Britain's Prince Charles, front left, arrives for his visit as seen from the view of The Queen's Diamond Jubilee Galleries, described by the late British poet John Betjeman as 'the best view in Europe,' at Westminster Abbey in London, England, on Dec. 14, 2016. (AP Photo/Matt Dunham, Pool)

Prince Charles calls for Middle East peace at service for persecuted Christians

LONDON (RNS) — The British heir to the throne, who would become Supreme Governor of the Church of England when he becomes king, made an unprecedented plea for peace in the Middle East at a special service for persecuted Christians in London on Tuesday (Dec. 4) .

Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales, delivered his own personal reflection on the crisis for Christians at a service in Westminster Abbey.

Four patriarchs of Middle East churches, Coptic church leaders, the Archbishop of Canterbury and Jewish, Muslim and Roman Catholic leaders from Britain attended the service. There they heard the prince urge an end to extremism in the region and speak of the importance of Christians staying in the part of the world where Christianity was founded.

Prince Charles in 2015. Photo by Arnaud Bouissou/Creative Commons

The plight of persecuted Christians is a cause that has become dear to the prince over many years. He met refugees on several occasions, hosting them and charity officials from the Catholic charity Aid to the Church in Need at his homes in London and Scotland. But this is the first time he has spoken from the pulpit on the subject during a church service.

The site of the service is significant.

Westminster Abbey is the church where Charles would be crowned king. At that time he would also assume the title of Defender of the Faith, first held by Henry VIII and used by all British sovereigns since. Church leaders have been concerned that the prince wished to dilute this role given that in the past, he suggested adapting it to be Defender of Faiths to reflect Britain’s multiculturalism.

But the prince’s concern for persecuted Christians has reassured many people of his commitment to the Church of England. And his concern extends to refugees of all faiths.

At Christmas two years ago, Prince Charles spoke on BBC radio about his concerns for religious refugees.

“The suffering doesn't end when they arrive seeking refuge in a foreign land,” he said. “We are now seeing the rise of many populist groups across the world that are increasingly aggressive toward those who adhere to a minority faith.”

Seventy years after the Holocaust, he said such "evil persecution" was "beyond all belief."

"We owe it to those who suffered and died so horribly not to repeat the horrors of the past," he said.

Aid to the Church in Need, a Catholic charity first founded after World War II to help Christians persecuted by Communist regimes, now focuses on their desperate situation in the Middle East.

The charity has told supporters that the Westminster Abbey service will “offer encouragement to Christians throughout the region and celebrate the contribution they make to their communities.” Last week it helped organize the annual Red Wednesday event in London where public buildings, including Westminster Abbey and the nearby Roman Catholic Westminster Cathedral, were illuminated in red to highlight the suffering of Christians around the world persecuted for their faith.

A new report from Aid to the Church in Need reveals that 38 countries in the world are classed as having significant violations of religious freedom. In 18 of them, the situation has worsened in the past two years.

The problems are mainly caused by the spread of militant Islamism in parts of Africa, the Middle East and Asia, according to the report.

Religious Freedom in the World 2018 also highlights what it calls “neighborhood terrorism” — the growth of attacks by militants in the West — and a surge in anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.

In addition, the report highlights the plight of religious minorities in China.

"Violations of freedom of religion or belief are also increasingly affecting Muslims, particularly among the Uighur population in Xinjiang province, and Buddhists among the Tibetan community and the Falun Gong spiritual movement," according to the report.

Comments

  1. Isn’t Prince Charles one of the few international figures whose comments are even more irrelevant than the Popes?

  2. “Who died and made you King?”
    Prince Charles: “Nobody” 😭

  3. Can’t take credit for it. Cribbed from the cartoon, The Critic.

  4. Almost as irrelevant as your comments, and much less irrelevant than you.

  5. It was his great grandfather’s government along with their French friends who cut up the old Ottoman Empire in such a manner that we have conflict all over the middle east.

    He should be asking the world for forgiveness

  6. Even in Roman Empire there were no christians persecuted/executed unless they broke a law. There was a law against promoting an illegal religion, a religion that had not gone through the process of being approved by the govt. Those who were persecuted knowingly broke the law. Being christian was never against the law, but not performing the duties of being a roman citizen was. Christians refused to do that..

    Remember in the fifth century christianity became the only legal religion and was forced on the population under threat of death.

    Now christians are saying being forced to sell products to gays is persecution, having to fill out a marriage license is persecution, having to fill out a form refusing to carry birth control in your health insurance is persecution. Just stop.

  7. No, that’s another beat up from the liberal left and you know it Dennis. In fact, you’re a downright piece of $%^& for suggesting such. What you are saying is equivalent to holocaust denial.

    Christians have been executed for their beliefs in Pakistan for the last 35 years at least- if you don’t believe it Dennis, then YOU try going to Nthn Pakistan as merely a non-muslim, and see how long you last there without armed guards protecting you.

    Christians in Egypt have been bombed while attending church: Yeah, so the perps were caught here

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-45827450

    We need to stop what the friends of the liberal left are doing to Christians in the mid east:

    https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international/329376-middle-east-christians-suffer-genocide-while-the-world

  8. Peace ?
    For ” oppressed ” religions ?
    They can’t engage in peace !
    The acquisition of power isn’t a byproduct of peace….
    The acquisition of power is a byproduct of war….

