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Young Catholics urge Vatican to issue inclusive LGBT message

Pope Francis, top, greets cardinals at the end of the opening Mass for the Synod of Bishops on Young People, in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican, on Oct. 3, 2018. The synod is bringing together 266 bishops from five continents for talks on helping young people feel called to the church at a time when church marriages and religious vocations are plummeting in much of the West. (AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Catholic bishops are entering their final week of debate over hot-button issues facing young Catholics, including how the church should welcome gays and respond to the clerical sex abuse scandal that has discredited many in the church hierarchy.

The monthlong synod of bishops ends next weekend with the adoption by the 260-plus cardinals, bishops and priests of a final document and approval of a separate, shorter letter to the world’s Catholic youth.

Some of the youth delegates to the meeting have insisted that the final document express an inclusive message to make LGBT Catholics feel welcome in a church that has often shunned them.

The Vatican took a step in that direction by making a reference to “LGBT” for the first time in its preparatory document heading into the meeting.

But some bishops have balked at the notion, including Philadelphia Archbishop Charles Chaput, who insisted in his speech that “there is no such thing as an ‘LGBTQ Catholic’ or a ‘transgender Catholic’ or a ‘heterosexual Catholic,’ as if our sexual appetites defined who we are.”

But other bishops have expressed a willingness to use the language, though it remains to be seen if the final document or the letter will. Each paragraph will be voted on one by one and must obtain a two-thirds majority.

“The youth are talking about it freely and in the language they use, and they are encouraging us ‘Call us, address us this because this is who we are,'” Papua New Guinea Cardinal John Ribat told a news conference Saturday (Oct. 20).

One of those young people, Yadira Vieyra, who works with migrant families in Chicago, said gays often feel attacked and shunned by the church.

“We know that’s not true. Any Catholic knows that’s not true,” she said. But she added bishops need to communicate that “the church is here for them.”

Catholic church teaching holds that gays should be loved and respected but that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered.”

The Oct. 3-28 synod has unfolded against the backdrop of the clergy sex abuse scandal exploding anew in the U.S., Germany, Poland and other nations. Some conservatives have charged that a gay subculture in the priesthood is to blame, even though studies have shown that gays are not more likely than heterosexuals to abuse.

Many of the young delegates have insisted that the final document address the abuse scandal straight on, and Melbourne Archbishop Peter Comensoli hinted that it would.

“One of the key things that will be important going forward is not just that there might be a word of apology, of recognition and of aiming for better practices, but that there is action associated with that,” he said.

Chicago Cardinal Blase Cupich said young people are also demanding accountability and transparency from the church’s leadership, which has been excoriated for having covered up the abuses of predator priests for decades.

He repeated his call, first made in an interview last week with National Catholic Reporter, for bishops to cede their own authority and allow an external process involving lay experts to investigate them when an accusation against them has been made.

“Lay people want us to succeed. People want us to get this right,” Cupich said. “Yes, there’s a lot of anger out there. But beneath that anger there’s a sadness. There’s a sadness that the church is better than this, and that we should get this right.”

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Nicole Winfield

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  • Gays are welcome in the Catholic Church. They are welcome to go to mass. They are welcome to participate in the parish. They are welcome to receive the sacraments. They are able to do everything what any other “regular” Catholic can do.
    The problem is, the activist gay “Catholics” at the center of this issue along with their gay sponsors (homosexual clergy) identify first as gay; then as Catholic. Thus, everything revolves around the rainbow flag instead of the crucifix. This is just another example the homosexual forces (mentioned often) in the church attempting to normalize something which is sinful.
    All sinners are welcome in the Catholic Church. Always have been; always will be.
    But that’s the problem isn’t it? I like my sin, therefore “I’m not welcome”.

  • “Some of the youth delegates to the meeting have insisted that the final document express an inclusive message to make LGBT Catholics feel welcome in a church that has often shunned them.”

    Unfortunately, this is going to be a difficult message to proclaim on the heels of what has just happened to Aaron Bianco in San Diego.

    Like cheap grace, empty words about things like “welcome” are cheap words, easy to utter — when they are not backed by action.

  • Isn’t it fascinating that the emphasis is always on the “sin” of a tiny, vulnerable, targeted minority community — LGBT people — but never on my own sin?

    The people talking so glibly about the need to hold the line on “sin” and to inform those “sinners” what reprobates they are never turn that same scrutiny to themselves — to the 90%+ of heterosexual married Catholics using contraceptives, for instance.

    What’s that about, I wonder?

  • Well, in a twisty kind of way, I surprisingly agree with Archbishop Chaput on something. Chaput said something valuabel when he insisted in his speech that “there is no such thing as an ‘LGBTQ Catholic’ or a ‘transgender Catholic’ or a ‘heterosexual Catholic,’ as if our sexual appetites defined who we are.” That is right.

    Our sexual appetites are not definitive of the entire person. But our sexual identification and appetites are a part of our God created humanity. And right now, in the midst of a new understanding of what is part of the natural world God created it is important that we talk about these God created differences. That yearning for companionship, to give and receive love, for the special life-time commitment of one to another that we call “family” is part of our humanity. It may involve sexuality identity and expression, but it is not limited to sexual identity and expression. All the sex stuff is a side issue. The big issue is love, commitment, companionship, service, sharing, giving, responsibility.

    I think that is what Chaput does not get/understand. Chaput and others like him are in fact defining Catholicism by sexual identity and expression. Time to stop kicking out teachers, musicians, priests, those involved in lay ministry who are LGBTQI. What you have to remember, Archbishop Chaput, is that “there is no such thing as an ‘LGBTQ Catholic’ or a ‘transgender Catholic’ or a ‘heterosexual Catholic’. What you have to do is act like it.

  • If they urge the Church to buy everyone a nice pony, do we listen?

    The most idealistic, narcissistic, vocal, opinionated, false educated, highest-selfteemed, self-focused, physically delicate, confused generation ever to enter the scene of civilization.

