Pastors lead prayer during a service hosted by the Love Your Neighbor Coalition at the Holiday Inn in St. Louis on Feb. 27, 2019. The LGBTQ-affirming group hosted the service the morning after the special session of the UMC General Conference closed. RNS photo by Emily McFarlan Miller

'In this to the end': LGBT United Methodists express hurt, hope after vote

Attendees sing during a service hosted by the Love Your Neighbor Coalition at the Holiday Inn in St. Louis on Feb. 27, 2019, the morning after the special session of the UMC General Conference closed. RNS photo by Emily McFarlan Miller

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

ST. LOUIS (RNS) — “We’re in this to the end,” sang LGBTQ United Methodists and their allies.

They prayed. They hugged. They pulled out more chairs as people packed a worship service hosted by the LGBTQ-affirming Love Your Neighbor Coalition on Wednesday morning (Feb. 27) in a meeting room at the Holiday Inn, a day after a three-year-long push to make their church more inclusive had been blocked.

Many at the worship service committed to staying in a denomination that voted Tuesday (Feb. 26) to reiterate language in the Book of Discipline, its rulebook, saying LGBTQ people could not marry or be ordained in its churches.

RELATED: United Methodists pass Traditional Plan, keep ban on LGBTQ clergy, same-sex marriage

“Our work is to live like that Book of Discipline no longer exists and to be the church,” said the Rev. David Meredith, an Ohio pastor who has faced denominational discipline hearings since he married his longtime partner in 2016.

Bishop Cynthia Fierro Harvey announces the results of the Traditional Plan vote late on Feb. 26, 2019. RNS photo by Kit Doyle

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

“Let us not step back from challenging, resisting, everything — ignoring the book so that we can simply be beloved children of God and the beloved people of God,” Meredith said.

The 864 delegates to the United Methodist Church General Conference, the global denomination’s decision-making body, passed the Traditional Plan, the most conservative of three plans proposed, with 53 percent of the vote.

The plan strengthens the enforcement of language regarding LGBTQ United Methodists written into the rulebook in 1972 that states that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching” and that “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” cannot be ordained as ministers, appointed to serve or be married in the church.

The special session of the General Conference, it was hoped, would allow the church to move forward together despite deep, decades-long divides over the inclusion of its LGBTQ members. The three plans were presented by a specially appointed Commission on a Way Forward that delegates had approved when their regular 2016 meeting came to a stalemate over the debate.

The options also included the One Church Plan, recommended by the denomination’s Council of Bishops, that would have allowed individual churches and regional conferences to decide whether to ordain and marry LGBTQ people.

Bishop Sally Dyck addresses constituents during a break of the special session of the UMC General Conference on Feb. 26, 2019, in St. Louis. RNS photo by Kit Doyle

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

But LGBTQ United Methodists and their supporters still see reason for hope.

In April, the Traditional Plan goes to the denomination's top court, the Judicial Council, which already has found parts of it to be unconstitutional. Not all of those parts were able to be amended by delegates before they approved the plan.

The Rev. Jeff Greenway — chair of the conservative Wesleyan Covenant Association, which advocated for the Traditional Plan — told the United Methodist News Service he worries the plan as approved by the General Conference has “no teeth” and “little likelihood of accountability.”

RELATED: Grieving, but not leaving, the United Methodist Church (COMMENTARY)

And the Rev. Mark Holland — a delegate and executive director of Mainstream UMC — which advocated for the One Church Plan, called the Traditional Plan's passage merely a “symbolic victory” in a post on the Mainstream UMC website.

The plan that was passed was “gutted” and “had nothing in it,” Holland wrote in his post. An exit plan that was passed also was “fatally flawed,” he said.

“In reality we passed no legislation at General Conference. … We are essentially at status quo,” he said.

After $3.7 million to put this week's meeting together and a wrenching three days of deliberations, in other words, the United Methodist Church has only marginally more clarity on its future than when the meeting began.

But the vote still hurt many who support a full welcome of LGBTQ members.

Two people hug each other in worship during a service hosted by the Love Your Neighbor Coalition at the Holiday Inn in St. Louis on Feb. 27, 2019. RNS photo by Emily McFarlan Miller

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

Jen Ihlo, a delegate from the Baltimore-Washington Conference, said it is hard for her to believe the Judicial Council “will do the right thing," she said. “But we'll see."

Numb and exhausted after the General Conference, Ihlo said she came to the Love Your Neighbor Coalition's worship service Wednesday because she needed to be with her community. She needs to rest and recover from the exhaustion before she can decide what to do next, she said.

“I was baptized and confirmed in the United Methodist Church, but that church doesn’t seem to exist anymore. It's judgmental. It's divisive, it's harmful. And that's not what Jesus preached,” she said.

“That was why I needed to be here. And that's what I was hoping for and fighting for as a delegate.”

Delegates attend the first day of deliberations at the special session of the United Methodist Church General Conference in St. Louis on Feb. 24, 2019. RNS photo by Kit Doyle

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

The Wesleyan Covenant Association Council also met Wednesday and Thursday to analyze the decisions made by the General Conference and determine its next steps.

Before the vote, the Rev. Keith Boyette, president of the WCA, had said he would recommend the association leave the United Methodist Church and form its own denomination if LGBTQ members were permitted to become clergy and marry.

On Wednesday, Boyette said, such a split was “unlikely.” But a split is not always a bad thing, he said, pointing to examples in the Bible when people parted ways. He had submitted legislation calling for the dissolution of the denomination, he added, though it ultimately was not included in the legislation considered by the special session.

But few delegates and observers opposing the Traditional Plan in St. Louis expressed a determination to leave. Many had spoken throughout the week about the church as their home or as their family.

“Centrist and progressives never wanted a divorce. We never were looking for a gracious exit. We were looking for a little more space,” said the Rev. Adam Hamilton, a prominent pastor and delegate from the Great Plains Conference who had advocated the One Church Plan.

On Tuesday, Hamilton said from the floor that those who had voted for the Traditional Plan had not just alienated progressive United Methodists, but also those in the middle. They’d also inspired a number of people who hadn’t been engaged in the debate, but now were hurt, angry — and energized.

Afterward, he tweeted that his Kansas church was looking into holding a meeting with bishops and other key leaders to discuss “where Methodism goes from here.”

Pastors lead prayer during a service hosted by the Love Your Neighbor Coalition at the Holiday Inn in St. Louis on Feb. 27, 2019. The LGBTQ-affirming group hosted the service the morning after the special session of the UMC General Conference closed. RNS photo by Emily McFarlan Miller

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

But many of the speakers Wednesday said they knew where they were going.

“I ain’t going nowhere,” said Adama Hathaway-Brown, a certified candidate for ministry in the New England Conference, who identified as a "same-gender-loving woman."

“There are just too many people to serve and I’ve come way too far to leave them now.”

In her conference, she said, there are people to feed at the soup kitchen; veterans and senior citizens to reach; and a number of people wanting to worship in a community that welcomes and affirms LGBTQ people. They were there before the General Conference, she said, and they are still there after the meeting.

There also is a generation coming up that needs to see them be the light in a dark world, added Dan Levine, a ministry candidate in the New York Conference, who identified as transgender. Levine came out after seeing the example of so many at the 2016 General Conference, he said, and he wants to do the same for others.

And that’s not unique to the church in the U.S., said the Rev. Kennedy Thomas Mwita of the Kenya-Ethiopia Annual Conference. While African United Methodists have been characterized as unanimously supportive of the Traditional Plan, he told the group he supported them as an ally.

“You have brothers and sisters in Africa who need this kind of hope,” Mwita said.

J.J. Warren, a delegate from the Upper New York Conference, addresses the UMC General Conference on Feb. 26, 2019, in St. Louis. RNS photo by Kit Doyle

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

J.J. Warren, a delegate from the Upper New York Conference, said he wasn’t sure just the day before if the church was going to be his home.

Earlier in the week, Warren’s speech on the conference floor about his experience as a gay student reaching out to others at his college with a message of God's love had drawn cheers and applause from observers and tons of shares on social media. With it came messages asking how he felt after the Traditional Plan vote and what he was going to do.

But joining a room full of LGBTQ-affirming and welcoming United Methodists gathered together as a church showed him he was home, he said. It showed him what the church was.

“We are the church,” Warren said. “The General Conference is not the church.”


  1. When they chant, “We are in this to the end,” they are expressing their present devotion to not being truly of one accord with us. We know it is good to love and pray for them as we do that for all enemies; however, it’s obvious that we cannot be share unity with them in their present state of being. It’s evident they are wolves in sheep’s clothing. What loving and reasonable father would invite packs of ravenous wolves into his home to share a dinner meal with his family?

  2. So they will stay, and continue trying to undermine their denomination from within.

    That is ever the “progressives” play book.

    But if at some future conference they happen to come out on top, you can bet it will be “The matter is closed” and “Time to move on.”

  3. Follow the events in the Episcopal Church from 1974 to today, or the continental Old Catholics from circa 1960 to today, and you see how “accepting” the progressives are – right up to the moment they get control.

    Inside every progressive is a totalitarian screaming to get out.

  4. Shame on you for calling your LGBTQ Christian Brothers and Sisters “enemies”!!

  5. You are a devilish liar, pervert, and genocidal baby killer.
    Jesus Christ says that you say good is evil: you say evil is good: you say truth are lies: you say lies are truth.
    I say, you are a domestic enemy. I say if a civil war to put down slavery was good, then it is good to have a civil war to put down the pervert genocidal baby killers.
    I say, not only are you depraved, demented, and dangerous, but you are a domestic enemy. It is evident that domestic enemies are not our fellow Americans. I guess that covers it all.

  6. No one who is moral and reasonable would even consider taking your advice. We have nothing in common but geography, and even the MS13 and ISIS members that are here have geography in common with us. Don’t go thinking we speak the same language. We may use the same words, but even basic words like truth; decency; justice; liberty; and security have generally opposite meanings for us.

  7. Democrats and members of ISIS share the same character content in spite of their personality differences.

  8. The Methodist Demomination, like all the big prostestant denominations, have been over-ran by ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing, and they live to steal, kill, and destroy.

  9. Everything Mark posts is garbage. He is not worth responding to.

  10. So you are the new sockpuppet for Mark Connelly/Bob Armzen/Jose Carioca.

  11. I think i told you this morning that I don’t write for the pervert genocidal baby killing enemies. Nothing good can come from discussions with monstrous enemies who are devoted to lies.

  12. For years, there have been those who have ignored scripture and The Book of Discipline. They will continue this path just as the article states. Why? Because they can. They weren’t stopped before and they aren’t going to stop now. Those who oppose the vote know that there will be no action taken against them. This vote is paper only.

  13. Well, this is the same individual who claims “democrats and members of ISIS share the same character content.” Just gushes Jesus 🙄

  14. I sometimes wonder that some sit behind a computer and think, “let’s see now, how can I make Christians look as mean, ignorant, blind and misguided as possible?”

  15. There is nothing left for anyone to stay for in a house this divided. The conservatives there will discover in time that they wrought a bitter fruit by making this their new signature issue.

  16. You may want to consider coordinating with patrick, Elgalabus, Ben in Oakland, and one or two others as to who is who.

    Or are you folks all showering together with the same hands?

  17. HOW ABOUT THAT: RNS’ Tobin Grant was right 3 years ago! The Un-Schismatic Split at UMC is meant to be permanent & forever! But I’m keeping score, and it’s now HAPPILY standing at:

    UMC Traditionalists 1 : 0 UMC Elitists

    GO TRADS GO !!!!!!

    “Acceptance of homosexuality in society does not mean that [UMC] members believe that it should be accepted in the church. … In the UMC, the membership is split with 49 percent favoring same-sex marriage and 43 percent opposing it. … The Pew Religious Landscape Study poll[ing] more than 35,000 Americans in 2014 … did not ask about the ordination of LGBT clergy [because it would] assume that the membership would be evenly divided or lean against ordination. [If anything] the poll shows that the division at the general meeting reflects a division within the church membership. Unlike other mainline denominations, Methodists are not solidly in favor of accepting homosexuality and they are split over same-sex marriage.”

    Source: Tobin Grant, “How do Methodists view homosexuality and same-sex marriage? Some poll results”, Religion News Service, May 18, 2016.

  18. And yet again, another article from RNS in which the photos exclusively highlight the LGBT side.

    Not a single photo of Traditionalists praying, singing etc., even though they comprised the majority.

    The unsubtle propaganda of the Religious News Service.

  19. The poster boy for that sort of thing is the Episcopal Church.

    Once it became clear that even a bishop could not be tried successfully for heresy for denying Christ was the Son of God and the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the party was over.

    The Book of Discipline provides for the removal of congregations in heresy, and at some point that needs to happen as it did in the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran churches.

  20. If you see where the RNS articles appear you get a pretty good idea of their market, e.g. The National Catholic Reporter.

  21. Far better at putting up a coherent argument and post. 😀

  22. Do note that the “conservatives” were not the ones who made this their signature issue.

  23. If you consider the cited post “a coherent argument”, I can understand your problem.

  24. Not a denial. Fair enough. No need to read your posts.

  25. You do realize, don’t you, that Bob Arnzen / Mark Connelly / Bill Paca, also has “Art” now going as well, don’t you? Our Bob is a very busy bee on the computer these days hopping around from one identity to another.

  26. Remember there is no such thing as practicing lgbtq Christians.if they don’t practice and professs celibacy they’re ‘ NOT ‘ Christians.

  27. Wrong. It was not the Traditionalist that wrought the bitter fruit. The UMC has The Book of Discipline, which is based upon scripture, to govern it. It was a socialist push by the LBGTQ community within the church to delete the wording regarding homosexuality. There is no hatred nor bigotry simply, because we believe this lifestyle is not God honoring. There are many in positions of leadership who ignored what scripture says, because it doesn’t suit them. They chose to subvert from within and do as they pleased thinking they could steamroll those who disagreed with them. Again, my belief is that because there will be no consequences for going against scripture or the book of discipline things will remain status quo for sometime.

  28. Both Ron M.and TS(clown) are ‘advocates ‘ “ AGAINST “
    GOD/JESUS and His scripture.

  29. Whatever you say, Mark-Bob-Art…

  30. Apparently, “justice; liberty; and security” have neither meaning nor value to you.

  31. If only all Christians would remain celibate ;-)…

  32. Do note that Art is Mark who is Bob.

  33. We understand your problems, Art-Mark-Bob.

  34. The “traditionalists” want to punish gays while protecting divorce and polygamy or blow up the denomination as they leave. Gay Methodists and their allies are loyal to the denomination even when they don’t get their way, and still want to leave room for their heterodox brethren.

