As the Rev. Joe Harris presides, the results of a vote about the so-called Traditional Plan are displayed during a legislative session of the special session of the General Conference of the United Methodist Church, held in St. Louis on Feb. 25, 2019. The plan would strengthen denominational penalties for LGBTQI clergy and for clergy who perform same-sex weddings. Photo by Paul Jeffrey for United Methodist News Service

United Methodist committee rejects One Church Plan, which would allow LGBT clergy

Supporters of full inclusion for LGBTQ persons in UMC life hold hands in the observer's area at the 2019 United Methodist General Conference in St. Louis, Mo., on Feb. 25, 2019, while waiting for vote totals to be displayed. Photo by Mike DuBose/UMNS

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

ST. LOUIS (RNS) — In a surprise, the plan recommended by the United Methodist Church’s Council of Bishops was rejected Monday (Feb. 25) by the denomination’s decision-making body.

The so-called One Church Plan did not pass out of General Conference’s Legislative Committee to be considered by delegates Tuesday during the plenary session.

But that doesn't mean the proposal is dead, according to supporters.

RELATED: United Methodists vote pensions, ‘Traditional Plan’ as top priorities

Reconciling Ministries Network, a movement advocating for the full inclusion of LGBTQ people in the church, tweeted after the vote that the rejected plan will "almost certainly still come up" as a minority report on Tuesday.

Neil Alexander — co-convener of Uniting Methodists, a group supporting the One Church Plan — confirmed a minority report including the plan has been filed in opposition to the Traditional Plan.

"We are deeply disappointed about the defeat of the OCP and seeking ways to respond to the deep hurt this action causes many LGBTQ people and all who love (them). And we are committed to find ways to make justice and mercy a centerpiece of all of our ministries," Alexander said in an email to Religion News Service. "We have much work to do."

The Rev. Gary Graves, secretary of the General Conference, addresses the media late Feb. 25, 2019, in St. Louis, Mo. RNS photo Emily McFarlan Miller

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

The Rev. Gary Graves, secretary of the General Conference, also confirmed petitions that were not supported by the Legislative Committee could be revived and brought to the floor of the plenary with the support of 20 delegates.

The One Church Plan would allow individual churches and regional annual conferences to decide whether to ordain and marry LGBTQ members. It's one of three plans presented this week to delegates at the special session of the General Conference dedicated to sexuality.

The Rev. Denise Honeycutt of the Virginia Annual Conference had encouraged delegates to support the plan because she said it allows for churches to hold differing beliefs and “together we are stronger.”

“It does not make any of us choose things that are contrary to our own convictions, but it allows us together to be the body of Christ and joyful, passionate disciples of Jesus,” Honeycutt said.

The delegate said she has pastored large and small churches. She has been a missionary to Nigeria and visited United Methodist churches around the world. She never has been in a church where everybody agreed on everything, she said.

“And yet we were able to be church — to love one another and stay together,” she said.

Meantime, Rudolph Merab, a delegate from the Liberia Annual Conference, spoke against the One Church Plan.

RELATED: The ’Splainer: What’s the United Methodist special session all about?

“We keep talking about trying to be united, but, in fact, we continue to talk about being divided,” Merab said. “It is better to be divided by truth than to be united in error.”

As the Rev. Joe Harris presides, the results of a vote about the so-called Traditional Plan are displayed during a legislative session of the special session of the General Conference of the United Methodist Church, held in St. Louis on Feb. 25, 2019. The plan would strengthen denominational penalties for LGBTQI clergy and for clergy who perform same-sex weddings. Photo by Paul Jeffrey for United Methodist News Service

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

Earlier in the day, the Legislative Committee, made up of the same 864 General Conference delegates who will vote on the plans during the plenary, approved for a vote another plan, the Traditional Plan.

The Traditional Plan would strengthen the enforcement of language in the denomination’s rulebook stating that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching” and that “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” cannot be ordained as ministers, appointed to serve or be married in the church.

Nearly 56 percent of delegates had ranked the Traditional Plan a high priority for the General Conference during the first day of deliberations.

RELATED: United Methodists should acknowledge reality that they are no longer united (COMMENTARY)

Monday’s deliberations ended with discussion of the Simple Plan, which would have removed all language about “the practice of homosexuality” from the Book of Discipline. The Simple Plan was voted down but not before an impassioned speech from J.J. Warren, a reserve delegate from the Upper New York Conference.

Warren spoke about being gay and reaching out to other students at his college with a message about the love of Jesus. “They didn’t know God could love them because their churches said God didn’t,” he said.

The Rev. Rebekah Miles, an Arkansas Conference delegate, speaks during the special session of the General Conference of The United Methodist Church, held in St. Louis, Mo., on Feb. 25, 2019. Miles spoke in favor of postponing a discussion of the Traditional Plan, which she opposes. Photo by Paul Jeffrey for United Methodist News Service

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

He said he wanted the United Methodist Church to be a place where all are welcomed and loved.

“That’s the Methodist church that I love and that I want to be a pastor in one day,” Warren said, amid prolonged cheers and applause from observers supporting the full inclusion of LGBT people.

John Lomperis, a delegate from the Indiana Conference and director of UM Action, a program of the conservative Institute on Religion and Democracy, acknowledged the pain involved in the decisions made this week by the General Conference.

“There's obviously no joy in the pain of others, whether we agree or disagree,” said Lomperis, who supports the Traditional Plan. He said he also voted to discuss the Simple Plan and hear from its supporters.

The Traditional Plan still faces challenges before it could be adopted. Parts of the plan previously were ruled unconstitutional by the denomination’s top court and would need to be amended.

Observers from Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, D.C., attend the UMC General Conference on Feb. 26, 2019, in St. Louis, Mo. Included are Kara Togel, from left, Lenora Whitecotton, Ellie Crain, Cassandra Lawrence, Michelle Wood, and Chelsea Spyres. RNS photo by Emily McFarlan Miller

 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

Observers from Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, D.C., who arrived Tuesday, said they were already grieving the defeat of the One Church Plan and the possibility that the Traditional Plan could be approved.

Cassandra Lawrence said the group had been hoping for “basically anything but” Monday's results.

Ellie Crain agrees. Crain, who identifies as gay and wants to be ordained in the United Methodist Church, now wonders what the future holds.

“I haven’t even considered walking away. It’s like I’m being pushed away,” Crain said.

Chelsea Spyres, who is straight, said she also wants to be ordained but will not take vows until LGBTQ United Methodists can be ordained, too. The denomination is her home, she said.

“I don’t know what’s next,” Spyres said.

(This story has been updated.)


  1. The fear conservatives harbor that the acceptance of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of Christian civilization is as unfounded as Trump supporters’ fear that brown people are invading from the south to rape their women and take their jobs. All conservatives fear change – that’s a given. Unfortunately for them, the world is forever changing. While they may have won this particular battle, they’re losing the war in the court of public opinion where in less than a generation their smaller, purer church will cease to exist.

    Enjoy your hollow victory while you can, conservative Methodists. Tempus fugit.

  2. It’s never a ‘hollow’ victory when Biblically-based Christianity wins out over something less than that.

  3. Why this is being discussed is amazing in that nowhere in the Scriptures is homosexuality declared anything but a sin. Unlike most other sins in the Scriptures it involves a lifestyle without repentance. Therefore I for one will leave the United Methodist Church as this is nothing more than a group whose goal is to force their lifestyle on the Church and the leadership has failed in allowing the discussion. If they are sincere in wanting to serve God and abide by his commandments, they are free to start their own Church as at some point and time is just what the Methodist did. However their goal is nothing more than to change the Church to accept their sinful lifestyle.

  4. ““We are deeply disappointed about the defeat of the OCP and seeking ways to respond to the deep hurt this action causes many LGBTQ people and all who love (them). And we are committed to find ways to make justice and mercy a centerpiece of all of our ministries,” Justice and mercy are helping them to go to Heaven and that is what the traditional plan will do.
    These people need hope, not lies
    “The Rev. Denise Honeycutt of the Virginia Annual Conference had encouraged delegates to support the plan because she said it allows for churches to hold differing beliefs and “together we are stronger.” No, it would have turned the church into a place to shop for which scripture one wants to adhere to.
    Hallelujah, Christ got them this far. Now they need ti tell homosexuals the truth that they are not Christian without the repenting of their sins.

  5. Christians, using Pew’s 2015 figures, are down to their last 2.3 billion members. Of course, I shouldn’t say down because the number of Christians has been growing and is projected to continue to grow. Most other major religious groups are projected to grow as well. See and

    What is changing is the growth and impact of Christianity in the Global South. This growth impacted the Methodist vote. See, for example,

  6. Joe, they voted in the plan for the church to remain traditional.

  7. That I must concede. In places where poverty and illiteracy are the norm religion is indeed growing. Desperation wins many converts. Only in developed nations is it in decline.

  8. Governments are supposed to be democracies or republics. Churches are not. There is no religious doctrine which can be correctly determined by voting. What you can do with these exercises Is split denominations and split churches. Protestantism has a rich history of doing this.

  9. But what it really boils down to, of course, is what various people think is God’s will, since no one truly knows the mind of God. Isn’t that right?

  10. If your lifestyle does not match God’s will, it is your lifestyle that must change and not the will of God.

  11. Christ left us all about Himself in His word. You want to know Christ’s mind, read His word

  12. Joe, they voted to remain traditional, so you can have it. I’m not LGBTQ but I’m done with the UMC (55+ years is way more than enough), and headed to the UCC. I am sick and tired of the hypocrisy of United Methodists like yourself – and it just keeps getting worse. Talk to all the post-Baptist divorced preachers who now serve in UMC pulpits and offer oversight as UMC DS’s. It is flat out hypocritical. NOWHERE in the Scriptures does it say homosexuality is the worst sin. NOWHERE.
    btw, what’s YOUR sin? Oh, and tell us about YOUR sex life and let US decide if you “belong”.
    “Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!” So I will go. You stay in the box and keep judging , though I don’t remember Jesus ever calling us to do that.
    He calls us OUT of the church and TO the people. Open hearts, open doors, open minds… yeah. right. smh.

  13. BUT I love banana “split”!

    “A banana split is an ice cream-based dessert. In its traditional form it is served in a long dish called a boat. A banana is cut in half lengthwise (hence the name) and laid in the dish. There are many variations, but the classic banana split is made with three scoops of ice cream (one each of vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry) served between the split banana. A sauce or sauces (chocolate, strawberry, and caramel are traditional) are drizzled onto the ice cream, then crushed nuts (generally peanuts or walnuts is optional) and whipped cream (optional), then topped with a maraschino cherry.”

  14. Where He said exactly nothing negative about any LGBTQ human being made in God’s Image.

  15. ONE-STOP “shop for which scripture one wants to adhere to.” Yup, that it is these days.

  16. And you, Romanian Empress, enjoy your Fellowship of the Ring with Frédéric Martel, Jussie Smollett, Ed Buck & Terry Bean!

  17. All 40,000 denominations of Christianity claim to be biblically-based and yet disagree on all manner of doctrine and biblical interpretation.


    “Evangelical Churches Booming In Cuba Amid Tensions”, CBS, March 27, 2017.

    “The surprising growth of evangelical churches in France”, France 24, March 19, 2018.

    “Spanish evangelicals report unprecedented growth, now more than 4,000 churches”, Christian Today, January 24, 2018.

    “Evangelicalism is spreading among the Chinese of South-East Asia”, The Economist, January 4, 2018.

    “Even in Canada, Conservative Churches Are Growing”, Christianity Today, April 21, 2017.

    “Why has Pentecostalism grown so dramatically in Latin America?”, Pew Research Center, November 14, 2014.

    “Evangelical churches boom in Switzerland”, Swiss Info, December 4, 2011.

  19. NOPE, IN U.S. IT’S:

    “Evangelicals Once Again Dominate List of Top-growing Large UM Congregations”, Juicy Ecumenism”, November 20, 2018.

    “Some U.S. Christian Groups May be Declining, But Not Evangelicals”, Facts and Trends, March 22, 2018.

    “‘Mainline’ churches are emptying. The political effects could be huge”, Vox, July 14, 2017. Note: “[NOT ‘Evangelical’] churches are emptying”!]

    “Liberal churches are dying. But conservative churches are thriving”, Washington Post, January 4, 2017.

    “Examining the Sources of Conservative Church Growth: Where Are the New Evangelical Movements Getting Their Numbers?”, Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Volume 36, Number 1, March 1997, pages 71-80.

  20. very bold of you to claim to know the will of the creator of the entire universe, based on a book.

  21. Methodists are offering to let the liberal churches leave, and do whatever they want, keeping their buildings and pensions. Yet when the liberals took over the Episcopal demomination, they kept the church buildings, buildings generations of petitioners poured their blood, sweat tears and treasure into.

    The Methodists have had enough of the lies, deception, double dealing and bait and switch that is all the liberals ever offer. They know the serpent for what it is, and know their only survival is to get it out of the tent.

  22. You mean like the Council of Bishops did around 400 A.D. or so when they voted on which books to include in the Bible??? LOL Oh, and concerning governments are suppose to be democracies, that is not what the “Divine Right of Kings” says in the Bible.

  23. God loves you beyond all comprehension.
    God welcomes you
    God blesses the LGBTQ community

  24. You say, ” NOWHERE in the Scriptures does it say homosexuality is the worst sin. NOWHERE.” You are correct. However, nowhere in the scriptures, does it say it is not a sin. In fact, it is condemned repeatedly in both the old and new testaments. It is however the only sin that progressives insist on celebrating by performing same sex marriages and sponsorship of gay pride parades. For me, that is where the line is crossed.

  25. I’m doctor of Psychology and also Biblical Scholar. No where do the Scriptures condone Homosexuality! Galatians states though we or an Angel from Heaven preach unto you any other gospel than the one you have received, let that person be accursed! The world is forever changing, but God’s standards do not bend to the whims of the Politically Correct. Gutless PC Methodists have brought this into our church…Homsexuality is an abomination..and the African Delegates will make sure Homselxuality stay out of the UMC. You will never win…this Godless Satanic Battle…because it will cost you your soul and eternity…Go start your own church…that would be better for you

  26. There are more passages about divorce and adultery, but I don’t see conservatives making a big deal about that!

  27. If the Bible was so “clear”, why are there so many denominations and interpretations?

  28. This is a fundamental tenet of Christianity…Many Protestant Churches are in Hersey…fact…

  29. Religion is not based on facts so it’s like debating the threads on the Emperor’s New Clothes. It’s a waste of time and all it does it hurt people.

  30. Can you say, EXCELLENT?

    EXCELLENT: “Vot[ing] to maintain bans on same-sex weddings and ordination of gay clergy … if formally approved, could drive supporters of LGBT inclusion to leave America’s second-largest Protestant denomination [and] allow disaffected churches to leave the denomination while keeping their property.”

    EXCELLENT: ” About 43 percent of the delegates in St. Louis are from abroad, mostly from Africa, and overwhelmingly support the LGBT bans. … [They] ‘stand with the global church, not a culturally liberal church elite in the U.S.'”

    Source: David Crary and Jim Salter, “United Methodist Church on edge of breakup over LGBT stand”, Associated Press, February 25, 2019.

  31. Yeah, to your first question, I guess I do mean that. Consider what a fraud it was for a bunch of guys to vote untruthful books in, such as Genesis and Revelation, and then have other people centuries later thinking all this stuff is the “Word of God” when it was just some guys voting. As for the “Divine Right of Kings”, please tell me you are making reference to that as a bit of jest and that you don’t really believe it.