    The ratio of competence to self-esteem has never been smaller.

  • “Some of the youth delegates to the meeting have insisted that the final document express an inclusive message to make LGBT Catholics feel welcome in a church that has often shunned them.”
    Homosexuals are welcome in most churches. If they aren’t invited in, how will they know they need to renounce their sin. That said, they should only be attendees, as positions in the church should be filled by Christians.

    “even though studies have shown that gays are not more likely than heterosexuals to abuse.” not true: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/DaileyHomosexualAbuse.php?/articles/DaileyHomosexualAbuse.htm
    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2017/08/childrens-welfare-sex-families/#_ftn27

    “One of the key things that will be important going forward is not just that there might be a word of apology, of recognition and of aiming for better practices…” We don’t apologize to thieves, murderers, et al. Homosexuals are no different. They are all unrepentant sinners.

  • “Thus, everything revolves around the rainbow flag instead of the crucifix.” – Excellent comment!
    As I finish reading – all of it is excellent!

  • ATF – I hope I am misunderstanding you…..there is no such thing as “sexual identity” and Christ would not create someone that He would later define them as:
    ” For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.”
    Romans 1:26

    Another reason Christ would not make them in this manner is so they cannot blame Him for what ends up being their choice:
    “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.” James 1:13

  • re: Bianco
    “Jesus was always welcoming and even if you believe someone is sinful Jesus was still sitting with them, eating with them and having a conversation with them. There was never hate involved,” Bianco said.” He also told people to go and sin no more.
    At no point did He encourage sin.

  • I wish that the hierarchs could get over this. The entire idea that there is anything at all “disordered” about the sexual orientation of LGBT folks is based on a very outdated understanding of human sexuality (right there, alongside the idea that it is male sperm alone that bring forth new life). I so wish that the hierarchs could simply admit that it has been their limited understanding of the human condition that would cause them to take such a position. Then, they can simply move beyond this and start treating LGBT people like the complete, valuable human beings they are.

  • Equating gays with murderers is offensive and flies in the face of the posting guidelines. I have flagged this comment and urge others to do the same.

  • Feel free but they are all sinners – hence there is nothing offensive but the truth and Christ taught it:

    For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.20 These are what defile you. Matthew 15:19

  • The outdated understanding is that God created everyone with a pre-disposition to male + female = new life. Not everyone is born with that pre-disposition. The Church itself does not prioritize male + female = new life. If it did, it wouldn’t insist on a celibate religious class that is considered ‘above’ the mere laity and given sole control of the teaching and governance of the Catholic Church. If Jesus priortized male + female = new life, He would have been married and a father. In point of fact, the Church prioritizes chastity and virginity above sexual expression of any sort. Catholic youth are not discovering something new about Catholicism. We’ve known the Church is schizophrenic on sex and we’ve known that for centuries. What they are asking for is to quit using GLBTQ Catholics as scape goats for a very conflicted approach to all things sexual.

  • Jesus was always welcoming.

    Jesus sat and ate with sinners by preference.

    Jesus told those who wanted to stone an adulterous woman to let the person without sin cast the first stone.

    Jesus never said a single word about homosexuality — though condemning queer human beings is of paramount importance to many of his followers today.

    Go figure.

  • 1. Romans was written by Paul. Not Jesus. That quote is Paul talking out of his own sense of right/wrong that came out of the history of the Jews, his own upbringing. I think it is possible that we have learned a thing or two since the Old Testament was written, since Paul wrote his letters and others wrote their gospels. I am not a Biblical literalist, though I can find great inspiration in the Bible. It is one of the stories of humans trying to make sense of the indescribable and unknowable creation and Creator. And, it brings us the life of Jesus – who revealed God to us, showed His presence and love, in new ways.

    2. We are tempted by ourselves, being separated from God. We sin when we seek Him in the wrong ways. God is love and humans can confuse “love” and “sex.” But, isn’t it amazing that God created that need for love and gave us a very powerful expression of that love in many different ways – one of which is through sexual expression. God created life and let that creation evolve into peoples of many skin colors, hair colors, eye colors, left-handed and right-handed, near-sighted and far-sighted, people of many different heights, body shapes, and even sexual expressions. “What! did the hand, then, of the potter shake?”

    God created it all. It is His creation. Who are you to despise any part of it? There are a few things Jesus did say that are useful to remember. One is The Great Commandment: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” Another is “Judge not and you will not be judged…” Both of these are well worth thinking about, sandinwindsor, given the tone of so many of your comments.

  • I see you do not know who Jesus is, if you think He said nothing about homosexuality:
    “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16 English Standard Version (ESV)
    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • To be Catholic is not to be a robot or a recording machine that can only spit back what has been pre-programmed. At least to some. Admittedly there are Catholics who are want to be programmed so they don’t have to think, feels, experience, weigh, imagine, search. But Jesus didn’t come to make robots – He came to open our hearts to love of God, neighbor, self. You can’t program love.

  • ” If Jesus priortized male + female = new life, He would have been married and a father. ” One does not ceremoniously marry God
    Secondly, Christ taught that homosexuality is a sin. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever Heb: 13:8 So, scripture does not become obsolete, or outdated

  • “All Scripture is breathed out by God…” 2 Timothy 3:16
    Paul was taught by Christ – “For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.[c] 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. ” Galatians 1:11
    Homosexuality is unnatural, a shameful practice and one that will keep the homosexual out of the Kingdom of Heaven:
    “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.” Romans 1:26
    “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9
    Loving one’s neighbour is helping them to not go to Hell:
    remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins. James 5:20 – New International Version – that is loving one’s neighbour

  • I agree, Alexandra.

    If this is true: “there is no such thing as an ‘LGBTQ Catholic’ or a ‘transgender Catholic’ or a ‘heterosexual Catholic,’ as if our sexual appetites defined who we are.”