    ” Six Christian denominations—Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, Roman Catholic, Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Syriac Orthodox—share jurisdiction of the cavernous church and have been notoriously unable to keep themselves from throwing punches at the slightest perceived offense. ” (video)
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/christian-monks-square-off-at-one-of-jerusalems-holiest-sites

    ” At one of oldest churches in the world, built over the cave that tradition marks as the place Jesus was born, Franciscan, Greek Orthodox and Armenian priests have brawled annually around Christmas Day for more than a century. In past years, the priests have brawled over who owns which altars, passageways and chandeliers, and how to do repairs, according to news accounts. In 2010, the fight broke out while priests were trying to repair the church’s rotting, collapsing roof: ”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/bethlehem-priests-brawl-at-church-of-the-nativity/2011/12/28/gIQAjA6RMP_blog.html?utm_term=.3e29b6595789

    ” There was a brawl today inside Bethlehem’s Church of the Nativity. “(video)
    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/12/28/144375924/video-monks-brawl-with-brooms-in-bethlehems-church-of-the-nativity

  9. It was also part of Roman law that from time to time one had to sacrifice incense to the Emperor. For Jews and Christians it was impossible to obey this law because it was in fundamental conflict with Monotheism and constituted an idolatrous act of apostasy from the faith. After some troubles the Jews were granted an exemption to this pagan religious obligation, and in return they had to bring an annual sacrifice in the Temple for the health and wellbeing of the Roman Emperor. But Christians from the Gentiles were not exempted and they were heavily persecuted.

    Of course the demand to sacrfice incense to the Emperor was a Roman law, in this case a law forcing a pagan religious observance on the population. The problem is that albeit a government can put all kinds of evil or nonsense in laws, this doesn’t make such laws righteous or just. You can for example try to persecute Jews by having circumcision prohibited by law, or Christians, by forcing them by law to acknowledge gay behaviour or transgenderism as good. The real critical point is, however: How far are you willing to go and what sense does it make to have such laws?

  10. Except for the fact, of course, that he was not at his great-grandfather’s side.

  11. “You can for example try to persecute Jews by having circumcision prohibited by law” The Seleucid king Antiochus Epiphanes, the proto-Antichrist so to speak, did exactly that during the inter-testamental era. It was the ending of that reign of terror and the subsequent cleansing of the Temple that is being celebrated right now during Hanukkah.

  12. Throughout history the different religions seem to take turns being oppressed and being the oppressor.

  13. No, Liar. Islamicists are not the “liberal left”. If anything the countries which propagate it get tons of support from Conservatives looking the other way in order to sell arms. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are two of the largest exporters of Islamicist terrorists but also allegedly “key allies” deserving of billions of dollars of economic and military aid.

  14. There is nothing evil or nonsense about anti-discrimination laws as pertaining to open commerce. Nor does religious freedom extend to harming others in the name of your faith. Discrimination is a recognized harm to others when it comes to open commerce and public spaces.

    Christians are not being persecuted in Dennis Lurvey’s examples. They are just annoyed they can’t persecute others.

  15. Courts have dealt with that prohibiting anyone from ignoring ‘generally applicable laws’, laws that are not targeted to any one group, in their decisions. Indians sued to do peyote for religious reasons, but it was prohibited for everyone in the drug laws so it was denied. Mormons sued to have plural marriage because of their beliefs but it was prohibited for everyone in the law, not just mormons. Jews wanted to kill chickens for sacrifice but they were denied because of animal cruelty laws, they can now do the ritual in chicken slaughter houses legally. None of these laws were invented to stop a certain group, nonsense laws, they were always there for the good of the general public.

    Laws the christians want, to be able to discriminate against gays because of a 2800 year old book, DO target a certain group.

  16. All true. But christians are blowing up abortion clinics because of their beliefs, christians refuse the marriages of gays because of their beliefs, christians are suing to be able to fire gays because they are gay because of christian beliefs, a christian woman here in Phoenix stabbed a woman in the chest because of her belief (she was an atheist), the woman killed in the riot by a car was done because of biblical belief, the killing of Jews is being done by christians who believe jews killed Jesus. The Israel/Palestine war is based on a story in the bible that is completely fictional, unattested to outside the bible.

    Religion kills.

  17. Of course. My personal belief is no one kills without mental illness. But people with mental illness need a motivating factor, something to obsess about, and many times that is religion.

  18. Or, in your case, obsessing about opposing religion.

  19. He could still ask for forgiveness for his great grandfather’s government’s actions. Much as other officials have apologized for their ancestor’s actions.

  20. I grew up baptist, been studying religion as a non believer for 15 years. I believe I have a full picture of religion, it’s history going back at least 4000 years, reasons for belief, history of why we believe and how belief started, who wrote the texts and why, and why they are not true. My conclusion is that it is unnecessary, divisive, and can be harmful if swallowed.

    The millions of moderates, part timers, half believers, are not the problem. It’s the fringes that are. You can call that obsessing if you choose. I think religion is a pothole that can and should be avoided.

  21. Yes, several commenters think they “have a full picture of religion”, aka “obsessing about opposing religion”.

    “The millions of moderates, part timers, half believers, are not the problem. It’s the fringes that are.”, the fringes of course consisting of those you disagree with.

    You and Susan Humphreys should get to know each other.

    You’re both on the same page.

  22. Yes, there is a word for people like that: appeaser.

    It is the noun for those who practice this verb:

    appease, verb:

    1 Pacify or placate (someone) by acceding to their demands. ‘amendments have been added to appease local pressure groups’

    2 Assuage or satisfy (a demand or a feeling) ‘we give to charity because it appeases our guilt’

    Apologizing for others in the past is nonsensical.

