remainder of his term for violating the state’s canon of judicial ethics.

[ad number=“2”]

3. Moore and his wife, Kayla, are Southern Baptists.

The couple attends First Baptist Church near their home in Gallant, Ala., about 50 miles northeast of Birmingham. But Moore is known to barnstorm Baptist churches across the state.

In 2005, seeking to intensify Christian influence over American public life, he appeared at the pastors meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention in Nashville, Tenn.

"Separation of church and state does not mean separation of God and government," he told conventiongoers, who interrupted him with applause.

Moore is known for quoting from memory long passages from the Bible (along with the Declaration of Independence, and the writings of the Founding Fathers and their contemporaries).

His home is adorned with multiple sets of the Ten Commandments, including a plaque decorating the four-poster bed he shares with his wife.

4. Moore said Islam is a false religion.

His antipathy for the world’s second-largest faith has been long-standing.

In 2006, Moore criticized newly elected U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison’s decision to take his oath of office with his hand on the Quran. The Minnesota Democrat is a Muslim.

Moore went further, writing in a post for WorldNetDaily, “The Islamic faith rejects our God and believes that the state must mandate the worship of its own god, Allah.”

Earlier this summer, he earned a “Pants on Fire” from PolitiFact for suggesting there are U.S. “communities under Sharia law right now.”

And on the campaign trail, in response to a question about Shariah, Moore said: “False religions like Islam who teach that you must worship this way, are completely opposite with what our First Amendment stands for.”

[ad number=“3”]

5. Moore denies the theory of evolution.

In a Washington Post interview, Moore said “There is no such thing as evolution.”

While he acknowledged that species might adapt to their environment, he said that had nothing to do with the origins of life described in the Bible.

“That we came from a snake?” he asked rhetorically. “No, I don’t believe that.”


  1. ““That we came from a snake?” he asked rhetorically. “No, I don’t believe that.”

    Good. Because neither does anyone else. But you believe in talking snakes, so really, you are not exactly setting a good example.

    What is missing from the article of “faith facts” is THIS:

    Moore says “homosexual conduct should be illegal” and calls it “immoral” and “detestable.”contending that it was essentially unconstitutional for judges—including the Supreme Court—to overturn laws against sodomy. At one point, though, Moore notes that “you don’t find morality in the Constitution,” and then he proclaims, He denounces courts for having established a “right” to sodomy. Of course, Moore goes straight to the bestiality argument. “Do you know,” he asks, “that bestiality—the relationship between man and beast—is prohibited in every state?” Press interrupts to ask if he is comparing homosexuality with bestiality, and Moore says yes: “It’s the same thing…It is a moral precept on which this country is founded.”

    So he doesn’t want me killed, but he does want me in prison. “We get our morality from the Holy Bible on which this nation is founded.” He’s right that you don’t find morality in the constitution. but you don’t find it mentioning Jesus, God, Morality, either. It is, however, as moore should know, the foundation of our laws. And actually, bestiality is not forbidden in Texas law, or I believe, a few other states.

    If Alabamas vote for this joker, they should rename their state Al Abama. And it will prove that Moore is less.

  2. 3. Moore and his wife, Kayla, are Southern Baptists. Arrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!! No! No! Say it isn’t so!!!!!!! (sarcasm off)

  3. 2 Peter 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

  4. They will vote for him. I’ve lived in the South (SC, MS, LA, GA, NC) since 1972 and many southerners, especially small-town and rural folk, share his beliefs.

  5. Look up “Christofascist”. and his picture appears. You know, like Jesus’ does on a tortilla.

  6. Quoted: Moore said: “False religions like Islam who teach that you must worship this way, are completely opposite with what our First Amendment stands for.” 

    Except, of course, for Moore’s fierce and dour Christianism, which is a “true” religion whose adherents are entitled to force on all Americans. Because Jesus, or something. I guess. 

  7. Re: “So he doesn’t want me killed, but he does want me in prison.” 

    Gee, that’s real swell of him! I’m sure it gives you a nice warm feeling inside, doesn’t it? 

    Re: “If Alabamas vote for this joker, they should rename their state Al Abama.” 

    Oh, they’ll vote for him, all right. As his friend and fellow militant Christianist Sarah Palin would say, “You betcha!” It’s been “al-Abama” already, for many years now. Or should that be Alabamastan. 

    Yessirreebob, da Chrishun Taliban sure are alive ‘n’ well ‘n’ livin’ it up in ol’ Alabam! Yee hah! Now deys’ll getsta put dem dere Ten Commandments in all da courtrooms in da country, cus’n we gotsta make sure’n everone knows as da Lord dun give us all our laws! ‘N’ dey’ll be putting da Ten Commandments in all da schools ’rounda country, cus’n we gotsta make sure alla praycious chilluns dun knows ’em all! Da Ten Commandments judge gonna ride inta Washington ‘n’ make alla dem dere godless heathens b’lieve as dey should, cus’n dis here is a Chrishun nation. Praise da Lord ‘n’ pass da ammunition! 

