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Conservatives defend Roy Moore — invoking Joseph, Mary and the Ten Commandments

In this Sept. 25, 2017, file photo, U.S. Senate candidate and former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore speaks at a rally in Fairhope, Ala. According to a Washington Post story Nov. 9, an Alabama woman said Moore made inappropriate advances and had sexual contact with her when she was 14. (AP Photo/Brynn Anderson, File)

(RNS) — Conservative Christian supporters of Roy Moore are defending the U.S. Senate candidate against allegations of molesting a teenager decades ago — and one of them used the biblical story of Mary and Joseph to rationalize an adult being sexually attracted to a minor.

These supporters don’t expect voters will abandon Moore — a former Alabama Supreme Court chief justice and darling of a segment of the American religious right, in the Alabama race for a seat in the U.S. Senate — for the same reason they didn’t turn away from Donald Trump when several women came forward during last year’s presidential campaign with allegations he had sexually assaulted them.


RELATED: 5 faith facts about Roy Moore: Evangelical in excelsis


“It comes down to a question who is more credible in the eyes of the voters — the candidate or the accuser,” said Jerry Falwell Jr., the president of evangelical Liberty University who has endorsed Trump and Moore, both Republicans.

“The same thing happened to President Trump a few weeks before his election last year except it was several women making allegations,” Falwell told RNS in an email. “He denied that any of them were true and the American people believed him and elected him the 45th president of the United States.”

In a follow-up email, Falwell noted Moore’s denial of the allegations, saying: “And I believe the judge is telling the truth.”

According to The Washington Post, Moore allegedly molested a 14-year-old girl when he was a 32-year-old assistant district attorney in 1979. The report said he offered to watch her while her mother was in a child custody hearing, then brought the girl to his home on two occasions, kissing, groping and partially undressing her.

He also reportedly pursued relationships with several other teenage girls as a much-older adult.

Creative Commons

Ten Commandments monument placed in the Alabama judicial building in 2001 by Roy Moore

The former state supreme court justice believes the Founding Fathers intended the United States to be a Christian nation. He was kicked off the court in 2003 after he disobeyed a federal judge’s order to take down a 5,280-pound granite statue of the Ten Commandments he had installed in the lobby of the state judicial building. In 2016, after being elected again, he was suspended for telling probate judges not to issue same-sex marriage licenses.

Moore denied the sexual assault allegations in an interview with Breitbart, the website run by former Trump chief strategist Steve Bannon.

And in a series of tweets, Moore characterized the allegations as part of a “spiritual battle with those who want to silence our message.”

“The forces of evil will lie, cheat, steal — even inflict physical harm — if they believe it will silence and shut up Christian conservatives like you and me,” Moore wrote. “I believe you and I have a duty to stand up and fight back against the forces of evil waging an all-out war on our conservative values!”

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky and spokespersons for President Trump and Vice President Pence all have said, if the allegations are true, Moore would be disqualified from serving in office and should step aside in the race. Sen. John McCain of Arizona and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, both former Republican presidential nominees, also have called on Moore to step aside.

But some prominent conservative Christians endorsing Moore did not waver.

American Family Association President Tim Wildmon, who has endorsed Moore, told RNS in an email the report “does not change our support for Roy Moore.”

“I don’t think this kind of story will change support for him among Christians since he has categorically denied it. Most will see it as dirty politics,” Wildmon said.

Liberty Counsel Chairman Mathew Staver also continued to back Moore, saying, “Having personally known Roy Moore and his wife of 32 years, Kayla, I know him as a man of integrity who respects women.”

Conservative radio host Sean Hannity invoked the Ten Commandments to suggest the women who spoke to the Post could be lying.

“We do have 10 commandments. One of the commandments is, ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness.’ We know human beings break, with regularity, the other nine commandments. Did they break this one? I mean, it’s something to think about,” Hannity said on his show.

And Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler used the biblical account of Jesus’ birth in Moore’s defense.

“(T)ake Joseph and Mary,” Zeigler told the Washington Examiner. “Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

While the Bible does not give the ages of Mary and Joseph, most Christians assume she would have been a teenager and Joseph an adult at the time of their betrothal and Jesus’ birth. The Bible does state that Mary was a virgin, Jesus was conceived when the power of God “overshadowed” her and Joseph did not consummate their marriage until after Jesus’ birth, though beliefs about and interpretations of Mary’s virginity vary.

Other Christians were quick to reject Zeigler’s exegesis.

Ed Stetzer, the executive director of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College, made clear in a blog post on Christianity Today’s website: “THIS IS NOT WHAT EVANGELICALS BELIEVE.”

“Bringing Joseph and Mary into a modern-day molestation accusation, where a 32-year-old prosecutor is accused of molesting a 14-year-old girl, is simultaneously ridiculous and blasphemous. … Even those who followed ancient marriage customs, which we would not follow today, knew the difference between molesting and marriage,” Stetzer wrote.

 

 

The Rev. Amy Butler of The Riverside Church in New York City said it was “completely ludicrous to equate the sex assault of a minor with an ancient culture,” and the Rev. William Barber of Greenleaf Christian Church in Goldsboro, N.C., tweeted it was a “bizarre read” of Scripture.

“For the record: the Bible teaches that Joseph married Mary & was faithful to her thru great trials. He didn’t sexually assault her as a minor; he shielded her from shame & violence when ppl couldn’t understand a virgin birth,” Barber wrote.

(National Reporter Adelle M. Banks contributed to this report.)

About the author

Emily McFarlan Miller

Emily McFarlan Miller is a national reporter for RNS based in Chicago. She covers evangelical and mainline Protestant Christianity.

352 Comments

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  • Given the swift condemnation from “insider” Republicans I imagine that these rumors were propagated by them in the first place.

  • The new World Order, you are guilty until proven guilty. Sure, it used to be innocent until proven guilty but this is now the progressive culture of death.

  • You have some 30 sources (the victims and people they spoke to years ago) for The Washington Post report, that’s a big number. Trump, in contrast, was on tape. There was nothing to deny.

  • Of course the die hard bible thumping conservatives are going to attack the accusers and the source. Accusations of sexual assault (or just plain rumors of it) are only taken at face value when the accused is a Democrat. Hypocrisy is expecting a level of courtesy and respect one does not ever show to others.

    I am not surprised by any of this in the least. Selfish arrogance at the expense of others has always been a hallmark of his actions. Roy Moore never came off as someone moral or ethical. Be it his stints on the bench where he disobeyed federal law (and ordered subordinates to do so) twice to indulge in his personal whims or his self dealing with charitable funds.

    Of course given the craven nature of conservatives who would support Moore, I suspect they will not see such acts as a disqualifier to public office. Immoral, illegal and unethical behavior is only noted for one’s political opponents. Otherwise, it is expected to be ignored and symbolically forgiven as long as someone furthers their agenda.

  • So let me get this, um, straight. Homosexual acts should be criminalized, but a 32 year-old man taking sexual advantage of 14 year-old girl is Biblical. Not to mention, it gets him elected to the US Senate. How Southern. And Christian.

  • No, you’ve got this wrong – and I think you know it. IF Moore had sexual contact with a 14-year-old girl, he would be disqualified. It would be sinful. The question is, did it happen? You automatically assume it did, because you obviously hate Christians. Many Christians give Roy Moore the benefit of the doubt because he said it didn’t happen. Why don’t we all just let this play out? And for your information, I’m a Christian from the Boston area who lives in the South. I reject bigotry towards anyone. You should try it.

  • If the person running for office was a Democrat, I doubt you would not be so ready to give him the benefit of the doubt or presume innocence here.

    Christians give Roy Moore the benefit of a doubt because he wants to advance their agenda. They don’t care about his lapses of professional ethics, prior embezzlement from a charity, or what looks like an ongoing practice of sexual impropriety.

    “I reject bigotry towards anyone.”

    Too bad Moore never did. In fact, bigotry has been his main platform. I don’t see any reason to give the man a level of consideration he would never have done to others.

  • So, is he saying the Joseph and Mary actually had sex, and that Jesus really wasn’t the son o’ god?

    Is he saying that Jesus had two daddies, and he turned out all right?

  • You are the very definition of a bigot. So you know what ALL Christians would do? You even know what I would do. For your information, I was disgusted when I heard what Kevin Spacey (allegedly) did to that 14-year-old young man, and if Roy Moore is proven to have sexually touched a 14-year-old girl, I would be equally disgusted. So, Spuddie, you’re wrong about at least one Christian.

  • So did you vote for Trump, knowing that he is three times married, and biblically, he is an unrepentant fornicateor and adulterer, admits to sexual assault— surely that must count as “lust in his heart”

  • Stetzer is right, Steigler’s statement was stupid beyond belief. Even with the younger ages acceptable for marriage in Jesus’ time, the behavior Moore is accused of would have been unacceptable. IF Moore is in fact guilty of what he is accused of, considering his behavior since the accusations were made, he isn’t fit to be a senator.

    That said, I’d ask everyone, both Republicans and Democrats, to judge him by the same standard they applied to President Clinton — justice requires a single standard of judgment, after all.

  • “Many Christians give [Moore] the benefit of the doubt” based on his word?! Why would Moore ever admit to guilt in this instance – because he’s a “Christian”? Certainly a truly honorable man would tell the truth, but that man would also not have had inappropriate relations with a child. You can no more use his declaration of innocence as an acquittal than you can believe that Trump’s protestations over the various potential indictments proves he is without guilt. Few perps say, “Yeah – I did it.”

  • -> “Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here…”

    Hmmm…Left out what dastardly deeds the Angel Gabriel (or God) did with our erstwhile virgin. Joseph was their useful idiot.

    And Roy Moore did nothing that the Ten-Commandments prohibits !! Not like he made a graven image or something seriously sinful !! That’s Christian morality for you.

  • The angel Gabriel fits in that mix somehow too…Gay marriage today got nothing on that old time religion !!

  • Moore is a pedophile and Falwell is showing his true “Christian” grifter colors by supporting him.

  • If the allegations are true, then Roy Moore is just like…

    Like Kevin Spacey, but heterosexual.

    Like Bill Clinton, but not married to Hillary.

    Like Bill O’reilly, but not recently.

    Like Harvey Weinstein, but not in the movies.

    Like Bill cosby, but not a negro.

    But…

    Like Satan, because he believes in god.

  • “You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.”

    From James’ excellent book on practical Christianity.

  • So, Ziegler’s defense really is…
    It ain’t adultery if she ain’t an adult?!?!?!?!?!?
    Ahh….Al Abama.