  32. Many of the greatest Scientific Discoveries were and are made by devout Christians. I have 1 BS Degree, 2 Masters and at the IRB of PhD Dissertation Phase…A Doctoral Candidate…Many of my brothers and sisters are highly educated…your snotty PC attitude is unimpressive

  33. Frédéric Martel is LGBT.
    Jussie Smollett is LGBT.
    Ed Buck is LGBT.
    Terry Bean is LGBT.

    Them, too? “God blesses the[m] LGBTQ”, too?

  34. “I’m doctor of Psychology and also Biblical Scholar.”
    When a comment starts with credentials, it’s likely it has weak arguments. The rest of your comment confirms that.

  35. Christians sure aren’t celebrating divorce and adultery like progressives celebrate homosexuality.

  36. It is the authoritative word from the author of the universe. I dealt with same-sex attraction and I personally affirm God’s word. Repent means to change your life. That’s what John the Baptist and Jesus both preached “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near.” LGBTQ are names of sexual abnormalities; they are not identities. I affirm my true identity as God’s beloved son. Trying to claim a second identity indicates a divided (bi-polar, diabolical) mindset. That is Satan’s doing. His goal is to create doubt about God’s word just as he did with Adam and Eve (Did God really say that?).

  37. Homosexality is an abomination…it is Demonic…nonsense…Judging???? aren’t you doing that in leaving??? We will be fine in living in the standard of God’s Word…Jesus said and John the Baptist said…bring forth fruits that show your repentance…Paul said have no fellowship with the works of Darkness…Stop endorsing Homsexuality…Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand…

  38. Don’t be modest, jamann1, curtsy is allowed, to the glory of God & Jesus. For indeed through His beloved Son, we’re now capable of “proving what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.” But Terra Jones here? Forget about it!

  39. He said nothing except that Male and Female God Created them…and that a man shall leave his father and mother and clean to his wife and the two shall be one!!!! What Bible are you reading????

  40. That’s because you don’t see adulterers banding together to try to legitimize what they do. If they were organized like the crowd promoting homosexuality, then perhaps you would see a conservative response to it and you could make this comparison. This comparison fails because it tries to portray conservative opinions on the matter as an attack, when in reality the conservative stance is a defensive one.

  41. As one who’s dealt with same-sex attraction (never gay, a sexual abnormality – not an identity), I say God does not bless false identities (LGBTQ). I affirmed my true identity as a child of God. That means, I cannot have any other identity. Claiming 2 identities indicates a divided mind (bi-polar, diabolical). Remember, a house divided against itself cannot stand. This is Satan’s word, raising doubt about God’s word, just as he did with Adam and Eve (Did God really say that?)

  42. Don’t worry, Elagabalus. Like Dracula on steroids, the so-called “One Church Plan” is STILL very much alive. Ain’t dead at all, nope. This scheme is driven by some of the biggest, most influential clergy within Methodism.

    It’s gonna get a LOT of votes this week. This is not a Church Unity plan — this is a Gay Activist plan. Goliath won’t abandon this one without a fight. This plan permanently disconnects the Methodist Church from its own Bible.

    Nobody knows who’s gonna win yet, so I hope the Bible-believers won’t let this little “committee decision” put them to sleep. Again, this ultimate war is so very simple: Vote for the Bible or vote for Gay Goliath. Winner WILL take all !!

  43. Reread the passage again. It’s about lifelong commitment and his admonition against *divorce* — not a treatise on marriage.

  44. Suspicious claims, since you just said that you were already a “doctor”, not a “doctoral candidate”.

  45. As one who has personally dealt with same-sex attraction (never gay – LGBTQ are sexual abnormalities, not identities), I fear God more than man. Man can only kill the body; God can kill both body and soul. Don’t indulge your ego at the expense of your soul. The true church can never accept homosexuality because God’s word tells us it is a sin – that is, it is ultimately self-destructive. I affirm my true identity as God’s beloved child and seek to please him. Jesus rightly said, “If you try to hang onto your life, you will lose it. But if you lose it for my sake, you will gain it.” I suspect that you can’t understand that presently. Suggest reading God’s words seriously. The world may change, but God’s word stands forever. God never changes. I’m following him.

  46. There is more than one way to interpret scripture. I would encourage you to read “God and the Gay Christian” by Matthew Vines. What other identities do I have? I am an American, I am a student, I have a disability, I am a Christian

  47. LGBTQ people are *not* sexual abnormalities — they are human beings made in the Image of GOD as they are.

  48. Hitler was straight.
    Stalin was straight.
    Mao was straight.
    Mason was straight.

    Do you want to keep this up all night?

  49. You are trying to compare the Methodist administrative structure to the Episcopal one when they are two completely different things. In the Episcopal church, the *diocese* is typically the property owner even though individual parishes have responsibilities for various building programs. But the diocese holds the keys in the EC, unlike the MC. Not the same thing at all and an unfair comparison.

    People leave all denominations for a multitude of reasons and each side thinks that they are “right” and that the other side are “serpents”…

  50. Wait wait wait? Are you saying that there are good and bad people of every gender, orientation, and such?

  51. IKR? How could that *ever* be so?
    (*clutching my pearls*)

  52. Interpreting God’s word as saying that God approves of homosexuality is simply a wrong interpretation. Not justifiable. The true church cannot affirm what God’s word clearly says is sin. Grace without Truth is destructive. Homosexuality is ultimately self-destructive. God wants to give us real life. We have to do it His way. The road is narrow as Jesus said, and many do not find it.

  53. @Gehennah:disqus — it finally happened. After what, almost four years now on Disqus?, I invoked Godwin’s Law. 🙁

  54. “nowhere in the Scriptures is homosexuality declared anything but a sin”. Sorry Joe, but that’s false. Jesus embraced, and served and in effect, sanctified a same sex couple by healing the Centurion’s “pais” (lover). Jesus also referred to homosexuality as being a condition from birth.

  55. “Biblically based,” as interpreted by a bunch of uptight heterosexuals.

  56. Of the multitudinous denominations, how sure that only your particular sect interprets *everything* correctly?

  57. So much hate in the church. My heart breaks for the wonderful families whose child comes out…..they need support, love and their church to be supportive. It is no wonder our children are not embracing the church – we no longer follow Christ.

  58. Not meaning to jump in here (I jumped in somewhere else), but I am aware of Matthew Vines’ book. Sort of an evangelistic tract, meant to entice (or snow-job) people to Gay Goliath’s side.

    So I try to offer Dr. Albert Mohler’s short E-book (called “God and the Gay Christian? A Response to Matthew Vines.”) No H8 towards gays, no bullying, no off-the-wall stuff. It simply does exactly what it says: It responds, in light of the Bible, to the points Matthew Vines is trying to sway people with.

    It’s free. Like totally free. Don’t have to do anything, download anything, nor look at any ads. Merely click on the book’s own PDF link here, and start reading the entire book instantly. Then you’ll see why Vines is flat wrong.

  59. While the world is forever changing, the Word of God does not change. In those areas where a God has made His thoughts clear, there is no room for negotiation. That is not being “conservative.” Following God’s Word is being Christian.

  60. You apparently forgot your glasses while reading that passage. That was Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

  61. You did didn’t you?

    Although the context used was more in snark so I don’t think it counts truly.

  62. Divorced people or those who commit adultry are not usually talking about it all the time or confusing our kids about how many sexes there are or making the kids wonder if they “were born in the wrong body.” Sin between consenting adults is not new – what is new is the intense indoctrination going on in Hollywood, the media and some school systems that leaves impressionable kids totally confused. I admire the Methodist Church for using God’s Word as their guide.

  63. “The Rev. Denise Honeycutt of the Virginia Annual Conference had encouraged delegates to support the plan because she said it allows for churches to hold differing beliefs and ‘together we are stronger’.”

    From “The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church”:

    “Beyond the essentials of vital religion, United Methodists respect the diversity of opinions held by conscientious persons of faith. Wesley
    followed a time-tested approach: ‘In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity’.”

    What Honeycutt and the rest pushing the One Church Plan are trying to do is reduce doctrines about sex and marriage to the status of non-essentials. Do any of them really believe that? I rather doubt it–certainly those pushing the Traditional Plan don’t.

  64. While the world is forever changing, God’s Word never changes. Scripture does not contradict itself; anyone can dance around scripture to make it mean what they need it to mean, but Romans 1 does not mince words. Those words may be rejected by the ‘court of public opinion,’ but does that really matter in the long run since God Almighty inspired them to be written?

  65. That’s why we’re each told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are never to be “following” a church, a denomination, or a person. We are to personally read scripture so that we KNOW what God says and better understand Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

  66. You are right – it is not about religion. It is about Jesus Christ and whether He knows you or not.

  67. Apparently you also forgot your glasses, since the Patriarchs were “one man, *multiple* wives, concubines and slave girls”!

  68. Way to just totally write off divorce — even though Jesus actually talked about it, and not LGBTQ people.

  69. It is highly unusual for someone to speak intelligently, plainly and with common sense in these comments. You are going to stick out like a sore thumb.

  70. Sure about that? Endorsing a president who is a “christian” while he claims to *never* pray for forgiveness and who has been a known serial adulterer and sexual predator… *that* kind of “traditional” values?

  71. Truly, it doesn’t matter what your ‘sect’ believes. The only thing that matters for all eternity is whether Jesus Christ knows you.
    The only way anyone can know is to read scripture for themselves.

  72. Romans 1 is about Idol worship.
    I wonder if you’ve ever gone on to read Romans 2…

  73. Maybe he’ll claim to speak five languages… and have a PhD in Chinese 😉

  74. That’s exactly what ALL denominations claim to do…

  75. Which is why it’s absurd that some christians feel that *they* can declare who is a Christian and who is not… That distinction belongs to Christ alone, not them, not you, not me, not anyone.

  76. In your opinion.
    I’m surprised that you don’t think human beings are created in God’s Image… because they ALL are.

  77. Hmmm… while the doctrine about divorce and remarriage (which Jesus actually addresses) is reduced to “non-essential” while they all rush after condemning gay Christians.

  78. If your beliefs agree with the UCC why not go there? Why insist on changing the UMC?

  79. Wow! What did people do before they could read? lol It is only recently that the common man has been able to read!

  80. Tempered by Scripture I hope. God was NEVER open to everything, and God’s people should not be either. Part of the issue is that
    most people are not flaunting their sin nor attempting to convert young minds to embrace it. Most Christians don’t want to know what ANYONE’S sin is – and therein lies the rub! I do not need to have that much information about anybody!

  81. Read Romans 1. Paul’s words were inspired by God.

  82. I was contemplating leaving the UMC as well, but it looks like the conference categorically rejected the modern PC proposal and supported the only time-honored choice consistent with Bible teaching. Good for them!

  83. study the council of Nicea before making these rash statements. The council was anything but a bunch of pious monks voting. It was a strong, heartfelt and vigorous discussion of why something should be included and why others should not.

    Later councils discussed other writings such as the so-called gnostic gospels. Again, great pain is taken to fully understand the teaching and judge it’s value against the rest of the body of scripture.

  84. There are plenty of religions that don’t follow the “book”. The UMC is not one of them. Why can’t you just leave the UMC and be happy?

  85. It’s simple really:

    God loves all his children: the liars, cheats, addicts, bullies, gays, etc.

    God hates all sin: lies, cheating, harmful addictions, bullying, homosexuality.

    Anyone is welcome to seek Jesus

    But no one who refuses to even attempt to avoid sin can possibly lead the church. The liar who WANTS to keep lying, the cheater that WANTS to keep cheating, and the gay person who WANTS to keep having homosexual sex. None of them can lead.

    That’s why an unrepentant gay person can’t lead the church—but it’s not the gay vice that’s key, it’s the embracing of that vice or ANY vice over God’s call to repent.

  86. I taught the Bible for 5 years. Have studied it front to back. Once you study it all, you realize the unchanging God is both
    a God of love AND a God of judgement. The “love” parts are way easier to take, but the judgement parts are just as true.
    The idol worship that trips up most people is putting themselves above the need to apply God’s Word to their lives. God calls that rebellion, and there is judgement for rebellion.

  87. Christians absolutely do fear the outcome of a lifestyle that rejects God’s Word. We don’t value public opinion above the Bible either.

  88. Couldn’t a homosexual lead the church if this person preached repentance of this sin?

  89. Being attracted to someone of the same gender has no bearing on the types of relationships someone has with someone. Same-sex relationships can be life-giving in ways a different-sex relationship is. Because I have life in Christ, I choose to have standards for how I would go about a relationship. Regardless of gender, I intend on only having one monogamous marriage. The road indeed is narrow and many do not find it.
    I am able to thrive in my church because the message is grace. However, when I visit another church that is not LGBT-affirming, I have to deal with the mental anguish of being afraid of being honest about who I am attracted to. And this mental anguish, of being intimidated by homophobia, of feeling there are certain things about yourself you cannot talk about can lead to depression, even sometimes suicide—-internalized homophobia is self-destructive. Both grace and love is a gift from God and this does not need to be considered destructive. Grace and love are life-giving and life-affirming.

  90. I saw at least one person say that they plan to leave the UMC for the UCC. I’m a member of the UCC, and I am proud to be a queer Christian. I hold your pain in my heart; we all do. Whether you decide to join the UCC or just need support through this time, we stand with you.

    To those saying “why not just leave; why try to change the UMC?”: Being affirmed in one’s own tradition is important. Knowing that it’s safe to be yourself in your church is really important in a world that often rejects you. The UCC wasn’t always on board with LGBTQ rights (though we were much earlier than the other mainline denominations). Why are we now? People who wanted to be a congregationalist and be affirmed as a whole person fought long and hard. There are Catholics and Mormons fighting that fight. Staying is hard; leaving is just as hard.

    For those who plan to leave the UMC: There are times when one needs to walk away, when the pain is too great to bear. Others will be able to continue the fight, and they will be that much further than they would have been if not for you. Please take care of yourself, and know that we in the UCC are praying for you.

  91. Since I wasn’t there, cannot answer that question. Can state that God has mercy on who He chooses to have mercy,
    so guessing He made a way. The important fact today is we CAN read scripture for ourselves.

  92. Jesus also didn’t say much of anything about incest, as you may realize. Does that mean, as you seem to imply, that he condoned “intergenerational sex” (incest)? You seem to be suggesting that Jesus’ silence on a subject like incest, or homosexual conduct, indicates his approval of such sexual behaviors, which are otherwise condemned and forbidden everywhere else they are mentioned in the Bible. Surely that is not your intention!

    Jesus came, by His own admission, “to fulfill the Law and the Prophets,” meaning the moral law of God, not to contradict or otherwise diminish it in any way. The reason Jesus didn’t address incest—or homosexuality—is because the Hebrew (Israelite/Jewish) people, throughout their history, were well taught that homosexual acts (and incest) are grave sins according to God’s unchangeable, timeless moral law. Homosexual behavior, in particular, is said to be an abomination (see Exodus 20:13). As a result, these specific sins were not common among God’s people, so unnatural and abhorrent were they correctly thought to be; for this reason, Jesus didn’t need to speak about them. Divorce, on the other hand, was much more of a common problem among the Israelites/Jews, due to “the hardness of men’s hearts,” as Jesus Himself said. Thus Jesus recognized the need to devote time to teaching and preaching about divorce, hoping to dissuade His followers from resorting to this practice.

