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Senate narrowly approves Brownback for religious freedom job

Gov. Sam Brownback reacted Wednesday afternoon, Jan. 24, 2018, to the news that his nomination to become ambassador-at-large for international religious freedom advanced Wednesday on a tied procedural vote broken by Vice President Mike Pence. Brownback had just finished presiding over the State Finance Council, which voted to approve a $362 million rebuild of Lansing Correctional Facility. (AP Photo, Topeka Capital-Journal, Thad Allton)

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Republican-led Senate narrowly approved Sam Brownback’s bid to be U.S. ambassador for international religious freedom, setting the stage for him to resign the governorship in Kansas after seven contentious years in office.

With two Republican senators absent, Vice President Mike Pence traveled to Capitol Hill to cast the tie-breaking vote Wednesday (Jan. 24) to confirm Brownback, a favorite of Christian conservatives for his views on same-sex marriage and abortion. The vote was along party lines, 50-49, underscoring the narrow margin Republicans hold. Pence’s vote also was needed earlier in the day to get Brownback’s nomination over a procedural hurdle.

Fellow Republican Lt. Gov. Jeff Colyer will be elevated to governor in Kansas once Brownback submits his resignation. That could come as early as next week.

“I’m glad to have the vice president in my corner,” Brownback told reporters after a meeting with Kansas legislative leaders at the Statehouse in Topeka. He added later: “I’m happy. It’s a critical job. I’m excited about being able to do it.”

Brownback served in the U.S. Senate before becoming governor in January 2011. He made Kansas an economic laboratory for the nation by aggressively cutting taxes, arguing that they would provide “a shot of adrenaline to the heart” of the state’s economy.

But persistent budget problems followed, along with court mandates to boost spending on public schools. Kansas became an example even for conservatives of how not to do trickle-down economics. Voters turned on his legislative allies in 2016, and bipartisan majorities rolled back most of the cuts last year over Brownback’s veto.

President Trump’s selection of Brownback for the State Department post had come under fire from Senate Democrats and LGBT rights groups. During his confirmation hearing last year, Brownback declined to unequivocally declare there is no situation that would allow a country to cite religious freedom as the basis for criminally prosecuting LGBT people.

Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., said Wednesday that he was concerned Brownback would focus solely on protecting Christian minorities.

“I firmly believe that anyone seeking to represent the United States of America must actively champion the right of all people to worship freely and without fear,” Menendez said.

The advocacy group GLAAD said in a statement that Brownback’s “distortion of ‘religious freedom’ threatens LGBTQ people both at home and abroad.”

Trump announced he’d picked Brownback for the religious freedom post in July, and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee held his confirmation hearing in early October. But the Senate left town for the year without acting on his nomination. The White House resubmitted the nomination earlier this month.

Brownback also would leave a Kansas legacy of far tougher restrictions on abortion and fewer limits on gun owners than when he won the first of his two terms in 2010.

He also rejected expanding the Medicaid health program for the poor in line with former President Obama’s signature health care law even as several other Republican governors went ahead.

Brownback was an early advocate of U.S. action to stop genocide in Sudan’s Darfur region, and he visited Congo and Rwanda to decry humanitarian crises and call for better coordination in foreign aid programs.

(Associated Press writer John Hanna in Topeka, Kan., contributed to this report.)

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Richard Lardner

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  • ““I’m glad to have the vice president in my corner,” If you are truly a Christian, you have Christ in your corner

  • “The advocacy group GLAAD said in a statement that Brownback’s “distortion of ‘religious freedom’ threatens LGBTQ people both at home and abroad.”
    They should be threatened. If he is following Christ, they will learn that they have been lying to homosexuals all these years, and people may see them for who they really are. Homosexuality is a sin.

  • Sandi Luckins, you lecherous old cougar, after the deep physical relationship that you’ve boasted about having repeatedly with Shawnie5 you are admitting your own sin.

    You SINNER!

  • Honestly? For those folks who really REALLY care about the religious freedom situation across diverse nations, religions and minorities, this is a huge win.

    Nobody else was even a serious alternative. Sam Brownback has already proved he cares for persecuted religious minorities, the hopeless people that other folks don’t have time for.

    Assorted Activists & Liberals! You tried your best to get your petty revenge on him, yes? (Merely for defending the overwhelming consensus of Kansas voters on marriage and family issues for as long as possible.) You tried to dump Brownback in the river like the Mafia on steroids. But your political crime didn’t pay!!!!

  • It’s wingnut welfare for a man run out of office for incompetence. A joke position by someone who doesn’t take it seriously. Akin to Saudi Arabia’s role on the UN Human Rights Commission.