  • What I find disheartening it the apparent lack of support for the victim and her allegations. which appears to be simply rejected off the cuff (A simply too frequent experience for many such victims.)

    In many of the instances cited below by Ben, allegations were not all of recent sexual assaults.. But having been made, encouraged others to also come forward. I guess anything is possible but I am leaning towards the idea that the allegations are not simply dirty politics and warrant an independent assessment. Unfortunately my understanding is that in Alabama, such allegations would have had to have been brought forward within a two year period for a criminal justice response. So Moore would be scott free legally.

  • Ugh. There is nothing christian about these “christians”. The Mary and Joseph analogy is a complete joke.

  • So moore is accused of what Bean and his lover (HRC) and another member of the HRC are noted for:

    Gay rights icon Larry Brinkin has been arrested on child pornography charges, according to San Francisco police. 
Brinkin, 66, who led the fight in San Francisco for equal rights on behalf of the gay community, was booked into jail on Friday night. 
Authorities seized computers, videos, and a floppy disc from the home Brinkin shares with his husband.
The activist exchanged emails containing pornographic photographs involving children as young as one, two and three being sodomized or performing sex on adult men, according to police. 
The emails allegedly also contain explicit sexual and racist commentary including, ‘I loved especially the n***** 2 year old getting nailed.’

    “Brinkin retired from the Human Rights Commission in 2010 after working there for 22 years. The Board of Supervisors once declared the first week of February as Larry Brinkin Week to honour his work for the LGBT community. “

    Read more:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165190/San-Francisco-gay-rights-icon-Larry-Brinkin-arrested-child-pornography.html#ixzz47KhpqnG5

    Bean and His lover sexually assaulted a 15 year old and then tried to legally buy him off so the charges would be dropped. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2015/08/judge_dismisses_sex_crime_char.html
    Did Moore do the same? Or, is it just an allegation because they hope this will be the way to remedy a Christian politician? Has anyone come forward? It looks like they have had 40 years to come forward.

    Also, the Bible does not condone assaulting a child

  • No, I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of your position. you are the definition of a hypocrite.

    Kevin Spacey is not a politician nor asking for support of the masses. You were disgusted when the allegations concerning him came out, but are still to be proven, but holding out such disgust for Moore until more proof arises. You hold accusers of Moore to a different standard than you hold yourself to. Moreover, Mr. Spacey is an actor, not someone who holds himself out as a moral paragon.

    Moore ran on a campaign of bigotry wrapped up in alleged moral superiority. Of supporting legalized discrimination against people on the basis of his self-styled version of morality. All the while acting immorally, unethically and illegally.

    He was unwilling to treat others with respect, he doesn’t deserve any now.

  • Let’s state the obvious… for Republicans ad conservative Christians who support them, it’s apparently unfair and horribly liberal to presume guilt until– more accurately, UNLESS– there’s been a criminal conviction. No criminal conviction then no wrongdoing occurred.

    For non-Republicans in their gunsights, however, it’s apparently just fine to presume guilt and demand immediate repercussions because allegations don’t have to be criminal or verified prior to passing judgment. for example, Bill Clinton is a rapist, though it was definitely consensual. ‘Lock her up!’, despite gawd-knows-how-many-hearings that found no wrong doing..

  • So four different victims and thirty corroborating witnesses are ALL lying? You hypocrites are disgusting- you’ll excuse anything if it’s to your benefit to do so.

  • and if Roy Moore is proven to have sexually touched a 14-year-old girl, I would be equally disgusted

    No you wouldn’t. You’d just find a new excuse.

  • According to our legal system, you’re right — the more serious the crime, and so the harsher the potential punishment, the more certain guilt needs to be. Just look at the different standards of certainty our courts.

  • This story is well sourced and credible. Moore’s denials are self-serving and unpersusasive. The accusers will get nothing tangible out of this other than vilification or threats. There are four people making the accusations and numerous corroborating sources.

    We are not talking about sending him to jail, just not electing him to office. He is running against an honorable man of impeccable character. Even before this, Moore lied about ripping off a charity he established and regularly defied the law as a Judge. Now, politicized Christian conservatives, who are willing to vilify the LBGQT community, Muslims, and Hispanics without any evidence, are scrounging around for totally stupid biblical and legalistic defenses of this pedophile. And that is what he is. It shows that Christian conservatives are all about power and nothing about morality.

  • No it doesn’t Sandi – that’s just obfuscation. You can’t defend so you attack – always attack – are you a secret $cientologist?

    My mother (who was as sure she was a Christian as you could ever be) got a lot of things wrong but she was resolutely correct in one way.

    Two wrongs never, ever, make a right.

  • This may mean nothing in this life, Linda, or it may – depends on what the Lord wants…but, if the allegations are true against the man, they will be dealt with severely. God does not laugh at a person hurting children.
    Matthew 18:6 -English Standard Version
    but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

  • I don’t hate Christians — some of us here are Christians, but we don’t trust Roy Moore. You should examine the original POST reporting, in which it is clear there is not just one story, but several. The story of the 14 year old is the most egregious, but there is a pattern of behavior in Moore’s earlier life. And these stories were made public after interviews with 30 different people. I’d be inclined to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but that’s a lot of stories to counter, especially if they matched details.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/woman-says-roy-moore-initiated-sexual-encounter-when-she-was-14-he-was-32/2017/11/09/1f495878-c293-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html?tid=pm_politics_pop&utm_term=.64863795acb5

    Meanwhile, a month ago the story broke that Moore had received nearly $1 million from a charity he had founded — which had not been declared to the IRS either by him or the charity itself. Yes, let’s let these things “play out.” But you’d be right to be a bit skeptical about Moore’s denials.The reporting is a little tighter than allegations you’d hear on a Jerry Spring show.

  • What is wrong with you people? How would you know what I’d do? Is this website where trolls are spawned or something?

  • Absolutely, Give. And I showed twice how people from a the same homosexuals organization chose children, and were brought up on charges for it.

  • Seems that some comments may be disappearing here…The article quotes something outstanding about Christian morality, I would hope we would be allow to address it in the comments section — e.g. talking about this…

    -> “(T)ake Joseph and Mary,” Zeigler told… ‘Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here.’ …”

    My original point — which this time, I hope does not get the comment yanked…so please don’t read the rest of this if you are easily offended…

    Roy Moore’s actions does not seem to violate any of the Ten-Commandments…for example, like the all important “No Graven Images”, right?

    What did Moore do wrong after all — when a truly amazing story exists in the Christian bible about a likely teen virgin, eventually giving birth — by the exceptional actions of a few male characters…from Luke 1:26 — Yahweh, Gabriel and of course a very tolerant, un-jealous Joseph….in this context do Moore’s actions violate his faith’s morality?

  • Fine. If this Bean guy is guilty of something terrible he shouldn’t be elected to anything.

    I think we’d all do well to consult the original stories in the Post. (One link below) It is not one single allegation of bad behavior, the 14 year old was just the worst. There were several stories, of several different young girls, and a total of 30 interviews over the course of a month which led to the publication of the article. And this is not a World vs. Christians thing. Not when plenty of those concerned are Christians. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/woman-says-roy-moore-initiated-sexual-encounter-when-she-was-14-he-was-32/2017/11/09/1f495878-c293-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html?tid=pm_politics_pop&utm_term=.64863795acb5

  • Conservative Christians who act like this (unapologetic support for Roy Moore even if he did molest the child) are one of the strongest factors in driving people, especially Millennials, away from Christianity. Their breathtaking hypocrisy on issues of morality are a huge turnoff for people of conscience. The deal that conservative Christians have made since the rise of the “Religious Right” in the late 70s and early 80s is that they will betray the teachings of Christ in exchange for political power. This is why so many of them supported an amoral opportunist like Trump in the last election. This is why so many of them will continue to support Roy Moore. They claim to be Christians but they act like they don’t believe that they will have to answer to God for their willful immorality when the Devil offered them political power in the here and now.

    The instruction of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount is to recognize the potential dangers of propping oneself up (on the backs of others) and, by extension, of propping up the political/cultural system that impoverishes and exploits the many. Jesus’ instruction and warnings on the perils of a self-serving approach to these three practices are linked to his seven woes to the hypocrites in Matthew 23. Jesus critiques those who oppress others, use people for their personal favor and benefit, forget the things that matter like justice and mercy, and look shiny on the outside but are shallow on the inside. He is concerned with doing justice, not with paying actionless lip service to it while blatantly committing acts of injustice (as seen in Matt 21:28-32, 25:31-46). This emphasis on praxis in Matthew, the combinations of words and actions, is a renewal of the teachings of Mosaic covenant and prophetic traditions.

    Those who support Moore should revisit Matthew Chapter 7:15-23. “Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

  • Actually, if moore is guilty, it would fall under the 7th commandment – adultery (which includes fornication, etc)

  • It doesn’t matter whether someone is a politician or not, I was commenting about the activity. Spacey apologized to the man, which is an admission. Moore has denied it, and until proven guilty, he’s innocent. How is this hypocrisy on my part? I’m being consistent.

  • 23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25 And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.

  • One thing I have learned from this particular website paul…Are they liberal Christians, or, are they just Christians?

  • If Moore is an honorable man, he won’t bear false witness against this woman (if he committed this crime/sin). He said he upholds the importance of the Ten Commandments, so he needs to tell the truth. I believe in “innocent until proven guilty.” Don’t you? Good grief, if our society held to your view – “Few perps say, ‘Yeah – I did it.'” – then let’s lock ’em all up without a trial. Sheesh.

  • But but Clinton!

    How pathetic… BTW, Monica was a grown woman in her twenties and none of us defended or excused it anyways. Trump barged in on teenage girls while they were undressed, Roy Moore molested teenage girls

  • Ahhh, you agree! — The lurid group activity involving God, Gabriel, Joseph and a virgin is immoral…you’re coming around Sandi !!

  • And people from the community are now reporting that this woman has accused a number of pastors of making sexual advances, only to have her statements uncredible. Plus, at least one person is now saying she wasn’t 14, but 17. (See below.) I’m not saying these statements are true or untrue – I’m saying I’m waiting to see. That’s all.

    https://70news.wordpress.com/2017/11/10/roy-moores-two-accusers-leigh-corfmans-age-was-17-not-14-has-history-of-making-false-allegations-deborah-gibson-a-dem-volunteer/

  • Quick! Let’s start the smear campaign! That didn’t take long. You all should be mighty proud of yourselves… Funny how you will take the word of some blogger with zero proof- but won’t take the word of four different accusers with thirty corroborating witnesses

  • You clearly need to start praying for sexually depraved right-wingers instead of applauding their evil, as Falwell, Wildmon and the others are doing.
    It’s full-time work, I know, but somebody has to do it.