  93. Note the word ‘personally’. Important to know what Scripture actually says instead of knowing what others say it says…

  94. Check out In the Samuel books about David’s life. I don’t know Trump’s eternal standing with God, but it is my opinion that he was “God’s Man” for today, regardless. God uses who He will to accomplish His goals, and scripture tells us we won’t always understand what is going on, so just trust God is doing what is best for us, whether we see it that way or not.

  95. Not true that there’s no room. Even if the text remains the same, people’s interpretation does not, and no two Christians will ever agree to the exact same interpretation of the Bible. If you believe otherwise, you’re fooling yourself.

  96. He just wants someone to hate. A common theme among conservatives.

  97. Your confusion is that you base your comment on ‘peoples’ interpretation.’ The only interpretation that will ultimately matter is God’s interpretation. We are to read and pray that God brings us to His interpretation of what He’s told us in His Word. It isn’t impossible – God generally says exactly what He means in Scripture, and it is understandable unless it is prophesy. Understanding it is never the real challenge. The real challenge is applying it to our lives. That is the struggle that we have until we leave this earth.

  98. While actively not even TRYING to do exactly what he/she preached? That’s the height of hypocrisy.

    Obviously the answer is no. Seriously, who in their right mind would follow anyone doing that, regardless of which sin it was? Such a preacher doesn’t even believe their own words.

  99. You fail to distinguish leading the church from going to church. All sinners (that’s ALL of us) are welcome to attend, but those not willing to try to repent of ALL sin aren’t called to lead.

  100. (Psst, ElleGeeBeeTease ID Politicking comes after them Allegedly Straights. And yeah lets do dis all week long!)

  101. Centurion: Luke 7:1-10 or Mat 8:5-13
    Gay from birth: Mat 19:12

  102. Here you are:
    Centurion: Luke 7:1-10 or Mat 8:5-13
    Gay from birth: Mat 19:12

  103. I don’t know a single Christian who endorses trumps sinful activities.

    All of the Apostles sinned too. Based on your reasoning, we should throw out all the New Testament past John. Your logic is flawed.

  104. The New Testament talks about homosexuality. Jesus wasn’t the only original church leader.

  105. Bible-study question for me is, What were they, in fact, that “God did … issue”? Wisely interesting, according to Exodus 20:1, 22, God Himself simply called them His “words” whose purpose was so that “the sons of Israel [might] have seen that [He] have spoken to [them] from heaven.” And that was why, in Deuteronomy 5:1-2, prophet Moses classified them as “the statutes and the ordinances which … the Lord our God made [in] a covenant”.

  106. Perhaps you can tell us whose “pais” (lover) Jairus’ 12-year-old daughter was?

    Even better, how did Jesus get to be the “pais” (lover) of God the Father? Or his fore-father David before Him???

  107. Even if you take “eunuch” to mean “gay,” which is quite an assumption, all Jesus indicates here is that marriage is not part of the picture for them.

  108. A blatant lie. I read all three. Nothing in there remotely approaching endorsement of homosexuality.

  109. I read all three. This is a lie. There is nothing about homosexuality there.

  110. He issued His Commandments.
    They serve as a North Star, if you will, to let His children know His most important rules as a guidepost along the path leading to the narrow gate through which we are to travel in order to reach the rooms He has prepared for us. The universe is His.
    He knows the way.
    Like sheep, we are lost and incapable of finding our way home on our own.

  111. Joe, there are many sins pointed out in the bible. Adultery, stealing, murder, coveting, even lusting over another to name a few. Are you saying these people should also be excluded from the church?

    As a reminder, with the exception of well visits, healthy people do not go to doctors. Even if you keep the LGBTQ community out of the church, it will still be full of sinners.

  112. This is what happens when you don’t know history, and try to read the Bible. Centurions typically traveled with a young male servant/lover. They were referred to as a “pais,” which was the word used in the original Greek. When the KJV of the Bible came out, they simply translated “pais” to servant. More evidence can be seen in the fact that the Centurion sought out Jesus’s help in curing him. Normally, the Centurion’s pais was expendable. In this case, the Centurion loved his pais to the point that he was willing to seek out a Jewish Rabbi (Jesus) who was rumored to have healing power. It would take a lot of courage tor the Centurion to do that, given the politics of the day.

    As for the Matthew reference, the actual Aramaic spoke by Jesus was “m’haynma” which translates to “trusted one.” Jesus identified three such persons: Those who have renounced physical relationships (i.e. priests), those made m’haynma by other men (actual eunuchs), and those m’haynma from birth (gay men).

  113. the discussion in Matthew was surrounding taking a wife. No, gay men shouldn’t take a wife. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t marry.

  114. I also grew up in the church. I also taught Sunday School. I also have read the Bible, multiple times through.

    You’re avoiding the context of the passage, it’s author, culture, time and intended audience to support your own forgone conclusion.

    I have no desire to argue today, so will simply wish for you to have a good day.

  115. It was not a surprise. Our bishops are ultra-liberal, and our people are traditional. They’ve voted against homosexual ordination and marriage for 50 years every time.

    This paper needs to do a bit of research

  116. Then since you think the Law is to be upheld, I wonder why you haven’t stoned to death anyone who works on the Sabbath?

  117. There are members of the UMC that are fighting the rampant divorce as well. The issue simply isn’t threatening to tear the UMC apart. Once this issue is dealt with, perhaps that will be next. Of course, part of their problem is that the scriptures aren’t as clear on divorce as they are on homosexual activities.

  118. The literal translation of the word “pais” is “special servant” with an element of ownership. It’s exact meaning depends on the context it is actually used. The word “gay” itself is similar to this. Use one way, it refers to a person’s sexuality. Use another, it simply means “happy.” Regarding the word “pais,” when used in reference to a Centurion, it refers to a person under the control of the Centurion (an ownership element), who was physically involved with the Centurion. When used in reference to Jesus’s relationship with God, it (obviously) takes on a more platonic meaning, but with still the same ownership and control.

    I know you want to hate gay people, or at least feel like you’re their moral superior, but you simply aren’t. Climb down off your pedestal.

  119. What “time-outs”? I haven’t been banned here and your condescension is unnecessary.

    You are the one calling those who disagree with you childish names and the like.

    Grow up and we can have a conversation… Otherwise, have a nice day.

  120. I wish more evangelicals would listen less to their pastors’ opinions on everything and question more why they hold to interpretations that don’t align with the life example of Christ.

  121. “It is better not to marry” (gamēsai) is what the disciples said that elicited Jesus’ comment. The same word you guys use to torture a justification for gay marriage out of Paul’s statement that “it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”

  122. “I’m doctor of Psychology and also (a self proclaimed) Biblical Scholar.” Don’t quit your day job.

  123. I fail to see how a serial adulteror, racist, liar, misogynist and blatant narcissist is anything remotely close to “God’s Choice”!

    I’m not going to be led down the path of fascism by a wannabe dictator who is *idolized* by power-hungry Dominionists.

    Nope. Not gonna happen. He’s definitely NOT “God’s Choice”!

  124. You said,

    “I don’t know a single Christian who endorses trumps sinful activities.”

    Tell that to Falwell, Jefress and Graham… and when you’re ready to admit the truth, come back and we can talk further.

  125. If you don’t consider Jesus to be THE Leader of the Church, then we have nothing more to discuss.

  126. So we agree then that Jesus is talking about gay men in that verse?

    Actually, they were talking about a man divorcing his wife just before Jesus’s comment, so the conversation was surrounding male-female relationships. In those days, they didn’t understand marriage the way we do today. The men literally took custody/ownership/responsibility for the care of his wife Women were considered a man’s inferior/possession. It was more than just marrying as we know it today. “Gamēsai” would have literally meant “taking a wife.”

    As a side note, understanding the prevailing attitude toward women establishes an interesting backdrop to Jesus’s treatment of Mary Magdalene. He elevated her to the equal of his other disciples, to the point he chose her to be the first witness of his resurrection, and made her the Apostle to the Apostles. That was quite irritating to both Peter and Paul. But that’s a subject for a different discussion.

  127. It’s not threatening to treat your church apart because the UMC likes to minimalize actual sin close to home in favor of attacking nonexistent sins of people who God made differently than others.

  128. Funny how your prejudice and Gods will always seem to be the sane thing. That is the joy of fundamentalism. Using God to absolve yourself of personal responsibility for being a malicious and vile person.

    If you are using your faith to justify treating others like garbage, you are merely being spineless, not pious.

  129. Funny how that same book also, in far more examples in its text, demands we treat others respectfully and avoid pretending to act as gods judgement. How one must avoid self professed piety. Where the phrase “love thy neighbor” is not a conditional or qualified statement.

    But that doesn’t count because you can’t use it as an excuse to be obnoxious and malicious to others.

    Your expression of faith is a worthless excuse to act badly. Christianity can do better than such self serving petty hypocritical expressions.

  130. Nowhere is it mentioned as sinful to the degree you claim it to be. The malice, self righteousness, and dishonesty you express right now is mentioned far more often and decried far more explicitly as sinful.

    But what is the point of faith if you can’t use it as an excuse to attack others, Amirite?

  131. Because sin and damnation are always about what other people do, never yourself.

    Only ones which enable you to act maliciously to others are really important. Not ones requiring reflection and self awareness.

    Simpky spineless bigotry for those who wants to use religion to avoid owning up to personal prejudice.

  132. Of course they do. Look at the president they overwhelmingly voted for. A serial adulterer and wh0re monger as opposed to one who stayed married despite a wayward spouse.

    Sin is always about other people. Not yourself.

  133. I am not living by the interpretation of any particular denomination/sect. I am relying on my own understanding of God’s word as he has revealed to me. The word he has already given is clear. As with individuals, denominations/sects may choose to live by God’s word or not. As Joshua said to the Israelites in the Promised Land ‘Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” From the beginning when the serpent got Adam and Eve to doubt God’s word (Did God really say that?), Satan’s goal has been to cause us to doubt God’s word. You make your choice (God or Satan) and you reap the consequences.

  134. Except all of them who voted for him and make excuses for his conduct. The majority of Christians who also promote discrimination of gays.

    Sin only matters if you can receive some benefit from the sinner.

  135. Nope. First, for Christians Jesus invalidated what the Old Testament has to say about divorce when he sided with the Shammai school of Jewish theology on the issue—but what he said applies to men, he doesn’t say anything about the grounds on which women can divorce their husbands (for the simple reason that the question Jesus was answering didn’t involve women). Then later Paul accepts divorce for cases of abandonment for both sexes, specifically in cases where an unbelieving spouse abandons a believing spouse. But what neither Jesus nor Paul accepts is no-fault divorce as the Hillel school essentially did. So there may be some murkiness on precisely what grounds there should be for divorce, but no murkiness at all about the need for there to be grounds and serious ones.

  136. Christians like yourself only concern themselves with the sins they can attack others for. They have no concern for those which require personal. reflection on.

    Conservative Christians have already demonstrated their professed values are a sham. They are simply immoral malicious opportunists looking for access to power. You are proving yourself to be nothing more than an excuse making stooge for immortality

  137. Christians only pay attention to the old laws when convenient to them. In this case to ignore “love thy neighbor” and act like malicious bigots in public.

  138. So everyone under someone else’s control must necessarily be that person’s “lover?”

    Interesting that the circumstances that you are reading into this story, and claiming that Jesus approved, is the exact same set of circumstances that your camp typically reads into Paul’s admonitions in Corinthians in order to minimize its scope — abuse of power and control.

    You guys need to make up your minds on some of these issues. Of course, as soon as you do, your argument will fail one way or another.

  139. You mean the passage that attacks idolaters, revilers and slanderers. People who use their religion as a pretext to harm others, like you.

  140. As I already said, I don’t agree to that whole-heartedly. The point is that even if true, it does not help your case.

    What marriage meant to 1st century Jews, or what it means today, isn’t important. As Jesus indicated in this passage, what matters is what marriage meant to HIM at the time of creation, since it is the creation model that He came to restore. The Church repudiates polygamy for the same reason — it does not comport with that model.

  141. “So everyone under someone else’s control must necessarily be that person’s ‘lover?'”

    Obviously, you didn’t read my discussion. There’s no sense in my commenting further until you do.

  142. I read your discussion, all right. And have read it from numerous others around here who made as little sense as you do.

  143. This is how you know religion is blind because it’s rooted in the absurd notion that the ethics of ancient desert locked middle-eastern tribes people are somehow the word of god(s).

  144. Ms. Honeycutt is mistaken. Diversity in opinions is one thing.
    But diversity in the application of law does not make anything stronger except disorder.

  145. As far as I know, people are safe in the Methodist Church.
    At least all the Methodist churches that I’m familiar with.
    Being “yourself” is not what being a Christian is about.
    It is about killing the self.

  146. The Methodist church has itself to blame for allowing bad theology and super biblical literalism to run its missions and evangelization now the largest portion of the church does not understand nor wants to learn what we now know and understand about the Bible the writers and human sexuality … this is so painful for those who stand with the margins and those who are being marginalized by the church

  147. There is one instance of “pais” being used in this slang manner in Ancient Greek — about 500 years before Christ. It says nothing about how a 1st century Jew would use it.

    The primary meaning of “pais” is child. Which presents bigger difficulties for your position than the simple biblical prohibitions themselves.

    A boy toy was hardly standard equipment for a centurion. Centurions has all sorts of relationships with women, both slave and free, and there was an extensive body of Roman law which dealt with the formalization of such unions, and the legitimization of the children they produced, after the term of service was up

  148. I have some sense of your fear of certain churches. My younger brother suffered unwanted same-sex attraction and committed suicide at age 20 (1970). He had never experienced “homophobia”. Shortly before he died, he said to me, “I’ve been reading the Bible, and I’m condemned to hell.” I tried to convince him otherwise, but, at that point did not have enough of God’s wisdom to do so. The gospel writer says that “Jesus came, full of Truth and Grace.” Churches that focus on Grace and neglect Truth are false shepherds. I made a decision as a teenager that I didn’t need to share my same-sex attraction with others; it would be up to God and me to work it out. I decided to follow his word as best I could. As years passed and I researched homosexuality, I realized that there was a spiritual/emotional aspect to my attraction, most likely due to a lack of emotional connection with my father (who always criticized, never complemented). So I sought non-sexual affirmation from other men. I believe we can have God-pleasing relationships with others of the same sex when the goal is spiritual unity (John 17). But sexual relationships with the same sex goes against God’s word. The goal is spiritual (not sexual) unity. In the same way that baptism is simply an outward sign of a dying-to-self/rising-to-new-life-in-Christ, sex between a man and a woman should be the outward sign of the deeper reality of a spiritual unity. By the way he designed our bodies, that unity of flesh to signify unity of spirit can only be between a man and a woman. How I wish I had understood that before I got married. If you ever feel depressed/suicidal and need someone to talk to, please call me 704-256-4269 (no mobile). I’m praying for you.

  149. You should check your anger, your distrust and your sheer hatred of all things contrary to your putrid liberalism. You spend more energy believing in nothing than most evangelicals spend believing in God.

  150. Jesus’ admonition “Judge not that ye be not judged.” is misinterpreted by many as “we are never to judge.” But that was not Jesus’ meaning. He proceeded to say “First, remove the log from your own eye, then you will be better able to help your neighbor remove the speck from his eye.” So, the first step is self-purification. Then we will be better equipped to love our neighbor, because we have a clearer vision of reality, and can warn our neighbor when we see them in danger. Would a parent be loving if they never warned their child about the danger of playing in the street? Love is a commitment to help each other grow mentally and spiritually. (ref. psychotherapist M. Scott Peck’s “The Road Less Traveled” He says mental/spiritual health are one and the same, and that love is the willingness to nurture one’s own and others’ mental/spiritual health. Also, that “Mental health is an ongoing process of dedication to reality at all costs.” and that “Mental health requires that the human will submit itself to something higher than itself.”)