    “Brownback has already proved he cares for persecuted religious minorities”

    Citation please?

  • The Brownback experiment – “What happens when the governor is a religious and political Neanderthal?”

    The Neanderthal’s resignation will be good news for Kansas.

  • I am 1000% sure it’s not the role of any government to attack others in the name of Jesus, sinners or not.

  • Sam Brownback wants to be the US ambassador for international freedom but everyone thinks he’s lacking. So he leaves Kansas and goes to the land of…DC…and gets just what he needs, a vote. Somebody’s going to get their head stuck in a honey jar any day now.

  • Michael Coren, “Epiphany: A Christian’s Change of Heart and Mind Over Same-Sex Marriage”(Toronto: Signal, 2016):

    “I sometimes think that if someone who had absolutely no familiarity with the Bible was suddenly exposed to the Christian world and its denizens, they would assume that large parts or even the bulk of the Old and New Testaments dealt with sex, homosexuality, abortion, and in the case of some Christians, the merits of gun ownership and capitalism, the evils of vaccination, environmental activism, and liberalism. Try as I might I find very little in scripture about owning guns and nothing at all about medical inoculations. Flippancy aside, there’s actually not much more in the Bible about homosexuality than there is about giving children an injection so that they don’t die of routine diseases. It is hardly ever mentioned at all. In fact there are probably five or six mentions of what can be loosely be described as same-sex relationships and attractions in the entire Bible and the most famous or infamous one, of course, is always mentioned whenever this issue is discussed in Christian circles. Homosexuality is in Biblical terms largely a non-issue and has been awarded a significance far beyond its status” (p. 50).

    The term “homosexual” or “homosexuality” never appears even once anywhere in the bible. These terms could not have appeared in the bible, because the word was coined only in the latter half of the 19th century. The authors of the biblical text had no interest in what dominates the thinking of a certain brand of “Christians” today.

    You are projecting into the biblical texts your own fixation. As you do so, you blithely ignore what actually is there: the command to love above all, as the fulfillment of the whole law; and the command not to bear false witness against your neighbor.

    People are rightly walking away in droves from your bloodthirsty, demonic misrepresentation of Christianity, which has nothing at all to do with Jesus and his good news.

  • Finally landed that job. The job he created out of whole cloth…for no discernible reason except to meddle.

  • I would think that 6 reminders to stay away from homosexuality would have been sufficient for some people and for them to understand they follow an idol, not Christ. Homosexuality is a sin. You can present as many worldly opinions as you choose, it will not change that Christ condemned homosexuality.

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

    Christ did not need the term “homosexual” He was very clear about the sin without it.

    Colossians 2:8English Standard Version (ESV)
    8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.”
    Read a Bible and you’ll get the truth there – the truth of what Christ expects of us.

  • Of course not, he’s dead.

    But his followers like you and Mr. Brownback do.

    Am I speaking with Jesus? Is there anyone else in your head too?

  • If you truly believed that doing the will of the majority of voters was right/moral/honourable you’d be on the streets demanding that Hilary take her rightful place in the White House.

  • Might be a religious right favourite but hardly a follower of Jesus. Of course that fits in with the religious right.

  • He makes token efforts with human trafficking and used his official power to attack persecuted minorities on behalf of the majority religion.

    I will grant you the Darfur part. That was actually pretty bipartisan.

    Still following the trend of the Trump Administration of failing upward. A successful governor would be looking at higher office. Its telling that Trump will fill what amounts to a token ceremonial ambassadorship position to curry favor with Bible Thumpers, but he still hasn’t picked useful ones needed by the State Department. South Korea still doesn’t have an ambassador and we are actually kinda involved with events there.

  • You can read anything you wish into these texts that do not even contain a word that absolutely obsesses you.

    You can put any words you wish into the mouth of Christ, claiming that the fact that he did not speak of what obsesses you means he was deeply concerned with it — an astonishingly silly claim.

    But please understand: in doing all of this, you forfeit the right to say that you love and understand the bible and want to be faithful to what it says.

    And in doing all of this, you raise some . . . interesting . . . questions about why you are personally so obsessed with this topic, with attacking and hating people different from yourself. When God and the sacred scriptures you twist to say what they do not say at all don’t share that obsession at all . . . .

    You don’t own Christianity. And the rest of us who are Christians, and who do not share your obsession and hatred, have a right to tell you that and to contest your claim to own the bible, Christ, and Christianity.

  • Again, William, if you read them, you will understand.
    Again, William, Christ is God. He is the Word of the Bible.
    Again, William, one does not try to help people they hate to have a relationship with Jesus.
    Again William, you do not need to share my beliefs, just listen to Christ. He taught that homosexuality is a sin that will keep people out of the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

    26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.”
    That is what keeps homosexuals out of the Kingdom of Heaven;

  • You repeat “The term ‘homosexual’ or ‘homosexuality’ never appears even once anywhere in the bible” or the equivalent fairly often as though it is meaningful.