  8. That’s not a nice thging to say about Moore, but sure, whatever floats your boat.

  9. I’m afraid it may be true. If they could vote more a moral reprobate like 45, they can vote for someone with so little repesct for the consitution, and yet swearing an oath to uphold it, or at least, his christianized version of it.

  10. Atrocious accent aside :0), that does seem to be the agenda. We have to hope thst the people of sense will step up and be counted.

  11. you prefer: Quran (4:34) – “Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.” ?
    Just so you are clear on “scourge”:
    verb (used with object), scourged, scourging.
    to whip with a scourge; lash.
    to punish, chastise, or criticize severely.

  12. I don’t “prefer” anything. What I am saying is that Alabamastan is little different from Pakistan or Afghanistan. It’s just that the name of the deity being called upon to support religiofascism happens to be different. Christianists say their religiofascism is dictated by Jesus, while Islamists say theirs is dictated by al-Lah. Other than that … in my eyes … you’re pretty much all the same bunch. 

  13. It might be hard to read, but I’ve been to the deep South and the accent I typed is what I heard in a number of places. 

    As for the people of sense, I don’t know there are many left in Alabamastan who’re willing to step up. Most have been intimidated by the Christianists and quelled. They allowed Moore to be re-elected to the bench after his ejection from it for breaking the law. In other words, they’ve already told us what they think of Moore … and that’s just how it is. 

  14. Then I would suggest that you know neither of them well.

  15. I have some differences with the nominee, mostly regarding felicity of expression. And I would argue that the founding fathers were not united in their views with respect to the level of influence the Christian faith should have in the nation’s councils. Further, his scriptural citation in reference to Caesar does not properly meet the point of his argument…pretty poor reasoning for a jurist, but hey this is America and since I live almost as far away from Alabama as is possible in the lower 48, I say let the electorate of that State choose whomsoever they wish. Isn’t that an undergirding principle of democracy?

  16. Way too much hand-wringing paranoia there. Nobody’s out to get’cha dude.

    All you’re likely to see is: Conservative Roy Moore replaces conservative Jeff Sessions, in the U.S. Senate. No changes in the overall balance of power, no return of any 10-C monuments or anti-sodomy laws.

    Of course, Moore doesn’t believe in the stale hog-slop religion of evolution, but that merely proves that he’s got a high IQ.

    Again, nothing scary for you, PsiCop, or anybody.

  17. The following post is directed (though not exclusively) towards the posters “Rational Conclusions”, “Misti”, and “Jim Johnson”, and has been posted here because
    (1) the original thread may well be gone soon, and
    (2) Judge Roy Moore’s well-known opposition to legalized gay marriage, entails the reality that the myth of “Gays are Born that Way” is indeed false.

    Thanks to Rational Conclusions, Misti, and Jim Johnson for responding. I forgot to check the thread in question, except that Disqus sent an alert, so I’m glad you all replied.

    Here’s where science currently stands. The following is a summary from Johns Hopkins University psychiatrist-scholars Dr. Lawrence Mayer and Dr. Paul McHugh, Aug. 22, 2016. Science does NOT support the “Born That Way” myth.


    While some people are under the impression that sexual orientation is an innate, fixed, and biological trait of human beings — that, whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual, we are “born that way” — there is insufficient scientific evidence to support that claim.

    In fact, the concept of sexual orientation itself is highly ambiguous; it can refer to a set of behaviors, to feelings of attraction, or to a sense of identity. Epidemiological studies show a rather modest association between genetic factors and sexual attractions or behaviors, but do not provide significant evidence pointing to particular genes.

    There is also evidence for other hypothesized biological causes of homosexual behaviors, attractions, or identity — such as the influence of hormones on prenatal development — but that evidence, too, is limited.

    Studies of the brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals have found some differences, but have not demonstrated that these differences are inborn rather than the result of environmental factors that influenced both psychological and neurobiological traits.

    One environmental factor that appears to be correlated with non-heterosexuality is childhood sexual abuse victimization, which may also contribute to the higher rates of poor mental health outcomes among non-heterosexual subpopulations, compared to the general population.

    Overall, the evidence suggests some measure of fluidity in patterns of sexual attraction and behavior — contrary to the “born that way” notion that oversimplifies the vast complexity of human sexuality.


    If you want to read the entire article, just click on here:

  18. The election of Judge Moore to the Senate renews our hope that the ugly national disgrace of gay “marriage” will eventually be reversed, overturned and rescinded.

  19. “If Moore does, he would become one of the nation’s most prominent evangelical torchbearers.”

    Well, somebody has to do it. Crosses don’t set themselves on fire.

  20. Exactly! How naive of the author.
    The SBC is a denomination that was created for the sole purpose of defending slavery and white supremacy. Of course the Moore’s are Southern Baptist.