    Then a Catholic who is LGBTQI should not get fired from a job at a Catholic institution for being LGBTQI. More, if our sexual appetites do not define who we are then there is no point to forced celibacy in the priesthood, a denial of sexual appetites. Even more, if our sexual appetites do not define who we are, then there is no point to a requirement of a male-only priesthood.

    I do think sometimes that the Catholic Church’s confusion about sex is right out of centuries of a closed group of men who chose celibacy going a little crazy over their own sexual repression.

  • All scripture is written by human beings, doing the best they can to imagine the divine. It is all metaphor, analogy, symbol, allegory. And, because it is human thought reaching for God, some of it is not right. We need to be open to discovering that the divine is much larger, much more complex, much more mystical than we can ever grasp. We also need to realize that we are evolving in our understanding and ability to understand – what we thought was set in stone at one time can easily turn out to be wrong. No, the sun does not circle the earth. The earth was not created in days. But, we can get a glimpse, an idea – and those stories that have lasted for centuries are the example we have of getting closer to imagining the awesomeness of God and creation.

    Sand…, God is so much bigger than we can imagine. Be willing to not understand but to be in awe.

  • Amen, Bill. Chaput can say what he said and then would turn around and fire someone who is a Catholic and works for the Church – for being gay or lesbian or trans. To Chaput, churchmilitant, the Lepanto Institute, being Catholic does not include LGBTQI people. I was horrified when I read what LifeSiteNews did in harrassing Mr. Bianco. There are many Catholics who do not support that ugliness.

  • Re-read the article, please.

    “Some of the the youth delegates” (the readers are not told whether this phrase means a majority, a minority, or just a tiny splinter of the youth) — are now essentially calling for the overthrow of the Official Catholic Catechism and also of the Bible — in fact, they’re calling for the overthrow of Jesus as well — on the issues of Gay-Self-Identity, Homosexual Behavior, and Gay Marriage.

    Nobody was picking on or disrespecting this splinter faction. THEY are the ones pushing this destructive evil in the face of all the Clergy, Laypeople, and fellow Youth at this meeting

    Catechism- and Bible- believing Catholics — especially the youth leaders and the Ex-Gays among them — must once again speak up and take a vital stand against the gay slavery.

  • You are advocating lynching. This is a clear violation of the rules of this forum. Your comment has been flagged for targeted harassment.

  • So you’re saying that sex is always supposed to be about procreation, and anything that doesn’t set out to achieve that noble end is sinful and therefore inferior to your saintly, superior approach. Got it. Now tell it to the 99% of women who have used contraception and get back with me about that straight superiority complex of yours.

  • So you deny scripture then? I see
    Christianity does not change: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever Heb 13;10
    Christ taught:
    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, 30 and you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
John 14:15 – “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
    You have either delved into the New Age Movement, or you have a pastor who does not love you enough to tell you the truth.
    Homosexuality is a sin

  • Clearly, carefully selected extracts from a few 2000 year old recorded superstitions justify homophobia. Is there anything else? Other than the homophobe’s personal self-gratification?

  • No, floydlee. No one is calling for the “overthrow of Jesus.” But they are calling for a new look at human sexuality and sexual expression. We have learned a thing or two in the two centuries since Jesus was with us. And, Jesus didn’t say anything about people being gay but did say a lot about not judging others and about what is most important – love of God and love of neighbor.

    God created a diverse universe, not just in the billion stars and many billion planets, but also variety in the billions of humans who inhabit just one of the planets. That variety is beautiful – part of God’s creation.

  • I apologize for the confusion. I meant is there anything real that would justify homophobia. A medieval fantasy such as hell would not fall into the “anything real” category.

  • You are correct that a Christian IS a choice. Straight outta John 3:16.

    Memo to all readers: Don’t wanna choose Gay anymore? Then choose God instead.

    Get off Goliath’s plantation, he”s exploited you long enough. You were not created to suffer like that.

    NO more slavery for you. No more gay identity falsehoods and boudoir mess. Jesus will put down Goliath for you, & give you a new life & freedom. Time for your UPGRADE!!

  • Does anyone know why the Catholic Church used to teach that left-handed people are of the devil?

    I do – because it says in holy scripture that Jesus sits on the right hand of God.

    Discuss.

  • No – just reaffirming to ATF45 and Alexandra that the bishops outdated “limited understanding” of sexuality leads to life. Everything else does not. That is the moral starting point.

  • If I accused you of being an “attention seeker” for simply doing the things you do every day and take for granted, things like being married, holding hands and kissing your beloved in public, placing a photo of your beloved on your desk at work – you’d think I was mad. And yet that’s exactly what you just did to me and all the other gay people who visit this site and you thought nothing of it. But thanks for the assurance that “all sinners are welcome in the Catholic Church.” What a comfort that is.

  • I don’t agree that homosexuality is a sin. Sexuality was created by God and is expressed in various ways. That is part of His creation, just as was evolution from one-cell life to the complexity of human life. As life got more complex, it began to express itself in diverse forms, including diverse forms within human life. The fact that the majority of people are heterosexual does not mean that there is some sin or error attached to not being heterosexual. It simply means that most people are heterosexual and some are not. It means no more than that red heads and blonds are not in a majority, either.

    Life comes in great variety. What matters is the capacity to love, to be kind to neighbors, to help those who need help, to be truthful, honest, responsible in one’s actions. That is the heart of the message of Jesus.

  • I’m sorry to say such things, but I am **really** tired of seeing young people — young, bright, full-of-divine-potential Christian (or Non-Christian, for that matter) young folks, all chained up in filthy, septic, unbelievably soul-draining chains called LGBTQ Self-Identity & Behavior.

    ATF45, here’s the real truth: your church, and my church. should be spiritual Mayo Clinics where people locked into the very toughest poisons, traumas, sexual addictions and “objective disorders” (to borrow from your Catechism) get healed and dissolved and delivere, just likeep Jesus did in 1 Cor. 6:11.