    The rabbis and the early fathers all knew and taught that same sex relations were an abomination, associated like prostitution, incest, and other forbidden sexual activities with pagans and the worship of strange gods.

    It really was not until the 20th century and the likes of Magnus Hirschfeld and Sigmund Freud, both lapsed Jews, that these sorts of activities gained any proponents as more than debauched.

    Folks who are really serious about trying to endorse any of them find it a lot easier to dump their religion and head for paganism or atheism since it avoid the problem of trying to square the circle, which seems to be what you’re trying to do.

  • I’m so sorry you find yourself obsessed in this way, a way that does not in any way reflect Christ’s concerns. It must be a very uncomfortable place to live, consumed with sanctimonious “concern” about others’ “sins” — but not your own. An especially unhappy place to be as the moral arc of history proves Christians fighting for their “right “ to hat LGBTQ folks just as wrong as Christians who fought to uphold slavery and then segregation were in the past.

    I’ll keep you in my thoughts.

  • If you need to attack me, it is because you cannot counter my assertions, William.
    So we are finished with your nonsense then.
    Thank you

  • As you say, to the extent that any patristic theologians even paid any attention to this moral question—and there is little in their writings to show that it obsessed them as it does some Christians today—they often followed rabbinical precedent in associating it with idolatry—a point you yourself make.

    Patristic sources (Augustine) taught that every act of intercourse reflected concupiscence due to original sin. Simply because a patristic authority taught this, are we obliged to parrot that idea today? Or to hold with Augustine that nocturnal seminal omissions are sinful?

    Medieval theologians like Aquinas taught that masturbation is a graver sin than rape, and that women are passive receptacles for the homunculus in the act of intercourse—and that a female child is a mistake, a misbegotten male.

    Because a classical theologian held such ideas, are we obliged to parrot them now?

    Until halfway through Christian history, all theologians held that usury is seriously sinful. Then the church changed its mind.

    What does this tell us about our obligation to parrot everything classical theologians have said in the past?

    For nearly two millennia, the church blessed slavery.

    Is everything that has been taught automatically correct simply because it has been taught?

    Thank you for the kind invitation to leave Christianity behind, but I’ll take a pass on it. You do not own Christianity.

    I’ll keep standing with the MAJORITY of U.S Christians who support gay people and same-sex marriage.

  • Both Brownback and Pence scorn religious liberty and women’s rights of conscience. Well, at least Brownback will be leaving Kansas.

  • The church has always condemned exploitation, whether it is of workers who work for wages or something called a “slave”. Read St. Paul.

    The church teaches that usury is sinful. With the rise of fiat money and inflation, it had to make a distinction between real value and the time value of money. The teaching itself hasn’t changed.

    Aquinas was a theologian. He, like you, had opinions. Some of his opinions were accepted by his Church, others were not. His track record of acceptance of his teaching as a theologian in was considerably higher than your track record in your church.

    If the MAJORITY of U.S Christians jumped off a bridge, would YOU jump off a bridge?

    You don’t have to answer that, you’ve already made it clear.

    Btw, the assertion that “the MAJORITY of U.S Christians who support … same-sex marriage” is dubious.

  • Thank you for confirming that the church has declared its previous postions wrong about the moral issues of slavery and usury, José.

    You’re absolutely right about that.

    And you can doubt the empirical evidence that a majority of U.S. Christians support same-sex marriage all you wish. That — and jumping off a bridge — will not change that fact.

    The moral mind of people of faith has changed over the centuries, as it became apparently that claiming ownership of human beings and treating them as chattel property was deeply immoral. The church once blessed wars that were called “holy,” blessed pogroms and the ghettoization of the Jewish people, incited hatred of Islamic people, had many bishops, priests, and nuns who owned slaves (as with the religious community that founded my own alma mater on the basis of slave labor), taught that women were evil daughters of Eve, and so on.

    Fortunately, the church has the capacity to repent of its sinfulness and of the abusive, inhumane way it has often treated those on the margins of society. It can do nothing but that and claim to follow Jesus.

    The same will happen one day with regard to the hateful treatment of LGBTQ human beings at this point in time by some people calling themsevels “Christians.”

  • Brownback’s role has little to do with authentic religious freedom. He just has that title because “Grand Inquisitor” was a tougher sell for confirmation.

  • As a Kansan, I’ll admit our state has its moments of sublime loopiness. But on the whole, we’re nice people and quite glad to be rid of Sam Brownback.