  21. Doubt if Congress can pass a law banning it. Not sure about the SCOTUS. Don’t force your morals on everyone else: Currently SS marriage is a choice but you want to ban it, thus imposing your Bronze-age views on us.

  22. Jim,
    Gay marriage is a nasty rejection of the beauty and love of real marriage, it is a terrible tragedy for anyone who becomes entrapped in this evil way of life. The whole aura of gay marriage is a moral calamity. It is vicious and malicious to push this repugnant filth on innocent young children, especially other people’s children.

  23. It will take decades to decide the issue from a scientific point of view. Anecdotally, it appears not to be a choice for the majority. That is also the word I get from gay friends and from what I learned from my gay son. Regardless, it doesn’t matter. Just like your biblical BS calling it a sin. Your kind are soon to be fossils.

  24. At the founding of our nation, the Constitution, regarding religion, was a goal. Nearly every state violated the principles. There were state-funded religions, bans on certain denominations, bans on atheists holding elected offices, etc. It took decades until all states complied.

  25. Religion is man-made – men wrote the books and made the rules. Calling another religion false it the pot calling the kettle black.

  26. Again, you must always have a story about me. I’m neither worried about Moore, nor worried about the reimposition of sodomy laws. I’m merely pointing out what he says, and what he says is that he IS out to get me.

    Funny how YOU didn’t say, “no! no! no! Putting people in prison for their ‘sins’ is wrong.” Just another snide comment about science from the black man who who was “scientifically” defined as as “less than” but uses a computer, whose actual ancestors were oppressed by Moore’s spiritual ancestors, and who calls evolution a religion rather than the underpinning of our life sciences.

  27. Birmingham just passed a gay rights law. So people of sense and compassion are there.

  28. In the US marriage is defined and licensed by the State – the role of god(s) is optional.

  29. Gee, how nice … for just Birmingham. When are those people of sense going to seize control of their entire state? Wake me when they do. 

  30. No offense but you city guys are really out of touch with small-town and rural white America. They’ve just been ‘woked’ and asserting themselves via the orange pied-piper.

  31. Morality is not the exclusive domain of religion. Your religion does not define my morals. I’m not a slave to a book of mythology for my morals – a book of dubious morals.

  32. Dear Jim,
    Based on your personal morals, could you explain to us why sodomy is morally righteous? Where is the love, grace, health, happiness and edification that flows from practicing sodomy. How does sodomy help families and children? Has it helped your son? What is it good for?

  33. Actually, the correct term is “Kool-Aid Cult”, but it requires fewer keystrokes to sinply call evolution a “religion.”

  34. Islam is made by man, for certain – and a very insecure one at that, but Christianity is God reaching down to man….

  35. I’m glad that you’re perfect and have never made an error! Nice to meet you Jeff.

  36. Actually, I was talking about Ben. Slow night here tonight.

  37. Judge Moore can believe whatever he likes. What he can’t do is force others to accept his beliefs through the power of the government.

  38. Umm…nope. If Moore wins the run-off and goes to the Senate, that should be viewed as a Christian repudiation (at least in Alabama) of the patently false notion that the State gets the last word on defining a planet-wide institution that’s designed and defined by God Himself.

  39. The stupid is strong with this one.

    Also, I know several Evangelicals who take exception to Roy Moore’s hubris, so ‘in excelsis’? Probably not.

  40. Oh, I see it, all righty.

    My only hope is that if they lose their health insurance, or their sons go off on another war of choice, they might actually wake up.

  41. It’s amusing to hear you quote a scientific study when it serves your purpose, while discounting thousands of studies on evolution as “religion” and a “Kool-Aid Cult”! Surely you must be a troll…

  42. Funny, isn’t it, that the shameless, unapologetic racism and bigotry of white conservatives is merely an ‘error’, while a group of black men silently kneeling is a vile, slanderous attack on America that needs to be harshly punished.
    Strange morals these Southern Baptists have.

  43. You’ve up-voted every one of your own mindless comments. Egotistical much?

  44. Ignore him. Don’t pay any taxes that support him. Resist helping folks like him do their dirty work with your money.

    Don’t say, “not my president” if you pay taxes. You are supporting the president in the most meaningful way possible. $$$

  45. One cult at a time, Uncle. Gotta take ’em down one at a time. Today it’s the “born that way” gig. Tomorrow (or thereabouts, no hurry), we would simply go back and knock out (again!) the patently false claim that evolution originated the first human beings.

    (You see, RNS readers have neither the time or inclination to sift through “thousands of studies”, even if they are true evolution devotees. So what I do is focus on evolution’s most important lie, and discuss from science, evidence, logic and Scripture why it is indeed a lie.)

    Moore has the same sort of focus. Notice that Moore quickly called attention to the origin and nature of humans, in the short space available to him.

  46. Sorry Jeff, we’re discussing Southern Baptists and the silliness of this article.

  47. Talk about a nasty comment and a nasty rejection. A rejection of “real” marriage, like Trumpee’s three? Hardly. Some of my best friends are married heterosexuals. Evil way of life? Hating People you don’t know and hiding behind religion to do it is evil. Repugnant filth? Stop thinking about it as much as you do,

    Reviling and slandering is what you so called Christians excel in. But you convince yourself that you are doing something else.