  151. When churches accept homosexuality it leads to the death of churches. People stop going.

  152. If you read the Bible then you know it condemns homosexuality wherever its mentioned. It is never affirmed.

  153. You look for cheap excuses to avoid what is plainly obvious from the scripture. Adding new conditions and carve outs to suit your personal need to act badly to others. You create your own meaning to suit your needs and avoid personal responsibility.

    As I mentioned earlier, people like yourself use scripture and notions of sin to attack others but are too hypocritical and dishonest to apply the same to themselves. You are afraid of being judged for your sins and seek to avoid mention of it.

    The plank before your eyes is far from removed or even noticed. You are using your time to deal with specks in others.

  154. Believe as you wish. Our choices have eternal consequences.

  155. “Pais” can mean either “child, young man” or “servant” (not necessarily young). The age and actual function all depends on context. It was a special term in the context of the Centurion. In Roman culture, homosexual relations were simply part of life. If the writer, or the Centurion had simply meant a male servant, he would have used the word “doulos” which unambiguously means “slave” and would have no sexual connotation. Here though, pais was used to elevate the servant.

  156. I never had any trauma. I never felt that I got less attention from either of my parents. I never had a “bad” experience with boys that “put me off them”. I never had anything at all negative that “turned” me gay. At all, ever.

    I’m a gay woman because that’s how God *delighted* to make me. And I’m living fully in God’s Love and Grace as a married lesbian with a godly Christian wife and our children. God is Good. God is Love. Our love is embraced and filled with God’s Love.

    I wish you well.

    cc: @disqus_V7xIj9FpyQ:disqus

  157. There was no official Canon of scripture for over 300 years after Christ died and was raised.

  158. Christ does not make anyone a homosexual. He is not going to make someone intended to go to Hell. He is not going to make someone with what He has called, “unnatural affections” to do “shameless acts” that are an “error”. Not going to happen.

  159. Satan’s deception is working well.
    I wish you well also and hope you will take God’s word seriously.

  160. There were many scripture that we passed around from church to church

  161. Nope – Christ taught that we would know them by their fruit

  162. “It is the authoritative word from the author of the universe.” [Citation Needed]

  163. Well goody, goody, goody for you – you’ve “dealt” with your same-sex attraction. I predict that in just a few years you’ll follow the same path many have trod who led others in the path of so-called “conversion therapy” only to realize years later that everything they were taught, everything they were teaching others, was a sham. Sexual orientation is immutable. You can deny it, you can bury it, you can try to pray it away, but it’s no different than praying for a different hair color – it won’t happen. In the end I pity you, but not much, since what you are advocating is an evil lie that results, ultimately, in suicide in many cases. God’s word does indeed stand forever, but our understanding of it is what must change in light of new revelation. Those who advocate for theological calcification preach a dying message that young people especially are no longer buying, and for good reason.

  164. We don’t know if the Lord actually talked about it or not, but, it is evident from the writings of His followers (who condemn the sin) that He did not change His mind on the sin.

  165. Yes, TS, it is. Homosexuals follow an idol – a self made deity. That is why Christ turned them over to a reprobate mind to do that which is not good.

  166. The Biblical canon actually wasn’t a topic of discussion at the Council of Nicaea. They settled a few important theological points (like condemning the teachings of Arius, and devising the first part of the “Nicene Creed” – the now standard Christian profession of faith), but the accepted Biblical texts were already pretty much agreed on by this point.

  167. People leave homosexuality all the time.
    Christ taught, “And such were some of you,” indicating that they had been cleansed of their homosexuality

  168. If you can support your own interpretation with the Scripture text and context, I’m willing to listen.

    But so far the pro-gay folks around here are a Cat-5 disappointment in that area. Go figure.

  169. Who promotes discrimination of gays?
    We’re all sinners.
    There – all equal.
    Feel better now?

  170. Paul didn’t want anyone to be married. But conceded it was okay, though not preferable as a way to follow Jesus and be close to God.

  171. I’m a Christian but thanks for your well wishes. Adios!

  172. Many that were eventually rejected, yet were considered to be holy scripture at the time…

  173. So, polygamy is “OK”?
    Alright, well at least we know where you stand.

  174. They’re are many followers of Christ today who say things that don’t coincide with what Christ said. Paul was speaking to several specific churches, and yet you extrapolate literally everything — women subjugated to property status and kept silent, for example.

  175. No, Fundamentalists are the Idolators, who worship a book rather than the Living Christ.

  176. One does not know Christ without the Bible. It is His declaration of who He is.

  177. We are on the same side, but the Catholic Register is justifying a lower number by excluding Protestants and Orthodox as worldwide Christians… Hardly accurate to say that only the RCC are Christians.

  178. Do you all not know that homosexuality wasn’t even a thing back then? Sexual identity is a fairly recent understanding. There was no need to either approve of or disapprove of same-sex marriage in biblical times because marriage then was nothing like marriage today. The vast majority of people marrying for love is a pretty new concept in human history. People married for many reasons, but it was more of a financial transaction or a practical transaction. Not so today. We understand marriage and partnership differently than many other cultures throughout history have understood it. Women now are able to have financial independence in most of the world and have less need to marry out of necessity, so have more choice. This completely changes what marriage is and we have brought it closer to God’s intended “partner/helper” desire for humans to not be alone. And a gay person desiring a partner in life is no different than a straight person’s desire to have a partner, so the desire for marriage – and to be married in one’s own church – is understandable.

    Now, back to “gay” being a new concept. Throughout history there have been same-sex sexual relations. But it is the relationship that is different. In the Bible, they never talked about homosexuality, because it wasn’t understood as an identity. Men having sexual relations together was only understood as a sex act. They weren’t considering marriage, or raising children together. They sometimes had male-male relationships that were about power and control, but not about equality. They had pederasty, where older males would teach younger males and this relationship involved sex. Those were the types of relations that were condemned in the Bible, the ones where one person was subservient to the other or under the control of the other or being abused by the other, but it is nothing like the equal relationships that gay persons enjoy today.

  179. No, you don’t, actually.
    You cannot quote Him and you twist scripture to suit your hateful agenda.

  180. Christ did not spend the years teaching Paul. Stop being disingenuous!

  181. One must interpret the Bible through the lens of CHRIST — *not* the other way around!

  182. We have already seen that pais has no sexual connotation anywhere in scripture. But it DOES usually have a youthful connotation.

    One of the gospel writers (Luke) DOES use the word “doulos.” And Luke, a Gentile, would have been more in touch with so-called “Roman culture” than the Jewish Matthew

    In addition, the Jewish elders assured Jesus that the centurion was “deserving” of a miracle. They would not have made any such recommendation of a sexually immoral person.

  183. Yep, and Rome killed Christians when they would not recant their beliefs.

  184. YES! Thank you! Understanding women and men as equals destroys “biblical marriage” as an argument, because that was nothing like what we understand marriage to be today. And if you don’t see men and women as equals in all parts of life, including in marriage, then you probably shouldn’t be worshiping in the UMC.

    I think the inherent equality in same-sex relationships is the real thing that frightens people who only promote “traditional marriage.” If our relationships are equal, where does that leave people who still believe that women should be subservient to men and that wives should submit to their husbands?

  185. That’s not the discussion here; were talking about how *within* the Church herself, various documents were accepted as holy scripture before eventually being *dismissed* from the Canon of scripture!

  186. Another example of your lack of Biblical knowledge
    I recommend Galatians 1:11-18

  187. Read the Gospels and *then* read the rest of scripture in the Light of Christ. Don’t try to shoehorn Jesus into a legalistic position based on how you view the other texts without first submitting to Jesus Christ.

  188. Except that “God’s Word” refers to Jesus Christ, not to a book of text. The Word of God is not the Bible, The Word of God is Jesus.

  189. Yes! Picking and choosing which which parts of God’s Word they apply to their lives is going to trip them up every time!

  190. “Being affirmed in one’s own tradition is important.”

    But “affirming” LGBT is not, according to the Book of Discipline, your tradition. In wanting to change that, you are destroying your own tradition and promoting a different tradition.

  191. Yes, it is inspired but it was also written by men of their own culture and time. To deny that is to deny history.

  192. Marriage hasn’t changed whatsoever:1 Corinthians 7 – Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.” But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.” No exceptions
    The Bible condemned homosexuality from Sodom and Gomorrah to the Book of Revelation. It is not an identity – it is a choice of sin.

  193. I’ve read it, many times.
    What you’re missing is the Paul is talking about the *Gospel* — Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for all — *NOT* the status of gay people in the church.

  194. I can agree with that, which is exactly what they do when they wish to exclude gay Christians from the Table.

  195. If I might offer, an even better book, in my opinion is Walking the Bridgeless Canyon (Repairing the breach between the Church and the LGBT community) by Kathy Baldock. It is a through examination of the historical, cultural, psychological, medical, social, and religious lenses through which LGBT people have been viewed that has resulted in decades of distortion.

  196. Sometimes the truth
    hurts. Sorry to cause you

  197. There is the passive aggressive response one expects from fundamentalists. Its all just an excuse to act like a horse’s posterior.

  198. If you had told the truth about reading it, you would not have made that comment. You don’t know scripture, or you would understand my second comment

  199. I guess you are not being used to be called out for behaving badly under the guise of “sincere belief”.

  200. Again, how does one “read the rest of scripture in light of Christ”?

  201. So, the obsession of some Christians with both homosexuality and The big Ten is really all of the former and none of the latter, seeing as this most important ever in never made into the Big Ten?

  202. I’m very sorry for your experiences and tragedies. I’m also sorry that you’ve come to the conclusion that God is against same-sex sexual relationships. And I don’t say that in a patronizing way. Just know that many have studied the same scripture and have come to the opposite conclusion. We believe God loves us and wants us to be happy, and that happiness does not come from living a life of restriction or celibacy. That we have gifts to offer the church, that being gay or being in a same-sex relationship does not keep us away from God, does not prevent us from the joy of following Jesus, and does not prevent us from fully sharing our gifts with the church.

    The high risk of suicide from those who hear negative messages from their church is one of the biggest reasons that the church needs to move forward on this issue and not teach young people that they are less than because of who they love. No UMC should be teaching these messages anyway, as gay people are fully welcome in our church! Today’s decision is about gay clergy and performing same-sex marriage only. So, I would hope that no one has been turned away from any UMC or told they can’t marry. Gay people can marry and attend UMC, they just can’t have their marriage performed by UMC clergy, but they are otherwise fully welcome to participate in church at every level.

  203. You do.

    Evidently some sins are more worthy of attention. Especially of those you wish to attack, but of course never one’s own sins.

    You can always be counted on to make excuses for people acting badly.

  204. So, no divorce except for adultery. No remarriage to a divorced woman. Death for adultery and unbelievers.

  205. It’s not simple because we don’t believe that being gay is a sin. Neither in being, nor in “practice.”

  206. If your own brother’s suicide did not convict and convince you of the toxicity of the religious beliefs that infected him and you both, then nothing ever will.

  207. Evidently the choices of people you support have far less consequences than those who you feel like attacking. Funny how that always works out.

    You expect your choice to be malicious and dishonest to be without consequence at all. Hence your claim of it being God’s will. How very spineless.

  208. Or satan has deceived you. That’s the thing about satan.

  209. There is ultimate room for interpretation and for change!

    Thank goodness my church doesn’t believe that women should not speak in church, or that divorce is not tolerated, or, God forbid, that slavery is acceptable to God!

  210. So what will you do aobut the 2/3 of the world who doesn’t believe in your god? What will you do about the Jews who don’t think god had a son?

  211. So, are you now heterosexual, having sex with a woman, maybe even kidS? No same sex attraction whatsoever?

  212. The bible never means what it so clearly says. There is no one righteous, no, not one. But you have purified yourself, and I guess no longer suffer form the problem of original sin? so there is ONE RIGHTEIOUS, yes, just one. So now you are free to judge others.
    But why should I trust the judgment of a self-confessed homosexual, as I have been repeatedly told that homosexuals are buried under mountains of sinful thoughts, and deserve hell, and all of it?
    are you not only a better class of sinner, a better class of righteous, and now, a better class of homosexual?

  213. They are far more clear on divorce than “sleeping the sleep of a woman” and arsenkoitai could ever hope to be in a month of sundays.

  214. Thank you for your words. I, too, have seen people saying they plan to leave the UMC over this decision.

    I think for most people that shouldn’t be necessary. If the traditional plan passes, nothing will change for most churches. It will be most difficult, obviously, for gay clergy who want to be ordained or serve in the United Methodist Church. They will all have a difficult decision to make.

    For laypeople, it should be easier. We may not be able to be married by our pastor, but we can still fully participate in church as a queer person. At my UMC, gay people participate in per-marriage classes, stand before the congregation to have their children baptized, participate in gay and lesbian bible studies and small group classes, we have PFLAG groups and groups for allies. We make sure that the kids’ Sunday school isn’t teaching any anti-gay message, because that would go against the UMC social principles.

    Many of my church friends are married, same-sex couples. They just got married outside of church. It’s disappointing, and would be nice to have the option for a church wedding, but in truth it wasn’t a big hardship for anyone I know. And of my straight friends, only one couple was married in the church they attend. It’s just very common today to be married elsewhere, either by your pastor, by a different faith leader, or by a justice of the peace. So, other than that one day, they are fully embraced by the church .

  215. Yes. The film “God Loves Uganda” shows how U.S. missionaries spread the anti-gay message to the less developed world and not we reap what we have sown. So disappointing.

  216. This is wonderful news that the Traditional Plan has moved forward. I’m grateful to see the UMC moving toward affirmation of traditional Christianity including traditional Christian ethics in terms of human sexuality. My hope is that the Traditional Plan will be fully affirmed by the delegates and that the Church will remain gospel centered and not subject to the whims of cultural fashion.

  217. I can’t speak to the “obsessions” of other people. But I think that the people who are obsessed with homosexuality are far fewer than you think.

    But to your other point, you can read the first commandment and rightly interpret those words as including quite a bit of behavior that places self, and self interest, ahead of Him as the one and only God, and thus displeasing Him, who wishes only our good, as being outside the realm of His acceptance.

    And then you can go even further, into the New Covenant, and read the words of Jesus concerning the issues that are in play.

  218. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever

  219. LOL. Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality! If you still believe that misinterpretation then it is no wonder you believe the others.

  220. With most of their assemblies endorsing and promoting immorality and the celebration of immorality while partaking of communion, teaching young children that immorality is appropriate

  221. A word of caution here- in your zeal to show sympathy see to it you don’t promote the sin as God will hold you as guilty as those practicing it.

  222. There are only 6 passages in the bible that potentially refer to same-sex behavior. Three Old Testament; three New Testament. The Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible in 1946 was the first to translate Greek words associated with same-sex behavior as “homosexual.”

    So, depending on your age, that means that the bibles your parents and grandparents grew up with – just a couple generations ago – did not condemn “homosexuality” because that word wasn’t introduced to the scripture until quite recently!