    That should tell us who is truly following Christ.

  35. I am waiting for their strict definition of marriage to become consistent by adding language against divorce and polygamy to the Discipline. But somehow, I don’t think an appreciation for marriage is their real motive.

  36. Maybe it will be enforced eventually, and the traditionalists will be held to account for re-baptizing adults, supporting polygamy in Africa, failing to faithfully administer the Eucharist, and supporting un-sanctioned caucus groups that assist in lawsuits against the denomination for its property.

  37. The funniest part is that Bob / Mark / Bill / Art thinks he can get away with his shape-shifting without anyone noticing.

  38. Well, don’t just stop there, dude! What is Pootie-Baby’s reaction to the Methodist Bible-believers unexpectedly knocking out Gay Goliath and his shills?

  39. The UMC has recently contained large numbers of people who correctly understand that there is not really any “sin” problem with same-gender marriage and never was. They get it that there certainly can be a “sin” problem with random promiscuity which is one likely destination for people who are denied marriage arrangements approved by society.

    Most of these people are themselves straight, not gay, and they will find themselves less and less interested in having their church dragged away from their own natural inclinations to tolerance and compassion for other people’s differentness. If they had wanted to act like Fundamentalists (and for that matter, Islamists) on this issue, they would not have spent their most recent years and decades as Methodists in the first place. My recommendation to them is to vote with their feet and never give another dime to the hierarchy of Methodism. There is no spiritual happiness to be found in a church where 53% of members are gleeful about whacking the sensibilities of the other 47%.

  40. We True Christians can’t do that God/Jesus told us to go and be fruitful and replenish the earth.

  41. The take-away is

    1-Methodist Bishops got what they promoted —-a true picture of their collective beliefs on the matter.
    Theological mush and indecisiveness that was called “ONE”.
    A further divided church–fragmented along the lines of cultural conformity over biblical orthodoxy. Top down leadership reflected in the community. Orthopraxy revealing Orthodoxy.

    2-“Traditionalists” are mostly in Africa. The continuing saga of Leftism and progressive liberalism in the USA is where most of the USA Methodist vote resides. Good news for those who will follow the LGBTQ campaign with limitless zeal. Wait it out one more round.

    3-In spite of science and to its denial, GAY or HOMOSEXUAL continues to be defined as a new sub-species of human.
    This remains the most potent weapon against reality. If acting homosexually can be an “I can’t help myself” activity that is the result of genetic predisposition, then hope remains for the LGBTQ communities–both inside and outside Christianity.

    4-Promoting the names—GAY Homosexual, Thief, Adulterer, Gossip, Swindler, Covetous, Glutton, etc. as NOUNS belies the haunting truth that all are ADVERBS describing deliberate behaviors/activities by those who choose them. Otherwise, we must discover the genes responsible–create a pill for recovery and or organize parades for them all. Our Methodist pulpits can then ordain and marry the whole lot.

    5-Watching the world promote and celebrate lifestyles of debauchery and destruction is normal. “Such were some of you.”
    We celebrate Grace because this is what God does to and for us–we become new creatures at His command.
    He love you and me first–not when we finally cleaned up our act. “You have to catch the fish before you can clean it”.

    BUT. Watching those who profess to be a follower of this Christ who yet believe like the world and yet look for support from the community of the redeemed (though nothing new) —This is where we have impasse. (I Peter 4 is a tell all)

  42. Disdain for LGBT people is the defining characteristic for those who want to insist that Genesis is an accurate account of earth’s origins. Fewer and fewer people really, really, really believe this anymore, even though many churches insist that members must pretend that they do. It’s a default to personal dishonesty to hang around such places, always hoping that the core doctrines in people’s minds and hearts are better and kinder and more sensible than they look on paper in the Books. I’m for people having the “religious freedom” to either make their churches tell objective truth—–or—–bail out and stop supporting the perpetuation of baloney.

    As for polygamy, I think it hurts people. As for divorce, I think it always involves hurt too. I would exhort against both of those, merely from the standpoint of hoping/wishing for myself or others to not get trapped in either being hurt or hurting someone else.

  43. Almost all “conservatives” are making this their signature issue in all versions of monotheistic religion and worldwide. They are all devoted to retaining scriptural falsehoods in the origins. That’s what they think they are “conserving”. Never mind fairness, truthfulness or kindness. They think they will be “Godly” if only they find someone else to “stand against”.

  44. Can you say “slightly Biased journalism” ?

  45. I am a fully human being. I am a fully gay man. It’s not a question of “not being able to help myself.” The real question is, why does it obsess a certain class of so called Christian so very, very, very, very much?

    But I will tell you what is a matter of “not being able to help yourself.“ Homobigotry, a great example of which is your comment about a new subspecies of human being whose mantra is “I can’t help myself.”

    There is no “cure” for homosexuality, because it is not a disease, spiritual, emotional, physical, or mental. Homobigotry, on the other hand, is a disease of th3 soul that you will not give up, becuase it allows you too much satisfaction in your despite of others who must happen to be different from you in a way the scares the living bejeezus out of you, yet at the same time, allows you to feel god’s lie in your despite.

    Does that lay it out clearly enough for you? Probably not.

  46. Socialist? That must be it.

    When they take The same biblical response to divorce, remarriage after divorce, and female minister’s you might be able to make a case. But they won’t and you won’t

  47. But he says he is not! Surely that must count for something!

  48. You do .recognize” our boy Art, don’t you?

  49. Will you ever, ever be honest with your multiple identities?

  50. Don’t forget Utah Dixie, Jose Carioca, DR, Draco, and a few others.

    He is such a Pierre!

  51. A loving and reasonable father would not be describing people he knows nothing about as ravenous wolves.

  52. I think I’m going to flag you, dearie.

    I also think that I can recognize a homosexual hating homosexual when I see one. Here,s some information for you. You will NEVER, EVER kill that which is within you by demanding that we be destroyed.

    But you might destroy yourself.

  53. You’d almost think it was a parody account.

  54. Yes, they are called fundamentalist bigots. They destroy the reputation, moral authority and cultural respectability of such churches in efforts to make them into Right Wing PACs.

    People like you. Spineless petty hateful types.

  55. I guess some people prefer whacking off online in a different fashion.

    Nothing good comes from a conversation with such a lying hateful troll as yourself. But it is amusing.

  56. Because the bigot side isn’t really news. They got their way. Nothing changed for them. The news is how it impacts others.

  57. Yep, the traditionalists who follow God’s Word, not the LGBTs who will, as always, stay in the UMC to continue to pervert it from the inside. If they eventually gain control, they will gradually censure and push out the traditionalists, as we have seen them do with the Episcopalians and others.

  58. Because the villains here already have a voice with the church.

  59. You can, but it doesn’t ever make it true.

  60. The biblical Goliath never got back up again.

  61. I don’t want to block him, myself. I have never blocked anyone, though I have certainly wanted to a few times.
    He responds obsessively to almost everything I write. For me, it is a source of enjoyment to see how much he obsesses over me, which is a good indication of (I think) how dangerous I appear to be to him. I’m sure he has a file of every “controversial” comment I have made, given how quickly he has a citation for stuff going back several years.
    One identity, B-P, shows up suddenly, and already has a quote form me two months old, despite having only 77 comments when I checked. I also love it that it takes not very long for him to reveal that his latest identity is yet another attempt to appear in the majority, to have a great big voice of intelligent people that agree with him, because he is the smartest guy in the room
    such insecurity is simply adorable.

  62. How can the traditionalists be following God’s word if they allow divorce, polygamy, and women’s ordination? They make themselves hypocrites.

  63. But why be ‘in this till the end’? This was the end. Your church has made it perfectly clear that they despise you, so why stick around? Their message is one of hate and exclusion; they have nothing to offer. Leave them behind and move forward to a brighter future without their sick and bigoted dogma.

  64. Brian, one practical reason for not leaving is that the UMC owns their church property. Depending on what is negotiated, the cost of leaving could be prohibitive for many smaller congregations. Conservatives faced the same problem in parallel-universe PCUSA after they passed their version of the One Church Plan in 2011. A ton of them left, but they also faced a higher price tag than they realized in order to buy back their property from the denomination. Courts have sided with the denoms in property rights disputes.

    I would bet the clergy understand this already and that is one important factor in wanting to stay, while their congregants may end up pushing more to leave. A very difficult situation for many pastors, bishops and districts in the coming years.

  65. Hello Ben.

    GAY Homosexual, Thief, Adulterer, Gossip, Swindler, Covetous, Glutton, etc.
    Since all of these behaviors are common to mankind, we must expect to see them alive and well–and we do.

    Adultrobigotry, Kleptobigotry, gluttonbigotry–all the names we recognize. We see these as well.

    Being on this Methodist topic assumes Christians are commenting on these behaviors, regardless of their origins.
    But it is noted that non-Christians chime in as well. I will assume you are a Christ follower, Methodist or not.

    Christians understand the role of accountability.
    1-To God –to love the people of this world (outsiders-non-Christians) Only God judges those who reject His Son
    2-To Love Jesus Christ–keep His commandments and follow His teachings. Christians must judge one another.

    There is no blur here until either are ignored or denied.

    Some of the church (people within) today is often guilty of expecting non-Christians to ACT like biblical Christians just to satisfy their fancy and fantasy–or prejudice–then judging them for “behavior unbecoming” or some other nonsense.

    While at the same time Christians are refusing to hold one another within the Church (professing believers) accountable to the doctrines of our own faith and the resulting behaviors commensurate.

    There is no such thing as an “Adulterous Christian” for example–only a professing Christian hoping to justify wrong behavior and have the church stamp “Approved” on it for salve of conscience.

    The world will go on as it always has but the church must decide daily who she is and whose she is.
    The church must never judge those who refuse Christ and remain lost–they will love.
    The church must judge its own. (I Corinthians 5:9-13)

  66. Ahh, you make a good point. I was thinking solely in terms of doctrine rather than practical economics.

  67. Interesting that you call the One Church Plan totalitarian when the Traditionalist Plan seeks to give more power to a centralized government in order to impose its views on regional and local members. If that’s not totalitarian, what is?

  68. Is “gay homosexual” as opposed to the “straight homosexuals”?

    I see posts very focused on labeling God’s children as “things” other than beloved. The very first sin in the Garden was eating of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet here we are.

  69. Wrong. Predominantly the American UMC decided that homosexual behavior and social justice issues would be placed before scripture.
    You and others may do as you wish. God has given all of us free will. I do agree with you that people may put on their sneakers and walk. It’s what I did 6 years ago. You have to know where you stand or you’ll fall for anything.

  70. You perverts are devoted to sexually corrupting every kid in the world. You are devilish monsters that love being genocidal baby killers. The truth is you have the same character content as ISIS members in spite of your personality differences. It is obvious you are monstrous and tyrannical enemies. We cannot safely co-exist with you.
    I did not write this post for you. I write for my people to read.

  71. The secular conservative ego uses their wealth and social status to feel superior. The religious conservative ego uses their church. When threatened, the ego usually just doubles-down than admit it’s wrong, or worse, surrender some of its status.

  72. LGBTQIA affirming Methodists do not want to leave. They do not buy into the mis-understanding that the denomination is just some club with various franchises to be thrown away when it becomes inconvenient.

  73. P.S. it is obvious the above person hates and is devoted to destroying everything that is wholesome. It is obvious he exists to steal, kill, and destroy.

  74. Hello YEM,

    There is actually supposed to be a comma between those two.

    The complete list of adverbs may find hope and transformation. I can attest personally.

    “Some of you used to be like that. But now the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of God’s Spirit have washed you and made you holy and acceptable to God.” (I Corinthians 6:11) (9-11)

  75. “There is no such thing as an “Adulterous Christian” for example–only a professing Christian hoping to justify wrong behavior and have the church stamp “Approved” on it for salve of conscience”

    It’s the no true Christian fanatasy and fallacy. The “church” has stamped approval on a known adulterer, our dear leader. so nonsense.

    There are no organized political movements to punish and marginalize adulterers and gluttons, of which Dear Leader is yet another obvious example. So nonsense.

    And that you cannot distinguish between my adult, consenting, loving, and mutually fulfilling relationship and “Thief, Adulterer, Gossip, Swindler, Covetous, glutton” just tells me that like all Christians willing to point their fingers at others, despite Jesus’s clear admonitions not to, simply tells mew that you have no moral sense whatsoever. Sin levelling is simply another indication of this.

    No, I am not a Christian, and thank the god I don’t believe in for that. I almost became one 50 years ago, but Nothing I have seen in the last 50 years of THAT sort of Christian has ever convinced me of anything except that hypocrisy, blind judgment, studied ignorance, is what is being sold.

    “The church must never judge those who refuse Christ and remain lost–they will love” That’s why you people continually tell yourselves to salve your own consciences, to make you feel like you are being righteous, instead of merely self-righteous. You say that right after– guess when?– you compare my adult, consenting, loving, and mutually fulfilling relationship and “Thief, Adulterer, Gossip, Swindler, Covetous, glutton” .
    really, how could anyone find despite, if not hate, in that?

  76. I think I will flag this one, too. And again, honey, you will NEVER kill that which is in yourself as you lie and slander about me.

  77. I’m sure you did. I’m also equally sure you wrote it either because 1) YOU are an enemy of Christianity who ewants to slander Christians, or 2) because you are desperate to kill what is so obviously within you.

  78. ? So what. God’s Word Is True. You hate God, you hate truth, and you must hate people who love God just as you must hate people that express truth. All of this proves you are a destroyer and an enemy.

  79. Honey, I don’t even hate you. But whatever you need to think to get you through the day.
    for myself, I would suggest you get some help.

  80. I did, but thank you. not that RNS pays the slightest attention to this.

  81. Liar. There is no point in talking with you. You say good is bad. You say bad is good. You say truth are lies. You say lies are truth. You are so depraved it has literally poisoned your soul causing your mind to be demented and your behaviors dangerous.
    Literally, you and your kind have more in common with both ISIS members and rabid dogs than you have in common with wholesome people.
    Frankly, we dont we speak the same language as basic words have entirely different meaning to us. As far as I’m concerned, the only thing we have in common is geography which leads to the phrase “domestic enemy.”