    All I can say is, thank God for Arizona. As long as it’s around, we don’t have to worry about being the most reactionary state in the union.

  • Talking about successful governors looking at higher office, I cannot help noticing the irony here. Both Mike Pence and Sam Brownback took office with a lot of buzz about them being future presidential material. It did not take long for things to turn sour in both Indiana and Kansas, due to the mismanagement of Pence and Brownback. The only thing that saved Pence’s career was being named Trump’s vp running mate, and the only thing saving Brownback is Pence’s vote to name him to this ambassadorship.

  • As an alternative to the White House, would you be okay with me going in the streets demanding that Hillary take her rightful place in the Big House?

  • When has the religious right ever followed the foundation of true Christianity.. loving neighbour as self. Their motives are purely political and use God to hustify their actions, refusing thmselves to change and accept His ways, just like the left.

  • Pence is a young-earth creationist, who believes that the earth is only 6,000 years old, that dinosaurs coexisted with humans, that the fable of Noah’s Flood is a real story, that evolution is pronounced “evilution”, and that women were only put on this earth to breed.

  • I’m assuming “Big House” is an alternative way of saying prison.

    As I understand the situation you are entitled to exercise free speech.

    I also understand that those who observed your such exercise would be equally entitled to air their opinions about your mental acuity.

    Deflection over – care to address your apparent hypocrisy?

  • Religious bigots like Brownback are the reason evangelicals will continue to sell their souls to the devil and support a serial sexual predator like Trump even if all his policies end up wrecking the nation as long as they get their bigots in power.

  • As a matter of fact the Church hasn’t declared its previous positions wrong about the moral issues of slavery and usury.

    And stating that I said that it did indicates the source of your problem: reading comprehension.

    St. Paul said that claiming ownership of human beings and treating them as chattel property was deeply immoral. That was a pretty brief period of change in the moral mind of people of faith.

    The Church has always taught that the loaner is entitled to be placed in the same position as he was before making the loan. That does not preclude interest; in fact in an inflating modern economy it demands it. We no longer live in a barter economy and money is no longer only in precious metals.

    Yes, I understand the modern gloss that the church can do 180 degree turns. No, I’ve never read a convincing description of it actually doing that.

    In fact, except if you’re a member of the LDS, taken seriously your argument destroys any claim of authority by the church. The LDS at least provides a mechanism for new revelation and thus 180 degree turns.

    People in the church once, and still do, a lot of awful things. Some of them actually engaged in same sex relations!

  • “As a matter of fact the Church hasn’t declared its previous positions wrong about the moral issues of slavery and usury.”

    That’s simply untrue — as was your statement questioning the empirical facts showing a majority of U.S. Christians supporting same-sex marriage.

    On what basis can people have a meaningful conversation when one dialogue partner follows the Fox News strategy of pretending that what is real is unreal, and what is true is false, and what is factual is not factual?

    What do the world’s major religious traditions have to say about bearing false witness in this way?

    This is a tactic of someone who knows his moral argument is without sound foundations and is losing ground as people recognize that. The church most certainly did previously bless both usury and slavery, and most certainly did change its moral mind about both moral issues.

    On what ground do you wish to claim that on this particular moral issue the church cannot ever change its moral mind — when a majority of Christians in many places in the world have made that turn already, and droves of younger Christians are leaving the churches due to the intransigence of some churches about this moral issue?

    What makes you and your position right — automatically right — when the moral thinking of the Christian church has developed in very many areas for centuries, and stances the church once took with certainty were abandoned by the church as its understanding of moral issues, of the scriptures, and its tradition precipitated such change?

  • Thanks, sandi. Your silence in response to my question speaks loudly and clearly.

    You don’t represent a “we” at all, and as anyone surveying this thread and the responses we who post here have made to you can easily see, you do not speak for all of us by a long shot.

    Your “we” and your statement that I speak nonsense (an astonishing statement, considering you are its source!) are bullying tactics, an attempt to make me feel unwelcome and ridiculed in a space of which you imagine you have ownership. But you don’t own this discussion space, and you don’t own the title “Christian.” A majority of U.S. Christians reject your hateful rhetoric about LGBTQ human beings.

    Sorry, but I don’t bully easily. Every bully I’ve ever met is cowardly, weak, convinced that he/she can strike fear in others when he/she commands no respect at all for anyone with eyes open to see the bully’s character.

    These tactics should be beneath anyone claiming, as you repeatedly do, to be a mouthpiece for Christ. They won’t work with me.

  • I don’t. But you need to be asking why it was so important for those activists to get all petty and hateful over a simple ambassador post that doesn’t affect their same-sex agenda and activism efforts. No excuse there.