  223. Please consider Jesus’ words:
    “If you love father or mother more than me, you are not worthy to be my follower.” (I would add “or self”).
    “Those who do the will of my father are my mother and my brothers.”
    and from the Sermon on the Mount (Matt.7) “Be wary of false preachers …. Who preachers ARE is the main thing, not what they say. …. “Knowing the correct password–saying ‘Master, Master,’ for instance–isn’t going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience–doing what my Father wills. I can see it now–at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, ‘Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.’ And do you know what I am going to say? ‘You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don’t impress me one bit. Yo’re out of here.'”
    I hope you don’t miss the boat because of false shepherds.

  224. In Genesis, Sodom and Gomorrah was not about gay sex. It told the story of men wanting to humiliate guests via a form of gang rape. And Lot responds by offering up his daughters to be raped, instead of the angels in the form of men. So, when you read this under the lens of the culture of the time when women were considered so low that their suffering was not comparable to that of a man’s humiliation, and thus preferable in their eyes. Same-sex behavior is never mentioned as the sin that destroys Sodom. Sins that are mentioned include: arrogance, disregard to poor and needy by the wealthy, and in-hospitality. When Sodom is later mentioned in the Matthew, Luke, and Peter, same-sex behavior is never mentioned, but what is referred to is the lack of hospitality and mistreatment of visitors, and for that they will be judged.

  225. I hope you don’t “miss the boat” because you failed to love and care for the Least of These…

  226. Wrong again. All sins are sins in God’s eye.
    The only difference is some repent of their sins while others celebrate and flaunt them; and, desire others to accept their sinfulness.

  227. You should edit the phone number out. It has no place in this kind of board. Nobody needs to dox themselves here.

  228. Do you mean the Frist Commandment in which your god admits that your god is not the only god, and he really doesn’t care about other gods as long as he is first?
    That first commandment?

  229. Nope. Your posts are all about whataboutism and deflection. Attack the sins of others, deny/ignore/avoid/make excuses for the sins of those you support.

    Honest discussion is never your strong point. Trolling is. 🙂

  230. Please quote Jesus saying anything negative about gay people.

  231. “The Bible is the word of God ancient men claiming to quote a god whose existence has never come close to being proven. Why did they do that? First of all, people in general wanted an explanation of their existence. Secondly, as in all societies, their are some individuals who seek a way of gaining power/control/dominion over the entire society, and they are certainly among the writers of the Bible. And certainly there were other writers who were simply documenting their fantasies and delusions that emanated from desperate efforts to explain their existence despite the profound ignorance of the time-period.

  232. Leviticus seems more straight-forward, but is it? It clearly describes behavior that is not pleasing to God, not acceptable to the Jews. But what is the overall context? These passages are contained in the Law God gave to Moses after the Jews left behind pagan culture in Egypt, before entering another pagan culture in Canaan. The law set clear boundaries to keep the Jews separate from the surrounding cultures.

    If a Jew broke any prohibition in the Law, he or she was guilty of breaking the whole Law. There were no distinctions drawn between “lesser” or “greater” prohibitions. [Side note: this is why devout Orthodox Jews today keep all of these rules like not mixing fabrics, or women keeping their hair covered, or not being touched while menstruating.]

    If you’re going to disregard all of those prohibitions as Christians, yet try to keep the prohibition on same-sex behavior, then it’s important to understand what behavior they’re talking about. The verse uses the word “toevah”, translated as “abomination,” used 117 times in the OT. It is generally associated with foreign, cultural, idolatrous, or religious practices. toevah was not an ethical term, however, but marked boundaries with a basic sense of taboo. These boundaries were necessary because every facet of a Jew’s life was intended as a visible demarcation between himself and the pagan cultures surrounding him. Their lives were governed by orderliness. Their biggest motivation was to avoid anything that the pagans did, and the pagans commonly participated in same-sex behavior.

    Also, the only prohibitions were on men having sex with other men. There was no rule about women having sex with women. They considered a man taking the sexual role of a woman (submissive) to be degrading. Thus they were told to remain separate from all behaviors resembling pagan behaviors, less they be mistaken to be one of them.

  233. Why don’t you address his comment instead of playing word games…

  234. Anti-homosexuality is itself a whim of cultural fashion.

    It is only in recent decades that it was looked down upon or considered “incompatible with Christian teaching” and as culture shifts again, so too does the church’s view on the matter.

  235. Trump was elected because of the alternative. Hillary defended Bill’s behavior and stayed with him for political reasons.

  236. The alternative was someone who acted in the Christian manner and stayed with her wayward spouse. They preferred a serial adulterer, habitual liar, embezzler, and bigot.

    Trump was elected with the help of evangelicals, because they thought they could have greater access to political power. They have continued to support him because their professed values are a complete sham. They wanted a corrupt grifter with no respect for rule and law. Easier to work with them as opposed to people who uphold inconvenient. democratic principles.

  237. Vines’ book is nothing by 100% warmed-over John Boswell.

  238. Look again.
    He says “There is no other God…………..”and then lists all the other places where there are no other Gods.
    But even if you think there are other Gods, so be it.
    But He goes on and says don’t place them above Him.
    And if you place Him first, you will understand that you don’t need any others.
    Give it a try. What have you got to lose?

  239. The NT canon list we have dates from the middle of the 2nd century AD. With the exception of James, Hebrews and the Petrine epistles, it is identical to the NT we have today.

    It even includes the explanation for why certain popular Christian works were not accepted as scripture — because they came after the times of the apostles.

  240. The main reason evangelicals voted for Trump was liberals constantly attacking religion and their beliefs. As the saying goes, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” That and liberals embracing every deviant behavior known to man.

  241. No, the Canon was settled in the Fourth Century (300s) by a Great Ecumenical Council of bishops. And most of the books that were rejected also came after the time of the Apostles and were considered holy scripture by many churches until the Canon was finalized.

    Protestants would take it upon themselves a thousand years later to remove even more books from the holy scriptures.

  242. The conference in St. Louis has nothing to do with what Jesus says about gay people. But if it did, I imagine that 99.9% of the delegates would affirm and agree that Jesus loves gay people. But that’s not what we’re talking about.
    Some of those who wrote following the crucifixion expressed views about homosexuality, and I believe that their words are inspired by Divine revelation, but that’s not what we’re talking about either.
    We’re talking about gay marriage.
    And Jesus clearly defined what marriage is in the Gospels, and even referred to Genesis as the source of God’s plan concerning sexuality.

  243. No, Jesus spoke out against *divorce* in Matthew. He never made a treatise on marriage and he never excluded gay people from a lifetime married relationship.

  244. Hardly. It is conservatives who are giving religious faith a bad name. Looking to appropriate it for their own personal agendas and bigotry. To give an air of social acceptance to malice and discrimination. Whatever attacks you perceive from “liberals” are merely the consequences of an agenda which promotes malice and pettiness. More concerned with “deviant behavior” of others, than your own quite obvious sins.

    “The ends justify the means” is the more honest expression of evangelical behavior here. Any pretense of morality and values being a complete sham.

    Conservative Christians have always been easy marks for supporting policies which attack the economic interests of those who work for a living. Throw a little token support to their petty bigotry and they vote for whatever corrupt policies come their way.

  245. While I cannot be sure that you and your brother were indoctrinated with religion while you were children, I’m sure that a huge majority of people who are now fanatically religious adults were indoctrinated by parents, relatives, and/or “friends,” and that the indoctrination typically involved being forced to attend frequent services (and/or “Sunday school”) at a local church (superstition indoctrination center).

    Indoctrination of children with religion should be viewed as one of the very worst categories of child-abuse. It tries to discourage rational thinking using reason, evidence, and logic, and then tries to force them to see Fantasy Accepted as Complete Truth (FACT).

  246. “They sometimes had male-male relationships that were about power and control, but not about equality. They had pederasty, where older males would teach younger males and this relationship involved sex. Those were the types of relations that were condemned in the Bible”

    Yet this is precisely the sort of thing that your compadre up above is claiming that Jesus approved of.

  247. my spiritual, emotional, and intellectual integrity?

    You should read it.

    NIV: You shall have no other gods beforeme.

    NKJV: You shall have no other gods before me.

    Living Bible: You may worship no other god than me. hslightly different menaing).

    ASV: Thou shalt have no other gods [b]before me.

    Geneva: Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

    KJV: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    Sounds pretty definitive. I can keep doing this all day.

  248. I did. The word games are the ones being played by the the author of the Big 10.

  249. Juicy Ecumenism reports that the Minority Report (a final attempt to pass the One Church Plan) has been rejected by United Methodism’s governing General Conference, finalizing the decision for the Traditional Plan.

  250. He said marriage is not for anyone who can’t enter into it in the creation manner. Sorry.

  251. Exactly what I often ask the evangelical atheists who loiter around here.

  252. I’ve often heard people defend their divorces and remarriages with that.

  253. No. It was about homosexuality. Whatever caused you to think otherwise?

  254. I’m waiting for TS to stop running away and answer the questions

  255. What you don’t realize is that the church doesn’t shift with the culture
    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever

  256. Christ taught all over the Bible how homosexuality is a sin

  257. If the prohibition on homosexual behavior, and indeed all the varieties of sexual immorality, were simply a matter of distinguishing Jew from Canaanite, why does Leviticus say explicitly that God judged and rejected the Canaanites for these practices long before there was ever a Torah or any Israelites in Canaan requiring “demarcation?” (Lev. 20:23)

  258. How many people are going to read your last sentence as “killing YOUR self”? Asking for a friend. (I know what it means, but others may not…)

  259. And where did you receive you childhood indoctrination? Obviously not at a church.

  260. It was a surprise to those who thought the mainstreaming of marginal views was the wave of the future.

  261. Provide me the citation that directly evidences one of those three stated that one of Trumps sinful activities was not a sin.

    And if you do find it, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you condemning their statement.

  262. Seriously, God knew what was being written in His Word. Interpretation is man’s response to understanding/dealing with what He said. And scripture also assures us that a God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If one rightly divides the Word of God, God brings peace and understanding. That does not ensure that all humans will like or practice what He said. Christians will be
    the first to tell you that they are sinners, saved by grace. Grace covers all sins. The issue here is the flaunting and promotion of sin.
    The Methodist church probably does not want known adulterers/adulteress in the pulpit either.

  263. No version of “being” is a sin. I never claimed as such. All sins I’m aware of are sins of commission or omission.

    What do you mean by “practice?” Do you mean that two people of the same sex having intercourse is not a sin?

  264. “…because we don’t believe that being gay is a sin.”

    With the emphasis on WE. WE decide what’s a sin and what isn’t.

    No you don’t – your personal beliefs are irrelevant to divine considerations (“as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:9). And that’s about as simple as it gets

  265. This is outstanding news. I continue to hope and pray that the United Methodist church will uphold orthodox Christianity and I am so thankful for our African brothers and sisters in the faith who understand the clear teaching of Holy Scripture far better than liberal white people in the United States.

  266. To clarify, are you asserting that Jesus is the only leader of the church?

  267. Actually, Holy Scripture clearly affirms that homosexual practice is incompatible with Christian teaching regarding human sexuality. And all of Christianity has affirmed that right up into our present day. It is only in very recent decades that homosexuality has been seen by some as permissible. I’m grateful for our African brothers and sisters in the faith who are demonstrating authentic Christian faith to pro-homosexual white people in America.

  268. Only if God said it. Isaiah chapter 40 is enough for me to feel insignificant enough not to question what God says. I do not know
    how others’ gauge their relationship with God.

  269. One of the problems the Episcopal Church ran into was that typically the parishes own the property, not the diocese. You’re thinking of the Catholic approach.

    They attempted to remedy that with the Dennis Canon with mixed results.

    Colonial parishes with a history of ownership prior to the formation of TEC got away scott-free, as did parishes who exited prior to the Dennis Canon in some states.

    There is still ongoing litigation.

  270. There is a difference between a “status” or a “condition” and an “identity.”

  271. Au contraire!!!! I get called out all the time for telling the truth, but that still doesn’t change the truth….

  272. Only if they “practice what they preach.”
    Otherwise, the “preaching” is just a smokescreen for active disobedience.

  273. Trust me on this – no Christian wants to exclude gay Christians from Christ’s Table. Love the person, hate the sin. All Christians are sinners saved by grace. Grace is available to all. It is the appearance of condoning the sin that weighs heavily on church leaders.

  274. They listened, as it was read to them by a uncommon man.

  275. As long as they include in the lens of Christ, the Christ in Revelation who judges. Christ was not some syrupy guy who
    told people what they wanted to hear. He was warning people what God expects of them. It got Him killed…..

  276. Even if I accepted your translation (with its condescending tone), it has nothing to do with the point.

    The issue isn’t whether Jesus loves gays or that gays exist—both points I agree with—the issue is whether an unrepentant person who engages in the sin of same sex intercourse should lead the church. None of your citations are evidence that they should. No unrepentant sinner of ANY sin should lead the church.

    For the record, I concede that the church over-emphasized homosexual sex for decades if not centuries, as if it’s a greater sin than others. It’s not. But anyone who chooses not to repent has chosen sin over God. That person cannot be given the responsibility of leading others to God, as they have prioritized sin over God. But they are loved by God and should be welcome to attend the church.

  277. Ah, are you inferring that the “less developed world” have no ability to think for themselves?

  278. Christ taught against the sin in the book of Leviticus, with penalties prescribed elsewhere.

  279. Matthew: 19 * 4-6 The words of Jesus are clear to me as relates to marriage. And again referring back to God’s word in Genesis.
    And the conference had nothing to do or to say about gay Christians being excluded from worship.

  280. So, you are alluding that the church is already apostate?

  281. The accepted translation of arsenkoitai is “men bedding men”

  282. The scripture is quite clear on homosexuality

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11English Standard Version (ESV)

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  283. He blesses them regularly with the fact that homosexuality is a sin.

  284. Yes you are right on both points.
    By “self”, I was referring to the ego or id or whatever some other people call that particular part of each of us that contains the will, or self-will.
    The part that always rebels against God.
    That’s the part that we strive to kill (on a daily basis).
    Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

  285. Actually, my childhood indoctrination was approximately 2/3 Presbyterian (USA) and 1/3 Assembly of God. The AoG part started when I was about 13 because my mother converted to it after being raised in a “mainstream” church. And then my parents divorced.

    I first realized I was only sexually attracted to boys at about age 13, and fortunately in those days (the late 1950’s) the churches didn’t screech about homosexuality, and I was completely closeted – as the vast majority of gay people were in those days.

    Fortunately, when I was in my mid-20’s I began to question everything about religion, and gradually came to the conclusion that it was all the truth TRUTH (Truly Repugnant and Untenable Theological Hogwash).

    And then my life got even better . . . and now I’m in the 38th year with my wonderful husband and personal savior.

  286. This is how we know you are blind: because you believe the absurd notion that the ethics of ancient desert locked middle-eastern tribe’s people are the motive force behind the Ten Commandments.

  287. If I sound condescending, it’s because I’ve been condemned for feeling the way I do for most of my 60 years on this earth. People who are blessed to be in the mainstream look down on me, a social minority, and condemn me for not being like them. Everyone including Moses, Peter, and Paul all seem willing to claim the gay woman I am, the love I feel for my wife, is somehow, and abomination; a claim I reject, but one you seem willing to promulgate.