  23. the fringes being the roy moore’s that want to see all gays in prisons, women back in the home with their legs spread, christians prayers required in all schools, birth control illegal. yes, those are the people I don’t agree with.

  24. Beyond being able to state what you like, and what you like to throw in the mud and jump up and down on, you’re not advancing a position.

  25. I’m saying what I believe very clearly. If you don’t believe it than I’m not advancing it. but that isn’t the same as not being true.

  26. Yes, you are saying what you believe very clearly.

    And there are fora where that would be of interest to the participants, for example:

    https://disqus.com/home/forum/alternet/

    https://disqus.com/home/forum/bilgrimage/

    https://disqus.com/home/forum/friendlyatheist1/

    https://disqus.com/home/forum/www-aggiornamento-net/

    Here, where folks are trying to discuss religious news, the primary purpose of such comments appears to be trolling religious believers, throwing their religious beliefs (and their churches) into the mud, and jumping up and down on them while laughing loudly.

  27. “Jews wanted to kill chickens for sacrifice but they were denied because of animal cruelty laws ….”.

    Where in the world did that come from?

    Sacrifice in Judaism ended with the destruction of the Temple.

  28. Prince Charles? He has no road to god or theology or divine right to anything. Time for him and the other princes and princesses, queens and kings to get real jobs and to stop filling up newspapers and news channels with their pompous drivel.

  29. Neither Islam nor Judaism have any vested interest in saving Middle Eastern Christians, but the presence of Israel has actively tilted the Arab world against the Christians who lived there in relative peace all these centuries.

  30. There are people who believe, when I say what I believe as a non believer in god, that I am being dismissive or insulting to them. But when they way what they believe they are not. I should be able to say what I believe and why, and you say what you believe and why, without either of us being accused trolling or throwing beliefs into the mud. I state what I believe are facts, you do the same, and we go our separate ways unharmed, but more enlightened.

  31. Dennis, Democrats have sexually abused women and Democrats have shot and killed Republicans.

    Democrats kill.

  32. Of course. My personal belief is no one kills without mental illness. But people with mental illness need a motivating factor, something to obsess about, and many times that is religion..

  33. Sorry Dennis but if you look at the numbers, its marxism/socialism that accounts for the most murders in history.

  34. and there you go, getting away with blaming religion for the hundreds of millions of deaths caused by marxism/socialism.

  35. Christians being forced to worship the Roman emperor under penalty of death sounds pretty persecutory.

  36. Dennis,

    https://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/12/us/supreme-court-animal-sacrifice-court-citing-religious-freedom-voids-ban-animal.html

    deals with Santeria, not Judaism. Santeria is a Caribbean folk religion.

    http://www.endchickensaskaporos.com/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapparot

    The kapparot is a food item to be donated to charity. Money may be given instead. It is most assuredly not Jewish sacrifices, as the sacrifices ended with the destruction of the Temple. The practice is restricted primarily to the Ashkenazi Jews and Hasidim of Eastern Europe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_slaughter

    This has to do with ritual slaughter, NOT sacrifice.

    Jewish and Islamic ritual slaughter is necessary for the meat to be kosher or halal.

  37. A flowery way to say you are annoyed you have to treat others as human beings.

    Life is full of little disappointments. One of them is you can’t force everyone to do as your religion dictates.

    No, you aren’t being persecuted because you can’t act like a malicious bigot to others and harm their right of access to open commerce. You are not the victim you are a thwarted victimizer.

  38. Kapparot ritual. This was recent and in California.

  39. There is nothing in the tenents of Christianity that allows Christians to kill (except self-defense) or commit acts of violence. Leaders use it as a tool to achieve their goals. Zealots and the umbalamced convince themselves that they are justified when they commit acts of violence in the name of religion.

  40. “Indians sued to do peyote for religious reasons, but it was prohibited for everyone in the drug laws so it was denied”

    Wrong. The The Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1978 allows the use of peyote by Native Americans in religious ceremonies. There are several registered harvesters that collect the peyote. Non natives have sued for that right (including other hallucinogens) but have lost.

  41. And how does being forced, under penalty of death, to deny one’s religion and worship the emperor as a god, have anything to do with denying others “their right of access to open commerce”?

    So, being executed for fidelity to one’s faith is a “little disappointment” and an “annoyance”? For that is what Lurvey’s initial post referred to, and what I responded to.

    I am sure that if you were forced to deny your own beliefs under penalty of death, you would consider it more than a little annoyance!

  42. True that.

    And under Prohibition, the use of alcohol was generally forbidden, but it was allowed in certain religious ceremonies.

  43. From what I read in the news article and Wikipedia is that the chicken is waved over the person’s head and then slaughtered. In the article I read it was the animal rights groups in California that called it animal cruelty and took action. Slaughter or sacrifice – it’s a barbaric (and silly) ritual that is apparently allowed under US law.

  44. Any persecution of christians by the Arabs is on their own heads. Don’t blame Israel for that.

  45. “and MANY TIMES that is religion”. did I say ALL times? did I say the most in history?

  46. There are political and economic leaders who are heard and actually listened to, Trump being the most obvious example currently. Prince Charles and the Pope are heard, but they are not listened to.