  • Not coming around whatsoever. I Just don’t believe the trash that some spew Damien. Liberal Christians will say anything.

  • Liberal here, yes, I’m proud of it !! … But alas, I haven’t been a Christian for a long time.

  • I can’t speak for other Christians. I can only speak for me. I don’t vilify other people without evidence – from any community of individuals. But neither do I condemn people without seeing ALL the evidence. Right now it’s a he-said/she-said controversy. (See below for other possible explanations.) You’re suggesting some Christians will defend Moore based on their previous support of the man. Isn’t it equally possible that you condemn him because you previously criticized him? We’re all prone to letting our biases color our decisions. I’ll tell you this right now: If he sexually touched an underage girl, that is a sinful and criminal act. Period. I would not vote for him if I lived in Alabama.

    https://70news.wordpress.com/2017/11/10/roy-moores-two-accusers-leigh-corfmans-age-was-17-not-14-has-history-of-making-false-allegations-deborah-gibson-a-dem-volunteer/

  • And if he’s not an honorable man, he likely will. If we imperfect humans didn’t ever lie, there would have been no need to include the commandment about lying (“bear false witness”). I was not in fact disputing Moore’s innocence, as you so immediately presumed, but rather I was disputing *your* hypothesis. You appear – from several comments above (called my evidentiary support) – to be quick to presume. Jump to conclusions. Sheesh.

  • Why do you believe Moore over his accusers though? You’re basically just saying you’ll believe Moore no matter what, because he’s “honorable.” Do you actually know him personally?

  • Nice non answer, hypocrite. Are all of those people lying or is Roy Moore? This should be an easy question. The fact that it’s not for some of you is quite telling…

  • So you admit you’re a hypocrite trying to distract from this mess with 25 year old whataboutism… got it.

  • Ben, if Moore did this with an underage girl, it was sinful and criminal, even if there’s no criminal conviction. How’s that?

    Also, yes, if Christians are using a double standard, then that’s hypocritical. Are you willing to apply the same standard to yourself – if the roles are reversed?

  • Yup, the very thing he was just hand wringing about (erroneously, considering how well the WaPo story is sourced). But give them some hit piece from some RW blog, and evidence suddenly doesn’t matter! Hypocrites, the lot of them.

  • Which is utterly irrelevant because it in no way excuses or diminishes the deeds of others – which is what this article is about.

    Therefore you are seeking to deflect the condemnation of wickedness.

    The second time today you’ve made babyjesus cry.

    I know you are sure that you can get away with all this rebellion and still make heaven – but doesn’t it ever occur to you that your god wouldn’t make it so easy for people to get away with wickedness if he was, himself, good. And if he’s not good why would you believe (as it appears you don’t) every/anything it says.

    Is it possible that your faith makes no sense because you’ve never dared think it through for yourself? It’s tempting to just let others tell you what to think so that you can blame them if they’re wrong – except that doesn’t work because you simply get into trouble for not using your own brain.

  • I’m not taking his word over his accusers. I’m simply saying I’m waiting to see how this plays out. She said such-and-such, he denies it.

  • No, I said I’m waiting for all the evidence to come out. And sorry I don’t fall over at something in WaPo. The newspaper endorsed Moore’s opponent. Forgive me for being a bit suspicious.

  • How did you get FOUR different victims? The other girls (not underage) said he didn’t make any sexual advances. See – this is what I’m talking about. Your hatred of someone who is a conservative Christian makes you see things that aren’t even there.

  • What on earth are you babbling about, dimwit? Four separate accusers have come forward, backed by thirty corroborating witnesses. I’m not the one in denial here…

  • After cross-examination (confronting my accuser), then let the jury decide. That’s the way it works. I’m saying, let this play out before deciding.

  • The fact you can so easily dismiss these accusations says much more about you than it does about me. By the way, I go to Mass every Sunday. I always have. I may not be the best Christian in the world, but a Christian I am. I guess you’re not as smart as you assume, Ed.

  • Actually it is a big deal. Especially one who has been running on a “I am God’s chosen candidate” position as Moore has. A person who holds themselves out as pious and moral gets treated far more roughly when reality proves them otherwise. Moreover when people are known for slinging mud at others, without any basis of fact, they get no consideration when they become the target.

    I considered the man a turd who was unfit for public office long before this story broke. I really couldn’t think of him any less now than I did before. So whether he was or was not a statutory rapist doesn’t change my opinion of him. I would not be surprised if it were true. I find it entirely within character for him if it were.

    But if conservative christians weren’t so craven and hypocritical, his prior record alone should have kept him off the ballot. Maybe this might be what puts them over the edge here. But I doubt it.

    ” How is this hypocrisy on my part?”

    Because I sincerely doubt you would have shown such respect for facts and alleged innocence if you were not aligned with his politics and belief.

  • And vice versa to you. You hate the guy and nothing I can say would ever change your opinion. I’m done feeding the trolls. Have a nice day.

  • Oh, because the Washington Post’s editorial department endorsed his opponent, that somehow invalidates a straight news report? Do you even hear yourself when you make these pathetic excuses? We get it, you will excuse and rationalize and equivocate until the end of time when it’s someone from “your team”. For the record- when Anthony Weiner got caught, despite the fact that he was a politician that I had liked, I didn’t defend him. I didn’t make excuses for him. I didn’t rationalize and move the goalposts. I certainly didn’t share smears and hit jobs on his victims. That’s because I am a decent and moral person first and I don’t put my party or religion ahead of right and wrong. You and all the other child molestor enablers, however, are more than happy to do so. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, but you’re all far too lost to even see how much you have strayed.

  • Oh BS, the only people I hate are child molestation apologists. So you’re OK with a man in his thirties grooming and preying upon a 16 year old? A 17 year old? WTF is wrong with you? What if it was your daughter? You people are disgusting.

  • You seem to be too stupid to hold a conversation- enjoy defending a child molestor. There’s a special place in hell for people like you.

  • I don’t hate Christians. I am one myself. But you must realize that it’s not always the creepy looking stranger who hides behind the bushes who do these things. It can be anyone. Even someone you think you know really well and trust. Look at the history of such people. You can’t tell by looks or good deeds.

  • It’s the standard copout for those who are Christian in name only- accuse all those with legitimate criticisms of hating Christianity. It’s BS and a lie, but it’s how they reconcile their own quite unChristian behavior.

  • So, you are telling Spuddie that you “know” what he assumes, and then, downthread, you criticize him for doing exactly what you’re doing to him? I’m not sure that’s how “do unto others” works.

  • Moore, Falwell Jr and Hannity are a disgrace to Christianity. I hope they all just get laughed off the stage.

  • You’re consistently ignoring the fact that there were 30 people interviewed for the WaPo story, all of whom corroborated the accounts by the three teens Moore tried to date when he was in his 30’s.
    Your willingness to pretend that it’s remotely feasible that in the course of a newspaper investigation, 30-odd people agreed to conspire about a fake story and get all their respective facts straight, in separate interviews, is absurd.
    Oh, and another thing. Anyone supporting Roy Moore outs themselves as not respecting the rule of law or the Constitution, as Moore was TWICE removed from the bench for his blatant disregard of the law. He’s supremely unqualified to be writing laws.

  • Stories like this show how little concern people have for their Christian values or how great a concern people have for political power. Either is deeply troubling.

  • Not just “she.” There were over 30 people interviewed for the story. So, you’re willing to call 30 people liars with zero evidence, when their 30 stories are lots of evidence that Moore is lying.
    Someone isn’t open to the facts, and it’s not those of us who believe the consistent stories of 30 people.

  • Ed, I don’t recognize this as a major news source webpage, so I’m a bit reluctant to click on the link. It doesn’t have to be Wapo, but have you got a local paper, anything? Because I am sure there will be people who will both be promoting her story (for political reasons, without really knowing the details) and seeking to cast dispersions on her story.) We would need a full investigative report.

  • A court of law isn’t the ultimate decider of reality. If you read the story and found problems with it, that’s one thing. That doesn’t seem to be what you’re basing your defense of Moore on, though.

  • I think a man in his 30’s pursuing a girl of 16 or 17 may have been legal, but it doesn’t strike me as responsible. And it does speak to a pattern of his –pursuing significantly younger women. This includes his wife, for whom no one is suggesting wrongdoing, but it does suggest that there has been a pattern in his life that doesn’t rule out concerns.(His wife was 24, and he was 38 when they married. In my family that would have raised guarded concern. Not outrage, but concern.) But sure, let’s wait and see.

  • Skeptical isn’t “condemning him because [he] previously criticized him”. He’s criticizing Moore based on the facts of Moore’s past. It’s a fact that he was removed from the bench–twice–for inappropriate behavior. And it’s not ONE accuser. There were over 30 people interviewed for the story.

  • I despise the guy for very good and well documented reasons. Between the blatant disrespect for rule of law and the embezzlement, that alone pegged him for an immoral POS.

    You show him a level of respect he has never earned, nor deserves.

    Your willingness to show him a level of benefit doubt probably does not extend beyond ideological or political lines. If you supported him prior to this revelation, I doubt you had much use for morals or ethics from the outset.

  • “Also, yes, if Christians are using a double standard, then that’s hypocritical.”
    Well they are, as it is pointed out here numerous times.

    “Are you willing to apply the same standard to yourself – if the roles are reversed?”

    Happens often enough that the answer is yes.

  • But he has proven himself to be a thoroughly dishonorable man. He has shown no regard for rule of law or the lives of others. So I have no reason to give him a benefit of a doubt.

  • “You’re suggesting some Christians will defend Moore based on their previous support of the man.”

    You are doing it now, so the answer is yes.

  • The Washington Post story has multiple corroborations and is thoroughly sourced. It’s solid, they got him. Roy Moore’s ship is on fire and sinking fast. The more politically savvy republicans immediately recognized this and promptly started fleeing. Today’s political entertainment will be watching all those too clueless to figure it out, still standing on the burning deck, engulfed in smoke, defending a child molester with their last breath.

  • No, Ed, it doesn’t work that way. Apology ain’t good enough.

    For some people, the ONLY way you can prove that you’ve actually repented of a prior divorce and remarriage, is to divorce your current spouse. Period.

    So go kick #2 or #3 to the curb, please. Act now. Create emotional and spiritual wreckage on your current spouse. Only then will you have TRULY shown Jesus that you’re really sorry for divorcing and remarrying. Only then will Jesus accept your apology & repentance. Or so some people say.