  • If the catholic church is going to welcome the gay men and the lesbian women and bi R they going to show them that they need to repent and turn to God, lead them into a repentance prayer?……oh i forgot they don”t believe that they have to do that….they teach their congregation as long as u do ur good deeds for the day. BUT U can live like the ways of the world anything against God u will make Heaven…..That is a LIE from HELL. That’s why i left the catholic church….instead of leading me to Heaven they were leading me all the way straight to HELL…….GOD have mercy on them,,,,,,I feel soooooooo sad for the the lost..The Lost leading the lost…

  • Being gay is not a choice. Nor is there any such thing as “Gay Goliath’s plantation.” Stop telling lies for attention.

    Attn: Mark Silk,
    Deal with the rampant homophobia on your forum, or I will do it for you.

  • Being LGBTQ+ is not a choice. Stop telling lies for attention.

    Attn: Mark Silk,
    Deal with the rampant homophobia on your forum, or I will do it for you.

  • Being gay is not “slavery”. YOU are the one pushing the destructive evil of homophobia in the face of all the LGBTQ+ people in the world.

    Attn: Mark Silk,
    Deal with the rampant homophobia on your forum, or I will do it for you.

  • Yes, because the one thing the earth needs more of now is human bodies. In 2042 the earth will reach maximum sustainability for the 10 billion people who will be occupying what’s left of the planet. I’m just glad I have no descendents who will be asking me where I stood when it could have made a difference. Good luck explaining your position to yours.

  • Not true that “everything else does not” lead to life. Well managed fertility through use of contraceptives leads to life, healthy families that educate their children so they can be contributors to society and have their own families, more mothers who live to raise their children, perhaps a career for the mother as well as motherhood.

    We have, what?, over 7 billion people alive right now on the Earth. It is well into the time to think about responsible procreation. We do not need to breed like rabbits – didn’t a pope say that?

    More, modern science is creating new ways to create human life by combining DNA outside of the womb. I admit that is scary and we really need to be talking about limits on how far that should be allowed to go. I am also in favor of the creation of artificial wombs, for working women, for gay couples – although, again, we need to be thinking of how that is properly used and not abused.

    Yeah, it is time for the bishops to start thinking about responsible procreation because sex no longer equals procreation. That is reality. It would be nice if theologians, bishops, and leaders of other great religions were part of the discussion on how to bring a new ethical response to new medical knowhow and a world with limited resources. It would be helpful, but we will end up dealing with the problem with or without them.

  • “Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7)

    You first.

  • “the truthfulness of scripture”

    Is there any independent third-party verification for “the truthfulness of scripture”. Independent third-party verification is just the thing to give scripture at least a minimum of credibility. Would it be on file, perhaps, at the Library of Congress or the British Museum’s Antiquities Section.

  • That wasn’t Jesus in 1 Cor. 6:11. That was Paul’s take on what he thought was involved in someone becoming a follower of Christ. I admit, Paul was a great organizer and very responsible for putting some definition onto what it meant to follow Christ. I just happen to think there are many ways to live out what Jesus said was most important, to recognize God’s presence in the life of Jesus.

    What young people see is the hypocrisy of claiming to love God and neighbor and treating some people horribly. Young people also have a great deal more information, more education, and they are not tied down by old ways of thinking. They can take the heart of what Jesus said and did and imagine how “being Christian” can be realized in a world of science, new medical knowledge, vast information resources, an Earth that needs to be protected and is, ultimately, able to support only so much life. I know many young people who are good, seeking to do good, helpful, kind, love God, generous. Have a little faith that the Holy Spirit is leading them, too.

  • You seen to think that noting that someone is a sinner is the same as trowing a stone at them. It is not.

    Jesus considered the women in John 8 to be a sinner. He did not, however, advocate stoning her.

    Instead, He told her: “Go, and sin no more.”

    This is exactly how Christians are to relate to homosexuals – compassionately counsel them to “sin no more”. Just like Jesus did.

  • Sorry Charlotte, but THIS thread ain’t Dr. Silk’s thread.

    In THIS thread, I get to go crazy, and help steal as many gay victims off of Goliath’s raggedy plantation as I brazenly sassy please,

    using the most politically incorrect Bible verses, and the most outrageously shameless invitations to experience the Lord Jesus Christ, that I can offer without getting banned.

    So enjoy the show, Charlotte! Gonna fly right off the rails!!

  • No one has thrown stones. Had I done that, or had that been my intention, the comment would have been deleted – as per the rules.
    It was credible information and I have used Christ’s word. It is very unfortunate the young woman feels as she does as she is being given the opportunity for a relationship with Jesus.

  • “Don’t wanna choose Gay anymore? Then choose God instead.”

    In the real world, people can choose both gay and God. They just can’t do it within the confines of Christianity’s medieval superstitions. Fortunately, Christ does not need medieval superstitions.

  • No they cannot always….Christ taught:

    Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.1 John 3: 7

    Christ is just and faithful to forgive us of our sin, should we repent, turn to HIM and follow Him.

  • Jesus never said a single word about homosexuality.

    Nothing. Zilch. Nary word.

    Jesus said nothing at all about homosexuality.

    Jesus never addressed the topic of homosexuality. Not in any shape, form, or fashion.

    He did, however, say a great deal about love, justice, and mercy, which his followers today formenting hate of homosexual human beings are trashing in the most spectacular way possible.

    The gospels have absolutely no statements at all about homosexuality. The word is never in Jesus’ mouth in the gospels.

    Anyone who cares about Jesus, the gospels, the truth knows this, and knows that placing the word “homosexual” or “homosexuality” in Jesus’ mouth is a colossal distortion of what Jesus said and did, as remembered by the gospel writers.

  • How kind of you to express such concern about the state of my soul, “Parker,” when you don’t even know me.

    In Christian charity, I’ll reciprocate your concern.

    Hope that helps!

  • Where is your evidence that the Catholic Church used to teach that left-handed people were of the devil?

  • William, Jesus is God. He is responsible for every scripture in the Bible – including the condemnation of homosexuality.