  47. The U.S. Supreme Court reversed, holding that the free exercise clause of the First Amendment did not prohibit the State of Oregon from banning the sacramental use of peyote through its general criminal prohibition laws, or from denying unemployment benefits to persons dismissed from their jobs for such religiously inspired use.

    https://www.lectlaw.com/files/drg28.htm

  48. I disagree. ME Christians lived in relative peace under the Ottoman Empire which lasted 600 years. Within 70 years since Israel came into existence ME Christians have faced rising intolerance because of the animosity between the Arab world and Israel. Just on that account alone you cannot rule out Israel
    then you have Judaism’s relationship with Christianity, especially the Catholic Church, which is one of the worst between two faiths. Again the ME christians who are not Protestants, stand to lose.
    Churches have been torched and bibles burned in Israel. Anti Christianity is on the rise in the Holy land.

  49. See, that’s the problem with your comment- you’re not even picking the second biggest cause of murder/wars by targeting religion.

    I get fed up with the BBC & CNN always going on about the evils of fascism while giving marxism a free pass- the hundreds of millions of deaths it has brought about by justifying bloodshed in ‘revolutions’ cannot be continued to be brushed aside by leftist media. Doing so is an absolute bias.

    Stalin’s death toll was worse quite high- at least 6-8 million died of famines brought on his by his ideological nonsense and that doesn’t include his purge tally. So vile was communist Stalin that many Russian soldiers actually joined Hitler’s Reich to counter Stalin’s evil.
    But of course, the no-brain hipster generation over at reddit doesn’t like these facts so, blaming religion is positively hip there… maybe that’s where you belong, among your equally blind and disingenuous lying comrades?

    Just for once, could you target the biggest cause of murders and deaths on earth- MARXISTS who are applying their socialist/marxist dogma.

  50. Yes, I totally concur with what you’ve said here.

    There’s only one act of death(s) brought on at the hands of the church in the New Testament, and most people who disbelieve, would say it didn’t happen anyway or, if it did happen, it was just some sort of coincidence. I’m talking about Ananias & Sapphira.

  51. Your assessment of the ritual as silly indicates that you’re unaware of the actual ritual’s performance and have a low opinion of religious beliefs that conflict with your own sensitivities.

    Your assessment of the ritual as barbaric indicates that you took an overdose of propaganda put out by animal rights groups in California.

  52. In the first place, the Roman fiscus judaicus certainly targeted a specific group, namely the Jews, and, secondly, discrimination against “gays” doesn’t target a specific group but only a specific immoral behaviour, namely sodomy.

  53. ….because they can’t persecute others. Nope.

    They are just whiny bigots annoyed the law doesn’t allow them to maliciously harm people.

    Persecuted people suffer for their faith. These [insert favorite expletive here]’s are annoyed they can’t make others suffer for their faith.

  54. One of the requirements to be able to practice a religion in the empire was to have a text, which was written during the exile in babylon. The Jews were legal to practice in a specific area of rome, probably judea. Christians did not have a text till the third century at least and were given freedom/edict to practice in the fourth century.

    Sex was allowed between women because it wasn’t considered sex since there was no semen. Men together was common, called eunuchs in the bible. Men were allowed to be with younger men, not the same age. There was no laws about gender or age for sex though certain things were frowned upon. There are frescoes found all over rome depicting sex of all kinds, as well as on coins, statues, and dildos.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=sex+in+the+roman+empire&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS742US742&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyou6F8IjfAhWHHnwKHTTSDVMQ_AUIDygC&biw=1800&bih=858

  55. but the article we are commenting on is about religion.

  56. But off topic from the martyrbating Aliquantillus was doing.

  57. And how does being forced, under penalty of death, to deny one’s religion and worship the emperor as a god, have anything to do with denying others “their right of access to open commerce”?”

    Tell that to Aliquantillus who was claiming it was the same thing. You are arguing with the wrong person.

  58. And how does being forced, under penalty of death, to deny one’s religion and worship the emperor as a god, have anything to do with denying others their right of access to open commerce?

    -Rick Brant

  59. I certainly do have a low opinion of most religious ceremonies especially when an animal is involved.

    If someone eats the chicken that’s slaughtered I am willing to take back the barbaric descriptor.

  60. Thanks for the link. I hadn’t kept up with the issue.

  61. Christians are permitted to engage in war under some circumstances, but as citizens of the State.

  62. The target of my remarks has been the opening comment of Lurvey. You keep writing as if I was commenting on your pet target Aliquantius. I am not.

  63. The post of Aquilantius to which Shawnie was replying says NOTHING about “open commerce”, etc – upon which you seem to be fixated. Her reply was fully correct within the context of that post. It is YOU are improperly injecting the contents of a later post into an earlier post not addressing that particular subject.

  64. Of course it did. They were railing about anti discrimination laws and selling goods and services to people. About baking cakes. 😀

  65. I can’t help it if your Christian brethren can’t tell the difference between being persecuted and being whiny. Like you did.

  66. NOTHING about any of that in the post SHE WAS REPLYING TO.

    READ it.

  67. “or Christians, by humiliating them by law to celebrate gay weddings.”

    It was in there.

  68. Thank you, Rick. My reply was mainly about pointing out the irony of minimizing despicable Roman laws attacking the free exercise of religious faith right in the middle of a Jewish holiday which celebrates the end on one such attack and which our favorite phony-baloneys around here would not dream of denigrating.

  69. So now you have altered your argument from “right of access to open commerce” to “gay weddings”. Slick move, but it won’t work.

    The phrase “humiliating them by law to celebrate gay weddings” was paired with “to persecute Jews by having circumcision prohibited by law”. Both the Rite of Marriage and the Rite of Circumcision are religious observances, the banning or perversion of the religious celebrations by law would indeed be considered humiliating/persecutory by the faithful of the religions concerned.