  82. “The world will go on as it always has but the church must decide daily who she is and whose she is.
    The church must never judge those who refuse Christ and remain lost–they will love if they belong to Christ.
    The church must judge its own. (I Corinthians 5:9-13)”

    One of the best incentives for NOT becoming a Christian is that I will be required to make a choice/choices.
    The most significant being who is correct about all of my chosen behaviors, most of which have nothing to do with sex.

    Christians must decide loyalty and alignment just like non-Christians.
    How they obey and how they present such loyalty is often in question.

    As a professing non-Christian, you get no judgement from me Ben. But when you come face to face with the love of Christ for you as I did for myself, then who we live with and how (as seen by others) becomes trivial compared to this love and hope.

    Meanwhile, why are you here caught up in the crossfire of the churches in-house-dysfunctions?
    As bad off as we are, you won’t fix us, I’m sure you already know this.

  83. ““Let us not step back from challenging, resisting, everything — ignoring the book so that we can simply be beloved children of God and the beloved people of God,” Meredith said.” You aren’t children of God, you are children of wrath
    ““self-avowed practicing homosexuals” cannot be ordained as ministers, appointed to serve or be married in the church.” Why are you allowing them to be members of your church and you should expect these problems with allowing them to think they are Christian.
    “the Love Your Neighbor Coalition’s worship service ” Loving your neighbour is not letting them go to Hell without a fight, and this is what the church is trying to accomplish
    “There also is a generation coming up that needs to see them be the light in a dark world, ” Then help them to go to Heaven and not Hell by advocating their bondage to sin
    ““We are the church,” Warren said. ” But you are not a church of Christ if you endorse sinning.

  84. Thanks for that. It strikes me as thoughtful. Now, indulge me a little if I “preach” something here. It is my opinion that when a person receives Jesus on an individual level that both of those manifestations of ego are supposed to be conquered in that person. We are not supposed to continue “feeling superior” for any reason, and THIS is what I hoped and thought Christianity was about. It is always a disappointment to me when so many of those who hang around churches are completely clueless to this side of “religion” but rather cling TENACIOUSLY to legalism for themselves and everyone they can coerce with it. Our “signature issue” is supposed to be kindness and everyone is in heightened danger when that fails to be the case, no?

  85. That’s twice in a row you have opened a reply to me with “Wrong.”
    Do you get away with that sort of behavior everywhere in life?

  86. Hi Seven,

    If you profess to know Christ, please refrain from writing words that conflict and contradict this profession. It is a matter of family embarrassment and misrepresentation.

    If you are not a Christian, then forge ahead with the hate and judgement if you must. All good.

    Even non-Christians know better.

  87. Jesus calls them liars, brood of vipers, wolves in sheeps clothing. Jesus says he comes not to unite, but to divide. If you deny what I’m writing either you are naive or a liar.

  88. “One of the best incentives for NOT becoming a Christian is that I will be required to make a choice/choices.” I make choices all of the time. I choose not to be dishonest, greedy, selfish, dangerous, mean, nasty (well, mostly, but I’m human), thieving, prejudiced, violent, and a host of other ills.
    If and when I come face to face with the love of Christ, that will be sufficient to me to decide ON THE SPOT that I was wrong in this life. But the threats and hypocrisy in this life are not going to convince me of anything.
    My interest in these in house dysfunctions lies primarily in one area, though the dominionist tendencies of conservative religion are also a great concern: the status of gay people in the world, and how deeply that is affected by the bigotry which so often hides behind religious belief. You can read seven seven posts, bob arnzens posts, HPO’s post, floydlees posts, and then tell me AFTER that that religion isn’t a problem. Fortunately, the anti-Semites who used to post regularly on these pages were kicked off, but they also his behind religious belief.
    I have no intention of fixing you, or even trying. I might be able to reach a few people who can see what lying hypocrisy lies behind this issue, as well as the attacks on women, the attacks on Christians by Christians, and all of the rest of the hatred and despite that hide behind faith.
    but if you people– I include you because of your sin levelling– cannot and will not fix yourselves BEFORE you attack others, something YOUR lord and savior commanded, there is nothing I can do except to stand against you.
    Not your faith, not religion in general, but YOU. I have no argument with people who live their faithful lives, and do not use their faith as a weapon against others, despite the slanders of some of these various posters. But the days are long past, at least in the civilized world– Hi, shawnie– where we gay people, and our heterosexual allies, as the Methodist vote so clearly demonstratesm will just sit back and allow it.

  89. Amen. Father Richard Rohr speaks on this in his “Great Themes of Scripture” series.

  90. Glen, I did a very quick reading of your comments, but they seem right on.

  91. God I don’t believe in, I love Christian love. just like regular love, but no calories.

  92. If they allowed best/iality, it still would not make homosexuality an un-sin

  93. I think the idea is “truth in love”. It is possible to be correct in detail but wrong in attitude.

    “Be humble when you correct people who oppose you. Maybe God will lead them to turn to him and learn the truth. They have been trapped by the devil, and he makes them obey him, but God may help them escape.” (II Timothy 2:25-26)

    I believe the end in all admonition is:
    1-For the non-Christian to be unhindered in coming to Christ (not to self-correct their own behavior)
    2-For the Christian to grow and mature in Christ-likeness. (Ephesians 4)

  94. Jesus also calls them antiChrists and children of Satan. Jesus also says the truth offends the wicked. We know Satan is a liar, beguiler, and destroyer. When you turn away from Christ and assist the evil one and his slaves, it’s obvious what your intentions are.

  95. When they are devoted to sexually corrupting kids, mass murdering babies, and a host of other things, it is love to directly tell them and my people that they are dangerous monsters.
    It is not love to pretend Satan responds to kindness.
    They do not want Jesus. They are devoted to stealing, killing, and destroying. They are literally at war against Christ. You look at one part of scripture and ignore another. You ignore the blunt truth and power many with Christ, and noted in scripture spoke and lived in. I remind you, there is a time for war.
    You question if I am a Christian, and I question if you are a Christian. I know Satan misapplies scripture to deceive.
    Can you write all LGBT is sin? Can you write those that deny LGBT is sin are liars? Can you write “the LGBT are devoted to abortion? Can you write 99% of the abortions in America are motivated by greed and ambitions?” If you cannot write those words, it is obvious you defend sin, defend the corruption and murder of kids; moreover, it proves that you are not a Christian.
    So, I’m testing you. Write what I’ve asked, or I will believe you twist scripture to cause harm.

  96. They are following God’s Word in their position on LGBT ordination and marriage, which is the topic at hand.

    On women’s ordination, no.

    I have never heard of them approving polygamy – multiple wives – as some Mormons do.

    Divorce is permitted in the Bible under a narrow window.

  97. Exactly. When you and I get out of the way, then Jesus and the truth do what only they can do. Your job and mine is to love.
    Who is “them”? Who is it that you must convert? Are you addressing the context of this article? Who are these Anti-Christs?

  98. Okay, let’s get down to the core truth of the matter. Regardless of whether or not a person has a genetic predisposition to being Gay, etc., the New Testament forbids same sex relationships, and also includes the criteria of worthiness to be an ordained minister. To deny the teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, is to deny Christ Himself. You can be Gay, etc., but if you are a true disciple of Jesus Christ, who died for our sins on the Cross at Calvary, you will not act on those sexual impulses which will draw you away from Heavenly Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. As the United Methodists have decided to follow Biblical teachings on LGBTQ matters, there is no sin on the heads of the leaders, even if the congregants have a different view: a view which is not compatible with, or consistent, with Biblical teachings. I understand that everybody wants to be loved, and wants to love in return, but oral and anal sex, masturbating with vibrators, clitoral wands and dildos, is not okay with Jesus. The New Testament tells us that “no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of Heaven”. We are also counselled in the scriptures to “seek first the Kingdom of God”, and to “lay up treasures which will be found in Heaven.”

    The Old Testament makes it quite plain that although God loves His children, He hates sin. We are living in the end times prophesised in Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation. If you don’t want to be burned as stubble when the Lord cleanses the Earth with fire, you need to obey His commandments. ALL of them, no matter how difficult this may be. The Lord’s Atonement and Grace are sufficient for all, but we still need to repent of our sins. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commansments.”

  99. The New Testament tells us to give no offence. However, as an article in The Christian Post attests, every time a disciple of Jesus Christ speaks the truth, someone will be offended. The New Testament also says that he who claims to love Jesus, but hates his brother, is a liar, and liars will go to Hell. Jesus said, “By this shall people know that you are my disciples: that you love one another as I have loved you.” Your comment about Mark is not Christ-like. Remember to “pull the beam of wood out of your own eye, before looking for a speck of dust in someone else’s eye.”

  100. You might be busy, and this is not the right time for you to be writing. That would explain your silence; however, if you never respond to me, I will believe you died, or someone you love is very sick or died, or you experianced a serious illness or injury, or you are a deceiver, a wolf in sheep’s clothing that is at war against Truth, the saints, and everything that is wholesome.
    We (real Christians) know there are the obvious enemies, and the more subtle and devious wolves in sheeps’ clothing.
    Jesus says, “test the spirits.” When I asked you direct questions regarding basic truth, I was testing the spirit in you. Either the truth is in you, or the truth is not in you.
    It’s true your silence can indicate a sudden small or horrible challange in your life. Barring those hindrances, the most likely thing that would prevent you from writing the truth is the real truth is not in you.

  101. The same passage they use to bar homosexuals from marriage (Matt 19) has no narrow window for divorce, and is also held up as the proof text for monogamy.

  102. Their definition of what a sin is would not be trustworthy though.

  103. I posted earlier that I hoped that those in the lgbt community would stay rather than leave and continue to have honest dialogues. However at present with the tone of language I do see a probable split next year.

    What I’m interested in
    1) What exit plan will the UMC have for churches primarily overseas?
    2) If a church decides to leave is it at the discretion of the pastor or a congregational decision?
    3) Who will join who or create what in the U.S.? Will the WCA join the Free Methodist church or start their own? Will RMN churches and affiliates join another denomination or create their own?
    4) What does this mean for the World Methodist Council?
    5) What does this mean for AME churches that have similar language and are affiliated with the UMC?

    Pray for level heads and a more honest dialogue instead of being agenda driven. To me the “Do No Harm portion of the general rules of the UMC was not broken because of the passage of a plan but through quarreling which would have occured regardless of whatever plan passed. Furthermore, if the argument is that the church is not operating as it should because of the political agendas from both sides, then fine I secede to that point. However, I see no corruption unless one is saying that the majority of UMC laypeople, pastors, and bishops worldwide are misguided and intentionally harming the church. That I find insulting.

  104. Read C.S. Lewis’s “The Great Divorce”. It is a great and wonderful description of your dilemma.

  105. I try to make a point of reading your posts. You often have the best statements on these issues.

  106. Dear Mormons,
    do you know how many hyper Christians think you are a cult?

  107. You have been at this long enough to know that many of your insights and views are spot on as they concern Christianity and “church” behaviors.

    You also know that “sin leveling” as you call it, is not my idea. It is thoroughly biblical.
    Several times in the bible a list of behaviors is given. The lists are not meant to be exhaustive, rather exemplary.
    They are not addressed to you as an unbeliever–rather to those who name Christ as their Savior and redeemer.

    You may resent and even be repulsed by the idea that there are specifics and absolutes leveled at the Christ-disciple that have nothing to do with you, but the facts remain. You may object to the demands that Christ issues to His follows and even resent Christ Himself. If you do, this is normal.

    If the bible is correct, then according to the bible, the bible should be “foolishness” to you as long as you remain outside of Christ. I personally found this to be true.
    The Methodist church is struggling with the reality that the bible has also become “foolishness” to many of its clan.

    If this book is no longer a faithful, unalterable mooring for those in Christ, then Christianity is impotent and no more an influence. Such a statement should give hope to all who feel that Christ and his followers are bigoted, misogynistic, hateful and the like. Get rid of the book and you get more than 48% of future votes–and you “win”.

  108. Thanks again for the nice words. I think it is what scares our multiple personality’d commenter the most.

  109. 77
    So then, Who is “they”?
    I am not trying to say you are wrong or right. I don’t know your audience.
    Who is “they”.

  110. What do you care? Are the English moderator now? All right, because you can’t handle the word “wrong” being used twice, I’ll acquiesce. Next time I’ll use, incorrect. Perhaps false, mistaken, or untrue will work better for you. And since when is using the word “wrong” more than once when stating a differing opinion poor behavior? Never. Don’t be so sensitive.

  111. To the real Christians who read this thread: while it is good to lead people to Christ, it is also good to defend the kids from the perverts who sexually corrupt kids and are equally devoted to the genocide of abortion. It does great harm to deny those that do these things are devilish monsters devoted to sexually harming and killing kids.

  112. Jesus says, “I come not to unite and divide.” Jesus also says, “The darkness hates the light.”
    The simple truth is they want to destroy the true gospel, and have embraced a devilish gospel. The truth is they claim evil is good and also claim good is evil.

  113. “Multiple personality’d?” I was pretty sure there was NO personality.

  114. So many words, so little sense to read among them all.

  115. The false Christians have to have their boogeymen to hate as a substitute for the “pure love of Christ” totally absent from their religion. Since they can’t get away with hating people of color like they used to, it’s all out war on LGBTQ for the holy hypocrites.

  116. Nonsense. The holy hypocrites have their own edited versions of “God’s Word” bent to their own hateful view of the world. And the Bible is not the seamless, flawless “marvel” that you folks pretend. It’s just the Constantine approved reading list of moldy old scrolls from back in the day when the pagan Emperor of Roman invented a new state religion.

  117. The New Testament doesn’t have anything to say explicitly about homosexuality.

    It does have a lot to say about radical acceptance through allowing eunuchs and gentiles to join God’s people.

  118. I will try to answer you later. I have a lot to do today.

  119. All this just because you guys and gals can’t defend your positions and can’t stand to be contradicted.

  120. Coming from an avowed atheist and enemy religion, “biblical response” is outright hilarious.

  121. “No, I am not a Christian, and thank the god I don’t believe in for that.”

    You might make it clear what in your lifestyle conflicts with being Christian, or at least anything generally identifiable as Christian.

  122. “My interest in these in house dysfunctions lies primarily in one area, though the dominionist tendencies of conservative religion are also a great concern: the status of gay people in the world, and how deeply that is affected by the bigotry which so often hides behind religious belief.”

    They cramp your style, nothing more profound.