    Leviticus 18 English Standard Version (ESV)

    Unlawful Sexual Relations

    18 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, I am the Lord your God. 3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes. 4 You shall follow my rules[a] and keep my statutes and walk in them. I am the Lord your God. 5 You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the Lord…….”
    If you read through the list, you will come to:
    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    and further:
    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”

    New Testament confirmation;
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching….2 Timothy 3:16

  • Nonsense. Unrepentant sinners are unrepentant sinners. If you do not agree with traditional Christian moral teachings, you are free not to follow them. Get over it, melting snowflake.

  • If you find traditional Christian moral teachings too much for you to handle, maybe you should avoid reading and commenting where religious believers tend to post.

  • Your so-called “moral teachings” include lynching anyone who disagrees with you. Your kind are not welcome anywhere.

  • I think that you hit the nail on the head, ATF. However, I would modify that last sentence a but. I thin that they’re preoccupied with the image that they say that they are supposed to present, but don’t necessarily follow in private….

  • Once again, your comment has been flagged for targeted harassment and threatening content.

  • The number of left-handed children in Catholic schools who were beaten until they wrote right-handed.

  • And it’s not only that. People past the age of procreation are allowed to marry. There is no prohibition on them having sexual relations.

  • LOL about the name-calling.

    If standing up against offensive speech makes one a snowflake, then I’m proud to be one.

  • “just ask God”

    The God of the Bible would not be an independent third party with respect to the Bible. Are you saying there is no independent third party willing to verify the truth of the scriptures? Since the religious leaders can no longer hold a sword over people’s heads, if they want to hold Hell over people’s heads, they are going to need independent third party verification that there actually is a Hell.

  • If you seek HIM with all of your heart, you will find Him. I cannot make it any easier for you, and HE will prove Himself.
    To get you started:

    “Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.”

  • That was a common prejudice of the time, but I never heard it said that left-handed people were of the Devil.

  • https://www.anythinglefthanded.co.uk/being-lh/lh-info/myths.html
    ‘For thousands of years, the Devil has been associated with the left hand in various ways and is normally portrayed as being left-handed in pictures and other images. In the seventeenth century it was thought that the Devil baptised his followers with his left-hand and there are many references in superstitions to the “left-hand side” being associated with evil. As an example, in France it was held that witches greet Satan “avec le bras gauche” or with the left hand.’

  • Bill,
    I just wanted you to know that I, and many others, support your position. We know that you are correct in what you write.

  • Ding Ding Ding…..
    There it is; the new religion – Mother Earth.
    It’s too bad that you are more worried about this world than the next.

  • Including Exodus 22:18 – “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”? Or what about Exodus 21: 7-11, about selling your daughter into slavery?

  • I am a believer in the Holy Spirit, ATF45. But I notice that the Holy Spirit, along with the Lord Jesus Christ, is ALSO mentioned in the amazing Bible verse of 1 Cor. 6:11. It would seem that the Spirit of God wants to heal, cleanse, and free people from homosexuality. It’s time to cooperate with Him.

  • We are talking about being inside the church – are we not?
    Last I checked, there was no gay/straight identity card presented to an usher when you walk through the doors.
    No race card either. Nor income card. Nor political party card nor gender card nor age card.
    No; it is just you as you are, celebrating the mass with the other people (as they are) – for a brief moment in time focused solely on God.
    BTW – if want to help out at the monthly soup kitchen, run the meals on wheels program, care for the church cemetery, load and unload the donation truck, sit on the finance or new member committee (or any other committee for that matter), be willing to read at mass, or help clean the church; you would be MORE than welcome.

  • The Bible reflects the mores of past civilisations. Or perhaps merely the opinions of those that sought to influence people who lived in such civilisations.

    Why is it that most human beings, and their societies, have moved on from other barbaric behaviours supported by the Bible – such as slavery, ownership of women and children, stoning mouthy kids and committing sexual assault on very young children – but the inhumane practices of mistreating those who are not sexually “like me” (practices based in ignorance and fear) still persist?

    Clearly there is choice involved – not by those who naturally cannot conform to the illusory “norm” but by those who persist in irrational prejudice. I realise that not all who cannot handle the spectrum of sexuality are religious, but wannabe leaders know that they can gain the support of much of the less intelligent and/or poorly educated and/or emotionally stilted members of their constituency by being anti-LGBTQ and even more so when they wrap their hatred in the soiled flag of religion.

  • “That quote is Paul talking out of his own sense of right/wrong that came out of the history of the Jews, his own upbringing.”

    That scripture/history was taught by Jesus as well from the beginning to the end of His ministry. He never disavowed it.

    ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.” Luke 16:31.

  • I admire the young people who are pushing for a message of acceptance and love. However, they know little of how their own church works and what doctrine means and how it changes or doesn’t. Hint: the Catholic church technically already is accepting of gay people. They are fully accepted from a doctrinal perspective as they just need to forego any human intimate connection and pledge to a life of a celibacy. Aren’t they lucky?! Such an honorable calling from god. If the young people want the church to be less assh*lish in how it delivers a message, well, good luck. Hard to get rid of people like Chaput. Human nature is essentially nasty – just look at the popularity of someone like a Trump and his hate messages. Chaput is cut from the same cloth.

    If the young people believe gay folks do not have to remain celibate or should be able to get married, then they need to take the honorable step of leaving the Catholic Church. The RCC will never change on that matter.

  • Sorry if speaking truthfully offends you, but I won’t compromise with falsehood even if speaking honestly gets your knickers all in a knot.

    Flagging speech you disagree with in hopes of getting it banned demonstrates a basic love of censorship/hatred of free speech on your part. Grow up already.

  • A measure of sustainability of the human population is the Total Fertility Rate ( number of children a woman will have in her lifetime). The replacement rate is 2.1.
    In 1960, estimated global TFR was 5.2 children per woman.
    In 2015, it was 2.4 and dropping.

    At the rate it’s dropping, the population bomb may be a disastrous dud, as Japan & Russia are finding out now.