  48. I think you should stop thinking about the sex lives of people who are not you. As for love, grace, health and happiness, this SODOMITE has all of those things, despite your efforts to deny it.

    I’d tell you to be ashamed of yourself, but you can’t possibly be.

  49. I happen to agree with your quoted study that it’s not always so simple as “born that way” (though biology is obviously a significant contributing factor), but discounting evolution is… well, I’d rather not start off a conversation with an insult.

    I have spent the time and have had the inclination to study this in depth, and you seem otherwise well-spoken, so I’m eager to hear why evolution is a “lie”. Please indulge me.

  50. But since we have NO scientific confirmation that anyone is born gay, and not even close,

    then one person’s anecdote of “I’m no longer gay or lesbian, thanks to Jesus” is (at minimum), just as true, factual, and rational as another person’s anecdote of “I’m gay and here’s my coming-out testimony.”

    Which necessarily means that being gay, adopting and acting on a gay self-identity, is really **a choice.** Potentially, anyone is a candidate for change.

    Indeed, your post effectively acknowledged that some people are no longer gay. At minimun, “once-gay always-gay” is debunked.

  51. Well sure! But it’s best to pick just one evolution sales-pitch and destroy it. The origin and nature of us humans is the place to start.

  52. Moore is a member of the cult known as calvinism (lower case “c” is intentional). As such he is a clear & present danger to the US as he and his ilk want to overthrow the government and replace it with a theocracy identical in practice to ISIS.

  53. Well, the whole theory is connected, so I don’t know how possible that will be, but please continue…

  54. It’s a “lie” because it isn’t something he believes. His version of his holy book is.

  55. We have no scientific confirmation that anyone is born heterosexual.
    But of course, there is plenty of evidence. Your refusal to believe it is the problem.

  56. Says the man who invented it, and the woman who believes the man that invented it.

  57. No, that would be wrong. Christ taught us how to walk and talk, Ben.

  58. No, every state did not violate its principles. The Bill of Rights as originally written and ratified were restrictions on federal power, not on states.

    This is why Jefferson in his much-cited letter to the Danbury Baptists wrote that although he sympathized with their desire for state disestablishment, he could do nothing to help them with it for he was only the president of the federal government with no power to do anything for or against religion.

    It is also why Jefferson in his second inaugural address stated: “In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by
    the Constitution independent of the powers of the General government. I
    have therefore undertaken, on no occasion, to prescribe the religious
    exercises suited to it, but have left them as the Constitution found them,
    under the direction and discipline of State and Church authorities”

  59. The government doesn’t need to get the last word. All it gets to do is define the law and that’s exactly what Obergefell did.

  60. Ben,
    You misunderstood me. I am not talking about the right of two consenting adults to engage in sex. I am talking about immoral adults who publicly encourage, promote and push gay marriage on other people’s children. That is sinful and you should not do that to anyone.

  61. Ben,
    With all due respect, one should never brag about being a sodomite because that is self-destructive. Love, grace, health and happiness are virtues that come from God, sodomy is a mortal sin that obliterates any possibility for these virtues.

  62. Dear Arbustin,
    We now have enough votes on the Supreme Court to overturn and reverse Obergefell. What we need is the right case. There are some good cases working their way through the appellate courts which should be ripe for the Supreme Court in the near future, so we are hopeful. Wish us well. Thanks

  63. Or not.

    It’s your opinion that it is self-destructive. No one I know would agree with you: gay, straight, Christian, religious, or not. A majority of the American public does not agree with you. A good portion of the civilized world does not agree with you.

    You know who does agree with you? Islamists agree with you. None of the many muslims I know agree with you or with them.

    ” Love, grace, health and happiness” are things that come from god? YOUR OWN WORDS CONVICT YOU. He must love me greatly. I have the love of wonderful man, a wonderful family, a large circle of friends, neighbors, and colleagues who love me.

    Health and happiness? At 67, I still run 6 minute miles, and have no health issues other than what comes with age. I have no addictions. I have all of the happiness accorded to most people. So your friend in the sky, who agrees with you according to you, apparently doesn’t agree with you.

    Oh, you mean GRACE from your god is lacking. So you think. But then, you obviously think you know exactly what your god thinks about me. Tell me all about it, sinner boy.

    you know what is self destructive: obsessing over the lives and sex lives of people whom you don’t know, know nothing about, and who have done you and intend you no harm except in the darknesses of your own fevered imagination. You know what is self destructive? Persuading yourself that your beliefs about people you don’t know and know nothing about must be true.

  64. I think I understand you quite well. You’re fine with me doing whatever it is you think I’m doing as long as I am happy to live in that little prison you intend for me called the closet. Honey, that ain’t gonna happen, not now, not ever again as long as there is breath in my body.