  • That’s not what I asked. As you choose to call Noah’s Flood questionable, are you calling the Jewish liars?

  • As a matter of fact the Church hasn’t declared its previous positions wrong about the moral issues of slavery and usury.

    Or did Paul say “beat your slaves and treat them as chattel”?

    Yes, times have changed and the same truth has to applied to new conditions.

    I am fairly sure that prior to the early 20th century municipal bonds – which pay interest – were not considered by the Schoolmen.

    You’re in a church that opposes what you support as disordered and immoral. And it says it never changes a teaching, yours being a minority opinion supported by folks with your agenda, or in favor of birth control, or with some other axe to grind.

    I can understand your tapdance.

    It is difficult to let go of a losing proposition that entails dropping the religion that Nana or Oma imparted at her knee.

    However, its opposition is not going to change, and you’d be much better off facing that head-on than pretending otherwise.

  • LOL Sandi Luckins, you lecherous old cougar, we are calling you a despicable bigot, because you are one.

  • The other interrogator seems to be doing the job just fine. I’ll speak up if I find something I can add.

    I will say that I agree that your position that the church has changed its teaching on slavery and usury is extremely unconvincing.

    Both “slavery” and “usury” are equivocal terms which must be examined in context since each can be interpreted many ways. For example, slavery can be anything from a manservant with rights to Uncle Tom under Simon Legree.

    One size does not fit all.

  • Honey, there was no global flood. There is no geologic evidence whatsoever for a worldwide flood. The fable of Noah’s Flood and ark are derived from earlier Sumerian myths in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

    This is common knowledge.

    Your “question” is bizarre, dear.

  • So you are calling the Jewish people liars then…..hmmmm. The whole nation has lied for 3-how many thousand years, but you come along, and you are right. Please don’t make me laugh.

  • Actually I think Arizona and Kansas are much more progressive than Alabama, Arkansas, West Virginia, and Idaho.

  • Sweetie, I’m calling you a certified fruitcake.

    This nation hasn’t existed for 3 thousand years, sweetie. Perhaps you can rewrite your little rant into a more coherent sentence.

    The earth, my dear, is 4.6 billion years old–we know this through radioisotopic dating methods. Dinosaurs did not coexist with humans–we missed each other by 65 million years. There was no global flood–honey, there isn’t enough water on earth to cover the Himalaya Mountains. This isn’t information just from me, honey–this is basic geoscience.

    Put down the buybull, and pick up a science book.

  • While we’re at it, apparently your fave Hillary covered up for one of those #MeToo villains in her circle. (I’m talking about some guy other than Slick Willie.)
    You sure you still wanna do free sales-pitches for her?

  • Straw man – yet again.

    You pretend something which is untrue and then beat your puny mental chest like a wannabe Tarzan in the hope that no-one will notice your fraud.

    Hilary is my fave? – no, and nothing I wrote justifies the silliness of your claim.

    Sales-pitch for her? – no – merely using the lady to highlight your sanctimonious hypocrisy.

    If she behaved as is claimed it was a major error of judgement – but is hardly comparable with the recorded claims of the (delusional?) p***y-grabber and ogler of teenage girls that a minority of knowingly Americans voted for.

  • Nope. Young Earth Creationism (Ignoring science in favor of Biblical literalism) is a modern idea. Nor does it mean the Earth is really flat, nor are bats considered birds. 🙂

  • It’s pretty sad when you need to denigrate someone. It is a sign that you cannot overcome their comment though. So thank you for the blessing. (edit)
    Are you a denier of the Holocaust also?

  • LOL, Sandi Luckins, you disgusting, lecherous old cougar, that’s one heck of an ironic post from you there. You’ve spent most of your time here denigrating others with your bigotry. Wake up and smell the coffee; the opposition to you and others of your evil ilk is growing, and people are leaving behind your foolish, outdated, bigoted beliefs in droves.

  • ‘Fraid so. Seems to have just one response to any request for reason.

    Can’t do fact-based reason – so thinks of something irrelevant in the hope of stirring up enough mud to hide his ignorance.

  • It’s always amusing when people lecture non-christians with biblical quotes as though they are facts.

    We no more consider the Wholly Babble a book of facts than you consider the Mahabharata, the Tale of Beowulf, or the Odyssey to be factual.

  • You mean all non Christians should fear retribution and physical harm from all self professed Christians, right? I mean, it’s in all the translations of your book of rules to harm non-believers. Maybe not much sanctioned physical harm as in the not too distant past but harm all the same.

  • Scientifically, it is probable that the earth is 4.54 billion years old based on evidence from radiometric age-dating of meteorite material and the radiometric ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples. The terrestrial samples were ancient Archaean lead ores of galena.