  • You know what else is a common superstition? That homosexuality is a sin. When will Christians stop torturing children to make them straight?

  • Calling homosexuality a sin is a personal attack. There is no rational justification for denying civil rights to LGBTQ+ people.

  • Being LGBTQ+ is not a choice. Being Christian is. You could stop at any time. Snap out of it, already!

  • We are talking about the church – correct?
    As far as I can tell, there’s no gay/ straight ID card to be shown at the door of a Catholic Church. Nor are there ID cards identifying ones gender, age, income strata, political affiliation, racial composition, dog or cat lover; etc.
    You enter the church to attend the mass. To celebrate the sacrifice Christ made for us all; the ever brief moment when heaven meets earth.
    YOU stand before God AS YOU ARE; just like everyone else. No labels; no preferences; no idealistic conceptions about the direction of the country. Everyone in worship of the creator together.
    You talk a lot about the Catholic Church; but I doubt you understand the mass; especially the old Latin rite.
    BTW – you are welcome at any Catholic Church for the following: reader, singer, food pantry helper, meals on wheels deliverer, clothing drive sorter, cemetery clean up, visiting the elderly, helping clean the church and being a member of the various committees needed to keep the church going.
    However, there is one rule; you have to identify as a Christian first.

  • Actually, it leads to birth. Life encompasses much more than being born. And of course the bishop’s understanding of sexulity does not always lead to birth. Sometimes it leads to miscarriages and stillbirths. Are miscarriages and stillbirths also part of God’s plan?

  • Remember when Christians would beat left-handed children to make them right-handed? When will Christians stop torturing queer children to make them straight?

  • No – it leads to the creation of LIFE. Nice try moving the line.

    Nothing evil is/was part of Gods plan. Evil came into the world due to mans disobedience; and unfortunately we (as man) all suffer the consequences.

  • “Nice try moving the line”

    I am not moving the line. You are moving the line by claiming that birth is equivalent to life. Nice try moving the line.

    “Evil came into the world due to mans disobedience”
    You are conceding then that it is all Adam’s fault, not Eve’s? You might want to run this by the CDF.

  • this is what Christ taught on marriage, with no exceptions:
    “Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.” But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.” 1 Corinthians 7

  • I’ve addressed this in several places on this article – I think even to you. Please look back and learn the scripture.

  • So no evidence that this was an official teaching of the RCC. Got it.

    Give us some teaching from one of the Councils, and you might have something. Some batty old nun – not so much.

  • If a society wants there to be more children born into that society, they need to make having a child and raising that child something the family can accomplish. And, very important, something a woman is willing to do, since it is her life, health, and career that are often on the line when she cannot regulate her fertility.

    What is the cost of health care while pregnant and child birth at a hospital?
    What should the U.S. do about the fact that this extremely wealthy country has the highest maternal death rate of any developed country? What child care is available for working mothers???? What is the college debt right now?????

    I get that maternity rates are dropping, especially in so-called “developed countries.” The question is: What are they doing about it to make it possible for that rate to increase? The solution is not to make it harder to get contraceptives or to make abortions illegal. The solution is to make it more possible for families to make a decision to have more children.

  • Well, “sexual appetites” is how Chaput described it. I agree, now that you have pointed it out, that “sexual predilection” is better in the context in which Chaput was speaking. A “sexual appetite” is a very normal, God given part of being human. Chaput does not think that all “sexual appetites” are normal, only procreative sex.

    But that also makes it interesting to think about why Chaput chose to use the words “sexual appetites”.
    For a person sworn to celibacy, any “sexual appetite” is a condition to be controlled and overcome, an inducement to sin.

  • “What should the U.S. do about the fact that this extremely wealthy country has the highest maternal death rate of any developed country?”

    Remove all restrictions on abortion and contraception, immediately.

  • You lack a rational argument, so you resort to ad hominem attacks on people’s screen names.

  • Well, I agree on contraception but don’t agree on unrestricted abortion. Just don’t know where to draw the line. Certainly an abortion should be a woman’s choice if she faces danger to her health or life from a pregnancy. But how to draw lines about abortion as a tool of sex selection? Don’t like that.

    I do wonder if some of the European nations haven’t found at least a way to draw lines, saying that abortions are allowable up to so many weeks but restricted after a period of time. Not perfect but manageable. I think fetal viability outside of the womb means there should not be an abortion but a birth. I also think we have a lot of talking to do about fetal deformities, when an abortion is allowed. More regarding fetal deformaties, if “society” says no abortion is allowed then “society” needs to help pay for caring for that life.

  • “Yes, these were common superstitions.” Absolutely, but there is nothing scriptural on people who are left handed being of the devil.

  • The entire idea that that non-heterosexual orientation is disordered is based on Natural Law and revelation.

    That does not make LGB people incomplete or non-valuable.

  • No one is fired from a Catholic institution for sexual orientation alone.

    In order to get fired you have to do something.

  • The “outdated understanding” is that God intended everyone to have a disposition to male + female = new life.

    Nor does the Catholic Church prioritize a celibate religious class.

    Jesus was not born to have children.

    No one has to join the Catholic Church. If, like yourself, they dislike intensely they can go somewhere else.

  • No, calling homosexuality a sin is a statement of religious belief.

    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/religionnews/to_my_commenters/#comment-4154636447

    Mark Silk (Mod) > Charlotte McFarland

    “Charlotte, I’m on the point of blocking you. To call those who oppose same-sex marriage rights terrorists is beyond what I will allow in this space. Since your phrasing is slightly ambiguous, I’ll let this go for now. You are of course entitled to your opinion.”

  • Generally Christians do not believe that “(a)ll scripture is written by human beings, doing the best they can to imagine the divine.”

    Obviously for a non-Christian, atheist, or agnostic like yourself things look different.

  • Generally Orthodox Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe their scriptures are reliable guides to morality, and on this topic they all agree.

  • No, Chaput does NOT turn around and fire someone who is Catholic and works for the Church for being gay.