    Do you know how many LGBTQ kids have lost hope under the duress you and people like you place them. Do you know what it’s like to pray to God to make you straight, because we are told that “God can fix us if we pray… properly,” only to remain the gay person you were born? All you want is to find that special person, just like you did, fall in love, and start a family, only to be called disgusting and vile; unworthy of God’s mercy. Do you know what it’s like to decide that you no longer want or deserve the life God gave you because you’ve been told that life is disgusting and fraught with sin? Have you stood on the precipice of suicide because you believe those hateful words, and that you don’t deserve life because of what you are? “Live alone and celibate you say. Yeah. YOU try that and tell me how it works out.

    I know those who tried. They (not surprisingly) had moments of failure. That failure brought them AIDS. They’re gone now. It was agonizing for them. Had they not been told this, perhaps they would have found someone and settled down into a nice monogamous relationship. Perhaps they would be alive today. Some of us have survived the self hate. Some of us haven’t. If I seem condescending, I have reasons. I still mourn their loss. They were wonderful people. I lay their deaths at your feet.

    You and people like you claim we are less that, in the face of Jesus, the Son of God, the Word that became flesh, who never condemned gay people. There were gay people in His day, and He never spoke a word against us. By my reading, He understood that we are born the way we are, and cautioned that being gay would be a difficult thing. He supported a same-sex relationship by (by my reading and understanding) healing the Centurion’s lover. He condemned a lot of things, including the judgment laid upon us. The judgement YOU lay upon us.

    Before you tell me to “get help,” I have. I’m better now. I’m a working professional, a well regarded business owner. I’m happily married with two healthy, productive grown children. I no longer keep it in. Now I am willing to tell you just how evil your words are. You will know a tree by its fruit Jesus said. The fruit of your words are death and misery among my people. And you accuse me of being condescending.

  288. “How many people are going to read your last sentence as ‘killing YOUR self’?”

    As many as are unable to distinguish between “the” and “your.”

  289. There’s no need to bring it up, much less keep it up. There are many ways to sin. Clinging to homosexual behavior is only one of them

  290. She’s regurgitating Boswell, who made the same bogus claim.

  291. BO called them the “uncivilized world,” but it’s kind of the same thing. 😉

  292. Yep. And the biggest idol of all is Self — and it never goes away.


    7 seems to be the numbers on average, of homosexuals in various populations, according to “Demographics of sexual orientation” and “LGBT demographics of the United States” by Wikipedia’s cited sources:

    Brazil 2013 = 7%
    Ireland 2006 = 7.1%
    Italy 2011 = 6.7%
    Japan 2012 = 7.6%
    Mexico 2017 = 6%
    Spain 2017 = 6%
    UK 2017 = 7%
    USA 2017 = 7%

  294. That certainly would be convenient for you. If I just shut up and went away so you didn’t have to think about it anymore.

    How about this instead.

    Why don’t you leave?

  295. Jesus is the logos (“word”) of God – the organizing force and determining pattern of the whole creation. The bible contains the “words” of God, if you like. Clear now?

  296. You are projecting upon me the sin of pride that many others committed against you. I hear your pain. You didn’t and don’t deserve it. But I didn’t do the things you are projecting on me. And I reject your attempt to do so. In no way are you less human or less loved by God than anyone else.

    I have family that are gay and married. I have family that are conservative Christians too who believe same sex intercourse is a sin. When they get together, do you know what they do? Hug and say I missed you. They respect each other’s beliefs and ways of life despite disagreeing. I didn’t say any of the many wrongful things that you accuse me of saying that others clearly did.

    Despite that, churches (and any org for that matter) have the right to believe what they want and have lead them who they want. It is not hateful for believing something is wrong or a sin, but it is wrong for someone to compel or shame another into abiding by what they believe, as has clearly been done to you.

    I thought I was clear with my points. God loves you. And how you choose to live your life is your choice and yours alone. God also believes some actions are sin, among them some of mine. God also doesn’t want the unrepentant to lead the church, regardless of the sin that a person is not repenting from. But all are welcome to his church. The Bible seems clear on those points.

  297. Homosexuals can be born-again, but only when they repent from their immorality because of God’s grace compels them to. Until they are born again they cannot inherit the Kingdom…

  298. But please please not the Canadian singer Leonard Cohen’s version of Hallelujah

  299. Sounds like we’re about the same age. I decided in my teens (1959+) that my feelings were (just that) not something I needed to share with others, that God and I would work it out. And we did. I stood and still stand on his word. In early childhood I memorized Jesus’ words ‘…and you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.” It did indeed! I never told my parents (my younger brother committed suicide at 20 from unwanted attraction). After a brief college experience, I made a decision that I wasn’t going to live that lifestyle. After college, as our relationship got serious, I told my future wife, because I would not start a marriage with such a secret. She married me and we have 2 grown children and 2 grandchildren. At the prompting of the Holy Spirit about 4 years ago, I sat my 2 children down and told them, because I wanted them to hear it from me, and because the Spirit was calling me to speak out publicly. Richard, I believe Satan did the same with you as Adam and Eve when he got them to doubt God’s word (Did God really say that?). There is only one savior – Jesus. I pray that you will re-think your decision, because it has eternal consequences. As I tell atheists, if you’re right and there is no God then death is simply our end. But if you’re wrong and I’m right, then you’re facing eternal torment. I don’t wish that for you.

  300. 7% = “marginalized” ?!

    7% = minority !! That’s all that number indicates.

  301. You were “locked” beneath the “desert” for how long now? UNTIL YESTERDAY?!

  302. To clarify, are you asserting that Jesus is the only church leader or something else?

  303. I’ll say as the person previously stated that that is somewhat demeaning. Either you assuming that Africans are ignorant or stupid . They need to counseled on how to do better because their agency should be compromised.

    While I may disagree with some of the laws that penalize same sex relationships and other that do much worse, attitudes in Africa are not simply a result of colonialism. It is a incorrect to reduce attitudes to Christian missionaries when there is no proof that each of the 5000+ cultures in Africa accepted same sex relationships and queer identities. To date I’ve only seen perhaps 7-8 cultures where it was celebrated or tolerated. Africa contain a multitude of languages, cultures, and beliefs.

    For example the same way there are still cultures (muslim, christian, or indigenous belief affiliated) that practice female circumcision there are cultures that if you removed Christianity today and British penal laws would still not react to same sex relationships or practices favorably.

    Instead of blaming colonialism and taking away the agency of Africans (the same way the church may have done to the lgbt community at times) give these cultures time to change in their own way. No two cultures/societies on earth are the same and culture is dynamic (not static), so give them time to adapt and change to new (or maybe old) realities. If you are so inclined support lgbt activists on the ground instead of demeaning the cultures that they are still a part of.

  304. Perhaps but Jesus talks about marriage in Matthew. I post an amended response I wrote to Elagabalus on another article.

    Matthew 19:4-6 (NIV), “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    While this may pertain to divorce, what this tells me is that (a) Jesus believed that there were two genders and (b) Because of that he states that regarding marriage he believed that it was between a man and a woman.

    Jesus never stated anything explicit about homosexuality nor do I believe that being gay, bi, or transgender means you are a flawed creation or an abomination. Essentially not a sin. However I do believe that if you happen to be attracted to someone of the same sex and act on those feelings that that would be a sin. The same way that people who have premarital sex are committing sin, those who get divorced, and those who masturbate either looking at porn or just fantasize about someone to whom you’re not married. Why am I not mentioning sins listed in Leviticus/Numbers you may ask – I’ll talk about that below.

    He also says in Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV), “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Essentially he is looking at the Ten Commandments and condensing them into two commandments. So (a) because I’m not Jewish, (b) because Jesus came with a new covenant, (c) because Jesus also said that he didn’t come to abolish the old new but fulfill it, leads me to only follow the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament as well as what Jesus prescribed we do which is LOVE. Love G-D and Love all our brothers and sisters.

    Scripture referencing point c. Matthew 5:17-20, 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    For me Jesus is the Messiah and whom I follow as a Christian so regardless of what the culture may have been like during the New Testament, he was speaking truth. That’s really one of two questions for me 1) If culturally he was speaking to a different context or understanding then how would he state his beliefs now? And was what he was saying back then not truth? 2) Can anyone try to explain how what is said in Matthew isn’t relevant? I understand that the text may have been mistranslated or perhaps the author may have erred. However it is what we currently unless someone finds the scroll written in Aramaic. Additionally, if one disregards Jesus’ words because of context then what of commandments in the New Testament should be disregarded?

    *Notice I didn’t mention Paul. I admire his devotion even though I don’t agree with a lot of what he said and he is not the son of G-D. Therefore I try to center my life on what Jesus prescribed.

  305. Please let me know why you think it is relevant or important that Christians hold the “court of public opinion” in the center of their hearts.
    Jesus didn’t win in the court of public opinion and neither will we.
    And I do not believe that homosexuality alone will lead to the downfall of civilization, and change is not necessarily progress or improvement.

  306. So homosexuality is not permissible, but pedophile priests are welcome? hmmm Seems to me, Christianity has lost it’s way.

  307. So slavery is okay?
    Stoning others?
    I also notice the Bible says nothing about Priests who prey on Children, so I am going to guess that’s good too (after all it’s not a sin in your Bible)

  308. Oh… so all infertile Hetero couples are “out”, huh?


  309. Yes – you can replace the word homosexuals with all sinners (which includes all who were born on this earth after Adam’s disobedience) until we admit our sin and ask forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Knowing about Jesus Christ and having Him reside in our hearts are two different things. It is making Jesus Christ Lord and Savior that results in forgiveness of sins and gives us the desire to understand God’s Word through the Holy Spirit.

  310. If it were, it would still not make homosexuality an unsin

  311. I know repeatedly posting the *exact same* comment on the channel that I most frequent would get them deleted or the user banned temporarily for spamming.

  312. Why should they be? Per scripture, God is eminently capable of getting babies out of infertile couples.

  313. Being fanatically in love with Christ can happen to adults, too. When we realize who He is and what He did to secure our redemption, then of course we sound like fanatics!!!

  314. I read the whole article. Can you quote the part where one of those three or even Tony said that one of Trumps sinful activities was not sinful?

    A “mulligan” (defined as a “second chance” by the dictionaries I checked on the web) is hardly the same as stating something sinful is not a sin.

  315. “unrepentant person who engages in the sin of same sex intercourse”
    Your words Adam
    “they have prioritized sin over God”
    Your words again.
    “That person cannot be given the responsibility of leading others to God”
    Again your words. And they are painful.
    Sinful, less than, not worthy. All words to punish gay people for simply being who they are, wanting to be in a loving relationship, and somehow get through life just like you. No one has the right to hurt another, especially in the name of God.

    You’re welcome to walk away from your words. I wish you would.

  316. You are openly lying to both me and yourself by selectively excerpting what I said and twisting it to justify your perception that I think you’re less than human–which I directly said the opposite of.

    1a) You claimed I said: “unrepentant person who engages in the sin of same sex intercourse”

    1b) I actually was just identifying what the UMC’s issue (1 of 2 that I’m aware of at least) was to show your points were off topic: “The issue isn’t whether Jesus loves gays or that gays exist—both points I agree with—the issue is whether an unrepentant person who engages in the sin of same sex intercourse should lead the church.”

    2a) You claimed I said: “they have prioritized sin over God”

    2b) I actually said: “For the record, I concede that the church over-emphasized homosexual sex for decades if not centuries, as if it’s a greater sin than others. It’s not. But anyone who chooses not to repent has chosen sin over God. That person cannot be given the responsibility of leading others to God, as they have prioritized sin over God. But they are loved by God and should be welcome to attend the church.”

    – My language clearly was not treating homosexuals as any less than any other form of sinner (which all of us are) that chooses not to repent.

    3a) You claimed I said: “That person cannot be given the responsibility of leading others to God”

    3b) I actually said: “But anyone who chooses not to repent has chosen sin over God. That person cannot be given the responsibility of leading others to God, as they have prioritized sin over God. But they are loved by God and should be welcome to attend the church.”

    That is blatantly dishonest excerpting to justify your resentment and pain. I didn’t cause that. You did that to yourself.

    Then you took it a step further and inserted an intent that I did not have so that you could further stoke your own anger:
    You said, “Sinful, less than, not worthy. All words to punish gay people for simply being who they are, wanting to be in a loving relationship, and somehow get through life just like you. ”

    I never said less than or not worthy. You attempted to insert those words into my mouth. I repeatedly said the exact opposite and further stated that ALL non-repentant sinners should not be allowed to lead the church.

    It is not civil or honest discourse to intentionally lie about what I just PROVABLY said. You are lying to both me and yourself in order to stoke your own pain and feed your own resentment.

    The bible says what it says. I can’t help what’s written there. You’re welcome to start a church that picks and chooses from the bible. It’s America. Have at it. And I will stand next to you to defend you against anyone who would bully or make you feel less than human and or as anything other than an equal child of God.

    But you are not welcome to bully others into giving up their beliefs. Your dishonest excerpts of what I said especially coupled with an attempt to make me disown what I have observed of Christian beliefs (“You’re welcome to walk away from your words. I wish you would.”) is clearly an attempt to intimidate me through guilt and shame. I’m open to reason, not intimidation.

    You’ve proven yourself to be dishonest. Now I question how many other things you’ve been dishonest about. I’m done here.

  317. Okay, so now that the Big Vote is over, I’m relaxing and addressing your posts . Thanks sincerely for your response; most of your allies don’t even TRY to step up. I’m not even going to worry about how long my post is, nor even who reads it or not. I’m just posting.

    Your first sentence there, with its phrase “only 6 passages in the Bible”, reminds me of what somebody once said. “How many times does God have to say NO to something in the Bible, with no exceptions at all, before humans figure out that He really means it?”

    Again, you say “only 6 passages in the Bible.” But there’s at least 8 passages that give you a clear red flag on homosexual behavior. They are:

    Gen. 2:23-24 (God’s design for marriage and sexuality is exclusively gender-complementarian),

    Gen 19:5 (Sodom’s gay guys go one gig too far),

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 (Sodom had multiple sins but that final gig was God’s Last Straw)

    Matt. 11:24 (Jesus affirms that Sodom’s destruction was actual history, not a penny less)

    Matt. 19:4-5 (Jesus affirms 100% that God’s explicit design for marriage is exclusively gender-complementarian)

    Rom. 1:26-27 (All kinds of Not-Natural, Messed-Up gigs & outcomes in there, both gay men and lesbians. By the way, THIS text, refutes any fake claim that the Bible didn’t mention homosexuality till the 1940’s. Clearly both male and female homosexuality is being discussed here in Romams. By the way, the Greek text of the next passage, 1 Cor 6, especially that good ole “Malakoi” and “Arsenokoites”, likewise make clear that the Bible has **always** mentioned homosexual behavior.)

    1 Cor. 6:9-11 (Gay stuff is capable of blocking you from getting into the kingdom of heaven, and you don’t want THAT outcome. But Jesus can clean it off of you, heal you, free you just as much as He did for the Corinthians. Jesus gives you power to be Ex-Gay. You can even drop the “gay self-identity” component — Jesus will give you a brand new clean **self identity** in Him, in 2 Cor. 5:17)

    1 Tim. 1:9-10 (Notice what kinda things homosexual behavior is compared to. And notice verse 11. Is homosexuality even compatible with the Gospel itself? Hmm?)

    Just one more thing. According to National Public Radio, ONLY 54 VOTES stopped the Methodists from killing themselves today. Otherwise they would be Dead Meato right now. THAT is why it is important for Christians to agree with, support, and don’t back down from their Bibles.

  318. “Listen Adam, I get that you want to hate gay people.”

    The only thing you “get” is pulled from your own head. His presumed angry rejection of homosexuals is in fact a projection of your own angry rejection of his point of view.