    It is, however, not certain and may be revised upward or downward in the future as additional knowledge and measurement methodology becomes available.

    Previous estimates in the 20th century put the age at around 1.6 billion years.

  • I would be interested in citations supporting “it’s in all the translations of your book of rules to harm non-believers” for Christians.

  • Start with the Vulgate or Wycliffe and show me where it doesn’t call for the destruction of non believers and sinners.

  • I have no plans on working through the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments, to find your evidence.

    You made the comment, you support it.

  • No. I mean that sinners who draw people into sins – sending them to their death – should be afraid of Christ in the man Navy.

  • Yes it is, but then, when the Christian leaves, there is a profound sadness for what the arrogance of a heathen is keeping them from, and sending themselves to. Blessings to you Sharon

  • If you were sincere, no problem but:
    Matthew 7:6 – English Standard Version
    “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

  • Re: “Previous estimates in the 20th century put the age at around 1.6 billion years.”: Honey, science continually advances. The earth is certainly not going to be downgraded to 6,000 years old.

    There was a young-earth creationist goofball by name of Henry Morris, who wrote a book called “The Genesis Flood” in the early 1960’s. He whined that geologists couldn’t agree on the age of the ocean floor, because one area of basalt would show a date of 100 million years, and another area of ocean floor basalt would have an age of 15 million years old. This was at the dawn of our understanding of sea-floor spreading and plate tectonics. The old goofball Morris never could grasp basic geology and never ceased to shrill that geologists couldn’t agree on the ages of rocks.

    There are people today, who embrace their ignorance just as Henry Morris did–e.g. Mike Pence, our VP, Rick Perry, our Secretary of Energy, and other young-earth creationists that tRump has littered our government with–people who choose to believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that evolution is “evilution”.

    My dear mansplainer, it’s Dr. Sharon Diehl, geochemist/geologist. I have used radioisotopic techniques to date mineral deposits.

  • You’re still just babbling, dear. It’s always amusing when the bible-impaired lecture non-christians with biblical quotes as though they are facts.

  • Sweetie, you should reread your sentences. You never make any sense. Try plain English.

    There are other religious tomes in the world besides the buybull, er, I mean bible. There is the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao-te-ching, the Talmud, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Dasam Granth, the Tripiṭaka, the Book of Mormon, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Quran, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Take your pick.

    Honey, If you believe the bible is true, that’s fine for you. But you can’t shout scripture at the sane among us and demand we recognize fable as fact. And you can’t demand we live by your interpretation of your holy tome, any more than I can demand you live by my interpretation of The Vampire Chronicles.

    May the adoration of Marius be with you, little bible-humper.

  • I believe Sandi was responding to William, who claims Christianity. Not to you.

    Understandable mistake, though.

  • The bible is your weapon of choice to dictate policy and behavior of the innocent, yet you won’t read where it is clearly written to openly discriminate and harm non-believers and sinners. Vulgate and KJV Old Testament.

  • So one has to be into ‘woo woo’ and a religious fanatic in order to comprehend your ramblings? Got it.

  • Honey, I’m a scientist. I’m not into ‘woo woo’.

    You are free to live your life by following ancient laws written in dead languages by ignorant, racist, sexist, superstitious barbarians, who believed everything they couldn’t explain in the world was magical, who thought menstruation was a sin, and didn’t know where the sun went to at night–and others of us will live free from such nonsense.

  • Christ created science honey. It just hasn’t reached a point of His wisdom yet. Keep trying though.

  • Honey, you’re no “christian”. I’ve read your rants about homosexuality being a “sin”, when homosexual behavior is common within the animal kingdom.

  • Re: “Christ created science honey. It just hasn’t reached a point of His wisdom yet.” Now then–here’s a perfect example–this doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

  • Oh come now. NavyLadyBlue is correct. It’s common knowledge the buybull, er, bible, calls for killing non-believers.

    Deuteronomy 17

    If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

    Deuteronomy 13:

    If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death.

  • Honey, if it was 1.6 billion years, and then it was 4.54 billion years, who knows what it will be in 100 years?

    Admittedly it won’t be 6,000 years.

    I’m glad to hear you used radioisotopic techniques to date mineral deposits.

    Lots of undergraduates and grad students do the same.

    Let’s not lapse from science into scientism.

  • “Oh come now” is an argument?

    NavyLadyBlues05: “You mean all non Christians should fear retribution and physical harm from all self professed Christians, right? I mean, it’s in all the translations of your book of rules to harm non-believers.”

    Let’s begin by noting that her allegation is that *Christians* are advised to harm non-believers.