  123. Really? Seriously? That’s why you have so many identities? It’s all our fault? You’re such a pierre.
    Here’s a simple way out of this. Swear on the holy name of Jesus and on the Bible that there is only just you, and that the man or woman posting as Mark Connelly has never, ever posted anything on these pages as Jose Carioca, Bob Arnzen, Robert Arnzen, or any of the other identities that we all believe are emanating from the same person.
    It should be simple. you yourself informed me just a few weeks that there is nothing in the bible that forbids swearing such an oath.

  124. You’re not exactly Venus Lovetrap yourself.

  125. Secular society can have one standard and Churches a higher standard.

  126. You guys and gals can’t defend your positions and can’t stand to be contradicted.

    The rest is your usual self-serving eyewash.

  127. Accurately, disdain for sinful behavior.

    “Love me, love my sins” is not part of any religion I am aware of.

  128. It’s easier to cite your prior posts (35,939 at the moment) than lying and slandering. Your own words invariably do the entire job.

  129. “The New Testament doesn’t have anything to say explicitly about homosexuality.”

    Or genocide.

    Or patricide.

    Or prostitution.

    Or ….

    That’s because its audience were Jews who knew the moral law.

  130. It would appear based on the votes that the winning party also made it easy to leave.

  131. If they stay that is exactly what they’re saying – it’s just a club, and they can make their own rules.

  132. It’s not a matter of sensitive. It’s a matter of how long I put up with being harassed by individuals online Just as you can’t get away with the “Wrong” routine repeatedly slammed against the real people with whom you disagree in your real life, there is a limit to how many times I will accept it here. There is a crazy man here named Mark Connelly who spends his days at this site for no purpose but rudely contradicting other people. I blocked him a long time ago and would be happy to similarly push you back out of my face as well if you plan to continue behaving like him.

    You can only “debate” (yelling “wrong, incorrect, false, mistaken and untrue”) those who are willing to play the tit-for-tat game with you. I’m not one of them.

  133. How so?

    1) As you pointed out earlier in Matt. 19, Jesus talks about divorce and in speaking about the subject refers to marriage. Also references Genesis

    2) He already stated in the NT that he came to fulfill the law, not abolish it

    3) He stated that premarital sex is a sin, lust is sinful, as well as adultery. Also stated that unforgiveness and judgmental attitudes are sinful.

    4) He preached to the Jewsish community of that time. However if he is divine and the truth, would he really change his standards to accommodate people today or not? I don’t believe so.

    5) We can have a discussion on slavery as that could be the only argument of society today changing our practices regardless of what Jesus said on the matter. But it seems that Jesus already spoke on what marriage is supposed to be (and did not mention or approve of polygamy).

    6) Regardless we are called to love and show grace leaving judgement to G-D. However a genuine question I have is that if Jesus specified sin and called on people to sin no more, how are Christians who may disagree with ordination or same sex marriage supposed to handle this with love (while adhering to their beliefs)?

    7) In terms of sexuality (orientation), yes the bible doesn’t say anything about it. However, acting on those feeling yes the bible does specify how sexuality – hetero (lust, adultery, non-marriage) and homo (same sex relationships) – should go.

    8) Can also have a discussion on sexuality if you want based on the premise that sexuality from G-D is a gift and what that means for str8 & lgbt folks?

    9) G-D loves everyone and welcomes EVERYONE to the table (plus no one knows who will end up in heaven for sure – G-D tells us what to do though) but love also includes correction.

  134. Goat finds disagreeing responses distressing. You might try Spuddie instead — she absolutely lives for opportunities to call people who disagree with her liars and… other vulgarities.

  135. I don’t see where Jesus had specific commandments for baptism. However if the problem is a matter of jurisprudence within the denomination, that’s for the UMC to sort anad address.

    Is there evidence for the “traditionalists UMC members” supporting polygamy in Africa?

    Again, there might be doctrinal requirements within the denomination, and if there are violations then I agree that the judicial council or the council of bishops need to intervene.

    The last point I also do not see any basis or evidence for.

  136. Goat is NOT friendly and in fact believes the comments are a soapbox for him to utter uncontested “profundities”.

  137. just what I thought. You cannot make such a statement, because even you have a precious little bit of integrity.
    But thank you so very much for confirming what everyone here has always known. you post under multiple identities. I’m pretty sure it’s a violation of the terms of service for both Disqus and RNS.
    You seem to be a very frightened, insecure man.

  138. Oh, by the way, just in case you were worried about it, I will not block you or indeed, any of the multiple personalities I believe you post under. I will go back to ignoring the vast majority of your posts again though, under whatever names you post them.

  139. Wrong.

    Matthew 19:9: “I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, EXCEPT FOR IMMORALITY, and marries another woman, commits adultery.”

    Next time you should try actually reading the Biblical passages you refer to.

  140. I imagine Jesus acknowledged the one “window,” so to speak, for which His own legal father (“a just man”) contemplated a divorce.

  141. “Your church has made it perfectly clear that they despise you…”

    Do I have to point out that it’s impossible to have a “dialogue” with someone to whom disagreement = “despite”? If you want to “live like that Book of Discipline no longer exists,” it’s certainly appropriate to “leave them behind” and start up your own denomination. It would certainly be inappropriate to remain in a denomination whose rules and discipline you entirely reject.

  142. The UMC uses Bibles based on sound manuscript scholarship. They have not invented one of their own.

    Constantine had little to do with the composition of the Bible. That is just a silly modern myth. It is historically groundless, though oft repeated by modern atheists on the internet.

  143. I never worry about anything you do, don’t do, say, or otherwise.

    Relative to you, I’m just here to barbecue your sodden BS before some poor schlemiel gets taken in by it.

  144. Got it. Real history is a “myth” and your made up “history” is “real.”

  145. Because the subject of Homosexuality is not going away:

    The future for our Methodist version of Christianity has hope and a healthy direction, yes.
    But we need wisdom applied to knowledge.
    We need giant courage, not cultural conformity.
    We need compassion and understanding, along with “progressiveness” along with being “WOKE” to be informed by truth.

    WHO CAN OFFER THIS? Many people, to be sure, but:
    If you haven’t met this man or do not know of him and his ministry, he is a worthwhile investigation.

    Please meet Joe Dallas

  146. The entire world awaits your explanation of where rights, and thus laws, come from.

    A non-frightened secure man should be able to answer that simple question without all this sturm und drang, insuations, name-calling, and BS.

    So, why can’t the Constitution be amended to ban same sex marriage?

    You have no answer.

    You NEVER have answers.

  147. I think people read the Da Vinci Code thinking it was based on fact and started the myth about the “cutting room floor at Nicea” And now it’s been circulated so much that it comes up regularly in google searches and the ignorant buy it without a second thought.

  148. No modern Classics/Ancient History scholarship supports the idea that Constantine composed the Bible, silly.

  149. Not exactly the most difficult work in the world…

  150. Yes, we see that a lot here. They actually think Dan Brown is a historian.

  151. God definition allows divorce and polygamy?

  152. Friendly Goat’s a guise for unfriendly gloats.

  153. LGBT has always been considered a sin by Christians. Your narrative that they only have believed that recently -“Since they can’t get away with hating people of color”- is demonstrably false.

    It is also false that “hating people of color” was ever a traditional Christian doctrine.

  154. He allows divorce in the case sated above.

    Pay attention, kronzy. You can do better.

  155. No one said that Constantine “composed” the moldy old scrolls. Try reading for understanding. I asserted, true to history, that Constantine APPROVED the reading list of his hand-picked council of clerics. An approved reading list means that they took all of the old scrolls available to them and made a list of the ones that they wanted and another for the scrolls being rejected. Old scrolls that appeared to support what Constantine wanted were approved and the ones that didn’t were rejected. The old pagan didn’t do any of the heavy lifting, he just approved the list. Got it?

  156. It is like shooting fish in a barrel.

    With 35,000 plus posts he’s pretty well committed and documented supporting some of the zaniest positions known to man.

    It’s like Spuddie with a larger vocabulary.

  157. Nope. The modern understanding of LGBTQ did not exist for ancient Christians to disapprove of. That’s like claiming that we should not be on the “devil internet” because it’s not in the Bible. Thanks for sharing why moldy old scrolls can’t help us navigate new understanding of the world.

  158. “With 35,000 plus posts” With probably 25,000 plus of them saying the same thing.

  159. I do note that (almost) no one cares. Creating a distracting uproar over names is convincing evidence that you are unable to deal with anything he actually says. Get back to me when you have something substantive to say. Otherwise, put a sock in it.

  160. There is no historical evidence that Constantine interfered with the deliberations of the Council. The Bishops worked things out on their own.

    More importantly, the First Council of Nicea did not decide the question of the Biblical canon. That whole story is not supported by any ancient evidence or modern scholarship, no matter how popular it may be on the internet.

  161. No siree. The ancient Christians considered homosexual relations a sin, and excommunicated any who practiced it, as the Patristic writers and Canons witness.

  162. Again, you are asserting verbs that I have not used in order to make invalid points. Constantine brought them together, approved who got to be on the Council, and approved their end results. That is “directing,” not “interfering with.” I did not read below the fold. You were already wrong and irrelevant above the fold.

  163. No. Constantine facilitated the Council by providing transportation and housing for the Church’s Bishops, but he did not dierect thei actual deliberations and decisions. And the fact that Nicea had NOTHING to do with the formation of the Biblical canon renders you whole point moot anyway.

  164. “Get bent, troll.”

    Looking for company?

  165. The actual Bible stories refer to pagan practices that could include non-consensual sexual assault as worship of pagan Gods. There are no references to consensual same-sex relations. There is also the indirect approval of such relations when Christ healed the special servant of the Roman Centurion. Several Bible scholars have shown solid evidence that such special servants of Roman officials posted away from Rome were their gay sex surrogates. Christ would not have healed someone he considered an abomination. Thus, the Bible is as clear as mud on our modern understanding of “equal love.”

  166. I think he means the ancients did not understand orientation. Of course he’s wrong there too — even in the 1st century the ancients thought same-sex attraction was innate, although they mistakenly attributed it to astrological causes.

  167. You actually buy that centurion nonsense? LOL!

  168. What I buy is solid scholarship by people who did not get their degrees from some holy hypocrite degree mill.

  169. Oh no, not that stupid “Centurion’s gay sex surrogate” baloney again.

    Ask any Classical scholar. Roman soldiers away from home had sex with the local women from where they were stationed. They had no need for “gay sex surrogates”.

  170. LOL. If you fell for that you certainly know squat about Roman history!

  171. Will anyone (other than you & you cohorts) ever care?

  172. It would appear that they measure “fairness, truthfulness or kindness” by Scriptural standards rather than your standards.

  173. There’s no “solid scholarship” on that subject at all.

  174. You should. It’s a violation of terms of service, and it is fundamentally dishonest.

  175. Thank you Elagabllus who is Ben who is Spuddie with a better dictionary who is patrick.

  176. Troll, troll, go away and come back as Doris Day. Feel free to troll (“bless”) someone else.

  177. I will take your disapproval as the best approval yet. That should cover your “credibility.”

  178. Shawnie has shown before that she has a firm grasp of Roman History.

    Calling her a troll only displays your own abysmal ignorance of the subject.

    Disagree? Show us your “solid scholarship”. Otherwise, YOU are the troll.

  179. You’ll “pray” or me?

    To whom — and for what?

    To “get bent?” No thanks.

  180. OK, Einstein, WHY would a Roman Centurion even need a “gay sex surrogate”?

  181. Didn’t think you could defend it. How sad.

    What’s a troll but an apostate hater shouting foolishness through the keyhole of the Methodist Church door? I’m an actual Methodist, so you can feel free to go away.

  182. Point of curiosity: are you still clinging to the “Russian Collusion” fantasy?

  183. You will be destroyed by God/Jesus and sent to hell for eternity if don’t repent of your sinful lifestyle of homosexuality and or promoting the sin of its existence.

  184. Nope. I just get tired of dealing with you. Debate always turns into trading one-liner put downs, so I thought you should just go “bless” someone else with your negativity. Bye, now.

  185. Will you ever tell anyone what you think the basis for rights and laws are beyond what you like?

  186. Harrassed? I have in no way shape or form harassed you, nor have I been in your face. According to my own opinion/beliefs you are incorrect. I’ve only been commenting on here approximately one week. I’ve seen you, and those of your ilk, bully, threaten, and block (threaten to block) those you don’t agree with. If you’re so easily upset by the opinions of others online, stay off. Other than totally disagree with, I’ve done and said nothing to be bullied by you or anyone else.

  187. Dear Ben in Oakland

    (1) I don’t care. (2) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not fussed about a person being LGBTQ as long as they obey the Law of Chastity i.e., no sexual activity outside of a traditional marriage which was ordained of God in the Garden of Eden to be between a man (Adam) and a woman (Eve). (3) oral and anal sex, masturbating with vibrators, clitoral wands and dildos, are unholy and impure practices which are not to be engaged in by anybody, including heterosexual couples.

    Regarding (1) above, I could explain why we are not a cult, but you really don’t want to listen and are only deflecting from the real matter at hand, so as St. Paul said, I am not going to feed meat to someone who is not yet weaned off milk. Also, Jesus told us not to cast pearls before swine.

    This doesn’t change the fact that the activism undertaken by the LGBTQ community in the Christian Church of whatever denomination, is contrary to the Word of God as found n the Bible. If the LGBTQ community wants to remain in its apostate state, disobedient to the commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ, I don’t know why they stay in the Christian Faith. Homosexuality is not a sin in Buddhism, so go be Buddhists, and stop white-anting the Christian Church from within.

    Then again, this is something which was prophesied in the New Testament as a sign of the last days before the Lord’s Second Coming, so it’s just another victory for Satan until the Lord’s Millenial Reign. That doesn’t mean that those who desire to be Christ’s disciples can be bigoted and discriminatory towards anybody, but St. Paul makes it quite plain that those actively engaged in the Christian Faith should NOT associate with fornicators, drunkards, etc.

  188. Except that no one follows that allowance for divorce. Where divorce is allowed, women are also allowed to divorce, not just men.

  189. I am not a troll just because you don’t like what I say. We are commanded not to revile against the revilers, so I won’t make any further comment, before I say something unGodly which I will regret. I don’t suffer fools gladly, so I will allow you to wallow in your ignorance and spiritual filthiness. By the way, why are you attacking me just because you disagree with Mark Connelly. If he is not worth responding to, why are you responding to me? You are illogical.