    If your ultimate riposte is to declare “Everything you say is wrong because your motives are corrupt,” it’s a claim of psychic powers, or a simple assertion that “I understand you better than you do” – either of which is plainly a venture into absurdity

  319. Now look at this. This is another “Gay Talking Point” here. It’s not even accurate, but Gay Goliath has finally figured out that a lotta Christians don’t even read their own Bibles. Christians too busy to read God’s Word, they just letting their Bible sit there in the corner, gathering dust next to the Dog Food and the Dog Poo. Practically Defenseless, baby!!

    Now let’s get real. This Sodom gig, mentioned from Genesis to Jesus, is **absolutely** about some gay guys, homosexuals, whatever label, trying to git themselves some gay sex. In fact, a whole TOWNFUL of gay guys trying to get free goodies. Here, look at THEIR OWN words, Gen. 19:4-5.

    4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom, both young and old, surrounded the house.

    5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

    See that? They want gay sex, gay pleasure. They want it immediately. Nobody’s keeping score for cultural humiliation points. They just want plain old WOO-WOO WITH THE WEE-WEE!!

    So do not let these gay activists lie to you readers. What you yourself are reading here, is the real truth. Actual History!!

    In Ezekiel 16:49, God talks about Sodom’s other sins — arrogance, despising the poor. But in the very next verse, verse 50, God says they then committed ABOMINATION in front of Him — and THAT’s the Last Straw after which, God simply says grimly, “I took them all away as I saw fit.”

    Think about it. And remember, only 54 more votes and the Gay Activists would have won today’s Methodist vote. Only 54 little votes. Right in front of God.

  320. Jesus is the Head of His Church.
    Hope that’s clear enough.

  321. It’s not. I asked if you were asserting if Jesus is the ONLY head of the church. Your statement is still ambiguous. Is he or not?

  322. How many HEADS of His church do *you* think there are? I’ve answered your question — please answer mine.

  323. No you didn’t. You avoided it. Only or not? The fact that you’re avoiding it implies an intent to purposely be ambiguous.

  324. Look, if your trying to trust my words and stack with ad hominem, find another player — I don’t have time for games.

    Last Time: Jesus Christ alone is the HEAD of HIS church. ONE HEAD. ONE LORD. ONE GOD.

    If you think a human being other than Christ Himself gets to be HEAD, then I have no more words.


  325. Conservative Christians have always been easy marks for supporting
    policies which attack the economic interests of those who work for a
    living.” Have you been living under a rock and haven’t heard about the greatly improved economic growth and lowest unemployment rates in decades and decreased need for food stamps. Liberals pander to minorities by telling them that they are victims and all their problems are someone else’s fault. Conservatives actually deliver the jobs and opportunities that liberals promise.

  326. And if you do not mean “head” (your word) to be fully synonymous with “leader” (my original word) say so.

  327. If “head” means ultimate leader, of course I agree that Jesus is the head of the Christian Church.

    But you argued against me for saying that “Jesus wasn’t the only original church leader.” And that’s also true.

  328. See Shawnie5’s response below. Great question, and totally spot-on.

    Slicey’s slant is that the word “To’evah” (abomination) ain’t so bad after all, when it comes to homosexual behavior. American athletes wear their Stars & Stripes at the Olympics, while the Canadian athletes wear their Maple Leaf. It’s just a “cultural boundary marker”, that’s all, with no heavy “moral ethical value” attached to it. That’s what Slicey is saying about To’evah.

    But that’s obviously not how the Bible employs the word To’evah. For example, in Leviticus 20:13, if you did a homosexual act as a member of OT Israel under the Mosaic Law , you’ve done a To’evah AND the specified-by-God-Himself penalty for that specific To’evah, is that you both receive the ***death penalty.*** So To’evah ain’t just some minor low-octane cultural marker to merely show folks that you are a Jew instead of a Canaanite.

  329. These “discussions” always come down to the same lie that implies that if you do not accept homosexuality as morally right and good then you must hate homosexuals. Invariably, this is followed by the “Jesus loves people just the way they are.” Using myself as an example, I do not hate alcoholics but I DO detest alcoholism. The alcoholic is a victim of the vice of alcoholism and as drunkeness is sin, as any serious student of the Scriptures will agree, our Lord loves the alcoholic but desires to persuade him to repent of his sin, a ministry of reconciliation now the duty of every believer.. It is in no way correct to determine that if one hates homosexuality he must therefore hate homosexuals. Our Lord condemns homosexuality in both the Old and New Testaments and just as He also condemned hypocrisy in no uncertain terms, He loved the persecuter of the early church, Saul of Tarsus, so much that He personally met him on the road to Damascus and led him to faith in Himself. Indeed, there are more than a few who have failed to recognize that a sin does not define the sinner. After all, Christ came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance, a condition we all have a share in. The refrain, “Judge not that ye be not judged,” is an oft repeated yet misunderstood principle. The condemnation of any person is not the role of a believer, but those acts, attitudes, and practices known as sin are indeed to be identified and condemned by all believers. At the risk of being repetitious I repeat, the sin ought to be judged by the believer, but not the person commiting the sin. For if the believer hates the sinner, what hope is there of ever leading him to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? Conversely, if sin itself is not judged and condemned, why would anyone wish to repent of it and acknowledge Christ as LORD and Saviour? True it is that our Lord loves each and every person born on this earth He created, but, being a JUST God He will not take to Himself one who simply refuses to give up his sin. In Matthew 7 Christ declares that in the Day, many will come and say, “Lord, Lord. Have we not cast out devils in Your name? Have we not healed in Your name and done many wonderful works?” Jesus says that He will have to reply, “I never knew you. Depart from Me ye workers of iniquity.” Homosexuality is a sin not much different from any other sin and ALL sin must be repented of. Yes, God loves each person so much that He allowed the sacrifice of His own Son. But He cannot and will not accept an unrepentant sinner.

  330. Anything that will hasten the demise of Christianity is welcome.

  331. Otto, it’s not his viewpoint that makes me angry, but that he does so in the name of God. A gay person is gay because God made them gay. The love they have for their family was put there by God and is a reflection of God’s love. Who are you to call it evil? If a person has been given the gift of the Gospel by God, who are you to silence that voice? God gave that gay person a voice in order that it be heard; not silenced by arrogant exclusion. Man has decided that being gay is evil, disordered and sinful. These words have never come from God, but from the lips of man.

  332. You are giving me canned fiction.

    Several months since Trump took credit for the straight line of economic upturn from his predecessor things have gone south very badly. Trump’s economic policies are tanking the economy. Wages have declined. Those tax breaks to the wealthy are very noticable tax burdens on all those who work for a living. Unnecessary trade wars have harmed various production sectors.

    “Liberals pander to minorities by telling them that they are victims and all their problems are someone else’s fault. ”

    The “Democrat Plantation” argument is one of the most bigoted ones you guys trot out. Somehow minorities are too stupid to see things for themselves and vote democrat according to you. Minorities run for cover to the Democrat party because Republicans embrace bigots of all stripes. They run on platforms of discrimination and deliberately harm the interests of those seeking living wages and middle class existence.

    You are full of it.

  333. I’ve rarely ever encountered a prog of any kind who could debate without telling his interlocutor what he “really” thinks/means.

  334. The spiritual and moral health of the nation concerns me, which means the spiritual and moral health of at least the large sects concerns me even if I ultimately have no say in their decisions (nor should have).

  335. Only because most of the Episcopal churches were foolish enough to agree to the Dennis canon.
    Which, we see now, was truly a deal with the Devil.

  336. And, it would seem, In the opinions of most of the Methodist conference attenders. They witnessed the lies and deceptions by the liberals in advancing their agenda in the Methodist conference, the bait-and-switch, the broken promises, and they saw the abuse, greed and raw power grab in the Episcopal Church… and decided the best thing they could do was to try to purge the disease out of the conference. I hope they do, and I hope the liberals that threatened to leave actually do. (Which, if they did, would be one of the rare times the many of them told the truth.)
    No one believes the leftie lies anymore.
    …. But keep telling me the problem isn’t their lies, tell me that the problem is “my opinion.”
    I’m sure there are a few gullible people around that believe that.

  337. Hey, keep dividing… It’s what Protestants do best.

  338. “Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against—or two in favor and three against.

    “Father will be divided against son, and son against father; mother against daughter
    and daughter against mother…”

  339. Calling a Eunich gay is a stretch. The 2nd half of 12 saying that some choose it to serve the kingdom suggests that he is merely saying some are born with the gift of not marrying (sexless life) while others choose to do so through an act of will so they may serve the kingdom in a completely dedicated manner.

  340. In the Matthew reference, the actual Aramaic spoke by Jesus was “m’haynma” which translates literally to “trusted one.” Jesus identified three such persons: Those who have renounced physical relationships (i.e. priests), those madem’haynma by other men (actual eunuchs), and those m’haynma from birth (gay men).

    When one says that the person is “trusted,” that’s not to say that they’re sexless. Presumably the eunuch and priest are, but a gay man does not need to be sexless to be trusted around women. The discussion was about taking a wife, and those individuals who would likely not take one.

  341. Obviously facts don’t matter to you. You are so brain dead that all you have is the same old liberal talking points that have no relationship to reality. Have a good day, there in your mama’s basement.

  342. Said the person who is quoting garbage which hasn’t been remotely true for over a year. Which was only half true when originally said by our Liar in Chief. You are left with personal attacks because you have nothing to support yourself. Oh well. I guess you have to do something to earn your vodka and black bread ration at the gulag.

  343. Facts never had a part in your spiel

    Unemployment Went Down – Because More People Left The Workforce

    Trump takes credit for the work of his predecessor

    Trade Wars Tanking the economy

    2018 Tax Plan harming working people, especially middle class with nothing to show for it

    The abject failure of 40 years of Conservative economic policies

    More people are without healthcare insurance than under the previous administration

  344. They don’t uphold Catholic Christianity (or Coptic Christianity) either — what’s your point?

  345. The “approved” reading list of moldy old scrolls never actually became a single-volume book until about 500 years later. It was not until the printing press was invented that Bibles became available to the public, and then the RCC was still burning people at the stake for the “crime” of having any part of the Bible in written form. The Bible was “too sacred” for ordinary people to have; meaning that if people could read for themselves they might question the BS that they were told in church.

  346. Call this, “JD’s Ashiest Theory of Hate”, that was published “7 hours ago”, “3 months ago”, “4 months ago” and “5 months ago”:

    “Hate is a Christian thing … [because Christians] believe in [a] particular mythology. … I don’t hate, … I simply dont believe in [their] particular mythology.

    “Hate is a Christian thing … [because what they do is] believe in … mythology. … I don’t hate. I simply don’t believe in [their] mythology.

    “Hate is a Christian thing … [because Christians don’t] feel sadness for [being] trapped in paranoid mythologies. … I don’t hate [because] I do feel sadness for those trapped in paranoid mythologies.

    “Hate is a Christian thing … [because Christians] are so trapped by their own beliefs … I don’t hate [because I’m not] trapped by their own beliefs …

    “Hate is a Christian thing … [because for Christians it’s not] hard to hate something that’s a fairy tale … I have no hatred [because] it’s hard to hate something that’s a fairy tale.

    “Hate is a Christian thing … [because don’t Christians] hate Santa Claus? Jack Frost? The Easter Bunny? … Do [I] hate Santa Claus? Jack Frost? The Easter Bunny? No, of course not, that would be silly.”

    “Hate is a Christian thing … It’s akin to [Christians] being angry with Santa Claus … Again, I don’t hate. I simply … [am not] angry with Santa Claus which is ridiculously silly.”

  347. I always had you pegged for an XBOX guy with a 5 screen set-up in your parents basement…

  348. We are going to have to agree to disagree. In the context of the question in v 12 of whether it is better to not marry vs. Divorce it makes no sense that Jesus would say this as a simple point of conversation. I doubt seriously his disciples would not have reacted strongly.

    Not only that, his tacit approval or neutrality would directly contradict Paul later in the NT.

  349. I am absolutely certain you have to keep trolling constantly in order to earn your vodka and black bread ration for the week and avoid turnip harvesting duties at the gulag.

  350. Neither. When would I have time to play when I am constantly typing here?

  351. True. That’s why you have five screens.
    3 for gaming,
    1 for writing your screeds and annoying people, and
    1 for your unmentionable activities.

  352. Except, except … oops, IN THE U.S.

    “Evangelicals Once Again Dominate List of Top-growing Large UM Congregations”, Juicy Ecumenism”, November 20, 2018.

    “Some U.S. Christian Groups May be Declining, But Not Evangelicals”, Facts and Trends, March 22, 2018.

    “‘Mainline’ churches are emptying. The political effects could be huge”, Vox, July 14, 2017. Note: “[NOT ‘Evangelical’] churches are emptying”!]

    “Liberal churches are dying. But conservative churches are thriving”, Washington Post, January 4, 2017.

    “Examining the Sources of Conservative Church Growth: Where Are the New Evangelical Movements Getting Their Numbers?”, Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Volume 36, Number 1, March 1997, pages 71-80.

  353. Protestants decline, more have no religion in a sharply shifting religious landscape
    Survey Predicts Huge Amount of Non-Religious Americans by 2035
    I hope you are too old to see the demise of Christianity. I have 60 to 70 years to see the death of Christianity.

  354. Hon, for folks like you and Widuran anyone who doesn’t believe in your mythology you view as full of hate.

    You couldn’t be more wrong.

  355. I call this, The Good News for Ashiests & Eggnogshticks According to:

    (1) “Sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera’s review [in 2017]”: “Atheists and agnostics [make up] 7% of the world’s population”! HA-HA.

    (2) “The 2015 Pew Religious Landscape survey”: “Of the American population … atheists made up 3.1%”! HA-HA.

    (3) “The World Factbook [of 2013]”: “Non-religious people [in the U.S.] make up 9.66%, while one fifth of them are atheists”! HA-HA.

    (4) “The Encyclopædia Britannica [2013]”: “2% of the world’s population self-identify as atheists and the average annual global change for atheism from 2000 to 2010 was −0.17%”! HA-HA.

    (5) “Pew Research Center’s Religion & Public Life Project [2009]”: “In the United States, only 5% of the population did not have a belief in a god and out of that small group only 24% self-identified as ‘atheist'”! HA-HA.

    (6) “A 2004 survey by the BBC in 10 countries”: “8% of the respondents … consider themselves to be ‘atheists'”! HA-HA.

    (7) “The World Factbook [2004]”: “Of the world’s population … about 2.4% are atheists”! HA-HA.

  356. You seem worked up over homosexuality. Paul and Moses were too (many suggest Peter was too, but there is no real evidence of it that I’ve seen) Jesus simply wasn’t. In all of his ministry, He condemned many things (mostly hypocrisy), but never homosexuality. He in fact served a gay relationship by healing the Centurion’s pais. There are a number of issues where Jesus departed from old Mosaic law (Jesus taught us that sin comes from the heart and not from those things external to us such as food or washing your hands), and where Peter and Paul departed from Jesus. All three treated women as second class; not worthy of a position of authority. Jesus elevated Mary Magdaline to such a position (“made her male” as recounted in Thomas), and affirmed it by making her the Apostle to the Apostles in sharing the good news of His resurrection. Peter and Paul ignored Jesus’s teaching on women. While Peter at least allowed female priests in his ministry (i.e. Phoebe), Paul had none of that. With their treatment of women (and their departure from how Jesus ran his ministry), why should it surprise you that Paul at least would treat gay people differently than Jesus did? The only people who say homosexuality, even practicing homosexuality (within the confines of a monogamous relationship as in the case of the Centurion) were Moses and Paul.