    No one is pushing anything on you or your children. That is yet another story you people tell yourselves to justify your attacks on gay people, our lives, our faiths, and our families. It’s called projection, and it isn’t pretty.

    Exactly what have you been doing to gay people for the past 2000 years, except for that– pushing your ignorance, bigotry, and perversion of faith on people who did nothing to deserve your animus. How many dead gay kids will it take before you admit your intentions? How many gay adults, goaded into lives of furtiveness, substance abuse, and depression will it take to satisfy you? How many murdered, imprisoned, suicidal, self-destructive gay people will give you a body count that you can live with.,

    talk about Moloch. look in a mirror, sinner boy, and take care of your own sins before you presume to tell me about mine.,

  65. Not surprised. Many there are still trying to overturn Brown v. Board of Ed. and repeal The Civil Rights Act.

    What was their state motto? “Last in Freedom” I think.

  66. But required to do evil in the name of your faith.

    Christians like yourself make terrible examples of the argument for religious based morality.

    You advocate maliciously harming others. Plus you argue in a way to give us the notion that religious types are barely restrained violent sociopaths kept on a divine leash.

  67. If you had any due respect, you would not bother intruding upon what consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes. You would not demand to make such untoward trespasses upon their lives. You would know it’s none of your business nor ever will be.

    But you have no respect for others and any sense of morality. It is merely a term to give pretext to malice and bigotry.

  68. No you don’t, silly. They just swapped out one corrupt right wingnut with another. The deciding vote was Kennedy. The progenitor of gay rights Supreme Court decisions.

    The courts are not going to invalidate marriages. You guys still could never cough up honest, sane, rational, secular arguments to ban gay marriage. Nor will you.

  69. Of course, the evil Plessy decision “defined the law” as well. And Plessy has NEVER been overturned.

    And yet, Plessy is now fully defeated, destroyed. But how? Simple. The people who chose NOT to tolerate Plessy’s evil, did whatever they could to slowly chip away at Plessy (with no guarantees that they would even live to see results), until, after 68 years, Plessy finally dropped dead.

    The evil Obergefell decision, is just as vulnerable as Plessy. It can be overturned — but if not, it can be destroyed.

    Btw, Obergefell didn’t even “define the law.” It was just activist Justice Kennedy making up his own law with fanatical Obama’s help. Justices Alito, Scalia, I think Roberts too, have raised important dissents that already count against Obergefell.

  70. “With all due respect”
    Why is that phrase always followed by something disrespectful?

  71. Actually, you got it right. The “whole theory is connected.”

    As proof, evolutionist Gert Korthof pointed out in a 2004 essay (called “Common Descent: It’s All or Nothing”) that if you don’t accept the theory of evolution’s specific claim of naturalistic evolution originating the first humans from a non-human “ape-like common ancestor” animal, **then you don’t accept the theory of evolution at all.** So you’re right.

    Therefore……instead of me trying to hash out 500 separate evo-claims (and trying to help everybody differentiate between small-scale penny-ante “Microevolution” claims and unsupported large-scale “Macroevolution” claims), all I really have to do is imitate Roy Moore and talk about how we humans destroy Evolution.

  72. Dude, there are lots of happy and healthy gay couples, many with happy and healthy children.

    If you ever come to grips with your own sexuality, perhaps you too could be in such a relationship.

  73. And there are many gays who are NOT happy. Their own consciences be talking to them in private. Their own Bibles and their own God be talking to them, even if they don’t go to church.

    They don’t want Gay-Self-Identity anymore. Don’t want gay relationships. They want freedom, healing, deliverance.

  74. Really? Because brown v. Board of education would disagree with you.

  75. No, of course, all of those unhappy gay people has nothing whatsoever to do with millennia of oppression, of hearing from people like you that claim they are filthy, diseased, and sick, something they hear for the entirety of their lives.
    I guess all of those black people, with higher rates of obesity, diabetes, heart issues, incarceration, lack of education, broken families and on and on and on and on and on could just stop being black. After all, centuries of oppression could not possibly be responsible for that.
    they don’t get healing, freedom, and deliverance from your theology.

  76. I’m familiar with Korthof’s argument, though I’d say you’re misreading it: When one piece of evidence doesn’t jive with the theory, while overwhelming mountains of evidence do support the theory, it tends to be more likely that the evidence itself is flawed.

    Edit: That is, Korthof’s point is a comment on you, the reader, not on evolution. If you don’t accept human evolution, it means you don’t accept evolution. It (your disbelief) does not mean that evolution is false. Furthermore, his point is pure commentary. It’s not “proof” that the whole theory is connected.

    At any rate, at this point you haven’t hashed out anything at all, so I’m still looking forward to your thesis. If you think that humans destroy evolution, I’m interested in how.

  77. No, they actually wouldn’t — but they were an important part of the chipping-away process.

    “In the case of Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the US Supreme Court ruled that segregation in public education was unconstitutional.