  190. Regarding 1) I don’t call you a cult. I see all religions as equally valid.
    for the rest, I don’t have the time. Especially since you just called me a swine.
    but one little thing. It isn’t just gay people, it is our heterosexual allies, friends, colleagues, neighbors, and family members, who believe what they believe because of what their bibles tell them, not despite what their bibles tell them.
    If you want to make homosexuality the hill you die on, as so many fundamentalists do, be my guest, but I would suggest two things. 1) If you’re going to insist its about being a True Christian, a great many True Christians don’t think you as a Mormon are. You might want to reflect on that as you denounce gay people and our allies for not being True Christians. 2) There are plenty of things not found in the bible that you also ignore, like divorce for any reason except adultery, if then. I’ve known few divorced Mormons, and was told in more than one case that it wasn’t about adultery. Doctrinal purity is is not the position I would be arguing from.

  191. I’d like to believe you, but I have to either wash my hair or have some hot sweaty mansex.
    try not to think about it too much.

  192. Indeed they do. It’s called lying about what Scripture is, where it came from and what they would like to use it for.

  193. I don’t block “those I don’t agree with”. I block those who persist in sending strings of fight-picking replies directly to me when they should have been writing their own original opinions, also known as peddling their own peanuts. Blocking you, by the way, is not bullying you. It’s actually the opposite. It’s me arranging to get myself as far away from you as possible. It’s me telling you that you can send me nastygrams all day long, but that alas, they are undeliverable and won’t be seen, read or answered by your intended target.

  194. I think it’s hilarious how intimidated they all are by him.

  195. You’re a Scriptures expert?

    Please support your position with one or more citations.

  196. Spot on. They were at Nicea for one reason only and that was to settle the issue of Arianism. Constantine did not care at all which side they came down on — he merely wanted the question settled for the sake of church unity.

  197. Who doesn’t follow it? I did. I know a lot of people who have.

  198. Only allowing men to divorce, not wives divorcing unfaithful husbands?

  199. I mean, not going with divorce and remarriage except for adultery

  200. Wrong. Plenty of Christians follow it, women as well as men.

  201. God has allowed polygamy, but it is not in His plan. Divorce is allowed in certain circumstances, Partaking of those against His will, will not make homosexuality not a sin

  202. No, Dearie, I haven’t been warned. Rather you have open up your pie hole and spouted some of the nonsense that you believe.

    Can I tell you about my Lord Cheeses and his angels, Brie and Camembert, and the sinful Truffled St. Andre? No?

    Here’s a real warning for you. Get some help with your homosexual issues before they further erode the quality of your life.

  203. Wonder no longer — just scan the RNS comment boards on almost any article.

  204. And by “calories” you mean sexual fulfillment, which to you is apparently the motivating carrot without which “love” either won’t happen, or will be a pale imitation, or a pretense to conform to some abstract standard.

    What a sad and desiccated concept of “love.” It will take a dose of Christ’s “Living Waters” to give it the vitality of the real thing.

  205. The allowance is only for men to divorce their wives. Wives do not get the same power.

  206. How about “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”

    This means that you can call Genesis the “Word of God” if you wish, and claim that God, not men, wrote it——-but——in the United States of America you cannot foist your belief about than upon other people in matters of public policy or upon anyone else for ANY purpose period. Likewise, the Jews and the Muslims may not insist on their particular source material being considered either in the formation of public policy in this country. You or they can run around calling other people sinners (per Scripture) all you wish, but don’t be surprised when some of them react negatively at you for your derision of them.

    Consider this. Can you IMAGINE the response you would receive from the American corporations in the clothing business if you accused them of being Sin Promoters for offering clothes containing two kinds of material? Or the response you would receive from the corporations in the food industry if you accuse them of being Sin Promoters for mixing meat and dairy, or for serving pork? You don’t attempt stunts like that because you know they are ridiculous and would cause you to be considered a nutcase. It is just as ridiculous to knock ILGBT people, and yet, conservatives think it is their right and duty to do this every day. It is neither.

  207. The usual use of pejorative language to attempt to invalidate LGBTQ people of faith wears ever thinner; showing only how hollow your own holy hypocrisy is.

  208. A nearly one year old account
    Less than 10 posts prior to today.
    Sticking up for Sockpuppet King.

    Fake account. Get bent, troll.

    I will pray for you.

  209. Snd yes dearie you have done the same, spouted what you believe.
    Which means nothing to me.

  210. Havent seen you in a while, darlin’. How have you been?

  211. No. I mean “Christian love” that is often indistinguishable from despite or hate, and certainly not founded in compassion and inderstanding.

  212. “Several Bible scholars have shown solid evidence that…”

    Without knowing anything about it, that tells me right there that you’re speaking of a controversial and disputed academic *opinion* and not a fact to be argued from.

    As for Christ’s presumed attitude toward “someone he considered an abomination,” that whole concept is a fabricated abstraction, for two reasons:

    1) God sees the *practice* as an “abomination,” not the practitioner. In the light of Christ’s mission, he’s just another sinner – i.e., one who has followed his own appetites with dedication and persistence, against the grain of God’s morally ordered universe.

    2) Before you make the mistake of claiming to know the mind of Christ – at all, much less in individual cases – consider that Jesus took Judas as his disciple and treated him with the same love he extended to the whole group, right up to the minute Judas took his leave at the last supper.

  213. So atheist Spuddie is finally turning to Prayer? Yay!! Put me on the prayer list too.

  214. Yep, you’ve got it all arranged, it seems. The minute you see God after death, you’ll simply abandon decades of atheism and the gay lifestyle. “On The Spot”, as you put it. Or maybe you’ll just tell God that the “Christian hypocrites” forced you to choose such paths. You’ve got all those post-mortem dominoes lined up. On-The-Spot.

    But, umm, what if you find out that you don’t quite have a minute? What if it happens too fast for you? What if, upon death, you find you are somehow **already** facing God the Judge? What if He asks you, not about atheism & gayness, but about your personal choice to reject Jesus Christ and the price He paid to get you to Heaven? You ready 4 that one?

    “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” — Heb. 9:27

  215. I told you I don’t suffer fools gladly. The New Testament says to call no man fool . This is related to the scripture not to judge others unrighteously without first repenting of our own sins, so that we can be merciful as well as just.

    The New Testament contains a few scriptures about “unnatural affections” in the last days. Within the whole context of the whole Bible, this includes acting on LGBTQ desires and impulses, women being “cougars”, pedophilia, and pornography addiction.

    I don’t need the aggravation in my life of dealing with ignoramuses who cherry pick the scriptures which suit their own agenda.

  216. I am not sure of what you are trying to tell me, so I didn’t block you without giving you the opportunity to explain yourself more fully.

    I have blocked Spuddle and you are welcome to read my reply below.

  217. I totally agree with you and Rick Brant. Jesus said that those who follow Him will be persecuted, and that wolves in sheeps’ clothing will come amongst the believers to destroy us with false doctrines based on the philosophies of men, and that they would perform miracles under the influence of Satan’s power.

    May the Lord and the Holy Ghost be with you and help you remain strong in Faith and Hope until the Lord returns.

  218. The possibility of women separating from and divorcing their husbands is acknowledged by the Lord Jesus in Mark 10:12, and by the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians 7:15-17.

    The topic was further discussed by the Christians of the earliest centuries – such as Sts. Basil and John Chrysostom – and was finally codified by St. Justinian in Novel 117, found in Book 28, Title VII of the Basilica.

  219. There is no “pejorative language” at all in that three sentence post you are replying to, Mr. Line.

    Try again.

  220. I will pray for you. May you receive wisdom, knowledge and integrity that clearly is so sorely absent in your life. May you finally be able to stick to one handle instead of various sockpuppets.

  221. I am praying for YOU. Prayer does nothing for me. 😀

  222. So homophobia is a higher calling. Thanks for tip.

  223. No, I don’t have it all arranged, because I don’t believe a word of it.

    But I do believe that Jesus is a reflection of the people who believe in him. Thus, your Jesus is the vengeful one who is terribly upset that some people don’t buy the story, and can’t wait to assign them to an eternity of suffering, because he so loved the world so very much and the bad world doesn’t believe that.

    Kinda of like you.

    My Jesus, if I gave the story any credence whatsoever, would reflect me. He would say, “yeah, I know there are a huge number of terrible exemplars of my followers, like Floyd and bob and sandi and the grand inquisitors and the child molesting priests and the money grubbing televangelists. I don’t really know what do do about them because despite all of my words to them, their free will always chose to make me look just like them. But now that I have shown you my glory and what it’s all about, what do you think? do you want to go do heaven?”

    Kinda like me.

    But it doesn’t really matter, because YOUR Jesus would judge you for your divorce and your constant judging of others, your reviling and slander, your bearing false witness, and so forth, just as surely as he will judge me for being as he made me.

    So when I end up in hell, sent their by your just, moral, and loving god, I’m sure I’ll see you on the next Barbie over. “Did I not perform miracles….” and Jesus will say, “get away from me.”

  224. So there you go, Floyd. Exactly as I expected, he plans to turn around and point the finger at all the other believers of the ages and say, But this one did x, and that one did y, all those over there did abc…AND I WAS SUCH A NICE GUY — and let me explain why in 85,000 words! All I did was mock and attack Your creation design and Your natural law and Your word, and spend a good chunk of my life hanging out on religion discussion boards encouraging little ones who were trying to believe in You but were weak in faith and scriptural knowledge to fall into sins that nailed You to the cross…(Luke 17:1-2)

    And rather than put my own words in the Messiah’s mouth, I’ll simply end the screenplay there.

  225. “Without knowing anything about it, that tells me right there that you’re speaking of a controversial and disputed academic *opinion* and not a fact to be argued from.”

    It’s the “top men” thing again. Invariably it means he has no idea what his position is based on but he’s SURE the evidence is out there somewhere.

    Reminiscent of CarrotCakeMan (perhaps before your time here) and his “Modern scholars have proved…” followed by a long cut-and-paste from poor John Boswell — the “top man” that all of this nonsense comes from.

  226. “Okay, let’s get down to the core truth of the matter. Regardless of whether or not a person has a genetic predisposition to being Gay, etc., the New Testament forbids same sex relationships, and also includes the criteria of worthiness to be an ordained minister.”

    Stop right there.

    Lets look at what you said: “Regardless of whether or not a person has a genetic predisposition to being Gay, etc”

    You are saying god doesn’t like gays because they are born gay. And since gays cannot be anything but gay that means they will never have a family, never be fully accepted, be banned from anything intimate in the church including being a minister. It also means they they are damn to a life of being utterly alone. They will never have a family, never fall in love, and will die alone. ALSO, if they continue to be gay , and they do fall in love, etc, that they are only worthy of going to hell.

    All because they are born gay and your god cant stand them being born gay.

    What a disgusting religion you have.

  227. I could lecture you on higher standard not always being a good thing.

    On your Orwellian attempt to cast anyone who agrees with medical science as homophobic.

    Or on the ramification of slander.

    But frankly you’re not worthy of my time.

  228. Your March word is “sockpuppet”, Vladonald Trumputin?

  229. Correct translation: God hates sin, and so do we.

  230. Nope. He’s been around a bit. Sockpuppet.

  231. God hates sin.

    It doesn’t go higher than that.

  232. It is a sure tip-off that someone is gullible and sources their “exegesis” from the far fringes.

  233. Amusing … a sockpuppet accusing others of being sockpuppets.

  234. What seems to be lacking is hate of the person himself.

    Hating the sin is A-OK.

    Being blunt is also no problem – the Savior and the Apostles were all blunt when called for.

    Ben in Oakland’s posts are appropriate targets for the kind of bluntness Seven Seven used.

  235. Your own secular “bigotry … so often hides behind [LGBT/Atheism-driven, anti]religious belief.”

  236. Does GOD in the book of Leviticus ( 18:22 & 20:13 )condemn the sexual acts of homosexuality?

  237. So, you hate gays. Thanks for finally admitting it .

  238. Just a fyi:

    All of the following say that homosexuality is perfectly normal:

    American Medical Association
    American Psychiatric Association
    American Psychological Association
    American Counseling Association
    National Association of Social Workers
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
    Child Welfare League of America
    American Association of School Administrators
    American Federation of Teachers
    National Association of School Psychologists
    American Academy of Physician Assistants
    National Education Association
    Royal College of Physicians
    Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality (SSSS)
    American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists (AASECT)
    World Health Organization
    Chinese Society of Psychiatry
    American Psychoanalytic Association
    British Association for Counseling and Psychotherapy
    UK Council for Psychotherapy
    Australian Medical Association
    Australian Psychological Society

  239. Are sins gays?

    Explain that one for us.

  240. When you become a deity you can call the shots.

  241. Check what they have to say about anal.

  242. Only in your imagination. You need to feel persecuted to feel superior. That much is obvious from your good buddy MultiplePersonalitirs.

    As I have said many times, if fundamentalist and hyper conservative Christians would stop trying to tell other people how to live their lives, and stop using the government to do it, and stop demanding exceptions to the laws that govern everyone else, you would be surprised at just how little attention anyone would pay to you. And how do I know this? Because I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with liberal Christians, or even with conservative Christians, who don’t use their religion as a club.

    But then you couldn’t pretend you are hated for your religious beliefs, which would mean you are not Jesus’s BFFF, which means you are not particularly special. And we can’t have that.

  243. Not all of them do.

    But your “authorities” are strange indeed.

    For example, what possible expertise could the American Federation of Teachers – a labor union – offer as to the “normality” of same sex carnal knowledge?

    I mean, they seem to have trouble just teaching people their native language, English.

  244. Then don’t join it.

    It will be a win-win.

  245. You said,

    “ALL of them, no matter how difficult this may be.”

    You never wear mixed fiber clothing?

    Do you stone to death disobedient sons?

    Do you stone to death a woman who wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night?

    Do you force another woman to marry her rapist?

    Do you stone to death anyone who works on the Sabbath?

    After all, you *did* say “ALL of them, no matter how difficult this may be.”

  246. No, that’s what the so-called
    (false) traditionalists have done.

  247. Being Gay is not a choice. Neither is being Straight. Please demonstrate by “choosing” to be gay… for only a month… come on, show us.

  248. What would you do if your own child comes out as lgbtqi?

  249. So now you are BILL paca. Did BOB die unexpectedly? Is he with Jose and the other Bob and Utah ad David?

    Are you going to block me now?