  • Unless Bean is running for political office, your comment is irrelevant. The question before Alabama voters is whether or not they want to elect someone to the US Senate who, according to over 30 sources, inappropriately targeted teen girls when he was in his 30’s. These new allegations, added to the facts we know about Moore, present a picture of a man who absolutely should not be trusted with government office.
    For goodness’ sake, the New Testament tells us that a man was not to be entrusted with the office of local church elder if his children weren’t faithful. And here we have a man whose son has been arrested 9 times. And still there are those who are more than happy to vote him into an important public office because he’s a member of the “right” party. It’s shameful.

  • Here is a prime example why religion is in a downward spiral with younger people. And who can blame?

    Evangelicals voted for a pussy-grabber liar without compunction and now they are trying make excuses for pedophilia.

    “Christianists” are killing Christianity. Nothing else is.

  • That’s looney. How do you “undo” fornication or adultery? Have you even read the Bible? Do you know what repentance is? And my comment about Trump’s apology was about his locker room talk.

  • I understand your hesitancy. All I’ve ever said here is I want to wait for all the facts to come out before roasting the guy.

  • In other words, Judge Moore is a guaranteed anti-gay-marriage Senator, if he’s elected to that position. But gay-marriage is one of the absolute 1000-percent tenets of Spuddie’s current socio-political religion.

    Therefore Moore must be gotten rid of, no matter what. Innocent? Guilty? Doesn’t matter. Lynch first, ask questions later.

  • You juts admitted you beleieved it when a man accused Spacey but do not beleive it when several women accuse Moore. You’re a basic off-brand hypocritical pretend christian.

  • Again, Horseshit. I’l bet you beleived lots of things about Clinton that were proven false. You christianists all need to be called out for your evilness of supporting rapists and child moletsters.

  • As far as I’ve read, we’re talking about an accusation of one criminal act. The other girls were not underage and they all said there was nothing more than kissing. So most of the 30 sources are in reference to those girls. We have one woman who said she was 14 and Moore acted criminally against her. I think she told two friends (?) at the time that she was dating an older man, and then told her mom 10 years later that it was Moore – and what he did. I think that’s what the WaPo article said. Now, if the woman told her friends at the time that Moore did such-and-such, that would be testimony I would be willing to listen to.

  • As Moore says (of himself in reality) the forces of evil lie. American religion becomes more and more evil.

  • C’mon, Ed. Ya gotta git with the official program around here. Moore opposes legalized gay marriage, therefore his accuser is automatically telling the truth no matter what.

    Surely you understand the process up in here, right? So stop offering us all this inconvenient information. Let’s go get them pitchforks and torches. We got ourselves a conservative judge to get rid of !!

  • I would and I do. I’m not perfect, but when I do wrong, I admit it, and do my best to make amends.

  • When did Trump apologize for bragging about adultery and sexual battery? Is the apology recorded and available for viewing?

    Narcissists such as Trump are quite loath to make apologies, even when it is in their best interest to do so. If their hand is forced, the “apology” is usually perfunctory and lacking any aura of sincerity.

    Take for instance, the continual birtherism/secretly-muslim string of lies. Trump gave a reluctant short sentence saying Obama was born American, with no apology and with no compunction.

  • There it is. “I hate Christians and everything they say and do is evil.” Again: Troll. And I’m done with this troll factory of a web site.

  • “Apologizing for locker room talk”, ain’t no good either. You see, WE don’t go by what the Bible says about repentance. (Or biblical salvation, or biblical authority, or biblical Jesus). WE only go by whether your last name is Trump.

    If your last name is Trump, you are automatically unrepentant and evil, no matter how many evangelicals you’ve prayed and repented with. Why? Because all those Bible-believing Christians who oppose legalized gay marriage, voted for Trump and made our beloved gay-marriage Queen Hillary to cry many tears on election night. THAT, is the unforgivable sin in this discussion forum.

    So don’t be a sinner Ed. WE hate your guts already, even for suggesting the concept of fairness and due process. WE want pitchforks and torches!!

  • So, change the subject.

    How do I know? BECAUSE HE IS STILL LIVING WITH HIS THIRD WIFE AFTER HIS DIVORCES. Jesus said that if a man marries after a divorce, he’s living in adultery.

    “Have you not read, that he who created them from the beginning of creation made them male and female, and said ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh’? Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” Mark 10: 2

    So, divorce is a sin. But wait! There’s more! Verses separated for absolute clarity.

    10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this.

    11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.

    12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

    So 2Rump is still living in sin. He is committing sin, and if he is still sinning, then he is hardly being repentant about it, is he?

    But wait! There’s even more to come, even better still, if possible.

    2Rump is heterosexual. So none of this applies, and merits at best a colossal ho-hum from the fundelibangelists, to whom he represents power, money, and dominion, specially if he promises to get them ickeeee gays who have the temerity to think that they are as good as any fundelibangelist– who violate every single one of their alleged values by supporting him– well, every single one of their alleged values except for their never ending quest for power, money, and dominion.

  • Actually, this is not a case of pedophilia. Pedophilia is the sexual attraction an adult has for a pre-pubescent child. It’s a mental disorder, but not illegal. It can, and often times does, lead to illegial activity.

    Moore is being accused of child molestation. That is illegal regardless of the age of the child. It doesn’t matter whether she was two years under the age of consent or ten. Because the woman was a girl of 14 at the time it can be assumed she was not pre-pubescent. It doesn’t make the situation better. Assuming these allegations are true, they are reprehensible. I simply think it’s important to state the accusaton accurately.

  • And also let’sapply the same standard to Hillary Clinton as well. You are correct to mention Bill Clinton, but the fact is that women came forward and tried to tell the media that while Bill snatched ’em, Hillary silenced them.

    Yet Hillary’s actions got a free pass. And still do.
    Let’s correct that mistake soon, right Ben?

  • You understand neither marriage nor the Bible. Your passage doesn’t say “living in adultery,” does it? It says “commit adultery” – as in one act. Marrying the woman – and consummating it on the wedding night – is a single act of adultery. Once that happens, however, the two have become one flesh and are to remain married. This is why fornication is a sin – the man and the woman have become one flesh (1 Cor. 6:16). They are married. Nice try.

    Now, I REALLY am done with this web site and this exhausting exchange against – apparently – every Christian-hater on the planet. But I had to reply to you because you were twisting the Scriptures. Don’t be offended if I drop out of the discussion. Have a nice day.

  • But you’re the troll. You’re the one who came here making baseless accusations of people. If that’s not trolling what is it?

  • Thank you, Jesus!!!!!!
    And thanks, floyd, for admitting that I can and do quote the bible accurately. But mostly, thanks for admitting that you really don’t believe that the bible is the unchanging word of god, that you really do believe that moral relativism is the fundamentalist stock in trade….
    and for admitting that you really don’t give a small goddam about what the bible says, unless it supports your prejudices.
    Jesus said it Floyd, not me. Are you really prepared to deny what Jesus said, Peter?

  • Well that is a nice attempt at pretending my POV is based entirely on unreasonable bias. But it is entirely fictitious.

    I could be accused of treating him unfairly, if one is to overlook his violations federal law and court orders and his embezzlement from charity. But based on his prior conduct, conduct which got him removed from public office before, one can clearly see he is neither honorable, has a shred of professional ethics, morality or fit for public office.

    I considered him scum before the statutory rape allegations came out. I made that pretty clear here and in prior articles on this site about the man . He already was guilty of those acts. One more can’t make me think any less of him.

    Given his prior conduct, I have no need to give him the benefit of the doubt now.

  • Perhaps you could specify to Ed exactly where Jesus commanded this brand new repentance-requirement in the Bible?

  • Honey, I didn’t twist the scriptures. I QUOTED THEM. VERBATIM NEW INTERNATIONAL VIRGIN— err, umm, version. Jesus didn’t mention sex in this context at all. You’re adding that so that you don’t have to retreat from your imaginary principles and equally imaginary morals. The VERY ACT OF DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE IS DEFINED BY GOD HIMSELF AS ADULTERY.
    This is the problem with you fundelibangelists, and you and Floyd have demonstrated it in spades in your support for your heroes.
    you should leave, because there are more athiests than me who are quite conversant with the bible, and we’re not going to let you off easily…
    at least not as easily as you let off yourself.

  • It would be statutory rape. A girl of 14 cannot consent to sex with an adult. Its a per se crime. There is no mitigating factors in defense of it other than “it didn’t happen”.

  • We’ve had this conversation before. I would suggest you read that, and then get out your Merriam Webster and see what repentance means.
    Gee whizikins, Jesus, I’m sorry I sinned, but I’m going to keep on doing it.

  • I just wanna know where Jesus said to kick your current spouse to the curb if you are divorced and remarried.

    Just show me where He said, “Your Second Divorce Will Prove To Me That You’re Truly Sorry For Your First Divorce, Otherwise I Don’t Believe Any Confession and Repentance You Offer To Me.”

  • Sigh. Yes, you quoted the Bible – just like Satan did. But you TWISTED it. Just like your father. Really, now, Benjamin, I must let you go. If ever you want to have an actual discussion – an honest conversation – about the Bible, let me know. Peace out.

  • You have your own special word meanings, doncha, snowflake.
    Jesus didn’t say kick your wife to the curb. He did say, using the present participle, HE IS COMMITTING ADULTERY AGAINST HER. Not WAS committing, an action that continued in the past. Not DID, and action that was completed in the past. But IS, an action that is continuing in the present.
    You don’t repent of a sin by continuing in it. That’s not repentance, that’s fundamentalism.

  • I quoted the bible. Verbatim. YOU threw in the requirement for sex, thereby twisting the passage, not me. You just don’t like the results, and like so many hypocrites, really don’t like your sins being demonstrated as clearly as this.

    That’s what you fundelibangelists do: you project on to others your own sins so that you can damn them for it.

    so, run away, little Christian.

  • BTW, thank you so much for the anti-semitic reference from John. I caught it, and you know it was there. But I’m sure you’ll deny that, too.
    I used ot say that some people have the morals of a congressman. But thanks to you and Floyd and Trump and moore, I can now correct that to “the morals of a fundamentalist”.

  • Uh, no. Try again. Sandi provides deflections better than anyone on this site. They have nothing to do with the subject at hand because they are meant to deflect attention away from it. Her offering above provides a story of reprehensible actions that have nothing to do with Roy Moore and the subject at hand. Also note, no one here is defending Larry Brinkin or providing excuses for him. It has nothing to do with anything other than he got what was coming to him.