  • The list of sins that Jesus did not discuss is much larger than one.

    Can we assume that all of them are therefore approved?

  • The cultic prescriptions of the Old Testament – including keeping Kosher – did not carry over into Christianity.

  • No, she wants to deny me my civil rights, because her religion says so. Ever heard of the 1st Amendment?

  • Your religion does not give you the right to oppress others. Get your cult nonsense off my civil rights.

  • “Society” clearly doesn’t care at all about life outside the womb. Pregnant people die every year from septic miscarriages at late stages of pregnancy, because religious people don’t want them to have control over their own bodies.
    What you like or don’t like has no jurisdiction over other people’s uteruses.

  • As I said, calling homosexuality a sin is a personal attack. There is no rational justification for denying civil rights to LGBTQ+ people.

  • Unless she commits a crime, she has every right to express her opinion and work to pass laws consistent with them.

  • No, she does not have the right to deny me my civil liberties, including the rights to marriage, abortion, and gender-determination.

    Hitler hated gays, too, FYI.

  • That personally attacks gay people. You do know that gay people have 1st Amendment rights, too, do you not?

  • I am reading you exercising your First Amendment rights.

    Your First Amendment rights don’t trump others’ First Amendment right to say that homosexual behavior is a sin.

    Unless and until you get the Constitution amended, you’ll have to live with the fact that other people may not agree with you and say so.

  • You’re attempting to deny my First Amendment rights.

    Unless and until you get the Constitution amended, you’ll have to live
    with the fact that other people may not agree with you and say so.

  • His point appeared to be that nothing you’re writing is compatible with being a Catholic.

    Since you do not claim to be one, it appears to be a wash.

  • Just because you don’t like “homosexual behavior”, that doesn’t give you the right to outlaw it, or to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people who DO NOT FOLLOW YOUR RELIGION.

  • Yes, it does: she claims that homosexuals should be put to death. Hitler felt the same way.

  • No problems. I’ll quote Mark Twain on the subject:

    ” During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.

    “Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. Who discovered that there was no such thing as a witch – the priest, the parson? No, these never discover anything. At Salem, the parson clung pathetically to his witch text after the laity had abandoned it in remorse and tears for the crimes and cruelties it has persuaded them to do. The parson wanted more blood, more shame, more brutalities; it was the unconsecrated laity that stayed his hand. “

  • What a gross generalization you just made about people you’ve never met. Seems to be a pattern with you.

  • Your religion does not give you the right to discriminate against people who do not follow your religion.

  • Stop calling other people’s sex lives between consenting adults a “sin”. Don’t you people have a pedophilia problem to worry about?

  • Discriminating against LGBTQ+ people demonstrates a basic love of censorship/hatred of free speech on your part. Grow up already.

  • As long as we do what we are told, sure.

    Natural law is a more formal way of saying “seems good to me.”

  • I’ll give RNS props in the marketing department. They know how to drive up the comments on their site – just mention anything related to LGBT people, and the commenters come out of the woodwork. A lot of their stories draw little interest and get no comments. Whereas, anything LGBT related brings out the “God Hates Fags!” Evangelical mob and the counter-protestors. All then usual suspects are here, hurling their “God damn the fags!” invectives ad damning everyone to hell who so much as says “hello” to a gay person. There are some very mentally disturbed individuals on here – far more than any other site I visit. Well, shame on RNS for enabling this hate mongering shit to go on just to get page views and comments.

  • No, Natural Law is a LOT more than “seems good to me”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

    It forms the basis for most international law, American independence, English jurisprudence, and much more.

    The Third Reich was an example of an absolute rejection of Natural Law in favor of Legal Positivism.

  • This is the 15th comment to me in my Inbox this morning from you all composed within the space of an hour.

    Included in them were anti-Catholicism, ridiculous assertions as to what rights I possess, and ten references to “lynching”.

    You’re blocked.

    Get help.

  • “If you are tired of the lie of homosexuality . . . May God bless you in your search for freedom.”

    Due to being “tired of the lie of” religion, my “search for freedom” was completed decades ago when I achieved freedom from all that delusion/fantasy/superstition combined with fraud. And in addition to achieving that freedom, for 37 years (and still counting) I’ve had the most wonderful personal savior I could ever hope for – my husband.

  • Had they truly followed Jesus, they would have known that justice is His, not theirs.
    Secondly, witches do exist, our job is to pray for them so they can be released from satan’s hold and deception. They are basically people who have bought into the lie that they have all of these powers when it is satan an satan putting the thoughts into their heads that they did the trick.

  • Pointing out the truth is never a personal attack. No one should have civil rights based on their sexual preferences.

  • Where does the Constitution say “gay people have 1st Amendment rights”? It doesn’t. You are making stuff up.

  • The 1st Amendment gives ALL citizens rights, in case you weren’t aware. Stop making stuff up for attention.

  • Your citation pretty much says it’s a matter of opinion, dependent on time, culture, religion, and politics.

    This is real natural law: e=mc2. F=ma.

  • People who are past the age of procreation are not doing anything to block the transmission of life.

    The moral issues all involve willed acts, not ordinary human processes like sterility and aging.

  • So, take your chances and perhaps go to Hell.

    There does not seem to be much more to your position than that, nor any reason for a believer to engage you.

  • Since you’ve already argued strenuously that no one knows what God wants, that Scriptures are no guide, you’ve cut the ground out from under “In the real world, people can choose both gay and God.”

    The best you can offer is that IF there is a God, and IF you are right, you MIGHT be able to chose both.

  • The phrase “they need to take the honorable step of leaving the Catholic Church” is applicable to more than certain young people.

  • It would sure be swell, with all the topics available, if RNS decreased mentioning “anything related to LGBT people”, the alleged evangelical-Trump connection, and the rest of the warmed-over NPR spiels and actually did more news about religion.

  • That would be true if it was a right to begin with. There are no rights based on sexual preferences and perversions.