    And these religious rites have NOTHING to do with the “open commerce” you keep droning on about.

  70. All this is irrelevant, because Jews and Christians never acknowledged that the Roman Empire had any legitimate authority in matters of religion.

  71. I read your link. When did the Ottoman Empire get blamed for the Armenian massacre? Turkey has vehemently denied culpability and Turkey has most of the documents on that massacre. Everything regarding the Middle East and the Fall of the Ottoman Empire beginning in the early 20th century is not that cut and dry.

  72. No Empire becomes an Empire by acts of piety. but when you include such questionable and highly charged issue of the genocide of Christians as an act carried out by Muslims, I have to deal with your reasoning why you did that. The Armenian genocide took place in 1915 and the Russian Revolution in 1917.
    In 1916 France and England were carving up the Middle East and set into motion the collapse of the Ottoman Empire through the Sykes/ Picot Agreement.
    The Ottoman Empire was allied with a powerful Christian European nation. in world war one. I cannot fathom them slaughtering Christians while allied with the Germans.
    Finally Mark when it comes to the Wiki and that time of history in this age of censorship do not trust the wiki. that source of information
    IS quick to accuse other groups
    and
    Quick to make excuses for one group

  73. yea, but they didn’t make the rules. Jesus was crucified for treason, upsetting the social order, by preaching an illegal religion.

  74. Your “Polly Pure Ottomans” took on water and sank some time ago.

    The idiocy of Woodrow Wilson, and the perfidy of the British and French, are another topic.

  75. Nobody is pure and certainly nobody is chosen or belongs to a chosen group. Those who believe in that notion tend to be some of the worst around.

  76. Have a nice life.

    Try to avoid Holocaust denial.

  77. Same to you Mark and I never denied that Holocausts happened in Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne, Frankfurt, Berlin, but others do.

  78. Every wedding I have attended (several religions) has been “gay.”
    None has been same-sex.
    George

  79. There us enough open commerce that those seeking services have many places to go, but don’t for they are attempting to make a point that their perversion has been accepted by other perverts and they can force their will on Christians. You do not see these cowards going after Muslim bakers etc… for they will fight back and not with lawyers. The fact is these evil leftist want to force change in Christianity, thus dilute it and make it worthless.

    Just because someone wants to make a living or open a business they should not have to give up or betray their religious beliefs. If the government wants to force the issue, then the government (people like you) should have to guarantee the business success, profits and protection from lawsuits for being forced to higher those whom are not in line with the owners beliefs. For if you are going to force a business owner to go against their beliefs and own good judgement, then it is on you and the government to agree to take on all the risk and responsibility.

  80. Then I guess you would say that a males prostitute refusing whom is straight and refuses to engage in homosexual acts is discriminating against possible customers. Or not hiring a pedophile at a day care would be considered discriminatory.

    People should not be forced to violate their religious beliefs to be employed, earn a living, or open a business. There are numerous places these perverts persecuting Christians can go to buy or get services, it is all about their hatred and desire to force others to embrace their perversions.

  81. No, it is people like you whom hate Christians so much and are so bigoted you will not let them live their lives with out accepting your perversions. You want to force people to participate or do things that will undermine their position of faith. This just shows how evil you are when people like you will not do the same demands on Muslims.

  82. It is Christians like yourself who seem to hate others and are bigoted. They are so deranged by such bigotry that they demand a right to attack others without consequence. They can’t even remotely act in a civil manner to people because of their religious faith. Not a problem for the rest of us.

    People have a right to go to stores open to the public and purchase wares which are offered to everyone. If it is a problem for you, don’t open a store to the general public. Lest you be contaminated by the presence of those who do not share your views and may force you to act like a normal non bigoted respectable vendor.

    ” You want to force people to participate or do things that will undermine their position of faith.”

    If their faith involves treating people as less than human in all public interaction, then YES. Because one’s faith is not an excuse to harm others. Just like I want want to force people to avoid doing things in service of their faith to harm others like witch burning and human sacrifice.

    You are pretending to be persecuted because you can’t persecute others. You are immoral and dishonest in bringing me such whiny complaints and demands for privilege.

    If anti-discrimination laws are a problem for you, its your problem. Not mine. Not my concern.

  83. If I wanted to say that I would. That seems a rather unusual analogy to make. Not even remotely on point with my statement. I am not even going to pretend its worth addressing.

    “People should not be forced to violate their religious beliefs to be employed, earn a living, or open a business.”

    Depends on what their religious beliefs involve. If they involve harming others in service of their faith, they most certainly must. Your right to discriminate in open commerce is the same as your right to perform human sacrifice, enslave others, or burn a cross on someone else’s lawn. None whatsoever.

    You want a special privilege to harm others or just treat them as less than human without consequence. You are not only a bigot, but a c0ward. Someone who wants to treat others maliciously but too afraid to face the consequences.

    Sorry, but you are not being persecuted because you can’t persecute others. You are just whiny. You dishonor and insult fellow Christians who are actually persecuted for their beliefs and suffering real damages by pretending your petty bigoted concerns are on the same level.

  84. So you want separate but equal facilities for such people. Where they can purchase their wares without having to come into contact with you.

    “Separate but equal” using religion as a pretext…where have I heard this before?

    So you want segregation based on your personal bigotry using religious belief as a justification. Sorry buddy we did that before. It was awful crap. No need to do it again.

    “You do not see these cowards going after Muslim bakers etc… for they will fight back and not with lawyers.”