  • You are the one handing them out. Its not like you have shown the same level of consideration you want for Moore to anyone on the other side of the political fence.

    I distinctly remember the hay you were making for completely baseless rumors on similar lines for a number of other figures on the political left (or really just left of reactionary)

  • It’s called a statute of limitations. Unless something happened more recently there can be no charges.

  • Isn’t that lucky for them if they aren’t telling the truth? And, that way, the only reputation that is hurt, is his…….hmmmmmmmm

  • How could anyone defend Bean or Brinklin? And they’re both from the HRC! Surprise, surprise, surprise

  • Perhaps you could explain to me and your fellow fundamentalists here how repentance means that you commit your sin, say your sorry, and then go right back to comitting it every day of your life?

    I’ll get the popcorn.

  • Btw, Ed, “is committing” does not refer to one act, in the past, but to an ongoing action, in the present.

  • Well, one thing that takes away from the appearance of truthfulness, is she waited 40 years to report it.

  • I’ve already mentioned “the perfect tag team” — Bill who snatched ’em, and Hillary who silenced ’em. Hillary got free pass on every “silencee.”

    But meanwhile, regarding this current wave of “sexual harassment” claims, I did — and still do — feel that fairness and due process seems to be skipped over, in at least some cases.

    Do we still believe the principle of “innocent until proven guilty” for the accused (at least those who reasonably deny the harassment claim rather than confessing to it), regardless of the accused’s sexual orientation? I do. Do you?

  • But, I see you cannot defend your deflections. That’s what you need to do, not state the obvious in a purely irrelevant story to Roy Moore’s.

  • And meanwhile, GOP leader Mitch McConnell has already said if Moore is guilty, Moore must go. Is that good enough for you?

  • And right there, that “No” is the problem. Libbies are saying “No” because they no longer care about facts. All they want, is to get rid of a visibly anti-gay-marriage GOP Senate Candidate,no matter what.

    Taking time to hash out innocence, guilt or inconvenient-details, don’t seem to matter to Moore’s opponents. All they really want — as Justice Clarence Thomas correctly pointed out in an earlier era — is the high-tech lynching.

  • “You automatically assume it did, because you obviously hate Christians.”
    No, we assume it did because four women (and a total of 30 people) came forward to give compelling testimony against a pedophile.
    Why are YOU acting like standing up to a pedo is somehow hating Christians? Telling.

  • Jeff Flake got it right: “When we excuse on our side what we attack on the other, then we are hypocrites. If we do that as a practice, then we are corrupt.”

    Or republicans,

  • So you immediately accept a man’s testimony of molestation, but not a woman’s.
    And you resort to name calling because you have nothing but your biased opinions.

  • Thank you for proving my point.

    The major difference being we know Roy Moore was a self-righteous, dishonest, unethical, embezzler before we found out he was a sexual predator.

    All you had were rumors and wild innuendo that weren’t even being reported. Not even by the wingnut press. Roy Moore has about 30 accusers who were willing to talk to a nationally recognized news source.

    So if you want me to give Moore the benefit of a doubt, tough luck. He never deserved it. If you want to pretend that I am simply making crap up out of personal bias, tough luck on that. My point is well made to the contrary. You know I considered him scum long before this.

  • Perhaps you remember these two verses you mentioned earlier:

    11 He (Jesus) answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
    12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

    So **you** are saying that a divorced & remarried person must divorce their CURRENT spouse, in order to repent of the adultery Jesus mentioned.

    But Ed was right; you do have it twisted. For if the divorced & remarried person divorces their (current) 2nd or 3rd spouse, then according to Jesus, they are **now** committing adultery against the 2nd or 3rd spouse as well!!

  • So whenever the Bible says something inconvenient, it must mean something else entirely. And divorce followed by remarriage is perfectly fine, because it would be a sin to divorce.

    Circular reasoning at its finest.

  • No, you just gotta stop twisting stuff, and trying to dodge the Bible’s authority in your life. The Bible makes sense, but you gotta stop running from it.

  • Whenever I say something inconvenient, it must be that I need the Bible.

    Take it up with GAWD, not me. I didn’t write the Bible, I’m just reporting what it says,

  • In other words, the mere accusation (carried by the “biased-of-all-biaseds” WaPo) suffices for you as truth, NO due process or fair assessment of both parties’ claims needed, because you “considered him scum long before this”, and that basis alone is sufficient to adjudicate the truth of the matter. For you, that is.

    Did any of these 30 WaPo accusers agree to at least a polygraph test?
    How about cross-ex from a professional attorney? Are any of them up for that?
    And does working for the DNC and supporting Moore’s opponent need to be considered?

    http://rinf.com/alt-news/newswire/moore-accuser-a-democrat-activist/

  • something about “blessed is he who dashes the head of the little ones against the rocks” comes to mind.

  • It’s called projection, and they are masters at it. You should read some of the comments in RNS, wherein one will accuse other Christians that they are not the right sort of Christian at all.

  • Actually not at all. If you were reading, you would know that a history of known malfeasance, and credible sources tends to make those “mere” accusations look credible.

    He was scum in my consideration BECAUSE OF DUE PROCESS AND FAIR ASSESSMENT OF THE CLAIMS. That was before these accusations. You seem to want to gloss over that part or pretend I didn’t say it.

    Its a helluva lot more than merely repeating a meme concerning a public figure which wasn’t even being reported. As you have done for the Clintons.

    Moreover, one should not ask others to give a a public figure the benefit of the doubt if they are unwilling to do so themselves.

    Moore had no business running for public office in the first place. You know I was critical of him based on his known acts which he was punished for long before this. But why let that get in the way of apologetic crap.

  • I suppose you would.
    Psalm 137

    1By the waters of Babylon,
    there we sat down and wept,
    when we remembered Zion.
    2On the willowsa there
    we hung up our lyres.
    3For there our captors
    required of us songs,
    and our tormentors, mirth, saying,
    “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
    4How shall we sing the LORD’s song
    in a foreign land?
    5If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
    let my right hand forget its skill!
    6Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth,
    if I do not remember you,
    if I do not set Jerusalem
    above my highest joy!
    7Remember, O LORD, against the Edomites
    the day of Jerusalem,
    how they said, “Lay it bare, lay it bare,
    down to its foundations!”
    😯 daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed,
    blessed shall he be who repays you
    with what you have done to us!
    9Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones
    and dashes them against the rock!

    It is a song of pain and anguish. It is written about what Israel would like to do to those who hurt them terribly.
    “After Herod’s death, the Idumaean people slowly disappeared from history. God had foretold the destruction of the Edomites in Ezekiel 35, saying, “As you rejoiced over the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so I will deal with you; you shall be desolate, Mount Seir, and all Edom, all of it. Then they will know that I am the Lord” (Ezekiel 35:15). Despite Edom’s constant efforts to rule over the Jews, God’s prophecy to Rebekah was fulfilled: the older child served the younger, and Israel proved stronger than Edom.”
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Edomites.html
    It’s how the Lord protects His people from the immoral – probably like the kid Bean went after – if he is a Christian, or the children who were forced into sexual situations by the people taking photos for Brinkin and their accusers stepped forward in a timely manner. (edited)

  • OK, this Mary-and-Joseph analogy denies the Virgin Birth and says that the couple “got it on” in the normal way that women get pregnant. I get it.

    As Gandhi said, “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

  • They may read the Bible, but their knowledge of world history is scant to non-existant. My understanding is that both Mary and Joseph were teenagers. I don’t know, 14, 15, or 16, but that was not only the Jewish custom at the time, humans in general did not live that long, especially the poor, so naturally they had to fast-track things up a bit.

  • I agree! Not guilty until proven guilty.

    That said, the right wing Protestant fundamentalists have aleady tried and executed Hollywood, en masse.

  • Nope. It’s you fundamentalists who are the bigots. Even Limbo the Cheese said to wait and see. Those fundamentalists who are apologizing for him or saying he is innocent are being prejudiced in favor of him.

  • Speaking for myself, I don’t hate any of the major faiths. Everyone has a right to believe whatever. But the Fundamentalists are the most contradictory. And they get into politics more than any other group. The fundamentalists loathe and misunderstand so much, that they are willlng to lay down with the Devil if it means to defeat it! As they see Celery guilty by association, their only option is to embrace the man who genuflects at the altar of Mammon.

  • Roy Moore, Donald Trump, and the other grifters and con-artists that make up the Facist right in this country don’t do apologies. If you actually believe he didn’t do this, then do what you must. But this monster will never sue the Post, because he doesn’t want a full blown investigation of his background. The religious right in this country has sold its soul to criminalize abortion, while taking health care from the poor and destroying the middle class.

  • No, my fellow born-again Christian brother Roy Moore, you don’t get to call even a false accusation of you sexually molesting a person – what?! – “an all-out war on our conservative values!”? How about “an all-out war on” your Christ, instead, maybe? (But which you never claimed what this is – weird, that.) But “an all-out war on our conservative values!” So that’s it, then, and now we know: Your Christ is “Conservative Values!”

    My admonition: Clear your conscience. Clear your name. Face your accuser. Prove your guilt. Or innocence. But not your American Conservatism.

  • I think Roy Moore is only going to accelerate the mass exodus of Evangelical Christians.

    They can all smell the mark of the beast on Roy.

  • You do know that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters, right? And the Bible says that Joseph waited to have intimate relations with Mary until after she gave birth to Jesus, so … one year after she became pregnant, tops?

  • Prove he did it. At least in the case of Clinton and Trump, there was a clear ongoing history of behavior and personal statements to make it believable. Considering there is nothing that I’ve heard of in all of Moore’s history to lend credence to the accusations, why should we take their word over his?

  • Other than Steigler’s incredibly stupid statement, I haven’t heard a single Republican say that if the accusations are true the behavior should be excused. So what is there in Judge Moore’s background that says we should take his accusers’ side over him?

  • I’m not taking anyone’s side, actually. Not strictly speaking. I detest the man and everything he allegedly stands for. I detest the hypocrisy that excuses him, true or false. And I still expect him to be elected because of both. And for the record, I detest ancient allegations being brought up whether Moore or Mrs. Clinton is the target.

  • When you talk about “cLear, ongoing history”, or could make a number of observations about moralizing people being caught being immoral.

    In Moore’s case, quite apart from his obsessions, there is that $100,000 that was forgotten.

  • With you, that isn’t difficult. Thanks though.
    Here, I’ll simplify it for you. No one did that. Someone wanted to do that. It never happened. It was a cry of pain.
    Nor did the Lord do such, as He is a God of love, not hate.
    The Lord did threaten the people though and probably followed through with that because of what they had done to His people – Jesus loves His people.