    “Plessy v. Ferguson was never overturned by the Supreme Court.

    “But, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibited legal segregation and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 provided for federal oversight and enforcement of voter registration voting.”

    — Plessy v. Ferguson, Wikipedia

  78. I suppose, as a black diabetic, I COULD run around blaming a “millennia of oppression” (as you conveniently worded it), for my own freely-chosen situation.

    After all, I only ate those loaded Ice cream Sundaes with multiple Toppings (with double-decker Cheeseburgers), because of the disparity in the black incarceration rate. Your “white privilege”, surely made me eat the delicious super-size Carrot Cakes.

    But here’s a better idea. Instead of ducking things, I simply fess up to my own free-will choices in the matter, and thus repent and start making some OTHER free-will choices, relying on God’s grace & power. (A widely applicable principle, of course.)

  79. Oh no, I just wanted to comment on it. Haven’t really started yet. You do, or did, seem to believe that “the whole theory is connected”, so I just wanted to do a tiny bit of common ground there.

    Besides, the reality is that if you poke a hole or two in evolution’s claim about the origin and nature of humanity, the readers will tend to remember THAT damaging poke, even if you switch the topic to “genetic drift”, “Mendelian genetics”, etc etc.

    So that’s the goal — and it’s not too difficult. Be back soon.

  80. It is most unfortunate that America, Alabama specifically, has come closer to become more retrograde and regressive. Roy Moore’s thoughts are no different from the Mullahs and clerics of Iraq, Iran and Pakistan. Moore is certainly not going to help the nation improve scientifically and in all certainty he’ll make sure his fundamentalist views take predominance in the senate. Every time such men, especially from the Republican and the far right groups, get elected, America goes two steps back.

  81. As usual. You are happy to take a statement about a complex situation and trivialize it. Black people fare worse on just about every single measure of medical, social, and psychological health than white people.

    But sure. It’s all because that this most religious community just didn’t love god enough.

  82. Well, you’ve certainly de o started that certain humans don’t evolve.

  83. The biggest objection I have to Moore is his Christian Nationalism. It is from that that most of his other errors come.

    There are historical problems that arise from his Christian Nationalism and Scriptural problems that come from treating Judaism different from Islam. The historical problems that come from claiming that America began as a Christian nation has to do with reconciling the Christian Faith with how Americans have treated, and still do, non-whites. Was it really Christian for Americans to ethnically cleanse Native Americans from the land or to enslave Blacks before the Civil War and so harshly persecute them afterwards? Based on how white Americans treated others, when was America a Christian nation?

    In addition, if Jesus challenged the Jews of his time about the inconsistency of their claims to be following Abraham and Moses and yet rejecting Him (see John 5:46ff and John 8:39ff), how is it that Moore doesn’t count Judaism with Islam. In fact, Jesus claimed in John 8:42 to that loving God the Father would result in loving Him. So by what the Scriptures say, which Moore professes to believe, he is inconsistent not to group Judaism with Islam. And that grouping would present no problems provided that he believed that society should regard Christianity, Judaism, and Islam as equal religions. Such is implied by the 1st Amendment.

    Also, what should be another implementation of the 1st Amendment is working for full equality for the LGBT community. But my guess is that Moore doesn’t believe in that.

    Finally, I have no problems with Moore’s beliefs about the origin of life. Spontaneous generation is an explanation given to explain the beginning of life under a certain understanding of the wold. But it has never been scientifically proven.

  84. I wish you well in life but not in court. I also have to question your math. The votes on the Obergefell majority were Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan. The dissents were Roberts, Scalia, Thomas and Alito. Scalia is now deceased and replaced by Gorsuch. So the math is the same.
    **Edited to add: the math really is only the same if (a) we assume Roberts, Thomas and Alito would vote to overturn Obergefell. It’s not the same as voting no on Obergefell in the first instance. Thomas probably. Alito maybe. Roberts, however, has been an advocate of increasing public confidence in the Court. He has noted how much of a jolt to the system it is to reverse precedent. This would be a direct reversal, rather than a long chipping away over time, maybe two years after it was decided? This is far from a lock.
    and (b) we assume Gorsuch would vote to overturn Obergefell. His views on the subject are not clear. This is not a pure religious liberty question and I think he would be a more certain vote in favor of the no-gay-wedding-cakes baker in Masterpiece Cakeshop, coming up this term.**
    What are these appellate cases? Are they seeking the reversal of Obergefell? Because I truly doubt that.