    I see the example used by bigots like yourself but no real world examples of it happening or of them lobbying for such things. (Because they apparently are smart enough to know people like you would refuse them service on the same grounds).

    “For if you are going to force a business owner to go against their beliefs and own good judgement, then it is on you and the government to agree to take on all the risk and responsibility.”

    Not if their beliefs involve harming others in the name of their faith. The need to protect civil liberties and keep open commerce free of discrimination is far greater than your need to be a malicious d-bag to people using religion as a pretext.

  85. Try reading the entire response and a then respond and address the issues for all those you do not address are your concession of thge facts and logic.

    Your word show that you hate Christians so much that it blinds you to common sense. And of course as a hater of Christians and Jews you show what you have in common with Nazis and the Muslims. You have left out the cowardliness of people like you with your views refusing to take on Muslims the same way.It is called the right to refuse services. You also failed to address that these people bring these cases had plenty of other places to go to for what they wanted, but sought out these business for the purpose of forcing them to violate their beliefs and belittling their religion. You also left out that these businesses serve those asking for those services regularly, just refuse to do things that violate their belief.

    A person refusing to participate in a particular act or promote it due to their religious beliefs is not hatred. A person insisting that another give up or violate their religious beliefs is hatred and denying them the right to do so is discriminatory. As for the forcing an employer to hire those whom are against their own beliefs, it is bad business for would not benefit the employer or their business. Additionally if you are forcing that, then you have just taken on the responsibility of the success of the business, any negative impact of that employee and all civil liability caused by that employee ad their actions. That is common sense.

    I remember when those suing now use to state just let us do as we do, leave us alone and we will not push our ways on you or your acceptance. Christians and others whom know their are are perversions agreed. That was a lie and deceit to get the first step. Now it is them forcing their will on others and denying others their rights. Freedom of religion is in the Constitution and forcing people to accept perversions and promote them is not. On the other hand, you have had leftist homosexual; owned business refuse service to Christians and those on the right and all these good people do is take their business elsewhere and it is a loss to the business owner. It is to bad animals like you cannot reciprocate and act like civilized people. You should have no objection to be called an animal for you do not believe in God and your system looks at all as animals.

    Show some common courtesy and read the entire response before attempting to respond. Your frailer to address the issues and comments I have made and just spout your hatred shows you have no argument and concede my points.

  86. That was a rather triggered rant on your part. I am ignoring stuff from you which is unworthy of response. Which is most of it apparently.

    There was nothing there that is novel or hasn’t been argued before by blatant bigots seeking special privilege to harm others and using religion as a pretext. You are not looking like a rational or intellectual person by relying on euphemisms and overgeneralized arguments to avoid the specifics. Dishonest bullcrap. Been there, seen that from people far less emotionally excitable than you.

    You want a right to discriminate against gays in all manners of public areas and accommodations. Segregation. You even called for “separate but equal” facilities for gays, lest you have contact with them and their need to be customers like everyone else. That puts you on the same level as every other segregationist. Immoral scum giving me excuses.

    This has nothing to do with Christianity. Plenty of Christians do not share your derangement and are willing to treat others in a civil manner as expected in society. It has to do with you defining your Christian faith by whom you hate. You seek special privileges to harm others in your faith. That is no different from all sorts of religious fundamentalists persecuting others. You don’t actually understand or appreciate religious freedom.

    “A person refusing to participate in a particular act or promote it due to their religious beliefs is not hatred.”

    You are a dishonest person who thinks rephrasing an act changes it. What you are asking for is to deny people goods and services in open commerce. Nothing more. All because you claim your religion absolves you of the need to treat others like human beings. You want to deliberately harm people in the name of your faith. Yes, discrimination in open commerce is a legally recognized harm.

    “I remember when those suing now use to state just let us do as we do, leave us alone and we will not push our ways on you or your acceptance.”

    You are full of crap. You don’t want to be left alone. You want to impose on others. You have a business open to the public, you have a duty to serve the public. The price you pay is following laws pertaining to all businesses and protecting the customers from discrimination.

    If you want to be be discriminatory, do business in closed commerce and leave us all alone. (Word of mouth, membership club, only do business in certain venues). That is perfectly legal.

    But you are spineless and dishonest. You want all the advantages of a civil open commerce and none of the obligations.

    “You should have no objection to be called an animal for you do not believe in God and your system looks at all as animals.”

    You’re a hostile little spud aren’t you! So many epithets and insults. Yet you accuse me of being a hater, funny.

  87. The length of your response is a rant of typical hatred and refusing to address what was stated shows your concession of your evil and illogical thought that promotes one side and only the side of perversion. You have shown that you are dishonest by comparing things that are not relate, happened centuries ago or are just plain bate and switch.

    You demand a right to persecute and force your will on others. You have made comments accusing me of statements I have not made thus showing your dishonesty and hatred. Do not pretend you care about or support Christians for that is a lie. You make excuses for your words, actions and deceit. It is like the Dems in 1986 saying we will trade you the citizenship of all these people for the building of a wall. They got what they wanted and have since refused to build the wall and are now demanding even more. You as they cannot be trusted.

    There are many fake Christians in the world whom sell out their religion for dollars. Many whom just pretend to be Christians to get votes or get a head. They undermine the religion and people of true faith. The Socialist in Germany show the same hatred of religion as you do and forced their will on people of faith and use the same tactics your ilk is guilty of. Christians are not seeking to harm or do anything to others, just to be left alone and not forced to violate their faith while earning a living. It is you and yours that seek to force your will on other and make them violate their faith for then they can be damned as you all are. Your demand of their violation of faith actually shows you do not understand or appreciate religious freedom.