  • It depends on whether the ancient allegations are still reflected in current behavior. The allegations leveled against the Clintons and Trump, you betcha. The fact that Obama used recreational drugs when he was young? Irrelevant.

  • And that makes him a default pedophile? There’s a difference between being caught being immoral and being accused of being immoral.

  • What is truly reprehensible is you getting sucked into defending Moore by casting innuendo of the victim’s credibility. You do a great disservice to sexual assault victims who typically take a long time to come forward because of feelings of personal guilt, lack of power, and the fear of not being believed in the first place. Those are the basic dynamics that prevent most rape victims going forward to police. Most young people do not disclose until they are adults so there is nothing unusual about such behaviour. The onus should not be on the victim but Moore to disprove allegations.

  • Thousands of Evangelical minsters in Alabama will take to their pulpits this Sunday and declare the God has personally endorsed Roy Moore for the Senate and that anyone who refuses to vote for him is committing a sin. And the people will obey and give their vote to Roy Moore. It wouldn’t matter if Roy Moore has sexually assaulted hundreds of girls – there is nothing that is going to dissuade the Evangelicals in Alabama from voting for him. They 100% believe the lie that God has endorsed Roy Moore’s bid for the Senate. He’ll win too.

  • Such nail on the head doesn’t have to be the final nail in the coffin for Moore. It’s up to him to do right – instead of the per usual religious right move – so as to overturn it all. I don’t feel comfortable with this possibility not only because I never want him to win the senatorial seat, but because it’s not in him to do the right thing.

  • Unless, of course, Moore’s found guilty in the courthouse and sent to prison. This is still a chargeable crime, isn’t it? Or is this it? What we’re seeing – the back & forth spin & counterspin – this is the endgame? If so, it’s all politics, then. Never mind The Molested, no, not really. Just the politiking F/X, yeah?

  • Hope so. If he’s sent to prison, that is. Unless you think these Evangelicals are going to take a hike on the say-so of an accuser? Not even scums of planet Earth would do that. I won’t. Oh wait, you’ve taken a hike lately. What were you accused of?

  • The Christian Taliban show their true colors … once again. Well done, Christianists — you’ve managed to live down to all my expectations of you. Congratulations on your achievement! 

  • I will tell you that most 14 year old girls would have not been sharing that kind of information – especially that long ago – with anyone. it would be something that you would know was wrong but would not know what to do about it and also see yourself to blame. And tit would have been perceived as a huge risk of social ostracism within the school, church and broader community..

  • Who’s prosecuting Moore soon, or do you really not know after all? Who’s going to represent him? Someone from that “burning deck”? Be more specific, please. Because I gotta have all the relevant info to close the case. … What’s that? Can you speak up? Something about nothing’s scheduled yet that soon? But I thought you said people are being “engulfed in smoke”. Oh that kind. Not justice smokin’ for The Molested?

  • Leibesh: Rabbi! May I ask you a question?

    Rabbi: Certainly, Lebisch!

    Leibesh: Is there a proper blessing … for the Millennial Stars?

    Rabbi: A blessing for the Millennial Stars? Of course! May God bless and keep the Millennial Stars … far away from us!

    MORAL LESSON: Kissing up to Millennials & the Religious Nones-Sensical stinks, IMHO.

  • There is a 2 year statue of limitations in Alabama. So no independent arbitration of the facts.

  • So it did not happen to ALL 4 girls? None of them want money, or justice…They just want the truth known…

  • Ed, I believe Ben in Oakland is wiping the ground with you. You’re not a very good advocate for biblical principles, so you should really just stop, and go pray about how best to serve the Lord. My suggestion is to never publicly argue with someone who knows the verses far better than you do.

  • A Christian would let the devil shit in his mouth if an atheist had to smell it. Same goes for Conservatives and Liberals.

    Roy Moore is done, and at 70 years old and a proud homophobe and bigot, he deserves to be done. I think America has seen enough of the diseased fruits of the labors of White Christian Republicans over the last century, and Trump and Co is currently trying to tear the country apart.

    I liked what I saw in Barack Obama and Elizabeth Warren, I think we need to elect Progressives up and down the ticket and see what they can do without all the obstruction we saw under Obama.

  • The bible makes sense? Really? There’s so many contradictions in the bible it reads like stereo instructions from a madman. What’s so funny about Christians is they’ve been forced to choose between fealty to the bible and basic reason and logic.

    The bible is great for defending whatever you want it to defend, like pedophilia or slavery or rape, but when the contradictions are reflected back to you, well… it gets ya all flustery and discombobulated.

    Watching Ben in Oakland kick your asses is actually quite entertaining to watch, like when Chris Hansen asks a pedophile to take a seat in the kitchen of the underage girl he came to molest.

  • Oh you want fairness now? Ok, can we get the Fairness Doctrine back then? I doubt you’d want that back, because when Reagan killed it he opened the gates for evil assholes like Rush Limbaugh and all the other right wing pundits to brainwash 25% of America on the AM radio drivetime hour.

    Trump is a symptom of the disease Reagan unleashed in America, and you Christians supported it. Well, guess what? You sealed your fate back then, because if you’d stayed a religion of love-your-neighbor and help-the-poor, you’d still be thriving and considered a force for good.

    Look around… Christianity is losing tithe-bearing members faster than rats leaving the Titanic because you guys have become so divisive, mean, bigoted and ignorant since you decided to try and rule America through the ballot box.

    Your chickens are coming home to roost, and it’s almost Judgement Day, only not the kind you’re expecting. Sure, the wheat will be divided from the chaff, except you’re the chaff and the fire of justice is starting to ignite.

    Personally, I’d dance a jig when you magical-thinking mental midgets are so far in the minority that people start to forget you ever had power.

  • Just like I hear all Trump supporters saying… “Let’s just wait and see what Trump’s gonna do… give the man a chance to be President!”

    We have, and it’s assholes, treason and national embarrassment up and down the line. Nice way to finally end the Republican Party, but it took an orange idiot and you’re own misguided sense of Party loyalty over country to do it.

    I say good riddance to bad rubbish.

  • I stand by The Accusing Molested, then. The Accused MolestOR won’t get his senate seat – good. So this is how Lynching Justice Made in USA works! My prediction: suicide.

    Then again my other half of the money is on him ending up in Capitol Hill. Which shall make November 6, 2016 feel like New Year’s Eve compared to December 2017 election.

  • I think you are 100% bang on here. It’s not in him to do the right thing, because he thinks he is god. But his brand of theocratvplays really well in Al Abama. I thoroughly Expect him to be elected, because ultimately, as I always say, it’s about power, money, and dominion. Getting removed TWICE from the Supreme Court of Al Abama should disqualify him from anything, but instead. It qualifies him. Go figure.

  • Oh, my. Oh my. Oh my.

    Sexual abuse allegations coming out of the woodwork. Priests, ministers, theocrats, movie actors, movie producers, you name it.

    Personally, as far as Moore goes, I don’t care too much about what might have happened 40 years ago, though I am not negating the seriousness of it. People ought to be far more concerned over his theocratic tendencies, the movement of $100000, his disrespect for the rule of law, and his alignment with the trumpanzee. But they are not. I predict the voters of Al Abama won’t care either, because Moore represents power, money, and dominion, especially over the icky gays. And it’s Al Abama, for “heaven’s” sake. She wasn’t his sister or under 10, so it’s not so important.

    Why does this remind me of the McMartin preSchool hysteria, the satanic abuse hysteria, and the communist hysteria, the gay hysteria?

    Americans sure require a lot of dark, shiny objects to keep them terrified of everything.

  • And you assume this was made up.

    Ignoring that, if it had been made up, it would be a lot more scandalous than described, because if your going to lie, go for broke. Why settle for just 1 underage account? Why settle for just molestation and underage drinking? Why have it be in 1979?

    Meanwhile, Moore himself has not denied the accusations. He goes to get trouble to talk around them in ways that aren’t easily actionable – an innocent person could just say “Hell no! It’s BS! I’ve never pursued teen girls for relationships or sex. I only ever dated women who were old enough that I didn’t NEED to get their mother’s permission.”

    And yet that is what he has so far failed to do.

  • Enjoy the show, ‘brah!

    Episode 666 has this cliffhanger sponsored in the teaser trail by …. [fill in here the 1st capitalist transnational conglomerate that comes to mind].

    Suicide? Or the Senate Seat?

    All my money invested in the $8 billion (circa 2015) firearms industry is betting on 50% Suicide and 50% Capitol Hill.

  • Just as atheism is all made-up too, then, if any of these self-critical atheists are to be believed:

    According to Frank Pasquale, an atheist himself (cf. Secularism & Secularity: Contemporary International Perspectives, Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture (ISSSC), 2007): Atheists have been labelled “fundamentalists” by secular humanists. “In a meeting of secular humanists, one audience member proclaims, ‘We have our fundamentalists, too. They’re called Atheists.'”

    According to Stephen LeDrew, an atheist himself (cf. The Evolution of Atheism: The Politics of a Modern Movement, Oxford University Press, 2016): The atheists’ endgame is “the universalization of the ideology of scientism and the establishment of its cultural authority”. Atheism is an “essentially political phenomenon [while] only manifestly a critique of religion … [It] is ultimately about power.”

    According to CJ Werleman, an atheist himself (cf. The New Atheist Threat: The Dangerous Rise of Secular Extremists, Dangerous Little Books, 2016): Atheists are “secular fundamentalists” who put faith in “the beneficent U.S. secular state.”

    According to Sikivu Hutchinson, an atheist herself (cf. Moral Combat: Black Atheists, Gender Politics, and the Values Wars, 2011): Atheists’ “critiques of organized religion [have] limited cultural relevance for people of color … [Atheism] preserves and reproduces the status quo of white supremacy in its arrogant insularity. In this universe, oppressed minorities are more imperiled by their own investment in organized religion than [by] white supremacy. Liberation is not a matter of fighting against white racism … and classism but of throwing off the shackles of superstition.”

    According to Daniel Fincke, an atheist himself (cf. “Why I Criticize My Fellow Atheists”, Camels with Hammers, June 17, 2013): Atheists are “just looking for flaws in theism or religious people’s behavior out of some animus … prejudice or malice. … Some atheists really do seem to have gotten into this movement to indulge in their feelings of superiority to those they pitilessly disparage as ‘stupid’ or wicked. … They are just in this to throw rocks at the ‘retards’. I have no sympathies with such people and am ashamed that they’re associated with me.”