  250. When you think that you are a deity, or that the deity is your BFFF, then you can also call the shots.

    Am I blocked yet?

  251. “I mean ‘Christian love’ that is often indistinguishable from despite or hate…”

    Nice deflection (attempt). I realize that’s what you think about Christians in general, but your comment (“…just like regular love, but no calories.”) doesn’t express that attitude – it expresses as I explained it: your “Christian” version of love is just a pale, depleted version of the real thing.

    More to the point, the larger, flip-side implications of your remark are also clear: from a merely human viewpoint, the substance and motivating drive of (merely) human love is personal, sensual, and sexual satisfaction. Without it, what’s the point? Few would bother, except for self-deceived believers who destructively blunder toward some imaginary standard.

    And that pretty much sums up your view of the matter, on both sides of the ideological divide.

  252. Yes, He does. The “seed” of the man is meant to impregnate the woman as God commanded Adam and Eve to “multiply and replenish the Earth”. God was angry with Onan for spilling his “seed” on the ground. Ejaculating in another man’s (or woman’s for that matter) rectum or mouth is abhorrent to God. The punishment for homosexuality under the Law of Moses was being stoned to death. Just because Jesus gave us the New Covenant doesn’t mean that the nature of what is sinful changed, only the severity of the punishment for sin changed. Because of His Atonement and Grace, we are able to repent without fear of being put to physical death. However, failure to repent will result in spiritual death in Hell, and our resurrection will be delayed until we have suffered enough for our own sins.

  253. I would first find out to whom or what she is praying.

  254. There are also no cures for pederasty, kleptomania, or necrophilia.

    Tough break.

  255. You are simply the funniest.

    I seem to recall his blocking you after one or two of your surly snide shots.

    Put the doobie down for awhile and read in your inbox.

    I, of course, will never block you. You’re the best target there is.

  256. One would think you’re used to your posts not counting for anything.

  257. And stop being gay or you’ll be tortured forever.

  258. Indeed.

    It is acting on it that is the sin.

  259. Is he answering you?

    Again, put the doobie down.

  260. Man, you sure put him in his place.

  261. Let’s see, one “dearie” and one “honey” … you’re not hitting on him, are you?

  262. Apparently you need to feel persecuted to feel superior.

  263. Not sure why you’re interested in what my wife and I do in the privacy of our own bedroom but whatever. Takes all kinds to make a world I guess

  264. Been a long haul. Hospice with my dad. Died a week before his 90th birthday. Was hard to watch him fail, and I just didn’t have anything left for idiots, you know?

  265. Your child has just come out to you as lgbtiq. What do you do?

  266. It’s their version of the “good news” I suppose 🙄

  267. You honestly can’t understand basic English, can you?

  268. I’ll take that as you really don’t have a point.

  269. Sure. You like to talk about “kinky stuff.” Whatever floats your boat

  270. I think Mark has had a few too many

  271. Meanhile, turning your personal attitudes into a universal moral standard that condemns your ideological opponents is your higher calling. I gather you’ve been at it for a while, as your technique is well practiced and reflexively applied.

  272. Not to mention his technique is not very good if his opponents are armed and ready.

    Apparently he’s used to making strafing runs and flying away.

  273. “Personal, sensual, and sexual satisfaction” is not much of a moral code, but at the end of the day it is all he has

  274. Thanks for the backstory context. It’s not surprising, I guess, that it’s been hashed and rehashed already. Progs are slow to learn from the exposure of their own bankrupt arguments. Still, it doesn’t take much more than average intelligence to recognize RTL’s bogus reasoning on sight.

  275. It’s all any consistently “humanistic” soul has to resort to. And it’s the living embodiment of Sin in the sense of the Hebrew word “chata,” as “going wide of the mark.”

  276. What makes absolute nonsense about you is here you are an LGBT Atheist hot & bothered by the church fate of LGBT Theists. You have nothing in common with them: at the end of the day they’re still religious believers and you ain’t in whatever shape and form, sexually or otherwise. All this makes absolute sense, however, only if you are what I’ve called you out on. Face it & self-acknowledge, YOU ARE A SECULAR BIGOT. (Just as my people of faith can be religious bigots against LGBTs outside the church arena, where they don’t belong.)

  277. Of the 613 Laws of Moses, under the New Covenant we are only required to keep the Ten Commandments. The rest of the commandments are found in the Books of the New Testament. In the Old Testament the Israelites were unable to obey all of the 613 Commandments, so that by the time of Jesus Christ’s ministry the Pharisees were the interpreters of the Law of Moses. I don’t appreciate the sarcastic tone of your answer. I study the Bible every day. I am always learning something new. Joyce Meyer has been preaching the gospel for 42 or so years, and said that she is still learning new things when she studies the Bible. Don’t be a smart-arse: it is unbecoming of a disciple of Jesus Christ.

  278. I’m sorry to hear it. I know it can be tough. But you know? 90 years is a good long life to live, and you were there with him to the end. That’s a very good thing.

    And not to worry! There is always going to be a plentiful supply of idiots.

  279. Colossians 2:8English Standard Version (ESV)

    8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

  280. Not a deflection, but just the fact. And if you’re going to tell me what I believe about Christianity, and Christians in general, then there’s really no point in continuing this conversation. I’ve stated my opinion is many times. Perhaps you should read them

  281. I don’t have to face anything of the sort. You’re simply wrong. Here is the whole matter of it, and I really don’t give too much of a small goddamn if you don’t believe it. I thought at one point that you were a person that actually had some values, even though we disagree about religion, about Christianity, and related matters. You, at least, seemed interested in truth, and not using your religion as a club.

    I am sick to death of you and your coreligionists doing everything in your power to make the lives of gay people as difficult, expensive, unpleasant, unhappy and occasionally deadly as possible. I am sick of beautiful gay kids, their lives in front of them, killing themselves because of the toxicity that you people spew while you’re pretending that you love them. I find the sanctimony and hypocrisy of the lies you tell yourself, and that you tell others as well, to be beyond revolting, as you seek to do whatever you can to limit our participation in society and make our lives miserable as is in your miserable power. The only thing that you accomplish with these lies is to prove that the values of truth, justice, compassion, knowledge, and rational inquiry are simply things that you don’t care about, or have had at best only a passing acquaintance with..

    Given that I actually care about families, I’m tired of hearing the stories of gay people who marry straight people in the hopes that they will finally go straight, when they both know that it’s not going to happen; I met far too many of these Fauxmosexuals when I was dating, before I met my husband — often married, usually with kids, and trying desperately to get in whatever they can while the wife is away or at work. Revolting as every other kind of hypocrite, lacking the integrity not only to face who they are, but to face their choices as well. I totally resent that my brother swallowed whole the toxicity you people spew, and hated himself so very much for being what you have taught them is been the worst thing in the world: a homosexual. So much so that he wrecked his life trying to escape it, and ended his life by murder or suicide or both in the Mexican desert.

    So, buddy, that is why I comment on this. As I have noted many times, but perhaps you missed it, these holier than thou Methodists have no problem with female preachers and no problem with divorce, though they might show a consternipated and wrinkled brow about the latter. They used to have no problem with slavery and owning other human beings, which is why they split nearly 200 years ago the first time. They Simply do not care about the damage they have inflicted On gay people anymore than they cared about owning black people, or they care about the damage that they are inflicting on the church. It is no more a matter of theology and god’s word than it has EVER been — though if it were, you might have a point.

    But it isn’t and you don’t. It’s all about the prejudice that hides behind god’s word and god’s holiness, as you make your god into a spitting image of your self.

  282. I don’t appreciate your sarcastic tone either.

  283. How often do you “not act” on being a Heterosexual? Listen to yourself. You are who you are.

  284. Calvinist……chuckle. It is all part of the big plan.

  285. You’re quite the LGBT-Zealot, the LGBT-Obsessing, the LGBT-Martyr Complex, the Meta-LGBT Theorist of Everything-LGBT, ain’t you. LGBT-ism has become a 24/7 Fix and a Brainwashing Ideology for you. So let me simplify matters, then, in these terms (and if you can’t understand it, then you’re Totally Lost Beyond the Grave):

    Compare you, LGBT Godless Atheist, who care so much about LGBT Godfearing Theists, not at all because of their religion, but only because of their sexuality;

    With me, Heterosexual Theist, who couldn’t care less about Heterosexual Atheists, not at all because of their sexuality, but only because of their godlessness!

    The Latter Case – mine – is Uncontroversially Norm-al! My set priorities are in order.

    The Former Case – yours – is Weirdly Ab-Norm-al! Your priorities are out of whack, if you have them at all in the first place. And so you would ridicule LGBT Theists’ religions but never their sexualities – WHAT?!?!?!
    Absolute nonsense.

  286. It’s almost as if he thinks he was “chosen” to play this role 😉

  287. Apparently, Calvanists (Presbyterians) made great soldiers as they had this ‘preordained’ view to their possible death in battle.

  288. No. That’s in the scripture of the HolySpirits Bible that you don’t believe.
    Ive always been a non-denominational Christian.

  289. When you get fired from your job, your very existence as a human demeaned, beaten up on the street because you are fundamentalist, called a threat to society, threatened with prison becuase of what makes your weenie hard, and told you were better off dead, you can tell me all about it.

    Good bye.

  290. Oh, you mean how some use an hodgepodge collection of ancient fragmented texts from highly paranoid and superstitious warring tribal peoples filled with often violent tales of tales of demons, deities and demigods? Yeah, I can see that.

  291. I’ll take reality, facts and science over a mythology based upon an hodgepodge collection of ancient fragmented texts from highly paranoid and superstitious warring tribal peoples filled with often violent tales of tales of demons, deities and demigods anyday.

  292. You’ve expressed your opinion of Christian motives, not stated a “fact.” And I’ve already read your many versions of it – but thanks for the invitation anyway. Your demand is “you can only love me by loving my sin; anything less is hatred and despite.” It only works that way within your mental bubble.

  293. Yeah – I’m sure you can “see” your own opinions very clearly.

    Now, step two: learn to distinguish those from actual “facts.”

  294. Explain this then.
    I was an atheist for 25 years, became a Christian for 8 years.
    Lived a life as an alcoholic sinner for 20+ years and came back to our Lord Christ Jesus a little over 5 years ago.
    Today and for the rest of my life I will be sola scriptura only.

  295. Your theology is Calvinist… So you’re a Calvinist.

  296. Does GOD condemn all human sexual acts except for heterosexual marrrige?
    Chapter and verse, please.

  297. Sure.

    As soon as you quit using mythology as facts.

  298. How do you expect me to “explain” someone else’s life? Can you do that? Are you not only one person?

  299. I just read what is Calvinist beliefs.
    I don’t believe that way.

  300. Your summation reminded me of a fellow who dropped by here a few years ago, a gay Episcopal former HuffPo’er named Darr (who also had more Disqus identities than Carter had little liver pills but almost never varied from his fixed slate of Magic 8 Ball responses) and a true believer in every morsel of gay apologia ever to flow from the pen of John Boswell. Ben fawned all over him trying to turn him into a cyber-ally against all the Bible-believing meanies — and the Magic 8 Ball flicked him off like a booger because Ben is an atheist!

    One of the weirdest interludes I’ve ever seen around here.

  301. I’ve never read the scripture where GOD, states that He does.
    Have you?

  302. I read about Calvinist.
    No I am ‘ NOT ‘ a calvanist.

  303. If you think some are*destined* to hell and unable to be saved, then you’re a Calvinist.

  304. I’ve read the scriptures thoroughly. Are you not aware of the Patriarchs and their marital scenarios?

  305. You sound like one when you condemn others.

  306. That’s not what I read.
    That must be your interpretation.

  307. I’ve never read the scripture that states that GOD does.
    Have you?

  308. You have a kindergarten cartoon view of what Christians believe…and how. The only “fact” pertinent to this discussion is that I take mythology for what its is, a way of explaining things that are beyond our comprehension in terms we can understand — in the words of Denis DeRougemont, “a myth is a story that describes and illustrates, in dramatized form, the deep structures of Reality.” That Reality necessarily outcrops into the “factual” world, but it also and obviously goes way beyond facts per se. The topic is evidently bigger than you’re prepared to grapple with.

  309. Yet we are all humans and few attain the higher standard.

  310. Don’t forget the Bonobos. They were created by god to enjoy boy/boy and girl/girl fun.

  311. I don’t condemn anyone.
    Telling someone that they’re sinning against our Lord is truth. Then it’s their choice to turn their lives around and live their life to serve Christ Jesus.
    Or choose to ‘ condemn ‘ themselves by ‘ not ‘ accepting and serving our Lord Christ Jesus.

  312. Dearest Ben in Oakland,

    You’re SELFISH. LGBTistically SELFISH. You’re only in this for your LGBTism, your LGBT rationalization and justification and legitimation, because you’re fully aware you ain’t getting ’em so long as God & Jesus only sanction BINARY HETEROSEXUALITY. And so you find sick pleasure in Religious Family Feuds Over Sexuality between LGBT Theists and Heterosexual Theists. For the Only Endgame you’re really after here is where and when those same God & Jesus finally bless LGBTs & LGBTism. Why? Because that means this Father-and-Son Pair will end up contradicting Themselves, and no longer being true to Themselves, and backing out on all Their Covenants with Israel and the rest of the world. In other words, God & Jesus will finally be seen for the joke that They are, and that Their Non-Existence is, and you shall have The Last Laugh. The Laughter of The LGBT Atheist. BWA-HA-HA x 100!

    Well, done. Well done, so: Yes, goodbye!


  313. Wow, Sister Shawnie5, you’ve got this! This says it all, and how messed up everything LGBTesque really is:

    “And the Magic 8 Ball … a gay Episcopal … flicked him off like a booger because [the gay man] Ben is an atheist!”

    Bang on
    Spot on
    Right on

    Thumbs up

  314. Obviously, you HAVEN’T read what I have had to say. It’s one thing to believe that I am committting some sort of sin against your god. Have at it. I disagree, I don’t think it is justified by your scripture. It is quite another to try to restrict my participation in society because of it, and to justify that by telling fact free lies and calling me a threat to society because— oh noes!!!!— my means of expressing love, sex, romance, family, and connection offends your particular version of god. Especially when you seem to have no real issue with people who reject the entirety of your religious beliefs, not just the little itty bitty ANTIGAY part.

    It’s not an opinion, it’s an observed set of facts.