    Not participating in something is not discrimination. The laws that have pushed to say people can be forced to violate their faith to participate in open commerce or making a living harm basic protection of the US Constitution. They have been put in to place by corrupt and immoral people attempting to dismantle religion and make people of faith the criminal. They support the perversion in society to undermine it and show that the rule of law is now the rule of the corrupt and dishonesty. All in the name of power and control. These laws basically say if you want to live, comply or you can no longer earn a living.

    Yes, You are full of crap. You don’t want to be left alone but demand the right to go after Christians. You still refuse to address that Muslim business are not treated the same. You still refuse to address that it has been shown these people in these suits have sought out business to attack, by going business to business seeking a response from people of faith. That is targeted hatred, deceit and immoral. They could get those services elsewhere, but refuse to do so for it does not further their agenda of hatred.

    Your comments of being spineless and dishonest just reflect on you and your inability to be honest with yourself as you describe your ways and intention and try to project them on others to prevent people from looking at what you represent. If you do not like Christians, then stop stealing our dollars as taxes to support your perversion.

  88. You are still just doing nothing but flinging poo and being a whiny dishonest bigot with only one point to make:

    You feel persecuted because you can’t treat people like crap without repercussion. You poor baby. Need a diaper change there?

    You are not oppressed because you have to treat customers of a business open to the public like human beings. You are just whiny. You have nothing in common with people actually persecuted for their religious faith. You are demanding to be a persecutor. That is just ridiculous immoral garbage.

    You make a mockery of the term and concept of religious freedom. You want nothing more than special privilege for being a Christian. Tough luck. A free society that appreciates freedom of religion can never allow such a thing.

    You are so unoriginal and dripping with bile and hate that you recycle arguments used for justifying Jim Crow. Even to the point of repeating nonsense about “separate but equal” commerce. Or even worse more obvious about “separate but inferior because they need to suffer for being what they are”

    “You still refuse to address that it has been shown these people in these suits have sought out business to attack”

    Nobody forced those businesses to break the laws and discriminate against the customers. You are complaining about people getting caught acting badly. That is a pretty vile and ridiculous argument for anyone who respects rule of law.

    “You still refuse to address that Muslim business are not treated the same. ”

    Because you are lying. There is no proof they are doing so or seeking discrimination like yourself. I don’t have to address something you never established as true.

    “Not participating in something is not discrimination.”

    You are a lying sack of crap.

    “Not participating” is a phony euphemism to mean denying people goods and services in open commerce. It is discrimination in the most obvious way.

    You are either stupid enough or think I am stupid enough to believe calling the same action something else changes it. There is nothing honest or moral about such an argument. Your religion is not an excuse to harm others. Pure and simple. Denial and rephrasing doesn’t change that.

    You are a c0ward who can’t own up to their own bigotry and malice towards others. So you pretend it is religious belief. All to avoid the obvious criticism your view deserves and invites.

    If you don’t like treating people like human beings, go live in a cave. Don’t ask or expect others to give you a free pass to attack others.

    As for “hating Christians”, you seem to show a lot of hate towards everyone else. You have been throwing around insults and epithets constantly. You seem a bit thin skinned about being called out on such rude behavior. How very snowflake behavior.

    Take your martyrbating elsewhere. You are not the oppressed. Nobody needs to take your call for Jim Crow 2.0 seriously. You defile and defame all manner of Christians suffering actual oppression by your venal desire to act like a malicious d-bag.

  89. It is useless to attempt logic and have an intelligent discussion with such a corrupt and immoral person whom is so full of hatred that he cannot recognize it is blinding him to facts and an honest debate. You continue to deflect and refuse to address the issues while you project your own hatred and bigotry onto others. You call others cowards while you are safe behind the screen action so big, but showing how small you really are. I ask how much time did you serve in war zones, how many times has your life been on the line? None. You are one whom hides behind the PC and will not face to face confront those you hate and despise and what to suppress.

    You an your ilk are the prosecutes of good and promoters of evil and enslavement. Your very comments denounce religious freedom and demand those whom want it should surrender their livelihood and die. Your statement show you are against people of faith and believe it should be outlawed. A free society that appreciates freedom of religion does not force people of faith to choose between their God and faith and that of being allowed to earn a living and prosper.

    You still refuse to acknowledge the cowardice of not applying the same standard to Muslims or Homosexuals having businesses. They have been caught on tape and nothing done for you are willing to allow and promote it if it destroys or undermines Christians. attack peaceful Christians for it is safe for cowards, but not safe to treat all such as Muslims the same way. Treating Muslims that way would take guts and a person will to apply the standards across the board and not a selective bigot like yourself. There are undercover videos of Muslims doing the exact same type of thing, where is your outrage?

    With the millions of place to purchase goods and services no one is denying anyone the ability to get what they want unless it is to force someone to participate in immoral and evil acts. You seem to be such a little snow flake. If not confront me in person or continue hiding like a little baby. Like Antifi which are fascist and socialist and violent, you hide behind the PC like they cover their faces.

    Why don’t you go to one of your immoral socialist paradises to live. The founders of this country would denounce you and your ilk as traitors to freedom and the Constitution. You talk of treating them like humans, but that is not the way you treat people of faith for you demand they give up their soul or be tormented so you can have the pleasure of denouncing and belittle their faith. That is rear evil.That is real intolerance!