  • All depends on your definition of “pervs”. Remember Atheist Richard Dawkins’ perversion I mean version?

    Pedophilia “should not be judged by modern standards. I am very conscious that you can’t condemn people of an earlier era by the standards of ours. Just as we don’t look back at the 18th and 19th centuries and condemn people for racism in the same way as we would condemn a modern person for racism … [I myself was forced to] fend off nocturnal visits to my bed from senior boys much larger and stronger than I was … [which didn’t cause any] lasting damage. … Mild pedophilia … never did him any harm. … [So, too, rape isn’t] mild touching up”.

    (Source: Lee Moran, “Atheist writer Richard Dawkins sparks outrage by suggesting child sex abuse scandals are overhyped”, New York Daily News, September 11, 2013.)

  • All depends on your definition of “criminalized”. Remember Atheist Richard Dawkins’ perversion I mean version?

    Pedophilia “should not be judged by modern standards. I am very conscious that you can’t condemn people of an earlier era by the standards of ours. Just as we don’t look back at the 18th and 19th centuries and condemn people for racism in the same way as we would condemn a modern person for racism … [I myself was forced to] fend off nocturnal visits to my bed from senior boys much larger and stronger than I was … [which didn’t cause any] lasting damage. … Mild pedophilia … never did him any harm. … [So, too, rape isn’t] mild touching up”.

    (Source: Lee Moran, “Atheist writer Richard Dawkins sparks outrage by suggesting child sex abuse scandals are overhyped”, New York Daily News, September 11, 2013.)

  • Give A polygraph to Moore and one to his accuser. The guilty person gets jail time. Problem solved.

  • Re: “So whenever the Bible says something inconvenient, it must mean something else entirely.” 

    You’ve only just figured out, this is the Christianist game? They’ve been playing it for a very long time, and they’re not about to stop now. 

  • “The question is, did it happen? You automatically assume it did, because you obviously hate Christians.” So far as I know from another blog site, our fellow blogger does not “hate Christians”. As regards folks like me who think Moore *did* commit the wrongful acts described by the four women, I don’t think we are *assuming* anything. We are, instead, *presuming* he did wrong. Context is important here, and it portrays a man who (a) is lying today because he knows his accusers are telling the truth or (b) is caught up in psychological denial because he cannot deal with the reality of his situation. Either way, Roy Moore is sick or sinful. In the Bible, they can mean one and the same thing.

  • He quoted the New Testament. It’s pretty clear on divorce and remarriage — with porneia allowing for the exception to God’s black-and-white law. Nothing about “sex”. You went off on a tangent.

  • If Pasquale, LeDrew, Werlemann, Hutchinson & Fincke are right about atheism, then your atheism has also been a myth, “all made up”.

  • Premature, dude

    Jumping the gun

    This is nothin’

    You ain’t seen nothin’ yet

    My fellow born-again Christian brothers & sisters are doing this to themselves

    God lookin’ down at them, like, Not My problem

    If anything, our God is punishin’ us

  • You’re wrong. It’s not a tangent. SEX is what joins a man and woman and makes them one flesh. That’s what creates a marriage. It’s why it’s called a WEDDING – the two are “wed” or joined. It’s why I quoted 1 Corinthians 6:16 – sex with a prostitute “marries” the two. Paul even quotes Genesis 2: “The two shall become one flesh.” This is why fornication is a sin. In God’s eyes, it’s serial marriage. This is also why homosexual marriage is not really marriage. Two men cannot join together and create “one flesh,” because that is ordained ONLY for male and female (opposite genders) becoming one flesh. It is NOT primarily about gooey feelings of “love.” (Which is why an arranged marriage is STILL a real marriage, even if the husband and wife didn’t know each other ahead of time – and thus couldn’t have been “in love.”) Finally, this is why I said a sinful divorce and remarriage is only adultery the first time the two have sex. After that, they are joined in a real marriage. There is no requirement for the two to break up the second marriage.

    This is all I’ll say about this. All the other false teachers who have been blathering about this subject can read this answer. The word of God is clear.

  • So what. I’m sure you spent your life saying sorry. It’s just a word. Grow up. Hypocritical Christian crackpots should be incarcerated.

  • But jesus said no divorce. If you divorce And remarry you commit adultery. He says nothing about “after That.”

  • If they are right. If they speak for other atheists and not merely themselves.

    Werleman is especially problematic. He sounds like a hyper libertarian first, who also happens to be an atheist.

  • No they don’t. They have as much right to their views and opinions as anyone else. Remember the First Ammendment? Fundamentalism apparently is not limited to religious beliefs as evidenced by the hateful postings of some anti-theists in recent weeks.

  • If Progressive Christians, Christian Left and Liberal Christians are right about Christianity, then my Christianity has been a myth, “all made up”. To ensure that it isn’t, I listen to them and discuss with them, learn from them and prove them wrong – every step of the way, skipping no details and leaving no stone unturned. But if they’re right, I must renounce and convert. My 1st choice is Jurgen Habermas’ post-Marxist atheism.

    Your turn. Let me hear you now type, while calming down Scaredy Cat Brooks Austin there, who, in unison with all the Scaredy Cat Atheists at RNS, is pulling sideways your tuxedo flaps going, “Please, please, say it ain’t so, Joe I mean Benj, please, please”:

    “If Pasquale, LeDrew, Werlemann, Hutchinson & Fincke are right about atheism, then my atheism has also been a myth, ‘all made up’. To ensure that it isn’t, I listen to them and discuss with them, learn from them and prove them wrong – every step of the way, skipping no details and leaving no stone unturned. But if they’re right, I must renounce and convert. My 1st choice is Christ Jesus and the gospel of salvation through His crucifixion, burial and resurrection.”

    Sign here. And here. And here. Oh and, uh, might as well give me your car keys as a collateral.

  • Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 2 Timothy 2:23

  • I follow the Lord Jesus. So does Ed. We made a choice to do that because we were done with the lies of Satan. The stupid thing we did was wait however long we did to make the decision. Since then, we are led to wisdom by the Holy Spirit. Now, this is a religious news site. So maybe you trolled here to stir up an argument. Whatever the case, know Jesus loves you and brought you here so you would know that. Seek Him and know what freedom really is.

  • How do you know of his conversations with God? That is between them, not you. If you are unsaved your life is condemned. Who are you to judge Anyone? Instead of looking at your life and admitting yourself a sinner you point your finger at anyone you can and take aim. That’s Satan’s ploy. And all you trolls for Satan on this site are the pawns. This is a sad story for many reasons. And here you are like pigs in slop trying to defend your self righteousness against God? The unclean can not present themselves to Him until reborn. The Lord God will be the judge and His will shall be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

  • Again, atheism is a creed for some people. You can call it a lifestyle choice, if that makes for a better analogy.For nearly every atheist i know and have known, myself included, it is simply a lack of belief. I no more think about your god in my daily life than I think about Zeus or Quetzalcoatl or kanaloa.

    And I think I’ll keep my keys. It’s Sunday, and I think I might have to not go to church. ???

  • Take a deep breath here,EdVitagliano…I’ve had the pleasure to engage with Ben on a number of occasions on this sight,and while we both come from different perspectives on these matters (I’m a Christian theist, he isn’t), I have no problem admitting that Ben has always stood by his convictions, and I respect that. One thing is for sure, I myself have found him to be honest, and your claim that he twisted Scriptures is, frankly, a bald-faced lie. He quoted what the Gospel writers recorded Our Savior as saying verbatim, and he(Ben) most emphatically DID NOT twist ANYTHING. However, there’s no doubt that YOUR cutesy, sad eiesegis put the exact spin on the Scripture that YOU intended; subsequently, YOU wound up making a fool of yourself and making The Savior a liar in the process.Shame on you,sir!! SHAME! People like you and that individual who had the vile gall to compare Moore’s actions to the interaction between Joseph and Mary…well, all I can say to that is to trot out Lincoln’s famous adage once again: “It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt”…Mull and reflect, EdVitagliano, and educate yourself,sir. PEACE IN CHRIST TO YOU. (You too,Ben! ?)
    .

  • Not all, but a number of them – including Father Paul Shanley, the homosexual predator who was one of the founding members of the North American Man-Boy Love Association (NAMBLA).

  • Obviously we disagree on the meaning of “one flesh”. Yours is the first comment I’ve ever seen interpreting the phrase in such a limited and literal sense. Your understanding, in fact, is at odds with related Pauline teaching in Ephesians 5:28-33 and 1 Corinthians 6:15-20, which provide doctrinal context for 1 Corinthians 6:16’s reference to “one flesh”. Sorry, but your literalist application does not “cut the mustard” as the phrase has been interpreted by various traditions within the one and only Christian faith. If there’s any “blathering”, I must conclude it’s from you.

    I should add that a fellow blogger, Mr. Lombardo, has upvoted your comment. Although he claims to be quite “orthodox” in his Catholic belief, I’ve found that he has trouble comprehending matters that require education beyond parochial school. I’m not surprised by his agreement with you — even though his “up” vote effectively contradicts official Catholic teaching on the meaning of “one flesh”.

  • Jesus was murdered for being an openly gay man by people like you. I would slap you across your face after I spit on it. Bigot. Hypocrite. Get lost pig.

  • Gay people have figured out how to reproduce genius . Not only that but ours would be planned out and cherished. You are an ignorant pos.

  • So you agree, Lisa Strom, to this:

    According to Daniel Fincke, an atheist himself (cf. “Why I Criticize My Fellow Atheists”, Camels with Hammers, June 17, 2013):

    (1) “They [atheists] give little impression they are interested in the kinds of ongoing introspection and self-suspicion that are invaluable to personal growth.”

    (2) “Out of some animus … prejudice or malice”, they “have gotten into this movement to indulge in their feelings of superiority to those they pitilessly disparage as ‘stupid’ or wicked. … They are just in this to throw rocks at the ‘retards’. I have no sympathies with such people and am ashamed that they’re associated with me.”

    (3) To make things worse, atheists don’t “criticize [their] ‘own’ side … acknowledg[ing] when and where [they]’re wrong”, because they’re just “ethically lazy or self-righteously self-satisfied.”

    (4) When “atheists … shar[ing] many of my core intellectual and moral values … are in violation of those values”, such “hypocrites … make all atheists, including me, look bad and set back our cause.”

  • Your choice to exercise your rights does not include trampling over someone else without consequences. You have a one track mind.

  • Yo Eddie-boy,

    Hypocritical Evangelicals (sorry for the redundancy) talk about forgiveness.