  85. Yes, Obergefell can be overturned. I don’t know what you mean by “destroyed if not overturned” and I’m kind of afraid to ask.. And even if it is overturned, that would not prevent the many states that had already legalized gay marriage from keeping it legal.
    As you note (I think your math is wrong too), it was 58 years until Plessy was overturned. In the interim, enormous strides in civil rights were made. So to further your analogy, in the next 58 years, you must hope that society will make a 180-degree turn from where it’s going. Civil rights advocates didn’t have to hope for that, as society by the turn of the 20th century was ready to take tiny steps toward the acceptance of “colored people.” Time was on their side.
    But with our issue, the numbers are not good for your side. Polls show ever-increasing in favor of the legality of gay marriage and the equality of gay couples in all facets of life. The younger evangelical demo has realized their parents and grandparents lost the Kulturkampf, as Scalia put it in Romer v. Evans, and are seeking to move on.
    Dissents are an important part of our appellate court system. They offer the losing side an opportunity to save face and explain their views. It fosters collegiality on the Court and allows the justices to “leave it all on the field,” so Scalia and Ginsburg can be friends and go to the opera. But they have no legal detraction from the majority holding. It is as good law as if it were 9-0.

  86. “Christianists say their religiofascism is dictated by Jesus”. No, Christianists say their religiofascism is dictated by the Bible. They may say otherwise, but they care nothing about what Jesus says.

  87. So, bqrq, I understand thee to be saying that sin is stronger than God. If God loses his ability to bestow love, grace, health, and happiness in the face of mortal sins such as sodomy, then he is not much of a God after all.

  88. Actually, it comes both from the Bible and their reverence for Jesus. The two are intimately linked. It’s even a kind of circular construct: 

    1. They believe in Jesus as their savior; 
    2. They know this because their Bible says it; 
    3. Thus, they view the Bible as literally true; 
    4. And the confirmation of that is because their Jesus said he’s their savior in the Bible. 

    Yeah, I know it’s weird — not to mention illogical. No doubt! But, they do what they do — in their minds — for Jesus, who told them to “go and make disciples of all nations.” They don’t view themselves as making Bible-disciples, but Jesus-disciples. And if it weren’t for Jesus, they wouldn’t even read those Bibles. They’d have no reason to. 

    They may have become (as I’ve blogged) Bible-worshippers, but that’s because they think their Jesus wants that from them. 

  89. Christianist do not revere Jesus; they revere their myths about Jesus. What I am emphasizing is that there is a difference between Christianists and followers of Jesus, just like there is a difference between Islamists and Muslims.

  90. Ben,
    I’ve had this discussion with others. In controlled settings, there instances of self-replicating amino acids. But such amino acids alone do not show actual instances of spontaneous generation.

  91. Okay, make it 58 instead of 68. Conceded. But Plessy is defeated all the same.

    As you admitted, Obergefell *can* be defeated too. Definitely worth the effort. Maybe a combo platter will take it down someday, just like with Plessy.

    Added in edit: My math was correct after all. Shouldn’t have let you get away with that scam. 1964 civil rights act (or 1965 voting rights act) minus the 1896 Plessy decision, as per the Wiki article. 68 or 69 years there.

  92. Re: “What I am emphasizing is that there is a difference between Christianists and followers of Jesus, just like there is a difference between Islamists and Muslims.” 

    Ah, the old “but-they’re-not-‘Real’-Christians” thing. I get there are differences among Christians — otherwise there wouldn’t be hundreds, if not thousands, of different sects (aka denominations). But a Christian is a Christian. The word comes from Greek χριστιανος (christianos), the genitive of χριστος (christos), meaning “anointed,” a title applied to the figure of Jesus which was the equivalent of Hebrew “messiah.” As such, it means “of Christ,” “from Christ,” etc. When applied to people, therefore, it means a “person of Christ” or “follower of Christ.” 

    Having said that, there are — for better or worse — various ways to follow Christ. Roy Moore and his ilk do so in a strict and fascistic way. But, they’re following Christ … in the way they believe Christ is to be followed. Others follow Christ in their own ways. Christianists are Christian, in the same way that Islamists are Muslims. They’re different kinds of Christians (or Muslims), but they remain Christians (or Muslims). 

    In sum, that Moore and his type don’t follow Christ the way others do, cannot and will never magically make them anything other than Christians. To think so is to fall for a well-known fallacy (i.e. “No True Scotsman“). 

    The solution to the problem of people like Moore making your religion — and by extension, both Jesus and you — look bad, is not to run around telling everyone just to look away, ignore them, or as was famously said in The Wizard of Oz, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.” That doesn’t work (as the Wizard himself found out). 

    What will work, is taking on those who make your religion look bad. Correct them. Discipline them. Fix them. Marginalize them. Prevent them from doing or saying whatever it is that you think is not “Christian.” Render them impotent and obsolete. 

    It can be done, if one wishes to. It’ll take courage — a lot of it. Confronting people is never easy. Forcing them to change their ways isn’t simple. They’re likely to fight back. But, that’s no excuse for not getting the job done. 

  93. The “5,280-pound granite statue of the Ten Commandments he had installed in the lobby of the state judicial building”, was a crazy move, then, sister Yonat Shimron? I agree. Because:

    Instead of the gospel of salvation from the ransoming Fatherly love of God through the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of His own beloved Son, Christ Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, brother Senator-wannabe Roy Moore is using the Mosaic law and its Ten Commandments as the legalistic means for America:

    (1) to “recognize the sovereignty of God … over the affairs of men”;

    (2) to acknowledge “the source from which all morality springs”;

    (3) to establish the “moral foundation” of U.S. law; and

    (4) to receive “the favor and guidance of almighty God”.