    You appear to be one of those give everyone a trophy for it would hurt their feelings type people. Or one of those you cannot tell Billy 1 + 1 is not 11 for it would hurt his self esteem. I am repeatedly called you out as a snow flake which is what leftist are for they are cowards and get so upset when they don’t get their way, they need safe places. You have repeatedly confirm your hatred of Christians and cannot argue simple facts or follow simple logical paths.

    As for “hating Christians”, you seem to show a lot of hate towards everyone else. You have been throwing around insults and epithets constantly. You seem a bit thin skinned about being called out on such rude behavior. How very snowflake behavior.

    You throw terms around like Jim Crow , etc,,, to shut people up and that is what leftist do. When they cannot win a debate, the racist, bigot labels start flying. Or you start doing comparisons which are outrageous or do not even exist.

    I think you mommy calling you to clean up your room and let you know dinners ready.

  90. They didn’t make the rules, yet in the end their will was done and Christianity became the legal religion of the Roman Empire.

  91. You haven’t attempted logic or an intelligent discussion. You are simply giving me dishonest euphemisms, slinging poo at a variety of targets and acting like a whinybaby. You seem to love to dish out insults but are thin skinned about receiving a response. You are an immature snowflake.

    I have zero respect for your views and I don’t have to care that you claim it has a religious basis. You are entitled to your belief. I am entitled also to call them hateful dishonest worthless garbage. Religious freedom is like that.

    What neither of us are entitled to is to harm others in service of our beliefs. You are not being oppressed if you are criticized or punished for acting badly to others.

    “Not participating” somehow is exactly the same action as what bigots do when they discriminate against other groups and for other alleged reasons. Denying people goods and services in open commerce to classes of people in a malicious fashion. Go figure.

    Poor little whinybaby is annoyed he doesn’t have the privilege to tell people, “Go —- yourself, I don’t serve your kind”. Oh well. If that’s so important to your belief, its speaks badly of your belief.

    Religious freedom has a clear limit. You can’t harm others in the name of your religion. You are demanding a privilege akin to murdering heretics, witch burning, human sacrifice, or other forms of persecution. Your argument is not only garbage, its immoral. It is nothing more than cheap excuses for malice.

    You have nothing worth reading. Its funny how I can refute all the useless text you put out with a single meme
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fa/c5/af/fac5aff09cffcea97267ceafa1560433.jpg

  92. Keep up with your lies and hate speech. It is people like you that have brought down every great nation in history. Refusing to participate in something is not hate, it is not bigotry, not immoral, especially when the act is immoral and is used to undermine people’s faith and religion and demean them and that is exactly what you do.

    You parasite leftist do nothing but demand what is not yours, whine, undermine and demand the right to suppress or infringe on others rights for your rights are more important. You are the I ate my cake and now I want yours crowd. You cannot even come up with your own terms trying to use the Snowflake label which was specifically assigned to you leftist wienies whom get so upset when things do not go your way.

    The Constitution does not say you can force people to participate in things nor does it allow the violation of people’s religion. It does say that the government cannot make any laws that restrict the exercise of ones faith. The problem is we have 100 times the lawyers we need in this country and they are willing break, bend, or corrupt the law for fame, power and money. They have stop promoting justice and the good a long time ago.

    You are correct that I have zero respect for your views and for you are not my fellow American but a world order socialists, Christian hater, America hater.

    Refusing to take part is not harming or hating. Under your definition those whom k refuse anything then are harming others and haters. You talk of religious beliefs not being able to do things, that shows you have none. You cannot help your self but relate such little acts of I will not do that immoral thing as those which happened decades and even centuries ago.

    What neither of us are entitled to is to harm others in service of our beliefs. You are not being oppressed if you are criticized or punished for acting badly to others.

    Religious freedom has a limit is not where you evil people put it. You want it there to undermine and demean people of faith.

    This comment by you “You are demanding a privilege akin to murdering heretics, witch burning, human sacrifice, or other forms of persecution.” shows just how irrational you are and your true goal of suppression of the faith of others. I agree that your argument is not only garbage, its immoral and is nothing more than cheap excuses for malice and contempt you have for people of faith.

    You still cannot refute my claims that it is the Christians and Jews that you attack like cowards. Show us your bravery and hold others to the same standard, especially the Muslims and homosexuals. I am ready to face you anytime in person. Oh, sorry you cannot for your limited to internet attacks and hiding whom yo are. Your moms calling telling you it is bed time little boy. Again, I am a disabled combat vet and still not afraid of whiny snowflakes like you.

  93. I am not the one demanding a privilege to discriminate against others. Hater is a label which describes your position best. There is nothing moral about your position. There is no bravery in acting like a malicious dbag to people and expecting no repercussions. You gravely insult people persecuted for their belief with your whining about wanting to persecute others.

    You are a snowflake as well. More than willing to fling insult but too afraid to see it returned as expected.

    Your version of religious freedom is garbage. It is nothing more than demanding special privileges over others. The very opposite of the term. Your definition of Christian belief is garbage as well. There is nothing of value in using God as a excuse for malice. I don’t ever have to give a crap, not can you force me to. That is religious freedom.

    The only hate here is what you bring here. If you were treated as you wish to do to others, you would scream bloody murder. How hypocritical and just plain stupid on your part. The only thing people are suppressing from you is the harm you do to others. What any civilized society does. Rule of law and civil interaction with others mean nothing to you. You want to be treated special for being a christian. How pathetic. spineless bigotry at its most obvious.

    Run back to Breitbart or Townhall, where people are less likely to figure out how stupid and empty your spiel is.

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