    Did you and your ilk forgive Bill Clinton?

    Thought so.

    What sanctimonious pieces of krap you fake Christians are

  • LOL. We know too much about you, Sandi.

    Now get back to work on that beard growing or you’ll never steal Windy Edward away from Jimmy Shortbeard!

  • LOL. Sandi, stop wasting time on useless prayer and GET BACK TO WORK ON THAT PUNY BEARD. Windy Edward will not be impressed and Jimmie Shortbeard is winning over you!

  • Not sure if this is your first confrontation with spuddie. Word of advice….ignore him. He/she is completely irrational and incapable of self-inspection. Don’t waste 10 seconds on him/her.
    Watch how he/she will come back and call me all kinds of names.

  • Well, if the biblical Rapture takes place, followed by the very quick arrival of the biblical Anti-Christ, you MIGHT actually see your last sentence come true.

    But dollars to doughnuts, you sure won’t feel like dancing when THAT day gets here!!

  • I think you just answered the question there. Funny how you aren’t willing to just come out and say, “Yes, I voted for him.”

  • I don’t hate Christians. I believe the accusers because Moore has given the shadiest non-denial denials one could give in this situation.

  • My interpretation is not at odds with the two passages you cite. In fact, they prove my point. Why would Paul in Ephesians 5:29 argue that no man hates his own flesh? It’s because husband and wife have become one flesh. I understand the metaphorical element here, but that does not eliminate the sexual component in becoming one flesh. (This is also why no Christian should support same sex marriage, because you would be arguing that it would be just as possible for God to have chosen two MEN as the symbol of Christ and the church. Sodomy! This is blasphemy!) You also completely ignore Paul’s argument in 1 Corinthians 6, where it states plainly that a man who has sex with a prostitute has become one flesh with her. How else do you take that except as a literal act of sexual joining?

    By the way, if becoming one flesh is not focusing on the sexual act, then why is fornication a sin? I’d like to hear your explanation for this prohibition IF sex does not join a man and a woman into one flesh.

  • McConnell has called for Moore to step aside. It sounds like the GOP estab is more worried about losing a safe seat to the Democrats than they are confident or even happy about the prospect of an anti-SSM senator.

  • He amended that this afternoon to “Moore must go.” They are worried about that seat. As worried as I was 13 months ago reading Nate Silver’s daily reports about Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania..

  • Crackpot fiend. You need therapy for being delusional and thinking everyone else should be as crazy as you are.

  • “Conservative Christian supporters of Roy Moore are defending the U.S. Senate candidate” because in too many cases their “religious piety” is just another tool…to gain societal/political power, to subjugate “others” and to bring glory to themselves. they are religiously arrogant, fake in their devotion to the true meaning of their faith, and using it as a reason to feel superior to, better than and/or judgemental of non-religious people. they’re willing to sell their souls AND the lives of these women in the process.

  • have you given this same benefit of the doubt equally to everyone who has been accused of but not proven guilty of sexual misconduct? or just those who fit your acceptable political/religious/ideological profile?

  • I don’t know if you’re just trolling or not, but I’ll say this: Of course, sometimes I’m like everyone else and jump to conclusions based on pre-conceived ideas. I’ll admit that I’m (sometimes) suspicious of people I might not agree with on a host of issues. Don’t you? Doesn’t everyone? HOWEVER, I try not to EVER publicly judge someone without letting them have their say. On the flip side, Christians and conservatives do plenty of bad things, so I don’t excuse them just because we might agree on certain things, either. That seems fair – and honest.

  • What it all boils down to is Christ’s love for the Church, his Body. As for 1 Cor 6:16, it means that one who has intercourse with a prostitute is defiling his body, a temple of the Holy Spirit. The passage must be interpreted within the context of v. 15 and vv. 17 – 20. As the U.S. Catholic bishops’ commentary notes, “The application of the text to union with a prostitute is jarring, for such a union is a parody, an antitype of marriage, which does conflict with Christ’s claim over us. This explains the horror expressed in 15b [translated, inter alia, as “Of course not!” and “Never!”].

    Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience, but his condemnation was regarded for at least a millennium, if not longer, as orthodox doctrine by mainstream Christianity, i.e., Catholicism and Orthodoxy. The Reformation would see the manifestation of different interpretations of Jesus’ teaching on divorce and remarriage among people who rejected Catholicism. Nonetheless, Christians believe — regardless of interpretation — that Jesus was speaking as Son of God and teaching what God intended of marriage, i.e., a permanent union between husband and wife. The phrase “one flesh” encompasses the whole of marriage and was not construed by Jesus or followers as merely the act of sexual intercourse creating a “marriage” for the time being.

    Regarding fornication, 1 Corinthians 6:9 is relevant. In it, Paul asserts that “wrongdoers” will not inherit the kingdom of God. Various translations use, inter alia, “fornicators” and “sexually immoral”. Jesus himself, in Mark 7:21 – 22, condemns — depending on translation — “fornication” or “unchastity” or “sexual immorality”. He also, of course, condemns adultery. Ditto at Matthew 15:19.

    Of course, if you do not accept mainstream Christian moral doctrine about sexual intercourse, then you are free to do as you wish. Or are you (free)?

  • Anthropologists witnessed an unusual behavior among Plains Indians in which a warrior would do everything opposite from what he was expected to do, like ride into battle on his horse facing backward. They carried out that reverse behavior into his everyday life, even to the extent of behaving like a woman. Thus they were called a “Contrary”. So now “Christians” in order to accept the deviant behavior of Republican office holders and candidates, in a show of strength to maintain a voting party majority to forward the Christian agenda are willing to become “Contraries” to Christianity. They are willing to accept a predator who would prey upon their children, when they would normally reject him as being “UnChristian.” But as long as he helps them achieve a goal like the reversal Roe v Wade, he’s their man!!!

  • How about that- another victim comes forward. A woman reveals that ‘Ol Roy tried to rape her behind the restaurant where she worked as a sixteen year old. Still gonna give him the benefit of the doubt, Fundies? Still gonna make excuses for this serial predator? Turns out, he was also banned from the local shopping mall because of his habit of trolling high school girls- apparently, it was an open secret in the town at the time that he chased teenaged tail. But being a powerful local D.A. and an up and coming star in the local fundamentalist and GOP circles, he was protected by the good old boy network- the same network that seeks to protect him right up to today. The one thing the good old boys neglected to consider though, that protection only works on a local level- he was a big fish in a small, backwater pond. Once he entered the big leagues by running in a national race, that aura of invincibility melted away and he was exposed as the sicko deviant pervert that he is. And yet the good old boys, the morally corrupt local pastors, the fixer politicians, and the Bannon led alt right media still want to make him the victim, not the poor girls he scarred for life. If you are here still trying to defend him, you are part of the problem- part of the sickness.

  • it is not too late for you until His return. Matthew 25:31–46: “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

  • So did you vote for Hillary, knowing that she persecuted women who accused Bill Clinton of rape, sexual harassment, etc., also calling the accusations “a vast right-wing conspiracy”? Don’t you mind that Bill and Hillary have made thousands of dollars giving speeches to his admirers in spite of his actions.

  • Ben,

    John 8:1-11King James Version (KJV)

    8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

    2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

    3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

    4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

    6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

    7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

    9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

    11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

    King James Version (KJV)

  • So adultery is really ok? Or just that adultery committed because you have remarried after a divorce is OK. Or is it just that new testament morality is only for gay people. Heterosexuals need not be inconvenienced too much.
    Jesus said NO DIVORCE: you remain married to your spouse until death. That’s clear. Jesus also said that NO MARRIAGE AFTER DIVORCE, unless the divorce was because of adultery. MARRIAGE AFTER DIVORCE IS ADULTERY. He said so. Having sex with your new wife must be considered adultery as well. Remaining married to her is remaining in a state of adultery. It’s certainly not repentance for your sin,. which lasts as long as your marriage does.
    But of course, I’/m not a moral relativist, because I am not a Christian of that sort.

  • You obviously have your own right wing version of reality.
    She persecuted these women. So goes the right wing claim. she accepted money for speeches. So has every other politician. There is nothing either illegal or immoral about it.

  • “you are part of the problem- part of the sickness.”
    but only in a wholesome, family values sort of a way. Moorons in talibama.

  • Given that Moore has already raped many legal statutes, I am not surprised he may have committed actual statutory rape.

  • Given the number of verified complaints…is it not at least telling that Moore could have more than likely engaged in this act? Is the woman lying? If so, why?

  • Why would we need to look to an ancient book of religious claims for such precepts? We can figure them out without need of such things.

  • Jesus’ opinion is noted. He’s dead and not a lawmaker. If he has a problem with modern divorce, he is welcome to show up and have a press conference.

  • I cannot speak for all atheists, I am always interested to discuss these issues with any religious person.

  • An interesting narrative…it’s fascinating to see what and how ancient believed in certain things 🙂

  • Ben…if you are against re-marriage and you think divorce is wrong…then..don;t get a divorce. Don;t worry about what others do. You have your opinion, they have theirs. Problem solved.

  • Actually, I’m neither against divorce nor against remarriage. I am against christianist hypocrisy on the subject of sexual morality, and in fact, on the subject of morality in general. The problem is

    “do as I say, but not as I do.”

    “Obey god’s law, but don’t expect me to.”

    Or in Moore’s case…

    “Evil gays. Evil gays. Evil gays. Did you call me a pedophile? That’s such a big word for such a little girl.”

  • He spent his life with 12 other men, was discriminated against and killed for being himself, he was single and he did not sleep with the prostitute. Where’s the proof otherwise? The naysayers have nothing. Oh let me be clearer. They will now declare him sexless to bolster their endless hollow outlook on life both here and beyond. Fundamentalists are moronic. Jesus was a gay man. All evidence points to that.

  • The problem is that there has not been any proof, only allegations… So we are saying that all it takes is for someone to bring an accusation? Well then the left will be happy to hear this. Be ready for the onslaught of attacks…Guilty until proven innocent

  • “he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Jesus.
    Being lied about myself in the working place, I understand why those with evil minds would want to lie about Moore.

  • You feel pretty free to be so anonymous and say such hateful things. I feel deeply sorry for you. May you seek the Lord and know what true joy is.

  • You feel this and you feel that. What you feel is your own ego. Pop your bubble elsewhere creep and keep your warped delusions to yourself. You are blasphemous filth for defending a man going after teenage girls. Pig. You don’t even think from your own mind. Fool.

  • Wrong. Fundamentalists tell others to think the way they do. Those in opposition think for themselves and tell them to piss off

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