    Now, as for “agreeing to disagree,” I’ll not agree if agreeing hurts or discriminates against LGBTQ people in any way.

  357. You write 1000 words and I am the one that is “worked up”?

    All I can say is that your stance contradicts the rest of the NEW testament (not to mention the OT)

    It is my thought that Jesus would have loved and embraced a gay person just as he did the adulteress. (and may have with the centurian’s pais as you say) But while shaming and admonishing the mob that was to stone her he also, after assuring him of his love also instructed her to “go and sin no more”

    I do not get to choose what part of scripture to ignore. Either it is the word of God or it is not.

  358. Who would you rather contradict, the word of man, or the Word made Flesh? I’m more than willing to question the words of Moses, Peter, Paul, or any of the prophets. I am loath to question the words of Jesus.

    No matter. I’m a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. We accept LGBTQ people and consider them a reflection of God’s glory. We will welcome your castoffs into our family with open arms and open hearts.

  359. Hear me, I believe all churches should accept anyone and everyone as we are all broken and none are righteous before God. The question is should a gay person be accepted as clergy. That is what the UMC decided this week.

  360. Why would anyone want to be your token? We at ELCA will be looking forward to welcoming your cast offs into both our families and ministries with open arms.

  361. Obviously we are at an impasse. I sincerely wish blessings for you moving ahead.

  362. I have no impass brother. You may perhaps, of your own devising. Good luck.

  363. “I don’t hate Santa Claus” should be your Registered Trademark, yes?

  364. So, you think… That the *entire* city… EVERY man, both young AND old as the scripture says… ALL of the men, every last one of them in the city… Was gay…

    *shakes head slowly*

  365. But “gay … I’m not”, you “admit[ted] when you wrote as “JD … 4 months ago … 6 months ago … 8 months ago … a year ago”. “But I do have an adult intersex and trans kid … I am … very devout in my path … I’ve walked this path my entire life. I want for nothing nor seek no other path. … My path … has … many … concepts and wisdoms. I’ve had many amazing conversations from people from many walks of life. … I can sit down and tell you stories that would curl your hair and leave you in tears. … [But] yes, I am often times rather blunt … to get a point across and even then most times it’s simply dismissed. … The simple and most profound truth is that [I am] loved beyond measure. [I am] the most precious jewel in all creation; past, present or ever will be. [I am] one-of-a-kind, unique and incredibly precious. Therefore the Divine loves [me] beyond measure. The Divine has so much faith, devotion and love for [me], love so profound; that if I could just tap into the tiniest Inkling of that fath, love and devotion that I could literally move mountains.”

  366. Versus what? Revelations? Voices? Burning bushes? There’s not just 10 commandments btw, and George Carlin thoroughly destroyed the validity of how “immutable” the 10 commandments are.

  367. So is Harry Potter. Both characters in a book filled with mythological fairy tales and [some] facts. SOME of Jesus’s ethics were fine, some of them have no place in modern society. The fact that Jesus, the SUPPOSED son of the force responsible for the expansion of universe couldn’t figure out there are no such things as demons/devils, (as per Mark/Luke) goes to show you he clearly isn’t tied to such a potential entity and that his knowledge is a result of the ethics and times in which he supposedly lived as there is nothing Jesus said (because absolutely NONE of the bible was actually written by him) that’d couldn’t have been written by any 1st century thinker/philosopher/contemplative.

  368. But “gay … I’m not”, you “admit[ted]” – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

    “But I do have an adult intersex and trans kid”, you “admit[ted]” – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

    But “I am … very devout in my path … [and] walked this path my entire life”, you “admit[ted]” – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

    But “I … tell … stories that would curl [the] hair”, you “admit[ted]” – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

    But “I am … most times … simply dismissed”, you “admit[ted]” – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

    But “the Divine loves [me] beyond measure”, you “admit[ted]” – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

    But “I simply don’t believe … in paranoid mythologies”, you “admit[ted]” – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

    But “it’s hard to hate something that’s a fairy tale”, you “admit[ted]” – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

    But “do [I] hate Santa Claus? Jack Frost? The Easter Bunny?”, you “admit[ted]” to wondering – “so, you do indeed hate gays”?!

  369. It “mean[s]” the sharp exact opposite of what “the ethics of ancient desert locked middle-eastern tribes people [being] somehow the word of god(s)” – “mean[s]”!!!!!!!

  370. *yawn*

    Oh, Im sorry. Were you trying to make a point…?

  371. To all Hornet Stories fans (and you know who you are):

    FYII (For Your Insult to Intelligence):

    “[For the album cover of] TARKUS – ELP (Island, 1971) … artist William Neal reveals how the creation of the legendary armadillo-tank creature almost drove him to distraction … ‘I excel with musical links and I always have. I loved it and that’s my thing. Even at school when we were in art class when we were asked to draw whilst they played Peter And The Wolf. So I do find that, like for so many other people, music does give me pictures. I love that and it’s what I do. … [Keith Emerson, Greg Lake and Carl Palmer] were all delighted and the excitement at that particular time was tangible. We all felt that there was something pretty big going on. It’s extraordinary that something as innocuous as a little drawing turned out to be an album cover. It’s still talked about in an affectionate way and it seems to have, even if people didn’t like the band it seemed to typify an era and I think that is probably what it is.'”

    ERGO: No talk or even mention by Tarkus’ own cover artist of the ElleGeeBeeTease Rainbow Leitmotif.

    HENCE: RAINBOW TARKUS IS AN L.G.B.T. MYTH: Don’t even think about it! And stop with your hijacking of Emerson Lake and Palmer’s progressive rock album cover – starting now!

    Source: Rich Wilson, “Cover Story: ELP – Tarkus: Uncovering the stories behind great prog album artwork”, Prog, February 25, 2015.

  372. So is Priest who prey on children lower on the Sin scale? Or not at all? Is it even a sliding scale? Do you get points?

  373. Christ taught: English Standard Version “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.” 1 Corinthians 6:18

  374. It’s what ‘ Humans ‘ do best. In all

  375. What happened to GOD the Father?
    The One Who sent Christ Jesus here in the first place.

  376. DMS, do you believe in the Holy Trinity? If so, you wouldn’t even be asking that question.

  377. Meaning, that they are heretics and schismatics.

  378. Yes I believe in the Holy Trinity.
    It’s obvious by your answer to Adam you do not.
    God the Father sent Christ Jesus here to earth to carry out God the Fathers will for all of us.
    As Christ Jesus mentioned many times in scripture that I’m here because of the One Who sent Me.
    That’s why Christ Jesus stated
    John 10:25-30.
    The Father GOD and GOD the Son are ONE.
    What the Father thinks the Son does also in all things.

  379. I do believe in the Holy Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One GOD in three persons.
    Read the Nicene Creed once in a while, DMS.

    And as I’ve explained to you already, multiple times, only GOD is the HEAD of the church.

  380. That would the same God/Jesus/HolySpirit that condemns same sex sexual relationships in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 and Romans 1:26-32?

  381. Still waiting for you to quote where GOD tells Abraham and David to not have multiple wives, concubines and slave girls…

  382. I guess you didn’t get that when you spell “Orthodox Christianity “ (with a big “O”), you are referring to the religious denomination, not to orthodox (little “o”) beliefs.

  383. Oh, I got it — I was Russian Orthodox for most of my life.

  384. Meaning if they’re not denominationally “Orthodox” then they’re not authentically Christian? I don’t think that was your intended meaning.

  385. NO, that was *not* my intended meaning. Of course, they are also Christians — but they are not “orthodox” (small o) in Christian practice, since they reject orthodox Christian teaching of the early church fathers and saints, many books of the bible and the sacraments of the church.

  386. “Protestants do not uphold” (big “O”) Orthodox Christianity” was your statement.

    Evidently, you intended to convey that they don’t uphold (little “o”) orthodox beliefs

    But that’s not what you actually said.

  387. I asked you first. Turn your tables with someone else.
    Abraham and David both New Gods laws. They went against His laws.

  388. Hold the (SA) lami! For, hey, wanna know how IN-significant or use-LESS or LAUGH-able 7% is? WATCH THIS:

    (1) “Long-term press bias: Only 7% of journalists voted for George H.W. Bush in 1992”, Washington Times, December 4, 2018.

    (2) “Only 7% of York Central homes will be truly affordable, claims expert”, York Press, October 10, 2018.

    (3) “Gallup: Only 7% of K-12 teachers want to carry guns in the classroom”, MarketWatch, March 24, 2018.

    (4) “Only 7% of People Say They Never Make Their Bed”, The Roz & Mocha Show, Kiss92.5 FM, Rogers Media, March 1, 2018.

    (5) “Only 7% of Organizations Believe Their Leadership Development Programs Are Best in Class According to Harvard Business Publishing State of Leadership Development Survey: Survey Explores the Disconnect between Learning and Development Teams and Their Business Counterparts on the Impact and Effectiveness of Leadership Development Programs”, Harvard Business School Publishing, July 19, 2016.

    (6) “Only 7% think Oscar Pistorius is innocent”, YouGov, March 5, 2014.

  389. God/Jesus created no one lgbtq.
    God/Jesus calls the sexually active lgbtq an abomination unto Him.

  390. So you don’t believe in the Trinity, do you?

  391. Is this the discussion you want to have?

  392. Actually, I asked you first, and you’ve still avoided answering!

    You are laughable if you think they didn’t have sex with as many as they wanted!

    Chapter and verse — QUOTE good over telling them to *not* have all their multiple wives, concubines and slave girls…

  393. So you don’t think God created human beings? Interesting…

    And Jesus never said a single negative thing against any LGBTQ human being. Are you denying that Jesus Christ is GOD, Mr. DMS?

  394. God/Jesus did create human beings. He did not create human beings actions that are detestable to Him. Those human beings did those detestable attributes all on their own.

  395. You’re the one that is laughable that if you actually believe that a Holy,Holy,Holy God would give all of those woman to David or Abraham to commit sin with them.
    Your thought if the very God/Jesus that you believe in is quite deplorable.
    Only damnable man/womankind would have such deplorable thoughts of our Holy God/Jesus.

  396. Certainly not. My original comment was just intended to draw attention to your error of using the big “O” when you intended the little “o” meaning of the word — a passing comment at best. That should have been the end of the discussion right there. But you spent the next several exchanges pointlessly trying to argue you had made no error. As long as we’ve got that straight now, I’m happy to say “Ta-ta.”

  397. Be specific — do you believe in one God, the holy Trinity or not?

  398. Scripture states that we are created in the image and likeness of God/Jesus.
    God/Jesus finds lgb to be an abomination unto Him.
    I can only surmise by scripture that God/Jesus created everyone heterosexual.

  399. So show the scripture where God reprimands Abraham for having not than one wife…

    All you do is insult, never back up what you claim.

  400. Yes, people can remarry, for the cause of infidelity.

  401. Quote Jesus saying a single negative thing about any LGBTQ human being, ever…

    And you still didn’t answer my question directly — did God make you straight or not?

  402. And are ALL divorced Christians that way due to infidelity?

  403. How many times do I have to repeat this.
    Yes. All 3 of Him.

  404. You’re the one that’s insulting to God/Jesus.

    Do you actually believe that our Holy God/Jesus gave those women to Abraham or David to have sexual relations with them?

  405. Of course they’re not.
    But if any clergy officiates a re -marriage for anything else other than infidelity. They will have to answer to God/Jesus for their sin of this act of remarriage.

  406. I never said that. I’ve asked you *repeatedly* to show where GOD reprimanded then for having so many wives!!

  407. Then they are living in adultery, aren’t they — even if remarried.

  408. Then yes, GOD the Son (Jesus )condemned Lgb sexual relations in Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13.

  409. You’re putting words in my mouth.
    I never made the statement that God/Jesus reprimands anyone for plural marriages in the Old Testament.

  410. The one who committed the infidelity is.
    But the one who didn’t isnt.
    The clerk in Kentucky, the one who refused to give marriage licenses to gays.
    Under GOD is she in adulterous sin in her marriage now?

  411. “I have 60 to 70 years to see the death of Christianity.’
    Too young to know better, I reckon.
    And (by odd coincidence) you have exactly the same slot ifs time in which to see your own death.
    So you’d better hope Christianity hangs around until then — it’ll be your only way out.

  412. His point was that the *percentage* (7%) was “useless” –which it is, as a cultural indication or a social influence.

  413. The return of Christ Jesus is less than 60 years from now. If you’re a Christian and He’s your Lord and Savior.
    You’ll be fine…… unless humanity turns you against Him.

  414. It depends, are they Christians?
    Non-Christians wouldn’t care one way or the other.

  415. Yes.
    And Jesus made those statements in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 in scripture.

  416. So, why haven’t you stoned to death anyone who works on the Sabbath?
    Exodus 35:2

  417. Sure you did every time you equivocated and avoided answering the question! You’re quick to condemn gay people but make excuses for polygamy!
    That’s called “Hypocrisy”, DMS…

  418. She had an affair while married, didn’t she?

  419. Why are you trying to speak for him?
    NO, I don’t care if it’s ONE person — they are a *human being* and NOT “insignificant” or “useless”. Period.

  420. We’ve already established that this scenario involves Christians.
    Look at you twist and turn!

  421. Did Jesus say to stone to death your disobedient son?
    Deuteronomy 21:18-21

    Why haven’t you “obeyed” God by stoning your disobedient son or anyone working on the Sabbath?


  422. SA (lami): “7 [% being the numbers on average, of homosexuals in various populations, is] Holy Number [which means] no human being is ‘useless’. [For instance, 7% of journalists voting for George H.W. Bush in 1992, is] Holy Number [which means] no human being is ‘useless’. [7% of York Central homes being truly affordable, is] Holy Number [which means] no human being is ‘useless’. [7% of K-12 teachers wanting to carry guns in the classroom, is] Holy Number [which means] no human being is ‘useless’. [7% of People Saying They Never Make Their Bed, is] Holy Number [which means] no human being is ‘useless’. [7% of Organizations Believing Their Leadership Development Programs Are Best in Class, is] Holy Number [which means] no human being is ‘useless’. [7% thinking Oscar Pistorius is innocent, is] Holy Number [which means] no human being is ‘useless’.”

    HpO: Hold the SA (lami)! Hold the SA (lami)!

  423. Because I agree with his assessment — which you’ve relentlessly missed the point of.

    He did NOT say any ONE was “useless.” He said the FIGURE of 7% was useless to the purpose for which it was brought up.

    If you’re not capable of recognizing a basic conceptual distinction like that (or unwilling to), retreat to your safe-space bubble, where nothing you believe in will be challenged.

  424. I encourage a challenge.

    So far, you haven’t demonstrated one.

  425. I challenged you to recognize the basic conceptual distinction between dissing a living PERSON and dissing the SIGNIFICANCE of an abstract mathematical FIGURE that such a person might THEORETICALLY be a part of. You have so far demonstrated a dedicated unwillingness to even recognize the question.

    So this is your opportunity to respond directly to my directly stated “challenge”: Can you recognize that conceptual distinction… or not?

  426. Then why are YOU disobeying GOD/JESUS by *not* stoning to death people who work on the Sabbath?!

  427. You don’t know when Christ will return. Even Christ Himself said that ONLY the Father knows the day. Claiming to know that time yourself is blasphemy.