  315. What will you do when your own child comes out as LGBTIQ?

  316. They are not basing their opinions on any facts. Actually its a mental illness and to engage in it leads to serious health issues and death. Just look at the CDC stats on homosexuality.

  317. Good advice.

    Spuddie, who do you Atheists pray to these days? (And please don’t say, “Ourselves.”)

  318. You rather bring it upon your own head.

    You choose to show up where people with religious beliefs are discussing the religious news presented, attack them, their beliefs, and their churches, and then cry “Pooh me! I am beset upon by those nasty believers in their particular versions of god!”

    That takes real chutzpah.

  319. None of the events in your long first sentence occur if you keep your mouth shut.

    Unlike the folks in your second sentence, no one can see what you like in the way of whoopie and pick you unless you let them in on it.

    Your skin, for example, is not a different color.

    What you’re looking for is, in fact, and endorsement of behavior – not skin color, not religious beliefs, and not having breasts (I would suppose).

  320. “I don’t have to face anything of the sort. You’re simply wrong. Here is
    the whole matter of it, and I really don’t give too much of a small
    goddamn if you don’t believe it.”

    Apparently you give a huge goddam based on the number of your posts and their ferocity against religion, believers, and so on.

  321. If we love someone we wish him well, not wish him in Hell.

  322. “Get some help with your homosexual issues before they further erode the quality of your life.”

    Are you soliciting on-line?

  323. You apparently prefer being fundamentally in error and unwilling to defend those errors.

  324. DMS, come on now…
    I’ve dealt with you on other channels for quite a long time.
    YES sir, you DO readily condemn others and on several occasions, you said the most *vile and disgusting* things to me personally.

    The only reason I see your comments is because I’m a mod on another channel and therefore cannot block anyone.

    The only reason I’m even responding to you is because (perhaps foolishly) I *hope* that you’ll begin to actually listen and consider carefully, prayerfully and in love what other people who are different, who are *also* made in God’s holy Image, are saying.

    That’s my hope… but it all depends on how you choose to interact going forward. This is your Second Chance — don’t blow it.

  325. LGBT Nones are starting to distance themselves from Atheists & Agnostics. Classic instance is Democratic Arizona Rep. Kyrsten Sinema. Another instance was shown to me earlier today by Shawnie5, when, here at RNS, before my time, “the Magic 8 Ball … a gay Episcopal … flicked him off like a booger because [the gay man] Ben is an atheist!”

  326. Not one sexually active lgb married or not will enter the kingdom of heaven ( GOD).
    That’s not condemning.
    That’s telling all that they have to repent of all sexual sins
    ( homosexual and heterosexual) and live a celibate or heterosexual marriage only Christian life.

  327. Those associations that ‘ JD ‘ mentions are just as
    “ MENTALLY ILL “ as she is and the lgbt ( thugs ) Mafia.

  328. You do realize that homophobia is now considered a form of mental illness, yes?

  329. Here ya go.

    FYI: It is estimated that one in every 1,200 – 2000 are born intersex. Gender and gender orientation was never set in stone.

    Free you mind.

  330. Actually, homophobia is now considered a mental illness. Perhaps you want to seek help for your infliction.

  331. Says the one who believes bats are birds because the bible says so.

    Btw, homophobia is now considered a mental illness. Y’all might want to seek some help. I wish you well in your continued healing.

  332. Telling the truth about the lbgt crowd does not make one homophobic. Rather you should be applauding me.

  333. Not one sexually active lgbt Christian or not will enter the kingdom of Heaven ( GOD ).
    And GOD/JESUS created no one lgbtqpnb they chose to defy GOD/JESUS with their chosen Sins against GOD/JESUS.
    The same goes for all Christian or not heterosexuals that choose to defy GOD/JESUS with their chosen Sins against GOD/JESUS.

  334. Too late — my children are already grown up…and quite certain of their “gender identites.”

  335. Sorry I missed all the drama. This place gets more convoluted than the TV Soap Operas!

  336. It’s war now, Kiumbi. All the fake talk about “unity” is gone. Everybody getting honest now.
    Look for two big battles coming up by late April:

    (1) There’s gonna be a LOT of pro-gay pressure to force the Judicial Council (the Methodist supreme court, which is **already** badly pro-gay), to stop the Methodists from enforcing their own playbook, the Book of Discipline, now that the Bible-believers have won the Big Vote. Watch for the Court to cave in and pamper the pro-gay side.

    (2) The biggest leader of the pro-gay faction, who has the largest Methodist megachurch in America, (Adam Hamilton) has decided to use BLACKMAIL instead of PRAYER on this issue. He told the KC Star recently that he intends to launch a campaign for the Pro-Gay churches to stop donating money to any Methodist “mission organizations” that don’t publicly kowtow to the Pro-Gay-Marriage and Practicing-Gay-Clergy forces. Most of the mission groups don’t have much money, and this suggested boycott could possibly kill them. BLACKMAIL!!

  337. It was a long time ago. But you can just imagine how petulant Ben was, telling Darr that he “needed to learn who his friends were.”

  338. Oh yes, Heb. 9:27 guarantees that, just like you said, we both get to see God the Judge. And at our advanced ages, WE will be doing that huge appointment SOON. Gonna be face-2-face with God — the God whom you have not only rejected but even sometimes “reviled & slandered” without ANY provocation, in this forum. There’s an anger, way too deep — a spiritual battery acid bubbling.

    You read the Bible; you said so. You freely confessed, how intensely you studied John 3:16. You even posted why you rejected it — and the reason actually had little to do with gayness, or Internet posters, myself included. Can’t do any Whataboutism on this, Ben.

    Meanwhile I’ll stop here, except to remind all posters who may be divorced & remarried, NOT to allow gay activists nor atheists (and Ben is both), to shame you into silence. That’s a Gay Goliath tactic. Me, I went voluntarily to senior pastoral leaders for both evaluation and verdict, and was found that my situation did meet one of the Jesus / Paul exemptions. But situations vary, so here’s some valuable brief Bible info, to sort things out.

  339. I’m sorry it has taken me a few days to get back to you.

    “You have been at this long enough to know that many of your insights and views are spot on as they concern Christianity and “church” behaviors.” Thank you for recognizing that. I wish a few of your fellows on these pages could see it to, but instead, they think I hate religion. I don’t.

    “You also know that “sin leveling” as you call it, is not my idea. It is thoroughly biblical.” To me sin level,isn’t is not an embrace of morality, but an abandonment of it, plus I think it is absolutely phony. It sounds great— not to me— in the abstract. But I sincerely doubt that you think the theft of a dollar is the equivalent of a murder.

    “Several times in the bible a list of behaviors is given. The lists are not meant to be exhaustive, rather exemplary.” That reminds me of a line from a children’s book I read once: everything not compulsory is forbidden. It,s also a loophole which allows the people you criticize in your first paragraph to do whatever they want and declare it’s in the Bible. Years ago, when I was in a debate with a hyper Christian woman over an anti-gay, she declared on that basis that oral sex was a sin. A wonderful lady in the front row looked up, continued with her knitting, Demanded, “show me in the Bible where it says anything about oral sex.” The lady responded, “it’s all through the Bible.” Of course, it was an out right lie, because it’s nowhere in the Bible. That’s the kind of loophole that an exemplary list promotes.

    “They are not addressed to you as an unbeliever–rather to those who name Christ as their Savior and redeemer.” Then why do I constantly have Christian s of a certain sort telling me as an unbeliever exactly what I need to do, and how many laws they are willing pas to make sure that I conform to their theology? Why are they telling other Christians, people who name Christ as their Savior and Redeemer with exactly the same sincerity, certainty. and conviction as do the moralizing busybodies, people who don’t agree with them at all, exactly the same thing? And who is any Christian to tell any other soul on the planet about the status of his relationship with God? It’s the height of spiritual arrogance, and I’m pretty sure that Jesus was not exactly for that.

    “You may resent and even be repulsed by the idea that there are specifics and absolutes leveled at the Christ-disciple that have nothing to do with you, but the facts remain.” Why would I? I have no issue in the most general sense with what they believe, but what they do with it if affects me and mine I definitely have an issue with.

    “You may object to the demands that Christ issues to His follows and even resent Christ Himself”. no, if don’t, with a couple of exceptions. I don’t sharetheir beliefs. And I could no more resent Christ than I do Julius Caesar. My issue isn’t there.

    “If you do, this is normal.” Good.

    If the bible is correct, then according to the bible, the bible should be “foolishness” to you as long as you remain outside of Christ.” If the Bible is correct is not an assumption I make. And as far as I can tell, people pick which parts of the Bible they like and which they don’t, liberal and Cconservaitve christian alike, as do JW’s, Mormons, SDA’s, Catholics, and Protestants. Women in the ministry is a perfect example. God,s word never changes, except when it does.

    “I personally found this to be true.” Good for you. As far as I can tell.

    “The Methodist church is struggling with the reality that the bible has also become “foolishness” to many of its clan.” I disagree strongly. Many Christians have come to the conclusions they have about birth control, sex education, gay people, social justice, economic justice, charity and just about everything else not despite what their bibles tell them, but BECAUSE. You included. See two paragraphs up. You all of you pick the parts you like. A number of Christian commenters here damn other Christians becuase they don’t agree.

    (side note. St. Paul says there is no true gospel but his. Mormons say they have the restored gospel, courtesy of joe smith. They have the True Book. Which if you is right, and why aren’t you passing laws against it with the same fervor that so many conservative Christians seem to think are just fine when directed at gay people? This is a perfect example).

    .If this book is no longer a faithful, unalterable mooring for those in Christ, then Christianity is impotent and no more an influence.” IT NEVER HAS BEEN. Wars were fought over whether god wanted hymns sung in Latin or French. Black people were enslaved with biblical justification, just as they were also freed with it. Gay people have been jailed and murdered because of it. Witches were burned for it for a crime we now know doesn’t exist. How many dozens, hundreds, thousands of Christian denominations are there, any way?

    “Such a statement should give hope to all who feel that Christ and his followers are bigoted, misogynistic, hateful and the like.” This is not the problem. I don’t feel that about Christ or his followers. I feel that about A CERTAIN SUBSET of the followers of Christ, who in every thought word, and deed, tell the world that they are bigoted, misogynistic, hateful, homophobic, anTI woman, anti anyone else’s religious freedom, and who are willing to tell any lie, no matter how detached from reality, if it gives them what they want, which is DOMINION. my oldest friend in the world is a very conservative Christian who finds the religious Reich repulsive. Though we are atheists, we were married by a minister. I have religious friends everywhere. I have virtually no issues at all with liberal Christians because THEY ARENT BUSY TELLING EVERYONE ELSE HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIVES AND TRYING TO USE THE LAW TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DO.

    “Get rid of the book and you get more than 48% of future votes” you mean to get rid of the prejudice that has been hiding behind religious belief, stop pretending it’s about god’s word when it clearly isn’t, start extending to us the routine courtesy and respect that you extend with no problem to all of the people who reject the entirety of your religious beliefs,not the itty bitty anti gay part. BECAUSE THAT IS HOW I KNOW ITS ABOUT BIGOTRY AND NOT GOD,S WORD.

    “–and you “win”. No, WE ALL WIN…WHEN: You start doing what Jesus commanded you– love people, help them, take care of the poor, mind your own business, work for peace— and people like me who are tax paying, law abiding, contributing, productive, and good members of the community don’t have to spend our time, energy and money fighting off people like you.

  340. And if one of your grandchildren come out as LGBTIQ?

  341. Be careful who you hate. It might be someone you love.

  342. You’ve yet to make a point that I agree with.

  343. Your degenerate fantasies are like one of those little Russian “babushka” dolls, aren’t they? You blow one away with a little Reality, only to find another, smaller one, nestled inside.

    And while we’re on the theme of fantasies — “what will you do when your own child comes out as” Christian and rejects your lifestyle and the causes that support it?

    What then?

  344. My child actually tried Christianity in which I supported. But he couldnt reconcile with the bigotry and hatred he witnessed and left.

    Oh, just an fyi: I’m straight. My child is intersex and trans.

  345. I’ve always found it curious that their deity doesn’t exist outside their dook of shadows…

  346. Again, a thoroughgoing incomprehension of Christianity — and its adherents (including what it means to be one). The Christian faith is not something that one “tries,” like a suit of clothes (“Oh, this fit is uncomfortable…I think I’ll put on something else.”) — it is a comprehensive change of identity that, once in place, begins to alter the rest of the personality. If that doesn’t happen (“by their fruits shall you know them”), the identity wasn’t adopted, it was merely brushed up against.

  347. No deflection. My kid tried Christianity for over 2 years and ultimately it due to the hatred he witnessed. If my kid would choose to return to Christianity I would naturally be concerned that it would inflict self-hatred. Regardless I would support my kid’s choice.

    As for deflection; you never answeref: what you would do if one of your grandchildren (or any close kin) would come out as LGBTIQ.

  348. The Deity doesn’t “exist” for you anywhere, so it’s unsurprising that you don’t find Him anywhere outside of the Bible – but telling that you do find Him there. That’s one of the reasons the Bible exists – to bring people news they won’t find in other places or on their own.

  349. So it basically only it’exists in ancient mythology.

    Got it. Thanx.

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  351. Translation: don’t allow me to point out your hypocrisy and sins, all of you scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites. Only hyper conservative Christians get to comment about those sorts of things.

  352. “Then why do I constantly have Christians of a certain sort telling me as an unbeliever exactly what I need to do, and how many laws they are willing pass to make sure that I conform to their theology, and how many lies they are willing to tell to support it?”

    The most significant cause for Christians talking to you at all is that you show up in a conversation, or commenting on an item of religious news, with guns blazing in denigration of religion, of believers in religion, and of their lawful aspirations for the society in which they live.

    The items on your wish list that you have not been granted is the power to make a religious believer do your bidding in facilitation of your personal beliefs, and that is not from a lack of trying by states like Colorado; the ability to somehow reach into their denominations, mosques and synagogues and compel them to change their beliefs to suit you.

    As to “… how many lies they are willing to tell to support it?”, the unvarnished malarkey in support of the LGBT wish list has no equal.

    You apparently like laws which conform to “their theology” when they protect you from stealing and murder.

    What you appear to be engaged in is posing.

  353. Do Mark and Bob know you’re stalking me, too? Aren’t you afraid they’re going to get jealous?
    Didn’t read your comedy, err, comment. I just needed to see your name, and then, BINGO!