    Evangelize America, I say. But do not – I repeat and rebuke – do not Judaize America, which is what you’re trying to. Bad, bad, very bad idea, brother Senator-wannabe Roy Moore!

    (Source: Roy Moore, in “Glassroth v. Moore”, United States District Court for the Middle District of Alabama, since October 15, 2002.)

  94. No, they have just been conned….again. The truth is more people live in urban areas than rural areas now. The demographics are changing in this country and the next decade will be like this and eventually rural will die a slow death….just like their churches. Progress comes regardless because it is survival of the fittest and death to the dumbest.

  95. Roy Moore is 70….how long will be last in DC?

    Last dying gasp from a generation that is dying.

  96. Over 1500 species of animals have same sex members that form pair bonds. That makes it natural and because it keeps occurring at about the same percentage that makes it normal.

    Only one species of animal worships a higher power. That makes it unnatural because it doesn’t not occur in nature….and abnormal because percentages are not predictable.

  97. Despite being exposed exclusively to a heterosexual lifestyle, I did not turn out straight. I knew from a very early age I was different. When puberty hit it became evident how I was different. I am your child.

  98. The VAST majority of sodomy occurs between heterosexuals. There is NOTHING homosexuals do that is not done by heterosexuals.

  99. They are simply tired of being dejected and harassed. It becomes easier to go back to hiding….so you’ll stop picking on them and leave them alone.

  100. FYI….diabetes is inherited. Meaning you are BORN to get it or not get it. Just like being black or being gay.

  101. But what you don’t have is standing. And the last time I looked the SCOTUS hasn’t changed. Scalia a very conservative justice was replaced by Gorsuch a very conservative justice.

  102. Until Shelby v Holder gutted the Voting Rights Act of 1965….making it useless.

  103. What do you get by “defeating” Obergfell? Surely there will be repercussions for such actions. Is it worth it? Never have rights been given and then taken away.

  104. I find it amazing that a vast majority of gay people say we were born this way. We are gay. I knew from a young age. Yet somehow a straight person is an expert on sexuality and say no one is born that way. *smh

  105. Is anyone surprised by Moore’s victory? I’m not. I wasn’t surprised by Trump’s victory either, even though everybody else seemed to be. In fact, I predicted Trump would win the Presidency when no one else was taking him seriously. How did I know? Because it’s clear to me that most Americans are just like Trump. The majority of Americans are selfish, racist, bigoted, narcissistic, and willfully ignorant. Those of us on the left are still living in denial, thinking that Trump represents some lunatic fringe. No, Trump represents the majority, and so does Roy Moore.

  106. More people voted for Hillary than they did for Trump. Many who voted for Trump would have voted for Torquemada as long as he was a Republican.

  107. Yes, but don’t forget that nearly half of eligible voters did not vote at all. Most of them would’ve voted for Trump if they had voted, giving him an large popular victory.

  108. Sure. why not. You can claim anything abut what didn’t happen.

  109. Granted. But it’s all of a piece. My claim is supported by the obvious political trends that are taking place. In the special elections for House seats vacated by Republicans who joined Trump’s Cabinet, Democrats went 0-for-4. Remember John Ossof’s loss in Georgia after Democrats broke the bank on his campaign? Now look at this Roy Moore victory. Name one Democrat, left-leaning, or moderate candidate who won an election since Trump legitimized racism, bigotry, ignorance, and hate as a political stance. Why do we refuse to see which way the wind blows? How many more Donald Trumps and Roy Moores have to get elected before we’re willing to face the fact that the deplorables are predominant?

  110. Nope, nice try. Doctor and nurse said simply that the pancreas gave out from too much sugar for too many years. They said get the A1C down to 7 or 6, diet, exercise, insulin, count carbs, and you’ll do just fine.

    Med school much?

  111. Okay, I put my posts on Mark Silk’s column “Rolling Back the Clock with Roy Moore”. Just look for that RNS article, its up there right now, you won’t miss it.

  112. Type 2 diabetes is at least partially hereditary. People with a family
    history of the disorder are significantly more likely to develop
    diabetes. Look it up on any medical site. It is inheritable as high blood pressure and heart disease is.

    It is largely a treatable disease. But the effects if left untreated are quite damaging.

    I have diabetes, my brother has it, my father had it and his mother had it.

  113. Verbosity is not perhaps a virtue, but then it is not necessarily, a vice. I’m not inclined to be free of Christianity, for I find it to be astonishingly true.

  114. Under the new (1790-91) Bill of Rights, the United States Government, not the states could not establish a religion. The 1st Amendment did not apply to the states until 1947. Most states disestablished on their own even though technically they could have maintained an establishment. They were never in noncompliance at all until 1947.

Leave a Comment