    Deuteronomy tells about Moses advising Israel about the ground rules in the Promised Land to comport with the terms of the contract with Yahweh that the Nation has entered into.

    Deuteronomy 13:1–18 describes Moses issues warnings against apostasy, 1–5 concerns false prophets, a near relative who tempts to apostasy (6–11), and the apostasy of a whole town (12–18). In each case, the penalty is death.

    None of this has to do with Christians, and involves the ground rules in the New Land for a Jewish Nation.

    Deuteronomy 17:2–7 proscribes the sin of idolatry, the seriousness of which is indicated by the consistently prescribed death penalty. In such instances, the judicial goal was not rehabilitation or restitution, but to purge Israel of the abomination of idolatry.

    Again, this is not a law for Christians but is part of the cultic law of Israel in fulfillment of its covenant with Yahweh, which demands the exclusive worship of Yahweh. The penalty by Yahweh for failing to adhere to this condition is the destruction of the nation.

    The well-known Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema Yisrael, the definitive statement of Jewish identity: “Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.” is part of this book as well.

    Unfortunately for NavyLadyBlues05’s allegation, this was directed to Jews only in the land of Israel. Even Jews don’t adhere to it since Israel failed to comply with the conditions of the covenant and the Romans destroyed the nation, toppled the Temple, and dispersed the inhabitants, and so this is now a historical record, although Christians accept the moral content such as the Ten Commandments.

    Helpful Hint: you need to get a copy of the New Testament.

  • I don’t suppose you noted that I personally have never cited the Bible in support of any position that I have taken.

    Your allegation is nonsense and if you were familiar with that book at all you would know that.

  • I’m familiar with it, several types. Thing is though, I’m painfully familiar with those who use it as a tool for dictating public policy at the detriment of the less powerful and the innocent.

  • Re: “directed to Jews only in the land of Israel”: So this omniscient, omnipresent bloodthirsty deity is only present in the middle-east? Got it.

    Numbers 9:11-16: “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.”

    [Translation: god makes all the women miscarry (abort) and makes them infertile and dries up their breast milk so those babies that are born, will die of starvation.]

    Numbers 31:17: Moses telling the following “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.”

    [Translation: here we have the big Mo’ (who is god’s hitman), to off all the infant boys, and the women who might be pregnant (abortion by death).]

    Hosea 13:16: “Samaria shall bear her guilt; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”

    [Translation: here we have god’s wrath by having women getting their fetuses ripped out of their bodies (aborted).]

    Exodus 22:17: You should not let a sorceress live.
    [Translation: an educated woman with self esteem.]

    Deuteronomy 22:20-21: Cut to the chase—kill women who are not virgins.

  • Sweetie, or should I call you “Henry Morris”? The 1.6 billion to 3 billion year old estimated range of dates for the age of the earth was at the dawn of the discovery of radioisotopes and decay series in the early 1900’s.

    Re: “then it was 4.54 billion years”: …and now it’s 4.6 billion years. The range of dates obtained from minerals in meteorites, which are considered to represent accretion material during the formation of the solar system, is from 4.53 to 4.58 billion years.

    Let’s not lapse into religious woo woo.

  • You do understand that the Christians separate from the Jews nearly 2,000 years ago?

    No, you don’t “got it”.

    Thank you for sharing a load of irrelevant non-Christian 2,500 year old twaddle.

    If you happen to run into any Jews wandering in the desert of the Sinai, you’re fully armed.

    The old covenant was between Yahweh and the Jews. You seem to think Moses and the cultic laws are relevant to Christians. Christians can eat pork.

    I take it that you found the New Testament somewhat difficult sledding.

  • I’ll take that as a negative – all you know is how to spell B-i-b-l-e and cast on it b-i-l-e.

    If you actually find a verse or two supporting your original assertion, bring it up.

  • No, cafeteria style verse slinging is the current method of bashing non Christians and atheists. Not going to succumb to those shallow tactics anymore.
    If you lack the ability to accept the fact that your manuscript calls for the conflicting practice of destruction and agape then all you know is how to misspell buy-bull.

  • Still no verses?

    Figures.

    You lack the ability to accept the fact that your assertions require a bit more than your unsupported bald-faced opinion.

  • John 15:6 “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

    2 Chronicles 15:13 “That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.”

    Deuteronomy 13:12–16 “If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the Lord thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.”

    Deuteronomy 13:7-12 “If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods . . . Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God.”

  • Honey, I have no interest in the patriarchal misogynistic Abrahamic religious factions. I left religion long, long ago, when my father asked us kids whether we wanted to spend Sunday fishing in the mountains with him, or go to church with my mother. A resounding FISHING! was heard! Even mother went along with the new plan. Nature is our ‘church’ and source of spirituality…not dusty religious tomes written by power-hungry men.