  • You can marry anyone of the opposite sex because that is the only way to be married. Same sex marriage is a legal fraud because it fails the classification of a marriage. To have a marriage you must have a husband and wife. Only a man can be a husband and a woman a wife. Without these 2 in relationship with each other you don’t have a marriage.

  • Never seen any one here who actually wants lgbts and anyone “who so much as says ‘hello’ to a gay person” to go to hell, although traditional Christians here do urge them to repentance and the avoidance of hell.

    On the other hand, there are some posters who want all traditional Christians dead.

  • Homosexuality is not a “perversion”. Pedophilia is. Get your fascist theocracy out of my bedroom.

  • The constitution forbids religious people from imposing their beliefs on others, FYI. Get your fascist theocracy out of my bedroom.

  • Yes, usually that “something” is pledging your love and commitment to your beloved and having your relationship registered with the state at city hall.

  • It sure does have a place. No man who puts a skirt on and pretends to be a girl should be allowed in the girls locker rooms and bathrooms. Only perverts want that.

  • You need to read the history on this. Before 1972 homosexuality was considered a mental illness but was changed not because of new findings but because of political reasons. We also know homosexual desires and actions are against nature. The CDC stats proves this.

  • I won’t comment on your beliefs. As long as you don’t advocate the slaughter of witches, I’ll let the matter rest.

  • Only perverts ogle other people’s genitals in locker rooms. Get your own gender identity.

  • In any case, anyone who acted inappropriately citing inapplicable Old Testament texts was in error.

    Or do you disagree?

  • Of course I agree that it is “in error” to slaughter witches and sell your daughters into slavery. I’m glad we’re in agreement about those two points.

  • What a curious question! You don’t have to be a witch or believe in witchcraft to oppose their slaughter. I thought that ALL modern Christians opposed the slaughter of witches. Am I wrong?

  • Why do you ask? Surely it’s obvious that I’m not. Now answer my question: do you oppose the slaughter of witches?

  • Forget that “gender identity” nonsense. Your mom, dad and the doctor knew you sex at birth and it never changes. True for you and everyone else.

  • I’m quite able to respond to it,and did.

    The third Reich illustrates what happens when fascism, authoritarianism, and a built in sense of self assigned cultural Superiority are allowed to take the reigns of government, and the “moral” people either abdicate responsibility, or supoort the fascists.

    You can look at the history of Christianity until the formation of secular governments at the end of enlightenment which finally began to rein them in in Europe. Unfortunately, the Middle East mostly managed never to do it,

  • So far these “developed countries” are not doing a very good job. Both Japan & Russia are feeling the effects of a declining younger population, with China right behind.

  • I agree , J_Bob, and I don’t know what is “enough.”

    There was a time when the “enough” was lots of children because many would die before reaching adulthood.

    What would be “enough” now with so many people living so much longer and there being more need to provide support for those who are aging? What is “enough” to care for them and still provide for the newborn young?

    Notice this, according to Wiki: “The global population has grown from 1 billion in 1800 to 7.616 billion[2] in 2018. It is expected to keep growing, and estimates have put the total population at 8.6 billion by mid-2030, 9.8 billion by mid-2050 and 11.2 billion by 2100.[3] Many nations with rapid population growth have low standards of living, whereas many nations with low rates of population growth have high standards of living.[4]”

    Our worldwide problem is still high population growth rates, but we have a problem with the fact the higher population growth is taking place in some nations and not others.

    We still need contraceptives and good family planning. Perhaps we also need more immigration, not less. Or we need to make it more attractive for our existing populations, especially in the so-called “developed” nations, to want to have more children. But then, if we do that and increase the worldwide population growth rate, isn’t that a problem?

    Conundrums. I just know that as a woman, I am not giving up the freedom I now have for planning the use of my womb to make better and more rewarding my life and that of my family.

  • Much more importantly Christians agree that it is in error to slaughter innocentss and sell daughters into slavery.

    Your argument appears to be with an extinct semitic society of around 2,500 years ago.

  • I don’t think the abortion legal/illegal debate is the solution to the problem we are discussing. We do have a world wide population explosion but little to no population growth in some nations, leading to all the problems of an aging population in some places and extreme poverty/need in others. Imagine a world where families choose when to have children and how many to have – everywhere. And, imagine a nation that puts in place the structures important for a family to choose to have a child, or two or three or four. At the same time, we will need to incorporate structures that to limit family size, too.

    I don’t fear a “depopulation wave” – I fear the hunger and poverty that will grow and grow in some places, pushing the people to seek a better life somewhere else. Like, all those marching through Mexico to try to come to America. The form in which a depopulations wave will spread is what we are seeing now – war, disease, closed borders, more war, driving out those who are different (i.e., Rohingya, Middle Eastern Christians), tens of thousands of Africans risking death every year to try to get to Europe, which doesn’t want them.

    Meanwhile, with millions wanting into developed nations, the developed nations are facing the problems of a declining population but don’t want refugees. There is an answer we won’t accept.

  • Have another ID backup logged into Disqus.

    Silk managed to nuke my entire RNS access, not jut his little piece of it.

    Rather than deal with the dysfunction trying to sort it out, I activated one of my backups.

  • https://disqus.com/home/discussion/religionnews/trumps_nativism_harks_back_to_the_antebellum_slavery_struggle/#comment-4179963743

    Of course the flip side is that there is nothing against the rules about stopping people at the border unless and until facilities are in place to process them, nothing against the rules of using water cannon, rubber bullets, and other means to prevent people from entering the country outside a checkpoint, or in enforcing the laws.

    He has basically killed discussion and set himself up for non-stop battles.

  • While welcoming Ben back I somehow wound up at joe my God.
    I’ve been to a number of sites, but that is quite a display of humanity…
    After reading some of the hysteria, I threw a few pot shots knowing the type of responses I would get.
    Needless to say, I was not disappointed.

  • Omg. That almost made me blind.
    I had to refer back to my days in the marines to get myself straightened up.

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