  354. Although the post was directed TO you, I did not expect it to be read BY you.

    You’re long past hearing anything incompatible with LGBT uber alles.

  355. Ben,
    Honored that you took that much time to be thorough in your opinions and feelings (and facts)

    When it comes to the law–correct –there are gradients of sin along with said punishments. But
    New Testament Grace remarks : “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.” James 2:10

    This is not a societal construct but a spiritual principal about the universal sinfulness of mankind. Guilt is guilt to God but society must grade and distinguish.

    I understand your hope to teach and inform the Christian /Religious communities about matters that concern you. And again, I agree with much of what you say–and I appreciate the candor melded with kindness. (something missing with the ardent, if not militant, hope-to-be-representative of Christ and Christianity)

    I may have as many people who want to argue, hate and condemn me. For example, I do not believe that this is, was or ever shall be a “Christian” nation.

    Fundamentalists and Leftists are both insecure extremists who MUST have everyone believe like them or else. My experience is that there is no conversation to be had with them.

    I have many in these camps who insist that I am “Phobic” when I simply disagree with either their opinion or their belief.

    Then why are so many interested in befriending this Jesus character or calling Him a “good” or “loving” man?

    Jesus was indeed a man who was “BUSY TELLING EVERYONE ELSE HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIVES AND TRYING TO USE THE LAW TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DO”. He was quick to condemn and quickly opinionated. His prognostication for any and all who rejected Him was and is not good.

    I believe that you should indeed have a problem with this Jesus figure (not just the misguided followers) and what He has done to disturb this world–so many people. Jesus was and is a ONE WAY-MY WAY guy. Further, He claims exclusivity concerning who goes to heaven. He tells each person who would follow Him to “deny themselves, take up their own cross and to follow Him”.

    By all standards of today, the Jesus of the bible was bigoted, mean spirited, exclusionary, anti-religious and unloving.

    You seem to dismiss this Jesus as the source and reason for so much of your legitimate qualms with many who claim to follow him. You paint Him ups as a one dimensional lover-boy whose brand of love somehow justifies all else we know about him that is not good.

  356. You’re welcome. I’m glad you can see it.
    I want to emphasize something. I’m not your enemy, nor the enemy of your faith, nor the enemy of Christians in general, or religion is general.
    I want the same freedom, the same rights, the same participation in society as anyone else– as a gay man, as an atheist, as a cultural jew, as I am made. Nothing more and nothing less.
    I’ve said this many times.

  357. We know our ‘ sins ‘ before GOD/JESUS.
    We Christians who live for Christ Jesus in our lives will never need an atheist to point out anything for us true Christians.

  358. So you all keep telling me, just as you keep insisting that you are True Christians (TM). Other True Christians (TM) disagree.

  359. Freedom

    You are in the right country–but wrong blog as far as I can tell.

    First, Jesus and Christianity have their own slant on freedom and it is not the same as for non-Christians. Easy to get them mixed or as we discussed,
    —Christians too often expect non-Christians to live by their book, the bible
    (and or some odd version they make up)
    –“For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” (Galatians 5:1) Christians inherit numerous restrictions upon their perceived freedom.
    Christians are actually not their own. We were bought/purchased.

    “Don’t be immoral in matters of sex. That is a sin against your own body in a way that no other sin is. You surely know that your body is a temple where the Holy Spirit lives. The Spirit is in you and is a gift from God. You are no longer your own. God paid a great price for you. So use your body to honor God.” (I Cor. 6:19-20)

    –Non-Christians often want Christians to debunk and deny the scriptures just as they often do. (Many Christians I dare say only know of the bible what someone told them.)

    In our wonderful country, my rights include having a voice.
    I can agree and or disagree with the politics of the day. Then I have the right to vote.
    I can vote my opinion and I do. When I vote, I often find myself on the other side of a new fence with my neighbor. We still talk, but with an awareness that we have a divide. We must decide if we will be civil, respecting the rights of each other that demonstrate our differences. This is true of me with SSM and Abortion.

    Even blogs like this are such a refreshing idea.

    This Methodist Is blog is about how Christians differ concerning matters of sexual expression as instructed by the scriptures. I detest how Christians of all varieties place a legalistic shame and demand upon professing non-Christians and I am sorry for how many professing to know Him have treated you and others who have chosen to disagree with the bible and those who claim Christ. This is why I asked you if you were a Christian or not.

    I do not attend the Lions Club meetings because I am not a Lion. I would resent them if they tried to force me to act and live by their codes (as morally upright and noble as they may be) Non-Christians surely resent Christians attempting to force their beliefs/bible on them as if doing so will create anything more than war. (See the Blue Laws)

    May Freedom, Rights and Participation continue to be ours in this excellent pluralistic nation.
    May your right to differ from me, even mock and bully me if you choose, (not that you would) always be a right.

    I am curious if you know this man? Joe Dallas

  360. Someone else correctly called it “Backup Philosophy”.

    You start with where you want to arrive, and backup into a philosophy to supposedly get there.

    Petulant Ben is a classic example.

  361. Your deflection was in answering a question I didn’t ask, instead of the one I did. To address your fanciful hypothetical, if someone I deeply cared about had been affected by the transgender derangement, before anything else, I’d undertake the daunting task of trying to get inside their head to determine what went wrong, and how. What I’d do after that depends on what I found there.

    So, now the question you deflected reappears: what would be your reaction if your child became (fill in the blank) and rejected your unbelieving lifestyle and the causes that support it? To get as far away as possible from any particulars, the question is simply how would you react if someone close abruptly rejected everything you believe in?

  362. We true Christians don’t accept sin just as God/Jesus doesn’t accept a persons sins.
    Do your true Christians accept any sin.
    We True Christians condemn the same sins that God/Jesus condemn.
    Do your true Christian condemn the same sins that God/Jesus condemn?

  363. I answered but I do it again.

    Like you I’d first try and get into thier head and understand what went wrong and how. Then I’d still respect their choice.

  364. A usual, what you “get” is your own feelings about the matter. No one doubts you have those well explored.

    The reality (also as usual) is bigger than your stereotypes. There are plenty of modern, contemporary and scientific sources testifying to the news that God exists. But the Bible is the uniquely authoritative – and intimately relevant – one.

    Since it is authoritative, it only needs to be set forth once. And since the Reality/Truth it sets forth is unchanging, it doesn’t need to be continually updated – i.e., it only need to be set forth once.

    But of course, that message – in whole and in part – goes forth from there though many channels, with some of them always in “modern” form in any age (the living, breathing testimony of the day will never be extinguished).

    The moral order that the (entire) Bible describes doesn’t change, but historical circumstances do, and of course people will accordingly change the manner which that order is applied.

    Ancient because it’s timeless, and only needs to be established once. Modern because it’s timeless, and is therefore applicable to anything that happens in “time,” including our time.

  365. Queers are unholy abominations according to the word of God. And I am a methodist minster, myself. We welcome them at my church so they might see the light, and fight the demon within them that urges them to carnal sin.

  366. God made me gay.

    You keep on trying to preach that message, but the Bible keeps on preachin’ back at you. So I am forced to cross out your message there.

  367. Hard to blame them, after what gay Priests have done to the Catholic Church.

  368. That’s a harsh way to characterize your fellow TribLibs. True, but harsh.

  369. Well, you could always ask to have the same Christian leaders who biblically evaluated MY marital situation, do the same biblical evaluation of YOUR marital situation too. You’d love it, I’m sure!

  370. Well, if you’re taking your scripts from my insights now, so much the better. But it’s time to recognize this whole line of dialogue as a pointless bandying of abstract fantasies, devoid of any connection to the real world. Absent a real “conversion,” your kid is not going to repudiate your worldview, and mine aren’t going apostate. Meanwhile, my statements on “mythology,” and the ancient/modern timelessness of scripture stand.

  371. I don’t need their approval, nor would I seek it. I find it interesting that despite the so very clear words in the Bible on divorce, yours was questionable enough to you to have to ask. I also wonder how many of those men were also divorced.

  372. “A usual, what you “get” is your own gut – your own feelings about the matter.”

    As do you.

  373. I’m sorry but I’m going to take facts and reality over fantasies any day. And that includes the fantasy of Christianity

  374. Do you make sure that the lgbt in your congregation knows that from your sermons?

  375. Yes, it certainly includes YOUR fantasy of Christianity — which I’ll reject too, by the way.

  376. You are of the world. Christians are not to conform to the world.
    1 John 2:15-17.

  377. Don’t hate anyone. Sadly those of the lgbtip crowd hate the truth.

  378. Just to give us all an idea of how you speak from knowledge, not cunning deceit, explain for us the exception(s) to the general command against divorce, including their origin(s).

  379. There are two problems with his message:

    1 – God is never the source of sin or temptation. Our defects, including aging and death, are a result of living in a world damaged by sin itself and prowled by the Master of deceit;

    2 – There are a host of inclinations – I usually cite kleptomania – which acting upon are unacceptable morally. When Ben is asked if he has objections to the dropping of legal and moral prohibitions on acting on those inclinations, silence. This indicates he is making a special pleading fallacy – citing something as an exception to a generally accepted rule without justifying the exception.

  380. The truth is that being gay is perfectly normal. They’re just tired of y’all trying to force your religious paranoia on them.

  381. You’re halfway there. Now wake up and abandon it altogether and join the real world .

  382. Someplace else where you continually fail, but tell yourselves you’re still better than other people. Funny how it works for you, innit?

  383. May Lord Zardlar, the one true god we all worship, have mercy on your carapace

  384. That’s the lie of the lgbtip crowd. It’s not normal because homosexual forces people to use their sex organs in unnatural ways the leads to sickness and death. Just look at the CDC reports.

  385. That is one of the several misconceptions of the bible and Christianity. Neither are based in reality. Hell, the bible says bats are birds and there literally are people that serious believe that.

    I am sorry that you cannot accept real facts, science and reality. It just makes you look like a fool and an oppressor when you try to push your paranoid superstitious mythologies upon others who didn’t ask for it.

    Once you wake up and join the real world then perhaps you’ll see the harm that you are actually causing.

  386. Yes He does.
    Is that what itching ears tell you?
    2 Timothy 4:3.

  387. You haven’t got even a clue to what’s really going on in this world.
    I truly do pity you.
    Seek Christian counseling soon, it’s your only hope.

  388. No GOD doesn’t.
    Please show the scripture where GOD states ( approves ) that man will take multiple wives.

  389. When it means life or death you better well damn know it’s relevant.

  390. Please show the scripture where GOD tells Abraham and David to not have multiple wives, concubines and slave girls.

  391. Don’t spout the rantings of your false profit at me, D.M.S. The one true god tells us, as you should well know, in 17 Hedrix 9:58 ” Lo, and Lord Zardlar smote the false prophets with his mighty rod of Alisha. And they were put asunder with a rain of fire, glitter and denim skirts.” Your blasphemy has been noted by the one true god, Lord Zardlar. May Lord Zardlar, the one true god we all obviously worship have mercy on your carapace while dictating the actions of all of our lives. Hail Zardlar!

  392. Stop trying to silence disagreement, OttoExcrement. You failed, you wimp.

  393. Did GOD/JESUS give captive virgin girls to David?

  394. That is ‘ NOT ‘ GOD/JESUS/HolySpirit name.

    What drugs have you been taking for those kinds of hallucinations.

  395. Did GOD/JESUS ever tell him to not keep captive virgin girls? Or multiple concubines? or multiple wives?

  396. “Stop trying to silence disagreement…”

    That’s your schtick. So cut it out already.

  397. You should look up and read what Toby Johnson (Gay Spirituality/Queering Religion) has to say on the topic of being LGBTQ and individually spiritual.

  398. I went all the way there — and came back again — before I became a Christian to begin with.

  399. The holy hypocrites are why 40% of all homeless children in America are LGBTQ.

  400. Yes and No.
    What was David to do with these captive virgin women?

  401. There isn’t one that I know of.

    But what is David to do with these virgin captive women given to him from our Holy God/Jesus?

  402. Anti-gay bullying is such a big problem because kids from holy hypocrite homes get taught that violence against LGBTQ is justified in the eyes of God. Just coming out to a bigot is grounds to be physically harmed according to what they are taught in church.

  403. So…you agree that what we have here are dueling “opinions,” rather than a dispute that can be settled by an appeal to objectively verifiable “facts?”

  404. You have been presented with facts. You refuse to accept them favor of your fantasies. There really isn’t much to discuss till you wake up.

  405. HUNDREDS of wives, concubines and slave girls.
    Show us the exact verses where GOD tells David *not* to engage in polygamy.

  406. Yes, I know that you will NEVER find a verse where GOD says that its wrong — yet you pretend to think that there is one, so *cough it up*, Big Guy!

  407. And you have been presented with a whole series of critiques, arguments and discussion points that you have repeatedly and pointedly ignored in favor of relapsing into your “this is why I disdain Christianity” mode.

    Seeking grounds of commonality, I do agree with you that “there really isn’t much to discuss” until you show some willingness to come to grips with what I say.

    See you next time.

  408. You presented me with mythologies and superstitious fantasies. You ignore facts, science and reality. The problem is you. There is nothing more to say until you realize that and grow up.

    Until then I highly recommend you stay far away from lgbtiq folks; especially youth; less you cause more harm than good.

  409. Not a verse where GOD tells Abraham “no! bad boy! no multiple wives, concubines and slave girls!!”

    Still waiting…

  410. Our Holy,Holy, Holy GOD has just presented David with 100’s of virgin captive girls. David loves GOD and tries to please GOD.
    What will David do?
    If can’t figure this out you’re a lot dumber than I thought you could possibly be.

  411. And since you can only resort to lame as hominem attacks rather than QUOTE A VERSE where GOD TELLS DAVID to NOT have multiple wives, you are continuing to DODGE… because you can’t quote any scripture where GOD is recorded saying to ANY if the Patriarchs to NOT take all of their multiple wives, concubines and slave girls!

  412. Why can’t you answer my question about the captive slave girls that GOD/JESUS presented to David?

  413. Because you *still* haven’t answered my question to you!

  414. Do you believe that David had relations with all of these virgin captive women?

  415. Do you actually believe that God/Jesus gave these virgin captive women to David to have sexual relations with them?

  416. Did God the Son, state anything about marriage?

  417. May the one true god Lord Zardlar’s blessings rain down on your carapace, D.M.S. All can be forgiven through him, as you well know.

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