    Re: “irrelevant non-Christian 2,500 year old twaddle”: Oh…so the Old Testament was written under the auspices of a different middle-east deity? And the New Testament was written under a more benevolent middle-east deity? Or is it one middle-east deity that finally grew out of its bloodthirsty ways? And here I thought you folks adhered to:

    “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

    hey! It’s New Testament!

    Let’s see…Romans is in the new Testament, too, which you claim is only relevant to being a Christian:

    Romans 13: 1-7: “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which god has established.”

    So, I gather you’re a New Testament religious person–?–you’re supposed to follow the laws–the law clearly states that abortion is legal. Are you allowed to try and change laws authorized by ‘god’?

  • John 15:6 – Hell is real, and like the withered branch, in the next life the reprobate will suffer punishment. That is a core Christian belief.

    2 Chronicles 15:13 – Old Testament, events leading up to Israel’s chastisement and the Babylonian exitle. Nothing binding on Christians.

    Deuteronomy 13:7–16 – Old Testament, Moses laying out the rules on entrance to the Promised Land to comply with the covenant (contract) with Yahweh. Not binding on Christians except for the moral component called the Decalogue.

    So, basically you can’t support your accusation.

  • Cupcake, recall that science evolves? You linked to a 1991 USGS page.

    As for the 2013 Scientific American article, it uses an age of the earth as 4.55 billion years–round up, sweetie.

    “As with so many good scientific puzzles, the question of the age of the earth resolves itself on more rigorous examination into distinct components. Do we mean the age of the solar system, or of the earth as a planet within it, or of the earth-moon system, or the time since formation of the earth’s metallic core, or the time since formation of the earliest solid crust?”
    —————————–
    Other sites report a 4.6 billion year age for the accreting solar system and earth based on the ages of meteorites.

    Earth began to form over 4.6 billion years ago from the same cloud of gas (mostly hydrogen and helium) and interstellar dust that formed our sun, the rest of the solar system and even our galaxy.

    http://www.ecology.com/2011/09/10/earths-beginnings-origins-life/
    —————————–
    Perhaps you separate the ages determined for the accreting solar system from the accreting earth.

    Approximately 4.6 billion years ago, the solar system was a cloud of dust and gas known as a solar nebula. Gravity collapsed the material in on itself as it began to spin, forming the sun in the center of the nebula.

    https://www.space.com/19175-how-was-earth-formed.html
    ——————————
    …here is substantial evidence that the Earth and the other bodies of the Solar System are 4.5-4.6 billion years old, and that the Milky Way Galaxy and the Universe are older still…

    The majority of the 70 well-dated meteorites have ages of 4.4-4.6 billion years. These meteorites, which are fragments of asteroids and represent some of the most primitive material in the solar system, have been dated by 5 independent radiometric dating methods.

    https://geomaps.wr.usgs.gov/parks/gtime/ageofearth.html
    ——————————–
    Honey, your rigidity is showing–not only on the role of women in society and what medical care they should be accorded. In addition, you appear to take exception to advances in radioisotopic dating techniques that continually push back the ages of the earth and solar system formation. How silly of you.

  • The value for the age of the Earth in wide use today – 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years – was determined by Tera in 1980, who found a value of 4.54 Ga from a clever analysis of the lead isotopic compositions of four ancient conformable lead deposits.

    A quick look around various websites (e.g., The Geological Society of London, the British Museum, NASA, etc.) indicates that is the current estimate.

  • My “quick look around”, as well as the geology courses I have taken–refer to the age of the solar system and earth as 4.6 billion years.

    Oh, look, this is from a NASA site.

    “The Moon was formed 4.6 billion years ago, along with the Earth and the rest of the solar system.”

    https://history.nasa.gov/EP-177/ch8-1.html

  • So basically anything from the first half of your manuscript doesn’t apply to Christians. Yet clobber verses from this first half are freely tossed about by radicalized Christians to support their demands for total capitulation by non believers. Submit or burn in their hell, blind devotion or pain forever… yada, yada, yada.

  • I have no control over what this or that Christian takes out of context and misuses, anymore than I have control over your mischaracterization of one or more texts.

    Many of them show about the same level of insight into the documents as you’re showing – none.

    At the Council of Jerusalem while the Apostles were still living the Judaizers lost, and the moral component of the Old Testament was accepted and the cultic laws dispensed with since the Christians were in a new contract or covenant.

  • Oh good….you can use the word “evolve”…you no doubt understand evolutionary biology as well as the immense age of the earth, despite being a magical thinker.

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